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All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.

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This is Veterans Radio.

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Welcome to Veterans Radio.

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I am Jim Fausone.

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We want to welcome back to VeteransRadio today Vice Admiral Kevin Green, United States Navy, retired.

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We're going to talk about the fleet structure and issues related to that.

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And then we're also going to get into talking about the Navy's recruiting issue

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and how that impacts all these other decisions.

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But let me set this up a little bit.

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Kevin Green went to Annapolis in 1971 and about 30 years later,

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30-plus years of military service, retired as a Vice Admiral, has been very active in all things defense

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and Navy since then, both in the private government, private corporation world,

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as well as government affairs and stays very attuned to things.

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He commanded the USS Abraham Lincoln Carrier Group when he was active duty.

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And I think his last assignment was Deputy Chief of Naval Operations, Plans and Policy before his retirement.

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Admiral, welcome back to VeteransRadio.

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Thank you, Jim. I'm happy to be with you.

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Well, we spoke before about something that's going on, which is NATO's 75th anniversary,

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and we got done. And I said, hey, Admiral, I got some more questions for you,

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and you were gracious enough to say, yeah, we should talk about that.

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So really what we want to talk about, it starts with acknowledging some of the challenges

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that the United States has in its national security around the world on the high seas.

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And that leads you into thinking about, well, what's the right Navy force structure?

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What are the plans that we have to have in place?

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So why don't you recap a little bit about what the Navy looks at in terms of strategic concerns

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on the oceans around the world?

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Certainly. And the foundation of all of that is a description of the missions of the Navy.

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Why do we have the Navy in the first place? And what does the Navy do for the country?

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More than 50 years ago, the Chief of Naval Operations, the senior Admiral of the Navy,

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laid out four basic missions for the Navy, one of them strategic deterrents principally

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through our strategic submarine force. The next was sea control, maintaining control

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of the seas, projection of power ashore with our partners, the United States Marine Corps,

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and the Army to be complete, and naval presence around the world.

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And by missions, what we're talking about are the outputs of the objectives of having a Navy

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in the first place. Recently, the current Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Franchetti,

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answered the question publicly when asked, what does the Navy do?

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And the Navy is here to preserve the peace, to respond in a crisis, and to win decisively

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in wars. The Navy operates far forward around the world and around the clock, from the seabed

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to space and cyberspace and in the information environment, promoting our nation's prosperity

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and security, deterring aggression, and providing options to our nation's leaders. We deliver

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power for peace and are always postured and ready to fight and win as part of the joint

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force that is with the other U.S. military services, and alongside our allies and partners.

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The headquarters of the Navy is focused on organizing, training, and equipping the Navy

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in order to carry out the missions that are assigned by the combatant commanders, the

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geographic combatant commanders run various sections of the globe, and we, along with

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the other services, provide the forces that allow them to carry out their peacetime and

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their wartime missions. So what we do is a really important part of that. And when we

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start thinking hard about the force structure, the size of the fleet, one measure is the

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total number of battle force ships. Today, there are 293 battle force ships, meaning

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what you would think of as warships, aircraft carriers, amphibious assault ships, destroyers,

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cruisers, frigates, and so forth, 293 of them altogether. When we also count the military

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seal of command ships, the ships that provide the logistic support for that battle force.

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When you put that in context, give us some indication of the, I don't know, I think most

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people don't understand how old the fleet is, maybe how long a ship is good for until

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it has to be replaced. Help the uninformed get a better idea of is 293 all you need,

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or how does replacement and those sorts of things come into play?

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Sure. Well, it is a fact that things that humans build don't generally last forever,

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and that is certainly true of ships and aircraft that operate in the complex, demanding, and

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very, very difficult environment of the sea, of the oceans of the world, and the literal

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areas, that is, the parts of the ocean that are close to land. Typically, we like to keep

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a ship for 30 to 40 years. We have an average age on our fleet today of about 24 years,

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and that includes submarines, the aircraft carriers, and the destroyers, cruisers, and

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literal combat ships, some of them quite new, but you can tell from that average age of

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in the mid-20s or so that it is a big challenge. We are constantly building new ships, bringing

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them out, putting them into commission, and operating them in order to carry out these

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missions that are assigned to us. You mentioned, or you asked if 293 was the right number.

