1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,520 Welcome to the Chronos Fusion Energy Corporate Podcast. 2 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:20,080 I'm your host Priyanka Ford, founder of Chronos Fusion Energy. 3 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:25,520 This podcast explores the latest in fusion energy and the incredible individuals driving 4 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,940 its advancements. 5 00:00:27,940 --> 00:00:33,120 Our special guest today is Ruben Fair, one of the brightest minds in magnet design and 6 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:39,560 magnetic shielding, whose career has left a profound impact on both industrial and research 7 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,760 sectors. 8 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,240 Ruben's journey into the world of magnets began with an electrical engineering degree 9 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:52,800 from Imperial College London, followed by a PhD in the same field. 10 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:59,240 His early career focused on heavy power engineering, transmission lines, and hydro generators, 11 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:05,600 leading him to work with the joint European Taurus, JET, where he got his first taste 12 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,040 of nuclear fusion technology. 13 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:15,200 While at Oxford Instruments, Ruben expanded his expertise in superconducting magnets, 14 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:21,280 working on projects ranging from small academic magnets to large scale systems for national 15 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,440 laboratories. 16 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:29,920 His work there involved superconducting magnets for nuclear magnetic resonance and physics 17 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:36,680 experiments, building his reputation as a leader in the field. 18 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:44,480 After more than a decade at Oxford Instruments, Ruben continued his journey at Converti, leading 19 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:52,220 a technical team in developing hydro generators using high temperature superconducting materials. 20 00:01:52,220 --> 00:01:58,000 His expertise in magnet design and magnetic shielding has been integral to projects at 21 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:04,560 General Electric, Power Conversion, and Jefferson Laboratory, where he oversaw the design and 22 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:11,320 commissioning of superconducting magnets for a significant upgrade to their accelerator. 23 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:19,640 Recently, Ruben was part of the fusion energy community at Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, 24 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:26,520 leading the US Eater team responsible for designing and constructing diagnostic instruments 25 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,440 for the international fusion experiment. 26 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:36,120 His extensive knowledge and hands-on experience with superconducting magnets are critical 27 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:43,520 for developing the smart fusion energy generator at Kronos Fusion Energy. 28 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:50,040 In this episode, we explore Ruben's extensive career, discuss the intricacies of magnet 29 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:57,120 design, and dwell into the challenges and breakthroughs in the realm of fusion energy. 30 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:02,520 Get ready to learn from one of the industry's most knowledgeable experts. 31 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:10,280 Let's get into the Kronos Fusion Energy podcast with Ruben Fair. 32 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:17,520 We always start this, Ruben, with asking everyone how you got into your specific profession. 33 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,080 So what got you interested in magnets? 34 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,480 Well, I graduated as an electrical engineer. 35 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:34,080 I did my first degree and my PhD in electrical engineering, primarily heavy electrical engineering. 36 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:43,320 So power transmission, motors, generators, which of course are essentially electromagnets, 37 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,440 rotating electromagnets. 38 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:51,920 So I did that for about five years, designing hydroelectric generators, essentially for 39 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:58,160 pumped storage schemes all over the world, a very exciting time. 40 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:03,960 Traveled to a couple of countries to help install some of these machines, which was 41 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,440 an eye-opener for me as well. 42 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,520 First time out of college, going out in the field. 43 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:17,240 So I did that for five years, a hydroelectric power generator design. 44 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:28,040 And even then, at that very early stage, so this was back in about 1988, 89, 90, thereabouts, 45 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,840 I got involved in the refurbishment of the jet machine. 46 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:39,720 So the jet machine in Oxford, the joint European Taurus, is essentially a vertical shaft hydro 47 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,440 generator, spun up to speed by very large induction machines. 48 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,600 And GCL Storm Large Machines, where I was working at the time, was actually the company 49 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:56,080 that built those two types of machine, flywheel generators and the induction motors for jet. 50 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:02,400 So that was my first introduction to, I guess, the fringes of nuclear fusion machines, fusion 51 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,800 engineering. 52 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:10,680 So like I said, worked at GCL Storm Large Machines for about five years, then went on 53 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:18,480 to Oxford Instruments, where I spent, I want to say, 13 or 14 years designing and leading 54 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:25,320 teams designing superconducting magnets for nuclear magnetic resonance, and also physics 55 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,280 magnets for academic institutions all around the world. 56 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:33,880 I learned from some of the best in the field in superconducting magnets during my time 57 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,320 at Oxford Instruments, which was very exciting. 58 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:47,960 So really, magnets is always, electromagnets and so on have always been part of my career, 59 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:48,960 I guess. 60 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,960 And it really, it hasn't changed since then. 61 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,160 You played with magnets as a kid, right? 62 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:56,160 You did. 63 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:08,280 At what age did it click that magnets could be used for these large industrial purposes? 64 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:11,760 What were you using them for? 65 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,880 Was jet built with a high temperature superconducting magnet? 66 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,400 Because I feel like that came way out. 67 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,160 No, it wasn't at all. 68 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,280 It was just in a conventional copper magnet. 69 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:30,060 So some of the calculations, they were really interesting because it's a pulsed machine. 70 00:06:30,060 --> 00:06:33,840 So you're injecting huge amounts of current into the copper windings. 71 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:39,120 So you had to really calculate temperature rise on these machine windings very, very 72 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,120 accurately. 73 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:47,360 And that level of detail kind of interested me in a kind of nerdish sort of way. 74 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,840 Yeah, so it was really interesting. 