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I'll come to a new episode of Arteculations.

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I am Tamara Chalabi, co-founder of Iterarte, and with me today is the artist and poet Paolo

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Colombo from Athens, Greece.

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I will be discussing with Paolo his upcoming exhibition at Burt Gallery in Los Angeles

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that takes mosaics as its subject, meticulously created in watercolours using Paolo's singular

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technique of dots and squares, as he recalls newses from antiquity.

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And in this exhibition is one work that is a variations collaboration with Itterarte,

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entitled After Gold.

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It is a work of embroidery using an elaborate technique from the Indian Himalayas.

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Embroidery is an art form that Paolo especially loves and refers to as humble, an adjective

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he often uses to also describe his own work.

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Paolo Colombo was born in 1949 in Turin, Italy.

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He lives and works in Athens, Greece.

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He received a degree in languages and literature from the University of Rome in 1975, but the

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formative years of his painting and drawing practice were self-taught.

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In 1977, Colombo was the first European artist to exhibit at PS1 New York.

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From 1986, he worked as a curator in museums across the United States, Switzerland, Italy,

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Greece and Turkey.

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After a 25-year hiatus, Colombo took up his personal work as an artist again, coinciding

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with a move to Greece.

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His work has since been exhibited at several international galleries and international

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fairs.

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Paolo, thank you so much for joining me today to discuss your new mosaic project, which

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is very exciting and one that I find extremely beautiful.

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It's a true pleasure to be talking to you and looking forward to your participation.

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Yes, and I'm very happy, like the most days, which is the latest expansion of my work.

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Paolo, can I start by asking you why you started painting, why you wanted to become a painter

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all those years ago?

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Yes, definitely.

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The beginning was sudden and unexpected.

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I just turned 12 years old and I was actually sent to boarding school in a mountain in Switzerland.

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And all that was there was a boarding school in a farmhouse and for 20 kilometers, no other

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living human being other than cows.

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And the 200 boys that were in school, it was a very small class, had three children.

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The other two were older than I was, so it was almost like in a class.

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The teacher who looked at me like she'd done that, but turned out she was 20, so only about

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eight years older than I was.

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I sure as day said we should buy a pad of watercolor paper and gouache by Carondage,

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paintbrush and maybe two paintbrushes, pencils, eraser.

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And then we went to the first class and it's all just to find the center of the page, which

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was the intellectual thing to do, almost conceptual.

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And then the next class, he came with a book and he said, please seek the dictation.

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And the book was Tonia Clark, by Thomas Mann.

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And he read four lines in which Tonia Clark, who's already a grown man, is on a beach in

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Northern Germany and looking up the North Sea, a windy day, a gray day, he's leaning

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on a boat on the shore and across the sand, far away on the beach, he sees two shakers

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and he recognizes the two nose of his son, Hans Havisen, the beautiful blue-eyed, white

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young man, and Inge Håne, the beautiful blue-eyed blonde young man.

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And he sees him kissing from the distance.

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And then the teacher whose name is Innocente Yannis, says, okay, now illustrate it.

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And I knew then and there that that's what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

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We kept on having classes with him and he would read a bit of a small section of a novel

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and ask us to illustrate it, give us advice on how to paint grass or how to paint trees.

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And it's just effective.

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And tell me, he spoke to you in which language?

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He read these books and these verses in Italian.

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It was all in Italian, even though I was in the German part of Switzerland.

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But the school had a small Italian section of about 35 students.

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We were only three in my class.

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So it was very, very reduced and full immersion with the teacher.

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Strangely, we kept in touch with Innocente.

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Yeah, that's my teacher.

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And still today I send him invitations and I send him images of my work.

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How lovely.

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And do you think this was the reason that connected in your mind the text and image?

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Because it's very present in your work.

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I ended up studying literature, so texts in Innocent.

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Likewise, as you know, I occasionally write.

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So it's probably the moment, yes.

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And it's the moment in which it came together and gave me like an infinite pleasure and

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inspiration.

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And I remember looking outside at the trees from the classroom and thinking while I was

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doing the paint.

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Yeah, I think that really was the moment in which I had the first experience of absolute

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pleasure and to end my life.

