WEBVTT

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The second show I ever saw was the Ramones on

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the end of the century tour. And I was really

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keen on them. I looked like a mini Ramone. I

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mean, I had all that going on. And then I went

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to that. They came and played the local university

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in Norwich. Everything went dark. And then the

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backdrop rolled down. One, two, three, four.

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Hey, we're the Ramones. Bam. And at that point,

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I've never, ever experienced anything like it

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in my life. And I know it's a cliche now. And

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everyone goes, oh, my life changed for the rest

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of it. But it suddenly opened my mind. overwhelming

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sense of electric power that came off the stage

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was just like nothing i'd ever you know everything's

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interconnected the hi -hat is doing its thing

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and then the bass and the guitar it's all like

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that's why you've got all different tonal frequencies

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that thing cutting your head off because it's

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just like a block of noise you know with joey

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sitting on top of it and yeah that and it's not

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easy to do that that's why most punk bands sound

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shit in hindsight they weren't as good as the

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ramones you know Hi, everybody. This is Dennis

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Black, and welcome to the Black and Wyatt Records

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podcast. This week, host Mike McCarthy talks

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with musician and promoter Rupert Orton. Rupert's

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life and career revolve around live music. He's

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a mover and a shaker within the Take Me to the

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River initiative, working with Boo Mitchell,

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Carla Thomas, and the High Rhythm Section. in

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educating students about the origins of R &B

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and soul. Rupert has hosted his own program out

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of Great Britain since 2020 called The Pink Lemonade

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Radio Show, available at totallywired .com. And

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now, here's Rupert Orton. I'd kind of like to

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start with the Jim Jones review song because

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we know we got that. We know we have that. Okay.

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And it lets everybody know that you're in the

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game. Yeah. All right. Well, I haven't been in

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that game for 11 years. Well, you're a smart

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man. Are we rolling? Yeah. Okay. Did we get the

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authentic Rupert Orton laugh? Okay, good. Hopefully

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there'll be a few more. Maybe not. Maybe there'll

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be the Rupert Orton authentic tears. Okay. I'll

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be crying by then. Mike, let me finish. Not because

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of the podcast, because of being in Memphis for

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a few months. Well, yeah, because we're living

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under martial law at the moment. Martial law.

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Well, that's because the regular law didn't work.

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Well, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. I wish we were

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living under some sort of pothole law that, you

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know, wait till those tanks hit the Memphis potholes

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and they'll be turned over. Well, that's it.

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Protesters won't have to do it. Yeah, exactly.

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But what would be a first good one to come in

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with? the first album which is hey hey hey hey

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which is a little richard song and the significance

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of that is that's the first song we ever played

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okay and it was we've gone to this tiny little

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rehearsal room and kind of like you know, because

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we weren't mates. Do you know what I mean? It's

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everyone kind of came together. We were like

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on this mission. You didn't meet in design school.

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No, no. It's not like, you know, the cliche of

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like, well, we're all 13, 14 and let's form a

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band. It was like, we had an idea and the idea

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was to execute it as well as we could. A few

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people came in and out until it got to the final

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lineup. But yeah, it was, the idea was what Jim

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and I had originally discussed and it was how

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do we execute this as hard and as loud and as

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strongly as possible. And Jim, was really good

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at finding songs that kind of sum that up. And

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one of them was this little known Little Richard

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song called Hey, Hey, Hey, which I think the

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Beatles had done a version of, but we just turbocharged

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it. I think about Kansas City. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's it. That's it. It's a medley between Kansas

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City. But our one was just Hey, Hey, Hey. Didn't

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have any of that Kansas City bollocks. It was

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just like full on. Okay. But Jim had suggested

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we do this. So we all kind of learned it. and

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then we got in the rehearsal room everyone's

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like looking at each other and it's like and

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off we went and then by the end of it we just

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knew we had it I mean not the song I mean we

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had what we needed to go through we knew we had

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the essence of what that band was going to be

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about and it's the only time I've ever experienced

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that playing in bands that from the very first

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time we played together we knew we had something

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A giant in Alabama, oh yeah A people bold and

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merry and a good old man Hey, hey, hey, hey Woo

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-hoo -hoo! Thanks for being on the show. It's

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a pleasure, Mike. It's great to see you again,

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mate. Yeah, it's good to see you too. I don't

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even know why you're here. Nor do I. Actually,

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do you want to know why I'm here? Well, there's

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a million segues, but yes, go ahead. I kind of

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came here by osmosis because... I was at Americana

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Fest in Nashville and I got here Thursday night

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and finished there on Sunday. And I thought,

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I must go to Memphis. There must be some things

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to do. But at that point, I didn't know what

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they were. And now I do. They've all kind of

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fallen into place very quickly. And how so? It's

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just the way things happen. You know, I mean,

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one of them is I work with this project called

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Take Me to the River. and they're involved in

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a celebration of bb king's centenary tomorrow

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at bb king's on beale street so i'm going to

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that so that that in itself made sense to come

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here but then i've got other bits and pieces

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that come including what i'm doing right now

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because i had no idea i'd be doing this and here

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i am doing it so you know well i i Yes. I mean,

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we're talking about the here and now, so I can't

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even talk about what we just heard, which was

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a song by a band called the Jim Jones Review

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where you played guitar. Yeah. I just wanted

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to get that in there so that the people that

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are listening can know that you're mostly in

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music management and booking now, but you were

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once in a band, maybe more than one. Well, I

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mean, it's a little bit more complicated than

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that because... I was doing what I'm doing now

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before the Jim Jones Review. Ah, okay. And then

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the Jim Jones Review was like a 10 -year period

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of my life in between doing it and then coming

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back to it after it finished. So it all kind

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of fitted together, but it isn't like I did this

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immediately after the Jim Jones Review. I was

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already doing it. When did you leave the review?

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I didn't leave it. The band just sort of naturally

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finished in October 2014. And how long had you

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been with them? well i was a co -founder with

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jim um in 2006 i think oh wow so whatever that

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is eight years or something right so a good run

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yeah yeah longer than we thought it was gonna

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be i mean i think when we originally started

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i mean the reason it's if you want to talk about

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this in a little bit of detail i used to work

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i used to work at a club called the spits in

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spitfields market in east london and um i was

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a promoter there i used to put on shows and um

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you know, they're quite a bit of a scene kind

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of built up around the night size putting up,

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which we're putting on called not same old blues

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crap, which I took the name from the fat possum

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sampler records. Cause I thought it succinctly

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summed up how I felt about traditional blues.

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Like I loved the real thing, but you know, white

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guys playing trad blues and not adding anything

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to it. Didn't really, didn't really do it for

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me anyway. And then I got to know. jim from him

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coming to my nights but also i used to promote

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his old band black moses and then that kind of

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ran out of steam and uh of all things we were

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at our um launch party for a jazz festival and

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um we were just talking and we were wondering

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it's like why aren't any bands playing proper

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rock and roll anymore and by proper rock and

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roll It's quite a unique feel of what that proper

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rock and roll meant. You know what I mean? It

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wasn't. And we happened to kind of sink in what

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we felt that thing was. And it could be the Ramones.

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It could be Little Richard. It could be the birthday

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party. It could be the cramps. But it could be

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Johnny Funders. But it's that kind of full blown

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intensity kind of abandon of your emotions, rock

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and roll. And it was like a sort of. you know

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metaphorical switch dropped at that point and

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then it was like let's put this together and

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it's what happened and like within a few I mean

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our first show was sold out like pretty much

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from the get -go it started to pick up a momentum

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which was kind of amazing really out of East

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London well yeah that's where the club was but

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I mean I think I was living in North London at

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the time but anyway it came out of London and

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it soon built up and you know then we I was in

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a position a year or two down the line where

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the band was really busy, but I was also running

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my promotions business as well. I remember I'd

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been in Los Angeles on holiday and I was coming

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back on the plane and I just had too much stuff

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and I thought, I've got to commit to one or the

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other. And so we had a meeting with the band.

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I think this was 2009, late 2009. We were in

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a crappy wine bar in... central london do you

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know i mean like a you know not a rock and roll

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place you have the worst luck with you know i

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know it's like me and the service industry have

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not connected in any shape I mean, I'm not going

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to go into details. We probably come to the green

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tea later in the hotels, but it's just a problem.

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It's just perennial. Do you often not book somewhere

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because you know they have lousy service? I'd

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like to put this shitty punk band into this place,

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but God, they're going to be treated horribly.

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But we'll come to that. I think it has come to

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that. Yeah, I know. I mean, we're going off on

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a service tangent a bit too early. But we had

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this meeting in this wine bar and it was like,

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we've got the opportunity to go for this if we

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all commit to it. Or we just do it as a bit of

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fun, as a bit of a hobby. And everyone was agreed

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we'd do it and give it our kind of full -blown

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commitment, which we all did. And yeah, we did.

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I put my promotions to one side. They all put

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their bits and pieces to one side, the other

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guys. And yeah, it blew up. Well, how many proper

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releases did you have? Three albums. Three albums?

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Okay, what were they called? The first one was

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self -titled. The second one was called Burning

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Your House Down. And the third one was called

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The Savage Heart. Okay, all right. So they're

00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:04.720
out there. You can find those things. Yeah, yeah.

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I think, yeah, they're all out there. But I think

00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:11.179
when the band finished, everything finished.

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So I think the vinyl copies, especially the second

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one, quite collectible now because you can't

00:14:17.090 --> 00:14:19.029
buy them commercially if we're going to play

00:14:19.029 --> 00:14:21.450
jim jones of you song play a song called princess

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princess and the frog which is off the first

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album and i remember jim came in with that pretty

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much fully formed and we couldn't quite play

00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:33.440
it right i don't know there was something wasn't

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gelling on it and then we came back to it again

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a couple of weeks later or a month later and

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it just slammed okay it's just that feeling you

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:42.639
get like and there was a lot of that with the

00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:44.139
jim jones review where songs would just come

00:14:44.139 --> 00:14:45.960
together naturally and you just knew they were

00:14:45.960 --> 00:17:09.140
hot straight away Just wait and see What is this?

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You're growing in my hand So let me ask you this

00:18:51.789 --> 00:18:54.390
then about the Jim Jones review. You say you

00:18:54.390 --> 00:18:55.809
were already, what was the name of your booking

00:18:55.809 --> 00:19:01.670
company? Well, it is now PRB Presents. Back then,

00:19:01.690 --> 00:19:05.650
it was Not the Same Old Blues Crap. Okay, so

00:19:05.650 --> 00:19:08.190
it was different names. Well, it's essentially

00:19:08.190 --> 00:19:11.990
me doing the same thing. It kind of started as

00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:14.369
Not the Same Old Blues Crap. Yeah. Then I kind

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of... sort of condensed it down to punk rock

00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:20.980
blues yeah but now it's just the anachronym prb

00:19:20.980 --> 00:19:24.240
presents because i i promote very little punk

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rock blues now and i promote a lot of stuff outside

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that genre so it doesn't make any sense to keep

00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:32.680
it like a narrow thing but all right i mean i

00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:34.500
did my fair share of punk rock blues back in

00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:36.400
there i mean my first booking client was um t

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model ford yeah the fat possum guy yeah he's

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on my list of songs to play later well okay uh

00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.900
uh And we can do that now. But I just, my point

00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:50.119
or my question was, you obviously formed Jim

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Jones Review because you said there wasn't enough

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what you consider to be rock and roll in England

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anyway, right? No, in the world. In the world

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at the time. Yet you were booking things already.

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Yeah, but I wasn't booking rock and roll. I was

00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:05.440
booking blues. Okay. And essentially I was focused

00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.079
on one particular niche of it, which was music

00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.519
that was either played by a guy, signed to Fat

00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.420
Possum or inspired. by Fat Possum recording artists.

00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:19.140
And there wasn't very, I mean, if any, there

00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:21.420
wasn't anyone else doing that in the UK. And

00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:25.019
you were coming here to America then? I did actually

00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:28.740
once. Okay. That's actually quite an interesting

00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:31.819
story because it's when I first, I think it was

00:20:31.819 --> 00:20:35.160
when I first met you. That early? No, maybe I

00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.539
first met you because in 2014 because I came

00:20:37.539 --> 00:20:40.640
over after the band split up. Yeah. And I just

00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:42.460
come and hung in Mississippi and Memphis for

00:20:42.460 --> 00:20:44.720
a while just to kind of. Yeah, there's a photo

00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:46.940
of us all together with the family. And John

00:20:46.940 --> 00:20:49.279
seems to be about 10. So that would be 2014.

00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:51.500
Yeah, that sounds about right. So the first time

00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:56.019
I came, I didn't meet you. Did you come to Memphis?

00:20:56.299 --> 00:20:59.359
Yeah. But what actually happened was that I was

00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:01.619
working with T -Model Ford. I was working with

00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:03.920
some other guys called Black Diamond Heavies

00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:07.720
from Chattanooga. And things were starting to

00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:10.779
build of what I was doing. and I was working

00:21:10.779 --> 00:21:12.579
for this venue called The Spitz, and I started

00:21:12.579 --> 00:21:14.319
to put on these festivals called The Spitz Festival

00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:18.180
of Blues. And I thought, well, if I'm doing this,

00:21:18.220 --> 00:21:20.579
I need to book the bands that are making this

00:21:20.579 --> 00:21:22.480
music firsthand, not the people who are copying

00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.920
them. And so I convinced Alice, my girlfriend,

00:21:26.059 --> 00:21:29.339
that we should go for a driving holiday from

00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:32.460
Memphis to New Orleans. And that's exactly what

00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:35.599
we did. So I think that was around 2005, something

00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:38.220
like that. And then I drove down from Memphis

00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:40.980
to Clarksdale, through Vicksburg, all the way

00:21:40.980 --> 00:21:43.599
down to New Orleans. And this is just after Katrina

00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:45.799
as well. So it was pretty shell -shocked. But

00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.079
yeah, and I just booked acts all the way down.

00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:49.799
And then they all came and played the festival.

00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.579
They flew over. Yeah. But the point I was going

00:21:52.579 --> 00:21:55.140
to make, which I felt really kind of illuminating

00:21:55.140 --> 00:21:57.079
for me. Well, there's two really big important

00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:00.990
points. The first one is that... Up until that

00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:06.170
point, Memphis, Mississippi, Louisiana, I'd listened

00:22:06.170 --> 00:22:09.890
to music from that area all my life. But I had

00:22:09.890 --> 00:22:12.769
an imaginary version of it in my head because

00:22:12.769 --> 00:22:14.150
I'd never been here. Do you know what I mean?

00:22:14.150 --> 00:22:16.170
It was formed by listening to the music and reading

00:22:16.170 --> 00:22:19.029
books and seeing films. And as you know, when

00:22:19.029 --> 00:22:21.289
you go somewhere for real, you're confronted

00:22:21.289 --> 00:22:24.430
by the reality of it. And then I had to kind

00:22:24.430 --> 00:22:27.500
of obviously... reappraise the reality against

00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:30.160
my sort of quasi fantasy of it so that was a

00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:31.960
really interesting process i mean the music remained

00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.500
the same but the what what happened in your mind

00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:38.160
when you did that the comparison i think you

00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.640
were prepared to be let down no no it wasn't

00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.359
it wasn't being let down it was just a it was

00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:47.900
just like i'd only ever been in new york and

00:22:47.900 --> 00:22:49.700
los angeles up to that point i've never been

00:22:49.700 --> 00:22:51.900
into you know i've never been into the heartlands

00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:55.019
of america um so that was it was just a really

00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:57.059
interesting and educational point of view but

00:22:57.059 --> 00:22:59.680
the second point was i'd never ever seen american

00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.339
poverty before and obviously driving down to

00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:05.819
new orleans around katrina time it was absolutely

00:23:05.819 --> 00:23:08.740
devastating and so that was you know you grow

00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:11.000
up in the uk and you'd like watch tv and it's

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.539
starsky and hutch and all the rest of it and

00:23:13.539 --> 00:23:16.079
okay yeah the blues guys influenced the stones

00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:17.640
and all the rest of it but there was a kind of

00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.839
like a romanticized glamour to it you know i

00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.839
mean and the rea the reality was obviously quite

00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.200
brutal yeah there's still oppression despite

00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:31.450
all the help from all corners there's still oppression

00:23:31.450 --> 00:23:34.589
yeah and because of oppression something real

00:23:34.589 --> 00:23:37.869
comes out of it but doesn't mean that that's

00:23:37.869 --> 00:23:39.369
good for all the people that suffer through it

00:23:39.369 --> 00:23:41.670
that aren't artists yeah artists seem to come

00:23:41.670 --> 00:23:43.490
out of it okay because they've found a way to

00:23:43.490 --> 00:23:46.450
cope with it yeah no absolutely i agree but yeah

00:23:46.450 --> 00:23:49.450
that was that was my first experience 2005 2006

00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:52.049
and then i've come regularly ever since huh 2006

00:23:52.049 --> 00:23:55.690
okay hmm so what is that that's nearly 20 years

00:23:55.690 --> 00:23:58.470
ago isn't it yeah yeah but you do come over here

00:23:58.470 --> 00:24:02.970
quite a bit yeah and so how um okay so before

00:24:02.970 --> 00:24:04.829
we get into anything else let's play a t -model

00:24:04.829 --> 00:24:08.170
ford song yeah nobody gets me down and in this

00:24:08.170 --> 00:24:10.970
this this track i mean i could tell you a short

00:24:10.970 --> 00:24:13.950
story about t -model ford is that i'd called

00:24:13.950 --> 00:24:17.899
my as i said before i called my um promotions

00:24:17.899 --> 00:24:20.099
not the same old blues crap because I just like

00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:23.279
the immediacy and the sort of the succinctness

00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.400
to the statement that you knew exactly what you

00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:29.099
were getting and I was just booking friends of

00:24:29.099 --> 00:24:31.240
mine up until that point I only did a few shows

00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:34.160
but before I did it I emailed Fat Possum and

00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.480
I said I hope you don't mind but I'm I'd like

00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.299
to use this as the name of my club nights and

00:24:38.299 --> 00:24:40.119
I think Bruce Watson emailed me back and said

00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:42.279
yeah sure no worries as long as you keep him

00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.259
within the spirit of what the label's about and

00:24:45.259 --> 00:24:48.339
then A couple of weeks later, and like I'd only,

00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:50.420
you know, I'd literally just promoted things

00:24:50.420 --> 00:24:53.180
down a pub in Brixton called The Windmill. I

00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:55.180
wasn't thinking further ahead than another show,

00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:57.099
let alone, you know, doing something completely

00:24:57.099 --> 00:25:00.420
left field with it. And then he emailed me or

00:25:00.420 --> 00:25:02.900
called me and he said, oh, T -Model Ford's in

00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:05.759
London on this date and the show's fallen through.

