Tamara: Welcome to this episode of Articulations by [00:01:00] ITER Arte. I am Tamara Chalabi, co founder of ITER Arte. In this series of episodes, we talk to artists about their individual stories and influences in order to dissect their practices and put their work in context. Today, we are joined by the painter Maryam Najd, who was born in Iran and currently resides in Belgium.

Her artistic style combines figurative and surreal portraiture with traditional techniques she learned in Iran. Her paintings bridge the gap between pure abstraction and thematic figuration, with reoccurring themes including the interplay between the corporal and spiritual, juxtaposing veiled femininity and nakedness.

Concealed Beauty and the Visible and Invisible. Najd positions herself within the European tradition of portraiture and still life with an Eastern perspective. Never far from her practice are the opposing forces of the conflict laden context of the Middle East and the Western ideal of freedom, as she fosters a critical discourse between these opposing worlds.

[00:02:00] 
Her empathetic portrayals of migrants and refugees transcend stereotypes emphasizing human dignity. Maryam Najd left the Tehran in 1991 at the age of 26 to study and live in Belgium. Her work has been featured internationally at institutions such as MHKA, museum of Contemporary Art, Antwerp and Speed Art Museum in Kentucky, USA. 

Tamara: Maryam, hi. It's very nice to have you here on the articulation podcast. Thank you for joining me on this very warm Sunday morning here in London. 

Maryam: Hi, Tamara. Thank you for inviting me. 

Tamara:  I wanted to first, discuss with you your recent work. Congratulations on and exhibiting the series, Seven Shades of Blood which is a series of seven paintings that are connected to the fight for women's rights that inspired the series.

Tamara: Is that right? 

Maryam: Yes. I mean, it was like few different elements that influenced my [00:03:00] idea for creating this series. And definitely one of the main reasons was the women's right, especially, with what happened in the last two years in Iran. So, for me, I was already working on another series, which was like Colorblind Society.

Maryam: And in that series, I was already coming up with the idea of race and censorship. Because for me, censorship in the last few years was very present in my work. Not only censorship by governments, but also self censorship, how we kind of cover our identity. So as I say, there were different layers that influenced this theory.

Maryam: And I wanted also with this especially point at, like, not necessarily race is only shown in [00:04:00] the facial features or skin color, but that is also a, give attention to the hair. As part of the party that is very important for each race.

Tamara: Are these the features that define women's experiences in your mind?

Maryam: Well as I say, because of censorship and safety protections and hiding identity and different reasons to keep the face away, And only focus on the hair. So in a way, I'm covering the face and erasing the identity of people and making the work to minimize the information, and to create an image that goes more to abstraction, both as content and as visual.

Maryam: So that's what I was trying to do with the. Seven Shades of Blood, Series. And of course, do this sort [00:05:00] of imagery when I was working on the series of painting about what happened in Iran with women life freedom.

Maryam: Because I also then created a series, I called it Nationwide Protest, and I used the hair of the victims that were killed in the protests. And by erasing the face, I wanted to take their direct identity away. And only left the hair on a wig stand so, as I say, I was trying just to minimize the information.

Maryam: But still, hair, since it's very also significant it represents our identity.

Tamara: It seems to be the main focus of the battleground, because it is all about covering the hair or not covering the hair. 

Maryam: Exactly. So it had two meanings as I say because the hair was really the subject of this protest.

Maryam: And at the same time for [00:06:00] me I was trying to bring the hair as one of the important part of the body that can reflect the race and nationalities. 

Tamara: By saying reflecting the nationality or the identity, you mean in terms of different types of hair like curly hair, straight hair, the color, the texture, et cetera. 

Tamara: Exactly. Is that what you mean? 

Maryam: That's what I mean. Because if you look at people all around the world from different nationality and different races, They have different hair structure.

Maryam: And in that way, I could show the nationalities without really showing a face. Even in hair, you can see the differences of the race and so on. 

