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Welcome to a new episode by Articulations from Itterate.

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My name is Laura Edgerson. I'm the editorial director of Itterate. And with me today are

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the Sinistri. I'm delighted to be sitting in a beautiful garden in North East London

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to the Sinistri who were founded in 2017 in London, a visionary collaboration between

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artist Burt Gilbert and Iset Erz, transcending traditional boundaries to engage in creative

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and emotional dialogue. Gilbert's energetic artwork decodes layers of subtext within conversation

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while Erz responds with meticulous stitch work and applique. Together they draw inspiration

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from Jungian psychoanalysis to explore the union for male and female, a so-called SIGI.

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Inaugural project, a series of genderless liberation suits, which I just have the pleasure

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of looking at here, offer both the wearer and viewer visceral emancipation from conscious

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and unconscious realm. This collaboration exemplifies an amalgamation of mediums driven

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by shared commitments to proving human connection and self-discovery. So what I really want us

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to all get out of today is to unpack the ways in which you work together, what draws you

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together and really what you want people to come away with from seeing your work. So let's

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start with where we all start with how we're named, with our very beginnings, our origins.

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So the sinistry, myself being left-handed, I've always had a real connection with the

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sinister, with the left-hand side of the brain, with how we work. I know there's many different

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levels in which you came upon this name. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

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I think that the left-handed thing is always we have this work play with our work. So it

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started with that and then sinister turned sinistry, which is not an existing word, but

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it's kind of felt right. I don't know what do you think about it?

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Well, also we discovered after the fact that in astrology there's a sinister where two

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people's charts meet. So I think it was again started with this idea of the subconscious,

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which I would sort of associate with the left and then essentially that idea of something

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that's hidden beneath. A bit like the shadow as well, because people

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with the right hand, the left hand is your shadow. I think we wanted to look darker.

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We were just kind of consciously looking. And then there's a genderisation of that,

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I think as well. Sinister feels more feminine than male to me. Weaker somehow in some sense.

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I think it's kind of multi-layered. It's quite difficult. And also there was something that

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was humorous in it. Also in politics, like left, sinister means

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left in Latin. So it's like it comes from there probably and all the meanings in different

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parts and in different languages is kind of felt right.

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And also it was a kind of wordplay on ministry. Yeah, as well.

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There's something that's vaguely evangelical about it.

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There was a religious overtone to it. I know.

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Which I quite like. Yeah.

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You know, there's something that's slightly self-engrandising in it.

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And also down with, we decided to use it as our point of view, like the finistry of something,

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like the finistry of music, of fashion, of this body, of this self-elected body.

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Yeah, exactly. Like professionalism.

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Exactly. So there was that as well. And then subsequently,

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I think I was kind of fascinated with the fact that there was an astrology connection,

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even though it's felt differently. I just like the fact that there is this intersection

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like a viscous crisis of where the two things meet and how at those points, how they complement

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the masculine and the feminine. So it's a union as well.

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Yeah. So balance and symmetry is there.

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And crossover and overlap. And perhaps without being again over the top,

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like a sort of divine union of something. Like the idea of it, I don't know if pure

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is the right word, but like alchemical. It's the origins as well.

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Yeah. It's going back to... I mean, I use that in my practice separately

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about crisis, but I would just think that this is how it works together with those two

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things meet. I mean, that takes you back to Jung, of course,

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between the unconscious and the conscious mind. And then that's where the scissor...

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So that's why he talks about scissorgy of divine masculine, divine feminine. He talks

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about that kind of meaning. What made you become an artist? Was there

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a particular work or cultural experience that made you think I've got to make work?

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Did it come at some level? For me, yeah. For me, it started different

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obviously to Barth because I studied in Saint Martins. I did foundation and I did BA in

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fashion, but I was always interested like in drawing, making stuff, all this. But I

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just used it in a different medium. It was like an emotional take mainly. And also I

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worked quite a long period in fashion. I just needed to have a break. It was kind of, I

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took some time off and then I met her at around the same time.

