Hello and welcome to Education Nation, a new
podcast for 2026, brought to you by the Irish
Catholic. I'm Nicky Cuddihy, and I've lined up
a host of fascinating guests who have intriguing
stories to tell about their own career journeys
and their role within the education system. As
we hear their stories, We hope that the podcast
will help us develop a better understanding of
the complexity and the richness and the diversity
that make our education system so unique and
our schools and teachers so highly valued. I've
deliberately drawn our guests from every different
nook and cranny of the system, from former colleagues
among principals and teachers, patrons, leaders
of Catholic trusts, religious, thought leaders
and researchers, those who provide training,
support, and leadership in Catholic education,
and others who may not share our sense of mission,
and who can challenge us with different and even
opposing views of our education nation. Joining
me today is Eilis Humphries, someone with an
unrivaled CV, we might say, and track record
as a servant and leader in Irish education. Eilis,
thank you for joining us. You're welcome. I think
you're officially retired. Yes, I am officially
retired since September, so it's still a bit
of a novelty. A bit of a novelty. But I'm not
quite at the... pipe and slippers stage yet.
Oh, good. A lot of people will be glad to hear
that. Your last role, just explain that to me,
Chief Executive Officer of... The APTCS, the
Association of Patrons and Trustees of Catholic
Schools. And this is where I've been for the
last four years. And it was an organisation,
it is an organisation, relatively new organisation
that was set up to bring together the various
patrons, particularly at second level at the
moment. So the various patron bodies, the congregations,
the bishops and those patrons of lay schools.
OK, wonderful. Thanks, Eilidh. I'm going to.
ask you a few very general questions and we'll
see where the conversation takes us. In terms
of your career in education, where did that all
start? And as a teacher, what did you train in?
OK, well, I think it probably started at home.
My father was a teacher and education was highly
valued at home. So I went to local schools. I
was brought up in Terranure in Dublin and went
to presentation Terranure primary and Loretto
Beaufort second level. And I loved school. I
loved everything to do with people, even throughout
my summer jobs and stuff for working with people
rather than working in offices or shops or whatever.
And so I suppose my my career in education started
with that and the idea of wanting to be working
with people rather than working in an office.
And so I went to college down to Limerick. I
was very lucky, actually, to get in to do PE
and music, which is a very unusual combination.
Yeah, not offered anymore. Not enough people
were taking music as a second subject. So they
stopped it after my year. And was this in Talmond?
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What's now UL, of course. Yeah.
But very enjoyable. It was quite a small college
in those days, but I loved the PE. There was
great camaraderie, a great sense of vibrancy.
And it was a specific teacher training course.
You know, it wasn't, it was a concurrent model.
The concurrent model. Rather than the... So a
four -year degree at that time, was it? Four
-year degree. Yeah. Okay. With teaching practice
thrown in every year. What was your sport, or
what were your sports, or were you into anything
else? In particular, I started with hockey, but
I graduated... to netball as well. I played netball
for Ireland. You did not. Not many people know
that, I guess. Wow. Well, basically, they were
very short. There weren't very many people playing
netball. Not to none. There's not too many short
people playing netball. But anyway, it was good
fun. Very good. Yeah, I loved it. And music -wise,
did you have an instrument in particular? I played
the piano, yes. And I had this lovely lecturer,
Dr. Rush, who was the organist up in the Redemptus
in Limerick. Oh, yes, I know it well. Yeah, a
wonderful man. He was brought over from Storbrook.
Hill for the college when the college opened
first because we were my cohort was the fourth
year So now you can actually work at my age.
Well, we're not going to do that, but I'm really
fascinated by that as a combination of PE and
music. Yes, good. How many were in your group?
You see, there was only three people in my class
went to do music. And then by the end of first
year, two of them had dropped out. So I ended
up joining in with the year ahead of me because
there were three in that group and one in the
year above that. So we ended up in my fourth
year in college, I was the only one studying
music. So obviously that wasn't viable for my
college position. And I missed out on things
as well because of it. So did you get a teaching
job as a PE and music teacher? Yes, I did. Very
lucky. I lived, as I said, an intern. I was still
living at home at that stage. Sancta Maria College
and Sister Basil Gaffney, who was the principal
at the time, but actually just became principal
shortly after. But she had a great time for music.
So within three or four years of my time there,
she had... four or five, maybe even music teachers
on the staff. So it was great. Now, the PE facilities
were rather poor, but there was a great love
of music. And St. Mary's was an all -girls school?
All -girls Mercy School would be now in Kest.
Okay, very good. What stands out for you then
in that teaching time? Do you remember? Yeah,
what stands out, I suppose, there was great camaraderie
among the staff. And what stands out for me now
in hindsight is that just this year, I realised
that three of the past pupils from around my
era are now principals in South Dublin schools.
I've met all three. Three people you taught?
Yes. Okay. Yes, which I thought was really good.
So, yeah, it was really, it was a very good school,
still is a very good school, catering for a wide
variety of people. Now, Ireland was a little
bit more homogenous then. But, you know, it was
catering for people from different backgrounds,
which I really did like. Well, you mentioned
principalship there, the three past pupils who
are now principals, but you became a principal
yourself in the year 2000. Yes, that's right.
And actually, the school I chose to apply for
was St. Louis Rathmines. Because of its diversity.
I loved the idea that it had students from all
walks of life. And in fact, as it turned out,
around that time, you'll remember there were
a lot of people coming into the country for the
first time. And so we used to call them non -nationals,
which, of course, I think might be a bit of a
derogatory term now. And then they became new
nationals or new Irish. I'm not sure if we still
have a good language on that. But it was quite
a challenge at the time. Now, before I did that,
I had worked in the management body, the GMB,
for two years. So I kind of knew, and I had worked
on the transition year support service as well.
