1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,640 This is Climate to Action, a California State University San Marco Student Podcast. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:12,200 We're here to amplify voices and empower solutions in the fight against climate change 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,940 and to address climate injustices for all people. 4 00:00:14,940 --> 00:00:18,640 We are committed to incorporating discussions on indigenous knowledge and addressing the 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,760 climate crisis and in providing a call to action in every episode. 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:27,800 My name is Makair Sites and I'm an ENVS student here at CSUSM. 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:33,040 And I'm Michael Giles, also an ENVS student here at Cal State San Marcos and producer 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,920 of Climate to Action. 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,840 Before we begin, we'd like to acknowledge that CSUSM is located on the traditional territory 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,400 of Luseno-Payom-Kuichum people. 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,400 The university and surrounding areas are still home to the six federally recognized bands 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:52,840 of the La Jolla, Pala, Pama, Pachenga, Vringon, and Suboba-Luseno-Payom-Kuichum people. 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,120 In this land remains the shared space among the Coupeño, Cumay, and E-Pie peoples. 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,440 Again, welcome to Climate to Action. 15 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:13,680 In today's episode, we're going to be focused on climate justice and indigenous knowledge. 16 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,240 Today with us, we have author of the book, As Long as Grass Grows, and lecturer here 17 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,120 at CSU San Marcos, Dina Jilio Whitaker. 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,840 Professor, thank you for being here with us today. 19 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,920 Well thank you for inviting me. 20 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:34,000 So in your book, As Long as Grass Grows, it's actually taught here in several classes at 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,360 CSUSM. 22 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:41,760 Would you be able to tell us more about yourself, the inspiration behind the book, and its 23 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,320 connection to the climate crisis and climate justice? 24 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:47,320 Sure. 25 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:51,240 Well that's a long story, so I'll try to keep it brief. 26 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:58,160 But that book is really a direct result of my own journey as a student when I was an 27 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:03,920 undergrad at the University of New Mexico in Native American Studies. 28 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:12,160 And to make a long story short, I took a course on environmental justice in the Native American 29 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,680 Studies department. 30 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:21,120 And then when I got into grad school, I took another environmental justice course. 31 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:26,800 And I noticed how environmental justice was being framed. 32 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:34,200 There was some big gaps, especially as it was concerning American Indian people. 33 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:44,800 And so I was taught, and as you're developing your academic sort of path, you look for the 34 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:51,360 holes in the literature, you look to find ways to make interventions into whatever field 35 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:52,360 you're in. 36 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,760 And so it looked to me like a place ripe for intervention. 37 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:04,920 And so why wrote a master's thesis theorizing what environmental justice looked like when 38 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:07,840 American Indian people are centered. 39 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:13,280 And because environmental justice, the way it's normally taught and framed, it talks 40 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:18,280 about environmental racism as like the foundation, that there's this very particular type of 41 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,960 racism that happens. 42 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,520 And that's absolutely true. 43 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:31,760 But for me, what I knew is that a racial analysis or a race-based analysis was not enough to 44 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,200 encompass American Indian concerns. 45 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:41,640 And so the job for me was to expand that and to take all of the things that are important 46 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:47,240 for American Indian people into consideration so that we can come to a different conversation 47 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:48,280 about it. 48 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:57,240 And so it changes when we're talking about sovereignty, the nation-to-nation relationship 49 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:04,520 that tribes have with the United States, the factors of land loss, and the foundation 50 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,280 of this country being founded on stolen land. 51 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:13,480 All of these things, development, the building of the infrastructure of this country, in 52 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:18,360 consideration with indigenous relationships to land, which are very different, founded 53 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:25,040 on a very different orientation to the world, a philosophical foundation, all of that changes 54 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,960 the conversation about what environmental justice means. 55 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:32,040 So that's where it came out of. 56 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,480 Climate change and the climate crisis is really just a subset. 57 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:42,360 If we talk about climate justice, climate justice, and this is how I teach it, is a subset 58 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:43,800 of environmental justice. 59 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:50,880 So the bigger conversation in my mind is this thing that we call environmental justice, 60 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,720 and then climate falls underneath that umbrella. 61 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,760 So it's like a more focused lens of environmental justice, almost? 62 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:01,760 Yeah. 63 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:02,960 Yeah, I would say so. 64 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:09,520 I mean, there really wasn't a conversation about climate justice until there was a conversation 65 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,960 about environmental justice more broadly. 66 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,320 In your book, you mentioned indigenizing climate justice. 67 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,800 Is that what you mean with the indigenous, more focused, indigenous-centered focus on 68 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:24,800 environmental justice? 69 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,280 Is that what you're referring to? 70 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:34,280 In terms of climate change, so native people have also a different relationship to climate 71 00:05:34,280 --> 00:05:36,280 change compared to other populations. 72 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:38,480 I mean, there's a lot of overlap. 73 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,880 Everybody is subject to it. 74 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:51,680 But for native people, it's part of this history of colonialism and some of the scholarship 75 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,920 that we're reading, especially I'm thinking of Kyle White, who put it so succinctly when 76 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:06,600 he said climate change is intensified colonialism for native people because we have, that's 77 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:07,680 where it comes from. 78 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:16,480 It's the imposition of all these systems that colonization brings, especially capitalism. 79 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:22,720 Being capitalism is that which really is responsible for the climate crisis. 