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Hi, well, hello and welcome to the Building Bliss podcast.

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Today I've got Sarah Fox on as my guest.

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So welcome. Thank you.

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Now, I was going to try and introduce myself

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and then I looked at your list of achievements and the things you've done

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and all the different things you're doing and so I'm not going to attempt that.

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So do you want to give me a bit of an introduction of yourself? OK.

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So I'm a former construction lawyer.

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I call myself former. I kind of still do a bit of law.

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I'm also a qualified trainer and speaker and author.

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And I developed the five in a word concept where we take massive construction

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contracts and reduce in to five in a word just to kind of get across

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the essence of what the parties need on a project.

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I did what that was the thing.

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I thought, is she a lawyer?

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Does she still consider herself a lawyer?

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I do consider myself a lawyer.

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I do quite a lot of legal work in the sense of reviewing and writing contracts.

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I don't do dispute work and I don't do anything that's a restricted part of law.

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One of those legal services.

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So yeah, I don't run a law firm.

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No, but it's still in you, isn't it?

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I think it's still in me.

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I think it's hard to get it out.

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Yeah, I know that from experience.

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But you're also a professional speaker as well.

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Hi, I'm indeed.

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I'm a fellow of the Professional Speaking Association.

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And do you do that as after dinner, sour speeches or more in your professional

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capacity, more in my professional capacity, because after dinner

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it tends to be human also.

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I'm not great after dinner.

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The adrenaline kicks me awake and I still like a good night's sleep.

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So I tend to do it at conferences in order to get people thinking about contracts

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and to fall back in love with something, which should be a tool that helps them

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to, you know, share their expertise and earn cold hard cash.

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Yeah.

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Great.

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And have you also written some books?

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I've written five books.

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Yeah, that is impressive.

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Yeah.

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And they're all about how to write contracts, because what happened when I said,

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oh, you know, you could write a contract in 500 words, people, and I regret to say

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mostly men came up and said, oh, I don't think you can.

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It's like, I think you've either can go.

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No, you definitely can't.

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It's like, no, you can't.

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I said, I have.

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And they went to, you want it?

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Can't work.

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It can't possibly.

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I just write, right.

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I'm going to write a book to explain why it works and why it's important.

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What happens if you put nothing in your contract on that topic and also to give

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people simple language.

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A lot of people came back and said, oh, you know, you can't give people the tools

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to write their own contracts.

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It's like they just copy and paste off the internet at the moment.

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Why should I give them some words that are slightly better than just copying and

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pasting random stuff off the internet?

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Because the majority of small and micro enterprises in construction don't

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have the resources or the skills to write contracts or legal, in-house legal.

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They don't go to the big law firms.

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So they're winging it at the moment.

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Yeah.

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So I wanted them to bring it with a bit more panache style and confidence, really.

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Yeah.

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We're giving people power back very, because I know from my experience that

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either you get people who have copied and pasted several versions together,

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which don't work, or yeah, you've got like 70 pages of a member,

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yet to a standard form that was only 20 to start with, which is another one of my

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booklets, we won't go too deep into this section.

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But yes, I think that's great though, because did people say they can't be done

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sparing you on even more?

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Of course.

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Of course it did, because they mostly thought I was just an annoying young

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female who didn't know what they were talking about.

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And probably by the time they were talking to me, I was 20 years

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experienced at the contracts.

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I thought, well, I want to empower people, you're talking about, empower

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people to have more knowledge, to have to do it properly.

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And I want to have a more balanced review of contracts.

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So they're more mutual, so they're based on trust.

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So I said, look, this is just a framework, but because it's not as comprehensive as

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all the standard forms, people will need to kind of sit down and with their big

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boy pants on, or their big girl pants on, have an adult conversation when things

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happen that aren't listed on their contract.

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You know, the pandemic showed us that it doesn't matter how many words we've

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got on a contract, it doesn't cover everything that's going to happen to it.

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So therefore, why not just keep it short and simple?

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And instead of investing all that time running the energy into negotiating a

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long contract, which gets shoved in a drawer or a file or a computer folder,

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invest that in your relationship once the project starts.

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Because that's, for me, the purpose of a contract is to help manage the project,

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not to, and that annoy us to pick through the dead bodies once it's finished.

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Yeah, stuff each other up at the end.

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Yeah, we do.

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So we'll move on to our first question then, which is the, I should do the five

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pillars of bliss to remind everyone, which are bravery, laughter, inspiration,

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spark and success.

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So starting in bravery, can you pinpoint a moment in your life which you think

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was your bravest?

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So I've got two that I want to cover as my bravest.

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One was when I actually gave up my job in a law firm.

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I'd been offered redundancy and offered my own job back.

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I went back to it, but the process had made me fall out of love with a lot of

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aspects of my job.

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So I gave up work.

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My youngest son had a year before he went to school and I thought, well, I can

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spend some time with him, let's see what happens.

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And ended up setting up my own business.

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I never thought I'd set up my own business.

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I never thought I'd kind of become an entrepreneur, innovate and all this kind

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of stuff.

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So it was a big leap for me.

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I'm quite, I like comfort blankets, you know, for a comfort blanket, it's in the

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name, but so for me, that was quite a big leap of faith to do that and to give up

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what was a well-paid job, which had stances, which had flexibility, which had

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intellectual challenge and just leap into the unknown.

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Yeah, it is a big move, if that's a big move, something that I'm sort of in the

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process of doing, of transitioning from one field to another.

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And it's scary because obviously as a lawyer, you're well paid, as you said, you've got that

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comfort, but sometimes you've just got to jump out the plane and yeah, take a

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leap.

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I mean, take a parachute with you, but jump out the plane anyway.

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Yeah.

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So how long did it take you to get established with your new business?

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A lot.

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So I think I probably didn't take it seriously for some time because I had young

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children and they were effectively my excuse.

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So I set up a business.

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I did a training qualification.

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I did some workshops with people.

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And then I think when I started to, when I would set up my little company 10 years

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ago, I started to pay more attention to driving business and working for myself

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rather than being an associate for training providers and stuff.

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So it took a while.

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I had a few mentors along the way.

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Some of whom really, really helped me to see the value that I had that I wasn't

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noticing and to take myself and my business seriously.

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So probably it took me a good five or six years to really begin to say, yeah,

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I've got something that other people value and something that might be good for them.

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Yeah.

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And it's a great experience though, actually setting up your own business.

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And clearly you've got that freedom that when you work for a law firm, you've got

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every second accounted for.

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Why don't I serve a dude?

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Yeah.

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And I could bring my whole self to the business because I remember talking to law

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firms years ago and say, why don't we translate all our documents into plain English?

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And they said, well, we could, but clients don't want it.

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So why would we put that?

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So are you sure they don't want it?

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And I would kind of try to set up spreadsheets to make their processes better.

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And they went, we don't really do spreadsheets.

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Look, they're now all into that kind of stuff.

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But I was just ahead of my time and I just kept getting knocked back and thinking,

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maybe this is not the place that it's going to fulfill all of who I am.

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I can bring my whole self to work.

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So yeah, setting up my own business has allowed me to play and do all sorts of

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things that I didn't have a business plan for, but I've really enjoyed doing.

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Yeah.

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That's the thing.

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Once you start, you sort of stumble into all different areas, take it completely.

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Yeah.

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So that was your first one.

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You said you had two parades.

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Yeah.

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So my other one is probably by the time this goes out, me and my husband are setting

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off on a five month sabbatical on our tandem.

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Oh, right.

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We're starting for my first miles around Europe.

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Wow.

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So that's quite a bit.

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He's never taken time off work.

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He's been working for his, he worked for a pharmaceutical company for 33 years.

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I've had a turcy lesion and sick lease, but we're leaving everything that I know,

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my home, my children and the children at university, but leaving everything I know,

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my business and just putting it all on hold and going away and moving virtually

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every single day to a new place.

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So for me, that's quite a big, I'm beginning to feel it was almost about the whole thing.

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We've planned it to the nth degree.

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Yeah, it'll be fine.

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But I'm starting to feel hollered sweaty just talking about it.

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So I know that it's a mix of terror and excitement.

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Yeah.

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And I'm never quite sure at any point which one I'm missing.

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Yeah.

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Maybe just say it's excitement.

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And then, yeah.

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So what made you want to do that?

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We can't remember why it started, but I think about 10 years ago, maybe a bit less,

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we said, oh, yeah, maybe when the kids are grown up, we could cycle our tandem to Istanbul.

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And there's just like a jazz in the background.

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And then during the pandemic, we did a lot of cycling on our tandem because it was the

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one thing you're allowed to do, go out and have your exercise.

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And then we took it to the Swiss Alps and the French Alps and said, yeah, we can get

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up all these skills that we're going to need to get up.

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This is looking real.

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And then really sadly about 18 months ago, a really good friend of ours had a brain

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aneurysm and crop debt and she wasn't even 50.

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And we were like, oh, maybe this is a sign that we don't know.

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We could leave it until we was died, but we might never get there.

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So it was for us, it was a bit of a do it now, because then there may never be another

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time to do it.

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So it was just a, yeah, let's just do it.

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Yeah.

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Well, that's the thing.

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So many people retire and then within weeks sometimes they've passed away.

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And then it's like somehow being either the adrenaline of their job is keeping them

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going or they then suddenly completely lose their purpose because they are retired.

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So yeah, I'm all for people doing them bucket lists while they're alive.

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And I always say that I don't want to wait to get some sort of terminal diagnosis to

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go, oh, right now I'm going to do everything.

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Yeah.

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My dad worked really hard.

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He was a type one diabetic, but he worked hard to get pensions that he thought would

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help my mum and him go travelling when they were in their retirement.

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And he died two years after retirement and never got to see all that hard work of planning

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come to any use for him.

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And I, it broke my heart and I think it was just really sad that he didn't enjoy his

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retirement.

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He worked really hard for the last year to support his family and didn't get to enjoy

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it.

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So yeah, if we're going to go to the enjoying it then I'm buffed that.

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Yeah.

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Now I'm going to ask technical questions about Tandos because I've never been on a

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Tandem and I'm very intrigued.

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So does it make it easier having two people?

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Yes and no.

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Right.

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So it's very sociable because you don't have that difference that he's stronger than me

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and you know, all that kind of stuff.

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We can talk to each other.

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He's in charge and the geometry of a Tandem means the tall person has to be at the front.

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And my husband is nearly over a foot taller than me.

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So he's always at the front.

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So he does the navigating in the gears and I just see that if I can pedal and look at

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the views and just enjoy the whole experience.

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So I have a slightly easier joining the sense that I don't have such a mental involvement,

242
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,040
but the physical involvement is exactly the same front and back.

243
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:17,280
Yeah.

244
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,760
You can, I can feel when he's looking at the map and he's slightly distracted because the

245
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,600
pressure on his pedals comes off slightly.

246
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,040
That's and I say, can you, it's sort of ease up and take it into now.

247
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,720
If you can, you can, you can really tell.

248
00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,880
He knows when I'm taking a photo from the back because I'm not paying the same attention

249
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,040
to my feet as when I'm not taking a photo.

250
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:40,160
So it's really easy to tell when somebody I'm struggling or when somebody's just try

251
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:41,200
to take it easy.

252
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:41,680
Yeah.

253
00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:43,600
So you're going to have all your belongings.

254
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:43,920
Yes.

255
00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,360
Strap to the bikes or?

256
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,480
No, so we've got 25 kilos between us, including the bags.

257
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:50,880
Right.

258
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,720
So you've had to be very weak.

259
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:53,840
Have you with your path?

260
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:54,960
Absolutely.

261
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:55,600
Yeah.

