1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,900 Welcome to Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:20,560 I am Jim Fausone. 3 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,880 I'm the officer of the deck today. 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:24,760 We've got some great programs for you. 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,760 I think you'll find very interesting. 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:34,640 We always want to remind you you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,280 or at the web. 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:43,680 VeteransRadio.org is our new URL, VeteransRadio.org. 9 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,880 Where we're on the web 24-7, you can find a lot of our podcasts there as well. 10 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:55,520 We post new ones every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a new interview, something 11 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,160 you didn't know before by going to VeteransRadio.org. 12 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,600 Before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors. 13 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:13,860 First up, we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org. 14 00:01:13,860 --> 00:01:19,520 It was established to certify both service disabled and veteran owned businesses. 15 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:26,080 You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org. 16 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,600 We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. 17 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:35,120 Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans disability rights all across the nation. 18 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:45,760 You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at LegalHelpForVeterans.com. 19 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,160 We're going to cover two interesting stories today. 20 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:55,840 One is we're going to talk to a young veteran who goes by the name of, or the handle, maybe, 21 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:02,760 of millennial veteran, Jenna Carlton, to give her view on a number of issues which is kind 22 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:08,000 of much different than the Vietnam era or even the early Gulf era. 23 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,960 So I think this will be interesting for you. 24 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:17,640 And then we're going to reach back and acknowledge that NATO is 75 years old and talk to a couple 25 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:25,200 of representatives talking about whether or not is NATO still relevant and is everybody 26 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,880 in NATO doing their part? 27 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,760 So that also will be an interesting discussion. 28 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,240 So hang on. 29 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:37,720 We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today, Navy Veteran Jenna Carlton. 30 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,520 Jenna, welcome to Veterans Radio. 31 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:40,520 Thank you. 32 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:41,840 Thank you so much for having me. 33 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,480 Well, we're going to talk to Jenna. 34 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,600 She is also known as the millennial veteran. 35 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:52,240 She is active on all sorts of different social media programs. 36 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,640 Facebook, she has a group. 37 00:02:54,640 --> 00:03:00,040 Instagram, a big group does VET chats live on Instagram. 38 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:07,560 And she has, among other things, a monthly opinion piece and task and purpose. 39 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,960 She recently wrote on the recruiting crisis, and that's particularly caught my attention 40 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,000 and said, I got to talk to Jenna and get the view of a younger vet. 41 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,680 Now let me set this up, if you will, Jenna, and you can correct any mistakes I make. 42 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:26,720 You were a nice Wisconsin girl graduating from high school, and you thought, I should 43 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,720 join the Navy. 44 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,080 Yes, yes, pretty much. 45 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,760 I had an uncle who served, and he really talked me into it, said, you know, you're going 46 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,680 to see the world, you're going to get out of Wisconsin, and I was sold. 47 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,640 I was excited to have a new experience. 48 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:52,520 So she served four years in the United States Navy from 2013 to 2017, got out as a petty 49 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,480 officer second class. 50 00:03:54,480 --> 00:04:00,360 You were, and I don't think I've ever spoken to anybody who was an AeroGrapher's mate, 51 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,360 and you deployed on the Harry S. Truman. 52 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,720 Tell us what you did in that capacity. 53 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:12,560 Yes, so, AeroGrapher's mate is weather meteorology, oceanography. 54 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,440 So I was trained as an observer, a weather observer, so basically I told you what was 55 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:22,400 going on now, and that's pretty important for pilots, you know, they need to know where 56 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,240 the ceilings are at for cloud bubbles, what's the wind speed's at. 57 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:33,560 So I did a lot of briefing pilots on the carrier. 58 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,320 And that part of getting out of Wisconsin was to see the world, so did you get a chance 59 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:39,440 to do that? 60 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,440 Yes, I did. 61 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:48,080 Yep, on that deployment we went to Dubai, we went to Greece, we went to Croatia, and 62 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:49,080 we went to Bahrain. 63 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:55,520 So I definitely got to see a lot of the world, and it was a lot of fun. 64 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,640 You are not in Wisconsin anymore at that point. 65 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:00,880 No, far from it. 66 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,120 I always get a kick out of folks in the Navy because generally there are folks who were 67 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,600 not on the ocean's edge. 68 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:13,160 You know, somebody from Iowa or Nebraska or Illinois or Wisconsin makes it to the Navy. 69 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:18,640 Now at least Wisconsin, you say, well I had a great lakes, I knew a big water was, but 70 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,840 so it was an uncle who talked you into this. 71 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:22,840 You still talking to him? 72 00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:25,640 Yes, oh yes. 73 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,400 Well one of the other things that you were able to do after the Navy, I assume, is use 74 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,280 your GI Bill and you picked up your bachelor's degree in public policy from St. Mary's College 75 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:38,400 of Maryland in 2020. 76 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,400 Am I correct in that? 77 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,520 Yes, yep. 78 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:48,600 And as part of that, I think you get an internship at the House of Representatives which probably 79 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,520 helped ignite your interest in public policy. 80 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:58,440 Yes, it absolutely did, and that's where I got to really work with a lot of the public 81 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:04,360 and a lot of veterans and hear a lot of, you know, how policy is, how the sausage is made 82 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:05,360 as they say. 83 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,760 Yeah, some of that stuff you don't want to see because it's not very pretty. 84 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,400 We're going to back up to her time on the carrier in a minute, but she's currently working 85 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,240 at Naval Air Systems Command as a government employee. 86 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,800 I've been doing that for a couple of years there. 87 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,600 Do you want to explain briefly what that role is about? 88 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:30,880 Yes, so as you can see, the politic route did not work out, so I ended up working back 89 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,560 for the Navy as a civilian and I currently do contracts. 90 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:40,560 Okay, well, I have to back up to this story because she told it to me before we got started 91 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,720 and said it was okay to bring it on the air. 92 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:51,960 So you met your future husband while you were on the Truman Dinshia? 93 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,120 Yes, I did. 94 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:59,120 I met him in our last court, and this was in Greece. 