75 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:59,440 And so the new version that's being built now is using HTS magnets out there, right? 76 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,880 The new jet, I think it's called. 77 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,320 So they've got a variety of projects out there. 78 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,640 To be honest, I've not really kept up to date with what they're doing out there, but some 79 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,040 of them, they use a mixture of LTS and HTS windings. 80 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,040 Yeah. 81 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,960 Very interesting. 82 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:27,560 Were you then, how did you get into high temperature superconducting magnets? 83 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:33,320 So when I was at Oxford Instruments, so designing the superconducting magnets in a nuclear magnetic 84 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:39,560 resonance type magnets and magnets for physics experiments, we used just low temperature 85 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:40,560 superconductors. 86 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:45,560 So Ni-Vin titanium, Ni-Vin 3 tin conductors. 87 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:52,680 But there was a lot of interest out in the commercial world using HTS magnets. 88 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:59,880 I then applied for a position in a company that's kind of a strange story, very small 89 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:05,840 world, because when I first started my career working on hydro generators, it was a company 90 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,480 called GEC Alstom Large Machines. 91 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:13,640 I then left, went to Oxford Instruments, worked with low temperature superconductors, and 92 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,560 then GEC Alstom Large Machines at the time was bought up by Alstom, and they split off 93 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:24,440 and formed a smaller company, and they were doing work with HTS materials. 94 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:25,800 So that really interested me. 95 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:34,840 So I went and joined them to lead up a technical team, and there we built, designed, built, 96 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:42,040 tested a hydro generator using HTS materials on the rotor winding. 97 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:49,120 We also worked on superconducting propulsion motors for ships and military vessels, and 98 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,480 we also started looking at superconducting wind turbine generators. 99 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,800 Again, all using HTS materials. 100 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:01,960 So that was my first foray really into HTS, into the HTS world. 101 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:02,960 Wow. 102 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:10,080 Yeah, there's so many, there's so many industrial uses for magnets that you wouldn't really 103 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,760 think of. 104 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,200 What is the one that came out of left field for you? 105 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:22,320 What is the one use for HTS that you never thought we would be using magnets for? 106 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,320 Just purely. 107 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,520 I think the hydro generator that we worked on. 108 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:33,360 Even at that point in time, people were already not just thinking about, but were actually 109 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:42,760 starting to build R&D machines and even fault current limiters, for example, using HTS materials. 110 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,540 So people had already started to do that, even transformers. 111 00:09:46,540 --> 00:09:50,400 But really the hydro generator was a really interesting one for us. 112 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,160 And for me in particular, we were using HTS windings on the rotor. 113 00:09:54,160 --> 00:10:00,440 So the rotor is rotating at 214 revolutions per minute. 114 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,440 And HTS windings rotating at that kind of speed. 115 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,880 They had to be enclosed in a vacuum chamber. 116 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,280 So the whole vacuum chamber had to rotate at that speed. 117 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:18,920 And we had to still be able to pipe cold helium down the shaft, across a rotating coupling 118 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,200 interface into that rotor. 119 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:29,320 So that really was the real, not just a challenge, but a huge interest for me and my team. 120 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:34,400 I think we were, I wouldn't say the first to do it, but probably one of the first groups 121 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,280 to do that kind of thing. 122 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,240 Now that sounds like a really big engineering challenge. 123 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,240 It was, it really was. 124 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:48,120 I mean, system integration there was so, was a huge challenge for us. 125 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,520 We were kind of competing with conventional technology, copper windings and all the rest 126 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,600 of it in the motor and generator field. 127 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:01,080 And here we were trying to merge conventional technology so that the stator was essentially 128 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:07,480 conventional technology, steel, copper, or the rotor was the unique element employing 129 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,640 these HTS windings. 130 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:10,960 Wow. 131 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,560 That's wonderful. 132 00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:18,440 Did you work on MRI machines at GE? 133 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,520 Was that something that you were part of? 134 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:21,880 No, well, kind of. 135 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:22,880 So kind of, yes. 136 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:24,060 The answer is yes and no. 137 00:11:24,060 --> 00:11:30,240 So at GE, so this was in the Global Research Center up in upstate New York. 138 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:36,520 So there I was primarily focused on superconducting wind turbine generators and we had got some 139 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:37,520 funding. 140 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,880 We managed to win some funding from the DOE. 141 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:46,480 And really the question we asked ourselves was how do we get a superconducting machine 142 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:52,000 like this for an off-traw wind turbine to market in the quickest way possible? 143 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:57,640 So we thought, well, let's leverage technology that we already know that works. 144 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,760 So MRI machines, so GE of course builds MRI machines using LTS conductors. 145 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:10,840 So there what we said we would do is let's use the MRI LTS technology and implement that 146 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,880 in a superconducting wind turbine generator for offshore use. 147 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:20,240 And you can imagine that in itself brings a lot of challenges to the table. 148 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,920 You know, we're talking about an offshore turbine, which meant that whatever technology 149 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,960 you were installing out there had to be immensely reliable. 150 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,680 You couldn't get out there to maintain it very often. 151 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:38,360 So really we had to think about all, think about that from day one. 152 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,360 And that guided our design for the whole machine. 153 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:43,720 Interesting. 154 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:49,600 So you have been specifically energy centric. 