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So it kind of... When you were wanting to do your own thing

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as well. I wanted to do something, my own thing, but

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it had to be something different with creativity. And I thought that was the right medium for

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me. I don't know.

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Yeah, but I think it's quite lonely to start with. It does require a degree of self-belief

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or delusion.

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I know. Also, obviously you carry what I was before, the whole ego and the titles. You

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have to everything. For me, it was a change. I went through change psychologically. I

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just got who I was, who I thought I was and all these things. You need to kind of, it's

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more like knowing yourself, go a bit more deeper. And I think I just realized who I

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was. I can use in art, which I kind of sometimes, I don't think fashion necessarily reflected

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exactly who I was. I think it's more of a medium that I kind of, when I do things people

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see, they will have an idea who I am now. And that makes me, I think I'm happier with

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myself.

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It's the emotion side.

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Yeah, exactly.

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It's mental. I mean, it's one of those forces that pulls you towards it.

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Yeah. I mean, I personally have conflicting relationships. I think it's difficult. I think

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it's not something that you choose. I think it's something that you had a compulsion to

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do and that is, I find that it can be quite lonely. So it's nicer to work with somebody

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because it is extremely existential. I do think that, yeah, it's given to you rather

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than you choose to do it.

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How old were you when you knew you were going to be an artist?

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I mean, from very little. Like, I mean, I also, I got into medical school at the same

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time I got into art school. And there was this conflict because I think I am a frustrated

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surgeon in here. And I come from like my father, a great grump, but they were all dentists

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and they all wanted me to go into medical school. And I kind of did it, went to St.

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Martin's originally just to piss it off. So, you know, there's a weird tension in it for

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me.

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Yeah, but I think it's quite similar similarities, I think, the idea of the surgeon. Like I think

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to be a doc and artist, I think it's kind of-

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Well, they worked-

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I think it's kind of fine, but I think there is definitely similarities.

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Well, they originally, the artists were brought in to draw the body in order to communicate,

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you know.

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There was always a relationship there. Interestingly, I did work as a medical illustrator for a

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while, but I was always-

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So I think for me, there's always this angle of the investigation of looking physically

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at the body and then looking at its interior and exterior, like on many different levels.

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So we very much focus on storytelling and narrative kind of within that. And I feel

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we've already gone through many different kind of climatics throughout history and psychology

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within your work. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about your subject matter, I suppose,

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in a way. And let's get back to manifesto, because obviously crucial to your work when

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you launched with these fantastic liberation suits, it was all based on a manifesto. We

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just had a recent essay in our magazine about surrealism. There's obviously connections

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going back to Andre Breton, 1924, that time. So can I talk to you a little bit about why

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you felt it's important to have a manifesting and then how it manifested itself in your

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work?

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I think because between us, all of the work really comes out of the conversations on a

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personal level. And that's how we met this kind of interplay and a lot of jokes. I think

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there's something about distilling something down in words that can be-

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With humor.

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With humor.

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It's like the humor meets the conversation, but then you're distilling it with like a

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very sharp humor, which kind of doesn't need too much to talk about it because the minute

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you laugh at something, it kind of brings the light into it. It kind of opens. So I

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think it helps us, a lot, both of us to go-

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Well, you can go dark and some of it is quite cutting, but there's a darkness and a lightness

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at the same time. And I think there's something about humor that is sort of arrow through

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things. It can get a point across a lot quicker than a massive text. And there's the point

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of cliches. There's something in cliches. There's an ancient or inherited wisdom to

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them. Because if you can distill something down to a line or a word, it's like a symbol,

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isn't it? It kind of pups-

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A way of saying it is, like, because we use certain phrases and like certain patterns

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and all the things is almost like, as you talk, like the words, they become somehow

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the sequence of it, makes it, brings the humor out and kind of almost ignites the whole,

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oh, okay, this is what he means. And it's kind of-

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And it's another part. You know, I do think it's like, I mean, what someone told me, it

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was the lowest form of wit. I think it's, I don't know if I agree with that. I just

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think it could cut through quite dense topic. So the idea with when we create these manifestos,

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which again is essentially quite pretentious on some level, but I kind of like that pretension

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because it's also, if you read what we're doing, it's meant, there's a lightness and

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there's levity in there, but there's also light and dark in there.

