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We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today US Army Colonel Clifford Worthy
retired. Cliff Worthy or Colonel Worthy has written a book called The Black
Night an African-American Families Journey from West Point a life of duty honor
and country. Colonel we're glad to have you on Veterans Radio this morning. Thank
you very much glad to be here. Well we're gonna talk about a unique slice of
time in military history. You went to West Point in 1949 graduated in 1953 and
continued to serve in the active duty army until 1976 so we've got a lot of
ground to cover. Yeah but I for the record I don't regret a minute of it
it was just a great great experience. I have all at Mara West Point and its
principles and and I had just a great career. I'm happy to be able to share
that with you. Well you know and before we start into that let me back up because
there's everybody's story is really about their family story and your family
moved from Georgia up to the Detroit Michigan area when Henry Ford started
paying $5 a day to people to work on the assembly lines and and that brought
your family north and that's a pretty common story for a lot of southerners
who moved up to to the Midwest and particularly Detroit and you found your
way to what now is called Wayne State University at the time was Wayne
University and we're kind of headed in a pre-med direction. I think the extended
family wanted a wanted a doctor and you were you were kind of the guy. Exactly
right. I was an only child but I had a huge extended family. I have a friend who
for instance a couple years ago I counted my cousins and and there were 51 of
them that I could recall so you can see that was a big family and and they all
wanted to have a family doctor. I was 16 years old when I graduated from high
school and they had already decided that I was going to be a family doctor not
just a music family but the extended family doctor. Certainly certainly. I went to Wayne as you say it was Wayne that time
it became Wayne State later on but clearly was my family status there was
little or no chance of I ever going to med school or maybe I would go or getting
into going and so that's how I ultimately became a got the West Point.
Well wait a minute you're skipping over a few things here Colonel and I've
had the opportunity to read the book and do some studying and this wonderful
gentleman who's 92 years old now and there are a lot of there's a lot of
wisdom that your book has that comes out of your life that I don't want people
to skip over and that is just the role that chance sometimes takes in one's
life. You had no idea what West Point was about and in the 19 it wasn't until
1948 that President Truman's executive order desigrated the
military but it was his chance opportunity in 1946 where you bumped into
somebody and West Point kind of got put on the map for you took a few years to
get there but tell us about how chance just played into a role here. Well that's
a good word chance because it was a totally it was like an opportunity it
was thrust upon me I had no military background whatsoever and so I met this
young man who had been to West Point but didn't make it through and I was at
the main old main building there at the administration building at the
time and we talked and I recognized him because he had to uniform on and so we
talked and I told him my background and after realizing that he was
realizing that my chances of going to medical school were pretty slim he says
why don't you apply for an appointment to West Point. Well before that minute
that's second I had never given West Point a thought the only thing I knew
about West Point was at that time the movies which of the movies they they
was sort of a always there cadets marching as an introduction to the
movie of the night and so that was my experience and that's how it all got
started. And it takes another sort of chance meeting but but maybe chance
isn't the right word but determination. Hello. Yes Colonel are you there? The
volume went down. Okay yeah let me work on that we'll come back and edit that out
not a problem. So Colonel not only was this chance meeting with this former
cadet but you had to get an appointment to West Point and at that time that
wasn't easy for a black man to get it was really the West Point was sort of
beyond the the dream of any black family. How did you get the appointment? Well
that's that's how it got started. Meeting this young man who had literally
flunked out of West Point and and suggested that right to my congressman
which I did not expecting ever to hear back from the congressman. Three cents
stand back in those days so I sent a sent request to him and not expecting to
hear back but three weeks later I got a response back from him saying send me your
grades and talk to a couple local politicians and what was to go from
there which shocked me and my family as well but anyway I did that
expecting not to hear back but I did and and that was the beginning of the
process now I didn't get into West Point in 1946 but that was how it got
started and I didn't actually get into it to 1949 but due to congressman
Dingles persistent persistent I have ultimately got got into West Point now
maybe I left out some DCO's you'd like to hear about. Well no I just want to
remind some people because they've probably forgot this history and we're
talking about John Dingle senior John Dingle Jr. who passed away recently it's
this is his father and another lesson I think your life shows us right there
Colonel is you sort of don't get up you don't give up you might get rejected
once but you stayed on the path to get in in 1949. That's exactly right and I
were a lot of credit to Congressman Dingle who just had decided he was gonna
get me into West Point no matter what and so as a result it actually happened
