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Welcome to Veterans Radio. I am Jim Fausone, I'm the officer of the deck today. The program

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today is going to focus on Afghanistan as we approach the two-year withdrawal from Afghanistan

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after the 20-year war that so many of our veterans participated in now. So we're going

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to bring you programs about being in a remote outpost in Afghanistan. We're talking to Travis

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Harmon who was part of the Pennsylvania National Guard and spent time fighting with the U.S.

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Army in Afghanistan and then we're going to talk to Michael Cook who wrote about the life and death

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at Abigate. Really talking about the struggles of people trying to get out of Afghanistan,

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Afghan nationals as Abigate exploded and life exploded there in Afghanistan. We've talked

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about this issue a little bit in the past back in September of 22. We talked to Major Tom Shrooman

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who wrote a fantastic book called Always Faithful worth listening to that podcast and we've written

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stories on this for Home of Heroes. If you go to homeofheroes.com go to the war on terrorist stories,

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read Air Heroes of Afghanistan invasion. Some pilots and flight nurses received the

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Distinguished Flying Cross or go read the story of Sergeant Julie Brigelow who was an air medic

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again received the Distinguished Flying Cross. So some incredible stories comes out of service in

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Afghanistan and we're going to talk about these stories today. We always want to remind you you

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can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site or at the web veteransradio.org is our news.

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URL veteransradio.org where we're on the web 24-7 you can find a lot of our podcasts there as well.

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We post new ones every Tuesday and before we get started we want to thank our sponsors. First up

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we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council NVBDC.org. It was established

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to certify both service disabled and veteran owned businesses. You'll find out how they can help

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your business by going to NVBDC.org. We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. Legal Help for

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Veterans fights for veterans disability rights all across the nation. You can reach them at 800-693-4800

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or on the web at legalhelpforveterans.com. We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today Travis Harman

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Staff Sergeant in the Army National Guard wrote an interesting story a remote outpost fighting

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with the US Army in Afghanistan but it's more than just his story it's also a bit of his father's

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story. Travis welcome to Veterans Radio. Thank you for having me. Well this is a bit of an unusual

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story and a number of fronts. You weren't the prototypical recruit the Army was looking for I

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think you're a self-described young skater punk at the time so tell us a little bit about your

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background where you grew up in Pennsylvania and this decision about joining the Army. Okay I grew

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up in central Pennsylvania around Williamsport known for the Little League World Series.

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So there's a lot of farming communities around Williamsport and I grew up from one in Yuzvo.

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Basically 9-11 happened my father had joined in the 80s and got out when I was born so I always had a

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family tradition of military service my grandfather was in a few of my uncles were in my brother my

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older brother joined the Air Force when I was around 10 so I had a lot of family influence

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in joining and once 9-11 happened I was I was only in eighth grade but I hoped that one day I would

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be able to go and fight and well my dream came true. Well it was not only yours but talk to us

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about your relationship with your father Dean and and how sort of all those family influences led

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you to say hey I'm gonna enlist. Right so my father joined the Marines in the 80s and like I said that he

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ETS out after I was born he joined the Army National Guard in the early 90s while I was a

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little kid so I grew up seeing this military service and we would watch war movies together

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and that you know made it even more exciting for me so as time grew on I kind of lost interest in it

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but my dad would talk to me at random about then once 9-11 happened he enlisted in the PA National

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Guard again and you know I saw that as my opportunity to kind of we never had a really close relationship

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while I was growing up so that was kind of my way of earning his acceptance by enlisting with him.

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And you then enlisted in the Pennsylvania Army National Guard?

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Correct. It's kind of that's that's a whole different process after 9-11 people who are

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familiar with the Guard pre 9-11 you know it's a different training tempo it's a different op

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tempo as you got in this wasn't the National Guard that your dad was in in the 90s did he

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talk to you about hey this is a whole different op tempo here. Right yeah so he I initially wanted

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to go active duty Army and he talked to me and was like you know maybe you should go PA Guard for a

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little bit it's one week in a month two weeks in the summer if you like it you could go active duty

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if you don't and you just you're stuck with your one week in a month two weeks in the summer but

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like you said the the op tempo was completely different my unit had not they had deployed

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to Germany and I believe it was 04 and then the PA Army Guard second brigade deployed to Ramadi

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Iraq and it was 6 and my father went with them and a lot of the guys from my unit went with them as well

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so um they got back and while I was in basic training and advanced training and once I got home

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within a week's time I got orders to go to Afghanistan. So you did some of your training at

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Fort Benning and Fort Gordon in Georgia a whole lot different than uh Hughesville Pennsylvania

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wasn't it? Oh absolutely I I would prior to that I'd never flown I'd only left the state once to go

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to New Jersey to the beach um so it was definitely an experience for me. And was this did you feel