95 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,080 And we were all dressed up for a friend's birthday and me and one of my friends, we 96 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,800 stepped out of the bar to get a breather and we went down to another quiet bar. 97 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:15,360 And as soon as this guy walked in with us, he said, I'll go somewhere quieter with you 98 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:16,360 guys. 99 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:21,600 So we walk into this other bar, he walks in with two pretty girls and it was a British 100 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,800 football team, soccer team, and they whistled at us girls. 101 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:32,880 And my future husband, he said, hey, you can't do that to them and they just jumped on him 102 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,480 and he got knocked out. 103 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:41,240 He was bleeding and then his friends came and took him away because if you served in 104 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,720 the Navy, you know there's such thing as shore patrol. 105 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:49,800 They're like police officers that are dressed as civilians and they report on anyone misbehaving, 106 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:50,880 so they took him away. 107 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,520 So if you want to get caught. 108 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,760 And then I never got his last name, so I didn't see him the rest of the deployment. 109 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,880 And then about six months later, we were united at a going away party. 110 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,840 I saw him there and we started dating ever since. 111 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:14,920 Well, there's a five year old daughter that's very thankful that you were on the Truman 112 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:23,040 in Greece observing a bar fight so that you could connect with your future husband. 113 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:30,400 And unfortunately, all too many folks who've been in the Navy or any service who've been 114 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:35,360 away for out on ship for a long time, you get into port and you maybe drink too much 115 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,000 and you got a lot of pent up energy. 116 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:45,600 So I'm sure all of that was part of that evening, but it all worked out, didn't it? 117 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,200 It was meant to be, I guess. 118 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:54,800 Well, you've taken those experiences from your Navy time and your time on the house 119 00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:04,920 and thought about how veterans of your generation are being treated or not treated, heard or 120 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:14,280 not heard, and it really has launched you into this passion of being a veteran advocate. 121 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:20,320 As I say, the millennial veteran is the name that you use on a lot of these sites. 122 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:27,800 Talk to us about how that evolved and how it brings you to where you are today. 123 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:29,440 Yes. 124 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:36,720 So like I mentioned, I did my internship and then when I got out, I joined the local Legion 125 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,720 and I realized that I was the youngest one by about 20 years. 126 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:46,560 I'm me and my husband and so when we come in, they would call us the millennial veterans. 127 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:48,880 All the young people are here. 128 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,800 So it just got me wondering, where are all the younger veterans? 129 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:58,200 I live near a base, so I figured there would be more out and about or wanting to be a part 130 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,480 of something like the Legion. 131 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,240 And then as the pandemic hit, I started reaching out online to other people that have gotten 132 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:13,040 out and just trying to share advice on benefits or schooling. 133 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,320 So yeah, that's kind of how I started my online thing, trying to get younger veterans involved 134 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:23,960 because I realized a lot of them don't realize they have a whole community and they have 135 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,600 benefits that they can turn to. 136 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,920 A lot of veterans like to isolate themselves. 137 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,160 It's very easy to feel you're the only one in this. 138 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,120 Everybody else is going through what I'm going through and nothing could be further from 139 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:38,520 the truth. 140 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:45,760 And part of that is about 30% of veterans have some sort of disability rating from VA, which 141 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:52,160 means a big group of veterans, 70% or so, don't have those situations arise in their 142 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:53,640 life. 143 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,800 But it's real easy if you're in that 30% group or otherwise struggling in transition to think, 144 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,640 well, I'm the only one who's never had a job or I'm the only one who hates the job that 145 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,360 I've gotten. 146 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:11,440 And as you've talked to literally thousands and interacted with thousands of younger 147 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,160 veterans, what are some of the themes that you hear? 148 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,080 Yes, yeah. 149 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:21,160 I hear a lot about isolation. 150 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,280 I hear a lot of people who delay getting help. 151 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:32,320 And I think every generation, all generations, we have the same problem since war has started 152 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:40,400 really coming back, reentering into society, having injuries, either physical or mental. 153 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:45,640 But I think what changes per generation is how you want to seek care. 154 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,600 What do you want to remedy all these old age problems? 155 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,560 And I think a lot of younger veterans are more open to mental health. 156 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:00,880 Right now, the VA just doesn't have that mental health care that matches the demand in the 157 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:01,880 community. 158 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:08,280 So that's something I've seen that's been kind of a bigger problem with younger veterans. 159 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:17,000 One of the also differences between the Vietnam era where I fit myself into in today's veterans 160 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:24,480 is the increase in women who have served in the military and then become veterans. 161 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,920 Any additional themes that you've heard from that cohort? 162 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:35,080 Yes, that's a great point, Tom, because the veteran community is becoming more female. 163 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,000 And we need the VA to also reflect that. 164 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,880 But yes, and we need to make sure women feel comfortable in these spaces and just having 165 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,360 more women involved will help change that. 166 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:53,840 Yeah, we now have more women in leadership positions, Secretary of State commanders of 167 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,640 their services, that sort of thing. 168 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:02,120 So it really is just hopefully changing and clearly for the better. 169 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:07,600 As you've talked to folks and thought about these issues, it kind of led you to write 170 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:14,080 this opinion piece on all of the services are missing their recruiting goals. 171 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,120 And you can't keep doing that and have national security. 172 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:24,360 So Jenna, I guess I wanted to get your views on the recruiting problem that the military 173 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:32,280 faces and what kind of compelled you to write the opinion piece that you did on this issue 174 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,880 from the point of a younger veteran? 175 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:42,800 Yes, so I went out to the military influencer conference and they had a panel which I attended 176 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,880 and it was the VA press secretary. 