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All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.

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This is Veterans Radio.

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Welcome to Veterans Radio.

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I am Jim Fausone.

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I'm the officer of the deck today.

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We've got some great programs for you.

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I think you'll find very interesting.

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or at the web.

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Where we're on the web 24-7, you can find a lot of our podcasts there as well.

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We post new ones every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a new interview,

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something you didn't know before by going to VeteransRadio.org.

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And before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors.

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First up, we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org.

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You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org.

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You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at LegalHelpForVeterans.com.

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We want to welcome to VeteransRadio today two retired Navy officers, Vice Admiral Kevin Green

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and Captain Bruce Lemkin.

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Admiral, welcome to VeteransRadio.

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Thanks very much.

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Happy to be with you.

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And Captain, welcome to VeteransRadio.

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Thank you, Jim.

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Good to be here and good to have my classmates, Admiral Kevin Green, on with us.

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Yeah, let me set this up a little bit.

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Both of these gentlemen graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1971.

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And they are both fellows currently with the American College of National Security Leaders.

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And we have them on not because both of them have really interesting military careers.

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We're going to let them describe in brief momentarily, but we really want to talk about

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the North Atlantic Treaty Organization or NATO, which is celebrating its 75th anniversary.

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And they have some viewpoints on that.

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So, Admiral, why don't you give us the thumbnail of your military career?

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Sure.

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Again, graduate of the Naval Academy, I served principally in destroyers during my career

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and rode on that aircraft carriers that see later my career both as a destroyer squadron commander

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and as a battlegroup commander.

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My final military assignment was as the deputy chief of naval operations for plans, policy

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and operations, which brought me very close to NATO, which had been a central thread of

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my career and professional relationships throughout my time in uniform.

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Yeah, it's a fascinating career.

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We could spend the whole time on that.

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And similarly, Captain Lemkin, Bruce, why don't you tell us about your career in the

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nuclear submarine field?

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Sure.

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And again, thank you for having us today.

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I'm an Naval Academy graduate as well as you said.

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I was selected by Admiral Rick over to serve in the nuclear submarine program, served in

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six nuclear submarines, including command of the USS I-MG Rickover, Los Angeles class

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Bass Attack submarine and USS Michigan, then was a Trident ballistic missile submarine.

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All my sure duty was in the Pentagon and a lot of time on the Navy staff as well as the

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joint staff.

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I retired in 1999 and was asked since I had been negotiating with North Korea to lead

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our negotiations on implementing the 1994 Greed framework to dismantle North Korea's

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nuclear weapons program.

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That worked out great.

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And I then came back into government early in the Bush administration and served through

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some of the Obama administration for eight and a half years.

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The last seven years as the Deputy Under Secretary of the Air Force for International Affairs,

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I did a lot of work with NATO during that timeframe.

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And while I had done operational work with NATO, most of which I can't talk about when

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I was a sub-reader, I was involved in a broad array of support for NATO, both policy and

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ensuring that NATO had the interoperable aerospace capabilities to partner with us against common

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threats.

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And we have both of you guys on.

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As I said earlier, you're fellows of the American College of National Security Leaders.

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Admiral, why don't you tell us what that organization is?

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Well, first of all, it's a nonpartisan organization.

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We don't take a partisan political stance on any of the issues we cover, but we take

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advantage of the hundreds and hundreds of years of professional experience on the part

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of our members who are retired generals, admirals, senior defense and State Department officials,

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including quite a number of ambassadors, who are focused on national security and other

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critical issues facing the United States.

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We attend and take part in conferences.

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We do a lot of writing.

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We speak as well.

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And our focus is entirely on the security and future of the United States in what appears

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to be an increasingly dangerous world.

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Yeah, I think everybody would agree that just on the nightly news, you see how things are

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getting more dangerous all around the world, whether it's China or Korea or Russia or Ukraine.

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And that sort of gets us to the central reason we're talking, and that we're approaching

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the 75th anniversary of NATO.

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And both of these gentlemen are big thinkers.

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We're not going to ask them where they graduated at the Naval Academy.

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You know, I'm sure they were one and two or two and three, but in any event, they're

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big thinkers.

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They've got all this great experience.

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Bruce, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about the history of NATO and

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what you see as the value of NATO?

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Yes, thank you.

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So NATO was founded 75 years ago, the wake of the end of World War II.

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And you know, that was such a huge conflict that required a lot of blood, sweat and tears,

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national treasure, however you want to put it.

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And there was a feeling that we needed to ensure this wouldn't happen again.

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Similar to what we said after World War I, the Great War, the war to end all wars, and

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then lo and behold, 20 years later, we were in World War II.

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And the rise of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, the Warsaw Bloc, really provided an

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incentive for European nations to unite for the common defense.

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And of course, US leadership was essential, and this also was in parallel with the Marshall

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Plan where the US did so much to ensure the revival of the economic health of Europe,

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particularly Western Europe.

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The military aspect was very important in NATO, and General Eisenhower was the first

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Supreme Allied commander of Europe, and NATO could enhance the NATO commander.