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like this is part of what my dad wanted me to experience maybe wanted me to grow up a bit

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because I'm sure everybody who goes in goes through this and goes I'm not the same kid I was a year ago

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right yeah so I don't like any son and father he was trying to give me advice you know pull your

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head out of your butt uh yeah we've all got that one we've all got that one or given it yeah yeah so

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uh once I did that he you know he talked to me about joining and uh I decided it was probably

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for the best because I had no you know aspirations or anything I wanted to do um so yeah he talked

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me into it and at the time Band of Brothers had come out on HBO and my grandfather fought in World

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War II so I was very interested in that and I watched that and that was kind of my deciding

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factor of joining. I you know I said I want to have a band of brothers like that I want to go

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into combat I want to serve my country. Well as you say you go through your training and then

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like a week later you get orders to go to Afghanistan how did that impact you the family

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your dad Dean? So my parents had divorced when I was 10 but as far as my grandmother his mother

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and that side of the family they were very um worried for both of us they were happy that he

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was going with me because he also received orders to deploy we were in the same battalion he was in

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Alpha Company I was in the headquarters element um I was a hunter in third armor and uh yeah so the

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family was worried but at the same time my mom came to me and said I'm glad he's going with you.

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It's really an unusual situation where one deploys even with a family member a brother

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a sister let a mother or a father really unusual did you know anybody else who's doing that type

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of deployment? Not so much parent-child relationships but brother brother brother sister sister

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you know relationship sibling relationships um that was more common I think we came across one other

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father son duo that was over there the same time we were. So this is uh what 2009 when you're in

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Afghanistan 2008 2008 tell us about the conditions of fighting in Afghanistan at that point. So when

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I first got there it uh it wasn't too bad things were pretty um light as far as attacks once the

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old unit ripped out of the outpost we were on uh progressively got worse and worse the month of

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April we were hit pretty much every day uh whether it be mortars attacks you know what ids what have

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you um yeah so and the interesting part was my father was stationed at Bagram and he could go

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into the talk and see what was going on at my outpost while I was getting attacked you know what

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was happening at the time. So let's let's expand on that in the uh title of the book is remote outpost

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fighting with the US army in Afghanistan and we're talking to Travis Arman. Travis explain to us

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uh the outpost you were at and give our veteran radio listeners a little bit of insight of what

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that was about. Okay so the outpost was called Combat Outpost Nigel and it was in the uh I believe

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it was at the top of the Alashang Valley it was you were at the top of the bottom uh where the Alashang

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and Alangar valleys met uh we were put there to kind of stop Taliban traffic coming back and forth

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through Mederlam which Fahm Mederlam was our main base that we operate out of but 90 percent of the

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time we were at the outpost um so generally we would see combat while deployed on the outpost

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not so much outside the wire it became it started to become pretty heavy where we would get fire

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outside the wire but the majority of it was they were trying to overrun us.

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And talk about again there are a lot of people who are listening

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Travis who don't understand what these outposts were in Afghanistan. This is not a big formal

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base there's not a lot of people and give us some sense of the the size and the protection

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that is available in these remote outposts. Okay so we had one guard tower initially

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um and it was called Punisher Base or Punisher Tower and it oversaw a village that sat right

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across the road uh from us there was a road and then a little bit of a creek and across that was

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the village I can't remember the name of it I'll stop my head um but yeah so the outpost itself

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was encircled with three rows of constantian wire and then claymore mines and trip flayers.

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Um there were some Hesco barriers that you know the barriers filled with rocks and dirt to try

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and stop bullets and shrapnel but we had very limited sources up on the outpost.

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In terms of manpower we had a platoon of about 20 guys ourselves and then the Afghan army had

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about 20 soldiers as well. During this time when you're in this rotation that platoon is made up

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of all Pennsylvania National Guard members? Yes now the unique part about our platoon we were an

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infantry platoon um I joined as a radio operator and I was assigned to this infantry platoon as

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their RTO um but the unique thing about our platoon was it was a thrown together platoon so we

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were infantry on paper but realistically our jobs were you know we had cooks we had mechanics we had

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um artillery guys and a handful of infantry guys but the majority of us were from different you

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know occupational specialties. And that's uh was fairly common I think as a the war wore on and they

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kept kind of having to put units together to to man up and and so these weren't guys that you

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necessarily drilled with on a regular basis. Right uh I would say only about two of them were from

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my actual unit that I drilled with the rest were from throughout the state.

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So now you find yourself in Afghanistan at this remote outpost what's going on through your mind

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between that image that you had prior to joining up and and the reality that you're now facing?

