1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,600 All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:22,600 And now your host for today's program, Dale Throneberry. 3 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,200 And welcome to Veterans Radio. 4 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:29,780 My name is Dale Throneberry, CW2-type helicopter pilot in Vietnam. 5 00:00:29,780 --> 00:00:35,120 According to our program, we are going to be going way back in time, I guess you could 6 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:36,120 say. 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,040 We're going to go to the Veterans Radio archives and pull out a program that I think that you're 8 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:41,360 really going to enjoy. 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,200 It's going to be most informative. 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:50,000 This program was originally recorded on October 20, 2007. 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:55,440 And so the idea behind the program is it's the ethics, mortality, and war. 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:00,360 And we talked with the author, Shannon French, and she's the author of a book titled Code 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,200 of the Warrior, Exploring Warrior Values Past and Present. 14 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,540 What are ethics? 15 00:01:05,540 --> 00:01:06,700 What is morality? 16 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:09,240 How can one behave in a moral manner? 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,160 These are among the most difficult, most interesting questions that people face at any age. 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,220 What defines a warrior today? 19 00:01:16,220 --> 00:01:20,560 So as I mentioned, we're going to explore these questions with our guest, Shannon French. 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,560 She's the associate professor, associate chair of the Department of Leadership, Ethics, and 21 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,800 Law at the United States Naval Academy and the author of the Code of the Warrior, Exploring 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,280 Warrior Values Past and Present. 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,640 I really want you to listen to this program. 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:41,160 I think it's very valuable, even though we recorded in 2007 the information that we talk 25 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,640 about during the program, it's universal. 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:46,840 It's timeless. 27 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,920 So stick around and make sure that you do listen to that. 28 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,720 Before we get to that, we have to make sure that we thank our sponsors. 29 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,320 So we can't do this program without them. 30 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,920 So I want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. 31 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,840 Legal Help for Veterans specializes in veterans disability claims. 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:12,040 Give Legal Help for Veterans a call at 800-693-4800 or go to their website, legalhelpforveterans.com. 33 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:17,160 The National Veterans Business Development Council, better known as NVBDC, is the nation's 34 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,480 leading third-party authority for certification of veteran-owned businesses. 35 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:31,000 For more information, go to their website, NVBDC.org, or give them a call at 888-237-8433. 36 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,760 The Charles S. Kettles VA Medical Center in Ann Arbor, Michigan. 37 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:40,240 For more information on them, go to va.gov.com. 38 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,640 The Vietnam Veterans of America never again will one generation of veterans abandon another. 39 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:50,080 For more information, you can go to their website, vva.org. 40 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:55,160 The Irwin Prescott American Legion Post-46 and the Charles S. Kettles Vietnam Veterans 41 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:00,600 of America Chapter 310, both of Ann Arbor, Michigan. 42 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,440 So as I mentioned, we're going to be talking with Dr. French. 43 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:10,480 So sit back and enjoy this interview with Dr. Shannon French from the United States Naval 44 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,480 Academy. 45 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:12,480 Here we go. 46 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,520 I want to welcome you back to our program today. 47 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,560 We're going to be talking about ethics, morality, and war. 48 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,440 Why do we have to have a code of conduct? 49 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:21,440 What's the point? 50 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,480 I mean, if we're in a war, we're in a war. 51 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:28,320 Our guest today is Professor Dr. Shannon French. 52 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,320 She is an associate professor at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis, where she 53 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,120 serves as the associate chair of the Department of Leadership Ethics and Law. 54 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:42,360 Dr. French received her BA from Trinity University in Texas and her PhD from Brown University 55 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,040 in Philosophy, and she joined the Naval Academy in 1997. 56 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,200 Her book, which I thought was really interesting, is The Code of the Warrior, Exploring Warrior 57 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,640 Values Past and Present. 58 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,840 And she has taught classes in moral reasoning for the naval leader, teaches philosophy electives 59 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,600 such as military ethics, the code of the warrior, advanced warrior ethics, and philosophy of 60 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,520 religion, sacrifice, and responsibility, and knowing your enemy. 61 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,680 Dr. French, welcome to Veterans Radio. 62 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,120 Oh, thank you for having me. 63 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:13,280 I'm honored to be here. 64 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,600 I think it's a very timely topic. 65 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,680 We have talked about this on our program in the past about the code of conduct and why 66 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:22,880 we have that. 67 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,280 And I was wondering if you could kind of give us a little historical background on that. 68 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:27,280 Oh, absolutely. 69 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:30,440 First of all, I have to do a little disclaimer. 70 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,640 The views I will express are my own and not necessarily those of the Naval Academy or the 71 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:35,640 Department of Defense. 72 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,400 And nor that of Veterans Radio. 73 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:38,400 There you go. 74 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,160 Have to do that. 75 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:49,040 But now to your question, the history of the conduct of war, usually people look at it 76 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,720 and they think of the kinds of agreements that are made between nations. 77 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:54,720 And that is very important. 78 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:01,280 I mean, we do have the laws of war, the laws of armed conflict as we see them today, that 79 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:07,160 have a history of nations coming together and saying, if we're going to fight one another, 80 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:14,320 let's set certain parameters so that this war is not a completely total war, that there 81 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,440 is some limit to the scope. 82 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:22,120 The problem with that is that those kinds of agreements, first of all, they are between 83 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:23,120 nations. 84 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:31,120 So, in modern warfare, where you have us fighting as we are now in many places, non-state actors, 85 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,280 we don't have the sense that those old systems apply. 86 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:42,320 The other problem is that those kinds of conduct of war agreements depend on reciprocity. 87 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:49,640 In other words, if the other side is going to violate these codes of conduct, then you 88 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,880 may say, well, it was a contract. 89 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,440 You violated your end. 90 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,480 Now we can violate our end. 91 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,800 The actual code of the warrior, which is what I write about and what I study, is to my mind 92 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,680 much more profound. 93 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,440 And it doesn't come from lawyers or politicians. 94 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,000 It comes from the warriors themselves. 95 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,040 And it has more to do with what is honorable and what is dishonorable conduct in the eyes 96 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,240 of those very warriors. 97 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:22,880 And it has to do with protecting the warriors themselves as they go into these incredibly 98 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,840 difficult situations where they have to make split-second decisions and give them some 99 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:35,400 guidance so that they don't judge, again, judge themselves to have crossed over critical 100 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,400 lines and become murderers or monsters. 