177 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,280 There's a lot of big names up there, the president of MOA. 178 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:57,760 And they were talking about how veterans should share their stories and be involved in helping 179 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:04,520 the recruiting crisis, which it's a great sentiment and I wish it was that easy. 180 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:10,960 But I couldn't help but thinking about sometimes the hardest part of serving is the aftermath 181 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,480 and the lifelong injuries that our veterans are living with. 182 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:23,920 And sometimes that's the most painful part is continuing your life after service with 183 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:30,160 these life altering injuries and not being helped, which you were promised to be helped 184 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,680 through the VA. 185 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:38,840 And so I kind of took the opinions of when I worked in Congress and I would get folks 186 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:46,640 of the Vietnam era calling in, you know, needing help but not qualifying due to different 187 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:47,640 parameters. 188 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:55,440 And then also the messages that I get daily from people who have served, especially women 189 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:03,200 who have had MST and just all those opinions were swirling in my head and I was like, I 190 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:04,720 got to say something, you know. 191 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:10,320 I think a lot of us would love to advocate about the great experiences but also we can't 192 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,960 just ignore the pain that it's caused. 193 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,040 So that's really where I was writing from. 194 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:23,680 And you see this reflected in the studies done by the RAND Corporation or IAVA just 195 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:30,200 came out with a survey of women warriors this summer and they got a chance to talk to Allison 196 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,320 Jaisalow, their president and CEO over that. 197 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:43,080 You still have 50 or 70% depending on the stats of people recommending, you know, would 198 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:49,760 you recommend to your family members, friends that they consider joining the military? 199 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:56,560 And I'm kind of surprised by that number sometimes because it's not for everybody. 200 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,400 And particularly, you know, just coming out of a 20 year war, hopefully we're not going 201 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,440 back into anything. 202 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,920 It's a different type of service if you're not in a war. 203 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:12,240 But so many people don't serve at the front line. 204 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:19,760 Everybody's got these different experiences and I suppose I'm interested if you think 205 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:27,760 overall younger veterans would be much lower than 50% approval of or recommendation of 206 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,960 going into the military? 207 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:36,880 Oh, yeah, I would be curious to know that as well. 208 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,720 Especially for, you know, younger veterans are having less deployments. 209 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,160 They're not going to have that combat experience as other generations. 210 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:53,280 But still, I think the most harmful thing is what I hear the most is just the culture 211 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,120 of the military. 212 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:01,400 And I've had people reach out to me that have served of all eras and say, yes, you know, 213 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,800 I've seen such a shift in just how military leadership is. 214 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:11,840 And I think that's one of the biggest pain points is just that disconnect between leadership 215 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:21,920 and creating a culture of being able to reach out for help or just better communication 216 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:23,920 all around. 217 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,880 The military is a big organization. 218 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:33,640 If you work for any big organization, communications from the top down is always a challenge and 219 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,600 seems like it always gets changed as it keeps working its way down. 220 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,600 But one of the things you said in your opinion piece was that you felt many of the younger 221 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:48,400 veterans were given unrealistic expectations of what our military service would be like. 222 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:55,960 Are you referring to what the recruiter told you or the image that, you know, your uncle 223 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:03,080 or Hollywood or something else put in your head is about how this would be in the Navy? 224 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,360 I'm referring to all of it. 225 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,800 Just how society portrays service. 226 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:15,000 Even recruiters, of course, you know, they're going to tell you anything to get you to sign. 227 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,800 Yeah, you can't believe the thing they tell you. 228 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,680 That's what I tell everybody who asks. 229 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,600 Take whatever the recruiter says with a grain of salt. 230 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,200 Oh, absolutely. 231 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,200 And definitely Hollywood. 232 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,240 They put this image. 233 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,160 You're doing a heroic thing. 234 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,840 You're going to be changing the world. 235 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,680 You know, when I joined the Navy slogan, what they were pushing was a global fight for good. 236 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:45,000 So I really thought that I was out there, you know, maintaining that. 237 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,240 And I think a lot of us are kind of fed that image. 238 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:55,240 And then when you join, you realize, okay, you know, maybe America's not the shining 239 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:02,120 hero that I thought it was, you know, I witnessed a lot of terrible things the military accidentally 240 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,280 did to other countries. 241 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:10,320 And you know, you're just putting things in perspective in that way, which is, you know, 242 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,720 it's kind of hard to come to terms with. 243 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:24,400 Some of this is the difference between being 19 year olds and being late 20s, right? 244 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,800 I mean, don't you, is it hasn't your world view just evolved? 245 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:29,800 Yes. 246 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:30,800 Yeah, absolutely. 247 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,120 And I think that that's very true. 248 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:39,320 And most of us, we joined at 18, 19, you're joining at that age. 249 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:47,440 And so, you know, once you get in there and you see it for what it is, it's something 250 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,080 you got to deal with. 251 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:57,000 I call it, everyone has mixed feelings about their service in that way. 252 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:02,040 One of the other things you write about, and I think this, I'm curious as to a younger 253 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:08,000 veterans view on the transition out of service, you know, back in the day, there was no, the 254 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,560 word transition didn't exist. 255 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,880 You were in one day, out the next. 256 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,280 Hopefully, you could find some civvies to wear. 257 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:21,400 But there seems to be a bigger emphasis on recognizing that there does need to be a transition 258 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:22,400 out. 259 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,120 But as you point out, the first year out is when the risk of suicide is highest, are we 260 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:37,440 doing enough in transition and getting people ready for it, for that big change in lifestyle? 261 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:45,280 I think we're doing great in, you know, there's a lot of career avenues because, you know, 262 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,440 you're not going to get out and it's really hard to meet that same paycheck. 263 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:56,360 I think they're pretty practical on that, but when it comes to the identity piece or 264 00:20:56,360 --> 00:21:03,400 how you're going to fit into society, I think we're sugarcoating that a little bit. 265 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,640 And I can just tell by some of the, I do a lot of short little clips on Instagram and 266 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,600 I have people reaching out to me all the time saying, I thought I was the only, I thought 267 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,840 I was the weirdo. 