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All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.

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And welcome to Veterans Radio.

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I am Jim Fossone with veteransradio.net.

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We are recording today from the Legal Help for Veterans Studio in Northville, Michigan.

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Legal Help for Veterans is a Veterans Disability Law Firm.

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You can reach us at 800-693-4800.

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We want to welcome to Veterans Radio today Colonel Samuel L. Russell, U.S. Army, retired.

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Colonel, welcome to Veterans Radio.

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Thank you, Jim.

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It's good to be with you today.

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Well, we have you on not only because of your military experience, which I'll let the listeners

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know, you served 29 years in the U.S. Army.

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You're actually a fifth generation Army officer.

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The family's got a deep, deep roots in the Army.

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And other military fields, you let a brother go off to the Marine Corps.

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How did that happen?

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But we really have you on today not to talk about your experience in the quartermaster

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of a Corps or in your overseas assignments, but to talk about an issue as a historian

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that's going on in Washington today.

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And it's related to the Battle of Wounded Knee back in 1890.

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So we're going way back.

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But before we do, go ahead and give us just a touch of the family and personal military

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service, Sam.

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Yeah, so, you know, one of those families that, you know, the sons end up doing what

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the fathers did, and that's gone on for, you know, about five generations now.

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And so I have a connection to that battle in Wounded Knee, and that I've got a great,

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great grandfather that was one of the key officers that was in the Army at the time

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and at that battle.

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And so that's really my connection there.

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I'm a bit of a genealogist as well.

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And my tie or my interest in Wounded Knee really stemmed from my trying to understand

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my family and what they had done before me and how they had touched history.

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And obviously this was a big touch point that I have come back to again and again and again

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over the last two decades.

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And that's really part of it here is that as a military historian, you've written on

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a number of subjects, but this subject in particular, the Battle at Wounded Knee, you

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keep going back to.

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And you had to go back to it again this year because of a bill introduced into Congress,

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H.R. 3467, called Remove the Stain, which was asking the Congress to take up the issue

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of whether or not the men who were awarded medals of honor as a result of the battle

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at Wounded Knee in December of 1890, whether those medals should be revoked.

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Have I summed that up right?

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No, that's very good.

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This has also been a cause that the Lakota Nation have taken up for about at least two

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decades, seeing those medals as a stain on American history and on their heritage specifically.

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And they've done over the years a number of resolutions calling for those medals to be

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rescinded.

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So I ended up getting involved because this is the first time where it has actually been

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written into language in Congress as proposed legislation introduced at the end of June.

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So going back just a little over a month now when it was introduced and referred to the

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House Armed Services Committee for consideration.

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Well, it's pretty clear from the program prep that I've done that there's sort of a dispute

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as to the facts of what really occurred at Wounded Knee, the Lakota Nation has one viewpoint.

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I think the Army may have another and you writing as a historian have a viewpoint.

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So why don't you go ahead and summarize for those who have heard of Wounded Knee but don't

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really have a recollection of the history of what was going on at that time in December

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of 1890 and this particular engagement.

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Yeah, so by 1890, most of the tribes were all at that point on reservations.

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And you had a a parceling of the Great Sioux Nation, the Great Sioux Reservation, which

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spanned the areas of the Dakota Territory, which now is North and South Dakota.

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In about 1889, there was work to a land act to try to parcel that up, reduce the lands

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and they did by, you know, I think 50 million acres or something like that that ended up

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being freed up in a treaty that was signed by a number of tribes in 1889 that was put

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into effect in February of 1890.

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And that caused quite a bit of consternation, obviously with the clothe of people.

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There were some that signed, there were some that were vehemently against that.

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And another one of those instances where they felt perhaps cheated out of their land.

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It also was an area of two years in a row or a time of two years in a row when drought

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had hit the plains and it hit the Dakotas especially hard.

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And so any crops that the Lakota were able to grow really were failing for two years

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in a row.

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You had coincidentally at the same time, Congress taking action to try to wean the Lakota nation

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off of much of the rations that they had been committed to or that the government had committed

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to give them due to numerous trees that they had signed.

