Welcome to Milestone Moments, the show where
we explore the journeys that lead to success.
I'm Sheila Slick, your host and founder of Five
Milestones. In every episode, we will bring you
insights from the minds of entrepreneurs, leaders
and experts who will share not just their expertise,
but the milestone moments that have reshaped
their journeys and led to significant achievements.
So if you're looking for motivation, you're in
the right place. Subscribe now and discover the
milestones that mark the path to success. Welcome
to another episode of Milestone Moments in Business
and Leadership. I'm your host, Sheila Slick.
And today, my special guest is Paul Eric Pape.
Paul is a TEDx speaker, author, and a creative
business strategist known as Santa for Nerds.
With over 20 years as a successful creative entrepreneur,
Paul has designed custom collectibles for Disney,
Universal, and Nickelodeon while building his
own thriving design studio. Paul is the creator
of Gamify Business and author of the Creative
Players Handbook to Business. A revolutionary
approach that translates intimidating business
concepts into language that even creative minds
actually understand. Welcome to the show, Paul.
Thanks for having me, Sheila. Looking forward
to this. Thank you. Well, I have a ton of questions
for you. Okay. Sounds good. Let's do it. What
was the moment that you realized that you could
create something completely new? That nobody
else was doing like that turning point that led
you from your starving artist days to what you
do today. Well, as a. As an artist, as an entrepreneur,
and as a person who owns their own business,
I think the one thing that we all run into is
how do we maintain customers? And for me, I get
bored really easily. I think it's just part of
my makeup. And so I don't like doing a repetitive
job. I don't like making the same thing over
and over again. And so what I did is I kind of
harnessed that inability to stay focused on one
thing and turned it into something that worked
for me. So what happened is that. I live by this
rule of bend, don't break. And so when people
come and ask me for something, companies, individuals,
whatever, the answer is never no. The answer
is always yes. And I'll figure it out. And so
instead of being rigid on that, no, I can't do
that. These are the only things that I make.
I say, we'll bend a little bit and figure it
out as we go along. And what that did is it created
a new type of business. I've been told by. many
business consultants and coaches that running
a business that is completely custom for every
single client is the biggest way to ruin a business.
And yet I've been doing it for 20 years. And
I think the secret is, is that you've just got
to make that the product that you sell. So people
aren't necessarily buying individual items from
me, but instead they're buying me and what my
abilities are in creating the thing that they're
after. What were you doing before this? Like,
take me back 20 years. Oh, okay. Well, 20 years
ago, I actually, I was doing theater. I'm a theater
set designer. That's what my training is in the
sets, props, costumes, et cetera. And so I was
doing that. And then it wasn't very lucrative,
not because I couldn't get the work. It was just
that the work doesn't really pay very well here
in the States. I was one of my mentors was like
top of the game, like Broadway designer. And
he's still only making twenty five to five thousand
dollars a show. And that's every six weeks. So
it's not a lot of money. And so he was constantly
moving about. And so I took a look at. that.
And I was like, eh, maybe not for me. And so
then I became a college professor for a little
bit, teaching design. And that lasted about three
years because it was the same thing over and
over again. I don't like to do that, but also
the bureaucracy of teaching is. horrible it's
just it's it's the worst because they don't really
care about the student aspect of it the learning
the teachers do absolutely but the bureaucracy
behind the university did not it was more numbers
game and so it's like how many kids can we get
through here and it just kind of broke me of
that whole thing i'm a lifelong learner love
education so i stopped doing that but in that
transition of stopping being a professor and
then moving into being a full -time artist, that's
kind of where the eureka moment happened. And
that was when a student had asked me to make
him something for his girlfriend and him for
Valentine's Day. This is back in about 2005,
2006, when the Nintendo Wii had just come out.
I don't know if you remember that, but they had
these little avatars, these little versions of
you called me's. And he's like, hey, can you
make me one? And I'm like, yeah, sure. Why not?
And so I did. I charged him like 50 bucks and
I didn't know it, but he had posted it on a social
media site. It was a blog called Super Punch.
