Welcome to Veterans Radio.
I am Jim Fausone.
I'm the officer of the deck today.
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We're going to cover two interesting stories today.
One is we're going to talk to a young veteran who goes by the name of, or the handle, maybe,
of millennial veteran, Jenna Carlton, to give her view on a number of issues which is kind
of much different than the Vietnam era or even the early Gulf era.
So I think this will be interesting for you.
And then we're going to reach back and acknowledge that NATO is 75 years old and talk to a couple
of representatives talking about whether or not is NATO still relevant and is everybody
in NATO doing their part?
So that also will be an interesting discussion.
So hang on.
We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today, Navy Veteran Jenna Carlton.
Jenna, welcome to Veterans Radio.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
Well, we're going to talk to Jenna.
She is also known as the millennial veteran.
She is active on all sorts of different social media programs.
Facebook, she has a group.
Instagram, a big group does VET chats live on Instagram.
And she has, among other things, a monthly opinion piece and task and purpose.
She recently wrote on the recruiting crisis, and that's particularly caught my attention
and said, I got to talk to Jenna and get the view of a younger vet.
Now let me set this up, if you will, Jenna, and you can correct any mistakes I make.
You were a nice Wisconsin girl graduating from high school, and you thought, I should
join the Navy.
Yes, yes, pretty much.
I had an uncle who served, and he really talked me into it, said, you know, you're going
to see the world, you're going to get out of Wisconsin, and I was sold.
I was excited to have a new experience.
So she served four years in the United States Navy from 2013 to 2017, got out as a petty
officer second class.
You were, and I don't think I've ever spoken to anybody who was an AeroGrapher's mate,
and you deployed on the Harry S. Truman.
Tell us what you did in that capacity.
Yes, so, AeroGrapher's mate is weather meteorology, oceanography.
So I was trained as an observer, a weather observer, so basically I told you what was
going on now, and that's pretty important for pilots, you know, they need to know where
the ceilings are at for cloud bubbles, what's the wind speed's at.
So I did a lot of briefing pilots on the carrier.
And that part of getting out of Wisconsin was to see the world, so did you get a chance
to do that?
Yes, I did.
Yep, on that deployment we went to Dubai, we went to Greece, we went to Croatia, and
we went to Bahrain.
So I definitely got to see a lot of the world, and it was a lot of fun.
You are not in Wisconsin anymore at that point.
No, far from it.
I always get a kick out of folks in the Navy because generally there are folks who were
not on the ocean's edge.
You know, somebody from Iowa or Nebraska or Illinois or Wisconsin makes it to the Navy.
Now at least Wisconsin, you say, well I had a great lakes, I knew a big water was, but
so it was an uncle who talked you into this.
You still talking to him?
Yes, oh yes.
Well one of the other things that you were able to do after the Navy, I assume, is use
your GI Bill and you picked up your bachelor's degree in public policy from St. Mary's College
of Maryland in 2020.
Am I correct in that?
Yes, yep.
And as part of that, I think you get an internship at the House of Representatives which probably
helped ignite your interest in public policy.
Yes, it absolutely did, and that's where I got to really work with a lot of the public
and a lot of veterans and hear a lot of, you know, how policy is, how the sausage is made
as they say.
Yeah, some of that stuff you don't want to see because it's not very pretty.
We're going to back up to her time on the carrier in a minute, but she's currently working
at Naval Air Systems Command as a government employee.
I've been doing that for a couple of years there.
Do you want to explain briefly what that role is about?
Yes, so as you can see, the politic route did not work out, so I ended up working back
for the Navy as a civilian and I currently do contracts.
Okay, well, I have to back up to this story because she told it to me before we got started
and said it was okay to bring it on the air.
So you met your future husband while you were on the Truman Dinshia?
Yes, I did.
I met him in our last court, and this was in Greece.
And we were all dressed up for a friend's birthday and me and one of my friends, we
stepped out of the bar to get a breather and we went down to another quiet bar.
