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All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.

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And welcome to Veterans Radio.

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I am Jim Fossone with veteransradio.net.

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We are recording today from the Legal Help for Veterans Studio in Northville, Michigan.

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Legal Help for Veterans is a Veterans Disability Law Firm.

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You can reach us at 800-693-4800.

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We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today, Jockel Willink.

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Jockel, welcome to Veterans Radio.

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Thanks for having me, Jim.

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Well, we're glad to have you on to talk about a new project that you have going.

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And many of our listeners on Veterans Radio may know you from either the books that you've

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written such as Extreme Ownership, How US Navy Seals Lead and Win back in 2015 or your

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current podcast or YouTube channel.

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But why don't you give those who may not know who you are a little background of your

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military experience?

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Yeah, I enlisted into the Navy right out of high school and went through basic seal training

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right away.

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I ended up spending my career in the SEAL teams.

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I moved up from the enlisted side after about eight years and got commissioned as an officer.

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So I spent my last 12 years as a SEAL officer.

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I retired from the SEAL teams and then I started working with companies teaching them leadership.

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And that led to me writing a bunch of books, having a podcast and sitting on interviews

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like this one.

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Well, that compresses a 20 year career into about two minutes.

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You had the opportunity to serve really all over the world, didn't you?

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Yeah, and I mean, I did a bunch of deployments as a SEAL, but I did two deployments to Iraq.

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The first one was in 03, 04, where I was primarily in and around Baghdad as a SEAL platoon commander.

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And then I came back from that deployment.

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My next deployment was in 2006, where I deployed as a task unit commander in charge of two

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SEAL platoons.

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I was in charge of task unit bruiser.

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And then for that deployment, we were in the Battle of Ramadi in the summer of 2006.

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Definitely ran across some very tough fighting in a very violent neighborhood, very violent

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city at the time and had the opportunity and the honor to work alongside some incredible

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soldier, sailors, airmen and Marines from the 11AD, the first brigade, first armored

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division in the Battle of Ramadi.

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Somebody can often look at somebody like you who's now got 30 years of experience behind

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them and say, man, this dude is so successful.

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I can't be anything like him.

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But let's go back to about 1990 when you're getting out of high school.

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What pushed you to the Navy and did you ever foresee this kind of career?

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Well, I wanted to be some kind of a commando my whole life.

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Ever since I can remember wanting to do anything, ever since I realized that there was that

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human beings had careers, I wanted to be a commando.

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I wanted to carry a machine gun.

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So I graduated high school in 1989 and I joined the Navy on the delayed entry program.

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Didn't get in until 1990.

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And then, like I said, my whole focus was just to try and get in the SEAL teams and try

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to be a good SEAL.

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That's what I wanted to do.

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I did my time and no, I never expected to be doing this as a career.

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I never expected to get retired from the Navy and have a whole another career takeoff.

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But also the Navy and the SEAL teams taught me that when there's opportunities, then you

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take advantage of the opportunities.

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When you see an area you can move into, then you execute.

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And that's just what I've done is when I see areas that I can help out, then I go and

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execute.

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Not a lot of guys move from the enlisted ranks over to the officer ranks.

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Tell us a little bit about what was going on in your mind during that period and what

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challenges that brought forth.

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Well in my second SEAL platoon, and I write about it in my new book, Leadership, Strategy

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and Tactics, we had a mutiny in my SEAL platoon.

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We had a bad officer.

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We didn't like our officer.

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And we actually had a mutiny where we went before the commanding officer and told him

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we didn't trust our platoon commander and we wanted to get rid of him.

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And I go through the details in the books.

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Eventually he was removed.

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But the guy that came and took his place was a kind of legendary SEAL that had an incredible

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amount of experience.

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And he was a prior enlisted guy.

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He was a Mustang.

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And he made life for the 16 guys in our SEAL platoon.

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He made life awesome.

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And about halfway through that deployment, I said to myself, if I ever get the chance

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where I can make life awesome for 16 guys in a SEAL platoon, I'm going to try and do

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it.

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And that's how I ended up going down the path of becoming an officer.

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I was very lucky.

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There was a program called the Seaman to Admiral program, which was started by Admiral Borda.

