Guy Segal [00.00.05]
Welcome to "Design Downtime" – the podcast where we celebrate the joys of living a balanced creative life. I'm your host, Guy Segal, a design director in Toronto, Canada, and I invite you to join me on this journey as we redefine what it means to be a successful design professional. Let's break free from the shackles of hustle culture and embrace the full spectrum of human experience – because life is too precious to be spent only in pursuit of productivity. Today I'm excited to talk to Vitaly Friedman. Vitaly loves beautiful content and does not give up easily. Born in Minsk, Belarus, he studied computer science and mathematics in Germany. While writing algebra proofs and preparing for software engineering at nights in the kitchen, at the same time he discovered passion for typography, interface design and writing. After working as a freelance designer and developer for 6 years, he co-founded Smashing Magazine back in 2006, a leading online magazine for designers and developers. His curiosity drove him from interface design to front-end to performance optimization to accessibility and back to user experience over all the years. Vitaly is the author, co-author and editor of Smashing Books, and a curator of Smashing Conferences. He is the UX lead with the European Parliament and Smashing Magazine  and front-end/UX consultant in Europe and abroad, working with large and small companies and organizations like Haufe-Lexware, Axel-Springer and others. He also runs Measure UX and Smart Interface Design Patterns, friendly video courses on UX and design patterns, along with a live UX training for passionate UX and product designers. Vitaly, welcome to the show.

Vitaly Friedman [00.01.46]
Oh, wow. This has been a pleasure to be here. I mean, it's so incredible to just be a part of this wonderful thing that you have kind of going on here. We need a bit of downtime. I think, at this point. 

Guy Segal [00.01.58]
Absolutely. I think every day we feel more and more that we need that. And today you wanted to talk to us about techno music.

Vitaly Friedman [00.02.06]
Oh, yes. Yes. Never, never, ever asked me. Never ever asked me. So that's about time. Yes. I think for the last I would say like 20 to 25 years, I've been going to all kind of reincarnations and developments and explorations and discoveries, uh, in terms of techno music. So I think that there is so much to discover. I don't even know where to start. But this has been very defining. I would say in many ways, the way of how I'm working, because how I'm exploring, and it's also how connected. I mean, as I was preparing for this, I was thinking, where did it come from? And I'm sure that Guy will eventually just come up with something like that. A question like that, I, I just couldn't point to that. And I think I have a little bit of a story that guides me to where I am and where I ended up. And throughout it, I think the techno music, in one way or the other, in one incarnation or another, has been a very pivotal, very major part of it. And like for many people, music is something that. Brings them forward, that fuels them, that brings them energy, that gives them. I know a rhythm in life, I think not just in, you know, in flow, but rewritten in life. And this has been my story for sure.

Guy Segal [00.03.11]
As you mentioned, I usually like to start with the origin story, right? Like where did you get to that? You said that it's been 20, 25 years of you being in techno. 

Vitaly Friedman [00.03.22] 
That's right. 

Guy Segal [00.03.23]
Do you remember how that happened? 

