1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,800 Veterans Radio has a partnership with Literature of War Foundation to exchange podcast content 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:12,800 to reach a wider audience regarding issues of interest to veterans, family, and friends. 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:19,520 You can find more about Literature of War Foundation at its website, litofwar.com. 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:25,840 You can find more about Veterans Radio on Facebook or its website, veteransradio.org. 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:33,520 I am Jim Foss Hone, a host of Veterans Radio and a Veterans Disability Lawyer at LegalHelpforVeterans.com, 6 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,320 a sponsor of this podcast. 7 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:42,640 In today's episode, Literature of War Foundation is talking to New York Times bestselling author 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:49,040 Sebastian Younger. He's talking about the healing power of having a stage with an audience that is 9 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:55,600 willing to listen and his new book in My Time of Dying. He's a New York Times bestselling author. 10 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:03,200 He wrote Tribe War Freedom, A Death in Belmont, Fire, and also wrote The Perfect Storm. 11 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:11,600 He's been a co-director of the documentary film Rest Repo, which was nominated for an Academy Award. 12 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,080 He's also a winner of a Peabody Award and the National Magazine Award for Reporting. 13 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,720 So enjoy this podcast from Literature of War. 14 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,480 Welcome to the Lit War Podcast by Lethal Minds Journal, where we seek out the moments that made 15 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,840 us who we are today one story at a time. I'm your host, Michael Jerome Plunkett, 16 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:45,200 and my guest today is bestselling author and award-winning journalist Sebastian Younger. 17 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:51,040 Sebastian has spent a career covering everything from the most dangerous jobs in America to major 18 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:57,120 international news stories around the world. His work examines the complexities of military service 19 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:04,080 and why so many people miss the war once they come home. He is also the founder of Vets Town Hall, 20 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,640 which seeks to give veterans of any era a chance to stand before their community 21 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:14,400 and speak about what it was like to serve their country. He is the bestselling author of The 22 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:24,560 Perfect Storm, War, Tribe, Freedom, and Coming in May of 2024 in My Time of Dying. He joins us today with a story. 23 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,600 Sebastian Younger, welcome to the Lit War Podcast. Do you have a story for us? 24 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,600 Yeah, do you want a story about myself or just a story from the world somewhere? 25 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,880 The most important moment of your life, putting you on the spot. 26 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:52,320 You know, I'm going to have to go with two. At both ends of my life, I'm 61, and the things that 27 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:58,320 are important and that change you and affect you, they change as you go through your ages. 28 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:05,600 You know, and I think one of the most important moments of my life was when my father, my father 29 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:11,360 was an upper middle class European from a sort of intellectual background. His dad was Jewish, 30 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,320 and they fled Europe when the when the Fascists started taking over everything. They came into 31 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:23,360 Spain in 36 and then to France in 40, and he came to this country because, as he said, 32 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:30,240 the Fascists would never come here. And he was so smart guy, made a good living, and he was pretty 33 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:38,800 affluent, and we lived well, right? And at one point, we had a friend who was a stockbroker 34 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:43,680 who made enormous amounts of money, right? And this was like maybe 1970. And I was a child, 35 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,920 and I was very impressed by money, and I said something to my dad, like, oh my God, what's 36 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:55,600 Jack do, whatever, whatever his name was. And he goes, oh, Jack just spends his life making money. 37 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,920 And I was like, wait, I thought that was the points, right? He's like, no, no, no, money, 38 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:07,360 he's like, if money is the least interesting thing in the world, like if you're making money 39 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:14,160 and not doing something else that's real with your life, you're not really living, it's a wasted life. 40 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:20,480 And I never forgot that. Like, I mean, my father was affluent, you know, he wanted to be comfortable, 41 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:26,640 but he never made the mistake that money was the point. And I took that with me through my whole 42 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:34,320 life. And I'm very lucky to live comfortably as well. I made a good living as a writer, and I'm 43 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:39,040 glad I'm not working for eight bucks an hour somewhere, of course, right? But you had the end 44 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,960 of the day, what are we alive for? Right, we're, you know, we're alive to love other people, to be 45 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:51,520 loved, to help other people, to help human dignity, to understand existence, you know, and money has 46 00:04:51,520 --> 00:05:01,600 nothing to do with those things. And at the very end of my life, until now, I almost died. I had 47 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:09,840 a ruptured aneurysm that almost killed me. And I saw my father hovering above me as I was dying, 48 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:15,040 and they managed to save me. But there he was. And I'm an atheist. I'm a rationalist. I'm not 49 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:21,600 only am I not a mystic, I can say I'm an anti-mystic, like I just hate all that stuff, right? And 50 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:28,800 there he was. And it made me realize this other important thing, like, careful, you don't know 51 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,680 everything. Like, you may know nothing. Like, keep your mind open to all things. 52 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:41,040 Right. Wow. That's, so now, to take that a step further, that experience, that near-death experience 53 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:48,400 that you described, and seeing your father, did that rattle your rational beliefs? I mean, you 54 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,440 say that, like, you know, it's kind of a moment of recognition of like, you don't know everything, 55 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,800 but did that change the way you looked at it? Or are you still, do you still consider yourself an 56 00:05:54,800 --> 00:06:04,320 atheist? Well, it's interesting. People blend the idea of there being a god with there being 57 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,240 something that happens after death. They're completely different things. And there could 58 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:14,240 be a post-death reality and no god, right? Or there could be a god that oversees a completely 59 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,600 physical world in which we're just biological beings, and we utterly and completely ceased 60 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:25,200 existing in every form when we die, even though there's a god, right? So there really are different 61 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:33,680 things. So what I would say is, I am an atheist. I do not believe in God. It does not order my life. 62 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:43,600 It does not change that effect when I do. And I don't think that's a plausible explanation for 63 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:53,600 how the universe works and got started, right? But now I'm not, I realize I'm, oh, I thought, 64 00:06:53,600 --> 00:07:01,200 I thought I knew that when we die, that's it forever. We are biological beings. And when we rot 65 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:07,280 and decompose, we are no longer, right? And as a journalist, I've seen people who were dead an hour. 66 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:11,680 I've seen people who were dead a week. I've seen people who were dead a month or three months. 