WEBVTT 00:00:05.669 --> 00:00:08.210 Welcome to Design Downtime, the podcast where 00:00:08.210 --> 00:00:10.429 we celebrate the joys of living a balanced creative 00:00:10.429 --> 00:00:13.429 life. I'm your host, Guy Segal, a design director 00:00:13.429 --> 00:00:16.010 in Toronto, Canada, and I invite you to join 00:00:16.010 --> 00:00:18.350 me on this journey as we redefine what it means 00:00:18.350 --> 00:00:21.210 to be a successful design professional. Let's 00:00:21.210 --> 00:00:23.210 break free from the shackles of hustle culture 00:00:23.210 --> 00:00:25.629 and embrace the full spectrum of human experience, 00:00:25.890 --> 00:00:28.829 because life is too precious to be spent only 00:00:28.829 --> 00:00:32.070 in pursuit of productivity. Today, I'm delighted 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.320 to talk to Stephanie Tuerk. Stephanie is a designer 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:37.659 developer who currently works at a startup making 00:00:37.659 --> 00:00:41.039 verifiable AI for science. She previously did 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:43.820 this work in quantitative policy research context 00:00:43.820 --> 00:00:46.659 and loves serving as the translation layer between 00:00:46.659 --> 00:00:50.020 technical domain expertise and users. She entered 00:00:50.020 --> 00:00:52.359 the world of interface and product design through 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.039 data visualization, and prior to that, spent 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:57.759 time in the fields of architectural design and 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:01.000 architectural history. Stephanie, welcome to 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:03.060 the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. It's 00:01:03.060 --> 00:01:05.030 great to be here. It's great to have you. And 00:01:05.030 --> 00:01:07.709 today you want to talk about learning languages. 00:01:08.209 --> 00:01:12.569 I do. Usually I ask the origin story question. 00:01:12.890 --> 00:01:15.230 How did you start with it? But let's define something 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:17.250 first. When we're saying you want to talk about 00:01:17.250 --> 00:01:19.010 learning languages, what do you mean by that? 00:01:19.250 --> 00:01:21.750 Well, I proposed it because I think it's a little 00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:24.269 bit of an odd hobby, maybe. I think it's one 00:01:24.269 --> 00:01:30.060 that maybe most people... I have no research 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:34.060 about this, but I am going to guess that most 00:01:34.060 --> 00:01:37.579 people in the world learn languages out of some 00:01:37.579 --> 00:01:40.719 kind of necessity, like generally speaking in 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:42.620 the world, aside from their first language, right? 00:01:42.700 --> 00:01:46.079 Like they were born with. So people move to a 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:47.579 new place. They have to learn a new language. 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:49.459 They want like economic opportunity. They have 00:01:49.459 --> 00:01:52.439 to move. Part of that is learning a new language. 00:01:52.700 --> 00:01:55.159 Well, I had some necessity in my learning languages 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.439 too. I don't know if necessity is quite the right 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:02.540 word, but I've kind of like recently discovered 00:02:02.540 --> 00:02:05.739 that this is something that oddly brings me a 00:02:05.739 --> 00:02:10.419 lot of pleasure. And I think that most people 00:02:10.419 --> 00:02:12.800 think that learning language is kind of maybe 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:15.560 drudgery because it's like, you have to do work. 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:20.180 It's not like a easy thing to do. If you don't 00:02:20.180 --> 00:02:22.539 do the work, you will not learn the language. 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:25.780 I guess I find it rewarding. And I think that 00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:28.259 people maybe increasingly are like, why would 00:02:28.259 --> 00:02:29.979 you learn a language? There's just Google Translate. 00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:32.900 Nobody needs to learn a language anymore. So 00:02:32.900 --> 00:02:36.460 I think I wanted to come on and give my pitch 00:02:36.460 --> 00:02:39.300 in defense of learning languages. That was my 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:42.240 impetus for this, I think. You mentioned there 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.360 was a case of, quote unquote, necessity in learning 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.520 languages. But how did you end up with this hobby? 00:02:47.819 --> 00:02:49.800 I'm just now going to give you the origin story. 