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And you're talking about bleeding between the lines and the pain you're seeing like

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between a conversation somewhere. I think you need the humor to talk about it. Otherwise

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it gets too much. Yeah. It kind of becomes too contained.

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And also I think it's extremely visual. For example, that phrase is definitely how I would

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view my own practice of bleeding. I think as artists, you do bleed between the lines

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and read between the lines. What is said is not meant. Like you can feel, I'm always being

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fascinated in subtext. And so both of us are, and that's the word play in it, because I

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think some people say things and it's like, you could feel it's, well, that doesn't feel

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right or so I kind of think both of us love that kind of play in like what is said is

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not meant. And although what we're saying is meant, but it's also not. It's kind of

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round and round it goes. It's like, if that makes any sense.

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Yeah. I think just kind of in all these layers, how deep you can go through these layers to

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understand what it means. And then you realize it is also psychology. We don't only have

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one layer. You need to go deeper and you can work further. So I think it's just like a

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continuous work, which we can't show it all in our work. So it's not just one direction.

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It's not, we don't want to just say this or there is something else underneath that. And

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also there is more underneath that. Well, it's a duality, isn't it? Of what?

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Definitely duality. Two things exist. It's like either or, neither

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nor. It's like there's a quantumness in it. It's not just yes and no. It's not binary

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in it. It can be interpreted in a multitude of ways.

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Yeah. And also they can be both, right? The whole idea of there can be duality and like

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both opposite can be possible and they can exist without contradicting each other. I

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mean, it can contradict by taking exist. There is a paradox in it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And

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that's like, again, goes back to you and your guy holding the tension, the tension of the

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opposite and then you hold it. And then when you stay there long, a new option comes out

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to as a creative like this, all the creativity comes if you stay long in that tension.

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Fascinating. I mean, can we talk a little bit more about the kind of the eligibility

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of the languages? Because, you know, language as we're hearing is so key, similar to your

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practice, but you looked at some wonderful examples through manifesto using many different

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types of scripts, which are ancient. Some of them maybe are lost. You talk a little

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bit about specific languages and legibility and understanding and kind of clarity and

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how you kind of either say, either stitch them or print them and what your experience

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of these languages and text and alphabets, glyphs, symbols are in your practice.

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I mean, I think again, it comes back down to the idea of words being incantations and

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resonant on many levels. So when the word is spoken, it has its own vibration in that,

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but then also that can be represented symbolically as another way to feel the words symbolically

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as well as what's written. So to me, the symbol or the glyph, it's a simplification, but also

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another way of looking at what we're trying to say. There's a bridge or a thread through

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all of these different, I'd call them languages.

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It's kind of, you use sometimes the same symbols, but it can be totally different, but then

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you can separate them each and then they're visual, but also every language has a different

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tonation and different word. It's like, it's so many things done and then kind of fascinating

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and it's all about to understand each other. It goes back to connection, communication,

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connection, all of the stuff, but also it's a major miscommunication and cut off the connection.

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You use it in a way, it's again, like holding the opposite, like it's like duality, it's

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a separator or connector. If you choose it while you go through it. And even like the

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other languages like Hebrew and like totally different alphabet. And now we use like cuneiform

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was one of the first like phonetic writing way. So it's like so many things in the history

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and like different cultures are used. I think it's fascinating, but for us using it, you

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can be, for me it's like the just that symbol and also the repetition of it.

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I was going to say repetition.

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The repetition of it.

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In different examples of your work, in different mediums.

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Yeah, the sequence and the repetitions of it in different sequences makes us understand

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each other.

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But also for me, the symbols are also ideograms. So they hold the whole concept in that one

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symbol. I love that idea that you can reduce something down to a whole concept that can

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help be held just in the symbol of an eye or the symbol of a snake that translates across

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time and all civilized and like all different cultures of symbols. And they're in every

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culture.