Vitaly Friedman [00.03.26]
Yeah. I think for me the most significant part was the music on its own. I would say this is like all started when I was listening to tapes. I think my father has always played Queen’s. Right. The Queen. Right. And it's always been a story. I mean, every single weekend or so I would listen to Queen songs and all of that, and it felt like I like the music. I liked what it's maybe not quite what I was looking for, and I was maybe just tired of it. And I started exploring. And eventually, of course, there was all the pop music around, and I think there were two defined kind of really the, I would say defining moments for me. One of them was, I think when, you know, I was born in 1985. So I would say maybe around the age of 7 or 8, I somehow got into a tape like it was literally a tape or kind of really bad quality recording or something of Prodigy. And at the time, Prodigy felt for me like, wow, this is so weird. This is just so it's it's almost the opposite of what my father actually told me to like, in a way. Right? And I just couldn't stop listening to it. It was so weird and so confusing. And I vividly remember that I, you know, it was, I think, Space invader at the time when I was listening to it. And that really kept following me. Year after year after year. I kept coming back. I kept coming back and. I think this also was the big time scooter and all of that, but I didn't like scooter. Sorry for everybody who is like a big fan of scooters over here. Scooter. I really didn't like it. I felt like it's a bit fake. It's a little bit. Mhm. I want the melody and all of that. And I think that this really was sort of the beginning. Right. This was the, the one side. And I also remember you know sometimes this is just little moments in your life, in your childhood that you just remember somehow, you know, I was looking for a present and I was really annoying to my parents. And I said, I don't want the book, I want the cassette. And I go, oh my God, this cassette. Okay, so what do you want? And so of course went on to like a market, but had all this kind of cassettes and I would just listen to all kind of things. Things I hated, things I loved, things I found extremely annoying and very confusing. And it all was in English, in language I didn't understand anyway. So I was like, I don't know how. I mean, it's 13, 15 years old, so I had no idea. I didn't speak proper English at all and it was all very confusing. I was just basically sound with some text in it, which I couldn't understand. And then I found this really weird thing that I asked my parents for, and I was really looking for it for, like, I think three hours to understand what was that? Because I totally forgot about it. I didn't know who the artist was and anything like that. But that cassette changed everything. And this was Mark ‘Oh, I don't even know if this is any famous at all. Apparently it was a German DJ book at the time, and. This was, I don't know, it was like tears don't lie and things like that. And this was so weird and I didn't even I don't even know if I like it today, but prodigy first and then maybe a year later, this. That really has changed things for me because it got me into this kind of weird almost. I think at the time I felt like it's magical. It's not like techno hardcore kind of thing, but it's more like a magical sound that is a little bit different from what I'm used to. And this was, I think, the beginning of my journey, which is something I really had to look up because I really couldn't, couldn't point if you asked me, let's say, a week ago.

Guy Segal [00.06.47]
That's interesting. So you discovered this thing that really opened you up to this type of music. Where did you go from there? Was it easy to continue that journey? 

Vitaly Friedman [00.06.57]