00:02:50.060 --> 00:02:54.000 So I took... french from i think i had french 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:57.139 in elementary school if not like kindergarten 00:02:57.139 --> 00:03:00.400 through the end of high school but like the elementary 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.520 school was obviously like i was very good at 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:04.680 saying what i had for breakfast and what the 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.460 weather was i also took spanish in high school 00:03:07.460 --> 00:03:11.659 because i was an extremely one of those types 00:03:11.659 --> 00:03:14.740 of people who instead of having a study hall 00:03:14.740 --> 00:03:17.479 i was like can i take more classes oh i'll take 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:21.389 spanish then i think I forget if I took a French 00:03:21.389 --> 00:03:23.830 conversation class, like maybe my first quarter 00:03:23.830 --> 00:03:27.289 of college or not. I can't remember if I actually, 00:03:27.330 --> 00:03:29.210 maybe I dropped it. I don't know. And then I 00:03:29.210 --> 00:03:32.650 kind of took a break from doing any language 00:03:32.650 --> 00:03:35.449 learning. And then I started a PhD program where 00:03:35.449 --> 00:03:39.189 there was a requirement for competency in two 00:03:39.189 --> 00:03:42.629 foreign languages, regardless of whether you 00:03:42.629 --> 00:03:44.889 needed them for your dissertation or not. So 00:03:44.889 --> 00:03:47.150 like if you were working on an American topic 00:03:47.150 --> 00:03:49.330 and everything was in English, you had to like 00:03:49.330 --> 00:03:51.310 prove some competency. But it was actually just 00:03:51.310 --> 00:03:54.229 like it's a pretty easy thing. It was kind of 00:03:54.229 --> 00:03:57.370 a translation test before we had translation 00:03:57.370 --> 00:03:59.949 on our phones. And obviously it was no phones. 00:04:00.090 --> 00:04:02.889 Yeah, you just translated a passage and you could 00:04:02.889 --> 00:04:05.009 actually even select the passage ahead of time 00:04:05.009 --> 00:04:06.810 and had to be approved. So it was like basically 00:04:06.810 --> 00:04:08.909 you were guaranteed to pass, but you had to take 00:04:08.909 --> 00:04:11.830 a little bit of. You had to know a little bit 00:04:11.830 --> 00:04:14.789 of the language. So I like had my French from 00:04:14.789 --> 00:04:17.230 high school and obviously I took like two AP 00:04:17.230 --> 00:04:19.730 classes, French lit, French language in high 00:04:19.730 --> 00:04:21.990 school because I was like maxed out what I could 00:04:21.990 --> 00:04:24.670 do. So I passed French really easily, but I needed 00:04:24.670 --> 00:04:28.170 another language. So I was like, well, German 00:04:28.170 --> 00:04:31.149 is a language of art historians. My PhD was in 00:04:31.149 --> 00:04:34.699 a architecture and art history department. Yeah, 00:04:34.740 --> 00:04:37.439 I signed up for this like intensive German course 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:40.959 in this like January term where you were supposed 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.879 to cram a semester of German into three weeks 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:46.680 or something. And it was like six hours a day. 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:48.579 I'm probably lying. It's probably four hours 00:04:48.579 --> 00:04:53.379 a day. But it was a long time. and it's so funny 00:04:53.379 --> 00:04:55.180 for me to remember all these details they're 00:04:55.180 --> 00:04:56.740 like flooding back i haven't really thought about 00:04:56.740 --> 00:04:59.480 them in years but passed the translation test 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:03.439 that spring so i took german one in january and 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:05.600 then i took german two in the spring semester 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:09.160 and i like did the translation test but i was 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:15.019 kind of like this is like a thing that it was 00:05:15.019 --> 00:05:18.279 like a really good antidote to everything else 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:23.920 i was doing at the time which was like kind of 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:27.399 let's see actually what year was that I guess 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:29.720 it's maybe doing coursework but you know it's 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:33.240 like reading like 700 pages a week of history 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:35.639 and theory and blah blah blah going to seminar 00:05:35.639 --> 00:05:38.180 and like trying to make sure that you said smart 00:05:38.180 --> 00:05:40.779 things and just like very kind of high level 00:05:40.779 --> 00:05:43.279 thinking and I was like oh my god I love going 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.579 to this German course and like one being able 00:05:46.579 --> 00:05:49.740 to fail and like that being totally normal and 00:05:49.740 --> 00:05:53.579 like celebrated like the teacher would be like 00:05:53.579 --> 00:05:58.000 oh great try you know I just like kind of loved 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.860 being a beginner at it while I was doing this 00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:04.759 other thing that was like quite not really a 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:06.620 beginner although everyone in academia would 00:06:06.620 --> 00:06:09.579 say a second year PhD student is absolutely a 00:06:09.579 --> 00:06:12.899 beginner they know nothing but very different 00:06:12.899 --> 00:06:16.339 than learning like you know i drove the car to 00:06:16.339 --> 00:06:20.540 work so i kind of like stuck with the german 00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:23.420 kind of like trying to a little bit like hide 00:06:23.420 --> 00:06:28.500 it from my advisors almost maybe and there was 00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:30.779 also this like fellowship opportunity where if 00:06:30.779 --> 00:06:32.779 you took enough german you could like get money 00:06:32.779 --> 00:06:35.920 to go and take a course in germany for the summer 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.060 if your like research topic was related it's 00:06:38.060 --> 00:06:41.139 just like a promoting academic exchange kind 00:06:41.139 --> 00:06:43.949 of thing program My PhD didn't have summer funding, 00:06:44.170 --> 00:06:45.930 so I was always looking for how to get money 00:06:45.930 --> 00:06:48.810 in the summer. So I was like, ah, this will be 00:06:48.810 --> 00:06:50.810 my thing. And then I will be in Germany. I can 00:06:50.810 --> 00:06:53.949 go to France to do the archives. It's close. 