1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,680 All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio. 2 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:15,780 This is Veterans Radio. 3 00:00:15,780 --> 00:00:17,900 Welcome to Veterans Radio. 4 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:20,600 I am Jim Fossone. 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,920 I'm the officer of the deck today. 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:24,800 We've got some great programs for you. 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,800 I think you'll find very interesting. 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:34,800 We always want to remind you you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,320 or at the web. 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:43,320 VeteransRadio.org is our new URL, VeteransRadio.org. 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,720 Where we're on the web 24-7, you can find a lot of our podcasts there as well. 12 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:55,560 We post new ones every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a new interview, something 13 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,400 you didn't know before by going to VeteransRadio.org. 14 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,600 Before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors. 15 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:13,880 First up, we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org. 16 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:19,560 It was established to certify both service disabled and veteran owned businesses. 17 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:26,120 You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org. 18 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,640 We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans. 19 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:35,140 Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans disability rights all across the nation. 20 00:01:35,140 --> 00:01:45,880 You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at LegalHelpForVeterans.com. 21 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:52,120 We're in the shadow of the Marine Corps' birthday a couple of days ago, and by now they should 22 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,920 be sober again. 23 00:01:53,920 --> 00:02:03,080 So we will do a couple of programs today, interviews that focus on the Marines but have 24 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,880 some of interest to everybody. 25 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,520 Certainly everybody was in Vietnam. 26 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:13,400 We're going to like this first story, getting the real story about the Marine Corps deadliest 27 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,680 sniper in Vietnam. 28 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,720 And then we're going to do something on Camp Lejeune that came out recently, and we turned 29 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,320 to one of our attorney experts to update us on that. 30 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,880 So stick around, both interesting stories for you today. 31 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:37,400 We'd like to welcome to Veterans Radio today Jim Lindsay out in beautiful Oregon, and he's 32 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,280 going to talk to us about a book he wrote, The Sniper, The Untold Story of the Marine 33 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,320 Corps' Greatest Marksman of All Time. 34 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,360 Jim, welcome to Veterans Radio. 35 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,200 Yeah, well thank you. 36 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:50,200 I'm glad to be here. 37 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:51,960 Well, you know, it's an interesting story. 38 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,800 I went and caught my attention, and I got the book and read through it. 39 00:02:54,800 --> 00:03:00,040 I was really excited because I learned something that changed my perspective because I didn't 40 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:08,440 know about Chuck Mowinny, another good Oregon guy and served in Vietnam. 41 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:15,320 Actually, he was in your neck of the woods, but for the longest time, you know, you didn't 42 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,920 know who this guy was or what he had done. 43 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:21,720 Tell us how you came about writing the book. 44 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:29,000 In 1979, my brother and I bought a ranch in Eastern Oregon, we're farmers. 45 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:36,960 So I moved over to Baker City near the farm and we'd bought, and I met Chuck Mowinny. 46 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:43,640 We were pretty young fellas then, and we both liked drinking beer, and there was a tavern 47 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:49,200 called the Idelauer, a kind of mill tavern, and he worked for the Forest Service. 48 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:58,200 And if I was in town about quitting time, maybe getting parts somewhere, I'd stop there 49 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,760 and have beers with him. 50 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,640 He's just a great guy to socialize with. 51 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:12,400 But he had grown up in rural Oregon, always was outside kind of guy, you know, all his 52 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:18,880 buddies in the neighborhood had BB guns and were shooters, if you will. 53 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:26,200 So when he got into the Marine Corps, he kind of was looking at Camp Pendleton to move his 54 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:32,840 way over to Scout Sniper School, and he was able to do that, wasn't he? 55 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:38,320 Yeah, it was kind of like things happened to people's lives. 56 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,080 It was accidental. 57 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:48,840 He joined the Marines right out of high school in 1967, and they sent him to Camp Pendleton 58 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:51,000 for his basic training. 59 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,760 He wanted to be a Navigator. 60 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,480 He wanted to fly for the Marines. 61 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:11,120 So the night before the test he was to take for aviation training, him and another two 62 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:18,480 guys went out and did the town up, and he woke up in a movie theater at five o'clock 63 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:19,480 in the morning. 64 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,560 I mean, they really did a good job. 65 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,680 So he didn't do very well in the test. 66 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:34,240 So he was going to have to wait around for another month, and they had him washing dishes. 67 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:42,360 In the meantime, the Scout Sniper School opened, and that caught his eye because he loved shooting, 68 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,480 liked hunting, that sort of thing. 69 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:51,520 So he signed up for that, and so that changed his life right there, and no one knew, including 70 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:57,760 him, that he would be the best of the best before it was over. 71 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:04,120 Well, and you talk about how life doesn't always go as you planned or as unplanned. 72 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,840 He got into Cypress School. 73 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:12,160 He graduated the top of the class, and they said, great, you're going to Da Nang off the 74 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,800 Vietnam young man, May of 1968. 75 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,400 He gets over there, and what assignments do they give him? 76 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:30,040 Oh, it was heartbreaking for Chuck, because getting on that plane, he was one person, 77 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:36,440 but getting off in Vietnam, the cards had changed. 78 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:44,040 They just heard him off the tarmac there like a bunch of cattle, and he ended up in a just 79 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,920 regular marine outfit as a grunt. 