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Hello and welcome to Education Nation, a new

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podcast for 2026, brought to you by the Irish

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Catholic. I'm Nicky Cuddihy, and I've lined up

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a host of fascinating guests who have intriguing

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stories to tell about their own career journeys

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and their role within the education system. As

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we hear their stories, We hope that the podcast

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will help us develop a better understanding of

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the complexity and the richness and the diversity

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that make our education system so unique and

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our schools and teachers so highly valued. I've

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deliberately drawn our guests from every different

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nook and cranny of the system, from former colleagues

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among principals and teachers, patrons, leaders

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of Catholic trusts, religious, thought leaders

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and researchers, those who provide training,

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support, and leadership in Catholic education,

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and others who may not share our sense of mission,

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and who can challenge us with different and even

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opposing views of our education nation. Joining

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me today is Eilis Humphries, someone with an

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unrivaled CV, we might say, and track record

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as a servant and leader in Irish education. Eilis,

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thank you for joining us. You're welcome. I think

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you're officially retired. Yes, I am officially

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retired since September, so it's still a bit

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of a novelty. A bit of a novelty. But I'm not

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quite at the... pipe and slippers stage yet.

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Oh, good. A lot of people will be glad to hear

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that. Your last role, just explain that to me,

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Chief Executive Officer of... The APTCS, the

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Association of Patrons and Trustees of Catholic

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Schools. And this is where I've been for the

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last four years. And it was an organisation,

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it is an organisation, relatively new organisation

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that was set up to bring together the various

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patrons, particularly at second level at the

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moment. So the various patron bodies, the congregations,

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the bishops and those patrons of lay schools.

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OK, wonderful. Thanks, Eilidh. I'm going to.

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ask you a few very general questions and we'll

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see where the conversation takes us. In terms

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of your career in education, where did that all

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start? And as a teacher, what did you train in?

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OK, well, I think it probably started at home.

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My father was a teacher and education was highly

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valued at home. So I went to local schools. I

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was brought up in Terranure in Dublin and went

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to presentation Terranure primary and Loretto

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Beaufort second level. And I loved school. I

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loved everything to do with people, even throughout

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my summer jobs and stuff for working with people

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rather than working in offices or shops or whatever.

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And so I suppose my my career in education started

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with that and the idea of wanting to be working

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with people rather than working in an office.

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And so I went to college down to Limerick. I

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was very lucky, actually, to get in to do PE

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and music, which is a very unusual combination.

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Yeah, not offered anymore. Not enough people

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were taking music as a second subject. So they

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stopped it after my year. And was this in Talmond?

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Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What's now UL, of course. Yeah.

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But very enjoyable. It was quite a small college

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in those days, but I loved the PE. There was

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great camaraderie, a great sense of vibrancy.

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And it was a specific teacher training course.

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You know, it wasn't, it was a concurrent model.

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The concurrent model. Rather than the... So a

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four -year degree at that time, was it? Four

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-year degree. Yeah. Okay. With teaching practice

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thrown in every year. What was your sport, or

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what were your sports, or were you into anything

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else? In particular, I started with hockey, but

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I graduated... to netball as well. I played netball

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for Ireland. You did not. Not many people know

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that, I guess. Wow. Well, basically, they were

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very short. There weren't very many people playing

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netball. Not to none. There's not too many short

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people playing netball. But anyway, it was good

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fun. Very good. Yeah, I loved it. And music -wise,

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did you have an instrument in particular? I played

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the piano, yes. And I had this lovely lecturer,

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Dr. Rush, who was the organist up in the Redemptus

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in Limerick. Oh, yes, I know it well. Yeah, a

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wonderful man. He was brought over from Storbrook.

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Hill for the college when the college opened

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first because we were my cohort was the fourth

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year So now you can actually work at my age.

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Well, we're not going to do that, but I'm really

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fascinated by that as a combination of PE and

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music. Yes, good. How many were in your group?

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You see, there was only three people in my class

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went to do music. And then by the end of first

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year, two of them had dropped out. So I ended

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up joining in with the year ahead of me because

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there were three in that group and one in the

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year above that. So we ended up in my fourth

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year in college, I was the only one studying

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music. So obviously that wasn't viable for my

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college position. And I missed out on things

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as well because of it. So did you get a teaching

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job as a PE and music teacher? Yes, I did. Very

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lucky. I lived, as I said, an intern. I was still

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living at home at that stage. Sancta Maria College

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and Sister Basil Gaffney, who was the principal

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at the time, but actually just became principal

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shortly after. But she had a great time for music.

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So within three or four years of my time there,

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she had... four or five, maybe even music teachers

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on the staff. So it was great. Now, the PE facilities

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were rather poor, but there was a great love

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of music. And St. Mary's was an all -girls school?

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All -girls Mercy School would be now in Kest.

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Okay, very good. What stands out for you then

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in that teaching time? Do you remember? Yeah,

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what stands out, I suppose, there was great camaraderie

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among the staff. And what stands out for me now

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in hindsight is that just this year, I realised

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that three of the past pupils from around my

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era are now principals in South Dublin schools.

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I've met all three. Three people you taught?

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Yes. Okay. Yes, which I thought was really good.

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So, yeah, it was really, it was a very good school,

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still is a very good school, catering for a wide

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variety of people. Now, Ireland was a little

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bit more homogenous then. But, you know, it was

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catering for people from different backgrounds,

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which I really did like. Well, you mentioned

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principalship there, the three past pupils who

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are now principals, but you became a principal

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yourself in the year 2000. Yes, that's right.

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And actually, the school I chose to apply for

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was St. Louis Rathmines. Because of its diversity.

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I loved the idea that it had students from all

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walks of life. And in fact, as it turned out,

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around that time, you'll remember there were

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a lot of people coming into the country for the

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first time. And so we used to call them non -nationals,

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which, of course, I think might be a bit of a

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derogatory term now. And then they became new

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nationals or new Irish. I'm not sure if we still

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have a good language on that. But it was quite

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a challenge at the time. Now, before I did that,

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I had worked in the management body, the GMB,

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for two years. So I kind of knew, and I had worked

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on the transition year support service as well.

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So I'd had sort of a broader experience. And

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I had spent two years, and this was quite formative

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for me, I spent two years teaching in Kenya.

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in a Loretta school in Kenya. And I think that

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probably had an impact on my philosophy of education

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and philosophy of life, particularly in relation

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to the Catholic schools. Okay, tell me, where

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was that school? It was called Matunda, and it

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was between Eldoretta and Katare, so well up

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from Nairobi, going up towards Turkana, which

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is the desert area. What a lovely climate. It's

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the Rift Valley, just the northern. Where it

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all started. Where it all started. Absolutely.

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Beautiful country. And lovely people. Really

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friendly. And what brought you out there, Eilis?

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Did you see an advert? Was it something, were

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you inspired by a missionary? Well, I kind of

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laughed and said, oh no, I did not want to be

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a missionary. I was 25 or whatever age. I wanted

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to travel. And that was my opportunity to travel.

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I had initially applied to go to Lesotho through

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one of the Irish agencies. And then the political

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situation was such that that fell apart. And

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then I had to... That would have been still in...

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Apartheid time, was it? Yes, very much so, yeah.

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Yeah, it was in the 80s. Yeah. But I have a sister,

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Loretta Nunn, and she said, well, maybe, you

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know, we have schools in Kenya. And it went on

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from there, and it was arranged through them.

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But I was teaching the States in a government

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school and I received the government salary of

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whatever, a few pence. Shillings. Shillings,

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exactly, yeah. A small number of shillings, but

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enough to live on there. Because we were given

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a house and I was sharing a house with another

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Irish girl. So that was nice too. And you were

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teaching all subjects, was it? I was teaching

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English, PE and music. Of course. And teaching

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music to the Kenyans was an absolutely brilliant

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experience. They're natural. They'll naturally

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harmonize and they'll sing forever. They loved

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it. They taught me actually more than I taught

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them. Isn't that a lovely, lovely story? So come

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back, we're a principal by the year 2000 after

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a brief sojourn with the JMB and with the transition

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year. Of course, transition year was pretty new

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at that time. Yes, it was. We might say a word

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or two about that because that was a very exciting

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time in Irish education and something that has

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stood the test of time. For sure. Yes, it was

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very exciting. And Sanctuary had started it reasonably

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early. And they initially, the principal asked.

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the most senior teacher to be the transition

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year coordinator, but it didn't suit her. She

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was a more traditional type teacher. So then

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I was asked, I was actually doing my master's

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at the time and that's what precipitated the

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invitation because I was doing one of my assignments

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on the transition year program. And in fact,

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I did my master's thesis on transition year.

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So obviously I had developed an interest in it.

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And for that reason, I was asked, would I be

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the coordinator? You did the master's in UCD?

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UCD, yeah. And actually then what happened because,

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as the department were then rolling out the transition

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year to all schools, they needed a team to provide

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professional development. So I was asked to go

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on that team. And that was to train the coordinators,

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was it? Exactly. To look at the programme generally,

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we sometimes had sessions for teachers, we had

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sessions for principals, very like what IDGEA

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would do now with curricular changes and so on.

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We could talk about IDGEA and all those changes.

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I mean, so much has changed since that time.

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But transition year in particular, it's been

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a success. Definitely, yeah. And people all over

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the world want to hear about it. But you'll still

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have some parents saying it's not for my daughter

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or my son. But I think the vast majority of them

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have now accepted the value of it. And it's not

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measured. It can't be measured in the same way

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as the junior cert or leaving cert can be measured.