268 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:21,640 I thought I was, you know, so alone, I thought there was something wrong with me on why I 269 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:26,840 didn't fit in or why I couldn't get myself together after the military. 270 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:33,120 So I think we just need to be more honest and understand that yes, being tough and being 271 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:38,600 mission oriented and all those things that helped us in the military aren't necessarily 272 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,200 going to help us in the civilian world. 273 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:46,080 And we just need to start having more conversations like that. 274 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:47,080 Yeah. 275 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:52,920 And you use the word identity, which I think is pretty interesting because you have a certain 276 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,400 identity when you're in uniform, right? 277 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,240 And when you come home and you see your friends and they know what you're doing, you have 278 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,480 this identity exists and maybe it's blown up a little bit, but it exists. 279 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,120 When you get out, you no longer have that identity. 280 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:08,880 A word I like to use as purpose. 281 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,280 You have to have a purpose too in life. 282 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:16,680 Otherwise, you do sit on the couch, wallow and think about, you know, things like harming 283 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,400 yourselves, which you shouldn't do. 284 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,480 Is that a little bit of what we're not helping veterans with enough is to have them realize 285 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:30,480 it's going to take some time to have a new identity, to find a new purpose, to find the 286 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,200 right job? 287 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,080 We all think this is going to happen immediately, don't we? 288 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,080 Right. 289 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,080 Right. 290 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,080 Yeah. 291 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:44,200 That's so important because so much of our identity in the military, you know, society 292 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,960 puts us kind of on a pedestal like they're out there, they're fighting for us. 293 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,360 You know, you're doing something good with your job. 294 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:55,440 And then you get out and you like I went from, you know, being in the Navy to being a college 295 00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:01,880 kid and they're one of the most, you know, looked at as like entitled people. 296 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:09,320 You know, so it was just hard to go from military personnel to college or, you know, some people 297 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,480 are getting out and having to take a lower paying job. 298 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,880 And it's just, it kind of messes with you. 299 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,120 It's like, what's my purpose? 300 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:22,040 You know, what's my next mission looking like now? 301 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:27,160 And I just think we could be more honest about how that's going to affect us because I don't 302 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,760 know anyone who hasn't experienced that. 303 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:38,240 This is, you know, just Jim's experience from years of talking to folks about this transition 304 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,960 issue and look at that. 305 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:42,960 I hear her. 306 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:43,960 How good is that? 307 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,960 My two year old just came home too. 308 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:48,960 I'm sorry. 309 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,080 Not a problem. 310 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,000 And my thought, my thought is that we're not honest with folks or we, we don't pass on 311 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,000 what we've learned. 312 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:03,480 It, it takes about honestly six years after you get out to go through, maybe it's some 313 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:08,840 more college or education, maybe it's two or three lousy jobs before you figure out the 314 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,440 one you really like. 315 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,400 It doesn't happen in the first year or second year or third year. 316 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,960 It may take six years before you go, man, I really feel solid now. 317 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,440 Have you experienced that at all? 318 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,880 Have you heard from folks who said, yeah, those first couple of years were horrible, 319 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,120 but I really feel like I'm grounded now. 320 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:28,120 Yes. 321 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:29,120 Yes. 322 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:30,640 And I get that question a lot. 323 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,640 People are like, how long does it take? 324 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,680 They want to know how, how long does it take for you to go through this transition phase? 325 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,920 And I'm like, it's different for everyone. 326 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:39,920 Absolutely. 327 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:46,280 I think six years is a good number, more realistic than what people plan on like six month adjustment 328 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:47,280 period. 329 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:53,360 I think we need to give ourselves more time and a lot more understanding, you know, it 330 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,960 is a process and it's not going to be an overnight thing. 331 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:03,760 And not only do we have to give it, we veterans have to give that timeline in ourselves more 332 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:09,800 patience and more allowance for the time to go by, but we also have to communicate that 333 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,760 to our family because whether it's mom or dad or uncle or spouse, they're all thinking 334 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,160 like, man, what's taking so long? 335 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:22,920 And the reality of it is it just takes a long time and it is different for everybody. 336 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,840 And I'm just picking the number that I kind of have played with with the folks in the 337 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,080 past to get there. 338 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:35,320 And I think both the veteran and his or her circle of friends and family have to understand 339 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,320 it. 340 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,840 And I don't think they do, do you? 341 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,040 No, no, and it's something you're right. 342 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:47,480 I think we need to remind military personnel as they're getting out to identify that support 343 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,800 system and, you know, say those phrases like, hey, I'm going to be different. 344 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,480 You know, I'm not the person who, who left for the military. 345 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,280 You know, I was 18 at that time and now I'm coming back. 346 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,800 I'm not going to be the same person. 347 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:06,240 I think a lot of families get frustrated with that or even, you know, they're, they're 348 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,240 not used to them being around as much. 349 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:14,840 So it can create issues, but, but yeah, they'll never fully understand. 350 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,600 But they can have, they can have more compassion for you during that time. 351 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,840 That's great to communicate. 352 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,960 Yeah, that's what you're looking for is just a little more compassion from those folks 353 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:33,200 who want to be helpful, but they just sometimes don't know how and don't really realize how 354 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:39,280 long it's going to take because you've got a lot of stuff to sort out finding your new 355 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,840 identity, finding your new purpose. 356 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,640 So as we wrap up, we're talking to Jenna Carleton. 357 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,960 She is the millennial veteran on Facebook and Instagram. 358 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,080 Jenna talk, give us, give our veteran radio listeners some idea of how they can follow 359 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,160 along on what you're doing. 360 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,160 Yes. 361 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,480 So I'm most active over on Instagram. 