155 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,080 It sounds like. 156 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:57,680 Was there a reason that you choose energy? 157 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:02,360 Is there a philosophical reason or is that just one? 158 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:08,840 Yeah, I think I don't think I had any great plans really to get into that field. 159 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,840 At college when I did my first degree and second degree, I'd always been interested 160 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:19,320 in the heavy side of electrical engineering or the motors, generators, power transmission. 161 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:26,600 And in fact, I did lots of projects at college centered around heavy electrical engineering 162 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:33,240 and even my and and and I think that was what drove me into that field and never looked 163 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,640 back, never, never had any regrets that there is so much out there in the field of electrical 164 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:44,200 engineering and being able to employ superconductivity in that particular field was was very exciting. 165 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,240 Yeah, I can see that. 166 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:52,880 I think I think there's something about energy where you see it every single day in your 167 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,280 life, you see the effect of it. 168 00:13:55,280 --> 00:14:00,020 So I think working on it makes it exciting because you know that you're you're kind of 169 00:14:00,020 --> 00:14:02,160 enabling new types of energy. 170 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,080 I think that that would that would drive me. 171 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,080 Yeah, yeah. 172 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:07,080 Yeah. 173 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:17,040 So thinking about fusion, then Ruben, when when did you first start working on on anything 174 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:26,720 to do with fusion and why why why what did you know that there would all the day I mean, 175 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,880 it's pretty optimistic to be in the fusion energy field today. 176 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,360 But did you know that it was going to be like this? 177 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,400 No, not at all. 178 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:42,120 You know, back when I was growing up in Brunei, I must have been in my late teens, early teens, 179 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:43,120 late teens. 180 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,280 I'd read an article about the jet machine. 181 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,640 I'd never come across anything like that before. 182 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:55,360 Fusion technology, fusion engineering didn't know anything about it at all. 183 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,880 So years later, after I graduated, started my first job at GC. 184 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:06,960 And like I said, you know, I had started working on part of the refurbishment of the existing 185 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,440 jet machine. 186 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,280 So to be able to actually walk into that machine hall and look at that machine that I'd read 187 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,980 about all those years ago was absolutely fascinating to me. 188 00:15:16,980 --> 00:15:22,760 So I would say that would have been my really my first introduction to fusion engineering 189 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,120 and as part of that job, because we were the hydro generator design team. 190 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,680 And like I said, you know, jet was built around a hydro generator, essentially a flywheel 191 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:32,680 generator. 192 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:39,800 We also did some work for a university in Spain, again, looking at flywheel generators, 193 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,720 but this time a horizontal shaft machine. 194 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:48,240 So my first job straight out of college, I had already started to work on the fringes 195 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,160 of nuclear fusion energy. 196 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,160 But then, of course, you know, when I moved into the field of superconducting magnets, 197 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,520 that was really nothing to do with fusion at all. 198 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:04,320 So, you know, 14, 15, 20 years, I didn't do anything to do with fusion at all until much 199 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:10,000 more recently in the last three, four years when I got back into it. 200 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,320 Yeah. 201 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:17,600 Was it was it the popularity of the Repco tape? 202 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,120 Was that what brought you back? 203 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,920 Because that was about four or five years ago. 204 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,280 Well, not really that so much. 205 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:34,240 Obviously, the tape manufacture and use of that tape in fabrication of large magnets 206 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,520 still has its challenges and folks are working to resolve those challenges. 207 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:44,840 But about three years ago, I was approached to head up the US ETA team at the Princeton 208 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:50,680 Plasma Physics Laboratory, the team that's designing six diagnostic systems for the ETA 209 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,080 machine in France. 210 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:58,760 And that was a great opportunity for me to get back into the field of fusion, fusion 211 00:16:58,760 --> 00:16:59,760 engineering. 212 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,840 Now, back then, you know, I didn't know very much about fusion engineering. 213 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,480 I knew even less about fusion diagnostics systems. 214 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:14,960 But here was an opportunity to work with an extremely high skilled, highly skilled team 215 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:22,160 in one of the premier fusion laboratories in the world on a global multinational project 216 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:23,840 like like like ETA in France. 217 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,280 So who was hired to turn that down? 218 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:33,120 And as it turned out, I learned an enormous amount working with these folks at Princeton. 219 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:41,760 I learned a lot about the ETA project, actually visited the machine at site and was totally 220 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:48,720 blown away, completely impressed by the enormous engineering challenges that still exist today, 221 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:55,000 even though it's 70% complete, and will continue to face the project as they continue towards 222 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,000 completion. 223 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:01,840 But the dedication of the team, commitment of the team, not just at ETA, but also at 224 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:11,040 Princeton, really drove me forward and made it a very, very worthwhile experience at Princeton. 225 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,880 What made it so great? 226 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,160 It's like almost an impossible engineering endeavor. 227 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:25,760 We're talking about plasma tens of millions of degrees, and we are designing diagnostic 228 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:32,960 instruments, essentially six of them, six huge diagnostic instruments to essentially 229 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:42,800 punch through the vacuum vessel that contains the plasma and look directly at this really 230 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:53,520 hot plasma to be able to get data from it, use that data to be able to control the machine. 231 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,960 Huge engineering challenge, something that very few people have done successfully. 