1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,400 All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,400 And now, your host for today's program, Dale Throneberry. 3 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:26,160 Good afternoon and welcome to Veterans Radio. 4 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,520 My name is Dale Throneberry. 5 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,240 I was a chief warrant officer in the United States Army. 6 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,720 I flew helicopters in Vietnam in 1969. 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,840 I want to welcome you to our program here. 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:38,520 Today's program is going to be really fun. 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,000 We're going to be talking about Top Gun. 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,280 We've got an author of a new book celebrating the 50 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,960 years of naval air superiority. 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,040 Although I think my guests might not agree with that. 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,960 Also in the studio joining me is a retired major general, 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:55,880 William Henderson. 15 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,440 He was a marine pilot during the Vietnam era. 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,800 And we're going to be talking about his experiences in Vietnam 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:02,560 as a pilot. 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,840 And hopefully, he and Dwight can tell a few war stories 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,680 between them about the different types of aviation 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,640 that are out there during the time of the Top Gun 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,040 and also, of course, a jet aircraft in Vietnam. 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,040 I want to make sure that we tell everybody 23 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,400 that we are sponsored by Legal Help for Veterans. 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,000 Legal Help for Veterans is a disability attorney's office 25 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,960 that helps veterans with their claims. 26 00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:29,880 You can find them at legalhelpforveterans.com. 27 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,320 Also, US Wing manufacturers of the finest leather flight 28 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:35,840 jackets down in Hudson, Ohio. 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,640 You can just go to uswings.com. 30 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,240 I want to remind you to sign up for our raffle, 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,680 I guess you could call it, a giveaway of a leather jacket 32 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,720 that we do on the last Sunday of every month 33 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,360 when we have our benefits program. 34 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,560 So if you go to our website at veteransradio.net, 35 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,080 you can add your name to the list, 36 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,680 and hopefully we can get you, maybe we'll pick you this time. 37 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,760 So make sure that you do that. 38 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,040 Also, we'd like to thank our sponsors, the American Legion 39 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,720 Post-46 in Ann Arbor, Michigan, the VVA Charles Kettles, 40 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:14,200 Chapter 310 in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and the VFW Post-423 41 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,160 also in Ann Arbor, Michigan. 42 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,160 And if you'd like to become a sponsor of Veterans Radio 43 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,680 and help us spread the word, as we say, 44 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,040 you can find more information about that on our website, 45 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,320 veteransradio.net, or you can follow us on Facebook, 46 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,360 Twitter, all those other forms of social media 47 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,280 that I don't know a whole lot about. 48 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,200 But I know that we can get some messages out 49 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:36,400 and let you do that. 50 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,040 So what I want to do is I want to take a real quick break, 51 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:40,240 and we come back. 52 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,120 We're going to be talking with Dwight Zimmerman, who 53 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,240 is the author of Top Gun, 50 Years of Naval Air Superiority. 54 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,800 You're listening to Veterans Radio. 55 00:02:47,800 --> 00:03:06,160 MUSIC 56 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,280 All right, we're playing Anchors Away there. 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,600 I wasn't sure exactly which anthem I should play when 58 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,280 we're talking about Top Gun, because the book is Top Gun, 59 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,280 50 Years of Naval Air Superiority. 60 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,920 And it talks about aviation in general from World War I on. 61 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:22,600 And it's a great read. 62 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,040 And I want to welcome a frequent guest to Veterans Radio. 63 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,840 And that is Dwight Zimmerman, author of many books, many 64 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,080 military books, actually. 65 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,480 He was one of the founders and president of the Military 66 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,520 Writer Society of America. 67 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,920 And just a good friend of ours, he 68 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,680 did a review of books on Veterans Radio a few years ago. 69 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,440 And that's what kind of introduced me 70 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,840 to a military writer society. 71 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,640 But I want to welcome back to Veterans Radio, Dwight John 72 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:50,320 Zimmerman. 73 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,440 Welcome back, Dwight. 74 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,960 Dale, it is so nice to be back here. 75 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:57,040 Thank you so much. 76 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,760 And happy Father's Day to all the fathers who are listening. 77 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:02,440 That's true. 78 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,720 Happy Father's Day to all of us, right? 79 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,320 Had my breakfast with the fam this morning. 80 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:10,120 Everything went well. 81 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:11,560 I hope you did. 82 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,280 Hope you did too. 83 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,720 Well, not so much. 84 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,160 No celebration yet? 85 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,480 We did a little earlier in the weekend, 86 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:32,320 because our son was having to do a travel. 87 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:33,480 Another obligation. 88 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,000 They always have obligations. 89 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,000 Who let our kids grow up? 90 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,360 Yeah, it happens. 91 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:41,880 It does. 92 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,160 That is for sure. 93 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,600 Well, Dwight, I want you to meet my other guest who's 94 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:48,360 in the studio. 95 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,320 And let me kind of give a little introduction to him. 96 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,040 He's retired Major General William Henderson and Bill. 97 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:02,160 And he is and was an F-4 fighter pilot in Vietnam, Marine. 98 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,400 And he's here to kind of act as my expert. 99 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,040 We talk a little bit about some of the airplanes 100 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,360 that are in your book. 101 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,640 So Bill, meet Dwight, Dwight, meet Bill. 102 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,720 Dwight, it's good to be here on the show with you 103 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,880 and looking forward to a very interesting conversation. 104 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,320 I looked at the book and I told Dale, 105 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,600 I definitely want to get the guy. 106 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,000 I'm going to have a copy of that book. 107 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,360 It really looks like something I want to have. 108 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,600 Well, General, that is a great thing to hear. 109 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:37,720 I am so humbled by that, because as someone who 110 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:46,760 is a lifelong civilian, but from childhood on, 111 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:55,520 respected, admired the military was, I grew up reading 112 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:04,080 military history and wanted to do something that 113 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:05,320 would contribute to it. 114 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:10,120 And when I became an adult and I had the opportunity 115 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:16,560 to write the military books, as Dale can tell you, 116 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,360 this is my 17th book on military history. 