362 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:08,120 And I also, we also have a weekly podcast that comes out Sundays at nine is when we're 363 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:09,120 live on Instagram. 364 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:15,000 And then I usually have it posted Monday morning on the podcast. 365 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:21,200 I also have a workbook that I self published for veterans to kind of work through a lot 366 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:27,000 of the things we just talked about finding community that purpose after service, you 367 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:33,000 know, diving into your new identity and really setting yourself up for the next chapter the 368 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,920 best way you can. 369 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,080 And you could find a link to that also on my Instagram. 370 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,920 Well, I'm also on LinkedIn, but I'm not as consistent over there. 371 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,640 And you have a Facebook, the millennial veteran has a Facebook site as well. 372 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:48,880 It seems fairly active. 373 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,600 Yep, we have a Facebook group and we have a lot of chats in there. 374 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:58,560 People are always online, which is good because, you know, I encourage people to reach out 375 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,880 if you're feeling isolated or lonely, someone's always going to be active on there and be 376 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,360 able to talk to you. 377 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:09,600 Well, we appreciate everything that you're doing for veterans. 378 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:15,400 Probably a nice Wisconsin girl went to the Navy, found a husband in Greece and now has 379 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,560 two chatty daughters. 380 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:17,560 That's great. 381 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:25,000 And we're glad for all that you're doing out there and spending a little time with veterans 382 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,200 radio today. 383 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,240 Thank you so much for having me on, Jim. 384 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,080 It's been such a pleasure. 385 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:39,160 So there's a view from our younger veterans from the Navy in this particular case, touching 386 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:44,000 on a lot of issues from recruiting to transition to VA healthcare for women and mental health 387 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,000 availability. 388 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,040 So good to hear that perspective. 389 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,440 Let's have a few words from our sponsors. 390 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,280 If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal Help for 391 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,520 Veterans at 1-800-693-4800. 392 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,560 They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims. 393 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,560 Their number again, 1-800-693-4800. 394 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,400 Military veterans touch everyone's life. 395 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,000 I'm guessing right now you're thinking of a veteran, a close friend, relative. 396 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,080 Maybe it's you. 397 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,200 Even the toughest on us sometimes need help, but don't know where to turn for support. 398 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,880 You don't need special training to help a veteran in your life. 399 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,720 Even small actions can make a world of difference. 400 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:30,560 If you know a veteran in crisis, please call the Veterans Crisis Line 800-273-8255. 401 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,600 800-273-8255. 402 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,480 A message from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. 403 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:43,080 We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today two retired Navy officers, Vice Admiral Kevin 404 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,840 Green and Captain Bruce Lemkin. 405 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,560 Admiral, welcome to Veterans Radio. 406 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:51,560 Thanks very much. 407 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,200 Happy to be with you. 408 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,040 And Captain, welcome to Veterans Radio. 409 00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,040 Thank you, Jim. 410 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:05,200 Good to be here and good to have my classmates, Admiral Kevin Green, on with us. 411 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,600 Yeah, let me set this up a little bit. 412 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:13,640 Both of these gentlemen graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1971, and they 413 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,880 are both fellows currently with the American College of National Security Leaders. 414 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,880 And we have them on, not because both of them have really interesting military careers, 415 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:29,160 we're going to let them describe in brief momentarily, but we really want to talk about 416 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,520 the North Atlantic Treaty Organization or NATO, which is celebrating its 75th anniversary 417 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,240 and they have some viewpoints on that. 418 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,760 So Admiral, why don't you give us the thumbnail of your military career. 419 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:41,760 Sure. 420 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:48,560 Again, graduate of the Naval Academy, I served principally in destroyers during my career 421 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,280 and rode on that aircraft carriers that see later my career both as a destroyer squadron 422 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,720 commander and as a battlegroup commander. 423 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:03,120 My final military assignment was as the deputy chief of naval operations for plans, policy 424 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:10,480 and operations, which brought me very close to NATO, which had been a central thread of 425 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,960 my career and professional relationships throughout my time in uniform. 426 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,880 Yeah, it's a fascinating career. 427 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,040 We could spend the whole time on that. 428 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:24,680 And similarly, Captain Lemkin, Bruce, why don't you tell us about your career in the 429 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,400 nuclear submarine field? 430 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,400 Sure. 431 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,240 And again, thank you for having us today. 432 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,800 I'm an Naval Academy graduate as well as you said. 433 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:43,480 I was selected by Admiral Rick over to serve in the nuclear submarine program, served in 434 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,200 six nuclear submarines, including command of the USS Ironman G. Rickover, Los Angeles 435 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:55,400 class, Bass Attack submarine and USS Michigan, then was a Trident ballistic missile submarine. 436 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:02,520 All my sure duty was in the Pentagon and a lot of time on the Navy staff as well as the 437 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:03,520 joint staff. 438 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:10,600 I retired in 1999 and was asked since I had been negotiating with North Korea to lead 439 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:19,680 our negotiations on implementing the 1994 Greed framework to dismantle North Korea's 440 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,240 nuclear weapons program. 441 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,240 That worked out great. 442 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:35,480 And I then came back into government early in the Bush administration and served through 443 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,960 some of the Obama administration for eight and a half years. 444 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,640 The last seven years as the Deputy Under Secretary of the Air Force for International Affairs, 445 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,120 I did a lot of work with NATO during that time frame. 446 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:56,160 And while I had done operational work with NATO, most of which I can't talk about when 447 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:03,080 I was a sub-reader, I was involved in a broad array of support for NATO, both policy and 448 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:10,760 ensuring that NATO had the interoperable aerospace capabilities to partner with us against common 449 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:11,760 threats. 450 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,960 And we have both of you guys on. 451 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:20,320 As I said earlier, you're fellows of the American College of National Security Leaders. 452 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,760 Admiral, why don't you tell us what that organization is? 453 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,800 Well, first of all, it's a non-partisan organization. 