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And so you saw a reduction in beef issues, a reduction in the expenditures for rations.

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And so all of those events kind of culminated in the summer of 1890 and just really made

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a desperate situation for the Lakota people.

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And in one of the ways that that desperation materialized, I guess as a symptom you would

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say, it was a religious movement that was called the Ghost Dance Movement where the

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Lakota essentially were looking for a way to restore their lands before the arrival of

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the white people that some of their warriors would come back that the plains would be repopulated

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with buffalo and other game.

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And the movement really took off amongst the Midwest tribes, really all of the tribes,

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the Cheyenne and the Lakota really grasped onto this religion to the point that it was

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disturbing to the Indian agents, they felt that their Indian, their Indian keep, their

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charges were out of control.

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And so they called for in the fall of 1890 military intervention.

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They felt the only way they could get control of the reservations, the Indians there, to

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get them to stop dancing is what they called it, was to bring the military in.

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And so the campaign was put in charge of Major General Nelson Miles, who was the commanding

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general of the division of the Missouri.

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The president told him to prevent any outbreak and do it without any bloodshed if possible,

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but to ensure that no settlers were endangered.

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And so there was a very large buildup, actually the largest military buildup, if you will,

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since the Civil War.

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So was the ultimate involved in about a third of the field army across the infantry, the

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cavalry and their artillery.

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I want to say there was about 6000 plus troops that were moved to the area, in addition to

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the 5000 or so that were already there.

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So it was for a very small frontier army.

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It was a huge massive deployment of resources to try to prevent this, this, I guess this

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movement, this religious movement from turning into an Indian outbreak.

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And this was what a show of force designed to kind of quiet things down.

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Hey, there's such overwhelming force here.

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We're just, you know, we really let go of people have to pull back.

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Is that what was going on?

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Sure.

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It started small and it was essentially a go to the reservations and protect the agencies.

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And so you had troops that began to arrive at the Pine Ridge Agency and the Rosebud Agency

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and the Standing Rock Agency.

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And then as more troops arrived, they began to obviously move into a more aggressive stance

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of all right now let's go out and get all the Indians to get them back onto the reservations.

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And just as with any force deterrent option, it sometimes has the opposite effect instead

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of deterring and exacerbates.

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So you could say that's that's some of what happened here, but at the middle of December,

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there was an effort to go ahead and arrest Sitting Bull, both the Indian agent there

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and General Miles wanted him arrested and removed from the situation.

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They saw him as a spark that could set the thing off and they wanted to get him out of

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that picture.

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And during that arrest, it went awry.

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And you ended up with Sitting Bull being killed along with a number of Indian police and some

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of the members of Sitting Bull's band.

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And then that caused the rest of his band on the Standing Rock Reservation to flee that

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reservation and really set into motion a number of events that tragically would end up in

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a large number of deaths for a band of many Kanju, Lakota and part of Sitting Bull's Hong

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Kapa Indians that were killed at Wounded Knee.

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Then Wounded Knee occurred roughly two weeks after the attempt to arrest and ultimately

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death of Sitting Bull to put this into some context.

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So what sort of the US Army 7th Calvary then went to Wounded Knee Creek and sought to what

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move the Indians?

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So to give you a brief I can explanation, so you had a band of Indians, many Kanju Indians

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under Bigfoot, that had been actually under observation by the Army since about the previous

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April, so almost nine months now, the Army element that was in charge of that area had

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had Bigfoot's band under observation because he was perceived to be causing problems for

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the Indian ancient there and also because his village, when they redrew these reservation

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lines at the beginning of 1890, his village actually fell off the Cheyenne River Agency.

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So it was in an area that potentially could be sold off to settlers and so they wanted

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to make sure there wasn't a problem with settlers coming in and exacerbating the situation.

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So they put about four companies of infantry in Calvary to watch his band over the course

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of nine months and it ended up being his band that ultimately was wiped out at Wounded Knee.