00:25:06.380 --> 00:25:08.920
Do you want to do it? And I just immediately

00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:11.359
said yes. Wow. Without looking at it, I just

00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:13.990
said, yeah. I'm on. And so I put the phone down

00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:16.349
and I called up every venue that I thought might

00:25:16.349 --> 00:25:19.609
be interested in it. And then I found this venue

00:25:19.609 --> 00:25:22.230
called The Spitz, which I subsequently started

00:25:22.230 --> 00:25:24.369
working for. And I said, yep, yep, we're in for

00:25:24.369 --> 00:25:26.369
it. And we sold the show out. We got him on local

00:25:26.369 --> 00:25:29.390
radio. The show was a great success. And then

00:25:29.390 --> 00:25:32.269
suddenly it elevated what I was doing to this

00:25:32.269 --> 00:25:35.769
other kind of level that I hadn't expected to

00:25:35.769 --> 00:25:38.349
go to. And like within, I think within like six

00:25:38.349 --> 00:25:40.950
months or nine months. I jacked in my normal

00:25:40.950 --> 00:25:44.410
job when I became a music promoter and T -Model

00:25:44.410 --> 00:25:47.450
Ford was my first client. And this song I found

00:25:47.450 --> 00:25:50.130
quite inspirational. I mean, he's talking about

00:25:50.130 --> 00:25:52.170
being stabbed and beaten up and all the rest

00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:54.150
of it. I wasn't quite going through that, but

00:25:54.150 --> 00:25:56.569
it's like coming out on top. It's an early night.

00:25:56.710 --> 00:26:00.269
Yeah. It's coming out on top against adversity.

00:26:00.930 --> 00:26:14.240
And what's it called? Nobody Gets Me Down. I'm

00:26:14.240 --> 00:29:19.569
in shock. enough tea yeah no thanks to memphis

00:29:19.569 --> 00:29:22.289
no you couldn't find it well and nashville it's

00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:24.650
been a struggle i'm sorry it's not your fault

00:29:24.650 --> 00:29:26.630
you're not responsible but you have some complaints

00:29:26.630 --> 00:29:30.990
i wouldn't say complaints and they're certainly

00:29:30.990 --> 00:29:34.130
not directed at tennessee it's just that tennessee

00:29:34.130 --> 00:29:36.309
i've just had a run of bad luck for tennessee

00:29:36.309 --> 00:29:38.869
well no every time i've gone into a coffee shop

00:29:38.869 --> 00:29:40.970
or in the hotel bar or wherever and asked for

00:29:40.970 --> 00:29:43.509
green tea there's been issues do you know what

00:29:43.509 --> 00:29:46.549
i mean but what's what's happened More than once,

00:29:46.690 --> 00:29:48.630
which happened just now when we went into the

00:29:48.630 --> 00:29:51.490
coffee shop. It's like, we don't have any green

00:29:51.490 --> 00:29:53.250
tea, but we've got this stuff. We don't know

00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:55.109
what it is. You're welcome to try it. So it's

00:29:55.109 --> 00:29:56.869
like Russian related tea. I don't know what I've

00:29:56.869 --> 00:29:58.630
been drinking over the last few days. God knows

00:29:58.630 --> 00:30:00.369
what could happen. But are you drinking caffeine

00:30:00.369 --> 00:30:02.509
in the tea? Yeah, well, that's a jet lag. I mean,

00:30:02.509 --> 00:30:05.329
I got into Nashville Thursday night, so I just

00:30:05.329 --> 00:30:07.150
got to keep going. But you don't drink caffeine

00:30:07.150 --> 00:30:09.970
in coffee. No, no. So why not just get caffeine

00:30:09.970 --> 00:30:12.410
in your coffee and be awake for your jet lag?

00:30:13.710 --> 00:30:16.700
It triggers you? I don't know. I just, I'm just

00:30:16.700 --> 00:30:19.160
more a tea person. Yeah, yeah. Well, you're English.

00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:21.819
I think, well, it's not that. I think if I'm

00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:23.880
drinking green tea, then I've got the added bonus

00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:27.839
of oxidants or whatever they're called. It's

00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:29.680
good for me. I'm glad we didn't have any accidents

00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:33.059
coming over here. Yeah. Yeah. Are you driving

00:30:33.059 --> 00:30:34.900
on the wrong side of the road? Yeah, well, I

00:30:34.900 --> 00:30:37.450
mean, you know. You get in a car with someone

00:30:37.450 --> 00:30:39.390
who's like, you know, jet lagged from England,

00:30:39.529 --> 00:30:40.990
they're going to go on the wrong side of the

00:30:40.990 --> 00:30:43.569
road once in a while, aren't they? I'm like,

00:30:43.650 --> 00:30:47.750
you sure you don't want me to drive? No, no,

00:30:47.789 --> 00:30:50.430
mate, I'm fine. I just need some green tea. Yeah,

00:30:50.430 --> 00:30:52.650
that was it. I've never heard that before. I

00:30:52.650 --> 00:30:55.130
blame the Tennessee lack of green tea on my ability

00:30:55.130 --> 00:30:56.930
to work out which side of the road I should drive.

00:30:57.009 --> 00:30:59.849
Anyway, it was a momentary lapse of concentration.

00:30:59.950 --> 00:31:01.910
I wasn't driving up like the wrong side of the

00:31:01.910 --> 00:31:04.480
freeway or something. So, okay, so earlier when

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.680
we first started talking, you were saying about

00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:08.660
how you didn't plan anything. You just knew you

00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:09.960
were going to come here and things were going

00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:11.880
to happen. Well, I mean, I obviously make things

00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:14.220
happen when I'm here, but I didn't. It's like

00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:16.359
doing this show. It's like the B .B. King thing.

00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:18.079
It's like going to Clarksdale on Wednesday. Stuff

00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:19.819
just starts happening. And I've always found,

00:31:19.900 --> 00:31:22.920
you know, Memphis and Mississippi to be quite

00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:24.940
a magical place for that, you know? Right. Okay,

00:31:25.059 --> 00:31:27.039
so, and I got to say, okay, the cover of the

00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:30.059
Memphis Flyer this week notes B .B. King's 100th

00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:32.809
birthday. Do you feel a vibe or is there an interest,

00:31:32.950 --> 00:31:35.609
authentic interest in Memphis for BB Kings 100?

00:31:36.109 --> 00:31:37.829
I've no idea. I guess you'll find out tomorrow.

00:31:38.029 --> 00:31:39.829
I'll find out tomorrow. I've absolutely no idea.

00:31:40.369 --> 00:31:41.990
Because you'll go to Beale Street and what will

00:31:41.990 --> 00:31:44.029
happen? I don't know. I've never been to Beale

00:31:44.029 --> 00:31:46.089
Street out for a night before. No, I mean, obviously

00:31:46.089 --> 00:31:48.539
I know where it is and I've walked down it. I've

00:31:48.539 --> 00:31:50.140
never been to one of those shows. So I'm quite

00:31:50.140 --> 00:31:52.420
curious to see what it's going to be like. One

00:31:52.420 --> 00:31:55.000
of the guys who's hosting it is Boo Mitchell.

00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.819
And I work with Boo. Yeah, from Royal Studios.

00:31:57.900 --> 00:31:59.440
Well, then it'll be good then. And I work with

00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:02.259
Boo as part of Take Me to the River. And obviously

00:32:02.259 --> 00:32:04.019
he's the musical director of the Memphis part

00:32:04.019 --> 00:32:06.319
of it. And we were in Nashville a few days ago

00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:09.839
as well. I've asked Boo to come on, but I could

00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:11.799
have asked him to call in. That would have been

00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:13.359
the thing. That would have freaked me out. That

00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:14.380
would have freaked... Well, that's the whole

00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:16.380
idea of a call -in is to freak someone. You should

00:32:16.380 --> 00:32:18.480
have had someone call in on your Tab Falco interview.

00:32:19.140 --> 00:32:21.279
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. That would have been

00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.299
weird. And we'll get to that. Yeah. So you're

00:32:23.299 --> 00:32:25.460
here. You told me you were coming in. You told

00:32:25.460 --> 00:32:27.319
Jack you were coming in. I guess you told Andrea.

00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:30.700
Yeah. So what all happened yesterday to you?

00:32:31.320 --> 00:32:33.819
A day in the life. It was, you know, I drove

00:32:33.819 --> 00:32:35.819
him from Nashville, which is like a really boring

00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:37.619
four hour drive or whatever it is. I checked

00:32:37.619 --> 00:32:41.279
into my hotel and then Jack's moved out to the

00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:44.259
country where his family home is. That's very

00:32:44.259 --> 00:32:45.619
true. And he wasn't sure whether he was going

00:32:45.619 --> 00:32:47.220
to be in Memphis, but he happened to be there

00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:49.579
and I'd arranged to meet Andrea. So we all went

00:32:49.579 --> 00:32:51.720
out for tacos and had a bit of a catch up. But

00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:53.220
yeah, it was lovely to see them. I hadn't seen

00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:55.660
Jack for a while. Well, that's really crazy because

00:32:55.660 --> 00:32:59.890
you actually played. on a jack and the sheik

00:32:59.890 --> 00:33:03.690
song well that was yeah jack just reached out

00:33:03.690 --> 00:33:06.049
so this is years ago actually everything is years

00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:10.589
ago yeah it is when you get older isn't it but

00:33:10.589 --> 00:33:13.029
we're setting this up to play the song which

00:33:13.029 --> 00:33:16.009
we don't know if we can find but i don't i can't

00:33:16.009 --> 00:33:19.710
remember when it was or where we did it because

00:33:19.710 --> 00:33:22.509
i think it would have been i think it was it

00:33:22.509 --> 00:33:24.539
was definitely pre -pandemic So it might have

00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:27.779
been 2018, 2017, something around that time.

00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:32.380
And my band had finished in 2014. So I hadn't

00:33:32.380 --> 00:33:33.960
really been playing. I was just been promoting

00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:35.759
and stuff like that. And Jack reached out and

00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:37.119
said, oh, we're doing a session when you're in

00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:38.720
Memphis. Do you want to just swing by and do

00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:40.180
something? And I was like, yeah, that'd be fun.

00:33:40.819 --> 00:33:43.039
And so I had to try and relearn the guitar a

00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:45.980
bit. And yeah, we just did a whole day of playing

00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:48.339
with his boys. And then it was a single and then

00:33:48.339 --> 00:33:51.279
it was released. It was a single? Yeah. Or an

00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:53.720
EP. Okay. I think there was three tracks on it

00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:56.019
and I played on two of them. Who put the EP out?

00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:58.960
I don't know. Dennis, do you know? Does that

00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.299
ring a bell? Robert would probably know. Okay,

00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.339
and I wrote down the info here. Yeah, you wrote

00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:09.219
it down. No, it's Jacko and the Sheiks, Every

00:34:09.219 --> 00:34:12.420
Little Thing Goes is the name of the EP and the

00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:15.340
song's called Losers Take All. Yeah, and also

00:34:15.340 --> 00:34:20.480
I did Wanted Dead or Alive. Okay. Yeah. What,

00:34:20.539 --> 00:34:22.300
you're saying you played on that too? Yeah, there

00:34:22.300 --> 00:34:24.239
were three tracks and I played on two of them.

00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:26.480
Oh, okay, okay. So maybe we can... I'm reading

00:34:26.480 --> 00:35:55.489
this off Google. To go I thought it would be

00:35:55.489 --> 00:40:15.780
time to say goodbye We'll be right back. I haven't

00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:18.420
heard those since I recorded them. Seriously?

00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:23.400
Yeah. What do you like about Jack? I like a number

00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:25.460
of things about him. In terms of him as a musician,

00:40:25.780 --> 00:40:30.980
I find him, you know, he's very pure. Do you

00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:34.079
know what I mean? There's no compromise there.

00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:36.840
You know, he just does what he does. And you

00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:38.780
like it or you don't like it, but it is what

00:40:38.780 --> 00:40:42.539
it is. So that's kind of very, to me, that's

00:40:42.539 --> 00:40:47.400
very inspirational. And when I discovered his

00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:50.039
music originally with the various bands he was

00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:54.099
working on, it was part of discovering all this

00:40:54.099 --> 00:40:56.260
other amazing American music that I didn't know

00:40:56.260 --> 00:40:58.900
existed at the time, which started with the Fat

00:40:58.900 --> 00:41:00.940
Possum guys and then I just worked deeper into

00:41:00.940 --> 00:41:03.059
it. So it's kind of a little bit of a magical

00:41:03.059 --> 00:41:06.480
journey and he was part of that. Then I met him

00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:10.219
and got... And funny enough, I met him when I

00:41:10.219 --> 00:41:14.059
came over here in 2014 because we were... at

00:41:14.059 --> 00:41:19.360
um deep blues festival in clarksdale and um he

00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:22.739
was playing there um i met him for a mutual friend

00:41:22.739 --> 00:41:25.159
this guy called harry grafton who i was there

00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:28.139
with and he was like it's like yeah nice to meet

00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:29.800
you do you want to step up and we'll just play

00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.480
And so I got up and played with him and did a

00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.179
whole set and didn't know any of the song. So

00:41:35.179 --> 00:41:37.260
on a personal level, that was just great because

00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:38.880
he was just like, yeah, whatever. Just come and

00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:39.940
play. Do you know what I mean? And then we've

00:41:39.940 --> 00:41:42.519
been friends ever since. So, yeah, it was lovely

00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:44.099
to meet him. So in a way of meeting him, you

00:41:44.099 --> 00:41:46.599
played with him. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

00:41:46.659 --> 00:41:48.320
I'd literally just met him for a few minutes

00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:50.949
and he says, yeah, come on. Isn't that that that

00:41:50.949 --> 00:41:54.650
sort of sense of openness and anti gatekeeping

00:41:54.650 --> 00:41:56.349
and whatever you want to call it? Isn't that

00:41:56.349 --> 00:41:58.550
fantastic? Yeah. I mean, it was complete opposite

00:41:58.550 --> 00:42:00.650
of gatekeeping. It wasn't even a gate. It was

00:42:00.650 --> 00:42:02.070
just like walks. I know. But I'm just saying

00:42:02.070 --> 00:42:05.090
in other fields like filmmaking or any other

00:42:05.090 --> 00:42:07.369
like artistic endeavor, you might encounter something

00:42:07.369 --> 00:42:09.750
that's completely opposite of that. Yeah. Yeah,

00:42:09.789 --> 00:42:11.489
absolutely. I mean, there's a few people that

00:42:11.489 --> 00:42:13.769
I've met that have been like that in a creative

00:42:13.769 --> 00:42:17.190
sense. Things just multiply. Yeah. You know.

00:42:17.759 --> 00:42:20.619
10x 20x so on and it's yeah it's really refreshing

00:42:20.619 --> 00:42:23.599
so then by the time that he did ask you to play

00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.000
with the sheiks on that ep he had already i'd

00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:27.579
known him a long time by then well you'd already

00:42:27.579 --> 00:42:32.440
played on stage and then i was recording it so

00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:35.099
it was yeah it was kind of a fast track but he

00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:37.079
didn't know anything about you or jim jones review

00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:39.780
i don't think so if it did it was probably minimal

00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:41.880
do you know i mean we we had some friends in

00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:44.820
common in the 90s you knew nothing of the existence

00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:48.440
of uh Oblivions, compulsive gamblers. A little

00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:51.679
bit, a little bit. I mean, the 90s, this is one

00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:53.300
of the things I was thinking about when you asked

00:42:53.300 --> 00:42:55.659
me to do the show earlier is sort of how I got

00:42:55.659 --> 00:42:58.440
to this point. But when I first got into music

00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:01.900
in the 80s as a kid, I was going, on the one

00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:04.719
hand, I was going to see Crass, Do They Owe Us

00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:06.360
a Living, which was on my list I sent to you.

00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.360
And then the next week, I was going to see Lowell

00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:13.260
Fulson. So I had this kind of, this kind of sort

00:43:13.260 --> 00:43:16.539
of duality at the time of like, Very, very hardcore

00:43:16.539 --> 00:43:19.579
punk rock. And then very traditional blues. Because

00:43:19.579 --> 00:43:21.980
at that point, some of the original blues guys

00:43:21.980 --> 00:43:24.679
were still touring. And so I think I saw Lowell

00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:27.039
Folsom one week and then Mississippi Slim the

00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:30.159
next. Like two incredible kind of players from

00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:32.360
back in the day. But at the same point, I was

00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:34.099
going to these punk rock shows. How old were

00:43:34.099 --> 00:43:37.480
you? 15, 14, something like that. What year were

00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:42.119
you born? 64. Okay, I'm 63. Yeah, so I'm younger

00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:44.980
than you. Well, you're the very last year of

00:43:44.980 --> 00:43:47.380
the baby boom. So I've been told, but I got none

00:43:47.380 --> 00:43:51.719
of the benefits. Well, you can't get social security.

