WEBVTT 00:00:09.580 --> 00:00:12.640 Welcome to the Chronos Fusion Energy podcast. 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:16.260 I'm Priyanka Ford, the founder of Chronos Fusion 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:18.739 Energy, and I'm thrilled to have you with us 00:00:18.739 --> 00:00:22.199 for today's episode. We're diving into the world 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:25.739 of nuclear technology with a guest whose extensive 00:00:25.739 --> 00:00:29.660 career has made him a leading figure in the industry. 00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:34.299 Joining me is Martin Owens, our chief strategy 00:00:34.299 --> 00:00:38.340 officer and board advisor at Chronos Fusion Energy. 00:00:39.630 --> 00:00:43.149 Martin has 35 years of experience in nuclear 00:00:43.149 --> 00:00:46.890 energy, from reactor development to project management, 00:00:47.070 --> 00:00:49.710 and he brings a unique perspective to the table. 00:00:51.670 --> 00:00:54.250 Martin's journey into nuclear energy has been 00:00:54.250 --> 00:00:57.570 anything but conventional. After earning his 00:00:57.570 --> 00:01:00.369 bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from 00:01:00.369 --> 00:01:04.560 Old Dominion University in 1984, He was on the 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:07.859 path to becoming a test pilot before his career 00:01:07.859 --> 00:01:12.379 took a turn into nuclear operations. His first 00:01:12.379 --> 00:01:16.780 role in the industry was the BWXT Nuclear Operations 00:01:16.780 --> 00:01:20.079 Group, where he helped develop reactors for the 00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:24.379 U .S. Navy. This pivotal experience laid the 00:01:24.379 --> 00:01:27.260 groundwork for a successful career in advanced 00:01:27.260 --> 00:01:32.150 nuclear technologies. In addition to his work 00:01:32.150 --> 00:01:35.969 at Cronos Fusion Energy, Martin holds a key position 00:01:35.969 --> 00:01:40.069 at Los Alamos National Laboratory as Senior Director 00:01:40.069 --> 00:01:43.849 of the Capital Project Execution Organization. 00:01:45.250 --> 00:01:49.609 His role at Los Alamos involves overseeing complex 00:01:49.609 --> 00:01:53.170 projects and ensuring the successful execution 00:01:53.170 --> 00:01:58.370 of capital initiatives. This dual responsibility 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:02.439 reflects his deep expertise and commitment to 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:05.519 pushing the boundaries of nuclear technologies. 00:02:07.739 --> 00:02:11.259 Martin's career includes notable roles at Arriva 00:02:11.259 --> 00:02:17.000 and GE Hitachi. At Arriva, he managed nuclear 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:20.280 reactor and fuel development programs, earning 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:25.120 a promotion to project director. At GE Hitachi, 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:30.419 he served as EPC director. leading large -scale 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:34.680 nuclear projects. His academic background is 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:38.560 complemented by an MBA in global management from 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:42.319 Ashford University, giving him a strategic outlook 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.379 on the industry's challenges and opportunities. 00:02:46.979 --> 00:02:50.340 Today, Martin plays a crucial role at Kronos 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:53.560 Fusion Energy, guiding our strategic direction 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:57.199 as we work towards commercializing fusion energy. 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:01.919 and achieving energy independence. In this episode, 00:03:02.340 --> 00:03:05.419 we'll explore Martin's career path, his insights 00:03:05.419 --> 00:03:08.360 into nuclear technology, and his views on the 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:12.199 future of fusion energy. We'll discuss his work 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:15.960 at Los Alamos, the challenges of nuclear regulation, 00:03:16.539 --> 00:03:19.919 and the innovative approach we're taking at Krimos 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:24.819 Fusion Energy. Martin is the person I go to with 00:03:24.819 --> 00:03:28.159 the heart to solve. Almost impossible problems 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:32.159 and he always finds a way to make things happen 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:40.300 Here's Martin Owens Okay, thanks for doing this 00:03:40.300 --> 00:03:47.560 Martin Yeah, we usually start these off by asking 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:51.240 like what got you into your field of specialty 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.199 and for you It's it's nuclear energy nuclear 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:59.860 operations What drew you into it? Well, you know, 00:03:59.860 --> 00:04:02.319 to be honest, it was kind of happenstance for 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:07.020 me. I wasn't quite sure what kind of career I 00:04:07.020 --> 00:04:09.479 was going to go into. Originally, I was really 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:13.979 headed to be a pilot and wanted to be a best 00:04:13.979 --> 00:04:18.180 pilot. And sort of I almost went in that direction. 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:21.680 And I got into the Air Force and a lot of different 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:25.279 other kinds of things. I kind of just all of 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:27.819 a sudden sort of changed my mind and I sort of 00:04:27.819 --> 00:04:31.959 started wondering what I was gonna do. And so 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:35.819 I had just gotten out of school. And so I was 00:04:35.819 --> 00:04:38.279 like, had one thing that came up and that was 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.959 I needed to pay some bills, okay? So I had to 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:45.939 get a job. And so I just happened to get a job. 00:04:46.980 --> 00:04:53.649 I got a couple offers and took a job. in Lynchburg, 00:04:54.009 --> 00:04:56.810 Virginia, with a company at that time was called 00:04:56.810 --> 00:04:59.430 Babcock and Wilcox at the Naval Nuclear Fuel 00:04:59.430 --> 00:05:03.069 Division. And I really never intended to get 00:05:03.069 --> 00:05:05.689 into nuclear. I mean, I thought about maybe going 00:05:05.689 --> 00:05:07.689 into nuclear, maybe that seemed kind of attractive 00:05:07.689 --> 00:05:14.730 to me. So I ended up sort of like in a role in 00:05:14.730 --> 00:05:19.689 nuclear, I didn't really expect to stay. I thought 00:05:19.689 --> 00:05:23.069 this would be a good first job. But as I got 00:05:23.069 --> 00:05:28.670 into it, I realized that this was really amazing 00:05:28.670 --> 00:05:34.889 technology and we were very, we were at the cusp 00:05:34.889 --> 00:05:38.290 of doing a lot of development and was a very 00:05:38.290 --> 00:05:42.310 dynamic program. And so that really appealed 00:05:42.310 --> 00:05:45.910 to me. And, you know, I just really got into 00:05:45.910 --> 00:05:49.269 the business of building nuclear power plants. 00:05:50.509 --> 00:05:56.269 That's how I ended up my start. The Navy has 00:05:56.269 --> 00:05:59.290 always been ahead of the game when it comes to 00:05:59.290 --> 00:06:05.029 nuclear energy. Why is that? Is that unlikely 00:06:05.029 --> 00:06:08.110 or is that just how it would have always been? 00:06:09.829 --> 00:06:13.490 Well, I think many things in this world get driven 00:06:13.490 --> 00:06:21.699 by the Defense Department. especially new technology 00:06:21.699 --> 00:06:25.600 tends to the applications of it you know tend 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.279 to come out in you know it's the same thing in 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:31.540 aircraft right so you have the Wright brothers 00:06:31.540 --> 00:06:34.040 who are but they were bicycle mechanics right 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.180 but pretty soon people started thinking about 00:06:37.180 --> 00:06:40.439 well gee can we use this um for the military 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:45.079 and uh so you had world war one and and they 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:48.180 started using aircraft and that's what i think 00:06:48.410 --> 00:06:52.029 drove that industry. Same thing with nuclear, 00:06:52.850 --> 00:06:57.170 you know, nuclear really started out in experimental 00:06:57.170 --> 00:07:02.069 land and of course everybody knows about Oppenheimer 00:07:02.069 --> 00:07:07.209 and atomic weapons and the technology got developed 00:07:07.209 --> 00:07:10.509 quite a bit there, but then there was this application 00:07:10.509 --> 00:07:13.610 of could we use this for power? Could we harness 00:07:13.610 --> 00:07:19.800 this? And really that all started with the nuclear 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:25.759 Navy and Admiral Rickover who had a vision of 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:30.540 how it could be applied to submarines. And he 00:07:30.540 --> 00:07:34.000 convinced a number of people including getting 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:41.879 the funding to develop it for power. And that 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:45.779 really sort of cast the die. if you will, of 00:07:45.779 --> 00:07:48.439 the direction of nuclear power very early on, 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:54.319 very rapid development of it. Wow. Yeah, nuclear 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:57.259 energy has an absolutely fascinating history. 