So I'd had sort of a broader experience. And
I had spent two years, and this was quite formative
for me, I spent two years teaching in Kenya.
in a Loretta school in Kenya. And I think that
probably had an impact on my philosophy of education
and philosophy of life, particularly in relation
to the Catholic schools. Okay, tell me, where
was that school? It was called Matunda, and it
was between Eldoretta and Katare, so well up
from Nairobi, going up towards Turkana, which
is the desert area. What a lovely climate. It's
the Rift Valley, just the northern. Where it
all started. Where it all started. Absolutely.
Beautiful country. And lovely people. Really
friendly. And what brought you out there, Eilis?
Did you see an advert? Was it something, were
you inspired by a missionary? Well, I kind of
laughed and said, oh no, I did not want to be
a missionary. I was 25 or whatever age. I wanted
to travel. And that was my opportunity to travel.
I had initially applied to go to Lesotho through
one of the Irish agencies. And then the political
situation was such that that fell apart. And
then I had to... That would have been still in...
Apartheid time, was it? Yes, very much so, yeah.
Yeah, it was in the 80s. Yeah. But I have a sister,
Loretta Nunn, and she said, well, maybe, you
know, we have schools in Kenya. And it went on
from there, and it was arranged through them.
But I was teaching the States in a government
school and I received the government salary of
whatever, a few pence. Shillings. Shillings,
exactly, yeah. A small number of shillings, but
enough to live on there. Because we were given
a house and I was sharing a house with another
Irish girl. So that was nice too. And you were
teaching all subjects, was it? I was teaching
English, PE and music. Of course. And teaching
music to the Kenyans was an absolutely brilliant
experience. They're natural. They'll naturally
harmonize and they'll sing forever. They loved
it. They taught me actually more than I taught
them. Isn't that a lovely, lovely story? So come
back, we're a principal by the year 2000 after
a brief sojourn with the JMB and with the transition
year. Of course, transition year was pretty new
at that time. Yes, it was. We might say a word
or two about that because that was a very exciting
time in Irish education and something that has
stood the test of time. For sure. Yes, it was
very exciting. And Sanctuary had started it reasonably
early. And they initially, the principal asked.
the most senior teacher to be the transition
year coordinator, but it didn't suit her. She
was a more traditional type teacher. So then
I was asked, I was actually doing my master's
at the time and that's what precipitated the
invitation because I was doing one of my assignments
on the transition year program. And in fact,
I did my master's thesis on transition year.
So obviously I had developed an interest in it.
And for that reason, I was asked, would I be
the coordinator? You did the master's in UCD?
UCD, yeah. And actually then what happened because,
as the department were then rolling out the transition
year to all schools, they needed a team to provide
professional development. So I was asked to go
on that team. And that was to train the coordinators,
was it? Exactly. To look at the programme generally,
we sometimes had sessions for teachers, we had
sessions for principals, very like what IDGEA
would do now with curricular changes and so on.
We could talk about IDGEA and all those changes.
I mean, so much has changed since that time.
But transition year in particular, it's been
a success. Definitely, yeah. And people all over
the world want to hear about it. But you'll still
have some parents saying it's not for my daughter
or my son. But I think the vast majority of them
have now accepted the value of it. And it's not
measured. It can't be measured in the same way
as the junior cert or leaving cert can be measured.
They have to think about what does it do for
my daughter or what does it do for my son. And
when you think of things like well -being nowadays,
that, you know, there's so many opportunities
in transition year to develop well -being. And
even that language was being used in the early
days of the transition. Absolutely. Yeah. Way
before it came in now. Absolutely. You mentioned
you used the word idja just again. We might remind
ourselves of what idja is and where did it come
from? Yeah. Well, the word idja, of course, means
teacher or professor or whatever. But it... It's
now the team that offers professional development
across all the areas of education in Ireland.
And it's kind of an agency of the Department
of Education. And people are seconded from their
school to go onto this team. Now it could be
curricular or it could be in relation to policy,
it could be in relation to planning. What had
started with the transition year support service
then also moved out to being when they brought
in changes to the curriculum at junior cycle.
There was a junior cycle team. department over
the years have had various models of in -service
for teachers. And the current model is a combination
of all the different pillars that they had before,
including leadership, because I also worked,
I was seconded a second time to the leadership
development for schools team. which was another
agency of the Department of Education. And this
time, this was to provide professional development
training for existing principals, new principals
and aspiring principals. So I spent four years
doing that. And you were working with a tremendous
team. I remember at the time, it was an exciting
time because there was so much, so many people
moving at that time. Yeah. There was so much
change. Absolutely. And there was a great energy
around LDS. Yes. And this feeling that... All
of us who were coming into senior leadership
at that stage had somebody that we could reach
out to and learn from and it was a great sharing
experience. And actually that came from... It
came from Europe anyway, because we were asked
to write the country background report. And part
of the training that was offered as a result
of that came from the realization that Ireland
was a little bit behind other countries in their
professional development that they were offering
for principals. Very good. Yes, certainly we
will come back to that. I'm sure there's so much
we could mine in there. You mentioned IJ and
you've used your words like primary and secondary
or post -primary. I know from my own time working
in the UK, the word post -primary doesn't register
with them. And it was only when I was over there,
I realized, God, we have lots of different types
of education after primary. And that's why, you
know, we have umbrella terms. Could we just say
a little bit about the structure, about how the
Irish education system is structured? And we
know under three levels, maybe, and who's responsible
for it. And we might also touch on those two
words we mentioned earlier, patron and trustee.
