All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.
This is Veterans Radio.
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We want to welcome to VeteransRadio today to talk about GI Bill benefits.
Two distinguished veterans.
One is an Army veteran, retired after 22 years of active service with the rank of Lieutenant
Colonel, and is now a teacher, executive director of the Veterans Legal Clinic at Syracuse
University.
We want to welcome to VeteransRadio Elizabeth Kubla.
Beth, welcome.
Hi, thanks for having me today.
Well it's great to have a colonel, a law professor, and an expert on something we're going to
talk about.
But before we get there, I also want to welcome to VeteransRadio Angela R. Hamilton, US Navy
23 years.
She finished up as director of officer talent acquisition for Navy talent acquisition.
Boy, that's a hot topic these days with the recruiting issues.
She holds an MBA and has experienced some GI Bill post-911 and Montgomery GI Bill intersections.
So we're glad to have you on, Angela, on VeteransRadio.
Welcome.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, we could talk to both of you about a lot of different topics because of your extensive
careers.
But what came to my attention and kind of got this group together was a recent US Supreme
Court ruling on what the GI Bill, how the interplay is between the post-911 GI Bill
and the Montgomery GI Bill benefits.
And I have to start with this.
I don't think anybody understands how the GI Bill really is supposed to work.
And I suspect that's what you hear as well, Professor.
Right, well, you know, the GI Bill is a wonderful education benefit administered by the US Department
of Veterans Affairs.
So like any kind of benefit administered by a federal agency, you've really got to understand
how it works, how you apply, how you recertify.
So it's not uncommon at all that many veterans encounter challenges, have questions.
And it's really important that veterans who are using or who want to use their GI Bill
benefits understand how to make those benefits work for you.
It's a really important part of transitioning out of the military.
Yeah, and I think it's one of those things until you get into a specific context, it's
hard to grasp on how all this interplays.
And at a veteran-friendly university like Syracuse University, and I know you're at the College
of Law there, I'm sure you've got staff that really understands how this works as compared
to maybe some other schools who simply don't.
Yeah, we really pride ourselves here at Syracuse University.
You know, we were ranked best for vets and we take that to heart.
We have an entire office dedicated to our veteran students and military connected student
success.
It is called the Office of Veteran Success, and it is unique to a college or university.
You can walk in and within our Office of Veteran Success, we have personnel who certify your
GI Bill benefits.
So that means that they approve them, they keep the benefits moving, they interface with
our big Syracuse University financial teams to make sure that there's no interruption
in a student veteran's classes.
And we also have a vet success on campus advisor who can assist with other types of benefits
to make sure that your education, your educational experience is number one, and to make sure
that we don't have any veterans who are worrying about their benefits versus studying for their
classes.
Well, it's, as I said, important to really understand your benefits.
It's important to have people who can help you in that regard.
It's also kind of unusual that the US Supreme Court ever takes up any veteran issues, and
here they took up a veteran's education benefit issue, and in a 7-2 ruling, tell us what the
justices decided, Beth.
Sure, it is exciting whenever there's a veteran's case at the Supreme Court, all of us in the
veteran's law environment, we get really excited and we're paying attention because
often the legal rationale behind an education case may also have implications for another
type of benefits situation.
So in a nutshell, the Supreme Court decided that Army veteran James Routesill could use
both his Montgomery GI bill benefits that he earned and his Post-911 GI benefits that
he earned.
There's some complicated legal jargon and some really deep analysis into how you declare
you're going to use those benefits, but previously the VA had not allowed veterans who had earned
both to use the full extent of those two educational benefits.
And what I thought was really important from this case is there is a legal principle, a
legal canon of construction that we call the veteran's canon, and they really, the Supreme
Court justices who found in favor of James Routesill said whenever there's confusion
about a law that the presumption goes to the veteran, so they found that Army veteran James
Routesill could use both benefits.
And I think it's important not only for educational benefits, but we might see this case referred
to in situations where medical benefits or VA disability benefits are being brought into
question.
Well, that's a wonderful summary and I wouldn't expect anything other than that from somebody
who attended the United States Military Academy, got their law degree from University of Missouri,
Kansas City School of Law and went on to be in the Army Judge Advocate General School,
getting her LLM.
Nice summary and that's really one of the great reasons you look at this is you say,
well, where else might it apply?
And there's so much crazy VA regulation that seems to be in conflict.
The U.S. Supreme Court's kind of saying, hey, if there's conflict, you know, if there's
a tie at the base, the tie ought to go to the veterans.
Is that what you're saying?
That is a great way to put it.
Yes, sir.
Well, that's, again, I think something everybody can latch onto.
And this is not a small involvement.
This, hey, you can use them both.
It's reported that maybe as many as 1.7 million veterans could immediately qualify for more
education benefits under the ruling, which brings us to you, Angela Hamilton, a Navy
veteran retired after 23 years.
First off, give us just a little bit of the flavor of your Navy career and then we're
going to turn to using the GI bill for your educational benefits.