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Would you say he was the greatest artistic influence on you?

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Really?

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Can you share a few?

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I love lots of things.

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I love classical art, as you know, I like the early mosaics, I like Byzantine art.

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And I feel very much at home in a world without the shared dimension.

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I like an American 19th century painter called Martin Johnson Heade who painted orchids in

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the Amazon.

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I also like that person, I love Kulak and Dinsky, certainly anything geometric.

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And then, when I was about 21, I had this chance to do the Italian sculptures, they

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was Fausto Medorti.

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You mentioned him before.

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We had long talks, you see, and in fact, he wrote the introduction to my first show in

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the Castle Up, which was like a complete honor because on top of that, he would be a great,

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great artist.

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He was a great writer and he wrote beautiful types of art.

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So he certainly was an interest, but there might have been so many more, but I don't

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even know if there were even a hero.

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But would you say, was it a specific decade that especially influenced you growing up?

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I mean, I know you were born in Torino, even though you went to school in Switzerland.

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Was there a particular kind of minimalism or this pitura anal dica or was that?

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It was not part of the artistic discussion until I was about 25.

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In the meantime, I studied literature, there's a wonderful poem by Joseph Harris, who really

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was an incredible artist, in which he says, and let me paraphrase him, nowadays, so much

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gold around the art and around the words that can be the grace to speak simply.

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And that was like a great lesson for me.

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Yeah, there have been different moments.

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I came to Greece, it was my first trip to paint and seeing the light, the people, the

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energy, the music from somebody who has spent eight years on top of that.

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It was, yes, one of those moments of completed recognition of who you are.

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And it happened a few times, the first time I came to Greece, the first time I went to

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Greece, there have been moments like that.

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There is a wonderful line in P.S.

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Eliot, who also was a complete revelation, started him as part of my industry, as you

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could call it.

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And I think Bill Banks says, from the John Quartet, says, in memory only, reconsidered

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passion, which again made me think of the role of memory in all that we do.

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And all that we feel, of course.

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Yeah, there are moments that really opened the doors, as Cicely says, chancastic, she

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lines.

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So, finding these moments, I was blessed by a number of other people.

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Tell me, when you are working, when you're painting and you're maybe trying to find

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that moment again, whenever you start painting, you are in the middle of the work.

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Where do you go?

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Where does your mind go?

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Let me see.

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I actually never tried to find this moment, because I know they have some new expectations.

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When I paint, I just wish to be light when I step.

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I listen to things, I listen to music, I listen to books, audio books, but I also listen to

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silence, but mostly I think of other paintings that I want to paint.

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And as my paintings take so long to make, by the time I finished painting, I saw the

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radio fire of the paintings today.

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And I tried, I decided that surely they're not good, I'm not going to make them.

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So you never have an artist block situation?

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No, never.

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Never had it.

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So lucky.

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I always felt I had so much to say, and the problem was not having enough time to say.

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And sometimes you postpone things and then it's too late even to say it, I should slow

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it.

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And I like silence, and I think about new paintings, but I also like music and more,

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and books.

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I wanted to talk to you about your new project, or rather new body of work that's been very

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focused on mosaics.

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Why mosaics?

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So I'm spending hours here, it's very long work to make.

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Now I'm working on a piece with small mosaic pieces, as if they were stones.

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I tend to mimic these watercolors, mosaics that are made of stones, not of glass.

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So we tend to be of the older Greek and Roman tradition and pre-Christian tradition of mosaics

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with glass.

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So, Paolo, one thing that is really interesting is how often mosaics are referred to as eternal

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pictures, because that technique that was developed all those millennia ago actually

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hasn't really changed very much in its application.

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And I'm really interested in the way that you are kind of almost transferring that technique

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while still very much imitating it, as you say, but almost carrying it to yet another

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medium.

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And I'm wondering what that means to you, or how do you see the mosaic visually when

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you see it on paper versus on stone?

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Well, first of all, I think what's interesting to me is that it's not a mosaic, it's a picture

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of a mosaic.

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It's a representation of a mosaic.

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So you are going to reach immediately a second degree in which the mosaic is a fiction versus

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a mosaic, even though I paint each individual tessera, but it is the portrait of a mosaic.