in 1949 and thank God for him for his efforts I never met him I never saw him
we talked in fact we never talked just just just a male but through a male
until we got the ball rolling and then I was able to meet the requirement
requirements I had to meet. And you get into West Point and again this is 1949
there's a lot of discrimination occurring in the country but you write
that you never felt discriminated at West Point except in the housing area
talk to us a little bit about how they handled housing. Okay well before 1948
the military was not integrated but segregated there were black units and
there was white units and even the black units were commanded by white
officers but when President Truman issued the edict in 1948 that changed
everything there but there was some resistance on the part of the military
but it happened West Point apparently got it so in 1948 after in 1949 I
entered West Point and as a result of that I for four years I never had any
instance that I can recall and I'm sure that's something maybe I've forgotten
where I have had a problem because of my race was black except for and it wasn't
a problem but that's just where it was policy was back in those days black
cadets room together no matter what their height was well they had assigned
cadets to companies based on the height for perfect parade purposes make sure
everybody looked make sure it looked nice you know but in our case the black
cadets room together and it just so happened that one of my roommates was
about four inches shorter than the other two of us and of course which created
some problems for him and I won't go into the details there but that's that's
how it all happened we we we four years there I people have asked me about that's
basically the same question about what what racial concerns what was problem
there was a there and I I to my memory I don't know of anything that one thing
that can point to as a matter of fact the reverse is true or as I'm concerned
I became the captain of the squash team and I was on the tennis team and I I
felt that I was well treated now I'm not nice so naive that I don't think that
there were more instances where the racing showed up but I just can't
recall any right now well and again it may not have been to your face it may
been behind you to the back but I did want to talk about squash and tennis as a
kid who picked up tennis myself on this on the public courts around Metro
Detroit I was fascinated early to learn that you you turned to tennis in high
school but it sort of felt it kind of followed you through life it allowed you
at West Point because you were a racquet sport guy right you could you played
tennis you had never played squash but it allowed you to fit in with a different
group of people it ultimately you were the I think I read you were the first
black captain of a sports team at West Point on the squash squad and and it you
you played you played tennis kind of all over the world in some interesting places
but isn't that one of those things where it's just you have to allow yourself to
enjoy what you're doing and let that lead you in new directions absolutely you
know just to talk a little bit about the tennis situation I just happened when
they were walked past the tennis course watching their connected team practice
and I looked at that and I said well I can do about play by as well as that so I
just walked up to the coach and introduced myself and tried out and made
the team I was squash I had never played before and I didn't know anything about
the game but I was a racquet guy and so I was on the squash team and then the next
year of the captain of the squash team so that's my history at my athletic
history at West Point well then let me put this in context we're to our veteran
radio listeners we're talking to Colonel Clifford Worthy retired US Army
officer he's talking about his time at West Point and we're going to turn to his
military career here shortly but he's playing tennis and squash at West Point
there isn't a professional black tennis player until Elphia Gibson in the mid
1950s and there's not a professional male tennis player until Arthur Ashe in
the mid 1960s so you kind of have to put into context this getting on the team in
1949 or 1950 you're really at the vanguard of those sports for African
Americans aren't you yes that's right as a matter of fact I after my squash
time at West during my squash time at West Point I was ranked probably number
23 based on a ranking system among collegiate squash players and so I had
a very successful question question career at West Point and of course you
mentioned the tennis part of it but it was we played most of the teams were
that were on the Ivy League circuit and they were all very good squash and
tennis players because they were raised playing squash and tennis and so it was
that was quite an experience and I think it made my time at West Point a lot
more unbearable and that's true today the the military academies all
encourage extracurricular activities they encourage one or two sports for all
of their cadets in part for building collegiality in part for making the
the that difficult environment more tolerable and it's interesting to see
that this one no I didn't realize that that was sort of a philosophy for
decades and decades in front of my own awareness of it
let me let me move to I want to I want to mention this and I want to move to
your career I want to mention that you also had the typical West Point
experience of marrying your beloved fiance then wife Lillian at West Point
right at the time of graduation and had the traditional cross swords coming out
of the chapel I mean this was just unfathomable to probably your family
back in Detroit just a few years earlier that you would have arrived at that
point it had to be amazing to everybody it was a major turn of events I met
Lillian the year before I entered West Point and for the four years that I was