00:06:54.230 --> 00:06:56.529 I can just take some cheap flight. So I kind 00:06:56.529 --> 00:06:59.329 of kept going with the German in order to qualify 00:06:59.329 --> 00:07:03.129 for this program. Then I did this totally amazing, 00:07:03.509 --> 00:07:05.930 I forget if it's like six weeks for eight hours 00:07:05.930 --> 00:07:09.029 a day or eight weeks for six hours a day, something 00:07:09.029 --> 00:07:13.240 like that, intensive German course. in berlin 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:15.579 at the like i had taken like two and a half years 00:07:15.579 --> 00:07:19.360 of college level german at this point i was great 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:22.860 when i left that program but also just like the 00:07:22.860 --> 00:07:25.660 experiences i had in that program were so amazing 00:07:25.660 --> 00:07:28.800 maybe i can talk about them a little bit later 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.360 and i think it was just like such a fond memory 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.259 for me and i learned so much about the world 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:37.379 and other people Oh, I also realized like when 00:07:37.379 --> 00:07:39.459 I was trying to think in German, like when I 00:07:39.459 --> 00:07:41.399 was kind of thinking in German, like I can't 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.060 think fast enough to have anxiety. Like anyway, 00:07:44.180 --> 00:07:47.560 that was kind of the beginning. And then many 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:51.600 years later, I, well, some years later, I found 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:53.459 myself in a Russian speaking part of the world 00:07:53.459 --> 00:07:56.579 and decided that I would give that a try thinking 00:07:56.579 --> 00:07:59.160 like, oh, I know German. I know the cases, like 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:02.420 this will be maybe not so bad. And I was so wrong, 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:05.009 but that's where I am now. learning Russian very 00:08:05.009 --> 00:08:07.689 slowly, very poorly. Something very interesting 00:08:07.689 --> 00:08:09.949 you said is that when you learn a new language, you're 00:08:10.170 --> 00:08:13.370 starting from basics, that offers you an opportunity 00:08:13.370 --> 00:08:17.550 to slow your own thinking. And it's okay for 00:08:17.550 --> 00:08:20.470 it to be at a lower pace of thinking. Is that 00:08:20.470 --> 00:08:23.110 something that you found yourself consciously 00:08:23.110 --> 00:08:26.069 gravitating to? I would say I did not say that 00:08:26.069 --> 00:08:29.949 I thought slow. Because I think I'm not that 00:08:29.949 --> 00:08:32.049 that is not something that like comes very naturally 00:08:32.049 --> 00:08:34.789 to me. When it was like, when i was trying to 00:08:34.789 --> 00:08:38.409 think in german it just i don't know if it was 00:08:38.409 --> 00:08:41.690 like a conscious slowing i just i had to focus 00:08:41.690 --> 00:08:45.169 really hard on speaking german yeah so like all 00:08:45.169 --> 00:08:48.870 the other things there was just like i wasn't 00:08:48.870 --> 00:08:51.509 spending time thinking about like oh my dissertation 00:08:51.509 --> 00:08:55.509 or like anything else like that i was just you 00:08:55.509 --> 00:08:59.570 know trying to communicate and like maybe my 00:08:59.570 --> 00:09:01.570 german class was so interesting so like maybe 00:09:01.570 --> 00:09:05.679 like arguing with people in my German class about 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.600 like funny topics. How easy is it for you to 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.460 learn a new language from grammar alone? It probably 00:09:13.460 --> 00:09:15.620 depends on the language. Also, did I say that 00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:18.320 I was learning from grammar alone? No, but you 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:21.919 live in the US, so not too many opportunities 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:24.600 to practice your French or your German outside 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:26.879 of the class. So I'm assuming at least the basics 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:31.110 are built on foundations of grammar. Oh, well, 00:09:31.250 --> 00:09:33.590 I guess, are you contrasting to like vocabulary, 00:09:33.730 --> 00:09:35.950 like grammar, a grammar first approach versus 00:09:35.950 --> 00:09:38.649 like a vocabulary first approach? Yep. Okay. 00:09:38.750 --> 00:09:41.389 Because I think not everybody who lives in the 00:09:41.389 --> 00:09:43.309 US who learns a language, who doesn't have the 00:09:43.309 --> 00:09:46.509 opportunity to practice is a grammar first person. 