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All across America and around the world, this is Veterans Radio.

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This is Veterans Radio.

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Welcome to Veterans Radio.

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I am Jim Fossone.

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I'm the officer of the deck today.

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We've got some great programs for you.

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I think you'll find very interesting.

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We always want to remind you you can find more about Veterans Radio at its Facebook site

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or at the web.

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VeteransRadio.org is our new URL, VeteransRadio.org.

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Where we're on the web 24-7, you can find a lot of our podcasts there as well.

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We post new ones every Tuesday, so you can get a new story, a new interview,

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something you didn't know before by going to VeteransRadio.org.

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And before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors.

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First up, we want to thank National Veteran Business Development Council, NVBDC.org.

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It was established to certify both service disabled and veteran-owned businesses.

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You'll find out how they can help your business by going to NVBDC.org.

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We want to thank Legal Help for Veterans.

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Legal Help for Veterans fights for veterans disability rights all across the nation.

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You can reach them at 800-693-4800 or on the web at LegalHelpForVeterans.com.

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We want to welcome to VeteransRadio today Michael DeMoss.

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Mike is an Army veteran.

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He's got an interesting business background, and that's what we're really going to talk to him about.

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Michael, welcome to VeteransRadio.

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Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

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Well, it really all starts with an ROTC scholarship in the early 80s, maybe late 79,

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at Western Maryland College. How did a nice kid like you get pulled into a ROTC scholarship, and where did that take you?

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Yeah, it's an interesting part of my story.

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My freshman year of college, my parents paid for my first year.

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I didn't do very well, and at the end of the year, they said,

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good luck, buddy, you're on your own.

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One of my best friends had an ROTC scholarship,

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so I went to the application, filled it out, did the physical training thing, and somehow they let me in.

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Well, it's one of those things I say to a lot of people who I end up talking to who say,

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well, college is so expensive, I can't find a way to go,

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to which I say, I'm calling BS on that, because there is always a way to go if you want it bad enough,

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and including going out and getting an ROTC scholarship.

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After graduating with your bachelor's degree in chemistry, what did the United States Army decide you should do?

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Well, I was a chemistry major in college, which, the only reason I chose that is because it was the shortest matriculation line

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when I was signing up for classes.

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I'm not buying that because organic chemistry was a killer.

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Oh, it was horrible. Yeah, so when I had my selection criteria, I would put aviation pilot first,

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ranger, infantry second, and chemical core third, and of course, they gave me a chemical core.

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So I was a chemical officer right out of the gate, one of the most unpopular guys on any Army post.

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Absolutely. You went to the U.S. Army Chemical School, you graduated from there, as well as Airborne School.

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You got to be a nuclear chemical and biological staff officer.

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All of those kind of good things, right? Where were you posted?

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I spent most of my time at Fort Lewis, Washington, which was a really, really good place to be.

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It was beautiful out there, the people were cool, the post was fun,

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and we got a lot of new equipment to test out there.

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So early in the Humbees, early in, like, TACFIRE for artillery, lots of cool testing.

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I really enjoyed Fort Lewis. It was a fun post.

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What was the time frame here, Mike?

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So I graduated from college in 85, and I was in Fort Lewis, the tail end of 86,

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and I spent the rest of my tour of duty there, and actually ETS in January of 90.

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And then I think the first Gulf War started within the next, I don't know, six to 12 months after that.

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Well, you got to miss some of that fun, and what we've had our guys in and gales in for the last 20 years

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is now over, thankfully, as well. But a lot of turmoil in the world.

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We still need good men and women out there protecting our freedoms.

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So you did what a lot of guys did. You know, got five and a half years in or something,

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and said, okay, it's now time to do something else. What was the something else?

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Well, it's interesting. I just did not like people telling me what to do, which was...

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Oh, what a surprise. What a surprise.

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I really enjoyed some parts of the military, but I just...

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The hardest part for me was just taking orders all the time, especially when I couldn't make sense of them in my own head.

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So I thought, okay, I'm going to go be a sales guy where I can, you know, drive my own world.