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.120 Our DOE labs have done so much, especially Los 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:10.379 Alamos. So you were at ARIVA for a long time. 00:08:10.579 --> 00:08:17.660 What was ARIVA about? And how did, I'm just curious, 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:23.339 how did Fusion go from lab to commercial? Was 00:08:23.339 --> 00:08:26.240 it the same as what Fusion is trying to do in 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:27.879 that there are a couple of private companies 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:34.500 or? I'm curious. Yeah, so the companies that 00:08:34.500 --> 00:08:37.460 were heavily involved in developing nuclear power 00:08:37.460 --> 00:08:40.879 for the Navy was General Electric and Westinghouse. 00:08:41.289 --> 00:08:45.710 And so, and because they were power companies, 00:08:45.950 --> 00:08:48.649 right? They had developed, they were already 00:08:48.649 --> 00:08:53.470 into power, you know, in developing electricity. 00:08:54.250 --> 00:08:57.590 So that's how they got involved. And, you know, 00:08:57.690 --> 00:09:01.049 really Eisenhower, President Eisenhower had the 00:09:01.049 --> 00:09:04.649 Atoms for Peace initiative. He was sort of a 00:09:04.649 --> 00:09:08.929 visionary, I think, in that he wanted to really 00:09:08.929 --> 00:09:14.460 spread that nuclear energy across the globe. 00:09:15.220 --> 00:09:18.899 But these companies like General Electric, they 00:09:18.899 --> 00:09:22.580 were the first ones to commercialize nuclear 00:09:22.580 --> 00:09:29.659 power. I believe the first plant that produced 00:09:29.659 --> 00:09:33.440 electricity was in California. So it was a General 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:38.879 Electric plant. So that came out of their experience 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:43.240 in the nuclear Navy because they they had developed 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:48.299 that nose atomic power power lab or capital up 00:09:48.299 --> 00:09:51.299 in Schenectady New York there they were behind 00:09:51.299 --> 00:09:55.480 designing the reactors for the navy and then 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:57.519 they sort of just spawned that out to convert 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:02.779 the commercial world and so that's how that the 00:10:02.779 --> 00:10:06.799 commercial world got going we've been difficult 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:11.370 actually to if they didn't have that whole investment 00:10:11.370 --> 00:10:14.590 from the government to really, you know, develop 00:10:14.590 --> 00:10:17.529 the technology and then they could apply it to 00:10:17.529 --> 00:10:27.330 the commercial world. Yeah. So at this point, 00:10:27.610 --> 00:10:34.149 because GE is older than Fission Energy. Is that 00:10:34.149 --> 00:10:37.190 a true statement? Yeah, so GE was an established 00:10:37.190 --> 00:10:41.860 company. Right. Right. You got to think Edison, 00:10:42.299 --> 00:10:45.639 right? So, you know, the roots of General Electric 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:53.019 are back to Tom Edison and Westinghouse is like, 00:10:53.019 --> 00:10:55.460 you know, George Westinghouse. So they developed 00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:58.200 a lot of the electric motors, right? We talk 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:01.379 about things like alternating current motors 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:05.159 and all these kinds of things. And so, yes. And 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:11.299 so those companies, really were relied upon to 00:11:11.299 --> 00:11:14.259 have the expertise and engineering background, 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:18.620 but also the manufacturing base to be able to 00:11:18.620 --> 00:11:21.620 do those types of things. Yeah, that's a hard 00:11:21.620 --> 00:11:24.440 one to scale up. You can save a decent decade 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.440 if you work with an established company for that. 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:35.519 Yeah, that makes sense. How is Old Dominion University? 00:11:35.700 --> 00:11:39.710 Where is that, by the way? So that's in Norfolk, 00:11:40.090 --> 00:11:46.750 Virginia. And yeah, so I ended up at Old Dominion. 00:11:47.929 --> 00:11:50.970 The interesting thing about Old Dominion is that 00:11:50.970 --> 00:11:59.230 it's in very close proximity to Langley. And 00:11:59.230 --> 00:12:02.669 so there's a number of professors there involved 00:12:02.669 --> 00:12:07.370 in that. in NASA and doing a lot of that kind 00:12:07.370 --> 00:12:14.470 of work. So you get the benefit of that. Today, 00:12:15.049 --> 00:12:19.889 it's a very large university there. When I went, 00:12:19.950 --> 00:12:23.529 it was still kind of large, but it was more of 00:12:23.529 --> 00:12:29.330 a university that had a lot of people that commuted 00:12:29.330 --> 00:12:32.169 to it. So I was one of the few I think actually 00:12:32.169 --> 00:12:36.360 lived on campus. But yeah, I enjoyed my time 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:40.320 there. I got some interesting professors. Nice. 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.159 So mechanical, you did mechanical engineering 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:47.779 there, and that's before you got, you knew you 00:12:47.779 --> 00:12:51.600 weren't even going to get into fission. That's 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:54.399 right. So, you know, at the time I was thinking 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:57.960 about going to the Air Force, I thought that 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:00.240 mechanical engineering would be a really good 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.320 background for that. If you were to be getting 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.720 into things like being a test pilot or things 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.639 like that, you need to understand the engineering 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.940 of that. And mechanical engineering has always 00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:13.419 been thought of as sort of the broad -based engineering 00:13:13.419 --> 00:13:17.059 discipline that you can apply to a lot of different 00:13:17.059 --> 00:13:21.840 areas. So you can... you don't get too pigeonholed. 00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:26.139 You can apply that to a number of different industries. 00:13:27.179 --> 00:13:35.179 Right, so that's interesting. You did for fission, 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:40.460 when engineering was the biggest challenge for 00:13:40.460 --> 00:13:43.690 fission, you worked on that and now for fusion, 00:13:43.889 --> 00:13:45.870 we're very much thinking that when people say, 00:13:45.950 --> 00:13:48.370 what is your biggest challenge? I say engineering. 00:13:48.629 --> 00:13:52.649 It's an engineering challenge. So yeah, it's 00:13:52.649 --> 00:13:57.590 applicable. How do you think about the timing 00:13:57.590 --> 00:14:00.529 of that? Like I would just like to somehow draw 00:14:00.529 --> 00:14:04.049 that parallel between vision and fusion when 00:14:04.049 --> 00:14:08.169 it comes to like the physics be like just being 00:14:08.169 --> 00:14:15.440 in this in the precipice of this birth of this 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.039 new commercial technology that's been developed 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.860 in the lab for decades and decades and then. 00:14:22.659 --> 00:14:28.039 Well, yeah, you know, I think that's that's in 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:33.059 all really cutting edge sort of applications 00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:36.799 of technology. The real trick is how do you actually 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.600 make something that works? So in the lab you 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.870 can prove out you know, the physics of things 00:14:43.870 --> 00:14:49.889 and you can prove out, you know, formulas and 00:14:49.889 --> 00:14:53.330 how you explain things, but how you actually 00:14:53.330 --> 00:14:56.450 translate that into something that can work. 00:14:56.850 --> 00:14:59.570 So on the vision side of things, the nuclear 00:14:59.570 --> 00:15:04.610 Navy, a tremendous amount of money and technology 00:15:04.610 --> 00:15:08.850 and science behind that, but to actually develop, 00:15:08.850 --> 00:15:13.990 let's say, like materials. that will work for 00:15:13.990 --> 00:15:21.210 years under all kinds of really difficult conditions, 00:15:21.490 --> 00:15:26.490 whether it's heat pressure, being bombarded by 00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:31.830 fission, neutrons. and how do you actually make 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:34.710 something that can actually work is very, very 00:15:34.710 --> 00:15:37.470 difficult. I mean, it's one thing to where you 00:15:37.470 --> 00:15:39.389 can get close to it. You can say, yeah, a little 00:15:39.389 --> 00:15:41.590 bit more development here. We can actually, it'll 00:15:41.590 --> 00:15:44.190 work. But then to actually meet all the requirements 00:15:44.190 --> 00:15:49.389 and deliver something, that's a specialty unto 00:15:49.389 --> 00:15:56.870 itself. And so that was the leap of say, Rickover, 00:15:56.929 --> 00:15:59.820 you know, with the Nautilus. of actually, you 00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:02.200 know, being able to broadcast underway under 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:07.879 nuclear power. And the same thing as infusion. 