WEBVTT 00:00:04.650 --> 00:00:06.969 What if the stories we love could change how 00:00:06.969 --> 00:00:09.910 we act on the climate? Today we're asking how 00:00:09.910 --> 00:00:12.130 environmental literature and climate fiction, 00:00:12.250 --> 00:00:15.910 or cli -fi, shape what we fear, what we hope, 00:00:16.030 --> 00:00:18.089 and what we can do to address the climate crisis 00:00:18.089 --> 00:00:21.420 and climate injustices. This is Climate to Action, 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:25.399 a CSUSM student podcast. We amplify voices, explore 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:28.120 solutions to the climate crisis, and confront 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:31.440 climate injustice for all living beings. We are 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:33.939 committed to discussions on climate justice and 00:00:33.939 --> 00:00:36.280 Indigenous knowledge to address the climate crisis 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:39.460 and to providing a call to action in every episode. 00:00:39.859 --> 00:00:42.039 First, we'd like to acknowledge that our recording 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:44.439 studio is on the traditional territory of the 00:00:44.439 --> 00:00:47.859 Wisenyo -Payukowichan people. CSUSM and its surrounding 00:00:47.859 --> 00:00:50.600 areas are still home to the six federally recognized 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:54.280 bands of the La Jolla, Paula, Pama, Pechanga, 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:57.460 Rincon, and Ceboba Luiseño Payacuicham people. 00:00:57.780 --> 00:01:01.000 This land is also a shared space among the Kupenyo, 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:04.439 Kumeyaay, and Ipai peoples. Today's episode focuses 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:07.870 on environmental literature and cli -fi. Our 00:01:07.870 --> 00:01:10.290 guest is Professor Dylan Winchock, who teaches 00:01:10.290 --> 00:01:12.629 environmental literature and thinks deeply about 00:01:12.629 --> 00:01:16.090 how stories shape climate action. Professor Winchock, 00:01:16.150 --> 00:01:19.030 welcome. Thanks for having me. Professor Winchock, 00:01:19.090 --> 00:01:21.430 could you introduce yourself, maybe talk a little 00:01:21.430 --> 00:01:24.890 bit about what you teach, research, and how you 00:01:24.890 --> 00:01:27.790 came to environmental literature? All right. 00:01:27.790 --> 00:01:31.489 Well, I'm a professor of literature at CSUSM. 00:01:31.510 --> 00:01:36.030 I've been here since about 2015. My research... 00:01:36.409 --> 00:01:38.629 tends to gear towards the politics of space, 00:01:38.730 --> 00:01:41.489 spatial theories, borders, borderlands, things 00:01:41.489 --> 00:01:46.549 like that. And I teach mostly 20th century and 00:01:46.549 --> 00:01:48.150 contemporary American literature and critical 00:01:48.150 --> 00:01:53.349 theory. Pretty much every semester of every year, 00:01:53.390 --> 00:01:56.530 I've also taught U .S. environmental lit. Part 00:01:56.530 --> 00:01:58.810 of what I like about environmental lit is that 00:01:58.810 --> 00:02:00.909 it kind of proves to be an aesthetic intersection 00:02:00.909 --> 00:02:03.549 between spatial theory, landscape and environment 00:02:03.549 --> 00:02:06.290 and all that. and practices of social justice. 00:02:06.890 --> 00:02:11.409 Okay. What do you include under environmental 00:02:11.409 --> 00:02:16.650 literature? Maybe novels, poetry, etc.? Yeah, 00:02:16.710 --> 00:02:19.050 environmental literature is a really broad genre 00:02:19.050 --> 00:02:22.409 of study. Nearly any text that sustains focus 00:02:22.409 --> 00:02:24.770 on the environment in any way, shape, or form 00:02:24.770 --> 00:02:29.800 can fit within this category. include texts that 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:31.680 meditate on the beauty of nature, but it could 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:33.520 also include texts that call people to action 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:37.240 against unjust environmental practices. It can 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:41.199 include any number of forms of writing, so creative 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:45.060 non -fiction to poetry, memoirs to drama, and 00:02:45.060 --> 00:02:49.840 film, visual arts, music. Because of this broad 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:52.750 definition, I think it's often overlooked. Instead 00:02:52.750 --> 00:02:54.650 of seeing environmental literature, people will 00:02:54.650 --> 00:02:57.169 say, okay, this particular novel is late 20th 00:02:57.169 --> 00:03:00.229 century, modern, realist novel, and it happens 00:03:00.229 --> 00:03:03.930 to discuss acid rain. But lately, I feel like 00:03:03.930 --> 00:03:05.909 people are more willing to accept that texts 00:03:05.909 --> 00:03:08.509 focusing on environmental issues are part of 00:03:08.509 --> 00:03:11.310 a long tradition that's itself worthy of serious 00:03:11.310 --> 00:03:17.590 study. News and social media often frame the 00:03:17.590 --> 00:03:21.159 climate via disasters. How does... literature 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:27.939 compared to this especially in the past uh novels 00:03:27.939 --> 00:03:30.740 that dealt with environmental issues film art 00:03:30.740 --> 00:03:34.939 uh often talked about it in very very alarming 00:03:34.939 --> 00:03:38.939 ways uh they often contained a sense of impending 00:03:38.939 --> 00:03:41.939 doom a feeling of helplessness and alongside 00:03:41.939 --> 00:03:44.099 this is this kind of longing for the natural 00:03:44.099 --> 00:03:46.500 world a kind of tragic love affair for the very 00:03:46.500 --> 00:03:50.740 thing that we're destroying but recently Recently, 00:03:50.819 --> 00:03:52.819 I think things have changed. There's increasingly 00:03:52.819 --> 00:03:55.419 a discussion about how to navigate a world damaged 00:03:55.419 --> 00:03:58.819 by our hands as though it might persist. Because 00:03:58.819 --> 00:04:00.960 whether it's doomed or not, we have to learn 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.400 to live as though there's hope. I want to move 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.379 on to Orcs and Crake. I read Orcs and Crake in 00:04:06.379 --> 00:04:08.520 Professor Winchock's critical thinking class, 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:10.800 which all literature and writing majors must 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.520 take. It's a crazy journey of a story that talks 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:18.319 about climate disaster, ethical dilemmas, playing 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:22.519 God, and... So, so much. But for listeners who 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:25.040 haven't read it, let's briefly summarize Oryx 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.540 and Crake. Professor, we can both talk about 00:04:28.540 --> 00:04:31.060 it, but I'd like you to take it away. All right. 