And as soon as this guy walked in with us, he said, I'll go somewhere quieter with you
guys.
So we walk into this other bar, he walks in with two pretty girls and it was a British
football team, soccer team, and they whistled at us girls.
And my future husband, he said, hey, you can't do that to them and they just jumped on him
and he got knocked out.
He was bleeding and then his friends came and took him away because if you served in
the Navy, you know there's such thing as shore patrol.
They're like police officers that are dressed as civilians and they report on anyone misbehaving,
so they took him away.
So if you want to get caught.
And then I never got his last name, so I didn't see him the rest of the deployment.
And then about six months later, we were united at a going away party.
I saw him there and we started dating ever since.
Well, there's a five year old daughter that's very thankful that you were on the Truman
in Greece observing a bar fight so that you could connect with your future husband.
And unfortunately, all too many folks who've been in the Navy or any service who've been
away for out on ship for a long time, you get into port and you maybe drink too much
and you got a lot of pent up energy.
So I'm sure all of that was part of that evening, but it all worked out, didn't it?
It was meant to be, I guess.
Well, you've taken those experiences from your Navy time and your time on the house
and thought about how veterans of your generation are being treated or not treated, heard or
not heard, and it really has launched you into this passion of being a veteran advocate.
As I say, the millennial veteran is the name that you use on a lot of these sites.
Talk to us about how that evolved and how it brings you to where you are today.
Yes.
So like I mentioned, I did my internship and then when I got out, I joined the local Legion
and I realized that I was the youngest one by about 20 years.
I'm me and my husband and so when we come in, they would call us the millennial veterans.
All the young people are here.
So it just got me wondering, where are all the younger veterans?
I live near a base, so I figured there would be more out and about or wanting to be a part
of something like the Legion.
And then as the pandemic hit, I started reaching out online to other people that have gotten
out and just trying to share advice on benefits or schooling.
So yeah, that's kind of how I started my online thing, trying to get younger veterans involved
because I realized a lot of them don't realize they have a whole community and they have
benefits that they can turn to.
A lot of veterans like to isolate themselves.
It's very easy to feel you're the only one in this.
Everybody else is going through what I'm going through and nothing could be further from
the truth.
And part of that is about 30% of veterans have some sort of disability rating from VA, which
means a big group of veterans, 70% or so, don't have those situations arise in their
life.
But it's real easy if you're in that 30% group or otherwise struggling in transition to think,
well, I'm the only one who's never had a job or I'm the only one who hates the job that
I've gotten.
And as you've talked to literally thousands and interacted with thousands of younger
veterans, what are some of the themes that you hear?
Yes, yeah.
I hear a lot about isolation.
I hear a lot of people who delay getting help.
And I think every generation, all generations, we have the same problem since war has started
really coming back, reentering into society, having injuries, either physical or mental.
But I think what changes per generation is how you want to seek care.
What do you want to remedy all these old age problems?
And I think a lot of younger veterans are more open to mental health.
Right now, the VA just doesn't have that mental health care that matches the demand in the
community.
So that's something I've seen that's been kind of a bigger problem with younger veterans.
One of the also differences between the Vietnam era where I fit myself into in today's veterans
is the increase in women who have served in the military and then become veterans.
Any additional themes that you've heard from that cohort?
Yes, that's a great point, Tom, because the veteran community is becoming more female.
And we need the VA to also reflect that.
But yes, and we need to make sure women feel comfortable in these spaces and just having
more women involved will help change that.
Yeah, we now have more women in leadership positions, Secretary of State commanders of
their services, that sort of thing.
So it really is just hopefully changing and clearly for the better.
As you've talked to folks and thought about these issues, it kind of led you to write
this opinion piece on all of the services are missing their recruiting goals.
And you can't keep doing that and have national security.
So Jenna, I guess I wanted to get your views on the recruiting problem that the military
faces and what kind of compelled you to write the opinion piece that you did on this issue
from the point of a younger veteran?