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And comes back that cave, you know, we were last, they found in the caves, like the oldest

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things and it still has very similarities because it's kind of this almost from the

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unconscious probably. It's kind of an archetype. So we kind of go into.

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They're archaic symbols. Some people say that if like when you kind of rub your eyes, there's

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these, you can see these certain patterns when you rub your eyes and that these were

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where the original kind of mark makings and cave's cave, these like archaic symbols that

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first started out as lines, then developed into written language like the cuneiform and

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then it kind of translated, you know, then it was started to be spoken. Though it's not

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an accurate like history that I'm explaining.

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This is what's interesting, isn't it? Because you're fictionalizing this. You're creating

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fiction in some senses. Yeah. That's rooted in. It's rooted in things. Is it rooted more

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historically?

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I think it's a combination of things that are already inherent. I think it's like remembering

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things that we've forgotten.

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As human.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I think this remembering of a lot of different things, ways of being, ways of connecting.

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Ways of seeing, ways of feeling.

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And I'll tell you a little bit about the senses as well, you know, because I think the parts

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of the body are vital as well in what you're actually producing in the subject matter and

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that kind of basic human sense of sights, touch, how do they feed in as well? Do you

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see that coming through?

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Well, yes. We spent thousands of hours on that. Within that is all of the senses are

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in there at some point. What you hear, see, feel, touch, taste.

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We use them also as symbology. Obviously, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

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We just put down there's a lot of sensory organs and then again with the language, what

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the phrases become and what was originally for. I don't know if I'm answering the question.

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And it's a game too. I think it comes back to the games. I mean, the I Spy that we were

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just looking at, the Snakes and Ladders.

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Yeah. Our research was actually like all these old board games that no one remembers how it's

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played as well. So I think it's kind of our attempt to kind of bring it and just like,

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you know, see what happens if we created like.

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Also, there's like rules to a game, but then some people are playing them and some other

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people are playing them.

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Yeah, there are rules almost not to have them.

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We discovered this ancient board game called Menmere and they've forgotten the rules of

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it. It's a coiled snake. You apparently used to throw sticks, but no one can remember how

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to play it. And then, you know, it just became this wordplay. Yeah. Sort of lunacy wordplay

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of which rules to follow and that really no one's really winning on any level.

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Yeah. Yeah. I think it's again like social construct. Like, I know we play all that rules,

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we talking about all the social constructs. We kind of on a daily basis going through

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and then they become sometimes like social contracts and it's actually not contractual.

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You just want to play it differently and you find yourself, oh, because I did it a certain

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way. So I think all our sense is going back to seeing, hearing things. It is all part

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of it because.

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Of self, of others. Like I often feel like there is a game being played that I don't

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know the rules to and that maybe I should, you know, take things less or less seriously

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as a result. It's not a level playing field. Definitely not. So it's like, okay, if we

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view it like that, then maybe that's easier to play along if you realize that nothing

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is personal. Yeah.

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I always feel when I think like that way and I also feel like they don't know the game

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anyway. They're playing a game they don't even know. So it's actually more dangerous.

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It's kind of a really, it's kind of a tricky way to see it like that. But I think it's

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like what makes life.

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Cool.

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Life. When fuck makes life.

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Yeah, I think that's the thing. If there's a game being played, then like, can everyone

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follow some rules for a star? And if, because it feels like it's just like it's uneven on

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some level.

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If a game of life is the beginning.

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A game of life.

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Because it is.

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No one knows the rules.

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And who's setting the rules? Apparently, like the people in power, I'm not sure what they've

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signed up to win. You know, especially if we look at it on a deeper level of like, what

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power are you gaining when we're all living on the same planet?

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Yeah. So the power of art of course is to, it's social commentary in the sense.

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Yeah, there has to be another, essentially that is the role of an artist is to give another,

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is to give it a different aspect on it.

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Yeah. And also always you're looking from your own identity as well. And your identity

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is always political, you know, just like it, because you're part of a society and you're

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part of community and part of like, whatever you're part of is becoming, changing the meaning.