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And came to find out that I was just in another job where somebody was telling me what to do.

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There's always a sales manager, isn't there? Increasing your quota and telling you to do more.

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Yes, yes. And so my first sales job, it was right when R-12 was being phased out and replaced by R-22.

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And my company had something like, I don't know, 12,000 tons of this stuff in a yard.

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And they said, hey, we're going to have a special commission program.

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Whoever can sell this, you'll get $50 for every ton you sell or whatever.

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And I had only been in the job six months and I sold the whole entire yard to one customer.

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And somehow that made me sales manager material.

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So that's how I got to be a sales manager, you know, just because I had one lucky day, I guess.

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So... And a lot of guys find that what they get out and do originally right after transitioning

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maybe isn't what they end up doing for their career. And you did about eight years in the

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sales and general manager area in the same kind of thing. Two companies that I think are probably

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competitors, direct competitors of each other. Yeah. Yeah. When that, when you got through that

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period, what was the itch? What were you like? I just got to move to something else and talk

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about that transition because a lot of veterans go through multiple career transitions.

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Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's twofold. One part of it was I still had people telling me what to do.

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But I think the second part of it was I really, I felt like no matter what kind of job I had,

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I was never going to make, I was never going to really make money. And because I had been in sales

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and sales management and general management, I could look at a P&L and I could see how much

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money I was making for the company. And then what little tiny bit of that was coming to me.

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And I just felt like I've got to do something on my own. And I just was looking for opportunities.

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And one of my friends from high school called me up one day and said, Hey, I met these guys,

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they have a company for sale. Do you want to go in with me and buy it? And we knew nothing about

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it. It was a mailing company, direct mail. And we went to a big trade show and there was all these

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machines and all these people and all this hype. And we got really excited. And we said, Okay,

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we're going to buy this thing. And so I took, I mean, it's nuts. I took a $50,000 second mortgage

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on my house. And then I got 10 credit cards for $5,000 each all on the same day cash advance.

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And that's how I got together $100,000 to buy my part of the company.

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Now, what year would this have been, Mike? This was 1998.

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And risk taking certainly is something that most guys in the military live with.

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And so was this financial risk something that you really agonized over? Or did you just view this

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as this is the next thing I got to take a risk on and somehow I'll make it all work?

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Yeah, I think it's more the latter. I mean, we're moving really fast. But I had started a couple

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of small companies along the way that either made a little bit of money and then I ran out of energy

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and stopped or the product lived out its life cycle. So I had made, I had seen the ability to

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make a little bit of money fast. And I just felt like I needed out and I was willing to take a risk.

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And I mean, I had a piece of paper that justified financially why I was doing this, but it was

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at that time for me a very risky move. But I just was confident that we would figure it out.

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And you know, we almost went broke three times over three years. Like it wasn't easy. But we would

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always think about this is what we thought we were going to do. It's not exactly working right.

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How can we pivot to something that's slightly different that's more appealing to the customers?

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And we just adapted, adapted, adapted until we found the right kind of groove and then really

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worked that angle the best we could. And I mean, if I'm giving advice to anybody, if you have an

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idea and it's not working, just pivot a little bit to make it work. Don't don't like hang your

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hat on that one thing that that's not working.

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Yeah, and really look at what your customers saying and doing and say, oh, well, I don't do

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that exactly right now, but I could shift a little bit and do it and be you should kind of

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shift it more to marketing and and communication. Tell us about that a little bit.

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Yeah, so so in both of the companies that I worked for after the military and then my own company,

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we would we were hiring advertising agencies to help us grow our business. And my overall

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experience while we had some good experiences, our overall experiences with the advertising

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agencies, they charged a lot of money. There was a lot of fluff, and they weren't really helping

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our business. And and I felt like they were great for these big, you know, proctor and gamble or

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somebody like that. But a small or midsize business needed someone who really understood both the

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P&L and the marketing and would come in and kind of sit at the table as their fractional CMO is

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the best way I can describe it. And I found that's the niche that we have have landed and where

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we're trying to help small to business midsize business owners grow their business, not wasting