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They have to think about what does it do for

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my daughter or what does it do for my son. And

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when you think of things like well -being nowadays,

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that, you know, there's so many opportunities

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in transition year to develop well -being. And

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even that language was being used in the early

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days of the transition. Absolutely. Yeah. Way

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before it came in now. Absolutely. You mentioned

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you used the word idja just again. We might remind

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ourselves of what idja is and where did it come

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from? Yeah. Well, the word idja, of course, means

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teacher or professor or whatever. But it... It's

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now the team that offers professional development

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across all the areas of education in Ireland.

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And it's kind of an agency of the Department

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of Education. And people are seconded from their

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school to go onto this team. Now it could be

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curricular or it could be in relation to policy,

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it could be in relation to planning. What had

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started with the transition year support service

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then also moved out to being when they brought

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in changes to the curriculum at junior cycle.

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There was a junior cycle team. department over

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the years have had various models of in -service

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for teachers. And the current model is a combination

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of all the different pillars that they had before,

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including leadership, because I also worked,

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I was seconded a second time to the leadership

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development for schools team. which was another

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agency of the Department of Education. And this

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time, this was to provide professional development

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training for existing principals, new principals

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and aspiring principals. So I spent four years

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doing that. And you were working with a tremendous

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team. I remember at the time, it was an exciting

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time because there was so much, so many people

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moving at that time. Yeah. There was so much

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change. Absolutely. And there was a great energy

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around LDS. Yes. And this feeling that... All

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of us who were coming into senior leadership

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at that stage had somebody that we could reach

00:13:06.549 --> 00:13:09.490
out to and learn from and it was a great sharing

00:13:09.490 --> 00:13:13.029
experience. And actually that came from... It

00:13:13.029 --> 00:13:16.570
came from Europe anyway, because we were asked

00:13:16.570 --> 00:13:18.970
to write the country background report. And part

00:13:18.970 --> 00:13:21.190
of the training that was offered as a result

00:13:21.190 --> 00:13:23.710
of that came from the realization that Ireland

00:13:23.710 --> 00:13:26.750
was a little bit behind other countries in their

00:13:26.750 --> 00:13:28.649
professional development that they were offering

00:13:28.649 --> 00:13:32.070
for principals. Very good. Yes, certainly we

00:13:32.070 --> 00:13:34.070
will come back to that. I'm sure there's so much

00:13:34.070 --> 00:13:38.059
we could mine in there. You mentioned IJ and

00:13:38.059 --> 00:13:40.320
you've used your words like primary and secondary

00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:43.039
or post -primary. I know from my own time working

00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.860
in the UK, the word post -primary doesn't register

00:13:45.860 --> 00:13:48.799
with them. And it was only when I was over there,

00:13:48.860 --> 00:13:50.700
I realized, God, we have lots of different types

00:13:50.700 --> 00:13:55.039
of education after primary. And that's why, you

00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.679
know, we have umbrella terms. Could we just say

00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:00.879
a little bit about the structure, about how the

00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:04.139
Irish education system is structured? And we

00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:07.340
know under three levels, maybe, and who's responsible

00:14:07.340 --> 00:14:09.700
for it. And we might also touch on those two

00:14:09.700 --> 00:14:12.340
words we mentioned earlier, patron and trustee.

00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:15.620
OK, yeah, sure. Yeah, the Irish education system

00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:18.059
is quite complex. But at primary level, I think

00:14:18.059 --> 00:14:20.480
everybody's aware that it's predominantly church

00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.100
based, Catholic church based. There's well over

00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:27.179
80 percent of schools run. are run by, well,

00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.480
when I say run, I mean, the patron is the local

00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:32.320
bishop. And obviously in a changing Ireland,

00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.500
they've made a few attempts and they're on their

00:14:36.500 --> 00:14:40.279
third attempt to change that and to redress the

00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:42.820
balance a little bit and to divest some of the

00:14:42.820 --> 00:14:45.440
schools from Catholic patronage to other patronages.

00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:48.330
I have to say, I'm reminded of the... European

00:14:48.330 --> 00:14:50.929
elections. When we don't give the right answer,

00:14:51.009 --> 00:14:53.950
we have another referendum. I read that actually

00:14:53.950 --> 00:14:55.750
in the Irish Catholic only last week or one of

00:14:55.750 --> 00:14:57.830
the previous edition where it was Juncker who

00:14:57.830 --> 00:15:00.870
was being quoted as if we don't get the right

00:15:00.870 --> 00:15:03.309
answer, we can ask them again. Exactly. I have

00:15:03.309 --> 00:15:04.850
a feeling that's what's happening. But look,

00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:07.730
to be fair, I think we all recognize that it's

00:15:07.730 --> 00:15:09.610
not the right balance. There's too many Catholic

00:15:09.610 --> 00:15:11.409
primary schools. I mean, I heard Bishop Paul

00:15:11.409 --> 00:15:15.659
Connell actually on them. Shannonside radio or

00:15:15.659 --> 00:15:18.940
podcast maybe it was recently speaking very well

00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:21.659
on the matter they want to be able to have a

00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:24.279
Catholic school that is a Catholic school and

00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:27.500
there are too many of them at the moment however

00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:29.879
when it comes to actually changing nobody wants

00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.960
to change their school So I think that's a very

00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:34.559
interesting dilemma, but that's where we are.

00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:36.419
And of course, the Educate Together movement

00:15:36.419 --> 00:15:40.600
started in the 70s at primary level, very successfully.

00:15:40.659 --> 00:15:43.320
They started because they didn't want, a group

00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:45.340
of parents out in Dawkey, the Dawkey School Project,

00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:49.460
didn't want the domination of the church in the

00:15:49.460 --> 00:15:51.639
education of their children. So that movement

00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:53.860
has been very successful and there are lots of

00:15:53.860 --> 00:15:56.740
Educate Together primary schools now. So at least

00:15:56.740 --> 00:15:58.159
there's, and then there's the Church of Ireland

00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:00.639
or other religious ones. Yeah, as you say it

00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:05.360
there, I have not met anybody who would disagree

00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:08.460
with the statement there needs to be a broader

00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:13.500
patronage across primary education. So it is

00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:15.620
an interesting dilemma. We're certainly in very

00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:17.340
interesting times now because there seems to

00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:19.720
be a bit of momentum gathering around the consultation

00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:25.080
that's going on. And yet at local level, it almost

00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.700
has the same. impact is the potential closure

00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:30.919
of a post office or a guard station. People feel

00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:34.179
that there's something really that could be lost

00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:37.580
rather than gained in this. But let's see where

00:16:37.580 --> 00:16:40.460
that takes us. So we've got primary, we have

00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:44.059
essentially Catholic, 88 % I believe of the schools

00:16:44.059 --> 00:16:45.840
are still under the patronage of the bishop,

00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:49.419
as you say, 6 % in Church of Ireland or other

00:16:49.419 --> 00:16:51.919
Protestant denominations and then a relatively

00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.980
small and yet robust group of other schools.

00:16:55.659 --> 00:16:58.019
under the patronage of the ETB or Educate Together.

00:16:58.299 --> 00:17:01.259
The new community national schools. I call them

00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:04.259
new. Are they 10 years? I'd say only about that.

00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:07.079
They are pretty new. The new kids on the block.

00:17:07.500 --> 00:17:11.079
Absolutely. And we'll see how that goes. And

00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:13.720
I mentioned the community school, national school.

00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.539
We also have community schools at post -primary.

00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:18.559
So maybe that's a good segue into what are the

00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.200
different types of post -primary school. Yeah.

00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:25.339
And essentially, I suppose there are, There's

00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:28.240
the ETP schools, Education Training Board. I'll

00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:30.140
come back to that in a minute. There is now a

00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:32.779
small number of Educate Together schools. And

00:17:32.779 --> 00:17:35.819
then there's a significant number of denominational

00:17:35.819 --> 00:17:38.779
post -primary schools or second level schools,

00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.640
most of which are Catholic de facto, because

00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:44.940
that's how it developed traditionally and historically.

00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:50.019
The Educate Together schools are now called,

00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:53.519
usually called community colleges. And there's

00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:55.779
two different types. Some of them are what we

00:17:55.779 --> 00:17:58.700
call designated. So they actually have a denominational

00:17:58.700 --> 00:18:01.359
person, partner, like, for example, the Catholic

00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:03.920
bishop would be a partner, but not a patron.

00:18:04.059 --> 00:18:06.680
So they don't have the legal share of the work,

00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:08.859
if you like, but they have certain rights. So

00:18:08.859 --> 00:18:12.660
the designated community colleges are the education

00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:14.819
training board. The education training boards

00:18:14.819 --> 00:18:17.339
are state agencies, you know, so they're effectively.

00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.299
what you might call public schools, although

00:18:20.299 --> 00:18:24.220
we keep using different languages. Some people

00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:27.400
of our age or other vintage might remember the

00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:30.200
VECs. Exactly, exactly. Effectively, that's what

00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:34.680
they are. And then there's the ETB schools, another

00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.819
part of them, another group of them, have no

00:18:37.819 --> 00:18:40.599
religious connection at all. They don't have

00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:44.359
any religious partner or patron. So they could

00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:47.430
be considered to be non -denominational. as opposed

00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:49.869
to the multi -denominational that the other ones

00:18:49.869 --> 00:18:52.329
are. And we call them community colleges? They're

00:18:52.329 --> 00:18:54.869
community colleges, but they're both called community

00:18:54.869 --> 00:18:57.069
colleges. They're just not designated. But they're

00:18:57.069 --> 00:19:00.309
not designated. And very often they will teach

00:19:00.309 --> 00:19:02.930
from, they could teach from a Christian perspective.