Yes, so I went out to the military influencer conference and they had a panel which I attended
and it was the VA press secretary.
There's a lot of big names up there, the president of MOA.
And they were talking about how veterans should share their stories and be involved in helping
the recruiting crisis, which it's a great sentiment and I wish it was that easy.
But I couldn't help but thinking about sometimes the hardest part of serving is the aftermath
and the lifelong injuries that our veterans are living with.
And sometimes that's the most painful part is continuing your life after service with
these life altering injuries and not being helped, which you were promised to be helped
through the VA.
And so I kind of took the opinions of when I worked in Congress and I would get folks
of the Vietnam era calling in, you know, needing help but not qualifying due to different
parameters.
And then also the messages that I get daily from people who have served, especially women
who have had MST and just all those opinions were swirling in my head and I was like, I
got to say something, you know.
I think a lot of us would love to advocate about the great experiences but also we can't
just ignore the pain that it's caused.
So that's really where I was writing from.
And you see this reflected in the studies done by the RAND Corporation or IAVA just
came out with a survey of women warriors this summer and they got a chance to talk to Allison
Jaisalow, their president and CEO over that.
You still have 50 or 70% depending on the stats of people recommending, you know, would
you recommend to your family members, friends that they consider joining the military?
And I'm kind of surprised by that number sometimes because it's not for everybody.
And particularly, you know, just coming out of a 20 year war, hopefully we're not going
back into anything.
It's a different type of service if you're not in a war.
But so many people don't serve at the front line.
Everybody's got these different experiences and I suppose I'm interested if you think
overall younger veterans would be much lower than 50% approval of or recommendation of
going into the military?
Oh, yeah, I would be curious to know that as well.
Especially for, you know, younger veterans are having less deployments.
They're not going to have that combat experience as other generations.
But still, I think the most harmful thing is what I hear the most is just the culture
of the military.
And I've had people reach out to me that have served of all eras and say, yes, you know,
I've seen such a shift in just how military leadership is.
And I think that's one of the biggest pain points is just that disconnect between leadership
and creating a culture of being able to reach out for help or just better communication
all around.
The military is a big organization.
If you work for any big organization, communications from the top down is always a challenge and
seems like it always gets changed as it keeps working its way down.
But one of the things you said in your opinion piece was that you felt many of the younger
veterans were given unrealistic expectations of what our military service would be like.
Are you referring to what the recruiter told you or the image that, you know, your uncle
or Hollywood or something else put in your head is about how this would be in the Navy?
I'm referring to all of it.
Just how society portrays service.
Even recruiters, of course, you know, they're going to tell you anything to get you to sign.
Yeah, you can't believe the thing they tell you.
That's what I tell everybody who asks.
Take whatever the recruiter says with a grain of salt.
Oh, absolutely.
And definitely Hollywood.
They put this image.
You're doing a heroic thing.
You're going to be changing the world.
You know, when I joined the Navy slogan, what they were pushing was a global fight for good.
So I really thought that I was out there, you know, maintaining that.
And I think a lot of us are kind of fed that image.
And then when you join, you realize, okay, you know, maybe America's not the shining
hero that I thought it was, you know, I witnessed a lot of terrible things the military accidentally
did to other countries.
And you know, you're just putting things in perspective in that way, which is, you know,
it's kind of hard to come to terms with.
Some of this is the difference between being 19 year olds and being late 20s, right?
I mean, don't you, is it hasn't your world view just evolved?
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that that's very true.
And most of us, we joined at 18, 19, you're joining at that age.
And so, you know, once you get in there and you see it for what it is, it's something
you got to deal with.
I call it, everyone has mixed feelings about their service in that way.
One of the other things you write about, and I think this, I'm curious as to a younger
veterans view on the transition out of service, you know, back in the day, there was no, the
word transition didn't exist.
You were in one day, out the next.
Hopefully, you could find some civvies to wear.
But there seems to be a bigger emphasis on recognizing that there does need to be a transition
out.