232 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:04,040 Obviously, there are R&D machines all around the world which do that kind of thing. 233 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:09,640 But like I said, they're R&D machines, they are very much in a laboratory environment 234 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:15,600 where you can essentially get in there and adjust your instruments if they go wrong or 235 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:16,600 don't work. 236 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:23,960 But in ETA, we had to design from day one instruments that were highly reliable, pretty 237 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,600 much maintenance free, because once you install them, you're not going to be able to touch 238 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,720 them for 10 or 20 years. 239 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:37,760 And that all added to the excitement of working on a project like this, and especially such 240 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,200 a multinational global project. 241 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,360 Right, yeah. 242 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:46,920 And you definitely seem to like an engineering challenge. 243 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,560 So that makes sense. 244 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:55,000 I would say that's just about as complicated as it gets. 245 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,640 Funny, you haven't worked on any space things. 246 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,520 Have you sent anything into space? 247 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,480 Am I missing something? 248 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,040 Not directly, no. 249 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:12,480 But we did, again, this is going back to the Oxford Instruments days, we did work on small 250 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:18,640 superconducting magnets and systems which were intended to go into space. 251 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,360 To be honest, I can't remember if they ever actually did make it there. 252 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:31,520 But we also did design and manufacture superconducting machines for, say, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory 253 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,320 and NASA. 254 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,960 So not exactly going into space, but land-based systems. 255 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,200 Well, there's still time. 256 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:54,440 It's interesting, so you've worked on vacuum chambers, cryogenics, low temperature, high 257 00:20:54,440 --> 00:21:01,600 temperature, all of those have so many industrial applications. 258 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:14,720 How, 50 years from now, which one of these inventions do you think we'll be using all 259 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,680 the time, but we don't know now that we would be? 260 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,080 Like as humanity, is it vacuum chambers? 261 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,600 Would it be magnets? 262 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,320 Cryogenics, perhaps? 263 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:32,200 I think we're always going to need magnets in one shape or form or the other. 264 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,880 It just depends on what those magnets look like. 265 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:41,560 We've come a long way, of course, from electromagnets, copper windings, for example. 266 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,880 We obviously have permanent magnets of various types. 267 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,920 Then we move into low temperature superconductors, high temperature superconductors. 268 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:56,520 I think the holy grail, of course, for any engineer in any engineering field is room 269 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,120 temperature, superconducting magnets, or something close to room temperature. 270 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,440 50 years from now, will we get there? 271 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:04,440 Who knows? 272 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:05,440 Possibly, maybe. 273 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:11,920 If we do get very close to room temperature operation, then maybe cryogenics won't be 274 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:12,920 so important. 275 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,920 Maybe vacuum chambers won't be so important, but certainly magnets in some shape or form 276 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:22,920 will always be required, and heading down the fusion route, magnets are absolutely key 277 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,320 for some of the types of machines that we're talking about. 278 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,280 What are room temperature superconductors, Ruben? 279 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:36,240 Essentially, superconductors that have no resistance, so little to no power loss, but 280 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,560 working pretty much at room temperature, so you don't need to cool them down to cryogenic 281 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:41,560 temperatures. 282 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:47,640 Cryogenic plant for conventional superconducting magnets today, whether low temperature or 283 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,640 high temperature, are still expensive. 284 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:58,880 They can be reliable, but they're not maybe reliable enough to compete with conventional 285 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,120 technology, copper-based technology that's out there. 286 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:08,280 Really, room temperature superconducting magnets, I think, is something that everyone's trying 287 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,360 to work towards. 288 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:12,240 Working there is very, very difficult. 289 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:13,960 We have to find the right materials. 290 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:20,080 We have to find the right environment to be able to manufacture these materials. 291 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:25,640 Of course, also, get these materials in a form that can be fabricated into magnets. 292 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,920 There's no point just having a little pellet of a magnet. 293 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:35,360 You need to be able to have it in a form that you can wind magnets from or machine it into 294 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:37,920 a magnetic form. 295 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:44,040 There are all these manufacturing hurdles that we still have to overcome, irrespective 296 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:53,800 of the R&D that needs to go into developing these materials in the first place. 297 00:23:53,800 --> 00:24:03,440 There is a possibility of having a room temperature superconducting sort of a repco tape in the 298 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:10,280 same form as a repco tape, where you could wrap it around different things to make whatever 299 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,280 shape you want. 300 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,800 But for us, it would be toroidal field coils. 301 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,720 Am I right? 302 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,680 I would like to think so. 303 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,280 Right now, where we are in the development of these types of materials, it's almost like 304 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:28,160 science fiction, trying to predict what's going to be available in 40, 50 years' time. 305 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,160 But certainly, I'd like to think that, yes, we could develop those sorts of materials 306 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,160 in the future. 307 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,920 Of course, the research that's been going on and has been going on for decades will 308 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,400 feed into that work. 309 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,920 We were talking to Sushma last week. 310 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,760 We were doing the same thing with her. 311 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:58,080 She's got promoted to running one of the AI teams at Google, the payments AI team. 312 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:08,600 We spoke a lot about Google's recent breakthrough with materials, where they had a quantum computer 313 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:14,360 come up with, I think, 380,000 material compositions. 