there of course we we dated and as much as you can at being at West Point and
and a day the day after graduation we were married at the Cadet Chapel and
probably the first black couple married at the chapel with a saber bears and
all the pomp and ceremony that goes with it and it's interesting to that you
brought that up because 20 other cadets were married that same day at the same
chapel so what one would wonder how could that be done well it they were so
disciplined and organized and that that we we had about 20 minutes or so of time
to Lillian I have to have a just a typical wedding and then we would come
outside and as soon as we were had finished I'm taking pictures and done
done the usual things another couple would go into the chapel and and be
married and yes my family from from Detroit and other places came to West
Point for the ceremony and it was first time they ever actually most of them
ever been out of Georgia or or or Detroit and they and they were you know
because that was like a fish out of water but they there was quite quite a
quite a big van I never forget it well it had it had to be a very proud moment
for the family and and now I want to turn to the post West Point time because
it's it is here out in I guess I'll call it the real world that assignments
start taking you places and you particularly off base run into issues of
segregation and comments of being called boy or told to go to the back door for
food and and this is I suppose in hindsight not surprising probably at
the time it was happening it was at times both surprising and expected but
but let me put this in context for our veteran radio listeners Colonel Worthy
you had and I don't have the number right I'm gonna list off some of the
places but you had what 20 some assignments over your career and moves
that's probably true I never never kind of counted them but that's about right
but there are many I I can give you a quick summary of that if you like please
please do I think again it would it will help people understand what military
services like and and sort of how you move across the country to do it well
that's that was the problem West Point was no problem but traveling was a big
problem for black cadets and officers when you went from one place one I want
to sum it to another you had to really plan your trip and and find do some
research where you could go today we could stay when you had to stay in where
you could eat and where you had to eat and those kinds of things they weren't
you just couldn't stop at a motel because you just liked it the looks of it
you had to get some advanced world warnings so and in one case I mentioned
in a book in a little town called Clayton, New Mexico went I had to heck I went to
the gas station there and had to pass for some got some gas and asked for a
place that where I could eat and my wife and I was my wife and I were together
we we made a mistake in leaving our New York license place on our car but
anyway we he told us to go to this restaurant we thinking well if he said
that you know we could go he was looking at us you can see that we were black I
guess it's okay so we went to the place and as we got to the front of the
building you could see inside through the glass windows there and everybody was
having a good great time you know in jolly time and everybody enjoying your
food and everything I walked in and the place was dead silent I mean it wasn't
it wasn't you couldn't hear you could hear a pin drop even the thought it was
clean in the place the black fellow cleaning up the place he stopped and
froze and the person that the lady that was attending she was just absolutely
furious that I would even dare come in there order some food and she makes
negative women and racial comments about coming in the back door and all of
that so but her boss the manager I assume I guess he felt it was starting to
think so he said go ahead and give away want so she threw the food that makes
them a couple of hamburgers and as we walked out we could hear the chair
scrubbing the floor so every man in that in the restaurant got up and and we
walked out the door and they were gathering you could tell and we got no
car and I did we're now and I didn't know what to expect because in a
situation like that the sheriff if there was one he probably would be leading
leading the practice behind me there but anyway we we got in the car and it
we drove drove off and all of these about 10 or 12 pickup trucks were
following us down the road and of course we we didn't know what was gonna happen
to us but we got too close close to the Colorado border some somewhere along
that way where we turned off and then they turned around went back but that
was the kind of experiences we wanted kind of expression we had at that time
same with combinations were the same way so yes that was that was not not very
enjoyable well and again because the way the military moves folks around and
this is common today but the traveling is a different there are planes for most
folks and not that kind of discrimination at public accommodations but
you went to Colorado you went to Fort Nax in Kentucky you went to Fort Sill in
Oklahoma you went off to Germany you came back to Oklahoma you got sent off to
University of Arizona you go off to the Pentagon I mean you have a lot of moves
in this 23 year career yeah I can well went left went went to camp it was camp
Carson at that time but therefore a while then the Fort Knox and then from
Fort Knox I went to jump school where everyone school went from there to Fort
Meade, Maryland and we joined a I was signed to the Second Armored Cavalry
Regiment and we were ready to ship out to go to Germany they had a program called
Gyroscope that got started back in those days where we would move from the US to
Germany taking no equipment bringing our families right along with us and then
the counterpart in Germany would move to the US and we would leave there they