67 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:20,000 And, you know, at all those stages, it's hard not to think, wow, there's nothing else. Like, 68 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:25,680 that's it, right? And particularly at three months, you're like, wow, I'm not even sure that's a body. 69 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,720 You know, it's the idea that we continue existing just seems implausible. But now I have to say, 70 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:36,160 because of what I experienced with my father, I don't know. And it's possible that in physical terms, 71 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:45,120 or in subatomic terms, that there is some reality post death that we just do not understand, 72 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:52,080 that has something to do with how the universe was formed at an atomic level, right? Like, 73 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:57,360 this is talking about the physical nature of the universe, like the way gravity has nothing to do 74 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:04,160 with God, right? Gravity is an elemental force, right? Well, likewise, consciousness may have 75 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,640 nothing to do with God, it might be a fundamental force in the universe like gravity is. 76 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,400 Well, I mean, I think that's a really balanced perspective, you know, so often a discussion 77 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,240 like that can go like one of two ways is like you can everybody's already in agreement with 78 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,720 each other or everybody's at each other's throats within, you know, a couple of minutes of putting 79 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,880 those opinions out there. But I think, like you said, your experience as a journalist, you end up 80 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,520 and you've lived at the extreme ends of the world in a variety of different situations with all 81 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,400 your different books and all your different experiences. But it's true when you see, when 82 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:41,280 you experience death in that way up close and personal, you know, for my personal experience 83 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,840 is working on an emergency ambulance, you know, transporting to emergency scenes, it's like, 84 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,200 you really begin to, I mean, just doing two months of that, I was like, I had to reconsider a lot 85 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,920 of my own opinions about death and about life too, right? Like the idea of when does life start? 86 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:01,360 When you have, there's so many complications that our bodies are so strange. And I think I feel like 87 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,640 it's one of those things where if you've not seen that in some form or another, you can get very 88 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:13,840 comfortable in a certain worldview, but seeing being exposed to that over and over again, can really 89 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:19,600 rattle that cage. I mean, do you feel like your experiences as a writer have cemented some of that 90 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,720 or kind of brought that to the surface or when did that experience kind of, when do you, when do 91 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,960 you form those kind of beliefs? Well, I, you know, I grew up in a godless household, right? I mean, 92 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:36,400 I was raised by an artist and a physicist and we never went to church. And my father, who was an 93 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:44,880 enormously compassionate, beautiful man, morally speaking, had absolutely no use for religion or 94 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,920 for God, and in fact, thought that those, that religion was the source of an awful lot of conflict 95 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:55,760 and death and destruction in the world. And we're seeing a little bit of it right now overseas, 96 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:03,280 obviously, and Israel. And so, you know, I just never thought about it. I'm just like, okay, 97 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:09,600 this is what we get. We're social primates, right? We have the exact same sort of quote after life 98 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:15,360 that chimpanzees do or lions might or ants do, like what we're made out of biology, right? And 99 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:22,560 so when we go, we go and thank God, I mean, imagine an eternity of consciousness. I could barely get 100 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:28,240 through math class in eighth grade. Are you kidding? You don't want me to stay awake for eternity? No 101 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:37,040 exit? No way out? I can't even get kicked out of class. Like, Jesus, I forgive the, forgive the 102 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:42,320 use of the Lord's name, but Jesus Christ, like, I don't want that. Who wants that, right? So, 103 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:50,480 you know, I was, I just grew up not thinking about it and concentrating on my life as I was living it. 104 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:57,920 And so now I'm thinking, okay, well, you know, in 1900, the physicists didn't understand the subatomic 105 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:04,800 world and the quantum world, right? And then they eventually found out it made no sense in 106 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:13,200 in macroscopic terms, right? All of this, the sort of law in Newton's laws, right? 107 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:21,040 So Newtonian era laws of physics didn't apply at the subatomic level. And, you know, likewise, 108 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:27,040 you know, maybe, maybe there's something going on after we die at that subatomic level that we just 109 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:32,000 do not understand. And there's some, there's an awful lot of weirdness. I mean, there's something 110 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,480 called the double slit experiment. And I shouldn't talk about this too much, because my book's coming 111 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,880 out in six months, and I can't ruin the, I can't ruin the party for my publisher. But I'll, I'll 112 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,840 sort of end with this, just as a, as a sort of an enigmatic thing that to think about, like, 113 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:51,280 in case we think we know everything, this has been, it's been demonstrated many, many times that if 114 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:58,880 you send a photon at two slits, and you don't watch it, you don't observe it, it will go through 115 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,840 both slits at the same time. Basically, you walking through two doorways simultaneously, 116 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:09,120 impossible in the macroscopic world, right? And it will, it will, and you can see that from the 117 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,040 strike plate on the other side, the signature on the strike plate on the other side. If you watch 118 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:20,880 it, if you, if you observe it, there's conscious observation, the photon has to pick one slit 119 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:26,240 and goes through one, right? Otherwise, it does something that should not be possible 120 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,760 in terms of Newtonian physics. So there's a great mystery, right? And we, and, and so 121 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,960 if that great mystery applies to what happens after we die, it wouldn't, it wouldn't shock me. 122 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,760 Wow. Yeah, I've heard of that experiment before. It's a very, very famous experiment about the 123 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:49,120 observable world. And like you said, the mystery that really is, is beyond that, what we can see 124 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:54,400 and what we can't see and what we can understand and what is yet to be understood. And so, so just 125 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,360 when is, when is your new book, what's it called and when is it coming out? 126 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:03,280 It's called In My Time of Dying from the old gospel song. How's that for an old atheist? 