117 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:22,240 Outstanding. 118 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,920 Well, I'll tell you, again, not familiar with the others, 119 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,200 but just through perusing through this one, 120 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,640 this is a first class book. 121 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,480 A lot of great pictures and a lot of narratives. 122 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,760 So I'm definitely going to pick it up. 123 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:35,680 Well, thank you. 124 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,040 I had a lot of fun with this. 125 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,960 And obviously, the original purpose 126 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:49,320 was to, we were looking at the 50th anniversary of the Navy's 127 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,840 fighter pilot training program, which came to be known as Top Gun. 128 00:06:53,840 --> 00:07:00,240 And with the Tom Cruise Top Gun movie sequel coming out, 129 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,680 it seemed like a nice dovetail. 130 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,960 And as I was putting this whole thing together, 131 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:17,480 as it happened when I was working on my Uncommon Valor 132 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,440 book, which was about the Medal of Honor recipients 133 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:28,760 from Afghanistan and Iraq, and recognizing that people, 134 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,920 because there's so much time at past between the last real 135 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:39,160 recipients of the Medal of Honor from Vietnam, with respect 136 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,200 to Sugar Garden Gordon and the Mogadishu thing, 137 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:50,160 the civilian authors, the civilian audience, I'm sorry, 138 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:55,000 had lost what was the meaning of the Medal of Honor. 139 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,080 So we included a history of the Medal of Honor 140 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,800 to put it in context. 141 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,760 And as I was putting together this Top Gun story, 142 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:09,360 I said, well, the civilian audience really doesn't know, 143 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,560 well, what in the heck does this really mean? 144 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,840 Why is Top Gun so important? 145 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,840 Why are fighter pilots so special? 146 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:29,080 And that's where I wanted to include a history of fighter 147 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,680 pilots and to put into context the whole ethos of being 148 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:38,880 a fighter pilot and why they are such extraordinary individuals. 149 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,600 Well, you've done an excellent job. 150 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,480 And again, I'm looking forward to getting the book 151 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,200 and reading it from cover to cover. 152 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,440 But I'm really impressed with what I've seen so far. 153 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:49,880 Well, thank you. 154 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,040 Well, yeah, it says as an F-4 pilot himself, 155 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,920 I was very, we had a very lively discussion 156 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,120 on the attributes of the F-4 and the strengths 157 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:02,120 and weaknesses of it. 158 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,640 And I think that you did an excellent job in your book 159 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,480 of talking about not just the F-4, obviously, 160 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,480 but all the other aircraft that you mentioned 161 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,400 starting in World War I. And what I want to do, 162 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,760 kind of, Dwight, if we can, kind of go back chronologically 163 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,640 and talk about some of these fighter pilots 164 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,440 that I think the audience might be interested in. 165 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,280 And as you say, maybe rekindle some interest 166 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,720 in what these fighter pilots really do. 167 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,480 How about that? 168 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,720 OK, well, I'm happy to do that. 169 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,240 What was really fascinating for me was World War I, 170 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:49,520 obviously, that was the first war in which air combat occurred. 171 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,160 And it is really amazing when you start looking at what 172 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,440 all happened, how dangerous. 173 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,120 I mean, yes, air combat is dangerous by definition. 174 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:02,840 Yes. 175 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,120 So what? 176 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:10,600 When you look at what the pilots in World War I were facing, 177 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,880 it wasn't just against their adversary. 178 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,600 It was the planes themselves. 179 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,240 These were very fragile aircraft. 180 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,840 And one of the points that I wanted to make visually 181 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,240 was, and I was really happy when I found that, 182 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,640 I have a photograph in there of the cockpit 183 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,840 of a French Newport fighter plane. 184 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,240 And you're looking at the thing, and you're saying, 185 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,560 there's absolutely almost no instruments in there. 186 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:44,480 No, they weren't any. 187 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,320 And the helicopter wasn't that much better. 188 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:55,920 But it looked like an old car. 189 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,160 There's no speedometer. 190 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,520 There's no air speed. 191 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,840 There's no artificial horizon, all the different things 192 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,440 that pilots are so used to today. 193 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:06,680 But they got them up in the air. 194 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:10,400 In fact, I don't know how they stayed up in the air most 195 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,120 of the time, or even how they figured out 196 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,080 how to coordinate machine gun fire with the propellers 197 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,000 and all the other things. 198 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,320 And you've got some great stories inside your book. 199 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,760 We are talking here on Veterans Radio with Dwight Zimmerman, 200 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,040 who is the author of Top Gun 50 Years of Naval Air 201 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:29,040 Superiority. 202 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,360 And he goes back and looks at the history of aviation, 203 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,200 and military aviation specifically. 204 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:41,320 And yeah, those planes were the Wright Brothers types 205 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:41,720 of things. 206 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,120 They're lucky they stayed up in the air more than 15 seconds. 207 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,600 Yeah, and initial air combat was pilots 208 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,000 who had pistols, shotguns. 209 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:59,520 They even threw rocks and grenades at each other. 210 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:06,400 And the first machine guns that were mounted just above the engine, 211 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,680 they wrapped metal around the propellers 212 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:15,080 because machine guns weren't synchronized. 213 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,920 So you can well imagine they're pulling the trigger. 214 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,520 And then suddenly bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, 215 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,280 and bullets are flying, hither and yon. 216 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,800 And maybe a couple actually went forward. 217 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:35,720 But who knows how many went elsewhere and even backwards. 