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We want to welcome to VeteransRadio today to talk about GI Bill benefits.

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Two distinguished veterans.

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One is an Army veteran, retired after 22 years of active service with the rank of Lieutenant

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Colonel, and is now a teacher, executive director of the Veterans Legal Clinic at Syracuse

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University.

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We want to welcome to VeteransRadio Elizabeth Kubla.

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Beth, welcome.

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Hi, thanks for having me today.

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Well it's great to have a colonel, a law professor, and an expert on something we're going to

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talk about.

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But before we get there, I also want to welcome to VeteransRadio Angela R. Hamilton, US Navy

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23 years.

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She finished up as director of officer talent acquisition for Navy talent acquisition.

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Boy, that's a hot topic these days with the recruiting issues.

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She holds an MBA and has experienced some GI Bill post-911 and Montgomery GI Bill intersections.

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So we're glad to have you on, Angela, on VeteransRadio.

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Welcome.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Yeah, we could talk to both of you about a lot of different topics because of your extensive

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careers.

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But what came to my attention and kind of got this group together was a recent US Supreme

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Court ruling on what the GI Bill, how the interplay is between the post-911 GI Bill

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and the Montgomery GI Bill benefits.

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And I have to start with this.

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I don't think anybody understands how the GI Bill really is supposed to work.

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And I suspect that's what you hear as well, Professor.

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Right, well, you know, the GI Bill is a wonderful education benefit administered by the US Department

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of Veterans Affairs.

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So like any kind of benefit administered by a federal agency, you've really got to understand

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how it works, how you apply, how you recertify.

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So it's not uncommon at all that many veterans encounter challenges, have questions.

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And it's really important that veterans who are using or who want to use their GI Bill

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benefits understand how to make those benefits work for you.

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It's a really important part of transitioning out of the military.

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Yeah, and I think it's one of those things until you get into a specific context, it's

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hard to grasp on how all this interplays.

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And at a veteran-friendly university like Syracuse University, and I know you're at the College

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of Law there, I'm sure you've got staff that really understands how this works as compared

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to maybe some other schools who simply don't.

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Yeah, we really pride ourselves here at Syracuse University.

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You know, we were ranked best for vets and we take that to heart.

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We have an entire office dedicated to our veteran students and military connected student

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success.

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It is called the Office of Veteran Success, and it is unique to a college or university.

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You can walk in and within our Office of Veteran Success, we have personnel who certify your

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GI Bill benefits.

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So that means that they approve them, they keep the benefits moving, they interface with

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our big Syracuse University financial teams to make sure that there's no interruption

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in a student veteran's classes.

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And we also have a vet success on campus advisor who can assist with other types of benefits

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to make sure that your education, your educational experience is number one, and to make sure

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that we don't have any veterans who are worrying about their benefits versus studying for their

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classes.

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Well, it's, as I said, important to really understand your benefits.

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It's important to have people who can help you in that regard.

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It's also kind of unusual that the US Supreme Court ever takes up any veteran issues, and

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here they took up a veteran's education benefit issue, and in a 7-2 ruling, tell us what the

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justices decided, Beth.

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Sure, it is exciting whenever there's a veteran's case at the Supreme Court, all of us in the

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veteran's law environment, we get really excited and we're paying attention because

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often the legal rationale behind an education case may also have implications for another

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type of benefits situation.

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So in a nutshell, the Supreme Court decided that Army veteran James Routesill could use

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both his Montgomery GI bill benefits that he earned and his Post-911 GI benefits that

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he earned.

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There's some complicated legal jargon and some really deep analysis into how you declare

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you're going to use those benefits, but previously the VA had not allowed veterans who had earned

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both to use the full extent of those two educational benefits.

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And what I thought was really important from this case is there is a legal principle, a

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legal canon of construction that we call the veteran's canon, and they really, the Supreme

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Court justices who found in favor of James Routesill said whenever there's confusion

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about a law that the presumption goes to the veteran, so they found that Army veteran James

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Routesill could use both benefits.