262
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,880
Everything's taking a weight.

263
00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:58,880
We're weighing everything.

264
00:11:58,880 --> 00:11:59,280
Oh yeah.

265
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,680
I was always say that you've got to push that weight then.

266
00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:03,200
Nobody's ever got to the top of the hill.

267
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,080
I thought, God, I wish I had that set of weights with me.

268
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,840
That would, I could pump some iron when I got to the top because I'm feeling really good.

269
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,360
So no, you have to be really ruthless when it comes to packing.

270
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,640
Yeah, so you're going to cycle, are you getting a ferry up for Zoom?

271
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,560
Yeah, so we're getting a ferry because you can't put a tandem.

272
00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:20,560
It's too long to go on a plane or a train.

273
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:24,000
So we don't really have a get out clause, which is one of the reasons why we're in the end

274
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:24,960
not going to Istanbul.

275
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,800
We're cycling to Albania and back.

276
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,560
So we're doing a circular week because you can't, we can get the tandem home.

277
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:32,880
So we're cycling from home.

278
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,360
So obviously you've got to cycle back.

279
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,200
We're literally cycling away from home, we're cycling all the way back.

280
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,840
And maybe the exit plan is to load the bike somewhere and just take a plane home.

281
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,480
But we've had this tandem for about 25 years.

282
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,160
So it's almost one of the family.

283
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,040
Yeah, you wouldn't want to.

284
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,680
Not on the same level as my kids, but you know.

285
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:52,180
Yeah.

286
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,640
Wow, that's so exciting.

287
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,880
So and what are you going to be staying in like?

288
00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:58,960
I've already planned each stop.

289
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,120
No, because we wanted to give it a couple of weeks to settle down, to check

290
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,720
what progress we're making, you know, weather and all this kind of stuff.

291
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,320
So we normally book somewhere between three and seven days in advance.

292
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:10,820
Yeah.

293
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,400
So we have a replant because we needed to work out the Schengen area,

294
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,720
how long we were going to be in Europe, some nights, days.

295
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,520
So we've got our French Vinny's which cuts off in the first three weeks.

296
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:28,560
So we planned it all out on a tool cycle mapping tool just to see where we might go.

297
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:32,240
And also just to start kind of getting excited about places in the world to go to.

298
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,080
Yeah. So you want to actually take in places.

299
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:34,580
Yeah.

300
00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:37,380
So we're not going to be selecting every single day.

301
00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:40,740
No, but we've got some friends that we wanted to visit in France.

302
00:13:40,740 --> 00:13:42,420
We've got some places we wanted to go.

303
00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:47,700
Italy, we're spending seven weeks in Italy, decided a really witty way because we both love Italy.

304
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:50,420
So I've been learning Italian for the last five months just so that

305
00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:52,100
we can stop to make conversation.

306
00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:56,340
So yes, and the rest of it will be up in the air.

307
00:13:56,340 --> 00:14:01,300
We've got a rough idea where we're going, but we know that no plan survives the first day of

308
00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:03,140
wet weather on our icicle.

309
00:14:03,140 --> 00:14:07,380
Now, well, hopefully you're coming into a better period of weather in Europe.

310
00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:08,740
We'd say fingers.

311
00:14:08,740 --> 00:14:13,860
I'd say without too many heat waves because heat on a bicycle is quite difficult to cope with sometimes.

312
00:14:13,860 --> 00:14:16,260
Yeah, it's a spraved feed hot as it's raining, isn't it?

313
00:14:16,260 --> 00:14:20,660
But we can always get up in the middle of the night cycle when it's cooler and then sleep all day.

314
00:14:20,660 --> 00:14:24,100
Yeah. Well, you'll have earned your pasta when you're like turning well.

315
00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:27,380
You'll have earned pretty much everything, every meal.

316
00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:28,900
And are you going to like record it?

317
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:32,740
Are you going to vlog it or do some kind of record of what you're doing?

318
00:14:32,740 --> 00:14:36,980
So I'm going to write a bit of an eclectic diary, but not a sort of standard diary.

319
00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:40,980
And we're going to record it all on Strava just so we've got a record.

320
00:14:40,980 --> 00:14:44,500
When we come home, we can go, actually, yeah, we did do 5,000 miles.

321
00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:49,460
Just because I don't think we'll believe it almost when we go home because it'll all have kind of

322
00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:53,780
gone so fast and it will be, oh, what are we doing on which days?

323
00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:56,180
And then I'm also going to record an audio diary.

324
00:14:56,180 --> 00:15:02,100
Yeah. Just so that I've got a bit more of a sort of immediate in the moment, but also something

325
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:08,180
that I don't have to carry because obviously, paper style takes quite a lot of time.

326
00:15:08,180 --> 00:15:13,460
So yeah, we're going to try and keep it as simple as possible because we didn't want to create a job

327
00:15:13,460 --> 00:15:18,420
on top of doing the trip. The job is quite a big, the trip is quite a big job just because every

328
00:15:18,420 --> 00:15:23,780
day you've got to move on, find food, you know, find accommodation, check your reads.

329
00:15:23,780 --> 00:15:27,860
So mentally, there's quite a lot of work to do on every single day without thinking,

330
00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:28,900
have we posted today?

331
00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:32,260
Just because, yeah, well, I think you might get another book out of it, though.

332
00:15:32,260 --> 00:15:33,700
Might get a keynote out of it.

333
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:34,980
Yeah, we're in Portsmouth.

334
00:15:34,980 --> 00:15:39,140
Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm thinking, I presume you've watched things like Race Across the World.

335
00:15:39,140 --> 00:15:40,180
Yes. Yeah.

336
00:15:40,180 --> 00:15:41,620
Did that inspire you at all?

337
00:15:41,620 --> 00:15:42,900
No, we didn't have the idea.

338
00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:44,420
Oh, really? We'd already had the idea.

339
00:15:44,420 --> 00:15:49,620
And then a chap we know sent us a book called A Year on a Bike by a Dutch cyclist who just

340
00:15:49,620 --> 00:15:54,980
basically set off a cycle for a year. He's out there in his off-road book, two years on a bike.

341
00:15:54,980 --> 00:16:01,620
Right. But he's, you know, taken a much more photographic approach to his book. And we're

342
00:16:02,820 --> 00:16:05,140
not quite sure how much photography we're going to do.

343
00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:10,020
We'd enough to take a big camera, but the weight of the camera, the chargers, the lenses

344
00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:13,540
and everything else makes it less attractive. Yeah, that's a bit tricky.

345
00:16:14,020 --> 00:16:14,420
It is.

346
00:16:14,420 --> 00:16:16,580
Well, I wish you the best with that.

347
00:16:16,580 --> 00:16:17,220
Absolutely.

348
00:16:17,220 --> 00:16:20,820
And I don't know if I need to ask you if you've got breathing as you've got older,

349
00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:24,020
because I think doing something like that pretty much proves that.

350
00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:29,140
Yeah, it does. Yeah. But have you got breathing as you've got older or have you always been

351
00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:31,380
quite a resilient person when you say?

352
00:16:31,380 --> 00:16:36,340
And I think, well, it's quite interesting. I had a bad accident in my 20s where I broke

353
00:16:36,340 --> 00:16:40,500
my arm really seriously doing something which I thought at the time was really brave. And I

354
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:44,420
just turned out to be really stupid rather than really brave. And that pulled me off

355
00:16:44,420 --> 00:16:50,580
physical bravery for a while. But I've had three boys and they really encouraged me in a lot of

356
00:16:50,580 --> 00:16:54,980
respects because they kind of somewhat two of them at least have a bit of a what's the worst

357
00:16:54,980 --> 00:17:01,380
that can happen, mum? Yeah. And I've seen the way we've done more active stuff with them and how

358
00:17:01,380 --> 00:17:07,300
much joy they've had out of it, but also how much better they were outdoors and doing brave things.

359
00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:11,380
And we've done Fear for Artists with them and we've, you know, which is basically climbing

360
00:17:11,380 --> 00:17:18,340
up mountains, structural wire. So I forced myself, in fact, in some respects to be braver.

361
00:17:18,340 --> 00:17:24,820
And I had a bit of a fear of heights, but I tried not to pass it on to my kids because I know that

362
00:17:26,100 --> 00:17:31,380
dad doesn't and his parents don't have any fears of ledges or ridges or heights or anything. And I

363
00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:35,700
didn't want to influence them that this was something to be afraid of. I was just afraid of

364
00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:40,020
it. And that's my thing to deal with. And they were lovely about it. And actually, one of them

365
00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:45,060
was really, really helpful when we got to bits he knew that I was getting twitchy about. He just

366
00:17:45,060 --> 00:17:49,540
really calmly say with me and we wouldn't talk or anything. He would just lend me through it. And

367
00:17:49,540 --> 00:17:54,260
I think that was that really helped me to realise that I just needed a bit of support and I could

368
00:17:54,260 --> 00:17:59,540
do it. Yeah. I think that's the same with most things is get you've got to push yourself,

369
00:17:59,540 --> 00:18:05,460
but with the rights or things are achievable because I was never a very squirrely child

370
00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:10,740
at all. I broke my arm on an aerial slide when I was 10 that had no, this is back in the day when

371
00:18:10,740 --> 00:18:15,700
there was no safe. Yeah, I had no straps or anything just fine there on the floor. Yeah.

372
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:21,540
So I wasn't like that at all. But with the kids, I was not like I have become more daring. So I've

373
00:18:21,540 --> 00:18:27,780
had to go like paddle boarding, seven round up and part of the 120 miles an hour. I mean, I do

374
00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:35,620
I do drive quite fast anyway, but I think that's something that shocks me sometimes. And I think

375
00:18:35,620 --> 00:18:39,460
it's good to sort of shock yourself. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I'm to the blind

376
00:18:39,460 --> 00:18:44,420
lesson and a friend that took me up in I've been bidding an auction, a charity auction for a trip

377
00:18:44,420 --> 00:18:47,940
in somebody's chipmunk. And he said, Do you want to leave the loop? We said, Yeah, he said,

378
00:18:47,940 --> 00:18:52,260
not everyone's good with the, you know, looping the loop. And quite a lot of them find the

379
00:18:52,260 --> 00:18:56,500
traveling sickness comes in anyway, we finished the loop. And it was a beautiful day. We nearly

380
00:18:56,500 --> 00:19:02,100
made it. Alton Park, we're going out of Liverpool Airport. And he said, you know,

381
00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:07,300
he was in front of me. So we were sitting tandem. He was in front. I was behind. And he was desperate

382
00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:11,220
to know whether I was going to be sick and whether I'd gone green. And he goes, How was that? And I

383
00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:16,180
could not speak because it would be so much fun. And we had an amazing afternoon, buzzing around

384
00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:21,140
doing acrobatics in the skies of Bumbling. It was just, just brilliant. And I thought,

385
00:19:21,140 --> 00:19:26,100
do you know what, that's not an experience I would have thought automatically that I'd have enjoyed.

386
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:31,140
But I loved it. And I suppose I do have history. I did get on goal engaged on a roller coaster.

387
00:19:31,140 --> 00:19:36,100
I did too. Yeah. So I read that story. It was the eighth roller coaster of the day. My husband

388
00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:42,500
had asked me to marry him in February on Valentine's Day, but I wasn't expecting it.

389
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:46,980
For some reason, we would go and see my parents and he said, we needed to get back nice and early.

390
00:19:46,980 --> 00:19:51,380
And I thought, I don't know where this came from that we were going go karting. But he wanted to

391
00:19:51,380 --> 00:19:56,100
get back because he'd ordered 50 red roses. So how much that must have cost him. I'm February the 14th.

