Welcome to Milestone Moments, the show where
we explore the journeys that lead to success.
I'm Sheila Slick, your host and founder of Five
Milestones. In every episode, we will bring you
insights from the minds of entrepreneurs, leaders
and experts who will share not just their expertise,
but the milestone moments that have reshaped
their journeys and led to significant achievements.
So if you're looking for motivation, you're in
the right place. Subscribe now and discover the
milestones that mark the path to success. Welcome
to another episode of Milestone Moments in Business
and Leadership. I'm your host, Sheila Slick.
And today, my special guest is John Follis. John.
co -founded one of the most successful ad agencies
on Madison Avenue. He was also a podcast pioneer
with his marketing show back in 2006. And for
his breakthrough public service ad work, he was
honored at the White House. As a thought leader,
he's written for Adweek and has been a speaker
at venues including the World Business Academy,
and Yale Entrepreneur Institute. And here's the
thing, John was also fired four times. And today,
as a sought -after podcast guest, he shares his
knowledge and his career journey with people
from around the world. Welcome to the show, John.
Thank you, Sheila. Happy to be on your show.
Nice to meet you. And nice to meet you. And you
had me at... I got fired four times. So with
today's times when a lot of people are fearing
getting fired or, you know, AI is coming after
my job, I want to start with that focus. Okay.
How do you get fired four times? What was that
journey like? So as you said in the introductory
bio about my career, my career was spent in the
advertising business. 25 years of which, actually
about 35 years in New York City. The first 10
years of my career, I worked for major ad agencies.
Prior to New York, I worked in Chicago for three
years. And when you work at a big ad agency,
it actually doesn't take a lot to get fired.
There's kind of a saying in the ad business,
which is kind of funny, and it goes like this,
that you can't be any good. if you haven't been
fired at least once. And I think that was mainly
directed toward creative people because if a
big agency loses a piece of business, the first
thing they're going to do is cut staff. So it
may have nothing to do with your talent or lack
of talent. They just have to cut overhead. So
you're vulnerable. In my case, two of the four
times I got fired, I was brought in by a guy
that I was supposed to be working with, who only
after three or four weeks of bringing me into
the agency, found a better job and left the agency.
So without that guy at that agency who hired
me, who brought me in, who wanted me to be there,
without him being there, I was very vulnerable
to office politics. I don't know if you've ever
worked for a big corporation, but in any major
corporation, you're going to get a lot of politics.
And then when you talk about New York City and
the advertising business, very, very political.
A lot of big egos. And if you don't have someone
at that company who's covering your back and
wanting you to be successful. there's a good
chance you're going to eventually lose your job.
So that happened to me twice. And then, you know,
two more other times. I have to say this also,
Sheila. My personality did not fit well with
the kind of corporate mentality. I didn't realize
it at the time because it was early on in my
career. But I came from a family of entrepreneurs.
And it was very hard for me to kind of deal with
a lot that I saw going on at these big companies.
I remember a couple of times I had a hard time.
You really have to be careful what you say and
who you say it to. And one of the agencies I
got fired from, I opened my mouth in a meeting
and said something that I should not have said.
And I don't think that helped my future at that
agency. Again, I think my DNA is as an entrepreneur.
I just didn't realize it at the time because
it was very early in my career. And I was just
trying to do my best to do well at these companies
that hired me. But I realized after getting fired
and taking an entrepreneurial path that that
was really my destiny. That was really what I
was meant to be doing. So before I move on to
the next question. What was the biggest life
lesson that perhaps you can share? Someone that
may be fired or may be fearing fire. What was
that life lesson? And I think it's going to be
a good one because I know my listeners can't
see what I'm seeing, but there was a lot of success
behind you because I don't know that you can
fit another trophy or award behind you. Well,
every time you lose your job, you have to look
at it instead of. a big negative, which certainly
no one wants to get fired. You don't want to
have someone tell you that we're not going to
pay you anymore. Good luck. But it's also an
opportunity to reevaluate your career path. And
every time I lost my job, that's what I did.
I had to make a decision. on what my next step
was going to be. And the first time you get,
in my case, the first time I get fired, I just
wanted to get back on the horse, get another
job at another agency as quickly as possible.