00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:53.800
I got none of the benefits and all the negative

00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:56.199
financial. Let's play this crass song you're

00:43:56.199 --> 00:43:57.880
talking about because I'm completely ignorant

00:43:57.880 --> 00:43:59.860
of it. Do you not know about crass? I didn't

00:43:59.860 --> 00:44:04.639
need to. Right. Until now. I mean, I wasn't a

00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.519
huge, just to set the scene, I wasn't a huge

00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:11.139
Crass fan. But at the time when this song was

00:44:11.139 --> 00:44:15.010
released, which I think was 78 or 79. Crass seemed

00:44:15.010 --> 00:44:18.809
to be the most hardcore rejection of The Clash

00:44:18.809 --> 00:44:21.110
and all the other punk bands they felt had sold

00:44:21.110 --> 00:44:23.789
out. When you say hardcore, I thought 80s, but

00:44:23.789 --> 00:44:25.429
you're talking late 70s. No, no, no. This isn't

00:44:25.429 --> 00:44:27.329
hardcore, hardcore. If you listen, the sound's

00:44:27.329 --> 00:44:28.650
really interesting because you listen to it.

00:44:28.670 --> 00:44:32.150
It's quite tinny and unintentionally quite avant

00:44:32.150 --> 00:44:35.170
-garde. Unintentionally. But they were all, you

00:44:35.170 --> 00:44:38.170
know, a lot of them were these old hippies that

00:44:38.170 --> 00:44:41.409
all lived in a kind of commune in this place

00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:45.050
called Dial House in Essex countryside. And they

00:44:45.050 --> 00:44:48.269
just created, at that point they had this 12

00:44:48.269 --> 00:44:51.769
-inch single which had like 15 songs on it called

00:44:51.769 --> 00:44:54.110
Feeding of the 5 ,000. And it was like you could

00:44:54.110 --> 00:44:56.929
buy it for 50 pence or something. That was like

00:44:56.929 --> 00:44:59.230
the hardcore statement in English punk rock at

00:44:59.230 --> 00:45:00.329
the time. Do you know what I mean? It's like

00:45:00.329 --> 00:45:03.929
if you had crass with the A circled for anarchy

00:45:03.929 --> 00:45:05.670
on your back of your leather jacket, then you

00:45:05.670 --> 00:45:07.750
would, or probably not because they're all vegetarians,

00:45:07.789 --> 00:45:10.809
but on the back of your cotton, whatever. But

00:45:10.809 --> 00:45:13.289
they were... Yeah, this is extreme. And I was

00:45:13.289 --> 00:45:14.869
aware of them, but not a huge fan. But then they

00:45:14.869 --> 00:45:17.630
came to play where I lived in the time place

00:45:17.630 --> 00:45:20.530
called Norwich, which is like two hours northeast

00:45:20.530 --> 00:45:23.630
of London in a place called Norfolk in East Anglia.

00:45:24.469 --> 00:45:26.769
They came to play my local venue and I just went

00:45:26.769 --> 00:45:29.349
out of curiosity and it was one of the best shows

00:45:29.349 --> 00:45:31.289
I've ever seen in my life. It was amazing. Well,

00:45:31.349 --> 00:45:32.710
it's probably one of the first shows you've ever

00:45:32.710 --> 00:45:35.239
seen. Uh, no, I've been going to gigs for, I

00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:38.000
started going to shows in 79. So I'd been to

00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:40.980
quite, I think this was like 81. And how close

00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:43.730
was this to London? It's about two hours. Oh,

00:45:43.809 --> 00:45:45.869
so you were away from the hub quite a bit. Oh,

00:45:45.869 --> 00:45:48.610
yeah, yeah. I was way out of all of that. Do

00:45:48.610 --> 00:45:50.030
you know what I mean? I assumed you were more

00:45:50.030 --> 00:45:52.349
metropolitan. No, no. I was born in London, but

00:45:52.349 --> 00:45:54.150
my parents moved up to this place called Norfolk

00:45:54.150 --> 00:45:57.630
when I was a kid. And so I grew up in this place.

00:45:57.670 --> 00:45:59.889
Whether you liked it or not. Yeah, but you just

00:45:59.889 --> 00:46:01.710
start absorbing what's going on at the time.

00:46:01.789 --> 00:46:03.710
And with me, it was partly punk rock and it was

00:46:03.710 --> 00:46:05.889
partly blues. I'll come to the blues thing in

00:46:05.889 --> 00:46:17.760
a moment. Try it, try it, try it, get up, you

00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:19.519
can't be cooked, it fucks your mouth Then your

00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.179
product's awful, it's bad like muscle pain This

00:46:22.179 --> 00:46:24.760
is just a sample, it's up to you and me Do they

00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:27.500
own us a living? Cause they do, cause they do,

00:46:27.579 --> 00:46:30.380
oh, us a living Cause they do, cause they do,

00:46:30.420 --> 00:47:31.510
oh, us a living Cause they fucking do So that

00:47:31.510 --> 00:47:33.849
was Crass. What was the name of that song? Do

00:47:33.849 --> 00:47:36.590
They Owe Us a Living. And if there's any American

00:47:36.590 --> 00:47:39.449
sort of broadcasting standards that you've probably

00:47:39.449 --> 00:47:41.730
contravened all of them with their broadcast

00:47:41.730 --> 00:47:43.409
of that playing that song, which is brilliant.

00:47:43.610 --> 00:47:46.469
Well, so you're growing up then two hours outside

00:47:46.469 --> 00:47:48.530
of London, but you continue to go into London.

00:47:48.650 --> 00:47:51.489
Yeah. But you're interested. You've always been

00:47:51.489 --> 00:47:53.590
interested in music. You knew that was always

00:47:53.590 --> 00:47:57.469
going to be what you were doing. I did. I did.

00:47:57.590 --> 00:48:00.659
But, you know, I didn't. do it for a living till

00:48:00.659 --> 00:48:03.139
a little while later right because i had some

00:48:03.139 --> 00:48:07.480
kind of you know epiphany on the tube train i

00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:11.099
was i'd been in um i'd been promoting i had a

00:48:11.099 --> 00:48:13.219
little band together and stuff like that and

00:48:13.219 --> 00:48:16.119
i'd gone on holiday with um alice my partner

00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:22.079
to new mexico and this was 2005 and we were in

00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:24.960
an earth ship in the middle of uh the mesa in

00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:28.389
new mexico you were in a what earth ship okay

00:48:28.389 --> 00:48:32.510
which is like um it's completely off grid do

00:48:32.510 --> 00:48:33.610
you know what i mean it's got no electricity

00:48:33.610 --> 00:48:36.289
it's got no it's got no mains water or whatever

00:48:36.289 --> 00:48:38.530
it's all oh wait you're talking about my house

00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:41.690
right now yeah but this was this was like this

00:48:41.690 --> 00:48:44.050
little community on the outskirts of taos in

00:48:44.050 --> 00:48:48.969
new mexico and um when it happened the there

00:48:48.969 --> 00:48:51.869
was a big bombing attack on the london underground

00:48:51.869 --> 00:48:55.030
system on the tubes and lots of people were killed

00:48:55.030 --> 00:48:58.559
and when i came back to london um there was a

00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:00.940
real sort of like you know there was a real scary

00:49:00.940 --> 00:49:03.199
vibe and everyone was very suspicious and i remember

00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:05.019
and it was very hot because it was it was july

00:49:05.019 --> 00:49:07.340
and i remember being on the tube just sitting

00:49:07.340 --> 00:49:10.559
there and i just remember thinking wow it's like

00:49:11.050 --> 00:49:13.349
at any point someone could blow themselves up

00:49:13.349 --> 00:49:15.329
or something could happen and you know something

00:49:15.329 --> 00:49:18.250
and i wouldn't have done what i wanted to achieve

00:49:18.250 --> 00:49:20.670
in my life and at that point like a bolt just

00:49:20.670 --> 00:49:22.530
kind of kind of came it's like a lightning bolt

00:49:22.530 --> 00:49:25.349
metaphorically came down through the ground through

00:49:25.349 --> 00:49:27.329
the top of the tube station train and hit me

00:49:27.329 --> 00:49:30.469
on the head And then I resigned from my job and

00:49:30.469 --> 00:49:32.989
I got a job in a music venue, took like a pay

00:49:32.989 --> 00:49:36.949
cut of like 60%, no benefits. And yeah, it's

00:49:36.949 --> 00:49:39.230
been poverty ever since, you know. How old were

00:49:39.230 --> 00:49:45.130
you then? I think I was 36 or 37. And at this

00:49:45.130 --> 00:49:49.789
point, I guess I'm going back to your family

00:49:49.789 --> 00:49:51.530
roots and interest in music. I don't know if

00:49:51.530 --> 00:49:52.849
your parents were musically inclined. No, they

00:49:52.849 --> 00:49:55.329
weren't. They weren't. Isn't that odd? I mean,

00:49:55.349 --> 00:49:57.570
sometimes there's usually a connection there

00:49:57.570 --> 00:50:00.730
somehow. I mean, you know, they, you know, they

00:50:00.730 --> 00:50:03.269
weren't anti -music. No. But I mean, we were

00:50:03.269 --> 00:50:05.130
lucky in some ways. They'd like have the one

00:50:05.130 --> 00:50:08.289
Beatles album, which happened to be one, you

00:50:08.289 --> 00:50:10.030
know, like we're going to have a Beatles album

00:50:10.030 --> 00:50:12.610
and it happened to be Revolver. Okay. So it was

00:50:12.610 --> 00:50:15.309
the best one. One of the best ones. So, you know,

00:50:15.309 --> 00:50:17.130
like, cause we'd always play that. And then,

00:50:17.130 --> 00:50:18.809
but then you're hearing like, I can't remember

00:50:18.809 --> 00:50:20.550
12 songs on it or whatever, but you're hearing.

00:50:21.460 --> 00:50:23.940
This amazing music is your first experience of

00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:26.300
like proper, you know properly recorded and written

00:50:26.300 --> 00:50:28.440
music So things like that were were quite good,

00:50:28.539 --> 00:50:29.860
but they weren't like they didn't have huge record

00:50:29.860 --> 00:50:31.940
collections that we dive into We kind of made

00:50:31.940 --> 00:50:33.460
it up as we went along and your parents were

00:50:33.460 --> 00:50:37.119
born in the 20s. Probably no 30 30s Okay, my

00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:39.219
fault my my adoptive parents were born in the

00:50:39.219 --> 00:50:42.599
20s and they didn't have any There was no music

00:50:42.599 --> 00:50:45.739
at all in my house the television, of course.

00:50:45.860 --> 00:50:48.960
Mm -hmm, and I've always they went to see live

00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:51.199
music, but when I came along, they stopped or

00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:53.019
they just didn't do that. What about that thing?

00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:56.219
You always, I always tell people about that picture

00:50:56.219 --> 00:50:59.159
in your kitchen of Elvis, where you've got two

00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:01.739
sets of parents in different parts. Yeah. My

00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:03.679
mother's in the front row and my adopted parents,

00:51:03.860 --> 00:51:06.420
fate would have them in the back row. Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:06.500 --> 00:51:09.079
I tell you that, that, that story to go back

00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:11.820
to what I was talking about, like the reappraisal

00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:14.320
of the reality of coming here for the first time

00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:17.199
was like, realizing that people had real lives

00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:19.639
that were connected to Elvis playing in the,

00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:21.619
you know, in the fairground or Tupelo, wherever

00:51:21.619 --> 00:51:23.840
it was, you know, that these were, you know.

00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:26.460
It actually happened in real lives as opposed

00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:29.139
to this fantasy kind of, you know, imaginary

00:51:29.139 --> 00:51:31.780
thing. That's why I enjoyed the Mark Lewisham

00:51:31.780 --> 00:51:33.440
book on the Beatles or the only one that's been

00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:37.500
allowed to come out. You know, tune in because

00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:41.239
I think it does allow that to happen, which is

00:51:41.239 --> 00:51:43.739
you still want your mythology in place of what

00:51:43.739 --> 00:51:46.199
you think something was because that's sacred.

00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:49.559
But you also as an adult or you want something

00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:51.980
new to come along, especially if you're. 40 50

00:51:51.980 --> 00:51:54.400
60 years old you want to know something else

00:51:54.400 --> 00:51:56.679
about them you want to know something that strengthens

00:51:56.679 --> 00:51:59.000
the mythology yeah and usually that's reality

00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:02.340
yeah yeah because um i was just listening to

00:52:02.340 --> 00:52:05.059
some joseph campbell clip on youtube and he's

00:52:05.059 --> 00:52:07.119
talking about how mythology arises out of your

00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:10.380
own needs as a human being so everybody's take

00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:16.579
on revolver or the stones or whatever um is different

00:52:16.579 --> 00:52:19.059
and unique, although we tend to lump it all together.

00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:21.139
Yeah. We tend for it to be together. And then

00:52:21.139 --> 00:52:25.199
your job is to fill a venue with a crowd. Every

00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:26.900
single one of those people have a different take

00:52:26.900 --> 00:52:28.260
on what they're seeing. Of course, yeah. It's

00:52:28.260 --> 00:52:30.199
one thing to come over to America and go, oh,

00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:32.639
there's Louisiana, there's Mississippi, but you're

00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:35.559
actually hanging out with people. Yeah. What's

00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:39.800
that like? It's just normal reality, really,

00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:43.579
I guess. I mean, I first met Andrea when I promoted

00:52:43.579 --> 00:52:47.360
T -Model Ford. at this venue i was working at

00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:51.780
and she came along with um jason from spiritualized

00:52:51.780 --> 00:52:55.000
and we met briefly so there was a little bit

00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:57.539
of a contact there and then i can't remember

00:52:57.539 --> 00:53:01.039
how we connected in we connected in memphis i

00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:02.840
just i think i just knew that she i think maybe

00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:05.360
we was we were communicating by email and then

00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:07.980
i said i'm coming over and then we met and i

00:53:07.980 --> 00:53:11.530
think we went to wild bills back in the day had

00:53:11.530 --> 00:53:14.010
an amazing has an amazing experience in fact

00:53:14.010 --> 00:53:16.670
actually i i can remember now that first trip

00:53:16.670 --> 00:53:18.570
before i met you when i came over with alice

00:53:18.570 --> 00:53:20.590
we went up to wild bills together and it was

00:53:20.590 --> 00:53:22.690
so good we went again a couple of nights later

00:53:22.690 --> 00:53:25.750
um i don't even know what's going on there now

00:53:25.750 --> 00:53:27.590
i don't know this i mean this was 20 years ago

00:53:27.590 --> 00:53:30.110
yeah yeah it's probably changed what roads led

00:53:30.110 --> 00:53:36.440
to us meeting just gave me a copy of that is

00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:39.099
it the Shangri -La guide to Memphis? There's

00:53:39.099 --> 00:53:40.800
a guide to Memphis. Yeah, Creature Conference.

00:53:41.219 --> 00:53:43.480
Yes, he gave me a copy. He had a copy of that

00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:45.420
and he said, check all of this out. In fact,

00:53:45.579 --> 00:53:47.679
I can't remember if that was the second or the

00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:49.519
first trip. I've known Joss for a long time.

00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:54.159
Yeah. And he said we should meet. How did you

00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:56.780
meet Joss? Just putting on shows. He used to

00:53:56.780 --> 00:53:59.579
do DJing at some of my shows and so we just connected

00:53:59.579 --> 00:54:00.679
for a mutual love of music. So you didn't know

00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:02.780
each other when you were teens? No. Teenagers?

00:54:02.820 --> 00:54:05.099
No, no, not at all. How old were you when you,

00:54:05.389 --> 00:54:09.710
Did your first band? 16, 17. And who were they?

00:54:11.829 --> 00:54:13.949
Well... We're not going to cut to one of those

00:54:13.949 --> 00:54:16.010
songs, are we? You can't do it because it's virtually

00:54:16.010 --> 00:54:19.909
impossible to find any records of them. But there's

00:54:19.909 --> 00:54:23.289
a punk band in Norwich called The Pits. And funnily

00:54:23.289 --> 00:54:26.670
enough, they released a song on this compilation

00:54:26.670 --> 00:54:29.869
called Bullshit Detector. Volume two, I think

00:54:29.869 --> 00:54:31.809
it was. They're not here right now. Three volumes,

00:54:31.929 --> 00:54:33.889
but you can't find it. It's virtually impossible.