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And NATO has continued to grow.

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It's continued to demonstrate its relevance and value and evolve and transform as the

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situation in the world has changed, whether it was the demise of the Soviet Union and

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then, of course, some time after that, the rise of another adversarial Russia, and also

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the rise of transnational terrorism and threats throughout the Middle East and actually, of

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course, globally.

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And we are all globally interdependent, whether it's security-wise, defense, economics, etc.

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So NATO has continued to be relevant, as I said, and its relevance today, I would say,

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is probably greater than it ever has been.

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And now we've got 32 members with the accession of Finland and Sweden into the alliance.

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And if we can just go back to 9-11, the attack on the, the terrorist attack on the United

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States in 2001, was the first time that Article 5 of the NATO Charter was implemented.

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An attack on one is an attack on all.

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Again, I think of nothing more illustrative of how effective this alliance is.

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Well, let me jump in there, because I think that's what, you know, people's knowledge

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of history is short, and their, even memory of the current events is pretty limited.

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Admiral, when we look at NATO today and the terrorist threats, talk to us a little bit,

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Kevin, about how valuable it is to have NATO from the viewpoint of the American College

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of National Security Leaders.

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Sure, Jim, let's just begin with a recognition of a central fact.

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The primary mission of NATO is collective defense and deterrence against potential aggression

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against any of its members, wherever those threats occur and exist.

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When we look at the situation, you mentioned Ukraine, and if you live in Eastern or Central

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Europe and you're a neighbor to Ukraine, well, pick a country, pick Poland, for example.

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You find yourself in the role as a first responder in the event that Russia moves further beyond

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the borders of Ukraine.

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Russia, if it should threaten the Baltic states, Poland itself or any of the other countries

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within the NATO alliance, Poland is truly a first responder.

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And how do we back up Poland?

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We back it up with the rest of NATO.

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We back it up logistically with troops, with weapons, with the whole panoply of capabilities

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that the NATO nations provide and carry out.

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We in the United States are far away.

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It takes some time for us to send materials and troops and so forth, if they're not already

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in Europe, to be able to respond in the event that an invasion or a movement further in

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the Western direction takes place.

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But even more crucially is the issue of deterrence.

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It's a message to those who would threaten the NATO nations.

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And that message is NATO is strong, NATO is unified, NATO is ready, NATO is capable, and

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no attack on the alliance is going to succeed.

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That's really what this is all about.

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So, let me bring up a couple of contra issues.

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I suppose you only get little snippets of this on the general news, but at times it

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seems the American leaders complain that everybody in NATO is not carrying their weight in terms

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of contribution, whether it be financial or military resources.

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How do you respond to that kind of comment, Captain Limpkin?

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Yeah, you know, it depends on how you hold the lights and mirrors on that and how you

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interpret that.

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You know, in 2014 NATO established what was really, is an aspirational policy that each

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country strives to commit 2% of its gross defense domestic product for its military.

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Not a price of admission, but again, it's a target.

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And this year, 18 of the 31 NATO members are expected to meet that objective.

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That's a record, but you know, that's just the money aspect.

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Go back to in the wake of 9-11 and Operation Enduring Freedom and the ISAF and the international

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security force that was mustered to deal with the terrorist threat that emanated from Afghanistan.

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Every member of NATO at the time participated and suffered losses.

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So this wasn't, yes, US paid the greatest price, certainly in terms of the human losses.

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That said, this was a collective effort, and just as Ed LaGrine mentioned, about collective

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security, and ultimately that spells deterrence.

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The mission is to ensure we are ready, we are ready collectively as an alliance, and

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that will provide a deterrence against any adversary that would attack a NATO member

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or its interests elsewhere in the world.

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Yeah, and we tend to focus just on things going on in Europe, but there are threats

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all over the world, and being able to work cooperatively with other countries seems extremely

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important, doesn't it, Ed LaGrine?

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Absolutely.

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And when we talk about providing security for member nations of NATO, as an alliance,

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the nation's interests go beyond the military, of course.

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It goes to the ability to travel and trade and communicate across the globe.

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And if there are threats that exist somewhere other than the European landmass or the adjoining

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waters, then absolutely.

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I mean, we had thousands and thousands of NATO troops in Afghanistan.

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We had their capabilities across the span of the military systems programs and capabilities

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that they possessed.

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Not anything new about that, really.

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You know, my initial exposure to NATO was in the summer of 1970 on a West German torpedo

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boat up in the North Sea, and doing NATO's job in a 135-foot boat against the East Germans

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and the Soviets and the Poles.

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And when I would talk with the officers about where are we doing this, the point all those

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years ago was about demonstrating the readiness of NATO, not just the readiness of West Germany,

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but the readiness of NATO to respond to anything that could be perceived as a threat against

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the alliance.

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That point never left my mind.

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Well, Edwell, that requires training and the ability to communicate and cross-country planning.

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I mean, it's really a big issue to get that degree of cooperation, isn't it?

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Absolutely is.

