All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.
And welcome to Veterans Radio.
I am Jim Fossone with veteransradio.net.
We are recording today from the Legal Help for Veterans Studio in Northville, Michigan.
Legal Help for Veterans is a Veterans Disability Law Firm.
You can reach us at 800-693-4800.
We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today Colonel Samuel L. Russell, U.S. Army, retired.
Colonel, welcome to Veterans Radio.
Thank you, Jim.
It's good to be with you today.
Well, we have you on not only because of your military experience, which I'll let the listeners
know, you served 29 years in the U.S. Army.
You're actually a fifth generation Army officer.
The family's got a deep, deep roots in the Army.
And other military fields, you let a brother go off to the Marine Corps.
How did that happen?
But we really have you on today not to talk about your experience in the quartermaster
of a Corps or in your overseas assignments, but to talk about an issue as a historian
that's going on in Washington today.
And it's related to the Battle of Wounded Knee back in 1890.
So we're going way back.
But before we do, go ahead and give us just a touch of the family and personal military
service, Sam.
Yeah, so, you know, one of those families that, you know, the sons end up doing what
the fathers did, and that's gone on for, you know, about five generations now.
And so I have a connection to that battle in Wounded Knee, and that I've got a great,
great grandfather that was one of the key officers that was in the Army at the time
and at that battle.
And so that's really my connection there.
I'm a bit of a genealogist as well.
And my tie or my interest in Wounded Knee really stemmed from my trying to understand
my family and what they had done before me and how they had touched history.
And obviously this was a big touch point that I have come back to again and again and again
over the last two decades.
And that's really part of it here is that as a military historian, you've written on
a number of subjects, but this subject in particular, the Battle at Wounded Knee, you
keep going back to.
And you had to go back to it again this year because of a bill introduced into Congress,
H.R. 3467, called Remove the Stain, which was asking the Congress to take up the issue
of whether or not the men who were awarded medals of honor as a result of the battle
at Wounded Knee in December of 1890, whether those medals should be revoked.
Have I summed that up right?
No, that's very good.
This has also been a cause that the Lakota Nation have taken up for about at least two
decades, seeing those medals as a stain on American history and on their heritage specifically.
And they've done over the years a number of resolutions calling for those medals to be
rescinded.
So I ended up getting involved because this is the first time where it has actually been
written into language in Congress as proposed legislation introduced at the end of June.
So going back just a little over a month now when it was introduced and referred to the
House Armed Services Committee for consideration.
Well, it's pretty clear from the program prep that I've done that there's sort of a dispute
as to the facts of what really occurred at Wounded Knee, the Lakota Nation has one viewpoint.
I think the Army may have another and you writing as a historian have a viewpoint.
So why don't you go ahead and summarize for those who have heard of Wounded Knee but don't
really have a recollection of the history of what was going on at that time in December
of 1890 and this particular engagement.
Yeah, so by 1890, most of the tribes were all at that point on reservations.
And you had a a parceling of the Great Sioux Nation, the Great Sioux Reservation, which
spanned the areas of the Dakota Territory, which now is North and South Dakota.
In about 1889, there was work to a land act to try to parcel that up, reduce the lands
and they did by, you know, I think 50 million acres or something like that that ended up
being freed up in a treaty that was signed by a number of tribes in 1889 that was put
into effect in February of 1890.
And that caused quite a bit of consternation, obviously with the clothe of people.
There were some that signed, there were some that were vehemently against that.
And another one of those instances where they felt perhaps cheated out of their land.
It also was an area of two years in a row or a time of two years in a row when drought
had hit the plains and it hit the Dakotas especially hard.
And so any crops that the Lakota were able to grow really were failing for two years
in a row.
You had coincidentally at the same time, Congress taking action to try to wean the Lakota nation
off of much of the rations that they had been committed to or that the government had committed
to give them due to numerous trees that they had signed.