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:12.000 It's no different in that. I think the physics 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.480 are understood, but it's now how do we develop 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.919 the materials that will withstand that? How do 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:22.600 we have the control systems? That's going to 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:27.559 be actually the hardest thing to accomplish. 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:31.080 So there's very close parallels of those kinds 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:35.639 of those things, but you know in today's world 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:39.980 We are we have so much more at hand Okay, so 00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:42.340 you know we have so many more exotic materials. 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:46.379 We have so many more computer programs that can 00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:49.860 They can calculate things way faster than they 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:52.519 did in the 50s with slide rules and very okay 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.399 kind of you know slow processing types of applications. 00:16:57.779 --> 00:17:01.419 So we should be faster. We should be better. 00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:07.500 And that's what I'm believing. Yeah, I agree 00:17:07.500 --> 00:17:15.779 with you. I think in terms of time scale, it's... 00:17:15.849 --> 00:17:19.309 I think building a fusion energy generator in 00:17:19.309 --> 00:17:23.470 about 12 years in like starting in 12 years We 00:17:23.470 --> 00:17:26.650 could be building one every like four years to 00:17:26.650 --> 00:17:29.269 five years would be the build time span if not 00:17:29.269 --> 00:17:33.250 shorter but what is that with fission like how 00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:36.829 many how many years does it take to build it 00:17:36.829 --> 00:17:41.589 and Then get the regulatory, you know licensing 00:17:41.589 --> 00:17:48.440 so to speak we should really In vision, you know, 00:17:48.460 --> 00:17:52.119 the technology exists and the engineering has 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:56.839 been really accomplished all the basics. It really 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:03.000 becomes more of a regulatory challenge. And really, 00:18:03.259 --> 00:18:09.259 it's really a little bit unfair because nuclear 00:18:09.259 --> 00:18:13.420 power has proven itself over decades to be safe. 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:23.079 and the rigor that technology has produced safety 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:29.460 systems and backup safety systems that control 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:35.539 that is there. But the regulatory framework these 00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:39.059 days is very difficult. I think it's maybe getting 00:18:39.059 --> 00:18:41.839 a little better because I think there are people 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:46.069 realizing in those regulatory bodies that they're 00:18:46.069 --> 00:18:50.049 really stifling the advancement of nuclear power. 00:18:50.089 --> 00:18:52.869 And if you look across the world, other countries 00:18:52.869 --> 00:18:56.549 are going much faster, right? You go to China, 00:18:56.589 --> 00:18:59.029 they've got many plants under construction there, 00:18:59.289 --> 00:19:01.630 and have developed plants. We in the United States 00:19:01.630 --> 00:19:05.750 have only two plants to show for that in recent 00:19:05.750 --> 00:19:08.329 history, and that's at Vogel there in Georgia, 00:19:08.710 --> 00:19:14.410 which are under Westinghouse. That took well 00:19:14.410 --> 00:19:19.089 over a decade, $30 billion. And many of those 00:19:19.089 --> 00:19:22.150 years were just trying to get the license to 00:19:22.150 --> 00:19:27.690 build it. Whereas years ago, that wasn't the 00:19:27.690 --> 00:19:32.569 case. But if you look at fission compared to 00:19:32.569 --> 00:19:37.970 fusion, the case for the safety basis for fusion. 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:41.109 is much more straightforward than vision, because 00:19:41.109 --> 00:19:48.549 you can vision, you can have a extended reaction, 00:19:48.609 --> 00:19:50.829 let's say that you've done controllable, you 00:19:50.829 --> 00:19:53.230 have to control, you can control it. You have 00:19:53.230 --> 00:19:55.970 to have many backup systems to make sure that 00:19:55.970 --> 00:20:00.809 you don't have a situation where you have a meltdown, 00:20:01.009 --> 00:20:03.930 which we all, that's a common term that people 00:20:03.930 --> 00:20:07.619 understand. But infusion, you don't have that. 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.940 Fusion, as you know, you have to maintain the 00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:17.220 fusion itself. You have to put energy in to sustain 00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:20.859 a fusion reaction. As soon as you let off the 00:20:20.859 --> 00:20:26.279 gas, it stops immediately. So that is a much 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:31.019 totally different way of licensing something. 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:37.529 And so really infusion, it's going to be more 00:20:37.529 --> 00:20:41.470 like accelerators or any source of radiation 00:20:41.470 --> 00:20:45.470 that you have to shield. And so as long as you 00:20:45.470 --> 00:20:49.269 can demonstrate that you have shielding in place 00:20:49.269 --> 00:20:53.869 while the fusion reaction is going on, that's 00:20:53.869 --> 00:20:59.670 gonna be the main driver, which is order of magnitude 00:20:59.670 --> 00:21:05.480 lower in... in complexity and also in being able 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:12.180 to demonstrate that. Right. I think we had some 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:16.299 good news for fusion. I want to say like mid 00:21:16.299 --> 00:21:18.539 last year, maybe it was a year and a half ago 00:21:18.539 --> 00:21:22.039 that the Nuclear Energy Commission out here in 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:24.579 the US would regulate fusion very differently. 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:30.259 But then I recently found out that in California, 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.519 Even though you know, there's like they're very 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:38.119 profusion. We are very profusion we also have 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:41.200 Regulations for new for neutrons and and how 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:43.460 neutrons are produced and the safety regulations 00:21:43.460 --> 00:21:49.539 for it. It's a high threshold to pass so We were 00:21:49.539 --> 00:21:52.519 having a lot of conversations between a neutronic 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:57.180 energy being even more friendlier on a regulatory 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:03.200 for a regulatory environment in the future than 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:10.619 even a neutron. This is kind of like a big what 00:22:10.619 --> 00:22:12.720 -if question with a lot of variables, but I'd 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:16.539 love to know what you think about it. A lot of 00:22:16.539 --> 00:22:19.440 countries out there are going to look at how 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:23.859 the US is regulating fusion, and they're going 00:22:23.859 --> 00:22:27.319 to probably come up with their own laws and ways 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:31.759 to do it. What would be a good way? There are 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:34.279 bodies created by ITER, and there's the Fusion 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:36.680 Energy Association, and there are smart people 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:39.180 working on this. So this is not anything that's 00:22:39.180 --> 00:22:41.900 on your plate or my plate. But just based on 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:45.000 your expertise, what is the best -case scenario? 00:22:47.900 --> 00:22:59.369 International fusion. On the fission side, the 00:22:59.369 --> 00:23:04.390 regulatory bodies do meet. And they have had 00:23:04.390 --> 00:23:07.230 a lot of words, I would say, about how they were 00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:13.049 going to use one country's regulations in another 00:23:13.049 --> 00:23:17.349 country's. But that's never, as far as I know, 00:23:17.890 --> 00:23:22.710 actually come to fruition. People have sort of 00:23:22.710 --> 00:23:26.480 said the US is the gold standard. I think that's 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:32.039 probably US saying that. Probably. I have a bio 00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:37.579 -cell admit. Actually, I don't think it's going 00:23:37.579 --> 00:23:41.140 to be such a high bar at all. I think if you 00:23:41.140 --> 00:23:45.579 look at things that are already exported products 00:23:45.579 --> 00:23:49.400 that are technology that produce some kind of 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:55.079 radiation that are used in other countries. and 00:23:55.079 --> 00:24:00.700 are shielded. I think you could probably find 00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:04.660 some examples there that already are in place. 00:24:09.700 --> 00:24:17.559 I'm really optimistic that the regulatory piece 00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:23.819 is going to be a small part of the fusion development. 