80 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:31,880 Well, that definitely dovetails with this idea of colonialism being that which is predominantly 81 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:38,080 responsible for, because capitalism is hand-in-hand with colonialism. 82 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,600 It's not all humans that are responsible for climate change, too. 83 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:49,120 It's only certain kinds of humans with certain kinds of lifestyles and ways of being in the 84 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,400 world based on these capitalist values. 85 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:59,640 That's what gives us climate change, the concept of ownership and private property and the 86 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:09,720 exploitation of land and environment and not having a worldview that understands a relationship 87 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:16,600 to the land that's responsible and sustainable, which is really an indigenous worldview. 88 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:22,080 It's the lack of that, that what gets us here to climate change to begin with. 89 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:28,520 Can you go into more about that in terms of indigenous knowledge in a localized area, 90 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,760 like traditional ecological knowledge? 91 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:39,200 Can you explain how you talk about it in your book and how it relates here in San Diego? 92 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:45,800 Traditional ecological knowledge is one type of indigenous knowledge. 93 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:53,200 If we think about indigenous knowledge being the kind of knowledge that comes as a result 94 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:59,520 of what it means to live in a very particular ecosystem and to live with a very particular 95 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,480 set of values, an orientation to the world. 96 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:11,880 Traditional ecological knowledge would imply the ways that native people lived within those 97 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:19,320 environments in very particular ways that use the environment, that use their ecosystems 98 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:25,760 in very intelligent and deliberate ways. 99 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:31,840 We have this sort of mythology in this country that native people lived in harmony with the 100 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:40,760 land and they never interacted, they're never imposed on the environment. 101 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:46,960 They lived gently and didn't alter the environment in any kind of way. 102 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,440 Well, that's really not true. 103 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:57,000 They did alter their environments, but in very particular ways that typically were about 104 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:06,000 ensuring abundant food sources that were about controlling the growth of the overgrowth of 105 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,600 forests. 106 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:14,560 Other ways would be how native people interacted with the ocean in these ocean biomes. 107 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:23,160 I think some of that knowledge is being reclaimed because Kumiai and Payamkiewiczem, Luseno 108 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:29,200 people, were forced off the coast centuries ago by the Spanish. 109 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:36,680 They have become disconnected from those ocean environments, but I'm certain that there 110 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:46,200 are knowledge system embedded inside their languages and inside their stories about how 111 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,640 their relationship to the ocean evolved certain kinds of practices. 112 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:59,480 Probably that would be true with harvesting practices around fish species, abalone, and 113 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:05,160 other kinds of probably even things like kelp and seaweed. 114 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:13,080 There's probably an infinite array of ways that native people exercised these knowledge 115 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:21,600 systems into land management practices that would be true not just here in San Diego, 116 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,600 but all over this continent. 117 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:31,640 Does this knowledge still exist or has it disappeared, would you say? 118 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:42,600 I would say that it still exists and it exists in varying conditions in different places. 119 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:50,240 In places like coastal southern California where the tribes were pushed so inland and 120 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:58,920 dispossessed of the coastal lands, I would say that there's a loss of a lot of knowledge 121 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:07,040 compared to what we might see up in Northern California, for example, or in Alaska, or 122 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:14,120 other ocean-based kinds of cultures that haven't been quite as impacted, but certainly Southern 123 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:19,600 California is a site of some of the most profound impacts. 124 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:26,360 I would say that there's definitely more loss here. 125 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,160 It also remains to be seen about what's also recoverable. 126 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:32,920 I know that that's happening. 127 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:38,800 I know people who are involved in that work in recovering that work and what it means to 128 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:47,520 be in an ocean landscape and to use the ocean in ways that are culturally relevant. 129 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:52,440 We were talking earlier about your community-based work and specifically the ocean conservation 130 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:53,440 and you're an educator. 131 00:11:53,440 --> 00:12:00,240 Do you take the knowledge that you have to try to preserve those indigenous habits and 132 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:05,560 fishing techniques and try to turn that into your conservation work as well with ocean? 133 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:07,560 To some extent, I do. 134 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,320 I always say that I might teach. 135 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:16,200 I teach a course here on this campus on TEK, but I don't teach TEK. 136 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:23,120 I teach about TEK, but I wouldn't call myself a practitioner of TEK. 137 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:31,640 When I teach about it, I teach it from a really holistic perspective that includes land management 138 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:40,480 practices, but it also includes things like policy and the bigger picture stuff around 139 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:48,280 politics and law and activism and community-based work and stuff like that. 140 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:56,960 In terms of your question, like how is that happening in my work community-wise, one example 141 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:02,720 is something I'm working with the Surfrider Foundation right now on. 142 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,920 The Surfrider Foundation, I live in San Clemente and I'm a surfer. 143 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,240 I surf regularly at San Onofre State Beach. 144 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,360 It's an iconic surf break and I'm a local down there. 145 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,440 It's like a home to me. 146 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:28,640 That beach, we are experiencing incredible erosion all over our beaches everywhere in 147 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:29,640 Southern California. 148 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:30,640 Are you eroding? 149 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:31,640 They're changing. 150 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,960 There's a sand crisis. 151 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,400 There's all kinds of problems. 152 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,040 All problems with overgrowth of urchins. 153 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,760 There's all kinds of intertwined problems. 