And so you saw a reduction in beef issues, a reduction in the expenditures for rations.
And so all of those events kind of culminated in the summer of 1890 and just really made
a desperate situation for the Lakota people.
And in one of the ways that that desperation materialized, I guess as a symptom you would
say, it was a religious movement that was called the Ghost Dance Movement where the
Lakota essentially were looking for a way to restore their lands before the arrival of
the white people that some of their warriors would come back that the plains would be repopulated
with buffalo and other game.
And the movement really took off amongst the Midwest tribes, really all of the tribes,
the Cheyenne and the Lakota really grasped onto this religion to the point that it was
disturbing to the Indian agents, they felt that their Indian, their Indian keep, their
charges were out of control.
And so they called for in the fall of 1890 military intervention.
They felt the only way they could get control of the reservations, the Indians there, to
get them to stop dancing is what they called it, was to bring the military in.
And so the campaign was put in charge of Major General Nelson Miles, who was the commanding
general of the division of the Missouri.
The president told him to prevent any outbreak and do it without any bloodshed if possible,
but to ensure that no settlers were endangered.
And so there was a very large buildup, actually the largest military buildup, if you will,
since the Civil War.
So was the ultimate involved in about a third of the field army across the infantry, the
cavalry and their artillery.
I want to say there was about 6000 plus troops that were moved to the area, in addition to
the 5000 or so that were already there.
So it was for a very small frontier army.
It was a huge massive deployment of resources to try to prevent this, this, I guess this
movement, this religious movement from turning into an Indian outbreak.
And this was what a show of force designed to kind of quiet things down.
Hey, there's such overwhelming force here.
We're just, you know, we really let go of people have to pull back.
Is that what was going on?
Sure.
It started small and it was essentially a go to the reservations and protect the agencies.
And so you had troops that began to arrive at the Pine Ridge Agency and the Rosebud Agency
and the Standing Rock Agency.
And then as more troops arrived, they began to obviously move into a more aggressive stance
of all right now let's go out and get all the Indians to get them back onto the reservations.
And just as with any force deterrent option, it sometimes has the opposite effect instead
of deterring and exacerbates.
So you could say that's that's some of what happened here, but at the middle of December,
there was an effort to go ahead and arrest Sitting Bull, both the Indian agent there
and General Miles wanted him arrested and removed from the situation.
They saw him as a spark that could set the thing off and they wanted to get him out of
that picture.
And during that arrest, it went awry.
And you ended up with Sitting Bull being killed along with a number of Indian police and some
of the members of Sitting Bull's band.
And then that caused the rest of his band on the Standing Rock Reservation to flee that
reservation and really set into motion a number of events that tragically would end up in
a large number of deaths for a band of many Kanju, Lakota and part of Sitting Bull's Hong
Kapa Indians that were killed at Wounded Knee.
Then Wounded Knee occurred roughly two weeks after the attempt to arrest and ultimately
death of Sitting Bull to put this into some context.
So what sort of the US Army 7th Calvary then went to Wounded Knee Creek and sought to what
move the Indians?
So to give you a brief I can explanation, so you had a band of Indians, many Kanju Indians
under Bigfoot, that had been actually under observation by the Army since about the previous
April, so almost nine months now, the Army element that was in charge of that area had
had Bigfoot's band under observation because he was perceived to be causing problems for
the Indian ancient there and also because his village, when they redrew these reservation
lines at the beginning of 1890, his village actually fell off the Cheyenne River Agency.
So it was in an area that potentially could be sold off to settlers and so they wanted
to make sure there wasn't a problem with settlers coming in and exacerbating the situation.
So they put about four companies of infantry in Calvary to watch his band over the course
of nine months and it ended up being his band that ultimately was wiped out at Wounded Knee.