00:19:03.109 --> 00:19:06.490
Their ethos can be Christian, you know, sort

00:19:06.490 --> 00:19:10.250
of influenced by Christianity, but they could

00:19:10.250 --> 00:19:12.630
equally be non -denomination. So they're the

00:19:12.630 --> 00:19:14.950
ETB schools. So they're really on the side of

00:19:14.950 --> 00:19:20.589
the state runs them. Then on the other extreme,

00:19:20.650 --> 00:19:23.589
we have what are all private schools, except

00:19:23.589 --> 00:19:26.230
we tend to call the private schools the ones

00:19:26.230 --> 00:19:28.650
that are fee -charging. But actually, they're

00:19:28.650 --> 00:19:30.430
all private because they're privately owned.

00:19:30.730 --> 00:19:32.910
They're privately owned, but publicly funded.

00:19:33.089 --> 00:19:35.589
And there's a significant number of those now,

00:19:35.630 --> 00:19:39.309
370 or thereabouts. And they are predominantly

00:19:39.309 --> 00:19:42.049
the Catholic schools with Catholic patronage.

00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:44.400
And then, and they're, as I say, technically

00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:46.680
private. And then in the middle, you have the

00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:48.440
multi -denominational schools, which are the

00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:51.539
community schools. And they will have a foot

00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:54.519
in both camps. They'll have an ETB patron and

00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:58.319
a religious patron. So they are, and there's

00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:02.299
97 of them. So relatively small number, but they

00:20:02.299 --> 00:20:06.720
were. started in the early 80s, maybe late 70s,

00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.839
to serve the community. It was a little bit like

00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:10.539
the comprehensive schools in England, you know,

00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.400
because if you remember, the old VCs were very

00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.519
much the technical subjects, whereas the religious

00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:18.940
-run schools were the academic. So this was to

00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:21.160
be in the middle, where they did both. Now, obviously,

00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:24.319
with the evolution of education now, all schools

00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:27.440
do both the technical and the academic. Very

00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:30.740
good, very good. Can we say a little word, just

00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:32.579
a short word about third level, because the third

00:20:32.579 --> 00:20:35.440
level is provided by the state largely. Although

00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.619
there still are the remnants of some other partners

00:20:38.619 --> 00:20:41.480
that they might have had. Yeah, well, I think

00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.059
the interesting thing was the Universities Act

00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:48.819
in 1999 made pretty much most of the universities

00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:53.089
secular. And I say apart from we have Moreno

00:20:53.089 --> 00:20:56.930
Institute of Education and we have Mary Eye.

00:20:57.049 --> 00:20:58.910
But even Mary Eye now, I think, is linked into

00:20:58.910 --> 00:21:02.069
UL, I think, if I remember correctly. We also

00:21:02.069 --> 00:21:04.089
had the teacher training colleges at primary

00:21:04.089 --> 00:21:07.289
level. If you think of Church of Ireland Training

00:21:07.289 --> 00:21:11.369
College in Rathmines, St. Pat's in Drumcondra

00:21:11.369 --> 00:21:14.750
and Kerry's Fort in Black Rock. And all three

00:21:14.750 --> 00:21:19.099
of those now are in under DCU. So it has become

00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:22.839
more, dare I say, homogenous. But they do have

00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.380
a centre for Catholic education in DCU and a

00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:28.940
centre for Church of Ireland education. So they

00:21:28.940 --> 00:21:33.799
still have the opportunity, if you like, to support

00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.579
people. And DCU, if I'm not mistaken, is where

00:21:36.579 --> 00:21:39.859
my alma mater, Mater Dei, is housed. Of course,

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.700
absolutely. So they have responsibility there

00:21:42.700 --> 00:21:44.200
for the training of a lot of the catechists and

00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.240
the RE teachers that are coming into the system.

00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.109
That's right. OK, so if I can come back to secondary

00:21:49.109 --> 00:21:52.450
or the post -primary, as I call it, you've used

00:21:52.450 --> 00:21:54.569
the term patron and you've used the term trustee

00:21:54.569 --> 00:21:56.890
at different times. Just to say a word, I know

00:21:56.890 --> 00:21:58.990
it's the primary question. What's the difference?

00:21:59.589 --> 00:22:03.450
How do they differ? What do the terms mean? OK,

00:22:03.529 --> 00:22:05.490
well, the patron of school and interestingly

00:22:05.490 --> 00:22:07.369
enough, every school in Ireland has to have a

00:22:07.369 --> 00:22:09.490
patron, which is not the same in other countries.

00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.519
A patron is the person who exercises the functions

00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:16.980
as described in the Education Act, which effectively

00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:21.420
means overseeing ethos, property and finance.

00:22:21.859 --> 00:22:26.880
The trustee or trustees focus more on the property.

00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:31.819
So now the terms are used interchangeably at

00:22:31.819 --> 00:22:34.559
times, particularly at second level, because

00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:36.660
the Articles of Management uses the word trustees

00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:39.690
all the time. But I think for a lot of people,

00:22:39.890 --> 00:22:42.069
they might be familiar with some of the new patron

00:22:42.069 --> 00:22:46.029
bodies who are now companies and are corporate

00:22:46.029 --> 00:22:49.309
entities, whereas the trustees would have been

00:22:49.309 --> 00:22:52.029
three named people from the religious order.

00:22:52.130 --> 00:22:53.970
Like, for example, when I was principal in St.

00:22:54.029 --> 00:22:56.670
Louis Red Mines, there were three named trustees

00:22:56.670 --> 00:23:00.309
because they were the property owners and effectively

00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:02.410
they were giving the board of management the

00:23:02.410 --> 00:23:04.769
right. to go into the school and run the school.

00:23:05.009 --> 00:23:06.970
I suppose in corporate terms, they would have

00:23:06.970 --> 00:23:10.609
been the members of the company or the members

00:23:10.609 --> 00:23:14.670
of directors who had a particular role in overseeing

00:23:14.670 --> 00:23:18.269
the assets on behalf of the owners. Particularly

00:23:18.269 --> 00:23:23.420
the property. I think... financially, I'm not

00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:26.500
sure what it would have, how that would have

00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:29.059
sat with, but definitely the property. Yeah,

00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:30.740
because very often the trustees are the owners

00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:32.980
of the property or else they're the people who

00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:34.740
have the stewardship of the property. It could

00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:37.119
be leased to them, for example, but they have

00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:39.539
responsibility for the property. And earlier

00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:42.099
we spoke about your role as chief executive of

00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:44.539
APTCS, the Association of Patrons and Trustees

00:23:44.539 --> 00:23:47.259
of Catholic Schools. You might describe that

00:23:47.259 --> 00:23:51.279
structure for us as well. Effectively, you created

00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:54.799
what you brought into existence. Well, I suppose

00:23:54.799 --> 00:24:00.789
APTCS is part of a group. And the Catholic Education

00:24:00.789 --> 00:24:03.609
Partnership might be considered to be at the

00:24:03.609 --> 00:24:06.210
head of the group. And that is the organization

00:24:06.210 --> 00:24:09.230
that reports directly back to the bishops. So

00:24:09.230 --> 00:24:12.230
the idea of putting this structure together was

00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:14.450
to bring more unification to the Catholic sector

00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:17.250
so we could speak a little bit stronger in a

00:24:17.250 --> 00:24:20.009
society that is now becoming more secular. So

00:24:20.009 --> 00:24:23.029
our voice would be heard better. So the CEP,

00:24:23.109 --> 00:24:25.250
Catholic Education Partnership, is one group.

00:24:25.730 --> 00:24:29.829
APTCS represents the patron and trustees' interest.

00:24:31.849 --> 00:24:33.950
What they call the Secretariat of Secondary Schools,

00:24:34.009 --> 00:24:36.329
or more commonly known as the Joint Managerial

00:24:36.329 --> 00:24:39.730
Body, represents the boards of management of

00:24:39.730 --> 00:24:43.390
the second level schools. We now also have the

00:24:43.390 --> 00:24:46.349
primary schools, Primary School Management Body,

00:24:46.470 --> 00:24:50.150
CPSMA, joined as well. So what I used to call

00:24:50.150 --> 00:24:52.890
a three legged stool has now become a four legged

00:24:52.890 --> 00:24:57.130
table. So maybe it's more stable that way. But

00:24:57.130 --> 00:25:00.930
the idea is that. where we meet, the CEOs of

00:25:00.930 --> 00:25:02.950
those four organisations would meet on a regular

00:25:02.950 --> 00:25:05.809
basis, every five or six weeks, to share what

00:25:05.809 --> 00:25:08.289
was going on in each of our specific, because

00:25:08.289 --> 00:25:11.289
we each had a specific role, but to make sure

00:25:11.289 --> 00:25:13.890
we were all singing from the same hymn sheet.

00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:15.809
And those four groups, again, just say, again,

00:25:15.950 --> 00:25:21.309
CEP, the Catholic Education Partnership, SSS,

00:25:21.329 --> 00:25:24.049
or in other words, Secretariat of Secondary Schools,

00:25:24.089 --> 00:25:26.690
or the Joint Managerial Body. That's one, two

00:25:26.690 --> 00:25:30.150
names, one. Association of Patrons and Trustees,

00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:34.930
which is patrons of second level, and CPSMA,

00:25:34.970 --> 00:25:37.049
Catholic Primary School Management Association,

00:25:37.349 --> 00:25:38.869
which is the management body for the primary

00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:44.769
schools. And the CEOs are meeting there, and

00:25:44.769 --> 00:25:48.569
if you can drill it down then within APTCS, you

00:25:48.569 --> 00:25:51.200
also would have chaired meetings. Others who

00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.019
were representing patrons and trustees at different

00:25:54.019 --> 00:25:56.500
levels. I think the very interesting development

00:25:56.500 --> 00:25:59.660
that has occurred in the last, I suppose, 15

00:25:59.660 --> 00:26:02.500
to 20 years has been the setting up of patron

00:26:02.500 --> 00:26:06.339
bodies. So you know from APTCS that there are

00:26:06.339 --> 00:26:11.079
basically six or seven major trusts that are

00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:15.519
now the patrons of 75 % of the Catholic second

00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:19.039
level schools. So that's a very significant number.