127 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:12,080 Gospel song and Led Zeppelin song, okay? Like, that's to be clear here. In My Time of Dying, 128 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:17,440 it will come out May 21st with Simon and Schuster. Awesome. Very much looking forward to, 129 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,440 we've spoken about that a couple of times now and I'm very much looking forward to 130 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:26,880 to reading that and we'll make sure we get the word out about that. But maybe to switch gears here 131 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,440 a little bit. Today, I want to talk about a specific moment in another one of your books, 132 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,400 Tribe on Homecoming and Belonging, a book that I've read several times and I think there is a 133 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:42,160 tremendous amount to be taken away from and kind of sit with. And, you know, this is a book that's 134 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:47,440 about the power of sitting in communion with one another kind of, as you said before, there's a 135 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,000 lot of conflict going on in the world right now as we're talking here, multiple different countries 136 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:57,680 involved. And it doesn't seem to be slowing down any anytime soon. Here in the United States, we've 137 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:06,560 had unparalleled, you know, animosity amongst amongst our citizens, fellow countrymen, like, 138 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:11,360 you know, in a way that really hasn't been seen probably since arguably the 60s, if not even 139 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:18,320 earlier than that. There's a moment in Tribe very close to the end where you describe an experience 140 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:25,440 with the author Carl Marlantis, who is a Vietnam War veteran, also an author. And you talk about 141 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,520 an experience that you had when the two of you were having some type of speaking event. 142 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,240 Can you talk a little bit about that experience and what happened? 143 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:39,280 Yeah, if I'm remembering correctly, you know, I actually should have reread that section and 144 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:50,000 I forgot to in the chaos of my life. But there was Carl and I were talking, and I think the topic 145 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:56,560 had sort of turned to this puzzling thing, like why do soldiers war as hell as the cliche goes? 146 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:07,520 And indeed it is. But it's a lot of things, and not just hell. And we were sort of, the talks 147 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:13,200 sort of turned to like why do soldiers sometimes miss war? Very many soldiers often miss war. 148 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,480 And often they come home to this society that I'm sure they miss. They miss their families and 149 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,280 their girlfriends and, you know, go into Burger King or whatever. And then now, you know, they're 150 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,760 back here they are, you got it. Man, you made it home, you're alive. Congratulations. Like, here 151 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:34,560 you are. And they don't feel like they have a place. They don't feel like they want to be here. 152 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:40,480 What is that? And, you know, there's some real reasons, right? I mean, there's some interesting 153 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,600 reasons that reflect what we need as human beings and mostly we need closeness. And you get an 154 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,600 awful lot of closeness in war. And then when you come back, there's less of it. And on some level, 155 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:58,480 you know, I think that the human psyche is like, you know what, the trials and assaults the human 156 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:06,640 dignity that war is, is actually worth it to get the closeness that we all need. And this safe 157 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:13,200 society like that is absent all of those horrors, it's also absent any real human closeness, any 158 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,880 real community. And you know what, I'm not interested. And that's a very, it says a lot about what we 159 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:24,400 are as social privates, right? What kind of animals we are. Well, this gentleman got up and he was 160 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:30,240 very, very upset. I mean, really in a rage that we would suggest that soldiers missed war. And he 161 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:35,600 stormed out of the room. And, or something very much like that, again, I'm sort of going from 162 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:44,160 memory here for something that happened many years ago. But Carl, you know, Carl was, you know, 163 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,760 he was very, I mean, I was sort of annoyed, right? I mean, it's like, come on, man, this is a, 164 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:56,640 you know, there's no room for rage here. Like, I mean, I mean, this is a collection of peaceful 165 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,440 people, we're just having a conversation. Don't bring that in here. I didn't say that is what I 166 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:09,200 thought. Right. And Carl was basically like, yeah, that's war too. Like, you know, you go to war, 167 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,680 you're going to get some people that are really angry, like, sorry, that's part of the package. 168 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,520 Right. Along with everyone who was saluting and proudly talking about their service, 169 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,520 you're going to get that guy too. You know what? So you're either in for the whole package or 170 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:28,160 you're not. But don't be selective about what, you know, what parts of this you find to your taste. 171 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,440 Right. Now, and the assumption here, I don't know if you caught up with that gentleman or 172 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,720 if he was waiting in the lobby for you when you were leaving, but the assumption that was that 173 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,760 he was a veteran as well, that he was. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Carl said, yeah, of course, 174 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,760 Carl said that he's probably, you know, he was of the age where he could have been a Vietnam 175 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,000 vet. He also was of the age where he could have been a Vietnam conscientious objector. 176 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:55,040 Right. And equally outraged at the suggestion. Right. So it really could have gone either way. 177 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,200 I didn't talk about that with Carl, but in retrospect now, I'm like, wow, it could have been either. 178 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,920 Right. I mean, it's interesting, right? Because you've got, so both you and Carl had experienced 179 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:11,360 war. Carl was a Marine Corps Lieutenant Rifleman leading a rifle platoon in Vietnam. 180 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:16,880 You were embedded with infantry units during a war. You're not a veteran yourself, but you 181 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:22,000 experienced war as close as a person can experience it in some of the most intense 182 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:28,880 fighting of the war in Afghanistan. Now, and if we assume that this individual was a veteran 183 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,480 himself and experienced war in his own ways, I mean, I think there's something to unpack there 184 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,920 in the sense that we've got three individuals and the crowd as well, who was listening to this. 185 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,720 But three individuals who experienced the thing they're all talking about and three or two rather 186 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:49,440 very distinct reactions to it. Now, you kind of, and in tribe, you use this experience to kind of 187 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:55,360 open up a broader concept of people speaking with each other, right? Not just being in communion 188 00:18:55,360 --> 00:19:00,240 with one another, but communicating effectively. Was that the impetus for starting that's town hall? 189 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,760 Yeah. So, you know, I started anthropology in college and it sort of struck me that, you know, 190 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:12,720 there was all this talk and rightfully so this talk about trauma. And we were seeing people who 191 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:19,280 were really incapacitated by war time trauma. And I just sort of as an anthropologist, 192 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:24,640 I just sort of trained as anthropologists, I just sort of thought like, 193 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,400 that's odd. Like human life surely has been extremely traumatic since the beginning. 