00:09:46.929 --> 00:09:50.649 Having sat in my like local community learning 00:09:50.649 --> 00:09:53.769 Russian class, I am an extreme grammar learner. 00:09:54.970 --> 00:09:58.340 Like even my Russian teacher was like, I can 00:09:58.340 --> 00:10:01.500 see your head spinning, looking for the right 00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:05.500 endings for like, it's like very methodical. 00:10:06.460 --> 00:10:09.860 It is not easy to learn that way. I think, I 00:10:09.860 --> 00:10:12.379 mean, I think either way probably has its disadvantages, 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:15.960 but it's the way that feels like most comfortable 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:19.259 to me. But I know that that's a crutch, if that 00:10:19.259 --> 00:10:21.600 makes sense, because I'm like, I think I'd like 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:24.580 it because. and like oh i understand this and 00:10:24.580 --> 00:10:26.120 there's this like system and i can understand 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:29.080 the system of language and like that makes me 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:33.399 feel like i know something like i may not be 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:36.799 able to express myself but i at least know when 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.840 to use dative versus accusative but i think the 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:41.539 thing that's kind of killing me with russian 00:10:41.539 --> 00:10:44.580 is the vocabulary is it's like the first language 00:10:44.580 --> 00:10:47.440 where the vocabulary is pretty different from 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:53.220 english and i don't practice it enough and It's 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:57.120 hard. What does speaking or learning a new language 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.600 tell you about the culture that's using that 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:02.620 language? Not in terms of you're able to, you 00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:04.879 know, read books or watch movies, but like the 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:07.100 structure of the language itself and the words 00:11:07.100 --> 00:11:09.460 they're used. What is that telling you? I would 00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:12.600 say probably nothing because I'm not an expert, 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:16.240 but I will say a few things, mostly amusing anecdotes 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:18.580 and not actual answers. When I started Russian. 00:11:19.309 --> 00:11:22.909 we started with these words and it was like i 00:11:22.909 --> 00:11:25.269 go to the library and i was like the library 00:11:25.269 --> 00:11:28.409 is like biblioteca and and it was like i go 00:11:28.409 --> 00:11:30.730 to the store and it's like cool store magazin 00:11:30.730 --> 00:11:33.129 which is awesome both of these are like french 00:11:33.129 --> 00:11:35.830 words and like kind of for some reason i don't 00:11:35.830 --> 00:11:38.590 know why like the french words were like in the 00:11:38.590 --> 00:11:42.389 first month of the russian class and i was like 00:11:43.070 --> 00:11:46.169 oh man, I've got this language between like German 00:11:46.169 --> 00:11:49.090 cases and the French vocabulary. And so anyway, 00:11:49.190 --> 00:11:51.309 the French vocabulary is an interesting, super 00:11:51.309 --> 00:11:53.450 interesting thing because it's like dating back 00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:55.649 to Catherine the Great and like that era when 00:11:55.649 --> 00:11:58.789 like the Russian court was actually, the official 00:11:58.789 --> 00:12:00.929 language was French. And then if you look at 00:12:00.929 --> 00:12:04.490 like, which words are... french it's a lot of 00:12:04.490 --> 00:12:06.149 these kind of things that were invented in the 00:12:06.149 --> 00:12:08.929 19th century in france like the library or the 00:12:08.929 --> 00:12:12.509 store like these kind of words of that are somewhat 00:12:12.509 --> 00:12:14.450 associated with like modernity and modern things 00:12:14.450 --> 00:12:18.250 so i was like oh that's like so i love that i 00:12:18.250 --> 00:12:20.250 love that for russian or for me as a russian 00:12:20.250 --> 00:12:22.129 language learner to kind of be able to read that 00:12:22.129 --> 00:12:24.710 history is really interesting in terms of like 00:12:24.710 --> 00:12:29.470 oh man i don't think i learn so much about the 00:12:29.470 --> 00:12:32.549 culture through the language itself because like 00:12:32.549 --> 00:12:34.830 really i would have to be like such an expert 00:12:34.830 --> 00:12:37.570 to be able to like reverse engineer that way 00:12:37.570 --> 00:12:42.190 but i do think making my case for learning a 00:12:42.190 --> 00:12:44.830 language now when you could just use google translate 00:12:44.830 --> 00:12:47.889 now my russian language is learning is really 00:12:47.889 --> 00:12:51.210 kind of just like a half russian language and 00:12:51.210 --> 00:12:54.830 half like that area of the world like self-directed 00:12:54.830 --> 00:12:57.250 master's degree there's no way that i would have 00:12:57.250 --> 00:13:00.100 the interest like they really go hand in hand 00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:02.600 for me like the kind of exploring the culture 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:07.120 while i'm