Laura: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of Articulations, a podcast by ITERARTE. My name is Laura Edgerton, and I'm delighted to be in conversation with Tamara Chalabi to discuss her latest exhibition, Beneath the Gaze of the Palms, which she co curated in Riyadh in December 2024 as part of Common Grounds Festival, organized by the Saudi Ministry of Culture.
So Tamara, can we start off by you telling us a little bit about where this exhibition began? 
Tamara: Hi Laura. Yes, this exhibition began, within the context of cultural diplomacy. Within this festival that you mentioned, Common Grounds, that that's, something the, the, the kingdom, the Ministry of Culture and Saudi has launched to kind of celebrate, Saudi in the context of its neighbors.
This, specific edition with Iraq [00:01:00] was very, Important, for both countries and for setting the right tone because of, the, the, the, a, the, the shared borders, but also like, you know, endless, connections over millennia, actually, and particularly, a project that has been in the making under UNESCO, called Derb Zubeida.
A trail established during the Abbasid period. In the eighth century AD, pilgrimage route from Baghdad to Mecca. Even though the exhibition, was not uniquely dedicated to this route, this route played a very big role in the way that we shaped the exhibition and the themes around which the exhibition, was developed.
Laura: Wonderful. And you worked with Jomana Guth as a co curator, commissioned by the Ministry of Culture. So did you, you each brought artists, that you've worked with previously, a combination of, of works, from the Ibrami collection as well as new commissions. 
Tamara: It was a wonderful [00:02:00] collaboration with Jumana, who was handling the Saudi part.
It was a constant conversation reflective of the overall story between Iraq and Saudi, in terms of the positivities, but also the challenges.
We had many challenges, but the main one was the fact that this show was taking place in a space that we had to design and build. It wasn't being, shown in an existing space which was interesting and challenging because we're talking about a massive space the size of, two football pitches.
And so the idea of this grandiosity of the space as well as trying to, decide on the suitability of the works. And, most importantly, thematically how this was going to work out. We decided on a series of themes, which guided us in the selection of the artists and the works.
Dealing with the Iraqi part, presented a different set of challenges than with, Saudis, with Iraq, given its turbulent and rich history, you have artists who are in the diaspora, you have a whole body of work of modernists, hence [00:03:00] reaching out to the Ibrahimi collection because they have an interesting, body of that, plus artists from within Iraq The different artistic cultures, at the end of the day, the experiences are very, very different.
I mean, there is no proper ecosystem within the Iraqi context to support artists and help them in the last 40, 50 years, whereas Saudi has a very different approach. Artists in Saudi can't keep up with the amount of attention and shows that their ministry is providing them as a platform.
And so it's a very different reality. The Iraqi artistic scene, I would say is older in the sense that, the whole interaction with modernism started much, much earlier and I would say a few decades earlier.
And it's just a very different approach and so that was challenging, but challenging in a good way for me. I was very, interested of exploring the themes. And these were basically seven themes that we worked on. 
Laura: Just to go back to those modernists as well, I think it's fascinating when you look back historically how there [00:04:00] was movement between the two nations, 
Tamara: there were artists who were, teachers from Iraq who came to Saudi many of them are friends and collaborators, despite their distinctive, you know, It's a sort of nationhood in a sense that there is a, I mean, there's also been many exhibitions in Saudi uncovering, Saudi modernists who maybe haven't been, haven't been known, you know, that, that generation. 
In Iraq, you had artists who were studying in the Slade in London and the Beaux Arts in Paris in the 1920s. it's an interesting way of looking at time and the evolution of nationhood in how the works of these artists reflected that. And of course, in the context of, Iraq at the time, historically, there is a lot more figuration, because, it was part of a whole experimental, scene, in the Saudi case, considering 
Tamara: islam and the state there's a much more abstraction if you like, and things that, are not really explored, for a variety of reasons, that provide a very different aesthetic, interestingly.
Laura: And so you [00:05:00] selected were kind of intentionally quite universal, right? I mean, tackling, very much kind of identity, heritage, nature, the land and water.  