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When the sitting bull elements fled from the Standing Rock Agency, there was a large number

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of them, about 30, 35 of them that ultimately linked up with Bigfoot and his band at their

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village right about the time that the 8th Calvary was trying to convince Bigfoot to

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come in peacefully to Fort Mead and surrender and it was the combination of those elements

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meeting and the Army moving in closer to his band that then caused them to decide to flee

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south towards Pine Ridge, which was about 100 miles away.

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And so then you had this band that General Miles had asked to be captured and taken to

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Fort Mead suddenly fled the area, the Army viewed that as them breaking out and outbreaking

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potentially to raid the settlers in the area and ultimately to link up with another group

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of Indians that were held up in defensive positions in what was called the stronghold.

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It was a large, flat Mesa area that offered great natural fortified positions for the

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Indians to fight from.

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And so they're really concerned that this band of many conjuves under Bigfoot and the

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elements of sitting bulls from Papa Band would link up with these Brule Indians that were

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from the Rosebud element in the stronghold and they wanted to prevent that.

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So they had a number of Calvary elements, Colonel Eugene Carr's 6th Calvary was out

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there, Lieutenant Colonel Sumner's 8th Calvary was out there.

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You had elements of the 9th Calvary under Colonel Guy Henry that were all out seeking

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to find Bigfoot's band and prevent them from linking up with these elements in the stronghold.

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It turns out they weren't going there at all.

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They were trying to get to the Pine Ridge agency.

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And when it became apparent they probably weren't going there, they sent the 7th Calvary

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out a little bit further to the west from where the stronghold was to try to find this

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band and prevent them from getting into Pine Ridge because they didn't want those elements

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messing up with the peace efforts they were making with this other group of Indians.

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And ultimately that's where the conflict came in.

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As the 7th Calvary eventually did find and accept the surrender of Bigfoot's band, they

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had been camped out, the Calvary had been camped out on Wounded Knee Creek.

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It was called the Post Office Crossing of Wounded Knee and it was a road that went to

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the Pine Ridge agency.

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They brought the Indians back to Wounded Knee Creek to where the Calvary was encamped.

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They called for reinforcements to double their firepower.

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Essentially as a show of force they wanted to ensure that the Indians realized that they

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were overwhelmed both in numbers and firepower.

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So since you had two battalions of the 7th Calvary and a battery of artillery surrounding

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what was about somewhere between 350 and 370 Indians from these, from principally Bigfoot's

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band and convinced them to surrender their arms.

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History will never be able to sort out exactly who started what, just as the information about

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how many died where seems confusing reading it 125 plus years later.

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But clearly what ended up happening is that overwhelming force ended up wiping out pretty

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much all of that band of Indians that were at Wounded Knee.

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Yeah, so I would say almost like any battle, you have as many perspectives as you do players

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and then certainly you have two very differing perspectives from the different sides.

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And so if you were to look at a modern day battle today, the way what we would call the

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enemy would see the battle would be different, very different from the way we see the battle.

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Not only because they're looking at it from a different perspective, but they have their

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own worldview.

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They have their own understanding of the motivations that brought them there and what brought their

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opposing force there.

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And so you end up, I think, with any event, two very different opposing views.

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And that's really what we have going on now.

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We have one segment saying, hey, this is the battle of Wounded Knee.

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Another segment saying, no, it's the massacre at Wounded Knee.

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And because it was a massacre, giving any military awards out is against the country's

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principles and the 20 Medal of Honor that were awarded at Wounded Knee should be withdrawn.

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And that's what this Stain, Remove the Stain Act is about.

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You've written to the House Armed Services Committee as an individual, as a historian,

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telling them why that sort of retrospective look today with today's standards would simply

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be wrong.

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And here on Veteran Radio, we have Colonel Russell spoken a number of times with folks

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about the Medal of Honor and how the criteria for the Medal of Honor has changed over time.

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And that today's modern Medal of Honor is nothing like what it was during the Civil

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War, the Indian Wars prior to, say, World War I or World War II.

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So talk to us a little bit about that retrospective look and why you think it's inappropriate

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for Congress to take on this action, although it's being implored to do so by many of the

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Co-Denation supporters.

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Sure.