314 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:19,440 And they said that it surpassed about 800 years' worth of... 315 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,840 It's not for a quantum computer. 316 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,960 It would take us about 800 years to get these material compositions. 317 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:37,280 If we threw a lot of computing towards finding a room temperature superconductor, that's 318 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,480 a game changer, yeah? 319 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,320 Absolutely, yes. 320 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:47,360 Computing has come such a long way in the decades since we first started using these 321 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:48,920 sorts of machines. 322 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,800 Quantum computing, AI, the combination of those two, I think, is going to be phenomenal 323 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,760 for not just fusion engineering, but pretty much every aspect of our life. 324 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:07,880 AI, in itself, it's already started to be used for predicting plasma behaviour in fusion 325 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:08,880 machines. 326 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,600 If you can predict plasma behaviour to a sufficient level of accuracy, you can use that to control 327 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:14,600 the machine. 328 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,480 That's already one area where AI's been used. 329 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,480 And certainly, material development, that's another key area. 330 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,640 And of course, that's all in the computing machine itself. 331 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:33,040 But then you do need to be able to extract relevant information to be able to start doing 332 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:38,120 small R&D projects in the lab, maybe build prototype machines. 333 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:43,400 And then that will be the next step forward, actually proving it in the field. 334 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,400 That's exciting. 335 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,840 It is, really. 336 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:47,840 What a great time. 337 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:56,360 This is kind of circling back, just one quick question, with the room temperature superconductor 338 00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:01,120 hypothetically then, why would you not need a vacuum chamber? 339 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:08,600 Well, it does depend on what type of room temperature superconductor they come up with. 340 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:14,640 The vacuum chamber being as it is today and how it's used today for superconducting machines, 341 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:23,040 there's essentially a thermos flask, a thermal flask, so that to essentially keep your superconductor 342 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:28,600 and whatever medium it's in, for example, liquid helium, to keep it cold and isolate 343 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,240 it from the outside environment. 344 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,960 Now, if you have a room temperature superconductor, in theory, you could say, okay, I have a magnet 345 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,280 which just sits on my desk and works. 346 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,280 It doesn't need to be isolated from the environment. 347 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,680 So, if that's really the case, then you don't need a vacuum chamber. 348 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,080 You don't need your thermo flask. 349 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,640 Oh, man. 350 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:50,640 Wow. 351 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:56,760 So, the cost of this thing, depending on how much this room temperature material and process 352 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:03,040 would cost, it would like, we could remove 50% of the cost. 353 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,240 And wow, interesting. 354 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:11,760 Yeah, but again, almost in the realms of science fiction. 355 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,760 I feel the feeling. 356 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,360 HTS materials were discovered when? 357 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:22,800 In the early 80s, mid 80s, something like that, and even today, right? 358 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:23,800 2024. 359 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,160 And do we really see lots of HTS machines out there? 360 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,160 Not as many as I would have expected. 361 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:30,640 There's so many challenges. 362 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:37,560 So, getting to room temperature superconductors, how long will it take to get there? 363 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:38,560 Who knows? 364 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:44,800 But like we just said, with AI, quantum computing and such like, and whatever the next bit of 365 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:51,400 technology is in terms of material development, it could halve the time to get to room temperature 366 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,400 superconductors. 367 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:53,400 Maybe. 368 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,640 It's all guesswork, of course, at the minute. 369 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,640 Interesting. 370 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:04,600 Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. 371 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:05,600 That's beautiful. 372 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:16,440 There's, again, I feel like the big thing that we say in fusion is that it's all engineering. 373 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,440 It's all engineering. 374 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:26,760 How do you approach an over the top difficult engineering challenge? 375 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,320 You clearly seek it, but how do you approach it? 376 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,760 Yeah, how I've always approached engineering challenges like that. 377 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,960 And you know, whether it's to do with a conventional motor generator or a wind turbine generator 378 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,760 or superconducting machine, always start with the end objective. 379 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:51,760 You know, what do you want your machine or your component to do? 380 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,760 Number one, what is its operating environment? 381 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,760 You know, how is it going to be used? 382 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,680 So if you take a superconducting wind turbine generator, for example, is it going to be 383 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:03,680 land based? 384 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,600 Is it going to be offshore? 385 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,480 So you start out, I think, with that final objective. 386 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,600 Then I've always kind of worked backwards from there to say, OK, to get to that objective 387 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,880 in this time scale, what technology building blocks do I need? 388 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,600 So if I take again the superconducting wind turbine generator, as an example, the offshore 389 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:32,160 machine, one of the key building blocks there is an extremely reliable, pretty much maintenance 390 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,920 free cryo cooler, OK, to be able to cool the superconducting machines. 391 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,880 So do we have that today? 392 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,600 I would say we are nearly there. 