But as you point out, the first year out is when the risk of suicide is highest, are we
doing enough in transition and getting people ready for it, for that big change in lifestyle?
I think we're doing great in, you know, there's a lot of career avenues because, you know,
you're not going to get out and it's really hard to meet that same paycheck.
I think they're pretty practical on that, but when it comes to the identity piece or
how you're going to fit into society, I think we're sugarcoating that a little bit.
And I can just tell by some of the, I do a lot of short little clips on Instagram and
I have people reaching out to me all the time saying, I thought I was the only, I thought
I was the weirdo.
I thought I was, you know, so alone, I thought there was something wrong with me on why I
didn't fit in or why I couldn't get myself together after the military.
So I think we just need to be more honest and understand that yes, being tough and being
mission oriented and all those things that helped us in the military aren't necessarily
going to help us in the civilian world.
And we just need to start having more conversations like that.
Yeah.
And you use the word identity, which I think is pretty interesting because you have a certain
identity when you're in uniform, right?
And when you come home and you see your friends and they know what you're doing, you have
this identity exists and maybe it's blown up a little bit, but it exists.
When you get out, you no longer have that identity.
A word I like to use as purpose.
You have to have a purpose too in life.
Otherwise, you do sit on the couch, wallow and think about, you know, things like harming
yourselves, which you shouldn't do.
Is that a little bit of what we're not helping veterans with enough is to have them realize
it's going to take some time to have a new identity, to find a new purpose, to find the
right job?
We all think this is going to happen immediately, don't we?
Right.
Yeah.
That's so important because so much of our identity in the military, you know, society
puts us kind of on a pedestal like they're out there, they're fighting for us.
You know, you're doing something good with your job.
And then you get out and you like I went from, you know, being in the Navy to being a college
kid and they're one of the most, you know, looked at as like entitled people.
You know, so it was just hard to go from military personnel to college or, you know, some people
are getting out and having to take a lower paying job.
And it's just, it kind of messes with you.
It's like, what's my purpose?
You know, what's my next mission looking like now?
And I just think we could be more honest about how that's going to affect us because I don't
know anyone who hasn't experienced that.
This is, you know, just Jim's experience from years of talking to folks about this transition
issue and look at that.
I hear her.
How good is that?
My two year old just came home too.
I'm sorry.
Not a problem.
And my thought, my thought is that we're not honest with folks or we, we don't pass on
what we've learned.
It, it takes about honestly six years after you get out to go through, maybe it's some
more college or education, maybe it's two or three lousy jobs before you figure out the
one you really like.
It doesn't happen in the first year or second year or third year.
It may take six years before you go, man, I really feel solid now.
Have you experienced that at all?
Have you heard from folks who said, yeah, those first couple of years were horrible,
but I really feel like I'm grounded now.
Yes.
And I get that question a lot.
People are like, how long does it take?
They want to know how, how long does it take for you to go through this transition phase?
And I'm like, it's different for everyone.
Absolutely.
I think six years is a good number, more realistic than what people plan on like six month adjustment
period.
I think we need to give ourselves more time and a lot more understanding, you know, it
is a process and it's not going to be an overnight thing.
And not only do we have to give it, we veterans have to give that timeline in ourselves more
patience and more allowance for the time to go by, but we also have to communicate that
to our family because whether it's mom or dad or uncle or spouse, they're all thinking
like, man, what's taking so long?
And the reality of it is it just takes a long time and it is different for everybody.
And I'm just picking the number that I kind of have played with with the folks in the
past to get there.
And I think both the veteran and his or her circle of friends and family have to understand
it.
And I don't think they do, do you?
No, no, and it's something you're right.
I think we need to remind military personnel as they're getting out to identify that support
system and, you know, say those phrases like, hey, I'm going to be different.
You know, I'm not the person who, who left for the military.
You know, I was 18 at that time and now I'm coming back.
I'm not going to be the same person.
I think a lot of families get frustrated with that or even, you know, they're, they're
not used to them being around as much.
So it can create issues, but, but yeah, they'll never fully understand.
