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All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.

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This is Veterans Radio.

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Welcome to Veterans Radio.

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I am Jim Fausone.

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I'm the officer of the deck today.

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We've got some great programs for you.

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I think you'll find very interesting.

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We always want to remind you you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site

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or at the web.

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VeteransRadio.org is our new URL, VeteransRadio.org.

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Where we're on the web 24-7, you can find a lot of our podcasts there as well.

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We post new ones every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a new interview, something

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you didn't know before by going to VeteransRadio.org.

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And before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors.

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First up, we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org.

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It was established to certify both service disabled and veteran owned businesses.

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You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org.

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We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans.

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Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans disability rights all across the nation.

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You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at LegalHelpForVeterans.com.

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We want to welcome to VeteransRadio today Yolana Darte.

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She is a law professor.

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Don't let that scare you now.

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We're going to talk about veteran issues.

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She's an assistant professor of law and director of the Veterans Legal Clinic at the University

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of Illinois in Chicago.

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Yolana, welcome to VeteransRadio.

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Hi, Jim.

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Thanks so much for having me today.

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Well, professor, you wrote an opinion piece that caught my attention.

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It was published in The Hill.

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It's titled Veteran Basic Income Could Be the Solution the VA has been searching for.

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And any of us in the veteran space know VA continues to search for solutions.

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But before we get there, tell us a little bit about your educational background and

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how you got yourself focused on veteran issues.

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Yeah, so coming into law school, I had the opportunity to work in a Veterans Legal Clinic.

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And one of the things that I want to mention is that I was a student in this clinic.

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I was really interested in helping veterans because my dad was a Vietnam veteran, was

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drafted in 1970.

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And seeing what veterans go through day to day, I was interested in helping and seeing

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what I could do.

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And that inspired me to continue on this path to helping veterans.

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I saw the roadblocks that VA puts in front of them.

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All of the hoops that the federal government requires of veterans.

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And I kept down this path.

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I became an attorney helping veterans do this work.

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And then I had the opportunity to start the Veterans Legal Clinic at Syracuse University

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in 2015.

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And so I was there for a few years working with veterans, starting that clinic.

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I did some VA benefits work and discharge upgrades with veterans and teaching law students

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how to do this work.

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And then I came back to Chicago.

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Marshall turned into University of Illinois, Chicago.

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And we are continuing to do this work, helping veterans and thinking about the bigger issues,

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the policy issues behind it as well.

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Well that's very interesting.

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There's always a story like why somebody started down this path.

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And it's obviously dad here.

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So that's good to know from our end of it.

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And your time at Syracuse University, which has a great reputation in the veteran space,

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was about four and a half years, 2015 to 2019.

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And every law school legal clinic's a little bit different.

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So tell us what the focus is for the University of Illinois at Chicago's School of Law Legal

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Clinic.

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Yeah, it's changed over the years.

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But at present, we are looking to help veterans get access to VA healthcare.

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Many of our clients have lower than honorable discharges.

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Some of that stems from mental health diagnoses that they didn't have at the time.

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And they ended up committing some misconduct.

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Sometimes it's marijuana use.

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Sometimes they went AWOL after a really traumatic event.

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And helping them upgrade that discharge, try to get them access to VA healthcare, and potentially

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VA benefits.

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So that's been our main focus.

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But really we take it, we look at who comes in our doors, see what veterans need, and

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see if we can assist them.

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We are looking to see what our community needs.

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And we don't really try to dictate where we end up.

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We try to see what our clients are asking for and how we might be able to use our lawyer

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skills and teaching law students how to be lawyers.

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Well the Discharge Upgrade 1 in particular, there are very few places that help out on

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that.

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And it is sort of a specialized niche.

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So I'm glad to hear you do that.

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Talk to us about who can walk in the door and seek assistance at the University of Illinois

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in Chicago.

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So geographically we are limited to the state of Illinois.

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So we have clients from all around the state, from Chicago all the way downstate close to

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St. Louis.

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We will work with anyone in the state.

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We don't have any income thresholds.

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And so one of the benefits is those veterans who kind of fall in between legal aid and

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being able to afford an attorney, we can help that population who needs the assistance.

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And like you said, Discharge Upgrade, it's really hard to find an attorney to do that

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work because there is no availability for a fee.