00:26:19.099 --> 00:26:23.440
So we had within APTCS a group called the Trusts

00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:25.859
Coordination Committee. And they were actually

00:26:25.859 --> 00:26:30.440
the backbone of APTCS in that they were the people

00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.960
who were reaching out to all their schools, which

00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.119
was, if you remember, 75 % of the schools, and

00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.319
sometimes doing similar work and sometimes doing

00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:43.680
things differently. So it was a great forum for

00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.119
sharing ideas, for keeping up to date. And indeed,

00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.279
for linking into the Department of Education

00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:51.940
when the department wanted to promote something

00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:55.119
or educate the patrons or whatever it might be,

00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.160
that they would often have webinars, for instance,

00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:01.140
on issues like special needs, which is very topical

00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:03.500
at the moment. But as well as that, I wouldn't

00:27:03.500 --> 00:27:06.380
like to forget the other 25 % of schools because

00:27:06.380 --> 00:27:11.180
they have three different. The bishops are the

00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:13.940
patrons of the diocesan colleges. The diocesan

00:27:13.940 --> 00:27:17.160
colleges were set up originally as junior seminaries,

00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:19.420
you know, to train boys for the priesthood. They've

00:27:19.420 --> 00:27:21.359
now progressed beyond that. Many of them are

00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:26.720
co -ed, etc. Then the other one is what we call

00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.740
the lay schools. Very interesting, 18 of them.

00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.700
They each have one school under their patronage.

00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:37.319
And they're very often families who decided they

00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:39.119
wanted to open a school and they wanted to be

00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:41.480
a Catholic school. So they're a refugee school.

00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:43.000
And there are still 18 of those. There's still

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:44.980
18 of them. In the hands of the same families

00:27:44.980 --> 00:27:47.920
or companies? Usually if it's the same family,

00:27:48.019 --> 00:27:51.140
yes. Yeah, they've gone down. Now, some of them

00:27:51.140 --> 00:27:53.940
are not families. Some of them are trusts. Like,

00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.819
for example, the one over in Ball was a St. Louis

00:27:56.819 --> 00:28:01.200
school. And back in 1978, the Lewis sisters decided

00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:03.779
that this school wasn't viable anymore. It was

00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:05.460
a boarding school. They didn't really need it

00:28:05.460 --> 00:28:08.099
anymore. So they were going to close it. And

00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:10.119
the people in the local area did not want to

00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:12.799
lose their school. So they set up the Bals Schools

00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:16.160
Trust. And they've been there ever since. The

00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.240
school is running very successfully. So there's

00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:20.940
all kinds of stories. Different stories. I think

00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:23.259
somebody has written a book about those. If they

00:28:23.259 --> 00:28:24.660
haven't, they should, because that would be a

00:28:24.660 --> 00:28:28.970
fascinating part of it. I know from my own experience

00:28:28.970 --> 00:28:30.710
in Abbeyfield that they were very proud of the

00:28:30.710 --> 00:28:32.990
Kellys, it was called, was the name of the school.

00:28:33.109 --> 00:28:36.109
And that was where all the boys were educated.

00:28:36.490 --> 00:28:38.089
And then there was a girls' school where all

00:28:38.089 --> 00:28:39.829
the girls were educated. And then there was a

00:28:39.829 --> 00:28:43.250
VC school, which was called the Tech. Yes, traditionally.

00:28:43.950 --> 00:28:46.490
Very much a model of what happened on a national

00:28:46.490 --> 00:28:50.230
level. The very successful schools were amalgamated

00:28:50.230 --> 00:28:53.680
into what is now... a very successful community

00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:56.640
college. Okay, yeah, very good. In the town with

00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:58.579
State of the Art. And actually, you mentioned

00:28:58.579 --> 00:29:00.680
there the religious congregations. There's very

00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:02.819
few religious congregations now left on their

00:29:02.819 --> 00:29:05.779
own. Okay. There's about 14 of them, but when

00:29:05.779 --> 00:29:08.440
we looked at the number of schools... There are

00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:10.660
a very small number of schools and a number of

00:29:10.660 --> 00:29:12.400
them are thinking of joining other trusts or

00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:14.920
maybe setting themselves up as a trust because,

00:29:15.019 --> 00:29:16.980
as you know, the number of religious vocations

00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:19.400
is declining. So if they want their schools to

00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:21.579
continue into the future, they're handing over

00:29:21.579 --> 00:29:24.480
to lay people to run the schools or to be patron

00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.420
of the school and to keep the ethos going, but

00:29:26.420 --> 00:29:29.539
to do that to the laity rather than the church.

00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:32.009
You've brought us nicely then to that. question

00:29:32.009 --> 00:29:35.630
about where this is going and what are the needs

00:29:35.630 --> 00:29:39.589
of the system at the moment to preserve that

00:29:39.589 --> 00:29:44.170
highly valued and highly successful endeavour

00:29:44.170 --> 00:29:46.349
that we might call Catholic education or education

00:29:46.349 --> 00:29:49.809
generally in Ireland. I see you have your copy

00:29:49.809 --> 00:29:53.130
of the Grace Report with you, which is the must

00:29:53.130 --> 00:29:57.599
-have item. Well, maybe tell us a little bit

00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:59.720
about what the Grace Report was, where it came

00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:04.000
out of and what it's saying to us. Sure. Yes.

00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:07.200
The Grace Report. Grace stands for Global Researchers

00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.940
Advancing Catholic Education. And it's a combination,

00:30:10.940 --> 00:30:15.220
a collaboration between various colleges. I won't

00:30:15.220 --> 00:30:17.319
try and name them all, but I'll probably leave

00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:19.180
out somebody. But a very good piece of work.

00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:21.900
Six little booklets they produced. And in booklet

00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:26.250
number six, they've highlighted. 20 recommendations

00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:29.750
for the future. Some of them quite hard hitting,

00:30:29.930 --> 00:30:33.410
as if this was not being done already. So I think

00:30:33.410 --> 00:30:35.730
we have to be a little bit careful. But basically,

00:30:35.769 --> 00:30:37.630
I suppose what they were looking at, they were

00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:39.450
looking at it from the academic perspective.

00:30:40.049 --> 00:30:42.910
And if you try to assess the Catholic schools

00:30:42.910 --> 00:30:48.279
and what it contributes to society. It's hard

00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.400
to quantify it academically. It's the quantitative

00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:53.660
and the qualitative. Yeah. I know that there

00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:55.799
is a bit of a dilemma there for the researchers

00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:57.920
in Catholic education and how you do get the

00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:00.380
message across in a way that empowers people

00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:04.779
to do something about it without suggesting that,

00:31:04.900 --> 00:31:07.059
you know, or at least casting aspersions on what's

00:31:07.059 --> 00:31:08.940
going on. Exactly. And raising questions about

00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:11.299
what's going on. And a lot of parents still want

00:31:11.299 --> 00:31:13.000
to send their children to a Catholic school,

00:31:13.099 --> 00:31:16.200
but they don't articulate it as being a Catholic

00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:18.660
school. They want to send their children to a

00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:20.539
particular school because they like what's going

00:31:20.539 --> 00:31:23.460
on in the school. When we analyze that, you kind

00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:26.079
of think, well, why do we do things the way we

00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:28.819
do? And fundamentally, it's because we believe

00:31:28.819 --> 00:31:30.920
that the children were created in the image and

00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.119
likeness of God. And no matter how bold they

00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:34.960
are, I know that's a very old fashioned word,

00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:37.619
bold, but you kind of have to see the good in

00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:40.039
them. And if you think if you're a parent and

00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:42.380
you want your child to be well looked after in

00:31:42.380 --> 00:31:45.640
school, you should be able to get that care.

00:31:46.299 --> 00:31:49.519
in a Catholic society. That's a very useful point

00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:52.539
of focus on it for people because there is a

00:31:52.539 --> 00:31:56.259
lot of debate and I mean libraries full of books

00:31:56.259 --> 00:31:59.099
about defining what Catholic education is and

00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:01.299
Lord knows how many documents have come out of

00:32:01.299 --> 00:32:04.480
the Vatican or out of the various different Catholic

00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.440
universities in Rome to interpret from an intellectual

00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:11.140
point of view but I like the way you put it there

00:32:11.140 --> 00:32:13.619
that it's something that parents and families

00:32:13.619 --> 00:32:17.099
value. Yeah. And at the heart of that is because

00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:20.920
they feel that their child is uniquely valued

00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:23.900
within that environment and is treated the way

00:32:23.900 --> 00:32:26.619
they treat. They want their own child to be treated.

00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:29.720
It's something very special. And it's not the

00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.519
child or the parents don't have to be Catholic,

00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:35.680
but the ethos of the school is such that they

00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:38.420
will get that care. And I think people accept

00:32:38.420 --> 00:32:40.940
that. And, you know, mind you, we would like

00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:44.289
that schools would. be overtly Catholic as well,

00:32:44.369 --> 00:32:46.190
you know, that they will include prayers and

00:32:46.190 --> 00:32:49.529
liturgies and be mindful and provide opportunities

00:32:49.529 --> 00:32:53.309
for faith formation for the students. Tricky

00:32:53.309 --> 00:32:55.130
enough when you're trying to cater for everybody

00:32:55.130 --> 00:32:57.690
and you have a real mix, but there has to be

00:32:57.690 --> 00:33:01.009
something in the school, some activities and

00:33:01.009 --> 00:33:05.230
some visible evidence that the school is Catholic

00:33:05.230 --> 00:33:08.900
because Any school will say it's a caring school.

