WEBVTT 00:00:09.289 --> 00:00:12.650 Welcome to another episode of the Kronos Fusion 00:00:12.650 --> 00:00:16.890 Energy Podcast. I am Priyanka Ford, the founder 00:00:16.890 --> 00:00:20.769 of Kronos Fusion Energy, and today we have an 00:00:20.769 --> 00:00:26.129 extraordinary guest with us, Carl Wegel. My mentor, 00:00:26.870 --> 00:00:29.910 founding partner at Kronos, and the lead designer 00:00:29.910 --> 00:00:33.990 of our patented Kronos Smart Fusion Energy Generators. 00:00:35.340 --> 00:00:38.619 Carl has an impressive career that spans over 00:00:38.619 --> 00:00:41.679 five decades with extensive experience in the 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:45.340 design and development of compact, ultra -high 00:00:45.340 --> 00:00:49.100 -field tokamak pathways for commercial fusion 00:00:49.100 --> 00:00:53.859 energy. His journey began at MIT, where he worked 00:00:53.859 --> 00:00:58.240 closely with Dr. Bruce Montgomery on the 14 Tesla 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:01.479 toroidal field magnet for the groundbreaking 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:06.549 Alcatore C tokamak. This early work laid the 00:01:06.549 --> 00:01:10.269 foundation for Carl's deep understanding of high 00:01:10.269 --> 00:01:14.969 -field tokamaks and led to his role heading the 00:01:14.969 --> 00:01:18.890 magnet division at Inesco, a pioneering fusion 00:01:18.890 --> 00:01:24.170 startup based in San Diego. There, he engineered 00:01:24.170 --> 00:01:29.469 powerful 30 Tesla, Omnic heating and 16 Tesla 00:01:29.469 --> 00:01:34.670 toroidal field magnets, designs that with sufficient 00:01:34.670 --> 00:01:38.829 funding could have been among the first power 00:01:38.829 --> 00:01:44.209 -generating tokamaks in the world. Carl's influence 00:01:44.209 --> 00:01:49.489 didn't stop there. In 2020, he became the senior 00:01:49.489 --> 00:01:52.890 magnet designer at Commonwealth Fusion Systems, 00:01:53.989 --> 00:01:57.450 a role that further solidified his status as 00:01:57.450 --> 00:02:02.109 the leader in the fusion energy community. Today, 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:06.540 As the primary architect of Kronos' smart fusion 00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:10.259 generators, Carl is guiding our team towards 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:15.280 commercial fusion energy. In this episode, we 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:18.759 dwell into Carl's extensive experience and learn 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:22.259 about the challenges and rewards of working in 00:02:22.259 --> 00:02:26.210 fusion energy. we'll explore how Carl's journey 00:02:26.210 --> 00:02:30.150 led him to Kronos and the innovative work he's 00:02:30.150 --> 00:02:34.189 doing with our smart generators. We'll discuss 00:02:34.189 --> 00:02:37.949 the importance of superconductors in modern technology, 00:02:38.669 --> 00:02:41.629 the challenges of fusion energy commercialization, 00:02:42.250 --> 00:02:47.530 and Carl's vision for the future. This conversation 00:02:47.530 --> 00:02:50.710 is a unique opportunity. to understand the mind 00:02:50.710 --> 00:02:54.710 of a true fusion energy pioneer and his perspective 00:02:54.710 --> 00:02:59.330 on the direction of sustainable energy. I could 00:02:59.330 --> 00:03:04.449 not have gotten Kronos off the ground if it was 00:03:04.449 --> 00:03:08.330 not for Carl. I am forever grateful for his expertise, 00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:11.810 guidance, and mentorship in helping me establish 00:03:11.810 --> 00:03:16.819 and grow Kronos Fusion Energy. So sit back. and 00:03:16.819 --> 00:03:19.719 get ready to be inspired by one of the leading 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:23.860 minds in the fusion energy field. Carl Wegel's 00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:27.699 story is one of dedication, innovation, and a 00:03:27.699 --> 00:03:30.819 relentless pursuit of a cleaner and more sustainable 00:03:30.819 --> 00:03:34.479 world. Here's my co -founder at Kronos Fusion 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:42.520 Energy, Dr. Carl Wegel. Carl, why fusion? Why 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:48.900 bother at all? An idealist, and I've been very 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:54.780 much a climate realist, and I want to find a 00:03:54.780 --> 00:03:58.819 solution before man -time burns up the planet. 