154 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:52,000 One of the problems at San Onofre is the erosion, which has to do with the beaches going away 155 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,080 as a result of the interruption of sand flow. 156 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:02,360 Sand is not accumulating the way it should be for the beaches to maintain themselves. 157 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:11,520 That has to do with the engineering of the coastline in general, building and harbors 158 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,920 and the elimination of the wetlands. 159 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:23,760 There's all kinds of problems that have contributed to this issue in addition to a rising sea. 160 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:32,240 As the seas get warmer, the water expands and this is what causes these rising sea levels. 161 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:38,760 So San Onofre, we've lost in the last 10 years half the parking. 162 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:46,760 San Onofre for those who don't know is an iconic beach where for 100 years people have 163 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,480 been able to drive down on the beach. 164 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:57,960 It's a very important legendary surf break. 165 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,240 The charm of it is that you can drive your car right down on the beach and spend the 166 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,600 day there. 167 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:14,440 This is really the birthplace of surf culture as we know it in California. 168 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:21,440 What happens when the sea is rising and the beach is going away and you lose that parking, 169 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,520 we're literally losing that beach. 170 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:29,080 It's only a matter of time before there's no parking down there at all. 171 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:34,840 One of the potential long-term solutions, we're going to lose it no matter what. 172 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,520 You can't stop the ocean. 173 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,480 That's something that we all have to come to grips with. 174 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,240 Then it becomes a matter of how long can we make the beach last? 175 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,520 We look for nature-based solutions to that. 176 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,480 We're working on a living shorelines restoration project. 177 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:59,240 What that is, it's a nature-based solution to sand replenishment. 178 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:07,920 It's about planting native plants on the beach so that sand will be retained naturally. 179 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,080 Getting rid of some of the hard armoring, that is some of the seawalls that were built 180 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:19,560 there in part of the crisis, the seawall that they built down there really ended up contributing 181 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:25,360 to the speeding up of the erosion. 182 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,640 We knew that was going to happen when they built this wall like several years ago and 183 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,160 now we're living with it. 184 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:32,760 Why would they do that? 185 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,440 Why would we do that? 186 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,760 That's a good question. 187 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:48,560 At the time, the conversation was the sea is coming in, the oceans washing away the road. 188 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:56,120 If we build this wall, it'll save the beach from being closed because if there's no road, 189 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,640 there's no access. 190 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:05,320 They came up with this emergency and that's what the state and surf rider opposed it. 191 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:12,240 The state and some of the local surfer groups were like, no, we have to do something. 192 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:20,120 The state allowed an emergency permit to put this, it's called a riprap wall, a revetment 193 00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:21,440 wall. 194 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:28,240 They built this wall on an emergency basis and surf rider was like, no, we know what 195 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:29,920 happens when you build these walls. 196 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,200 It's going to speed up the erosion. 197 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:40,160 It saved the road for a few years, but here we are now where the road is completely washed 198 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,880 out, the road caved in just about a few weeks ago. 199 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:49,880 Surf San Onofre is completely closed right now because the road got washed out and it 200 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,520 wasn't because of the wall, but the wall contributed to it. 201 00:17:52,520 --> 00:18:00,800 There was this other problem with this drainage pipe, but you can see where the wall ends. 202 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:07,880 It's eaten all around there and it created a weak spot in there that contributed arguably 203 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,640 to the washing out of the road. 204 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,520 That's right where we were intending, where this plan to build this living shorelines 205 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,640 project is. 206 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:26,800 The living shoreline project is based on lots of examples all over this country, especially 207 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:27,800 in the East Coast. 208 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:35,760 They do these sand replenishment projects that are about building, they plant native 209 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:45,160 plants, the sand builds up, builds like a sand dune, and that helps keep the ecosystem intact 210 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,280 and the ocean kind of at bay. 211 00:18:48,280 --> 00:19:00,080 Eventually, like I said, it's going to come no matter what, but if we can use these tools, 212 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,440 they're successful. 213 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,680 They did one, Cardiff. 214 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,880 There's a big living shoreline project in Cardiff. 215 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:14,440 There's a huge one in Ventura that's super successful. 216 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,000 These are nature-based solutions. 217 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:25,160 It acknowledges the problem of what it means to alter a landscape or a beach scape in this 218 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,520 case and the importance of native plants. 219 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:35,560 Both plants, they get choked out by invasive species. 220 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:42,040 That's definitely the case all throughout the Santa Novembere State Park. 221 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:49,320 One of the things that we do is try to do some beach cleanup by eradicating some of the invasive 222 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:55,120 species so that the native species can thrive in those areas. 223 00:19:55,120 --> 00:20:01,040 That's more up, for example, in the Trestles, at the Trestles Beach area. 224 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,120 I know I'm going on and on about this. 225 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,200 No, no, that's good. 226 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:11,960 That just sounds like the native-based solutions are like a callback, I guess, to what tribes 227 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:12,960 did. 228 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,320 Like you said, they did control burns. 229 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,920 It was nature ideas that we could live harmoniously. 230 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:19,200 It wasn't short-term solutions. 231 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:25,720 It was things that actually aided in living with the land in a more harmonious level rather 232 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:32,680 than continuously doing things that would have to be redone, I guess, or things like 233 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,640 the wall where it just continuously erodes the beach and or faster in the wall. 234 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,640 We experienced it for less time. 235 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:47,000 These technological, that brings up another subject, the technological solution. 