454 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,680 We don't take a partisan political stance on any of the issues we cover, but we take 455 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:39,840 advantage of the hundreds and hundreds of years of professional experience on the part 456 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:48,840 of our members who are retired generals, admirals, senior defense and State Department officials, 457 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:54,440 including quite a number of ambassadors, who are focused on national security and other 458 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,360 critical issues facing the United States. 459 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,200 We attend and take part in conferences. 460 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,800 We do a lot of writing. 461 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,440 We speak as well. 462 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:11,840 And our focus is entirely on the security and future of the United States in what appears 463 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,240 to be an increasingly dangerous world. 464 00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:22,160 Yeah, I think everybody would agree that just on the nightly news, you see how things are 465 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:30,400 getting more dangerous all around the world, whether it's China or Korea or Russia or Ukraine. 466 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:36,400 And that sort of gets us to the central reason we're talking, and that we're approaching 467 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,840 the 75th anniversary of NATO. 468 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,360 And both of these gentlemen are big thinkers. 469 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,440 We're not going to ask them where they graduated at the Naval Academy. 470 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:54,040 You know, I'm sure they were one and two or two and three, but in any event, they're 471 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,040 big thinkers. 472 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,880 They've got all this great experience. 473 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:05,800 Bruce, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about the history of NATO and 474 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,360 what you see as the value of NATO? 475 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,640 Yes, thank you. 476 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:19,120 So NATO was founded 75 years ago, the wake of the end of World War II. 477 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:33,240 And you know, that was such a huge conflict that required a lot of blood, sweat, tears, 478 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:36,360 national treasure, however you want to put it. 479 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:44,160 And there was a feeling that we needed to ensure this wouldn't happen again. 480 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:51,080 Similar to what we said after World War I, the Great War, the war to end all wars and 481 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,880 then low and behold, 20 years later, we were in World War II. 482 00:35:54,880 --> 00:36:03,320 And the rise of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, the Warsaw Bloc, really provided an 483 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:14,120 incentive for European nations to unite for the common defense. 484 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:21,200 Of course, US leadership was essential and this also was in parallel with the Marshall 485 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:31,160 Plan where the US did so much to ensure the revival of the economic health of Europe, 486 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,040 particularly Western Europe. 487 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,000 The military aspect was very important in NATO. 488 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:52,480 General Eisenhower was the first Supreme Allied commander of Europe and NATO has continued 489 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,480 to grow. 490 00:36:53,480 --> 00:37:02,800 It's continued to demonstrate its relevance and value and evolve and transform as the 491 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,280 situation in the world has changed. 492 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:12,280 There was the demise of the Soviet Union and then, of course, some time after that, the 493 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:24,360 rise of another adversarial Russia and also the rise of transnational terrorism and threats 494 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,240 throughout the Middle East and actually, of course, globally. 495 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:38,040 And we are all globally interdependent, whether it's security-wise, defense, economics, etc. 496 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:46,040 So NATO has continued to be relevant, as I said, and its relevance today, I would say, 497 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,480 is probably greater than it ever has been. 498 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:57,520 And now we've got 32 members with the accession of Finland and Sweden into the alliance. 499 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:03,880 And if we can just go back to 9-11, the attack on the, the terrorist attack on the United 500 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:11,760 States in 2001 was the first time that Article 5 of the NATO Charter was implemented. 501 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,240 An attack on one is an attack on all. 502 00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:20,480 Again, I think of nothing more illustrative of how effective this alliance is. 503 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:27,200 Well, let me jump in there because I think that's what people's knowledge of history 504 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:34,040 is short and their even memory of the current events is pretty limited. 505 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:42,840 Admiral, when we look at NATO today and the terrorist threats, talk to us a little bit, 506 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:51,760 Kevin, about how valuable it is to have NATO from the viewpoint of the American College 507 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,680 of National Security Leaders. 508 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,680 Sure, Jim. 509 00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:00,720 Let's just begin with a recognition of a central fact. 510 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:08,800 The primary mission of NATO is collective defense and deterrence against potential aggression 511 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:15,080 against any of its members, wherever those threats occur and exist. 512 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,280 When we look at the situation, you mentioned Ukraine. 513 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:28,920 And if you live in Eastern or Central Europe and you're a neighbor to Ukraine, well, pick 514 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,840 a country, pick Poland, for example, you find yourself in the role as a first responder 515 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:43,000 in the event that Russia moves further beyond the borders of Ukraine. 516 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:51,760 Russia, if it should threaten the Baltic states, Poland itself or any other countries within 517 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,680 the NATO alliance, Poland is truly a first responder. 518 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,920 And how do we back up Poland? 519 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:01,800 We back it up with the rest of NATO. 520 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:09,920 We back it up logistically with troops, with weapons, with the whole panoply of capabilities 521 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,160 that the NATO nations provide and carry out. 522 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,600 We in the United States are far away. 523 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:21,760 It takes some time for us to send materials and troops and so forth, if they're not already 524 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:31,120 in Europe, to be able to respond in the event that an invasion or a movement further western 525 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,720 in the western direction takes place. 526 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:37,440 But even more crucially is the issue of deterrence. 527 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:42,520 It's a message to those who would threaten the NATO nations. 528 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:50,880 And that message is NATO is strong, NATO is unified, NATO is ready, NATO is capable, and 529 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,840 no attack on the alliance is going to succeed. 530 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,160 That's really what this is all about. 531 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,240 So let me bring up a couple of contra issues. 532 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:06,520 I suppose you only get a little snippet of this on the general news, but at times it 533 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:12,760 seems the American leaders complain that everybody in NATO is not carrying their weight in terms 534 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:19,640 of contribution, whether it be financial or military resources. 535 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:24,800 How do you respond to that kind of comment, Captain Limpkin? 536 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:35,160 Yeah, you know, it depends on how you hold the lights and mirrors on that and how you 537 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:36,160 interpret that. 538 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:44,440 You know, in 2014 NATO established what was really is an aspirational policy that each 539 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:51,680 country strives to commit 2% of its gross defense domestic product for its military. 