101 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,040 I think that's a really important distinction to make because we all, all of us, I think 102 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:48,160 that went through the military at one point or another, we had to study the code of conduct. 103 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:55,960 And then when you get into a war-type situation, it kind of goes out the window sometimes. 104 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,360 You have to rely on your own moral base to decide whether you're going to cross that 105 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,000 line or not. 106 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,080 And I think that that's one of the reasons that we have so many people out there suffering 107 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:10,200 from psychological problems when they get back because, unfortunately, maybe they cross 108 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,000 that line. 109 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,120 And they're trying to figure out how to deal with that. 110 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,120 Do you agree? 111 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:16,520 Well, I absolutely agree. 112 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:22,200 And the trouble is that post-traumatic stress and its various versions, which are so damaging 113 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:28,360 and can actually give lifelong problems for some folks, those can occur whether it's a 114 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,320 case of intentional crossing over the line. 115 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:38,120 By that I mean where you basically reach a point and you decide to throw the rules out 116 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:43,720 the window and you intentionally say, I'm not going to try to sort out who's a combatant 117 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,360 or non-combatant, I'm just going to use the expression, I'm going to kill them all and 118 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,080 let God sort them out. 119 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:56,440 But it also happens for the vast majority of cases of civilian deaths where it isn't 120 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,800 that kind of an intentional thing. 121 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,520 But it's a mistake. 122 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:01,840 It's a tragic accident. 123 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:07,640 It's a case where you did everything you were supposed to do to determine whether your target 124 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,880 was legitimate or not. 125 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:16,920 And for whatever reason, and sometimes through the actual intentional choices and actions 126 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,280 of the enemy, you killed civilians. 127 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:27,000 You were tricked into it or you had no way to judge who was at the other end of the bullet 128 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,280 that you were sending. 129 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,520 That kind of case, those cause severe trauma as well. 130 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:39,640 So I guess my point there is it's hard enough and can be traumatic enough when you have 131 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,400 a code to follow. 132 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,360 It becomes just worse and unbearable when you don't even try. 133 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:51,360 I think what's interesting and I was reading your bio and some of the information on your 134 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:56,760 text is that you, this is your first book I believe, the Code of the Warrior. 135 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,040 And I know you've got another one which we can talk about in a little bit. 136 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,520 But you go back and you talk about the history of these codes of conducts all the way back 137 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,200 to the Greeks and even the Vikings and the Romans and things. 138 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,400 And I was wondering if you could kind of talk a little bit about the derivation of that 139 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:12,800 and where that came from. 140 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,000 When we decided to fight by the rules. 141 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Oh, absolutely. 142 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:21,880 And what I find very fascinating and the reason I've enjoyed my research so much is that 143 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:27,120 there is quite a lot of commonality among these different warrior cultures no matter 144 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:32,160 how far back you go in history or where you look anywhere around the globe. 145 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:39,320 And I think that is because the experience of war, even though technologies change, the 146 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:47,240 raw experience of war is itself pretty common, pretty similar again in any century. 147 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,680 So you can look back at the Greeks and you find them wrestling with some of the same 148 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:54,520 issues that our troops are wrestling with today. 149 00:09:54,520 --> 00:10:01,720 And the example that I like to give is that when you have someone who is asked to fight 150 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:09,680 to defend their community, their tribe, their clan, whatever, they are being given a special 151 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:10,680 status. 152 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:16,480 They are allowed to do things that if they did in the ordinary life that they led before, 153 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,080 they would be thrown out of that society. 154 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,080 You are allowed to kill. 155 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,360 You are allowed to use certain weapons, etc. 156 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,920 So once you give someone that special status, you place this unique burden on them. 157 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,040 You say, okay, we are going to let you do these things. 158 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:37,120 But because we all know these things are normally beyond the pale in our society, it's up to 159 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:43,720 you to draw the line so that you don't become someone who can never fit back into the society 160 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,800 that you defended. 161 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:51,440 And so if you go back again any far distance into the past that you want to, you find warriors 162 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:57,960 wrestling with, how do I do what I need to do to defend my community and not become someone 163 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:03,240 who after it's all over, it's basically a danger to that same community. 164 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:09,800 Someone who can't enjoy what I defended and someone who might even be dangerous to my 165 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,440 family, the people closest to me. 166 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:17,920 If you look at the wonderful ancient war epic, The Iliad, which I write about in my book, 167 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,920 we have the character of Hector who loves his family, loves his wife and child. 168 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:29,400 And yet when he's on the battlefield, he's as vicious and effective a killer as any of 169 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:30,400 the other warriors. 170 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:37,240 So he has to find a way to be a warrior one moment and yet not sacrifice so much of his 171 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:43,120 humanity that he can't go back and hug his baby son and love his wife. 172 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,320 I think that's an issue that many, many veterans deal with. 173 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,400 We're talking with Dr. Shannon French for the United States Naval Academy where she 174 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:54,840 teaches courses in ethics and war and how you make those determinations of what is right 175 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,600 and what is wrong in our own lives. 176 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,800 Dr. French, I was wondering if I was thinking of some of the people that we've had on our 177 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,100 program in the past and we've talked to them about the issues of coming back to civilian 178 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:14,560 life and the difficulties that they have had assimilating back into that because especially 179 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:17,400 maybe it's got to be the same for every war. 180 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:22,520 But I was thinking of the Vietnam War where we would leave Vietnam and we would be home 181 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,520 in our own house within 24 hours. 182 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:33,520 And some of the problems that would come about when you're on a knee jerk reaction overseas 183 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,800 and then you're home and people might say something and people would react to that. 184 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:44,360 Well, I actually think the older cultures seem to have had a better handle in some cases 185 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,280 on the importance of the warrior's transition. 186 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:54,360 I mean if you think about it, we understand, we clearly do in all of our branches of the 187 00:12:54,360 --> 00:13:01,720 military, that you have to get someone geared up and prepared before you send them to war. 188 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:07,560 We have, whether it's basic training or whatever type of training that we give, different people 189 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:13,040 in the different branches, we have a clear understanding that you can't just grab someone 190 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,560 off the street and throw them in the midst of war. 191 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:18,360 And yet we don't seem to understand that the same thing works in reverse. 