236 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,720 So much, and I always say, and I know we're getting off script here, but it's to your 237 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:57,240 point about climate change and indigenous knowledge, like what are the intersections of climate 238 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,800 change and indigenous knowledge? 239 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:08,680 I always say we often hear about climate change is a technological problem. 240 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,400 It's a problem of technology, and we can fix it with technology. 241 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,560 Or it's an economic problem. 242 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:24,400 We just change our economics to combat climate change. 243 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,480 I think those are all only partial answers. 244 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:33,200 Ultimately, I believe it's a philosophical problem, and I always say this, because when 245 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:41,480 you live in a society that is exploitive, where the relationship to your land and environment 246 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:46,120 is about exploitation and extraction. 247 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,960 There is no sense of reciprocity with the land. 248 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,200 There is no sense of responsibility to it. 249 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:57,200 There is no sense of what does it mean seven generations down the road. 250 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,320 And for native people, that's the difference. 251 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:11,080 They lived in ecosystems sustainably for millennia because they knew that whatever they did on 252 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:18,160 the land, they had to think about how it was going to impact generations into the future. 253 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:27,000 And so that's why they did not develop the kinds of high technology that Europeans developed. 254 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:32,280 It's not because they weren't smart enough or incapable or didn't have the right kind 255 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:33,280 of civilization. 256 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,080 It was because they had a different set of values. 257 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,720 What they believed their responsibility was to their environments. 258 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,920 They knew what it meant to live within the confines of an ecosystem. 259 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,400 It's that simple. 260 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:54,760 And taken to consideration what you do today and what it's going to impact, who it's going 261 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,000 to impact, and how it's going to impact in the future. 262 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,800 It's really not hard. 263 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:07,520 But European Eurocentric worldviews don't have that kind of ethos. 264 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,640 And that's why it's a philosophical problem. 265 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,880 These are philosophical issues. 266 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,760 These are worldview issues. 267 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:22,800 And so I firmly believe that there will be no sustainable society unless those kinds 268 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:30,000 of values are built into the systems that we have now, which include technology and economics. 269 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,000 Absolutely. 270 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:37,160 And in your book, you mentioned that a lot of policy follows that technology connection 271 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,800 and not so much the longevity. 272 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:46,560 You brought up that with a pipeline that only seven miles of 44% of the total pipeline 273 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:54,080 that runs across the United States, all pipeline have to be monitored or inspected. 274 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,360 And that was really in promotion of that. 275 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:58,040 That policy is a really... 276 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,040 Shocking, right? 277 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,040 Yeah. 278 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,080 When I read that, I was like, what the heck? 279 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,280 That doesn't make any sense. 280 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:09,120 And the policy promotes that lack of care for the environment. 281 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:15,880 And that really shows on the Eurocentric idea and connection with nature is that there 282 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,080 just is no care for it. 283 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,720 Why would you build a pipeline under a body of water? 284 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,720 Yeah. 285 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,240 That's the water source of a tribe and or people. 286 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,040 No, 17 million people. 287 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,040 Oh, yeah. 288 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,040 Not just a tribe. 289 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:35,640 17 million people down water, downstream. 290 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,040 That makes absolutely no sense. 291 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,040 Yeah. 292 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,440 I agree. 293 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,920 And it's one of those things too where there's just like these structures. 294 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:50,800 And I feel like we've talked about this before, but these structures, it's colonial infrastructures, 295 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,240 really what it is. 296 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,800 And it kind of goes back to this idea that you mentioned of domination and domination 297 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,680 of resources, right? 298 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:08,400 How does that alteration of water, of where it's at and how it flows, how does that relate 299 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,480 to the land and how it, I guess, affects indigenous communities? 300 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:21,440 Well, it's one of the huge topics that I talk about and wrote about in the book. 301 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:28,120 But these kinds of infrastructure projects, these national infrastructure projects, the 302 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:35,800 way that I think about it is that they were designed by settlers for settler populations, 303 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,160 growing populations. 304 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:38,680 So why do you build dams? 305 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:46,160 You build dams for flood control, you build dams for water storage, which can then feed 306 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,200 agriculture. 307 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:54,240 And those infrastructures, especially the big giant dams, like on my reservation, the 308 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,600 Grand Coulee Dam was a perfect example. 309 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,800 And that's in the Columbia River watershed. 310 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,600 The Columbia River watershed is incredibly dammed. 311 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:12,000 There are over 60 dams in that watershed, and I've even heard way more than that. 312 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,800 I don't even know if people know how many there are in that watershed. 313 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,320 And it's a big watershed. 314 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:28,680 In the Missouri River watershed, there were the Pick Sloan Act, which was passed in 1944, 315 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,000 only created five dams. 316 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,160 The dams created so much disruption for the tribal communities. 