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:04.780 The inclusion of energy appears to be, I thought, 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:11.099 potentially the most successful, and the one 00:04:11.099 --> 00:04:13.860 with the greatest challenge, and I love challenge, 00:04:13.900 --> 00:04:16.920 so here I am. Right, yeah, it's definitely fun 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:22.019 doing difficult things. When you got started, 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.139 did you get started at MIT or were you somewhere 00:04:25.139 --> 00:04:28.420 before that and you went to MIT? I started at 00:04:28.420 --> 00:04:32.819 MIT in the summer of my sophomore year in the 00:04:32.819 --> 00:04:36.439 same location where my twin brother Bob had started 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:40.040 the year before. That was the best time for me. 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:45.420 He was one of the best inventors in my life. 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.000 He was also in my career. I was so enamored with 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:57.100 his work and admired his work and enjoyed helping 00:04:57.100 --> 00:05:04.399 him. And he more than simply returned the favor. 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:09.819 So back at the tender age of 13, I was... impressed 00:05:09.819 --> 00:05:13.480 with designing all of the magnets of Alcatur 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:17.480 C, which is still the world's record holder for 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:22.379 highest magnetic field. So I was really, really 00:05:22.379 --> 00:05:25.920 grateful for the chance to work with Alcatur 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:32.899 C at MIT. Yeah. So Alcatur C, does it still hold 00:05:32.899 --> 00:05:36.350 a record? I think it still holds a record. It 00:05:36.350 --> 00:05:39.730 still holds the record at the highest central 00:05:39.730 --> 00:05:45.889 magnetic field of about 14 Tesla. What was JET 00:05:45.889 --> 00:05:50.430 in, do you know? Oh, much, much lower. It was 00:05:50.430 --> 00:05:55.629 a far larger machine, but it was scarcely half 00:05:55.629 --> 00:06:00.209 that of Dr. Tracy. Dr. Tracy was a small machine, 00:06:00.470 --> 00:06:06.129 a toy, but it said... It sent not only the record 00:06:06.129 --> 00:06:09.629 high -spec night field, but for a while, health 00:06:09.629 --> 00:06:15.389 records showed that the H -mode of plasma was 00:06:15.389 --> 00:06:19.230 possible in terms of the scale. It was either 00:06:19.230 --> 00:06:25.389 A -squared R or R -squared A, depending on the 00:06:25.389 --> 00:06:28.589 detail with which one it sent the plasma results. 00:06:33.499 --> 00:06:38.379 That is also the baseline design for our generator 00:06:38.379 --> 00:07:01.470 at Kronos, correct? a great proponent of dimensional 00:07:01.470 --> 00:07:06.269 analysis, where one selects the variables such 00:07:06.269 --> 00:07:10.769 that they are non -dimensional. And once they're 00:07:10.769 --> 00:07:13.930 non -dimensional, then you can apply any exponent 00:07:13.930 --> 00:07:19.850 you want to, which is the value of non -dimensionalizing 00:07:19.850 --> 00:07:24.870 the system. And my dear wish, there were a lot 00:07:24.870 --> 00:07:30.790 that was done in terms of non -dimensional. Components. 00:07:31.069 --> 00:07:34.189 This is the one that's the first vital application 00:07:34.189 --> 00:07:37.930 to artificial intelligence. One of the things 00:07:37.930 --> 00:07:42.329 that AI does is you tell it many times. It's 00:07:42.329 --> 00:07:49.290 never been deep into a data that humans just 00:07:49.290 --> 00:07:53.149 ignore or fail to notice what it's telling you. 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:58.060 And artificial intelligence can take the time 00:07:58.060 --> 00:08:00.579 that humans can, because they can do it a million 00:08:00.579 --> 00:08:09.500 times faster. And that cooks out the information 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:13.980 we need. And then I'm told that one of the areas 00:08:13.980 --> 00:08:18.060 where artificial intelligence is supreme... is 00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:20.660 in computer programming and that there are a 00:08:20.660 --> 00:08:24.420 lot of computer programming jobs that are in 00:08:24.420 --> 00:08:29.720 jeopardy because of that. Yeah and a lot of like 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:31.899 the other jobs like the project management aspects 00:08:31.899 --> 00:08:37.419 of it. I remember writing 400 page like functional 00:08:37.419 --> 00:08:40.740 design documents when I was at Edison or Disney 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:43.480 where I like wrote the entire design end to end. 00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:47.200 And it took me so long. And now I feel like if 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:50.340 I had Chad GPT the way that I use it now, had 00:08:50.340 --> 00:08:52.919 I had it back then, man, I don't know where I 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:56.019 