80 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:54,880 He did speak up about it, but they weren't looking for snipers, they were looking for 81 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:05,960 just regular ground pounders, and so he ended up in an outfit, a garbage bridge up north, 82 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:13,600 and it was pretty quiet, and he was there for a few weeks, and then they moved himself 83 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:22,240 back down just west of Da Nang, and there was big battles going on there, and that's 84 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:33,120 when he got, he was in an outfit, and they were under fire, and he witnessed a guy next 85 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:42,960 to him, he was a machine gunner, and then Chuck started helping his helper, and he got 86 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:49,200 shot, and then Chuck got the machine gun, and he knew if something didn't change, he 87 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:57,080 wasn't going to make it home, and so he was able to finagle around and get into an outfit 88 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:05,200 that had a sniper platoon, and that was about 20 miles west of Da Nang, in a place called 89 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,200 An Hoa. 90 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:12,160 And he knew that the machine gunners were very vulnerable, obviously the enemy wanted 91 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:20,520 to take them out, and he had trained and proven himself that he could be a sniper, he had, 92 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:26,640 it was an excellent shot, but again, any of us who have served the military knows better 93 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,600 than you, so they started, well you're a grunt, well now you're running the machine gun, and 94 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:38,800 he knew he would be better off on his own, protecting other Marines as a sniper, and 95 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:46,720 he kind of forced his way into, as I read the story, the sniper by Jim Lindsay, he kind 96 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:53,200 of forced his way into that sniper group by first being a scout, and then if you will 97 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:59,480 moving up the ladder to a sniper where he was obviously extremely effective, but it 98 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:09,880 really was sort of not as planned as maybe that Chuck thought it was going to be on his 99 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,240 way over, did he? 100 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:13,720 No. 101 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:21,560 Chuck Owini is a special individual, this book starts when he's just a child, and you 102 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:31,480 can see him and I both wanted to, we both wanted it to start early in his life, so that 103 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:41,520 the people who read it, the reader would find out what kind of a person turns into a successful 104 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,480 sniper like he was. 105 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:55,720 So he was really well, he had the ability to talk himself into some pretty neat situations 106 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:02,640 in his life, and he got a job at the four dealership in Lakeview when he was just 15, 107 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:09,240 and a great job for a kid, and he got his own pilot's license when he was still in 108 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:17,320 high school, and he was just amazing, and so when he got that predicament, he handled 109 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:28,280 it well, he faked a toothache and he got into back into Dundoo and Waugh and was able to 110 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:36,320 talk to the boys, to learn about becoming a sniper, and when they found out his record 111 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:43,000 he got to be a spotter for another fellow, and there he was, and that's how it started. 112 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:50,960 Yeah, and it is a good way to introduce people to what it takes to be a sniper, because these 113 00:10:50,960 --> 00:11:01,560 are regular guys who have extraordinary skills in this area of patience, breathing, reading 114 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:07,480 all the signs that you need to read as a sniper or as a spotter, because you're out there 115 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:15,000 all alone, you may be shooting a long distance, but to be an expert marksman, you've got 116 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,920 to have a lot of additional skills, don't you? 117 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:28,480 Yeah, all this was new to me, I learned so much about talking to Chuck about how it worked, 118 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:36,920 and he was real patient with me, I forget what he'd tell me, and we met over a dozen 119 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:43,280 times and he lived 400 miles from me, or he does, in fact as I talked to him this morning, 120 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:53,760 and he taught me what it was to be a sniper, and one of the most important things is to 121 00:11:53,760 --> 00:12:00,360 know where you're at at all times, and when he went through sniper school they had a lot 122 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:09,400 of training on being out in the absolute darkness and know where you're at, and so he was really 123 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:15,480 handy for some of the outfits that would, they kind of borrowed me, he was kind of like 124 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,520 a gun for hire, him and his spotter, they were always together, and of course there 125 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,280 were multiple spotters that came and went, and most of them got to be snipers of their 126 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:35,280 own, and he would go out with an outfit, and they used him pretty hard as far as he was 127 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,720 about his ability to know where he was. 128 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:44,120 That's situational awareness comes through right in the book, and it's one of those intangibles 129 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:50,480 you get to talk about, you have to have a real backbone and discipline and patience, 130 00:12:50,480 --> 00:13:00,040 but that situational awareness saved him more than once in Vietnam, and he had some pretty 131 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:06,880 amazing kills, but you kind of lose the essence of the man if you just focus on the kills, 132 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:14,400 because he also struggled with the commandment thou shalt not kill, and he struggled with 133 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,960 when he came home after his first tour, he kind of didn't, he knew he didn't fit in anymore, 134 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:27,000 so there's a lot of stuff bubbling in the pot of Chuck Mowinny as he's going through 135 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:34,120 living this about two year period where he's becoming this top sniper, how does he reflect 136 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,800 on all that turmoil that was going on in his head? 137 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:45,320 You know, calmly. 138 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,160 He's a, fortunately for him, he's a person that can handle things like that, and a lot 139 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:56,840 of it I think was probably the way he was raised, his dad was a Marine, but he wasn't 140 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:02,400 raised to be a killer, but he was raised to do a good job of whatever he was going to 141 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:11,040 do, and that was his job was to protect and save other Marines lives, and that's how 142 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,760 he justified it. 143 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:27,680 Right before he made his first kill, he saw a Marine killed out in a field, and the NVA 144 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:34,320 had walked into this NVA outfit and it was kind of an ambush, and this fellow out in 145 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:41,840 the front, he was pinned down out in the field, and it was awful, they didn't kill him fast, 146 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:49,040 it was hard on Chuck, and so then it wasn't long, and then he was doing the shooting, 147 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:55,520 and that's, he became kind of bitter when he saw what they did to his fellow Marine, 148 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:02,840 so that helped, and then after the first one, and then it was, he just did his job, and 149 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,360 he was awful good at it. 150 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:12,240 Yeah, the story that you've written, the sniper on Chuck Mowinny, Marine Sniper in Vietnam, 151 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:23,520 really gets across this idea that in his psyche, every kill that he's making is saving countless 152 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,760 Marines, and that's his job. 153 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,720 You said one of the things his upbringing was, if you got a job, do it well. 154 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:38,040 He understood his job was to protect these other Marines, and as a result kept doing 155 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:46,080 his job as a sniper for the, actually I think he did three tours, didn't he over in Vietnam? 