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So let me first say Wounded Knee was unique in the Indian Wars in that the commanding general

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was extremely upset with the result.

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He did not like the number, specifically the number of U.S. casualties under the conditions.

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So you end up with, I think by about the second or third day, you had 25 that died.

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Ultimately, you had about five more that died.

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In other words, I think it was 30 and all that could be related to having been killed

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there, that soldiers.

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That was a high number in General Miles was not happy with that.

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So he initiated an investigation within days of Wounded Knee occurring.

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And it was investigated, essentially gaining testimony from just about every officer who

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was on the battlefield.

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And that's very unique to go back and find sworn statements within days of the battle

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from the officers who participated.

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And so what you have is an extremely detailed view of what the Army, at least the soldiers

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who fought there, believed happened at Wounded Knee.

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And you don't get that in just about any other Indian perspective.

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You have people trying to piece it together months after, once the campaigns are over

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and often it's newspaper reports or it's letters, it's not sworn testimony.

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And so what you have is a very detailed record taken within a week or two of the battle.

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They actually go out and they survey the battlefield and they map the whole battlefield and they

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map out where the Indians were and where the soldiers were.

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And so you have this very detailed record that you get with almost no other battle across

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the Indian Wars.

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You have also what occurred after every major Indian Wars battle, the US Army soldiers that

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were involved in that recognize those who they felt were heroic.

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And so with Wounded Knee, you end up with ultimately 30 medals that are awarded across

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the campaign.

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And of those, I want to say 23 of them specifically went to the 7th Calvary or the 1st Artillery

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for either Wounded Knee or White Clay Creek, which is a small skirmish or battle that happened

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the following day.

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And it seems like you hear the number 23 medals of honor, that's huge.

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But when you consider that there's no bronze star, there's no silver star, there's no

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distinguished service cross, there actually was a very detailed study done on the medals

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from the little big horn, which are about the same number.

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I want to say there was 24 there.

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And compare that to World War I, World War II, Vietnam, Korea.

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And it comes out about the same percent, about 10% of soldiers that are serving at the time

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of the conflict, whether they're involved in it or not, ultimately end up receiving some

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sort of valorous award.

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Now, obviously, since World War I, those are other medals, they're medals of honor, but

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they're also distinguished service crosses.

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And then later you have the introduction of the silver star or the bronze star.

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And so the numbers really are not out of whack with how we see medals awarded today.

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You also, if you looked at other battles, you would find similar numbers.

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I want to say there was 24 at the little big horn.

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I think in the 80s, the number of medals that were awarded for the little big horn campaign

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that span that whole year.

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You have, I want to say there was a battle with the Apaches that was 32 medals of honor.

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For one single-stays action, that involved two troops of Calvary and only two soldiers

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were killed.

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And so those higher numbers of medals of honor are not out of the ordinary for the time period

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in the era.

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The Medal of Honor obviously had a different meaning at the time of the soldier.

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If you read the newspaper accounts of soldiers receiving the Medal of Honor, it's clear that

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the civilians don't really know or understand what the Medal of Honor is yet.

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It does not have the prestige that it gains later.

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There are no White House ceremonies with the president presenting this medal.

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They are engraved and then mailed to the unit and the unit presents it however they want

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to, usually in a formation, sometimes on a parade field.

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There's at least one picture that is taken of a Medal of Honor ceremony that I want to

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say it's the Second Battalion does while they're in the field in the summer of 1891 and it's

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on horseback where they go up and present a Medal of Honor.

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Maybe the first photograph of a Medal of Honor presentation and that's to First Sergeant

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Frederick Toy receives the Medal of Honor.

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Let me move you on to a before because I want to get to this before we run out of time.

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That's the concept that we ought to look back and remove Medal of Honor recipients.

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It's been done before.

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We've removed Medal of Honor recipients when the Army, the D.O.D. has decided that, hey,

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he's got him for signing up versus really a valour although the criteria was different.

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But this concept that we would have the adversary in this instance, the Lakota Nation, be pushing

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for removal because of what happened to them puts a whole other interesting twist on it.

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Would you comment on that?