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So it didn't really hit me until about the first weekend and I was at the main base of

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Bob Mederlam and I saw a Medevac helicopter was landing and they were pulling body bags off

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of Afghan troops and they were refueling, rearming the the Kiowas that were coming in the Blackhawks

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and uh you know that's when it really sunk in that this is real this isn't some movie that I've

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watched growing up like I need to keep my stuff together I need to keep my head on a swivel

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you know and uh once the first time outside the wire I thought I was going to be dead within seconds

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because I was just not ready for what was to come. Well and and I think that's the point at which

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fear, questioning, do I have the stuff to do what needs to be done for my buddies?

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All that's playing hard on you isn't it? Right yeah so it's a lot of stress obviously

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you don't want to let your team down you want to make it home yourself you want to make sure

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your buddies make it home with you and you want to accomplish your mission at the same time and

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you know as the as it wore on or went on I kind of just wrote myself off as dead already

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and that took away a lot of the fear for me. Just just mentally saying hey this is going to happen

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so quit worrying about it? Exactly yes. And the the horrific realities of warfare

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did it come to this outpost? Tell us about that. The warfare at the outpost? Yes. So it was pretty

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like I said in the beginning it wasn't so bad a couple pop shots here and there maybe an RPG

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fired at us but as this time passed it became we would have to start flying up to the outpost

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versus taking humvees because the IEDs were so thick and there's so many of them planted along

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our route we only had about one or two routes we could take by humvee to get there so they began

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to fly us in well when they began to fly us in they'd be waiting waiting for it to land on the

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helipad and they would start shooting at the helicopter. I came back from pass in Qatar

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in the beginning of July and our helicopter couldn't land on the outpost because it was taking

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fire and the outpost was taking fire so we had to circle around a couple times you know and we

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did a combat landing and got off just in time to get attacked again. Tell us a little bit about some

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of the injuries and casualties associated with the 20 guys and the Afghan troops up there at

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outpost Nagyul. So we had one one of our soldiers the PA Guard soldiers take some shrapnel from

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a I believe it was a Chinese rocket came in and hit the entry control point that he was manning

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because at this point we had built up a couple other towers to you know basically secure the

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outpost a little better because it was getting to the point where they were getting pretty close

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to getting inside the wire so we decided to push back the perimeter and in doing so they started

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you know figuring us out even more and you know we had it seemed like we had somebody one of the

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Terps or not one of the Terps who one of the Afghan workers on the post or on the outpost

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was you know an insider working for the Taliban. But in terms of other casualties usually the

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Afghan soldiers took the brunt of it it seemed you know there were multiple casualties there

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some killed some wounded you know shot through the legs shot other places it was just they

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they seemed to be bullet magnets in my eyes. Well they certainly probably were from the

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Taliban's viewpoint too that those were the traitors if you will. Yes. As the radio operator at the

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outpost again give give the civilian listening here some understanding of what you're doing

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during these attacks and what the what the role for the radio operator is.

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So if we were on the outpost and we would be attacked it was my job I was also a UAV operator

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or drone operator a handheld drone and it was my job when we started getting attacked to set

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the drone up get in the air to see where the Taliban is so that was one of my duties as the

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operator the radio operator. But generally on a daily basis I would have to go around and check

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every radio in the morning check all the radios before patrol make sure they had the right you

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know frequencies and whatnot they were encrypted the right way and then I would go out and patrol

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with everyone and take my you know my radio with the giant antenna that you see in like the Vietnam

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movies and that's what that reminded me of a lot was Vietnam like obviously I'm too young to have

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fought in Vietnam but the landscape and just the patrols on foot reminded me a lot of movies I watched

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as a kid. When you're over in Afghanistan how old are you? When I'm there I'm 20. And how old is

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your dad about? He is at that time he would be 40. And he had a different job you mentioned he was

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back at Bagram the whole time you're up at the outpost is he down at Bagram? Yeah so he was the

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unit movement officer for the battalion he was the NTO in charge not the actual officer

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but he was in charge of all the helicopter routes for our battalion and our supply movements and

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troop movements. So you know he I used to joke with him and say you have a cushy desk job

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because he had a desk and he was in a building with air conditioning and there I was sleeping in

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a tent with 10 other guys on the side of a mountain. Remember you're 20 years younger too so yeah yeah

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so let me ask this part part of your getting involved here was to demonstrate something to

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your dad or to create a different relationship with your dad how did this experience over in

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Afghanistan that you both experienced in a different way ultimately impact the relationship?