Tamara: I think they're always very relevant. I'm quite fond of universal themes because I think they're multi layered and you can unpick a lot out of that.
Within this context, we had seven themes. As you mentioned, there was heritage and identity. There was the, pioneers, the modernists, and, and, you know, that was very much in connection with the experience of both countries their discovery of oil and their relationship within the 20th century and modernization we talked about, land and water as very organic elements that are a fundamental conversation in both countries, whether it's about, lack of water or, flooding, whether it's about, desertification .  
There's so many angles to it. And then it continued into the inner self, with the inner world and the self, which was more autobiographical, artists who are more concerned with their own kind of [00:06:00] trajectory and identity rather than a larger national one.
We had, movement and migration, a fascinating topic that deserves a lot more exploration. We had, everyday life, which Is interesting and how that's practiced and communicated, among different artists of different generations from both countries.
Laura: , can you tell us about the entry point that you chose to create for the exhibition under a Mudhif, how this was an important reference point to the community, the link between art and architecture?
Tamara: Yeah, it seems really interesting to incorporate, something of the larger concept of, identity and heritage, from the context of a modif, which is a very particular and unique structure that goes back to Sumerian times that is still a living.
thing, meaning people still build them and live in them. In the marshes, they're, made entirely of reed from the [00:07:00] marshlands of Iraq propped in water. And I found this to be really interesting in the context of the fact that it's
one of the structures that is referred to as low tech architecture. In the context of environmentalism and ecological sustainability, I really thought it fit into the larger conversation. This was a very ambitious project to have embraced in the short time we had to do the show, because, it required, a whole team of builders, artisans from the marshlands.
to prepare this structure in Iraq, requires a lot of, preparation and to come, by land from, the marshes near Nasiriyah all the way to Riyadh in order to, construct it on site, in a very different terrain the floors are concrete, you can't drill into them.
So having to find this, the innovation of how you would, make this work which it did. And, we had a beautiful structure that people were invited, to it was the entry point of the entire show. So it kind of set a certain tone. [00:08:00] 
Laura: And it connects to the idea of the modulus as a place of gathering, 
Tamara: absolutely. We as a place of gathering, but also being something relatable also in Saudi, even though that, marshland ecosystem doesn't exist. I mean, there's something very, archaic about it.
It's incredibly, connected to nature. It is made out of nature and is, a structure entirely held together with natural elements. I think these are very important. points. This journey of discovery that many, Saudi artists are undertaking, is fascinating and , has an anthropological angle, there are so many elements we're not completely familiar with that are reflective of, the Saudi flora and fauna, and, things outside the cities in different areas of Saudi that are quite varied, 
so I thought it was an interesting way to introduce the whole show through that.
Laura: Let's dwell as well on the kind of poetic nature of the title of the exhibition, Beneath the Gaze of the Palms, which of course does immediately reference the shared climates and.  
elements of nature across the two [00:09:00] nations. How did you come up with this title? 
Tamara: I'm a big fan of the palm tree. I love palms. I find them so poetic and, majestic. My exposure to them has been mostly in Iraq seeing places that feel like They stopped in time you have like these sort of very lush palm forests, if you like, which kind of is seems anachronistic with the idea of palms and desert and so on, and and sort of lushness I find fascinating, but also beautiful to look at and to be on to be kind of walking through.
And there's a story about one particular palm, which is called the Berhi palm, which is a type of palm tree, much, valued in Saudi, and actually came from Basra in the 19th century through, trade. A merchant brought this palm and has a lot of value.
And in fact, it's kind of a protected, type of fauna that you can't just cut down I thought that was an interesting point of connection, there's something, very poetic about the palm tree because it's one of the taller trees that, exists out there the idea you [00:10:00] would have it be almost like a conduit between the skies, the celestial world and the earthly world. And, you know, it's rooted in the earth, but then it kind of like speaks to the skies. It just felt a very apt, title for,, this particular, exhibition, but also like, as it also homage to in a way, something that we see probably daily.
I mean, it's part of the Saudi government insignia, it was a good way to emphasize the commonality and the shared sky 
Laura: Yes.