Oh, God. I think for me this is always the same story throughout my entire life when I start liking things. Oh, I am exploring all of it. I want to take all of it. I like, I want to swim and I want to go left and right because, you know, I'm Aquarius. So I really like swimming and I really want to see this whole ocean explore all the islands and everything that's in there. So I was navigating. I was just listening to everything. It's so strange. Like, sometimes my wife and I are walking and, you know, you have a shopping mall and there is a song playing just relatively, you know, not on. I mean, not famous necessarily, but like one of those songs from, I don't know, 1990s or so. And I can tell immediately who that was, and I could tell immediately what album it came from and things like that. It was so strange because I think at the time, like 90s, so maybe, you know, late 90s or so, I was so obsessed by just exploring. I would explore everything and I would explore everything that not even techno music. I mean, I would be obsessed about Alphaville, and I'd be obsessed about scooter as well, and I'd be obsessed about Roxette, and I would be obsessed about the Corrs. Right? And like all the different things, because I discovered, like, something that I liked and I wanted to discover everything else that I might like as well. Right. And so that really brought me into this adventure. And I would listen to everything, like, everything. I think that between 1994 or 2000, one, 2 or 3 or so, I would listen to absolutely everything. So I think this is also why I can always tell apart, like cranberries from which album that came and all of that. And. I don't even know why. I just I just seem like the thing happened to me in terms of movies, by the way. I felt like I need to know the obscure in the movies. I need to know them really well. And so I watched everything. I think maybe, you know, maybe I had more time back then, I don't know, but it feels like I really spent a lot of time into this. And so eventually, of course, you know, when I started doing some web stuff and all and I started working because I was studying computer science and mathematics when I was kind of at the peak of all these explorations, I just needed something that would bring me in flow. I guess this is just something that I wanted to do. And so in some way, the music, the discovery of music, and I really remember Guy. It was so weird. I remember sitting in the kitchen and I had to prepare for the exam, for math exam, and I was very scared of that. And instead of kind of learning and preparing for that, I was, I think, choosing music for like three hours before that just to get in the mode of learning. And so then I would spend the entire literally night learning something. And this was kind of repeating itself. Maybe, you know, a couple of days, a couple of weeks even, because music is really, really felt important. And then once I got into that and I learned that music can give me joy, but also, I think, calmness. I think this is something that is almost shields me away from all the all the things that are happening in the world. Somehow I feel like maybe even safer when I'm within music in some way. And then, of course, the notion of the flow and the notion of the kind of energy and everything that kind of really pulls you forward somehow, and that always helped. And so from there on, it was just kept exploring and then concerts and then festivals and and all of that. So I think, I think overall when I look back at this, it was just such an important part of my life, which I think a lot of us maybe don't even notice it just, you know, we're listening to some music on a Spotify playlist. Right? But I'm very deliberate these days. I'm very deliberate in almost forcing myself to discover more. Because sometimes you get to the habit of, well, I have a couple of bands that I like, and so I'm going to listen to those bands and all. I count a lot of things that I really don't like. And ironically, I also discover a lot of AI music that I somehow like. And it's a bit weird in a way. And at this point, sometimes I still can tell apart if it's the, you know, AI generated or not music. I'm not sure if I'm wrong or if I'm right. I just keep exploring. It's like become a part of what I have to do to still not be stuck. Somehow if it makes sense. 