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So the attorney will only get paid if the veteran can afford it.

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Yes, it's really a tough road to go to get that change on the upgrade.

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And without that you lack opportunity for a lot of other benefits.

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You've been doing this for over a dozen years now working in the veteran space and it's

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given you an opportunity to see a lot of different issues.

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Your opinion piece in the Hill begins talking about, hey, VA was supposed to solve all of

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its problems through the Appeals Modernization Act, sometimes referred to AMA and the trade,

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but maybe it didn't work out.

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So what frustrations did you see that said, I got to think about a policy approach that's

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different?

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The wait times.

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And I think we hear about this all the time, how long veterans are waiting just for a decision.

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Many times our clients come to us hoping to have this resolved quickly, hoping that the

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VA will finally recognize a disability, recognize that it's related to service.

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And the kind of crushing feeling that you have to tell a client, this might take five

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years, this might take even longer based on what we have.

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That's really been probably the hardest conversation and I've had it so many times, it's still

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a hard conversation to have with a client to say, this is the next step and this is

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the timeframe that we're looking at.

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That really pushed me to write this piece with these timelines are a bit unforgivable.

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The federal government's here to serve our veteran population and they're not doing it.

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You point out that if your appeal is going up to the Board of Veterans Appeals, it's

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41 months right there.

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And that's not the longest piece of this whole process, it's just a definable piece.

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The whole process is, as you say, kind of not too surprising, the hard ones take five

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years or so.

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That's absolutely frustrating.

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But you also mentioned, and I think this is important, it's the setup for why maybe veterans'

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basic income is appropriate.

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The, I'll call it a disconnect between medical science and what veterans really experience

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and this need for a medical nexus that seems to take on a life of its own.

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So explain that a little bit.

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Yeah, so part of the process, as probably many of your listeners know about, are the

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compensation and pension exams or we call them C&P examinations.

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Those examinations may take 15 minutes, may take a couple hours, depending on how thorough

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the examination is.

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And sometimes the examiner just does not understand what's in the record, you know, what happened

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in the service, they don't think about the relationship between what happened in the

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service and the current disability.

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And they get caught up in the cycle of incomplete and adequate examinations coming from VA,

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and then the VA adjudicators were lying so heavily on these medical opinions because

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they were coming from a medical professional.

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And it's really hard to get out of this cycle of reliance on the examination until you

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have somebody who's really trained to identify that these are not done well.

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So one of the issues is the issues of the actual exam itself.

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But the other one is these studies, like the toxic exposure studies, take a really long

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time to define that relationship between an exposure to some toxin, for example, camp

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lejeune, and disabilities that arise, typically cancers and how likely they are to relate.

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Cancers don't show up right away, it might take a few decades for the VA to recognize

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this as a cause of the cancer.

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But by that point, many, many veterans have had this cancer already who don't have the

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benefit of that, we call presumption, that there's a legal relationship between that

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exposure and the diagnosis.

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Yeah, and it's interesting, you referenced this a little bit and I want to highlight

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it, which is on those long studies that the Center for Disease Control and Prevention,

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CDC has to do to sort of make this leap, is there really a medical connection, maybe even

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a presumption for things like Agent Orange or burn pits.

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Some of these studies are not really focused on subgroup of veterans, and by that I mean

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women, veterans of color.

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So you're kind of, science and reality are just a little out of phase in some of this

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work, isn't it?

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Absolutely, I think that's a big concern when they're lumping everyone into a general

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population view, rather than like you said, a subcategory to see, do our women veterans

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who were exposed to this have higher levels of certain cancers compared to the civilian

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counterparts?

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And all of this kind of mixed in to make the whole thing take longer and make people frustrated.

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And that led you to think about whether veteran basic income would be a solution to this.

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Tell us what basic income is about and how you thought, well, this is a policy to consider.

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Yeah, so, you know, for many years, folks have been talking about a basic income in

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a general sense, should we give our citizens, our people in this country, a basic income,

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a monthly income that would have no strings attached to it.

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And I started thinking about in the veteran space, should we start thinking about a basic

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income, something where it would be similar to compensation, a monthly check to every

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veteran who gets out of the service.

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So we don't have to keep dealing with this bureaucratic system.

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I think many of us will tell you, especially lawyers in this space and veteran service

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organizations, that the system is broken.