00:04:31.100 --> 00:04:34.240 I'll try to summarize this very quickly. Oryx 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.040 and Crake, a novel by Margaret Atwood, published 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:39.459 in 2003. It's part of a trilogy. It's the first 00:04:39.459 --> 00:04:41.079 book of the trilogy, followed by Year of the 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:46.149 Flood and Mad Adam. And it's a near future dystopian 00:04:46.149 --> 00:04:48.750 novel, but also a post -apocalyptic novel, depending 00:04:48.750 --> 00:04:50.269 on what part of the novel you're looking at. 00:04:50.870 --> 00:04:53.750 And I feel like it's about the dangers of a kind 00:04:53.750 --> 00:04:56.889 of corporatocracy, unbridled capitalism and unethical 00:04:56.889 --> 00:05:00.540 forms of genetic engineering. It takes place 00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:03.279 in a world where mass extinctions and ecological 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:06.040 disaster are kind of everyday occurrences amidst 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:08.199 extreme and unpredictable weather conditions. 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:10.920 And it introduces a number of genetically modified 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:14.240 organisms, from pigs used to harvest human body 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:17.300 parts to coffee plants whose beans all ripen 00:05:17.300 --> 00:05:19.899 simultaneously. And all these things wreak havoc 00:05:19.899 --> 00:05:22.139 on both the natural landscape and the human market. 00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:26.649 Yeah, you mentioned the pigs used to... I think 00:05:26.649 --> 00:05:29.370 it was Harvest Human Organs, The Pigeons. That 00:05:29.370 --> 00:05:32.970 has stayed in my brain ever since I read it sophomore 00:05:32.970 --> 00:05:37.470 year. I'm a junior now. And I just think about 00:05:37.470 --> 00:05:41.350 it and think about like what Margaret Atwood 00:05:41.350 --> 00:05:45.970 was trying to like talk about in terms of like 00:05:45.970 --> 00:05:49.329 where our world is going. Because I felt like 00:05:49.329 --> 00:05:52.569 she was scared about where our world was going. 00:05:52.629 --> 00:05:54.629 Even back then, like that novel was written. 00:05:55.319 --> 00:06:00.480 like 20 something years ago. And I were still 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.560 terrified about where the world is going and 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:07.120 all like, like experimentation that like the 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:09.160 common person doesn't know about, but that we 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:11.100 can, that we hear about, like sometimes in the 00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:13.300 news, like, like crazy things happening or like, 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:15.160 oh, maybe that, but that was so long ago, or, 00:06:15.180 --> 00:06:18.439 but that only happened in like this small burst 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:21.100 of things. And yeah, that, that really made me, 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:25.509 yeah, think about the world. Yeah, I think in 00:06:25.509 --> 00:06:28.009 a lot of ways, the book is a cautionary tale 00:06:28.009 --> 00:06:30.529 about the Anthropocene, a kind of warning to 00:06:30.529 --> 00:06:32.889 us about what happens when the value of life, 00:06:32.990 --> 00:06:36.329 both human and non -human life, is superseded 00:06:36.329 --> 00:06:40.310 by monetary gain and corporate greed. The novel 00:06:40.310 --> 00:06:43.649 imagines human -engineered ecological disaster 00:06:43.649 --> 00:06:46.850 and possibly even an end to the human race. There's 00:06:46.850 --> 00:06:50.189 a couple elements that do feel pretty close to 00:06:50.189 --> 00:06:51.930 home today, like I was talking about. Things 00:06:51.930 --> 00:06:56.100 like... pandemics uh privatization inequality 00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:59.459 i especially want to talk about pandemics because 00:06:59.459 --> 00:07:07.060 that's because that's like how um i think i feel 00:07:07.060 --> 00:07:09.720 like that's how the novel is framed by that by 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:11.420 that pandemic like that's how the novel starts 00:07:11.420 --> 00:07:14.220 like it's the aftermath of that crazy pandemic 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:18.740 yeah i think i think in order to talk about the 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:22.540 pandemic aspect of this book. I think the first 00:07:22.540 --> 00:07:26.060 thing we need to think about is the kind of corporate 00:07:26.060 --> 00:07:28.839 control of government. And I think that leads 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:31.480 up to this, because this idea of corporate control 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:34.079 of government is, I think, especially important 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:37.959 given our current political climate. What we 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:40.600 see in it is this kind of increasingly blatant 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.040 segregation of upper and lower classes, where 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:45.579 the rich live in these sheltered spaces with 00:07:45.579 --> 00:07:48.120 high security, gated communities, and the poor 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:50.860 live with no protection from the ecological disasters 00:07:50.860 --> 00:07:54.259 that have been unleashed. Similarly, we have 00:07:54.259 --> 00:07:58.560 the segregation of the mind where the STEM fields 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.939 are given an excess of funding while the humanities 00:08:00.939 --> 00:08:03.839 and arts have all but been replaced by the art 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.720 of marketing. All of this isolation, all these 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.360 kind of bubbles where people only hear echoes 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.420 of themselves from those around them produce 00:08:12.420 --> 00:08:14.459 a world of stagnation and kind of a groupthink 00:08:14.459 --> 00:08:18.019 mentality. And yeah, there are new innovations 00:08:18.019 --> 00:08:21.560 and this kind of illusion of progress, but the 