exploring the language sure i could 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:09.120 watch the movies with subtitles and i would watch 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.000 the movies with subtitles if i didn't know any 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.179 of the words but it's just i don't know i really 00:13:15.179 --> 00:13:18.500 like that aspect of language learning where it's 00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:20.899 not really just about the language it's more 00:13:20.899 --> 00:13:23.980 like a gateway to the culture and it's a little 00:13:23.980 --> 00:13:26.500 hard to explain why that gateway would be harder 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:29.700 if you weren't learning the language on paper 00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:32.840 it shouldn't be but for me at least i think it 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:35.620 would be like it would be harder for me to access 00:13:35.620 --> 00:13:38.779 like do like a really deep dive maybe just because 00:13:38.779 --> 00:13:42.519 I'm like motivated to read reading Cyrillic if 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:44.200 anyone's listening if you want to learn like 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:47.120 a fun party trick you should learn the Cyrillic 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.019 alphabet because it's not that hard and then 00:13:50.019 --> 00:13:52.139 you can like sound things out and you're like 00:13:52.139 --> 00:13:55.120 wow I can read half of these words because they're 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.860 English cognates and you feel like a superhero 00:13:57.860 --> 00:14:01.460 I kind of enjoy just like getting what I can 00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:04.940 and then I you know I like Most of my YouTube 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:08.679 consumption is videos about different regions 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:12.419 of Russia and what's unique about those regions 00:14:12.419 --> 00:14:15.620 in Russian, which I sometimes watch with subtitles 00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:18.860 and sometimes try not to and get a little bit 00:14:18.860 --> 00:14:22.700 of it. So anyway, I think it's an amazing gateway 00:14:22.700 --> 00:14:26.940 to the culture and actually a funny... I'm allowed 00:14:26.940 --> 00:14:29.539 to talk about work for a second? I'll allow it. 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:32.330 Yes, okay. A funny thing that I did this week 00:14:32.330 --> 00:14:36.110 was that I did like an internationalization localization 00:14:36.110 --> 00:14:40.929 effort at work and used an agent to translate 00:14:40.929 --> 00:14:45.029 the entire website to Japanese. I have no idea 00:14:45.029 --> 00:14:48.210 what it says. It's bizarre, actually. But it 00:14:48.210 --> 00:14:50.549 was like, you know, in three hours or two hours 00:14:50.549 --> 00:14:55.059 in a morning, I got it all, basically. And that's 00:14:55.059 --> 00:14:58.419 so unsatisfying. It's just different. Sure, we 00:14:58.419 --> 00:15:00.600 can translate things, but it's so different than 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:03.440 actually engaging. And is that the answer to 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:06.139 people who ask you, why are you learning a language 00:15:06.139 --> 00:15:08.879 when you have Google Translate? Yeah, basically. 00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:12.139 Well, I think it's like, I love being a beginner 00:15:12.139 --> 00:15:15.179 in language. I love the fumbling. I love that 00:15:15.179 --> 00:15:19.799 it feels hard. I love exploring. Oh, another 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:23.440 sensation that I really love is... when I have 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:27.799 zero control of my mind and someone talks to 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:29.720 me at the grocery store in Spanish and I try 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:32.179 to respond in Spanish and it's like half in bad 00:15:32.179 --> 00:15:35.759 Russian and I'm like that's just how the words 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.580 come out and I actually like love that sensation 00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:43.919 because like we spend so much of our time trying 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.039 to like control our minds and and we think that 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:49.100 we can right and this realm of language learning 00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:52.169 is just like a different part of your brain there's 00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:54.889 nothing you can do but do the work nobody is 00:15:54.889 --> 00:15:57.330 good at a language when they start nobody's good 00:15:57.330 --> 00:15:59.509 at a language if they don't do the work so it's 00:15:59.509 --> 00:16:01.950 really not i don't know i think it's just like 00:16:01.950 --> 00:16:03.929 something that's a very different relationship 00:16:03.929 --> 00:16:07.889 to your brain into thinking than one is indoctrinated 00:16:07.889 --> 00:16:10.909 with when they spend a lot of time in say higher 00:16:10.909 --> 00:16:14.629 education uh which i kind of did so yeah i think 00:16:14.629 --> 00:16:17.570 that is like i love that part the kind of like 00:16:17.570 --> 00:16:22.070 i can't control