Guy Segal [00.11.07]
I want to go back a bit. You discover this style of music. You discovered it in the 90s, right mid late 90s. These days when you discover a new band, it's the easiest thing in the world to go and listen to everything they ever put out. Back then, for those of us who are a bit younger, we couldn't do that. How did you start your discovery journey? 

Vitaly Friedman [00.11.29]
Oh well, there was a you know, I was I was growing up in Belarus and my parents brought me to Germany and when I was 16, in the year 2000. And so I would go to the market and they would always, you know, allow you to play some things. and I would stay there on the rain. I remember it on the rain for 6 or 7 hours, just listening to everything one by one. I had no idea about any of the artists there. I had no idea about what style they have. There was, of course, somebody who would recommend me to should listen to this, listen to that, and I would. And there would be one of those annoying kids who would just stick around for a long time, coming back the next day to do the same thing. And they were buying anything. That was pretty much me, because we didn't have really much money back then. But I think this was sort of a the exploration for me when it all started. But then, of course, there was the time where all of a sudden they could get mp3's on the internet, which was quite nice on its own. And then of course, we'll have had a Napster moment, and then we have the after Napster moment where we realize that it's not a good idea to do something like Napster. And so we I just kept really going through whatever I can find. And also, of course, friends. Right. Finding people who are kind of carry this momentum with you as well. And we would exchange things all the time too. But it took me quite a while to find what I actually really liked, where I would say. This. I mean, because I think it's one thing that we all often and estimate is that to me, music is not just something that you have in the background, which kind of makes you feel better or anything like that. I would say that there are maybe just a few artists who also went through a lot of transformations where I would say, when I'm listening to the music, I'm not just listening to the music. I can almost sense just how much craft and passion and I would say not perfectionism, but just true, genuine ambition and also passion, I would say went into putting this together, making it just the way it is. Right. And so it's not just about songs, it's also the live mixes, the DJs and so on. And when I discover that, I mean, this is a very strong moment for me because sometimes I would actually cry because I feel that this moment, this thing that they created, right, which really has not just enormous energy, it might feel like it's the most, you know, some people would even say the techno music is just almost dead music. You just have a beat and that's all you've got, right? But I can almost sense that there is just an enormous level of, you know, all those things that I mentioned before that really comes together in a piece that is almost like a masterpiece to me. And this is why I sometimes would find myself listening to some live sets or tracks from, you know, from an artist that were recorded just in one specific festival in, you know, 2021. Everything else I don't really listen to somehow. And if something new comes up, then I'm very critical because I have my favorite now and then. I still need to explore and find new artists, of course, as well. But just to give you kind of an idea about that, I remember back in maybe 2019 or 18, maybe even earlier than that I found. Uh. Amelie Lens. Amelie Lens is a Belgian techno artist. She's a DJ in Belgium, and I went into the concert that she was running, and it was like an all night long Amelie. So she would be playing 8 hours or 9 hours and stopped. I just couldn't believe that level of commitment to do good work. And I don't mean it in level. Oh well, the sounds very ambitious in the sounds very fancy. No, no, it was just an enormous level of just desire and commitment to do really good work, to create something that people will remember and create an emotional feeling within people. And this was such a changing moment for me. I mean, I would say that I was there for maybe four hours. It was just incredible. And then of course, we had Covid moment. And I remember listening to the Exit festival there. There is a live session by Emilie Lens. They're from it for 2021. I think it's by far, by far the best single session track where everything just fits beautifully together, right? I guess after Covid we all wanted to do something like this, right? And this was so impressive to me, just so impressive to me. And so I keep coming back to that as well. And also, as I'm speaking about this, I think there is also another thing that really brings me, kind of brings my back memories always brings memories back. And that's Worakls. Worakls. I mean, all maybe Worakls is not that well known compared to maybe some big, you know, DJ's like David Guetta and so on. So although I have a lot of respect for David Guetta, just how what he does as a DJ is incredible. I might not like the music, but just what he does with the music when he mixes it, it's unbelievable. So I have a lot of appreciation for the craft here as well, but with Worakls it's different. Worakls has this really melodic techno music, which makes you feel like it's it's really so beautiful. It's almost like violin in techno, which is beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And then he went even further. And I think in the last couple of years he started doing this work for orchestra, which is basically like mixing literally classical music with orchestra together with the techno music or electronic music, rather, I would say. And this was again another moment when I thought, wow, this is this is just so beautiful. Just so beautiful. And so those two things, I guess, with those two artists I think are always in my toolbox. Right. But I'm always exploring other things as well. Of course.

Guy Segal [00.16.53]
You mentioned this was not techno. This was electronic music, though, and I don't want to get too much into the definitions. But for you, what is kind of like the border around techno music that separates it from house or trance or those kind of other types of genres within electronic music? 

Vitaly Friedman [00.17.12]
Yeah. So I will say that when I had to describe what I personally liked, right. Because, you know, I have to describe what I liked in order to find what I like. Right? When I'm looking for something, it would be always melodic, it would be always minimal. It would be almost like a Berlin style. It's very hard to say, like, uh, no, there is no Berlin style, I guess. But it was kind of like, um, the minimalism that you will often find. And so when I look at that electronic music, it doesn't have to be that sort of thing. It does have to be minimal, but it can be very beautiful and melodic. Right? But at the same time, I'm not really into things that are like EDM or something like that. This is just not necessarily what brings me that energy because I really want to find something. I don't know. Honest and elegant maybe. Or something like that in music, even although it might be very strong bass and all of that. I think there is still a lot of creativity that can be around that. So for me, I guess the techno music is something that would be more along the side of really being maybe. I mean, at least to me, because as you can see, I'm not a music expert by any means, but it would be more minimal. It would be more passive if you like, and more structured, maybe. While melodic music is always going all of the tangents and explores and diverges, almost like classical music would do as well.

Guy Segal [00.18.31]
You said it a big push for you to explore and discover more techno music happened when you moved from Belarus to Berlin. What role did music and techno play in you becoming German? Meeting people and becoming accepted into the community? 