But they can have, they can have more compassion for you during that time.
That's great to communicate.
Yeah, that's what you're looking for is just a little more compassion from those folks
who want to be helpful, but they just sometimes don't know how and don't really realize how
long it's going to take because you've got a lot of stuff to sort out finding your new
identity, finding your new purpose.
So as we wrap up, we're talking to Jenna Carleton.
She is the millennial veteran on Facebook and Instagram.
Jenna talk, give us, give our veteran radio listeners some idea of how they can follow
along on what you're doing.
Yes.
So I'm most active over on Instagram.
And I also, we also have a weekly podcast that comes out Sundays at nine is when we're
live on Instagram.
And then I usually have it posted Monday morning on the podcast.
I also have a workbook that I self published for veterans to kind of work through a lot
of the things we just talked about finding community that purpose after service, you
know, diving into your new identity and really setting yourself up for the next chapter the
best way you can.
And you could find a link to that also on my Instagram.
Well, I'm also on LinkedIn, but I'm not as consistent over there.
And you have a Facebook, the millennial veteran has a Facebook site as well.
It seems fairly active.
Yep, we have a Facebook group and we have a lot of chats in there.
People are always online, which is good because, you know, I encourage people to reach out
if you're feeling isolated or lonely, someone's always going to be active on there and be
able to talk to you.
Well, we appreciate everything that you're doing for veterans.
Probably a nice Wisconsin girl went to the Navy, found a husband in Greece and now has
two chatty daughters.
That's great.
And we're glad for all that you're doing out there and spending a little time with veterans
radio today.
Thank you so much for having me on, Jim.
It's been such a pleasure.
So there's a view from our younger veterans from the Navy in this particular case, touching
on a lot of issues from recruiting to transition to VA healthcare for women and mental health
availability.
So good to hear that perspective.
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We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today two retired Navy officers, Vice Admiral Kevin
Green and Captain Bruce Lemkin.
Admiral, welcome to Veterans Radio.
Thanks very much.
Happy to be with you.
And Captain, welcome to Veterans Radio.
Thank you, Jim.
Good to be here and good to have my classmates, Admiral Kevin Green, on with us.
Yeah, let me set this up a little bit.
Both of these gentlemen graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1971, and they
are both fellows currently with the American College of National Security Leaders.
And we have them on, not because both of them have really interesting military careers,
we're going to let them describe in brief momentarily, but we really want to talk about
the North Atlantic Treaty Organization or NATO, which is celebrating its 75th anniversary
and they have some viewpoints on that.
So Admiral, why don't you give us the thumbnail of your military career.
Sure.
Again, graduate of the Naval Academy, I served principally in destroyers during my career
and rode on that aircraft carriers that see later my career both as a destroyer squadron
commander and as a battlegroup commander.
My final military assignment was as the deputy chief of naval operations for plans, policy
and operations, which brought me very close to NATO, which had been a central thread of
my career and professional relationships throughout my time in uniform.
Yeah, it's a fascinating career.
We could spend the whole time on that.
And similarly, Captain Lemkin, Bruce, why don't you tell us about your career in the
nuclear submarine field?
Sure.
And again, thank you for having us today.
I'm an Naval Academy graduate as well as you said.
I was selected by Admiral Rick over to serve in the nuclear submarine program, served in
six nuclear submarines, including command of the USS Ironman G. Rickover, Los Angeles
class, Bass Attack submarine and USS Michigan, then was a Trident ballistic missile submarine.
All my sure duty was in the Pentagon and a lot of time on the Navy staff as well as the
joint staff.
I retired in 1999 and was asked since I had been negotiating with North Korea to lead
our negotiations on implementing the 1994 Greed framework to dismantle North Korea's
nuclear weapons program.
That worked out great.
And I then came back into government early in the Bush administration and served through
some of the Obama administration for eight and a half years.
The last seven years as the Deputy Under Secretary of the Air Force for International Affairs,
I did a lot of work with NATO during that time frame.