this i feel dumb and you just 00:16:22.070 --> 00:16:24.789 have to laugh and yeah. Do you keep maintaining 00:16:24.789 --> 00:16:28.230 your proficiency in the languages you know? I 00:16:28.230 --> 00:16:31.409 listen to German podcasts or like a short news 00:16:31.409 --> 00:16:34.029 thing in the morning pretty much daily. I do 00:16:34.029 --> 00:16:36.490 Russian daily because I'm trying to learn it. 00:16:36.789 --> 00:16:40.970 French is like so in there. I think reading wise 00:16:40.970 --> 00:16:43.389 I'm quite good because I that's what I did for 00:16:43.389 --> 00:16:45.629 my dissertation was reading. I don't really work 00:16:45.629 --> 00:16:47.629 on French and I don't really like speaking French 00:16:47.629 --> 00:16:50.860 because I feel dumb because it's also probably 00:16:50.860 --> 00:16:52.700 the language that I'm best at. So you know how 00:16:52.700 --> 00:16:55.700 bad you are. And I also didn't have like good 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:57.440 instruction because I just took it in high school. 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.460 The Spanish from high school kind of like, you 00:17:00.460 --> 00:17:02.360 know, I live in the US. So you hear a lot of 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:04.619 Spanish. And now I work with a lot of people 00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:08.299 in Spain. So I like to make sure they're saying 00:17:08.299 --> 00:17:10.400 nice things about me. And so I can try to listen. 00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:12.880 I think it's really hard to learn multiple languages 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.000 at once. But I think you can maintain maybe I 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.240 don't know. What do you think as someone who 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:20.279 has a few languages? I have basic Spanish and 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.359 basic German, and I don't know if I go to countries 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:25.380 that speak those languages. I'm going to, you 00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:26.799 know, after a while, I'm going to pick it back 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.200 up, but I'm not really using them on a daily 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.940 basis. Your first language is English, and many 00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:35.920 people who are studying English realize how, 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.859 I would say, hectic and chaotic the rules for 00:17:39.859 --> 00:17:44.259 English are. It's mostly exceptions. Does learning 00:17:44.259 --> 00:17:47.430 other languages give you a... an appreciation 00:17:47.430 --> 00:17:51.750 for how hard it is to learn English? Literally 00:17:51.750 --> 00:17:56.569 not until like probably a month ago. I don't 00:17:56.569 --> 00:17:58.049 know. I grew up doing a lot of English grammar 00:17:58.049 --> 00:18:01.130 in elementary school. I love grammar, unsurprisingly. 00:18:01.529 --> 00:18:04.569 And I had never thought about the exception. 00:18:05.150 --> 00:18:06.950 That's one of the reasons I feel like German 00:18:06.950 --> 00:18:08.890 is a good language is it doesn't seem to have 00:18:08.890 --> 00:18:12.349 that many exceptions. So I actually recently 00:18:12.349 --> 00:18:17.069 started speaking English with a Ukrainian woman 00:18:17.069 --> 00:18:20.190 who lives in Lithuania now, but she's like displaced 00:18:20.190 --> 00:18:23.910 now rebuilding her life in Lithuania. And there's 00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:25.789 like this program where volunteers can speak. 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.440 uh english with people looking to improve their 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:30.019 english there and it's kind of like not formal 00:18:30.019 --> 00:18:32.920 teaching it's you kind of like try to understand 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:36.579 their needs and meet them where they are so i 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:38.500 was when we were starting i was like do you want 00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:41.339 to be corrected like if i hear something blah 00:18:41.339 --> 00:18:43.619 blah and i was like oh i can do this thing that 00:18:43.619 --> 00:18:45.480 my russian teacher did which was like send out 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.039 these short videos to watch about like the language 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:50.039 they're actually it's a great time to learn a 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:51.740 language because there's so much good content 00:18:51.740 --> 00:18:54.900 on youtube she made this statement that i it's 00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:59.069 like Almost all Europeans do this, which is have 00:18:59.069 --> 00:19:02.150 to do like a fake French accent to actually figure 00:19:02.150 --> 00:19:05.269 out what the saying is. But it's like, I explain 00:19:05.269 --> 00:19:09.869 it you or like, like not explain to, I explain 00:19:09.869 --> 00:19:13.430 you. That is what people say. Almost every European 00:19:13.430 --> 00:19:17.490 says, I explain you the homework. I explain you 00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:21.250 how this works, whatever. It's like, aha, I will 00:19:21.250 --> 00:19:28.299 point this out. and try to explain you or to 00:19:28.299 --> 00:19:30.960 you, depending on how you want to say it, why 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:32.839 it works this way. So I like went on YouTube 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.920 and tried to find a video about this like particular 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.680 topic. I was like, I now know why every single 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.700 person makes this mistake is because it's like 00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:47.990 verb dependent where explain and suggest take 00:19:47.990 --> 00:19:50.210 the like prepositional phrase, like I explained 00:19:50.210 --> 00:19:52.730 to you, but then there are like other verbs that 00:19:52.730 --> 00:19:55.410 are like basically the same verb where you actually 00:19:55.410 --> 00:19:58.170 don't say to you, you say you. And I was like, 00:19:58.250 --> 00:20:00.849 okay, nevermind. Like this is not the help that 00:20:00.849 --> 00:20:02.990 this person needs right now. I mean, I think 00:20:02.990 --> 00:20:05.690 that's a nice thing about another nice thing 00:20:05.690 --> 00:20:08.549 about this experience also is it's making me 00:20:08.549 --> 00:20:11.890 realize actually how intelligible people are. 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:14.579 even when you feel like you're not a good speaker. 00:20:14.859 --> 00:20:16.460 But like working with this person, I'm like, 00:20:16.500 --> 00:20:18.700 your English is great. And she's like, I'm so 00:20:18.700 --> 00:20:21.299 afraid to speak. And I'm like, no, like everybody 00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:23.460 can understand you and you don't have to worry 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:25.920 about the exact right conjugation or whatever 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.079 you're worried about. I can't take this advice 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:31.779 myself, but it's been nice to see it from the 00:20:31.779 --> 00:20:34.759 other side. You mentioned YouTube. Have you had 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:37.059 any experience with the first app that people 00:20:37.059 --> 00:20:39.220 reach out for when they want to learn a language? 00:20:39.619 --> 00:20:42.240 Duolingo. Hot topic in the language learning 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:46.720 community. I am on day 696, which by the way, 00:20:46.819 --> 00:20:50.480 these streaks are totally baloney because you 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:52.859 can basically skip about a third of the days 00:20:52.859 --> 00:20:55.039 and still maintain your streak because they have 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.900 all these mechanisms. My Russian teacher used 00:20:57.900 --> 00:21:01.400 to really poo-poo Duolingo and she was like, 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:06.019 oh, it's terrible. I am less of an absolutist 00:21:06.019 --> 00:21:08.859 about Duolingo. It's better than nothing. It's 00:21:08.859 --> 00:21:11.519 a lot better than nothing. I know words for like 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.420 owl and deer and hedgehog, really common vocabulary 00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:17.640 words that I'll definitely use all the time. 00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:20.640 I can say like, you know, my architect is not 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.119 an elephant. I'm kind of kidding. These are things 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.160 that Duolingo does that it gets criticized for 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:27.539 is like these absurd sentences. But I think it's 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:29.500 better than nothing. And particularly, I think 00:21:29.500 --> 00:21:32.099 it would be like... you would just kind of get 00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:34.839 stuck if you were, say, learning something like 00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:36.859 Russian and you tried to keep going with Duolingo 00:21:36.859 --> 00:21:40.119 because you'd be like, I don't get it. Why? I 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.140 thought the word ended with O and now it ends 00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:44.759 with A because like Russian, you change the endings 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.220 for all of the words all the time based on the 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:49.880 context. So if you aren't also doing your own 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:53.410 like actual. real study of the language i think 00:21:53.410 --> 00:21:55.930 it's hard to get anywhere with it and i think 00:21:55.930 --> 00:21:58.630 the criticism of it is like oh people think they're 00:21:58.630 --> 00:22:00.630 learning a language but they're just doing duolingo 00:22:00.630 --> 00:22:04.670 i'm not a fan of like being too critical of it. 00:22:04.730 --> 00:22:06.049 I mean, I'm sure there are like terrible business 00:22:06.049 --> 00:22:10.349 practices and the whole switching to AI stuff 00:22:10.349 --> 00:22:13.329 that they did as a company. And like, if they're 00:22:13.329 --> 00:22:16.369 listening, like, please just develop more content 00:22:16.369 --> 00:22:18.789 rather than putting in cool animations and vibrations. 