But when you start, when this starts becoming
a pattern, as it did in my case, I mean, I didn't
just get fired four times, Sheila. I got fired
four times in eight years. So I got... So if
you do the math, it's like every other job I
got fired from. I had about I actually I had
seven jobs in those eight years. So I got fired
from most of the jobs that I had. And at a certain
point in my case, maybe after the second or third
time, I was forced to try to understand. what
was going on. And I wasn't sure, because it's
hard to have perspective when you're that young,
you're just starting out, you're only working
in the business five or six, seven years. Now
it's easy to see. I just, I didn't do well in
the corporate environment because corporate environments,
one thing, if you've worked in any of them, you'll
realize that there are a lot of people in senior
positions that aren't that smart. and aren't
that talented, but pretty much in every case,
they know how to navigate the office politics
to get to where they are. And that's one of the
things I was beginning to realize, that I was
not good at politics. I didn't really want to
try to focus my energy to try to be good at politics.
I was a creative guy, a writer, and an art director.
That was my skill set. And I didn't want to have
to suddenly switch gears and learn how to be
a good politician so I could move up in a corporate
environment. I just decided that my focus needed
to be to find a company that was more interested
in my creative talent and how I could solve their
marketing and advertising problems for their
clients creatively. So a big shift for me was
when I started shifting my focus from these big
political agencies, these big corporations, and
try to find smaller agencies that just needed
someone to come in on a freelance basis and be
a hired gun and basically work. Sometimes it
was a couple of months. Sometimes it was just
a couple of days. But just to come in to solve
a creative problem. And once I made that decision
and kind of shipped my focus and started getting
freelance gigs at some smaller agencies was when
my career started going in a very positive direction.
It flourished. So that has even led you to receive
or be honored at the White House and at the United
Nations. Can you tell me about that? So as a
result of the success that I started having when
I was working as a hired gun doing freelance,
I worked on one campaign that was an extremely
high -profile, successful campaign in New York.
The dream for any creative person is to be associated
with a campaign that people know about, that
they like, that creates a buzz. So that happened
to me about a year after I started freelancing.
I got involved with a campaign that everyone
was talking about. And that caught the attention
of a business guy who called me out of the blue
because he was looking for a creative guy. This
was a business development guy who had also worked
at big agencies, not had a lot of success, and
was trying to find a creative guy that he could
collaborate with so the two of us could. pitch
business on our own and try to build our own
agency, essentially. So as a result of this very
successful campaign, he called me up. We started
a conversation. We started collaborating. And
very quickly, we started becoming successful
because I was really good at the creative. He
was really good at getting meetings and talking
to clients. combination where we complemented
each other enabled us to almost immediately start
winning business and become successful. Now,
you asked me about getting invited to the White
House. So getting invited to the White House
came out of the agency that he and I eventually
started. What was great about this guy, this
partner, was that if I came up with a great idea
for anything and he was excited about the idea,
he would just try to find a client for the idea.
That's not the way it normally works. Usually
you find a client, you discuss them, you find
out what their, their business and marketing
goals are. And then you, you know, accordingly
you move forward and you show them some ads for
whatever, whatever problem it is they're trying
to solve. In this case, I came up with a child
abuse ad on my own. I was watching TV one night
and I, there was a, documentary on Adolf Hitler.
And during the documentary, Joe mentioned that
Adolf Hitler was abused as a child from his father.
And I thought, wow, that's an interesting fact.
Let me see if I could turn that into an ad for
child abuse prevention. So I came up with an
ad. It featured Hitler in the ad. I showed it
to my partner. We contacted the National Organization
for Child Abuse Prevention. who was working out
a deal with the NBA, the National Basketball
Association, that was going to give them $5 million
worth of their TV media time to run some TV commercials
during the NBA playoffs. A lot of major sports
organizations will team up with some nonprofit
organizations just because they think it's good
PR for them, whether it's stay in school or child
abuse prevention or any cause, if you notice
the NFL. They're always they're always aligning
themselves with these kind of organizations.
So we happen to be at the right time, the right
place. While they had just been given this deal,
five million dollars worth of TV time, and they
needed an agency to do some TV commercials, public
service announcements against child abuse that
were going to be running. During the playoffs,
and this is when Michael Jordan for the Bulls
was going up against Magic Johnson and the Lakers,
early 90s. So that year, 24 million people watched
the NBA playoffs. And I had three commercials
that I came up with that ran during the playoffs.