192 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,280 You can't just grab someone out of war and throw them back into their ordinary civilian 193 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,640 life and expect that transition to work. 194 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:32,200 Now I think that some cultures had rituals that were linked to their religions that were 195 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:33,200 very helpful. 196 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:39,560 They had, for example, the Native Americans and some of the Plains tribes had purification 197 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:46,600 rituals involving sweat lodges and other rites that gave the warrior a time to reflect 198 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:54,400 on what he had done in war and a chance to symbolically feel cleansed of the ugliness 199 00:13:54,400 --> 00:14:01,400 of war before returning to his family and being gentle again. 200 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:02,400 And that's not unique. 201 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:03,960 You find that in the Romans. 202 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,880 They had purification rituals. 203 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:12,680 And interestingly, some medieval knights, when they returned from combat, had special 204 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:17,840 forms of penance that they did that were not seen as punishment, but they were seen as 205 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:24,920 a chance to delay a little bit, that return to their family and do something positive acts 206 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:31,840 of atonement that would make them feel more, well, more fit to be with their family because 207 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,440 regardless of how noble their service may have been, they could still feel tainted in 208 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:38,440 some way. 209 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,840 And what matters is their feelings, not something we impose from them externally. 210 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,040 So I think we've kind of lost the understanding of that. 211 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:51,120 And I hope now we're starting to see some people realize that and bring back some warrior 212 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,520 transition programs. 213 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:57,120 The best example is the Marine Corps, which now has a program actually called that, called 214 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:58,800 the Warrior Transition Program. 215 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,320 Oh, okay, well, that's good to know because we were, I know that sometimes when the troops 216 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,080 are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, now they're usually a week or two before they 217 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,160 actually get home. 218 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,800 And I'm sure probably trying to get them to come down a little bit from that emotional 219 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:22,760 pie or experience that they had and try to come back into a real life and not react quite 220 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,960 as quickly as they would in a war type situation. 221 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,800 And a lot of it is awareness. 222 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:35,240 I had the opportunity to work with the Navy and Marine Corps chaplains, both in 2004 and 223 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,760 2006, and I learned so much from them. 224 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:45,760 And one of the things that we talked a lot about is that just letting our troops know, 225 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:50,800 giving them a chance to look at the experience of other warriors. 226 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,840 You mentioned in the earlier segment, veterans helping veterans. 227 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,840 This is a case where that could be so profoundly useful. 228 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:04,720 If they can talk to other veterans about that transition, if they can just talk to other 229 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,080 warriors who've seen what they've seen, then they realize that what they're feeling is 230 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:14,280 normal, that to come back and to still feel like your head's on a swivel and can't drive 231 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:19,600 straight down a highway because you think you have to zigzag because you did in Iraq 232 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,640 or you can't look at trash on the side of the road and not think that could be an IED, 233 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,840 that those feelings are completely normal and they will fade with time, that can actually 234 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:36,160 be essential knowledge without the understanding that it's normal to feel this way. 235 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,600 Their feelings that are hard to deal with as they are get compounded with a kind of panic. 236 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,120 They think, am I freaking out? 237 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,480 Is this something that I should be worried about? 238 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:52,280 I totally agree with that idea because the thing is that if you do sit down, if you get 239 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,280 the opportunity to sit down and talk with other veterans, you do find out that you're 240 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,880 more normal than you think that you are. 241 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,080 And unfortunately it seems like the military kind of puts a little stigma on that. 242 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:10,320 If you did want to go to some sort of group meeting and just shoot the breeze and come 243 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,880 out of there, usually you'll feel a little bit better. 244 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,760 And I find that it's helpful in my classes when my students read about these ancient 245 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:23,520 cultures that understood that the warriors needed a little psychological and also spiritual 246 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,880 help coming back from war. 247 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,320 When they read about that, it adjusts their thinking and they think, wow, that's not a 248 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:36,680 wimpy or non-masculine thing to be concerned with. 249 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,840 It's something we sort of forgot. 250 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:46,920 But these cultures that you associate with ferocious warriors understood that the warriors 251 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:52,640 had to make this transition and that they can't be expected to just flick some kind 252 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,720 of switch and suddenly they're civilians again. 253 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:01,680 Well, in your class, when you're dealing with a younger generation in this case, what kind 254 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,640 of issues do you have with them regarding ethics? 255 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:13,120 Well, I would say that the most pervasive problem is a kind of moral relativism or situational 256 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:14,120 ethics. 257 00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:23,520 It's very troubling to me because you get folks at the academy who have already got a 258 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,320 lot of their moral development behind them. 259 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,480 A lot of that happens when you're kids, of course. 260 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,280 And by the time we get them, much of their character is formed. 261 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,960 And don't misunderstand me, these are wonderful men and women and I'm honored to be teaching 262 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,200 them and to be working with them. 263 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,440 But nevertheless, I do see, and even in the 11 years I've been, I've even seen a bit of 264 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:50,280 a shift, more of them having a reluctance to pass any kind of moral judgment, whether 265 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,840 on themselves or others. 266 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,360 And that's what I mean by kind of relativism. 267 00:18:55,360 --> 00:19:02,240 They want to say, well, in that situation, it's okay or, well, if you felt that way about 268 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,400 it or who am I to judge. 269 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:11,120 And I guess I'd like to see a little more of the moral absolutes coming through here 270 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,120 and there. 271 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:13,120 It's interesting. 272 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:19,280 We've been following a case of submarines that I believe it was in Haditha that were 273 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:26,440 involved in a confrontation and ended up killing some Iraqi civilians. 274 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:33,680 And everybody so far, except for one, has been released, I guess, but one of their commanders, 275 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:39,960 Lieutenant Colonel Chisani, is still on trial for supposedly covering up what had occurred. 276 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,320 And it seems like nobody's stepping to the front and saying, listen, here is the moral 277 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:49,440 dilemma, here is the solution instead of trying to find some scapegoat out there to blame 278 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:50,440 on it. 279 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:56,600 Well, I agree, and I think in cases like Haditha and other instances where we think possibly 280 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:04,240 our some of our troops may have done the wrong thing, one of the problems I believe, I could 281 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:09,800 be wrong about this, but I believe that people forget that you can condemn an action and 282 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,560 still offer redemption to the individual. 