When the sitting bull elements fled from the Standing Rock Agency, there was a large number
of them, about 30, 35 of them that ultimately linked up with Bigfoot and his band at their
village right about the time that the 8th Calvary was trying to convince Bigfoot to
come in peacefully to Fort Mead and surrender and it was the combination of those elements
meeting and the Army moving in closer to his band that then caused them to decide to flee
south towards Pine Ridge, which was about 100 miles away.
And so then you had this band that General Miles had asked to be captured and taken to
Fort Mead suddenly fled the area, the Army viewed that as them breaking out and outbreaking
potentially to raid the settlers in the area and ultimately to link up with another group
of Indians that were held up in defensive positions in what was called the stronghold.
It was a large, flat Mesa area that offered great natural fortified positions for the
Indians to fight from.
And so they're really concerned that this band of many conjuves under Bigfoot and the
elements of sitting bulls from Papa Band would link up with these Brule Indians that were
from the Rosebud element in the stronghold and they wanted to prevent that.
So they had a number of Calvary elements, Colonel Eugene Carr's 6th Calvary was out
there, Lieutenant Colonel Sumner's 8th Calvary was out there.
You had elements of the 9th Calvary under Colonel Guy Henry that were all out seeking
to find Bigfoot's band and prevent them from linking up with these elements in the stronghold.
It turns out they weren't going there at all.
They were trying to get to the Pine Ridge agency.
And when it became apparent they probably weren't going there, they sent the 7th Calvary
out a little bit further to the west from where the stronghold was to try to find this
band and prevent them from getting into Pine Ridge because they didn't want those elements
messing up with the peace efforts they were making with this other group of Indians.
And ultimately that's where the conflict came in.
As the 7th Calvary eventually did find and accept the surrender of Bigfoot's band, they
had been camped out, the Calvary had been camped out on Wounded Knee Creek.
It was called the Post Office Crossing of Wounded Knee and it was a road that went to
the Pine Ridge agency.
They brought the Indians back to Wounded Knee Creek to where the Calvary was encamped.
They called for reinforcements to double their firepower.
Essentially as a show of force they wanted to ensure that the Indians realized that they
were overwhelmed both in numbers and firepower.
So since you had two battalions of the 7th Calvary and a battery of artillery surrounding
what was about somewhere between 350 and 370 Indians from these, from principally Bigfoot's
band and convinced them to surrender their arms.
History will never be able to sort out exactly who started what, just as the information about
how many died where seems confusing reading it 125 plus years later.
But clearly what ended up happening is that overwhelming force ended up wiping out pretty
much all of that band of Indians that were at Wounded Knee.
Yeah, so I would say almost like any battle, you have as many perspectives as you do players
and then certainly you have two very differing perspectives from the different sides.
And so if you were to look at a modern day battle today, the way what we would call the
enemy would see the battle would be different, very different from the way we see the battle.
Not only because they're looking at it from a different perspective, but they have their
own worldview.
They have their own understanding of the motivations that brought them there and what brought their
opposing force there.
And so you end up, I think, with any event, two very different opposing views.
And that's really what we have going on now.
We have one segment saying, hey, this is the battle of Wounded Knee.
Another segment saying, no, it's the massacre at Wounded Knee.
And because it was a massacre, giving any military awards out is against the country's
principles and the 20 Medal of Honor that were awarded at Wounded Knee should be withdrawn.
And that's what this Stain, Remove the Stain Act is about.
You've written to the House Armed Services Committee as an individual, as a historian,
telling them why that sort of retrospective look today with today's standards would simply
be wrong.
And here on Veteran Radio, we have Colonel Russell spoken a number of times with folks
about the Medal of Honor and how the criteria for the Medal of Honor has changed over time.
And that today's modern Medal of Honor is nothing like what it was during the Civil
War, the Indian Wars prior to, say, World War I or World War II.
So talk to us a little bit about that retrospective look and why you think it's inappropriate
for Congress to take on this action, although it's being implored to do so by many of the
Co-Denation supporters.
Sure.