317 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:44,440 They flooded villages, they flooded timber sources, medicine sources, food sources, and 318 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:51,400 displaced thousands of people, thousands of people, five dams. 319 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:58,960 In the Columbia River watershed, where my ancestors are from, when they built the Grand 320 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:06,000 Coulee Dam on our reservation, the Calville Reservation, something similar happened. 321 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,400 People were flooded out of their homes. 322 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,000 But it was a different kind of disaster that happened there. 323 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,640 So this is salmon country. 324 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,920 And the entire Northwest used to be a haven. 325 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:28,360 So much salmon was a very important food source for people. 326 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:34,280 But not only is it a food source, salmon is a keystone species. 327 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:41,200 When you have the collapse of populations of a keystone species, that leads to a cascading 328 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,840 effect of other collapsing systems. 329 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:53,520 And so that's the disaster that's playing out in the Pacific Northwest. 330 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,920 That's one of the reasons they're taking out the dams on the Klamath River, those four 331 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:03,360 dams, to restore the salmon population and the ecosystem. 332 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:11,120 So that's a really obvious example of how settler infrastructure has impacted historically 333 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:15,480 impacted indigenous communities with these salmon runs. 334 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,520 Something similar happened in the northeast. 335 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,480 They have salmon in the northeast too. 336 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,640 Those tribes were cut off from their salmon sources too. 337 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,520 They're fighting this up in Alaska. 338 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,640 They have been for years. 339 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:44,640 So there's all kinds of ways that these settler infrastructure projects impede on indigenous 340 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:55,200 rights or indigenous cultures and rights, but also are tied to climate change. 341 00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:04,280 Over Columbia River watershed, the tributaries and the waterways have been so impacted that 342 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,200 climate change, there's less water flowing in some of those places. 343 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:17,200 So climate change leads to warmer waters, and that also impacts the salmon and other 344 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,200 species. 345 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:23,600 So that's a whole other problem that's playing out. 346 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:29,160 So we heard of this new program called ISIC that's coming out of the CICSE. 347 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,960 Would you be able to explain what that is and what the CICSE is as well? 348 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,440 Yeah, the CICSE is California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center. 349 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:48,080 It's a research center here on campus that's connected to the American Indian Studies Department. 350 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:57,920 And CICSE is, as I said, a research center, and we are in the process of forming the indigenous 351 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,640 climate and environmental collaborative. 352 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:10,800 And it will be housed within CICSE because of, it's a response to some of the things 353 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:16,120 that we've been seeing in the work that we do, like certainly the work that I do out 354 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:24,120 in the community, in the work that I do as a consultant, as an activist, and just a community 355 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,720 member. 356 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:34,680 It has to do with sort of the way that the climate change and environmental policy is 357 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:41,200 going in this country right now, especially under the Biden administration, where we know 358 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:47,840 the Inflation Reduction Act, which is often called Biden's climate bill, right? 359 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,760 It has sort of that nickname. 360 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,840 That was passed in what, 2022? 361 00:30:54,840 --> 00:31:01,400 And he had a really tough time passing it because of the pushback that it was receiving, 362 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,560 but they finally passed it. 363 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,480 And it's a climate bill, basically. 364 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:13,680 And so there's a ton of money, I mean, billions, hundreds of billions of dollars that have 365 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:19,840 been allocated for climate and environmental things. 366 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:28,360 And so there's all this money coming down the pike for research, for policy work, for 367 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:35,880 community work, and for adaptation to climate change, mitigation, everything. 368 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:43,360 So clean energy, everything that is tied to climate change. 369 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:52,080 And so we've been seeing that there's money coming in for research grants. 370 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,320 Even at the state level, this is true, too, in California. 371 00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:03,240 There's billions of dollars being provided for research and all kinds of initiatives. 372 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,840 And this is to college campuses, school campuses? 373 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,480 Yeah, that's definitely part of it. 374 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,240 The UC system alone got $100 million. 375 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,240 Oh, wow. 376 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,240 Yeah. 377 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,240 Just in the last couple of years, that's a lot of money. 378 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,240 Sure is. 379 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,760 It's a lot of money. 380 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:31,320 And so there's, at the same time, the Biden administration has really prioritized environmental 381 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,880 justice and indigenous knowledge. 382 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,160 I mean, they've issued policy statements about this. 383 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,160 It's great. 384 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,960 You know, we really, this is a good thing. 385 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:53,400 But what's happening is that much of these monies coming down as grants are incentivizing 386 00:32:53,400 --> 00:33:00,600 work with indigenous communities and the incorporation of indigenous knowledge. 387 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:07,320 But we're talking about researchers who have no knowledge of working with indigenous people 388 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,160 and no knowledge of indigenous knowledge. 389 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:19,720 So they wanting to take advantage of those incentives to incorporate indigenous knowledge 390 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:28,640 and indigenous communities into these research projects, they're often done really badly. 391 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:35,600 And there are also groups that are attaching themselves to, you know, are trying to capitalize 392 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,560 on some of this money that aren't even native, but passing themselves off as native. 393 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,880 So it's opened up, we think of it as a new gold rush. 394 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:51,920 So that's opening up, you know, new cans of worms. 395 00:33:51,920 --> 00:34:02,480 And so we decided that we need to sort of take that, take initiative to be able to provide 396 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:11,720 some kind of interventions for folks who want to do these kinds of research projects and 397 00:34:11,720 --> 00:34:19,520 whatever else kind of projects, but do it in the right way with the right kind of guidance. 