283 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:23,480 It doesn't make you some vicious person, some heartless person if you draw the line and 284 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,320 say that action was absolutely wrong. 285 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,520 You can then move from there to now what do we do to these individuals? 286 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,880 Do we look at whether we put them in a situation where they were very likely to do something 287 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:35,880 wrong? 288 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,400 Did we not give them the training they needed? 289 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,400 Did we not give them the support in this context that they needed? 290 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,840 You can look at those mitigating questions after the fact, but it's very important to 291 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,960 draw the lines clearly. 292 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:54,920 The reason for that is, to my mind, you're making it harder for the next group if you 293 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,480 make the lines blurry because they have to make these difficult decisions. 294 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:04,960 If you said, well, it depends and oh, I don't know, then they don't have the kind of guidance 295 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,440 that they ought to be able to count on. 296 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,320 You know that there are at least stories that we have heard of people hesitating when you 297 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,320 get it. 298 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,600 You're in a situation where somebody shoots at you and you hesitate before you shoot back 299 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,760 and end up getting killed or wounded or something along those lines. 300 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,280 I think that you just touched on that of where is that line? 301 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,400 Where do we make that decision? 302 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,760 We're coming up on the bottom of the hour and I'm going to ask you to hold on as we 303 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:32,960 come around. 304 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,600 I want to remind everybody out there that we're talking to Dr. Shannon French, who is 305 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,960 a professor at the Naval Academy in ethics, and we're trying to figure out exactly, just 306 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,680 have a discussion on do ethics play a part in war, really? 307 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,080 Should they or should they not? 308 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,480 You're listening to Veterans Radio. 309 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,720 We'll be right back after these messages. 310 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,240 The Medal of Honor is the highest award for valor in combat given a member of the Armed 311 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,000 Forces of the United States. 312 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,480 There had been over 3,400 recipients of the nation's highest award. 313 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,960 This is one of them. 314 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:09,200 Air Force Captain Lance Sijon, after being unconscious for 48 hours, waved off his rescuers 315 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,760 because the enemy was too close to him. 316 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,120 Details after this. 317 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:19,840 Are you satisfied just tuning your car or would you rather get your hands on the engine 318 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,320 of an Air Force F-22 jet? 319 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,960 The Air Force is on the leading edge of technology and we provide all the technical training you'll 320 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:27,960 need. 321 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,960 If you want to work with tomorrow's technology today, check out the Air Force. 322 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:39,560 For more information, call 1-800-423-USAF or logon at AirForce.com. 323 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,200 Cross into the blue with the U.S. Air Force. 324 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,560 No one comes close. 325 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:50,160 While on a flight over North Vietnam, Sijon ejected from his disabled aircraft, suffered 326 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:56,000 a compound fracture of his leg, and successfully evaded capture for more than six weeks. 327 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,880 During this time, he was seriously injured and suffered from shock and extreme weight 328 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,920 loss due to lack of food. 329 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,720 After being captured by North Vietnamese soldiers, Sijon was taken to a holding point for subsequent 330 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,360 transfer to a prisoner of war camp. 331 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:14,080 In his emaciated and crippled condition, he overpowered one of his guards and crawled 332 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,120 into the jungle only to be recaptured after several hours. 333 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,440 He was then transferred to another POW camp where he was kept in solitary confinement 334 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,920 and interrogated at length. 335 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,400 During the interrogations, he was severely tortured, however, he did not divulge any 336 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,200 information to his captors. 337 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,680 Sijon lapsed into delirium and was placed in the care of another prisoner. 338 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,440 During his intermittent periods of consciousness, he never complained of his physical condition 339 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,840 and on several occasions spoke of future escape attempts. 340 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,680 Sijon died in an North Vietnamese POW camp. 341 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,560 The Medal of Honor series is a production of veterans' radio. 342 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,200 If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans' Appeals, contact Legal Help 343 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,240 for Veterans at 1-800-693-4800. 344 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,120 They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans' Claims. 345 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:06,280 Their number again, 1-800-693-4800. 346 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:11,320 If you're a veteran, do you get your healthcare from VAN Arbor Healthcare System? 347 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:12,920 If not, why not? 348 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,440 Did you know VA equals or outperforms private sector healthcare in just about every measure 349 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,440 of quality? 350 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,280 Did you know nearly 70,000 local veterans choose VA? 351 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,520 You could be eligible for world-class healthcare at little or no cost. 352 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,200 Visit va.gov to check your eligibility. 353 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,080 Isn't it time you choose VA? 354 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,080 www.va.gov. 355 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,360 A message from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. 356 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:41,360 We're back on Veterans' Radio. 357 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:45,520 We're talking with Dr. Shannon French, a professor at the United States Naval Academy, where 358 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,960 she works in the Department of Leadership, Ethics, and Law. 359 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,080 I'll bet most of you civilians out there didn't know that the military studied leadership, 360 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,080 ethics, and law. 361 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,240 Dr. French, I was reading the article that got me all interested in talking to you from 362 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,240 the Chronicle of Higher Education. 363 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,600 In there, you mentioned what we've, my fear is that we're encouraging young warriors to 364 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,280 study warrior traditions of the past that will lead them to become Rambo-like or to 365 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,640 embrace outrageous bigotries and out-of-date ideals. 366 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,520 The reason that line stuck with me is I can remember when I was going through basic training 367 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,640 and they taught us hand-to-hand combat. 368 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,440 The first thing that they taught us was how to rip a guy's face off. 369 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,480 I thought, wait a minute, this is not John Wayne. 370 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,320 I had this image of what I was supposed to be doing. 371 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,360 I was wondering, how do you feel that the media may have affected our newer military 372 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:38,360 personnel? 373 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:45,040 Well, of course, now today, in addition to films and TV presentations of war, they also 374 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,360 have these video games. 