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:23.639 precarity looming just beneath the surface is 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:26.199 completely ignored. And when ecological disaster 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:29.800 strikes, it can't be held at bay by the gates 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.000 and walls and armed security guards. It doesn't 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:33.840 care how much money you have or how much money 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.179 you lack. It affects everyone. And very few people 00:08:37.179 --> 00:08:39.220 in a novel seem to realize this until it's way 00:08:39.220 --> 00:08:41.940 too late. I can only hope that we're a bit more 00:08:41.940 --> 00:08:43.679 self -conscious than the characters in the book, 00:08:43.700 --> 00:08:47.700 but sometimes I do wonder. I wanted to go back 00:08:47.700 --> 00:08:53.340 to when you were saying that STEM majors and 00:08:53.340 --> 00:08:56.940 like people in STEM fields are like seen as better 00:08:56.940 --> 00:08:59.759 than people in the humanities. Like I can think 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.919 of like so many little examples of this, like 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:05.440 in my own life and I'm sure like in yours as 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.360 well. Or like people like, oh, you're not going 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:10.019 to make a living out of that. Or like the only 00:09:10.019 --> 00:09:11.259 thing you can do with a literature and writing 00:09:11.259 --> 00:09:13.679 major is become a teacher, become a professor, 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:15.980 which is like, first of all, totally not a bad 00:09:15.980 --> 00:09:19.179 thing. But also it's so limiting because we totally 00:09:19.179 --> 00:09:22.500 can do so many things. Like I was just at a Chab's 00:09:22.500 --> 00:09:25.379 career readiness thing. Professor Wallace, he 00:09:25.379 --> 00:09:27.299 had put on with a couple other people who actually 00:09:27.299 --> 00:09:29.899 work at the school who had had like English majors. 00:09:29.940 --> 00:09:31.919 And they were telling us like mostly what they 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:34.480 do now is marketing. But I want to be a creative 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:37.649 person. I want to. like talk about these things 00:09:37.649 --> 00:09:40.610 and like write these kinds of novels and I'm 00:09:40.610 --> 00:09:44.389 like in the book um the main character Jimmy 00:09:44.389 --> 00:09:47.549 he went to Martha Graham it was like university 00:09:47.549 --> 00:09:50.490 or college or whichever it was and that was like 00:09:50.490 --> 00:09:54.110 the humanities the arts but it was like totally 00:09:54.110 --> 00:09:56.169 looked down upon it's like oh you're at Martha 00:09:56.169 --> 00:09:58.970 Graham and you're studying you know all these 00:09:58.970 --> 00:10:01.409 things like the arts and philosophy you're thinking 00:10:01.409 --> 00:10:03.190 about the world who cares you need to be going 00:10:03.190 --> 00:10:08.740 to STEM like like Craig who was seen as this 00:10:08.740 --> 00:10:10.720 really cool, like to Jimmy, he was seen as like 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:12.840 this really cool guy, like this absolute genius, 00:10:12.899 --> 00:10:16.940 but really he led to the end of their world. 00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:21.019 Well, what's interesting about the book is that 00:10:21.019 --> 00:10:24.019 the humanities, Martha Graham, this particular 00:10:24.019 --> 00:10:26.779 school, the humanities and the arts, turns into 00:10:26.779 --> 00:10:29.200 nothing but a marketing school. Their degrees 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:32.200 aren't about art at all. They aren't about philosophy 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:34.299 at all. It's about... marketing. It's about learning 00:10:34.299 --> 00:10:37.039 how to sell the products that the people at the 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:41.200 STEM schools are going to produce. So it's a 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.039 little unfair to say that these STEM students 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:46.759 are privileged, though they are in some ways, 00:10:46.940 --> 00:10:49.019 because the STEM students are placed in the same 00:10:49.019 --> 00:10:52.259 position. There's no sense of research for the 00:10:52.259 --> 00:10:54.240 sake of research, research for the sake of knowledge. 00:10:54.299 --> 00:10:56.039 It's all about research for the sake of money. 00:10:57.259 --> 00:10:59.340 That's something I'd totally forgotten about 00:10:59.340 --> 00:11:03.519 because I did read it a year ago. But it stuck 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:06.840 out so much in my mind, this book. I also wanted 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:10.279 to talk about how climate fiction often evokes 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:12.919 a lot of emotions. I know I definitely felt a 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:17.240 lot of them, like dread, grief, dark humor. I 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:20.700 know in our class, having conversation about 00:11:20.700 --> 00:11:24.419 what we were reading helped me move from... fear 00:11:24.419 --> 00:11:27.600 to agency. But how do you as a professor feel 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:32.580 like presenting this book to us? Well, this is 00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:37.460 a problem with the book. And part of why I don't 00:11:37.460 --> 00:11:39.659 teach it in my environmental class, I teach it 00:11:39.659 --> 00:11:43.419 in my critical thinking class, because the book 00:11:43.419 --> 00:11:46.440 doesn't provide us with solutions. The book is 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:49.519 a novel of disaster. It's a novel where there 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:51.879 is no message of repair. The world is beyond 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:55.500 the chance of repair. Really, the only way to 00:11:55.500 --> 00:11:58.120 find a message of responsibility in this book 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.720 is to kind of read it in a mirror. Look at what 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:04.379 the characters do, what the society does, how 00:12:04.379 --> 00:12:07.159 the world functions in this book, and try to 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:11.080 do the opposite of all those things. So in other 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:14.080 words, do not give corporations the power to 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:17.580 control your lives. Do not become complacent 00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:19.740 about mass extinction and ecological disaster. 