Yes, sir.
So I joined the Navy.
I enlisted in 1999.
And then I actually received my commission through the Navy Seaman to Admiral program
in 2009 and served as a surface warfare officer.
And I ultimately retired as a human resources officer, as you said, the officer in charge
of Navy talent acquisition until I retired in October 1st, 2022.
And along the way, you picked up your master's, your MBA from Webster University.
And it was important to get your timing because this is where it comes in, right?
There was a time when it was the Montgomery GI Bill, then it changed over to the post 911
GI Bill.
And if you're old enough like I am at the Vietnam era, you just had the GI Bill, which
was really simple in comparison.
So tell us a little bit about your application and use of the, your GI Bill benefits.
Okay.
So when I first joined enlisted in 1999, I fell under the Montgomery GI Bill plan.
And I am one of those sailors, one of those veterans that actually paid into the program,
which was $1,200, I believe it was $100 a month for a year.
And once you paid into the program, you were then guaranteed the benefits of the Montgomery
GI Bill.
When I actually obtained two degrees while I was active duty, my first, my bachelor's
and then also my MBA from Webster, as you said.
And I use some of those benefits, the Montgomery GI Bill benefits while I was on active duty,
which is something that you can do.
But now that I am a veteran, I am retired.
When I chose to go to Syracuse School of Law, which is the best place for veterans.
Oh, come on.
Let's not turn this into just a promo for Syracuse Law School and the university now.
No, go ahead.
I'm kidding.
That's okay.
But I actually had to make a decision.
I was told by the VA that I had to make a decision to either utilize the rest of my Montgomery
GI Bill or I could, you know, sign that away and choose to use the benefits of the 9-11,
the post 9-11 GI Bill, which is what I chose to do by coming to Syracuse.
And so this ruling, you know, makes me excited as a veteran to know that I could possibly
have additional benefits that I could potentially use.
And they had a different economic value to it.
Under the Montgomery GI Bill, which you had to pay into, you could receive, it's reported
about 113,000 over a course of a four-year degree.
But as you say, you didn't use it all up.
Under the post 9-11 GI Bill package, that four-year degree program, you could use about
200,000.
So, you know, these are substantial dollars that really make the difference, don't they,
Angela, about whether or not you continue your education?
Absolutely they do.
And as you know, being in talent acquisition or recruiting for the Navy, one of the top,
I don't know, maybe it's in the top three reasons people join the military service is
for educational benefits, isn't it?
Yes, sir.
It was definitely the reason I joined.
But you are absolutely correct.
Education benefits are one of the top reasons why.
And Beth, through all your time in the Army, while it was all, I think, all in the legal
field, educational benefits had to play a role for a lot of the other soldiers that
you came in contact with.
I don't know if they made a difference for you, but tell us a little bit about it.
Oh, absolutely.
After I, you know, I was fortunate that my education was mainly paid through the Army.
And I paid the Army back with my service for that education.
But what's interesting is, you know, the post 9-11 GI Bill allows you to transfer some of
those benefits to your dependents, your spouse or your children.
So I have a high school senior who will be starting Syracuse University in the fall.
You wouldn't have talked about that child if they went somewhere else.
But they're coming to Syracuse because you know what?
Syracuse is a yellow ribbon program.
It recognizes the GI Bill.
It gives you full, the full, covers the full value of tuition.
And there's such a good support staff to make sure that your benefits are properly
aborted.
But, you know, who would have thought years ago that my military service would have resulted
in an education benefit for my daughter?
So, you know, these benefits are really critical to military families.
They're critical to soldiers transitioning.
If you had a, if you maybe did your one enlistment and wanted to then get out and pursue a, maybe
you got your bachelor's and you want to pursue an advanced degree.
It's a, you know, education is really required and it's a key component for those service
members who are transitioning out of the uniform and into the civilian world.
Well, I think it's also a good example in your instance how, and I think Angela may be
in yours as well, how while you're in service, you have the opportunity to get additional
education and start moving along that line for the day when you retire or you just get
out.
And I think that part of the educational benefit for recruiting and retention is sometimes overlooked
as well.
Did you see that Angela when talking to folks on those issues?
Oh, yes, sir.
We actually use that as one of the benefits of our, for one of our selling points to let
them know that while they're on active duty, they're entitled to things like tuition assistance,
you know, loan repayment programs and things of that nature.
But absolutely when you're, when you become a veteran, being able to use your GI bill
or as Professor Kabala stated, being able to transfer it to your dependents so that
they can have educational benefits, those are definitely, definitely major benefits
in joining the military.
It does make me wonder though, Angela, because you said you were told by VA, hey, you can
either you finish up using your Montgomery rights or you can start the post 9-11 benefits,
but you have to give one or the other up.
What's going to happen to those people who signed away their rights maybe mistakenly
in the past year, Professor?
I think what we don't know right now is how the VA, what the VA is going to do next as
a result of the Supreme Court decision.