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And he was the chief of naval operations.

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And he started this program where they took enlisted guys and just made them into officers.

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So I went from being an E5 at SEAL team one, went to 13 weeks of OCS.

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And then I was an 01 at SEAL team two.

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And I didn't go to college till a few years later.

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So it was a great program.

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I was very lucky to get picked up for it.

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They only picked up 50 guys, 50 sailors from the entire Navy.

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So I was very lucky that I got picked up for it.

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And once I got commissioned, I was on that officer path and had a great time as an officer

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as well, doing a system platoon commander, a platoon commander, a tasking commander,

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and then running the training for the West Coast SEAL teams for my last few years.

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And you retired as a lieutenant commander out of the Navy, as you mentioned, I think,

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in October of 2020, and moved into the business world.

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A lot of guys have a tough time with the transition.

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They don't know what to go do.

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Usually there's two or three different stops and starts before figuring out.

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Tell us a little bit about how you put yourself into a position that the business track was

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right for you, which ultimately led to this career as an author.

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You know, it was one of those moments, again, where I was, you know, keeping my eyes open,

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staying humble and listening to what people were saying and looking for opportunities

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to exploit.

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So I, and exploit is a strong word we use in the military.

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It's probably not the right word to use in the civilian sector, but I know this is a

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military podcast.

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So people know what I mean when I say exploit.

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You know, when you gather intelligence from the enemy, you exploit that intelligence.

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You take advantage of it.

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So same thing here.

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I was about to retire and I had a, I knew a guy that was the CEO of, of a big company

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and he asked me to come and talk to his executives about leadership.

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I went and did that.

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And when I got done, he came up and asked me to do it for every division in this company.

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So I started going around the country talking to all of these various divisions.

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And at one of those divisional meetings, there was the CEO of the parent company.

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And when I got done speaking about leadership, he came up and said, I want you to come and

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talk to all the CEOs of all the companies I own, and he owned about 45 or 50 companies

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at the time.

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I went and talked to all those CEOs, a bunch of them asked me to talk to their companies.

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And that was kind of the beginning of what I'm doing now.

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Eventually needed a lot, needed help.

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And I talked to my guy that I worked with, my teammate, Leif Babin, who was one of the

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platoon commanders that worked for me in the battle of Ramadi.

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I asked me if he wanted to come and come and help out.

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And he certainly did.

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So that's what we started doing.

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And as we, as we worked with all these different companies, they would ask us if we had these

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principles written down anywhere.

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If we had a handout form, something we could give them.

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So we eventually said, we've got to write these tenets down for everyone to be able

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to look at.

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That turned into the book.

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The book got picked up and published and ended up doing pretty well.

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And that's kind of how, you know, kind of how we ended up here.

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You know, often you have a battle plan.

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And as they say, the first punch in the nose, the plan goes out the door and you start over,

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start reacting.

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And that sounds like a little bit of what here is.

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You may have started thinking, well, I can talk to a few guys, but those opportunities

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created themselves and you kept rolling with it.

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Yeah.

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And I've always been, you know, aggressive when I see an opportunity.

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If I see a weakness in the enemy, I'm going to go, I'm going to go try and make something

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happen.

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I'm going to pursue.

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And that's kind of what I did.

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I'd see an opportunity and want to want to exploit that opportunity, want to take advantage

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of that opportunity.

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So that's what I, that's what I do.

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That's what I continue to do.

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So we're talking to Jaco Willink who with Leaf Babin formed Eschelon Front, a management

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consulting firm, and has been out talking about leadership for a decade now and has

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written a couple of very successful books and has one out now called leadership strategy

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and tactics.

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Tell us, and this is a field manual.

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Tell us what the concept was behind this, Jaco.

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So you know, as I have my podcast, which is about leadership and I have my company where

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I talk about leadership and I get asked the same questions about leadership over and over

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again.

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And what I realized is that people might understand the principles that I'm talking about, but

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they have a hard time translating those principles into tactics that they can use on the ground.

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And so I'd end up answering the same questions over and over and explaining the tactics and

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strategies that I used to overcome leadership challenges.

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And eventually I just took all the leadership strategies and tactics that I knew that I

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actually use, that I've used in the past that I continue to use now and that I teach

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other people to use.