194 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:35,840 There are very dangerous predators out there. Warfare has been part of the human experience 195 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:41,200 from the beginning. The natural world is a harsh place and we, you know, we evolved in it for hundreds 196 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:48,640 of thousands of years. It can't be that trauma is incapacitating. Because if it were, the human 197 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,920 race wouldn't exist. Like give me a break. Like I'm asked to do on charges through camp and kills, 198 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,480 you know, you know, like whatever. Like, and then everyone's paralyzed with, you know, like grief 199 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:04,480 and trauma for this or lives. Who's feeding these people? Like who's like, come on, I do not believe 200 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:11,040 it. Right. And, and so, and it's not that I thought people were exaggerating their claim, although I 201 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:16,240 think sometimes people do that. Sometimes people do everything, right. But I feel like 202 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,160 I think the people that were really were suffering when they came back from the wars that America 203 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,800 was in. It occurred to me that maybe what went apart of their suffering wasn't just the trauma 204 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,680 that they experienced. I've experienced trauma. It affected me enormously. It didn't incapacitate me. 205 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,560 As a private citizen, I was a journalist overseas. I couldn't go to government to get a disability 206 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,800 check. I, you know, it went away, right. It's like when you lose a good friend, when they die, 207 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,800 yeah, you're paralyzed with grief for a week and then very sad for a month. And then you think 208 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,360 about them a lot for a year. And 20 years later, I'm sorry, you've moved on, right. You're not 209 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:54,640 still sobbing on a couch except for once in a while, right. And maybe on the universe, you know, 210 00:20:54,640 --> 00:21:01,680 but people are adapted to recover from things, from terrible things. And so what it may be is that 211 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,880 in the military, you're traumatized in a group. You're in a unit, right. You're in a squad. You're 212 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:14,000 in a platoon. And then you come home. And for most of human history, people have come home from combat 213 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:20,480 and continued the healing process in and amongst the group that they were in combat with. 214 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,960 Not in this society. You're in and amongst people who don't have any idea what you went through, 215 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:31,920 right. One of the ways that the Native American societies in North America dealt with some of 216 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,360 this was to allow warriors the chance to address the entire community when they got back from 217 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:43,040 fighting, right. It was called the Gord dance. It was, it was started with the Kiowa, a Southern 218 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:50,480 Plains tribe, but sort of spread everywhere. And, you know, basically when the warriors came back 219 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:56,960 from combat, they had the chance, each warrior had the chance to sing, to dance, to retell his exploits 220 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:03,840 before the tribe, for the community, what he did for them, right. The people he killed for them, 221 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:09,520 the people he lost for them, the wounds he suffered, the risks he took, the pride he feels in his 222 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,640 service, the sorrow he feels, you know, et cetera, right. His anger at the leaders, you know, whatever, 223 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:20,320 right. And not only does it allow for a very powerful cathartic experience by, 224 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:28,080 for the, for the veteran, for the, for the warrior, but it forces, allows slash forces, 225 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:34,800 the whole community to engage, to take moral responsibility for the fighting. This isn't 226 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:40,240 just mine. This is all of ours. I did this for you. I have blood on my hands. I lost my brother 227 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,360 out there. Like that means we all have blood on our hands. We all lost brother. This is, we're 228 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,280 all in this, if you're going to send me out there to do this work, I'll gladly do it with honor, 229 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:55,440 right, with pride. But it better be, the, the, the, the moral responsibility and the emotional 230 00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,880 fallout had better be taken, undertaken by everybody. The problem with the mass industrial 231 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,160 society is that we don't know any of the people that are keeping us alive, right. We don't, I don't, 232 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,320 I don't know any oil workers that drill oil out of the ground that keep my apartment warm and my 233 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,320 car running, right. I don't know any farmers that grew the wheat that I'm eating. Like, 234 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,480 none of us know any of these people, right. And we don't, a lot of people don't know the soldiers 235 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:26,160 that are keeping us safe, right. And, and so that is not, that has not been true for most of human 236 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:33,120 history. This is a new situation. So what veteran, what vets town hall tries to do is on Veterans Day, 237 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:37,280 the town halls are not open for business. There's a parade and whatnot, which is great, 238 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,320 but whatever, I don't think it has a lot of therapeutic value. But what you can do, it costs 239 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:48,720 absolutely no money. You just have to organize it. And you can go onto our website, vets townhall.org, 240 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:54,160 for a very, very simple sort of best practices about how to do this process. You open up the 241 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:59,520 town hall, you turn on the PA system, you send out announcements, you send out word that you're 242 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:06,080 doing this, and any veteran of any war who served in any capacity has the right to stand up and speak 243 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:13,600 for 10 minutes about what it felt like to serve this nation overseas. Before we get to the second 244 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:20,080 half of our interview, I want to take a quick second to thank our sponsors. This week's episode is 245 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:26,880 brought to you by FieldSeeds.com. FieldSeeds.com is an e-commerce federally licensed firearms dealer. 246 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,960 They provide virtual reviews on brand new firearms, optics, and gear, where at the end of the review, 247 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,360 they give away the item being reviewed to an attendee. Currently, they've got reviews and 248 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:44,480 giveaways up ranging from $20 for a brand new Smith & Wesson MNP Shield M2.09 millimeter 249 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:53,280 to $50 for a new Christensen Arms CA556. Each review has limited seating, so your chances 250 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:59,440 of winning the giveaway are that much higher. Check out FieldSeeds.com to purchase your reviews 251 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,960 and enter to win the item being reviewed and use the code LEAFLMINDS to get 10% off your order. 