218 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,920 Yeah, wounded by your own ricochet. 219 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,080 Yeah, we're talking about friendly fire 220 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,480 in the worst way. 221 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:47,920 That's pretty bad. 222 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,640 So who was the first American ace? 223 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,120 And I'm going to ask you to define ace for our audience. 224 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,520 OK, well, the first American ace, 225 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,160 I don't think I could tell you. 226 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:09,800 But as these pilots were out there, 227 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,840 they captured everyone's imagination. 228 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,200 And they came to be a standard. 229 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,720 Initially, it was the downing of 10 aircraft that gave you 230 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:22,880 the title. 231 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:29,000 And the French were the first to give the designation of ace. 232 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:34,560 And it was only after the Americans entered the war 233 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:39,480 in World War I in 1917 that the allies, 234 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:46,200 Joe Britton and France said, let us put the designation at five 235 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,640 planes to make an ace. 236 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,680 Because it was at that point that you 237 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,120 received a decoration. 238 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,400 In France, it was the Claude de Guerre. 239 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,040 And then you got other decorations as well. 240 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,280 And as it turned out, well, we had a number of really good 241 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:13,880 American pilots that started with the Lafayette Escradeal, 242 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:19,600 which was a group of American pilots who fought under the 243 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,360 French Air Force. 244 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:27,440 And then when America entered the war, they were signed on 245 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,080 to the American Air Corps. 246 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,880 And Raoul Lufteberry, who was our top ace at the time, 247 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,440 he was French-American. 248 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,880 And he taught Eddie Rickenbacher how to fight. 249 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,960 And Rickenbacher, as some of our listeners may know, 250 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:53,520 is our World War I ace of aces with 26 kills. 251 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:53,880 Right. 252 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,880 And in fact, I was just going to give you that number, 253 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,280 because I'm reading it in this amazing book that I've got 254 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,440 sitting here on my desk as we're talking. 255 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,000 And the French ace of aces was René, and I don't speak 256 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:07,600 French at all. 257 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,840 So it's funk, F-O-N-C-K. 258 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,520 And this gentleman. 259 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:13,600 You did well. 260 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:14,560 Oh, thank you. 261 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:22,360 This guy had confirmed 75 kills and another 67 that were 262 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,000 listed as probables. 263 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:24,480 Wow. 264 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,120 I think we just impressed the general here with this guy's 265 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:30,960 flying ability. 266 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,480 And of course, inside the book, you also mentioned the Red 267 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,240 Baron and some other people that were well known. 268 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:44,480 And how the American public became so enamored with these 269 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,600 fighter pilots, especially after the end of World War I. 270 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,880 And as you mentioned throughout the book, you are 271 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:56,600 talking about the influence of Hollywood on recruiting. 272 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,120 Oh, it was manifest. 273 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,960 You know, these fighter pilots became the 274 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,320 Knights of the Sky. 275 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,960 And even before the end of World War I, stories were 276 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:18,640 being written, magazines, short stories and magazines and 277 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,160 books were coming out. 278 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:25,240 And Hollywood, no fools them, were quick to capitalize on 279 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:26,000 it. 280 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,600 And arguably the most famous. 281 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,040 I mentioned a number of movies in there. 282 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,920 But really, the big one was the original King Kong movie. 283 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,120 And it was really funny. 284 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,640 I got into the background of that. 285 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:50,640 And it was fascinating to see how the producer of the film 286 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,000 fooled the chief of naval operations to trick them to 287 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:03,720 actually get a squadron of pilots to do the flying 288 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,160 around the Empire State Building and staging the 289 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,920 attack on King Kong. 290 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:10,200 Right. 291 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,960 It was not a model. 292 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:13,440 No. 293 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,240 It was real airplanes flying around pretending to attack 294 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,320 the Empire State Building. 295 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:20,800 Yeah, I can remember that movie. 296 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,200 I watched King Kong, I don't know, about 100 times on 297 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,080 the old million dollar movie. 298 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,560 I guess so. 299 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,320 But of course that, and for movie buffs out there, 300 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,080 there's a movie Wings. 301 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,920 That was, and all that was pretty much live action. 302 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:41,560 They didn't use. 303 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:42,360 Yes, it was. 304 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:43,800 They didn't use airplanes. 305 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:51,120 It defined how to do aerial combat for the movies. 306 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:52,520 Yeah, that was a pretty high. 307 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,600 In modern times, this Top Gun, it was a major recruiting 308 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,480 tool. 309 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,440 The interest in becoming fighter pilots in the military 310 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,680 after Top Gun came out went up exponentially. 311 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,200 It had a major effect. 312 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,800 You're quite right, General. 313 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:21,720 I was talking with a friend of mine who was the, Craig 314 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:22,720 Simons. 315 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,240 He at the time was the head of the chair of the history 316 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,680 department at the US Naval Academy when that movie came 317 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:33,240 up. 318 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,720 And he said there was a huge spike in recruitment. 319 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:47,400 And of course, here are all these young men coming out of 320 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,920 the movie and they're all pumped up with adrenaline and 321 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,800 saying, wow, I'm going to be a fighter pilot and everything 322 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:53,240 like that. 323 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:54,600 And they sign up. 324 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,840 And General, what's the difference between what Hollywood 325 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,240 depicted and what it really takes to be a fighter pilot? 326 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,440 Well, it's a big difference. 327 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,920 What you see in the movies is the end result of the 328 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,080 fighter pilot training. 