156 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:53,560 Yeah, he did the first one in the Marine Corps 13 months, the first tour, and that's when 157 00:15:53,560 --> 00:16:02,760 he went home and you mentioned that his friends were still just kids, and he couldn't, he 158 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:08,520 saw right away that they didn't have any clue, or didn't understand, and the Vietnam war 159 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:14,680 was different than all other wars where they didn't really want to know, and so I think 160 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:22,320 maybe that might have been why he never told anybody until he was outed by another author 161 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:34,960 later on, but he was home, and he just wasn't welcomed by his peers, even the grownups around 162 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,920 town, they kind of looked the other way, and of course his family, he spent a lot of time 163 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,760 with his family during that month, and then he decided that his real friends, the real 164 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:54,920 people that he could depend on were back in Vietnam, so he went back and did another tour 165 00:16:54,920 --> 00:17:07,840 where he finished out with his 103 kills, and so he went home again and signed up for 166 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:14,280 a third tour, but he realized that they wouldn't let him be a sniper for another tour, I guess 167 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:22,520 two tours was a max, and he wanted to be a helicopter side gunner, and he got back over 168 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:30,040 there and they wouldn't let him do that, so he became kind of a placement, and he did 169 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:38,520 a good job of that, that wasn't his deal, but then he got the last one, then he went 170 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:49,480 back to San Diego, and he was a cook, until somebody noticed who he was, and then he got 171 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,880 to be a rifle instructor, and then he liked that. 172 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:58,200 Well, again, the military always thinks he knows what he's doing best, they take an expert 173 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:08,280 marksman and make him cook just crazy, but one of the stories in the book is about Valentine's 174 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:15,920 Day in 1969, which really was a real test for Chuck Mowenny, can you talk about that 175 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,920 a little bit? 176 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:27,680 Yeah, that's probably the one advance that he's most known for, and he'd been there a 177 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:34,800 while, and he had been, I think it was just right into his second tour, he was out with 178 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:46,520 a company of Marines, one that he worked for fairly often, his CO was Mike Wiley, and it 179 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:57,960 was during a storm was coming in, and they were dug in at a perimeter, and there was 180 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:05,080 a little airplane come flying over, like a Piper Cub, American plane, and the guy radioed 181 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:11,520 down to him said that there was a battalion of NVA across the river, and he was afraid 182 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:20,320 they were going to cross, and so single handedly, Chuck Mowenny, after dark with a starlight 183 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:28,320 scope and his spotter with him, stopped it from happening, and it was just an amazing 184 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:36,240 feat that what he did, and they've tried to, shooters have tried since then, he shot 16 185 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:43,360 NVA in 30 seconds, this was according to the spotter, and it turned, they discouraged 186 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:52,000 him, and they never tried to cross again, and they've tried to set up games where people 187 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:59,840 have tried doing this, and nobody can do it, they have 16 targets that popped up, and it 188 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:06,760 was really an amazing thing that he was, I don't know how many Marines he saved, because 189 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,840 they, they had to cross that river, they went right over those Marines. 190 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:20,040 Yeah, yeah, and as you write in the book, The Sniper, and we're talking to Jim Lindsay, 191 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:27,960 it is again some of that situational awareness, after the plane radioed down, he knew right 192 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:35,320 where to go, where to find his, find a hide that was the right spot to stop them crossing 193 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:41,480 the river and overrunning the, the Marines that he was with, and again being able to, 194 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:49,440 you know, knock down 16 NVA in such a short time, sort of this amazing feat, but it's 195 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,920 all those other things too, it's all that, those intangibles having the right heartbeat, 196 00:20:54,920 --> 00:21:02,600 using pattern, calmness, patience, situational awareness, it's really an amazing feat that 197 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,960 I don't think most of us do are, our adrenaline and our heartbeat would be going crazy, wouldn't 198 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:08,960 it? 199 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:18,520 Yeah, yeah, you might just, one of the, there was a guy came across, a guide, and stood right 200 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:24,840 beside Chuck, this was in the dark, and Chuck says, he was so close to me, I could hear 201 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:30,920 water dripping off of him, and he wasn't going to let him get past him, he was about ready 202 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:36,760 to dispatch him, and the guy turned around and went back across, and then it was just 203 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:44,320 a few minutes before they all came, or started across, but yeah, he was, he was pretty cool 204 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,800 about things. 205 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,800 Yeah, cool, that's true. 206 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,480 Yeah, that's an understatement. 207 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:57,640 Now I want to talk a little bit about, because Chuck only stayed in for a couple of years, 208 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,800 got out of the Marine Corps, came back to Oregon, and went into the Forest Service, and 209 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,720 completed his whole professional career, I think, in the US Forest Service, they had 210 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:15,560 a family, kids, the whole thing, which again is this sort of like, okay, I close that chapter 211 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:20,280 of the book, I'm not bragging about it, I'm not telling anybody about it, and you kind 212 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:26,800 of stumble on it, and only because you were really friends, was he willing to open up 213 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:33,160 and help tell the story, and have the book written, if I understand it right. 214 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:42,560 Yeah, that is, he actually did go, they were, he was in Vietnam when they were starting 215 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:48,040 to slow down, and he got out early because of that. 216 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:55,920 And then he went back to Lakeview, and started his next part of chapter in his life, and 217 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:03,120 with his credentials as being a Marine, helped him get on with the US Forest Service, and 218 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:08,080 so then right away they were moving him from here to there, and just like everything else 219 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:14,720 he ever did in his life, he excelled at it, and he became a machinery operator, built 220 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:20,640 the roads and that sort of thing, and it wasn't very long, and he was the boss. 221 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:29,440 So at first, or not gradually, he had some trouble, and he didn't know what it was, 222 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:36,720 you know, it was terrible, I mean, you talk about going from a high, of what he was doing 223 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,480 over there for two years, down to driving a bulldozer. 