And this is before there was Facebook and all
the other social medias that are out there now.
And it went viral. And I started getting requests
from all over the world from people saying I
would like to have. representation of my me,
a tangible version of it. And so I started doing
them on the side. And during that last year at
my university job, I was making about $45 ,000
a year, but the side gig was actually making
more money. It was bringing in more. And so I
asked my wife, I said, would it be okay to quit
this stable income 401k gig and go freelance?
And she said, I'll give you a year. So I'm like,
okay, so quit the job. Started doing that. Within
three or four months, I had a viral idea. We
made $50 ,000 in about two weeks. And she's like,
I think you've got it. And so that was 20 years
ago. That's how I got here. And you haven't looked
back? Oh, I look back all the time, but I don't
go back. We're always looking that way, but we
never go there. So, yes. Well, before we started
recording the podcast, one of the things I told
you that I was really looking forward to as a
business consultant. I understand the frustration
sometimes of creatives when they're trying to
turn that hobby or a side gig into a successful
business. So what do you think is one of the
biggest mistakes that creators make when they're
first trying to turn their art into a business?
I think the biggest, if I had to pick like one
single thing, and obviously there's a myriad
of things that we could go over, but if I had
to pick one single thing is that they started
creating something because they were passionate
about it. And that was the thing that they wanted
to show the world. They wanted to show them this
passion that they had. And then when they go
to start selling it, they forget the passion
and then they start to try and appease every
single customer. Now, I know as a guy who does
custom work, that sounds kind of. like an oxymoron
there to like kind of do the opposite. But that's
what most people do is most creatives that I
know, they try to appease everyone instead of
just following the passion that made them want
to do it in the first place. And I think, and
so with Gamify business, that's literally the
first thing that we do is we find out what your
passion is and then we find out what you do different
with it. And then from there, we build your business
around that. And then we can always go back to
what that passion is. Whenever you're feeling
lost, you're feeling like you don't know what's
going on. You're not making the sales that you
want. You go back to the passion because in the
end, at the end of the day, you either have,
we want fame and fortune, but fame and fortune
are always those mysterious things that are out
there that we're always trying to get. The thing
that we always have and we had from the very
beginning is this passion. And when you don't
have the fame or the fortune, you've got to have
something else that drives you. And so I always
tell them, look to the passion, try to find out
what it is, and then let's stick with that and
see where that takes us. So now let's talk pricing
because here's another struggle that they have.
I love pricing. Yes, and I'm going to hear it
from your creative mindset. When it comes down
to pricing, sometimes they use the wrong framework
entirely. What's the difference between pricing
art and quote -unquote like a magic item, I want
to learn about that, versus the way a different
kind of business would price their products,
which would just be cost of goods sold? That's
right. Well, here's the thing. Artists or creatives,
I like to say creatives because all creatives
are not artists, but all artists are creative.
So like you and your business as a coach are
creative because you have to come up with ideas
on the fly. You have to be creative in your endeavor.
All entrepreneurs, creatives. Artists are creatives,
but they're also artists. So when it comes to
pricing and we price like magic items, we live
in a world of Amazons and Walmart. Anything that
you want, you can go online and you can buy it
for a dollar. Everything is dirt cheap. The thing
is, is that's because it is mass produced. It's
typically produced in a country that does not
pay a fair wage. And then here we are in the
States or in first world countries, and we're
trying to be an artist and make a living at it.
And I hate the starving artist trope. So when
we talk about pricing, you have to get past the
point of wanting to compare yourselves to companies
like Amazon and Walmart. And instead, think of
yourself as a wizard. who creates something that
is completely unique, something very magical,
that automatically ups your price because you
cannot get what I make anywhere else. As a creative,
there's only you. There will only ever be you.
The art, the work that you create, the ideas
that you generate are unique to you. No one in
the past and no one in the future will ever create
the things that you create. And we got to think
of ourselves like that. We are truly... magical
beings who create magic items for sale. And that
comes at a cost. And we don't need to feel bad
for asking for that. Trust me, as a person who's
been doing this for 20 years, I get held up often
with the, well, if I lower the price, then I'll
at least get the sale and I can pay my bills.