329 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,600 But what you have to go through for that on the Air Force 330 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,160 for 12 months and the Navy Marine Corps for 18 months, 331 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:25,560 it's a lot more mundane, a lot more less exciting, let's put 332 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,840 it for great parts of it. 333 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,240 Like repetition. 334 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:30,160 Right. 335 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,680 And there's a lot of pressure because every flight is like 336 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,160 a final exam. 337 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:36,480 But it's well worth it. 338 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,000 And there are some exciting times also in flight training 339 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,480 when you are formation flying and gunnery and that. 340 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,920 But a lot of it is instrument training, for example, is 341 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,520 very going to be boring, very intensive. 342 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,080 It's a long, like a month and a half program, as I recall. 343 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,040 But it's been a long time for me. 344 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,760 But what you see in the movies is the end result, which is 345 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,480 that part is exciting. 346 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,040 But getting there is not that exciting. 347 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:06,280 Half the fun. 348 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,800 Especially when you have to go through the spin and puke 349 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:09,200 chair. 350 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:09,680 Right. 351 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:10,720 Right. 352 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,960 Right. 353 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,600 A lot of hard work. 354 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,160 It is a lot of hard work. 355 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,280 And we're talking with Major General William Henderson 356 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,920 here and Dwight Zimmerman, who is the author of a new book 357 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,120 entitled Top Gun 50 Years of Naval Flight Training. 358 00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:32,800 And you talk about, from a historical perspective, we're 359 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,960 going from World War I and we're up to World War II, where 360 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,840 now we're doing all of these aircraft carrier landings. 361 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,080 And we'll mention that later on with the general. 362 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:47,200 He had so much fun doing that. 363 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,240 Yeah, I bet you did. 364 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,560 That night, especially. 365 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,880 Exactly. 366 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,680 He was mentioning that the last portion of your flight training 367 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,760 was carrier landing, correct? 368 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,400 In the last portion, in the basic training, 369 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,760 and then last portion in advance, yes. 370 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,760 And if you messed up your landing? 371 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:09,760 Right. 372 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,320 You could have been, like I was to tell people, the ace of the base. 373 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,800 But when it came time to go to the carrier, 374 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,440 if you didn't qualify, there was no second chance. 375 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,440 You were out of the program. 376 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,240 It wasn't like we'll go back and train some more 377 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,960 and you come back out again next month. 378 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,120 It didn't matter what kind of grades you had prior to that. 379 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,160 If you couldn't get aboard the carrier, you were out. 380 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,240 Just that simple. 381 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,080 That's a lot of taxpayer money going to training. 382 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,960 And they say, well, see you later bye. 383 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:39,960 Right. 384 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:46,280 Well, and also, you had the different resting cables. 385 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,280 Oh, yeah. 386 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,920 So you were graded as to which ones you'd hit. 387 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:56,560 I think our listeners would be interested in that aspect, which 388 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,680 you would know a lot more than me. 389 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,600 Well, the number three wire is the desirable one. 390 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,000 How many wires on there? 391 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:04,600 I can't remember. 392 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:05,400 It's three or four. 393 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:06,080 It's been a while. 394 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,640 But it's three or four. 395 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:13,240 But number three was like the ideal. 396 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,040 However, from a pilot's point of view, 397 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,520 it doesn't matter which wire you get. 398 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,400 You just want to get a wire. 399 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,440 And at the end, it didn't matter if you got all ones or all fours. 400 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:28,760 You qualified. 401 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,720 So the three wire was nice. 402 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,400 But from the guys going out there doing it, 403 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,080 they actually could care less about which wire it was. 404 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,320 I'm sure. 405 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,000 I just heard recently about landing types. 406 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,840 And there are good landings and there are great landings. 407 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,000 A good landing is a landing that you can walk away from safely. 408 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,680 A great landing is one that you can walk away from, 409 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,040 and they can actually reuse the aircraft. 410 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,040 Right. 411 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,040 Right. 412 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,400 Well, I'll leave you two guys to talk about that. 413 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,440 I'm sure, Dale, you have your anecdotes as a helicopter pilot. 414 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,200 Well, just at one quarter of the speed. 415 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:11,600 That's the only difference. 416 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,520 Or maybe a tenth of the speed. 417 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,560 But we have about three minutes to write before we're 418 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,520 going to hit the bottom of the hour. 419 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:24,480 Let's talk just briefly about the effects of the movie Top Gun. 420 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:30,720 As we mentioned, it increased enlistment in the flight programs. 421 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,440 In your book, you mentioned that there was actually 422 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,160 a Navy recruiter that was opened right next to a couple of movie theaters. 423 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,440 Catching as it came out. 424 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:42,440 Yeah. 425 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:50,120 As it turned out, when the movie started getting some real buzz and 426 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:53,160 legs, the Navy was quick to seize on it. 427 00:23:53,160 --> 00:24:01,600 They would set up kiosks at big theaters in major markets, like Los Angeles, New York, 428 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,520 Chicago, big cities. 429 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,760 When the young men came out, they would see these recruiting kiosks. 430 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:18,160 They're in their late teens, early 20s, and they're figuring, hey, I can be the next 431 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,600 Tom Cruise or Val Kilmer. 432 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,080 The Navy was smart enough to say, you sure as hell can. 433 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,200 Just sign right here. 434 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:34,920 Now, didn't all pilots have to have college degrees? 435 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,600 When I first, in 1966, when I went through flight training, they still had a program 436 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,480 in the Marine Corps and the Navy, the Mar-CADs and NAV-CADs, two years of college. 437 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,600 But that ended in 1966. 438 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,720 After that, everybody had to have a four-year degree. 