540 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:56,840 Not a price of admission, but again, it's a target. 541 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:03,760 And this year, 18 of the 31 NATO members are expected to meet that objective. 542 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:09,480 That's a record, but you know, that's just the money aspect. 543 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:21,360 Go back to in the wake of 9-11 and Operation Enduring Freedom and the NSF and the international 544 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:31,600 security force that was mustered to deal with the terrorist threats that emanated from Afghanistan. 545 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:38,040 Really every member of NATO at the time participated and suffered losses. 546 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:45,920 So this wasn't, yes, US paid the greatest price, certainly in terms of our loss of the 547 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,800 human losses. 548 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:55,800 That said, this was a collective effort, and Justice Adler Green mentioned, about collective 549 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:03,400 security and ultimately that spells deterrence. 550 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:10,760 The mission is to ensure we are ready, we are ready collectively as an alliance and that 551 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:25,200 will provide a deterrence against any adversary that would attack a NATO member or its interests 552 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:26,200 in the world. 553 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:33,840 Yeah, and we tend to focus just on things going on in Europe, but there are threats 554 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:40,120 all over the world and being able to work cooperatively with other countries seems extremely 555 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,720 important, doesn't it, Adler Green? 556 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:54,400 Absolutely, and when we talk about providing security for member nations of NATO, as an 557 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,920 alliance, the nation's interests go beyond the military, of course. 558 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:07,200 It goes to the ability to travel and trade and communicate across the globe. 559 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:14,800 And if there are threats that exist somewhere other than the European landmass or the adjoining 560 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,760 waters, then absolutely. 561 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:24,600 I mean, we had thousands and thousands of NATO troops in Afghanistan. 562 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:36,320 We had their capabilities across the span of the military systems, programs, and capabilities 563 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,040 that they possessed. 564 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:45,760 Not anything new about that, really. 565 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:52,880 My initial exposure to NATO was in the summer of 1970 on a West German torpedo boat up in 566 00:44:52,880 --> 00:45:02,040 the North Sea and doing NATO's job in a 135-foot boat against these Germans and the Soviets 567 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,120 and the Poles. 568 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:11,040 And when I would talk with the officers about where are we doing this, the point all those 569 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:18,360 years ago was about demonstrating the readiness of NATO, not just the readiness of West Germany, 570 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,120 but the readiness of NATO to respond to anything that could be perceived as a threat against 571 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,360 the alliance. 572 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,040 That point never left my mind. 573 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:35,800 Well, Adler, that requires training and the ability to communicate and cross-country planning. 574 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:42,600 I mean, it's really a big issue to get that degree of cooperation, isn't it? 575 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:43,600 Absolutely is. 576 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:51,760 And that's why we, within the NATO community, we have officer exchange programs. 577 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:56,760 The ships that I served on had NATO officers from Italy, from Germany, from other countries 578 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,120 as well. 579 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:08,640 And we fully man our positions on the NATO staffs, and it is a very smoothly-running 580 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:16,080 organization in terms of planning, in terms of political considerations, in terms of readiness, 581 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,520 and the technical side as well. 582 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:27,360 Captain, it seems to me that you kind of have to look at NATO on the other side of the coin. 583 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,920 Some people say United States ought to be in isolationist. 584 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:34,720 Just worry about your own stuff and not everybody else's involvement. 585 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:39,920 But by being in NATO, it's a force multiplier, isn't it, Bruce? 586 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,840 Well, absolutely. 587 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:50,000 And I'm glad you brought this up, because there's, you know, our collective memory sometimes 588 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,880 is somewhat fuzzy. 589 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:58,800 You know, our fathers, certainly my father, fought in World War II in Europe. 590 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:03,800 Our grandfathers, both my grandfathers, fought in Europe on World War I. 591 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:08,760 And then you look at, so are we going to learn those lessons? 592 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:15,480 NATO deters the next war in Europe, which might not start in Europe. 593 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:24,160 And if deterrence fails, we will not be fighting alone. 594 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:30,440 This also gets to another issue that I've heard people say, or address, or question. 595 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:36,560 You know, I've had people say to me, well, why do we have troops in Germany to defend 596 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:37,560 Germany? 597 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,960 Why can't they defend themselves? 598 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:45,880 Well, as part of the alliance, of course, we're working on our interoperability and our collective 599 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,920 security, but there's another aspect. 600 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,320 We're over there, so the war does not come over here. 601 00:47:52,320 --> 00:48:01,160 We will deter the conflict in Europe, just as we do in South Korea and Japan and other 602 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,200 areas of the world. 603 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:10,760 So this is, we can't stand alone and survive in what is truly a global world. 604 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,960 And that's a lesson that we have to keep reminding ourselves of. 605 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,120 No, I think you're right. 606 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,160 And you touched on something I'm going to ask the admiral to comment on. 607 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:27,680 And that is this idea that a war may start in Europe or may not start in Europe, while 608 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:36,600 something's going on over in the Pacific with China and Taiwan or North Korea. 609 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:42,840 You need to be able to have defense and deterrence really all around the world if you're in the 610 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:43,840 United States. 611 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,760 How does this come into play as you think about it as related to NATO? 612 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:55,840 Well, I will just repeat something that a former chief-enabled operations used to talk 613 00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:03,680 about, and that's when asked about the size of the US fleet, he said, well, the fleet 614 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:08,040 of the United States and our allies is about a thousand ships altogether. 615 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:17,920 The whole notion of fighting alone or deterring alone, probably more importantly, is bankrupt 616 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,280 today. 617 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,520 We need to work closely with our allies. 618 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:30,800 We need to make sure that they're ready, that we are fully interoperable across every capability 619 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:36,560 that we have with regard to intelligence, with regard to equipping, with regard to weapons 620 00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,640 systems, with regard to communications. 621 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,440 We need to practice together, and that's true everywhere in the world. 