00:54:34.010 --> 00:54:36.969
But that was released by Crass. Okay. So Crass

00:54:36.969 --> 00:54:38.670
used to do these compilations where people would

00:54:38.670 --> 00:54:41.050
send in their demo tapes and they just packaged

00:54:41.050 --> 00:54:44.030
them up and put them out. And that was before

00:54:44.030 --> 00:54:46.809
I joined the band when that came out. But they

00:54:46.809 --> 00:54:49.250
asked me to be in it because they knew I was

00:54:49.250 --> 00:54:51.869
a guitarist or I could play guitar. And I did

00:54:51.869 --> 00:54:53.869
my first show. I can't remember the date or the

00:54:53.869 --> 00:54:56.630
year of it, but we were supporting the punk band

00:54:56.630 --> 00:55:00.139
Chelsea. So that's the first gig I ever played

00:55:00.139 --> 00:55:04.900
was with Chelsea. Chelsea was the original band

00:55:04.900 --> 00:55:07.239
that Billy Idol and Tony James were in before

00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:10.420
they formed Generation X. Because they then left

00:55:10.420 --> 00:55:12.920
and then created Generation X. And Billy was

00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.519
the guitarist in Chelsea. And then he became

00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:16.800
the singer in Generation X. And what year is

00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:21.000
this? 77. So you're really taking advantage of

00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.880
the punk. explosion as it happened in real time

00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:25.800
well i mean i was too young at that point i mean

00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.239
i just know in retrospect that that's what happened

00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:34.059
well when when you were 12 in 1977 did you you

00:55:34.059 --> 00:55:36.440
knew punk was happening yeah it was the dominant

00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:40.380
exciting thing and for me personally i'd like

00:55:40.380 --> 00:55:42.639
been in i've been like interested a little bit

00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:46.119
in glam rock, you know, a bit of what I saw on

00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:49.699
the local... Really? You were so young. Yeah,

00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:52.500
when I was really, really... But it was so dominant

00:55:52.500 --> 00:55:55.619
in the UK at that time. I certainly wasn't into

00:55:55.619 --> 00:55:58.699
traditional rock music like Led Zeppelin or The

00:55:58.699 --> 00:56:01.280
Stones or anything at that point. Right. It wasn't

00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:04.579
of interest. But when, I guess... punk came along

00:56:04.579 --> 00:56:07.119
it was like a condensed version of glam with

00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:09.699
a lot more aggression and that kind of attracted

00:56:09.699 --> 00:56:11.900
me to it and then i sort of just dug deeper into

00:56:11.900 --> 00:56:14.760
it to your childhood bowie sort of came off like

00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:18.239
the beatles i guess on the tube right yeah yeah

00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:21.300
i mean you were watching uh old grey whistle

00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:23.739
test and more like top of the pop top of the

00:56:23.739 --> 00:56:26.440
pops too young to watch oh really i mean because

00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:29.900
just not because it was you know that was that

00:56:29.900 --> 00:56:31.760
was more prog rock and things like that, even

00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:33.539
though Bowie was on it. Do you know what I mean?

00:56:33.639 --> 00:56:36.480
I wasn't really aware of it. I remember watching

00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:38.440
Roxy music early on and being quite intrigued

00:56:38.440 --> 00:56:40.559
by it more than I was by Bowie for some reason.

00:56:40.579 --> 00:56:43.639
I don't know why. Obviously in time you come

00:56:43.639 --> 00:56:46.079
to appreciate all this, you know, that Bowie

00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:48.380
is like an amazing talent and you know, the way

00:56:48.380 --> 00:56:50.159
he reinvented himself and all the rest of it.

00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:52.280
But you know, I was just a kid. It wasn't like

00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:54.119
something I was digging into that deeply, but

00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:56.699
punk rock made a definite connection to me. You

00:56:56.699 --> 00:56:59.539
were, knowledgeable about all that stuff before

00:56:59.539 --> 00:57:02.539
you even knew who elvis was probably no i knew

00:57:02.539 --> 00:57:04.820
who elvis was so that was always yeah but the

00:57:04.820 --> 00:57:06.199
thing of the thing the interesting thing about

00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:09.380
that point was that elvis was obviously a big

00:57:09.380 --> 00:57:12.199
figure in the 70s a cultural figure in the 70s

00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:15.960
but i couldn't connect with the elvis that i

00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:19.619
saw at the time in the mid 70s to the person

00:57:19.619 --> 00:57:22.059
i you know i'd look and read about from the late

00:57:22.059 --> 00:57:25.429
50s they seemed like so disconnected in the amount

00:57:25.429 --> 00:57:28.190
of time between the two as a young person that

00:57:28.190 --> 00:57:30.710
how could this be the same person and then when

00:57:30.710 --> 00:57:35.030
he died in 77 i was aware of that and it didn't

00:57:35.030 --> 00:57:37.210
seem it didn't come as a shock because he looked

00:57:37.210 --> 00:57:41.340
like he was quite ill it is weird The period

00:57:41.340 --> 00:57:43.960
of time from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, which from

00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:47.340
35 to 77, everything that America does is golden.

00:57:47.559 --> 00:57:51.019
It's soft culture. It impacts the entire world,

00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:53.539
even the East, to whatever degree it was allowed

00:57:53.539 --> 00:57:56.900
in. But the West wins by having rock and roll.

00:57:57.039 --> 00:57:59.199
We know it's wrong now to think that rock and

00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:00.699
roll can change the world because it kind of

00:58:00.699 --> 00:58:03.119
already did. But yet there's this need to still

00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:07.699
have or want rock and roll. I'd had real... life

00:58:07.699 --> 00:58:09.719
experiences of what it could be like the second

00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:12.440
show I ever saw was the Ramones on the end of

00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:15.519
the century tour and I was really keen on them

00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:17.860
I looked like a mini Ramone I mean I had all

00:58:17.860 --> 00:58:20.579
that going on and then I went to that they came

00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:24.019
and played the local university in Norwich and

00:58:24.019 --> 00:58:27.559
I'm sure you saw the same tour but everything

00:58:27.559 --> 00:58:30.300
went dark and then the backdrop rolled down one

00:58:30.300 --> 00:58:33.360
two three four hey we're the Ramones bam and

00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:36.090
at that point I've never ever experienced anything

00:58:36.090 --> 00:58:37.869
like it in my life. And I know it's a cliche

00:58:37.869 --> 00:58:39.449
now and everyone goes, oh, my life changed and

00:58:39.449 --> 00:58:41.449
the rest of it. But it suddenly opened my mind.

00:58:41.570 --> 00:58:45.369
And that overwhelming sense of electric power

00:58:45.369 --> 00:58:47.449
that came off the stage was just like nothing

00:58:47.449 --> 00:58:51.130
I'd ever, you know. Wait, so this is 79? No,

00:58:51.489 --> 00:58:55.090
this was early 80. Early, okay. Because the album

00:58:55.090 --> 00:58:57.070
was released in 79. Rock and roll high school

00:58:57.070 --> 00:58:59.369
era. Yeah, no, this is end of the century. So

00:58:59.369 --> 00:59:01.269
it was the album after that, I think. But it's

00:59:01.269 --> 00:59:03.489
Phil Spector. Yeah. Yeah, the one where they

00:59:03.489 --> 00:59:05.639
played the. You want to play a Ramones song?

00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:09.320
Yeah, yeah, play Rockaway Beach. Let's do it.

00:59:09.440 --> 01:01:15.269
One, two, three, four. I mean, one of the best

01:01:15.269 --> 01:01:18.710
records I heard at the time is It's Alive by

01:01:18.710 --> 01:01:24.130
the Ramones. And the whole energy and the sound

01:01:24.130 --> 01:01:26.070
of that record, you know, I was just completely

01:01:26.070 --> 01:01:30.150
obsessed with. And I've actually learned in hindsight

01:01:30.150 --> 01:01:34.150
that it's actually quite hard to be able to make

01:01:34.150 --> 01:01:36.110
a band sound that good. You know, everyone goes,

01:01:36.210 --> 01:01:37.769
oh, they're a joke band. They're like, you know,

01:01:37.789 --> 01:01:40.849
it's all like... But it's to play like that.

01:01:41.650 --> 01:01:43.929
is you know to have that power and that excitement

01:01:43.929 --> 01:01:45.489
and to go back to what we were talking about

01:01:45.489 --> 01:01:49.190
originally one of the things i mentioned when

01:01:49.190 --> 01:01:51.929
i was discussing with jim was to have that effect

01:01:51.929 --> 01:01:53.829
when we play when the jim jones review to be

01:01:53.829 --> 01:01:56.130
that single -minded yeah like that sort of like

01:01:56.130 --> 01:01:58.670
you go on and you just like and the ramones are

01:01:58.670 --> 01:02:02.010
incredibly single -minded and they're when you

01:02:02.010 --> 01:02:06.550
saw them they are blasting an american fucking

01:02:06.550 --> 01:02:10.570
message into your brain i mean even beyond america

01:02:10.570 --> 01:02:14.010
just new york really yeah um americana message

01:02:14.010 --> 01:02:17.309
of limited intellect even but it's so powerful

01:02:17.309 --> 01:02:20.409
and and single -minded that it comes across as

01:02:20.409 --> 01:02:23.889
avant -garde well i mean you know i don't want

01:02:23.889 --> 01:02:25.889
to get too down the sort of like rabbit hole

01:02:25.889 --> 01:02:29.449
of like guitar nerdery but one of the things

01:02:29.449 --> 01:02:31.489
i used to do i mean like playing in the jim jones

01:02:31.489 --> 01:02:33.949
of you was a very physical experience you had

01:02:33.949 --> 01:02:36.449
to be at the top of your game physically to do

01:02:36.449 --> 01:02:38.630
it you couldn't you couldn't busk it you went

01:02:38.630 --> 01:02:40.230
in there and you had to commit it to the fully

01:02:40.230 --> 01:02:42.590
and so before we did a tour and we toured hard

01:02:42.590 --> 01:02:46.150
most of the time you know i'd go into sort of

01:02:46.150 --> 01:02:48.489
training in inverted commas to get myself like

01:02:48.489 --> 01:02:51.949
physically fit but also um so i could my playing

01:02:51.949 --> 01:02:54.730
was fit enough to be able to my playing was you

01:02:54.730 --> 01:02:57.630
mean your diet you're sleeping no no i mean yeah

01:02:57.630 --> 01:03:01.090
just partly that just the ability to play like

01:03:01.090 --> 01:03:02.849
i needed to play to be able to play that kind

01:03:02.849 --> 01:03:04.710
of music needed a certain kind of single mind

01:03:04.710 --> 01:03:07.570
and i'd play ramones songs to warm up down strokes

01:03:07.570 --> 01:03:10.590
yeah all down strokes and then the thing which

01:03:10.590 --> 01:03:13.420
was beautiful about the ramones everything's

01:03:13.420 --> 01:03:16.219
interconnected. The hi -hat's doing its thing.

01:03:16.659 --> 01:03:18.780
And then the bass and the guitar, it's all like,

01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:20.980
that's why you've got all different tonal frequencies,

01:03:21.139 --> 01:03:22.940
that thing cutting your head off because it's

01:03:22.940 --> 01:03:26.159
just like a block of noise, you know, with Joey

01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:29.420
sitting on top of it. And yeah, and it's not

01:03:29.420 --> 01:03:31.519
easy to do that. That's why most punk bands sound

01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:33.300
shit in hindsight. They weren't as good as the

01:03:33.300 --> 01:03:35.420
Ramones, you know? And the Ramones knew that.

01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:38.900
I think Johnny did, didn't he? Well, yeah. I

01:03:38.900 --> 01:03:40.579
mean, all these people wanted to give their,

01:03:40.699 --> 01:03:44.380
you know, uh thanks to the ramones and somehow

01:03:44.380 --> 01:03:46.860
connect with them and i know it was awkward for

01:03:46.860 --> 01:03:48.840
the ramones because they were so judgmental as

01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:51.699
they should have been probably well i mean yeah

01:03:51.699 --> 01:03:54.699
i mean you know i mean you know those first three

01:03:54.699 --> 01:03:57.599
or four albums are just so amazing what year

01:03:57.599 --> 01:04:01.519
did you see the ramones 80 in 80 okay but i didn't

01:04:01.519 --> 01:04:03.300
get to see them until long long after really

01:04:03.300 --> 01:04:07.400
that's interesting but um but to go you know

01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:10.739
there's a kind of duality that's happening here

01:04:10.739 --> 01:04:13.559
because at the same time I'm starting to hear

01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:16.079
blues music and I was I was naturally inquisitive

01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:18.920
to sort of listen to the punk rocker the Clash

01:04:18.920 --> 01:04:20.380
and the Pistols and then I started listening

01:04:20.380 --> 01:04:23.380
to the MC5 and the Stooges and working back but

01:04:23.380 --> 01:04:25.619
then I started to dig into you know the early

01:04:25.619 --> 01:04:28.360
rock and roll like you know obviously Elvis and

01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:30.059
Chuck Berry and Little Richard but then I'm going

01:04:30.059 --> 01:04:32.920
into the blues stuff so I kind of fairly quickly

01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:35.320
had an understanding of where this music originally

01:04:35.320 --> 01:04:38.659
came from But like I said earlier, some of the

01:04:38.659 --> 01:04:41.159
original blues guys were still playing and had

01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:43.760
an opportunity to see them. And what happened

01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:46.679
around this time, which was really interesting,

01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:48.639
which we talked about a little bit earlier before

01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:56.460
we got here, was that I had a friend who shared

01:04:56.460 --> 01:04:59.079
the same interests as me. And we liked the cramps.

01:04:59.659 --> 01:05:03.980
And we were reading The Legion of the Damned,

01:05:03.980 --> 01:05:06.530
which Lindsay was doing. they'd have these recommendations

01:05:06.530 --> 01:05:08.710
of what you should check out if you like the

01:05:08.710 --> 01:05:12.650
cramps. And one of it was Panther Burns and one

01:05:12.650 --> 01:05:14.670
of them was The Gun Club. And so we'd buy these

01:05:14.670 --> 01:05:16.329
records and I think we bought them on Mintport

01:05:16.329 --> 01:05:18.809
because we were so desperate to hear them. And

01:05:18.809 --> 01:05:21.630
especially with The Fire of Love by The Gun Club,

01:05:21.730 --> 01:05:24.730
there was all these cover versions of old blues

01:05:24.730 --> 01:05:27.090
songs that we were unaware of. And we were just

01:05:27.090 --> 01:05:30.650
like... It was done in such a way that it was

01:05:30.650 --> 01:05:32.949
evocative of the original songs, but it was done

01:05:32.949 --> 01:05:34.909
in a punk rock way. So it wasn't strictly punk

01:05:34.909 --> 01:05:39.650
blues, but it was very beguiling and it was very

01:05:39.650 --> 01:05:43.329
attractive to listen to. And we had a friend

01:05:43.329 --> 01:05:46.130
of ours who had his father was one of the old

01:05:46.130 --> 01:05:47.929
blues guys from the 60s. And we used to call

01:05:47.929 --> 01:05:49.969
him the professor because his name was Roger

01:05:49.969 --> 01:05:53.230
Greenwood. He had a completely encyclopedic record

01:05:53.230 --> 01:05:56.059
collection. of all the original blues players.

01:05:56.380 --> 01:05:58.900
So we would then get him to do tapes for us of,

01:05:58.980 --> 01:06:00.980
you know, Lightning Hopkins and Robert Johnson

01:06:00.980 --> 01:06:04.699
and all of these people. So this blues thing

01:06:04.699 --> 01:06:06.539
is going on at the same time as all the punk

01:06:06.539 --> 01:06:08.480
rocks. I'm seeing punk rock bands, but I'm also

01:06:08.480 --> 01:06:10.159
digging further into the blues. And that came

01:06:10.159 --> 01:06:13.219
primarily from the Cramps to the Gun Club through

01:06:13.219 --> 01:06:16.900
to this guy who was making these tapes for us.

01:06:16.940 --> 01:06:19.199
So all of this thing was going on. Cassette tapes.

01:06:19.639 --> 01:06:22.079
Yeah, exactly, cassette tapes. So I don't know

01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:24.159
where they are now, but I had lots and lots of

01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:25.659
them where we just listened to this original

01:06:25.659 --> 01:06:29.400
blues music. And it was completely, it was very,

01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:32.980
very, you know, it was very alien sounding to

01:06:32.980 --> 01:06:35.320
us. The song I'd like you to play next, if you

01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:39.280
can, is called Drink of Water Blues by The Gun

01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:42.099
Club. That's from Fire of Love. And that, you

01:06:42.099 --> 01:06:44.940
know, it's, I think it's originally a Tommy Johnson

01:06:44.940 --> 01:06:49.500
song, but it's, yeah, that's... absolutely evocative

01:06:49.500 --> 01:06:52.860
of you know this area but in my imagination at

01:06:52.860 --> 01:13:09.659
the time Your attraction to pop culture, I don't

01:13:09.659 --> 01:13:11.520
even know if you can recall, punk really isn't

01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:15.340
pop culture. And that's the problem, I think,

01:13:15.340 --> 01:13:18.640
that developed in Western culture was that corporations

01:13:18.640 --> 01:13:22.479
and commercialism of rock and roll could not

01:13:22.479 --> 01:13:26.680
readily digest what it was giving people. And

01:13:26.680 --> 01:13:31.460
I still love a lot of the corporate rock that

01:13:31.460 --> 01:13:35.140
came out at the time. compared to now everything

01:13:35.140 --> 01:13:39.000
seems so not nostalgic but or sentimental it

01:13:39.000 --> 01:13:40.779
just seems like there were people who knew how

01:13:40.779 --> 01:13:43.739
to play and i respect that versus people who

01:13:43.739 --> 01:13:45.859
technically quote unquote don't know how to play

01:13:45.859 --> 01:13:49.760
because there's emotional fortitude in both styles

01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:51.779
well i mean i don't know what it was like here

01:13:51.779 --> 01:13:53.359
but one of the things i loved about punk rock

01:13:53.359 --> 01:13:56.779
it said that at this point music matters everything

01:13:56.779 --> 01:14:00.319
before it doesn't Which is why I'm surprised

01:14:00.319 --> 01:14:02.359
you get into the blues because the blues don't

01:14:02.359 --> 01:14:05.960
matter with punk rock. No, but I mean, I adhered

01:14:05.960 --> 01:14:08.760
quite strictly to the rules. Just like with rap

01:14:08.760 --> 01:14:10.460
music, blues doesn't matter. Oh, well, this is

01:14:10.460 --> 01:14:12.220
the interesting connection. I wouldn't listen

01:14:12.220 --> 01:14:17.680
to Pink Floyd. I still don't. Because Johnny

01:14:17.680 --> 01:14:20.359
Rotten wore a t -shirt. I won't have it in the

01:14:20.359 --> 01:14:24.039
house. You know what I mean? I didn't listen

01:14:24.039 --> 01:14:26.159
to Led Zeppelin. None of that. Certainly none

01:14:26.159 --> 01:14:28.939
of the West Coast kind of, you know, whatever

01:14:28.939 --> 01:14:31.199
you call it, adult orientated rock and all that.