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their money on things that don't work, and then help them drive a return in their business. That's

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and that's where I find my passion is helping other entrepreneurs grow their business. Like,

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that's where I that's where I get the juice from watching that happen and being successful doing

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that. Well, and you had worked for some big, you know, Fortune 100 company, you know,

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Fortune 100 companies and saw what they could do. But what was really missing was for that small

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business, you know, they don't have a whole department of people sitting around working on

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marketing, although they need help and they know they need help in this area. And quite frankly,

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you're doing this at a time when the marketplace is really changing, right? It's going from

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publication to internet, if you will. So so there was a big transition going on that it was difficult

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and still going on for difficult for the small business guy to to get a grasp of, isn't it?

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Yeah, it's very complicated these days. And it's it's on the channel. So you can't just do direct

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mail or you can't just do TV, you have to be in a lot of places. And there's just so many

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companies that are trying to sell a silver bullet, like, Hey, if you just do this one thing,

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it's going to work. And it's really not true. But that's what they sell. So that's what they're

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promoting. And we're promoting marketing as more holistically. And it's one thing I wanted to say

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about the big companies, they can get away with things that small companies can't because they

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have a lot of revenue, they have investors, you know, I remember this one company I worked for,

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I won't say the name, but they reorganized once a year over five years, new president, new values,

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new mission. And the fifth year we reorganized back to the way it was the first year that I went

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there. And that was like, that was like my mind just blew up in my head, because I was like,

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small companies can't afford to go through all this and change the signs and spend all this money,

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they just need to grow their business and focus on the key things that are going to help do that.

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And that's really, that's part of what got me out of there was like, I just can't do this anymore.

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Well, that's right, a small business can't afford those kind of mistakes. It can't blow money on

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an advertising campaign that doesn't work because it doesn't have really deep pockets, it's got to

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have some return on investment. And your company, Victory 360, tell us what its sweet spot is.

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So it's funny, I actually own two companies. So Victory 360 is direct response marketing for

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home services businesses. So plumbers, HVAC, insurance, roofing, siding, windows, doors.

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So what we're doing is we're analyzing the persona of their best customers, their income value,

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where they live, how they vote politically, and we are helping them message those consumers

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in a way that they're most responsive to. And we're touching them with direct mail, email,

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display campaigns, social campaigns, and we're driving really, really good response rates.

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So like, I have a plumbing company, our lead costs to them. So their cost per lead, when you factor

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in all the money that they spend is about $60 or somebody to call them to place an order.

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And that's very, very reasonable and very predictable.

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And they don't even get in the van and drive to your house without a mobilization or service

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charge of probably over $100. So it's all equals out right there before they've done a thing.

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Yeah, their average, I mean, this is how we back into what we're going to do for a client. But

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if their average ticket is $350 and the lifetime value of a client is $1,500 and they can surely

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spend $60 to get them in the door. Well, and that's the kind of math and results that business

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owners can understand. It's, you know, sort of direct. Now, you said you have a second company,

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tell us about that as well. Yeah, so the C360 agency is more of the full service advertising

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agency that uses the fractional CMO as the kind of the pivot point for the client. So when we

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were talking earlier, that's the company I was talking about. I go in, I meet with the owners,

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we figure out what their financial goals are. And then I build a mark putting plan them.

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And then I bring in the subject matter experts to execute against that plan.

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Well, it's hard to cut through all the noise. You know, we all get bombarded with advertising,

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with emails, with spam filters that get more sophisticated, trying to protect us.

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So that's got to be part of the strategy, isn't it? Like, how do we cut through the noise and get

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your message heard? Yes, yes. And that's, that does take some budget, right? So one of the things

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that we run into is people that have big dreams about what, how they want to grow their business,

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but they don't have any marketing budget. And that in today's world, that's just not possible.

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Right. So you've got to have a budget and then you've got to do it over the long term. So a good

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example would be, I get calls all the time, the client says, Hey, I want to get on TV next month.