But what I found is every time I lower my price,
those are the worst customers, hands down. And
that when I stick to my guns and I stick to my
prices, the customers come. They may not be as
frequent as the low priced ones, but then if
I'm doing it for the low price, I'm doing a lot
more work for the same, for minimal amount of
money. Whereas I just held, stuck my guns. They
do the higher pricing. I would have done less
work for the same amount of money. So you just
have to kind of retrain your brain and retrain
how we think about this. And in the States, it's
really difficult because art is looked down upon.
It took me 15 years to say I was an artist. I
used to call myself a designer, a maker, a fabricator,
all these other terms to kind of work around
it. Because whenever I said, hi, I'm Paul Pape,
I'm an artist, everyone's reaction, everyone
across the board is, oh. And it's like, wow,
that hurts. Or it's, do you want fries with that?
Or how do you like your coffee? Or however they
want to put it. And it's like, no, no, I'm actually
magical. So I'm a wizard. So it's just a lot
easier now if we frame it that way to think of
your pricing. in that point. Now, I have a whole
mathematical equation that we could go into that
tells you how to figure out where to start your
pricing and all that. But we can save that for
another conversation. But the whole point is
that you've got to think of yourself as unique
because you are. And that's how we get out there.
And that's how we keep those prices up there.
So to be clear on who you serve, because now
we've used the word creative. Now we're talking
artists. And I want to make sure that we're speaking
to the right people. Give me some examples of
how do you help them? So definitely I work with
artists and theater practitioners because that's
where my heart is. That's where I come from.
So those are pretty easy to quantify. But I've
also worked with actuaries, people who do finances,
because they're creative in their work. You got
to figure out those numbers. I've worked with
startup companies. I've worked with people who
have been in their business for a really long
time, like CEOs who are noticing that, you know,
the. The machine is not working as well as it
should. I've worked with CEOs who feel that they
have to take on every single aspect of their
job. And as far as like what the thing is that
they're making, it's inconsequential. It's just
really the people who have the spirit to want
to be creative, to want to be an entrepreneur,
to run a business or to own it, because you got
to wear a lot of hats. And that's really where
the creativity comes in. And so as far as like
the people, I mean, I've worked with. teachers
i've worked with students i've worked with bankers
i've worked i mean like honestly anybody you
can think of i've probably had them come across
my my desk i worked with a woman just the other
day who who works on assembly line at harley
davidson you know but what i did is she had a
side side thing that she was trying to get off
the ground that was kind of similar to what the
work she was doing and i was able to help her
by planning out what it is that she was doing
So would it be fair to say that someone who's
looking to transition into entrepreneurship and
they're looking for a creative or their artistic
talents, they would reach out to you and you
help them from idea to launch? Ideation through
creation. That's what we say. And that's exactly
what it is. The whole, the book that I have here,
the creative players handbook to business is
it's a self -led book, or I can coach you through
it, which is actually, I think is better because
I play the game master. So I ask all the right
questions to help lead you through the quest,
which is the adventure of your life. And, uh,
this book here, it starts off from the very beginning
of just asking you those simple questions. What
are you passionate about? Let's build a business
around that. And then we actually create like
a character sheet for you, which allows you,
it's a, it's. which is basically introspection.
Because I don't know if you've noticed this with
entrepreneurs, is that they're flawless. They
don't make any mistakes. Everything is perfect.
And that's what they project. And we all know
that that's false, but that's what they have
to put out there. Because if they show a kink
in the armor, a chink in the armor, sorry, they
show a chink in the armor, what happens is that
they feel like they're going to fail because
it's that putting on appearances. So we create
a character sheet, which just separates you just
far enough away from who you are. It's still
you. It's just not. me, it's my character. And
so you can say, what are the things that I'm
strong at and good at? What are the things that
I'm not so good at? What are my deficiencies?
And it's not a negative to have things that you're
not good at. I know as entrepreneurs and as people
who want to run everything that we have to feel
like we can do everything. The reality is, is
we sure could, but we'll be bad at a lot of it.