01:14:31.380 --> 01:14:32.920
What, the country rock? The Eagles and things

01:14:32.920 --> 01:14:34.600
like that. Oh, Laurel Canyon? I fucking hated

01:14:34.600 --> 01:14:37.100
it. Do you know what I mean? Do you still? Yeah.

01:14:37.260 --> 01:14:39.619
You don't like the birds? I like the birds. Okay.

01:14:39.739 --> 01:14:42.199
But I mean. You got to stop somewhere. Yeah.

01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:47.479
So like birds, yes. Eagles, no. But what happened?

01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:50.779
What happened? There's a big void there, you

01:14:50.779 --> 01:14:52.939
know? Yeah. But what happened for me anyway?

01:14:53.430 --> 01:14:56.409
What happened in the 80s is that I started to

01:14:56.409 --> 01:15:00.229
get, I got deeper into music and I was listening

01:15:00.229 --> 01:15:03.250
to things like the Birthday Party. And, you know,

01:15:03.289 --> 01:15:05.029
I was listening quite heavily to the Stooges.

01:15:06.130 --> 01:15:09.270
The indie music of the day, and by indie music,

01:15:09.310 --> 01:15:12.789
I mean inverted commas like indie as a sort of

01:15:12.789 --> 01:15:15.520
like a genre of music. Like Elvis Costello? No,

01:15:15.539 --> 01:15:17.020
no, I'm talking about after, I'm talking like

01:15:17.020 --> 01:15:19.359
the Smiths and things like that. Yeah. I didn't

01:15:19.359 --> 01:15:21.600
really, I mean, I got the Smiths a lot, lot later,

01:15:21.640 --> 01:15:24.100
but I didn't get them. I did during the, during

01:15:24.100 --> 01:15:25.739
the time they come, but not necessarily them,

01:15:25.760 --> 01:15:28.420
but the other bands around at the time, you know,

01:15:28.420 --> 01:15:31.140
I just didn't understand anything to do with

01:15:31.140 --> 01:15:33.260
it. It didn't mean anything. I was kind of feeling

01:15:33.260 --> 01:15:36.359
a little bit lost in terms of wanting high energy

01:15:36.359 --> 01:15:38.859
music that connected with me. And eventually,

01:15:38.899 --> 01:15:41.420
and funnily enough, there's a, you're probably

01:15:41.420 --> 01:15:44.680
aware of it. There's a, there was a, a disc jockey

01:15:44.680 --> 01:15:47.859
in uh the uk called john peel who used to have

01:15:47.859 --> 01:15:50.619
these shows in the evening and he'd play this

01:15:50.619 --> 01:15:52.760
huge different selection different kinds of music

01:15:52.760 --> 01:15:54.539
but he was one of the champions of punk earlier

01:15:54.539 --> 01:15:57.439
on but um it's kind of a rite of passage at that

01:15:57.439 --> 01:15:58.960
time when you were a teenager that you would

01:15:58.960 --> 01:16:00.779
listen to john peel and then you know you would

01:16:00.779 --> 01:16:04.300
develop your music taste but he started playing

01:16:04.300 --> 01:16:07.819
this music from new york um that i became completely

01:16:07.819 --> 01:16:12.479
obsessed with like very early hip -hop and you

01:16:12.479 --> 01:16:15.119
know mixing chopping together all you know stuff

01:16:15.119 --> 01:16:19.260
from the previous 30 or 40 years of um um music

01:16:19.260 --> 01:16:22.100
sampling you mean yeah well no but before sampling

01:16:22.100 --> 01:16:23.880
when they were like you know like grandmaster

01:16:23.880 --> 01:16:26.420
flash had this song called um the adventures

01:16:26.420 --> 01:16:28.479
of grandmaster flash in the wheels of steel and

01:16:28.479 --> 01:16:30.600
it was him cutting records between the two of

01:16:30.600 --> 01:16:33.439
them and that just completely blew me and that

01:16:33.439 --> 01:16:35.380
became exciting and then that became the next

01:16:35.380 --> 01:16:38.319
punk rock for me and then i got very very deeply

01:16:38.319 --> 01:16:41.569
into hip -hop and one of the things that really

01:16:41.569 --> 01:16:44.069
excited me was when the hip -hop guys in the

01:16:44.069 --> 01:16:46.189
mid 80s started to use rock breaks because i

01:16:46.189 --> 01:16:48.329
never listened to any of the rock breaks i never

01:16:48.329 --> 01:16:50.970
listened to fin lizzy i never listened to led

01:16:50.970 --> 01:16:52.770
zeppelin i never listened to any of that because

01:16:52.770 --> 01:16:54.930
the punk rock rule book said it wasn't allowed

01:16:54.930 --> 01:16:58.310
right and then obviously led zeppelin were heavily

01:16:58.310 --> 01:17:00.649
sampled by the beastie boys and run dmc and all

01:17:00.649 --> 01:17:03.430
these other people and then i worked backwards

01:17:03.430 --> 01:17:05.829
and then i got into led zeppelin in the mid 80s

01:17:07.720 --> 01:17:10.300
Just in time to catch their last tour. Well,

01:17:10.539 --> 01:17:12.779
I don't know. I think they were long gone by

01:17:12.779 --> 01:17:16.140
then. But then in certain parts, I said, all

01:17:16.140 --> 01:17:18.939
right, okay. There is parts of this. It's exciting

01:17:18.939 --> 01:17:20.960
punk in a different way. Do you know what I mean?

01:17:20.979 --> 01:17:23.420
So I kind of got into Led Zeppelin through the

01:17:23.420 --> 01:17:26.739
back door. What amazes me about Jimmy Page is

01:17:26.739 --> 01:17:29.079
his all the way back to the Freak Beat stuff.

01:17:30.990 --> 01:17:34.350
with the mid -60s Swingin' London stuff, that

01:17:34.350 --> 01:17:37.569
I didn't even know about Page. But when he was

01:17:37.569 --> 01:17:39.789
a session player. Yes. And when he had all these

01:17:39.789 --> 01:17:42.250
connections that he simply built upon to create

01:17:42.250 --> 01:17:44.329
Led Zeppelin. Yeah. The most amazing thing I

01:17:44.329 --> 01:17:46.550
found, I had on my radio show, I had Chris Salovich

01:17:46.550 --> 01:17:48.850
who did his biography and I was reading Chris's

01:17:48.850 --> 01:17:52.130
biography of Jimmy Page. And one of the really

01:17:52.130 --> 01:17:54.609
remarkable things that came out of that was that

01:17:54.609 --> 01:17:58.250
before Led Zeppelin started, Jimmy Page was a

01:17:58.250 --> 01:18:00.069
millionaire and he was a millionaire. Was he?

01:18:00.189 --> 01:18:03.930
Yeah. Because he not only played on a lot of

01:18:03.930 --> 01:18:06.029
the big hits of the time, he owned the publishing

01:18:06.029 --> 01:18:07.670
for the B -sides and things like that. So he

01:18:07.670 --> 01:18:10.350
accumulated a huge amount of money at an early

01:18:10.350 --> 01:18:12.609
age. By playing on Goldfinger, he must have...

01:18:12.609 --> 01:18:14.090
Or whatever it was, he played on everything,

01:18:14.210 --> 01:18:15.149
didn't he? Well, but he wouldn't have gotten

01:18:15.149 --> 01:18:16.829
royalties from Goldfinger. No, no, no, but on

01:18:16.829 --> 01:18:20.729
the B -sides, if he wrote it. Anyway, he'd accumulated

01:18:20.729 --> 01:18:24.689
a lot of money. So when he put Led Zeppelin together...

01:18:25.020 --> 01:18:28.420
He owns the masters and the rights and the publishing

01:18:28.420 --> 01:18:30.279
and everything to do with Led Zeppelin right

01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:32.979
from the get -go. So in his way, he was like

01:18:32.979 --> 01:18:36.060
a forerunner of, you know, the indie sort of

01:18:36.060 --> 01:18:37.979
thing of the late 70s, but just on a much, much

01:18:37.979 --> 01:18:39.600
bigger scale. As he was doing Uncredited Blues.

01:18:42.439 --> 01:18:44.579
We're not going to cue a Led Zeppelin song, are

01:18:44.579 --> 01:18:47.409
we? Let me have a look at my list. Oh my God.

01:18:47.670 --> 01:18:49.970
I might just add one here just to upset you.

01:18:49.970 --> 01:18:50.949
I thought I'd never come to this. Have you ever

01:18:50.949 --> 01:18:52.909
played Led Zeppelin on here? We don't usually

01:18:52.909 --> 01:18:56.569
for good reason. I did enjoy the recent documentary.

01:18:56.569 --> 01:18:59.189
Okay, let's do the two together. Let's play Rhyming

01:18:59.189 --> 01:19:01.689
and Stealing by the Beastie Boys, which uses

01:19:01.689 --> 01:19:57.750
When the Levee Breaks as the breakbeat. I got

01:19:57.750 --> 01:20:41.359
your money and your honey. Alibaba and the 40

01:20:41.359 --> 01:21:22.569
Thieves Alibaba and the 40 Thieves She sure gets

01:21:22.569 --> 01:23:13.569
it. I don't know what the hell just happened.

01:23:15.369 --> 01:23:17.390
That's what happens when you don't give an Englishman

01:23:17.390 --> 01:23:21.170
his tea, proper tea. Well, I've had a lot of

01:23:21.170 --> 01:23:23.289
tea. I just don't know what kind of tea it is.

01:23:23.470 --> 01:23:25.850
Isn't it? He said something about his tea was

01:23:25.850 --> 01:23:28.430
gunpowder tea. I mean, what, Guy Fawkes tea?

01:23:28.770 --> 01:23:31.109
Gunpowder. He did say gunpowder. He did say gunpowder.

01:23:31.149 --> 01:23:33.329
And then Eric Oblivion was in there and it all

01:23:33.329 --> 01:23:35.090
got really confusing. You just met Eric Oblivion

01:23:35.090 --> 01:23:38.489
for the first time. I know. I'm like being given

01:23:38.489 --> 01:23:41.779
gunpowder tea and meeting Eric Oblivion. The

01:23:41.779 --> 01:23:43.779
coffee shop, it's all getting too confusing.

01:23:43.979 --> 01:23:46.060
This may be too abstract and we can move on.

01:23:47.199 --> 01:23:50.619
I grew up out on a gravel road and I could only

01:23:50.619 --> 01:23:53.260
find like certain kinds of rock and roll in Walmart

01:23:53.260 --> 01:23:56.680
and certain mass, you know, shops. When I met

01:23:56.680 --> 01:23:58.880
George, even then we could go to these record

01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:01.500
stores and malls and in the import section, you

01:24:01.500 --> 01:24:04.670
would find the Ramones. The ironicness of finding

01:24:04.670 --> 01:24:06.989
an American band in an import section because

01:24:06.989 --> 01:24:09.449
they didn't know how else to label it. That's

01:24:09.449 --> 01:24:11.329
when you knew that corporations were taking over

01:24:11.329 --> 01:24:14.609
and we were completely lost. If you're completely

01:24:14.609 --> 01:24:17.189
lost in the late 70s, not knowing how to label

01:24:17.189 --> 01:24:19.369
your own rock and roll, is it any wonder we're

01:24:19.369 --> 01:24:22.270
completely lost as a country now? Well, I think

01:24:22.270 --> 01:24:24.010
what you're talking about is the beginning of

01:24:24.010 --> 01:24:26.569
the commodification of consumerism. It's the

01:24:26.569 --> 01:24:29.210
commodification of America as a concept. And

01:24:29.210 --> 01:24:30.949
that is why I've been having problems in hotels

01:24:30.949 --> 01:24:34.489
as well as tea. Do you know what I mean? We had

01:24:34.489 --> 01:24:37.829
a tea party once, you know? I suppose. I don't

01:24:37.829 --> 01:24:39.869
know about that. I still don't understand what

01:24:39.869 --> 01:24:42.689
that was about. Taxation, I guess? That commodification

01:24:42.689 --> 01:24:45.550
is like you redevelop an old warehouse building

01:24:45.550 --> 01:24:48.189
from the industrial age as a kind of hip -happening

01:24:48.189 --> 01:24:50.720
place, but nothing works in there. You know what

01:24:50.720 --> 01:24:54.079
I mean? No bathroom. There's never a bathtub.

01:24:54.279 --> 01:24:55.939
It's always a shower. But that's the least of

01:24:55.939 --> 01:24:57.800
your problems. Do you know what I mean? Try getting

01:24:57.800 --> 01:25:00.880
breakfast. Have you ever peed in a sink? No.

01:25:00.899 --> 01:25:04.460
I guess you never went to Amsterdam then. All

01:25:04.460 --> 01:25:07.520
right. We'll leave that there. Why do you have

01:25:07.520 --> 01:25:09.779
to turn your back on things at a certain age

01:25:09.779 --> 01:25:13.500
to reject a commodity even at an early age? You're

01:25:13.500 --> 01:25:16.289
recognizing it. commodity for what it is because

01:25:16.289 --> 01:25:18.010
you're going into punk rock I think that's an

01:25:18.010 --> 01:25:21.250
anachronism now because A kids really aren't

01:25:21.250 --> 01:25:23.710
into rock and roll anyway now and if they are

01:25:23.710 --> 01:25:25.489
they're into everything do you know what I mean

01:25:25.489 --> 01:25:27.789
we're just like that was just how it was at the

01:25:27.789 --> 01:25:30.090
time thanks to the internet now that's Stalinist

01:25:30.090 --> 01:25:33.210
revision of whatever but i mean i was never into

01:25:33.210 --> 01:25:35.329
those long hair bands to start off with so i

01:25:35.329 --> 01:25:37.670
never had that issue i just got into punk rock

01:25:37.670 --> 01:25:39.930
because it excited me but i think of rock and

01:25:39.930 --> 01:25:42.390
roll as southern rock because rock and roll was

01:25:42.390 --> 01:25:45.270
created in the south yeah so all rock and roll

01:25:45.270 --> 01:25:48.729
originally is southern rock by default yeah and

01:25:48.729 --> 01:25:52.970
and also let me throw this at you mr rupert orton

01:25:52.970 --> 01:25:57.340
um rock and roll is progressive it defies genre

01:25:57.340 --> 01:25:59.939
when rock and roll is dead everything drifts

01:25:59.939 --> 01:26:03.479
back into its rap its country it's uh whatever

01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:05.960
the hell you call it rock and roll is a sign

01:26:05.960 --> 01:26:08.399
of progression because it unites country blues

01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:11.619
pop soul gospel it unites a whole bunch of things

01:26:11.619 --> 01:26:14.659
and adds distortion to it and it moves forward

01:26:14.659 --> 01:26:18.279
like capitalism like america moves forward and

01:26:18.279 --> 01:26:21.100
when it dies america dies that's that's well

01:26:21.100 --> 01:26:23.260
then we're dying aren't we because it's on its

01:26:23.260 --> 01:26:27.140
way out It's been dead. But it's good that even

01:26:27.140 --> 01:26:29.020
in England, you said, hey, we don't have any

01:26:29.020 --> 01:26:31.800
rock and roll. When really, that's what we should

01:26:31.800 --> 01:26:35.359
be saying in America. But you're saying it in

01:26:35.359 --> 01:26:38.180
England. Well, I mean, we said that in 2005.

01:26:38.319 --> 01:26:40.819
So that was 20 years ago. I know, I know. And

01:26:40.819 --> 01:26:44.600
then what we were doing finished like, you know,

01:26:44.600 --> 01:26:46.640
eight years later or whatever. So I don't really

01:26:46.640 --> 01:26:48.279
know where things are now. Well, I heard this

01:26:48.279 --> 01:26:52.520
interview on NPR of all places. Interview with

01:26:52.520 --> 01:26:56.460
Alice Cooper and he said he'd gotten into a disagreement

01:26:56.460 --> 01:26:59.520
or friendly argument with Gene Simmons about

01:26:59.520 --> 01:27:03.380
Gene was was angry because rock and roll was,

01:27:03.460 --> 01:27:06.380
quote unquote, dead. And Alice Cooper said, it's

01:27:06.380 --> 01:27:08.960
not dead. It's just not commercial. It's still

01:27:08.960 --> 01:27:12.899
happening in garages. It's still happening. But

01:27:12.899 --> 01:27:14.960
it seems like if it were happening as a roots

01:27:14.960 --> 01:27:18.399
movement, it would still come forth in the commercial

01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:21.600
world. But it's not. I just don't think kids

01:27:21.600 --> 01:27:24.359
are interested in it. Right. You know. Because

01:27:24.359 --> 01:27:26.399
it did what it was supposed to do. I think rock

01:27:26.399 --> 01:27:28.960
and roll works best when it's played by teenagers

01:27:28.960 --> 01:27:31.479
or people in their early 20s at the very latest.