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Well, the day I entered the Naval Academy in the 1960s, we had almost a thousand ships

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in the Navy in the fleet. Now, a lot of them were, frankly speaking, relics from World

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War II. Others were relatively new ships. They had different kinds of missions, and

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they were nowhere near as capable as the ships we have today. So when we talk about the right

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size of the ship and how one would compare that with any other ship around the world,

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it is by consensus in the people who analyze naval forces that the number one, the top,

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the most powerful fleet in the world today is the United States Navy. There's a little

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question about that. The Chinese fleet has more holes in the water, but in terms of capability,

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in terms of missions, in terms of modernization, in terms of the things that really matter

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in the measure of a ship, we are at the top of the heap. That doesn't give us a heck of

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a lot of margin, however. And when we talk about potential operations that the Navy might

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be involved with in the future, we only have to consider the kinds of operations the Navy

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is involved in today around the world. We look at, in the Red Sea, for example, USS Eisenhower,

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an aircraft carrier strike group is every day taking out anti-ship missiles that are

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endangering the sea lanes, endangering merchant ships, plying their normal peacetime innocent

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travel around the world to provide products and services to the world, the countries of

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the world. We look at threats to Taiwan and the South China Sea. We look at issues having

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to do with the Korean Peninsula and concerns there. We look at areas of the globe. Believe

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it or not, there is still a piracy issue around the world, whether it's in the South Asia

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area or in the Western Pacific or it's off the coast of Africa or either in the South

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Atlantic or in the Indian Ocean. It's a genuine mission that continues. And one of the challenges,

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one of the concerns we have is even with the exquisitely equipped, crewed, trained and ready

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ships that we have in that battle force, a ship can only be in one place at one time.

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And when there are lots of different challenges around the world, whether it has to do with

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Eastern Europe, the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, the Pacific, you name it, it is a real challenge

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satisfying those operational demands of our combatant commanders to provide the fleet forces

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that are necessary for them to carry out their missions. And I am very sure that if you were

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to talk with any of those combatant commanders, they would tell you, yes, we can do our mission

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today, but it's a narrow margin. And I wish I had more forces at hand, ships, aircraft,

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and this pertains to the other military services as well.

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Yeah, what's unique though on the Navy mission though is you mentioned it, you can only have

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that ship in one spot, and it takes a long time to transit somewhere else. It's not a

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matter about jumping on a plane and moving folks by air travel. It's a much slower process,

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and it's not just the number of ships you have, but the types and the locations where

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they can be deployed, because you just ran us around the whole world from the Mideast

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to the South China Sea and everywhere in between. How do you then, you know, how is the country

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now planning because a ship has such a long life and a long time to be, you know, takes

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to build? How do you plan for the future like that? The ship you launched today is going

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to be around for 35 years. How do you think about what it's actually going to be used

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for over that 35-year period? Well, that's a great question, Jim, and

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it's the center of why the National Defense Strategy is so important. The National Defense

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Strategy anticipates developments around the world that would make a big difference in

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the planning for structure, meaning how many people do we need to have on active duty,

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how many aircraft, how many ships, how much ammunition, how many systems? How do we tie

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all of those things together electronically in the sense of sharing information and intelligence

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and all of that? Keeping in mind that while we're doing our planning, our potential adversaries

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are doing the same, they are designing and building their forces, naval forces, military,

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air forces, space, and certainly cyber forces to overcome the strengths that we have today.

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And our National Military Strategy leans forward on that. What do we have to be able to do

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to maintain our current advantages and avoid a situation where we're outgunned, we're outnumbered,

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and we've run out of ideas? We have got to create the warfighting advantages, and that

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will dictate what we need to build and what we need to invest in. And while we're doing

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that, one of the issues that is a controlling factor is the defense industrial sector. What

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can our private sector companies, our industry partners, and academia do to help us move forward?