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I put them all into one book so people could open up the book.

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They could find the leadership problem that they're encountering and they could find the

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solution to that problem.

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And that's what this book is.

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And as you say, you can open up and find the problem that you have.

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This is not a read it necessarily from page one to the end.

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It's really finding what your issue is and going to that part of the field manual and

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getting some direction, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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And I mean, it's definitely, I would say, good to read it from cover to cover so that

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you have all the concepts in your mind.

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But like a field manual, you know, a field manual in the military, it teaches you what

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to do in a simple, straightforward, step-by-step manner.

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So if you want to know how to shoot a gun, you can look up the field manual.

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If you want to know how to clean a gun, you can look at the field manual.

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If you want to know how to use a compass, you can look in the field manual.

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But there's no field manual for how to lead.

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And so that's what I put this together for so people can actually look it up, find the

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problem, find the solution.

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And let's clear this up.

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Leadership isn't just about the CEO, is it?

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No, absolutely not.

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In fact, leadership on a team should be present at every single level.

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Right down to that front-line trooper, the front-line field, the front-line manufacturer,

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the front-line salesperson, they all have to understand leadership.

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And they all are actually leaders.

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Because even if you're the junior man in a SEAL platoon, you're still trying to influence

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your peers.

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You're still trying to influence up-the-chain of command.

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You're trying to communicate to them to tell them what you're seeing from your perspective

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and how you think things should be done.

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So leadership is present.

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As long as you're interacting with other human beings, you need to know how to lead.

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And once again, that's what this book shows you.

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I want to get your comments on a few things that you write about.

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And one of them is the imposter syndrome.

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Talk a little bit about that and why you felt it was necessary to write on it.

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Well, the imposter syndrome is something that a lot of people come up against.

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And it's basically, hey, I'm moving into a leadership position and I don't quite feel

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like I'm ready to be in it.

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And a lot of people have a hard time with it.

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They think it's very detrimental.

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I actually don't think that the imposter syndrome is a horrible thing because I had it, my whole

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career, taking over a SEAL platoon, taking over a SEAL task unit.

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You feel like you're not quite ready to do the job.

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And so what do you do?

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What did I do?

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I trained harder.

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I prepared more.

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I studied more.

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I scrutinized my own plans to make sure they were good.

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So, I worked harder.

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And when I worked harder, guess what?

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I got a better result.

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So I don't think it's okay to have, I don't think it's a bad thing to have a little bit

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of imposter syndrome.

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I think it'll keep you mentally engaged and in the game.

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What I'm more scared of is someone that thinks that they know everything and they deserve

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to be in this leadership position.

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And I think that's the person that scares me because they're not humble.

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They're not going to listen to anybody else.

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They think they know everything and that's going to be a problem.

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And you write on this issue of sort of how do you develop humility in the form of leadership

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and where is that line between confidence and arrogance?

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Give us your thoughts on that.

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There's all kinds of lines between positives and negatives and even positives and positives

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in the military and in any leadership situation.

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That's what the second book that I wrote with Leif is called the dichotomy of leadership

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and there's always going to be a balance that you have to achieve.

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So we all know that a leader has to talk to their people.

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Can a leader talk too much?

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Absolutely.

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And then if they talk too much, no one knows it's important.

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Can a leader talk too little?

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Yeah, now no one knows what's going on.

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So there's actually where do they want to be?

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They want to be balanced.

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They want to be somewhere in the middle.

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Same thing with what you just talked about.

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Being humble but having confidence.

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Sure, you have to be humble, but you don't want to be so humble that it seems like you're

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not confident in making decisions.

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The other end of spectrum, you don't want to be so overconfident that you don't think

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you need to prepare, you don't think you need to listen to anyone.

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Where do you want to be?

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You want to be balanced somewhere right in the middle.

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So yeah, you have to stay balanced as a leader in just about everything that you do.

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And this calibrating your actions goes on constantly in life and I think some people

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think, well, I'm going to achieve it and then I'm there, right?

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That isn't the way it works, is it?

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No, as a leader, you always have to have the feedback loop open.

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You've got to see what other people are thinking.