Tamara: Of course, but going back to something you said a little bit earlier, which I find fascinating, is that it's quite a, I think, challenging task to try to communicate the censorship that you're talking about, whether it's societal, or innate or personal, you [00:07:00] must have spent a lot of time thinking about how to do that visually.

Tamara: I wanted you to tell us a little bit more about this because it's very interesting. 

Maryam: Well you know, for me, since many years ago, I started to paint, but I have to say most part of my career, I had a self censorship and the reason that I censored myself was because of my background, because of the society I lived.

Maryam: And even though when I left. I still carried the same kind of attitude mentally, emotionally, artistically. So I continued to censor myself and I even created a style that could help me for censorship. For example, if I was painting nudity, I would cover the body shapes and skin [00:08:00] by a layer of transparent color to give less information.

Maryam: Censorship is about giving less information, covering and hiding certain important subject or things that you don't want to directly express. Either you find symbols in art or in my case, I found symbols and I also technically found a way to censor. Only since 2018, I decided that I want to really work on this subject censorship and I want to dig deeper.

Maryam: Like how I would find my way without using the layer of the color and use the subject, the issue and express it in a very different way in my work, which I started with, for example, colorblind society. work on the subject of censorship, [00:09:00] influenced my style of painting as well.

Maryam: So I took that layer away. 

Tamara: Was there a turning point or a moment? I know you said 2018, but what made you decide to do that? What happened then? Or was it the progression that got you to that point where you're like, okay, enough, I want to tackle this directly 

Maryam: there was actually a moment, I heard the news about an Iranian actress that was coming to Europe and she was invited to participate in some sort of publicity. And in that publicity, she showed her body.

Maryam: It was like a nude advertisement. And in that way she got a very harsh reaction for, for doing so. From the government, from the Iranian government, but at the same time from the people. And this story made me think. About like, how come, you know, in some societies there is people are free enough, liberated [00:10:00] enough to decide how to address.

Maryam: Or how to come outside and show themselves and in some societies, they still make decisions for you. And the fact that it was such a contrast between, the presentation of your body from one society to another. I decided then. I'm going to stop with censoring myself and I want to, in a way take that cover away.

Maryam: I mean, not physically, but psychologically, of course. So that was my starting point. To go against myself censorship. 
Tamara: This is a good place to go back to your work, seven shades of blood and the fact that it's been inspired by one of the most beautiful and renowned works of poetry by Nizami.

Tamara: Yes. And it's it's called in Persian, Hafte Pekar, which means seven beauties and I just wanted to read a couple of [00:11:00] verses from it just to kind of give a little sense, even though it is very long and I'm sure there's a lot lost in translation, but this struck me as interesting:

Tamara: so until the mountain tops and rolling plains are covered in the gold of the morning scales and that Sunday light of the world has crept under the golden rays. like a hidden song. 

Tamara: And I know the story is of the poem is centered around the Sassanid ruler, Bahram Ghor, who falls in love with seven princesses from seven different geographies who are each ruled by a different planet.

Tamara: Is that right? Yes, that's right. And I know there's a very big reference to which also you, in your words, you say it represents the seven stages of love in the Sufi tradition and which are one, attraction, two, infatuation, three, love for reverence, five worship, six Obsession, and seven death. And the evolution from black, which is impurity to white, which is [00:12:00] purity. And this is for you as far as being one of the symbols of Eastern wisdom, it's also one of rare examples of early multiculturalism.

Tamara: Exactly. Which I think is, you know, wonderful sort of zoom in onto this, poem and also the way you've connected it to your body of work. So could you discuss this a little bit more in connection with the influence of this source of literature, and also why you use blood in the title?

Maryam: Yes. Well it was by coincidence that I came across , this book and the poem I had already in the past another project that I was influenced by another Persian writer and books. But this time it was by coincidence, but I still got very attracted to this coincidence because I was planning to work on the hair of women from different side of the world.

Maryam: And because I thought I can bring you know, different nationalities together to talk about [00:13:00] exactly like multicultural societies and and so on. So and when I when I saw this I thought this is a Such a, you know, old book, and it was still like gathering women from different parts of the world. And it was also a miniature there that was painted.