Vitaly Friedman [00.18.46]
Yeah, I would say that I was always very surprised by some things around German music, like for example, I remember at some point also when I moved to, first thing I listened to was Kraftwerk, Kraftwerk from 1970s. And I was like, really? What? This is a little bit different from what I was expecting, right? And I kind of found a lot of culture, a lot of cultural references to Kraftwerk. I found a lot of cultural references to techno music in general. I was not living in Berlin back then, but I was, you know, I would travel to Berlin many times and every now and again I would of course, go to, you know, explore what is happening in the nightlife and all that. And I would find remarkably unique, unique people, unique artists, unique DJs, unique music also in some way. This felt really so weird to me because I thought that you couldn't just find music everywhere. But I think that if you actually are in this world, in this universe of techno music, then it feels much, much different. This probably explains why I'm of course, now in Berlin, although I have to admit that I don't go to nightclubs anymore, right? But I would say that just the notion of looking at, you know, sometimes it's just little things. It's just, you see a poster next to a, you know, one of the techno clubs here and they say, oh, okay, I'm going to take a note and maybe listen to it and check up. Maybe there is like a, like a stream or there is a set on YouTube or anywhere else. This is kind of how I discover it. This would be also the way of how I discover websites. By the way. I just go to random places and then whenever I see like it's a new poster, a new website, new event or whatever happening and just take a picture or just go to the website to see what the website is like. I'm always just curious. And so for music, I think it's the same story. And this has become almost like a key for me to discover new music. And frankly, I just don't. I don't admire or don't value that much. All this top 100 DJ's lists or something like that. Because most of them when I was, you know, I'm a very you know, I'm doing it seriously. So if I take a list, then I go for each of those DJs and I'm going to check if I like the music or not, but just by seeing what they're playing. Top hundred is not not making me particularly happy, right? I just want to explore something that is really in my world in some way, and that also is surprising. Like for example, there is this band that I will always, I will never be able to remember, of course, but there is this band that is also touring, I think, across Germany, because I think they're German and they play techno music without electronic devices. So they take whatever they have, they take, I don't know, chair they take stare like a I don't know, they take books that take, I don't know whatever they have in front of them, the cardboard or anything like that, a table and things like that. And they find and kind of play a techno music, which sounds very much like techno music, just without any electronical devices at all. So it's all live and it's every time unique. When you look at it, it feels so weird. They just basically sit in the kitchen and they see what they have around them. They have knives and they have forks and have tablecloth and whatever and things like that, and they would just play with it. Right. And so I rather find remarkable things like that. Which are again, this incredible commitment. I can just imagine how much effort it goes into preparing or putting together some soundtrack using no music devices at all. Like nothing. I mean, except for maybe, I don't know, fork or knife is classified as music devices, right? So that's just impressive to me. And so this is why I'm more obsessed by looking at those things rather than, let's say at top hundreds or so as I'm exploring. But I would say, like coming back to your question, I would say that what was really surprising to me is that there has always been this connection, a quite obvious connection to me, to techno music in one way or the other, because of a lot of artists coming from, of course, Germany and Berlin as well. Right, especially. And I would just listen to a lot of them, like to a lot of them when I discovered some, which were really surprising and really moved me in another direction. As an example of that, one of the very few kind of concerts, I would say, that changed my life. Like the one was in Luxembourg and by prodigy. I will never forget that. This was my first experience of prodigy live in 2004, maybe or three. By the way, it's a funny story because we went with a friend with friends to Luxembourg because I was living next to France at the time with my parents, and we went to Luxembourg, and we didn't book any hotel because we didn't have any money. And so we were expecting that the concert would be lasting not too long. Right. So I know 2.5 hours maybe max, so would be able to pick up the last bus and then come back, right? Well, that didn't happen because it actually went way longer. And then we had to wait for the bus until I got to the I think arrived around 6:30 a.m. in the morning. It was very cold in Luxembourg, and we were basically just trying to keep ourselves somehow reasonably warm by playing cards. So all night. But this enormous energy that I experienced then in Luxembourg was absolutely unbelievable. And so I went to another concert, which was then very different. But it was maybe years, years later, which was a band that's called Extrawelt or Extra World. And I think I accidentally stumbled upon them at some point in the internet somewhere. And this is again, more the the minimal but also beautiful and kind of melodic techno music as well. And when I was there, I felt like I'm really, really in a magical place. It doesn't give you necessarily energy, right? But it just makes you fly. And so that's sort of a different experience. And I would listen to also one single recording from them as they were playing in Berlin, by the way, in 2006. I mean, they've been around now for 20, 25 years. Tons of new albums, I think, and so on and so forth. If I listen to them, I always listen to that live set from 2006, which I can also link to in the references here, which is still, for me at least the best. It doesn't mean I have to stay and listen to it all the time, but if I want to listen to Extrawelt, I will listen to that specific thing. Although I probably have listened to everything else as well to just experiment and figure it out. But there are always those moments. There are like anchors in my life. I never remember when I discovered them, but they keep following my life in some way or the other, and I think that I have an enormous appreciation for those artists. And so sometimes I would actually buy tickets, although I know I will never be able to go there because they're in a different country or the timing doesn't work. But I would buy tickets because I feel like they have no idea how much they've given to me. In terms of support, in terms of energy, in terms of motivation, in terms of just appreciation, I guess, as well of the work that they're doing. And so I have a couple of tickets that I just keep almost like a the record, I guess, right, that I was kind of almost there, but I wasn't. 