would have been. Material science, I think, is 00:08:56.019 --> 00:08:59.360 going to be also very impactful for us, like 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:03.539 the advent of AI in quantum computing for coming 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:08.059 up with new materials. Very excited to see that, 00:09:08.419 --> 00:09:11.200 especially superconducting materials. It's going 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:16.139 to change the world. You know this. I mean MIT 00:09:16.139 --> 00:09:43.899 is on the forefront of all of this. Yeah, Paul 00:09:43.899 --> 00:09:49.419 is amazing. Tell me about Inesco, Carl. What, 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:55.279 when you, how far? Inesco was in business from 00:09:55.279 --> 00:10:07.100 1980 to 1984 and they were formed on the ideas 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:13.129 of Robert Bouchard who decided that At that time, 00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:16.690 there were no high -temperature superconductors, 00:10:17.190 --> 00:10:23.049 so we said, well, the field improves performance 00:10:23.049 --> 00:10:27.230 by an exponent 4. That is, the performance is 00:10:27.230 --> 00:10:31.210 proportional to the field, to the horsepower. 00:10:32.190 --> 00:10:34.970 And as a consequence, we'll make the hot air 00:10:34.970 --> 00:10:40.330 with whatever way we can, which is using... using 00:10:40.330 --> 00:10:46.850 copper. So his idea was to build the core center 00:10:46.850 --> 00:10:50.690 of the vacuum vessel and surround it with copper 00:10:50.690 --> 00:10:57.909 coils and run the copper coils at high temperature 00:10:57.909 --> 00:11:01.490 and then run coolant through it and then the 00:11:01.490 --> 00:11:04.669 coolant would extract the heat generated in the 00:11:04.669 --> 00:11:07.669 copper and convert it back into electricity. 00:11:07.870 --> 00:11:12.210 and would also, the copper would be heated primarily 00:11:12.210 --> 00:11:17.070 by neutrons flying out from the plasma chamber 00:11:17.070 --> 00:11:25.110 and the neutrons would explode not by a wasteful 00:11:25.110 --> 00:11:30.389 barrier, a wasteful shielding, but rather use 00:11:30.389 --> 00:11:33.590 copper itself as the shielding, the TF coils, 00:11:34.509 --> 00:11:41.120 and you could... extract the heat from the neutrons, 00:11:41.179 --> 00:11:47.240 run it through a conventional rotating generator 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:52.500 and generate electricity. The team was assembled 00:11:52.500 --> 00:11:58.659 in San Diego, Ohio, California. And for four 00:11:58.659 --> 00:12:03.320 years, the team designed PF coils that were operating 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:08.370 at 60 Tesla. The only kitting system was operating 00:12:08.370 --> 00:12:15.049 at 30 Tesla. And if the full funding had become 00:12:15.049 --> 00:12:20.490 available in a timely manner, it probably would 00:12:20.490 --> 00:12:28.289 be generating fusion today. And it might well 00:12:28.289 --> 00:12:32.629 be worth a near development of that same type, 00:12:32.730 --> 00:12:37.600 because... The cost of these machines was quite 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:44.059 low. It was just conventional. I kept the distress 00:12:44.059 --> 00:12:48.159 covered. What was the output of this machine? 00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:51.440 Is that comparable as well? Like, so low -cost 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:57.259 output? Yeah, it was planned for the 500 MW to 00:12:57.259 --> 00:13:03.429 1 EW output. Wow, that's pretty good. Of course, 00:13:03.649 --> 00:13:09.110 the problem would be getting a very high queue 00:13:09.110 --> 00:13:14.389 out of the machine since the wait for heat generated 00:13:14.389 --> 00:13:18.669 in the grid phones was a strong negative. But 00:13:18.669 --> 00:13:23.269 it certainly was the best idea at the time. And 00:13:23.269 --> 00:13:29.470 I think it's now being supplanted by HTS. Wow, 00:13:29.610 --> 00:13:34.440 interesting. But the general ideology of the 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:38.759 machine, I'm sure bits and pieces are being used 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:41.700 in other fusion energy systems. So maybe it was 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:46.179 unnecessary evolutionary stage in fusion. Well, 00:13:46.179 --> 00:13:51.940 since it ended up just being a paper study, and 00:13:51.940 --> 00:14:00.279 it was sort of an outlier that was in it. to 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:10.000 generate itself animosity so that I doubt that 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:15.600 anyone would really want to get through the glamour 