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You've got to watch what their actions are.

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And then yes, you have to modulate your own leadership techniques, your own leadership

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strategies to make sure that they're hitting your team in the right manner and producing

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the right effect that you're looking for.

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You had this experience in the SEAL team where you had a really bad leader and you went and

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said, hey, this guy's a horrible officer.

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Then you had somebody great come in who inspired you to maybe, hey, maybe I can move on and

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be an officer and a leader in that regard.

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In those experiences, can you talk a little bit about how it taught you to treat everyone

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no matter where they are in the chain of command equally with respect?

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Yeah, the guy that we had as a platoon commander that we had a mutiny against, he was a pretty

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arrogant guy and he treated everyone.

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I wouldn't say he was openly disrespectful, but clearly when you had an idea, he didn't

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really want to hear it.

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Clearly when there was work to be done that was menial labor, he wasn't going to have

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anything to do with it.

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So even though he wasn't openly hostile towards those of us junior enlisted people in the

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platoon, he certainly didn't cultivate any high level of respect from the way that he

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treated us.

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Now when he got fired and the new guy took over, who wasn't a new guy, he was actually

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more experienced than any of us, but boy did he treat us with just humility and respect

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and what that did was made us respect him so much.

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We did not want to let him down.

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We would do anything for that guy and that's the way a seal platoon or any team is supposed

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to be.

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I mean, you could imagine when I had the bad platoon commander, I was in a seal platoon

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and not one single person in our seal platoon wanted to follow our leader.

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That's a travesty and all it took was a shift to a guy that was humble and all of a sudden

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the same group of guys, we loved him, we admired him and we did everything we could to make

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him look good, to make our team win and that was the difference between a platoon that's

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performing marginally and a platoon that's really performing at peak performance.

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Your experiences also taught you that there are certain ways to and maybe it's best methods

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to administer.

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Praise is easy to give.

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Criticism is much harder.

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What experiences do you write about in leadership strategy and tactics, the field manual that

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you want to pass along?

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Yeah, there's certainly giving criticism is an important part of being a leader because

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if you're not telling people what mistakes they're making, then how are they supposed

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to improve those mistakes?

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So it's something critical that you absolutely have to do as a leader.

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But if you do it in a negative manner, the person A, they will be angry, they'll put

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up defenses and they won't want to listen to you.

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So you just deciding, okay, well, I got to tell Jim that he needs to engage, he needs

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to give more detailed plans now.

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So if I say, hey Jim, you know what, your plan was horrible, you need to give more details,

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you don't know what you're doing.

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You're going to get defensive, you're not going to want to hear that.

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And it's going to negatively impact the relationship between the two of us.

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So how do I give criticism to you in a positive way that you'll take the criticism and it'll

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actually adapt it into your game?

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One of the techniques I talk about in the book is actually taking ownership of the problems.

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So if I say to you, hey Jim, you know, I was looking at your plan and I don't think I gave

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you a good idea of how detailed some of these plans should be.

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Can we go through some of that and talk about some of the details so we can see where maybe

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it'd be a good idea to have more?

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And all of a sudden I took ownership.

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I was saying it was my fault that I didn't tell you how much detail I wanted.

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So now you're more open to have a conversation, more open to change because I took ownership

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of the problem instead of attacking you with the problem.

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So that's a good technique to use, take ownership even when you're applying criticism.

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And you write in the book about the importance of communication, which is what this criticism

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and how you deliver it is really all about.

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If I'm not communicating with you what my expectations are and you fall short, how

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you're supposed to know you fell short.

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But I think this whole idea that you write on and the importance of communication is

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something everybody can listen to and learn something from.

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Talk to us a little bit about why communication is so important in your view as it relates

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to leadership.

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Well, if you think about what leadership is, leadership actually is communication.

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It is communicating up and down the chain of command to make sure everybody understands

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what the mission is, what the goal is, what the end state that you're looking for, what

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the parameters of the work that needs to get done.

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That's what leadership is.

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Leadership is communication.

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So if we're not communicating, we're not leading.

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And by the way, it's important, like I just said, not just that I tell you, if you're

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working for me, Jim, it's not just important that I tell you what to do.