375 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:53,880 So they are getting, I guess what worries me the most is with the video games, they 376 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:59,640 have the sensation of shooting and killing people without any of the psychological or 377 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,160 emotional realities attached. 378 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:11,720 It can promote a kind of moral numbing, if you will, that they just don't associate death 379 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:17,880 and killing as they should with the end of individual human lives. 380 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:24,040 But they also still have movies that glorify war and skip over some of the hardships that 381 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,920 we've been talking about, which don't prepare them and don't get them to be thinking about 382 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,320 how they will handle their own transitions and how they will help their troops. 383 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:40,320 One of the things that is unique about where I teach is they're all going to be young officers. 384 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,280 So they're going to have subordinates who are looking to them for guidance as well. 385 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,200 So I have to think about that as we talk about these topics. 386 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:55,680 I think that when they look at the cultures of the past, interestingly, what they pick 387 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,600 out is not so much what I referred to in the article, the sort of Rambo-like kill, kill, 388 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,680 kill, but they do pick out the fact that these ancient warriors talked a lot about honor 389 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:12,800 and did seem to believe that there was a way to cross a line and no longer be a warrior. 390 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:19,400 I find it very fascinating that my midshipmen who have certain rules and regulations there 391 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,680 at the academy, they look at these ancient cultures and they feel like their current 392 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,520 culture doesn't restrict them enough. 393 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,840 They say that, look, here's a case where if a Roman soldier fell asleep when he was supposed 394 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,880 to be on watch, his fellow legionnaires stoned him to death. 395 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,000 It didn't take some outside force. 396 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,800 You have violated the sacred duty of looking after us while we sleep and we don't trust 397 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:49,800 you anymore. 398 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,160 So we're going to eliminate you ourselves. 399 00:27:53,160 --> 00:28:00,400 And they start talking about how these old cultures actually had very high standards. 400 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,800 And of course, you always find people flouting those standards in any tradition. 401 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,960 But the fact that they had them and in some cases did enforce them inspires them to think 402 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,240 in terms of, well, who do I want by my side? 403 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,000 Who do I want watching my back? 404 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,800 And maybe rather than just thinking in terms of kill, kill, kill, I need to think in terms 405 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:26,040 of who do I trust and what kind of character produces that trust. 406 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:32,640 If I could share one thing, my course would not work if I were not able to do one essential 407 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,880 thing and that's bring in people who have seen combat. 408 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,120 And I do that as often as possible. 409 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,720 And what I find is that they reinforce, held any prompting from me, they reinforce the 410 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:50,880 idea that you have to actually have some respect for your enemy. 411 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:56,840 You can't just be some kind of sadist who enjoys killing and that those kind of people 412 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,600 who do enjoy killing for its own sake don't belong in the military. 413 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,120 Shannon, I got a question for you. 414 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:12,400 You mentioned about the children and the games that they play now, the killing and without 415 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,240 repercussions. 416 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,480 How does that play out with the young people that you're teaching today? 417 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,440 Do you see any symptoms of that? 418 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,080 I'm afraid I do. 419 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,880 And I think the best example I can give is actually another person that I bring in to 420 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,480 speak to my, or he had brought in to speak to my classes who had seen combat. 421 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:44,840 He was a fighter pilot who had flown in the beginning of enduring freedom over in Afghanistan. 422 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:51,760 And I brought him to speak to my troops basically about that point because it was something 423 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,840 that he had worried about in having commanded pilots. 424 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:03,520 What he did was he brought a video that showed a lot of, well, need explosions. 425 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:04,520 And he played it. 426 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,720 And initially it was like a video game. 427 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:12,040 So the students sitting there in class are watching this, what turned out to be actual 428 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,520 footage of him hitting and bombing places. 429 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,400 And they would cheer every time there was an explosion just as you would in a game or 430 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,480 movie. 431 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,000 And he played along with this for a while and let them have that natural reaction. 432 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,000 Just, you know, wow, cool. 433 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,000 You know, that's awesome. 434 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,480 Look at us blow stuff up. 435 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,800 And then he slowed down one segment. 436 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,280 And he, it was in infrared. 437 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,000 And he pointed to some of the smaller objects in the infrared. 438 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,400 And he said, what are these smaller objects here? 439 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,520 And eventually one of the students would say, oh, people? 440 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,880 Yeah, that's right, he would say. 441 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,080 And then he'd point out that one of them was giving a much hotter signature than the others 442 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,920 and was moving around the screen very erratically. 443 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,160 He said, well, why is that one so much hotter than the others? 444 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:07,520 And eventually after a little pause, one of the students would say, because they're on 445 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:08,520 fire? 446 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:14,760 And then he would just fix them with this incredible look and just say, that's right. 447 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:15,760 You've been cheering. 448 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,560 I lived this. 449 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,160 That is a human being writhing in agony in flames. 450 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,000 And I caused that. 451 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,840 And I have to live with that. 452 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,160 And he would go from there and talk to them about consequences. 453 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,520 And his point was not that we shouldn't fight, that we shouldn't do some of these things 454 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:39,240 that must be done, but that you have to look it in the face and you can't pretend that 455 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,040 these are just blips on the screen. 456 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,560 That's a very powerful story. 457 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,360 I'm talking with Dr. Shannon French of the United States Naval Academy who teaches ethics 458 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:49,360 and leadership there. 459 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,640 I thought one of your other assignments that I was reading about was very interesting when 460 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:59,400 you asked your students to write a paper on what their moral values were and what the 461 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,640 ethics of war were and so forth. 462 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,400 And many of them came back that was wrong to kill innocent people and so forth. 463 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,360 But then you turned them around and said, okay, now you are the other guys, the bad 464 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,760 guys in this case. 465 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,360 What are your moral values here? 466 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,000 Where do you stand on these issues? 467 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,320 And I wish you could talk about that a little bit. 468 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:25,360 Well, you mentioned that I've taught a course called Know Your Enemy and I think that it 469 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:32,480 really is essential and all of the folks who study the psychology of those who fight come 470 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,960 to the same point that it really is important to understand as best you can of the people 471 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,460 that you are fighting. 