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And I think it's important not only for educational benefits, but we might see this case referred

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to in situations where medical benefits or VA disability benefits are being brought into

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question.

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Well, that's a wonderful summary and I wouldn't expect anything other than that from somebody

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who attended the United States Military Academy, got their law degree from University of Missouri,

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Kansas City School of Law and went on to be in the Army Judge Advocate General School,

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getting her LLM.

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Nice summary and that's really one of the great reasons you look at this is you say,

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well, where else might it apply?

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And there's so much crazy VA regulation that seems to be in conflict.

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The U.S. Supreme Court's kind of saying, hey, if there's conflict, you know, if there's

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a tie at the base, the tie ought to go to the veterans.

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Is that what you're saying?

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That is a great way to put it.

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Yes, sir.

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Well, that's, again, I think something everybody can latch onto.

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And this is not a small involvement.

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This, hey, you can use them both.

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It's reported that maybe as many as 1.7 million veterans could immediately qualify for more

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education benefits under the ruling, which brings us to you, Angela Hamilton, a Navy

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veteran retired after 23 years.

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First off, give us just a little bit of the flavor of your Navy career and then we're

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going to turn to using the GI bill for your educational benefits.

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Yes, sir.

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So I joined the Navy.

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I enlisted in 1999.

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And then I actually received my commission through the Navy Seaman to Admiral program

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in 2009 and served as a surface warfare officer.

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And I ultimately retired as a human resources officer, as you said, the officer in charge

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of Navy talent acquisition until I retired in October 1st, 2022.

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And along the way, you picked up your master's, your MBA from Webster University.

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And it was important to get your timing because this is where it comes in, right?

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There was a time when it was the Montgomery GI Bill, then it changed over to the post 911

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GI Bill.

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And if you're old enough like I am at the Vietnam era, you just had the GI Bill, which

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was really simple in comparison.

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So tell us a little bit about your application and use of the, your GI Bill benefits.

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Okay.

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So when I first joined enlisted in 1999, I fell under the Montgomery GI Bill plan.

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And I am one of those sailors, one of those veterans that actually paid into the program,

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which was $1,200, I believe it was $100 a month for a year.

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And once you paid into the program, you were then guaranteed the benefits of the Montgomery

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GI Bill.

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When I actually obtained two degrees while I was active duty, my first, my bachelor's

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and then also my MBA from Webster, as you said.

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And I use some of those benefits, the Montgomery GI Bill benefits while I was on active duty,

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which is something that you can do.

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But now that I am a veteran, I am retired.

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When I chose to go to Syracuse School of Law, which is the best place for veterans.

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Oh, come on.

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Let's not turn this into just a promo for Syracuse Law School and the university now.

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No, go ahead.

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I'm kidding.

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That's okay.

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But I actually had to make a decision.

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I was told by the VA that I had to make a decision to either utilize the rest of my Montgomery

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GI Bill or I could, you know, sign that away and choose to use the benefits of the 9-11,

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the post 9-11 GI Bill, which is what I chose to do by coming to Syracuse.

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And so this ruling, you know, makes me excited as a veteran to know that I could possibly

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have additional benefits that I could potentially use.

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And they had a different economic value to it.

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Under the Montgomery GI Bill, which you had to pay into, you could receive, it's reported

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about 113,000 over a course of a four-year degree.

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But as you say, you didn't use it all up.

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Under the post 9-11 GI Bill package, that four-year degree program, you could use about

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200,000.

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So, you know, these are substantial dollars that really make the difference, don't they,

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Angela, about whether or not you continue your education?

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Absolutely they do.

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And as you know, being in talent acquisition or recruiting for the Navy, one of the top,

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I don't know, maybe it's in the top three reasons people join the military service is

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for educational benefits, isn't it?

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Yes, sir.

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It was definitely the reason I joined.

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But you are absolutely correct.

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Education benefits are one of the top reasons why.

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And Beth, through all your time in the Army, while it was all, I think, all in the legal

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field, educational benefits had to play a role for a lot of the other soldiers that

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you came in contact with.

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I don't know if they made a difference for you, but tell us a little bit about it.