224 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,240 Right, right, yeah. 225 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,680 And he didn't tell anybody because he knew there was nobody that would ever understand, 226 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:56,800 except for another sniper, and he didn't go around with a sign looking for one, and so 227 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:06,320 there was some turmoil going on inside of him, and he became a heavy drinker, and not 228 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:12,400 like I think of an alcoholic, but I mean he was hit the tavern after work every day, and 229 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:20,320 sometimes pretty late, and it was, some things were bothering him, and I don't think he, 230 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:26,760 I don't even know for sure if he really knew it, but he lived right on the edge until he 231 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:36,840 met a gal, and that was another Forest Service worker, and her name was Robin Hood, she was 232 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:46,040 a few years younger, and they hit it off, and so they had a family, three nice boys, 233 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:52,240 and they're all doing fine, and she kind of helped him come out of it, I don't even know 234 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,080 if she wouldn't, well she didn't even know it, he didn't tell her about it either, and 235 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:05,160 the only way it happened to come out is his last father, Joseph Ward, wrote a book called 236 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:13,040 Dear Mom, and that was the outing, that was the, you mentioned it earlier that Chuck kind 237 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:21,240 of got outed, and it got confirmed that he had 103 confirmed kills, another 216 probable 238 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:29,120 kills, and a confirmed kill required an officer to see it occur, and be ridden up, and that 239 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:39,240 outed him as the highest sniper marksman number, while most of the world for a long time thought 240 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:46,280 it was Carlos Hatchcock, who had 93 kills, a good Arkansas boy who did a 20 year career 241 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:54,400 in the Marine Corps, and Chuck must have just been happy to let Hatchcock have the glory, 242 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,840 and he'd just stay out of it and keep a low profile, and that's one of the things that 243 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:06,080 caught my interest in your book, The Sniper by Jim Lindsay, it's the untold story of the 244 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:11,880 Chuck Mowinny, the Marine Corps' greatest marksman of all time, because I knew the Hatchcock 245 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,720 story, I'd never heard the story on Chuck Mowinny. 246 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:27,280 Yeah, it surprised everybody, and Chuck was, he wasn't really ready for it, he came out 247 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:34,720 and then all of a sudden he was interviewed by, like I think the LA Times, and it wasn't, 248 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,040 it was no way he was going to stop it, you know, it was out of the bottle then, and so 249 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:46,520 he, in fact, he had quite a time with it, some of his friends kind of got cold, and 250 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:54,320 he didn't know why, and it was a, and at the time it happened, I was over in Eastern Oregon 251 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,080 for 20 years running this ranch, and then, then my parents and family, they were getting 252 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,160 everybody's getting over, so I kind of wanted to come back, and so I come back, and my brother 253 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:09,120 and I are partners, and we're raising, we raise grass seed here for lawns and pastures, 254 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:14,840 that sort of thing, and so I came back on the west side, and one evening I was sitting 255 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:21,240 there watching TV, and there was Chuck Mowinny, and it was on the History Channel or something, 256 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,400 and it was him, and I couldn't hardly believe it, and I, he'd been there talking about all 257 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:32,880 the stuff he did, and I thought, my gosh, I just had no idea, so I called him up, and 258 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:38,160 by that time I had been writing books, and he knew, and you remember me, everything, 259 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,080 so we talked about the whole, and I said, you know, somebody ought to write about you, 260 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,200 and I went over and talked, or went over to visit the state all night in their house and 261 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,600 everything, and they, so I had to go, yeah, let's do this. 262 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,240 Well, it's important for a lot of reasons to get history out in the records out, that's 263 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:01,000 why we've been doing Veterans Radio for 20 years now, telling veteran stories. I thought 264 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:06,200 the article in the Los Angeles Times that was written, the headline captured it, I thought, 265 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:12,880 a sniper at peace with his duties, and I really think that captured Chuck's ultimate position 266 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:19,280 here. I'm not surprised to hear that when he got back, you know, he had difficulties 267 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:24,520 and turmoil in his own head, and drinking maybe more than he should have, I think everybody 268 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:30,480 did come back and have years and years of transition to get comfortable with the Vietnam 269 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,320 War, and I'm not even sure we're comfortable with it today, but your book does a great 270 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:41,520 job, it's an easy read, I really tell people that if you want to know about the greatest 271 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:50,400 Marine Sniper, this is the true story. Jim, where can they find the book? 272 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:56,840 You can get it, of course, online, you know, Amazon, there's several different outfits 273 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:04,320 you can order it from, it's in the major bookstores, and even some small ones, but 274 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:10,920 you can get it at the New York City Airport. There you go, it's everywhere. 275 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:17,840 There's a thrill for my, as a lady here in Corralis, Oregon, she's my editor, she's 276 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:25,360 about my age, and this has been a real thrill for her too, as of me, the book has been so 277 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:31,520 well received, and I'm happy for Chuck, and so as she was on a little trip and went through 278 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:37,360 the airport there, and there was the book, she was involved so much, and I'm really 279 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,840 tickled her, but so you can get it anywhere, I... 280 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,880 No, it's a good read, I encourage folks to do it, and Jim Lindsay, I appreciate you taking 281 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:50,440 some time with Veterans Radio today, and certainly pass along to Chuck Mowinny, our thanks for 282 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:57,440 what he did to save all kinds, untold numbers of Marines back in the day in Vietnam, so 283 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,840 Jim, thanks for your time today. 