And the permanence or the sky and the earth and the permanence. 
Tamara: Absolutely.
Laura: Continuity of that, but it's also kind of suggestive of shade, isn't it, and shelter as well, 
Tamara: yes. It's the idea that not only does it inspire you, feed you, it protects you and nurtures you, and it has its ways. I'm not the best expert on the different uses of the palm tree and the fronds but there are so many elements to the palm tree that go beyond just the dates.
The creativity over millennia of how different, parts of the palm tree have been used. 
Laura: The evolution of the palm, we've seen it in the [00:11:00] Islamic Biennale in Jeddah. 
Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. Incredible and so resourceful.
 
Laura: It is a fascinating strand of contemporary art practice looking at this human non human relationship, this symbiotic relationship that can be developed how we can have that duality Between what's around us, what's been there for generations and how, humans have penetrated that and how they can use it for contemplation, for, for shelter, for, for sustenance.
Tamara: Exactly. In reference to that, Laura, it was really interesting. When at some point, in the second room, which is where the modernists were housed, both Saudi and Iraqi, I was very worried about the way that the space was gonna shape up.
Because it felt that, there was so much to absorb I thought it would be a good idea to have an area where people could sit rest and contemplate in a salon like environment. Reflective of the whole modernist era, 
and so we decided that it would be best to. potentially have a real living palm tree in the middle of this space. And talking about, you [00:12:00] know, I mean, the ceilings are so high, it's like a hanger. It was a very humbling moment when the palm trees, because there were three were brought in by the palm sellers to install
in this space, suddenly this very ancient world opened up where you had these guys climbing up the trees to balance the tree and , push it down to be rooted a whole different element of society appeared within this contemporary art exhibition it was dramatic. People were moving quickly.
There was a lot of concern about , stabilizing them, but also they were so big and it just for me, the contrast between the human size and the palm tree size and how many men were needed to position it and so on.
 It was like one of the most delightful moments of the show. 
Laura: Oh, that's wonderful. I think that's so fascinating how we feel particularly in this region, there's conflicts, between humans, but the balance of power, with nature, is really vital and very close to, the work that is on show as well.
Maybe we could consider some of the commissions you made with Iraqi [00:13:00] artists and talk through some of those. The title for me is very resonant of Adel Abedin's, for example, they were here. I think it's again, talking about this notion of time, which is something we talk about a lot, at Iterate.
Do you want to talk us through some of that? 
Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think Adel's commission was, one of the most ambitious. And challenging to install in that space. I was happy that he accepted the invitation to participate.
And although this was a project that he was developing prior to the show, it kind of expanded, , in terms of the work that was going to be shown. And then we had conversations, curatorially speaking, and there was a lot of bouncing back of ideas.
And I mean, Adel proposition, is very much about the whole notion of time, but time across millennia, they were here is a multimedia installation a philosophical meditation on the passage of time across millennia. And, it's rather existential in the sense that the entire, installation, which is composed of, film, sculpture and painting, [00:14:00] is, built around the, this object called the Standard of Ur, which is from the Sumerian era in Iraq, going back to 2600 years BC, and is One of the kind of the key artifacts, of the Sumerian period at the British Museum and Adel basically re recreated, a copy of that, with a mosaic artist in Jordan.
 It's the size of a rectangle with two large surfaces on each side, and whereas the original had on, on both sides, figures. I mean, the whole idea of the standard is connected to peace and war and it's a meditation on the nature of man.
And in Adel's case, he actually, made the copy of it he depopulated it so that the figures in the original standard were spread across this very large table walking through time.
Entering into the film being shown above the table. It was extremely poetic in the film. You have the [00:15:00] image of a tailor making small clothes, a marker of how, clothes reflect the change of identity.
We are the same. Creatures, but, you know, with, with about 5000 years apart of how, how we change in, in, in our surroundings and, and the things that contain us. There were so many layers to this work, that I thought was rather beautiful and, very interesting to, work with Adel.