472 00:32:38,460 --> 00:32:42,800 First of all, you have to understand that they are not animals or monsters, but that 473 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,600 they are humans. 474 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,560 And acknowledge that, acknowledge that you are taking human life because someday you 475 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,200 will realize it and better to acknowledge it sooner rather than later. 476 00:32:53,200 --> 00:33:01,600 But it's also very helpful to pause and consider why they might be acting the way they are, 477 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:07,840 what their motivations are and have that in mind as you judge your own or moderate your 478 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,480 own reactions. 479 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,280 And I find it very useful to do this exercise where I ask them to kind of creepy, but I 480 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:19,440 ask them to kind of get in the mind of a terrorist and imagine what would motivate them. 481 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:27,440 And one of the things that we recognize in that exercise is that you can imagine someone 482 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:36,680 having been convinced that if they feel some kind of revulsion or horror at what they are 483 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:42,320 about to do, that that's just a form of weakness and that their duty requires them to overcome 484 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,680 that weakness and do what's been asked of them. 485 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:54,080 So rather than being completely heartless and inhuman, they've been persuaded to ignore 486 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,520 part of their humanity for the purpose of their duty. 487 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:03,960 Now I don't do that exercise to make them sympathize per se with the terrorists or think 488 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:10,280 that that's okay, but for them to realize that what's going on in the mind of your 489 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:17,160 enemy is more complicated than you might have previously thought and to respect that allows 490 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:24,840 you to still do your job and kill them, but to do it without an overriding hate that can 491 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:25,840 actually damage you. 492 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,360 I mean, they're the ones I care about. 493 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:28,440 I don't care about the terrorists. 494 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,600 I care about my students. 495 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:38,680 And I don't want them going into a war thinking, I hate and I'm killing monsters because, boy, 496 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:45,920 there is so much evidence that that is damaging, that if you come out of a war feeling that 497 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:52,120 you weren't fighting humans, that you were fighting subhuman vermin or something, somehow 498 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,480 that strips it of some of the sense of honor. 499 00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:01,520 It removes, if you can say it this way, it removes some of the humanity from war itself. 500 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:07,760 War is inhuman, but it does have that struggle of man against man aspect to it and you want 501 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,160 to retain that. 502 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:14,880 And the ones who have the best recovery from post-traumatic stress are the warriors who 503 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:20,200 are able to on some level still respect their enemy. 504 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:21,440 It's a very fundamental level. 505 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:26,920 You still say what they're doing is absolutely wrong, but you can still see them as human 506 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,960 and perhaps understand how they came to do the wrong thing. 507 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:30,960 Right. 508 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,320 We're going to need to take another break and we've got a caller on the line that we'll 509 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,400 get to as soon as we get back from this next commercial. 510 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,600 After listening to Veterans Radio, we'll be right back in just a moment. 511 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,720 We're back on Veterans Radio. 512 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:49,040 We're talking to Dr. Shannon French, professor of ethics and leadership at the United States 513 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,160 Naval Academy and we've got a call from James in Fort Lauderdale. 514 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,720 James, welcome to Veterans Radio. 515 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:56,360 You had a question? 516 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:57,360 Good morning. 517 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,000 Thank you for having my call. 518 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,120 I thought the conversation was very interesting. 519 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,320 I did want to pass up the opportunity without some sort of comment. 520 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:05,320 Yes. 521 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:10,440 I'm a Marine and I was in the first Persian Gulf War. 522 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:16,760 I noticed that the doctor was talking about transition programs and that sparked my interest. 523 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:25,760 I just wanted to comment that a transition program is very important because of the fact 524 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,320 that you're just near violence all the time. 525 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:36,080 If I were to use an analogy of negative and positive feeling just to make my argument 526 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:42,760 that there's so much negative feeling that goes on that it has to be compensated positive 527 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:43,760 feeling. 528 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:50,960 I think the way to do that when you return is to... The doctor mentioned this a little 529 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:58,880 bit concerning the Romans in their history, concerning some sort of purification or what 530 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,520 Catholics call his penance. 531 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,480 I don't mean that in a bad way. 532 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:10,960 I mean that more in a way of regenerating your life by offering your services to others 533 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:16,040 in terms of volunteer acts or acts of kindness toward others over a long period of time, 534 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,200 which helps. 535 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:25,440 These things readjust psychology in the body, the mind, and the health. 536 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:31,360 It helps in terms of thinking about what you've been through and how you serve your country, 537 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:39,000 puts it all back in perspective again, and that's what... That requires time. 538 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,000 That's what I wanted to say. 539 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,000 Thank you very much, James. 540 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,000 Thank you. 541 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,000 Well, yes, thank you. 542 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:49,560 In fact, just to really echo your excellent points there, I would say that I think it's 543 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:56,840 a shame sometimes people are loath to recommend some kind of purification or spiritual renewal 544 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:02,200 or any such transition for warriors because they're afraid that it might sound like it's 545 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,200 some kind of punishment. 546 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,160 It would seem like, well, here you've already given so much. 547 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,320 Now come to a service project and it just seems... On some level, you can say, well, 548 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,320 that's crazy. 549 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,560 How could they serve any more than they have? 550 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:20,080 What you're pointing out and what I've had many veterans tell me is that it isn't a punishment. 551 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:21,080 It's a gift. 552 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:28,880 It's an opportunity for them to, as you put it so well, to embrace some of the positive 553 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:36,120 side, the positive feelings that are also in them and turn away from the more negative 554 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:41,880 feelings that they had to be around and the negative experiences they had to go through. 555 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:42,880 You're giving them that chance. 556 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:49,960 You're giving them that opportunity to really remind themselves of the full range that they 557 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,600 are capable of and that, yes, they may be capable of taking lives, but, wow, they're 558 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,800 also capable of saving them and they're capable of improving lives. 559 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,920 By the end, they come full circle and they realize that even in the process of taking 560 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,680 lives, they were doing that for what they perceived as an end that would improve lives 561 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:13,920 so that it all in the end came from something positive in them, a spirit of service. 562 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:19,520 Shannon, how has the ethics of war changed from, say, World War II to the present? 