392
00:19:56,100 --> 00:20:00,420
God, I don't know. And we were in a rented accommodation and he gave them to me. He said,

393
00:20:00,420 --> 00:20:04,820
will you marry me? And I went, no, we're going go karting. And I was like, oh, shoot, that's

394
00:20:04,820 --> 00:20:10,980
what I'm answering. So it was quite awkward that day because he thought we were going to go out

395
00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:15,220
for a lovely meal and all this kind of stuff. And I was just like, oh, I think I might have

396
00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:21,540
messed that up somewhat. So we gave it a couple of months. So his birthday was in May and I,

397
00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:26,020
we went to Blackpool for his birthday. And I thought, I quite like the idea,

398
00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:31,940
not of getting engaged in a grotty rented accommodation, irrespective of the 50 red roses,

399
00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:36,500
but actually getting engaged on a rented place is quite a good story. So I just kept bottling it.

400
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:40,980
Every time we'd be out, I was like, no, not this one, not this one. We would like on the eighth

401
00:20:40,980 --> 00:20:45,460
of the day. And I thought, then this one definitely. So we were just going up to the top. And I thought,

402
00:20:45,460 --> 00:20:49,940
I'd give him a bit of time to think it through. So that right at the top, he'd say yes. I mean,

403
00:20:49,940 --> 00:20:53,380
he was just like, I said, will you marry me? He goes, yes. It's like, no, no, that's not quite,

404
00:20:53,380 --> 00:20:58,180
the timing's great. If I just buy, it was just brilliant. I'm probably the only person who's

405
00:20:58,180 --> 00:21:02,900
screamed for three straight minutes after getting engaged. But you know, I was that, it was a much

406
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:07,060
better story than the previous one. That's fantastic. Yeah. And like you say, a great story

407
00:21:07,060 --> 00:21:13,460
to tell. I tell the kids as well. Yeah. So moving on to laughter then. It sounds like laughter is

408
00:21:13,460 --> 00:21:19,140
very important to you when you enjoy laughing. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, a day without

409
00:21:19,140 --> 00:21:26,900
laughter is a day wasted in my book. My father was quite a witty person. I was one of four,

410
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:30,740
so I've got a twin sister, I've got an older brother and older sister. Our house was a house

411
00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:36,100
of laughter. I like to think, I hope my kids think our house was a house of laughter, but

412
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:40,500
you'd have to ask them to find out how I love this too. But yeah, no, I love comedy and I love

413
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:45,460
laughing and all that kind of stuff. And do you use laughter a lot in your training? Yes, to a

414
00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:50,340
plenty. And in fact, it's one of the most frequent comments I get back from people who'd been to

415
00:21:50,340 --> 00:21:54,820
training or been in the audience of one of my speeches ago. I didn't think anyone could make

416
00:21:54,820 --> 00:22:00,100
contracts sound funny, but there's so much humour in the stories to do with contracts. There's so

417
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:06,260
much humour in the lies. I think, you know, it's a really good way to engage people in a topic.

418
00:22:06,260 --> 00:22:11,060
And actually I want people to end up having learned something, but also feeling better at the end of

419
00:22:11,060 --> 00:22:15,540
either a workshop or a talk. So yeah, laughter is really important to me. Yeah, there's nothing

420
00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:22,340
worse than going to a really dry presentation and that you just, yeah, not a day without. I thought

421
00:22:22,340 --> 00:22:28,020
it was going to be dry and dusty, but it wasn't. And that to me is exactly what I want them to

422
00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:32,020
think. I want them to say, no, actually, there's something in this. Yeah. And they'll probably,

423
00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:36,820
I think you remember it more because again, you're creating an emotion associated with what you see.

424
00:22:36,820 --> 00:22:41,060
Yeah, absolutely. And it's not an emotion they're expecting. So there's also the element of surprise

425
00:22:41,060 --> 00:22:46,740
because nobody thinks, oh, contracts are funny. Just they're stevious, they're illegal. Yeah.

426
00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:51,140
You know, I've had feedback that says all of them. Okay. And you, in my first user guide for my

427
00:22:51,140 --> 00:22:56,660
final work contract said, now you sign this, go away and have fun doing the project. This is a

428
00:22:56,660 --> 00:23:01,620
serious legal document. It's like, yeah, but that's too short to get that serious, surely.

429
00:23:01,620 --> 00:23:06,580
You know, I thought, yeah, well, I think, yeah, it's interesting because I struggled with that

430
00:23:06,580 --> 00:23:12,500
as a young writer of thinking that I have to be serious all the time. And I think probably

431
00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:18,100
I suppressed my personality a lot, but yes, a bit. I'm actually one of my clients who I said I'd

432
00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:23,060
decided to do comedy with. Most of the really thought of you as a funny person. So after I

433
00:23:23,060 --> 00:23:29,300
took the knife out of my arse, I was like, oh right, but that was how it worked, which I'd actually

434
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:34,820
unifest myself. And it's unbelievable. It is unbelievable. And I remember vividly when I was

435
00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:40,100
about 10 years qualified, we did a mediation in Birmingham and it was between a large major

436
00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:44,420
company and their Japanese contractors. And they were halfway through a project, which was going

437
00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:48,980
badly. And there was a lot of dispute. We were in the second day of the mediation and we were

438
00:23:48,980 --> 00:23:53,300
really struggling with the cultural issues. We were struggling with, you had the decision making

439
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:57,380
powers, the fact that things were going wrong and neither side wanted to admit that they were at

440
00:23:57,380 --> 00:24:03,060
fault. And one of the chaps who was our client for the automotive company sent them a big

441
00:24:03,060 --> 00:24:08,580
common video, which was relatively coarse, quite a lot of swearing at. And I have no idea why they

442
00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:15,940
thought it would work, but it did. It really broke the, maybe the kind of stiffer politeness,

443
00:24:15,940 --> 00:24:22,580
with the, you know, the issues that were going on and allowed us to get a mediation and a settlement

444
00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:28,340
later that day. But it was a genius idea. It just had break the whole tension that was going on and

445
00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:34,260
been going on for months and months and months and had been taken into this mediation. And it

446
00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:38,740
worked. And I just thought, actually, there's some really good lesson here that sometimes it is,

447
00:24:38,740 --> 00:24:43,780
we need to create a change in people's emotions to get a new decision rather than a change in the

448
00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:48,500
data they're getting or all this kind of stuff. And I think this, you know, jams with a lot of

449
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:53,540
what people talk about, you know, emotional connection is really important rather than

450
00:24:53,540 --> 00:24:58,580
let's get too logical and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I think laughter is great. And now that

451
00:24:58,580 --> 00:25:01,780
I run my own business, I can laugh as much as I like. Yeah. It's an avarice, isn't it?

452
00:25:01,780 --> 00:25:07,220
No, not actually. No, I did always think when I was thinking of doing a meditate the mediate

453
00:25:07,220 --> 00:25:13,460
business, you got people to meditate, get into a then space and then because, well, like anything

454
00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:18,660
where there's conflict, it's generally between two people. It's not the businesses. It's two people

455
00:25:18,660 --> 00:25:24,340
who have got egos, who are butting heads all the time. But if you can take that out of there,

456
00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:28,820
it might be a good idea to look at, you know, and say, let's get real. We're not, we don't all need

457
00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:33,700
to fall out about. Yes. And you do get that breakthrough then. Yeah, I think that's right.

458
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:37,700
I think maybe comedy and collaboration would be a good way to do it. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So

459
00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:42,900
some of my clients have said, can you tell us jokes after we've gone through the pain of this

460
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:50,980
dispute? Yeah. So you said there that you were a twin. I am a twin. Yeah. And how was that growing

461
00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:56,500
up? Well, I've never known anything different. It's difficult for me to identify what's different,

462
00:25:56,500 --> 00:26:03,060
but we were very close. So we, I was the last, so I'm the youngest of four. But me and my twin

463
00:26:03,060 --> 00:26:06,820
sister were very close and we did this thing called twin talking when we were little. So twin

464
00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:13,460
talk is a form of gambling, which is taking some just sounds, but also some basic words and then

465
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:17,380
structuring them so that we understood each other, but nobody else could understand us.

466
00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:24,500
It's sort of in your high chair. So sort of 18 months to two and a half sort of thing. Yeah. And

467
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:28,420
at the time I know there'd been some twins who'd gone to school and it wasn't until they were eight

468
00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:33,140
that they started speaking English to everybody else. They'd been so insular. My mum was slightly

469
00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:40,260
concerned that we were going to be that sort of slightly weird twins thing, but we did learn to

470
00:26:40,260 --> 00:26:46,740
speak English, obviously, but we grew up, but we just had a ready-made friend, a ready-made

471
00:26:46,740 --> 00:26:53,140
confidence, someone to play with, someone to share things with. It was just brilliant. And I think

472
00:26:53,140 --> 00:26:57,620
it wasn't until we got to our teens where every teenager wants to be individual. When you think,

473
00:26:57,620 --> 00:27:05,700
oh, hang on, this is a bit difficult. I've got a shadow. But it's been great. And we come back to

474
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:11,460
being very similar. We've married similar men. She's got a couple of kids. She now works in my

475
00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:18,900
business with me. It's great. I probably speak to an email several times a day. Yeah. And it's been

476
00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:23,300
great when we lost our parents. We both grieved in a very similar manner, which was actually quite

477
00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:29,220
comforting because in families, people tend to grieve very differently. Some people get very

478
00:27:29,220 --> 00:27:34,020
insular and want to hide away. Some people treat it very illogically. Some people, you know,

479
00:27:34,020 --> 00:27:39,460
soft-sink at other people. And for us, we just found it a really great comfort to have each other

480
00:27:39,460 --> 00:27:43,460
at those sorts of moments. So yeah, we've been there for each other when it's been the highs and

481
00:27:43,460 --> 00:27:49,540
lows of life. Yeah. It's great to have someone by your side for that. Yeah, absolutely. So did you

482
00:27:49,540 --> 00:27:54,100
have the matching outfits and all that kind of thing? Or are you identical? We are identical.

483
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:59,380
When we were little, my mum said, look, I know people think I'm doing this because it's cutesy.

484
00:27:59,380 --> 00:28:04,020
She said, but if I buy you the same stuff, you won't argue. Yes. So we did have matching outfits

485
00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:08,820
because it made it easier for her. Because when we got different things, it was a bit, she's got

486
00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:13,620
that. I've got that. It's like, right, stuff this. We're not going to do this. And we were about sort

487
00:28:13,620 --> 00:28:18,580
of 10, 11 when we probably went to high school, that she started allowing us to choose our own

488
00:28:18,580 --> 00:28:24,100
clothes. So we did try and choose things that were different. But on my mum's 75th birthday,

489
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:30,020
we turned up at family party wearing literally identical outfits. The same earrings that we

490
00:28:30,020 --> 00:28:34,980
bought at the same trial fair several years before. We had not chatted to each other at all.

491
00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:41,140
But when almost identical, people went, did you do that to me? No, I swear we did not. But we have

492
00:28:41,140 --> 00:28:46,100
very similar tastes. So it just so happened we both found us wearing this and so stood it.