00:12:20.649 --> 00:12:23.129 Do not isolate and segregate bodies and minds 00:12:23.129 --> 00:12:25.789 and find ways to communicate across demographics, 00:12:25.889 --> 00:12:28.450 even when some demographics seem to be at cross 00:12:28.450 --> 00:12:31.769 purposes with your own perspective. But none 00:12:31.769 --> 00:12:33.929 of these things are directly in the book. We 00:12:33.929 --> 00:12:35.690 see the opposite of all those things going on 00:12:35.690 --> 00:12:39.009 in the book. Where do you see climate justice 00:12:39.009 --> 00:12:42.610 or injustice, mostly injustice, in this book? 00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:45.970 Like whose lives are protected, whose are expendable, 00:12:46.110 --> 00:12:48.289 and who decides? I know we can definitely talk 00:12:48.289 --> 00:12:52.000 about the plebe lands. Sure. Sure. Yeah, I mean, 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:55.059 I guess there's two places we can look. One, 00:12:55.700 --> 00:12:57.659 we can look at the plebe lands and think about 00:12:57.659 --> 00:13:01.600 how the rich live in their gated, highly secure 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:04.899 communities that are essentially prisons that 00:13:04.899 --> 00:13:07.340 they stay in. Even though they perceive it as 00:13:07.340 --> 00:13:09.779 having this absolute luxury, they're trapped 00:13:09.779 --> 00:13:12.820 in these little spaces all the time. And then 00:13:12.820 --> 00:13:16.279 the plebe lands, which is where there is no protection, 00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:20.470 there is no security, there are... limited resources, 00:13:20.690 --> 00:13:24.809 and this is for the poor. And this is also where 00:13:24.809 --> 00:13:28.149 all of the new products are tested, is on the 00:13:28.149 --> 00:13:30.230 people living in the plebeians before they're 00:13:30.230 --> 00:13:36.549 imported into the high upper class areas. So 00:13:36.549 --> 00:13:38.149 there's certainly that going on in the book, 00:13:38.289 --> 00:13:42.710 this kind of valuing of those who work for the 00:13:42.710 --> 00:13:44.929 corporations who live in the gated communities 00:13:44.929 --> 00:13:49.509 versus everyone else who... have access to nothing 00:13:49.509 --> 00:13:54.049 the other place is the pandemic itself because 00:13:54.049 --> 00:13:57.350 one of the characters intentionally unleashes 00:13:57.350 --> 00:14:02.509 this engineered pandemic and this becomes a real 00:14:02.509 --> 00:14:06.409 a real problem he does it for a reason he does 00:14:06.409 --> 00:14:09.309 it in order to wipe out humanity and he does 00:14:09.309 --> 00:14:11.970 this because he believes it's the logical choice 00:14:11.970 --> 00:14:18.299 and Of course, I think we can easily agree that 00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:21.419 genocide is unacceptable, that the choice he 00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:24.860 has made is wrong in every possible way, but 00:14:24.860 --> 00:14:27.220 the illogical action that he makes is paradoxically 00:14:27.220 --> 00:14:30.500 done for a completely logical reason. So getting 00:14:30.500 --> 00:14:32.519 back to our critical thinking class from a year 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:35.399 ago, if humanity is destroying the environment, 00:14:35.539 --> 00:14:38.419 then all life will die through this ecological 00:14:38.419 --> 00:14:42.159 disaster. But... If we remove humanity from the 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:44.460 equation, then only humanity will die and ecological 00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:47.059 disaster will be avoided. So do you want disaster 00:14:47.059 --> 00:14:50.440 or not? Do you want all life to die or just humanity? 00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:54.220 So quantifiably, the solution appears to be better. 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:57.639 Sacrifice humanity for everyone, for every other 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:02.559 life, for all other life. But the fact that this 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:04.759 solution seems viable in the first place indicates 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:06.940 this kind of erosion of the humanities and the 00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:09.940 arts. It indicates a kind of replacement of careful 00:15:09.940 --> 00:15:13.299 ethical investigation with a quantifiable and 00:15:13.299 --> 00:15:17.759 market -based cost -benefit analysis. And that's 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:22.759 problematic. The character for all of his brilliance 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:26.519 has still been trained by the society to think 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:28.580 in terms of numbers and numbers only and not 00:15:28.580 --> 00:15:33.220 to consider anything else. I wanted to talk more 00:15:33.220 --> 00:15:35.539 about ethical tensions. I know we were definitely 00:15:35.539 --> 00:15:38.730 already going. talking about it but i wanted 00:15:38.730 --> 00:15:44.649 to talk about playing god which craig does his 00:15:44.649 --> 00:15:49.429 whole career basically um and then optimism in 00:15:49.429 --> 00:15:52.789 technology versus precaution which i feel like 00:15:52.789 --> 00:15:57.389 is so so relevant today um then maybe i don't 00:15:57.389 --> 00:15:59.570 know corporate responsibility value of non -human 00:15:59.570 --> 00:16:04.850 life we can just um go in and around sure uh 00:16:04.850 --> 00:16:08.269 so I don't believe, if we're still speaking about 00:16:08.269 --> 00:16:11.529 Oryx and Kraykira, I don't believe the book is 00:16:11.529 --> 00:16:15.529 a Luddite book that it wants to kind of eliminate 00:16:15.529 --> 00:16:18.590 all technology and go back to some pre -technological 00:16:18.590 --> 00:16:21.129 world. I don't think that that's a viable solution. 