439 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,120 Which is why the Army went to the Warren Officer program so that they could get the 440 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:55,760 number of pilots that they needed. 441 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:56,760 Right. 442 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:57,760 They were short amount of time. 443 00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:58,760 Yeah, exactly. 444 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,600 Kind of busy. 445 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:05,400 We got about a minute and a half to go. 446 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:12,960 Let's talk in a minute, I guess we can do this, is a transition from prop-driven aircraft 447 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,440 to jet aircraft. 448 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,680 This occurred between World War II and Korea, correct? 449 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,680 Correct. 450 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:28,960 And did this change the training at all, as far as, you know, going from the props to 451 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:29,960 everything else? 452 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,840 I can't address that, because when I came through it was all jets, except for first 453 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,520 two months in a prop, small prop. 454 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,520 Okay. 455 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,120 Well, we got to take a break anyway, so we'll think about that question and I'll make sure 456 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:45,600 that I'm not being a good lawyer today where I don't know the answer to the question before 457 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,600 I ask it. 458 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,040 We've been talking and we will be talking more in a moment with Dwight Simmerman, author 459 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:59,360 of the book Top Gun, the first 50 years of naval air superiority and Major General William 460 00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:02,800 Henderson, United States Marine Corps. 461 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:28,800 And so you're listening to Veterans Radio and we will be back in just a moment. 462 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:48,600 Now, welcome back to Veterans Radio. 463 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,280 My name is Dale Throneberry and I am getting your host today. 464 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,760 And we're talking with author Dwight Zimmerman, whose new book is just out. 465 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,080 It's called Top Gun, 50 Years of Naval Air Superiority. 466 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:05,400 And joining me in the studio is retired Major General William Henderson, who was an F-4 467 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,280 pilot in Vietnam. 468 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,620 And we're just talking during the break about a number of other aircraft that he's flown, 469 00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:16,440 so we're going to get into that in a little bit as we continue on with our chronological 470 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,160 look at Top Gun. 471 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:24,680 So Dwight, tell me what happened in World War II, I think it was. 472 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,120 That's where we ended up with some more aces, didn't we? 473 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:39,880 Well, that was, you could say, excuse me, the golden age of aerial combat. 474 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,360 We saw so many advances in the technology. 475 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:59,400 We went from airplanes fashioned from cloth and wood and primitive machine gun use to 476 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:06,920 all metal, enclosed cockpit, powerful engines. 477 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:17,240 And at the end of the war, we actually had jet engines in combat. 478 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:30,440 It was really an amazing, when you look at how quickly, excuse me, aircraft were designed 479 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,440 and constructed and put into combat. 480 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:43,520 But nowadays, it takes more than 10 years from drawing board, well, now it's computer, 481 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,360 to final product. 482 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:56,720 There we were seeing aircraft, well, in World War I, it was months from drawing board to 483 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,760 actual fighter plane. 484 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:10,000 And similarly, in World War II, the accelerated pace of aircraft development was just absolutely 485 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,000 amazing. 486 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:24,200 My jaw dropped when I was seeing how quickly we, well, all of the major combatants developed 487 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,880 their fighter planes. 488 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:33,480 And quickly, and in such big numbers. 489 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,480 Well, yeah. 490 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,160 The numbers of airplanes were unbelievable. 491 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,480 We'll never see anything like that again. 492 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,320 No, I can't imagine doing that. 493 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,760 I mean, we're right down the road from Willow Run, where they were turning out, you know, 494 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,720 1,000 B-17s or 24s, whatever it was toward the end of the war. 495 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:57,840 And yeah, I think the ability to produce these aircraft obviously led to our victory. 496 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:58,840 The World War II. 497 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,840 They built 5,000 B-24s at Willow Run. 498 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,600 5,000 and some of those 5,000 plus. 499 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,440 Yeah, it's an amazing number, you're right. 500 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:14,840 Well, when we went to, so we, we had, as you said, it was the golden age of fighter pilots 501 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,320 and so forth during World War II, because everything seemed to be, now most of those 502 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,680 fighter planes were not pressurized, so they weren't flying at 20,000, 30,000 feet. 503 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:33,960 No, the interesting enough, the only pressurized aircraft was the B-29 Superfortress. 504 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:41,480 And ultimately what happened was instead of it flying at the higher altitude necessitated 505 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:50,880 by being pressurized, they wound up flying at low level in their attacks against Japan. 506 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:59,360 So yeah, we're talking about classic dog fighters, you know, from at the highest 15,000 507 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,360 feet, you know, down to ground level. 508 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:08,480 I was curious about that and I wanted to ask the general question about the pressure suit, 509 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,600 because the idea of all these G's on your body, and I think that's probably another 510 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:19,560 test that you had to pass from a physical standpoint, what, can you tell me what it 511 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,640 was like to fly with a pressure suit on? 512 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:29,520 Well, it wasn't really a pressure suit, you wore a G suit, which was from, covered your 513 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:35,120 lower part of your stomach and then your legs, and it was a head of hose plugged into the 514 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:41,520 airplane and when you pulled G's, a certain amount of G's in a turn or whatever, those, 515 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:48,400 you would feel bladders in that G suit start to fill up, and fill up to different levels. 516 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,280 If you're really pulling hard, they fill up to the maximum state. 517 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:58,200 But what that did was it kept the blood from pooling in the lower part of your body. 518 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,160 Now as soon as you stopped pulling G's, it would deflate again, so it would inflate, 519 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,400 deflate, based on the number of G's you pulled. 520 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,920 But that just protected the bottom, or kept your blood from going pooling in the bottom 521 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,440 part of your body. 522 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:18,920 And you went into, when they start wearing full pressurized suits, is when you get up 523 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:26,960 into 45, 50, 50,000 range of altitude and above, which not none of the fighter pilots 524 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,960 are doing that. 525 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,440 So it's a G's, and that's the same thing they wear today, same G suit. 526 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,920 Okay, and a G is basically your body weight multiplied by however many that you're pulling. 527 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,000 Yeah, right, right, by a force of gravity. 528 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:47,040 And most airplanes at that time, you could pull about six G's. 529 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:53,080 I think people start passing out around seven or eight G's. 530 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,260 But each airplane had a G limit. 