So find people who are better at it. But the
only way that you're going to know who's good
at it is if we fill out this character sheet
so we know who they are. It's like a personality
test, but it's a one of through introspection.
So I want you to really think about who you are.
And then from there, you have your employees
or people that you want to work with do the same
sheet. Then we do something called looking for
group. That's my favorite part. And that's why
we're actually in a tavern. This is why this
looks like a bar here, because in role playing
games, which is what this is kind of based around,
when you go looking for a group, you do that
at the tavern because the tavern is where everybody
gets together. And I play the tavern keeper.
I'm just the guy who has the knowledge. I'm not
the star of the show. You are. You're the adventure.
And so what we do is we go looking for group
and we look for people who are not similar to
you, but are actually. have the opposite skill
set as you to help round you out. Because there's
nothing worse than going into battle with five
warriors because you're automatically going to
wipe. What you need is you need a warrior, you
need a wizard, you need a healer, you need all
these different people to help round out your
party to be successful. It's the exact same thing
in business. You need people who are more well
-rounded. And so that's really what this book
does. And so if you are unsure how you want to
get into this, you sit down, you do your character
sheet, really give you that introspection, then
you know who you are and what you're after. Then
you go find the people to help support that.
Then you got the adventure of business ahead
of you. I like that. I feel like I'm in a Disney
kind of setting. And then you said it's a tavern.
I hadn't put two and two together. You just have
a Disney feel all about you from the well, thank
you. That's why I'm Santa. Let's talk about that.
What does that mean? I'm Santa for nerds is the
title. I did not give myself a nickname. You
do not do that in life. People give you nicknames.
And like I said, for years, I didn't know what
to call my business because it's really hard
to put on a business card that you can make anything
that you can think of. And that was one of my
business cards. I also tried a want fulfillment
specialist. It would be wishes, but I'm not a
genie. I tried all these like silly things to
get people to understand that really it's just
ask for what you want and I can make it happen.
And what happened is. probably about 13, 14 years
into my business, I had a woman who was a client
and we were talking one day and she's like, you
really are just like Santa for nerds. She'd make
all this nerdy stuff and like anybody wishes
for something and you're just like, poof, I can
make it happen. And I was like, that is the perfect
way to describe what it is that I do. Because
as a person, you know who Santa is and you know
what a nerd is. And even if you don't understand
what Santa for nerds is, it's enough of information
that people go, I need to know more. And really
that's what, what came about. So now when I introduce
myself and my TEDx talk is actually called Santa
for nerds. And it really goes through the history
of like how I became who I am. And the thing
is, is I don't just make items. What I do is
I make memories tangible. And that is such a
weird thing to, to be able to do and to demonstrate,
but everything that I make, I don't keep. And
so people are like, well, show me all the things
that you've made. I'm like, I can't, I don't
own any of it. It's gone to the thousands of
people and companies around the world. And so.
When we say Santa for nerds, it's a lot easier
for people to be like, oh, OK, so you like you
grant wishes, you make things happen that is
magical. Like, absolutely. That's what I do.
So your TEDx talk, Santa for nerds, goes over
your life history and then a framework. Do you
discuss a particular framework? Yeah, I actually
brought a bunch of props up with me. I had some
I asked for people to bring them back to me so
that I could go up on stage and demonstrate what
some of these are. And what I did is I told the
story. Behind objects that are there because
everything that I create has a story behind it.
There's a life that it's go. It's not just a,
I like that thing because it's cool. So I buy
that tchotchke off the shelf. When people come
to commission me, there's a reason behind it.