252 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,880 Be sure to also check out their Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube at FieldUnderscoreSeats 253 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,520 for updates on products and other tips and info. Use code LEAFLMINDS to receive 10% 254 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,920 off your entire purchase at FieldSeeds.com. Terms and conditions apply. 255 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:27,760 It doesn't matter if you're combat or support or whatever, it doesn't matter, right? You had an 256 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:35,360 experience that you chose and although we've also had Vietnam vets who were drafted, World War II 257 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:41,280 vets who were drafted, but nevertheless you did the nation's work over there and the fallout, 258 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,240 the emotional fallout shouldn't be just yours and the pride in what you did shouldn't be just yours 259 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,240 either. It should be all, you know, to belong to the whole nation, right, as it would have for the 260 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:57,200 Kiowa. And if you, you know, like to say that you support the troops, great, like I like the 261 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,640 phrase, it doesn't sort of mean a whole lot, but no problem, I like it. That means showing up for a 262 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,120 couple of hours once a year to listen to veterans tell their stories and you will hear the most 263 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:12,240 extraordinary stories. You will hear veterans who are very proud. Some veterans who are very angry, 264 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,880 some veterans who literally are crying too hard to talk, which is its own kind of testimony. 265 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,200 And I feel like not only does it help vets, but it brings communities together. It's totally 266 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:29,440 apolitical, which allows people to experience being in one place at the center of a community 267 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,280 without being identified by their political markers, by their political beliefs. 268 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:39,040 We are all there as citizens. That's it, end of sentence. And it's a very powerful experience 269 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:45,040 for all involved. And I really urge people to do it. It's, it doesn't cost a dime and it's really 270 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:50,080 very simple to set up. Right. I mean, I think it's such an interesting concept, right? Because 271 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,400 like you said, you mentioned in there, there's these phrases, you know, support the troops or 272 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,520 the parades that'll happen around, you know, Veterans Day to thank our service members. And 273 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,760 the, you know, the phrase, thank you for your service, which I personally started hearing 274 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,800 like an hour after I graduated from boot camp and went into town in my uniform, like it starts 275 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,760 instantly. Now that's a product I would argue of this current generation. And in some ways, 276 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,920 I think the country is like almost atoning for the way we treated our Vietnam veterans and that 277 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:24,560 there's still this like this resurgence right now of like almost lip service, right? These kind of, 278 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,000 I don't want to say they're empty gestures, because I feel like that's projecting a little bit too 279 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:33,200 much onto it. But there, it's a little, it's, it's an action, right? That's an action giving out a 280 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,640 coupon or free meal or something. While there's some good intention there, it's an action. And what 281 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,320 you're talking about is, is the opposite of action, which is listening, right? Is to sit there and 282 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:48,160 just listen. Now, I mean, this is also something that this concept, somebody getting up and speaking, 283 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,560 it's not new necessarily, right? Like you said, there's other cultures that have done it. 284 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:58,800 This is the way a lot of group therapy groups are set up, like Alcoholics Anonymous and even 285 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:04,640 the ID Confession through the Catholic Church, right? Is it, were those, do you see a current, 286 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,680 like the power really comes from giving like giving a stage to an individual? 287 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:18,880 Yeah, I mean, there is, there's something very powerful in bearing witness to another person's 288 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:28,880 experience. And the forum, as you mentioned, say of AA, where it's a, it's a benevolent and 289 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:38,240 non-judgmental, but also no bullshit environment. Right. You are, you are totally safe to confess 290 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:44,640 the things you are most ashamed of, you're encouraged to, right? And people will listen 291 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:51,600 without judgment and support you. And you know what, it's a, it's an act of great patriotism 292 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:59,600 to listen to, to be anti-war. I grew up in a liberal household, right? And I have a very nuanced, 293 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,080 I think, I hope very nuanced understanding of when we do and don't need to go to war as a 294 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,320 nation, right? I mean, I have my own opinions about all this, but my background is very liberal, 295 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:14,800 right? And I think it's a great act of patriotism for someone who is 296 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:22,800 implacably opposed to war in all cases, which is not me, but to listen with respect and real 297 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:28,000 attention and lack of judgment to a soldier saying, you know what, my service is the thing 298 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:34,800 I'm most proud of, right? And, and this is a great nation and I served it well and, you know, 299 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:40,720 etc. I like it's an act of real patriotism to, to not agree with the war that person fought, 300 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,440 but to bear witness to what they, the way they experienced it. Likewise, 301 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,360 people who are, I don't want to say pro-war, because that just sounds absurd, but, but 302 00:29:53,360 --> 00:30:01,760 who have not, who do not particularly question US rationale for going to war, Vietnam and Iraq, 303 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,640 for example, wars that were, you know, quite, you know, history is shown to be quite questionable 304 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,920 in their judgment. But they're really, you know, really sort of like completely accepting of that, 305 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:19,360 to bear witness, to stand and listen without judgment to a Vietnam vet saying, you know what, 306 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:26,240 that whole thing was complete bullshit, right? We were sent to die in a war that made no sense, 307 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,280 you know, etc., etc. And you stand and listen to that without judgment, because that's their 308 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,800 experience too. And we're all Americans, we have to figure out how to make all this work. 309 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:41,680 Those are acts of real patriotism and, and real unity in this country. And, you know, I feel like 310 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:47,600 our, our, our political leaders, not all of them, but enough of them to make this happen. 