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.380 it's going to be the engineering piece is the 00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:32.819 challenge. So. Right. Yeah. I just I think about 00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:37.900 that. I just think about like the neutrons or 00:24:37.900 --> 00:24:41.619 if Tritium were to be used in kind of global 00:24:41.619 --> 00:24:44.460 expansion. So if we were going to build like 00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:47.819 10 generators that we want to put somewhere out 00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:51.309 there in the desert somewhere. that can power 00:24:51.309 --> 00:24:54.849 a railway or something like that, we wouldn't 00:24:54.849 --> 00:24:57.630 want it to have tritium in it that's up and running, 00:24:58.609 --> 00:25:00.970 or like a lithium -breeding wall that breeds 00:25:00.970 --> 00:25:03.390 more and more tritium in the system, because 00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:05.650 now you've actually put something weaponizable, 00:25:05.750 --> 00:25:10.660 even though it's fusion. So I think that... I 00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:13.059 think that there needs to be that distinction 00:25:13.059 --> 00:25:16.519 made in the regulatory system at some point in 00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:19.460 the future. I hope people are kind of paying 00:25:19.460 --> 00:25:23.039 attention to that. Yes, I think that's a really 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:28.339 good point. Tritium is a something that's highly 00:25:28.339 --> 00:25:31.900 controlled by governments because of its use 00:25:31.900 --> 00:25:36.039 in the weapons programs. But it also though Tritium 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:39.160 exists in like commercial nuclear fission power 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:43.339 as part of something they have to deal with. 00:25:44.380 --> 00:25:46.660 And if you don't, tritium is very, very difficult 00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:55.099 to contain because it's such a small atom, right? 00:25:55.400 --> 00:26:00.720 So what you end up with is there are places where 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:05.000 tritium has gotten into the ground. And although 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.500 it has a relatively shorter half life. It's still 00:26:09.500 --> 00:26:11.819 something you don't want, of course, in your 00:26:11.819 --> 00:26:16.859 water. And so there are plants in the US that 00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:19.920 have been shut down because of their concerns 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:25.019 about tritium. And so not having to deal with 00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:28.660 large quantities of tritium is certainly a huge 00:26:28.660 --> 00:26:31.900 advantage. It's also not only from a regulatory 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:34.599 standpoint, but from a technical standpoint of 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.660 having to have all the controls in place engineered 00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:41.579 and the cost of all of that as well and complications. 00:26:42.339 --> 00:26:50.539 Yep, exactly. The ancillary systems that you 00:26:50.539 --> 00:26:54.000 need to build just because you're using tritium 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:59.680 is almost, is good motivation to do the extra 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:04.399 engineering and go the a -neutronic route. Because 00:27:04.399 --> 00:27:07.880 even with the fusion, it's not just your generator. 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:14.539 If you're using tritium, you need to have some 00:27:14.539 --> 00:27:18.240 sort of a tritium processing unit attached to 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.160 your fusion energy generator. And that's like 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.720 ancillary systems are necessary for both fusion 00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:27.559 and fission. It's just that I think there are 00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.319 a few of the fusion ones are almost easier to 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:36.980 build than the... Yeah, anyway. Mm -hmm. It's 00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:39.660 always good to keep it simple, right? The KISS 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:45.220 principle. And so if we can minimize that, and 00:27:45.220 --> 00:27:47.700 I understand like an eater, if you look at that, 00:27:48.460 --> 00:27:53.440 their plant has an enormous amount of it devoted 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:58.240 to having to handle in tritium, you know? It's 00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:02.259 not just a Tiny little sidebar, right? It's something 00:28:02.259 --> 00:28:06.680 that they have got a lot of investment in and 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:09.099 of course a new tronic reducing the number of 00:28:09.099 --> 00:28:14.619 neutrons is is huge right because Neutrons can 00:28:14.619 --> 00:28:17.779 go a long ways unless you have a lot of shielding, 00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:23.460 but it's also very It's it's it's also bombarding 00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:27.000 your materials that you have and so you have 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:29.920 to engineer those materials that much more and 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:32.119 you're going to have to think about the life 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:36.519 span of those things. Same thing in, you know, 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.480 you have to develop those materials for longevity. 00:28:40.099 --> 00:28:44.640 So not having as many neutrons to deal with is 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.680 going to make that a little bit simpler task 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.619 and make us make something more robust that can 00:28:51.619 --> 00:28:55.380 last longer without having to have Lots of frequent 00:28:55.380 --> 00:28:59.319 maintenance. Right, it brings the cost of it 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:05.720 down overall. And just for the record, I've always 00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:10.799 been pro -nuclear energy. Since I was a child, 00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:14.019 I've been told good things. And I worked at Edison 00:29:14.019 --> 00:29:16.920 International, and they owned the San Onofre 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.420 nuclear power plant where I live in Southern 00:29:19.420 --> 00:29:23.440 California and I think it got shut down a few 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.960 years ago after after Fukushima and there you 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:29.619 know there was some political blowback or something 00:29:29.619 --> 00:29:32.940 and they all got shut down but I think we had 00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:36.140 a few others I think there was like El Diablo 00:29:36.140 --> 00:29:39.039 or something nuclear power plant that got shut 00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:43.230 down too but So I've always been pro -nuclear 00:29:43.230 --> 00:29:45.869 because in the larger scheme of things it's been 00:29:45.869 --> 00:29:51.089 a safe way to generate enormous amounts of energy. 00:29:53.410 --> 00:29:56.170 And I have friends who have founded companies 00:29:56.170 --> 00:30:02.750 in California where they use fusion processes 00:30:02.750 --> 00:30:05.910 to create neutrons because neutrons have their 00:30:05.910 --> 00:30:09.220 own place in society. and they do different things. 00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:12.640 You know this. You're in Los Alamos. Yeah, especially 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:17.140 with the applications. But it doesn't have a 00:30:17.140 --> 00:30:20.420 great place when it comes to large scale fusion 00:30:20.420 --> 00:30:23.000 energy commercialization. You don't want to have 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:27.559 it. That's kind of just for the record. Right. 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:32.380 Yeah. Well, either one. Yeah, and I'm obviously 00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:35.960 my my career was spent largely in vision and 00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:38.960 so I'm a fan of nuclear power it's not just because 00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:41.259 I was in it but probably because I was so close 00:30:41.259 --> 00:30:47.480 to what I realized the the advantages and That 00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:51.019 you have basically power density Alright, so 00:30:51.019 --> 00:30:53.880 you you if you look at the amount of uranium 00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:58.859 that you need compared to say like coal to produce 00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:00.859 that amount of energy, you'll be looking at, 00:31:00.859 --> 00:31:03.240 you know, tons of rail cars, right? Compared 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:07.119 to, of coal, compared to a tiny little vial of 00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:10.599 uranium. So you have this incredible power density. 