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It works for many, but there are many who are left out of this system.

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And requiring veterans to have to prove that they're cancers related to toxins that they

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were exposed to in the military, to prove that they had a traumatic event that they

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had to live through, and now have to tell that story.

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Lots of my clients will stop pursuing a case because they don't want to have to tell their

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story again and again.

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And feel like, to be honest, the government just doesn't believe them.

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And I think it's on us to start thinking about how do we stop this harm of the VA benefits

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process and think about healing veterans, making sure they have the treatment that really

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we promise when they enter and they sign that contract.

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And some people might reflect back that this whole discussion of what was being called

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universal basic income was part of the presidential campaign.

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Andrew Yang was the advocate of that.

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But it's used in different countries for a lot of different reasons.

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And it's nothing.

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And I think there are some cities in the United States who've played with this concept, haven't

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they?

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Yeah.

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The University of Chicago had a pilot program where they gave folks, I think it was $500

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a month in basic income to see, did that change the trajectory of their life, having housing,

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having steady income coming in?

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Does that make a difference in outcomes?

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Thinking about health outcomes, thinking about the holistic person outcomes.

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That's really in early stages I know here in Chicago and in other cities and states.

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We're still in those early stages to see what those outcomes will look like.

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So I think those data points are still out.

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Yeah.

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It may not be firmed up yet, but I think as you suggest in your article, it probably will

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reduce homelessness.

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It probably has a positive impact on mental health.

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It probably reduces suicide rates.

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You can see the connection between some basic income for veterans and some of these other

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problems, can't you?

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I can.

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And I think lots of our clients would benefit from having this like, there's a term for

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this like safety net is what I was looking for.

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A safety net for veterans where when they come out of service, they are able to move

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on to the next thing.

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If that's work, if that is schooling, to have something there to catch them for a bit,

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to make sure that they move forward and then continuing on.

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I think homelessness is the biggest concern that we have, especially in a lot of our client

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population, making sure that they have secure housing.

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Well we're talking to Professor Yelana Dorte from the University of Illinois and Chicago

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School of Law who wrote an op-ed piece and talked about veterans basic income.

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And it made me think of things like you just mentioned transitions.

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We've been talking to veterans for so long.

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I hear so much from them about how the first anywhere certainly from one or two to up to

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six years of transition out of the military is really tough in part because they don't

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have the structure in part because they don't have the network in part because they don't

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have that constant income they were so used to.

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I mean there are a lot of ways to think about basic income might be helpful in that transition

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period.

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And certainly for those you mentioned low income.

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For those veterans who are low income who need to avoid things like homelessness because

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you're not going to get a job if you don't have an address.

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There's a lot of ways to think about this.

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What kind of response have you gotten from folks as you've put this idea out and is anybody

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developing it further?

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Yeah I've had lots of different responses.

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I've had responses where some veterans have reached out thanking me for putting this out

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there.

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You know that this has been a really hard struggle for them to get VA benefits and they

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felt like they were seen and heard through this piece.

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And so those meant a lot to me is to think veterans really have a positive response to

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it.

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I've had others who were very dismissive who think you know this may never happen.

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I think with Congress the way it is with our population I don't know how far this will

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go.

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There may be some perspective in that way.

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I think that's a very valid response on practicality.

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Well yeah but if you think every issue is not going anywhere there's no sense putting

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any forward and part of putting something forward is it does highlight the underlying

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problem and looks for solution.

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There might be a different solution but this might be one for some group of veterans as

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well and it may not solve it for everybody right?

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Absolutely.

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Yeah and I think we can think about this as a big idea right but we can think about this

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as a smaller piece to this.

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Just the transition time.

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Could there be a basic income for a period of time when someone gets out right to have

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a softer landing.

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And so thinking about this as not like just one big idea but maybe smaller pieces can

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start the conversation for Congress members who are thinking about what can we do so veterans

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have an easier transition.

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And you also promoted this and this is interesting because you tied it to a current problem.

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How does this impact recruiting?

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Absolutely.

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I think recruiting right now is at its all time low or pretty close to an all time low.

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The Navy has reduced its standards recently no longer requiring a high school diploma

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which has been a requirement for some time now.

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So we're seeing that the military is responding to these changes right and folks wanting to

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enlist.