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If anything it brought us closer together not only were we father and son in a closer

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relationship but we were now brothers that band of brotherhood that I wanted and I never thought

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I would find it was my father but it turned out that I did and even when we came home we would

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swap war stories and you know he was in Iraq and prior to Afghanistan I would ask him how did it

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compare to my deployment versus your deployment the combat and you know different scenarios

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that we had been in and yeah so it actually brought us really close. I asked this of a lot of guys

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you know as you know the military Travis is having a hell of a recruiting problem right every

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branches but your dad would have encouraged you to join up and participate and some of that's family

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history some of its own experience from being in the Marines. As you reflect back and when it's time

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for you to have a son or a daughter a niece or a nephew come ask uncle uncle Travis hey

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should I'm thinking of joining up what do you think about that what's what's your view on it now?

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My thoughts now are my first thought would be no please don't but then that would retract and

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you know it's a great career if you make it one you get out of it what you put into it

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there are great benefits you know it's hard to navigate the VA afterwards but you know once you

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figure it out or find somebody that can figure it out for you you know all the benefits are there

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for you it's great in that aspect what I would say as a word of advice is be careful what job you pick

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or know the job you're going into and you know I think that's good advice for anything in life

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right do you do a little more study do a little more due diligence look into things you know see

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what might be useful if you only spend two or four or six years in what might be useful afterwards

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right I think that's what you're kind of saying yeah so in my entire 13 years in the PA guard

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I did four different jobs I was a radio operator a signal support NCO a infantryman and a supply

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sergeant when I were medically retired in 2018 you know I hated being a supply sergeant and I love

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being an RTO and an infantryman so I mean it's a hard life and it's hard on your body and your mind

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but it's very rewarding well and you develop that band of brothers that you were looking for you

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probably still have a bunch of guys who you're connected with that shared your experiences in

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a way that nobody else can really relate I suppose oh yeah they're my family everyone I served with

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and like I said even though my father wasn't on the outpost with me I still consider him a brother

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in a sense and you know we have a bond that I feel can never be broken well we're talking to

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Travis Harman he wrote remote outposts fighting with the US Army in Afghanistan it's published by

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casemate Travis if people want to read the book and learn more how do they do that so there's

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several ways you can go to my website www.travisharman.com it's spelled h-a-r-m-a-n or you can go to casemate

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publishers and google or search remote outposts you can just google my name you can google remote

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outpost Travis Harman it'll pop up it's on amazon barns noble it's available pretty much everywhere

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well we really appreciate not only your service but taking some time to spend with us here on

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veterans radio today Travis really a great job and we're glad that we got a chance to speak

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thank you thank you for having me I really enjoyed it military veterans touch everyone's life

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I'm guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran a close friend relative maybe it's you

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even the toughest on us sometimes need help but don't know where to turn for support you

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don't need special training to help a veteran in your life even small actions can make a world of

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difference if you know a veteran in crisis please call the veterans crisis line 800-273-8255

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800-273-8255 a message from the US Department of Veterans Affairs if you have a VA claim

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denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals contact legal help for veterans at 1-800-693-4800

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they're experts in handling cases before the US Court of Appeals for veterans claims their number

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again 1-800-693-4800 we want to welcome two veterans radio today we have a great author to talk to

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staff sergeant from the US Army six years michael cook michael welcome to veterans radio

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hey thank you so much for having me I'm really excited well you you have written a book called

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life and death at abbey gate it's really not only about the fall of afghanistan but the operation to

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save afghanistan individuals getting them out through the gate but also afterwards so that's

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really what we're going to talk about the book is published by casemate and but let's start with

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a little background you're you're a guy who went to eastern michigan university primarily to play

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hockey if i understood reading you right and later on said well you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna

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join the the US Army kind of an unusual step at that point tell us why you did it yeah so yeah

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grew up a local guy here in michigan growing up in an arbor and then going to eastern michigan so

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you know be hockey was always a big part of my life as it is with many people in this area right so

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i think i always had that camaraderie that that team feel in my life through my hockey experiences

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so then once i graduated college and moved out to california i kind of lost that so i was out there

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for about five or six years and was just feeling like i really needed something more like i need

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to be a part of a greater organization and that's really what i think led me to down to the recruiter's

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office down in huntington beach california so i went in talked to the marine recruiter talked to

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the army recruiter i'm decided that army was the branch that i was more interested in and started

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pursuing a career with them and you talk a little bit about your m.o.s you're an engineer

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battalion i think and construction tell us a little bit about that yep so as an engineer

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12 whiskey is the designator that i started at so mainly we we did all the army's construction work

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or you know security or anything like that anything that would need to be built or erected

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essentially engineers do that job so that's what most of our training consisted around and then on

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our deployment to afghanistan in 2019 and 2020 that's primarily what we were doing is just building

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beehuts like barracks or joint operation centers or you know what offenses for security whatever the

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military needed from us we built it yeah and while the general population you know 99% of the

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us population doesn't serve they only think of guys in the army with you know totem toad

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and a rifle going forward at the pointy end of the spear but somebody back here is building stuff