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:15.400 So you minimize so many things because of that, 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:20.099 including waste. And, you know, you've probably 00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:23.980 seen the press about all the coal ash that has 00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:27.380 leaked into rivers and destroyed all kinds of 00:31:27.380 --> 00:31:32.140 ecosystems. And so they have incredible large 00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:34.720 volumes of that. So if you look at nuclear power, 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:39.180 it's just so much more compact. And same thing 00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:42.500 with fusion. We're talking about amazing amounts 00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:45.880 of energy just in a small area. We're not talking 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:49.420 about taking up millions, thousands of acres 00:31:49.420 --> 00:31:53.549 of land for things like solar panels. so forth 00:31:53.549 --> 00:31:58.210 so that's the that's the real advantage one of 00:31:58.210 --> 00:32:05.970 them anyway yeah um we were talking about um 00:32:05.970 --> 00:32:08.950 recently i think with carl we were talking about 00:32:08.950 --> 00:32:14.490 um q factor and how q factor is calculated and 00:32:14.490 --> 00:32:17.509 uh like the bare bones way of looking at it is 00:32:17.509 --> 00:32:21.430 input versus output but You could just look at 00:32:21.430 --> 00:32:25.009 the plasma Q factor or your fusion energy Q factor 00:32:25.009 --> 00:32:30.349 for your entire system. So it depends on the 00:32:30.349 --> 00:32:32.809 variables you use in that equation. You can calculate 00:32:32.809 --> 00:32:35.750 it many different ways. But the honest way to 00:32:35.750 --> 00:32:40.509 do it would be to do the entire system, so to 00:32:40.509 --> 00:32:44.859 speak, to look at. what goes into powering every 00:32:44.859 --> 00:32:47.599 single bit of the system and the output that 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.119 comes out of it. And based on even the most honest 00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:56.019 of calculations for Q factor, pound for pound, 00:32:56.259 --> 00:33:00.160 fusion gives you almost 4x the amount of power 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.599 that fission would give, just based on the amount 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:06.779 of deuterium and tritium you would use or something. 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.700 We need amazing engineers, Martin. That's what 00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:17.680 we need. We need engineers. Everything that I 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.019 just said can only be solved by engineering. 00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:25.740 And as I said earlier, we have the advantage 00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:30.180 today of not just mechanical engineers, but we're 00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:33.539 talking about computer scientists too, who can 00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:40.140 really leverage things like AI and move us even 00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:43.440 more forward. I've always been amazed at when 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.140 I worked in the neighbor actor program and how 00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:49.339 well they were able to design way back in the 00:33:49.339 --> 00:33:53.819 60s with what the tools that they had back then 00:33:53.819 --> 00:33:56.740 actually they put, but the thing was they could 00:33:56.740 --> 00:33:59.680 only do so many iterations as they optimize the 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:02.539 design because those calculations would take 00:34:02.539 --> 00:34:05.599 a long time. So they couldn't just say, you know, 00:34:05.700 --> 00:34:08.840 well, we'll just keep iterating until we reach 00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:12.079 a. an even better situation. They could maybe 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:15.719 only run the reactor to end, you know, three, 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:17.760 four times or something like this way back in 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.559 the day. But today, you know, with the computer 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:23.400 models that you have, you don't have to spend 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.519 so much time doing actual, you know, physical 00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:30.099 testing, but also you can run, you know, you 00:34:30.099 --> 00:34:34.199 can run scenario after scenario and you can optimize 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:40.570 things to where You know, if you look at where 00:34:40.570 --> 00:34:43.070 nuclear powers come in the Navy, you know, years 00:34:43.070 --> 00:34:45.909 ago used to be, you know, a reactor, I don't 00:34:45.909 --> 00:34:48.570 know, might have a year or two, three kind of 00:34:48.570 --> 00:34:50.690 life and you have to go replace it. You know, 00:34:50.730 --> 00:34:52.489 and today in the nuclear Navy, you talk about 00:34:52.489 --> 00:34:56.230 life of the ship reactors so that they just, 00:34:56.849 --> 00:35:03.489 you weld them shut for 30 plus years and you're 00:35:03.489 --> 00:35:05.730 looking at, you know, that kind of an advancement, 00:35:05.909 --> 00:35:13.480 right? That's come a long ways. Usually, we have 00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.500 a huge head start because of where all the tools 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:18.880 and technology that we have at our disposal. 00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:25.579 Yeah. So the time scales overall would be faster. 00:35:25.860 --> 00:35:29.699 The development, the lab to commercial time scales, 00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:33.719 all of that. A lot of computing can be thrown 00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:38.760 at it. Yeah, I was even I was talking to somebody 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.440 about prototyping recently and we talked about 00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:44.599 using computing for prototyping and and Just 00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:48.699 how much more can be accomplished now? It's really 00:35:48.699 --> 00:35:52.960 it's remarkable really and with and and I think 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:56.260 everything that we see now Remarkable as it may 00:35:56.260 --> 00:36:00.000 be with the advent of AI and the development 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:06.099 of like self modeling and all of that We are 00:36:06.349 --> 00:36:10.949 We're almost at a place where I dream of putting 00:36:10.949 --> 00:36:14.849 in a use case scenario into our simulation and 00:36:14.849 --> 00:36:18.309 have the AI use everything we've built to give 00:36:18.309 --> 00:36:22.590 us a perfect design for whatever use case scenario 00:36:22.590 --> 00:36:26.170 we've asked it to do. And we feel like if we 00:36:26.170 --> 00:36:29.469 can really build the AI and the machine learning 00:36:29.469 --> 00:36:32.989 in the best ways, we can have a perfect buildable 00:36:32.989 --> 00:36:37.699 design within a week or two. of engaging with 00:36:37.699 --> 00:36:42.260 a company. So I'm kind of excited about that 00:36:42.260 --> 00:36:45.420 because I feel like that gives us so much of 00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:47.760 a head start. And I'm excited to see what we 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:50.820 can do in the next two years and what other companies 00:36:50.820 --> 00:36:55.159 are going to do with AI and Fusion Energy. It's 00:36:55.159 --> 00:37:02.860 a great time to be in AI or Fusion. Yeah, I agree. 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.440 When you look at what are the most valuable things 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.679 that companies have these days, like as far as 00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.139 the technology of anything that you're developing, 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:18.179 it really comes back to what they have, the simulations 00:37:18.179 --> 00:37:19.940 that they have and the models that they've built. 00:37:20.860 --> 00:37:23.760 They hold that pretty close to their vest as 00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:28.659 far as being intellectual property, because they 00:37:28.659 --> 00:37:35.110 can use those now to design the next thing and 00:37:35.110 --> 00:37:37.409 it's not so much you know in old days you had 00:37:37.409 --> 00:37:40.929 to sort of build parts and pieces go test them 00:37:40.929 --> 00:37:44.590 in the lab and then um and then iterate from 00:37:44.590 --> 00:37:47.550 there now the probably the most important thing 00:37:47.550 --> 00:37:49.630 is understanding that data is that you can put 00:37:49.630 --> 00:37:53.670 into these models right so um you still have 00:37:53.670 --> 00:37:57.710 to have some data to put in the models and uh 00:37:57.710 --> 00:38:00.829 that but once you have that now you're you're 00:38:00.829 --> 00:38:03.929 able to have all kinds of different permutations 00:38:03.929 --> 00:38:09.590 and get to a better starting place before you 00:38:09.590 --> 00:38:13.730 actually start building a product. And that's 00:38:13.730 --> 00:38:17.190 where things start to get expensive when you're 00:38:17.190 --> 00:38:19.070 actually building things. You don't want to build 00:38:19.070 --> 00:38:21.429 something and then find out it doesn't work and 00:38:21.429 --> 00:38:25.949 then have to go back, redesign it, and so forth. 