Guy Segal [00.25.43]
That's beautiful. I came to electronic music and specifically techno. I would say probably in an older age. I was very much into rock music and indie rock, and I always looked down on electronic music because, no, this is not this is not real music, right? This is just someone pressing a button. Obviously, I've learned since I'd love to hear your thoughts or maybe even recommendations. Not necessarily of your favorites, but artists or specific albums even that you would recommend someone who is thinking, you know what? I'd like to give this techno thing a try. What would be some of those things that you think would draw them in? 

Vitaly Friedman [00.26.20]
Yeah, so I would love to link to them directly in the notes here. I would say that those things that I mentioned, depending on what you like, right. You can probably move in very different directions because, for example, what I didn’t mention of course, that once I get into techno music and I keep exploring, eventually I'll be exploring drum and bass, and there are moments in my life when I feel like there is. For example, in the UK there is Drumsound & Bassline Smith. It's just so much energy. So whenever I go like, on a bike, oh, this is it. I'm taking turn It on either prodigy or if I want to go all the way, then it would be that and it gives me so much energy. This is just unbelievable. But that's again a bit more on the side there. Right? But if I look at, say at the side of like a techno music, then I would probably go into the Belgian techno music and explore it. There are a lot of artists in there all circling around the label called Excel, which I highly recommend personally. But on the other hand, of course, if you like more and more melodic techno, right, then of course somebody like Paul Kalkbrenner in Germany or Worakls of course, would be very much in order, although they are very, very different, very, very different. This would be kind of my recommendations, but I would say that sometimes I find absolutely remarkable and joyful moments just by finding absolutely unknown people who just happen to do good things. And this is just speaking by speaking to other people who stumbled upon something. And very often people be shazaming things here and there and you would see like this, this, this artist, this track was played 320 times in the last month. But how can it be right? And it just keeps it going. So for me it's more sometimes it's more about the exploration and discovery and figuring out something that I personally like or don't like. Right. That really keeps me going as well. The only thing is, if you explore something new, I can't work at the same time. That's a bit of an issue. So if I if I'm stumbling upon the music that I'm not sure will I like it or not? So I keep playing it and then I need to always switch and go somewhere else and explore some other, some other music in order to keep working. So when I'm working, I need to have something that is. Maybe leave is more familiar, but I always have this moment where I just need to explore. I'm just going to look up, okay, what is happening and who is playing and what are they playing and what is it like and all. And this is why it's actually quite strange. But sometimes I would speak to, you know, younger people like work colleagues and all, and I would know what they are listening in techno music, but they would not know those things that I have listened to then 15 or 20 years ago. But of course, I will not be, for example, for a very long period of time. Please don't blame me everyone. I literally didn't know. I think up until maybe last year, I literally didn't know who Taylor Swift is. I had absolutely no idea. Right. Because this is kind of not really my world now I do, now I do. There's just a few who are sending throwing stones at me. I'm okay. I'm okay.