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And I'm like, do you have the budget to be on the TV every month for 12 months? Oh, no, I don't

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want to do that. Okay, well, then you don't want to get on TV. Because one month is just going to

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waste your money. Let's take the budget that you have. Let's figure out where your customers

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are looking for your service. And then let's just go there. Right. So where do people look for

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whatever your services and what do they look like? What do they care about? And let's go

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only there and start there. So we have a, we have a cannabis farm in Michigan that's a client of ours.

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I think he was on your show. In fact, I'm not going to mention his name, but he was.

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And so, you know, he's a, he has to sell to the retailers. But what he needed was to build a brand.

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So where can you build a brand for cannabis? Really, it's social media. Right. And by showing

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the people that are on the farm, the quality of the things that you're growing, the, the, the

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statistics on the quality of the product that you're selling to the retailers,

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building a brand that was, it was almost all social media. And now he's recognized in 10 states and

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people think he's, you know, a big company. And it's all about picking that where your

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customers are. And that's where we found his customers. Well, it's interesting because when

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I, I talked to him, I said, man, you got a great website here. And, you know, he just sort of smiled.

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But it's all part of that, isn't it? Having the right image, promoting the right image,

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getting people to take a look at you. All of that helps build the brand, doesn't it?

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Yeah. I mean, you, when you interview that person, I mean, he, he knew very early on that his business

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was all about the people, like taking farmers and making farming cool again. And so that's what

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you build the brand around is that value that the, that the CEO's vision and, but you have to say in

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a way that common people can connect with. And, and yeah, we've done that. Well, here's a question,

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I think probably a lot of small business veteran owned small businesses out there are thinking,

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man, I don't know if I got the budget for this. What, what, as an expert like you, what percentage

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of revenue should, should a small business, what range should it be thinking about putting into

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its marketing budget? It's, it's a, it's a hard question because it's somewhat industry specific,

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but I would say generally speaking, it's something like three to 10% of your, of your revenue budget

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has to be 30% of whatever your revenue is needs to be in, in marketing. And I, and I think most

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small companies need to be spending something like five to $10,000 a month between the

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professional services of the people that they're working with and the paid application of those

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things, whether it's digital ads or radio, TV, email deployment, whatever it is, but, but it's,

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you know, and if you, if you don't like, we work with a lot of nonprofits that get grants and they'll

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get like a $50 million grant over five years to build a really cool service. Like, you know,

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people that are getting out of prison to get them reconnected or what they say, these big budgets,

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and then they come to us and say, well, we need help building our program and say, well, how much

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is in the budget for the, that $50 million project? Oh, we didn't put any marketing money in there.

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Right? Like, duh, like, right. If they don't find it, it doesn't do any good. It's the,

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it's the light under the bushel basket. So that's starting to change and you, and you do see nonprofits

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advertising. They're really good causes, but no one knows about them. Right. And so they've got a,

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they've got to have a marketing budget. And that's, as you've, as you've moved through your business

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career and become this, you know, CEO of multiple businesses with a working with a lot of other

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business owners, do you feel that some of that, some of those things that you learned, whether

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with SINROTC or your five years in, in, in the army, do some of those things still ripple forward as

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the points of reference for you? Yeah, it's a great question. Sometimes I do a lot of one-on-one

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calls with the CEOs of the companies that we represent. And a lot of times on the call, they'll

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say, I think, I feel like I was just in a therapy session because, because I'm talking about,

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what I remember about my first job as a second lieutenant, it was my first exposure to what I,

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what's been called imposter syndrome. You know, I'm like college graduate, six months of officer

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training, three months of airborne school, boom, you're in charge. And I mean, I really knew that

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I didn't know. And just being able to admit that and then find ways to learn and get support was

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really, really important. And I feel like just because somebody has a title of a CEO, everyone

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expects them to already know everything. And I don't think most of us do. But we have support

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networks to help us work through some of the more challenging issues. And I, I would say,

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I've always, every time I've changed jobs or come up with a new idea, I've always had that

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little bit of insecurity. But having good mentors and good people around me to talk through things

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has been the thing that's kind of helped me get over the home. And just saying, Hey, you're not