00:33:09.140 --> 00:33:12.480
But it's where our values come from. It's that

00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:15.059
they're rooted in the Gospels. And that's maybe

00:33:15.059 --> 00:33:18.900
what makes us different. Going back to the Grace

00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:23.119
report for a minute, I suppose some of the recommendations

00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:26.680
they made, and they made quite a few in relation

00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:30.000
to patrons and trustees. One of the things they

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.420
said was they have to invest in significant training

00:33:32.420 --> 00:33:35.019
for boards of management so that all members

00:33:35.019 --> 00:33:37.500
are familiar with the comprehensive vision of

00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:39.259
the nature and purpose of Catholic education

00:33:39.259 --> 00:33:41.779
and schooling. Very similar to what you were

00:33:41.779 --> 00:33:43.640
saying there, Nicky, that, you know, we need

00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:46.190
to have people who can speak. speak the language

00:33:46.190 --> 00:33:48.109
and who can talk about why they're doing what

00:33:48.109 --> 00:33:50.109
they're doing and where the values come from,

00:33:50.170 --> 00:33:52.630
et cetera. And I think the same would come, they

00:33:52.630 --> 00:33:54.150
talk about a mission statement, but it's more

00:33:54.150 --> 00:33:56.250
than that. They're also talking about recruiting

00:33:56.250 --> 00:33:59.710
people to boards of management, being proactive.

00:33:59.910 --> 00:34:01.829
The patrons need to be proactive in doing that.

00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.559
And also they need to be aware, the board of

00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:07.220
management needs to be aware of what's going

00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:12.039
on in the school generally. If I remember rightly

00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:14.079
as well, one of the key points that they make

00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:17.880
is that the recruitment of the members who are

00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:21.019
volunteers. People don't often take that for

00:34:21.019 --> 00:34:23.280
granted. There are thousands. There's actually

00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:26.480
thousands of people. Some of whom this evening

00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.320
or tomorrow evening or Wednesday evening will

00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.920
be going, leaving their own fireside, leaving

00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:33.360
their own house to go to a school to attend a

00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.480
board of management meeting. Yes. To be there

00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:37.940
as a volunteer in the service of the children

00:34:37.940 --> 00:34:40.019
and the staff in the school. And something that

00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:43.260
we should, maybe we don't log that enough. And

00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:46.019
I think if my memory serves me right, the Grace

00:34:46.019 --> 00:34:49.239
Report asks the patrons to take a more proactive

00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.219
role, to use your word. And not just leave it

00:34:52.219 --> 00:34:54.440
to the principal, which was often the experience

00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:56.519
at a local level that the principal tries to

00:34:56.519 --> 00:35:00.099
cajole and encourage people to join a board.

00:35:00.300 --> 00:35:02.820
Yes, and it is very important to get good people

00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:04.980
on the board. But as you say, it is a voluntary

00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:08.300
role. But there is amazing goodwill, really.

00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:11.219
The slight concern I would have in the future

00:35:11.219 --> 00:35:13.639
is the demands that are made on the board of

00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.679
management and the legal liabilities. I mean,

00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:20.139
the board is a legal entity, can sue and be sued.

00:35:20.619 --> 00:35:23.599
So, you know, you go on the board knowing that

00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:26.420
you could actually be. find yourself in the courts.

00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:28.260
But the only thing is you are well protected.

00:35:28.380 --> 00:35:31.380
As long as you stay within the rules, if you

00:35:31.380 --> 00:35:33.260
like, which are set out in the Articles of Management,

00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:36.860
you wouldn't be prosecuted individually or personally.

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.699
And your insurance will cover you. So the important

00:35:39.699 --> 00:35:41.219
thing is to know what you're doing, I suppose.

00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:43.480
But even that in itself puts a bit of pressure

00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:45.699
on members of Boards of Management, but particularly

00:35:45.699 --> 00:35:48.440
the chairperson. And there's often talk about,

00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:50.099
well, I mean, there is training provided for

00:35:50.099 --> 00:35:52.239
Boards of Management in different ways. But I

00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.699
think the chairperson plays a particularly Tell

00:35:54.699 --> 00:35:56.260
us a little bit more about that then. What's

00:35:56.260 --> 00:35:58.059
unique about the chair? Because obviously the

00:35:58.059 --> 00:36:00.679
chair has got a, as you say, a very significant

00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.980
role. And one, again, there are thousands of

00:36:03.980 --> 00:36:05.579
them because there's one in every primary school

00:36:05.579 --> 00:36:07.940
and there's one in every post -primary, secondary

00:36:07.940 --> 00:36:12.179
school. Nobody gets paid. That's right. There

00:36:12.179 --> 00:36:14.539
may be expenses if they're incurred that are

00:36:14.539 --> 00:36:17.179
reimbursed, although I've never met a chair who

00:36:17.179 --> 00:36:20.599
ever came to expenses. So, you know, tell us

00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:22.699
a little bit, what's the particular demand? Well,

00:36:22.699 --> 00:36:24.599
I think the particular demand is that the chairperson

00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:27.159
is the person who works with the principal in

00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:30.519
between meetings. For the most part, the members

00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:32.380
of the board of management, OK, they have documents

00:36:32.380 --> 00:36:34.900
to read before the meeting, but when the meeting

00:36:34.900 --> 00:36:37.659
is finished. They walk off home and they have

00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:39.559
their cup of tea, you know, and they don't have

00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:42.579
to worry usually too much unless they're particularly

00:36:42.579 --> 00:36:45.300
mandated by the board to carry out some specific

00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:47.659
task. For example, the chair of a finance committee,

00:36:47.739 --> 00:36:49.760
maybe there might be a member who has a particular

00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.300
skill set there who might be able to help. And

00:36:52.300 --> 00:36:54.440
you'd probably find that the chairperson of the

00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:56.599
finance committee would be busy in between meetings

00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:58.829
because they would usually have a meeting. before

00:36:58.829 --> 00:37:00.570
the board meeting. And they would go through

00:37:00.570 --> 00:37:02.829
with the finance secretary in the school and

00:37:02.829 --> 00:37:05.030
probably the principal as well, go through the

00:37:05.030 --> 00:37:07.289
finances for the month. And then they would bring

00:37:07.289 --> 00:37:09.289
the detail to the board meeting. So, yeah, absolutely.

00:37:09.489 --> 00:37:11.670
That's a good example. I suppose the classic

00:37:11.670 --> 00:37:14.010
example of the chairperson is when something

00:37:14.010 --> 00:37:17.829
goes wrong in the school, be it a serious complaint,

00:37:18.210 --> 00:37:22.650
be it an issue, for example, with an underperforming

00:37:22.650 --> 00:37:25.570
teacher. I hate that phrase. But, you know, then

00:37:25.570 --> 00:37:28.420
if there's work to be done in between, Or indeed,

00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:31.760
if there's a procedure in place, then you'll

00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:33.920
find, for example, in the disciplinary procedure

00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:36.500
or the complaints procedure, there's a particular

00:37:36.500 --> 00:37:39.820
role for the chairperson. So they do have a little

00:37:39.820 --> 00:37:41.440
bit more responsibility. And of course, they

00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:45.059
have to lead the meeting as well. Yeah. And particularly,

00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.920
though, when things are difficult. Yeah. The

00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.119
problematic, you know, handling critical incidents,

00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:54.599
for example, or those policies when they kick

00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:58.269
in the chair, it's a particular role. You've

00:37:58.269 --> 00:38:00.909
led me into recruitment because I know that obviously

00:38:00.909 --> 00:38:03.809
the board is the employer. In a school, again,

00:38:03.889 --> 00:38:07.329
not many people get that, that the state provides

00:38:07.329 --> 00:38:10.530
for education but doesn't provide it. And one

00:38:10.530 --> 00:38:14.110
of the things in its provision is that it asks

00:38:14.110 --> 00:38:16.969
boards or requires boards to be the employer.

00:38:17.210 --> 00:38:20.610
Yes, correct. You'll hear people say we have

00:38:20.610 --> 00:38:23.530
an issue around recruitment and particularly

00:38:23.530 --> 00:38:26.280
for the future. It's pointed to in the Grace

00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:28.539
Report. It's hinted at in other research. You

00:38:28.539 --> 00:38:30.119
might say a little bit about that for us or your

00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:32.119
experience of it. Sure. Well, the recruitment

00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:35.579
of teachers at the moment is a huge problem because

00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:37.739
they're just not in the country. They seem to

00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:40.679
go off to Saudi Arabia and other places. Oh,

00:38:40.780 --> 00:38:43.880
Kenya, indeed. Well, I was going to say to make

00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:45.539
money, but of course, going to Kenya wasn't for

00:38:45.539 --> 00:38:50.289
making money. We seem to be training enough,

00:38:50.489 --> 00:38:53.269
but they just love to travel. And I would never,

00:38:53.349 --> 00:38:55.730
having done it myself, I would never deprive

00:38:55.730 --> 00:38:57.730
a young person from traveling. I think it's a

00:38:57.730 --> 00:38:59.789
great experience. But it is a problem for the

00:38:59.789 --> 00:39:02.690
system. There aren't enough. I was talking to

00:39:02.690 --> 00:39:05.309
two principals this morning, one of whom had

00:39:05.309 --> 00:39:07.110
told me the business teacher is now going to

00:39:07.110 --> 00:39:09.230
leave in January because he wants to go off to

00:39:09.230 --> 00:39:11.969
Abu Dhabi. And the other one said, and I've just

00:39:11.969 --> 00:39:14.369
lost a home economics and an Irish teacher. And

00:39:14.369 --> 00:39:16.190
I have nobody to fill those places. And they're

00:39:16.190 --> 00:39:18.650
bending over backwards to adjust their timetables

00:39:18.650 --> 00:39:22.110
to try and fit them in. So that's a nationwide

00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:23.670
level. It's happening across the board. And we

00:39:23.670 --> 00:39:25.650
have a lot of unfilled positions currently in

00:39:25.650 --> 00:39:27.369
the system, the principals and the unions, even

00:39:27.369 --> 00:39:29.369
the trade unions will tell you that. For sure,

00:39:29.550 --> 00:39:32.670
yeah. And then the other one is principals and

00:39:32.670 --> 00:39:34.869
deputies, people going for those positions. I

00:39:34.869 --> 00:39:37.550
mean, the number of applicants has reduced significantly.