I've gotten a lot of phone calls about, you know, what's happening now and we kind of
need to sit back and wait to see what kinds of, you know, rules or regulations that the
VA promulgates.
But I would recommend that everyone, we, you know, we don't know if any kind of new policies
will be retroactive.
I would say, you know, definitely keep your ear to the ground, be in contact with your
VA education officer and make sure you kind of keep all, keep all of your paperwork regarding
any benefits earned.
And for anyone who's looking to start their studies this fall, you want to be really informed
about what the status is of what benefits you are able to use before you kind of jump
into a situation without knowing if you really have your educational costs covered yet or
not.
So it's a really important time to be checking in and seeing how the VA will implement the
Supreme Court decision.
It does get scary for folks who start down an educational path hoping that their benefits
are covered.
If they find out they're not, you know, they may have racked up a big debt that they really
can't deal with.
So is it possible then, Beth, to know that ahead of time?
Yep, I'm covered these courses.
This line of degree work is going to be covered by the benefits?
I would not recommend that anybody jump in and sign up hoping that they're going to be
able to apply both benefits immediately.
Again, the importance of working with the representatives at your college or your university,
they will know, you know, exactly what the status is of after Rue de Sille.
So I really would recommend not racking up a big debt, but making sure, you know, like
any service member would, you know, analyzing all of your courses of action and taking the
less risky course of action until we know more information.
Excellent advice, which is why we have experts like you on.
Angela, I am curious, as somebody who did a lot in HR who holds an MBA, what the heck
compelled you to go to law school?
Haven't you been in school long enough?
You know, I will tell you that I will say as a retired veteran, there's kind of a saying
of what do you want to do when you grow up?
Right.
And I have always said, I want it to be a lawyer.
So I want to Syracuse, of course, the best place for a veteran.
Oh, I shouldn't have given you the opportunity.
So why don't we finish this up, Beth, with you telling us a little bit about Syracuse
University and why it's such, not only why it's such a great place, but what the fields
of study available are.
Sure.
It's funny, just this morning, I was walking through, I had a meeting in Syracuse's brand
new National Veterans Resource Center, established by a wonderful alum, Dan Daniello.
We have a brand new facility here at Syracuse, and it houses our Office of Veterans Success.
It is a home for our Army and Air Force ROTC, and it also includes our Institute for Veterans
and Military Families and our Office of Veteran and Military Affairs.
And if everything right there that I rattled off shows you, we have a huge support structure
here at Syracuse.
We are a yellow ribbon school, which means Syracuse will cover the amount of tuition
that the GI Bill, above what the GI Bill covers.
And we also have some really unique educational offerings for everyone, but particularly for
veterans.
Like, you know, Angela, for example, she's not in a position to pick up her household
and move to Syracuse and stop working to get her law degree.
We have this flexible law degree here at Syracuse College of Law called the JD Interactive.
So Angela's studies are provided in the evenings and asynchronously, so that working professionals
like herself who want to go back, come back and get their law degree can do so.
And our JDI program has been really popular with veterans, with active duty military,
and also with military spouses.
So there's really a need for flexible delivery of educational options.
And we have all kinds of options here.
I'd encourage anyone who's military or veteran or is a spouse or child to look and explore
on our website to see what we've got to offer.
And I think you'll find there's some really great programs that take advantage and allow
veterans and military to maximize their benefits here at Syracuse.
When I was walking through the National Veterans Resource Center this morning, we have a display
and part of that display includes a little historical piece on one of our former, one
of our historic chancellors, Chancellor Tali, was one of our, was our chancellor at the
end of World War II.
And he actually helped draft what was then called the Servicemen's Re-Adjustment Act
of 1944, which we now know as the GI Bill.
And he wrote this memo to service members and basically said, our doors are open to you.
He welcomed all returning veterans to Syracuse, and that was what really changed the landscape
of this small private school in upstate New York.
Our population grew, and it grew by a number of returning veterans.
And that has really positioned Syracuse to be on a different trajectory.
And that was really what started our historic commitment to veterans that we see today.
Great explanation of how we got to where we're at at Syracuse University.
I think the GI Bill is extremely important.
It has probably helped certainly coming out of World War II, as you just explained, so
many men primarily, but men and women get advanced education.
Today both of you have demonstrated that.
I certainly went to law school on the GI Bill back in the day.
It's a wonderful benefit, and this U.S. Supreme Court case says that if you're entitled to
both, you get to use both the post-911 GI Bill as well as the Montgomery GI Bill.
It's kind of big news for veterans.
It's kind of geeky for everybody else, but I appreciate the time that Angela Hamilton
and Beth Kubla have spent with us talking about this issue.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you so much for having me.
And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today.
I am Jim Fawcone.
It's been a pleasure to be your host.
I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans, and you can reach us at
800-69-348-00 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web.
You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet radio
shows by visiting us at veteransradio.org.
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And until next time, you are dismissed.
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And until next time, you are dismissed.