He's, extremely professional and exacting. This was the very last. Minute show in a sense. And, there was, you know, interesting challenges to overcome. Of course. Yes. And that representation of, artists, who are displaced, who live in the west, yet, still have that resonance and connection with the homeland, deeply.
Absolutely. And it's sort of, it's very much fit into the theme of, of movement and migration, which was, as I said, one of the more important, at least for me, I resonated a lot with that theme. The idea of a journey is very central to our philosophies as well.
Very much, yeah. The other work that I really enjoyed commissioning was the work of Fahre Salih, an [00:16:00] artist, currently based in Germany. It was called The Cage, the work was made up of, roughly 650 handmade, bird cages specific to the nightingale, which in Arabic is called the bulbul.
And we actually ordered these cages to be made by this family, in Baghdad, in one of the outskirts of Baghdad. These cages are made from palm fronts. They built 650 cages in record time that we then had to ship by land, across, Iraq into Saudi, where then they were installed on a metal structure that the artists had designed, to reflect, the idea of the cage as kind of like a more symbolic, you know, presentation of freedom of the idea of like to invite the human to enter into a cage made up of bird cages and reverse the roles also as a homage to, to to certain elements within Iraqi, history and folklore, when Radio Baghdad was set up, in 1936 the first [00:17:00] sound played on the radio, was, the song of the nightingale.
Became a tradition. So every morning when radio Baghdad, opened, the first sound you heard was that of the nightingale. So there's, many different elements of, of, of, you know, I think it resonated with, with, with, with, you know, a lot of people.
And different experiences. For him, there was also a connection with, the feeling of being imprisoned in a place, like where you can't leave because you don't have the right papers or the passport, etc. When you may want to leave, as has been the case during the war in Iraq, or the idea of us being, you know, prisoners of our own, issues of our own selves, et cetera.
So again, many layers to it that enjoyed discovering. 
Laura: I love that connection to sound and how that can permeate and go beyond the physical, entrapments. And traverse across borders and, and, and have a kind of impact,  
Tamara: And, I think we saw that more recently in the Shahjah Biennale opening and how, the use of sound was democratic [00:18:00] and sort of unifying.
It really is way borderless. And despite the fact that we have different kinds of sounds and all sorts of categorizations that it's something that sort of transcends all of it, because it, there's no filter it just goes into your ear and then you have to process it.
 
Laura: When you're connecting it to time as well. It is by its very nature, temporal and ephemeral. Like you say, the nature of the repetition of having the same sound every day on the radio, there can be that sense of repetition and order and structure, in kind of timekeeping and connections.
Tamara: Yes. But also the fact that the sound. Of the nightingale sounds the same. I mean, you can have a nightingale today and they would be, saying the same. Also eternal in a way.  
Laura: Which as societies change, you can still connect to them.
Tamara: It's kind of something rooting. 
Laura: And there was other soundscapes, created by other artists. Asma Al Essa looking at the Botanical Garden  
Tamara: asma Al Essa, was a commissioned work that I really enjoyed, collaborating with her on. Asma was open minded to, expand on a project that she'd done and be receptive to certain ideas and suggestions. It was [00:19:00] a reconstructed garden that we actually built in the space.
She was part of the theme of land and water that shape the internal garden she took the outline, of a botanical garden in Baghdad, a lovely, place somewhat forgotten, in the context of, of everything going on.
Which was set up in, in the early 20s, 1920s. And, has played a very interesting role over the years in terms of preserving the indigenous plants and seeds of Iraq. 
But I just thought it would be interesting to reconnect again with. She used the botanical garden as a place of reference and selected, specific, plants that were unique or particular to Iraq and had existed back in Mesopotamian times.  
Then she did a recording of, the sound of the birds in the actual botanical garden in Baghdad. It was kind of an also an invitation to, to sit, you know, we had these benches and to sit and kind of contemplate enjoy [00:20:00] the flora listen to the sound and be transported to another era. 
Laura: Yeah. I think going back, I'd love, to talk briefly about, your own personal heritage, the displacement of your family from, Baghdad, in the 20th century and this yearning and nostalgia for these spaces, and how that is a resonant theme throughout Iraqi artists.