Even if it's a company, there's usually a. a
reason that is from the heart behind it. And
so what I did is I went on stage and I explained
a little bit about who I was, explained that
I am Santa for nerds, and then went through the
stories of the people that are these objects
and how the, what I captured was a moment in
time so that when they look upon it, they're
taken back. It's like a magic portal that allows
them to see it. do a lot of custom engagement
ring boxes so like nerdy people like harry potter
star wars uh you name it i've probably worked
in marvel stuff but they take that thing or gaming
is another huge one and if they have a shared
interest in it then i create an object from that
franchise and make it a hidden ring box so the
person who receives it is excited because they
get that thing from that franchise that they
really love but then the magic is hidden inside
and it's always hidden and so then they open
it up and then That moment, especially with an
engagement, that's a fleeting moment in people's
lives. When you're proposed to, typically it's
they get down on the knee, pop open the box,
put the ring on the finger, and that's it. And
there's no record of it unless somebody videoed
it from afar or whatever. But what I do is I
take everything that led up to that moment, the
things that made that relationship as solid as
it, that made you want to take that leap to marriage.
And I consolidate it into a package so that when
they look at it, they go, that was our history.
And then it culminated in this moment. And it
is, like I said, it's a tangible memory that
they can keep forever. Well, I'll make sure to
leave the link in the comments so that we all
watch that TEDx speech. It sounds fascinating.
Thank you. So for someone listening who's been
avoiding the business side of their creativity
because perhaps it feels overwhelming, what would
be one gaming principle that they could apply
today to make it feel less intimidating? We are,
as a species, Like driven by reward. The carrot
and the stick, we've all heard that analogy before.
And nobody wants the stick, but everybody wants
the carrot. The stick is the work, and that's
unfortunately business. The carrot is the thing
that we go towards. When we're on our phones,
our devices, and we're doom scrolling, we get
a dopamine hit. And ironically, we don't get
it from the things that we're watching. We actually
get it from the motion of swiping. And that dopamine
hit is the thing that keeps bringing us back.
What we do with gaming is it's the same thing.
When we're playing a video game, we get a dopamine
hit from getting an achievement. We have completed
a task. I get a dopamine hit. I get a reward.
And we're reward driven. And so what we do with
gaming, especially with Gamify Business here,
is we take all the aspects of business and we
turn them into challenges. And then when you
accomplish the challenge, you get a reward. The
rewards are based on you. You get to choose what
it is. I have found that gold star stickers work.
wonderfully. It doesn't cost you hardly anything,
but people love them. I did an event and we were
doing this type of thing and people were collecting
and they were putting them. And then we went
and did a tour of Target because I love to go
to Target to show creatives how things work.
And they were wearing them with pride. They were
like majors in the army. They were walking around.
It's like, I got eight stars, you know, and it's
that reward because then they know that they've
accomplished something. And that's really the
best way to motivate you as a creative to do
the things that you necessarily don't want to
do, just like you would in a video game. I don't
know how many hours I spend in World of Warcraft
running around picking up mushrooms or killing
boars, you know, where you have to do 30 of them
and run back to the guy and go, I did it. And
he's like, OK, here's the next level thing. Here's
a sword and go off and do it again. And it's
boring, repetitive work. It's called grinding.
We use that exact same term in business. We got
to do the daily grind. That's what it is. But
we don't ever in business give ourselves a reward
except for the paycheck. But that's usually so
far off in the future. It becomes negligent.
We don't think about it. It like leaves our mind.
And so instead, what we do is we give ourselves
short term goals with rewards. And that's what
helps propel us forward. And the reward could
even be a sticker that serves as a reminder that
you accomplished the task. I'm going to go get
some gold stickers. Exactly. You should. So where
can we find you? Where can we buy your book?
Listen to your TEDx. I'll leave that on the link.
Find you online. I am PaulPaperDesigns pretty
much everywhere on social media because I've
been doing this for 20 years. But the business,
Gamify Business, is GamifyBusiness .com. If you
would like to sample the book, get the first
two chapters for free, you can go to GamifyBusiness
.com forward slash podcast. just the word podcast,
and it'll pop up a form, just fill it out, and
you'll get sent the first two chapters of the
book for free so you can get an idea of what
gamifying your life and your business would be
like. And then palpatedesigns .com for all the
rest of it. Well, thank you so much for joining
me today, Paul. You're very welcome. Thanks for
having me, Sheila. And thank you all for tuning
in to another episode of Milestone Moments in
Business and Leadership. Until next time.