Maryam: The artist is unknown, but The work is very interesting and it also showed in that book, in that picture, like showing the women and showing the domes that they were standing in, in different colors. So it was very inspiring visually. 

Maryam: What I want to say, like for me, it was just like bringing all my ideas. Together and, and, and that's what I liked that something that was written many centuries ago, that the 12th century, right? Yes. That was like [00:14:00] giving me the idea to be inspired and at the same time, talk about my story that is about our current time.

Maryam: And therefore, I really also reflected the same about the colors, about creating this geometric forms around the women, which was also in the miniature, not exactly the same way. I mean, I Translated in my imagery and and I just had to call it seven shades of blood because for me, blood here means race because we all come like from different, I mean, actually in blood, that's not scientifically right, but we always say we, we come from this blood or that blood and, and, and in this way I could show the seven different races.

Maryam: That was also in the book, from India to Persia and in between and in between of course, the that was mentioned in the book [00:15:00] of the seven princesses of the seven princesses was like starting with India and then going to Rome and Kharazm, which is Central Asia. Slavic people, Maghreb, which is North Africa and China and Persia.

Maryam: So it was like a very good way to connect with the past and to talk about the present. And symbolically, it was very inspiring.
Tamara: It's also, I think it's beautiful because of the way that there's the astrological connection, with the planets as well.
Tamara: that's the kind of the more esoteric element. It's, it's such a rich 
body of work. 

Tamara: I think this goes beyond just this poem, how you are able to kind of negotiate in a sense, you're currently living in Belgium, where there's a very strong tradition of, painting and also surrealism.

Tamara: But at the same time I'm very interested in the way that you [00:16:00] have, traveled artistically through your practice. I mean you were trained by a master in miniatures in Tehran while studying at the University of Fine Arts. Is that right? And that negotiation and that journey that you've done.

Maryam: Well, I was of course, like probably many other artists since I was a child, I was like busy with drawing, painting, and I got the motivation also a lot. Back from my father, he was helping me, you know, to find my way, in a way, to the artistic world and he's the one who brought me to the academy in Tehran to, learn more professionally.

Maryam: So I went to the academy, but when I arrived there, there was also a department for miniature painting. And I immediately got interested to learn more because it was a certain style. Of course [00:17:00] it has a lot of fine way of painting. The colors are very special because it was very traditional.

Maryam: Everything was like through natural ingredients that we could learn. 

Tamara: You mean like dyes, using flowers, using natural dyes, 

Maryam: yes. I mean, of course there were also other techniques on wood and so on that I experienced to paint on wood but what I had my focus on and followed it was painting on paper. So this is how I started actually, like before my university, I went for three years to learn miniature under Maestro Moti, who was one of the most important maestros at that time in Iran. In Tehran, and he had his style and his school and many students were going to him to learn miniature painting. But [00:18:00] after three years I decided, I talked to him even, and I decided to leave and go further to study at the university because I felt like I can maybe find my way better to become more of an individual.

Maryam: in my art than because in miniature painting, we were following a certain style and rule, which was from our master. And I wanted to become more independent as an artist and create my own works. So I went to the university of Al Zahra, which was a university for actually women.

Tamara: And I think this was during the eighties. So it was during the, also the Iran Iraq war, which was a difficult time. 
Maryam: Exactly. And I started the university because after the revolution the art university [00:19:00] It was closed for some time and it was the first students that we were starting again to, to open the university back in a way.

Maryam: But it took five years due to the war because it was sometimes the university was closed because it was too dangerous. Being bombed in the whole city, that's why my education took a bit longer. But anyhow, I finished the University of Fine Arts in Tehran. And after that again, due to restrictions, I couldn't really learn how to paint the body and the portraits and so on.

Maryam: And for me it was always very interesting. when I was even at home trying to paint portraits or body. But if you don't see it in real it's I thought this is a lack for an artist not to know how to [00:20:00] paint 

Tamara: so what did you study? What was the actual curriculum? 