So let me first say Wounded Knee was unique in the Indian Wars in that the commanding general
was extremely upset with the result.
He did not like the number, specifically the number of U.S. casualties under the conditions.
So you end up with, I think by about the second or third day, you had 25 that died.
Ultimately, you had about five more that died.
In other words, I think it was 30 and all that could be related to having been killed
there, that soldiers.
That was a high number in General Miles was not happy with that.
So he initiated an investigation within days of Wounded Knee occurring.
And it was investigated, essentially gaining testimony from just about every officer who
was on the battlefield.
And that's very unique to go back and find sworn statements within days of the battle
from the officers who participated.
And so what you have is an extremely detailed view of what the Army, at least the soldiers
who fought there, believed happened at Wounded Knee.
And you don't get that in just about any other Indian perspective.
You have people trying to piece it together months after, once the campaigns are over
and often it's newspaper reports or it's letters, it's not sworn testimony.
And so what you have is a very detailed record taken within a week or two of the battle.
They actually go out and they survey the battlefield and they map the whole battlefield and they
map out where the Indians were and where the soldiers were.
And so you have this very detailed record that you get with almost no other battle across
the Indian Wars.
You have also what occurred after every major Indian Wars battle, the US Army soldiers that
were involved in that recognize those who they felt were heroic.
And so with Wounded Knee, you end up with ultimately 30 medals that are awarded across
the campaign.
And of those, I want to say 23 of them specifically went to the 7th Calvary or the 1st Artillery
for either Wounded Knee or White Clay Creek, which is a small skirmish or battle that happened
the following day.
And it seems like you hear the number 23 medals of honor, that's huge.
But when you consider that there's no bronze star, there's no silver star, there's no
distinguished service cross, there actually was a very detailed study done on the medals
from the little big horn, which are about the same number.
I want to say there was 24 there.
And compare that to World War I, World War II, Vietnam, Korea.
And it comes out about the same percent, about 10% of soldiers that are serving at the time
of the conflict, whether they're involved in it or not, ultimately end up receiving some
sort of valorous award.
Now, obviously, since World War I, those are other medals, they're medals of honor, but
they're also distinguished service crosses.
And then later you have the introduction of the silver star or the bronze star.
And so the numbers really are not out of whack with how we see medals awarded today.
You also, if you looked at other battles, you would find similar numbers.
I want to say there was 24 at the little big horn.
I think in the 80s, the number of medals that were awarded for the little big horn campaign
that span that whole year.
You have, I want to say there was a battle with the Apaches that was 32 medals of honor.
For one single-stays action, that involved two troops of Calvary and only two soldiers
were killed.
And so those higher numbers of medals of honor are not out of the ordinary for the time period
in the era.
The Medal of Honor obviously had a different meaning at the time of the soldier.
If you read the newspaper accounts of soldiers receiving the Medal of Honor, it's clear that
the civilians don't really know or understand what the Medal of Honor is yet.
It does not have the prestige that it gains later.
There are no White House ceremonies with the president presenting this medal.
They are engraved and then mailed to the unit and the unit presents it however they want
to, usually in a formation, sometimes on a parade field.
There's at least one picture that is taken of a Medal of Honor ceremony that I want to
say it's the Second Battalion does while they're in the field in the summer of 1891 and it's
on horseback where they go up and present a Medal of Honor.
Maybe the first photograph of a Medal of Honor presentation and that's to First Sergeant
Frederick Toy receives the Medal of Honor.
Let me move you on to a before because I want to get to this before we run out of time.
That's the concept that we ought to look back and remove Medal of Honor recipients.
It's been done before.
We've removed Medal of Honor recipients when the Army, the D.O.D. has decided that, hey,
he's got him for signing up versus really a valour although the criteria was different.
But this concept that we would have the adversary in this instance, the Lakota Nation, be pushing
for removal because of what happened to them puts a whole other interesting twist on it.
Would you comment on that?