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Oh, absolutely.

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After I, you know, I was fortunate that my education was mainly paid through the Army.

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And I paid the Army back with my service for that education.

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But what's interesting is, you know, the post 9-11 GI Bill allows you to transfer some of

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those benefits to your dependents, your spouse or your children.

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So I have a high school senior who will be starting Syracuse University in the fall.

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You wouldn't have talked about that child if they went somewhere else.

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But they're coming to Syracuse because you know what?

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Syracuse is a yellow ribbon program.

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It recognizes the GI Bill.

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It gives you full, the full, covers the full value of tuition.

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And there's such a good support staff to make sure that your benefits are properly

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aborted.

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But, you know, who would have thought years ago that my military service would have resulted

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in an education benefit for my daughter?

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So, you know, these benefits are really critical to military families.

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They're critical to soldiers transitioning.

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If you had a, if you maybe did your one enlistment and wanted to then get out and pursue a, maybe

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you got your bachelor's and you want to pursue an advanced degree.

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It's a, you know, education is really required and it's a key component for those service

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members who are transitioning out of the uniform and into the civilian world.

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Well, I think it's also a good example in your instance how, and I think Angela may be

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in yours as well, how while you're in service, you have the opportunity to get additional

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education and start moving along that line for the day when you retire or you just get

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out.

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And I think that part of the educational benefit for recruiting and retention is sometimes overlooked

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as well.

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Did you see that Angela when talking to folks on those issues?

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Oh, yes, sir.

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We actually use that as one of the benefits of our, for one of our selling points to let

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them know that while they're on active duty, they're entitled to things like tuition assistance,

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you know, loan repayment programs and things of that nature.

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But absolutely when you're, when you become a veteran, being able to use your GI bill

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or as Professor Kabala stated, being able to transfer it to your dependents so that

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they can have educational benefits, those are definitely, definitely major benefits

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in joining the military.

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It does make me wonder though, Angela, because you said you were told by VA, hey, you can

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either you finish up using your Montgomery rights or you can start the post 9-11 benefits,

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but you have to give one or the other up.

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What's going to happen to those people who signed away their rights maybe mistakenly

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in the past year, Professor?

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I think what we don't know right now is how the VA, what the VA is going to do next as

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a result of the Supreme Court decision.

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I've gotten a lot of phone calls about, you know, what's happening now and we kind of

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need to sit back and wait to see what kinds of, you know, rules or regulations that the

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VA promulgates.

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But I would recommend that everyone, we, you know, we don't know if any kind of new policies

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will be retroactive.

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I would say, you know, definitely keep your ear to the ground, be in contact with your

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VA education officer and make sure you kind of keep all, keep all of your paperwork regarding

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any benefits earned.

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And for anyone who's looking to start their studies this fall, you want to be really informed

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about what the status is of what benefits you are able to use before you kind of jump

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into a situation without knowing if you really have your educational costs covered yet or

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not.

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So it's a really important time to be checking in and seeing how the VA will implement the

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Supreme Court decision.

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It does get scary for folks who start down an educational path hoping that their benefits

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are covered.

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If they find out they're not, you know, they may have racked up a big debt that they really

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can't deal with.

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So is it possible then, Beth, to know that ahead of time?

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Yep, I'm covered these courses.

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This line of degree work is going to be covered by the benefits?

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I would not recommend that anybody jump in and sign up hoping that they're going to be

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able to apply both benefits immediately.

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Again, the importance of working with the representatives at your college or your university,

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they will know, you know, exactly what the status is of after Rue de Sille.

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So I really would recommend not racking up a big debt, but making sure, you know, like

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any service member would, you know, analyzing all of your courses of action and taking the

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less risky course of action until we know more information.

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Excellent advice, which is why we have experts like you on.

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Angela, I am curious, as somebody who did a lot in HR who holds an MBA, what the heck

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compelled you to go to law school?

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Haven't you been in school long enough?

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You know, I will tell you that I will say as a retired veteran, there's kind of a saying

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of what do you want to do when you grow up?

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Right.

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And I have always said, I want it to be a lawyer.