493
00:28:46,660 --> 00:28:51,780
So a few weeks ago, I had my 10th birthday party and she came along and said, I'm bringing you up

494
00:28:51,780 --> 00:28:55,620
because I want to know what you're wearing so we don't do the same thing. But there's still

495
00:28:55,620 --> 00:29:00,260
quite a lot of my clients had never met her and still went, gave a big hug and went hi. And she

496
00:29:00,260 --> 00:29:08,420
had a little card that said I'm not Sarah. Sarah, I'm not Sarah on the bad news. So have we got the

497
00:29:08,420 --> 00:29:16,180
psychic thing? I couldn't be sure that we have the psychic thing. But I remember about 20 years

498
00:29:16,180 --> 00:29:21,300
ago, it might be slightly longer than this. I got a telephone call. And I knew it was my sister. I

499
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:24,900
said, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what your question is. But I know the answer is

500
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:29,380
yes. She said, but I haven't asked you anything yet. I said, no, but I know the answer is yes.

501
00:29:29,380 --> 00:29:33,060
She goes good because my marriage has just broken up. I want to come and live with you. I said,

502
00:29:33,060 --> 00:29:41,860
the answer is still yes. So you definitely, I somehow that I knew instantaneously and it may

503
00:29:41,860 --> 00:29:45,860
have been, you know, a brain just picking up on tone or whatever. But you know, I knew that the

504
00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:52,020
answer was yeah, whatever you need to, I still in school. So did you make each other laugh as?

505
00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:56,820
Oh, yeah. I think I drove my mum mad because we'd sit in our hijack laughing at each other

506
00:29:56,820 --> 00:30:01,140
and she had no idea what we were laughing at and kicking at and stuff like that. But my mum used

507
00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:05,540
to tell the story of putting us in the bathroom when we were tiny, when we were able to sit up.

508
00:30:05,540 --> 00:30:10,180
So it must have been sort of 18 months or something. And running her finger down one of our backs and

509
00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:15,780
the other ones would wrinkle. And she went, wow, that was kind of freaky. But we don't,

510
00:30:15,780 --> 00:30:21,460
I can remember, it was well too soon. But yeah, we used to, there's lots of pictures of us sitting

511
00:30:21,460 --> 00:30:25,860
in this kind of twin buggy, which at the time was basically just an extra wide buggy. There was

512
00:30:25,860 --> 00:30:30,660
nothing to start with, just giggling. And I think she really enjoyed being a mum of twins because

513
00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:35,380
we would just, we would make each other laugh. We would literally sit around the dinner table

514
00:30:35,380 --> 00:30:39,460
with my dad and my brothers and sisters and we'd be howling that we'd be hurting because we were

515
00:30:39,460 --> 00:30:45,060
laughing so much. And sometimes it wasn't that we'd said anything, it was just a look. And nobody

516
00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:49,220
else kind of could get in there. You know, it's about a sort of atmosphere. So I don't know what

517
00:30:49,220 --> 00:30:54,580
it's like being a brother or sister to twins. I imagine it feels quite like you're on the

518
00:30:54,580 --> 00:30:59,540
downstairs, the killing dot in the club. Yeah, for us. And we didn't mean it to be, you know,

519
00:30:59,540 --> 00:31:05,300
like sort of exclusive club. It just, it just was how it was. Yeah. It's really interesting,

520
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:09,940
isn't it? Because did you pull the prank, the switching? Oh yeah, we've done that.

521
00:31:09,940 --> 00:31:15,780
We switched pranks with a boyfriend. He didn't notice for a while, so that didn't last around.

522
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:23,460
I think the one thing that I know that is going to be difficult when we're away for five months

523
00:31:23,460 --> 00:31:28,340
is not being able to chat to my sister every day. Yeah. And not having our birthday, being able to

524
00:31:28,340 --> 00:31:32,180
be near each other. I'm hoping she might come out for my birthday. That'd be nice. Yeah. So

525
00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:36,260
why was that? You said that in May? No, our birthday's in August. August is the birthday's

526
00:31:36,260 --> 00:31:41,780
in May. Oh right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in August, baby. It's 28th August. I'm the 17th, so right. Yeah.

527
00:31:41,780 --> 00:31:46,660
So we're both at the younger end of our classes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Which always makes a

528
00:31:46,660 --> 00:31:52,980
difference. I think it does. Yeah. So it sounds of laughter now. Who makes you laugh, is it other

529
00:31:52,980 --> 00:31:58,660
than people you know, any sort of comedians? Yeah. So I've been seeing a lot of comedy. I've seen

530
00:31:58,660 --> 00:32:06,660
people like Tim Thine and McBrown and Greg Davies. I quite like observational comedy because I think

531
00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:12,020
there's so much in life that's very funny. I quite like a lot of female comedians. I don't like

532
00:32:12,020 --> 00:32:18,260
coarse comedy. Yeah. I used to be referred to, or I used to refer to myself as the foul-mouthed nanny

533
00:32:18,260 --> 00:32:21,940
if there was swearing involved. Oh, that must be the foul-mouthed nanny. We know I had a nanny,

534
00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:28,100
so it's always been me. But at the same time, I kind of quite like my comedy to be pretty

535
00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:37,300
observational and not rely on shock so much. But yeah, I've done comedy courses and I have

536
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:41,460
done a little bit of stand-up. I think at the Professional Speaking Association, they introduced

537
00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:46,740
a comedy night and so you could do a five-minute set. So I've done two five-minute sets and yeah,

538
00:32:46,740 --> 00:32:53,060
both terrifying. But I'm glad that I did them because it's quite a discipline to make people

539
00:32:53,060 --> 00:32:58,580
laugh quickly, to keep them on your side, kind of have an arc and tell a story or just have some

540
00:32:58,580 --> 00:33:04,020
sort of theme running through and then just having the courage to keep going because it's really

541
00:33:04,020 --> 00:33:08,900
tough. But all your eyes are on you and they want to be entertained. It's not like a keynote

542
00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:14,020
speaker and they're not expecting to entertain them. They are fantastic. Whereas this is the

543
00:33:14,020 --> 00:33:20,580
other way around. If you don't entertain them, they're cross. Yeah, not happy. So yeah, I didn't

544
00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:24,100
want to go into it because I'm not good at the evenings and the adrenaline was just making me

545
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:31,380
not sleep. But I think it's a great skill to know how to keep an audience happy and entertained and

546
00:33:31,380 --> 00:33:37,940
laughing for fun. Yeah, and I think the only way you can do comedy is by doing it. There's

547
00:33:37,940 --> 00:33:43,220
very few things these days where you can only learn whilst people watch you be really quiet

548
00:33:43,220 --> 00:33:47,780
in the pitch. And you've just got to get through and you've just got to keep going and going and

549
00:33:47,780 --> 00:33:51,300
you know that there'll be other people that are rubbish before or after you and you're just hoping

550
00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:56,580
you're not on the bottom of the rubbish pile. Yeah, I sit there and I think I'm better than them. I

551
00:33:56,580 --> 00:34:01,300
think I'll do better than them. So yeah, so did you enjoy it though when you were able to do it?

552
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:06,260
I loved doing it. I loved doing it. I wouldn't do it again. No, why did you? What were your themes?

553
00:34:06,260 --> 00:34:12,100
So my first thing was about being a twin, right? And I kind of told the story of being inside my

554
00:34:12,100 --> 00:34:16,580
mountain and telling the story where we were in a dark place and all this kind of stuff. We could

555
00:34:16,580 --> 00:34:21,060
see a light and so it was kind of a bit of a play on all that kind of stuff. And the second one was

556
00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:26,820
about something to cause and my kids and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it sounds great.

557
00:34:26,820 --> 00:34:32,580
Might have to get you out of my comic in there. Yeah. Anything's mid afternoon. I do think there's

558
00:34:32,580 --> 00:34:37,540
a big call actually for afternoon comedy. Mine does start early and finishes by 10.

559
00:34:37,540 --> 00:34:42,340
For the other because I want to be in bed because I'm not good at late nights but comedy involves a

560
00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:47,380
lot of driving for two hours. Yeah, 10 minutes there and driving back for two hours. So, but I

561
00:34:47,380 --> 00:34:51,940
think there's a big call for afternoon comedy because there's like tired mums, you know,

562
00:34:51,940 --> 00:34:56,020
or people who can't get babysitters. Or just people like me who don't really like being out too.

563
00:34:57,460 --> 00:35:01,940
So I think, yeah, I think that leads to me my next campaign is for afternoon comedy. Yeah,

564
00:35:01,940 --> 00:35:07,380
I'd be up for that one. So if you've done comedy, got to ask you if you've got a favourite joke.

565
00:35:08,020 --> 00:35:13,540
I do have a favourite joke and it's an oldie but I just, it just tickles me every time.

566
00:35:13,540 --> 00:35:17,460
And it's what did the zero say to the eight? We don't know. My spend.

567
00:35:18,660 --> 00:35:24,900
I like it. Yeah, actually most people have done the oldies and they have been the better. Yeah.

568
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:31,380
But I was saying to, I think it was Jess who was on the podcast the other week, that you don't seem

569
00:35:31,380 --> 00:35:35,540
to get jokes, any like joke books with jokes in as much as anyone like, and I as a kid,

570
00:35:35,540 --> 00:35:40,420
I'd buy a joke book and I'd learn them all. And then you could drop them out at parties and stuff.

571
00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:44,900
And you put, I don't think, I think the next generation is learning. My dad was a great

572
00:35:44,900 --> 00:35:50,500
joketeller and he would string them out, but we would sit and listen to his every word as

573
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:55,060
kids with a transfixed by his joketemper. Yeah. So that's obviously definitely been

574
00:35:55,060 --> 00:36:00,420
instilled in your, I think. Yeah, absolutely. So moving on to inspiration then,

575
00:36:00,420 --> 00:36:06,420
who or what inspired you? That's a really, I see, I really struggled with this one when I was looking

576
00:36:06,420 --> 00:36:12,020
at this, cause I don't, I didn't have role models apart from probably just my close family.

577
00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:18,420
Now my dad was type one diabetic, hated diabetes, hated injections, but you know,

578
00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:26,420
kept going because he had to and overcame quite a lot. My mom was a teacher and she worked really

579
00:36:26,420 --> 00:36:34,420
hard to keep her family together and to work and just instill a good family life in us.

580
00:36:35,380 --> 00:36:41,860
So I kind of, we were quite, I think because I'm a twin, we were quite inward fencing and people

581
00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:46,900
would say, you know, who do you look up to? She wouldn't really have that approach to life.

582
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:52,020
And so I haven't had that approach for years. There was a lady who was a speaker called Joy Marsden,

583
00:36:52,020 --> 00:36:58,900
who sadly died about five years ago. She was unbelievably lovely lady, really good speaker.

584
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:05,860
She was somebody I aspired to be and really, really aspired to be her. But generally I kind of get

585
00:37:05,860 --> 00:37:11,860
bits from lots of people. So when I see something, I tend to be inspired by things or events rather

586
00:37:11,860 --> 00:37:17,380
than individual people, because I think all people are flawed. They have great times,

587
00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:21,300
they have bad times. And I think sometimes if we raise people up on the pedestal too much,

588
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:26,100
and then find out that they're not the people we thought they were, that can be quite difficult

589
00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:30,980
for us to ascend. So I quite like people who do inspiring things. So, you know, there's a lot of

590
00:37:30,980 --> 00:37:35,780
comic relief going on at the moment and love all that kind of, 30k last year, I mean, tears.

591
00:37:35,780 --> 00:37:42,580
Oh yeah, singling, and you know, I think I tend to be inspired by people who I can really relate

592
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:47,860
to. So they're probably more like my age. So that will change as obviously, and get older, it changes.

593
00:37:47,860 --> 00:37:55,700
People who just don't allow the norm to be there every day. So do something a bit different,

594
00:37:55,700 --> 00:38:00,020
you know, maybe they move to a foreign country, which I still think is we underestimate the

595
00:38:00,020 --> 00:38:05,620
challenge of moving to a foreign country. Setting up a new life, or just, you know,

596
00:38:06,180 --> 00:38:13,940
despite this time do something inspiring and don't allow the status quo to be where they stay.