01:27:31.560 --> 01:27:33.680
That's when it really, really works. Right. And

01:27:33.680 --> 01:27:36.979
they understand it. Right. And it kind of got

01:27:36.979 --> 01:27:38.880
less of appeal when it's played by people in

01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:40.720
their 60s, you know. So when you were in Jim

01:27:40.720 --> 01:27:44.060
Jones Review, how old were you? Late 30s. So

01:27:44.060 --> 01:27:48.270
we were in the Last Chance Saloon. Right. All

01:27:48.270 --> 01:27:50.729
right. So when you traveled to America and you

01:27:50.729 --> 01:27:53.430
said you hit up Clarksdale. Yeah. Were you familiar

01:27:53.430 --> 01:27:58.090
with Rosedale? No. So. I spent some time in Rosedale

01:27:58.090 --> 01:28:00.670
over the last couple of years. Rosedale is the

01:28:00.670 --> 01:28:02.750
only song that Robert Johnson actually mentions

01:28:02.750 --> 01:28:06.050
in a song. He never mentions Clarksdale. He talks

01:28:06.050 --> 01:28:09.010
about being on a ride with a rider who's going

01:28:09.010 --> 01:28:11.970
to Rosedale. And a friend of mine opened a restaurant,

01:28:12.250 --> 01:28:15.609
wanted it to be a juke joint in sort of the way

01:28:15.609 --> 01:28:18.189
that a white guy opens a business in a black

01:28:18.189 --> 01:28:21.069
community and hopes that it'll catch on. And

01:28:21.069 --> 01:28:22.970
this maybe goes back to the disinterest in the

01:28:22.970 --> 01:28:26.729
community of not wanting to have it. any affiliation

01:28:26.729 --> 01:28:29.350
with Satan because they're Christians and conservative,

01:28:29.569 --> 01:28:33.109
you know, in this country and especially in a

01:28:33.109 --> 01:28:36.729
place like that. And so what led to me painting

01:28:36.729 --> 01:28:39.569
12 murals on the wall depicting Robert Johnson

01:28:39.569 --> 01:28:43.649
in Rosedale, discovering a deal with the devil

01:28:43.649 --> 01:28:45.970
and what have you, the hellhounds and all that,

01:28:46.029 --> 01:28:48.390
the building eventually got burned to the ground

01:28:48.390 --> 01:28:51.750
mysteriously. So I'm just saying the next time

01:28:51.750 --> 01:28:53.689
you go to Clarksdale, you should go a little

01:28:53.689 --> 01:28:56.489
further down. Cut over to the river and go to

01:28:56.489 --> 01:28:58.430
Rosedale. Well, I'm going on Wednesday, so I'll

01:28:58.430 --> 01:29:00.529
maybe check it out. But did you know, I don't

01:29:00.529 --> 01:29:03.510
know if you listened to my interview with Tav.

01:29:03.909 --> 01:29:08.270
He came to Memphis because he had to flee Dallas

01:29:08.270 --> 01:29:12.130
because he was in a satanic cult. That's called

01:29:12.130 --> 01:29:16.649
the Dallas Police Department. Do you know what

01:29:16.649 --> 01:29:19.210
they did to Kennedy by any chance? That's the

01:29:19.210 --> 01:29:22.449
same satanic cult that Tav encountered. I'm sure

01:29:22.449 --> 01:29:25.529
pretty sure. I listened to Tav. No, I did listen

01:29:25.529 --> 01:29:29.810
to your entire Au revoir today. And I was actually,

01:29:29.909 --> 01:29:32.590
anytime I listened to, you call it a radio show?

01:29:32.750 --> 01:29:34.250
It's not a podcast? Yeah, no, it's broadcast

01:29:34.250 --> 01:29:36.449
on a radio station. Seriously? Called Totally

01:29:36.449 --> 01:29:38.489
Wild Radio. Yeah, that's why I can play music

01:29:38.489 --> 01:29:42.189
on it. Did you hear that, Dennis? Well, we play

01:29:42.189 --> 01:29:44.710
music here. It's a podcast. What's the difference?

01:29:45.189 --> 01:29:48.710
In the UK, they have this thing called PRS. Which

01:29:48.710 --> 01:29:52.250
is if you play music on a broadcasted show, then

01:29:52.250 --> 01:29:56.090
you have to pay PRS. So you either do it or it's

01:29:56.090 --> 01:29:58.369
a podcast if it's just people talking or it's

01:29:58.369 --> 01:30:00.550
a radio show if you play music as well. You go

01:30:00.550 --> 01:30:04.149
into your radio show heavy with music, like three

01:30:04.149 --> 01:30:06.630
or four songs deep. Well, that's intentional

01:30:06.630 --> 01:30:10.770
because I play roots music mainly. I play what

01:30:10.770 --> 01:30:13.069
I want, but mainly it orientates around country

01:30:13.069 --> 01:30:16.109
or blues or rock and roll. and i want to play

01:30:16.109 --> 01:30:18.210
the best of what's happening now so it's all

01:30:18.210 --> 01:30:20.529
new and that's intriguing to me and that's very

01:30:20.529 --> 01:30:23.449
cool that he does that it's just that of all

01:30:23.449 --> 01:30:25.569
the podcasts i've listened to over a variety

01:30:25.569 --> 01:30:29.310
of spectrums uh we kind of right now we're going

01:30:29.310 --> 01:30:31.189
at it differently where we might play one song

01:30:31.189 --> 01:30:33.170
going into an interview like we we're doing with

01:30:33.170 --> 01:30:35.149
you yeah because i want people to know that you

01:30:35.149 --> 01:30:38.550
are a musician who plays in bands but sometimes

01:30:38.550 --> 01:30:41.640
we have interviews where the musicians Sometimes

01:30:41.640 --> 01:30:44.020
we don't even get to music that much. Frankly,

01:30:44.239 --> 01:30:47.699
isn't that weird? Maybe we shouldn't do that.

01:30:47.760 --> 01:30:49.720
Maybe we should play more music. You need to

01:30:49.720 --> 01:30:52.760
just do what you want. I don't know what I'm

01:30:52.760 --> 01:30:55.659
doing. On the station that my show goes out on,

01:30:56.579 --> 01:30:59.939
I'm kind of the only person who plays what I

01:30:59.939 --> 01:31:03.220
play. Mainly they're kind of record collectors,

01:31:03.420 --> 01:31:07.079
and they play vintage soul music or reggae and

01:31:07.079 --> 01:31:09.039
stuff like that, and it's all great, but mine's

01:31:09.039 --> 01:31:10.949
a little bit different from that. Play the thing

01:31:10.949 --> 01:31:13.149
that you, I noticed a new name that came up,

01:31:13.210 --> 01:31:16.130
Robert. Finley. Let's play something by him.

01:31:16.189 --> 01:31:18.770
Yeah, well, Robert's really interesting. He's

01:31:18.770 --> 01:31:22.170
a guy from Louisiana. He's, you know, one of

01:31:22.170 --> 01:31:25.109
my booking clients in Europe. And he signed to

01:31:25.109 --> 01:31:28.430
Easy Eye Sounds, which is Dan Auerbach's label

01:31:28.430 --> 01:31:32.170
from the Black Keys. And Dan produces and co

01:31:32.170 --> 01:31:34.850
-writes with Robert. But Robert's, yeah, he's

01:31:34.850 --> 01:31:37.489
blown up in Europe really, really good. Let's

01:31:37.489 --> 01:31:39.029
play something right now and come back and talk

01:31:39.029 --> 01:31:41.720
about it. Okay. What do you want to play? Holy

01:31:41.720 --> 01:35:04.539
Ghost Party. Let's do it. What did we just listen

01:35:04.539 --> 01:35:07.899
to? We listened to Robert Finlay, Holy Ghost

01:35:07.899 --> 01:35:10.699
Party, which has just been released. And he's

01:35:10.699 --> 01:35:13.079
got a new record coming out in a couple of weeks.

01:35:13.279 --> 01:35:16.439
And yeah, he's a really interesting guy, actually.

01:35:16.500 --> 01:35:19.039
He's in his early 70s and plays with a young

01:35:19.039 --> 01:35:23.000
UK -based band when he's over in Europe. But

01:35:23.000 --> 01:35:25.079
he's much bigger in Europe than he is over here.

01:35:25.359 --> 01:35:28.140
It's just one of that. Where's he from? Louisiana.

01:35:28.380 --> 01:35:33.250
Okay. Monroe, Louisiana. So, yeah. I started

01:35:33.250 --> 01:35:36.550
working with him at the tail end of the pandemic

01:35:36.550 --> 01:35:38.770
and then it just came to get once things opened

01:35:38.770 --> 01:35:41.210
up again and he released a new record, his career

01:35:41.210 --> 01:35:43.430
just exploded. Do you feel sort of like you're

01:35:43.430 --> 01:35:45.630
in management sometimes instead of just booking?

01:35:46.090 --> 01:35:48.789
Well, I have been in management. Yeah. So do

01:35:48.789 --> 01:35:50.750
you consider yourself a manager of some of these

01:35:50.750 --> 01:35:55.470
artists? No, no. I mean, I am a manager of certain

01:35:55.470 --> 01:35:57.789
artists, but with Robert, I'm just his booking

01:35:57.789 --> 01:36:00.270
agent. Who do you manage? Take Me to the River.

01:36:00.800 --> 01:36:04.840
which is a project which is based in Memphis

01:36:04.840 --> 01:36:10.319
around Carla Thomas, High Rhythm, Boo Mitchell,

01:36:10.579 --> 01:36:13.140
Royal Studios, and then also New Orleans, which

01:36:13.140 --> 01:36:16.560
is around Cyril Neville, Amari Neville, Robert

01:36:16.560 --> 01:36:19.220
Mercurio, Big Chief, Bo Dallas Jr., and things

01:36:19.220 --> 01:36:20.800
like that, which is a really exciting thing to

01:36:20.800 --> 01:36:22.920
be involved with. Yeah. So do you handle more

01:36:22.920 --> 01:36:25.840
the UK side of things? No, I manage them worldwide.

01:36:26.199 --> 01:36:29.199
Worldwide. Okay. All right. I started off as

01:36:29.199 --> 01:36:31.039
their booking agent, but have just recently taken

01:36:31.039 --> 01:36:32.979
over the management of the project. And that's

01:36:32.979 --> 01:36:35.239
under the name of? Take Me to the River. Okay.

01:36:35.260 --> 01:36:37.899
Which is really interesting. It's essentially

01:36:37.899 --> 01:36:41.100
an education initiative, a not -for -profit based

01:36:41.100 --> 01:36:44.100
in California that teaches students about the

01:36:44.100 --> 01:36:48.579
origins of American R &B and soul. And here you

01:36:48.579 --> 01:36:51.739
are from England. I know. Coast to Newcastle.

01:36:53.739 --> 01:36:55.600
I'm not doing the teaching. I'm just doing the

01:36:55.600 --> 01:36:59.359
facilitation of the management. Well, let's talk

01:36:59.359 --> 01:37:02.319
about Pink Lemonade for a bit because I didn't

01:37:02.319 --> 01:37:04.300
even know you did Pink Lemonade. Have I missed

01:37:04.300 --> 01:37:06.920
out on something you told me? Because it came

01:37:06.920 --> 01:37:09.100
up in my feed today and I'm like, well, apropos,

01:37:09.100 --> 01:37:11.319
I'm going to be talking. Really? I mean, I'm

01:37:11.319 --> 01:37:14.060
not. that shy on promoting things so i just didn't

01:37:14.060 --> 01:37:16.939
know or maybe i'm so clueless i skipped it but

01:37:16.939 --> 01:37:20.319
i listened to your entire tafalco interview yeah

01:37:20.319 --> 01:37:21.920
well thanks for that i mean you shared it as

01:37:21.920 --> 01:37:24.640
well which is great but i i was just saying earlier

01:37:24.640 --> 01:37:29.100
um you know essentially my work revolves around

01:37:29.100 --> 01:37:32.560
live music that's what it is you know and um

01:37:32.560 --> 01:37:35.939
it got wiped out obviously quite quickly in the

01:37:35.939 --> 01:37:39.050
uh the pandemic I couldn't obviously promote

01:37:39.050 --> 01:37:40.970
shows because the venues weren't open and we

01:37:40.970 --> 01:37:42.569
weren't allowed to leave our house and all the

01:37:42.569 --> 01:37:45.050
rest of it. And you got in the cycle of rescheduling

01:37:45.050 --> 01:37:46.949
shows and tours, which looked like they were

01:37:46.949 --> 01:37:48.770
never, ever going to happen again. How did you

01:37:48.770 --> 01:37:53.090
survive that? Just kind of, just philosophically

01:37:53.090 --> 01:37:55.869
kind of just accepted that things had stopped

01:37:55.869 --> 01:37:58.829
or paused for a long period of time and not to

01:37:58.829 --> 01:38:02.260
get... too anxious about it i started riding

01:38:02.260 --> 01:38:05.380
my bike or riding a bike i got into cycling quite

01:38:05.380 --> 01:38:07.239
heavily and meditation and that kind of got me

01:38:07.239 --> 01:38:10.460
through it really but at that point a good friend

01:38:10.460 --> 01:38:13.180
of mine going back to what we were talking about

01:38:13.180 --> 01:38:15.520
earlier about people that connect and open things

01:38:15.520 --> 01:38:18.039
up and they don't hold back this guy called dean

01:38:18.039 --> 01:38:22.079
chalkley contacted me and he was djing um on

01:38:22.079 --> 01:38:23.899
this radio station called totally wide radio

01:38:23.899 --> 01:38:25.359
and he said you should do it you should do a

01:38:25.359 --> 01:38:28.300
radio show and i've never thought about it and

01:38:28.300 --> 01:38:31.000
so i did it And then, so that came out of the

01:38:31.000 --> 01:38:32.939
pandemic and it was just something to do while

01:38:32.939 --> 01:38:35.199
nothing else was going on. So I, you know, I

01:38:35.199 --> 01:38:37.920
had a pretty good address book. So I just, and

01:38:37.920 --> 01:38:40.600
like I said, the station is about record collectors.

01:38:40.960 --> 01:38:43.659
And as much as I love music deeply, I'm not really

01:38:43.659 --> 01:38:45.659
a record collector. So I couldn't compete with

01:38:45.659 --> 01:38:47.979
these guys who were playing really rare sort

01:38:47.979 --> 01:38:50.819
of Northern Soul 45s in 1968 and there was only

01:38:50.819 --> 01:38:52.500
five of them or whatever. Do you know what I

01:38:52.500 --> 01:38:56.300
mean? That wasn't what I was about. But I do

01:38:56.300 --> 01:38:58.189
have a good address book. You know, I'm connected

01:38:58.189 --> 01:38:59.890
to people through what I do, you know, when I'm

01:38:59.890 --> 01:39:01.810
promoting music. So, you know, I just started

01:39:01.810 --> 01:39:04.369
calling people up and then doing interviews with

01:39:04.369 --> 01:39:06.350
them. I think the first thing I ever did was

01:39:06.350 --> 01:39:09.430
with Nick Lowe. And then it was George Vigistica,

01:39:09.430 --> 01:39:12.310
The Bad Seeds and so on. And it's just been an

01:39:12.310 --> 01:39:13.810
interesting thing to do. Wow, you started out

01:39:13.810 --> 01:39:17.619
with Nick Lowe? Yeah. Damn. Yeah. So it's, no,

01:39:17.699 --> 01:39:19.939
it's been great. And that's five years ago, believe

01:39:19.939 --> 01:39:23.420
it or not. And I had no intention of presenting

01:39:23.420 --> 01:39:25.920
a radio show. It was just, it was just something

01:39:25.920 --> 01:39:28.899
that kind of came out of adversity. Well, to

01:39:28.899 --> 01:39:30.399
what we talked about earlier, do you know what

01:39:30.399 --> 01:39:32.739
I mean? But you started in 2020 from the get

01:39:32.739 --> 01:39:36.109
go of COVID. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say

01:39:36.109 --> 01:39:38.069
presenting a radio show is particularly creative,

01:39:38.250 --> 01:39:42.630
but it was an interesting experience. It still

01:39:42.630 --> 01:39:44.750
proves to be, you know, just talking to people

01:39:44.750 --> 01:39:46.909
about that, people I find stimulating and interesting,

01:39:47.130 --> 01:39:50.289
like Tav Falco, like John Spencer, like Reckless

01:39:50.289 --> 01:39:53.920
Eric or whoever. you know yeah no no i mean it's

01:39:53.920 --> 01:39:55.720
been good i mean but the other thing i did which

01:39:55.720 --> 01:39:58.279
isn't really related to music is i became very

01:39:58.279 --> 01:40:01.100
fit through cycling so like it was quite bizarre

01:40:01.100 --> 01:40:03.859
to be in my my mid -50s and be the fittest i've

01:40:03.859 --> 01:40:05.600
ever been in my life so there was this kind of

01:40:05.600 --> 01:40:08.100
weird duality again So, no, I listened to Tav

01:40:08.100 --> 01:40:11.600
today. We were talking about procedures of how

01:40:11.600 --> 01:40:14.739
you go in and edit and how you mechanically structure.

01:40:14.960 --> 01:40:16.840
Can you talk about that a bit? Like, what's your

01:40:16.840 --> 01:40:20.039
approach to creating the thing that people hear?