00:39:38.309 --> 00:39:41.309
I don't know whether that will come back up again,

00:39:41.389 --> 00:39:43.730
but I think it's just the sheer workload that's

00:39:43.730 --> 00:39:47.070
expected of principals in particular. At least

00:39:47.070 --> 00:39:49.909
the deputy principal can walk away at five o

00:39:49.909 --> 00:39:52.639
'clock or whatever by agreement. whereas the

00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:55.440
principal is never off duty. If something happens,

00:39:55.539 --> 00:39:57.539
like if there's an accident in the school, there

00:39:57.539 --> 00:39:59.820
could be an outsider using the premises, there

00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:01.619
could be a break -in, there could be a fire,

00:40:01.739 --> 00:40:04.019
as happened in one of the Louis schools while

00:40:04.019 --> 00:40:06.539
I was involved. And not my school, I'm glad to

00:40:06.539 --> 00:40:08.139
say, but the shock of it, four o 'clock in the

00:40:08.139 --> 00:40:10.659
morning, a fire break -out breaks out. Christmas

00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:13.219
Eve, the caretaker died. So it doesn't matter

00:40:13.219 --> 00:40:15.199
what time of year, what time of day or night,

00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.400
if something, if there's a disaster, then it's

00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:20.539
the principal has to take responsibility. I'd

00:40:20.539 --> 00:40:22.840
like to recall, as well on that Irish, those

00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:26.380
really dark and difficult days of COVID when

00:40:26.380 --> 00:40:30.219
the principals had to completely flip or pivot,

00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:31.860
I think is the word that they use in corporate

00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:34.880
speak, they had to pivot their entire organisation

00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:37.840
from one way of doing things into a completely

00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:39.960
different way of doing things and it had to be

00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:41.860
done almost immediately. So a big shout out to

00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:44.199
the principals for that. Absolutely. Or even

00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:46.639
more significantly, as I countered firsthand,

00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.539
when the schools were reopening. it was the principals

00:40:50.539 --> 00:40:56.139
who were asked, expected, whatever, to reconfigure,

00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:59.880
reorganise, re -timetable, reschedule, redesign,

00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:05.579
you know, their entire environment. Albeit, and

00:41:05.579 --> 00:41:09.119
I would say this as well, with tremendous support

00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:11.699
from individual teachers who stepped up at a

00:41:11.699 --> 00:41:14.719
critical time. But it was just one example of

00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:18.219
where that principal's role... Really, it's infinite.

00:41:18.460 --> 00:41:21.599
Yes, absolutely. They were their measuring tapes,

00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:24.059
weren't they? It was just extraordinary. They

00:41:24.059 --> 00:41:28.320
did amazing work. Sourcing perspex. Yes. And

00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:32.440
hand sanitizer and PPE, protective equipment

00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:36.579
generally. It was an amazing time. And in fairness,

00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.739
we came to it, although I am hearing that, unfortunately,

00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.940
there's still fallout for students in particular

00:41:42.940 --> 00:41:47.440
in terms of anxiety and just they haven't maybe

00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:49.380
had the opportunities they would normally have

00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:52.300
and they're not thriving as well as they would

00:41:52.300 --> 00:41:55.619
be if it hadn't happened. Perhaps we see the

00:41:55.619 --> 00:41:58.960
value or we misunderstood the value of those

00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.599
rites of passage that happen within the system.

00:42:02.250 --> 00:42:05.449
At sixth class, at transition year, at third

00:42:05.449 --> 00:42:09.570
year, at leaving. They mean so much more to the

00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:12.730
person, to the students, than just the academic

00:42:12.730 --> 00:42:15.190
transfer, just moving on to secondary school.

00:42:15.329 --> 00:42:20.010
There was so many, a whole choreography, a whole

00:42:20.010 --> 00:42:23.130
theatre around that transition that certain years

00:42:23.130 --> 00:42:26.130
missed. Yeah, absolutely. I hope we're able to

00:42:26.130 --> 00:42:28.369
carry those lessons. Certainly any school I go

00:42:28.369 --> 00:42:30.230
to these days, I still see the markings on the

00:42:30.230 --> 00:42:34.030
tarmac in the yard. I must remind, you know,

00:42:34.050 --> 00:42:36.070
what must that have been like those days when

00:42:36.070 --> 00:42:38.710
somebody said we need to... Social distancing,

00:42:38.989 --> 00:42:42.190
keep two metres apart. Yeah. Everywhere. Walk

00:42:42.190 --> 00:42:44.969
on the left, walk on the right, you know. So

00:42:44.969 --> 00:42:46.510
anyway, we'll leave those behind, leave those

00:42:46.510 --> 00:42:49.989
thoughts to one side, acknowledging that, you

00:42:49.989 --> 00:42:51.730
know, again, the principal's role appears to

00:42:51.730 --> 00:42:54.110
be infinite. It is a challenge. It's a challenge

00:42:54.110 --> 00:42:56.289
at all levels of the system to recruit and to

00:42:56.289 --> 00:42:58.829
retain because it won't be getting them into

00:42:58.829 --> 00:43:01.909
the system, but keeping them there. I'd like

00:43:01.909 --> 00:43:04.010
to, if I can, just again return to the Grace

00:43:04.010 --> 00:43:06.949
Report and its particular focus on Catholic education,

00:43:07.110 --> 00:43:10.650
because it has a lot to say also about ethos,

00:43:10.650 --> 00:43:13.610
characteristics, spirit and religious education.

00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:16.280
And starting with the last one, the religious

00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:19.239
education turned out to be of great concern to

00:43:19.239 --> 00:43:22.500
them. The quality of religious education and

00:43:22.500 --> 00:43:25.440
the quantity and the number of schools. I mean,

00:43:25.460 --> 00:43:28.500
we're supposed to be doing two hours a week on

00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:30.760
each timetable, but there's a lot of schools

00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:34.750
not doing that. But what was even more concerning

00:43:34.750 --> 00:43:37.949
was the quality of what was being taught in some

00:43:37.949 --> 00:43:40.150
RE classes. Now, we never like to tire everybody

00:43:40.150 --> 00:43:43.030
with the same brush, but particularly for senior

00:43:43.030 --> 00:43:45.670
cycle who are not doing the Leaving Cert. Because,

00:43:45.730 --> 00:43:47.869
as you know, with the RE programme, there's a

00:43:47.869 --> 00:43:52.130
Junior Cert and a Leaving Cert RE programme for

00:43:52.130 --> 00:43:55.349
the exam. But then it's an optional subject,

00:43:55.409 --> 00:43:58.070
but they have to do something else if they're

00:43:58.070 --> 00:43:59.570
not doing the exam. They have to do another RE

00:43:59.570 --> 00:44:02.030
programme. And my sense is that Currently, the

00:44:02.030 --> 00:44:04.510
majority of Catholic schools are offering the

00:44:04.510 --> 00:44:06.610
junior, are following the junior cycle curriculum.

00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:09.349
Yes. And that the ones who aren't are the outliers.

00:44:09.730 --> 00:44:12.190
Yeah. Whereas when they get to senior cycle,

00:44:12.510 --> 00:44:17.289
it's very few schools offer ORI as a Leaving

00:44:17.289 --> 00:44:20.750
Cert subject. Yes. So whatever ORI is going to

00:44:20.750 --> 00:44:24.809
be delivered will be done without that framework.

00:44:25.469 --> 00:44:28.530
without that infrastructure around them of curriculum

00:44:28.530 --> 00:44:31.610
and assessment. That's the problem, because if

00:44:31.610 --> 00:44:33.949
there's no framework for the, or no, what we

00:44:33.949 --> 00:44:37.650
used to call a syllabus, but if the content is

00:44:37.650 --> 00:44:40.710
that loose, it's entirely at the discretion of

00:44:40.710 --> 00:44:44.409
the teacher what they present. At junior cycle...

00:44:44.650 --> 00:44:47.969
The CEP and the bishops brought out a very good

00:44:47.969 --> 00:44:51.230
resource for schools called Living Love. Grown

00:44:51.230 --> 00:44:53.710
Love. No, no, Grown Love is a primary. Living

00:44:53.710 --> 00:44:55.829
Love. Oh, sorry, sorry, for the post -primary.

00:44:55.849 --> 00:44:58.670
Yes, post -primary, yes, sorry, at Junior Cycle.

00:44:58.829 --> 00:45:01.710
And it's a very good resource. It's got a lot,

00:45:01.789 --> 00:45:03.909
it's based on PowerPoint presentations. We would

00:45:03.909 --> 00:45:06.550
have video clips and areas for discussion. And

00:45:06.550 --> 00:45:08.349
it's for people of all religions and none as

00:45:08.349 --> 00:45:11.070
well. Although there is a Catholic perspective,

00:45:11.449 --> 00:45:15.880
but it clarifies on each slide as relevant if

00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:18.260
it's particular to the Catholic faith or not.