284 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:05,480 Well, thanks for having me on here, I really appreciate it, you're doing, you got a nice 285 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,880 deal here, and you do a good job of it. 286 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:14,480 Thank you. So now you know who the deadliest sniper was in the Marine Corps, not one who 287 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,840 got the most publicity, maybe, but now he's getting his due. Stick around, listen to a 288 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,040 couple of words from our sponsors, and then we're going to talk some more about, uh, 289 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:50,040 the taxic water at Camp Lejeune and some opportunities for those who were exposed to be compensated. 290 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:57,040 Learn how you can be there for veterans. Visit veteranscrisisline.net. Veteranscrisisline.net. 291 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,280 A message from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. 292 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,040 If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal Health 293 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:11,640 for Veterans at 1-800-693-4800. They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of 294 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,080 Appeals for Veterans Claims. Their number again, 1-800-693-4800. 295 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:23,320 We want to welcome back to Veterans Radio, one of our go-to experts, Attorney Catherine 296 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,520 Groll. Catherine, welcome back to Veterans Radio. 297 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,320 Thank you, Jim. It's good to be here. 298 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,360 Well, we've had you on a couple of times, and we had Mike Cox, you're with the, you're 299 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:41,440 a partner at the Mike Cox Law Firm. On before, Mike is a Marine, was the Attorney General 300 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,000 for the State of Michigan, and now in private practice, and one of the things you guys are 301 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:53,920 doing is working on these Camp Lejeune federal lawsuit that kind of got created out of the 302 00:31:53,920 --> 00:32:00,160 Camp Lejeune Justice Act. So we've had you to talk about the act in general and the timeframe. 303 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,880 Why don't you remind everybody what the act allows Marines who were at Camp Lejeune to 304 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,520 do and what the timing is on that? 305 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:15,680 Absolutely. The PACT Act was a, I call it an umbrella statute legislation that was designed 306 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:22,080 to figure out some compensation for all of the toxic exposures that the various veterans 307 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:27,440 have been exposed to throughout the years all over the world. One section of that has 308 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:37,240 to do with all of the Marines that were in Camp Lejeune from August of 1953 through December 309 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:44,960 of 1987, and may have been exposed to a variety of horrific chemicals in the water table there 310 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:51,960 that have led to a number of terrifying illnesses and diseases for which they may qualify. The 311 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:58,120 PACT Act allows you to bring an administrative claim with the Department of Navy within the 312 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:04,560 two year period from when the legislation was signed, which was August 10th of 2022, 313 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:10,880 and you have until August 10th of 2024 to apply to the Navy for an administrative claim 314 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:17,760 relating to your illness and disease criteria. After that six month administrative period, 315 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:24,120 you are entitled to go to the litigation component of it, which is run by the Department of Justice, 316 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,360 and that's in North Carolina by statute. Those judges in the federal court will be 317 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,520 in control of what happens there. 318 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,600 And what's so significant also is that typically you can't sue the, if you're in the military, 319 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,840 you can't sue them for nothing. And so this created this opportunity in North Carolina 320 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:51,360 for this specific set of exposures over that period of time. And I read somewhere, Catherine, 321 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,040 that something like a thousand, over a thousand individual federal lawsuits have been already 322 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,040 filed. 323 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,720 1100 as of yesterday. 324 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:05,480 Okay. And on the administrative side, which is kind of a step towards, if you don't resolve 325 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,440 it there, then you can file in litigation down in North Carolina. Something like maybe 326 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,600 90,000 administrative claims. Is that kind of the number? 327 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,520 93,000 as of yesterday. 328 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:24,480 So you know, there's a lot of men and women who are involved in this. Some family members 329 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,360 also have some rights, as I understand it. 330 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,800 Family members do as well as the civilian employees who are employed on the base and 331 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,200 provided administrative services in support of the Marines. 332 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:43,120 So this is really pretty comprehensive. And if you pass through Camp Lejeune, it's probably 333 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,400 something you ought to be thinking about. But as I said, we've had my cox on before. 334 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,320 We've had Catherine Grohl here on before, but there's a new wrinkle, if you will, a 335 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,600 new opportunity to discuss kind of what's going on. And it's, you sent this over to 336 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,800 me and I read the issued public guidance on elective option for Camp Lejeune Justice 337 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:10,960 Act claims. And as I'm reading this, I said, no, nobody other than a Philadelphia lawyer 338 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,840 is going to be able to figure this out. Who the heck dreamed this up? 339 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,640 It's pretty dense reading, isn't it? 340 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,720 It is. It is. So I thought, well, I'm going to get one of the experts on to talk about 341 00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:27,200 kind of what was behind this. And it's hot off the press, if you will. I don't, probably 342 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,360 nobody's gone through it yet, but talk to us about this new public guidance and elective 343 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:33,360 option. 344 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:41,400 Well, I think one of the biggest things that we should recognize is that finally we do 345 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:48,000 have an acknowledgement from the United States government that they have responsibility for 346 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:55,640 what took place on Camp Lejeune and they're going to have to value it and pay and compensate 347 00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:01,080 those people who were damaged. So we have at least an acknowledgement from them that 348 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:09,560 that is not a dispute, those things. What has happened is that the Department of Navy with 349 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:16,160 these 93,000 cases has not made a single settlement offer. And when we went to the hearing in 350 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:23,520 North Carolina, the head judge of the North Carolina Eastern District Court made it very 351 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:29,440 clear that they expected offers immediately to be made because he wanted the money in 352 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:35,680 the hands of the vets and he could not understand why all this time had passed a year already 353 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,120 and the Navy had not made a single offer. So this is partly in response to the judges 354 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,600 being angry that nothing had been done yet. So that's the first thing that I think everyone 355 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:53,240 needs to understand is that the judges are adamant that things start moving in a much 356 00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,760 quicker pace to get money into the hands of the vets. 357 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:03,120 Well, if you don't, otherwise everybody just suffers with these diseases and dies. I mean, 358 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:09,080 you know, it took an act of Congress for this to get looked at and I'm not too surprised 359 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,640 the Navy, which probably didn't have enough lawyers to deal with this problem when they 360 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:19,640 got dumped, what will be 100,000 plus claims on them, they had to say, well, Jesus, is 361 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,520 there any model we can use to try to find our way through this because we can't try 362 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,760 a thousand or 10,000 or 100,000 of these claims? 