And about, I don't know, almost immediately after
the commercial started running, because $5 million,
Sheila, and... And the playoffs were maybe three,
four weeks. And we're talking 1991 media dollars.
So that would be probably $10 million. Now you
spend that kind of money in a three or four week
period. Those commercials ran like crazy every
game. So everyone who was watching basketball
was seeing them. And apparently one of the people
that was watching the playoffs that year was
the president of the United States. It was George
Bush. Because about a month after the playoffs
ended, I got a letter from the White House I
thought was a joke. It was not an election year.
It was like June, I think, whenever the playoffs
were over. So they weren't asking me for a campaign
contribution. I thought it was a joke. I opened
it up. It was a very fancy invitation to a White
House reception to be one of a couple of dozen
people from around the United States who... had
contributed their time and talent for a public
service cause. And that's how I got invited to
the White House. And then after that invitation,
about a month after that, the original ad that
I came up with featuring Hitler that the organization
did not want to touch, they didn't want to run
an ad featuring Hitler. We found another organization
in Albany, New York. It was another chapter of
the child abuse organization who was more than
happy to run the ad as a newspaper ad. And the
ad ran. They started getting all kinds of calls,
calls from psychologists, guidance counselors,
everyone who was like really blown away from
this ad associating. Hitler and child abuse because
it was a very, very powerful message against
child abuse prevention. We entered the ad in
award shows and somehow it got on the radar of
the United Nations, who at the time had just
started something they called the United Nations
Public Service Award. I think it was the first
year that they decided to do that. So they were
looking to acknowledge people around the country
who were doing great things that allied with
the mission of the United Nations, which is everyone
get along and peace and a better world, essentially.
And someone at the UN apparently came across
this ad because a month after I got invited to
the White House, I got another letter from the
United Nations telling me that I was one of the
first recipients for this UN Public Service Award.
come to United Nations where you could get your
award. So fortunately, our office was about 20
blocks from the United Nations. So all I needed
to do was get on my bicycle instead of jump on
a plane to go to the United Nations. So I went
to the UN to get my UN award that year. So it
was a pretty big year for me. As an entrepreneur,
I think that my favorite part of the story is
thinking that I don't know that you would have
had those opportunities. Had you not been fired,
if we go back from the beginning, because you
had that liberty, that flexibility, the power
to make your own decisions and think outside
of the box, right? Because as you're saying all
this, I'm like, these awards over an ad about
Hitler and child abuse. It makes me want to say,
well, what was the ad? I want to learn more because
it just sounds so, you know. Provocative, provocative.
And strange, like my mind can't put the pieces
together. So I guess that's how you create impact
when you're in advertising. Well, the tagline
I came up with is which I started with. The message
I wanted to point out when I used Hitler is that
if you look at a lot of child abuse messages,
it always shows like a little kid with a bruise
on their face sitting in the corner with a Raggedy
Ann doll who, you know, was abused by some adult.
Right. The idea behind this Hitler ad was this
is an issue that affects all of us, whether or
not you're you know, you may be the best parent
in the world. Right. Or maybe you don't even
have kids. But because in Hitler's case, he was
an abused child that did not get the help that
he needed. And all of his emotional, psychological
issues related to the abuse that he had growing
up. ended up turning into the monster that he
became. And this is why this is an issue that
everyone needs to reckon with. Because it wasn't
just Hitler. If you look at the history of a
lot of famous criminals and people like Hitler,
Charles Manson, for example. Do you know who
Charles Manson is? Of course. Okay, okay. Well,
some of the people listening who are under 40
may not know. Charles Mann is one of the most
famous murderers in U .S. history. He was abused
as a kid. And, you know, pretty much if you look
at any major criminal and are able to find out
about their history, not in every case, but in
many cases, they were abused as kids. So that
was the message. And the tagline was, child abuse,
it hurts all of us, was the tagline. So when
I featured showed this ad, I featured Hitler,
Charles Manson, Lee Harvey Oswald, who shot who
assassinated John Kennedy, who was very famous
for people who are baby boomers, at least very
famous. They know what he looks like. And Mussolini
also. Again, I'm dating myself. But, you know,
famous murderers and insane people, basically.