Given the history of warfare. These dualities between peace and war and finding some sense of peace, individually.  
Tamara: I would probably argue that I'm still dealing with displacement.
My other. Half is Lebanese and we've had a very challenging year, with everything going on in Lebanon and the war we're still living very much in displacement. Maybe it is kind of rooted from my own experiences.
both inherited and ones that I've lived through, this idea of, movement and displacement. But I think it's just a very interesting concept, because there's so many different definitions of displacement. One is obviously about loss. And movement disconnection, but also, psychological states we are displaced because of [00:21:00] so many things, let's say, war and violence, whether it's ecological, whether it's simply, the passage of time and modernization, whether it's technology, 
open ended ongoing subject, that, can be, explored in so many different ways, universally. I'm really interested in that. And I just think there's so much in it. In the context, going back to this show, There were so many layers to it.
Although, I was, joking a lot with my co curator about the difference between the Saudi and the Iraqi artists. Even the very dramatic changes that are taking place in Saudi Arabia, as far as this vision 2030 and many different societal changes also cause a form of displacement in people, in terms of their perceptions and, their need to adapt and how they respond to things, obviously from a creative artistic perspective.
So it's very relevant, for me, the whole idea of. Mecca as the pivotal point of pilgrimage for the Islamic world.
And the constant wave of [00:22:00] movement and displacement, it's a little bit different in Iraq, but in Iraq, you also have, many different shrines. It's a very important place of pilgrimage where people go to purify, to worship, to practice devotion, which is a whole other angle as well.
From that, you have so many offshoots. Translate differently. 
Laura: Absolutely. Baghdad is a center of learning, for millennia connecting to, early writing books and that whole culture of gathering, knowledge.
Tamara: Yes. And how that knowledge, moved and, was dissimulated and the transmission of it. You know, the rediscovery of Greek texts that were then translated to Arabic that were then, you know, diffused to the West, you know, like, and just so many elements existed, and, we talk about them, but, you have very tenuous, Connections today that you see in the form of, a manuscript or, an archaeological site that is almost disappearing and the fact that we still talk about it that it's so [00:23:00] relevant.
And it is so relevant. Appears again and again, in different ways. This is one of the items I was very pleased about because we had one section and the exhibition that Jumana particularly did most of the work on because it was to do with the Darb Zubaydah, it didn't really involve contemporary art per se, but it was designed by a very interesting architectural studio in Riyadh called Studio Bound.
And so it's just the recreation of the root focusing on the wells, the. Arresting points, et cetera, and the different archaeology that has been uncovered I was really happy that I could contribute, at least from the Iraqi side, with certain manuscripts of pilgrims, from that period, that exist at the Iraqi manuscript house in Baghdad, which has a very rich collection that is, underexposed, I love the use of the term roots, because when you're going back to nature, to the palms, this is what's permeating and, spreading between the two nations. Congratulations, Tamara. What an achievement.
What do you feel the impact of this exhibition, is going to be [00:24:00] on, the global scenes or, you know, specifically. To be honest, I think that this kind of exhibition, speaks to a wider audience it's not just about being Saudi or Iraqi because, you know, there's so many trade routes in that area.
And I mean, they all at some point interconnect. So even this route, connects with the route that they call the Levantine route that comes through Syria. Routes that come through the east, via Iran into Baghdad roots that, connected to the spice route and the Arabian Peninsula.
For me, this is the beginning of a larger project exploring, the connections between, heritage and contemporary art because I think it creates a very interesting conversation and opens up many different worlds that are otherwise, unexplored and has a very interesting local agency to it by engaging with artists from these areas you're creating a different kind of conversation and having, a traveler coming and reporting on what he's seen locally.
I think it opens up a whole new way of, exhibition subjects, but also of different [00:25:00] kinds of collaborations that are much needed. 
I couldn't agree more. I mean, in many senses, it's timeless, but also, very specific in its sense as well.
Well, thank you so much, Tamara. 
Thank you, Laura. 
Laura: Thank you. Pleasure to talk. Bye.