were equipment there so we that was in Germany for that then after Germany
went to back to Fort Sill for some more training and class
just before training at Fort Sill and then from sort to Fort Sill we went
to let's see to Fort Bliss Fort Bliss to to commanding General Staff College and
Fort Leavenworth Kansas I was and I was that was a major at that time and then
from there went to Vietnam for a year promoted to Lieutenant Colonel along
the way and I commanded an artillery battalion in at at in Vietnam left Vietnam
went to the Pentagon and I skipped one step there I also was sent to University
of Arizona where I got a master's degree in mechanical engineering nine years
after I graduated from West Point and then when I got to the Pentagon I was
assigned to the officer chief of research and development and then from
there I was assigned as one of the military assistants to the undersecretary
of the Army and but then to another school of course seniors and selected
both officers and civilians to the industrial college of the armed forces
and by the way while it went a while I was at Leavenworth with the commanding
General Staff College one of my classmates was a Colen Powell and we were
there at the same time and so I didn't really get to know them that well because
of the way they had a section off we he was in another group at the college at
the same time so we didn't see each other that much but we were there at the
same time and then after back to the Pentagon but then from there's the
industrial college of the armed forces where there was a school for senior
officers as well as civilians where they studied the resources and and and and
that kind of thing for other countries they broke us up into teams we visited
these countries and that was quite an experience and then back to Fort
Hill and at that time as a full colonel and what Fort Hill and because of my
wife my son we had a special needs son and there's a lot of history there and
I want to come back to that let me finish the military side first and then
we'll come back to that because I think that deserves its own discussion and
what I wanted to point out to people is this kind of moving around is is it's
hard on the military member it's hard on the family but it's not unusual and
it's a it's full of interesting new opportunities and I want to back you up
to Germany you went to when you got assigned to Germany it gave you in the
family an opportunity to travel and see Europe and and you went to Garmisch
part again an uber-ammergau which even today are highly visited well maybe not
today in the in the pandemic world but are highly visited sites by US military
I know my wife and I went to both of them when she was over at the NATO school it
gave you a chance to go to Paris but you have to be again willing to accept
those kind of random opportunities that exist and really take advantage of it
and it sounded like that was your philosophy was that the way you went
after it Colonel yes exactly you know I welcome that kind of the transitioning
of the going to an industrial college of the armed forces was a terrific
opportunity to do to do exactly there I went to Africa on it with a team there
and we were there for three weeks to study resource management within that
those countries and and yes while we were in Germany we did travel around we
we we did go to you mentioned the passion play that not every ten years
that's a very rich program that they have every ten years and we were
fortunate enough to be an uber-ammergau at that time and so we got to brush those
for the for the world's fair that was occurring during that rough time but and
and the advantages of being in Europe at that time at any time is Europe is
relatively small when you think in terms of ground to cover that as you as we
do when you measure with the United States we could go from one end of Germany
to the other one day as far as the travel time is concerned so anyway it was
it was quite an experience and Germany's a lot of a lot of stuff I could talk about
Germany but our mission was unusual and different there but we're in the middle
of the Cold War and we were we had to protect the border between our us and in
East Germany that was our mission there's another there's another aspect of
military life I want you to talk about because I suspect this was somewhat
surprising to your family and friends back in the States but but also I think
today people worry about this is well if my son or daughter goes into the
military they're not going to have any friends and your your book is really
replete with talking about individual and generally couples an army officer and
a wife at that time and the friendships that get formed among army wives and
friends that makes these multiple moves and deployments and things bearable but
that was really strong in your experience wasn't it Colonel absolutely very very
strong we we had lifetime friendships of course we lose track of no over time
but with people that we'd never met and they're for the most part white
couples as and otherwise and it was interesting because the experience for
them was just as different than as it was for us and and we learned a lot from
each other and we realized that yes there's some bad apples out there in
the military and in barriers of all kinds of racial barriers but they're also
some good people and then and we we we cherish the time we spent with some of
those folks I as far as in the military that aspect of our career
one of the things about in Vietnam I'd like to mention is assigned to my
Albert's battalion commander and assigned to my battalion was a young doctor
who just out of medical school had no no military experience with swell of foot
soldier experience and so it was interesting how my executive officer
how he brought him along and and which and brought about one of the best