00:38:30.940 --> 00:38:36.539 You and I have talked a lot about how we also 00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:43.480 understand liquid fuel production and all of 00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.960 that, and how everything that we see around us 00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:51.659 is made out of some kind of petroleum. So I'm 00:38:51.659 --> 00:38:56.599 kind of excited for... For working with that 00:38:56.599 --> 00:38:59.500 industry because it's it's not going anywhere 00:38:59.500 --> 00:39:05.739 and it doesn't And all we can do is like make 00:39:05.739 --> 00:39:10.619 it a little bit cleaner and and maybe Remove 00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:14.760 50 % off what people feel is problematic about 00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:18.219 that industry What do you what do you what do 00:39:18.219 --> 00:39:20.300 you think about that? Is that something you want 00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:26.250 to talk about? Sure, you know You know, I used 00:39:26.250 --> 00:39:29.590 to work on advanced reactors, fitting reactors, 00:39:30.530 --> 00:39:35.329 specifically gas -cooled reactors, and with triso 00:39:35.329 --> 00:39:39.769 fuel. And I started in that industry back in 00:39:39.769 --> 00:39:45.230 the 90s, developing triso fuel. And the goal 00:39:45.230 --> 00:39:49.559 there is to be able to... when it's much more 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.460 intrinsically safer because you have this fuel, 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:56.639 which is actually the containment and for fission 00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:59.940 gases, but it's a ceramic type fuel. So you can 00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:03.219 run it at much, much higher temperatures. And 00:40:03.219 --> 00:40:06.719 so you're not looking at melting, you know, metals 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:12.739 and so forth, you know, like a situation with 00:40:12.739 --> 00:40:17.840 water cool reactors. And so The output of that 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.880 is, though, is that you can reach very high temperatures, 00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:26.159 you know, way over 800 C, and you go up to 1100 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:29.019 or 1200 C, even hotter, and then you start to 00:40:29.019 --> 00:40:32.719 run into some material issues. But the positive 00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:36.179 there, which is very similar to what we're talking 00:40:36.179 --> 00:40:38.739 about in fusion, is that when you start being 00:40:38.739 --> 00:40:43.099 able to have that kind of heat, that usable heat, 00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:49.280 industries all over the map need that kind of 00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:51.139 level of heat. And what they're getting it from 00:40:51.139 --> 00:40:54.519 mostly today is through like natural gas, okay, 00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:57.500 and burning those kinds of fuels in order to 00:40:57.500 --> 00:41:00.559 be able to process these things. But the petroleum 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.119 industry itself, in order to refine the products 00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:07.639 that they, you know, the crude oil that they 00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:12.920 are drilling, they have to use about around a 00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:17.039 third of that that fuel in order to process their 00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:21.500 fuel. And so all the products that we have around 00:41:21.500 --> 00:41:25.599 us, really the average person, I don't understand 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:29.000 that their entire world around them is built 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:33.119 from petroleum products. All the plastics and, 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:37.039 you know, the cars, your lipstick, your computer 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:41.559 screens and keyboards, all these things are petroleum 00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:45.480 products is your carpet. everything. You know, 00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:48.719 you could look around your apartment, your house, 00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:51.780 your room, your car, wherever you are, and you'll 00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:55.800 be hard pressed to not have something within 00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:58.880 arm's reach that isn't based on petroleum products. 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:06.820 So if we can harness the energy from fusion, 00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:12.239 just the usable heat without even thinking about 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:17.159 electricity, We can make all of those products 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:22.400 much more efficiently, but also, you're not throwing 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:24.980 away one third of the fuel that the feedstock. 00:42:26.659 --> 00:42:30.940 So, you know, it's very attractive. No, that 00:42:30.940 --> 00:42:33.900 specific one was a big selling point. I spoke 00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:38.500 about this at COP 28, and I know you gave me 00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:41.460 some talking points, and we discussed this before 00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:45.519 I went out there. But when I told people about 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:48.940 that specific thing, that was a big intrigue. 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:51.400 Not only would it be cleaner, but there would 00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:59.599 be a big savings. a huge driver for that um, 00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:02.139 you know one day I believe that petroleum will 00:43:02.139 --> 00:43:06.639 be actually Be more valuable for the product 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.199 side of it the petrochemical, you know side of 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:13.500 it versus the just the fuel side of it um, you 00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:17.860 know, is it as As uh, you know, we all it's all 00:43:17.860 --> 00:43:20.820 conjecture of how much how much petroleum is 00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:24.199 available for the future. We all know it's more 00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:29.039 difficult to harvest than in the past because 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.800 we've fused up the, you know, of course we've 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:34.059 gone to the easiest sources first and now we 00:43:34.059 --> 00:43:37.539 have to go to other places more remote to try 00:43:37.539 --> 00:43:40.539 and get that. So it just makes sense to try and 00:43:40.539 --> 00:43:45.460 preserve that product as well as all the other 00:43:45.460 --> 00:43:49.030 industries that need usable heat. you know, the 00:43:49.030 --> 00:43:52.409 concrete industry, the cement industry uses a 00:43:52.409 --> 00:43:57.150 lot of heat. There's a number of different industries 00:43:57.150 --> 00:44:01.610 that are buying right now natural gas in order 00:44:01.610 --> 00:44:07.050 to power those kinds of things. So it's a very 00:44:07.050 --> 00:44:10.389 exciting, the applications are just abound if 00:44:10.389 --> 00:44:13.489 you can reach those kinds of high heat, which 00:44:13.489 --> 00:44:17.659 not everybody can and actually, Fusion energy 00:44:17.659 --> 00:44:20.099 is going to surpass almost anything right because 00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:24.280 you're talking about plasma, right? Incredible 00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:29.980 temperatures, so I think it's gonna be the first 00:44:29.980 --> 00:44:34.719 Most usable application of fusion power and then 00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:38.179 before we even start to think about electricity 00:44:38.179 --> 00:44:42.780 Yeah, I was reading an article in the Washington 00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:49.489 General Washington Washington Journal this morning 00:44:49.489 --> 00:44:54.170 and it said that we would need about 20 to 25 00:44:54.170 --> 00:44:59.929 percent increase in energy to just power AI over 00:44:59.929 --> 00:45:05.550 the next decade, like a significant uptick, like 00:45:05.550 --> 00:45:14.840 a significant input into the grid. Google has 00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:18.039 or building a number of these data centers around 00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:23.619 the country. And there's a number of them around 00:45:23.619 --> 00:45:26.320 Washington DC area because of all the data there 00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:33.699 and so forth. When I was at GE, I was... involved 00:45:33.699 --> 00:45:36.519 in the small modular reactor program and those 00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:40.280 reactors developed about 300 megawatts of electricity. 00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:43.639 What is really interesting to me was learning 00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:47.119 that some of these data centers need 100 megawatts. 00:45:47.219 --> 00:45:50.920 So it's almost like, you know, they need one 00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:53.940 third of a small modular reactor to power them. 00:45:54.960 --> 00:46:01.440 So they're incredibly hungry for power. And as 00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:05.179 we know, data is just expanding even more, right? 