393 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:46,760 There are lots of laboratory based cryo coolers available on the market today, commercially 394 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:47,960 available. 395 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:54,400 But how are they going to operate in an environment where you have wind, you've got sea salt, 396 00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:00,120 you've got spray, you've got vibrations, crazy temperatures, really high temperatures and 397 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,600 really cold temperatures. 398 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,640 How is it going to operate reliably in that environment? 399 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,960 So that's one of the key technology building blocks. 400 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:15,160 And then I carry on back down that systems engineering path to say, OK, what other technology 401 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,120 building blocks are we missing today? 402 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:24,880 Can we use technology that we've already proven and apply it to our machine or do we need 403 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,320 to develop something that's completely new? 404 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:34,480 And it's the developing something that's completely new that may and will need the funding and 405 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,480 time to get right. 406 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:42,120 So I think pretty much every engineering challenge can be approached in that manner. 407 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:50,480 Yeah, it sounds like you're applying a little bit of game theory there as well. 408 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:51,480 Cool. 409 00:31:51,480 --> 00:32:00,400 What are the big challenges now for fusion energy then other than engineering supply 410 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,040 chains for sure, perhaps? 411 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:10,000 But what do you see as problems that we will need to solve over the next decade in order 412 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,520 to enable large scale fusion energy commercialization? 413 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,640 Yeah, that's a great question. 414 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:26,600 Funding obviously is key and to be able to obtain and keep funding flowing, I think we 415 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:32,960 have to be able to change people's perception of what fusion is all about. 416 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,840 OK, that's easier said than done. 417 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:41,800 If you look at ETA and fusion's been around for a long time writing in papers and in books. 418 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,240 And of course, ETA has been going for a very long time. 419 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:52,480 But if you look at the costs and how they've escalated, political changes can affect funding 420 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,280 and people's perceptions of fusion. 421 00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,600 So I think that's very important really to get people on your side to be able to believe 422 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,880 in what you're trying to achieve. 423 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,520 And like you pointed out earlier, I think Priyanka, that we are in a very exciting situation 424 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,000 right now where there is a lot of interest in fusion. 425 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,480 There is for now at least funds that are available that we could use. 426 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:24,760 But if we cannot deliver in a suitable or in a reasonable time frame, then again, that 427 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,000 interest is going to wane in public. 428 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,360 And that really could be the stumbling block for us. 429 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,320 So yes, we do have the engineering challenges. 430 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,840 We're talking about materials which don't even maybe exist today. 431 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,200 And we're trying to make a higher field of machines, more compact machines. 432 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,800 So all those things certainly are huge challenges. 433 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:52,640 But I think one of the biggest challenges we have is folks' perception of fusion in 434 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,120 general. 435 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,000 Yeah. 436 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:08,840 And how would we go about convincing our brothers and sisters on this planet that this time 437 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,280 it's for real? 438 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,280 This time we can... 439 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,280 What's the... 440 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,280 Yeah. 441 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:22,520 What points should we make to these guys? 442 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,720 That's a really tough question to answer. 443 00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:27,920 I don't think I've got a complete answer for you there. 444 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:33,240 But really, people know what they know. 445 00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:36,960 We understand what technology we have today. 446 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,400 We understand the science that we have today. 447 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,920 We don't really fully understand what science and technology we might have in 20, 30, 40, 448 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,960 50 years time when we're talking about room temperature superconducting magnets. 449 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,960 So to start off, I think first of all, we have to have a realistic concept. 450 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,120 What do I mean by that? 451 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:02,060 So maybe we say, okay, how are we going to be developing our particular fusion machine? 452 00:35:02,060 --> 00:35:09,100 We are using knowledge, technology, science that we understand today, science that we've 453 00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:10,100 already proven. 454 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:15,400 So we start out with that building block, if you like. 455 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:21,520 And then we have to have a realistic and reliable set of steps to take us to the next great 456 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,520 breakthrough. 457 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:28,520 So we must always be open to, hey, if we come up with a new material, how can we use that 458 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,000 in our machine that we are designing? 459 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:37,240 So I think having that very realistic storyline, starting with where we are today with technology 460 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:42,460 and science that everyone understands and accepts, I think will go a long way towards 461 00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:46,520 convincing people that, hey, these guys know what they're talking about. 462 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:54,640 If we look at their plans, they're taking a very logical stepwise approach to the future. 463 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,280 I think that will go a long way towards convincing people. 464 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,400 I feel like we've done that at Chronos. 465 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,560 I think I wanted to text you the other day. 466 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,520 We got our patent for smart approved by the USPTO, by the way. 467 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,520 Like this is awesome. 468 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:11,520 Oh, great. 469 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:21,560 And you remember from our board meetings that we've kind of selected our design based on 470 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,280 what's tried and true and kind of what works. 471 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:33,600 So we've obviously, it's like magnetic confinement, HTS magnets. 