398 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:26,040 We have the expertise, we have the connections in Indian country, we know who's who, we know 399 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,440 who to work with, we know how to steer people in the right directions, we know how to help 400 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:36,680 them design research projects in appropriate ways that include native people from the beginning 401 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,560 and not as an afterthought, for example. 402 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:48,040 So there's a number of initiatives popping up all over the country in different university 403 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:55,080 environments that are dedicated to incorporating indigenous knowledge, but they're typically 404 00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:05,800 based in like environmental studies or other kinds of like STEM ways that are, you know, 405 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,320 science based. 406 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,880 And that's great, you know, that's all needed, but our work will be more focused more on 407 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:22,360 policy and helping to guide, you know, researchers and community, other kinds of, you know, stakeholders 408 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:29,160 that are doing work, nonprofits, there's all kinds of, all kinds of, you know, people 409 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,160 getting involved. 410 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:37,720 So, so we see, we see it as something like an institutional review board. 411 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:45,080 So yeah, so it where we'll be able to, to help just guide people in the right direction. 412 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:50,560 And would this be something that they like come up to you up, like with the, they come 413 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:56,440 up to the Isaac group themselves, or is this like, do y'all have to put in the work to 414 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,840 do this, to like go in and find the research and like review it? 415 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,440 Yeah, we're not going to, I don't see ourselves, I mean, we're still conceptualizing this thing. 416 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:13,760 I don't see ourselves doing research for them, but certainly guiding them in the right direction 417 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,240 where they need to go. 418 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:23,960 You know, we're working right now with, with surfrider, for example, with helping them 419 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,440 just doing simple indigenous engagement. 420 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,240 There's groups are coming out of the woodwork wanting to work in all kinds of ways with 421 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:33,560 native populations. 422 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:40,160 There's one of them, I'm helping them develop guidelines and protocols for how to engage 423 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,040 with native populations. 424 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,560 Surfrider's been around for since 1984. 425 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:54,200 And they're just now like starting to get in, to get sensitized and activated to working 426 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,720 with, with indigenous communities. 427 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,760 But it's a predominantly white organization. 428 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:06,640 They, they really don't, they don't know what they don't know, you know, and this is true 429 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,800 for many, especially conservation groups. 430 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:17,800 Conservation is notoriously white in its foundations. 431 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:24,400 And you know, with this new, this new push to diversity that we've been seeing in the 432 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,640 last few years, that's changing and that's great. 433 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:34,880 But what it means to work with diverse populations is not the same straight across the board. 434 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:41,560 To work with indigenous people is really a different, it's a different thing completely 435 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:48,480 than working with other, other kinds of like ethnic minority groups. 436 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,560 Native issues are very, very different. 437 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,280 And so, so there is a need for this very specialized kind of knowledge. 438 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,080 And that's what we'll provide. 439 00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,080 It's amazing. 440 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:04,600 It's definitely, definitely needed because we've seen historically, Eurocentric ideas 441 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:11,600 really pushed on the tribes and people of indigenous background where it's not sustainable. 442 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,760 Like what their ideas of helping are really unsustainable. 443 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,800 And so having this open communication, this collaboration can actually make something 444 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,520 sustainable, which is absolutely incredible. 445 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,320 And really look forward to what could come out of that. 446 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,320 That's really amazing. 447 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,320 Yeah. 448 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,320 Yeah. 449 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,320 Absolutely. 450 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:34,080 And I really think that there is, there's an openness now that I've never really seen 451 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,080 before. 452 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,640 I think there's urgency, right? 453 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:39,920 Greater urgency. 454 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,040 We're seeing like climate change is here. 455 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,440 It's now, it's not in the future. 456 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,920 It's happening to us right now. 457 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:52,000 And that's creating this sense of desperation, I would say. 458 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,160 Absolutely. 459 00:38:53,160 --> 00:39:00,280 Do you find, you mentioned that a lot of other like fake groups you said are coming out of 460 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,640 this too though, out of the build? 461 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:07,320 Do you find that like, I guess this bill is positive in a way where it really requires 462 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,400 different communities to connect within the communities and those that are in there, like 463 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:18,160 local tribes and different organizations working with local tribes in very specific community 464 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:24,040 needs like surf rider here in San Diego, working with San Diego tribes to solve San Diego 465 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:31,560 problems versus the basin and the Midwest or with working with their local tribes. 466 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:37,720 It sounds like this is beneficial for community based efforts rather than as a whole, I guess. 467 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:38,720 Yes. 468 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:39,720 I'd say. 469 00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:40,720 Yeah. 470 00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:41,720 Yeah. 471 00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:42,720 And that's, and that's right. 472 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:50,040 All of this work when it comes to environmental issues and climate change is really best done 473 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,240 at the local level. 474 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:53,240 Right? 475 00:39:53,240 --> 00:40:02,840 I mean, yes, it's a global national problem and region, I don't know, geographically regional, 476 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:11,080 but so much of the work that needs to be done has to be done in particular ecosystem regions. 