00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:12.320 It's going to be intense. So the need for efficient 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:17.840 ways to produce and to provide that power is 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:22.800 no end in sight. Yeah. Modular generators are 00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:26.519 making, it's like a big... buzzword in the in 00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:29.440 the in the fission industry now it seems like 00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:34.079 so I know that fission has also like vastly improved 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.699 and there's a big there are lots of investments 00:46:36.699 --> 00:46:42.679 going into fission and and so there are plans 00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:46.440 to build all these new types of fission reactors 00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:52.400 how does does fusion still confusion still compete 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:56.710 with those up upgraded fission reactors. How 00:46:56.710 --> 00:47:03.489 do you feel about that? You know, I worked on 00:47:03.489 --> 00:47:07.650 neighbor reactors for about just over 20 years 00:47:07.650 --> 00:47:11.570 and I really was not in tune with the commercial 00:47:11.570 --> 00:47:13.730 world when I was doing that because that was 00:47:13.730 --> 00:47:16.730 all classified. We were behind razor wire. I 00:47:16.730 --> 00:47:19.369 was focused on that. I went through three generations 00:47:19.369 --> 00:47:22.940 of reactors while I was there, I was really fortunate 00:47:22.940 --> 00:47:25.519 that when I first started there, what really 00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:28.980 got me hooked was we were working on the Seawolf 00:47:28.980 --> 00:47:32.320 prototype, which in my estimation today is like 00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:36.920 the, it's the baddest ass, small mod reactor 00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:42.340 on the plant. And then I went on to work on the 00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:45.260 Virginia class, first Virginia class, and then 00:47:45.260 --> 00:47:49.550 what's now the Gerald Ford. carrier, which is 00:47:49.550 --> 00:47:54.230 the new carrier. And so after all that, I sort 00:47:54.230 --> 00:47:57.150 of popped out and said, I'm going to try commercial. 00:47:57.570 --> 00:48:01.750 It's got to be a lot easier. Right. And I go 00:48:01.750 --> 00:48:04.150 into the commercial world and I find out they 00:48:04.150 --> 00:48:08.789 haven't built a new vision reactor in the U .S. 00:48:08.829 --> 00:48:14.429 and since around 1980. Okay. And so the whole 00:48:14.429 --> 00:48:18.860 industry has just been absolutely stagnant. And 00:48:18.860 --> 00:48:22.340 so as I got into that, I mean, I worked on getting 00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:27.980 a large reactor licensed here in the US and to 00:48:27.980 --> 00:48:30.420 be built like three or four different locations 00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:33.000 in the US. First one was me at Calvert Cliffs, 00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:37.139 Maryland. And we worked on that for six years 00:48:37.139 --> 00:48:39.019 just to try and get the licensing, right? We 00:48:39.019 --> 00:48:41.440 spent almost a half a billion dollars just on 00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:45.260 that. And it was nothing really totally new. 00:48:45.449 --> 00:48:48.670 had four different safety trainings and so forth. 00:48:49.130 --> 00:48:54.150 So what has happened is we've put even more money 00:48:54.150 --> 00:48:56.570 into all of these different systems. And so these 00:48:56.570 --> 00:49:00.190 things start to become even more expensive. And 00:49:00.190 --> 00:49:04.230 what you find is many of the utilities are not 00:49:04.230 --> 00:49:07.630 large enough to even afford one of these reactors. 00:49:09.150 --> 00:49:12.920 It meets their, it's beyond their capex. And 00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:15.760 so if you look at Vogel, they spent $30 billion, 00:49:16.699 --> 00:49:20.820 I believe anyway, on those, on two 1100 megawatt 00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:26.539 reactors. So you have utilities that are very, 00:49:27.940 --> 00:49:31.019 they're not, their appetite to spend lots of 00:49:31.019 --> 00:49:35.969 capital money is not very high. many of them 00:49:35.969 --> 00:49:38.690 are traded on the stock market, and so they're 00:49:38.690 --> 00:49:41.230 concerned about if they decide they're gonna 00:49:41.230 --> 00:49:44.889 invest in something like this, their stock price 00:49:44.889 --> 00:49:49.250 may go down because the track record has not 00:49:49.250 --> 00:49:52.949 been very good, right? It's like, it takes many, 00:49:53.250 --> 00:49:59.250 many years over budget. And so the appetite there 00:49:59.250 --> 00:50:01.730 is, so that's where a really small -modge reactor 00:50:01.730 --> 00:50:05.760 started. Becoming the buzzword as you said because 00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:09.179 well instead of maybe 10 12 15 billion dollars, 00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:12.119 maybe it's one or two billion dollars And maybe 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:16.639 we could afford that So really the drive on small 00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:20.739 modular was more of a commercial affordability 00:50:20.739 --> 00:50:25.980 Than anything else there's been a lot of talk 00:50:25.980 --> 00:50:29.619 about Well, we'll drive the cost down because 00:50:29.619 --> 00:50:32.780 we'll be able to build these in factories and 00:50:32.780 --> 00:50:37.579 we'll be able to sort of replicate these and 00:50:37.579 --> 00:50:44.039 so forth. However, nobody today has cracked that 00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:47.199 nut. There's been a lot of talk about it, but 00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:53.519 you have to have a sizable number of orders to 00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:56.340 get off the ground to do that and build your 00:50:56.340 --> 00:51:00.619 supply chain. The Navy has done that. But if 00:51:00.619 --> 00:51:03.840 you look at the commercial world, there's a lot 00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:06.300 of talk about it. But unfortunately, I don't 00:51:06.300 --> 00:51:11.199 see, even when I was at GE, we had, GE's had 00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:13.940 the wherewithal as far as the fuel manufacturing, 00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:18.320 which is huge. And so they have a real chance 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:20.719 at it, I would say. They still need a lot of 00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:26.400 orders in order to make that a reality. And each 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:30.000 of those would still run into the same regulatory 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:35.179 stuff or somehow do any of these make it easier 00:51:35.179 --> 00:51:37.880 to meet those regulatory standards we spoke about 00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:40.860 before? Well, every site is going to have to 00:51:40.860 --> 00:51:46.099 be licensed. So you have your site licensing 00:51:46.099 --> 00:51:49.099 and then you have the reactor itself that's licensed, 00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:52.780 the technology. Hopefully, you only have to get 00:51:52.780 --> 00:51:55.119 the technology license once. But if you go into 00:51:55.119 --> 00:52:00.699 another country like UK or, you know, you name 00:52:00.699 --> 00:52:03.280 it, right, you're going to have to go through 00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:06.659 their regulatory body and get their their license, 00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:10.920 which is expensive. One thing people don't realize 00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:13.179 and I didn't realize until I got into it was 00:52:13.179 --> 00:52:19.739 that the companies themselves have to pay for 00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:23.880 the review. So when you submit a review to the 00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:27.500 NRC, at the time, this is a little while back, 00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:31.760 but I believe it was around $275 an hour, you 00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:37.519 paid for a reviewer that largely were subcontractors. 00:52:37.820 --> 00:52:41.440 And so they would, there's really no incentive 00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:47.980 for them to stop asking questions. They can dream 00:52:47.980 --> 00:52:51.940 up more questions. And so, it went on and on 00:52:51.940 --> 00:52:59.199 and on and you're paying for it. So you can imagine 00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:05.139 how frustrating that is to companies that they 00:53:05.139 --> 00:53:09.039 don't have endless money and they're trying to 00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:12.699 get something licensed that as the time is going 00:53:12.699 --> 00:53:17.400 on, they're not making things and they're not 00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:22.599 getting any bills paid. So it's this huge outlay. 00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:25.119 And that's why you saw a number of companies 00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:29.380 going bankrupt, a number of companies like Westinghouse. 