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So in that sense, the transferring to another medium makes it, at least to me, more significant

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because it creates on one side a distance and on the other side a proximity with it,

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because it's right there.

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I mean, I have these mosaics in my hands.

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I'm actually touching them as I make them, not in a different way than when the real

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mosaic people, mosaic makers, made them.

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What is uncanny to me is one broke and square tessera of mosaics of all different colors

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and how I'm trying to imagine what the palette of a mosaic maker was to be with different

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colors, different gradations.

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So even the logistics of it must have been quite amazing.

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On top of that, the glue, which was some sort of cement that you put underneath the petals,

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was to be given for the day in which you put them in because it dried afterward.

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I imagine the mosaics is not only what you see, therefore a very flat piece of stone,

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but they're slown, they slightly have more body enough to penetrate into the sword.

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Most mosaics were done with a larger extent on the floor.

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Tell me, Paolo, you have said you're very concerned about your art being sober and

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austere and somehow the connection with the dot and the square and what that ascribes

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to sort of the meaning of things in terms of symbolic and divine.

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Obviously, the square here is also connected to the mosaic and I'm just curious about

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that progression that you have had with your work.

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Yeah, totally.

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I think that's where my initial work, which was literally based on dots and small painted

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squares and lines, the national progression piece in my case was to come to full-fledged

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mosaics.

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And now, actually, my point of view is slightly changing because the big part of the show

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in Los Angeles is mosaics, which are paintings that are supposed to be upright.

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And what you see is the detail of a mosaic through a fabric which is also painted against

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imitation of mosaics, imitation of fabric and the illusion that the fabric is torn and

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you can see the mosaic underneath the fabric.

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Right now, I'm working on a mosaic which is a floor piece.

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And what colors are you using?

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Just describe to me.

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Well, lots of…

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I can't see it right now, but…

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Because white stone was a prevalent stone in the Roman mosaics and it is a mosaic that's

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inspired from the unswept floors mosaic of ancient Rome, which was for, I apologize,

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mosaics of messes of people at the table who dropped the shells of sea urchins and the

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whole fish on the floor.

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You know, I mean, the Romans did not have the table manners that we have today.

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But you're obviously talking about a location that is near the sea.

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It's near the sea.

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Not too far anyway, because the crustaceans and sea urchins and squid deteriorate very

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fast without refrigeration.

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And so near the sea.

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And I actually was fascinated by…

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But these mosaics had depicted various pleasures.

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The seashells.

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You mean gastronomy now.

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Can you see it?

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Yes, beautiful.

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Anyway, this is the idea.

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I'm fascinated by this interest for past pleasures and also the tom-pleur characteristic of a

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shack that it's supposed to be a very clean mosaic floor that represents filth.

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And so the idea is that these floor mosaics, the Russian hero, are not rectangular mosaics

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paintings like my paintings are.

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But they actually have a shape of puddles.

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When it rains, I go around and look at the shape and dimensions of puddles.

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And it's like a mosaic puddle that is very flat on the floor, kept very flat on the floor

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by a very thick and heavy glass, about one centimeter.

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And this one is the size of a large puddle.

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And it is as if underneath a floor you would scratch and find a mosaic from the previous

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floor.

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So it's like the idea is to make these mosaic puddles that are literally floor pieces and

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not wall pieces.

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But tell me, you said that you're quite interested in having or in depicting these past pleasures

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that were themselves depicted in these mosaics, such as a feast or the joy of food or a celebration

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or a moment.

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On the one hand, these moments are very fleeting and yet what's left is meant to be eternal.

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And where do your paintings fit in this?

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Well, the issue of time is very much embedded in my work.

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It takes time to make them and basically 33 seconds to see them.

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The idea is that I try to capture the feeling of fleeting as much as possible, whether it

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is in a verse, in a poetic verse, whether it is in my paintings, which are made of text.

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And at first, in the 70s, I made the text.

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It was basically done by a compression of dots on a very thickly dotted page as if it

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were written in sand or appearing in fog and it could disappear the exact next second.

235
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So this idea of something that is fleeting and therefore even more meaningful to us is

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very much… it connects at least with what I've been doing.