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:23.899 of HTS. Right. Yeah, I understand that. So your 00:14:23.899 --> 00:14:28.110 work has consistently pushed boundaries. especially 00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:32.529 with magnet technology and fusion. What were 00:14:32.529 --> 00:14:37.649 the biggest challenges at this time, like I am 00:14:37.649 --> 00:14:40.909 thinking after Inesco, what were the big challenges 00:14:40.909 --> 00:14:45.610 for commercial fusion at that point and how much 00:14:45.610 --> 00:14:52.389 have we improved our chances now? I think the 00:14:52.389 --> 00:14:57.200 biggest challenge in the past has been generating 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:02.000 a very, very high magnetic field. And to many, 00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:05.679 much extent, that problem still exists today. 00:15:06.100 --> 00:15:13.740 It's been greatly deviated by HDS. A problem 00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:20.600 that has now appeared is that with HDS, HDS is 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:25.960 a brittle ceramic, and if one... If one stretches 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:34.820 HTS by more than 0 .4 or 0 .5%, it runs in danger 00:15:34.820 --> 00:15:39.139 for the microcracks, and the microcracks copy 00:15:39.139 --> 00:15:45.539 current density by half, I'm sorry, by 10%. And 00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:52.200 if one tries to... And the system with fire fields, 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:54.460 the strain gets higher, the stress gets higher, 00:15:54.659 --> 00:15:58.100 the strain gets higher. You have a losing battle 00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:03.120 that your current capacity of HTS gets to plummet. 00:16:03.299 --> 00:16:08.940 By about 0 .7 % to 1%, the current density is 00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:15.980 up to about half. So a new problem that I think... 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:20.100 Not enough people with the knowledge are unaware. 00:16:21.460 --> 00:16:26.659 Materials don't need to be strong. We got that 00:16:26.659 --> 00:16:33.179 problem solved. They have to be stiff. And there 00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:36.519 are only very, very, very few materials that 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:41.440 are stiff. Tungsten is very stiff. Modules twice 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:46.320 that of steel. But it's... very difficult to 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.279 work with, and it too is brittle. You try to 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:54.059 roll it to make it thinner, and it just fumbles, 00:16:54.139 --> 00:16:57.740 you know what I'm saying? And in order to keep 00:16:57.740 --> 00:17:01.899 it so held together, you have to roll it, not 00:17:01.899 --> 00:17:05.240 even at room temperature, but at liquid nitrogen 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:08.099 temperature. And even there, you don't gain a 00:17:08.099 --> 00:17:13.029 great deal. The other material is... carbon fiber, 00:17:13.289 --> 00:17:17.009 it too has a modulus of heat. It can have a modulus 00:17:17.009 --> 00:17:22.910 of heat, at least twice that of steel. And that's 00:17:22.910 --> 00:17:26.549 the material that we plan to be using. In the 00:17:26.549 --> 00:17:35.990 wings, there's materials like graphene and similar 00:17:35.990 --> 00:17:42.259 nanotubes, and those can be developed. have an 00:17:42.259 --> 00:17:47.519 affordable cost, they will eventually supplant 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:52.799 that graphene as the safest material known as 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:58.619 far as I know. And we have funding for the Graphene 00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:03.579 Council as one of our host consultants. Right, 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:10.099 we spoke to that, yeah. Also, you know, our without 00:18:10.099 --> 00:18:12.579 naming the company, our partner that we've been 00:18:12.579 --> 00:18:16.819 working with that converts biomass to jet fuel 00:18:16.819 --> 00:18:21.039 also would like to convert biomass to carbon 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:25.259 fiber using fusion as the heat source. So there 00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:28.380 could be like a cyclical arrangement that we 00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:30.740 actually kind of discussed that when we signed 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:34.720 our MOUs where we would buy back the carbon fiber 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:41.920 from that. It's pretty cool. Yeah, and