Maryam: Well, I mean, the main focus was on still life, on landscape, 

Tamara: It's still following a certain Beaux Art, approach to teaching.

Maryam: Exactly. Normally in every academy you have lessons for nude body and model painting and model drawing, which is nude. And we didn't have that in Iran. And that's why It encouraged me to leave because I thought I had the possibility because of my brother to come to Belgium.

Maryam: So he invited me to come and visit the academy here and I Was by accident on the right moment. It was entrance exams and I did the entrance exam and I passed and I could start to study here in Antwerp. 

Tamara: So let me ask you when you arrived or when you started to study. I'm curious [00:21:00] about sort of the other challenges or the difficulties as an artist coming from Iran within the new cultural environment, I mean, as a painter and also how people were responding to you.

Maryam: Well, as you said, it was not easy at all, because also when you live in another country. Especially in that time, because now because of internet and social media, we get a lot of information and we know more or less what is happening in the other side of the world. But in the nineties, beginning nineties, that was not the case.

Maryam: So I had some travels abroad, but not that many. And I didn't know how precisely my life would be if I would move to Antwerp. But when I came here, I was confronted with a total different story and different life that I was [00:22:00] imagining before. Yeah. You don't know what is to be homesick.

Maryam: You don't know what is to have no friends or have a problem with communication because of the language and even being questioned because then at that time when I came here it was quite difficult the relationship between my country and other parts of the world. So when you would tell your nationality that you are Iranian people would look at you with a long face because you were not welcome.

Maryam: In many cases. So this kind of confrontation. I was all the time being criticized. You come with a very different view, and then you get confronted with this people's judgments about your culture, about your background, and about even your art, about many things.

Tamara: Tell me more about the art parts. 

Maryam: For [00:23:00] example when I started at the academy, my education in Iran was not enough for here. They said the Iranian education doesn't have the same qualification for here.

Maryam: So, and then I had to start from the beginning and every time I painted something, they criticized that I don't live in Iran anymore. And I have to change my style of painting and become more aware of the European style. And therefore I really had to change everything like what I have learned in Iran was not useful.

Maryam: And somehow it was not useful to them. So it wasn't interesting to them. It's not that it wasn't useful. I mean, that was the judgment, right? But I was also very young at that time and no experience. If this would happen now to me, I would react in a very different way, not only to the outside world, but [00:24:00] also within me in a very different way.

Maryam: You know when you are so young and unexperienced and you come from a different country, which feels already in a more difficult, lower position in the society, then you start to hesitate more. You start to question yourself and, and all these doubts makes you insecure. And it reflects in every aspect, not only in your personal aspect, but also in your creative aspect.

Maryam: And that's what happened to me in that time. 

Tamara: So in fact ,even though part of the reason to have left Your country was in search of freedom of a greater artistic freedom, let's say. But did you feel free? Because you, you're describing to me new barriers.

Maryam: Exactly. And new issues. So how did, I mean, this must have been so difficult to negotiate as an artist, as well as a human being. [00:25:00] That's it. And that's what I felt because exactly as what you said, I left in the search for freedom, in the search for, you know, a kind of also freedom in my education, in like the way that I wanted to grow as an artist.

Maryam: But I was not aware that how many other obstacles would come in front of me to go through this road. And this is the difficult thing that sometimes we don't realize when we leave our own home. Roots or our own country because then there are other problems and issues that comes along and that you have to deal with those things.

Maryam: And even though I had my freedom, because of the fact that I was under the pressure of the new society to accept my existence I really had to find [00:26:00] myself back again and it took some time to find yourself and trust yourself and to combine, the roots and beliefs.

Tamara: Your art is the story of your life, and that process where you could finally, combine the figurative and the abstract, or, what you came with, your heritage and your training as an artist, also with the experience of miniature painting and so on, coming from Iran.

Tamara: And also. the painting that you learned in Belgium. What was that process?

Maryam: I came from a very figurative background. I mean, not only figurative, also traditional in painting. I mean, and when I arrived here and after a while, of course, I started to know more and more about Western, European, contemporary so many, many information was there and I [00:27:00] was like trying to find out what is the best for me.