00:22:19.009 --> 00:22:22.109 Like, I don't care about that. That's kind of 00:22:22.109 --> 00:22:24.529 their product direction is like jazzing it up 00:22:24.529 --> 00:22:27.769 rather than actually like doing good content 00:22:27.769 --> 00:22:30.269 development is my take on it. But it's better 00:22:30.269 --> 00:22:32.329 than nothing for sure. There are other apps. 00:22:32.829 --> 00:22:35.730 There's an app called Mango. Yeah, I would like 00:22:35.730 --> 00:22:39.049 recommend that if people are listening. If your 00:22:39.049 --> 00:22:42.049 library gives you a free subscription, it's good. 00:22:42.150 --> 00:22:44.910 It gives you a lot of cultural context and stuff, 00:22:44.970 --> 00:22:48.769 but nothing beats the like 40 second Duolingo 00:22:48.769 --> 00:22:52.269 lesson. So you've conquered French, you've conquered 00:22:52.269 --> 00:22:55.309 Spanish and German, and you're in the midst of 00:22:55.309 --> 00:22:58.230 conquering Russian. Does that give you, like 00:22:58.230 --> 00:23:01.369 Russian is... far enough from english that you 00:23:01.369 --> 00:23:03.609 really have to make an effort does that give 00:23:03.609 --> 00:23:06.490 you the courage to try other languages that are 00:23:06.490 --> 00:23:09.869 maybe even further away from english i'm done 00:23:09.869 --> 00:23:14.609 i'm done this is the last one i think like the 00:23:14.609 --> 00:23:16.869 russian thing will be will take forever for me 00:23:16.869 --> 00:23:19.410 like i had to really focus on german i took like 00:23:19.410 --> 00:23:23.410 college level german and then this amazing course 00:23:23.410 --> 00:23:28.700 in berlin i'm just gonna say i spent eight weeks 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:31.500 or six weeks, whichever one it was, with a North 00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:35.579 Korean translator in this class. It's an amazing 00:23:35.579 --> 00:23:37.720 opportunity. Like nobody's ever met someone from 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:39.660 North Korea because they're not really allowed 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:43.519 to leave. So the class just like, like that's 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:45.160 the kind of experience you have in a language 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.799 class. It's a bunch of random people from all 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.359 over the world or like with all different reasons. 00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:52.859 obviously maybe people are local but like all 00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:54.640 different reasons for taking it it's such a like 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.640 interesting cross-section of people everybody's 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.640 struggling i think like language classes could 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.400 be like a good new like third space type thing 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.700 like people talk about third spaces and the disappearance 00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:07.880 of it like go learn a language at your local 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:10.700 community college or whatever yeah i think i'm 00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:16.759 done Russian is so hard. And I just can't, I 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:19.720 can't devote that much time to it. And it's also 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:22.960 a little like, if you're going to randomly choose 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.039 a language to learn, I would recommend one where 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.420 cultural exports aren't necessarily sanctioned 00:24:29.420 --> 00:24:35.400 at the moment, because it's like harder to access 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:39.970 Russian stuff and also obviously there's like 00:24:39.970 --> 00:24:42.329 a lot of political weirdness with like learning 00:24:42.329 --> 00:24:45.190 Russian at the moment people are like oh do you 00:24:45.190 --> 00:24:51.349 like Putin and I'm like oh boy like no like um 00:24:51.349 --> 00:24:53.769 and just because I want to watch like some kind 00:24:53.769 --> 00:24:56.170 of Russian content doesn't mean that I'm supporting 00:24:56.170 --> 00:24:59.349 whatever's going on pick a language that has 00:24:59.349 --> 00:25:03.289 a lot of content and despite something like Chinese 00:25:03.289 --> 00:25:05.670 Mandarin whatever having a lot of content I will 00:25:05.670 --> 00:25:08.460 be closing the door on new languages after this 00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:12.180 point for a while, at least. And with that, Stephanie, 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:14.700 where can people find you? I think on social 00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:19.480 media, I'm most active on Bluesky and my handle 00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:23.359 is stephanietuerk.net. And coincidentally, that's 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.559 also the URL for my personal site, which has 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.480 more contact info on it if you really want it. 00:25:29.660 --> 00:25:32.220 Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks 00:25:32.220 --> 00:25:36.670 for having me. It was fun. This is all for this 00:25:36.670 --> 00:25:38.849 episode of Design Downtime. Thank you for joining 00:25:38.849 --> 00:25:41.329 me and until next time, I hope you enjoy your 00:25:41.329 --> 00:25:41.670 downtime.