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So, you know, that's why I work at one level. It doesn't start with your political, but

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it is political because you can't separate certain parts of yourself. You are many things

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at once. I think it makes a lot of like, it's your main tools, but those are the things

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what you people think like, oh, I see something, I hear something like facts, but then there's

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a total part of it comes from unconscious. You hear as a whole personality, as a sensor

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thing, ready to waiting, like things coming from the unconscious and try to make sense

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of it and maybe try to put into work. Like I think it's constantly like different parts

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of us.

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So I'm working on every evolving concept, influx back and forth. Actually, hence the

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our work, the masks are part of that as well. There's a continuous, like a quantum persona

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that we constantly react with different people, different locations, different circumstances.

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We always change. Sometimes it did kind of helps us find our way in this game.

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Yeah, but I do think as an artist that you're often quite objective though. There's enough,

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you know, that you're outside of as well as in, you know, like that's the kind of, there

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is a distance. You're kind of trying to consciously investigate your subconscious.

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You can't do it with the persona. You can't do it with the mouth. You have to try to get

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them off. It's existential, it's vulnerable and it's also, you know, it's not. I don't

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think I've had a choice. I choose to be an artist. Well, no, I think it's for me, it's

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a compulsion to kind of try and investigate something that I don't understand. But I think

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it's a blessing and a curse because I sometimes just like to not be kind of trying to constantly

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probe something to find out like, could I just relax over here?

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Because the beauty of it is because you kind of questioned something unknown, but the problem

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with it is as well, because it is unknown, so you don't know it. So there is fear, so

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you're approaching with fear, but you have to let your fear, like the guard of mask,

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to play a little bit, to have to relax a little bit so the things will come and show themselves.

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But then also then bring it back to some form. No, and that's created to make it manifest

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like somehow whatever it's coming to turn it into something. Which again, sounds slightly

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grandiose, but I think it, you know, that's anyway, that's what it feels like. You're

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basically taking things that are invisible and bring them down into a visible medium

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of some form. Yeah. Can I go back to ask about how the partnership

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helps in that sense? Well, I think it's quicker. It's much quicker to be in collaboration because

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you can bounce ideas off each other rather than in my own practice, I can spend months,

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hours, years dragging myself around with something, whereas in this, we can be yes or no with

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it. And it's kinetics, there's an energy in it because you got, you know, and also somebody

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doing something else. Like I think what that's taught me about the idea of doing and being,

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because I'm always like, I kind of like to be doing something all the time. When I see

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him do something, I'm like, I should be doing something. Whereas actually it's about being

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able to relax and be like, okay, he's doing that. I can hold something else. I don't have

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to always be doing something. Yeah.

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And I think also when you're two people, you know, they trigger, like when you talk about

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ideas, whatever is like you feel the tension and the trigger, I think that's the right

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place to go. You find it so, you know, we almost like each other's radar. Like it's

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like this antenna, like something is coming to me and like there is almost like bouncing

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off and that bounce is very important. He can catch what I'm trying to say. Sometimes

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it's like that and that is actually very difficult to do on your own. And in my own practice,

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I can sometimes just not catch and then I'm like in some kind of whirlpool of unhelpful,

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really various. It's just also normal. Sometimes you don't hear what you say. I'm like, oh,

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did you just see what you said or did you just hear like, it's just like catching that

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moment. It's like that balancing that like very.

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I would say that with a between it's a high level of vigilance between in a positive aspect

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of like we're listening and seeing and looking who the other's doing, but in a healthy way.

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Yeah. You know, normally you would be looking like,

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what are you doing? Whereas this is much gentler and it's like more inquisitive.

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Yeah. I think the curiosity. I hate using that word. I think that word is overused.

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I think it's for me, it's like curious. For me, there's just connotations of that specific

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word and the way it's used in the wellness industry and.

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Right. Okay. I don't know that connotation. I don't know the line that you have in your

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work. I want to be you without you. I couldn't be me. I mean, there's this linking and threading

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kind of between. And I just, I wanted to bring that back to the analog kind of nature of

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your work, right? The actual kind of practical application of how you make what we see and

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how you divide the labour between you. It's yeah. And that conversation.