01:40:20.199 --> 01:40:22.699
I want to keep it live, even though it's pre

01:40:22.699 --> 01:40:25.199
-recorded. So I pre -record the interviews by

01:40:25.199 --> 01:40:29.500
Zoom. Then I edit them down. And then I drop

01:40:29.500 --> 01:40:31.960
that into the main body of the interview. And

01:40:31.960 --> 01:40:34.810
I play some music that I like. that's excited

01:40:34.810 --> 01:40:37.930
me recently and that's kind of it you know and

01:40:37.930 --> 01:40:40.670
i try to keep i try to keep a sort of a kind

01:40:40.670 --> 01:40:43.369
of uh an excitement so that how i feel about

01:40:43.369 --> 01:40:45.029
playing that music and talking to the people

01:40:45.029 --> 01:40:46.989
that i'm talking to sometimes it works and sometimes

01:40:46.989 --> 01:40:50.270
it doesn't but like for instance with tav i'd

01:40:50.270 --> 01:40:54.489
had someone else um lined up and we were going

01:40:54.489 --> 01:40:57.090
to do tav the next month but the other thing

01:40:57.090 --> 01:40:58.829
didn't come so i said tav do you want to do it

01:40:58.829 --> 01:41:01.550
he said yes so we because i had to come over

01:41:01.550 --> 01:41:04.720
to the us I recorded the interview one day, edited

01:41:04.720 --> 01:41:06.760
it the next and then finished it in like, you

01:41:06.760 --> 01:41:09.039
know, space of two days, which for me was quite

01:41:09.039 --> 01:41:11.039
quick because I didn't have any choice because

01:41:11.039 --> 01:41:12.600
I had to jump on a plane and go to Nashville.

01:41:12.659 --> 01:41:14.920
So that was quite immediate and you don't have

01:41:14.920 --> 01:41:17.279
time to hang around. It's not like I'm kind of

01:41:17.279 --> 01:41:19.220
carefully editing it and making everything sound

01:41:19.220 --> 01:41:21.520
perfect. It's kind of punk rock in its approach

01:41:21.520 --> 01:41:24.630
just to keep the vibrancy and excitement. the

01:41:24.630 --> 01:41:26.250
conversation, but also in the music that you're

01:41:26.250 --> 01:41:29.090
playing. Right. The only thing I can even cite

01:41:29.090 --> 01:41:32.069
that it's resembles sort of in a certain way.

01:41:32.149 --> 01:41:35.029
And I don't really have a wide, you know, knowledge

01:41:35.029 --> 01:41:38.329
of a lot of UK type things, but would be, you

01:41:38.329 --> 01:41:40.590
know, the pretty things, ugly things, you know,

01:41:40.590 --> 01:41:43.449
podcast where, you know, you're coming across

01:41:43.449 --> 01:41:46.210
with some esoteric stuff and, and, and, and older

01:41:46.210 --> 01:41:48.149
artists, maybe even, I'm sure you talk to younger

01:41:48.149 --> 01:41:50.989
people too, but at this point it seems like everybody's

01:41:50.989 --> 01:41:53.130
old. I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but, and

01:41:53.130 --> 01:41:55.739
you do, you, try to do very little editing yeah

01:41:55.739 --> 01:41:59.779
I do the same I don't want to do a live totally

01:41:59.779 --> 01:42:02.600
live literally presentation just because I think

01:42:02.600 --> 01:42:07.079
it's more succinct to give people the key moments

01:42:07.079 --> 01:42:10.239
yeah yeah yeah I mean yeah and sometimes you

01:42:10.239 --> 01:42:12.520
got to edit it because to you got to fit it in

01:42:12.520 --> 01:42:15.239
yeah like you know oh you have a certain time

01:42:15.239 --> 01:42:17.180
thing you're shooting for yeah I mean my show

01:42:17.180 --> 01:42:19.840
is a two -hour slot so I don't think we ever

01:42:19.840 --> 01:42:23.800
shoot for any particular Sometimes we go over

01:42:23.800 --> 01:42:25.760
two hours. This may be over two hours. Oh, my

01:42:25.760 --> 01:42:30.140
God. Poor listeners. All 11 of them. 12, thank

01:42:30.140 --> 01:42:32.199
you. They probably all know each other. They're

01:42:32.199 --> 01:42:34.159
probably all messaging each other at the moment

01:42:34.159 --> 01:42:35.760
going, oh, my God, we've got another hour of

01:42:35.760 --> 01:42:37.680
this. It's like, what's this got to do with Memphis

01:42:37.680 --> 01:42:39.680
music history? Why is he talking about tea all

01:42:39.680 --> 01:42:42.939
the time? Hotel lobbies. Let's talk about the

01:42:42.939 --> 01:42:45.170
cramps. Oh yeah, what do you want to know? You

01:42:45.170 --> 01:42:47.630
tell me. What do I need to know? Well, to me,

01:42:47.789 --> 01:42:50.289
the cramps. I mean, I like the cramps like everyone

01:42:50.289 --> 01:42:51.949
else. They're fantastic. Oh, everybody else.

01:42:51.989 --> 01:42:54.390
Yeah, I mean, we're all the same, aren't we?

01:42:55.609 --> 01:43:00.710
But the cramps to me were like a gateway to this

01:43:00.710 --> 01:43:03.630
other music. I mean, I love the cramps, but it's

01:43:03.630 --> 01:43:05.149
not like I get up and I listen to the cramps

01:43:05.149 --> 01:43:09.670
every day. But the music that I got into via

01:43:09.670 --> 01:43:13.329
the cramps, I still do do, yeah. Well, like we

01:43:13.329 --> 01:43:15.430
discussed earlier. Yeah, yeah. Like, you go from

01:43:15.430 --> 01:43:17.930
the cramps to the gun club to Tommy Johnson.

01:43:19.109 --> 01:43:21.229
But wait a minute. Did you hear the Ramones before

01:43:21.229 --> 01:43:24.390
the cramps? Yes. Okay. Yeah. But then, you know,

01:43:24.390 --> 01:43:26.529
there's that famous picture in New York of Kid

01:43:26.529 --> 01:43:28.270
Conco down the front of a Ramones show. So it

01:43:28.270 --> 01:43:30.770
all connects, doesn't it? I want to do a new

01:43:30.770 --> 01:43:32.630
project with the cramps, even though they're

01:43:32.630 --> 01:43:36.369
dead. Yeah. Well, luxes. And I can, the only

01:43:36.369 --> 01:43:39.130
people I want to work with are dead people. Right.

01:43:39.170 --> 01:43:40.909
At this point. I mean, I'll work with Dennis,

01:43:41.069 --> 01:43:45.430
but. Sometimes I look over and I'm like, did

01:43:45.430 --> 01:43:47.729
you skip a meal? Did you skip a meal, Dennis?

01:43:47.810 --> 01:43:50.970
Or what's going on? Hello, Gail. Gail's trying

01:43:50.970 --> 01:43:53.029
to tiptoe through. Gail will confirm what I'm

01:43:53.029 --> 01:43:56.069
saying. The cramps, all this stuff came so later

01:43:56.069 --> 01:43:59.529
to me and I met them twice and I did want to

01:43:59.529 --> 01:44:02.869
work with them while they were active and alive.

01:44:03.250 --> 01:44:05.729
Well, look, that's all well and good, but there's

01:44:05.729 --> 01:44:08.489
something interesting about the cramps that I

01:44:08.489 --> 01:44:12.399
think connects to... go back to Tad Falco and

01:44:12.399 --> 01:44:15.260
Panther Burns, is that, you know, the cramps

01:44:15.260 --> 01:44:17.720
evolved in New York in the mid -70s or whenever

01:44:17.720 --> 01:44:21.340
it was, but they took it to such a degree of,

01:44:21.399 --> 01:44:24.659
they were kind of more of like, you know, avant

01:44:24.659 --> 01:44:27.439
-garde art statement initially, taking very rare

01:44:27.439 --> 01:44:29.680
rockabilly songs that no one knew about and presenting

01:44:29.680 --> 01:44:32.600
them in this way with Brian Gregory with, you

01:44:32.600 --> 01:44:36.100
know, his spotted flying V and cigarettes stuck

01:44:36.100 --> 01:44:38.880
in the strings and Poison Ivy doing her thing.

01:44:39.720 --> 01:44:41.760
and Tav was just like you know he came through

01:44:41.760 --> 01:44:44.180
his like you know his art statement things of

01:44:44.180 --> 01:44:46.659
sawing you know guitars in half and it having

01:44:46.659 --> 01:44:49.600
someone like Alex Chilton to teach him you know

01:44:49.600 --> 01:44:52.119
that rock and roll could be art as well and I

01:44:52.119 --> 01:44:54.470
think that's really interesting because what

01:44:54.470 --> 01:44:57.069
purports to be rock and roll now is people have

01:44:57.069 --> 01:44:58.989
just grown up on rock and rolls you know i mean

01:44:58.989 --> 01:45:01.229
they haven't come from this left field of this

01:45:01.229 --> 01:45:04.909
completely separate way and then going oh well

01:45:04.909 --> 01:45:06.890
this is an interesting you know like the roxy

01:45:06.890 --> 01:45:08.850
music thing it's like let's take this art form

01:45:08.850 --> 01:45:11.130
and twist it and change it and come up with this

01:45:11.130 --> 01:45:13.550
new thing and i think the cramps did that i think

01:45:13.550 --> 01:45:16.409
panther burns did that i don't hear that with

01:45:16.409 --> 01:45:20.170
many modern bands now brian gregory similar thing

01:45:20.640 --> 01:45:22.699
Everything that he did and grew up on spilled

01:45:22.699 --> 01:45:25.000
into science fiction, even in the corniest B

01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:27.880
-movie kind of way. And that's what makes his

01:45:27.880 --> 01:45:30.899
lead guitar inept and brilliant at the same time.

01:45:31.020 --> 01:45:34.119
Brian Gregory is worth discussing about for a

01:45:34.119 --> 01:45:36.479
moment. Yeah. Because going back to me and my

01:45:36.479 --> 01:45:39.359
mate Ian, when we were... listening to the cramps

01:45:39.359 --> 01:45:41.420
and checking them out and those little fragments

01:45:41.420 --> 01:45:45.180
of kind of video that you'd get very very occasionally

01:45:45.180 --> 01:45:46.899
because obviously you didn't have youtube like

01:45:46.899 --> 01:45:49.199
napa valley yeah or whatever it might have been

01:45:49.199 --> 01:45:51.020
just like these little you know like the video

01:45:51.020 --> 01:45:54.170
for garbage man and things like that We genuinely

01:45:54.170 --> 01:45:57.109
found Brian Gregory to be, you know, terrifying

01:45:57.109 --> 01:45:59.590
and unsettling. Do you know what I mean? His

01:45:59.590 --> 01:46:02.310
acne was that bad. Well, no, he just looked very...

01:46:02.310 --> 01:46:04.989
I mean, he had a similar haircut to the guy out

01:46:04.989 --> 01:46:07.369
of the Human League. But unlike the guy from

01:46:07.369 --> 01:46:09.869
the Human League, he actually looked like, you

01:46:09.869 --> 01:46:14.409
know... Wait a minute. In Human League? He looked

01:46:14.409 --> 01:46:16.270
like he would come and eat you. Do you know what

01:46:16.270 --> 01:46:18.090
I mean? He looked like he would do you damage,

01:46:18.329 --> 01:46:22.600
you know. And, yeah, that was like... I mean,

01:46:22.659 --> 01:46:24.479
that's quite an achievement, isn't it? To actually

01:46:24.479 --> 01:46:26.859
scare your audience properly. I mean, I remember

01:46:26.859 --> 01:46:29.199
when I saw the birthday party for the first time

01:46:29.199 --> 01:46:31.939
or on a number of occasions, the audience was

01:46:31.939 --> 01:46:34.899
genuinely scared of them. And to have that sense

01:46:34.899 --> 01:46:37.100
of aggression. And, you know, I don't know what

01:46:37.100 --> 01:46:39.560
it was like here. But, I mean, when I first started

01:46:39.560 --> 01:46:43.020
going to shows in the 79 onwards, gig violence

01:46:43.020 --> 01:46:45.520
was just commonplace. You know, whether it was

01:46:45.520 --> 01:46:47.380
the band scaring the audience or the audience

01:46:47.380 --> 01:46:49.020
fighting or whatever. And that happened for quite

01:46:49.020 --> 01:46:50.899
a few years. Well, that starts with the Stones,

01:46:51.079 --> 01:46:53.890
doesn't it? Yeah, but this was on another level.

01:46:54.170 --> 01:46:56.750
Oh, really? Yeah. Funnily enough, talking to

01:46:56.750 --> 01:47:00.569
the Stones, you know the famous story where they

01:47:00.569 --> 01:47:03.310
were playing in Blackpool and the audience were

01:47:03.310 --> 01:47:05.810
lobbying stuff at them and all the rest of it.

01:47:05.949 --> 01:47:09.489
And the main kind of ringleader had his hands

01:47:09.489 --> 01:47:12.350
on the stage and was goading on Keith. And Keith

01:47:12.350 --> 01:47:14.409
turned around to him and kicked him straight

01:47:14.409 --> 01:47:16.270
in the face and smashed all his teeth out and

01:47:16.270 --> 01:47:18.770
the whole place turned into a riot. I went there

01:47:18.770 --> 01:47:21.149
a couple of weeks ago to a punk rock festival.

01:47:21.640 --> 01:47:23.640
It's a place called the Empress Ballroom in Blackpool.

01:47:23.720 --> 01:47:27.319
Same place? Yeah. Same venue? Yeah. Wow. Yeah,

01:47:27.359 --> 01:47:29.800
but it's this huge punk rock festival now. Too

01:47:29.800 --> 01:47:31.600
many hippies there now, probably. No hippies

01:47:31.600 --> 01:47:35.180
at all. Lots of 60 -year -old octogenarian punk

01:47:35.180 --> 01:47:36.420
rockers. And you don't have to kick their teeth

01:47:36.420 --> 01:47:39.020
out because they don't have any. No. Yeah. No.

01:47:39.119 --> 01:47:41.279
You kick their upper plate out. No. I mean, actually,

01:47:41.380 --> 01:47:43.420
interestingly, there was a mixture of different

01:47:43.420 --> 01:47:45.300
generations there. It wasn't all about it. So

01:47:45.300 --> 01:47:46.760
what's your overview of the whole thing then?

01:47:47.380 --> 01:47:50.359
I was just curious. I mean, actually, I realized.

01:47:51.050 --> 01:47:52.069
I mean, there was a number of things that were

01:47:52.069 --> 01:47:53.949
interesting about it. The first reason I was

01:47:53.949 --> 01:47:56.250
there, I was with this band I work with called

01:47:56.250 --> 01:47:58.329
The Corrects, who are not a punk band, but...

01:47:58.329 --> 01:48:01.170
I saw them at Garnerfest. Yeah. Yeah. And they

01:48:01.170 --> 01:48:02.390
were great. They went down really, really well.

01:48:02.390 --> 01:48:03.890
Oh, they're really great. Really, really, really

01:48:03.890 --> 01:48:05.810
good. So I was interested. My first thing is

01:48:05.810 --> 01:48:08.510
just to see how that audience would react to

01:48:08.510 --> 01:48:10.010
them and they loved them, which was great. That

01:48:10.010 --> 01:48:12.470
was really, really good. The second thing was

01:48:12.470 --> 01:48:16.369
I realised in my life, this is the first time

01:48:16.369 --> 01:48:18.630
I've been surrounded by 10 ,000 punk rockers,

01:48:18.670 --> 01:48:21.470
even at the height of punk rock in... my experience

01:48:21.470 --> 01:48:24.350
in the late 70s and early 80s and the third thing

01:48:24.350 --> 01:48:27.829
was to be i don't know if you have this over

01:48:27.829 --> 01:48:31.350
here you must do but blackpool used to be a very

01:48:31.350 --> 01:48:34.829
where this place is this festival is um takes

01:48:34.829 --> 01:48:37.390
place it's called rebellion blackpool used to

01:48:37.390 --> 01:48:41.869
be a a real kind of victorian successful seaside

01:48:41.869 --> 01:48:44.729
town as a resort yeah yeah like the beatles would

01:48:44.729 --> 01:48:46.710
play there yeah exactly this place the empress

01:48:46.710 --> 01:48:49.029
ballroom which i'm talking about yeah everybody

01:48:49.029 --> 01:48:51.069
would play there obviously the stones when they

01:48:51.069 --> 01:48:53.270
weren't i'm just impressed it's still there oh

01:48:53.270 --> 01:48:54.989
yeah and it's a beautiful building it's like

01:48:54.989 --> 01:48:56.970
this old victorian it's like lots of different

01:48:56.970 --> 01:48:58.989
ballrooms all in what part of england is this

01:48:58.989 --> 01:49:02.810
it's the northwest okay um but outside of this

01:49:02.810 --> 01:49:06.409
ballroom and a few other like bits and pieces

01:49:06.409 --> 01:49:09.270
in this town it's in a very bad way financially

01:49:09.270 --> 01:49:12.270
you know there's a lot of shut down buildings

01:49:12.270 --> 01:49:14.750
there's not a lot going on there the hotels are

01:49:14.750 --> 01:49:17.829
empty and it's just you know it's tragic but

01:49:17.829 --> 01:49:20.470
it's interesting to see how that seems to be

01:49:20.470 --> 01:49:22.869
failing but other areas of the UK seem to be

01:49:22.869 --> 01:49:25.689
doing okay it's just a very weird time at the

01:49:25.689 --> 01:49:28.250
moment so where did all these punk rockers come

01:49:28.250 --> 01:49:30.779
from all over the world So it wasn't just England?