And while I had done operational work with NATO, most of which I can't talk about when
I was a sub-reader, I was involved in a broad array of support for NATO, both policy and
ensuring that NATO had the interoperable aerospace capabilities to partner with us against common
threats.
And we have both of you guys on.
As I said earlier, you're fellows of the American College of National Security Leaders.
Admiral, why don't you tell us what that organization is?
Well, first of all, it's a non-partisan organization.
We don't take a partisan political stance on any of the issues we cover, but we take
advantage of the hundreds and hundreds of years of professional experience on the part
of our members who are retired generals, admirals, senior defense and State Department officials,
including quite a number of ambassadors, who are focused on national security and other
critical issues facing the United States.
We attend and take part in conferences.
We do a lot of writing.
We speak as well.
And our focus is entirely on the security and future of the United States in what appears
to be an increasingly dangerous world.
Yeah, I think everybody would agree that just on the nightly news, you see how things are
getting more dangerous all around the world, whether it's China or Korea or Russia or Ukraine.
And that sort of gets us to the central reason we're talking, and that we're approaching
the 75th anniversary of NATO.
And both of these gentlemen are big thinkers.
We're not going to ask them where they graduated at the Naval Academy.
You know, I'm sure they were one and two or two and three, but in any event, they're
big thinkers.
They've got all this great experience.
Bruce, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about the history of NATO and
what you see as the value of NATO?
Yes, thank you.
So NATO was founded 75 years ago, the wake of the end of World War II.
And you know, that was such a huge conflict that required a lot of blood, sweat, tears,
national treasure, however you want to put it.
And there was a feeling that we needed to ensure this wouldn't happen again.
Similar to what we said after World War I, the Great War, the war to end all wars and
then low and behold, 20 years later, we were in World War II.
And the rise of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, the Warsaw Bloc, really provided an
incentive for European nations to unite for the common defense.
Of course, US leadership was essential and this also was in parallel with the Marshall
Plan where the US did so much to ensure the revival of the economic health of Europe,
particularly Western Europe.
The military aspect was very important in NATO.
General Eisenhower was the first Supreme Allied commander of Europe and NATO has continued
to grow.
It's continued to demonstrate its relevance and value and evolve and transform as the
situation in the world has changed.
There was the demise of the Soviet Union and then, of course, some time after that, the
rise of another adversarial Russia and also the rise of transnational terrorism and threats
throughout the Middle East and actually, of course, globally.
And we are all globally interdependent, whether it's security-wise, defense, economics, etc.
So NATO has continued to be relevant, as I said, and its relevance today, I would say,
is probably greater than it ever has been.
And now we've got 32 members with the accession of Finland and Sweden into the alliance.
And if we can just go back to 9-11, the attack on the, the terrorist attack on the United
States in 2001 was the first time that Article 5 of the NATO Charter was implemented.
An attack on one is an attack on all.
Again, I think of nothing more illustrative of how effective this alliance is.
Well, let me jump in there because I think that's what people's knowledge of history
is short and their even memory of the current events is pretty limited.
Admiral, when we look at NATO today and the terrorist threats, talk to us a little bit,
Kevin, about how valuable it is to have NATO from the viewpoint of the American College
of National Security Leaders.
Sure, Jim.
Let's just begin with a recognition of a central fact.
The primary mission of NATO is collective defense and deterrence against potential aggression
against any of its members, wherever those threats occur and exist.
When we look at the situation, you mentioned Ukraine.
And if you live in Eastern or Central Europe and you're a neighbor to Ukraine, well, pick
a country, pick Poland, for example, you find yourself in the role as a first responder
in the event that Russia moves further beyond the borders of Ukraine.
Russia, if it should threaten the Baltic states, Poland itself or any other countries within
the NATO alliance, Poland is truly a first responder.
And how do we back up Poland?
We back it up with the rest of NATO.
We back it up logistically with troops, with weapons, with the whole panoply of capabilities
that the NATO nations provide and carry out.