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cooking meals doing all the logistics things taking care of the mechanics and tanks and planes and

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what have you so we don't think much about what the construction engineers are doing so you probably

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find that pretty frustrating yeah i mean everyone in the military has a specialty right so there's

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a million jobs that need to be done so you have to make sure that we have guys in the field of

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operations that are able to complete those tasks when needed and it's really through that effort of

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being an army engineer that you came to work with a couple of afghanistan men and got to know them

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and their families set that up a little bit because it's really the cornerstone of the rest of the

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story yeah so when i was in afghanistan in 2019 and 20 the first part of my deployment was up in a

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city called mazari shari which is the second largest city in afghanistan it's in northern afghanistan

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right on the side of the hindu kish mountains it's one of the most beautiful places i've ever

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seen in my whole life and on that base we were stationed on a nato base up there that was ran by

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the german forces but on that base there's two men two afghan nationals names abdull and mohammad

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who i developed a very strong relationship with um started as a working relationship and turned

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into a friendship so they were contractors and they would essentially supply us with whatever

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materials that we would need to accomplish our mission so you know going through like the military

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pipeline of getting materials while you're in afghanistan can be very time consuming it could

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take you know multiple weeks or months to get things but these guys could get them there on like

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the next day right so they were very useful to us we worked with them every single day but they also

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took really good care of us so they bring us home cooked meals from their wives just because they

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knew that we were eating deployment food for a whole year so like i said just really turned into

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a friendship and they took great care of us so when i left mazari shari to move on to my next

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base in afghanistan you know i went in said goodbye to them and it was pretty much with the

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understanding that we were never going to see each other again um not knowing what was coming

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down the road right not knowing that the taladan was going to recapture afghanistan in summer of

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2021 so um that's kind of to tee it up how are the how the relationship started with them and if i

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understand it right these men abdull and mohammad were brother-in-laws yes that's correct so there's

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a tight family relationship among them and and you and your team were some of them were at least

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brought into that and got that sense i take it yes absolutely and as time goes on and you're out of

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afghanistan but in 2020 a year later or so you begin to see what's going to happen walk us through

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what you were watching from the outside and had concerns about yes so obviously the talaban

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starts um encroaching on all of afghanistan and taking perimeter cities slowly as they march

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towards kabool by this point all us troops have left afghanistan we've made the decision to give

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up bagram the most probably the most strategic base um in all of asia in the middle east um

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and you know when i when i look back on it on my deployment i can see signs of where things were

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going wrong right like i was there during the doha agreement that trump signs and i remember

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the afghan contractors that were there coming up to me after hearing about it and saying sir like

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you can't leave because if you guys leave we're all going to be slaughtered is exactly what one

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of them said and again i like i couldn't see the writing on the wall but they could see it so clearly

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like they knew exactly what was going to happen um you know all of our intelligence assets were

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saying that the afghan national army the afghan government that we put in place is going to be

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able to hold up after we left for you know different periods of time but most of them said you know a

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year five years ten years infinite um of course all of them are wrong because you know as soon as

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we left the Taliban took control of the country and i think five days or something um it it it happened

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so fast and the i would say the american planning was so bad um that these these inevitabilities just

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crashed upon uh the afghan nationals that had been working with uh the u.s military didn't it

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yeah yeah i mean in my book i do a deep dive into you know exactly what the failures were at the

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highest levels as well as doing a deep dive into what the do d report says happened versus what you

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know boots on the ground were saying that happened but there's just so many failures at the highest

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levels that um you know we ended up paying for in blood unfortunately well in your in your words

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uh in the book the withdrawal was a clusterfuck and everybody knows it was and unfortunately a lot

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of afghan nationals had to live with that cluster this is uh everybody from interpreters and translators

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and drivers and as and as abdull and mohammed were uh folks working on the construction side

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materials logistics i mean it it's a pretty big group of people plus their family members

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that are sort of left in the lurch isn't it yeah it is and you know those people are a lot of those

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people are still there you know hundreds of thousands of our allies are still stuck there and

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they're a lot of them are in hiding and on the run from the taliban um because if they get caught

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um there's a very very strong likelihood that them and their families will be killed so

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so there was something there was there was something created uh and we're talking to

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michael cook author of life and death at abbey gate michael there was something created it called the

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special immigrant visas siv i don't know that the general public actually understands what

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that was supposed to be and how it actually worked yeah so the special immigrant visa commonly

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referred to as the siv was a visa um that came into existence in the early 2000s i believe during the

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iraq war and essentially the visa was supposed to get awarded to our local allies that had worked

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with us for a certain amount of years i want to say it's two years so if you're in iraqi um if

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you're in afghan and you devote your service to the united states um and help us against our enemies

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we're going to make sure that you're protected um should you ever need protecting and we'll bring