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And that's why we, within the NATO community, we have officer exchange programs.

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The ships that I served on had NATO officers from Italy, from Germany, from other countries

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as well.

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And we fully man our positions on the NATO staff.

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And it is a very smoothly running organization in terms of planning, in terms of political

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considerations, in terms of readiness, and the technical side as well.

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And Captain, it seems to me that you kind of have to look at NATO on the other side of

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the coin.

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Some people say the United States ought to be an isolationist.

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Just worry about your own stuff and not everybody else's involvement.

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But by being in NATO, it's a force multiplier, isn't it, Bruce?

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Well, absolutely.

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And I'm glad you brought this up, because there's, you know, our collective memory sometimes

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is somewhat fuzzy.

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You know, our fathers, certainly my father, fought in World War II in Europe.

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Our grandfathers, both my grandfathers fought in Europe on World War I.

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And then you look at, so are we going to learn those lessons?

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It deters the next war in Europe, which might not start in Europe.

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And if deterrence fails, we will not be fighting alone.

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This also gets to another issue that I've heard people say, or address, or question.

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You know, and I've had people say to me, well, why do we have troops in Germany to defend

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Germany?

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Why can't they defend themselves?

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Well, as part of the alliance, of course, we're working on our interoperability and

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our collective security.

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But there's another aspect.

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We're over there, so the war does not come over here.

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We will deter the conflict in Europe, just as we do in South Korea and Japan and other

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areas of the world.

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So this is, we can't stand alone and survive in what is truly a global world.

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And that's a lesson that we have to keep reminding ourselves of.

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No, I think you're right.

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And you touched on something I'm going to ask the admiral to comment on.

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And that is this idea that a war may start in Europe or may not start in Europe, while

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something's going on over in the Pacific with China and Taiwan or North Korea.

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You need to be able to have defense and deterrence really all around the world if you're in the

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United States.

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How does this come into play as you think about it as related to NATO?

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Well, I will just repeat something that a former chief of naval operations used to

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talk about.

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When asked about the size of the U.S. fleet, he said, well, the fleet of the United States

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and our allies is about a thousand ships altogether.

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The whole notion of fighting alone or deterring alone, probably more importantly, is bankrupt

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today.

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We need to work closely with our allies.

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We need to make sure that they're ready, that we are fully interoperable across every capability

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that we have with regard to intelligence, with regard to equipping, with regard to weapons

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systems, with regard to communications.

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We need to practice together.

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And that's true everywhere in the world.

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There is no better model, however, with regard to peacetime military arraigns than NATO.

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And after all, NATO has been successful for 75 years in doing just that, in deterring

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major combat in Europe that would spread elsewhere.

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We have been somewhat less successful in other parts of the world for lack of other kinds

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of alliances that can be so helpful to us.

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Over time, those alliances and the connections that are made and the bonds that are made,

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not only between the military members, but also the civilian governments, just get stronger

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and stronger, doesn't it, Bruce?

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Absolutely.

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And the ability to communicate, the ability to be interoperable, and interoperability

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is a concept that many people don't understand.

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And that's understandable because it's not something they have to live with.

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It's not about being able to talk to one another if you're flying different aircraft

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or in ships that were manufactured in different places.

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It's about understanding each other, about training together, operating together.

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So if you need to, you can fight together as one.

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And that's what NATO does better than any other arrangement, security arrangement, alliance

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or otherwise.

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Admiral, why don't we wrap up here?

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You're wearing your hat as a fellow of the American College of Natural Security leaders.

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I think Captain Lentking just gave us a good closing remark from his end.

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But I'm going to give you an opportunity to do the same.

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Well, I thank you, Jim, and all I would say is simply to reiterate that we need to be

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very thoughtful about the friends that we make, the friends that we value, all of whom

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have something to contribute to our security.

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Most people can figure out how to fight a fire.

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Most people can figure out how to deter a burglar, let's say.

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But there's nothing like a professional.

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And the professionals of our NATO partners at the scene of where a conflict could erupt

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someday is a warming and reassuring thought.

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We need to be sure that we are the kind of partners that contribute to our joint security,

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to our combined security.

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And understand that it is a very dangerous world.

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It seems to be becoming more dangerous as time goes on.

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We need to think twice before we decide to look away from those kinds of arrangements

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and capabilities that are going to protect us and the lives and futures of our children

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and grandchildren.

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NATO is part of that.

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Well, we really appreciate the time that Vice Admiral Kevin Green and retired and Captain

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Bruce Lemkin retired from the Navy have given us as fellows of the American College

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of National Security leaders to talk about NATO and its 75th anniversary here.

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Gentlemen, thank you for participating with Veterans Radio today.

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Thanks, Jim.

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It's been a pleasure.

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Thank you, Jim.

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Thank you for the great work that you do.

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And we appreciate this opportunity.

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And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today.

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I am Jim Fausone.

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It's been a pleasure to be your host.

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I'm a Veterans Disability lawyer at Legal Help for Veterans.

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And you can reach us at 800-693-4800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web.

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