Maryam: Because on one hand, I really like realistic figurative work, but on the other hand, I'm also very much, I mean, after I came here, I learned about minimal art, about abstract art, and especially painting. And both of them was interesting for me. I couldn't you know, leave the figuration aside and start to be an abstract artist.

Maryam: But at the same time, I liked how abstract art was helping me to also show another part of myself and which part was that? I mean, do you describe it? Yeah. I mean abstract. When I make abstract works I think I touch more the emotional side that is like colors, structure, also even the attitude and the physical attitude when you create abstract painting, [00:28:00] especially most of the time, my abstract paintings are larger scale.

Maryam: So you need to have a very different attitude when you approach it, when you Physically get involved in the painting process. And in that way, I could really feel that I need both. I need this very fine, fragile way of painting figurative. To take your time and to be very precise and into the details. And on the other hand, I could also go in a very physical active form of working with my abstract paintings. So the two was combining a form that was very natural to me to do both. 

Tamara: But, that journey to it becoming natural and, [00:29:00] developing that, if you like updated Maryam language, visual language took the time that it did, of course, because of all the challenges you were describing and the things you are learning. There's so much in terms of messages, symbolism, et cetera. I mean, with your colorblind series which is, incredible because it's, as far as I understand it's, when you learned about two women who were tragically displayed in a human zoo in Belgium.

Tamara: Yes. You started researching and making it and, for example, the one painting that I love is woman with peony flower, which is a woman that's taking off her skin with a mask. But then also there's a connection with a strong, feminine, Element -- flowers?

Tamara: I mean, flowers are, are very closely identified with women or femininity. They are a metaphor. 

Maryam: As you said in my work there are so many different elements that comes together. One abstract [00:30:00] figurative, there is the other one that is about symbolism and symbols.

Maryam: There is another part which is now mostly in the last three, four years that is there that is surrealism, a touch of surrealism, not extreme, but in that way I can just explain what I want to say because sometimes in the past. I felt painting, it's a little bit limiting me to tell the story in the way I wanted.

Maryam: And now more and more by bringing all in one image, I'm trying to get as much as possible the narrative and the story more complete. Which is still sometimes not possible, but I don't mind to leave it for open interpretation of people, you know, not always it has to be completely set or completely painted, but I can always bring suggestions of [00:31:00] my ideas and hopefully there would be, a way to express.

Maryam: What you want to say, or in this moment that you can just like talk and have a conversation with people and tell what you were trying to say. So with this peony woman with peony flower, it's also again, like many different layers there. And I started with colorblind society again, because of censorship.

Maryam: And I came across the stories of Otabenga, yeah because these stories were hardly said. I mean, in a way for me, it was censored. The story of human zoo I mean, it's not so long ago, that we had it here in Belgium, in Tervuren, a human zoo in the 1950s.

Tamara: That late ! 

Maryam: I was like, how, how is possible that such a short time, [00:32:00] everybody forgets about this part of the history is very dark and nobody talks about it. And to me, this is censorship. And that's why. Because of the subject that I was trying to open up subjects that are censored.

Maryam: I opened up the story of slaves and these people that they were taken, but then translated to our current time, because to me, okay, that was an obvious slavery. But if I want to compare it to current time, to what is happening around us, then I would question, is this slavery ended? And there should be some answers to this, which I think it's not ended.

Maryam: And therefore, I wanted to show this in all the images that I [00:33:00] painted. Women and men that they are wearing the torture instruments that they were used in the Middle Ages for slaves or for people that they had to be punished by the governments. And I put it on modern looking people, very fashionable people and to show like in our time.

Maryam: Although. We do have a look of civilized people, but I'm still questioning if us as civilized people are slaves of our time or not. And this is basically what I tried with colorblind society to express. 

Tamara: And what about the flowers? Because you've also used you mean they're big symbol in your works in general.

Tamara: And is that a, would you say a carry on from the miniature painting? 