Guy Segal [00.29.15]
One more question. Do you listen to a lot of music while you work? When you're at home and you go to shows, you go to concerts, you can see the live music. How are the two different modes of listening to music affect you differently?

Vitaly Friedman [00.29.27]
Oh, this is such a good question Guy. I think when I'm working, the music almost becomes partially invisible. When I'm at a concert, the music is very much visible, right? And this is where I'm literally listening to it, right? If I had to remember the moment when I was listening to music, I would probably find it difficult if I had to remember the moments when I went to a concert, I would be remembered vividly. I think one of the last, most memorable experiences, almost cinematic experience, that I had was in justice, justice when it came. I mean, they did a tour around Europe and they are also from Paris and they. Every now and again they put up a new album, and then they turn it into a cinematic experience, which means an enormous amount of lighting, an enormous amount of everything happening within the area where you are. And they had this tremendous concert where I couldn't believe it. It was just, again, it's the same feeling like, this is so much love that was put into this and thought and care and desire to create a very special experience. I think in the end, if I really think about this, what I really appreciate most is this designer, because ultimately musicians are designers in my world. What I mean by that is, well, they're designing this cinematic musical audio experience and guide people through it and connect parts of it, and they have a storytelling part of it, and they need to have a good entry. Then you have a good outro and they create these memories and experiences around us. And so this moment for like with the Justice again, it was so memorable, I think that I would probably remember to most concerts I went to, but this is mostly because of that experience. You are there in a moment and you are there like 1.5 hours, and you're really absorbed into this passion and desire and people and everything. While if you're sitting in front of your machine and you're working, it's a bit different because you just supports you and kind of brings you to places. But it doesn't elevate me to the level necessarily, because I'm, I guess I'm listening to a lot of same music right over time. If I keep if I need to get in flow mode compared to the cinematic experience that I would get in in an actual performance, which I experienced live, I always remember every single live performance, live concert that I've ever been to. I think this is always a very, very special moment for me.

Guy Segal [00.31.47]
That’s awesome. Vitaly, where can people find you? 

Vitaly Friedman [00.31.50]
Well, I'm everywhere, I think. Well, not everywhere, but I'm trying to be, well, I guess on LinkedIn. Somehow I ended up getting a spot on LinkedIn somehow. So every time I'm posting things, usually it will go on LinkedIn. But I also have a newsletter and stuff like that. Maybe eventually. I'm really working on this, but I'm really so bad at planning those things. I'm hoping that I will be publishing more things on YouTube and just video stuff. We'll see. But also you can find me wonderful podcasts like Guy Segal’s podcast, I heard. So that's usually a good thing, but I'm trying to be there. So if anybody wants to reach out to me, please do reach out to me. I'm not one of those people who is hiding behind the name address and never replies. I try to reply as much as I can. 

Guy Segal [00.32.31]
That is absolutely true. Thank you so much for joining us, Vitaly. 

Vitaly Friedman [00.32.35]
Thank you so much, Guy. It's been a pleasure. If anybody's interested in techno music or anything else, please I know, send me a request or something or just a message. I can definitely bring you to hundreds of different worlds depending on what you like. 

Guy Segal [00.32.49]
This is all for this episode of Design Downtime. Thank you for joining me. And until next time, I hope you enjoy your downtime.