experiences of my career period and what happened in Vietnam this young man
with a doctor he just had just all kinds of potential he knew nothing about
soldiering but my executive officer took took care of that well while he was
there he went out and to the civilian side of things and in Vietnam and got
associated with some people that were administering to them and and these
were just innocent citizens they were not military people and he got involved
with that with them and they found out that they were most of us were
sleeping on the floor of these tents and things like that in Vietnam and and they
were being they were coming out sick and didn't nobody knew what was causing it
turns out that they were being bitten by rats and while they're late on the
floor and as a result they were getting the poops with a plague and plague had
not been no no not all people didn't know much about the plague but anyway he
he started working with these civilians that were had no medical
assistance at all until we got involved and as a result he became not just the
United States but one of the world's experts in on the plague and and he he
he's well he was well known and respected and and just a terrific young
man and I wish I could tell you more about that well it's it's an interesting
it brings up an interesting point I've talked to a lot of folks Colonel and I
at times I don't think the American public realizes the humanitarian effort
that military men and women do on a daily basis beyond their job right he's
out helping the civilian population because of his heart not because of an
order he's out there helping people because they need it he can offer it
and and something is calling him to do it and I know you're a man of faith but I
think that's a great story to remind people of how the military is so
involved in humanitarian efforts it was a great experience and and with a sad
ending unfortunately I maintain contact with him after we got packed home and
but just about oh four or five years ago I called him and found out he had died
in a car accident and it was I was you know quite a shocking thing for me
because we had become very close and highly respected for the work that he
had done and but that was that occurred you know the people that he was treating
while he was in Vietnam they could have been the Vietnam what we call a VC of
vietcong and you but they didn't he was able to do what it helped them as much
as he could one of the reasons one of the things about that they did I think
our soldiers are the reason that I think our military is the great the troops
are the greatest troops in the world is because they they are the most resourceful
troops in the world and there it's not just a matter of having the best equipment
always it's just the ability to to when you find an answer or fix the problem
where there is no answer or problem to be fixed or could be fixed it's just a
resourcefulness of our troops and and I just just thoroughly appreciate the fact
that that that is the heart of to me the heart of our military as the fact that
they are can will solve problems where that had nothing to do with weaponry or
that sort of thing I'm not knocking on a weaponry I'm thinking we're fine but
what we don't we always think about it says we got great tanks and but we have
great troops we really do yeah yeah just enjoy the time I spent with us so let me
let me bring this around so we have a little time to talk about another
passion of yours the Colonel worthy made full bird Colonel in about 1974 and
unfortunately a little over a year later his beloved wife Lillian passed away as
a result of some of the spinal neck surgery problems which obviously is a
life-changing thing for anybody he the Colonel had three children at that point
and had to make a decision at about the age of 47 to have his career bring him
back into the Metro Detroit area where he went to the tank command to post but
he knew by going into that area it really would end his career his aspirations
of becoming a general officer and he retired in 1976 he went on the Colonel
went on to work for a division of General Motors and had a very successful
career there and subsequently remarried and had a wonderful wife Mildred but a
lot but I want to move now to one of his three children had Mark Kim and Jennifer
the girls are very accomplished in their own right and I'm not ignoring them
but we're gonna focus on mark because I think it tells us something about children
with disabilities back in that period of time in the military treatment in the
medical treatment of that so tell us a little bit about Mark's story well mark
was it was stayed in the hospital on it was the equipment I think I don't know
because there was later diagnosed as lack of oxygen to the air it was didn't
have the oxygen content he should have had which was basically the cause of his
is becoming a special needs young youngster he we at that time there were
not the kind of service that he needed available very much but rare to go to a
place anywhere and find a really help to for kids and our children like that they
were they were marginalized and and and we just had to have in addition to my
military duties we always had to think in terms of what how it would affect mark
and what we had to do about his situation and there's a lot of story to be
told about that but anyway he we we everywhere we went and we would go to
we went to Johns Hopkins and Walter Reed we went we even in Heidelberg Germany
which had a reputation for having great medical service we went there to try to
get help for him it turns out we didn't really but but just pointing out that
the issues we had to deal with in addition to our normal expected military
function my wife I think part of the reason she was it became ill is I think
part of it is concerned about him and I mean the more I could die so it it makes
the big difference in and managing your career when you've got a special needs