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And I have to tell you that when we look at a battle force of 293 ships, not all of those

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ships are available all the time. They're going through maintenance. Nuclear propelled

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ships go through periodic nuclear refueling, which takes a long time to get completed.

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It's expensive as well. The capacity of shipyards, both federal shipyards, and there are a few

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of those left, but commercial shipyards where the ships are built, where the ships are maintained,

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and the other industrial firms that provide maintenance and provide the systems, the armaments,

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the munitions, and the other systems, it's a big challenge. So the question at this point

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comes, well, what are we going to do about all this? Looking at what the military leadership

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and what the senior folks in Congress and what the administration are dealing with,

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number one thing for them to keep in mind, and they do, is that the threats to our nation

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and our interests around the world are real in their growing. It's a changing strategic

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environment. We've got to be able to defend the homeland. We've got to be able to deter

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strategic attack, and we've got to be able to deter potential adversaries from moving

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against us and be prepared to prevail in the event of a strategic attack or in the event

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of any conflict with any of the host of potential adversaries that are out there.

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Well, you said one of the four pillars here of the mission is strategic deterrence, and

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you can't have strategic deterrence if your adversaries say, well, their fleet continues

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to erode and get older and they're not replacing it fast enough. We just have to wait them

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out 10 years and we'll have the advantage because there isn't strategic deterrence.

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So I recently was reading in preparation to talking to you the Congressional Research

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Services White Paper on March 1st of 2024 on the Navy 4th Structure and Shipbuilding

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Plants, and they say, well, we're going to build 11 ships per year for 35 years, and

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that'll get us up to something like 355 ships. And my first reaction was, oh my God, 35

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years to get up to that number? Again, I have just a general layman's view of this thing.

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When you look at those kind of projections, and again, we're talking to retired Vice

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Admiral Kevin Green, who is the Deputy Chief Naval Operations Plans and Policy Director

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at one point, how do you look at those sort of plans and say, well, here's a 35-year plan.

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We'll try to build 11 a year.

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Well, I'll tell you, Jim, it worries me, and I'm not alone. And we have put ourselves

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in a situation where in the short term, we have to focus on readiness, readiness of the

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platforms that is the ship's aircraft and other systems that we use, but ensuring that

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when they deploy, when they leave port to go over and carry out an operational mission,

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they are ready. They are trained. They are well-armed. The systems work. They have the

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spares and the materials and the ammo that they need to get the job done. That doesn't

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solve the longer-term problem, but it solves the immediate problem when we're able to get

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enough of them out there. There's been a lot of focus in the past several years on how

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many of this battle force, how many of the battle force ships are fully ready for mission.

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In the aviation world, they refer to that measure as full mission capable, and the FMC

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rates, full mission capability rates of the naval air force has gone up significantly

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in the last several years due to investments and better means of managing that force. They've

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done a great job, and they have to stay on it. One of the things that occurs to me is

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this relationship with the defense industrial base and expanding the defense industrial

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base and finding things like disruptive capabilities, the things that we haven't had in the past,

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things that make a difference. The Secretary of the Navy has put together a new disruptive

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capabilities office that is looking at just that, and they're principally looking at things

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like cyber warfare and use of drones and all that. I have observed, I have seen and been

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present at demonstrations from a lot of different companies, companies that are not traditional

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defense firms that are applying new technologies to things that sound awfully mundane, things

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like propulsion systems. I saw a demo recently of a new kind of propulsion system for assault

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craft, amphibious craft, and so forth that is so different from what's been used before.

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Finding a way of connecting the government, the Department of Defense, and the folks who

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do the acquisition of new systems to connect them with the companies. This is good old

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American know-how and inventiveness and energy, brilliant new thoughts and being able to connect

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all of this together.

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You really have to count on some of that to stay up with folks, countries who may be

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spending more money and attempting to leapfrog you in just numbers of ships at sea. You have

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to try to move forward with some technologies, this disruptive capabilities you mentioned.