OK, yeah, sure. Yeah, the Irish education system
is quite complex. But at primary level, I think
everybody's aware that it's predominantly church
based, Catholic church based. There's well over
80 percent of schools run. are run by, well,
when I say run, I mean, the patron is the local
bishop. And obviously in a changing Ireland,
they've made a few attempts and they're on their
third attempt to change that and to redress the
balance a little bit and to divest some of the
schools from Catholic patronage to other patronages.
I have to say, I'm reminded of the... European
elections. When we don't give the right answer,
we have another referendum. I read that actually
in the Irish Catholic only last week or one of
the previous edition where it was Juncker who
was being quoted as if we don't get the right
answer, we can ask them again. Exactly. I have
a feeling that's what's happening. But look,
to be fair, I think we all recognize that it's
not the right balance. There's too many Catholic
primary schools. I mean, I heard Bishop Paul
Connell actually on them. Shannonside radio or
podcast maybe it was recently speaking very well
on the matter they want to be able to have a
Catholic school that is a Catholic school and
there are too many of them at the moment however
when it comes to actually changing nobody wants
to change their school So I think that's a very
interesting dilemma, but that's where we are.
And of course, the Educate Together movement
started in the 70s at primary level, very successfully.
They started because they didn't want, a group
of parents out in Dawkey, the Dawkey School Project,
didn't want the domination of the church in the
education of their children. So that movement
has been very successful and there are lots of
Educate Together primary schools now. So at least
there's, and then there's the Church of Ireland
or other religious ones. Yeah, as you say it
there, I have not met anybody who would disagree
with the statement there needs to be a broader
patronage across primary education. So it is
an interesting dilemma. We're certainly in very
interesting times now because there seems to
be a bit of momentum gathering around the consultation
that's going on. And yet at local level, it almost
has the same. impact is the potential closure
of a post office or a guard station. People feel
that there's something really that could be lost
rather than gained in this. But let's see where
that takes us. So we've got primary, we have
essentially Catholic, 88 % I believe of the schools
are still under the patronage of the bishop,
as you say, 6 % in Church of Ireland or other
Protestant denominations and then a relatively
small and yet robust group of other schools.
under the patronage of the ETB or Educate Together.
The new community national schools. I call them
new. Are they 10 years? I'd say only about that.
They are pretty new. The new kids on the block.
Absolutely. And we'll see how that goes. And
I mentioned the community school, national school.
We also have community schools at post -primary.
So maybe that's a good segue into what are the
different types of post -primary school. Yeah.
And essentially, I suppose there are, There's
the ETP schools, Education Training Board. I'll
come back to that in a minute. There is now a
small number of Educate Together schools. And
then there's a significant number of denominational
post -primary schools or second level schools,
most of which are Catholic de facto, because
that's how it developed traditionally and historically.
The Educate Together schools are now called,
usually called community colleges. And there's
two different types. Some of them are what we
call designated. So they actually have a denominational
person, partner, like, for example, the Catholic
bishop would be a partner, but not a patron.
So they don't have the legal share of the work,
if you like, but they have certain rights. So
the designated community colleges are the education
training board. The education training boards
are state agencies, you know, so they're effectively.
what you might call public schools, although
we keep using different languages. Some people
of our age or other vintage might remember the
VECs. Exactly, exactly. Effectively, that's what
they are. And then there's the ETB schools, another
part of them, another group of them, have no
religious connection at all. They don't have
any religious partner or patron. So they could
be considered to be non -denominational. as opposed
to the multi -denominational that the other ones
are. And we call them community colleges? They're
community colleges, but they're both called community
colleges. They're just not designated. But they're
not designated. And very often they will teach
from, they could teach from a Christian perspective.
Their ethos can be Christian, you know, sort
of influenced by Christianity, but they could
equally be non -denomination. So they're the
ETB schools. So they're really on the side of
the state runs them. Then on the other extreme,
we have what are all private schools, except
we tend to call the private schools the ones
that are fee -charging. But actually, they're
all private because they're privately owned.
They're privately owned, but publicly funded.
And there's a significant number of those now,
370 or thereabouts. And they are predominantly
the Catholic schools with Catholic patronage.
And then, and they're, as I say, technically
private. And then in the middle, you have the
multi -denominational schools, which are the
community schools. And they will have a foot
in both camps. They'll have an ETB patron and
a religious patron. So they are, and there's
97 of them. So relatively small number, but they
were. started in the early 80s, maybe late 70s,
to serve the community. It was a little bit like
the comprehensive schools in England, you know,
because if you remember, the old VCs were very
much the technical subjects, whereas the religious
-run schools were the academic. So this was to
be in the middle, where they did both. Now, obviously,
with the evolution of education now, all schools
do both the technical and the academic. Very
good, very good. Can we say a little word, just
a short word about third level, because the third
level is provided by the state largely. Although
there still are the remnants of some other partners
that they might have had. Yeah, well, I think
the interesting thing was the Universities Act
in 1999 made pretty much most of the universities
secular. And I say apart from we have Moreno
Institute of Education and we have Mary Eye.
But even Mary Eye now, I think, is linked into
UL, I think, if I remember correctly. We also
had the teacher training colleges at primary
level. If you think of Church of Ireland Training
College in Rathmines, St. Pat's in Drumcondra
and Kerry's Fort in Black Rock. And all three
of those now are in under DCU. So it has become
more, dare I say, homogenous. But they do have
a centre for Catholic education in DCU and a
centre for Church of Ireland education. So they
still have the opportunity, if you like, to support
people. And DCU, if I'm not mistaken, is where
my alma mater, Mater Dei, is housed. Of course,
absolutely. So they have responsibility there
for the training of a lot of the catechists and
the RE teachers that are coming into the system.