363 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:34,200 Right. I think truthfully, they were caught off guard. They weren't prepared economically 364 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:40,320 in terms of staffing or economically in terms of the high level of technology that they 365 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,640 would need so that proofs could be submitted with the claims. They don't have sufficient 366 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:51,640 portals and they're not capable of taking in all of the data. So they're behind 10 months, 367 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,200 even just even in processing any of the claims that have been submitted. 368 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:03,520 Well, this 10 page public guidance on an elective option is a pretty dense reading and 369 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:09,160 I talked to us what they thought they were doing in terms of setting up this elective 370 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,400 option grid and process. 371 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:18,960 So the idea was to allow all of the vets who meet a certain level of criteria, what's 372 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:26,240 called an early out or elective option, and meeting certain criteria that is not in the 373 00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:33,480 statute, they could get quicker compensation. But the more Mike and I dug into this, we 374 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:39,280 realized that there's so many landmines and roadblocks built into what you would have 375 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:47,800 to do to get to these settlement proposals that they're making to even get an offer. 376 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:53,640 So that's one of the things I wanted to comment on. This elective option, if you say, yeah, 377 00:38:53,640 --> 00:39:00,760 I want to do that, it doesn't commit them to settle with you, does it? 378 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:08,640 No, it does not. It is not an offer, it's a proposal for an offer, very different. You 379 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,680 can't just say, okay, I'm in, and you're going to get, they're going to write a check in 380 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:20,320 60 days. There are about 22, I think, hoops we counted that you're going to need to jump 381 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,240 through to see if you can even get to that point. 382 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:28,240 Well, one of the things that they tried to do, and this is typical, you sort of try 383 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:37,280 to make things very objective versus subjective, hey, how long were you at Camp Lejeune? Was 384 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:43,320 it a 30 to one year exposure, one year to five, more than five? So one of the things they 385 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:50,280 do is break it into length of time, and then they also break it into what they called Tier 386 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:55,960 1 qualifying injuries and Tier 2 qualifying injuries, which I thought was kind of an interesting 387 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,360 approach. Could you explain that a little bit? 388 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:04,320 Yes, and one of the things I want to make sure your audience understands is that this 389 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:10,000 proposal is not in accord with the statute. The statute does not require any of these 390 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:16,000 time frames. It doesn't break illnesses down into categories. There's no references to 391 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,660 any of this in the statute. This is something that the Department of Navy and Justice came 392 00:40:20,660 --> 00:40:26,840 up with on their own that is just for this particular administrative process. So one 393 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:34,280 of the things that they did was they reduced the number of illnesses that qualify in this 394 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:41,400 elective option. They not only reduced them, but they also decided to create a stratus 395 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:47,560 of what they considered to be a higher level injury versus a lower level injury. We have 396 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:54,400 no idea what they're using to make those categorizations. It's not disclosed to us. 397 00:40:54,400 --> 00:41:02,480 So actually that's one of the things they found kind of offensive here. They decided 398 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:09,560 that take your pick here, liver cancer, kidney cancer, or bladder cancer were tier 1's and 399 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:16,640 that Parkinson's disease and kidney disease were tier 2. And if you know anybody suffering 400 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,840 from Parkinson's disease, it's horrible on not only them, but the whole family for a 401 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:27,480 really long period of time. You just raised what we think is one of the most significant 402 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:34,680 and important points. Pain and suffering is what we are asking our vets to be compensated 403 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:41,240 for. Putting these numbers on how long you were there and what your illnesses does not 404 00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:49,280 in any way take into the individual's struggles, their family issues, the loss of quality of 405 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:55,000 life for anybody. It lumps everybody into group. I'm just going to give you an example. 406 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:02,320 We have a client that had liver cancer. He treated for 4-8 weeks. His tumors were removed 407 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:08,960 and he's going on to live a healthy and productive life. We've had other people that went through 408 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:16,000 chemotherapy and radiation therapy and died in 3 years, a long, slow death. And yet they're 409 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:23,120 valued at the same, but the one who died is going to get $100,000 more. Which Mike feels 410 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,160 like, if that's what you're telling us, a marine's life is worth, you better rethink 411 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,160 your position. 412 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:40,240 They're proposing to offer settlements that range from $100,000 to $450,000. Maybe you 413 00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:47,800 throw on another $100,000 if you actually died from that injury. The maximum offers $550,000 414 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:48,800 per veteran. 415 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:54,520 I was a little so. I know it's an offer without really teeth in it and I'll tell you why. 416 00:42:54,520 --> 00:43:00,160 Almost every one of the clients has been there less in the year. Camp Lejeune is a training 417 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:06,960 base. Typically, most vets are rotated in and out for a series of months for training 418 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,960 and then they're sent overseas or to another duty station. So the majority of people are 419 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:17,200 probably less than one year of exposure. In order to get to the one to the five years 420 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,800 of exposure, and here's another example. We have a client that was there for a year and 421 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:28,000 two weeks. Well, the Navy requires that we remove his annual leave. So once we take out 422 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:34,120 his 30 days of annual leave, guess what? He doesn't make the one to five years exposure. 