472 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:42,240 The only thing that I think we have an uphill battle on is the helium three fusion, which 473 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:49,600 Dr. Kulsinski has been helping us figure out the plasma engineering aspects of that since 474 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:50,600 December. 475 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:57,920 But I feel like we've very much sought out to build something that's been proved out. 476 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,840 You can contradict me completely with everything that I said. 477 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:15,640 So what is your then what would be the fusion energy device that is best suited for large 478 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,920 scale commercialization then? 479 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:23,240 Yeah, I don't know whether I've got a great answer for that. 480 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:25,680 I don't think anyone does. 481 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,360 I was hoping I could throw you off. 482 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:34,600 Yeah, I mean, if I think back to the days when people are building huge power stations 483 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:41,360 where they're coal fired, oil fired on nuclear power stations, you know, really, if you again 484 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,160 coming back to the systems engineering approach where you say, okay, what's my final objective? 485 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:52,280 Do I want to be able to have essentially a power station in the middle of a city which 486 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:59,760 is providing reliable, clean energy to the public, start off with that objective and 487 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,920 then what does that tell you in terms of constraints? 488 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:09,160 It may say, okay, you need it to be compact, you need it to be safe, you need it to have 489 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,480 great shielding. 490 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:19,760 And that may then drive the internal workings of your fusion machine, right? 491 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,320 You know, determination of what the internal workings might be, whether it's helium-3, 492 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,920 whether it's helium deuterium or something else. 493 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,520 So that's how we got to start. 494 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:37,480 But like you pointed out very correctly, we've started out, I think, with a concept that 495 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,040 people accept and say, hey, look, a lot of that technology has already been proven. 496 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:47,120 Okay, the guys are here at Kronos are pushing the envelope in certain areas, but it's not 497 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:52,760 impossible to see that they could do what they say they're going to do. 498 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,400 And then from there, you take on the next step, right? 499 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,680 Talk about helium-3 and so on. 500 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:03,960 So I think this stepwise approach, I think, is a very important way to do it. 501 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,840 Yeah. 502 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,480 And we also have a relatively leisure timeline. 503 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:14,320 So I think we want to take our time and figure all this stuff out. 504 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,440 How long have you been a member of IEEE? 505 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:18,440 How does that work? 506 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,120 Do you just, do all engineers just join? 507 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,960 Because that seems to be the case. 508 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:29,560 I don't know about all engineers joining. 509 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:34,160 I actually joined the UK branch. 510 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,240 It's called the IET back in the UK when I was a student. 511 00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:40,440 So I became a student member. 512 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:47,760 And the reason we kind of did that was, I guess you get access to journals, publications, 513 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,680 you get to meet and work with people in that particular field. 514 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,400 And I just kept my membership going over the years. 515 00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:01,880 And I found that by being a member either of the IET in the UK or the IEEE here in the 516 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:08,600 States, you get to sit on review boards, you get pretty much first access to publications, 517 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:14,520 you know, folks writing papers, and you get to see their work, you get to comment and 518 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,840 edit their work, you get to interact with them. 519 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,000 And that's very interesting and exciting. 520 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,560 You see all the new, you know, the younger generation coming out, the new stuff that 521 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,880 they're working on, which is extremely exciting and interesting. 522 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,680 So I think that's one of the things that drove me to join these professional institutions. 523 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:43,160 The other is you get to maybe not quite shape how the younger generation comes up, but you 524 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:52,920 get to maybe provide them with some guidance and mentorship, either via, you know, direct 525 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,000 reviewing of their papers or with direct interaction with them. 526 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,680 And I've done both in the past. 527 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:08,680 Yeah, how do we inspire young people to get into magnets then, Ruben? 528 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:09,880 How do we make it exciting? 529 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,600 I mean, there are so many applications. 530 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,600 We can shoot things into spaces using magnets. 531 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,680 Right, right. 532 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,040 I mean, I think, you know, electrical engineering in particular, and of course, I always talk 533 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,600 about electrical engineering because that's what I am, right? 534 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,200 It's such a hugely wide field. 535 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:35,640 You know, you've talked about biomedical engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering. 536 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,440 All these are very, very huge fields. 537 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,920 And just within electrical engineering itself, you know, magnets really is, I wouldn't say 538 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,040 it's a small part of electrical engineering, but certainly it's an important part. 539 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:54,320 And I think just getting the young folk interested in engineering in general, I think, is a huge 540 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,520 thing. 541 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,960 And you could do it in a number of ways. 542 00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,600 One of the things that we do here at Jefferson Lab, for example, and I think a lot of the 543 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,480 national labs do this, and I think private companies do it as well, is reaching out to 544 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:13,960 the local community in high schools, for example, local universities, get them involved, bring 545 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:19,560 them into the lab, show them the exciting things that a national lab does in terms of 546 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:25,480 research, development, experiments that physicists are carrying out. 547 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:31,680 And I think that excites people a lot, the students coming in to see what we're doing. 