That's right. OK, so if I can come back to secondary
or the post -primary, as I call it, you've used
the term patron and you've used the term trustee
at different times. Just to say a word, I know
it's the primary question. What's the difference?
How do they differ? What do the terms mean? OK,
well, the patron of school and interestingly
enough, every school in Ireland has to have a
patron, which is not the same in other countries.
A patron is the person who exercises the functions
as described in the Education Act, which effectively
means overseeing ethos, property and finance.
The trustee or trustees focus more on the property.
So now the terms are used interchangeably at
times, particularly at second level, because
the Articles of Management uses the word trustees
all the time. But I think for a lot of people,
they might be familiar with some of the new patron
bodies who are now companies and are corporate
entities, whereas the trustees would have been
three named people from the religious order.
Like, for example, when I was principal in St.
Louis Red Mines, there were three named trustees
because they were the property owners and effectively
they were giving the board of management the
right. to go into the school and run the school.
I suppose in corporate terms, they would have
been the members of the company or the members
of directors who had a particular role in overseeing
the assets on behalf of the owners. Particularly
the property. I think... financially, I'm not
sure what it would have, how that would have
sat with, but definitely the property. Yeah,
because very often the trustees are the owners
of the property or else they're the people who
have the stewardship of the property. It could
be leased to them, for example, but they have
responsibility for the property. And earlier
we spoke about your role as chief executive of
APTCS, the Association of Patrons and Trustees
of Catholic Schools. You might describe that
structure for us as well. Effectively, you created
what you brought into existence. Well, I suppose
APTCS is part of a group. And the Catholic Education
Partnership might be considered to be at the
head of the group. And that is the organization
that reports directly back to the bishops. So
the idea of putting this structure together was
to bring more unification to the Catholic sector
so we could speak a little bit stronger in a
society that is now becoming more secular. So
our voice would be heard better. So the CEP,
Catholic Education Partnership, is one group.
APTCS represents the patron and trustees' interest.
What they call the Secretariat of Secondary Schools,
or more commonly known as the Joint Managerial
Body, represents the boards of management of
the second level schools. We now also have the
primary schools, Primary School Management Body,
CPSMA, joined as well. So what I used to call
a three legged stool has now become a four legged
table. So maybe it's more stable that way. But
the idea is that. where we meet, the CEOs of
those four organisations would meet on a regular
basis, every five or six weeks, to share what
was going on in each of our specific, because
we each had a specific role, but to make sure
we were all singing from the same hymn sheet.
And those four groups, again, just say, again,
CEP, the Catholic Education Partnership, SSS,
or in other words, Secretariat of Secondary Schools,
or the Joint Managerial Body. That's one, two
names, one. Association of Patrons and Trustees,
which is patrons of second level, and CPSMA,
Catholic Primary School Management Association,
which is the management body for the primary
schools. And the CEOs are meeting there, and
if you can drill it down then within APTCS, you
also would have chaired meetings. Others who
were representing patrons and trustees at different
levels. I think the very interesting development
that has occurred in the last, I suppose, 15
to 20 years has been the setting up of patron
bodies. So you know from APTCS that there are
basically six or seven major trusts that are
now the patrons of 75 % of the Catholic second
level schools. So that's a very significant number.
So we had within APTCS a group called the Trusts
Coordination Committee. And they were actually
the backbone of APTCS in that they were the people
who were reaching out to all their schools, which
was, if you remember, 75 % of the schools, and
sometimes doing similar work and sometimes doing
things differently. So it was a great forum for
sharing ideas, for keeping up to date. And indeed,
for linking into the Department of Education
when the department wanted to promote something
or educate the patrons or whatever it might be,
that they would often have webinars, for instance,
on issues like special needs, which is very topical
at the moment. But as well as that, I wouldn't
like to forget the other 25 % of schools because
they have three different. The bishops are the
patrons of the diocesan colleges. The diocesan
colleges were set up originally as junior seminaries,
you know, to train boys for the priesthood. They've
now progressed beyond that. Many of them are
co -ed, etc. Then the other one is what we call
the lay schools. Very interesting, 18 of them.
They each have one school under their patronage.
And they're very often families who decided they
wanted to open a school and they wanted to be
a Catholic school. So they're a refugee school.
And there are still 18 of those. There's still
18 of them. In the hands of the same families
or companies? Usually if it's the same family,
yes. Yeah, they've gone down. Now, some of them
are not families. Some of them are trusts. Like,
for example, the one over in Ball was a St. Louis
school. And back in 1978, the Lewis sisters decided
that this school wasn't viable anymore. It was
a boarding school. They didn't really need it
anymore. So they were going to close it. And
the people in the local area did not want to
lose their school. So they set up the Bals Schools
Trust. And they've been there ever since. The
school is running very successfully. So there's
all kinds of stories. Different stories. I think
somebody has written a book about those. If they
haven't, they should, because that would be a
fascinating part of it. I know from my own experience
in Abbeyfield that they were very proud of the
Kellys, it was called, was the name of the school.
And that was where all the boys were educated.
And then there was a girls' school where all
the girls were educated. And then there was a
VC school, which was called the Tech. Yes, traditionally.
Very much a model of what happened on a national
level. The very successful schools were amalgamated
into what is now... a very successful community
college. Okay, yeah, very good. In the town with
State of the Art. And actually, you mentioned
there the religious congregations. There's very
few religious congregations now left on their
own. Okay. There's about 14 of them, but when
we looked at the number of schools... There are
a very small number of schools and a number of
them are thinking of joining other trusts or
maybe setting themselves up as a trust because,
as you know, the number of religious vocations
is declining. So if they want their schools to
continue into the future, they're handing over
to lay people to run the schools or to be patron
of the school and to keep the ethos going, but
to do that to the laity rather than the church.