563 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:28,440 Well, of course, the technologies have changed and in one sense, it's cut towards more precision. 564 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,600 When you look at World War II, even though in most of our language, we tend to think 565 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:41,520 of it as the good war or a more morally less ambiguous war, there was a lot of carpet bombing 566 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:46,880 and use of weapons, well, even, of course, a nuclear weapon that were very indiscriminate 567 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,440 and killed a lot of civilians. 568 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,640 Now we have the technology to be more precise, certainly not perfect, a lot of collateral 569 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,600 damage, but nothing like we saw in World War II. 570 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:08,760 I think the difference of having an all volunteer force versus a mix of volunteers and draftees 571 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:09,760 is a change. 572 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,440 I'm not sure the full ramifications of that, but someone ought to study that. 573 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,880 That's not something I've studied. 574 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:22,320 And I think also, you do have this difference I mentioned before of we're fighting non-state 575 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:28,440 actors, which does make it much more complicated because you don't have that reciprocity piece. 576 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,280 You can't trust that if we treat them this way, they'll treat our prisoners that way. 577 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,920 In fact, you pretty much have to count on the opposite that no matter how well we hold 578 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:44,720 by our code, they will not hold by a similar code and they try to use ours against us. 579 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:49,880 A question that goes a little bit along with that is that during World War II, of course, 580 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,960 we heard the stories and things about the atrocities of the Japanese placed on our prisoners of 581 00:40:54,960 --> 00:41:02,160 war versus vice versa the way we treated their prisoners of war. 582 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,360 You think that you're fighting with civilized people, but it gets out of hand and the question 583 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,440 of ethics and morality always seems to come into play, don't you think? 584 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:11,760 Of course it does. 585 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:18,760 I think that the most profound lesson that I try to get my students to recognize and 586 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:24,040 that they hear from, again, these combat veterans that I bring in to speak to them, 587 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,760 is that you can't put your morality in the hands of your enemy. 588 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,560 What I mean by that is you can't control what they're going to do. 589 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,120 You can't control what their values are. 590 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,800 It should never be that they set your compass. 591 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,880 If you are fighting terrorists, you know that they're going to do things that we consider 592 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:49,880 very far over the line, but that doesn't justify us going over the line because the point of 593 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:56,440 our rules is to be true to our values and we don't want to say to them, hey, you set 594 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,880 the level and we'll lower ourselves to your level. 595 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,920 We can't do that for our own sake because it's far too important and it's not fair 596 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,720 to our troops to ask them to become terrorists for us. 597 00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:13,280 You made an interesting point right there where we would lower our standards to meet 598 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:14,280 theirs. 599 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:20,040 I think that's probably an ongoing issue with all of our soldiers and everybody overseas 600 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,040 right now. 601 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:27,120 I think we like to hold ourselves to a different, our view of what we think the world should 602 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,000 be. 603 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,880 When we run up against those issues where they don't necessarily fight the same way 604 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,200 we do or they're more barbaric than we think they should be, that causes a lot of problems, 605 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:39,200 I would think. 606 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:44,440 It's incredibly difficult and that's again something you see historically whenever a 607 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:51,560 culture that has more rules, it fights one that has fewer or any kind of asymmetric conflict 608 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:57,680 where you have guerrilla type fighting, the temptation is incredibly strong to say, well 609 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:02,520 then let's say all bets are off, no rules. 610 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,080 They're not fighting with rules so we're not going to fight with rules. 611 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:11,520 But historically and certainly it's true now too, that doesn't pay off and the reason 612 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,280 it doesn't pay off is you're betraying your own values. 613 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,480 Again, in the end it doesn't matter what the enemy is doing. 614 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:22,000 You have to make sure that when it's back to the transition point, you have to make 615 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,640 sure that when you're done fighting, you fit back into the society that you left and that 616 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,360 it's the society that you were fighting for. 617 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:35,920 You haven't damaged it too much by the actions that you were forced to take. 618 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:42,960 So I think that what we look at in places like Iraq is our troops really having to put 619 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:49,440 themselves at greater risk in many cases and they do it willingly in order to preserve 620 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,640 our for example combat and noncombatant distinction. 621 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,320 They will fire warning shots. 622 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:59,760 They will do their best to try to determine whether this is a legitimate target. 623 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:00,760 Do they make mistakes? 624 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:01,760 Of course. 625 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,520 They're human and the enemy is trying to make them make mistakes, so of course they 626 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:07,520 will. 627 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,640 But that's a thousand million times better than just saying we're not going to try. 628 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:12,640 Right. 629 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,160 I agree and the other thing is that the civilians that are caught in the middle of these conflicts 630 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,560 sometimes, who are you more afraid of? 631 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,720 I can't take that. 632 00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:24,360 I don't know for sure. 633 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,440 We may threaten them and all those other things but the other bad guys may just shoot 634 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,720 them to make a point. 635 00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:39,240 I think that you do see when we have reporters go in there and talk to the people, whatever 636 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:45,520 their views are on feeling that it's an occupation and wanting the troops out, there is a sense 637 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:52,360 of respect in most cases and you even see that in the recent controversy of the Black 638 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:53,360 Water. 639 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,360 Right, the contractors. 640 00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:00,480 Yeah, the contractors who some have accused of behaving more like mercenaries and not 641 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:06,160 having the same rules, that contrast only comes forward because they're used to seeing 642 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,000 the Americans use restraint. 643 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,640 Otherwise, they would just say, well, obviously that's how Americans act but they're not 644 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:13,640 saying that. 645 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:14,640 They're saying these guys are different. 646 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:15,640 Now, I don't know. 647 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:16,640 We don't have all the facts in. 648 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:21,520 I don't know how that's going to turn out to be judged but the point is that to even 649 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:30,000 say that we expect, these are folks who are in the horror of this daily threat in Baghdad 650 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:35,720 and other parts of Iraq who are still saying we've come to expect something else from America. 651 00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:36,720 Right. 652 00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:37,720 That's good. 653 00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:38,720 It is good. 654 00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:39,720 It is good that we think about it. 655 00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:42,480 Actually, we have a thought that says, wait a minute, let's think about this for that 656 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:43,480 mini-second. 