597
00:38:13,940 --> 00:38:22,340
Yeah. But in terms of your idea, it's simplifying, did that come from a moment of inspiration,

598
00:38:22,340 --> 00:38:27,460
or was that literally, you just were seeing day in and day out, what wasn't working, and that inspired

599
00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:30,580
you to make that change? Yeah, so there was a couple of things. Actually, my twin sister

600
00:38:30,580 --> 00:38:34,660
had a conversation with me over a terrible cup of coffee, and waiting for a train at Easton,

601
00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:39,620
and we were talking about, you know, how can I, you know, create a brand that makes sense,

602
00:38:39,620 --> 00:38:43,860
you know, what was I interested in doing? I was doing a lot of training on construction contracts

603
00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:47,540
at the time. At Eid when I had the lawyers in the audience, and we were talking about one of the

604
00:38:47,540 --> 00:38:53,620
standard form, you know, contracts like JCT or EDC, I'd say, okay, so who knows what this contract

605
00:38:53,620 --> 00:39:00,100
says? And they kind of go, what? All of it. And you think, well, so you haven't read this. And then

606
00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:04,100
I'd say, well, let's just deal with some big issues. Like, what does it say about time? What

607
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:09,060
does it say about quality? What does it say about performance? What does it say about risk? And they

608
00:39:09,060 --> 00:39:16,740
go, really? No, I'm kind of like, this is just mad. It's mad that we're spending so much time,

609
00:39:16,740 --> 00:39:22,740
energy and effort on these massive long contracts, which we haven't read. But we're still spending

610
00:39:22,740 --> 00:39:28,660
hours and too much of our lives on wasting. It's like, okay, can I do something that's like just

611
00:39:29,220 --> 00:39:34,100
completely nudging it in the opposite direction? And I'm not saying 500 words is, you know, what

612
00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:40,100
you should be aiming for. It was just an amount of it seemed like a really massive challenge. Because

613
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:44,260
if I said, oh, I'm going to reduce this to two and a half thousand, everyone would go, yeah, that

614
00:39:44,260 --> 00:39:50,020
seems like really simple. But I was like, no, no, what could I get it down to? So my sister sent me

615
00:39:50,020 --> 00:39:55,300
the challenge. As my company is called 500 words, you can guess I managed it. But it took me a long

616
00:39:55,300 --> 00:40:00,420
time to work from scratch. What did I need? What didn't I need? What should go in? What can I

617
00:40:00,420 --> 00:40:04,660
safely take out? And I still get emails from people go, oh, I think you've missed this out

618
00:40:04,660 --> 00:40:09,140
of your contract. Okay, that's a really good point. But what would you like me to take out so I can

619
00:40:09,140 --> 00:40:14,340
fit your idea in? And I never get a reply. No, because they haven't got that answer. They just

620
00:40:14,340 --> 00:40:19,140
know that their favorite bit is not in it. Yeah, it's like, yeah, but that's it. It's not a toy box.

621
00:40:19,140 --> 00:40:23,860
You put all your favorite toys in and just gets bigger and bigger. This is a limiting scope. We

622
00:40:23,860 --> 00:40:29,780
have to make it work. Yeah. So I was mostly inspired by seeing too many people go,

623
00:40:29,780 --> 00:40:35,300
oh, we really know what this contract says. I don't see what a waste of opinions like.

624
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:40,260
What if we could make it easier for everyone? Yeah, combined with people saying it couldn't be done.

625
00:40:40,260 --> 00:40:43,780
By the way, people tell me they definitely couldn't do it. So at which point it's like,

626
00:40:43,780 --> 00:40:48,500
make that as good as a double dare to me. Yeah, red rags for the bull.

627
00:40:50,020 --> 00:40:55,380
So how would you like to inspire others with what you've done? I'd like them to inspire,

628
00:40:55,380 --> 00:41:00,900
to inspire others, kind of just think about what they would like their business to look like from

629
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:05,620
the outside to other people, because it's easy for us to get to kind of this, my business is

630
00:41:05,620 --> 00:41:12,580
how I deal with it. And it's not perfect, but it works for me. You're only a small business.

631
00:41:12,580 --> 00:41:17,380
What about all the people you relate to, all the relationships you're building? Are they

632
00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:25,700
relationships that are based on trust and care and, you know, working out whether or not when you

633
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:29,620
send something to someone, you're making them happy or sad? Because so many people send me

634
00:41:29,620 --> 00:41:33,060
their contracts and they're, well, don't read it. Just, if you could just fill in it and scan it

635
00:41:33,060 --> 00:41:38,020
and send it back. It's like, you do what I do for a living. I need contracts for a living.

636
00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:43,220
And if it's a terrible contract, why are you sending it to me? What's this idea that we could

637
00:41:43,220 --> 00:41:48,580
apologetically send a contract and go, oh, it's a bit rubbish, but don't worry about it. It's like,

638
00:41:48,580 --> 00:41:53,780
that'd be like giving someone a dinner and go, I burnt it, but be grateful anyway, because I've

639
00:41:53,780 --> 00:41:59,780
made you dinner. But why would I be grateful for something that you could make so much better? I'd

640
00:41:59,780 --> 00:42:05,460
rather be a sort of taste in a burnt, you know, muesli or whatever it was. You know, I think it's

641
00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:09,860
too easy for people to kind of be apologetic about it, as if it didn't matter, then it's not

642
00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:15,300
their thing. But, you know, because it's a contract, that's somebody else's job to sort out.

643
00:42:15,300 --> 00:42:20,180
And they've had a lawyer or law firm or a consultant to draft it and it's a bit rubbish,

644
00:42:20,180 --> 00:42:24,500
but they paid a lot of money for it. So they're getting used to it. And I want people to go,

645
00:42:24,500 --> 00:42:29,940
no, it doesn't have to be like that. They know their business. They can draft their own agreements.

646
00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:35,940
It's nothing magical about the words lawyers use. It's not like we're sprinkling magic dust around.

647
00:42:35,940 --> 00:42:40,740
They're not always sprinkling a lot of word soup, but you know, it's not really quite as nice

648
00:42:40,740 --> 00:42:44,980
for everyone else. So I just want people to kind of have the courage to start looking at their

649
00:42:44,980 --> 00:42:50,180
business and go, how would I like this to look to other people? I can take control of this. I want

650
00:42:50,180 --> 00:42:55,780
to be empowered to do it. I can have confidence that this works. And this will be a simpler way

651
00:42:55,780 --> 00:43:00,580
of running my business than what I'm currently doing. Yeah. And in a wider context, you think

652
00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:05,380
you've inspired people on the way with your, you know, your speaking and the way you go about

653
00:43:05,380 --> 00:43:09,940
things. So it sounds like from the feedback you've had from people, that's happened. Yeah. I think

654
00:43:09,940 --> 00:43:14,420
people have genuinely turned around though. I used to hate the idea of contracts. I'll tell you a

655
00:43:14,420 --> 00:43:20,420
story that I met years ago when I first started my speaking business, I was going around the PSA

656
00:43:21,460 --> 00:43:25,300
region, so the professional speaking association regions. And I went to Yorkshire to speak and

657
00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:30,900
there was a lady there who was part of a five generation family business and they were

658
00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:35,780
undertakers, but they knew that the old generation, the new generation needed to,

659
00:43:35,780 --> 00:43:41,700
the strategy wasn't working. They needed to split up this family business. And she was terrified.

660
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:45,300
It was going to cause a family rift that would last forever. And I was talking about the fact

661
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:51,460
that your T's and C's could produce TLC. You could have tender loving care as well as a contract.

662
00:43:51,460 --> 00:43:55,460
They didn't have to be separate. They could be the same thing. You could love your contract

663
00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:59,540
because it helps you to do what you want it to do. And she came up to me and she said, look,

664
00:43:59,540 --> 00:44:04,180
I think this is a really powerful idea. I'm going to do it. A year later, she came back and said,

665
00:44:04,740 --> 00:44:09,780
you changed the way we split our business because we realised that if we gave it to lawyers,

666
00:44:09,780 --> 00:44:14,020
we might lose control of the whole relationship thing and people's vested interests would get,

667
00:44:14,020 --> 00:44:18,500
you know, narrowed and they'd have lawyers working for different parts of the family who

668
00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:22,820
all had these interests. She said, we kind of agreed what we were going to do. We agreed the

669
00:44:22,820 --> 00:44:29,220
structure. We then gave it to a law firm. But we said, we kept being part of a family and

670
00:44:29,220 --> 00:44:32,740
looking at the relationship, making sure that the agreement didn't drive the relationship.

671
00:44:32,740 --> 00:44:38,660
The relationship drove the agreement. So it was so life changing that she'd managed to keep this

672
00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:43,380
family business and the family together, even though the business, that's when she changed.

673
00:44:43,380 --> 00:44:47,860
And I thought for me, that was a really powerful testimony to doing things differently, you know,

674
00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:53,220
and not allowing a lawyer to drive your business, but to drive a lawyer to do what you want them to

675
00:44:53,220 --> 00:45:01,380
do. Yeah. It's a reflection of the, we've always done it this way. Yeah. So it's the most dangerous

676
00:45:01,380 --> 00:45:06,740
sentence in any business, isn't it? Just being able to take a step back and go, is there another way?

677
00:45:06,740 --> 00:45:10,580
Well, there's always another way, isn't there? Yeah. But I think lots of people haven't heard

678
00:45:10,580 --> 00:45:14,980
of there being another way. So for me, I'm kind of trying to inspire people by being a light going,

679
00:45:14,980 --> 00:45:20,100
there is another way. You know, it's not perfect, but this could see your business as well as,

680
00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:25,540
wait, yeah, just think about it. Have you felt like you're a bit of a lone voice in the wind at

681
00:45:25,540 --> 00:45:29,460
sometimes? Yes. Yes. When I first started, I really did feel like a lone voice in the wind,

682
00:45:29,460 --> 00:45:34,020
but there's such a lot of people that I've met in the contract simplification, the contract

683
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:40,740
visualization, the legal design community, lots of apps and tools coming out. So there's a much,

684
00:45:40,740 --> 00:45:45,700
there's a big global phenomenon. And lots of people are interested in this. Big companies

685
00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:50,740
like Google and Amazon have realized that they can't contract with smaller innovative startups

686
00:45:50,740 --> 00:45:55,060
because their contracting process has become overlauered. So they reason movement to move

687
00:45:55,060 --> 00:46:00,100
towards tools which actually help them do business rather than just tie them up in legal meetings

688
00:46:00,100 --> 00:46:04,260
for ever and ever and ever. They need to start with the terms and conditions where they say,

689
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:09,300
accept this, when you have said it in that, as a lady, actually, like, yeah,

690
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:13,380
nobody reads those terms. Someone posted them out, weren't they? 800 payers or something,

691
00:46:13,380 --> 00:46:17,540
Apple's terms and conditions. Not quite as long as that. So, so,

692
00:46:17,540 --> 00:46:21,780
Apple's were about 25,000. And there was a chap that did a comic book based on the

693
00:46:21,780 --> 00:46:25,940
Apple terms and conditions. The Norwegian Consumer Council once read all the terms

694
00:46:25,940 --> 00:46:30,260
and conditions on a smartphone that are pre-loaded, albeit terms and conditions for

695
00:46:30,260 --> 00:46:35,140
those apps took them 33 hours. There's nobody and that was literally from start to finish,

696
00:46:35,140 --> 00:46:39,060
they didn't have any breaks. But nobody sits down, opens a new phone and goes,

697
00:46:39,060 --> 00:46:42,900
tell me what I'm just going to check what I am, the terms and conditions. We don't do it.