622 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:50,200 There is no better model, however, with regard to peacetime military alliances than NATO. 623 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:56,480 And after all, NATO has been successful for 75 years, enjoying just that. 624 00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:02,840 In deterring major combat in Europe that would spread elsewhere, we have been somewhat less 625 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:10,320 successful in other parts of the world for lack of other kinds of alliances that can 626 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,720 be so helpful to us. 627 00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:17,760 Over time, those alliances and the connections that are made and the bonds that are made, 628 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,880 not only between the military members, but also the civilian governments, just get stronger 629 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,120 and stronger, doesn't it, Bruce? 630 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,600 Oh, absolutely. 631 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:37,600 And the ability to communicate, the ability to be interoperable, and interoperability 632 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:45,800 is a concept that many people don't understand, and that's understandable because it's not 633 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,000 something they have to live with. 634 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:55,440 It's not about being able to talk to one another if you're flying different aircraft 635 00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:04,120 or in ships that were manufactured in different places. 636 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:11,120 It's about understanding each other, about training together, operating together, so 637 00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,120 if you need to, you can fight together as one. 638 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:22,800 And that's what NATO does better than any other arrangement, security arrangement, alliance 639 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:23,800 or otherwise. 640 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,560 Admiral, why don't we wrap up here? 641 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:34,600 You're wearing your hat as a fellow of the American College of Natural Security leaders. 642 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:39,560 I think Captain Lentkin just gave us a good closing remark from his end, but I'm going 643 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,120 to give you an opportunity to do the same. 644 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:49,760 Well, I thank you, Jim, and all I would say is simply to reiterate that we need to be 645 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:58,480 very thoughtful about the friends that we make, the friends that we value, all of whom 646 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:03,200 have something to contribute to our security. 647 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,640 Most people can figure out how to fight a fire. 648 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:13,080 Most people can figure out how to deter a burglar, let's say, but there's nothing like 649 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:14,080 a professional. 650 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:22,600 And the professionals of our NATO partners at the scene of where a conflict could erupt 651 00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:27,520 someday is a warming and reassuring thought. 652 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:33,720 We need to be sure that we are the kind of partners that contribute to our joint security, 653 00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:36,000 to our combined security. 654 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,280 And understand that it is a very dangerous world. 655 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,960 It seems to be becoming more dangerous as time goes on. 656 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:49,880 We need to think twice before we decide to look away from those kinds of arrangements 657 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:55,200 and capabilities that are going to protect us and the lives and futures of our children 658 00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:56,200 and grandchildren. 659 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,200 NATO is part of that. 660 00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:03,960 Well, we really appreciate the time that Vice Admiral Kevin Green and retired and Captain 661 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:09,320 Bruce Lumpkin retired from the Navy have given us as fellows of the American College 662 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:14,960 of National Security Leaders to talk about NATO and its 75th anniversary here. 663 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,520 Gentlemen, thank you for participating with Fetrin's radio today. 664 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:19,520 Thanks, Jim. 665 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,040 It's been a pleasure. 666 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:23,040 Thank you, Jim. 667 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:28,960 Thank you for the great work that you do, and we appreciate this opportunity. 668 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:37,320 Well, there's the viewpoint of a couple of old salty dogs from the Navy on NATO, I think, 669 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,320 instructive. 670 00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,480 Sorry about the sound quality there. 671 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:46,680 Both of these gentlemen, having worked in the military for so long, have bad hearing 672 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,520 and have hearing aids, I think, but probably supplied by the VA. 673 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:56,480 And we couldn't figure out how to get the squeal out of that soundtrack, as well as allowing 674 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:57,480 them to hear. 675 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:01,160 They had a head of time, but if they took their hearing aids out, they couldn't hear 676 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:02,160 the questions. 677 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:08,040 So I guess that's about as true veteran-orientated as you can get. 678 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:13,400 So we can't bring you these stories, these interesting insights from men and women who've 679 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,200 had military careers without the help of our sponsors. 680 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:23,200 And we want to thank our veteran service organizations, Vietnam Veterans of America, 681 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:29,840 Charles S. Kettles, Chapter 310 in Ann Arbor, the VFW Graffo-Harrows Post, 423 in the American 682 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,480 Legion Post 46. 683 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:38,520 If you're out there and you think, hey, my local post could help out a little bit, sponsor 684 00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:45,000 a little bit, we would certainly appreciate you contacting us, go to veteransradio.org, 685 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:51,280 or send an email to dale at veteransradio.org to say, hey, you guys do really good work, 686 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:57,120 and I'd like to help out a little bit by making a regular contribution, a sponsorship, or 687 00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,760 maybe it's a one-off, maybe you have a foundation or a fund that could help us. 688 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:07,600 So this is a non-profit, nobody's getting big dollars out of this, but we do bring it 689 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,080 forward as a passion project every week. 690 00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:18,320 And every week we also post a fresh new podcast, which you can find on our website. 691 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:23,440 It's done on Tuesdays, the Sunday programs generally get posted on Monday. 692 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,240 And so there's always something interesting to listen to. 693 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:33,880 We try to bring it to you without a whole lot of politics and puffery, but instead the 694 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:40,320 stories of veterans, the viewpoints of veterans, and let that material stand on its own. 695 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,400 And I think it really does. 696 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:48,720 So often I go back into the legacy archives here and listen to something we did months 697 00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:53,960 or years ago because it's relevant again today, something else is in the news. 698 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,760 And we want to thank our national sponsor, National Veteran Business Development Council 699 00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:04,560 and VBDC.org that's been so faithful to us over all these years. 700 00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,600 I'm Jim Fosso, and as I said, I was the officer of the deck today and proud to bring you this 701 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,000 program and also a Veterans Disability Lawyer. 702 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:18,960 Dale Throneberry will be back next week with some interesting stories to tell. 703 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:24,080 But if you've got some, if you say, hey, I haven't heard this on the airwaves yet, reach 704 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:30,480 out to us, send that email to dale at veteransradio.org, give us the name of somebody you want 705 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,960 interviewed or the organization that needs to be highlighted for the good work that it's 706 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:40,000 doing in the Veterans space, or maybe it's a problem that you have that needs to be 707 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:45,680 solved and we can tackle it on our monthly Veterans Benefit program where we talk about 708 00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,280 health care and VA disability benefits. 709 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:54,240 So this is your program, this is your Veterans Radio, and we really appreciate your involvement. 710 00:56:54,240 --> 00:57:06,480 And until next time on Veterans Radio, you are dismissed.