00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:22.079
So it's very, very well done. I understand they're

00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:24.300
working on something similar for Senior Cycle

00:45:24.300 --> 00:45:27.300
because Senior Cycle is crying out, as you say,

00:45:27.380 --> 00:45:30.000
there are fewer students doing the Leaving Cert

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:33.039
RE program. So that means there's a significant

00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:37.219
number of fifth and sixth year students sitting

00:45:37.219 --> 00:45:41.619
in a class called RE. And you would wonder at

00:45:41.619 --> 00:45:43.460
the quality of what they're learning in those

00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:45.900
classes. And I understand from principles I've

00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:48.619
spoken to recently that there's some concern

00:45:48.619 --> 00:45:51.340
about the pressure on the timetable itself at

00:45:51.340 --> 00:45:54.559
senior cycle and how is it possible to maintain

00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:59.329
two hours per week when... It appears the NCCR,

00:45:59.369 --> 00:46:02.110
the department, continue to add in new demands.

00:46:02.610 --> 00:46:07.409
Correct. In SPHE or... Yes, SPHE and wellbeing

00:46:07.409 --> 00:46:09.530
and all of that, they're now required to do as

00:46:09.530 --> 00:46:12.489
a 300 or 400 hours at senior cycle, whereas up

00:46:12.489 --> 00:46:14.750
to relatively recently, that was at junior cycle.

00:46:14.889 --> 00:46:17.349
So it is a huge problem. And as you know, like

00:46:17.349 --> 00:46:19.730
the leafy search is the gateway to third level

00:46:19.730 --> 00:46:22.130
still, even though we'd like to think it's not

00:46:22.130 --> 00:46:25.420
as... It's not the only gateway to third level,

00:46:25.460 --> 00:46:27.659
but nevertheless, people still see it that way.

00:46:28.059 --> 00:46:31.780
So to cut out a subject to do your RE, which

00:46:31.780 --> 00:46:36.219
is a non -exam subject, students are not going

00:46:36.219 --> 00:46:38.539
to buy into that. It's very, very difficult then

00:46:38.539 --> 00:46:42.400
to fit in your SPHE and your wellbeing and your

00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:44.900
RE and anything else that you might want to add

00:46:44.900 --> 00:46:48.320
to that. So tricky one. A tricky one. Come back

00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:50.940
to our Grace Report then. And if I can, my own

00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:52.539
pet subject, I know it's one that's close to

00:46:52.539 --> 00:46:55.340
your heart in terms of the preparation of leaders

00:46:55.340 --> 00:46:59.480
or the support of leaders within the system.

00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:01.019
I know the Grace Report has a number of things

00:47:01.019 --> 00:47:03.199
to say about that and what's needed. Yeah, for

00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:06.219
sure. There's no doubt about it. They're very

00:47:06.219 --> 00:47:10.179
strong on the need to develop leaders throughout

00:47:10.179 --> 00:47:13.579
the system. And in fairness, there are things

00:47:13.579 --> 00:47:16.320
happening that there isn't a concerted effort

00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:18.400
in Ireland. People are doing things like the

00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:20.940
Trust Bodies, for example, run very good, maybe

00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:25.300
short courses for their teachers, potential leaders.

00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:27.980
Aspiring leaders, as they call it. Exactly. Deputy

00:47:27.980 --> 00:47:32.420
principals, etc. To have something that would

00:47:32.420 --> 00:47:36.380
be greater recognition for is what they're crying

00:47:36.380 --> 00:47:38.059
out for here. And I think it's a valid point.

00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:40.099
I think we do need to have people in the system

00:47:40.099 --> 00:47:43.400
who will be able to take over in the future as

00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:45.800
principals or deputies. And even within the school,

00:47:45.860 --> 00:47:48.420
you do need to have committed leaders throughout

00:47:48.420 --> 00:47:52.440
the school to promote the Catholic ethos. And

00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:55.280
I think they need to do a little bit more. I

00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:57.119
think we all need to do a little bit more work

00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:00.409
in that area. Absolutely. Any final words on

00:48:00.409 --> 00:48:02.650
the Grace Report? If there was one of those recommendations,

00:48:02.869 --> 00:48:07.190
would you think the sine qua non, if you like,

00:48:07.309 --> 00:48:09.670
what's the big one? Well, the one I wouldn't

00:48:09.670 --> 00:48:16.590
choose is that a requirement to principals or

00:48:16.590 --> 00:48:19.230
deputy principals be required to have a qualification

00:48:19.230 --> 00:48:23.769
in faith -based school leadership. I think I

00:48:23.769 --> 00:48:26.170
don't like the idea of that. I would prefer that

00:48:26.170 --> 00:48:29.440
the The commitment to faith -based education

00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.440
comes about through more of an organic process

00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.639
and a dynamic process. I think a qualification

00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:39.440
would just end up being a tick box. And interestingly

00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:43.059
enough, when I worked in LDS, we considered that

00:48:43.059 --> 00:48:46.039
you would have not just for faith -based schools,

00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:48.719
but for all schools. And interestingly enough,

00:48:48.739 --> 00:48:52.980
at that time, in the early, whatever, 2007. time

00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:55.599
around that time the department rejected it too

00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:58.400
they weren't pushed about having a qualification

00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:02.579
specifically for being a principal okay obviously

00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:04.440
you have to have your basic degree and then but

00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:06.639
because there are so many different ways you

00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:08.980
can contribute contribute to both the school

00:49:08.980 --> 00:49:11.139
and your own professional development it doesn't

00:49:11.139 --> 00:49:13.260
have to be a piece of paper so it's not that

00:49:13.260 --> 00:49:15.559
you don't want people to develop or to better

00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:18.360
themselves so that they can become really good

00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:21.960
leaders but it's about how they do that are being

00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:24.559
recognized in more than one way. And I would

00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:28.380
feel the same about the faith -based school leadership,

00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:32.480
that having a qualification is not going to do

00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:35.940
it. So the whole thing of accountability is another

00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:40.760
one that they've raised. Again, how you do the

00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:43.219
accountability. Accountability can be helpful.

00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:45.880
I'm thinking of the Looking at Our Schools document

00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:47.739
that came out a number of years ago, a long time

00:49:47.739 --> 00:49:50.719
ago now, initially, actually did improve the

00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:53.219
quality of teaching and learning. But it's how

00:49:53.219 --> 00:49:58.500
it was used was really good. It wasn't used as...

00:49:58.889 --> 00:50:00.789
you must do this, this and this and tick the

00:50:00.789 --> 00:50:03.210
box when you have it done. It was the statements

00:50:03.210 --> 00:50:05.909
of best practice. Effective and very effective.

00:50:06.210 --> 00:50:08.730
Yeah. And that gave you the sense of where the

00:50:08.730 --> 00:50:11.230
standards were. And I think it worked very well

00:50:11.230 --> 00:50:12.809
from that. It's interesting you say that, because

00:50:12.809 --> 00:50:16.309
looking at this document does seem fresh. Yes.

00:50:16.369 --> 00:50:18.489
When you look at it now, even though it's been

00:50:18.489 --> 00:50:22.969
in the system for quite some time, your career,

00:50:23.070 --> 00:50:25.630
particularly in leadership, spans a time when

00:50:25.630 --> 00:50:29.559
the inspectorate, upped its game, shall we say,

00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:33.079
and the introduction of systems of what were,

00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:38.199
you know, a gentle dipping of the toe in the

00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:40.440
water of accountability, shall we say, and raising

00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:43.820
that accountability register. So you might just

00:50:43.820 --> 00:50:46.860
say final words, if I can, about the system,

00:50:47.019 --> 00:50:51.760
the inspectorate, how that has changed and maybe

00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:55.340
leading into this. how that is absent when it

00:50:55.340 --> 00:50:57.639
comes to characteristic spirit or faith or there's

00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:00.320
elements of that missing. Well, I think the way

00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:02.280
the inspectorate has developed is fascinating

00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:06.139
because I remember back in 1999 when I was working

00:51:06.139 --> 00:51:09.179
the JMB going into Marlborough Street when Eamon

00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:11.559
Stack was the chief inspector and he was talking

00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:15.019
about WSI, whole school inspection, and the management

00:51:15.019 --> 00:51:17.420
bodies and the unions were all there for the

00:51:17.420 --> 00:51:19.940
meeting. And there was sort of uproar, you know,

00:51:19.980 --> 00:51:21.800
no, we don't want this. Because if you remember

00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:24.480
before that, the inspections at second level

00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:26.760
were almost non -existent. They were non -existent

00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:29.139
for a number of years. So to bring in this whole

00:51:29.139 --> 00:51:33.400
school model was not, it did not go down very

00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:36.280
well. But over time, and in fairness to the various

00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:39.480
chief inspectors during that time, they did modify

00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:43.099
and it became whole school evaluation. The idea

00:51:43.099 --> 00:51:46.690
was. that the school would evaluate itself. It

00:51:46.690 --> 00:51:49.690
was self -evaluation, and then the inspectors

00:51:49.690 --> 00:51:50.929
would come in from the outside. Would moderate

00:51:50.929 --> 00:51:52.909
that self -evaluation. And moderate it. Now,

00:51:52.929 --> 00:51:54.909
we all know that if inspectors come in, people

00:51:54.909 --> 00:51:57.769
will still jump, you know, and they will do a

00:51:57.769 --> 00:52:00.710
lot of work in preparation. So I actually think,

00:52:00.730 --> 00:52:02.889
though, the combination has worked quite well,

00:52:02.969 --> 00:52:05.449
that you're doing self -evaluation, you have

00:52:05.449 --> 00:52:07.750
your school report and your school improvement

00:52:07.750 --> 00:52:12.190
plan every year. So that has created this spirit.