You've brought us nicely then to that. question
about where this is going and what are the needs
of the system at the moment to preserve that
highly valued and highly successful endeavour
that we might call Catholic education or education
generally in Ireland. I see you have your copy
of the Grace Report with you, which is the must
-have item. Well, maybe tell us a little bit
about what the Grace Report was, where it came
out of and what it's saying to us. Sure. Yes.
The Grace Report. Grace stands for Global Researchers
Advancing Catholic Education. And it's a combination,
a collaboration between various colleges. I won't
try and name them all, but I'll probably leave
out somebody. But a very good piece of work.
Six little booklets they produced. And in booklet
number six, they've highlighted. 20 recommendations
for the future. Some of them quite hard hitting,
as if this was not being done already. So I think
we have to be a little bit careful. But basically,
I suppose what they were looking at, they were
looking at it from the academic perspective.
And if you try to assess the Catholic schools
and what it contributes to society. It's hard
to quantify it academically. It's the quantitative
and the qualitative. Yeah. I know that there
is a bit of a dilemma there for the researchers
in Catholic education and how you do get the
message across in a way that empowers people
to do something about it without suggesting that,
you know, or at least casting aspersions on what's
going on. Exactly. And raising questions about
what's going on. And a lot of parents still want
to send their children to a Catholic school,
but they don't articulate it as being a Catholic
school. They want to send their children to a
particular school because they like what's going
on in the school. When we analyze that, you kind
of think, well, why do we do things the way we
do? And fundamentally, it's because we believe
that the children were created in the image and
likeness of God. And no matter how bold they
are, I know that's a very old fashioned word,
bold, but you kind of have to see the good in
them. And if you think if you're a parent and
you want your child to be well looked after in
school, you should be able to get that care.
in a Catholic society. That's a very useful point
of focus on it for people because there is a
lot of debate and I mean libraries full of books
about defining what Catholic education is and
Lord knows how many documents have come out of
the Vatican or out of the various different Catholic
universities in Rome to interpret from an intellectual
point of view but I like the way you put it there
that it's something that parents and families
value. Yeah. And at the heart of that is because
they feel that their child is uniquely valued
within that environment and is treated the way
they treat. They want their own child to be treated.
It's something very special. And it's not the
child or the parents don't have to be Catholic,
but the ethos of the school is such that they
will get that care. And I think people accept
that. And, you know, mind you, we would like
that schools would. be overtly Catholic as well,
you know, that they will include prayers and
liturgies and be mindful and provide opportunities
for faith formation for the students. Tricky
enough when you're trying to cater for everybody
and you have a real mix, but there has to be
something in the school, some activities and
some visible evidence that the school is Catholic
because Any school will say it's a caring school.
But it's where our values come from. It's that
they're rooted in the Gospels. And that's maybe
what makes us different. Going back to the Grace
report for a minute, I suppose some of the recommendations
they made, and they made quite a few in relation
to patrons and trustees. One of the things they
said was they have to invest in significant training
for boards of management so that all members
are familiar with the comprehensive vision of
the nature and purpose of Catholic education
and schooling. Very similar to what you were
saying there, Nicky, that, you know, we need
to have people who can speak. speak the language
and who can talk about why they're doing what
they're doing and where the values come from,
et cetera. And I think the same would come, they
talk about a mission statement, but it's more
than that. They're also talking about recruiting
people to boards of management, being proactive.
The patrons need to be proactive in doing that.
And also they need to be aware, the board of
management needs to be aware of what's going
on in the school generally. If I remember rightly
as well, one of the key points that they make
is that the recruitment of the members who are
volunteers. People don't often take that for
granted. There are thousands. There's actually
thousands of people. Some of whom this evening
or tomorrow evening or Wednesday evening will
be going, leaving their own fireside, leaving
their own house to go to a school to attend a
board of management meeting. Yes. To be there
as a volunteer in the service of the children
and the staff in the school. And something that
we should, maybe we don't log that enough. And
I think if my memory serves me right, the Grace
Report asks the patrons to take a more proactive
role, to use your word. And not just leave it
to the principal, which was often the experience
at a local level that the principal tries to
cajole and encourage people to join a board.
Yes, and it is very important to get good people
on the board. But as you say, it is a voluntary
role. But there is amazing goodwill, really.
The slight concern I would have in the future
is the demands that are made on the board of
management and the legal liabilities. I mean,
the board is a legal entity, can sue and be sued.
So, you know, you go on the board knowing that
you could actually be. find yourself in the courts.
But the only thing is you are well protected.
As long as you stay within the rules, if you
like, which are set out in the Articles of Management,
you wouldn't be prosecuted individually or personally.
And your insurance will cover you. So the important
thing is to know what you're doing, I suppose.
But even that in itself puts a bit of pressure
on members of Boards of Management, but particularly
the chairperson. And there's often talk about,
well, I mean, there is training provided for
Boards of Management in different ways. But I
think the chairperson plays a particularly Tell
us a little bit more about that then. What's
unique about the chair? Because obviously the
chair has got a, as you say, a very significant
role. And one, again, there are thousands of
them because there's one in every primary school
and there's one in every post -primary, secondary
school. Nobody gets paid. That's right. There
may be expenses if they're incurred that are
reimbursed, although I've never met a chair who
ever came to expenses. So, you know, tell us
a little bit, what's the particular demand? Well,
I think the particular demand is that the chairperson
is the person who works with the principal in
between meetings. For the most part, the members
of the board of management, OK, they have documents
to read before the meeting, but when the meeting
is finished. They walk off home and they have
their cup of tea, you know, and they don't have
to worry usually too much unless they're particularly
mandated by the board to carry out some specific
task. For example, the chair of a finance committee,
maybe there might be a member who has a particular
skill set there who might be able to help. And
you'd probably find that the chairperson of the
finance committee would be busy in between meetings
because they would usually have a meeting. before
the board meeting. And they would go through
with the finance secretary in the school and
probably the principal as well, go through the
finances for the month. And then they would bring
the detail to the board meeting. So, yeah, absolutely.