237
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Yeah, I'd like to think that the time is not actual.

238
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It's more like a spiral.

239
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But therefore, I'm always trying to think when I see ideas or concepts which I had from

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the beginning still re-appearing and this is just an idea of something that's very

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fleeting.

242
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And even the shape of a puddle also indicates that it is as fleeting as a puddle.

243
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Right, right.

244
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Well, I think quantum physicists would agree about the non-linearity or the non-unidirectional

245
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relationship with time or the meaning of time, so to speak.

246
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:49,040
Can you just walk us through this exhibition that you're having which is essentially of

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mosaics but I think predominantly of characters, of goddesses, of gods, of classical figures.

248
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Can you introduce us to your crew?

249
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You know, faces that I like, that I respond to, that move me.

250
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So they may not be major gods or goddesses but I like to think they may be nymphs or

251
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nereids or yes.

252
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:19,440
Well, I haven't made a try-telling yet but maybe, you know, the idea is minor gods.

253
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Think of them.

254
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Less creatures, still much higher than us.

255
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And what are their names?

256
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They all have a name.

257
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When I pay, it's...

258
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,520
Yeah, I like the idea of anonymity.

259
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:38,840
They have a minor god that is anonymous and really today we have no idea.

260
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Nymphs were not immortals.

261
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But nymphs just lived very, very, very, very long time.

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And I don't know if they changed or tried and I don't know if they became something

263
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less than a handsome young man or...

264
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,600
You mean that they had eternal youth?

265
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Yeah.

266
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I'm not sure they had eternal youth.

267
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I think at one point they aged.

268
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According to the legend, they aged very slowly.

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And what is it that when you are capturing a nymph, let's say, what is it, I mean, you're

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inspired by this repertoire of images across time and archaeology, but at the same time,

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what is it that you're interested in depicting in terms of their faces?

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Because often it's a portrait.

273
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It's not necessarily the full body.

274
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It's a portrait because they're in post and it's no more to be too literal.

275
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You know, it's like face disappearing through a cane of fabric.

276
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So not really about the whole body, the tail in the fabric and usually at face level.

277
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To be an arm could be a hand.

278
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Gosh, if I think about it, nymphs had a horrible life.

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They were the desire of ardent gods and they tried to run away most of the time.

280
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And the lucky one got changed into a suit, a syringe, for example, or into a daphnia.

281
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Yes, and they had what appears to be a fairly different life in spite of the fact that they

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live in Arcadia.

283
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Right.

284
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And do you ever, I mean, do you have a favorite amongst your mosaics?

285
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I don't like to sell them.

286
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I don't like to give them away.

287
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The only thing is to make doubles.

288
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Right.

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And so speaking of doubles, I think it's probably a good moment to explore the sort of collaboration

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that we're doing with these beautiful embroideries.

291
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,880
Let me say something.

292
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That this is not a first collaboration.

293
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We collaborated as curators.

294
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Important because I don't think I would ever have asked anybody else to collaborate the

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way we are if I didn't have absolute trust in your eye and in the grace to which you

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approach art.

297
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Thank you, Paolo.

298
00:22:58,220 --> 00:23:02,880
Yeah, don't have a bad character, but I have a character.

299
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Sometimes it's not too easy.

300
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That intimacy, that actual process in terms of that information to yet another medium,

301
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because we, especially when we have been working on the mosaic variations, I mean, it's such

302
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an incredible further translation.

303
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,600
There is a constant evolution that's fascinating.

304
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:32,120
Well, it's a big sad worry because I did embroider a few watercolors in the seventies, like in

305
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72.

306
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:37,200
Embroider a column on a watercolor.

307
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And I really didn't know how to go about it.

308
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:44,000
So I tried to buy the thinnest needle, but the watercolor paint was fake.

309
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It was just like I was learning by trial and error.

310
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Color would maintain on the thread anyway, but I did try.

311
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And then the idea came because of the nature of things here.

312
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You just lose or end up not knowing where your work is, but you have photographs.

313
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And I think we thought together the idea of recreating this work that was gone in the

314
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form of embroidery, which is probably how many women maintained their memories embroidering

315
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from sheets.