698
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:47,860
I don't. Well, I don't either. And the thing is, that means that terms and conditions,

699
00:46:47,860 --> 00:46:51,620
which are part of contracts, which are part of agreements, have got a bit of a bad reputation,

700
00:46:51,620 --> 00:46:54,900
then we can't do anything about them. So we might as well just tick out of

701
00:46:54,900 --> 00:47:00,580
here and ignore them. Yeah. And yet that's also not a good way to run relationships and businesses.

702
00:47:00,580 --> 00:47:06,340
So, you know, we need to kind of focus on what we can change and then not worry about some.

703
00:47:06,340 --> 00:47:10,820
Okay. And do you think AI will have a big influence on that going forward?

704
00:47:10,820 --> 00:47:15,540
I think there's two. I think it could have a big influence on it. I think at the moment,

705
00:47:15,540 --> 00:47:20,500
a lot of the contract review platforms are just comparing bad apples with bad apples and going,

706
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:24,180
yeah, it's as wrong as the existing apples, which is not necessarily a great thing.

707
00:47:24,180 --> 00:47:27,700
And if you offer them an orange, which is maybe a really simple visual contract,

708
00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:31,860
they're all, it doesn't look like the bad apple. So we reject it. However,

709
00:47:31,860 --> 00:47:35,380
if they have a slightly more sophisticated approach, where they go, you need a paragraph

710
00:47:35,380 --> 00:47:38,900
that talks about parties, you need a paragraph that talks about the scope, you need a paragraph

711
00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:43,940
that talks about time, you need a paragraph that talks about this. If you've got a kind of structure

712
00:47:43,940 --> 00:47:47,860
and you're saying, does it have all these things in? I think that's a much more sophisticated

713
00:47:47,860 --> 00:47:52,580
approach because it allows simpler documents to also get exactly the same rating as a complicated

714
00:47:52,580 --> 00:47:56,740
document. So I think it's going to get more sophisticated. At the moment, we're just comparing

715
00:47:56,740 --> 00:48:03,060
bad apple to bad apples. Yeah. So do you think your journey on your tandem is going to inspire

716
00:48:03,060 --> 00:48:08,340
people once you get the AI? Your story out? I think it probably will. I think if we make it

717
00:48:08,340 --> 00:48:12,660
to the end, it certainly will. But I think there'll be lots of lessons that we learn along the way

718
00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:16,740
that we'll bring back into our lives. And we've said, we don't know how it's going to change us,

719
00:48:16,740 --> 00:48:21,780
but we know it's going to change us. Yeah. And that's a great legacy to have from the tricky.

720
00:48:23,380 --> 00:48:31,540
Moving on to Spark then, what gives you your spark? That's a really good question. I am very much an

721
00:48:31,540 --> 00:48:38,500
outdoorsy person. So I find that just being outside, I always find something that's interesting or

722
00:48:38,500 --> 00:48:45,380
exciting or new. And I've taken a kind of a preach that involves having an adventure every day. And

723
00:48:45,380 --> 00:48:49,700
some of that is literally just touching a plant that you've never seen, that you haven't seen for

724
00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:54,900
ages. Because I think we can get hung up in adventures being massive, you know, find them a

725
00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:59,220
ton of tricks around Europe. And actually, every single day, we probably see something new or hear

726
00:48:59,220 --> 00:49:06,260
something new or smell something new. And we don't record it. We don't stop enough to pause and go,

727
00:49:06,260 --> 00:49:12,180
actually, that's really interesting. And I think one of the things I learn also in my business is

728
00:49:12,180 --> 00:49:18,980
that actually, I find a lot of inspiration and spark from other parts of other businesses. So,

729
00:49:18,980 --> 00:49:25,380
you know, rather than being too construction law focused, just seeing what is out there that might

730
00:49:25,380 --> 00:49:30,100
be something that I can draw inspiration from or get a spark from or, you know, start an idea.

731
00:49:31,620 --> 00:49:38,180
So yeah, I kind of, I'm quite sparky in the sense that, you know, I would go off on tangents.

732
00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:43,940
But I think, in my own business, I'm able to do that. I kind of will follow threads that interest

733
00:49:43,940 --> 00:49:48,420
me and say, how can I relate that? How does that work? And, you know, which story am I going to

734
00:49:48,420 --> 00:49:55,940
tell? And what's going to change as a result of this conversation? So I just think there's sparks

735
00:49:55,940 --> 00:50:00,740
everywhere. We just don't spot them enough because we've got our dark glasses on most of the time.

736
00:50:01,380 --> 00:50:06,900
Tunnel vision focused on what we thought the day was going to involve. And driving here, I was like,

737
00:50:06,900 --> 00:50:10,980
oh, we're not very far from Portson. We've never got time to pop in on the way there.

738
00:50:12,340 --> 00:50:17,860
I kind of think, you know, museums and art and all that kind of stuff is really fascinating. I think

739
00:50:17,860 --> 00:50:24,020
I read a lot. I decided I'd start logging in on Goodreads this year because I read so much that

740
00:50:24,020 --> 00:50:30,820
I forget what I've read. You know, I read, but quite disposably in the sense that people will say,

741
00:50:30,820 --> 00:50:36,980
what did you read last week? I go, oh, actually, we've been done three books on from last week. So

742
00:50:36,980 --> 00:50:45,220
Robert Blaine. That would be nice. I just devour books. And is that nonfiction or fiction?

743
00:50:45,220 --> 00:50:49,540
Or both of them. Yeah, a bit of both. So yeah, all sorts of books. I've kind of,

744
00:50:49,540 --> 00:50:55,060
I suppose you might call a book slutry. In the sense that I read almost anything.

745
00:50:55,060 --> 00:51:00,020
I sometimes have the point where it's like I read too many, you know, dark political books. I need

746
00:51:00,020 --> 00:51:05,700
to have something a bit light and fluffy. But yeah, I'm a big fan of reading. Really interesting

747
00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:10,740
what you say about the small things, because I always say, one of my favourite, I think it's

748
00:51:10,740 --> 00:51:15,860
from Oliver, is small pleasures, small pleasures who would denies these. And I don't know if that's

749
00:51:15,860 --> 00:51:21,940
something as you get older, you perhaps think more, but I'm like, you know, just to walk in the woods

750
00:51:21,940 --> 00:51:27,780
and then have a delicious coffee, sit outside, looking at the water, which is near here. To me,

751
00:51:27,780 --> 00:51:33,860
that's like perfect. Yeah, it's joyous. But we could just pass that by, couldn't you? You could

752
00:51:33,860 --> 00:51:40,020
just go on, just go on for a walk and just get around. I think so when my youngest son was six

753
00:51:40,020 --> 00:51:44,100
weeks old, no, middle son was six weeks old, I had a two year old and a six week old, I slipped

754
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:49,620
two discs and I was in bed for six months. I couldn't sit, I couldn't walk, I couldn't hold

755
00:51:49,620 --> 00:51:55,700
my children. I couldn't feed myself very easily. Didn't go out of the house. Didn't feel the wind.

756
00:51:55,700 --> 00:52:01,140
I couldn't have a shower. So after that, I remember the first time I stood up in a hot shower and I

757
00:52:01,140 --> 00:52:07,140
was just in tears thinking, I'd never really thought about what privilege it is to stand

758
00:52:07,140 --> 00:52:13,860
in a shower, just feeling the water going over you and not be in pain and, you know, have all

759
00:52:13,860 --> 00:52:18,580
that kind of stuff. And that was, it was such a powerful and such a long period of my life,

760
00:52:19,300 --> 00:52:24,820
six months, quite a long time, you know, to be, you know, unable to move. But if it's what else

761
00:52:24,820 --> 00:52:29,940
was going on in the household, you know, I've never forgotten how grateful I was for that.

762
00:52:29,940 --> 00:52:36,180
Yeah. But also when I had my third child, I ended up with a serious infection that nobody

763
00:52:36,180 --> 00:52:42,260
picked up and ended up with a massive amount of blood loss and nearly died. And realized that

764
00:52:42,260 --> 00:52:48,020
actually being able to see my kids grow up was also a privilege. Because the day after I'd been

765
00:52:48,020 --> 00:52:51,540
rushed to hospital, and they were going to give me a blood transfusion because I'd lost such a

766
00:52:51,540 --> 00:52:56,500
lot of blood, the consultant came in and went, well, Mrs. Box, yes, maternal postpartum bleeding

767
00:52:56,500 --> 00:53:01,700
is a major cause of death in the vascular arteries. It's like, I don't even know about breakfast yet

768
00:53:01,700 --> 00:53:07,620
and now I feel really quite polished. Just what you said has just gone, basically you could have

769
00:53:07,620 --> 00:53:13,540
died. Yeah. And I was like, oh, oh, that is really quite safe. Really, that's, so I think

770
00:53:13,540 --> 00:53:18,820
both of those together have given me a really great appreciation just for the little things in life.

771
00:53:18,820 --> 00:53:22,340
When you've had little children, they are fascinated by everything. Yeah. You know,

772
00:53:22,340 --> 00:53:26,740
a spider, a leaf can go for a walk with a four year old and it could take you hours just to

773
00:53:26,740 --> 00:53:30,900
get you down the road because they're fascinated by everything. So I know all of those things,

774
00:53:30,900 --> 00:53:36,900
I kind of, I don't want to get to the point where I treat every day as just another day. No,

775
00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:42,180
it's a privilege to wake up in a warm house, you know, all that kind of stuff. I think we have to

776
00:53:42,180 --> 00:53:48,020
keep that sort of tiny moments of inspiration and spot all the time so that we're always

777
00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:54,340
not taking it for granted. Yeah. And it's so easily done because we live in a fast paced world now

778
00:53:54,340 --> 00:54:00,420
and we're all glued to our phone screens to some degree. And I obviously see that with my children

779
00:54:00,420 --> 00:54:05,940
and both, as you say, as small children, my daughter was a notice set, you know, like you say,

780
00:54:05,940 --> 00:54:12,020
a nice leaf, a twink, and then we'd collect them all. And you're like, it's a shame that we somehow

781
00:54:12,020 --> 00:54:18,580
lose that, isn't it? Yeah. And they take something dramatic to perhaps remind us of it. And I think,

782
00:54:18,580 --> 00:54:24,340
you know, we need reminding that, you know, every single day is, well, should be full of joy and

783
00:54:24,340 --> 00:54:32,660
wonder and adventure. So how did you cope in that six months? What did you do for your sort of mental

784
00:54:32,660 --> 00:54:39,220
health? Did you try and have a mindfulness practice or was it the thing that... It was the thing,

785
00:54:39,220 --> 00:54:44,740
you know, it was about 20 something years ago. My sister, who's a nurse, came and she used to kind

786
00:54:44,740 --> 00:54:49,620
of get people around to give me massages and stuff like that to try and make me feel like I was like,

787
00:54:49,620 --> 00:54:54,580
I did a lot of cross stitch. I started doing cross stitch and patchwork. And thankfully,

788
00:54:54,580 --> 00:54:59,700
the World Cup was on that year. So I was be single match. Literally, I had nothing better to do.

789
00:55:01,380 --> 00:55:05,940
But I started doing a patchwork and it was a memory patchwork with squares from, you know,

790
00:55:05,940 --> 00:55:11,140
my dad's ties or, you know, fabric that I had in the cupboard. I'm just about to finish it 22 years.