That's a good example. I suppose the classic
example of the chairperson is when something
goes wrong in the school, be it a serious complaint,
be it an issue, for example, with an underperforming
teacher. I hate that phrase. But, you know, then
if there's work to be done in between, Or indeed,
if there's a procedure in place, then you'll
find, for example, in the disciplinary procedure
or the complaints procedure, there's a particular
role for the chairperson. So they do have a little
bit more responsibility. And of course, they
have to lead the meeting as well. Yeah. And particularly,
though, when things are difficult. Yeah. The
problematic, you know, handling critical incidents,
for example, or those policies when they kick
in the chair, it's a particular role. You've
led me into recruitment because I know that obviously
the board is the employer. In a school, again,
not many people get that, that the state provides
for education but doesn't provide it. And one
of the things in its provision is that it asks
boards or requires boards to be the employer.
Yes, correct. You'll hear people say we have
an issue around recruitment and particularly
for the future. It's pointed to in the Grace
Report. It's hinted at in other research. You
might say a little bit about that for us or your
experience of it. Sure. Well, the recruitment
of teachers at the moment is a huge problem because
they're just not in the country. They seem to
go off to Saudi Arabia and other places. Oh,
Kenya, indeed. Well, I was going to say to make
money, but of course, going to Kenya wasn't for
making money. We seem to be training enough,
but they just love to travel. And I would never,
having done it myself, I would never deprive
a young person from traveling. I think it's a
great experience. But it is a problem for the
system. There aren't enough. I was talking to
two principals this morning, one of whom had
told me the business teacher is now going to
leave in January because he wants to go off to
Abu Dhabi. And the other one said, and I've just
lost a home economics and an Irish teacher. And
I have nobody to fill those places. And they're
bending over backwards to adjust their timetables
to try and fit them in. So that's a nationwide
level. It's happening across the board. And we
have a lot of unfilled positions currently in
the system, the principals and the unions, even
the trade unions will tell you that. For sure,
yeah. And then the other one is principals and
deputies, people going for those positions. I
mean, the number of applicants has reduced significantly.
I don't know whether that will come back up again,
but I think it's just the sheer workload that's
expected of principals in particular. At least
the deputy principal can walk away at five o
'clock or whatever by agreement. whereas the
principal is never off duty. If something happens,
like if there's an accident in the school, there
could be an outsider using the premises, there
could be a break -in, there could be a fire,
as happened in one of the Louis schools while
I was involved. And not my school, I'm glad to
say, but the shock of it, four o 'clock in the
morning, a fire break -out breaks out. Christmas
Eve, the caretaker died. So it doesn't matter
what time of year, what time of day or night,
if something, if there's a disaster, then it's
the principal has to take responsibility. I'd
like to recall, as well on that Irish, those
really dark and difficult days of COVID when
the principals had to completely flip or pivot,
I think is the word that they use in corporate
speak, they had to pivot their entire organisation
from one way of doing things into a completely
different way of doing things and it had to be
done almost immediately. So a big shout out to
the principals for that. Absolutely. Or even
more significantly, as I countered firsthand,
when the schools were reopening. it was the principals
who were asked, expected, whatever, to reconfigure,
reorganise, re -timetable, reschedule, redesign,
you know, their entire environment. Albeit, and
I would say this as well, with tremendous support
from individual teachers who stepped up at a
critical time. But it was just one example of
where that principal's role... Really, it's infinite.
Yes, absolutely. They were their measuring tapes,
weren't they? It was just extraordinary. They
did amazing work. Sourcing perspex. Yes. And
hand sanitizer and PPE, protective equipment
generally. It was an amazing time. And in fairness,
we came to it, although I am hearing that, unfortunately,
there's still fallout for students in particular
in terms of anxiety and just they haven't maybe
had the opportunities they would normally have
and they're not thriving as well as they would
be if it hadn't happened. Perhaps we see the
value or we misunderstood the value of those
rites of passage that happen within the system.
At sixth class, at transition year, at third
year, at leaving. They mean so much more to the
person, to the students, than just the academic
transfer, just moving on to secondary school.
There was so many, a whole choreography, a whole
theatre around that transition that certain years
missed. Yeah, absolutely. I hope we're able to
carry those lessons. Certainly any school I go
to these days, I still see the markings on the
tarmac in the yard. I must remind, you know,
what must that have been like those days when
somebody said we need to... Social distancing,
keep two metres apart. Yeah. Everywhere. Walk
on the left, walk on the right, you know. So
anyway, we'll leave those behind, leave those
thoughts to one side, acknowledging that, you
know, again, the principal's role appears to
be infinite. It is a challenge. It's a challenge
at all levels of the system to recruit and to
retain because it won't be getting them into
the system, but keeping them there. I'd like
to, if I can, just again return to the Grace
Report and its particular focus on Catholic education,
because it has a lot to say also about ethos,
characteristics, spirit and religious education.