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It's also important that our communication is open enough that you can turn to me and

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say, hey, Jocko, I understand what you want me to do.

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Here's the problem with your plan.

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And I'm open enough to say, okay, I didn't realize that it looked like that from your

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perspective on the front lines.

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Let's make some changes.

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What do you recommend?

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So yes, communication is important, but it certainly is not meant to be one way communication

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ever.

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It's meant to be communication up and down the chain of command and with our peers so

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that we know as much as we possibly can before we make decisions and plans to move forward.

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That communication, I think I want to highlight what you just said, which is it's not only

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up and down the chain, but it's with your coworkers, right?

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You're delivering this message to businesses and employers and employees.

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And this better communication at the coworker level would make a big difference for any

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organization.

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Yeah, no doubt about it.

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I mean, I would always tell if my subordinate leadership ever came to me with a problem

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that they needed me to solve, or I would just tell them, you guys go figure it out.

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I'm not solving.

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You guys come to me with a unified plan.

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I should never have to solve the problem of my subordinates.

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They should be able to figure out a problem, come to me and present the solution, and I

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can approve it.

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That's what we want.

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Yeah, and I think so often we've, employees get frozen into, well, I'm just going to bring

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you the problem.

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I'm afraid to bring you the solution, aren't they?

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Yeah, and I'm not sure why, because obviously I'm leading a team.

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I don't want to sit there and have to figure out all the solutions to myself.

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And by the way, since you're on the front lines, you're closer to that problem than

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I am.

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You can probably have a better opportunity to figure out what the solution should be.

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So yes, when you present your boss with a problem, bring him a solution too.

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And for the bosses, this is sort of one of those things you say, wait a minute, a Navy

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Seal is talking to me about yelling at subordinates.

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So during your 20 year Navy career, you got yelled at a lot, and you probably yelled at

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guys a lot.

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So tell us what you've learned about yelling at subordinates.

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Well actually, I think probably got yelled at some, but I hardly ever yelled at anyone,

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and it's almost never appropriate to yell at your subordinates.

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If I'm going to have to yell at my subordinates, I'm actually sitting there looking at myself.

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I must have already made about 47 other mistakes if I couldn't communicate properly to my subordinate

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where they got the message where now I felt like what I needed to do was yell at them.

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So yelling is not a good form of communication.

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It doesn't set up trust.

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It doesn't build the relationship.

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Instead, it actually breaks them both down.

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And like I said, the amount of times that I yelled, and then this is not including,

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look, if we're in a gunfight and I have to yell because there's a volume issue and people

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need to hear me, that's completely different.

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But if we're in a situation where I can be heard and I feel like I need to yell, well,

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I'm already pretty sure that I made a mistake.

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And generally, most of the time, people are yelling because they're frustrated, they lost

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their temper.

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And what does that show people?

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It shows people that you're not control of your own emotions.

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And if you as a leader can't control your own emotions, how are you supposed to make

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decisions for the team?

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So yes, yelling, not good, not good leadership.

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Similarly, let's talk about ultimatums, those are things which you don't make in the military,

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but are made way too much in the business world and you've got some views on ultimatums.

399
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Yeah, I mean, they get made, they're a leadership tool that can be used sometimes up and down

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the chain of command, but you really have to think about them before you use them.

401
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:39,840
I mean, an ultimatum is, hey, it's this, you either do what I'm telling you to do right

402
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now or that's where I'm going to fire you.

403
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I'm going to get rid of you.

404
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And if you're going to say that, then you better make, you better make very sure that

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you provided them with all the guidance that they needed, that they have the support that

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they needed because an ultimatum is just heavy handed and there's no way out of it.

407
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And another chapter in the book is called Don't Dig In, which means you don't want to

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state your claim and say, hey, look, we're going to do it my way and no other way because

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you could be wrong.

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And now you end up having to eat your own words.

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And it's better to not dig in around your ideas.

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It's better to actually have an open mind about ideas.

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And it's the same thing with ultimatums.

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Look, do you need to use them sometime?

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Let's say I've got a subordinate that hasn't been doing a good job and I'm giving them

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a last chance and I say, look, if you don't get this project done on time, then this is

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going to be the end of your employment here.