00:16:21.289 --> 00:16:23.190 I don't think that's ever going to happen. We're 00:16:23.190 --> 00:16:25.210 stuck with what we have, whether we like it or 00:16:25.210 --> 00:16:30.070 not. But how we use these things is what we need 00:16:30.070 --> 00:16:32.190 to start thinking about. And in order to use 00:16:32.190 --> 00:16:34.990 technology differently. To use technology with 00:16:34.990 --> 00:16:37.750 more responsibility, it requires us to change 00:16:37.750 --> 00:16:40.370 our perspective, to change the kind of paradigm 00:16:40.370 --> 00:16:42.289 in which we think about the world around us. 00:16:43.529 --> 00:16:47.450 As it is, we think about how technology can be 00:16:47.450 --> 00:16:51.090 used to benefit one organism, and that's human 00:16:51.090 --> 00:16:56.269 beings, and how it affects anything else, living 00:16:56.269 --> 00:17:00.549 or non -living, barely gets thought about, and 00:17:00.549 --> 00:17:04.640 that itself is problematic. Okay, a couple more 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.140 things about Orcs in Creek and then we can get 00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:09.740 into other environmental lit stuff. What's one 00:17:09.740 --> 00:17:12.599 moment in Orcs in Creek that you use to spark 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:17.440 debate in class? Probably the biggest one is 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.420 the pandemic. Kind of what we've just been talking 00:17:20.420 --> 00:17:25.039 about is this getting to think about why a character 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:29.480 might believe that this kind of extreme action 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:33.410 is justice. And exactly where do we draw the 00:17:33.410 --> 00:17:36.730 line? When does an action for justice become 00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:41.369 itself unjust? And that is not an easy one to 00:17:41.369 --> 00:17:45.390 pinpoint. I don't think it's a contextual thing. 00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:49.630 It depends on the particular situation. But clearly, 00:17:49.730 --> 00:17:53.150 when we engage in genocide, it's pretty obvious 00:17:53.150 --> 00:17:56.170 where we stand here, where we've taken things 00:17:56.170 --> 00:17:59.970 too far. But again, he does it. with best intentions 00:17:59.970 --> 00:18:02.789 in mind. He genuinely believes that this is what's 00:18:02.789 --> 00:18:05.789 best for life. In a utilitarian sense, he's right. 00:18:06.150 --> 00:18:10.390 But in every other sense, it's very, very problematic. 00:18:12.210 --> 00:18:15.549 Yeah, I remember we had really interesting conversations. 00:18:15.609 --> 00:18:18.730 And when I was reading it, I was like, having 00:18:18.730 --> 00:18:25.259 such turmoil within myself, because Like as a 00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:28.240 person, I was born in 2005, so I've grown up 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.859 with technology, grown up with like environmental 00:18:31.859 --> 00:18:34.460 disaster and all these things just like being 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:36.440 inevitable, like, oh, you know, we're destroying 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.180 the planet. That's the normal fact of real life. 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:45.700 So when Craig was like arguing to Jimmy about 00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:52.319 like why he should destroy humanity, I was. Yeah, 00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:54.700 I was having that turmoil because I was so angry 00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:57.579 at humanity for having destroyed the Earth. And 00:18:57.579 --> 00:19:00.279 like I have been like my family raised me to 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:02.099 always care about animals, always care about 00:19:02.099 --> 00:19:05.099 the environment, always care about just like 00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:08.700 the planet that we live on. So while, of course, 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:14.539 who wants all of humanity to die? I was. Yeah, 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.579 it was it was really interesting to think about 00:19:16.579 --> 00:19:20.180 and to ponder. Well, I think this this kind of 00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:24.200 leads to that. learning to shift our perspective. 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.400 Because unquestionably, we can point to humanity 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.240 and say that this particular organism, human 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:36.660 beings, is very much the problem. But we also 00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:40.440 can unquestionably say that genocide is not an 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.940 option. And if we're not going to do the thing 00:19:43.940 --> 00:19:46.619 that this character does in this book, then how 00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:49.259 do we make sure that this particular organism 00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:52.039 does not continue in the trajectory that it that 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:54.819 it's heading. And I think that's part of what 00:19:54.819 --> 00:19:57.980 we're seeing in a lot of more contemporary texts 00:19:57.980 --> 00:20:00.440 is a kind of call to change that perspective. 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:06.359 I read a book by Travis Holloway called How to 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:09.900 Live at the End of the World from 2022. And he 00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:12.680 talks about an art installation by Sarah Ann 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:15.839 Johnson called Schooner and Fireworks. And at 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.579 the center of this installation is a little... 00:20:18.750 --> 00:20:21.289 sculpture of a sailboat, a schooner. And from 00:20:21.289 --> 00:20:23.849 the top mast to the schooner, there's this kind 00:20:23.849 --> 00:20:27.230 of ever -widening cyclone of oceanic organisms 00:20:27.230 --> 00:20:30.630 that fill the sky up around it. So the ship is 00:20:30.630 --> 00:20:32.650 given this privileged position in the center 00:20:32.650 --> 00:20:36.150 of the piece, but this position of privilege 00:20:36.150 --> 00:20:39.650 is kind of ironically diminished by the intertwined 00:20:39.650 --> 00:20:41.650 and interknotted assemblage of life expanding 00:20:41.650 --> 00:20:44.410 outward above it, a knotting which it's intrinsically 00:20:44.410 --> 00:20:47.369 a part of. And I think... Thinking about our 00:20:47.369 --> 00:20:50.549 lives in this way is part of how we're going 00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:57.289 to move towards discarding narratives of mastery 00:20:57.289 --> 00:21:01.410 and species supremacy that we seem to be so invested 00:21:01.410 --> 00:21:07.589 in. Okay, let's take a step beyond Atwood now. 00:21:07.849 --> 00:21:12.650 And I would love to hear about some books and 00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:18.170 films. media that you teach and recommend and 00:21:18.170 --> 00:21:21.490 why you recommend them. All right. I'll talk 00:21:21.490 --> 00:21:24.730 about two texts. I'll bring