We in the United States are far away.
It takes some time for us to send materials and troops and so forth, if they're not already
in Europe, to be able to respond in the event that an invasion or a movement further western
in the western direction takes place.
But even more crucially is the issue of deterrence.
It's a message to those who would threaten the NATO nations.
And that message is NATO is strong, NATO is unified, NATO is ready, NATO is capable, and
no attack on the alliance is going to succeed.
That's really what this is all about.
So let me bring up a couple of contra issues.
I suppose you only get a little snippet of this on the general news, but at times it
seems the American leaders complain that everybody in NATO is not carrying their weight in terms
of contribution, whether it be financial or military resources.
How do you respond to that kind of comment, Captain Limpkin?
Yeah, you know, it depends on how you hold the lights and mirrors on that and how you
interpret that.
You know, in 2014 NATO established what was really is an aspirational policy that each
country strives to commit 2% of its gross defense domestic product for its military.
Not a price of admission, but again, it's a target.
And this year, 18 of the 31 NATO members are expected to meet that objective.
That's a record, but you know, that's just the money aspect.
Go back to in the wake of 9-11 and Operation Enduring Freedom and the NSF and the international
security force that was mustered to deal with the terrorist threats that emanated from Afghanistan.
Really every member of NATO at the time participated and suffered losses.
So this wasn't, yes, US paid the greatest price, certainly in terms of our loss of the
human losses.
That said, this was a collective effort, and Justice Adler Green mentioned, about collective
security and ultimately that spells deterrence.
The mission is to ensure we are ready, we are ready collectively as an alliance and that
will provide a deterrence against any adversary that would attack a NATO member or its interests
in the world.
Yeah, and we tend to focus just on things going on in Europe, but there are threats
all over the world and being able to work cooperatively with other countries seems extremely
important, doesn't it, Adler Green?
Absolutely, and when we talk about providing security for member nations of NATO, as an
alliance, the nation's interests go beyond the military, of course.
It goes to the ability to travel and trade and communicate across the globe.
And if there are threats that exist somewhere other than the European landmass or the adjoining
waters, then absolutely.
I mean, we had thousands and thousands of NATO troops in Afghanistan.
We had their capabilities across the span of the military systems, programs, and capabilities
that they possessed.
Not anything new about that, really.
My initial exposure to NATO was in the summer of 1970 on a West German torpedo boat up in
the North Sea and doing NATO's job in a 135-foot boat against these Germans and the Soviets
and the Poles.
And when I would talk with the officers about where are we doing this, the point all those
years ago was about demonstrating the readiness of NATO, not just the readiness of West Germany,
but the readiness of NATO to respond to anything that could be perceived as a threat against
the alliance.
That point never left my mind.
Well, Adler, that requires training and the ability to communicate and cross-country planning.
I mean, it's really a big issue to get that degree of cooperation, isn't it?
Absolutely is.
And that's why we, within the NATO community, we have officer exchange programs.
The ships that I served on had NATO officers from Italy, from Germany, from other countries
as well.
And we fully man our positions on the NATO staffs, and it is a very smoothly-running
organization in terms of planning, in terms of political considerations, in terms of readiness,
and the technical side as well.
Captain, it seems to me that you kind of have to look at NATO on the other side of the coin.
Some people say United States ought to be in isolationist.
Just worry about your own stuff and not everybody else's involvement.
But by being in NATO, it's a force multiplier, isn't it, Bruce?
Well, absolutely.
And I'm glad you brought this up, because there's, you know, our collective memory sometimes
is somewhat fuzzy.
You know, our fathers, certainly my father, fought in World War II in Europe.
Our grandfathers, both my grandfathers, fought in Europe on World War I.
And then you look at, so are we going to learn those lessons?
NATO deters the next war in Europe, which might not start in Europe.
And if deterrence fails, we will not be fighting alone.
This also gets to another issue that I've heard people say, or address, or question.
You know, I've had people say to me, well, why do we have troops in Germany to defend
Germany?