423 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:39,240 So finding someone that makes five years or over, that was stationed at Camp Lejeune is 424 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:44,120 almost impossible to find. It's very rare that someone would stay there for a period 425 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:51,240 of five years or longer. So that higher number is not really reflective of the majority of 426 00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:58,000 people who could even get that. It also rang for me a little bit and I didn't 427 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:05,440 research this, I'm sure others have. But there had to be a greater approach for the victims 428 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:12,760 of 9-11 who the firefighters and first responders and other sort of catastrophes where the government 429 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,920 has said, hey, yeah, that's our fault, we're going to pay you for some. This just doesn't 430 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:23,040 seem like it matches up to those other things. Is my general feeling right or wrong? 431 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:29,720 It's right because one of the other concerns that we have is the limitation of 35 years. 432 00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:35,440 If it's 35 years past the last date that you were at Camp Lejeune where you get diagnosed 433 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:41,800 and treated for some of these diseases, you're not covered under this proposal. Now, again, 434 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:47,480 that's not in the statute that it has to be manifest itself within 35 years. And the litigation 435 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:53,360 side of things, there's no limitations on that. If you have a direct link and we've 436 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:58,440 got VA disability statements and we've got doctors writing letters connecting the dots 437 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:04,040 between the illness and the exposure, regardless of how many years ago it was, you've just 438 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,080 routed out a whole group of people who are never going to be eligible. 439 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:17,080 A lot of times the government issues these in federal register and they solicit comments 440 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:23,040 on them and then the rules might change. This isn't really a rule, it's a guidance. But 441 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:30,280 is there a process that they've encouraged for the Navy and DOJ to say, okay, we're putting 442 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,360 this out here, but tell us what we got right and what we got wrong? Or is this a, hey, 443 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:42,120 this is our position, move on. This is not subject to discussion. And you know, one 444 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:48,400 of the things that Mike was concerned about is the way it was done. Typically, if there's 445 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,720 a legitimate offer being conveyed, it's conveyed through the attorney to their client. You 446 00:45:53,720 --> 00:46:00,840 don't publish it on a public website for everybody to see and run big numbers past them 447 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,920 to where that's what they're seeing and hearing. And then when they get into the fine tooth 448 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:13,000 details of 11 pages of qualifying factors to even get to this money. So it was kind 449 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:18,320 of a misrepresentation in the way they did it and they circumvented every attorney having 450 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,120 a meaningful conversation with their client about this. 451 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,560 Was this doesn't seem like it was designed to get a bunch of settlements as much as designed 452 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,160 to say maybe to the court, well, we did something. 453 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:36,600 I agreed. I agreed. Just as an example, if you met all of the qualifying conditions and 454 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:42,720 your illness manifested itself in the timeframe that they asked you for, I still can't get 455 00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:49,840 you a proposal or an offer because they are demanding that I get certified original records 456 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:56,840 signed by a doctor certifying that they're original. I can't do that. Many of these records 457 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:03,200 are destroyed. Some of them are on microfilm that we had to get. We had to hire a retrieval 458 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,680 company to go into all these doctors offices to get copies of records. They're not originals. 459 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:14,920 They're copies and you have to have the original to apply for this proposal. We can't do that. 460 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,920 We don't have the ability to do that and people are going to get left out that way. Another 461 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:24,800 concern is if you have two diseases, which many of our guys do, they've got chronic kidney 462 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:30,600 disease and Parkinson's or chronic kidney disease and pancreatic cancer, they only get 463 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:36,600 to apply for one level, not both. In the 9-11 model that you were talking about, a point 464 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:43,480 system is ascribed as settlement grids created so that there's value given to every facet 465 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:51,320 of your life that adds up to a total sum. That part's going to be navigated in the litigation, 466 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:57,040 but the administrative claim part is not looking at those important factors at all. 467 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:07,680 I really think that in many regards, knowing how normal civilians operate, not lawyers, 468 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,760 but they're going to go over to the far right-hand side and say, well, I could use a half million 469 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:19,920 dollars right now. I'll take that without really understanding that that's not really 470 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:25,280 what's being offered here, is it? It's really not. All that's being offered 471 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:35,000 here is the possibility for you to file a claim if you meet the 22 guiding characteristics 472 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:40,440 that the Navy has set up. They also have a number of frequently asked 473 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:47,720 questions, which again is a standard government issue thing and ask, what if I decline the 474 00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:53,240 settlement, what happens and why only these nine diseases? 475 00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:58,080 Well, the other thing is too, is they have a caveat in here that they can withdraw or 476 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:06,320 change this at any time they choose. It's not like what a standard offer and settlement 477 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:11,280 would be. When you have a standard offer and settlement, both parties are engaging in good 478 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:18,760 faith and trying to actively come to a resolution that meets both needs. This isn't that. This 479 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:24,440 is, we're giving you an opportunity to get an early out if you meet all these criteria, 480 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:29,080 if you don't move on to the North Carolina litigation. This is where the judges were 481 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,280 concerned. They kept saying, why do we have an administrative 482 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,760 process if you're not doing anything during the administrative process? You've got all 483 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,120 these claims for six months and you're doing nothing with them except dumping them over 484 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:47,520 here on to the North Carolina court system. Well, that's what they've done. Even if someone 485 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,840 wanted to apply now, it's going to be two years before the Navy is going to be able 486 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:56,800 to get to their claim because they're still so far behind on the ones that were submitted 487 00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,640 without asking for the offer. 488 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:06,400 It, as I said, these frequently asked questions also hit on one issue that I know many veterans 489 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,160 we've talked to about this and we don't handle these kind of case cases. We leave it to experts 490 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:18,240 like Mike Cox and Catherine Grohl. Will accepting an EO offer affect my VA benefits? 