And starting with the last one, the religious
education turned out to be of great concern to
them. The quality of religious education and
the quantity and the number of schools. I mean,
we're supposed to be doing two hours a week on
each timetable, but there's a lot of schools
not doing that. But what was even more concerning
was the quality of what was being taught in some
RE classes. Now, we never like to tire everybody
with the same brush, but particularly for senior
cycle who are not doing the Leaving Cert. Because,
as you know, with the RE programme, there's a
Junior Cert and a Leaving Cert RE programme for
the exam. But then it's an optional subject,
but they have to do something else if they're
not doing the exam. They have to do another RE
programme. And my sense is that Currently, the
majority of Catholic schools are offering the
junior, are following the junior cycle curriculum.
Yes. And that the ones who aren't are the outliers.
Yeah. Whereas when they get to senior cycle,
it's very few schools offer ORI as a Leaving
Cert subject. Yes. So whatever ORI is going to
be delivered will be done without that framework.
without that infrastructure around them of curriculum
and assessment. That's the problem, because if
there's no framework for the, or no, what we
used to call a syllabus, but if the content is
that loose, it's entirely at the discretion of
the teacher what they present. At junior cycle...
The CEP and the bishops brought out a very good
resource for schools called Living Love. Grown
Love. No, no, Grown Love is a primary. Living
Love. Oh, sorry, sorry, for the post -primary.
Yes, post -primary, yes, sorry, at Junior Cycle.
And it's a very good resource. It's got a lot,
it's based on PowerPoint presentations. We would
have video clips and areas for discussion. And
it's for people of all religions and none as
well. Although there is a Catholic perspective,
but it clarifies on each slide as relevant if
it's particular to the Catholic faith or not.
So it's very, very well done. I understand they're
working on something similar for Senior Cycle
because Senior Cycle is crying out, as you say,
there are fewer students doing the Leaving Cert
RE program. So that means there's a significant
number of fifth and sixth year students sitting
in a class called RE. And you would wonder at
the quality of what they're learning in those
classes. And I understand from principles I've
spoken to recently that there's some concern
about the pressure on the timetable itself at
senior cycle and how is it possible to maintain
two hours per week when... It appears the NCCR,
the department, continue to add in new demands.
Correct. In SPHE or... Yes, SPHE and wellbeing
and all of that, they're now required to do as
a 300 or 400 hours at senior cycle, whereas up
to relatively recently, that was at junior cycle.
So it is a huge problem. And as you know, like
the leafy search is the gateway to third level
still, even though we'd like to think it's not
as... It's not the only gateway to third level,
but nevertheless, people still see it that way.
So to cut out a subject to do your RE, which
is a non -exam subject, students are not going
to buy into that. It's very, very difficult then
to fit in your SPHE and your wellbeing and your
RE and anything else that you might want to add
to that. So tricky one. A tricky one. Come back
to our Grace Report then. And if I can, my own
pet subject, I know it's one that's close to
your heart in terms of the preparation of leaders
or the support of leaders within the system.
I know the Grace Report has a number of things
to say about that and what's needed. Yeah, for
sure. There's no doubt about it. They're very
strong on the need to develop leaders throughout
the system. And in fairness, there are things
happening that there isn't a concerted effort
in Ireland. People are doing things like the
Trust Bodies, for example, run very good, maybe
short courses for their teachers, potential leaders.
Aspiring leaders, as they call it. Exactly. Deputy
principals, etc. To have something that would
be greater recognition for is what they're crying
out for here. And I think it's a valid point.
I think we do need to have people in the system
who will be able to take over in the future as
principals or deputies. And even within the school,
you do need to have committed leaders throughout
the school to promote the Catholic ethos. And
I think they need to do a little bit more. I
think we all need to do a little bit more work
in that area. Absolutely. Any final words on
the Grace Report? If there was one of those recommendations,
would you think the sine qua non, if you like,
what's the big one? Well, the one I wouldn't
choose is that a requirement to principals or
deputy principals be required to have a qualification
in faith -based school leadership. I think I
don't like the idea of that. I would prefer that
the The commitment to faith -based education
comes about through more of an organic process
and a dynamic process. I think a qualification
would just end up being a tick box. And interestingly
enough, when I worked in LDS, we considered that
you would have not just for faith -based schools,
but for all schools. And interestingly enough,
at that time, in the early, whatever, 2007. time
around that time the department rejected it too
they weren't pushed about having a qualification
specifically for being a principal okay obviously
you have to have your basic degree and then but
because there are so many different ways you
can contribute contribute to both the school
and your own professional development it doesn't
have to be a piece of paper so it's not that
you don't want people to develop or to better
themselves so that they can become really good
leaders but it's about how they do that are being
recognized in more than one way. And I would
feel the same about the faith -based school leadership,
that having a qualification is not going to do
it. So the whole thing of accountability is another
one that they've raised. Again, how you do the
accountability. Accountability can be helpful.
I'm thinking of the Looking at Our Schools document
that came out a number of years ago, a long time
ago now, initially, actually did improve the
quality of teaching and learning. But it's how
it was used was really good. It wasn't used as...
you must do this, this and this and tick the
box when you have it done. It was the statements
of best practice. Effective and very effective.
Yeah. And that gave you the sense of where the
standards were. And I think it worked very well
from that. It's interesting you say that, because
looking at this document does seem fresh. Yes.