Why can't they defend themselves?
Well, as part of the alliance, of course, we're working on our interoperability and our collective
security, but there's another aspect.
We're over there, so the war does not come over here.
We will deter the conflict in Europe, just as we do in South Korea and Japan and other
areas of the world.
So this is, we can't stand alone and survive in what is truly a global world.
And that's a lesson that we have to keep reminding ourselves of.
No, I think you're right.
And you touched on something I'm going to ask the admiral to comment on.
And that is this idea that a war may start in Europe or may not start in Europe, while
something's going on over in the Pacific with China and Taiwan or North Korea.
You need to be able to have defense and deterrence really all around the world if you're in the
United States.
How does this come into play as you think about it as related to NATO?
Well, I will just repeat something that a former chief-enabled operations used to talk
about, and that's when asked about the size of the US fleet, he said, well, the fleet
of the United States and our allies is about a thousand ships altogether.
The whole notion of fighting alone or deterring alone, probably more importantly, is bankrupt
today.
We need to work closely with our allies.
We need to make sure that they're ready, that we are fully interoperable across every capability
that we have with regard to intelligence, with regard to equipping, with regard to weapons
systems, with regard to communications.
We need to practice together, and that's true everywhere in the world.
There is no better model, however, with regard to peacetime military alliances than NATO.
And after all, NATO has been successful for 75 years, enjoying just that.
In deterring major combat in Europe that would spread elsewhere, we have been somewhat less
successful in other parts of the world for lack of other kinds of alliances that can
be so helpful to us.
Over time, those alliances and the connections that are made and the bonds that are made,
not only between the military members, but also the civilian governments, just get stronger
and stronger, doesn't it, Bruce?
Oh, absolutely.
And the ability to communicate, the ability to be interoperable, and interoperability
is a concept that many people don't understand, and that's understandable because it's not
something they have to live with.
It's not about being able to talk to one another if you're flying different aircraft
or in ships that were manufactured in different places.
It's about understanding each other, about training together, operating together, so
if you need to, you can fight together as one.
And that's what NATO does better than any other arrangement, security arrangement, alliance
or otherwise.
Admiral, why don't we wrap up here?
You're wearing your hat as a fellow of the American College of Natural Security leaders.
I think Captain Lentkin just gave us a good closing remark from his end, but I'm going
to give you an opportunity to do the same.
Well, I thank you, Jim, and all I would say is simply to reiterate that we need to be
very thoughtful about the friends that we make, the friends that we value, all of whom
have something to contribute to our security.
Most people can figure out how to fight a fire.
Most people can figure out how to deter a burglar, let's say, but there's nothing like
a professional.
And the professionals of our NATO partners at the scene of where a conflict could erupt
someday is a warming and reassuring thought.
We need to be sure that we are the kind of partners that contribute to our joint security,
to our combined security.
And understand that it is a very dangerous world.
It seems to be becoming more dangerous as time goes on.
We need to think twice before we decide to look away from those kinds of arrangements
and capabilities that are going to protect us and the lives and futures of our children
and grandchildren.
NATO is part of that.
Well, we really appreciate the time that Vice Admiral Kevin Green and retired and Captain
Bruce Lumpkin retired from the Navy have given us as fellows of the American College
of National Security Leaders to talk about NATO and its 75th anniversary here.
Gentlemen, thank you for participating with Fetrin's radio today.
Thanks, Jim.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you, Jim.
Thank you for the great work that you do, and we appreciate this opportunity.
Well, there's the viewpoint of a couple of old salty dogs from the Navy on NATO, I think,
instructive.
Sorry about the sound quality there.
Both of these gentlemen, having worked in the military for so long, have bad hearing
and have hearing aids, I think, but probably supplied by the VA.
And we couldn't figure out how to get the squeal out of that soundtrack, as well as allowing
them to hear.
They had a head of time, but if they took their hearing aids out, they couldn't hear
the questions.
So I guess that's about as true veteran-orientated as you can get.
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