311 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:55,360 Some of our political leaders have actually, actually tried to worsen the, to make worse, 312 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:01,680 to exacerbate the cultural, economic and political divisions in this country that exist in any country, 313 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:09,200 make them worse because it benefits these individuals politically. It is their fault, 314 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:15,360 it is our leader's fault. And we fell for it, but it's our leader's fault that the country is at, 315 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:21,840 that we're at each other's throats politically. And I think one way to start healing that is 316 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,280 you're never going to reform the politicians, right? There's too much money in politics, 317 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,480 there's too much power, it's too corrupt, it's never happening, right? But from the ground up, 318 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:38,000 you can change things. And I think from the ground up, American citizens have to start 319 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,560 tuning out their leader, the, the toxic leaders that we have, some of the toxic leaders that we 320 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:48,880 have and understand that they're, that you're, your strongest ally is your fellow citizen you may 321 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:54,080 not agree with. At the end of the day, that's your strongest ally. And that's America's strongest 322 00:31:54,080 --> 00:32:01,520 form of defense against fascism and terrorism and everything else that the world has to offer, 323 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,000 the unfortunate nation. Well, yeah, in some ways, we're more connected than we've, 324 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,640 than we've ever been, right? Through the use of social media, the internet, that global 325 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,520 perspective is more, I mean, we're watching things happen instantly, simultaneously, we're, 326 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:21,760 we're not waiting for this. And in some ways, I would think that that would make us, that level 327 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,680 of clarity would bring us closer together. But clearly, that's not the case in a lot of ways. 328 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,960 Like you said, there's a lot to be gained by keeping attrition going and keeping, keeping 329 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:39,760 people at each other's, at each other's throats, speaking broadly. Now, do you, these experiences 330 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,120 so far, because this organization, that's Town Hall's been around for a little while now, is there 331 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,640 any, have you seen, is there any experiences that have stuck with you attending any of these, 332 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,360 these events or any moments you could share with us that, that have kind of shown the power of it? 333 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,920 Oh, yeah, I mean, the early ones, I mean, I'm, I think some of these people have passed on, I think. 334 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,920 I'm not sure we're going to get any more World War Two vets. But in the very beginning, this is 335 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:09,120 2015, you know, we had a couple of World War Two vets, that most extraordinary stories, right? 336 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:15,600 You know, one guy who signed up at 16, maybe, and fought in the Pacific, like crazy stories, 337 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:21,360 right? Amazing, amazing stories. And, and he said he came home and he wore a knife around his ankle 338 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:30,800 for the rest of his life, just to make sure, right? Amazing guy. And, and I mean, there were, 339 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,120 there were people who were still deep in grief about people they'd lost and struggling with the 340 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:52,400 idea that it was their fault, just heartbreaking stories. And there was one, one older, older lady 341 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:58,160 in her 70s who stood up, the first one with, with Representative Seth Moulton, who also offered an 342 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:06,240 extraordinary story as a Marine Lieutenant in the, in Ramadi or Fallujah, I can't remember which, 343 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,440 but taking a break because he was, he was personally exhausted and he needed water and he 344 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:17,520 needed to take a knee for five minutes. And I think they were in a cemetery and during that break, 345 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:25,280 one of his men got, took a bullet in the forehead. Imagine the guilt. Right. And that's why he's 346 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:32,480 never, he was awarded some high, high medal of courage for his service. And he never mentions 347 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,680 it to the media. He's a politician, right? He never mentions it to the media because he just 348 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:47,920 thinks, why should I get that when I didn't bring that boy home? Right. Alive. And very, very powerful. 349 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:54,400 But so many, many stories like that. But finally, I'll just, just to rearrange everyone's 350 00:34:54,400 --> 00:35:00,720 brain for a moment. There was an older, an older lady who stood up. And I was like, you're, wait, 351 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:07,600 what's happening here? And she said, I fought in Vietnam in the infantry and I said, wait, 352 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:14,240 oh, wait a second. And she said, and then I came home and got a sex change. And here I am. 353 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,680 You know, it was a pretty conservative audience in every way. I was like, oh, yes, America, 354 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,640 like awesome. Right. Like that can happen. Fantastic. And you know what, you know, 355 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,480 you know, the conservatives or the liberals out there, they're uncomfortable with this kind of 356 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,240 thing. This person fought for your country, like they are freaking patriots. So you better take 357 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:42,640 them as they are at, you know, like right now in their life, like honor that because, you know, 358 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:48,080 that's one of the things that makes this country great is that that can happen. And that, you know, 359 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:53,200 like that we, that we can honor it in a meeting like this. It's extraordinary. 360 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,680 Well, it's also interesting you bring up that this is multiple generations of different veterans, 361 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,480 right? Like you've got had World War II veterans showing up and that generation is quickly, 362 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:08,320 quickly escaping us. And there's, there is kind of this, this grab to hold on to those stories 363 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,920 and grab those experiences before they're gone forever. And I mean, did you notice, 364 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,440 was there, so what I'm getting at is like, there's, there's a factor of time in here, right? The guy 365 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,720 who just got out of the Marine Corps six months ago is a lot different than the guy who got out 366 00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:29,760 three decades ago, four decades ago, who's, who's at the very end of their life with a completely 367 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:35,760 different perspective. Did you notice any change? Like, were the stories kind of aligned along a 368 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,400 timeline in that fashion that people's perspectives softened or hardened based on where they were 369 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:41,840 at in their post service? 370 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:56,240 No, I mean, I don't think, I didn't see any pattern like that. I mean, there was a sort of basic 371 00:36:56,240 --> 00:37:03,840 division. I mean, there was a sort of basic divisions of people who were in deep sorrow. 372 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:11,280 And that was their primary emotion, right? And then there are people who may be 373 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:17,600 grieving somebody, but were their dominant emotion was that they're very proud of their service. 