Maryam: Yeah, technically, definitely. It's a carry on of [00:34:00] miniature painting, but conceptually content wise. It's because again, it's one of the projects that I use national symbols to express my idea about. nationality and nationalism and racism and how borders are creating in a way, the distance between the people.

Maryam: By creating this project, which was called Botanic National Amalgamation Project, I wanted to bring the, I mean, it's very symbolic, so it would not exist in the reality. I'm very aware of that, but in my work, I wanted to bring unity to the countries by their national flowers.

Maryam: And there comes the importance of flowers in my work, because since I made this project, flowers became also every now and then. in other figurative paintings.

Tamara: Is it because [00:35:00] of their unifying or the fact that, you know, we all agree universally that they are a beautiful thing, is it to do with beauty?

Maryam: Beauty is peaceful, but I just want to also show even like the woman with the peony that it looks as peaceful as Wearing a flower, but actually the, the action that she's peeling off her skin. It's quite harsh because sometimes I want to say we are not choosing our nationality and we are not choosing which race we are.

Maryam: So sometimes you want to take your skin and just become like the others. We cannot do this, of course, and we have to always carry our nationality and background, even if it's stopping you to live a peaceful life, but we cannot do anything for it because we are being judged, we are being, we are being put in a certain category we get a certain title [00:36:00] because of our race or our nationality and that's what I don't agree with.

Tamara: The flower, I mean even though a symbol of peace is also  quite revolutionary in your case because it's trying to question this peace, but also to, emphasize it. It's got a double meaning.

Maryam: Totally. Yes, it has a double meaning because even countries that are so nationalistic, they choose a national flower. And sometimes when you read about it, the reasons they have chosen the national flower is again, so nationalistic and patriotic. And I'm like, but even such a peaceful living, which is a flower, it becomes aggressive in a way.

Maryam: Because it takes a different meaning and takes a different form. So that's why I say in my work, there is a lot of layers and symbolism that it helps me to express my ideas [00:37:00] about our societies and the issues we have. And that's how I approach to talk peacefully in a way and bring our social political issues in two dimensional paintings.

Tamara: Moving on you mentioned that you are interested to a certain extent in surrealism and you've begun to explore a little bit more about that. And you mentioned before that we can expect a new project from you soon.

Tamara: You also mentioned the connection with surrealism and the art and liberty movement in Cairo and Egyptian surrealism. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you have in mind and what kind of narratives you want to explore and will they continue to be woman focused? 

Maryam: Yes. Censorship is very important for me because censorship is about a lot of things in the societies I want to continue to do research but [00:38:00] especially about movements or artists that in the last century have been censored.

Maryam: And to give again, a focus on more in the Middle East because as obvious reasons in the Middle East, there is more censorship than other parts of the world. And of course, when I was going through my research, I came across the movement in Egypt, I mean, that was before the war, against the Nazis, and in Cairo, the artists did a manifesto against this movement of Nazis, of degenerate art ,and it was called "Long Live Degenerate Art." 

Maryam: Anyhow, I wanted also to work around the artists that have been censored. I also think that censorship would not [00:39:00] necessarily be destructive for creating art. Sometimes it can even be more constructive because artists, will find a way to express their ideas in a layered and deeper way. They will use symbolism or they will use their own personal languages to create. And this is what interests me to find out about those elements.

Maryam: That are used in censored art and I want to understand it and translate it in my own imagery  so this is my plan for the next coming years. I'm still in the process of research and so on, and I will see how I'm going to translate that in my work.

Maryam: But as a concept, this is what I would like to do.

Tamara: Maryam, it's a great project. It's also very ambitious. Because there's probably endless [00:40:00] things to explore within it. 

Maryam: I think so. Yeah it's definitely gonna take a long time and in a way, probably that's what I like. That I would be able to create and that, because the way I approach more and more to paint is research and making a series of works, to just continue creating and to be active as an artist.

Tamara: Well, I wish you the best of luck. And I'm really looking forward to seeing this progression of new works. Thank you very much. Maryam 

Maryam: Thank you. 

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