548 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,840 So I think that's the first step. 549 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,880 Secondly, is being very open with them. 550 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:44,000 They will have lots of questions, so be free about sharing your experience with them. 551 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:50,000 And that's how it starts, you know, at a very young age, I think, at least that's how I 552 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,480 got into it. 553 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:57,760 Yeah, I feel like our national labs, I'm so proud of them. 554 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:04,000 I'm just so proud, like, because, you know, there's so much political turmoil, like we're 555 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,520 on the precipice of World War III and, you know, school shootings and whatnot, but the 556 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,800 national labs, you know, they're winning every day, like they're doing what we're supposed 557 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:15,800 to be doing. 558 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,920 And it keeps me optimistic. 559 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,640 You've really been part of a lot of breakthroughs, Ruben. 560 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:32,000 So kind of just last question, what is like the biggest breakthrough that you've worked 561 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,480 on that you're very proud of? 562 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,280 And what's next for Ruben? 563 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:42,000 What's the next breakthrough that you're excited to see come to fruition? 564 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:48,240 Yeah, I don't know whether I would call it a breakthrough because of being in the field 565 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:49,400 for such a long time. 566 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,720 It's almost like a natural progression for me. 567 00:43:52,720 --> 00:44:00,200 But at Jefferson Lab, and I joined Jefferson Lab in 2013, I think, they were already like 568 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:08,080 part way through full upgrade of the accelerator at the lab here in Virginia, you know, increasing 569 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:14,120 the energy of the electron beam, which would then enable a whole new branch of physics 570 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,160 to be experimented with. 571 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,680 So and that involved a lot of superconducting magnets in the experimental halls. 572 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,120 We've got four experimental halls here at the lab. 573 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,080 And each hall has its own specialty in terms of experimental nuclear physics. 574 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:38,960 So getting involved in that, helping to drive that project to completion was, I think, personally 575 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:45,320 for me, I think that was an eye opener as to how these really talented people could 576 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,880 work so well together. 577 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,640 And of course, it wasn't just a national project. 578 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,680 We had collaborators from around the world contributing to this project. 579 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,120 And of course, that machine, of course, has now been upgraded. 580 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,760 It's been running since 2018, 2019. 581 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:09,640 It's producing fantastic results, which we have been publishing several papers a year 582 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,720 on these experiments. 583 00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:23,000 And producing PhD in nuclear physics, PhDs here in the States, all from Jefferson Labs. 584 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:30,640 So I think being part of that community, being able to provide equipment for the next generation 585 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:37,400 of young scientists, I think I would consider that a huge breakthrough. 586 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:46,600 What kind of results do you publish with the electron beam accelerator? 587 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:47,600 Just curious. 588 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:48,600 Right. 589 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:57,320 So Jefferson Labs' expertise really is delving into the nucleus, protons, neutrons, looking 590 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:04,600 at quarks, gluons that hold everything together, understanding the nature of matter. 591 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,600 So that really is what we're doing. 592 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,920 Really delving into the nucleus itself. 593 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,920 And recently, what I say recently, maybe the last couple of years, we've even published 594 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:20,800 papers on measuring the radius of a proton, for example. 595 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:27,920 Now to the layman, the man in the street, you could ask quite rightly, how is this relevant 596 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:28,920 to me? 597 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,680 So maybe measuring the radius of a proton is not entirely relevant to the man in the 598 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:39,880 street, but there are lots of spin-offs that come out of nuclear physics experiments. 599 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:45,160 And one of the huge spin-offs is being able to tackle cancer. 600 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:52,320 So using essentially an accelerator to be able to target cancer cells in a human patient 601 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,400 very, very successfully. 602 00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:04,000 So that's, I think, very obvious, maybe not obvious to everyone, but a really useful spin-off 603 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,520 that's come out of the nuclear physics work that we've done here at Jefferson Lab. 604 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,800 My God, how does that work? 605 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:20,320 Are you going to make a compact version of this, like an MRI machine, and house it in 606 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:26,680 the hospital, or do you take a sample from a patient and take it to the lab? 607 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,160 So these machines already exist. 608 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:33,680 In fact, down here in Hampton Roads, we've got a machine that does exactly that, and 609 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,440 there are machines being built all over the world to do this. 610 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:42,360 As you might imagine, these machines aren't as compact as we'd like them to be. 611 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,320 They are the size of a house, so they're extremely expensive. 612 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:53,120 The treatment is extremely expensive, so we're working to maybe reduce cost, maybe reduce 613 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,920 size, but nevertheless, the core technology will still be there. 614 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:05,600 In fact, we've got experts here at the lab who regularly advise on producing more of 615 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,640 these facilities worldwide. 616 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,520 What's next for me, though? 617 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,360 Well, I think probably fusion. 618 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,880 Like I said, I've been dabbling with fusion a little bit on the edges for quite a number 619 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:23,360 of years, all the way back to 1989, 1990. 620 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:29,480 Now of course, I've got the opportunity with Chronos to actually really get more involved, 621 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,120 be right in the heart of what we're trying to do in the fusion engineering field. 622 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,840 So that is a truly exciting time. 623 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:37,840 Wow. 624 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,300 Yeah, I can't wait. 625 00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:45,080 It's an exciting future, and you're on the forefront of so many things, Ruben. 626 00:48:45,080 --> 00:49:12,080 Thank you so much for doing this.