up four, but I'll 00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:28.710 just talk about two. So one that I always teach 00:21:28.710 --> 00:21:33.349 and that everybody thinks I'm a bit crazy for 00:21:33.349 --> 00:21:35.069 teaching at first, and then they change their 00:21:35.069 --> 00:21:37.720 mind. and end up really liking this book, I always 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.039 get compliments about this book, is Robin Wall 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:43.420 Kimmerer's Gathering Moss from 2003. It's a nonfiction 00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:46.180 collection of essays about the surprisingly fascinating 00:21:46.180 --> 00:21:49.279 role of moss in the environment. But it's also 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:51.059 about what can be learned through an indigenous 00:21:51.059 --> 00:21:53.740 perspective regarding our role amongst the natural 00:21:53.740 --> 00:21:58.500 world. So that's the kind of nonfiction text 00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:06.119 I think is a useful one to be aware of. In drama, 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.680 we have Madeline George's Hurricane Diane from 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.900 2017. And it's a satirical play about the god 00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:16.420 Dionysus who comes back to Earth and comes to 00:22:16.420 --> 00:22:19.740 a suburban cul -de -sac in New Jersey. And then 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:22.880 Dionysus has to convince the women living there 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.599 to transform their perfectly manicured lawns 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:28.160 into ecosystems full of sustainable indigenous 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:32.140 plant life. And it's... very much about the absolute 00:22:32.140 --> 00:22:35.000 resistance experienced by them, even in the face 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.259 of environmental disaster. That sounds really 00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:39.720 interesting. My mom and I have always talked 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:43.460 about like, why do we just have plain green lawns? 00:22:43.460 --> 00:22:45.119 Because we live like somewhere where we have 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:48.259 an HOA. So it has to be a very specific way of 00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:51.500 doing it. But my mom decided to totally redo 00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:55.359 our front yard. And now it's like a bunch of 00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:59.549 agave. I, yeah, a bunch of succulents, nothing 00:22:59.549 --> 00:23:01.630 that needs a lot of water. That makes sense. 00:23:01.869 --> 00:23:04.650 Yeah, of course, water builds it, but also, you 00:23:04.650 --> 00:23:08.869 know, sustainability. So yeah. Yeah, yeah, I 00:23:08.869 --> 00:23:12.230 think that's the resistance that we get from 00:23:12.230 --> 00:23:14.769 HOAs and things like that, that to say, no, it 00:23:14.769 --> 00:23:18.809 must be this particular look, it has to match 00:23:18.809 --> 00:23:20.849 this particular aesthetic, even if that aesthetic 00:23:20.849 --> 00:23:23.170 makes absolutely no sense within the environment 00:23:23.170 --> 00:23:26.049 that we live. It's one thing to have green grass 00:23:26.049 --> 00:23:29.569 in, say, New Jersey, it's very different to have 00:23:29.569 --> 00:23:35.390 green grass in Arizona. But the other two novels 00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:38.130 that I'd like to mention, and forgive me if I 00:23:38.130 --> 00:23:42.210 stick with literature, I'm a lit professor, but 00:23:42.210 --> 00:23:45.289 the two novels I'd like to focus on briefly is 00:23:45.289 --> 00:23:49.569 one by the Alaskan author Maymay Evans from 2013 00:23:49.569 --> 00:23:52.470 called Oil and Water. So it's a fictionalized 00:23:52.470 --> 00:23:54.430 but highly realistic account of an oil spill 00:23:54.430 --> 00:23:57.339 off the Alaskan coast. clearly inspired by the 00:23:57.339 --> 00:24:01.299 Exxon Valdez oil spill from 1989. And what Evans 00:24:01.299 --> 00:24:04.279 does is she considers our complex relationship 00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:07.859 with the oil industry and what Vandana Shiva 00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:11.559 would call our addiction to oil. So on one hand, 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:13.680 it's very obvious. The oil corporation is to 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:16.599 blame for the spill. That's the easy answer. 00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:22.160 And it's absolutely true. But the blame can't 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.960 stop there. Because there's also the individual 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.079 pilot of the oil tanker who caused this accident. 00:24:29.420 --> 00:24:33.940 He must be considered in the equation. And there 00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:36.339 are all the people on the Alaskan coast who rely 00:24:36.339 --> 00:24:38.819 on that corporation directly or indirectly for 00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:41.720 employment. And there's all the people who own 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:44.920 a combustion engine car and those who flew on 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:47.960 airliners and the fishermen whose boats are reliant 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.940 on that oil. So to simply say the corporation 00:24:51.940 --> 00:24:55.940 is at fault, While true, it doesn't take into 00:24:55.940 --> 00:24:58.359 account the much bigger picture of how many people 00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:02.700 are involved, including those who feel very strongly 00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:08.460 about the oil industry. So Evans does that, and 00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:10.680 Evans also considers social justice and cleanup 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.720 after the oil spill. So how much should be expected 00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:15.960 of an individual in the community? How much should 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:17.880 be expected from the corporation? How much from 00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:20.400 the government? What actions are considered enough? 