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So I want to Syracuse, of course, the best place for a veteran.

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Oh, I shouldn't have given you the opportunity.

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So why don't we finish this up, Beth, with you telling us a little bit about Syracuse

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University and why it's such, not only why it's such a great place, but what the fields

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of study available are.

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Sure.

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It's funny, just this morning, I was walking through, I had a meeting in Syracuse's brand

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new National Veterans Resource Center, established by a wonderful alum, Dan Daniello.

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We have a brand new facility here at Syracuse, and it houses our Office of Veterans Success.

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It is a home for our Army and Air Force ROTC, and it also includes our Institute for Veterans

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and Military Families and our Office of Veteran and Military Affairs.

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And if everything right there that I rattled off shows you, we have a huge support structure

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here at Syracuse.

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We are a yellow ribbon school, which means Syracuse will cover the amount of tuition

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that the GI Bill, above what the GI Bill covers.

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And we also have some really unique educational offerings for everyone, but particularly for

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veterans.

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Like, you know, Angela, for example, she's not in a position to pick up her household

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and move to Syracuse and stop working to get her law degree.

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We have this flexible law degree here at Syracuse College of Law called the JD Interactive.

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So Angela's studies are provided in the evenings and asynchronously, so that working professionals

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like herself who want to go back, come back and get their law degree can do so.

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And our JDI program has been really popular with veterans, with active duty military,

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and also with military spouses.

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So there's really a need for flexible delivery of educational options.

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And we have all kinds of options here.

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I'd encourage anyone who's military or veteran or is a spouse or child to look and explore

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on our website to see what we've got to offer.

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And I think you'll find there's some really great programs that take advantage and allow

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veterans and military to maximize their benefits here at Syracuse.

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When I was walking through the National Veterans Resource Center this morning, we have a display

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and part of that display includes a little historical piece on one of our former, one

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of our historic chancellors, Chancellor Tali, was one of our, was our chancellor at the

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end of World War II.

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And he actually helped draft what was then called the Servicemen's Re-Adjustment Act

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of 1944, which we now know as the GI Bill.

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And he wrote this memo to service members and basically said, our doors are open to you.

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He welcomed all returning veterans to Syracuse, and that was what really changed the landscape

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of this small private school in upstate New York.

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Our population grew, and it grew by a number of returning veterans.

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And that has really positioned Syracuse to be on a different trajectory.

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And that was really what started our historic commitment to veterans that we see today.

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Great explanation of how we got to where we're at at Syracuse University.

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I think the GI Bill is extremely important.

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It has probably helped certainly coming out of World War II, as you just explained, so

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many men primarily, but men and women get advanced education.

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Today both of you have demonstrated that.

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I certainly went to law school on the GI Bill back in the day.

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It's a wonderful benefit, and this U.S. Supreme Court case says that if you're entitled to

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both, you get to use both the post-911 GI Bill as well as the Montgomery GI Bill.

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It's kind of big news for veterans.

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It's kind of geeky for everybody else, but I appreciate the time that Angela Hamilton

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and Beth Kubla have spent with us talking about this issue.

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Thank you, sir.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today.

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I am Jim Fawcone.

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It's been a pleasure to be your host.

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I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans, and you can reach us at

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800-69-348-00 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web.

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You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet radio

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shows by visiting us at veteransradio.org.

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That's veteransradio.org.

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And until next time, you are dismissed.

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If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal Help for

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Veterans at 1-800-693-4800.

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They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims.

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Their number again, 1-800-693-4800.

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We again want to thank our national sponsors, the National Veterans Business Development

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Council, NVBDC.org, VA Ann Arbor Health Care System, the Vietnam Veterans of America,

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Charles S. Kettles Chapter, Ann Arbor, Michigan, VFW Graff O'Hara Post 423 in Ann Arbor, and

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the American Legion Press Corn Post 46 also in Ann Arbor.

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We appreciate all your support.

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You can go to veteransradio.net, click on the sponsor level, and continue to support

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keeping Veterans Radio on the air.

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And until next time, you are dismissed.