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00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,640
Sure, that could happen, but it really should only be used in a situation that's a complete

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last resort.

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And I said at the outset this isn't the sort of book you necessarily have to read from

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page one to page 300, but I hope you do.

422
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:50,240
And on page 300 you write, the leadership strategies and tactics in this book are to

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be used not so you can be successful.

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These strategies and tactics are to be used so the team can be successful.

425
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:05,120
That really sums up your message on leadership, doesn't it, Jaco?

426
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,680
Yeah, it does.

427
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:14,000
What a good leader does absolutely is put the team and the mission ahead of themselves.

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And anybody that thinks they can make little maneuvers on behalf of themselves to make

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themselves look good and they think no one's going to notice, they're actually wrong.

430
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Everyone sees it up the chain, down the chain.

431
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Everyone sees that you're looking out there for yourself, that you're not a team player

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and they're going to notice it and it's not going to end well.

433
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But it's also important to notice this.

434
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And this is the best thing about it.

435
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The best thing about this is if you put the team first and you put the mission first and

436
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you put your ego in check and you look out for the team and the mission, in the end they

437
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are going to win.

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And when they win, you will absolutely win.

439
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,760
So it's not like you're going to look out for the team, look out for the mission and

440
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,760
you're going to end up on the bottom of the barrel.

441
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That's not going to happen.

442
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You look out for the team, you look out for the mission, they're going to rise to the

443
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top and you're going to be right there with them.

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It's the best way to win.

445
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,760
So we're talking to Jaco Willink who's the author of Leadership Strategy and Tactics.

446
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It's a new book out that we highly encourage you to get.

447
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:14,720
It's with St. Martin's Press.

448
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:20,560
But before we go, Jaco, you've written a number of children's books as well.

449
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,560
I have indeed.

450
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,040
What's more fun to do, and you have a couple of kids of your own.

451
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,520
So what's more fun to do?

452
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:36,080
Write these business management strategy books or to be able to write something in the children's

453
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,080
genre?

454
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,360
I do quite honestly, they're both very fun.

455
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They're both very rewarding.

456
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:45,440
And it's rewarding to get a letter from a leader or a person or a mid-level manager or

457
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,520
a frontline trooper that has made improvements in their life based on the books that I've

458
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,480
written that that's very rewarding.

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00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:57,160
And it's very rewarding to get a letter or a note or a message from a kid that's 10

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00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,880
years old or 11 years old that just did their first pull-up or just competed in their first

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Jiu-Jitsu tournament or got an A on a math test or whatever it is that they've done to

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move their life in the right direction.

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It's rewarding to help other people.

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And again, like you said, that's my principle of leadership and I'm happy to be able to

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do it on a broad scale through writing these books, trying to help people move in the right

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direction in their lives.

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We want to thank you for taking some time to talking to Veterans Radio today, Jaco,

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and wish you nothing but success in the future.

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Thanks for having me on.

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I appreciate it.

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And thanks to everyone out there for your service.

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And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today.

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I am Jim Fawson.

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It's been a pleasure to be your host.

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I'm a Veterans Disability lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans and you can reach us at

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800-693-4800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web.

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00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:58,180
You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet radio

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shows by going to veteransradio.net.

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And until next time, you are dismissed.

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If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal Help for

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Veterans at 1-800-693-4800.

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They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims.

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Their number again, 1-800-693-4800.

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00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:23,880
Veterans Radio needs you.

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00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:29,760
If you like our shows that are informative, surprising stories and relevant information

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00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,440
on what's happening at the VA and the military, we'd like your support.

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00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:41,640
Individual support of $5 to $50 a month or corporate sponsorship of $1,000 to $10,000

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You can go to veteransradio.net, click on the Sponsorship or Support tab, pay online and

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keep Veterans Radio on the air.

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You can help support Veterans Radio by going to our website veteransradio.net in either

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sponsoring us with some buddy money.

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That's a donation, maybe $10 a month or even $100 that will keep us on the air.

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And you can also go to our website to our new Veterans Radio exchange.

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00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:16,400
We have a brand new swag store and we'd like to have our super fans help us get the word

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fund this ongoing effort.

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So remember, go to veteransradio.net and help us out.