477 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,080 Right? 478 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,080 Absolutely. 479 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,640 So, and be responsive to the populations in those areas. 480 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:27,000 So, you know, think globally, act locally is really what, how the approach that needs 481 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,000 to be taken. 482 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:33,160 And it's because of that kind of indigenous knowledge that has existed there for essentially 483 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,800 millennia, right? 484 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:40,360 It's just understanding what the lay of the land is like and understanding like the cycles, 485 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:41,360 right? 486 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:49,840 And having the CICSE on campus, like we could really, as a campus, come together and hear 487 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:56,600 all the different perspectives and work on bettering our community and things that we 488 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,640 and students interact with on a daily. 489 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:06,960 How have organizations here on campus interacted with the CICSE just out of curiosity? 490 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:13,880 Has there been much interaction or any relationship building anything like that? 491 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:23,480 I would say that, you know, there are, there have been successes and some not so much. 492 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,120 There's always room for improvement. 493 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:32,120 I think that we would really like to be, see more collaboration, you know, between the, 494 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:38,440 we call it the center, the center and our AIS, AIS department. 495 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,640 You know, we would like to see more collaboration. 496 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,760 And, you know, I think doing this podcast is one way to like get that word out. 497 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:52,600 We really, we do want to build bridges across difference. 498 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,920 We're just, we just keep putting it out there. 499 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:02,720 And, you know, we would like to, to partner with the climate, you know, the, I'm not 500 00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:07,320 sure the climate, the faculty working group, but I'm not sure if they've changed their 501 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:08,320 name. 502 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,720 I'm not up to speed with where they're at, but, you know, at some point we would definitely 503 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:23,120 like to work with them and, and collaborate because they are just the kind of group that 504 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,000 would, could benefit from what we'll be doing with our ISIC initiative. 505 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,040 So how do people come to you like, where can they find you? 506 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,040 How do they say hi? 507 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,040 I guess. 508 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:34,040 Yeah. 509 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:35,040 Well, we have to build a website. 510 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,400 We don't even have funding yet. 511 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:38,400 Yeah. 512 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:39,400 Yeah. 513 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:44,640 Hopefully, you know, we're working, we're literally speaking this thing into existence. 514 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,240 And so we're working with Sir Frider. 515 00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:52,800 We also, you know, there, there are other things kind of brewing as well. 516 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:59,200 And we have the, we have the attention of the chancellor's office, right at the, right 517 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,320 at the top of the CSU system. 518 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,480 They are totally in support of us. 519 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,960 And hopefully they're, you know, there's, they, I think that there's a, they want to 520 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,080 see this initiative be system-wide. 521 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:18,320 So we, you know, we are in a position of, you know, easily having more work than we 522 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,160 even know what to do with before long. 523 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:29,680 So as students of CSUSM, how can we help everyone on campus help promote the growth of this group 524 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,120 and promote what you guys can do? 525 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:40,720 Well, think about, think about in your own work, in your own research, whether it be, 526 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:45,560 you know, undergrad or graduate level, you know, come see us. 527 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:46,560 Just come talk to us. 528 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:54,840 If you are curious about, you need some advice, you need some, you know, guidance, you know, 529 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,280 remember that you have an incredible resource on this campus. 530 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:04,720 You got rock stars in this, in literally we are some of the, the faculty in our department 531 00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:07,400 are rock stars in our fields. 532 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,600 You know, we're, we want to help. 533 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:15,320 You talked a little bit about how you're a surfer and how you do, do a lot of work out 534 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:16,320 kind of by the coast. 535 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:22,840 So I was just curious if you could go more into that and do you get a sense that you're 536 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,680 actually making a difference? 537 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:30,400 Because I know at least for a lot of the listeners out here, I know at least I'm part of this, 538 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,520 but when it comes to climate change, like there's just so much anxiety and it seems like things 539 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:40,640 are just changing so fast that it almost feels like your own individual actions don't matter, 540 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:41,640 you know. 541 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,140 I, I think so. 542 00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:44,140 Yeah. 543 00:44:44,140 --> 00:44:51,160 I mean, I, I would never have, I mean, even 10 years ago, I couldn't have imagined where 544 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,120 my, where the work has taken me. 545 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,920 An example is the work that I've been doing with the World Surf League. 546 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,760 So I've been working with the World Surf League for the past three years. 547 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:06,400 The World Surf League is just a for-profit corporation, they are the purveyors of global 548 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:12,520 professional surfing and they run surf contests, you know, all over the world. 549 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:20,800 And they, in recent years have developed a sustainability initiative that they call one 550 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,000 ocean. 551 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:28,280 And, and so this one ocean initiative is, they're very, they're very upfront. 552 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,440 They're basically, they do surf contests, but they're also a production company. 553 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,700 So it's very visual. 554 00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:40,680 So they have a website and, you know, it's, you know, it has a large platform, millions 555 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:47,080 of people all over the world go to that website and watch their contests, you know, live streaming. 