who knows 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.319 what other material will come through, you know, 00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:51.420 that Google AI designed 380 ,000 material compositions 00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:56.720 using quantum computing. So, you never know what's 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:04.119 possible. The companies are generating these 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:08.579 exquisite materials. I mean, not by the old -fashioned 00:19:08.579 --> 00:19:13.559 trial and error, but rather by the computer simulation, 00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:19.720 the computer codes that tell exactly the orbits 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:24.160 of the electrons as they swirl around the nucleus 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:28.039 and the interaction of the electrons with the 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:34.559 universe towards it, and then tell you which 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:39.660 material has the highest melting point not only 00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:44.380 in the world, but probably in the universe, and 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:49.440 a family of other ones that have a melting point 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:53.779 that approaches that, but are perhaps made with 00:19:53.779 --> 00:19:59.059 much lower cost materials. But there's the half 00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:04.859 the impact of nitrite. Nitrite is the current 00:20:05.309 --> 00:20:09.450 and probably be the permanent victor in that 00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:17.470 race. And we have collaboration with them. So 00:20:17.470 --> 00:20:26.190 we're keeping our eyes open to all of the world's 00:20:26.190 --> 00:20:28.849 best materials and the people who are developing 00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:32.170 them. Yeah, no, we definitely want those partnerships. 00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:37.109 We want, we need to drill it into the heads of 00:20:37.109 --> 00:20:40.490 young people that material sciences is like an 00:20:40.490 --> 00:20:44.710 exciting thing to get into. I think it's arguably 00:20:44.710 --> 00:20:49.069 the most exciting thing. I agree, yes. I think 00:20:49.069 --> 00:20:54.490 you should do much, much to the side. Oh my God, 00:20:54.630 --> 00:20:58.329 yes. And also, you know, payload is like the, 00:20:58.329 --> 00:21:01.769 is a big, big factor in the rocket equation. 00:21:02.490 --> 00:21:06.250 And if we can make lighter materials, which is 00:21:06.250 --> 00:21:09.309 what a lot of material companies are after, we 00:21:09.309 --> 00:21:12.970 can make space travel, multi -planetary civilizations, 00:21:13.029 --> 00:21:15.730 we can make all that possible. All of that is 00:21:15.730 --> 00:21:20.710 engineering and materials right now. It's a collaboration. 00:21:21.069 --> 00:21:25.650 The carbon fiber that we plan to use was in fact 00:21:25.650 --> 00:21:31.250 developed as an aircraft of use. Oh, okay. That's 00:21:31.250 --> 00:21:37.880 so awesome. It was developed not merely for its 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:42.079 lightweight and structural properties, but also 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:45.480 that it could survive a lightning strike much 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:53.140 better than the available carbon fibers. Carl, 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:58.039 in all of these projects that you worked on building 00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:02.400 various fusion energy generators out there. How 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:06.640 many people is too many people in a team? When 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:29.980 does it become bureaucratic and cumbersome? have 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:34.980 too much interplay between people that you can't 00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:45.039 make much further progress. Plus, well, you begin 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:50.279 to get all down and you begin to get overly cautious 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:57.089 and you run the risk of... not being able, that 00:22:57.089 --> 00:23:02.230 you're unwilling to take any risks at all. And 00:23:02.230 --> 00:23:07.269 when you build a machine, you've got to be taking 00:23:07.269 --> 00:23:18.029 some risks or you're not at the level of performance 00:23:18.029 --> 00:23:23.009 the fusion seems to demand that you be. Yeah. 00:23:23.369 --> 00:23:26.869 I