374 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:25,600 And, and, and then there were, you know, there, then they were way fewer, but there are some 375 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:32,000 people who were quite angry. Vietnam and frankly, Iraq as well, right? Not Afghanistan so much, 376 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,960 which sort of corresponds with my feelings about the two wars. I didn't cover Iraq because, 377 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,400 frankly, I was against it and I didn't think I could be objective. Afghanistan, I understood the 378 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:49,600 rationale morally, legally, politically, strategically, and I got it after 9-11. And I was 379 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,480 for it and I, you know, I've been going to Afghanistan since the mid 90s. It was a country 380 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,600 that I was very fond of way before 9-11 happened. And then after, after 9-11, I thought, oh my 381 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,840 God, you know, America could really do a lot of good in Afghanistan. You know, if we do this right, 382 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:08,560 unfortunately, I don't think we did. But so you, you know, you sort of, there was a little bit of 383 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:14,480 that and the responses Iraq, there was a lot of bitterness around Iraq. And then there was, 384 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:20,800 you know, a sort of subset of this, which was sometimes people who really would sort of confess 385 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:29,440 like, I didn't do enough. I didn't fight. I was just, you know, quote, just a supply clerk or whatever. 386 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:36,880 And, and, and, you know, some people get really teary. Like, I'm ashamed. Like, I mean, I wish 387 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,120 I'd done, I wish I could have done more. And those in some ways were really the heartbreaking people. 388 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:48,400 And I was in a, I was in a, I was leading a talk once and a guy stood up, a big tough looking dude. 389 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:54,400 Like, some ways the bigger and tougher they are, the harder they cry. I don't know, it's crazy. 390 00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:00,240 Right. And this guy stood up and, and he was a CB and, you know, his job was to, was to build 391 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:06,160 stuff on these remote bases. And he's, and he said, you know, I never, I, nothing happened. 392 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,240 Like it wasn't hard. And I, and I feel guilty that I didn't do more. And he said, it went, 393 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:16,560 he said, until one point a platoon came in from a lot of combat deep in the, deep in the mountains 394 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,680 or wherever he was, he was in Afghanistan. He said, they were dirty. They were beat up. They had 395 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,320 a hell of a few weeks. And they came in and he had built them up sort of plywood platformed 396 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:33,920 just like sleep on out of the dirt at this fire base. And, and he said they were, they all like 397 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:39,200 came up and shook his hand and thanked him. They were so grateful. And as he told this story, 398 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,920 you know, this wasn't a vet's town hall. It was just an event somewhere. 399 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,760 As he told this story, he started crying and he was enormously embarrassed to me crying 400 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,720 because he was a six foot three Marine, right? And he's crying in front of a bunch of people. 401 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:58,640 And, you know, I would, I wanted to sort of help him. I don't, I don't know, like do something, 402 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:05,360 right? And so I said, I said, I said, thank you. And I said to everybody, I said, he's, 403 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:11,920 he said, he's crying. He's doing our crying for us. Like war is a serious thing. And we 404 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:19,280 should all be crying, but we're not. He's, he's crying for us. And really, we should thank him 405 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,280 because we should all be, we should all be doing what he's doing right now. And we're not. 406 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,600 And, and at that point, half the room started crying and we were, we were good. So, you know, 407 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:38,400 this, yeah, my, my friend of mine was joking, like, especially younger, making grown men cry 408 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:45,600 since 1997, right? So, you know, but there's, you know, when you're at that level of emotion, 409 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,360 there's something real going on there, right? And listen, I'm, you know, I have a long and 410 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,520 terrible history of make, making sure I don't cry when, when I should be, you know, 411 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,000 which should be, I should be feeling something, you know, so I know exactly how this works. 412 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,480 And, you know, frankly, how damaging it can be to a person. 413 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,880 Right. I mean, that's, I think that's also an interesting topic is, is how do the audiences 414 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,440 react in events, in events like this? Like, because for me personally, I can always tell 415 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:17,600 how approximately close an individual is to a military community, by the way they, 416 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,920 they react to when they found out that I served in the Marine Corps, right? Because sometimes 417 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,320 people take on this like seriousness that like, I don't know, like for me, it was, 418 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,360 and I'm one of those individuals who, you know, had some of these feelings of like, 419 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,120 I should have done more a little bit because I was six years in the reserves, the Marine Corps, 420 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,400 and, you know, in infantry MOS, and I never deployed, right? I never saw my closest experience 421 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,360 to war was very, very distant, just knowing people who'd been there and done that. And I, 422 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,920 I personally, you know, I have my own ways of having dealt with that. And I feel fine now, 423 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,400 but it's interesting to me that like the first or second question people will ask me, 424 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,160 once they find out I was in the Marine Corps, where did you deploy to? You know, that's like, 425 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,720 first thing I have to, and you know, my answer is like, well, Long Island, you know, that's 426 00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:04,480 where I was for six years, more or less, you know, that's, I didn't, I didn't go to Afghanistan, 427 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,640 I wasn't in Iraq or anything like that. And it's kind of interesting that, you know, some people 428 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:13,200 who, you know, they were in the military themselves, or they, or they had a spouse or whatever, 429 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,840 it's, it's, we just, we jump right over that there's a certain communication that's just 430 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,440 already established, because we come from that shared experience in whatever way, regardless of 431 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,440 whether they went to war, they didn't, or whatever, they're just a commonality there. But there's 432 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,280 individuals who like, they don't know how to act almost, they don't know how to act from the 433 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,120 second they find out about the military, they do the thank you for your service thing. And I think 434 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:38,320 this is an interesting experiment and an interesting venture in the sense that it gives veterans a way 435 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:44,560 to just get up there and share their, their experiences, you know, just total freedom. 