491 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:19,240 Right. 492 00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:24,440 And then they say, no, accepting an EO offer for a CLJA claim will not affect the claimant's 493 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:30,120 VA benefits. Is there hidden in that answer? But if you don't accept this, you don't know 494 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,680 what will happen. 495 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:40,360 There is. They're suggesting now the VA has published on its website that it is statutorily 496 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:46,440 prohibited from collecting money from the United States government to compensate it 497 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:54,880 for disability claims. So that's been on their website since the Camp Lejeune cases started. 498 00:50:54,880 --> 00:51:01,920 The suggestion here from this document is that if you take this early out, you're not 499 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:07,040 going to have to worry about your VA disability. But if you don't, we can't promise that the 500 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:11,360 VA is not going to come after you and reduce your benefits. Now, that would be interesting 501 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:16,960 because the VA and its representatives have been telling all of the Camp Lejeune vets 502 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:23,160 that they're not going to have to pay it back. So that's a little bit of a twisted idea 503 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,480 in there that I don't know is accurate. 504 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:30,320 Yeah. I was really disappointed to read that answer to that frequently asked questions 505 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:36,760 because it was designed to intimidate that. Well, if you get an award or settlement outside 506 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:43,240 of the EO process, it may be offset, is what it says, may be offset by the value of VA 507 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:48,800 benefits. And that's, I think, contrary to law and seems to me to be trying to unduly 508 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,560 influence people. So I'm a little disappointed that it was drafted in that, certainly in 509 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:53,560 that fashion. 510 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,880 I agree with you. 511 00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:00,280 As you look at the national landscape, because I know you have clients all over the country, 512 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:05,200 and as I said, there's a coming, there'll be 100,000 of these administrative claims 513 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:12,440 before the years out, I'm sure. Where do we go from here? Because this isn't going to 514 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:17,960 get these cases out of the North Carolina courts. Do you think the North Carolina court 515 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:23,440 has to turn around and appoint a special master to develop its own matrix of how do we settle 516 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:24,880 these things? 517 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:31,200 So the good news, Jim, is that is already in process. The leadership committee that the 518 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:38,040 judges have appointed have already been hard at work trying to set up a national database 519 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,680 that's going to allow us to do the inputs for all of our clients once they get out of 520 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:48,680 the administrative claim process. And we don't know what all the criteria is going to be. 521 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:53,080 That's being fleshed out right now, and the judge has to sign off on it. Proposals are 522 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:58,840 being submitted for their review. Mike and I will be meeting with the national leadership 523 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:05,640 committees next Wednesday to get updates on where we are with the national models for 524 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:13,040 a settlement grid. So I believe that there will be a few cases tried. They're looking 525 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:19,760 at possibly March or April of next year to try a few what they call bellwether cases, 526 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:26,400 which would be cases that could test out how a jury looks at the evidence and what kind 527 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:31,920 of values they're putting on the cases and what the expert opinions are going to look 528 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:40,640 like so that we'll have a better sense of what we might need to negotiate with in terms 529 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:47,160 of the, let's just say the Navy and the Justice Department come up with a $500,000 settlement 530 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:53,880 on liver cancer. And yet we get a jury verdict of $4 million for liver cancer. We can't 531 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,800 go back to our clients and say take $500,000 when we know that a jury could value it so 532 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:03,160 much higher. So those things are going to be unfolding over the next six months to a 533 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:07,720 year while we navigate this terrain of all the administrative claims that are going to 534 00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:14,240 get dumped in North Carolina. Well, more to follow. We'll be continuing to update our 535 00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:21,320 veteran radio listeners as this progresses because it affects so many Marines. We're 536 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:25,880 talking to Attorney Katherine Grohl who's our expert on this. Katherine, if people want 537 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:33,360 to reach out to you, where would they find you? We are at the Mike Cox Law Firm and we 538 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:42,360 have a website that allows people to come in and ask about anything related to the Camp 539 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:50,440 Lejeune. Mike's got some information posted on there and he does a great job of outlining 540 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:56,160 what the criteria is and the disease process on there. And then our direct line phone number 541 00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:07,480 is 734-591-4002 and our law firm website is mikecoxlaw.com. Katherine, we appreciate 542 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:12,640 the time that you've given the veterans radio today and to have in the past to keep people 543 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:19,320 updated on this and we'd be very happy if we could reach out to you in the future as 544 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:24,320 this develops over the next six or nine months. It would be my pleasure Jim. Thank you so 545 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:29,160 much. Well, there's a little bit of information you probably didn't know about and really 546 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:33,960 it's there's been so much advertising on this Camp Lejeune water. We want to bring 547 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:41,720 you the truth as compared to the slick commercials that you get in 30 seconds or 60 seconds. 548 00:55:41,720 --> 00:55:48,680 So we hope you enjoyed the Chuck Bawini story and some update on the issues down at Camp 549 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:53,840 Lejeune here on Veterans Radio. And you know this does cost a little money. This is a labor 550 00:55:53,840 --> 00:56:01,760 of love but we do appreciate our sponsors including VA Health Care in Ann Arbor, our 551 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:09,360 VSO partners at Vietnam Veterans of America. The Charles has Kettles chapter 310, VFW 552 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:16,280 Graff O'Hara post 423 in American Legion Presscom post 46. And if you want to participate 553 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:22,480 in helping out Veterans Radio go to our website at veteransradio.org and click on the sponsorship 554 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:27,880 link. We're in our 20th year and appreciate all that our sponsors do for us and we're 555 00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:33,680 glad to bring you these stories. I'm Jim Fosso and Officer of the Deck and until next time 556 00:56:33,680 --> 00:57:02,160 when Dale's back on Veterans Radio you are dismissed. 557 00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:13,960 I'm Jim Fosso and I'm here to help you out.