00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:36.000 So I think if you look at that sort of ecosystem, 00:53:37.900 --> 00:53:44.500 you can see how fusion has a much more attractive 00:53:44.500 --> 00:53:48.559 opportunity because you're not You're not going 00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:51.500 to be going through that kind of regulatory process 00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:56.239 And you can get to market much sooner it's more 00:53:56.239 --> 00:53:59.340 predictable Engineering is more predictable than 00:53:59.340 --> 00:54:07.219 than than the regulatory environment And you 00:54:07.219 --> 00:54:09.199 always have to worry that they're not worried 00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:11.139 but the concern is right somebody's got to buy 00:54:11.139 --> 00:54:17.829 this product somebody has to have the money and 00:54:17.829 --> 00:54:24.030 is willing to invest in this. And the utilities, 00:54:24.050 --> 00:54:29.010 as I described, are very reluctant to outlay 00:54:29.010 --> 00:54:34.150 that kind of money. Right. I find myself thinking 00:54:34.150 --> 00:54:39.630 in terms of, if I were to build a hundred generators, 00:54:40.150 --> 00:54:46.559 what are the, you know, What are the things that 00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:48.619 I'm going to need to contend with if I was going 00:54:48.619 --> 00:54:51.039 to build a thousand generators? Is that scalable? 00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:53.059 And what are the things I would need to contend 00:54:53.059 --> 00:54:55.199 with? And this is over the course of the next 00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:57.179 two decades or three decades, of course. But 00:54:57.179 --> 00:55:00.599 like if I were to build something at that scale, 00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:07.300 I would not want it to have anything in it that 00:55:07.300 --> 00:55:11.019 is highly weaponizable or I wouldn't want it 00:55:11.019 --> 00:55:15.500 to have anything that has, you know, something 00:55:15.500 --> 00:55:18.159 that has a half life of a thousand years or 10 00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:22.500 ,000 years. Is that still the case with the modular 00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:26.480 reactor? Then I take those two things would still. 00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:29.619 Yeah, you know, as you go through those regulatory 00:55:29.619 --> 00:55:32.559 meetings and so forth, you're always going to 00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:34.280 get that question. What are you going to do with 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:38.940 the waste? You know, the waste is really not 00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:44.909 as a it can be blown up. I shouldn't say that. 00:55:46.570 --> 00:55:52.230 I didn't mean it that way. But it can be characterized 00:55:52.230 --> 00:55:59.130 as a huge problem. All of the used fuel, the 00:55:59.130 --> 00:56:02.510 spent fuel right now in the U .S. is being stored 00:56:02.510 --> 00:56:07.750 at the sites. So there is no geologic repository 00:56:07.750 --> 00:56:11.170 in place right now. Yucca Mountain was attempted 00:56:11.170 --> 00:56:15.929 and it probably will never. not come back. So 00:56:15.929 --> 00:56:19.510 what you what you have is these concrete casks 00:56:19.510 --> 00:56:23.309 on site that has the fuel stored in it. I believe 00:56:23.309 --> 00:56:26.170 it's very safe. Okay, that it's being stored 00:56:26.170 --> 00:56:29.570 there. But you always have to the legacy of what 00:56:29.570 --> 00:56:32.849 are you going to do with us now? The US invented 00:56:32.849 --> 00:56:35.789 all the technology to recycle that fuel by Jimmy 00:56:35.789 --> 00:56:38.849 Carter. put a moratorium on that, um, cause he 00:56:38.849 --> 00:56:41.510 was concerned about diversion of plutonium and 00:56:41.510 --> 00:56:44.309 other things for that. You, when you separate 00:56:44.309 --> 00:56:46.730 those few, those, those fuels in that process 00:56:46.730 --> 00:56:50.570 for recycling, which is really amazing. Cause 00:56:50.570 --> 00:56:53.909 you, you actually recover about 97 % of all that 00:56:53.909 --> 00:56:58.090 we use it. Um, but you could divert, you know, 00:56:58.150 --> 00:57:03.989 um, uh, some materials, uh, for, you know, uh, 00:57:04.030 --> 00:57:08.090 weapon. type applications. So that was the concern. 00:57:09.190 --> 00:57:12.849 But the infusion, we're not going to have those 00:57:12.849 --> 00:57:15.949 kinds of issues. We may have some materials that 00:57:15.949 --> 00:57:18.929 might have gotten irradiated, but they're not 00:57:18.929 --> 00:57:25.690 themselves producing these long -lived radionuclides 00:57:25.690 --> 00:57:28.110 with half -lives of thousands and thousands of 00:57:28.110 --> 00:57:30.409 years that you're going to have to deal with 00:57:30.409 --> 00:57:40.659 for eternity. And so And also the fuel itself 00:57:40.659 --> 00:57:44.659 is in a much different form in procuring it. 00:57:45.500 --> 00:57:49.679 So the level of effort to go into actually manufacture 00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:54.920 fission fuel, you've got to mine uranium, you 00:57:54.920 --> 00:58:00.099 have to go and refine that. Then you have to, 00:58:00.099 --> 00:58:02.559 there's lots of processing that's involved there. 00:58:03.789 --> 00:58:07.030 And then, you know, so incredible investment 00:58:07.030 --> 00:58:11.190 and controls just in producing the fuel and getting 00:58:11.190 --> 00:58:19.230 into a usable form. Yeah. I suppose that that's 00:58:19.230 --> 00:58:24.250 one challenge that we still share with the fission 00:58:24.250 --> 00:58:29.170 world is with fusion, the availability of helium 00:58:29.170 --> 00:58:34.630 -3. and the availability of tritium or deuterium. 00:58:36.530 --> 00:58:41.389 It all exists, but again, we need the, I think 00:58:41.389 --> 00:58:44.550 even that, we've obviously talked about, we know 00:58:44.550 --> 00:58:47.429 of companies working on getting the helium, but 00:58:47.429 --> 00:58:50.789 again, huge engineering problem. So since it 00:58:50.789 --> 00:58:56.429 all kind of comes down to engineering, we need 00:58:56.429 --> 00:58:59.610 engineers. We need engineers, Martin, not just 00:58:59.610 --> 00:59:02.869 for us, but for all of the other things that 00:59:02.869 --> 00:59:08.250 connect to all of this. So how do we get more 00:59:08.250 --> 00:59:12.469 people to be engineers? What is the advice for 00:59:12.469 --> 00:59:16.610 the younger generation here that are choosing 00:59:16.610 --> 00:59:22.230 what they would do? Yeah, I think there is a... 00:59:23.300 --> 00:59:27.320 I think there will always be people who are curious 00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:31.340 and want to understand our universe, want to 00:59:31.340 --> 00:59:35.159 understand how things work. And that's sort of 00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:37.960 the basis of engineering, right? It's kind of 00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:44.320 that curiosity. And once you have that, you'd 00:59:44.320 --> 00:59:47.780 like to go into a field, I think that... is kind 00:59:47.780 --> 00:59:50.179 of going to break through into things. One thing 00:59:50.179 --> 00:59:53.139 I learned kind of early on though is there's 00:59:53.139 --> 00:59:59.159 some people who like to know what they're going 00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:03.179 to do every day and it's been worked out and 01:00:03.179 --> 01:00:05.920 they just sort of have to follow a process. And 01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:08.320 that's perfectly fine. I mean, what I've learned 01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:10.539 was I'm glad there are people like that because 01:00:10.539 --> 01:00:14.599 I'm not like that. But we need people like that. 01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:16.719 But there are other engineers and other curious 01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:20.340 people that want to discover things and are willing 01:00:20.340 --> 01:00:22.800 to sort of step out where everything isn't figured 01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:25.679 out yet. You know, you mentioned helium three. 01:00:25.940 --> 01:00:27.639 How are we going to get helium three? We could 01:00:27.639 --> 01:00:30.500 maybe harvest it from the moon. Well, that sounds 01:00:30.500 --> 01:00:36.780 pretty exciting, right? So it's not not easy, 01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:39.559 but you know what I've learned is anything that's 01:00:39.559 --> 01:00:41.880 been satisfying in my life hasn't been easy. 01:00:42.190 --> 01:00:45.429 It's taken a lot of work and it's taken a lot 01:00:45.429 --> 01:00:48.449 of collaboration and a lot of fun working with 01:00:48.449 --> 01:00:55.309 people and discovering things. So infusion, we 01:00:55.309 --> 01:00:58.969 know it works. We absolutely know it works. It's 01:00:58.969 --> 01:01:01.530 been done in laboratories. You can look at the 01:01:01.530 --> 01:01:04.710 sun, okay? We're getting energy from every day, 01:01:04.710 --> 01:01:09.789 okay? So it works. It's just, how do we now engineer 01:01:09.789 --> 01:01:15.630 this? to harness it. And so you can almost be 01:01:15.630 --> 01:01:19.750 in almost any field and be involved in this. 01:01:20.769 --> 01:01:24.170 From material science, which I think is fantastic, 01:01:24.210 --> 01:01:26.570 because materials are always going to be the 01:01:26.570 --> 01:01:32.210 key, to computer science, to mechanical, to plasma 01:01:32.210 --> 01:01:38.210 physics, to instrumentation, to civil engineering, 01:01:38.869 --> 01:01:42.670 to space. mining all these things we're talking 01:01:42.670 --> 01:01:47.389 about are going to be needed to come together 01:01:47.389 --> 01:01:52.250 to make this a reality. Yeah, I'm excited about 01:01:52.250 --> 01:01:56.780 it. When I spoke with this company about going 01:01:56.780 --> 01:02:00.659 to the moon and getting helium -3, they told 01:02:00.659 --> 01:02:03.119 us about all of the other things that they would 01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:06.500 be getting from the moon. And one of those things 01:02:06.500 --> 01:02:09.860 was a super fertilizer, apparently. I don't know 01:02:09.860 --> 01:02:12.719 what this is. But it's a fertilizer.