531 00:32:57,260 --> 00:33:01,800 So if you over G'd the airplane, pulled more than say six G's, then that airplane had to 532 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,320 be inspected when it came back. 533 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,480 And all the pieces would start flying. 534 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:06,680 Right, right, right. 535 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,720 And I'm sure the newer airplanes, I know they have G limits. 536 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,480 And it may be more, probably is more, I don't know. 537 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,000 But yeah, that was the only pressurized type suit that was the G suit. 538 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:25,600 Okay, I don't like to do this, but I'm going to kind of skip over Korea and get to Vietnam 539 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,800 time period because this is where there's so many changes in tactics and aircraft that 540 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,040 occurred there. 541 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:37,080 So Dwight, let's talk a little bit about what was going on at the beginning of the Vietnam 542 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,520 War and the 64-65 era. 543 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:50,960 Well, basically what happened was Korea was the last gas of the true dogfighting era. 544 00:33:50,960 --> 00:34:01,880 And when we had the F-86 Sabre, which was our last true dogfighting fighter craft, the 545 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:09,320 advances with jet-powered aircraft caused a reassessment of tactics. 546 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:18,600 And generally, I'm sure you were very familiar with the new training that was implemented 547 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:26,280 at the start of the 1960s that carried into the Vietnam War, in which instead of being 548 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:39,640 a dogfighting fighter, the aircraft was an interceptor, with the target being rather 549 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:47,800 another fighter, it was an enemy bomber, in this case, the Soviet bear and badger. 550 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,520 Yes, yes. 551 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,080 So I'd like your comment about that. 552 00:34:53,080 --> 00:35:01,760 Well, I can speak from the F-4 and at that time frame, the Navy and Marine Corps F-4s 553 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,840 didn't even have a gun on them, for example. 554 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:10,440 Everything was missiles, sidewinders and sparrows, which were designed, the sidewinder especially, 555 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,800 to hit targets beyond visual range, or BVR, they call it. 556 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,000 And you had a radar interceptor officer in the back and he would lock up a target and 557 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:26,160 you might fire on targets 5, 10, 15 miles away, never maybe see it visually. 558 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:34,280 When you got in closer, you used the sidewinder, which was strictly a heat seeker, but no gun, 559 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:35,280 not at all. 560 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:41,480 Now, the air force, eventually the Navy slash Marine Corps did put a gun pod on the F-4, 561 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,840 which looked like a big fuel tank underneath the airplane with a gun in that pod, but they 562 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,400 just weren't that accurate. 563 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:54,360 The air force at that time went to an internal gun, what their F-4s, they bought new F-4s 564 00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:00,560 with guns, internal gun, which was like the World War II fighter with a gun. 565 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,000 But it still wasn't that much gunfight and it was mostly with missiles, even against 566 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,240 other fighters. 567 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:14,040 You had mentioned that you didn't, luckily, did not run into any MiGs while you were there, 568 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:15,880 but you had heard about their tactics. 569 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:22,840 Dwight, you touched upon this in your book. 570 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:29,440 The general also said that the North Vietnamese pilots were by the book. 571 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:36,120 They were controlled more by ground controllers than they were by their own whims when they 572 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:37,120 took off. 573 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:48,440 What was really fascinating was that they were using their aircraft, the MiG-17 and 574 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:57,200 MiG-21s, were technically inferior to the F-4 Phantom and they were using the World 575 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:05,720 War II tactics that were rigidly Soviet-based, but they were still knocking our pilots out 576 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:10,720 of the sky, which was really an astonishing thing. 577 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:14,120 It was really hard to accept. 578 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,240 What the heck is going on here? 579 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:25,240 And it was simply a fact, perhaps oversimplifying it, by saying we were fighting a different 580 00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:29,200 aerial war than the North Vietnamese were. 581 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,240 General, would you agree with that? 582 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:38,320 In fact, the missile, the sidewinder, the Sparrow missiles, initially in Vietnam, many 583 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,360 times they would fire, but they wouldn't track. 584 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,440 So there was a lot of trouble, even with the missiles not being up to par with doing what 585 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,600 they should do. 586 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,800 And also, again, they would use those hit-and-run tactics. 587 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,840 I disagree with you a little bit on one area. 588 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,160 The MiG-21 was a pretty good airplane. 589 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:02,200 The advantage that the MiG-21 had was it was very small and it was hard to see. 590 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:09,760 In fact, we had a MiG-21 that had been captured or flown by one of the Arab Air Forces that 591 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,280 the United States government got a hold of. 592 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,960 And they showed a video of the F-4 and the MiG-21 flying beside each other from a distance. 593 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,280 And you could see the F-4 coming. 594 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,280 They're together. 595 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,320 You can see the F-4 coming because the F-4 also left a smoke trail, which the MiG-21 did 596 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,320 not. 597 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,800 And it wasn't until it got fairly close that you even saw the MiG-21 next to the F-4. 598 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:39,400 So it was a pretty good airplane in that respect, whereas the F-4, again, was easy to see because 599 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,280 of that smoke trail and didn't have a gun. 600 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,280 Okay. 601 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:44,720 Well, hey, that's all right. 602 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:49,200 I got that correction in there because we got a correction by a phone call, came in from 603 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,560 a Rosie the Riveter group. 604 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,080 Nancy from the Rosie the Riveter group. 605 00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:00,440 That will run said there were 8,600 B-24s constructed out of the 16,000 that were built in America 606 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:01,440 during World War II. 607 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,240 There were no B-17s built at will run. 608 00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:05,240 Right. 609 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:06,240 Right. 610 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:07,240 8,600 B-24s at will run? 611 00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:08,240 At will run alone. 612 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:09,240 Oh, wow. 613 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:10,240 I didn't notice that many. 614 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:11,240 That's right. 615 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:12,240 Well, Nancy, thank you very much for giving us a call. 616 00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:13,240 Yeah. 617 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:14,240 Correcting our information here. 618 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:15,240 Right. 619 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:19,680 One of the things Dwight that I couldn't find when we're talking about now getting into 620 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:27,840 the Top Gun era, I can't seem to locate it in your book right now, is that the kill ratio 621 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:37,000 of American fighter pilots to enemy fighter pilots was very high during World War II. 622 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,880 Some were in the neighborhood, I forget what exactly what it was, but that you found that 623 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,240 when we got to the Vietnam era, it had dropped down precipitously down to almost two and 624 00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:48,080 a half to one. 625 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,800 And that generated the change. 