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It's quite, the labour is, I mean, it feels like it's quite natural. Yeah.

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You know, it's again, like a game. We often describe it as a game of exquisite corpse.

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It can pass between us and there's a trust. That's ultimately, that's the difference is

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there's a trust. I've been in a lot of collaborations where it's been uneven. This never feels like

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that. It feels like, oh, I think that's for me the key is the trust between us.

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I mean, how we go generally to create stuff is like beginning is like, you know, something

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comes maybe energetic from that. And then I take it and I use something, maybe something

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more contained, like a stitch or something on it. And then till we decide and it kind

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of comes that we both know, oh, this is it now. And then from that point, if you're going

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to do a series of them, then we can work from both, like whichever we can work on it together.

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And the tension that because there's two people working on it, wherever they're working on

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it, there's a thread that's pulled or loosened between us. So it's kind of quite subtle in

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that there's this, like you kind of know it's something's going to come, but you don't know

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what that is. And so there's a belief there as well that like, okay, which I think on

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your own, you can often lose belief in something, you sort of, the energy goes around it and

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it takes quite a lot to get back in. Whereas this is easier to kind of jump in and jump

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out, you know, it feels like again, like an expansion and a contraction of something.

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How about the aesthetic choices? I think we both have similar aesthetics on different

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ways. Like, you know, we're, that's intuitive. It's like, yes, no, yes, no.

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Yeah, we have very different aesthetics. What we're doing is it's own aesthetic. I think

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it's a really good amalgamation and like mixture and like all chemical, like they can't go

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back to me or to her. It becomes sinistry. And like, you know, like when you cook ingredients

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and it becomes something else, you know that it tastes good when you know it. I'm like,

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no, it's not for everyone, but it is for us. It's like, oh yeah, this is cooked perfect

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now. We know that woman and they are ready to other people.

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I mean, we have, it's rare that we have made some things that we just undercooked or we

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just can't bring. We made this piece, a map of brilliance. It's not brilliant. And we

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really tried, really tried hard on it. And it's like, also the title is ridiculous. I

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think that you have to accept when something is not working as well. There's when you've

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like, okay, let's give up. Also knowing when to give something up, like, okay, no. I think,

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yeah, there's some kind of binary of the whole thing.

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But yeah, I think it kind of evokes like emotions quite a lot. What the piece says generally,

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like it's the end. In yourself? I mean, I mean, in me as well, I know it's all, it's

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kind of when I see that. They're like children though, aren't they?

363
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Yeah, I don't want to. You're like, oh, look at that. It's a physicality

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to do that. An intention of physicality, right? In the stitching, the handmade. I think a

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lot of the comments that we got were like that people were emotional. Yeah, emotional.

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They were like, yeah, they could feel the work in there. Or like what had been, I don't

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know how to put it, you know, whatever their emotions were.

368
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Yeah, they were definitely like carriers of that emotion. It's going into like going back

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again, all these conversations. So starting from the manifesto, all the conversation,

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all these trials, all the games and back and forth, it's all actually embodied for that

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piece of work. So even you see a tiny piece of art, you have everything. It's all like

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they all keep. You mean like a fractal of the, it's like

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a holographic fractal of something. Exactly. I mean, like from the big installations

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even, we don't just give all like all this installation needs more work. I mean, we give

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the same attention to everything. I think it makes more sense when you see the

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work as an installation though for others. You know what I mean?

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You then get an insight into your journey, into the initial.

378
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Well then you can make the links. I think then you can make the links. Because the reason

379
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of making stuff is sometimes you don't have to explain things.

380
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Exactly. All of these are full of convenience. She's

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like, did all this, going to be quiet over here.

382
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Always my old inspirations, everything still came. I was connected, but then I think it

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comes to a level I think when you, I think probably Bert was the right person and the

384
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right moment. So it just kind of really evoke this, oh, I need to do this.

385
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Inspiration. Yeah, I think she's my inspiration. Definitely

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I'm an inspiring person. If she can't be an artist, I can't be as