WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.080 Welcome to Milestone Moments, the show where 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.960 we explore the journeys that lead to success. 00:00:06.620 --> 00:00:10.199 I'm Sheila Slick, your host and founder of Five 00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:13.859 Milestones. In every episode, we will bring you 00:00:13.859 --> 00:00:17.100 insights from the minds of entrepreneurs, leaders 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:20.820 and experts who will share not just their expertise, 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:24.120 but the milestone moments that have reshaped 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.059 their journeys and led to significant achievements. 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:30.359 So if you're looking for motivation, you're in 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.560 the right place. Subscribe now and discover the 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:40.520 milestones that mark the path to success. Welcome 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:43.880 to another episode of Milestone Moments in Business 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:46.979 and Leadership. I'm your host, Sheila Slick. 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:51.840 And today, my special guest is John Follis. John. 00:00:52.270 --> 00:00:55.469 co -founded one of the most successful ad agencies 00:00:55.469 --> 00:01:00.450 on Madison Avenue. He was also a podcast pioneer 00:01:00.450 --> 00:01:06.709 with his marketing show back in 2006. And for 00:01:06.709 --> 00:01:10.230 his breakthrough public service ad work, he was 00:01:10.230 --> 00:01:13.269 honored at the White House. As a thought leader, 00:01:13.489 --> 00:01:17.370 he's written for Adweek and has been a speaker 00:01:17.370 --> 00:01:20.129 at venues including the World Business Academy, 00:01:20.890 --> 00:01:25.810 and Yale Entrepreneur Institute. And here's the 00:01:25.810 --> 00:01:31.310 thing, John was also fired four times. And today, 00:01:31.409 --> 00:01:34.609 as a sought -after podcast guest, he shares his 00:01:34.609 --> 00:01:38.150 knowledge and his career journey with people 00:01:38.150 --> 00:01:41.310 from around the world. Welcome to the show, John. 00:01:41.609 --> 00:01:43.950 Thank you, Sheila. Happy to be on your show. 00:01:44.170 --> 00:01:48.209 Nice to meet you. And nice to meet you. And you 00:01:48.209 --> 00:01:52.010 had me at... I got fired four times. So with 00:01:52.010 --> 00:01:54.549 today's times when a lot of people are fearing 00:01:54.549 --> 00:01:57.590 getting fired or, you know, AI is coming after 00:01:57.590 --> 00:02:01.530 my job, I want to start with that focus. Okay. 00:02:01.569 --> 00:02:06.950 How do you get fired four times? What was that 00:02:06.950 --> 00:02:12.210 journey like? So as you said in the introductory 00:02:12.210 --> 00:02:17.469 bio about my career, my career was spent in the 00:02:17.469 --> 00:02:21.849 advertising business. 25 years of which, actually 00:02:21.849 --> 00:02:26.370 about 35 years in New York City. The first 10 00:02:26.370 --> 00:02:29.310 years of my career, I worked for major ad agencies. 00:02:30.030 --> 00:02:33.289 Prior to New York, I worked in Chicago for three 00:02:33.289 --> 00:02:37.169 years. And when you work at a big ad agency, 00:02:37.349 --> 00:02:39.990 it actually doesn't take a lot to get fired. 00:02:40.770 --> 00:02:43.430 There's kind of a saying in the ad business, 00:02:43.650 --> 00:02:47.210 which is kind of funny, and it goes like this, 00:02:47.349 --> 00:02:49.810 that you can't be any good. if you haven't been 00:02:49.810 --> 00:02:53.530 fired at least once. And I think that was mainly 00:02:53.530 --> 00:02:59.310 directed toward creative people because if a 00:02:59.310 --> 00:03:02.370 big agency loses a piece of business, the first 00:03:02.370 --> 00:03:04.650 thing they're going to do is cut staff. So it 00:03:04.650 --> 00:03:07.669 may have nothing to do with your talent or lack 00:03:07.669 --> 00:03:10.610 of talent. They just have to cut overhead. So 00:03:10.610 --> 00:03:17.449 you're vulnerable. In my case, two of the four 00:03:17.449 --> 00:03:20.400 times I got fired, I was brought in by a guy 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:24.460 that I was supposed to be working with, who only 00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:27.259 after three or four weeks of bringing me into 00:03:27.259 --> 00:03:30.560 the agency, found a better job and left the agency. 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:35.240 So without that guy at that agency who hired 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:37.800 me, who brought me in, who wanted me to be there, 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:43.039 without him being there, I was very vulnerable 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.669 to office politics. I don't know if you've ever 00:03:46.669 --> 00:03:51.169 worked for a big corporation, but in any major 00:03:51.169 --> 00:03:55.830 corporation, you're going to get a lot of politics. 00:03:55.949 --> 00:03:59.849 And then when you talk about New York City and 00:03:59.849 --> 00:04:03.229 the advertising business, very, very political. 