791
00:55:12,660 --> 00:55:17,700
But I did start my first patchwork and I did decide it was going to be a king size bread spread. So

792
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:23,220
maybe I could have gone smaller. I wasn't going to first ever do. But, you know, so I suppose I was

793
00:55:23,220 --> 00:55:27,300
being mindful doing cross stitch. I did do some sewing and it was all hand done and it was just

794
00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:32,340
something that was light and I could do lying down or lying on one side because I couldn't sit up for

795
00:55:32,340 --> 00:55:39,700
six months. So, I mean, yeah, I think having the two kids was in some respects a distraction

796
00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:44,420
because I knew I had to get better at the room. I knew that I wanted to walk before my new son did.

797
00:55:44,420 --> 00:55:49,540
Yeah. And I wanted to sit up before he did. He beat me to sitting up but I beat him to walking.

798
00:55:49,540 --> 00:55:56,980
So, you know, it was a bit of a competitive. So, but did you know how long that was going to be?

799
00:55:56,980 --> 00:56:02,340
Or was it you saw all this right dig for weeks and up? I had no idea. But I know my mum had

800
00:56:02,340 --> 00:56:08,340
sit her discs. She'd been in a rabbit hole. The rabbit was not her favourite pet after that.

801
00:56:09,220 --> 00:56:14,260
But I don't remember how long it had taken. I know that she had been pulled in. We had an

802
00:56:14,260 --> 00:56:18,420
all come and stay to look after us. But I don't remember how long it lasted by, you know, kept

803
00:56:18,420 --> 00:56:22,020
going to the surgeons and the consultants to go, well, we don't know how long it's going to last.

804
00:56:22,020 --> 00:56:26,580
You know, pain is like that. We just have to wait for it to settle down. We could give you surgery,

805
00:56:26,580 --> 00:56:29,860
but there's no evidence that in two years time, you'll be better off than people who didn't have

806
00:56:29,860 --> 00:56:34,340
surgery. And the surgery carries a massive risk that they understand these slides through a nerve

807
00:56:34,340 --> 00:56:40,980
and you end up paralysed. So, it's like, do we have to do it? But, you know, they would just try to

808
00:56:40,980 --> 00:56:45,460
manage my pain. They weren't actually trying to resolve the underlying issue of a bulging disc.

809
00:56:45,460 --> 00:56:50,500
They were just trying to take me out of pain so that hopefully my body would solve the daughter

810
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:57,060
sub-fab. And is that what happened? Yeah, it did in me. It receded to the, or receded out. Then I

811
00:56:57,060 --> 00:57:04,580
could walk again and thankfully, you know, it hasn't repeated itself. But yeah, it was a very

812
00:57:04,580 --> 00:57:09,620
uncertain time. Do you know why it doesn't sound like you've like restricted yourself, wrapped

813
00:57:09,620 --> 00:57:14,180
yourself in cotton cloth? No? Sorry, for all the things you've done. And to be honest, I worked

814
00:57:14,180 --> 00:57:18,340
hard with an osteopath to make sure that when I started doing, I started running and everyone

815
00:57:18,340 --> 00:57:22,260
came to intuitively said, oh, you can't run with a bad back. It's like, it's been the best thing,

816
00:57:22,260 --> 00:57:27,060
you know, the running and the cycling and being active and being fit and all that kind of stuff

817
00:57:27,060 --> 00:57:31,860
has been the best thing for my back. She pushed and I've loved a lot of taste at 10 years and all

818
00:57:31,860 --> 00:57:37,220
that kind of stuff. So, you know, I focused on what I could do. I couldn't stop my disc from

819
00:57:37,220 --> 00:57:43,220
bulging. If it decided to have a moment, the dishwasher was the snapping point. But I knew

820
00:57:43,220 --> 00:57:47,940
it was going before that. So I knew that my back was very soft and the problem with births is it

821
00:57:47,940 --> 00:57:52,340
makes all your muscles soft in order to assess the process. But at the same time, that means that

822
00:57:52,340 --> 00:57:57,540
you're more at risk of injury. Yeah. It's that I've had problems with my back and it's the most

823
00:57:57,540 --> 00:58:03,620
innocuous things to do. And you just feel that twitching and you're like, oh, I've had sacroiliac

824
00:58:03,620 --> 00:58:09,700
so you can lose your layer and you're like, oh no. But I think a lot of stress goes in your back,

825
00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:15,380
doesn't it? And it's literally the burden that's on you as it takes your weight. So, you're here.

826
00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:20,820
So do you think that if there's difficult days on your trip, how are you going to find your

827
00:58:20,820 --> 00:58:25,700
spark? If you're feeling a bit tired and fatigued or are you not under that much pressure that you

828
00:58:25,700 --> 00:58:30,100
need to keep moving? We're not under that much pressure because we've got a lot of time and we've

829
00:58:30,100 --> 00:58:35,620
deliberately designed a wiggly route so that we've got plenty of ways we can cut it short. So if it

830
00:58:35,620 --> 00:58:39,780
looks like it's going to be torrential rain for a day, we can just sit and read a book and we'll do

831
00:58:39,780 --> 00:58:44,340
something else. So there's no pressure to get anywhere in particular by any particular time.

832
00:58:44,340 --> 00:58:48,180
Got to get back in time for my husband to start work again. But you know, we've got quite a lot

833
00:58:48,180 --> 00:58:53,700
of time to do that so good. I don't think we're going to feel under pressure. We've done a practice

834
00:58:53,700 --> 00:58:58,260
tour and we went to France to do a practice tour in September last year. And we had a day when it

835
00:58:58,260 --> 00:59:03,380
was drizzly but actually we had some really lovely day because it was less traffic. Actually the

836
00:59:03,380 --> 00:59:08,340
views were spectacular because we have no cloud and we were getting wet and our kit wasn't getting

837
00:59:08,340 --> 00:59:14,260
wet because we had all the kit. So it was actually a really lovely day. So I know that not all the wet

838
00:59:14,260 --> 00:59:19,300
days will be that lovely but we know that we can get through it. We've done it before. You can draw

839
00:59:19,300 --> 00:59:24,980
on that. Yeah, we can draw on the good days and we know they won't last forever. In five months

840
00:59:24,980 --> 00:59:29,860
we're expecting a few bad days, probably a few mechanicals but we'll get through them. We'll get

841
00:59:29,860 --> 00:59:35,460
together. Yeah, sounds perfect. Do you think it'll be a once in a lifetime thing this or would you

842
00:59:35,460 --> 00:59:40,420
like to do like Canada or Australia or something? You know, it's a really good point but because

843
00:59:40,420 --> 00:59:44,820
you can't put the tandem on a plane it's really difficult to do it too far away unless you take

844
00:59:44,820 --> 00:59:52,100
the tandem boat over to the States. It was quite a long board. We can't decide whether we come back

845
00:59:52,100 --> 00:59:56,340
and we'll just go that was great. We can do long holidays again or whether we'll go, right,

846
00:59:57,060 --> 01:00:01,220
we can give up work and do that for never. Yeah, cycle around the world sort of thing. So

847
01:00:01,860 --> 01:00:07,060
it's difficult to know. We're open to all options when we come home in September. Still,

848
01:00:07,060 --> 01:00:10,980
you know, what will happen. Yeah, it'll be really interesting to see how you feel. We might have to

849
01:00:10,980 --> 01:00:16,180
do a follow-up interview when you get back in September. Yeah, about your experiences on your

850
01:00:16,180 --> 01:00:23,540
trip. Yeah, that would be good. Right, then moving on to success. So what does success look like for

851
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:28,020
you? So it's really interesting. You should ask me that because somebody asked me on a previous

852
01:00:28,020 --> 01:00:33,700
podcast. I said to me the definition of success is having fun meeting your goals. Yeah, and I'm

853
01:00:33,700 --> 01:00:39,060
not particularly goal driven so I don't have goals for my business. I don't have financial goals.

854
01:00:39,060 --> 01:00:46,180
I weirdly, even though I was very driven, I suppose as a lawyer, I've just been really interested to

855
01:00:46,180 --> 01:00:51,940
go with the flow and see what has come up and projects I never imagined would fall into my lap

856
01:00:51,940 --> 01:00:56,820
have fallen into my lap. So for me, as long as I'm having fun and enjoying my work, then that's

857
01:00:56,820 --> 01:01:02,500
success for me. So, you know, I'm in a privileged position. I don't have to earn the majority of

858
01:01:02,500 --> 01:01:09,460
income coming into our household, but I have done for a few years. So I don't really have those

859
01:01:09,460 --> 01:01:14,980
sort of really clear goals, but I've created a mission earlier this year where my mission for

860
01:01:14,980 --> 01:01:21,780
my life is to have freedom to have fun, to be active and to go on adventures and still be cycling

861
01:01:21,780 --> 01:01:28,660
when I'm 100. Wow, that's a pretty good life ethos. Whether or not I'll still be cycling when I'm 100.

862
01:01:28,660 --> 01:01:35,620
Well, it sounds like you're pretty fit and if you keep doing your long trips, then you never know.

863
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:40,260
It's something to aim for. Yeah. So even if you fall short, at least you've thought about something

864
01:01:40,260 --> 01:01:44,420
you would like to be doing in later life rather than getting to your 50s and going,

865
01:01:44,420 --> 01:01:48,900
best part of my life is over now. Actually, maybe the best part of our lives is still to come.

866
01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:53,460
Yeah. I think that's a great way of looking at it. And I think perhaps people in their maybe

867
01:01:53,460 --> 01:01:58,260
late 20s and 30s think that your life's going to be over when you get hit for the seat.

868
01:01:58,260 --> 01:02:05,860
But actually my life probably did start in the best form it has when I was 40, then even 45.

869
01:02:05,860 --> 01:02:10,180
And as you say, really, hopefully you're actually only halfway through your life.

870
01:02:10,180 --> 01:02:14,500
And as you maintain your health, because it's about the quality of life, isn't it? Not just

871
01:02:14,500 --> 01:02:19,460
the length of your life actually living. So you can still do stuff that you're meant to.

872
01:02:19,460 --> 01:02:24,020
I got a couple of friends and we've been at a little mastermind group for some years.

873
01:02:24,020 --> 01:02:30,100
And one of them kind of started this like this phrase to do with menopausal lady or

874
01:02:30,100 --> 01:02:35,380
middle-aged ladies going, we should be vibrant, confident, mysterious. And I'm really like that.

875
01:02:35,380 --> 01:02:40,660
So we've actually created 50 challenges to do in our 50s that make us feel either vibrant,

876
01:02:40,660 --> 01:02:43,700
confident, or fearless. And it's been really interesting because they've been really

877
01:02:43,700 --> 01:02:49,460
eclectic. Everything from sort of doing a skydive with the red arrows, which we haven't yet done,

878
01:02:49,460 --> 01:02:54,980
but just getting one of, getting us all to eat an lemon or play chubby bunnies or

879
01:02:55,860 --> 01:02:59,780
go to eat goat's glass or learn to crochet. They've been really eclectic. But then things that

880
01:03:00,660 --> 01:03:04,580
pushed us out of our comfort zone some more or things that we've always wanted to do,

881
01:03:04,580 --> 01:03:09,060
but haven't had the courage to do. And because we do them together, it's a really nice atmosphere.

882
01:03:09,060 --> 01:03:09,860
So yeah.

883
01:03:09,860 --> 01:03:12,660
Yeah, it must be wonderful to have a community like that.