436 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,880 What, what have audience reactions been like? Or is it individuals showing up who are already 437 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,840 kind of involved with military communities? Well, you know, I think there's a lot of probably a 438 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,840 predominance of military related military connected people in the audience, but not 439 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,840 exclusively, but either, you know, they're very, very welcoming and compassionate. And we're, 440 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:09,680 we, you know, we, we, we are part of the package that you will download if you'd want to do events 441 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,680 town hall, part of the package are some sort of instructions about what to say to the audience 442 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,520 before this kicks off and how it all sort of work just to sort of, you know, like clockwork aspect 443 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:24,080 of it, like this happens and that happens. But one of the things we say we're very explicit about 444 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:29,680 is this is not political and this is not a forum to argue the merits of a war, right? This do not 445 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:36,320 do it. This is that there's no Q and a and we will tolerate absolutely no back and forth about 446 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:42,560 whether we should have or shouldn't have fought this or that war. And, and so, so I mean war is 447 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,720 divisive and it should be divisive. It's the worst thing there is right. So it's not divisive, 448 00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:50,800 we're in trouble, right? I mean, if you don't have people saying the opposite thing to get 449 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:56,480 everyone to examine their assumptions, you're, you're going to have some problems, right? And so, 450 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,400 but we don't want that in events town hall where the point isn't to sort out which wars to fight 451 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:08,480 and not fight. The point is to help the people that fought the wars that we chose as a nation 452 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:15,120 that we chose to fight to bring them back, right? And, and you know, vets talk with each other about 453 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:19,680 their experiences. They're reluctant to talk to other to civilians and non vets about their 454 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,960 experiences. But then they complain that they feel like they're not part of society. You can't 455 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,920 have it both ways, right? Like you're not going to feel like you're part of society. If you refuse 456 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:37,360 to tell the part of society you're trying to join, like what you went through. Yeah, even if it was 457 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:43,840 very little, right? Like, and, and so you can't sort of like, no, no, no, they, they can't understand. 458 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:49,360 They don't deserve to know this is special knowledge, you know, and then complain. But I don't, I feel 459 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,880 like I don't fit in. Like, of course, you don't feel like you don't fit in. You're not freaking 460 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:58,640 communicating with them, right? So, so vets town hall is a chance to sort of like stop with that 461 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:04,320 bullshit and like get everyone like on the same page. And I've never seen an adverse negative 462 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,880 reaction in a vets town hall. It just doesn't, it just doesn't happen. I mean, it's a little, 463 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,440 you know, I'm an atheist, I don't go to church, but, you know, from my understanding of church is 464 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:18,400 people raise their hand in the back and start arguing with the priest, right? It's a sacred 465 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:24,880 space. It's a sacred time. Like you're there to experience and listen. That's it. Right. Well, 466 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,760 I mean, I want to say thanks for joining us today and letting us in on this, on this venture that 467 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:35,280 you have going. Is there any plans coming up this this Veterans Day for vets town hall? 468 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,840 Yeah. And, you know, again, we are organized, my organization, our organization 469 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,800 doesn't itself organize events, right? I mean, we facilitate, we help people 470 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,400 organize events locally. Yeah, there's vets town hall over the country. But go on to the website 471 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:56,400 vets town hall dot org. And it's not too late. You can set you can stand one up in a week, right? 472 00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:02,640 I mean, it did just not, you know, there isn't a lot of legwork on these and there's zero expense 473 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:07,200 basically. So most of the moment, you have to get the word out and people will come. 474 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,920 Great. Well, we'll definitely make sure we get the word out there. Hopefully some people will 475 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,840 step up. We'll see a bunch of these all over the country and we'll see what comes of it. So 476 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,880 thank you again for joining us today. My pleasure. Thank you. 477 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:27,840 Be sure to pre order Sebastian's new book in my time of dying, which comes out in May of 2024. 478 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,760 Literature of war has always been about getting books into the hands of our troops. 479 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,000 Those men and women were currently serving all over the world right now. 480 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,760 We are right in the midst of our first library campaign in which we are attempting to donate 481 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:49,440 500 books to five different units. We are past the halfway mark to our goal, but we still need 482 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,600 your help. Please head to the link in our description for ways to donate books to our troops. 483 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:59,520 This episode was recorded at the National Veterans Memorial and Museum in Columbus, Ohio. 484 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:07,360 For more information, please visit nationalvmm.org on ways to support this museum and its mission 485 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,960 of helping veterans tell their stories. Lastly, you don't have to be published by a major publishing 486 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:17,520 house for your story to matter. There's a group of veterans in North Carolina who are proving 487 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:22,720 that to be true right now. Brothers and sisters like these began as a creative writing program 488 00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:30,000 in 2016 for Vietnam veterans who are struggling with PTSD. It has since grown to include veterans 489 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,880 from other wars as well. These are men and women from all walks of life who have taken the time 490 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,680 to tell their stories in their own voices with their own words. We're going to highlight some of 491 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,560 these stories in the coming weeks, but please take a moment to check out their page at brothersand 492 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:51,200 sisterslikethese.com. Once again, I'm your host, Michael Jerome Plunkett, and I will be back in a 493 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,600 few weeks with another story and another conversation. 494 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:08,720 Veterans Radio has a partnership with Literature of War Foundation to exchange podcast content 495 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:13,920 to reach a wider audience regarding issues of interest to veterans, family, and friends. 496 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:21,280 You can find more about Literature of War Foundation at its website, litofwar.com. 497 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:27,760 You can find more about Veterans Radio on Facebook or its website, veteransradio.org. 498 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:33,600 I am Jim Foss Hohn, a host of Veterans Radio and a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help 499 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:39,600 for Veterans.com, a sponsor of this podcast.