When you look at it now, even though it's been
in the system for quite some time, your career,
particularly in leadership, spans a time when
the inspectorate, upped its game, shall we say,
and the introduction of systems of what were,
you know, a gentle dipping of the toe in the
water of accountability, shall we say, and raising
that accountability register. So you might just
say final words, if I can, about the system,
the inspectorate, how that has changed and maybe
leading into this. how that is absent when it
comes to characteristic spirit or faith or there's
elements of that missing. Well, I think the way
the inspectorate has developed is fascinating
because I remember back in 1999 when I was working
the JMB going into Marlborough Street when Eamon
Stack was the chief inspector and he was talking
about WSI, whole school inspection, and the management
bodies and the unions were all there for the
meeting. And there was sort of uproar, you know,
no, we don't want this. Because if you remember
before that, the inspections at second level
were almost non -existent. They were non -existent
for a number of years. So to bring in this whole
school model was not, it did not go down very
well. But over time, and in fairness to the various
chief inspectors during that time, they did modify
and it became whole school evaluation. The idea
was. that the school would evaluate itself. It
was self -evaluation, and then the inspectors
would come in from the outside. Would moderate
that self -evaluation. And moderate it. Now,
we all know that if inspectors come in, people
will still jump, you know, and they will do a
lot of work in preparation. So I actually think,
though, the combination has worked quite well,
that you're doing self -evaluation, you have
your school report and your school improvement
plan every year. So that has created this spirit.
of school improvement within the school. So for
a significant number of teachers now, they don't
dread an inspection like they used to. But they
are still inspections. So I think it has probably
upped the standard. I've certainly seen the teaching
and learning change and improve, I think improve,
much more student focused now. The students are
much more active in class. There's so many different
methodologies and strategies being used in the
classroom than there were before. Like this didactic
standing at the blackboard is long gone. Long
gone. So there's so many different, and the flipped
classroom. There's so many things now that the
students, that help them to enjoy. They're learning.
And they're part of the norm. Exactly. Which
were, even in my years as a principal, were seen
as innovations. Yes. And now, well, that's the
norm. Exactly. They're the norm. Yeah. I'm remembering
early noughties when Anne Looney in the NCCA
was beginning those steps around junior cycle
reform or, you know, taking on that and realising
and trying to define that narrative for us that
this was all connected. School development planning
was morphing into, school planning, self -evaluation
and curriculum reform. Ultimately, it was going
to have an impact in the classroom. Yes. And
I think you'd have to say now in 2025. It did
happen. It did have an impact. And continues
to have an impact in the classroom. It's evolving
all the time. Our current challenge now is how
to handle AI. Yes. But we don't go there because
that's the subject of another conversation. Absolutely
fascinating. One final word, as I said, about
the inspection or the accountability. There is
very little accountability within Catholic education,
per se, just for itself. Yes. Obviously, all
schools, all Catholic schools, primary, secondary,
whatever, are subject to the same. rigorous,
we'd have to say rigorous now, compliance check
of various bodies, including the, you know, whether
that's TUSLA or the Department of Health or other
bodies. And of course, the inspectorate in terms
of standards. It seems there's a missing link
or there's a gap there in terms of characteristic
spirit or that part of us, the system that we
cherish so much. Absolutely. And ironically,
the ETBs and Educate Together have their ethos
frameworks and the Catholic sector doesn't have
an equivalent. But I know individual Catholic
organizations like the Jesuits, for example,
have put a lot of work into a project which I
would love to see. being expanded. So they become
more like the dialogue schools that Loven Bove
from Belgium was talking about. I think that
idea is a good one. is actually operated. But
I think it probably is a good idea in the long
run to have something like that, but not the
more prescriptive, you must do this, this, and
this. But the beauty of what I picked up from
the Jesuit one was that they're starting from
the Jesuit charism and their tenets for Catholic
education. And the Ignatian paradigm. Yeah, and
they built up. And then the schools, I think,
would have quite a say. Plenty of flexibility
for them to think about those issues and look
at how they're happening in the school. And that's
the direction I'd like to see. I must give Jonathan
a shout and see would he come on and talk to
us a little bit about that. Absolutely. It would
be a fascinating area for discussion. I have
your last question now. We're already gone over.
We need another 50p for the meter if we stay
here much longer. It's a question I love asking
sixth years. You know, when I'm... saying goodbye
to them or wishing them well or preparing them
for their final rite of passage. If you were
to return either to APTCS or to the system in
10 years' time, as I say to the students, if
you were coming back to your school in 10 years'
time, what are the things that you would hope
would still be here? What do you hope we don't
lose? Wherever the innovations or AI or further
research takes us, what are we going to make
sure we don't lose? And then, of course, the
collatery of that. Is there anything we might
hope that we'd have let go? OK, well, not lose.
I hope we never lose the heart that's in Irish
education. It stemmed from centuries ago, from
the hedge school days, where it was the love
of learning and it was the acknowledgement of
the value of education. And I had the benefit
of that in my own home growing up in a big family
that wasn't exactly rich, but there was a richness
in terms of education. And in particular, in
the Catholic education sphere, that that approach
is relevant to the time. So in 10 years time,
that it's not an old fashioned the way we used
to do, but it'll be as relevant to that, to its
time. as it is now, or maybe even more so. But
that will be future, forward looking, future
looking. Wonderful. And it's time to finish on
negative. Let's try and frame that. What do we
need to let go? What do you hope is improved,
shall we say, or better? Yeah. Well, I suppose
part of the problem is always the resourcing,
but, you know, that we have enough money to provide
the training courses and stuff. And we never
do have enough of that. But maybe let go a little
bit more of the territorial part and work more
together. And that includes, say, the management
bodies and the patron bodies and, you know, the
training for principals and for leaders in schools
generally. Irish, thanks so much. We're after
covering so much ground and loved hearing the
stories of Kenya and netball. Thank you for your
time and for your generosity in sharing your
experience and insights. And we wish you well.
Thank you. As you begin or you continue the next
chapter that you're on. Indeed. Thank you very
much, Nicky. Thanks, Irish. Best of luck. God
bless. You've been listening to Education Nation,
brought to you from the offices of the Irish
Catholic newspaper. I am Nicky Cudahy. You can
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