see where you're going with this. It basically 00:23:26.869 --> 00:23:30.150 becomes cumbersome and bureaucratic after like 00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:34.109 a 500 person point where decisions are slowed 00:23:34.109 --> 00:23:37.470 down and progress is almost slowed down because 00:23:37.470 --> 00:23:39.609 there are too many hinds in the pot. That makes 00:23:39.609 --> 00:23:43.430 sense to me. Nine people is low. That is shockingly 00:23:43.430 --> 00:23:55.200 low. Shockingly low. smaller than nine. And even 00:23:55.200 --> 00:24:01.319 Kamua Fusion, it was just a small team assembled 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:09.500 from survivors of Alcatraz -Simon. When you have 00:24:09.500 --> 00:24:14.400 a team of nine, your idea is to have the top 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:18.299 nine people in the world. And when you have a 00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:22.440 team of 40, You can want a team of the top 40 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.920 people in the world, either people who are at 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:32.460 the pinnacle of knowledge, or having passionate 00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:36.380 young people who devote all of their energies 00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:41.480 to working on it. And when you assemble a 40 00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:46.200 to 80 reset, and when you get a team beyond 80, 00:24:47.859 --> 00:24:52.619 you're beginning There are no more top -level 00:24:52.619 --> 00:24:56.160 people in the world. You've got to be one of 00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:59.299 the ones who are willing to join you. And if 00:24:59.299 --> 00:25:03.559 you start adding people who are not top -level 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:08.559 people, they may very well not contribute to 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:13.940 the design. So why are they there? That you could 00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:17.500 have lackeys that you hire somebody because there's 00:25:17.500 --> 00:25:20.029 great computers. programming and they program 00:25:20.029 --> 00:25:23.250 whatever you tell them to, but they don't really 00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:26.490 fully understand what it is they're working on. 00:25:27.650 --> 00:25:34.950 And that's the whole level. Second level people, 00:25:35.730 --> 00:25:42.890 you need to sort of question their work because 00:25:42.890 --> 00:25:45.750 they may not know quite what they're doing and 00:25:45.750 --> 00:25:50.680 they need guidance. I understand. Okay, there's 00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:57.660 also the aspect of you may desperately need certain 00:25:57.660 --> 00:26:04.740 people for a certain span, but then are you obligated 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:13.019 to keep the people when they've chucked one lot 00:26:13.019 --> 00:26:17.980 of their expertise and that's... This is kind 00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:21.440 of why I picked the general business model that 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:25.660 we've been working on, Carl. We literally have... 00:26:25.630 --> 00:26:28.390 our ignition system that's being built by another 00:26:28.390 --> 00:26:31.170 company. We have our heat capture system on the 00:26:31.170 --> 00:26:34.269 other end built by another company. We have the 00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:36.930 magnet systems built by another startup that's 00:26:36.930 --> 00:26:39.170 coming out of Brookhaven National Labs. We have 00:26:39.170 --> 00:26:42.609 our red coat tape being built in Houston. So 00:26:42.609 --> 00:26:46.230 it's almost as if we just are the people that 00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:49.390 put the Lego pieces together and we're enabling 00:26:49.390 --> 00:26:51.769 an infrastructure of about 200 companies that 00:26:51.769 --> 00:26:54.250 would work with us in order to do these things 00:26:54.250 --> 00:26:58.960 because then not only do you have that flexibility 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.279 of your contractual agreement, you also enable 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:05.160 a large infrastructure, like an economic infrastructure, 00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:07.980 where the best people who do the best things, 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:10.920 you just buy it from them, rather than having 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:15.660 to build everything in -house. Yeah, sorry, go 00:27:15.660 --> 00:27:27.049 ahead. Anyway, moving on from that. What, what 