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If veterans knew or I guess there would be civilians at that point knew that there could

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be a basic income the GI bill this may allow more people to want to serve our country.

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And I think it's really important for us to think about this as we're going through a

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really scary time right now politically internationally.

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Oh yeah national security.

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Heck yes.

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Yeah I think we need to think about how do we incentivize this more for folks to want

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to enlist who want to serve our country.

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Yeah I think you're right if you think about it in terms of a recruiting benefit just as

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the GI bill is not every kid's going to say well I'm going to go to college when I get

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done here but every kid would know hey I'm going to get X when I come out as well for

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this period of time and let me transition back.

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Interesting ideas from a recruiting standpoint.

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So one of the things I did when I was doing a little research to talk to you professor

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was you know get on the search engine and look this issue up and it was interesting

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I found a Reddit thread from about a year ago where they posed this question and they

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used a thousand dollars a month as the hey should we have a veterans basic income of

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a thousand dollars a month and it's a small sample size but 59% of the people said yes

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it's only 272 people who responded to the thread but it was interesting that there was

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a very positive reaction you can't get 60% of any group in America agree on anything

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I don't think maybe this has got more legs to it than you might think.

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Yeah it's always surprising to see the positive response to it because I really did think

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this is going to have a more negative response you know people talk about it like a handout

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but I also think we need to shift the framing of it as a compensation for their service.

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Well it's a benefit and just like folks may say the disability benefit or the healthcare

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benefit is a handout it's something you earned and you know there's a lot of ways you could

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think about this that the amount of your basic income or the length of time you get the basic

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income is somehow related to how long you serve right if it's only two years it's this

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much but if it's four years it's this much it just there's a lot of ways to think about

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it if there's discussion on the larger policy issue.

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Absolutely and I think that's the great thing about an OPAD is this idea pushed forward

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and then we can reimagine it in different ways.

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Well let's come back to the issue of the law clinic at University of Illinois Chicago.

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Tell us a little bit more about the number of folks you have in the Veterans Legal Clinic

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and the number of clients that you're able to serve.

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Yeah so there are two attorneys myself and another attorney in our office.

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We usually have somewhere between 12 and 16 law students who are working for us each semester

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so each semester is about 13 weeks and they work on three or four cases each working individually

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with the clients trying to help them tell their stories.

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In the clinic right now we have about 300 veterans we're working with.

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Some of those veterans we have submitted briefs and now we're just waiting for the very long

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board wait and some of them we are waiting on for records and so there's a lot of wait

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times as many of the folks probably listening know about the wait times in VA but also even

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just to get records can be some wait times and so in the clinic the veterans we work

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with have the opportunity to work individually with law students who are learning how to

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interview clients, counsel clients but they work so closely with the veterans they get

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probably the best legal service that anyone can provide because they have so much time

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with each individual veteran.

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Oh absolutely and it's important and satisfying work important as your dad knows and satisfying

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as you know from doing it for over a dozen years.

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We want to- Absolutely it's probably the best work I've ever done.

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We're really appreciative of the time that you've spent with us Professor Yolanda Darte

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from the University of Illinois Chicago School of Law from its veterans legal clinic to talk

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about your iPad and the whole concept of veteran basic income just maybe solve some of the

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VA problems that veterans face.

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It is a big idea and worth pushing forward and having discussions on and we're glad that

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you did it.

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Thanks so much for your time I really appreciate the invite.

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And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today I am Jim Fawson.

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It's been a pleasure to be your host I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help

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for Veterans and you can reach us at 800-6934800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web.

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You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet radio

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shows by visiting us at veteransradio.org that's veteransradio.org.

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And until next time you are dismissed.

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If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals contact Legal Help for

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Veterans at 1-800-6934800.

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They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims.

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Their number again 1-800-6934800.

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We again want to thank our national sponsors the National Veterans Business Development

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Council NVBDC.org VA Ann Arbor Healthcare System the Vietnam Veterans of America Charles

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S. Kettles Chapter Ann Arbor, Michigan VFW Graff O'Hara Post 423 in Ann Arbor and the

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American Legion Press Corn Post 46 also in Ann Arbor.

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We appreciate all your support you can go to veteransradio.net click on the sponsor level

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and continue to support keeping Veterans Radio on the air.

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And until next time you are dismissed.