And the headline was some abused children grow
up to become famous. That was, that was the headline,
which is, which is something that my, you know,
listen, you could have the great headline. If
you don't get people to read the copy and the
ad, it's not going to, it's not going to work.
So my, the reason I wanted to have that headline
to kind of raise eyebrows is because I wanted
them to read the copy. And when you say some
abused. children grow up to become famous and
you show Hitler and Mussolini, you want to understand
what the copy is. And the copy just said, the
fact of the matter is that 80 % of criminals
in our prisons were abused as kids. So with four
people pictured in this ad. Doesn't mean that
every abused kid turns into a criminal, but 80
% of the people in prison. or abused as kids.
So this is a problem that affects all of us.
And here's an 800 number if you'd like to get
more information or if you know any people or
kids that are being abused, you know, please
call this number. So that was the gist of the
ad. Wow. So now let's fast forward to today.
What are you focusing on? We had mentioned that
you're sharing knowledge and you're in podcasts.
Where's your passion at today? Well, people can't
see me, but I'm old. So I'm 71. So it was probably,
I don't know, seven or eight years ago that I
looked at my net worth and my financial situation,
realized that if I didn't want to, I didn't need
to continue. hustling for clients and hustling
for work, I could pretty much focus on anything
I wanted to do. And one of the things I enjoy
doing is this. I love giving back. I love sharing
my stories and hopefully some wisdom that I've
gained in the years that I've been working and
working as an entrepreneur. So I've been, at
this point, Sheila, close to 100 podcasts I've
done in the past several years. As we talked
about earlier, I was also a volunteer for SCORE,
the organization for retired executives. So now
I like continue. I mean, basically, this is what
I've done throughout my career is try to find
time to work for public service organizations
and causes that I'm passionate about. Just now
that I have the time, I could devote a lot more
time to it than I was able to when I was working
full time. So that's. That's one of the things
I enjoy doing now. Leaving your legacy? Yeah,
for sure. So what do you want to be remembered
for? Well, it would be nice to be remembered
for some of what we're talking about now, some
of the work that I've done for these very worthy
organizations. I mean, I just mentioned child
abuse, but over the course of my career, I probably
worked on... three dozen, was involved with three
dozen various causes and nonprofit organizations.
Child abuse just happened to be one of them.
So I think that's a pretty good legacy to leave.
You know, as well as these podcasts that I'm
now sharing, and as I mentioned, just sharing
my wisdom and knowledge about marketing. I mean,
you're asking me a lot of questions about my
career, but a lot of the podcasts I've been on
focus specifically on marketing and how business
owners can do a better job of marketing their
business. So that's just another legacy I've
left, helping business owners be successful.
So I'm definitely sticking out as one of those
podcasts you're going to remember because I asked
you different questions. And I absolutely loved
your story. You inspired me from the moment that
you said, I got fired four times and it could
have been 30 years ago because I love these stories
that have such meaning at the end and they provide
hope. And so you're providing hope to anyone
that perhaps today. isn't happy in their career
or perhaps is fearing getting fired or, you know,
their job is going to get taken away by AI. And
as a SCORE mentor as well, I've always looked
for the opportunity because that really is the
entrepreneurial mindset. If you want to start
something, you need a need, you got to solve
a problem. And so what a better way, you know,
to find a solution or a problem than... when
you're facing it yourself so I think that by
switching that mindset you can end up living
a much brighter life making a bigger impact in
the world when you have that freedom like you
did your creativity just unleashed and look at
where you're at and if we had more time we'd
go over each and every one of the awards maybe
I'll even share if you want a piece of the video
because You've obviously impacted a lot of organizations
and had a lot of impressive campaigns throughout
your career, perhaps even today. Well, thank
you, Jill. I appreciate that. But you're right.