626 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:51,800 Yeah. 627 00:39:51,800 --> 00:40:05,080 At its peak, it was like 20 to one in World War I, World War II, and in Korea, it was 628 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,240 like 12 to one. 629 00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:17,120 And then in Vietnam, it dropped to 2.5 to one, which needless to say, that kind of attrition 630 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,480 is unacceptable. 631 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:20,960 Right. 632 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,960 Yes. 633 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:29,840 And so that's when the Navy sat down and decided to make some changes. 634 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:37,640 And this is really tough because they had already set up and bought into the whole interceptor 635 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:43,520 concept, which the general was very good at describing. 636 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:50,160 And now they had to completely rethink how they were going to conduct aerial combat and 637 00:40:50,160 --> 00:41:00,000 basically turn the F4 into a dogfighter, which it really wasn't designed to be. 638 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,000 Right. 639 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:13,120 And that's where Lieutenant Commander Peterson, he was given the open book to create what 640 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:19,000 became known as the Top Gun Fighter Pile Training Program. 641 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,200 Right. 642 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:27,320 General Henderson mentioned that he was missed going to Top Gun by two weeks. 643 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:33,000 We were in a class to go out, four of us from my squadron, and we actually got out there, 644 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,160 and then they turned right around and come back because something had happened, something 645 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:37,160 of logistics. 646 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,240 They had to delay the class or something. 647 00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:40,840 I can't remember exactly what it was. 648 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,920 This was in 1973. 649 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,240 So we ended up not going. 650 00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:49,720 We didn't make it. 651 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:57,840 Well, General, I would like to hear from your side what you were hearing about the Top Gun 652 00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:58,840 Program. 653 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:05,360 I've written about this historical thing, but you were there at the time. 654 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,080 So you're hearing from the other pilots. 655 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,080 So what was the feedback? 656 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,120 Oh, the Top Gun Program was great. 657 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,960 In fact, that turned everything around. 658 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,440 I mean, it started to turn around because now pilots were getting that additional training 659 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,040 before they went to Vietnam, and the ratio did change after that. 660 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,520 And also the Air Force started a school called Fighter Weapons School, which is equivalent 661 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,000 to Top Gun. 662 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:35,600 So both Top Gun covers the Navy and Marine Corps, and of course the Air Force was Fighter 663 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,480 Weapons at Nellis. 664 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:43,520 Both first class schools, and when you come out of there, you really know your aircraft 665 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,400 and your weapon system. 666 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,680 And you learn a lot about the adversaries aircraft. 667 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,800 There's a lot of air to air work against smaller airplanes that are typical of what 668 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,120 the adversary had. 669 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,000 So it's a first class school. 670 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:06,040 The other thing that impressed me too was the students who graduated from Top Gun, they 671 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,240 weren't just simply going to be the hot shot pilots. 672 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:15,560 Their mandate was also to take the training that they received and pass it on to others. 673 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:16,880 Tell me about that for you. 674 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:17,880 Oh yeah, yeah. 675 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:23,160 When they come back to a squadron, they were many times put in positions where they become 676 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,120 instructors in certain fields. 677 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:31,160 And they had the corporate knowledge of what the rest of the pilots didn't have who hadn't 678 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:32,160 been. 679 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:38,360 They did train and bring back knowledge that they learned at Top Gun, and it made everybody 680 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:39,360 better. 681 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,360 There's no question. 682 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:41,640 It had an immediate effect. 683 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:50,280 The ratio changed once these guys started going to Top Gun, and the kill ratio in Vietnam. 684 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:58,040 And you said as everybody's becoming a better and better pilot and the aircraft were modified 685 00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:59,040 and changed? 686 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,520 Well, no, the F-4 wasn't really modified. 687 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,880 It's hard to turn an airplane, modify an airplane to change it big time. 688 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,200 But the new airplanes that started coming out after that were smaller. 689 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,240 The F-16s were smaller. 690 00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:17,520 The F-14 was a big airplane. 691 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,560 But they started making the airplane smaller. 692 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,880 Some of them went to single pilot instead of two crewmen. 693 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,760 So that's the things they learned that was a lot of a result of Top Gun. 694 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,080 The F-4 was a big airplane. 695 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,760 The MiG-21, for example, was a small airplane. 696 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,080 But it was lethal. 697 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:45,120 The one thing that I was very fascinated about when I was doing my research was that the 698 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:55,000 original Top Gun instructors, they basically played test pilot with the F-4s, putting it 699 00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:02,880 through so many maneuvers and everything beyond the envelope, beyond what the manufacturer 700 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:03,880 advised. 701 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:04,880 That's correct. 702 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,680 Can you tell me something about that that you knew about? 703 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:15,800 Well, when I first got into the F-4, for example, I was in a school, they'd had the F-4 maybe 704 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,480 about three years when I got into it. 705 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:22,160 But when I first got into the F-4, they were very hesitant to do overhead maneuvers in the 706 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:27,560 F-4, like loops and things of that nature, because it was a heavy airplane. 707 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,760 And if you didn't do it exactly right with certain parameters, you could lose control 708 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,120 of the airplane. 709 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:42,720 So it was not designed like the airplanes are now to be as maneuverable as they are. 710 00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:48,880 But as time went on, when I finally got into the F-4, they started loosening up on what 711 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,480 you could do with the airplane, because some of that has resulted Top Gun, as you said, 712 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,200 they started doing things that hadn't been done in the airplane before, and they realized, 713 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,080 well, we actually can do it and survive. 714 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:09,360 So they taught methods to make you more effective as a fighter pilot, maneuvering the airplane 715 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,360 to its maximum limits. 716 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,000 I like that. 717 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,320 A lot of things learned in Top Gun. 718 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:23,080 Yeah, I'm looking at, we're talking with Dwight Zimmerman here, the author of Top Gun, 50-Year 719 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,800 Anniversary of Naval Air Superiority. 720 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,680 And his whole chapter here devoted to the Air Force's answer to Top Gun, which was called 721 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:30,680 Red Flag. 722 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:31,680 Right. 