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:24.700 What actions are too little? Where does non -action 00:25:24.700 --> 00:25:27.500 come into play? And no matter how much we're 00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:30.200 willing to do, how much are we really preventing 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:32.880 the next environmental disaster if we don't change 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:34.740 our relationship with oil in the first place? 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:36.920 So this kind of realist novel is helpful for 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:40.500 us to think about these kinds of things. But 00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:44.279 realism can only take you so far. So there's 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:47.759 also a more speculative fiction with Jeff Vandermeer's 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.910 Annihilation from 2014. So this gets us to critique 00:25:51.910 --> 00:25:54.269 models of mastery and taming that have been prevalent 00:25:54.269 --> 00:25:58.390 in our culture for so long. So we have this government 00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:00.369 -funded expedition that goes into this strange 00:26:00.369 --> 00:26:03.529 region called Area X, and each person brings 00:26:03.529 --> 00:26:06.230 their particular expertise to the expedition. 00:26:07.069 --> 00:26:10.369 And this expertise is used in order to better 00:26:10.369 --> 00:26:13.029 know the region in every possible way. So what 00:26:13.029 --> 00:26:15.029 they're trying to do is remove all traces of 00:26:15.029 --> 00:26:17.970 mystery, all traces of uncertainty. And they 00:26:17.970 --> 00:26:19.930 believe that through this, they can kind of tame 00:26:19.930 --> 00:26:22.089 this wilderness. And in taming the wilderness, 00:26:22.369 --> 00:26:25.650 they can possess it. And in possessing it, they 00:26:25.650 --> 00:26:28.130 can turn it into this inert object rather than 00:26:28.130 --> 00:26:31.309 a dynamic living thing. So with this kind of 00:26:31.309 --> 00:26:33.789 tunnel vision of mastery and taming, what happens 00:26:33.789 --> 00:26:36.869 is we start to fail to notice all the other world 00:26:36.869 --> 00:26:39.670 -making projects that overlap our own, all these 00:26:39.670 --> 00:26:42.029 projects that are interwoven with our own, that 00:26:42.029 --> 00:26:44.769 are not us and yet cannot be separated from us. 00:26:45.289 --> 00:26:48.069 Area X, for instance, is remaking the world in 00:26:48.069 --> 00:26:50.130 its own way, and it resists all the attempts 00:26:50.130 --> 00:26:53.150 to contain it. It integrates aspects of our own 00:26:53.150 --> 00:26:55.430 action into itself, but also subverts those actions 00:26:55.430 --> 00:27:01.349 for its own purposes. And lastly, there's a creature 00:27:01.349 --> 00:27:03.789 in this book called the Crawler that studies 00:27:03.789 --> 00:27:05.609 one of the characters as if she were nothing 00:27:05.609 --> 00:27:08.269 more than a specimen in a lab. She's poked and 00:27:08.269 --> 00:27:10.450 prodded, ripped apart and stitched back together, 00:27:10.549 --> 00:27:13.029 and then discarded once there doesn't appear 00:27:13.029 --> 00:27:16.539 to be anything left to learn. The broken character 00:27:16.539 --> 00:27:18.559 lies on the ground afterwards. It's immobile 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:20.819 and still like the inner object of study within 00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:24.660 the paradigm of mastery. So by turning that paradigm 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:28.220 onto ourselves and seeing how monstrous it appears, 00:27:28.339 --> 00:27:31.099 it helps us think about how we might need to 00:27:31.099 --> 00:27:34.779 change that perspective in the first place. I 00:27:34.779 --> 00:27:40.019 love Annihilation so much. I was at a literature 00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:42.779 and writing club meeting and we were doing a 00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:44.779 book swap, which they still do, which is so cool. 00:27:44.859 --> 00:27:46.559 If you guys are literature and writing majors, 00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:48.799 go to the literature and writing club meetings, 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:50.579 even though I don't go all the time. Anyways, 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:53.420 so I had borrowed it from somebody and then I 00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:55.880 completely forgot to actually finish it. And 00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:57.480 then I had to give it back to him this semester. 00:28:00.730 --> 00:28:03.210 this like i've heard so much about it and i wanted 00:28:03.210 --> 00:28:05.230 to watch the movie which i also never finished 00:28:05.230 --> 00:28:07.390 which is actually a problem of mine if not finishing 00:28:07.390 --> 00:28:09.529 things it's okay if you didn't finish the movie 00:28:09.529 --> 00:28:11.990 yeah i heard it was so much different from the 00:28:11.990 --> 00:28:15.490 book but i had like people had told me the story 00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:17.509 so like i know it but i've never actually read 00:28:17.509 --> 00:28:20.029 it but it's so fascinating to me especially the 00:28:20.029 --> 00:28:23.190 when you were talking about the creature and 00:28:23.190 --> 00:28:27.359 what you said about like how we can Like if it's 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:29.759 being done to us or being done to something that 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.779 we see as human, like we realize, oh, this is 00:28:33.779 --> 00:28:37.460 what's happening. Here's a mirror. Great stuff. 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:41.839 I'm excited to read, put these on my book list. 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:47.440 Okay. How do these works and maybe environmental 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:52.119 literature in general shift readers from spectators 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.329 of apocalypse to participants in solutions? Well, 00:28:56.369 --> 00:29:01.970 I think environmental, whether it's films or 00:29:01.970 --> 00:29:03.990 documentaries, novels, nonfiction, painting, 00:29:04.109 --> 00:29:07.150 sculpture, theater, whatever it is, this art 00:29:07.150 --> 00:29:09.210 maintains a conversation about human relations 00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:12.130 to the non -human world. It reminds us that this 00:29:12.130 --> 00:29:15.670 conversation is ongoing and must remain so. It 00:29:15.670 --> 00:29:18.549 helps to prevent us from simply shrugging and 00:29:18.549 --> 00:29:20.329 deciding that the end has come or that there's 00:29:20.329 --> 00:29:22.410 nothing we can do or that our actions are meaningless. 