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you here to the united states under a special immigrant visa that was that was the point of it um

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the program was wildly unsuccessful because they just weren't prepared for the amount of people

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that were going to be applying um again just backed up very poor government planning at the

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highest levels so due to uh the influx of applicants and um not enough resources to process them

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that's you know why so many of them got left behind uh in those summer months of august 2021

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well and some of it was just you know whoever planned this thing or thought this thing through

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you had to prove up that two-year status you had to prove up how important you were to the american

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cause it's not like there was somebody sitting in a desk cranking out paperwork on the computer system

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was there no and one of the big problems actually was that a lot of paperwork got lost so um these

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contractors or these afghan allies that were working for like a third party like an american

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contractor you know anytime those contractors would go out of business all that paperwork would be

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lost so now we get stuck with this position where we have these afghan allies that have devoted their

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lives to the united states and helping us while we're overseas and now we don't have any of their

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paperwork to prove that they're qualified for these visas so just one of the uh failures yeah there's

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this view that well we'll vet people well if there's no paperwork or not a cooperating government you

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can't vet them there's no way to do this and while this may be made sense in creating the siv

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program boy it did not work at all did it no it was um i said i'm with senator bloom and fall

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after the evacuation and when i was writing my book um and he straight up told me that the system

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is completely broken uh it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up you talk in the book about

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what happens at abbey gate and also talk about kind of what happens afterwards the digital

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duncurg i want to talk about but give us your view on what happened at abbey gate there in in

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august 2021 yeah so i guess there's a few ways to go down that path but abbey gate was essentially

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an entrance that's the uh himid karzai international airport which is in kibble it's the the civilian

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airport that's at kibble um that's the airport that the u.s. government decided to run the

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evacuation out of um why we decided to run out of there a civilian airport and not bagram a military

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base that was very well fortified it's a big mystery um but essentially abbey gate was one of the main

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gates um where a lot of people ended up escaping but also was the site of the um suicide bomber

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the isis k suicide bomber then killing 13 of our troops and it was just utter confusion at the gate

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there was no good way to get good people out we while a lot of people evacuated over that week

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um not nearly enough which sort of left people like abdull and mohammed in this uh position of

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getting in touch with old friends like yourself and saying what can you do for me yeah how did

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how did that develop and walk us through that uh a couple of days of craziness trying to make

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something work thousands of miles away yeah so i had kept in touch with abdull and mohammed um via

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whatsapp uh after deployment so um you know communication kind of slowed a little bit

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in the years that um that passed but then you know july and august of 2021 when the talban's

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coming up on kibble is really when our communication picked up heavily so um at that point both men

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and their families had fled from mazah shriek down to kibble because that was the last remaining

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stronghold of the afghan national army and the afghan government so the talban essentially had

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them surrounded as well as all of our allies surrounded so i get a call from our face time from

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abdull and i'll never forget that kizyu is holding his little daughter his baby daughter and i'm

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sitting in my kitchen with my mother and we're FaceTiming and you know i remember my mother had

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to step off screen because she was just so devastated because she she understood what

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was about to happen not only to abdull and mohammed but to their families and their daughters

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you know these daughters are if they survive they're going to grow up in a country where

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they're not allowed to go to school they're not allowed to work they're not allowed to leave their

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their homes without a mail escort or without their faces covered i mean all their entire

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futures are being stripped from them in the moment that we're having this phone conversation

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so that was obviously very tough but abdull just you know essentially asked if i could help them

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find a way out and that's really when we started looking at the visas and found the special immigrant

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visa process so i reached out to senator debbie stabbina here in michigan her and her team were

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amazing and very helpful in trying to expedite the process of getting these visas going

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unfortunately there just wasn't time to get a visa in those short weeks right i mean it takes

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can take years um and a lot of people that applied for i said these still don't have case numbers

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today you know years later so at that point we we pretty much just knew we needed to make a

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run for the airport because even you know debbie stabbina was set up for failure by the state

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department because the guidance that she was getting and passing on to me was have them shelter at

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home wait for the call to get their visas and then they can proceed to the airport well you know

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like i just said that was never going to happen so at that point we knew we had to make a run for

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the airport and um you know they had a pretty disastrous first run at the airport um they

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ran into a tailband checkpoint mohammed got roughed up real good um they beat him with their

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rifles and um when i you know when i ended up seeing him a few months later he was still

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covered head to toe and bruising so at that point we knew we needed to make some deeper

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connections and that's really what led to the digital duncork network of people um essentially

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the underground group of people that were working online veterans and civilians alike

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just to try to find ways to help these afghan allies get out of the country and this digital

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duncork uh network is working outside really the us government process if i understand it

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it was i mean there was a lot of there's a lot of active duty military and there are a lot of