00:52:12.829 --> 00:52:16.489
of school improvement within the school. So for

00:52:16.489 --> 00:52:18.650
a significant number of teachers now, they don't

00:52:18.650 --> 00:52:21.170
dread an inspection like they used to. But they

00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:24.210
are still inspections. So I think it has probably

00:52:24.210 --> 00:52:28.050
upped the standard. I've certainly seen the teaching

00:52:28.050 --> 00:52:30.909
and learning change and improve, I think improve,

00:52:31.010 --> 00:52:34.170
much more student focused now. The students are

00:52:34.170 --> 00:52:36.170
much more active in class. There's so many different

00:52:36.170 --> 00:52:38.369
methodologies and strategies being used in the

00:52:38.369 --> 00:52:41.530
classroom than there were before. Like this didactic

00:52:41.530 --> 00:52:44.309
standing at the blackboard is long gone. Long

00:52:44.309 --> 00:52:46.610
gone. So there's so many different, and the flipped

00:52:46.610 --> 00:52:48.570
classroom. There's so many things now that the

00:52:48.570 --> 00:52:51.250
students, that help them to enjoy. They're learning.

00:52:51.309 --> 00:52:53.230
And they're part of the norm. Exactly. Which

00:52:53.230 --> 00:52:56.510
were, even in my years as a principal, were seen

00:52:56.510 --> 00:52:58.730
as innovations. Yes. And now, well, that's the

00:52:58.730 --> 00:53:01.889
norm. Exactly. They're the norm. Yeah. I'm remembering

00:53:01.889 --> 00:53:05.250
early noughties when Anne Looney in the NCCA

00:53:05.250 --> 00:53:09.429
was beginning those steps around junior cycle

00:53:09.429 --> 00:53:12.809
reform or, you know, taking on that and realising

00:53:12.809 --> 00:53:15.530
and trying to define that narrative for us that

00:53:15.530 --> 00:53:18.130
this was all connected. School development planning

00:53:18.130 --> 00:53:22.380
was morphing into, school planning, self -evaluation

00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:25.360
and curriculum reform. Ultimately, it was going

00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:27.460
to have an impact in the classroom. Yes. And

00:53:27.460 --> 00:53:30.900
I think you'd have to say now in 2025. It did

00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:32.280
happen. It did have an impact. And continues

00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:35.079
to have an impact in the classroom. It's evolving

00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:38.239
all the time. Our current challenge now is how

00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:41.570
to handle AI. Yes. But we don't go there because

00:53:41.570 --> 00:53:44.329
that's the subject of another conversation. Absolutely

00:53:44.329 --> 00:53:47.610
fascinating. One final word, as I said, about

00:53:47.610 --> 00:53:51.650
the inspection or the accountability. There is

00:53:51.650 --> 00:53:54.369
very little accountability within Catholic education,

00:53:54.610 --> 00:53:57.349
per se, just for itself. Yes. Obviously, all

00:53:57.349 --> 00:53:59.570
schools, all Catholic schools, primary, secondary,

00:53:59.750 --> 00:54:02.840
whatever, are subject to the same. rigorous,

00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:05.239
we'd have to say rigorous now, compliance check

00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:08.099
of various bodies, including the, you know, whether

00:54:08.099 --> 00:54:10.880
that's TUSLA or the Department of Health or other

00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:14.239
bodies. And of course, the inspectorate in terms

00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:18.579
of standards. It seems there's a missing link

00:54:18.579 --> 00:54:22.119
or there's a gap there in terms of characteristic

00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:26.219
spirit or that part of us, the system that we

00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:28.989
cherish so much. Absolutely. And ironically,

00:54:29.349 --> 00:54:33.449
the ETBs and Educate Together have their ethos

00:54:33.449 --> 00:54:36.929
frameworks and the Catholic sector doesn't have

00:54:36.929 --> 00:54:40.630
an equivalent. But I know individual Catholic

00:54:40.630 --> 00:54:42.789
organizations like the Jesuits, for example,

00:54:42.809 --> 00:54:45.530
have put a lot of work into a project which I

00:54:45.530 --> 00:54:49.559
would love to see. being expanded. So they become

00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:53.920
more like the dialogue schools that Loven Bove

00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:58.159
from Belgium was talking about. I think that

00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:03.409
idea is a good one. is actually operated. But

00:55:03.409 --> 00:55:05.329
I think it probably is a good idea in the long

00:55:05.329 --> 00:55:07.190
run to have something like that, but not the

00:55:07.190 --> 00:55:09.210
more prescriptive, you must do this, this, and

00:55:09.210 --> 00:55:11.510
this. But the beauty of what I picked up from

00:55:11.510 --> 00:55:14.210
the Jesuit one was that they're starting from

00:55:14.210 --> 00:55:17.329
the Jesuit charism and their tenets for Catholic

00:55:17.329 --> 00:55:21.070
education. And the Ignatian paradigm. Yeah, and

00:55:21.070 --> 00:55:22.730
they built up. And then the schools, I think,

00:55:22.730 --> 00:55:25.659
would have quite a say. Plenty of flexibility

00:55:25.659 --> 00:55:28.539
for them to think about those issues and look

00:55:28.539 --> 00:55:30.920
at how they're happening in the school. And that's

00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:32.679
the direction I'd like to see. I must give Jonathan

00:55:32.679 --> 00:55:34.559
a shout and see would he come on and talk to

00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:36.420
us a little bit about that. Absolutely. It would

00:55:36.420 --> 00:55:39.159
be a fascinating area for discussion. I have

00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:42.639
your last question now. We're already gone over.

00:55:42.659 --> 00:55:45.079
We need another 50p for the meter if we stay

00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:49.059
here much longer. It's a question I love asking

00:55:49.059 --> 00:55:53.670
sixth years. You know, when I'm... saying goodbye

00:55:53.670 --> 00:55:56.469
to them or wishing them well or preparing them

00:55:56.469 --> 00:55:59.849
for their final rite of passage. If you were

00:55:59.849 --> 00:56:03.670
to return either to APTCS or to the system in

00:56:03.670 --> 00:56:06.829
10 years' time, as I say to the students, if

00:56:06.829 --> 00:56:08.389
you were coming back to your school in 10 years'

00:56:08.489 --> 00:56:10.710
time, what are the things that you would hope

00:56:10.710 --> 00:56:13.550
would still be here? What do you hope we don't

00:56:13.550 --> 00:56:18.289
lose? Wherever the innovations or AI or further

00:56:18.289 --> 00:56:20.150
research takes us, what are we going to make

00:56:20.150 --> 00:56:22.690
sure we don't lose? And then, of course, the

00:56:22.690 --> 00:56:25.070
collatery of that. Is there anything we might

00:56:25.070 --> 00:56:28.690
hope that we'd have let go? OK, well, not lose.

00:56:28.789 --> 00:56:32.489
I hope we never lose the heart that's in Irish

00:56:32.489 --> 00:56:36.989
education. It stemmed from centuries ago, from

00:56:36.989 --> 00:56:40.369
the hedge school days, where it was the love

00:56:40.369 --> 00:56:44.170
of learning and it was the acknowledgement of

00:56:44.170 --> 00:56:48.119
the value of education. And I had the benefit

00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:50.579
of that in my own home growing up in a big family

00:56:50.579 --> 00:56:53.860
that wasn't exactly rich, but there was a richness

00:56:53.860 --> 00:56:58.280
in terms of education. And in particular, in

00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:01.659
the Catholic education sphere, that that approach

00:57:01.659 --> 00:57:05.780
is relevant to the time. So in 10 years time,

00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:09.159
that it's not an old fashioned the way we used

00:57:09.159 --> 00:57:12.500
to do, but it'll be as relevant to that, to its

00:57:12.500 --> 00:57:16.130
time. as it is now, or maybe even more so. But

00:57:16.130 --> 00:57:18.889
that will be future, forward looking, future

00:57:18.889 --> 00:57:22.190
looking. Wonderful. And it's time to finish on

00:57:22.190 --> 00:57:24.989
negative. Let's try and frame that. What do we

00:57:24.989 --> 00:57:27.969
need to let go? What do you hope is improved,

00:57:28.230 --> 00:57:31.530
shall we say, or better? Yeah. Well, I suppose

00:57:31.530 --> 00:57:34.949
part of the problem is always the resourcing,

00:57:35.010 --> 00:57:37.190
but, you know, that we have enough money to provide

00:57:37.190 --> 00:57:39.769
the training courses and stuff. And we never

00:57:39.769 --> 00:57:45.050
do have enough of that. But maybe let go a little

00:57:45.050 --> 00:57:48.269
bit more of the territorial part and work more

00:57:48.269 --> 00:57:52.110
together. And that includes, say, the management

00:57:52.110 --> 00:57:57.849
bodies and the patron bodies and, you know, the

00:57:57.849 --> 00:58:00.889
training for principals and for leaders in schools

00:58:00.889 --> 00:58:04.949
generally. Irish, thanks so much. We're after

00:58:04.949 --> 00:58:08.769
covering so much ground and loved hearing the

00:58:08.769 --> 00:58:12.699
stories of Kenya and netball. Thank you for your

00:58:12.699 --> 00:58:15.719
time and for your generosity in sharing your

00:58:15.719 --> 00:58:17.900
experience and insights. And we wish you well.

00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:20.639
Thank you. As you begin or you continue the next

00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:22.940
chapter that you're on. Indeed. Thank you very

00:58:22.940 --> 00:58:24.519
much, Nicky. Thanks, Irish. Best of luck. God

00:58:24.519 --> 00:58:27.519
bless. You've been listening to Education Nation,

00:58:27.780 --> 00:58:30.119
brought to you from the offices of the Irish

00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:34.219
Catholic newspaper. I am Nicky Cudahy. You can

00:58:34.219 --> 00:58:36.059
follow us on the streaming platform that you've

00:58:36.059 --> 00:58:39.739
used today. If you like what you've heard. Share

00:58:39.739 --> 00:58:41.679
the episode with your colleagues or others who

00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:44.400
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00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:45.019
Nation.