884
01:03:12,660 --> 01:03:17,620
Yes, that keeps encouraging you encourage each other. So even if one of is down,

885
01:03:17,620 --> 01:03:20,900
then you'll get picked up by the other. Yeah. And it was interesting because we set the goals

886
01:03:20,900 --> 01:03:26,580
back four years ago when we've kind of gone, to be honest, maybe these aren't as good a stretch

887
01:03:26,580 --> 01:03:32,740
goals as they could be. Maybe we need to think bigger. Because, you know, because the process

888
01:03:32,740 --> 01:03:36,980
of doing them has kind of changed us in some ways, it's been really interesting to see.

889
01:03:38,100 --> 01:03:43,140
But it's really lovely to have other people who are prepared to go, we should do this. So

890
01:03:43,140 --> 01:03:50,340
they're going to meet me in Albania for a weekend of girliness. But they're going to go walking in

891
01:03:50,340 --> 01:03:56,820
Albania, both of whom have never been on a hiking holiday before. They're both very fit. But they've

892
01:03:56,820 --> 01:04:00,020
never thought of going to Albania. They never thought of going on a walking tour. They never

893
01:04:00,020 --> 01:04:04,020
thought of, you know, going with a group of people that they don't know, all that kind of stuff. So,

894
01:04:04,580 --> 01:04:07,620
you know, I like to think that actually the adventure has already inspired people to do

895
01:04:07,620 --> 01:04:13,460
things that they've never done before. Yeah, certainly. So you've got a skydive planned.

896
01:04:13,460 --> 01:04:19,540
Planned but not booked yet. Right, because that's, I keep using the skydive analogy on my podcast

897
01:04:19,540 --> 01:04:25,060
for stand up, but right up until the moment you do it, you don't want to do it. But then you do it

898
01:04:25,060 --> 01:04:28,740
and you're like, well, that's brilliant. Yeah, but I've never actually skydived. And I keep saying,

899
01:04:28,740 --> 01:04:33,700
why do I use this analogy? I've never done it. And I don't think I ever will, to be honest. I

900
01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:40,020
don't know. I don't think I could do that. I don't know, but I find out. Yeah. Tandem,

901
01:04:40,020 --> 01:04:44,260
obviously, would be a tandem, wouldn't it? Yeah. I feel like I would say, well, maybe if I was

902
01:04:44,260 --> 01:04:49,300
an Arab celebrity and, you know, I was strapped to someone and I knew that they were competent.

903
01:04:49,300 --> 01:04:56,580
Yeah. You've got no choice. I'd be an A.O. So, wow, that's really exciting. So has the idea of

904
01:04:56,580 --> 01:05:05,140
success changed from when you were younger? Yeah, I think when I was younger, I was probably trying

905
01:05:05,140 --> 01:05:09,460
to plead with my parents. I was probably doing the good girl thing of, you know, getting the

906
01:05:09,460 --> 01:05:16,020
qualifications, going to university, being a success, getting a proper job, all that kind of

907
01:05:16,020 --> 01:05:22,660
thing. But I'm not sure, I think that success works for them, but I'm not sure that worked for me.

908
01:05:22,660 --> 01:05:28,180
I think being a lawyer, I really enjoyed aspects of it, but I think the mould of lawyering and,

909
01:05:28,180 --> 01:05:34,260
you know, the old fashioned, fairly male, pale orientated firms didn't necessarily

910
01:05:35,220 --> 01:05:41,060
make me feel that I was fooling myself. But I kind of didn't feel unhappy until I'd been through the

911
01:05:41,060 --> 01:05:45,940
redundancy process when I kind of looked at it objectively and go, it's not all I want. Maybe

912
01:05:45,940 --> 01:05:51,220
it's not everything I've cracked up to be. So I think my idea of success when my kids were little

913
01:05:51,220 --> 01:05:56,500
was just for my kids to grow up happy. And I didn't care what they did and, you know, how

914
01:05:56,500 --> 01:06:01,380
successful they were. I remember having a chat to a friend of mine and she goes, what, you really

915
01:06:01,380 --> 01:06:06,100
think that, you know, happiness is a goal? I said, well, you can't be the best at everything. So you

916
01:06:06,100 --> 01:06:12,900
can't say be the best. You can say be your best, but you can't, if you give them goals to be clever

917
01:06:12,900 --> 01:06:18,420
or get to a university or become, you know, a lawyer or whatever, you're setting them a task that

918
01:06:18,420 --> 01:06:24,340
you don't know fits their personality. So I just wanted my kids to grow up happy and, you know,

919
01:06:24,340 --> 01:06:30,260
do feel that we were there in case they wanted to branch out and do something completely different.

920
01:06:30,260 --> 01:06:38,020
And that we didn't want to give them a job of making us proud. Yeah. Because I thought that was

921
01:06:38,020 --> 01:06:44,100
a job that can be damaging. My parents were quite keen on, my mother was a teacher. They were quite

922
01:06:44,100 --> 01:06:49,620
keen on academics. And my brother went into the Navy, got a degree from the Navy. My sister became

923
01:06:49,620 --> 01:06:53,700
a nurse, but because she didn't get a degree, there was almost a feeling that she wasn't quite

924
01:06:53,700 --> 01:06:59,140
as good because she never grew in everyone else did. And I thought, well, shame she's doing amazing

925
01:06:59,140 --> 01:07:03,060
stuff. She was a children's nurse. She was saving children's lives. She wasn't saving anyone's lives.

926
01:07:03,060 --> 01:07:09,300
She did her job. You know, my brother wasn't really saving lives as such. So I didn't like that sort of,

927
01:07:09,300 --> 01:07:14,020
some jobs are better, you know, some children are better than other because of, I just thought,

928
01:07:14,020 --> 01:07:19,140
no, no, they're just them. They just allow them to be them. So I think when, you know, when my kids

929
01:07:19,140 --> 01:07:24,580
were little, my definition of success was just a happy age. Yeah, that was it. Didn't need anything

930
01:07:24,580 --> 01:07:29,140
else. Job was a nice to have. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I needed the intellectual stimulation,

931
01:07:29,140 --> 01:07:33,300
but I wasn't really focused on that as a career and being, you know, the mind be all unendled.

932
01:07:33,300 --> 01:07:38,020
The family came first. Yeah. And why didn't you choose the law? Did you have a burning desire,

933
01:07:38,020 --> 01:07:42,740
because I always about, or this is a safe profession? No. Quite the contrary, actually,

934
01:07:42,740 --> 01:07:46,820
when I was 16, I went to a career evening because I didn't have absolutely what I wanted to do.

935
01:07:46,820 --> 01:07:50,340
And my mother was going, well, maybe you should, you know, go into a profession. You could be like

936
01:07:50,340 --> 01:07:54,020
a lawyer, a doctor or a vet. It's like, mate, I hate this. I did blood so two of those seemed

937
01:07:54,020 --> 01:07:58,820
really unlikely. And I remember going to the law college one and there was this bloke who was

938
01:07:58,820 --> 01:08:03,860
probably a newly qualified lawyer saying how awful the exams were and how hard they were and

939
01:08:03,860 --> 01:08:08,500
everything else. I already hated exams. I was quite good at them, but the first exam would make me

940
01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:14,100
throw up the whole evening before I was really nervous about exams. It's like you really put me

941
01:08:14,100 --> 01:08:19,300
off law. And then I was quite poorly at sixth form. I had Down to the Fever. So I just was doing

942
01:08:20,020 --> 01:08:23,860
months further maths and chemistry. I thought like the pretty much anything I can do with that is

943
01:08:23,860 --> 01:08:28,660
maths degree. So I'd go and do a maths degree. And I was lucky enough to get into Warwick where

944
01:08:28,660 --> 01:08:33,220
the basically you could do half maths, half anything. And I loved maths and I was good at it,

945
01:08:33,220 --> 01:08:37,140
but I couldn't see a future in it. And you could see a maths job that kind of attracted me.

946
01:08:38,260 --> 01:08:42,020
So I did half anything else. So I played with lots of different topics. I was lucky enough to

947
01:08:42,020 --> 01:08:46,260
learn Russian for a couple of years. Don't ask, it's just, I was fascinated by languages. I thought,

948
01:08:46,260 --> 01:08:51,540
hey, this seems like good fun. But I did a law course as part of that and got really interested

949
01:08:51,540 --> 01:08:57,460
in the law and how it works and the logical bit of, you know, working out answers and looking at

950
01:08:57,460 --> 01:09:04,020
why one case with guilty and the other one wasn't and I just got sucked into it. So you've brought

951
01:09:04,020 --> 01:09:09,700
a maths brain really to the law haven't you? Yeah. A real logical sort of, you know, step by step

952
01:09:09,700 --> 01:09:14,580
approach. And I think that's probably why I, you know, ended up creating a really simple contract,

953
01:09:14,580 --> 01:09:19,860
because I knew that maths is all about simplicity. It's all about reducing things to something that

954
01:09:19,860 --> 01:09:25,140
we can understand from world is extremely complicated. And if we can create a nice little

955
01:09:25,140 --> 01:09:30,660
simple model of it, then that helps us to understand it. And I kind of think all of all

956
01:09:30,660 --> 01:09:34,900
the things that I've done over, you know, my past, I've bought it all into this idea of

957
01:09:34,900 --> 01:09:40,260
simplifying and creating things that are really easy to use and good tools for people. Yeah.

958
01:09:40,260 --> 01:09:46,740
Fascinating to hear your route into it. Random. Yeah. I was mindless because I watched LA law.

959
01:09:47,940 --> 01:09:53,540
And then I was sadly disappointed to find out that the English legal system does not resemble

960
01:09:53,540 --> 01:09:59,140
LA law. Not really. Not like that. Yeah. The first day on the bar course, the barrister came in and

961
01:09:59,140 --> 01:10:04,260
said, so why do you want to be a lawyer? And I said, because I want to assert rights for people

962
01:10:04,260 --> 01:10:09,220
who can't assert yourself. And he's like, what? But that's an answer. The only reason you become

963
01:10:09,220 --> 01:10:16,500
a liar is to make money. I'm like, oh, so yeah, whoops, I'm clearly in the wrong place here.

964
01:10:16,500 --> 01:10:20,900
So, but yeah, it's interesting what routes you take into the ethics, isn't it?

965
01:10:20,900 --> 01:10:26,900
Yeah. So wrapping up then, what would young Sarah say if she could see you now and everything that

966
01:10:26,900 --> 01:10:33,140
you've done? I think she'd say you've done good girl. Yeah. And that's probably it. Yeah. And

967
01:10:33,140 --> 01:10:39,300
she probably said, I'm willing to think she's still friends with that thing. Great. Shout out

968
01:10:39,300 --> 01:10:43,460
to the sweet. Perfect. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. Have you got anything

969
01:10:43,460 --> 01:10:47,540
that you'd like to promote? You want to know about your books or any other podcasts that you've

970
01:10:47,540 --> 01:10:52,420
been on? So I've been on lots of podcasts, there's enough talking. I try and keep it short,

971
01:10:52,420 --> 01:10:58,020
but 500 Words doesn't make a great podcast, but yeah, I've got a website, lots of free stuff. So

972
01:10:58,020 --> 01:11:02,340
if people want to find out more about contracting, they can look at some of the checklists, some of

973
01:11:02,340 --> 01:11:07,540
the free stuff on there to help them to understand more. Lots of stuff on my blog too. People might

974
01:11:07,540 --> 01:11:12,660
understand a bit more about all contracts and some books, which are also available on my website.

975
01:11:12,660 --> 01:11:17,700
Perfect. Well, thanks for coming. It's been really interesting. Again, it's someone I've

976
01:11:17,700 --> 01:11:22,660
known you, but I had no idea about your life story. So really interesting to hear all that.

977
01:11:22,660 --> 01:11:44,260
Thank you for your time. Thanks.