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veterans a lot of guys and girls that understood the processes that were would need to take place

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but weren't subjected to the same red tape that um you know a government evacuation was so we were

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able to kind of uh run a little loose outside the lines which was a lot more effective than you

386
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know whatever the government was doing and you go through in the book which is a easy good

387
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informative read life and death at abbey gate you go through various talk about various individuals

388
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who helped along this process because you were stumbling in the dark you didn't know how to

389
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make this happen and everybody was learning from everybody else and and the line i wrote down was

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about the individual courage displayed not only by the afghan nationals but also by

391
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:32,240
civilian veterans active duty military that individual courage which was running up against

392
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:38,480
the inept bureaucracy it had to be frustrating yeah it was and like you said we didn't you know

393
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:43,040
we didn't really know what we were doing we just knew that it had to happen fast so i think one line

394
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:48,320
in my book is we we were building the airplane mid-flight is essentially what we were trying to do um

395
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so we were setting up all these essentially joint operation centers online um through all these

396
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encrypted messaging apps and just passing information as fast as possible um on what was

397
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:06,080
happening at happening at the airport in different ways and there's a whole range of people who help

398
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:14,720
out on this i mean uh some some sort of uh big names maybe maybe bigger influences than others but

399
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:21,200
but a whole range of people are helping on this effort that not only you are engaged with but

400
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,360
but you know tens of thousands of other afghan nationals are trying to get out

401
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:32,160
yeah yeah i mean it's like everybody um if you are useful you were put to work so um whether that

402
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:38,160
not you were uh you know a famous politician or just some veteran like myself that deployed

403
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:43,600
afghanistan a couple years prior um everyone was put to work and um did whatever they could to help

404
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:51,440
this was in a uh a 24-7 exhaustive effort as you were writing about what you're trying to do in

405
00:46:51,440 --> 00:47:01,360
the time zone differences and and i just felt reading it how exhausted you were but how exhausted

406
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:07,120
abdull and mohammed and their family was yeah and i can't even imagine because i i do remember

407
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:11,040
how tired i was because you know when it's daytime over there it's nighttime here so i'd

408
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:17,760
stayed up every single night for probably a week in a row and i was exhausted but i i kept putting

409
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:24,800
myself in their shoes i mean they're being they're being hunted by a brutal enemy and just trying to

410
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:31,200
escape with their lives you know and adding small children into that equation is just terrifying for

411
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,680
any american to even think about but that's the situation that they were in so i knew

412
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,080
and everyone else working on it knew that there was nothing that was going to stop us

413
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:46,640
start to give everything we had and it was it was really some active duty uh military

414
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:55,280
marines and others who are sort of violating or breaking bending protocol to make some of this work

415
00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:04,320
and and that's an amazing part of the story that those men and women active duty men and women

416
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:10,480
ought to get credit for their humanity and what they're doing right for the country absolutely i mean

417
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,240
i hate to say that the marine a lot of the marines were set up for failure at the gates as well

418
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:20,480
but they really were i mean the state department just really botched this evacuation and they just

419
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:26,160
weren't the the marines that were at the front lines were not giving the proper guidance to execute

420
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:31,600
this evacuation properly so yeah like i said a lot of times they had to kind of go against policy and

421
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:38,560
just do what they knew was right to save lives so i was just so proud to share this same uniform as

422
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:44,000
those men and women that that stood on the front lines that abbey gates um i do want to say before

423
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:51,680
we run out of time that abdull and mohammed and the family was able to get out and relocate um give us

424
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:59,200
that synopsis quickly yeah thank you for asking they're doing great um they uh i won't say exactly

425
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:04,880
where they live but they live very close to me um i get to see them constantly i'm going over to

426
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:10,800
their house this weekend for dinner um kids are doing great and have are fluently speaking english

427
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,760
and they're in school and playing soccer and you know the money each have jobs and they're um

428
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:21,600
have their own uh apartments so they're doing fantastic um and we're just so happy to have them

429
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:29,280
here safely well it's an american success story and we hope they are embrace it enjoy it uh michael

430
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:35,760
kuk author of life and death at abbey gate if somebody wants to read your very candid straightforward

431
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:41,120
account of the fall of afghanistan the operation to save our allies where can they find the book

432
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,880
yeah anywhere you buy your books um amazon obviously barns and noble uh you can go to my

433
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:55,120
website which is michael kuk dot com that's m-i-k-a-e-l kuk dot com uh and you can purchase it there as well

434
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:02,960
well your service to the country in the army was uh really quite noble but more importantly the work

435
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:10,320
you did afterwards to honor a commitment made to these afghan nationals and their families is even

436
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:16,400
more noteworthy so michael we are very happy to have you here on veterans radio yeah thank you so