723 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:32,920 It's what it is. 724 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,080 And I think they're out there pretty close to where the Navy is, aren't they? 725 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,080 As far as they're looking for it. 726 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,920 Red flags at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas. 727 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,320 Top Gun was out of Miramar down in San Diego, but now I think they've moved up to LeMore 728 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,520 because Miramar became a marine air base. 729 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,720 But they're both in the desert. 730 00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:54,720 Good safe place to be. 731 00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:55,720 Right. 732 00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:57,480 Not a lot of people you could run into. 733 00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:58,480 Right. 734 00:46:58,480 --> 00:46:59,480 Right. 735 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:05,920 Yeah, right now, Top Gun is at Fallon, which basically is right next door to Nellis. 736 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:06,920 Oh, okay. 737 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,600 We've got about five minutes to go here. 738 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:14,640 So I wanted to kind of skip ahead a little bit if we can to the stealth aircraft and 739 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:22,800 how do those aircraft compare at all with as far as fighters from what you've learned, 740 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:23,800 Dwight? 741 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,200 Oh boy. 742 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:34,200 This is a real new chapter and that is being written. 743 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:40,960 The big difference is, of course, we don't have a human in the cockpit. 744 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,400 It's instruments. 745 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:53,440 The pilot, as it were, is sitting on a chair on the ground in a trailer or wherever, as 746 00:47:53,440 --> 00:48:04,080 much as half a world away, and using his controls to put the aircraft through its paces. 747 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:13,680 So, it's not limited by the problems that the general knows about blood rushing from 748 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:20,680 the brain and other problems associated with just human body limitations. 749 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:27,800 It's more mechanical. 750 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:36,240 Everything is going to get ripped off through a violent maneuver or stalling or whatever 751 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:40,720 can happen just from a mechanical standpoint. 752 00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:43,920 You were talking about the drones here, right? 753 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:44,920 Right. 754 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:45,920 Yes. 755 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:52,720 I think that that's going to be really interesting when you get to drone aircraft from opposite 756 00:48:52,720 --> 00:49:00,000 sides fighting like a big video game, only deadly for people. 757 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:06,000 This is where it's going to be interesting to see what the top gun movie sequel, how 758 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:13,000 it addresses that, because originally that sequel was supposed to be out now, but because 759 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:19,880 it's been working so closely with the Navy, they pushed back the release date a year, 760 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:24,360 which is no small thing, given how much money is involved in everything. 761 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:32,360 So that tells me that they are really investing in what's all happening with drone technology, 762 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:38,240 drone tactics, and how that's going to play out. 763 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:42,960 It looks like I see another book in mind for you. 764 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,680 When is the second movie supposed to come out? 765 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,120 June of next year, or it might be close to July, I think it's June 20th, something like 766 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:53,120 that. 767 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:54,440 Well, that ought to be, I'm looking forward to that. 768 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:55,440 That ought to be great. 769 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:56,440 That ought to be something. 770 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,600 I got a feeling he likes to watch. 771 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,320 Probably got top gun in his CD list, in his car and everything else. 772 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:09,480 I was going to do that earlier, and then I said, no, I think we'll just sit there listening 773 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,480 to the music. 774 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:18,680 All right, so the book is 50 Years of Navy Air Superiority. 775 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,560 Where can we get this, Mr. Zimmerman? 776 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,040 Well, thank you, Dale. 777 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:30,840 Top gun, 50 Years of Navy Air Superiority can be purchased at any fine bookstore, and 778 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:38,040 any bookstore that has it is definitely a fine bookstore, as well as Amazon and other 779 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,040 online outlets. 780 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:44,520 I was going to say, including the bookstore on the USS Intrepid in New York Harbor. 781 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:49,360 Oh, yes, I had a great time there. 782 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,360 I can only imagine. 783 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:57,320 And of course, all your other books are available at these other fine bookstores, correct? 784 00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:58,320 Yes. 785 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:04,680 Well, Dwight, I want to thank you very much for being on the program today, and I'm going 786 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:11,000 to ask you a favor if we could get a copy of your book signed by you that I could give 787 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:12,000 to the general. 788 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:16,120 Oh, I'd be happy to, Dale. 789 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,120 I will, yep. 790 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,600 I'll get you the information. 791 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:24,600 Yeah. 792 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,800 And, no, that's my pleasure. 793 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:34,640 I honored, sir, and thank you for your service, and Dale, you as well. 794 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:46,560 One of the things that I am humbled about is that I wind up having, my skill set has 795 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:54,400 been able to tell your guys' story, and, Dale, you're familiar enough with it, and I just 796 00:51:54,400 --> 00:52:06,200 know, thank you to you guys, you are amazing individuals, and that I'm able to take my 797 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,800 skill and help tell your stories to the larger audience. 798 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:18,680 I feel that's my role as a bridge, you know, to bring your stories to a civilian audience. 799 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:23,320 Well, we're most appreciative, and you do an excellent job of telling the story so that 800 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:28,640 everybody can understand it, and, you know, not just military people, it's always exciting 801 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,840 to see what you've got coming out next. 802 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:31,840 Yeah. 803 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,520 I want to thank you in advance for your, thank you for writing the book, and then thank 804 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:40,680 you in advance for me getting a copy of it, and I've really enjoyed talking to you. 805 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:41,840 Me too. 806 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,720 Okay, so we're coming up to the end of the hour here. 807 00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:47,120 I think I've got about a minute left or less. 808 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,560 This is not in his head at me. 809 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,560 I don't know. 810 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:55,280 By the way, Dwight, thank you very much for being on the program. 811 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:56,520 We'll be in touch. 812 00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:01,080 Let me know when you've got another bestseller coming out. 813 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:02,080 Okay. 814 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,160 All right, and General Henderson, I want to thank you very much for being on our program 815 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:07,160 today. 816 00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,160 General Henderson is a local young man. 817 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:10,600 He's from the Ann Arbor area. 818 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:15,680 Went to Pioneer High School, Eastern Michigan University, and I want to welcome him for 819 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:16,680 that. 820 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,840 I want to remind everybody to tune in next week on Veterans Radio. 821 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,520 We're going to be looking at post-matic stress treatments. 822 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:51,400 And dismissed.