I mean, I think that's, you know, at the time,
it wasn't really something I wanted to talk a
lot about, about getting fired. That's not a
good way to brand yourself, you know, when you're
still... You know, it got to the point, Sheila,
where when I was meeting with recruiters to try
to get a new job, you have to be honest with
them. And that's not a great selling point to
say that you've been fired multiple times. It
got to the point where recruiters weren't even
interested in talking to me. You know, I had
to figure things out on my own. that I don't
have to worry about it. That's, I think, one
of the reasons I get on all these podcasts, because
not just the fact that I got fired four times,
but the fact that it was only after, as you just
said, only after getting fired all those times
that all the success happened to me in my career,
getting invited, honored to the White House and
the UN and starting an ad agency that became
one of the most award -winning agencies in the
country. All of that happened after getting fired
that fourth time. So now that's a great hook
to get me on some podcasts and talk about it.
It does. And it gives, you know, other generations
like Gen Z that's growing up in a whole different
age when we're talking about TV ads. I don't
even know that they watch TV today, right? So
I love so many different aspects of the story,
but I absolutely love that. And it also makes
you different. And I think with maturity, right?
I'm not a spring chicken. You end up being more
comfortable with yourself and, you know, being
different and standing out. When we were talking
before, I said, yeah, no, I did program. A lot
of people look at me like, well, huh? And at
first I took it the wrong way. Like, I don't
look like a programmer. You know, I'm a mom.
I've got these three kids. But then I ended up
embracing. That that difference helped me stand
out. And so I love your story. You have me. That
was the best talk. Let me just say one last thing,
Sheila, because I think this is really an important
thing for your listeners to know about. Once
I went on my, you know, even when I was in my
agency with a business partner, even though we
were entrepreneurs. I couldn't do whatever I
wanted. I still had a partner that I had to work
with. And not all the time. We didn't agree on
a lot of things. I couldn't kind of go in whatever
direction I wanted. For example, again, I'm dating
myself. I was very interested in the Internet.
He wasn't. And so we only worked together for
about three and a half, four years. Eventually,
I. came to the decision that he was holding me
back. And it was a hard decision because we were
very successful and I didn't have any false illusions
that I could continue to be successful without
someone who was such a great new business guy.
But I had to take a chance because things weren't
working out and I went on my own. But this was
right at the time where the internet was becoming
a thing. And my first website went up in late
95. And I didn't really, I wasn't a technology
guy. But once my website went up, I had some
coders code the thing. And this is before there
were templates and WordPress and Wix and all
that stuff. Everything was, you know, the old
days, custom coded. You can appreciate that.
And so once the website went up, then I realized,
well, if I want to change anything on the website,
I've got to learn how to go in the back end of
this website. And figure out, understand coding
and know where I need to go if I want to change
a couple of sentences or change a word here and
there. So I started learning how to code in the
mid 90s or late 96, 97, just so I could continue
modifying my website moving forward. So and then
when podcasting became a thing in 2005, I was
intrigued with that. And I was so intrigued that
I started learning about podcasting. And by February
2006, I had my own podcast. It was called The
Marketing Show. A lot of people who went through
COVID just discovered what podcasting was just
not that long ago. Podcasting has been around
for 20 years. And the point I'm trying to make
is that in order to be successful, you have to
continue pursuing your curiosity, continue looking
at trends. Right now, if I was active, I would
be all over AI. I wouldn't ignore it. I would
know everything about it because that's the future.
It's not going away. And I think it's really
important. I don't think I would have continued
to be. So after I walked away from my partnership,
I was on my own for about 25 years, basically
without a business partner, doing my own thing.
And again, I didn't know I could be successful
because I don't have a business background. But
one of the things that enabled me to continue
to be successful is what I'm talking about now,
to continue to be an early adapter to some of
the trends that you can see coming down the road
and know everything about it. If you don't, your
competitors will. And that's where you'll lose
out to your competitors because they're engaged
in it earlier than you are. So you've got to
really be able to be aware of the coming trends
and know everything about them. So you can brand
yourself as an expert in all the things that
are coming down the road. So you know that. And
I think it's an important message for all of
your listeners to hear that you have to constantly
evolve your business model, as I did. Well, thank
you so much for joining me today. Thank you,
Sheila. My pleasure. Great. Good listen. Good
luck with your podcast. Thank you all for tuning
in to another episode of Milestone Moments in
Business and Leadership. I will leave all of
John's contact information so that you can. Follow
his journey in the show notes. Until next time.