657 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,720 We've gone through another hour already and it just is fascinating. 658 00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:52,400 Dr. French, I want to thank you so very much for being on Veterans Radio and the opportunity. 659 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,280 Is there any final comment that you would like to make? 660 00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:01,800 I would only say that one of the great speakers that I had come in was a Medal of Honor winner, 661 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:02,800 Sergeant Sammy Davis. 662 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:09,240 I'll never forget that he told my students that as officers, their number one responsibility 663 00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:12,840 was to safeguard the humanity of the troops under them. 664 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:13,840 Absolutely. 665 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:14,840 On a good note. 666 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,000 We've been talking with Dr. Shannon French, who is a professor at the United States Naval 667 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,800 Academy in Ethics and Leadership. 668 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:26,040 One book I know of is the Code of the Warrior, Exploring Warrior Values Past and Present, 669 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,280 and you've got a new one that's called... 670 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:33,000 Well, I'm still working on that one, but it's going to be on Sacrifice, and the title 671 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,120 may be Sacrifice in Society. 672 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,120 Okay. 673 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:37,120 Well, that's great. 674 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,120 Thank you very much, Dr. French. 675 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,600 Well, thank you, and may I just say broadly, thanks to all the Veterans and all those who 676 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:43,600 are serving. 677 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:44,600 Thank you very much. 678 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:45,600 We'll be talking to you again, I promise. 679 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:46,600 Okay. 680 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:47,600 Thank you. 681 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:48,600 Bye-bye. 682 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:49,600 Wow. 683 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:50,600 Ken, that was... 684 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:56,320 That's fascinating information, and I would strongly encourage any of you out there listening 685 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,600 to Veteran or active duty right now to go and find the book on the Code of the Warrior. 686 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,400 Just punch her name in. 687 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:10,840 It's Shannon French, S-H-A-N-N-O-N French into Google, and her articles will come up, 688 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,440 and I think you'll find it very helpful just to you. 689 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,160 And I know it was helpful to me, too. 690 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:21,400 I think the warriors today are really in a dilemma when they get into these situations, 691 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,040 but they don't know who the enemy is. 692 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,480 I mean, World War II, it was pretty cut and dried. 693 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,800 The guy on the other side was an enemy, and you shot him. 694 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,600 But now, you don't know who your enemy is. 695 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,680 It's similar to Vietnam, where even little kids would have bombs trapped to them as 696 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:39,680 sacrifices. 697 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,120 That's very true, and unfortunately, yeah, we didn't know who the bad guys were, and 698 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:45,520 you made mistakes. 699 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,720 And welcome back. 700 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,240 See, I told you. 701 00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:52,720 I thought I think you had to really enjoy that interview. 702 00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:53,720 I hope so. 703 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:59,520 I struck a lot of really important points about what it is like to be in the military, and 704 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,320 those ethical decisions that we all have to make when we were there or those of you 705 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,640 that are going to be going into the service sometime soon, you never know when you're 706 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:11,200 going to have to make these decisions. 707 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:16,600 And I think we like to think that we are them, you know, we're the moral guys. 708 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:22,040 We play by the rules, and in today's world, most of our enemies do not play by those 709 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:23,040 rules. 710 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:29,600 So, I encourage you to, you know, read this book, The Code of the Warrior, Exploring Warrior 711 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,440 of Values Past and Present, and she's also got an updated version of it. 712 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,680 And again, it's called The Code of the Warrior. 713 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:36,840 It's the second edition. 714 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,840 Both of these books are available on Amazon. 715 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:46,720 I think they're just important for all of us to read it at some point in our careers 716 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:48,220 and in our lives. 717 00:48:48,220 --> 00:48:51,080 So I hope, again, I hope you enjoy that program. 718 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,000 And so this is Dale Throneberry. 719 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,000 We are going to go out. 720 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:55,000 Oh, I forgot. 721 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,920 We're going to go out listening to a song from Michael J. Martin and Tim Holloway. 722 00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:03,520 It's called The Last Warrior, which I thought was rather appropriate. 723 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,920 So I'm hoping that you will enjoy that tune. 724 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:11,680 Until then, actually, until next week, this is Dale Throneberry for all of us here at 725 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:12,680 Veterans Radio. 726 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,560 I hope that you have a safe and peaceful 4th of July. 727 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,840 If you don't like fireworks, don't go out and listen to them. 728 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:20,840 Okay? 729 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:21,840 Okay. 730 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,080 So again, Dale Throneberry, all of us here at Veterans Radio. 731 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:49,080 Until next week, you are dismissed. 732 00:49:49,080 --> 00:50:14,900 Thank you for watching. 733 00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:20,900 Who's gonna fend in the face of the flight? 734 00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:27,900 Who's gonna write all the wrong? 735 00:50:30,900 --> 00:50:35,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 736 00:50:35,900 --> 00:50:43,900 When the last warrior is gone? 737 00:50:46,900 --> 00:50:51,900 Who's gonna hang tough? 738 00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:58,900 When it's down to the skin and the bones? 739 00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:06,900 And who's gonna call their blood? 740 00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:11,900 Who's gonna take them all on? 741 00:51:12,900 --> 00:51:18,900 And when the world is rolled over with ecstalia 742 00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:28,900 There ain't nothing to compromise on 743 00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:35,900 Who's gonna say enough is enough 744 00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:42,900 When the last warrior is gone? 745 00:51:42,900 --> 00:51:50,900 Who's gonna cross the line? 746 00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:57,900 When the last line is finally drawn? 747 00:51:58,900 --> 00:52:04,900 And who's gonna keep on trying? 748 00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:10,900 When they're claiming they've already won? 749 00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:14,900 And when there ain't no more freedom 750 00:52:14,900 --> 00:52:17,900 And there ain't no more rights? 751 00:52:18,900 --> 00:52:25,900 And it's down to defending our own 752 00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:33,900 Who's gonna lay down his life? 753 00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:40,900 Doing what has to be done 754 00:52:44,900 --> 00:52:50,900 Who's gonna live out his life? 755 00:52:51,900 --> 00:52:56,900 Doing what has to be done 756 00:52:56,900 --> 00:53:06,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 757 00:53:06,900 --> 00:53:26,900 When the last warrior is gone? 758 00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:16,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 759 00:54:17,900 --> 00:54:27,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 760 00:54:27,900 --> 00:54:37,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 761 00:54:37,900 --> 00:54:59,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 762 00:54:59,900 --> 00:55:09,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 763 00:55:29,900 --> 00:55:40,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 764 00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:09,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 765 00:56:29,900 --> 00:56:39,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 766 00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:50,900 Who's gonna fight the fight? 767 00:56:50,900 --> 00:57:00,900 Who's gonna fight the fight?