child particularly back in those days that I suppose it's better now but it
certainly wasn't very good at that time I think I mean I think the story and I
want to have folks go by the black knight in African-American family's journey
from West Point a life of duty honor and country by Clifford Worthy the book
really talks a lot about those experiences and the difficulties they
caused in the family because nobody ever knows if they're doing the right thing I
mean I think that's what really grinds you down you don't know if you're doing
the right thing but Mark ultimately found a good spot you were able to find a
good spot for me and I think I wrote down that he lived till he was 59 so it you
know all you wonder whether or not you did the right thing and you can look
back and say no we he had a had a good life for what was in front of him and
he lived a long life for what was in front of him that must give you some
consolation and I'm ready to it and as you point out the last few years of his
life he got good care we weren't able to keep him at home but we found a
great got involved with a great service and from Michigan there was offered by
the Komekai in Michigan and we he was there in a group home there for until
he passed and he was he was it was just a wonderful and young man who was a
benefit not just for for us for us it was he he was beneficial to the folks
that he was with for a number of years he was I can't I can't and just a few
minutes justify the impact he had on on other people's lives which a matter of
fact there was a group of middle-aged men who called themselves over the hill
bunch there was the plate softball in the in the Romeo Otton Romeo Michigan there
was a recreation center they had that going for them mark which we go there
and and watch them play and they got very much attached to mark and mark became
like a whatever the word it would be anyway they loved them into care for
and when mark died at the funeral we had the service and in the middle of the
service three gentlemen got up and stood up and and introduced themselves with
and they came without in without my knowledge but they came and who they
were once they stood up and they came and they gave a wonderful testimony about
their relationship with mark he was really loved in fact the recreation
center in Romeo Michigan has a bench that's been established permanently bench
with words on it in honor of mark and the home where he stayed they planted a
tree in the backyard of the house so you can see the impact he had on on people
period but you you have in the book a photo of mark with the over the hill
bunch posing for a team photo and he's sort of an honorary member of the team
and he's a tall guy he's a big guy he's in the back row and he's given a
military salute and it just to me that sort of brought home full circle if you
will some of those experiences that he had with you all over the world whether
you were teaching it or not but for him giving that military salute was was an
honorable act well there's nothing that mark would rather have done it with his
life than to be in the military he was so
enamored with the military that he wanted to go to the local recruiting
station sign up well he was not anywhere near mentally equipped to or even
physically equipped to to be in the military but the house where he was
staying they made some arrangement with the recruiting station to take mark
there and he was taken there and thinking that he was being considered for
enlistment in the army but of course he wasn't but they they said well the
recruits the recruiting sergeant said well when we have an opening that's what
they told him we have an opening we'll let you know so he believed that and it
was it reminds all of us to find the joy in life where it is right yeah that's
exactly don't keep don't keep putting the joy off find the joy now and I think
again when I read the book there were moments in it when you're recounting
family stories that where you just go that that joy is coming out and this is
when you should really really seize that joy now we didn't have a chance to remember
wrap this up I've kept you longer than I said I was gonna but I had a lot I wanted
to talk to you about you are a man of faith and you talk about it from right
at the time of West Point to devotional services over in Vietnam and through the
rest of life and I suspect that that also has not only made your military
career but your family challenges and everything in life is kind of tied
together with that isn't it yes absolutely so thank you that you would
even would consider myself my experience and the part of your program and I
wanted to want to say that what you're doing is is important to me I'm sure
there are a lot of veterans that need legal assistance and whatever else you
do that having been close to troops and love troops as much as I do I know how
much that would be appreciated how much needed much like the kind of services
my son needed you know when you couldn't get it otherwise you so thank you very
much I appreciate it thank you Colonel worthy we're glad you were able to spend
so much time with us here on veterans radio today and we're we are honored
to talk to men like you who serve before us and we are honored to assist
veterans with their legal disability claims all around the country so thank
you for your time today thank you and I want to thank everybody for listening
to veterans radio today I am Jim Fawcone it's been a pleasure to be your
host I'm a veterans disability lawyer at legal help for veterans and you can
reach us at 800-693-4800 or legal help for veterans dot com on the web you can
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radio shows by going to veterans radio net and until next time you are dismissed
you have a VA claim denied by the board of veterans appeals contact legal help
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