437
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,360
much i really enjoyed that conversation as stated at the outset i wanted to talk about afghanistan

438
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:27,040
today because we're approaching the two-year anniversary of the pullout of afghanistan

439
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:32,960
and actually the u.s. state department just issued its afghanistan after action review report

440
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:43,200
two years later um and it details the shortcomings that led to as a quote the deadly and chaotic

441
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:51,280
us withdrawal from that country after nearly two decades on the ground close quote um it points out

442
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:56,800
insufficient senior level consideration of worst case scenarios and how quickly those might

443
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:04,960
follow um it details findings of the tumultuous final weeks there and the biden administration's

444
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:10,400
frenzy withdrawal it has criticism of the trump administration before that as well for

445
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:17,120
um laying out a plan to withdraw and giving the enemy an opportunity to get ready for that

446
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:25,760
but really sharper criticism around the biden's administration's uh activities and not anticipating

447
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:31,840
how quickly the government would fall it's actually much more critical than the white house

448
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:40,960
summary document that was released in april of 2024 this is one of those government reports that

449
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:49,200
you see or hear about with plenty of recommendations that probably nobody will ever follow the report

450
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:57,440
will go on a shelf somewhere stored in a server um but it did identify 11 recommendations and

451
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:02,480
that maybe one of the main ones was the need to identify and plan better for worst case scenarios

452
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:11,840
and that's probably obvious to all we want to salute our afghan veterans those over a 20-year

453
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:20,400
period who devoted their blood sweat and tears and blood at times uh to the mission that was set

454
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:27,440
out for in afghanistan i don't know that we can necessarily look at how it ended and view the

455
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:33,920
entire war that way much like we look back on vietnam and the chaotic ending in vietnam uh a

456
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:40,480
different view of the entire war and and what was accomplished similarly for our afghanistan veterans

457
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:48,080
uh a lot to be proud of uh you took the call you did the work and we do appreciate it so we did

458
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:56,480
want to focus today on that particular era of military service which involved so many people

459
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:04,640
the department of defense says 832 000 american soldiers served in afghanistan

460
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:10,640
now that's a much smaller number than the approximately 2.7 million american men and women

461
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:16,080
who served in the republic of vietnam during the war and that's that would be boots on the ground

462
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:22,560
but it's still a significant portion of our population uh from an all volunteer army that's

463
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:28,240
the other big difference right vietnam had the draft to bring all those folks in here these

464
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:36,240
were all volunteers uh both active reserve and national guard who were called and put to the test

465
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:42,720
so again we uh appreciate that service and wanted to recognize this two-year anniversary

466
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:48,720
on veterans radio we can't tell these stories and bring them to you and honor our veterans

467
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:58,400
without the help of our sponsors including the v a an arbor health care system nvbdc.org

468
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:05,280
dedicated to certifying disabled and veteran owned businesses the vietnam veterans of america

469
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:11,280
association i'm talking the national level is a sponsor for us and we couldn't be more proud

470
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:17,440
legal help for veterans dot com which is a veterans disability law firm nationwide

471
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:24,240
but also our locals uh vietnam veterans of america chapter uh 310 in an arbor the charles has

472
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:34,160
kettles chapter vfw graph o'hair vfw post 423 american legion urwin press con post 46 in an arbor

473
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:40,400
all of these folks help bring these stories to life it's pretty amazing when you look back

474
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:46,240
because we've been on the air for 21 years um that we've been on the air for the entire time of the

475
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:52,320
entire time of the afghanistan war we've told a lot of these stories i i gave reference to it was

476
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:59,440
just one of them uh earlier that we did and if you go back in the archives at veterans radio

477
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:06,000
dot org and put in afghanistan you'll find a lot of other interesting stories that dale or myself

478
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:12,560
have had recorded and preserved for history and that's what we do we at veterans radio tell the

479
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:18,800
stories of our american veterans and keep them for the future you can continue to help us tell

480
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:24,960
these stories by going to our website and donating uh let's say it's 20 bucks for the 20 plus years

481
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:33,760
we've been on the uh air or you can participate in our annual and really only fundraiser radio on

482
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:44,080
the river on september 22nd 2024 in yipps alaney it's a fantastic event um you can go there and

483
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:50,320
find out how you can get tickets or maybe you want to be a sponsor we're seeking sponsors uh co-sponsors

484
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:56,640
for the program at a five hundred dollar level so great way to keep us on the air and keep involved

485
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:03,360
and with all that we're doing and we couldn't be more appreciative so i'm jim fausone i've been your

486
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:09,360
officer of the deck today uh bringing you these stories about afghanistan and highlighting the end

487
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:18,720
of that war keep us going here on veterans radio dale will be back next week and until next week

488
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:34,720
and veterans radio you are dismissed