316
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I thought this would really fit the project.

317
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And I felt a bit uneasy because the first time I'm doing something, which I'm not doing

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myself, my head.

319
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So yeah, the drought had to be infinite.

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I mean, I find it so exciting because I think there is almost another ethereal nature to

321
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these embroideries.

322
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,320
They're so delicate.

323
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,320
And your work, it is so delicate to begin with.

324
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And yet this further iteration is even, I mean, it has a very almost lofty quality about

325
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it.

326
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,760
There's precious because the workmanship is even more.

327
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,560
I think they're done with love.

328
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,920
Fantastic, fantastic people.

329
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,080
They're done with love and you can see it.

330
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,040
I hope they enjoy doing it.

331
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:17,120
I hope they get something out of doing it in terms of participating to make something

332
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be, which until it was done, I had no idea it could turn out this way.

333
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:24,240
Yeah.

334
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,160
But what does it, I mean, how do you relate to this work that is very much yours, but

335
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:34,320
not made by you, but also made by hand, also made painstakingly like your work is made

336
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,160
very laboriously and slowly?

337
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,160
I think it's very similar the way they work in a very similar way to when I work.

338
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,440
So I would say yes, I love it.

339
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,720
And I think it's a great new iteration.

340
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,400
So I'm extremely happy with it.

341
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:59,400
Now the try is to introduce one in an exhibition of paintings.

342
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:05,960
By the way, all the paint is a watercolor in washes, which is all I use my whole life.

343
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:11,800
I think it's a super presence within a show and probably an unexpected one.

344
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:17,720
And the first time I'm doing this, so we'll see soon in a week.

345
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:18,720
What?

346
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,960
Shall we talk about color?

347
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:21,960
About color.

348
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:22,960
We didn't talk about color.

349
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:29,240
Well, listen, color is very important because I only made watercolors and drawings, but

350
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,800
even the drawings, I switch to colored pencils right away.

351
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,740
I am not a...

352
00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:38,760
What are the colors that you find most?

353
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,480
They change every time.

354
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,600
You know, like with the days, some days I'm in love with red and some days I'm in love

355
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:47,600
with blue.

356
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,200
Some days I'm in love with the name of a color.

357
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:59,240
It's a fantastic color, which is composed of magentas and indigos, which coming together,

358
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,480
it becomes like a very, very dark blue.

359
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:07,960
Yeah, you can feel that there is a heat of the magenta.

360
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,760
It's from a company where I buy my colors.

361
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:11,760
It's called Daniel Smith.

362
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:12,760
What's the color called?

363
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:13,760
What's in...

364
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,760
Okay, the color is called Moonglow.

365
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:17,760
Moonglow?

366
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:18,760
Yeah.

367
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,040
I used it in many paintings in particular.

368
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,040
How beautiful!

369
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,040
I love to open the two.

370
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:31,080
But do you think going back to mosaics, does it limit your choice of color?

371
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:37,000
Of course, trying to mimic mosaics which are made with stones, yes, pretty much the color

372
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,120
of stones a billion has.

373
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:44,240
Because I think these mosaics at one point, they received water, they were wax, but anyway

374
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,560
to make the color stronger.

375
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:47,840
But yeah, there's lots of...

376
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,800
There's gray, there's brown, there is...

377
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,080
Yeah, and occasionally some purple.

378
00:27:54,080 --> 00:28:03,080
I imagine very little because the pair is a very precious stone, and blue, and love

379
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,080
color.

380
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,600
I think I could not work with that color.

381
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,600
I look forward to seeing a painting of yours that will be an ode to Moonglow.

382
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,080
Thanks to you.

383
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,280
Now it's going to be in the works.

384
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:16,280
Great.

385
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:17,840
Well, Paolo, listen, good luck with the show.

386
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,080
I'm very excited to see the responses to your beautiful mosaics.

387
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,080
Thank you so much.

388
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,080
Thank you for joining us and our collaboration.

389
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,160
I'm going to leave you to finish this work because you need it for the show.

390
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,080
Yeah, it will be in touch very soon.

391
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,080
Ciao.

392
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,080
Ciao.

393
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:55,080
Ciao ciao ciao.