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That's one of the ones I wanted you to expand on a little bit because the Navy is planning

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on actually quite a number of larger unmanned underwater vehicles for a variety of work

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and missions over the next couple of decades and maybe moving that number up to like, I

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think I read 150. Again, help us who aren't in this regularly to think about what does

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that do? How does that help your capabilities?

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Well, first of all, back to that earlier point that one ship can only be in one place at

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a time. The fifth fleet in the Persian Gulf and the northern Indian Ocean and the Red

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Sea has for years now been engaged in a brilliantly successful and extremely innovative program

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to use unmanned systems, platforms, principally surface-based boats, if you will, aircraft

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also to be able to expand their ability to conduct surveillance and intelligence gathering.

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That's been true in the fourth fleet area of responsibility as well in the Caribbean

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and around South America and Central America. They're able to use these systems in a theater

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where it's hard to get a large number of ships and aircraft because it's a very large area

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and there's lots of work to be done, but being able to use those kinds of systems is extraordinarily

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powerful. Evel Poparo, who's the commander of the US Pacific Fleet now and has been confirmed

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by the Senate to be the next commander of the Indo-Pacific Command later this year,

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has made a number of public statements concerning the use of thousands of such unmanned systems,

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subsurface, surface, and aerial, to be able to again expand his ability to gain intelligence,

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surveillance, and in some cases, they can have other kinetic missions as well. It's

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a very exciting change and it requires fewer people to be placed at the scene of action,

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if you will, and some of these platforms have extraordinary endurance. We've done a number

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of lead exercises in the last year and a half or so that have demonstrated the value to

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the fighting force of what these platforms can do.

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Well, it's really interesting and I think in a very positive way for national security,

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Admiral. And while I also am very worried that we don't either have the Congressional

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Budget for or the Defense and Duffer drill base to build more ships that are more rapid

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paced than we need, I don't want to end this on a downer. I really want to come back and

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say one of the things that I think is also going on in recognition of what some of our

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adversaries are doing is a greater effort to have naval partners and I'm thinking of

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Australia in particular, but I suspect this goes on worldwide that the US Navy is working

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hard to have naval partners in other countries sort of as a force multiplier and strategic

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deterrent. Can you advise us a little bit about that?

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Absolutely. And you and I were speaking last week about things. I mentioned that I served

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on a German ship back in my midship and days. Ships that I served on as a commission officer

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had exchange officers and others and we operated with NATO ships and with Japanese ships and

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with Korean ships and others as well. Today, the British, the French, the Germans, members

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of NATO, you know, countries in Europe are already engaged in planning and continuing

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a series of operations of their ships in the western Pacific because of their understanding

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that if there's a serious problem somewhere in the globe, it's going to affect the entire

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globe and that's a very, very encouraging and positive development. And I have to say

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that once again, the strength of our national abilities is not dependent on us alone. We

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have great partners who have been proven in combat who have made it very clear where their

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loyalties lie and we couldn't be more fortunate than to have the friends that we do. And typically

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the adversaries that we consider for potential concern in the future don't have that luxury

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of having strong, capable friends to be able to help them out. You mentioned one last thing

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on the defense industrial base. The shipyards that they operate are so important to us.

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Their workforces are important as well. And I'll tell you what, that's tough work. Work

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in a shipyard, it's extraordinarily rewarding. The skills and talents take years to develop

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and there can't be a more satisfying career for someone with an industrial bent than to

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work in one of our commercial shipyards in the United States.

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Such important work, you're right. We're talking with Vice Admiral Kevin P. Green, retired

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United States Navy. And we've been talking about fleet structure and some of the challenges

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the Navy faces on a national security front around the world. And we really appreciate

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his time on this subject.

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And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim Fausone.

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It's been a pleasure to be your host. I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help

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for Veterans and you can reach us at 800-6934800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web. You

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can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and internet radio

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shows by visiting us at veteransradio.org. That's veteransradio.org. And until next time,

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you are dismissed.

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are dismissed.