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Yeah, so probably my biggest concern with this is the precedent that would have said

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in that you start to look at Medals of Honor that have been awarded in the past, not just

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from the perspective of the soldiers who fought there, which is how every medal is awarded.

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Every medal is based on soldiers saying, here's what happened on the battlefield, U.S. soldiers.

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There's not a single medal out there where we've gone to the other side and asked our

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opponents, what do you think about who should get medals?

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And so it's a difficult situation in that the Lakota Nation, they're obviously U.S.

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citizens now and very productive members of society.

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They're veterans, they've served in wars, they've received medals themselves, and they

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clearly have a strong emotional tie to wounded knee and want these medals rescinded.

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But it really would be looking at the perspective of the adversary the Army faced in 1890 and

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asking them whether they think it's appropriate to award medals.

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And that's, I think, a very slippery slope, a very steep slippery slope, that once you've

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done that, you then open up to any faction in future generations to question any medal

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that's ever been awarded.

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So if you have a faction of a Muslim community in the United States who disagrees with the

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reason we fought in Iraq, they then start lobbying to rescind medals from Iraq.

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You know, apply that to Afghanistan.

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If we went to the descendants of survivors of the city of Dresden and asked them whether

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the valorous awards that the Army Air Corps pilots received when we firebombed that city,

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obviously that would be a very different perspective.

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And so to me, that's the concern in this case is that we really start to look at battles

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from our adversary's perspective and then start questioning whether medals should be

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awarded or not.

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That's a pretty slippery slope.

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Well, and that's exactly why we asked Colonel Samuel Russell, retired from the U.S. Army

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and historian, who has focused for over two decades on the battle of wounded need to talk

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to us, is because of that issue, that where it goes into the future.

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Sam, can you tell folks how they might be able to read your submittal to the House

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Armed Services Committee and how they might be able to keep an eye on what's going on

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on this issue?

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Sure.

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So I've had a blog website, if you will, for about six years now.

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It's called army at wounded knee dot com, where I go out and present the perspective,

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usually primary sources, letters, diaries, sworn testimony, reports, et cetera, on what

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the Army's actions were at wounded need, what brought them to wounded knee, and what the

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soldiers say happened out there.

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And when I wrote the House Armed Services Committee now about three weeks ago, I took

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a copy of that letter and posted that.

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So that's currently my most recent post.

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So if you went to just army at wounded knee dot com, that's the first thing that would

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come up, setting the record straight regarding HR 3467 and remove the stain act.

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And it's a, to be honest, one of the lengthier posts.

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It ended up being about 53 pages, the letter in length of analysis, because what I did

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was go into the actual medals of honor, the 23 that were awarded.

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And I went into the National Archives and I found the letters that the company commanders

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wrote recommending their soldiers.

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So where you may see a citation on them, if you looked up one of the Medal of Honor recipients,

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it will say for bravery.

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But obviously the commander wrote a lot more than that.

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And so they, you start to get a more detailed understanding of what those soldiers did at

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that battle.

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And then I also talk about some of the actions that were taken in 1916 and 1917 when Congress

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asked the ward apartment to relook its medals of honor.

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It gives a little bit of a precedent set there and some of the, some of the thoughts from

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that board and the results they came out with.

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It's really well written and it's really well researched and that's why we asked you to

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come on and talk about it a little bit, Sam.

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We appreciate the level of interest that you have in this and the passion you've put on

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it.

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I encourage everybody to go and take a look at this.

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And when you do, then you probably ought to talk to your US Congressman about your thoughts

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on this particular proposed bill and whether or not, as the colonel says, it's historic.

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Historically deficient and make up your own mind and have those kind of discussions.

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We're glad to be this thought provoking on this sort of interesting issue because it

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not only looks backward to 1890, but as you say, you make this precedent now, you're

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going to be revisiting the awards for valor that are given out in Iraq and Afghanistan

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and Germany and Japan and Vietnam and other conflicts.

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So it's definitely worth giving some thought to and we appreciate you taking some time

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today on Veterans Radio to give us your perspective.

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Absolutely.

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I appreciate the opportunity, Jim.