00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:29.549 are you, what are you, what was like the big 00:27:29.549 --> 00:27:32.750 accomplishment in your life that, that like, 00:27:32.809 --> 00:27:35.630 you know, your parents would be proud of and 00:27:35.630 --> 00:27:56.849 like, what was that moment for you? Again, with 00:27:56.849 --> 00:28:02.450 my twin brother, we saved my mother $53 million 00:28:02.450 --> 00:28:08.390 that they had built a laboratory for integrated 00:28:08.390 --> 00:28:12.210 science and engineering, a BSAT building, which 00:28:12.210 --> 00:28:19.910 was almost $200 million. And they needed to magnetically 00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:25.589 shield the building because the building... Intelligently, 00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:30.309 or no, I'm not sure, had decided that the two 00:28:30.309 --> 00:28:34.109 were going to do all of their nanotechnology 00:28:34.109 --> 00:28:37.829 in this one building. And that meant using the 00:28:37.829 --> 00:28:42.170 two major tools of nanotechnology, one of which 00:28:42.170 --> 00:28:47.349 is very high magnetic field magnets, superconducting 00:28:47.349 --> 00:28:51.329 magnets with four dimensions or four inches is 00:28:51.329 --> 00:28:57.140 something that generated 814 Tesla. And in the 00:28:57.140 --> 00:29:00.259 room, they call them cells, in the cell next 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:04.400 door, they might have an electron microscope, 00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:09.140 which are sensitive to a field of billions of 00:29:09.140 --> 00:29:12.240 that field generated by the high -field magnets. 00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:19.400 And they needed to use a magnetic field called 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:24.660 new metal to... magnetize in such a way that 00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:30.380 it gets outside of the cell that had the high 00:29:30.380 --> 00:29:34.559 field magnet field. The field would plummet and 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.259 be low enough that they could put an electron 00:29:37.259 --> 00:29:41.119 microscope in the room next to it. And to do 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.400 so, it would require taking everything off the 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.359 walls of the building, putting on layers of this 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:54.210 new metal, and then putting the features on the 00:29:54.210 --> 00:30:00.250 wall again. The previous company had come up 00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:04.210 with an estimate of $54 million to do this in, 00:30:04.210 --> 00:30:10.130 I think, about 18 months. And we came in to co 00:30:10.130 --> 00:30:12.289 -operate the results to see whether we could 00:30:12.289 --> 00:30:16.769 do better. And after doing analysis with a... 00:30:16.809 --> 00:30:20.130 a code from Integrated Engineering Software, 00:30:20.789 --> 00:30:24.509 we were able to cut the amount of new metal required 00:30:24.509 --> 00:30:30.230 by 102 and therefore cut the cost from $54 million 00:30:30.230 --> 00:30:40.130 to $27 million. But, meanwhile, Bob and I were 00:30:40.130 --> 00:30:43.210 saying over and over again that using new metal 00:30:43.210 --> 00:30:48.400 was not the cheapest way to go. That the cheapest 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.640 way was to replace all of their high -field magnets 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:57.019 with replacement new magnets that were designed 00:30:57.019 --> 00:31:03.299 in a way that they generated nine to zero fringe 00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:06.339 field. Instead of the fringe field dropping off 00:31:06.339 --> 00:31:11.799 as R1 over R2 or R1 over R to the fifth, it to 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.009 drop it over as one of them. over R to the 11th 00:31:15.009 --> 00:31:19.130 or one over R to the 23rd power such that the 00:31:19.130 --> 00:31:24.910 magnetic field in adjacent cells was well below 00:31:24.910 --> 00:31:31.089 that tolerable by the microscope. And we didn't 00:31:31.089 --> 00:31:39.390 get a whole lot of acceptance by the physicists. 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:45.980 did get acceptance by the woman who was the founder 00:31:45.980 --> 00:31:54.039 of the project. So she listened to us and decided 00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:58.900 that that would be the way we go. But there was 00:31:58.900 --> 00:32:02.240 all this climber that would take too darn long. 00:32:02.859 --> 00:32:06.619 But they went to cryomagnetics in Tennessee and 00:32:06.619 --> 00:32:11.910 got a quote. million dollars for all of the mag