01:49:30.939 --> 01:49:33.460
No. All around the world. It's like, you know,

01:49:33.460 --> 01:49:35.699
all different ages. Did you book some of the

01:49:35.699 --> 01:49:38.399
bands? Oh, no. I mean, I'm not a promoter. You

01:49:38.399 --> 01:49:41.760
just went to have fun. I booked the Carets as

01:49:41.760 --> 01:49:44.180
a booking agent, but I wasn't booking the festival.

01:49:44.319 --> 01:49:48.079
I actually gave the lady in the Carets a... Slavia.

01:49:48.670 --> 01:49:51.529
a sore losers blu -ray all right okay well i'm

01:49:51.529 --> 01:49:53.229
seeing that one of the reasons i'm here is that

01:49:53.229 --> 01:49:55.289
they're um playing in new york next week so i'm

01:49:55.289 --> 01:49:57.090
going to go and see them to go back to the cramps

01:49:57.090 --> 01:50:01.670
again real quick tell me about your i guess it

01:50:01.670 --> 01:50:04.409
would be your teenage years where uh the cramps

01:50:04.409 --> 01:50:06.649
caught your attention and and how did that reflect

01:50:06.649 --> 01:50:09.270
on you learning those first two records were

01:50:09.270 --> 01:50:11.270
recorded in memphis do you have any thoughts

01:50:11.270 --> 01:50:13.829
on that or how that you came to know that or

01:50:13.829 --> 01:50:16.909
did that influence you i think that's the first

01:50:16.909 --> 01:50:20.630
time i've heard you know, that's the first time

01:50:20.630 --> 01:50:23.029
I became aware of Alex Chilton. Okay. Because

01:50:23.029 --> 01:50:26.390
I knew nothing about the box tops or, you know,

01:50:26.430 --> 01:50:29.350
any of the other stuff that he was doing. So

01:50:29.350 --> 01:50:31.609
that, I just thought of him as the cramps producer.

01:50:32.109 --> 01:50:33.909
Isn't that weird that you would find out about

01:50:33.909 --> 01:50:39.529
Alex Chilton through something as marginal as

01:50:39.529 --> 01:50:41.489
the cramps instead of something mainstream as

01:50:41.489 --> 01:50:44.569
box tops? It's a bit, yeah, it's a bit similar.

01:50:45.470 --> 01:50:47.210
I guess, to finding out Led Zeppelin through

01:50:47.210 --> 01:50:49.170
the Beastie Boys. You know, it's just a weird

01:50:49.170 --> 01:50:51.329
entry. But you wouldn't have found out about

01:50:51.329 --> 01:50:53.989
Chilton through the replacements? No. No, I was

01:50:53.989 --> 01:50:56.229
never a huge replacements fan. Okay. I mean,

01:50:56.270 --> 01:50:59.550
it was, yeah. I didn't, yeah. I mean, I know

01:50:59.550 --> 01:51:01.630
Paul Westerberg's incredible, but I mean, it

01:51:01.630 --> 01:51:04.229
was not something that really connected me. In

01:51:04.229 --> 01:51:07.430
fact, I, again, I mean, I guess it's my perverse

01:51:07.430 --> 01:51:09.189
roundabout way of doing things. I got really

01:51:09.189 --> 01:51:11.289
into Paul Westerberg when he did Grandpa Boy,

01:51:11.390 --> 01:51:14.369
which was released on Fat Possum. And I loved

01:51:14.369 --> 01:51:17.550
his guitar playing. Well, funny enough, during

01:51:17.550 --> 01:51:19.869
the 80s, a lot of the music that I listened to,

01:51:19.989 --> 01:51:23.109
I only found on import because you couldn't buy

01:51:23.109 --> 01:51:25.970
it regularly. I mean, it got released eventually

01:51:25.970 --> 01:51:31.430
as a regular release. But I remember one album.

01:51:31.850 --> 01:51:35.449
It was a compilation of the first two New York

01:51:35.449 --> 01:51:39.449
Dolls albums. And it was a Japanese import that

01:51:39.449 --> 01:51:42.310
cost like £30. So it was way beyond what I could

01:51:42.310 --> 01:51:45.300
afford. And I'd go into the local record shop

01:51:45.300 --> 01:51:47.159
in Norwich. And I knew exactly where it was.

01:51:47.199 --> 01:51:48.640
And no one could afford to buy it. It would always

01:51:48.640 --> 01:51:50.899
be sitting there in the kind of racks. And I'd

01:51:50.899 --> 01:51:53.739
take it out and just look at it. And it was like...

01:51:53.739 --> 01:51:57.760
It was when Johnny Funders was... And this was

01:51:57.760 --> 01:51:59.659
before Sid Vicious. He was wearing a swastika

01:51:59.659 --> 01:52:03.140
armband over a leather jacket. And I think David

01:52:03.140 --> 01:52:06.779
Johansson had a kind of top hat and tails, but

01:52:06.779 --> 01:52:09.479
kind of with a twist on it. And the explosion

01:52:09.479 --> 01:52:12.039
of colour and all the rest of it. And I was...

01:52:12.380 --> 01:52:14.840
I knew some of the music already because I bought

01:52:14.840 --> 01:52:16.619
the other album. But I just wanted that album.

01:52:16.640 --> 01:52:18.100
I never bought it. I could never afford it. I

01:52:18.100 --> 01:52:21.100
never, ever got it. But I remember, I think it'd

01:52:21.100 --> 01:52:23.279
be hard to understand what that's like now when

01:52:23.279 --> 01:52:24.760
you can get everything immediately, that you'd

01:52:24.760 --> 01:52:26.500
just go to a record shop and pick up this cover.

01:52:26.579 --> 01:52:28.340
I mean, literally, I'd be just looking at it

01:52:28.340 --> 01:52:31.399
going, oh my God. But yeah, so when I could afford

01:52:31.399 --> 01:52:33.239
it, I'd buy imports of stuff that was available.

01:52:33.560 --> 01:52:36.800
And come the mid -80s, then all the hip -hop

01:52:36.800 --> 01:52:39.460
stuff was coming over. They'd come into the local

01:52:39.460 --> 01:52:42.500
record shop. on a thursday and i knew the guys

01:52:42.500 --> 01:52:43.960
that worked there and we just go through everything

01:52:43.960 --> 01:52:47.859
and that i remember hearing public enemy for

01:52:47.859 --> 01:52:50.020
the first time the first ever public enemy 12

01:52:50.020 --> 01:52:52.300
inch this is way before anything no one knew

01:52:52.300 --> 01:52:55.159
anything about them and it just had that droney

01:52:55.159 --> 01:52:57.539
jb's thing this actual song public enemy and

01:52:57.539 --> 01:52:59.060
we were just freaking out we're just going this

01:52:59.060 --> 01:53:01.300
is just taking it to another level and that idea

01:53:01.300 --> 01:53:03.680
of buying something you don't know where it's

01:53:03.680 --> 01:53:06.079
come from how it was made what's based on and

01:53:06.079 --> 01:53:07.979
loving it you know which just doesn't happen

01:53:07.979 --> 01:53:09.399
now everyone knows everything about everything

01:53:09.399 --> 01:53:12.699
don't they i suppose and and even in 1982 when

01:53:12.699 --> 01:53:15.329
i was listening to the punk rock cassette that

01:53:15.329 --> 01:53:18.210
george had given me i would have to say that

01:53:18.210 --> 01:53:20.229
the majority of the bands that were on the thing

01:53:20.229 --> 01:53:24.229
were european so you could tell it in the in

01:53:24.229 --> 01:53:28.010
the vocal uh but then again sometimes the vocals

01:53:28.010 --> 01:53:30.630
are so affected that you know americans are trying

01:53:30.630 --> 01:53:32.789
to sound a little bit english or whatever well

01:53:32.789 --> 01:53:34.550
it makes a change from the other way around isn't

01:53:34.550 --> 01:53:36.789
it yeah but but like with generation x and you

01:53:36.789 --> 01:53:39.810
talking about chelsea earlier i mean i haven't

01:53:39.810 --> 01:53:44.329
dug very far deep into that because the whole

01:53:44.329 --> 01:53:46.710
presence of Billy Idol as a solo act kind of

01:53:46.710 --> 01:53:49.430
kills your interest in something. Yeah, but that's

01:53:49.430 --> 01:53:51.869
an interesting point, just to go off on a slight

01:53:51.869 --> 01:53:55.329
tangent. Generation X were hated at the time.

01:53:55.449 --> 01:53:57.770
Were they? Yeah, like being a sort of teeny bot

01:53:57.770 --> 01:54:00.890
band or whatever. Huh. But the first Generation

01:54:00.890 --> 01:54:03.909
X album is a proper punk rock album. I would

01:54:03.909 --> 01:54:05.890
think so. It's worth checking out again. It's

01:54:05.890 --> 01:54:08.430
worth revisiting. Like, Derwood, who's the guitarist

01:54:08.430 --> 01:54:09.829
on this, ended up becoming a friend of mine.

01:54:10.010 --> 01:54:13.029
He, like... My guitar heroes, the punk rock,

01:54:13.109 --> 01:54:15.090
obviously Johnny Ramone, Steve Jones, Mick Jones,

01:54:15.270 --> 01:54:18.350
but the other one is Derwood. And Brian James,

01:54:18.529 --> 01:54:20.750
obviously, from The Dam. But Derwood is a remarkable

01:54:20.750 --> 01:54:24.409
guitar. It's like that condensing, the beauty

01:54:24.409 --> 01:54:26.270
of punk rock is where you condense the best of

01:54:26.270 --> 01:54:28.270
everything into that sort of two to three minute

01:54:28.270 --> 01:54:31.270
song. And his playing is economical, but like

01:54:31.270 --> 01:56:36.640
straight to the point. Right, and everything's

01:56:36.640 --> 01:56:41.560
very much like a buzzsaw set to rhythm. And there's

01:56:41.560 --> 01:56:43.460
a clip that just came up that I shared on my

01:56:43.460 --> 01:56:45.479
Facebook page for just some random impulsive

01:56:45.479 --> 01:56:50.119
reason where Billy Idol has red hair. I mean,

01:56:50.159 --> 01:56:52.439
it looks like a bunch of David Bowie haircuts,

01:56:52.520 --> 01:56:54.199
basically. I mean, that's the whole punk rock

01:56:54.199 --> 01:56:56.260
thing. It's a bunch of failed Ziggy Stardust

01:56:56.260 --> 01:56:57.979
haircuts. Yeah, but they had the back cut off,

01:56:58.000 --> 01:57:01.300
didn't they? Right. They defeated the mullet.

01:57:01.439 --> 01:57:06.119
That's the point. And so I shared this clip and

01:57:06.119 --> 01:57:10.060
it was rather magnetic because Billy Idol, maybe

01:57:10.060 --> 01:57:13.479
he's on speed or something, but I think he's

01:57:13.479 --> 01:57:16.300
just in love with the sound of this pure distortion.

01:57:16.479 --> 01:57:19.079
And it's so primitive, like it's like a single

01:57:19.079 --> 01:57:21.960
distortion pedal that's driving the entire thing

01:57:21.960 --> 01:57:24.960
and the beat, of course. But he's waiting for

01:57:24.960 --> 01:57:27.640
his moment to come in and he's bursting at the

01:57:27.640 --> 01:57:31.260
seams. to sing, but he can't sing. He has to

01:57:31.260 --> 01:57:33.539
wait for his moment to sing. And you can just

01:57:33.539 --> 01:57:37.020
see that in his persona and his charisma. And

01:57:37.020 --> 01:57:39.460
that is so exciting. Yeah, there's a great clip,

01:57:39.460 --> 01:57:41.279
which might even be the one you're talking about,

01:57:41.380 --> 01:57:42.939
but there's a great clip. It's a marquee club.

01:57:43.300 --> 01:57:47.140
No, no, this is different. Mark Bolan used to

01:57:47.140 --> 01:57:50.140
have this TV show. Yes, yes. And they were the

01:57:50.140 --> 01:57:52.600
last band to play on there. Right. And it's when

01:57:52.600 --> 01:57:55.439
Bowie... is playing with Bolan at the end. Right.

01:57:55.800 --> 01:57:58.800
And I spoke to Mark Laff about it, the drummer

01:57:58.800 --> 01:58:01.460
in Generation X, and he said that there was a

01:58:01.460 --> 01:58:03.340
mix -up when they came to the studio because

01:58:03.340 --> 01:58:05.619
they didn't have any of the gear to play. So

01:58:05.619 --> 01:58:09.000
they played Mark Bolan's equipment when they

01:58:09.000 --> 01:58:11.600
recorded it, and Derwood is playing Bolan's Les

01:58:11.600 --> 01:58:15.439
Paul. Say that again? Derwood, the guitarist

01:58:15.439 --> 01:58:17.560
of Generation X, is playing Bolan's Les Paul

01:58:17.560 --> 01:58:20.619
on it. Wow, and you can see that on YouTube?

01:58:20.880 --> 01:58:23.149
Yeah, yeah, it's all there. Well, you were speaking

01:58:23.149 --> 01:58:26.109
earlier to how Top of the Pops was more your

01:58:26.109 --> 01:58:28.270
speed because... Well, only because it was the...

01:58:28.270 --> 01:58:30.689
I mean, the first time I ever saw the Sex Pistols

01:58:30.689 --> 01:58:32.390
was on Top of the Pops because they're pretty

01:58:32.390 --> 01:58:34.670
vacant. They did a video which was broadcast

01:58:34.670 --> 01:58:37.750
on Top of the Pops. And by then, the whole of

01:58:37.750 --> 01:58:40.149
the UK was in absolute uproar about punk rock.

01:58:40.229 --> 01:58:43.890
And so as a little kid, you're curious and intrigued

01:58:43.890 --> 01:58:46.220
about this thing. And then you see it. And it

01:58:46.220 --> 01:58:48.399
is as good and as bad and as scary as you think

01:58:48.399 --> 01:58:51.699
it's going to be. It didn't let you down. But

01:58:51.699 --> 01:58:55.399
I see a direct relation to that in the Mark show,

01:58:55.520 --> 01:58:58.220
Mark Boland show, because he had the jam. He

01:58:58.220 --> 01:59:00.640
had Generation X. To be fair, the Mark show was

01:59:00.640 --> 01:59:03.560
more underground than Top of the Pops. Top of

01:59:03.560 --> 01:59:07.460
the Pops was a mainstream pop music show that

01:59:07.460 --> 01:59:09.479
would occasionally feature some of the punk stuff.

01:59:10.760 --> 01:59:14.020
Boland was very switched on and you know he toured

01:59:14.020 --> 01:59:16.960
with these people you know I think he toured

01:59:16.960 --> 01:59:19.180
he had the Damned on tour with them he had he

01:59:19.180 --> 01:59:21.260
had some great acts playing on his show if I

01:59:21.260 --> 01:59:24.000
remember correctly when it was broadcast it was

01:59:24.000 --> 01:59:26.380
like you'd come back from school And that's when

01:59:26.380 --> 01:59:28.199
it went on at five o 'clock. So you'd walk in

01:59:28.199 --> 01:59:29.779
through the door and put your school and then

01:59:29.779 --> 01:59:31.859
you turn on and there would be Generation X or

01:59:31.859 --> 01:59:33.760
there would be the Damned or whoever. All we

01:59:33.760 --> 01:59:36.420
had was Bugs Bunny. There you go. In America,

01:59:36.479 --> 01:59:38.760
I don't know when we discovered that Mark Bolan

01:59:38.760 --> 01:59:40.699
had a show. Thanks to the Internet, we discovered

01:59:40.699 --> 01:59:43.840
it. You know, he dies one month to the day after

01:59:43.840 --> 01:59:47.729
Elvis dies. And, of course, that performance

01:59:47.729 --> 01:59:50.529
he does with Bowie where he screws up and falls

01:59:50.529 --> 01:59:52.369
off the stage. I don't know what the reason for

01:59:52.369 --> 01:59:55.210
that was. But there's obviously a lot of excitement

01:59:55.210 --> 01:59:59.289
with the Mark show. Yeah. He's coming from John's

01:59:59.289 --> 02:00:01.630
children, you know, up through playing electric

02:00:01.630 --> 02:00:06.029
guitar. Yeah. And then, of course, I find out

02:00:06.029 --> 02:00:09.270
about a band called Radio Stars. Yeah. And that

02:00:09.270 --> 02:00:12.069
band. Andy Ellison, yeah. A good friend of mine

02:00:12.069 --> 02:00:14.050
from the UK, this guy called Andrew Hackett.

02:00:14.880 --> 02:00:17.340
We were going out, this is a long time ago, we

02:00:17.340 --> 02:00:19.520
went out for the night and ended up with another

02:00:19.520 --> 02:00:22.239
friend of ours, Boz Borer, who played with Morrissey

02:00:22.239 --> 02:00:24.039
and various other things and was in a band called

02:00:24.039 --> 02:00:27.100
The Polecats. And we ended up at his studio having

02:00:27.100 --> 02:00:31.380
a jam with Andy Ellison and the drummer of John's

02:00:31.380 --> 02:00:32.739
Children, whose name I can't remember off the

02:00:32.739 --> 02:00:33.840
top of my head, and we played Anarchy in the

02:00:33.840 --> 02:00:38.039
UK together. So that's probably a good way to

02:00:38.039 --> 02:00:40.079
end the interview and play Anarchy in the UK.

02:01:09.289 --> 02:01:24.569
Cause I wanna be anarchy No jobs, money, anarchy

02:01:24.569 --> 02:01:31.170
for the UK It's coming sometime, maybe I'll give

02:01:31.170 --> 02:02:17.840
her on time, stop her traffic The best high is

02:02:17.840 --> 02:02:18.260
the rest