556 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:54,480 And so this, this one ocean initiative has done some really good work. 557 00:45:54,480 --> 00:46:01,280 They, they produce these videos, they have, you know, fortunately become sensitized to 558 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:11,240 indigenous issues when they go into countries like Australia or El Salvador or Indonesia, 559 00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:19,280 Tahiti, Hawaii, here in California, they have engaged with indigenous, they've, they have 560 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:24,440 grown in their understanding that when they go to those places, they are indigenous homelands. 561 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:32,280 And so I've been working with them here in California on that to, to build relationships 562 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:38,760 with local tribal communities, to pay the respects, to bring the indigenous community 563 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:39,760 in. 564 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:45,080 For example, they do the world championships at Trestles, right? 565 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,560 That's a Hasheman territory. 566 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:54,480 And so for the past three or four years, they have done, you know, this, all kinds of beautiful 567 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,960 programming with the tribal community. 568 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,400 And, and it's been, and they film it. 569 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,400 So there's an aspect of it that is kind of commercial, right? 570 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,080 It's, it's very visible. 571 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:13,520 But this is a tribe that is not a federally recognized tribe that has, you know, undergoes 572 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:21,640 erasure and invisibility all the time, but they, you know, when you get an organization 573 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:28,200 with that much visibility and power coming in to bring, to shine a light on that community, 574 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,920 that there's power in that. 575 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,680 And it has been a beautiful thing to see. 576 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:42,440 And it's because of me and one other person pushing our way in there and just saying, 577 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:47,240 you guys are coming here, you need to bring the indigenous community in, bring the native 578 00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:53,400 community in, at least, you know, have, give, pay the respects that you're on their land. 579 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,240 And they took it really seriously. 580 00:47:55,240 --> 00:48:03,400 And so now it's the point where every time they come and they do that, that world championship 581 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,400 there, that's what they're, they're seeing the faces of the indigenous community of 582 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,760 Orange County. 583 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:16,360 And you know, that's really gratifying. 584 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:23,520 And I think it teaches, you know, it teaches a certain kind of ethic to the non-native population, 585 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:24,520 right? 586 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,760 That, that number one native people are still here. 587 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,160 These are still their homelands. 588 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:35,680 And we need to be sensitive to that and to, to respect that. 589 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:42,200 This is, I mean, it's the culmination of decades and decades of the opposite of that happening, 590 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,120 of the erasure and the, the, the ignoring. 591 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,880 So in a way it's kind of rewriting historical narratives for, to acknowledge these people 592 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:57,400 and to try to undo the erasure that still happens today in some sense. 593 00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:58,400 Beautiful. 594 00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:59,400 Yep. 595 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:00,400 Yep. 596 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,160 And, you know, we've done some amazing work and I'm really proud of it. 597 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,920 I've been able to help guide them in that work. 598 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:13,480 So these are, these are, you know, what we're talking about is paradigm shift. 599 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,080 This is what we need. 600 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:20,760 You know, the response to climate change and to all the crises that we live with in this 601 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,760 world require paradigm shift. 602 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:30,080 And paradigm shift is transformation and we need transformation on all levels of society. 603 00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:35,480 We need them on, on the personal level within ourselves. 604 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:40,920 We need them on the intrapersonal level between our relationships and we need them on, we 605 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,720 need it on the institutional level. 606 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:47,760 So everywhere we can go and bring transformation. 607 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,920 That's really the work. 608 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,520 And that's what you need to keep your eyes on. 609 00:49:53,520 --> 00:50:00,000 Like is what you're going to do today in this room in this podcast going to change the world 610 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,000 tomorrow? 611 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,600 Probably not, but it contributes to that energy. 612 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:05,600 Right? 613 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:11,920 It's all energy and, and all of it counts, all of it matters. 614 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,760 And that's what we just got to, you know, we got to focus on what's in front of us while 615 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,920 we work for the bigger picture. 616 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:27,360 But that's I think the way to manage that, that hope, that sense of hope and not get, 617 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,920 you know, not get inundated with hopelessness. 618 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:38,720 Just keep doing the work that's in front of you and do the best that you can do. 619 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:44,320 That's all any of us can do while we work to change the system. 620 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,200 You know, environmental humanities is really important, right? 621 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:54,960 So bringing in the humanities into conversation with environmental sciences, critically important. 622 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,480 And you're going to talk about the environmental humanities. 623 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,640 We need to talk about, you know, how do the environmental humanities engage in settler 624 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,400 colonial analysis, right? 625 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:11,240 Because then we can talk about the history, you know, how did we get here and, you know, 626 00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:18,440 how the, the violation of indigenous rights and land theft and all of that, how it's all 627 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,600 tied together. 628 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,960 Because we need to, we need to turn it around. 629 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:29,320 There has to be a reckoning for this colonial system. 630 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,440 A paradigm shift. 631 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:32,440 Perfect. 632 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,800 Well, thank you again for being here, Professor Gilio Wittiker. 633 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,960 And thank you for talking with us today. 634 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:38,960 You're welcome. 635 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,720 And to our listeners, if you want to hear more from Climate to Action, a CSUSM student 636 00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:48,280 podcast, follow us on TikTok, Twitter and Instagram at Climate to Action. 637 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,160 For this week's Call to Action, check out the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty 638 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:53,160 Center. 639 00:51:53,160 --> 00:52:05,840 The first day is csusm.edu slash c-i-c-s-c or find the link on our socials.