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the only one who feels like that is a, is a great place to start. Yeah, we can all learn from each

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other. And that's what we try to do here on Veterans Radio. And we're talking to business owner,

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Army veteran entrepreneur, Michael DeMoss. Michael's, you've got your own podcast, I believe,

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that you've just gotten started called Finding Your Grit. That's that, that comes back to your

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Army days. Yeah, I, so this is, this follows on the, what I was just saying, I want to find a way

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to have business owners tell stories about what happened in their career. So that young

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entrepreneurs can hear how they navigated that versus someone giving them advice or telling

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them what to do. Because when someone would tell me, Hey, Mike, you have this problem,

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here's what you should do. I had a hard time accepting that and integrating it. But when

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I would see a business owner talk about, he went through this hard time, here's the things he

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thought about, here's the decisions he made, and here was the outcome. I can choose what I want to

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learn from their experience and then integrate that into my company. And that's what Finding Your

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Grit is all about. I'm trying to find business leaders who are willing to get really personal

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about experiences they've had and how they overcame them so that young entrepreneurs can learn from

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them. Well, it's a great, I think, opportunity to pass on to other entrepreneurs, other veterans,

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business owners of sort of things that, you know, you don't have to learn everything the hard way.

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If somebody else already learned it the hard way, maybe you could just take that advice if

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you can internalize it. But Mike, let's remember, Mike, you started with, I don't take direction

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from other people very well. Right. That's my old point. And I think, like, I think there's like this

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internal struggle that a lot of people don't even admit that they don't like being told what to do.

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I mean, there's a whole population of people that are fine being given direction and following

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direction, whatever. But there are people that are in seats getting told what to do that absolutely

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hate it. And they feel like there's something wrong with them. And there's not. There's just,

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there's, there's different kinds of people. And, and I learned much better, kind of a little bit

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the hard way and a little bit learning from other people's experiences versus people telling me

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what to do. My parents would reinforce that. Well, we're talking to, we're talking to somebody

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who's earned his chops in the marketing area. Michael, if folks want to find you, how do they do

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that? Easiest way is www.c-360.agency. And there's a contact form on the webpage.

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Well, we appreciate you taking a little time today to talk to Veterans Radio about your

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experiences in the Army, how you, how you got there, what you learned there. And more importantly,

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your progress through the business world, because I think we all learn a little something when,

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yeah, we find maybe it was pretty hard for somebody else. Oh, they almost went bankrupt a few times.

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But just hang in there. You'd be persistent and you keep learning and moving forward, don't you?

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Yep. Yep. And I would also put the offer out there that there are any young veteran entrepreneurs

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who want to just share their idea, talk about some experiences they're having,

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and hear my experiences. I'm happy to connect. It's one of my favorite things to do.

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Again, thank you for your time with Veterans Radio today.

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Thank you so much. And I want to thank everybody for listening to Veterans Radio today. I am Jim

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Fawcone. It's been a pleasure to be your host. I'm a Veterans Disability Lawyer at Legal Help

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for Veterans. And you can reach us at 800-6934800 or legalhelpforveterans.com on the web.

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You can follow Veterans Radio on Facebook and listen to its podcasts and Internet radio shows.

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By visiting us at veteransradio.org. That's veteransradio.org.

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And until next time, you are dismissed.

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If you have a VA claim denied by the Board of Veterans Appeals, contact Legal Help for Veterans

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at 1-800-6934800. They're experts in handling cases before the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans

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Claims. Their number again, 1-800-6934800. We again want to thank our national sponsors,

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the National Veterans Business Development Council, NVBDC.org, VA Ann Arbor Health Care System,

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the Vietnam Veterans of America, Charles S. Kettles Chapter, Ann Arbor, Michigan,

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VFW Graf O'Hara Post 423 in Ann Arbor, and the American Legion Press Corn Post 46 also in Ann Arbor.

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We appreciate all your support. You can go to veteransradio.net, click on the sponsor level,

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and continue to support keeping veterans radio on the air. And until next time, you are dismissed.

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Thank you.