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:25.480 The moment these actions cease is the moment 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:27.759 that we are truly lost. So engaging in the arts 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:29.819 is one of the many ways we can keep this conversation 00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:32.380 alive. Not the only way, but one of the ways. 00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:36.559 I definitely agree. Something that really helps 00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:40.420 me to process my emotions, just about anything, 00:29:40.619 --> 00:29:44.440 but especially about fears about the climate 00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:50.420 crisis, is to have conversations. Okay. What's 00:29:50.420 --> 00:29:53.960 a small, specific practice you use to stay engaged 00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:59.119 in climate justice without burning out? Without 00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:02.539 burning out is the hard part, isn't it? I guess, 00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:06.299 let me give you two very small things, I guess. 00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:12.519 One, this may surprise you, but I read. I watch 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:14.980 films. I go to plays. I engage with the arts 00:30:14.980 --> 00:30:17.000 in order to hear a discourse on the environment 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:19.099 that goes beyond my own personal feelings about 00:30:19.099 --> 00:30:22.319 it. So I engage in the art for the beauty of 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:24.319 the art, but also for the message that the art 00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:28.819 can provide. And secondly, I just find time to 00:30:28.819 --> 00:30:30.660 go into the natural world, just to go outside, 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:35.000 to experience nature firsthand. I try not to 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.559 forget that it exists amidst the kind of busyness 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:39.579 of our anthropocentric lives, which is often 00:30:39.579 --> 00:30:42.420 very hard to do. I try to listen to what it has 00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:45.180 to tell me to hear and value the voices and messages 00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:47.650 of the non -human. And that's something that 00:30:47.650 --> 00:30:49.970 I think we have a very hard time doing. We assume 00:30:49.970 --> 00:30:53.869 that the only message available to us comes from 00:30:53.869 --> 00:30:56.829 the voices of other people. And while those are 00:30:56.829 --> 00:31:00.130 very important, there are so many messages being 00:31:00.130 --> 00:31:03.730 told to us from the rest of the natural world 00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:08.630 that warrant listening to. Yeah. I know sometimes 00:31:08.630 --> 00:31:13.089 when I'm just so stressed from everything, like 00:31:13.089 --> 00:31:16.910 this semester, I was doing a play, and I'm also 00:31:16.910 --> 00:31:20.890 a journalist on campus. And midterms were coming 00:31:20.890 --> 00:31:23.490 up, and so much was happening. I was like, okay, 00:31:23.549 --> 00:31:26.089 I'm just going to go for a walk. And I was like, 00:31:26.130 --> 00:31:29.089 maybe I'll just sit outside, listen to the birds, 00:31:29.410 --> 00:31:32.589 look at the trees. And even if it's like, oh, 00:31:32.630 --> 00:31:34.490 all these buildings, because I was at school, 00:31:34.650 --> 00:31:39.549 I was like, okay, I feel a bit calmer and ready 00:31:39.549 --> 00:31:43.589 to do things. And sometimes I just forget. But 00:31:43.589 --> 00:31:47.109 it's important to get back into just taking a 00:31:47.109 --> 00:31:50.970 breath, trying to be one with nature, however 00:31:50.970 --> 00:31:55.450 you would like to say it. And Anand Singh talks 00:31:55.450 --> 00:31:57.970 about these kind of overlapping world -making 00:31:57.970 --> 00:32:00.289 projects and about the different tempos in which 00:32:00.289 --> 00:32:04.109 they occur. So the tempo of our life is very 00:32:04.109 --> 00:32:08.450 fast. The tempo of modern human life is extremely 00:32:08.450 --> 00:32:11.650 fast and never stops. There are no pauses, no 00:32:11.650 --> 00:32:14.750 rests, just goes and goes and goes. But when 00:32:14.750 --> 00:32:16.730 we step out of that, when we start to look around 00:32:16.730 --> 00:32:20.589 ourselves and listen to other songs being played 00:32:20.589 --> 00:32:23.970 by the world around us, it forces us to change 00:32:23.970 --> 00:32:26.990 our tempo. And I think that changes our perspective 00:32:26.990 --> 00:32:29.670 greatly and allows us to hear something other 00:32:29.670 --> 00:32:35.059 than ourselves for once. Definitely. How delightful. 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.920 Okay. Thank you so much for being on our podcast. 00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.559 It was such a delight to talk with you again 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:47.000 and to hear about your perspective on environmental 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.019 literature and your perspective on our world 00:32:50.019 --> 00:32:52.160 and to hear a couple more titles that we can 00:32:52.160 --> 00:33:00.660 put on our book lists. Okay. Want to hear more 00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:03.660 from Climate to Action, a CSUSM student podcast? 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:06.839 Listen wherever you get your podcasts and follow 00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:10.019 us on our socials at Climate to Action. For Instagram 00:33:10.019 --> 00:33:13.640 and YouTube, that's Climate2Action. For TikTok, 00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:17.859 it's Climate2Action. Visit for updates, behind 00:33:17.859 --> 00:33:20.440 -the -scenes content, and more. Climate2Action 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:24.059 is recorded at the Inspiration Studios on the 00:33:24.059 --> 00:33:28.079 CSUSM campus. Our podcast is funded in part by 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:30.940 a generous donation by the Rosemary Kramer Raitt 00:33:30.940 --> 00:33:34.740 Foundation. And finally, Climate2Action wants 00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:37.599 to remind you to take climate action. For this 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:41.109 episode, we say... Go read one of the books Professor 00:33:41.109 --> 00:33:44.029 Winchock has recommended. Until next time, this 00:33:44.029 --> 00:33:46.650 is Saturn from Climate Action signing off.