Yeah, so probably my biggest concern with this is the precedent that would have said
in that you start to look at Medals of Honor that have been awarded in the past, not just
from the perspective of the soldiers who fought there, which is how every medal is awarded.
Every medal is based on soldiers saying, here's what happened on the battlefield, U.S. soldiers.
There's not a single medal out there where we've gone to the other side and asked our
opponents, what do you think about who should get medals?
And so it's a difficult situation in that the Lakota Nation, they're obviously U.S.
citizens now and very productive members of society.
They're veterans, they've served in wars, they've received medals themselves, and they
clearly have a strong emotional tie to wounded knee and want these medals rescinded.
But it really would be looking at the perspective of the adversary the Army faced in 1890 and
asking them whether they think it's appropriate to award medals.
And that's, I think, a very slippery slope, a very steep slippery slope, that once you've
done that, you then open up to any faction in future generations to question any medal
that's ever been awarded.
So if you have a faction of a Muslim community in the United States who disagrees with the
reason we fought in Iraq, they then start lobbying to rescind medals from Iraq.
You know, apply that to Afghanistan.
If we went to the descendants of survivors of the city of Dresden and asked them whether
the valorous awards that the Army Air Corps pilots received when we firebombed that city,
obviously that would be a very different perspective.
And so to me, that's the concern in this case is that we really start to look at battles
from our adversary's perspective and then start questioning whether medals should be
awarded or not.
That's a pretty slippery slope.
Well, and that's exactly why we asked Colonel Samuel Russell, retired from the U.S. Army
and historian, who has focused for over two decades on the battle of wounded need to talk
to us, is because of that issue, that where it goes into the future.
Sam, can you tell folks how they might be able to read your submittal to the House
Armed Services Committee and how they might be able to keep an eye on what's going on
on this issue?
Sure.
So I've had a blog website, if you will, for about six years now.
It's called army at wounded knee dot com, where I go out and present the perspective,
usually primary sources, letters, diaries, sworn testimony, reports, et cetera, on what
the Army's actions were at wounded need, what brought them to wounded knee, and what the
soldiers say happened out there.
And when I wrote the House Armed Services Committee now about three weeks ago, I took
a copy of that letter and posted that.
So that's currently my most recent post.
So if you went to just army at wounded knee dot com, that's the first thing that would
come up, setting the record straight regarding HR 3467 and remove the stain act.
And it's a, to be honest, one of the lengthier posts.
It ended up being about 53 pages, the letter in length of analysis, because what I did
was go into the actual medals of honor, the 23 that were awarded.
And I went into the National Archives and I found the letters that the company commanders
wrote recommending their soldiers.
So where you may see a citation on them, if you looked up one of the Medal of Honor recipients,
it will say for bravery.
But obviously the commander wrote a lot more than that.
And so they, you start to get a more detailed understanding of what those soldiers did at
that battle.
And then I also talk about some of the actions that were taken in 1916 and 1917 when Congress
asked the ward apartment to relook its medals of honor.
It gives a little bit of a precedent set there and some of the, some of the thoughts from
that board and the results they came out with.
It's really well written and it's really well researched and that's why we asked you to
come on and talk about it a little bit, Sam.
We appreciate the level of interest that you have in this and the passion you've put on
it.
I encourage everybody to go and take a look at this.
And when you do, then you probably ought to talk to your US Congressman about your thoughts
on this particular proposed bill and whether or not, as the colonel says, it's historic.
Historically deficient and make up your own mind and have those kind of discussions.
We're glad to be this thought provoking on this sort of interesting issue because it
not only looks backward to 1890, but as you say, you make this precedent now, you're
going to be revisiting the awards for valor that are given out in Iraq and Afghanistan
and Germany and Japan and Vietnam and other conflicts.
So it's definitely worth giving some thought to and we appreciate you taking some time
today on Veterans Radio to give us your perspective.
Absolutely.
I appreciate the opportunity, Jim.