00:04:03.370 --> 00:04:07.289 A lot of big egos. And if you don't have someone 00:04:07.289 --> 00:04:12.110 at that company who's covering your back and 00:04:12.110 --> 00:04:16.170 wanting you to be successful. there's a good 00:04:16.170 --> 00:04:18.189 chance you're going to eventually lose your job. 00:04:18.769 --> 00:04:21.910 So that happened to me twice. And then, you know, 00:04:21.930 --> 00:04:27.449 two more other times. I have to say this also, 00:04:27.589 --> 00:04:32.990 Sheila. My personality did not fit well with 00:04:32.990 --> 00:04:37.050 the kind of corporate mentality. I didn't realize 00:04:37.050 --> 00:04:39.110 it at the time because it was early on in my 00:04:39.110 --> 00:04:42.850 career. But I came from a family of entrepreneurs. 00:04:44.009 --> 00:04:49.569 And it was very hard for me to kind of deal with 00:04:49.569 --> 00:04:52.430 a lot that I saw going on at these big companies. 00:04:53.370 --> 00:04:56.829 I remember a couple of times I had a hard time. 00:04:56.930 --> 00:04:59.250 You really have to be careful what you say and 00:04:59.250 --> 00:05:02.649 who you say it to. And one of the agencies I 00:05:02.649 --> 00:05:06.250 got fired from, I opened my mouth in a meeting 00:05:06.250 --> 00:05:08.250 and said something that I should not have said. 00:05:08.410 --> 00:05:12.490 And I don't think that helped my future at that 00:05:12.490 --> 00:05:18.029 agency. Again, I think my DNA is as an entrepreneur. 00:05:18.189 --> 00:05:20.790 I just didn't realize it at the time because 00:05:20.790 --> 00:05:23.529 it was very early in my career. And I was just 00:05:23.529 --> 00:05:26.329 trying to do my best to do well at these companies 00:05:26.329 --> 00:05:30.389 that hired me. But I realized after getting fired 00:05:30.389 --> 00:05:32.629 and taking an entrepreneurial path that that 00:05:32.629 --> 00:05:36.610 was really my destiny. That was really what I 00:05:36.610 --> 00:05:41.569 was meant to be doing. So before I move on to 00:05:41.569 --> 00:05:45.730 the next question. What was the biggest life 00:05:45.730 --> 00:05:50.790 lesson that perhaps you can share? Someone that 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:54.269 may be fired or may be fearing fire. What was 00:05:54.269 --> 00:05:55.870 that life lesson? And I think it's going to be 00:05:55.870 --> 00:05:58.829 a good one because I know my listeners can't 00:05:58.829 --> 00:06:01.350 see what I'm seeing, but there was a lot of success 00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:03.589 behind you because I don't know that you can 00:06:03.589 --> 00:06:06.850 fit another trophy or award behind you. Well, 00:06:06.990 --> 00:06:10.250 every time you lose your job, you have to look 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:14.430 at it instead of. a big negative, which certainly 00:06:14.430 --> 00:06:18.370 no one wants to get fired. You don't want to 00:06:18.370 --> 00:06:21.129 have someone tell you that we're not going to 00:06:21.129 --> 00:06:25.870 pay you anymore. Good luck. But it's also an 00:06:25.870 --> 00:06:31.509 opportunity to reevaluate your career path. And 00:06:31.509 --> 00:06:36.970 every time I lost my job, that's what I did. 00:06:37.069 --> 00:06:41.019 I had to make a decision. on what my next step 00:06:41.019 --> 00:06:45.439 was going to be. And the first time you get, 00:06:45.500 --> 00:06:47.420 in my case, the first time I get fired, I just 00:06:47.420 --> 00:06:50.019 wanted to get back on the horse, get another 00:06:50.019 --> 00:06:52.579 job at another agency as quickly as possible. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:56.259 But when you start, when this starts becoming 00:06:56.259 --> 00:07:00.100 a pattern, as it did in my case, I mean, I didn't 00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:02.579 just get fired four times, Sheila. I got fired 00:07:02.579 --> 00:07:07.709 four times in eight years. So I got... So if 00:07:07.709 --> 00:07:09.889 you do the math, it's like every other job I 00:07:09.889 --> 00:07:13.790 got fired from. I had about I actually I had 00:07:13.790 --> 00:07:16.569 seven jobs in those eight years. So I got fired 00:07:16.569 --> 00:07:21.170 from most of the jobs that I had. And at a certain 00:07:21.170 --> 00:07:23.970 point in my case, maybe after the second or third 00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:34.069 time, I was forced to try to understand. what 00:07:34.069 --> 00:07:38.370 was going on. And I wasn't sure, because it's 00:07:38.370 --> 00:07:40.209 hard to have perspective when you're that young, 00:07:40.329 --> 00:07:41.870 you're just starting out, you're only working 00:07:41.870 --> 00:07:45.230 in the business five or six, seven years. Now 00:07:45.230 --> 00:07:47.910 it's easy to see. I just, I didn't do well in 00:07:47.910 --> 00:07:50.310 the corporate environment because corporate environments, 00:07:50.550 --> 00:07:54.209 one thing, if you've worked in any of them, you'll 00:07:54.209 --> 00:07:57.589 realize that there are a lot of people in senior 00:07:57.589 --> 00:08:02.740 positions that aren't that smart. and aren't 00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:06.240 that talented, but pretty much in every case, 00:08:06.379 --> 00:08:09.699 they know how to navigate the office politics 00:08:09.699 --> 00:08:13.300 to get to where they are. And that's one of the 00:08:13.300 --> 00:08:21.199 things I was beginning to realize, that I was 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:24.399 not good at politics. I didn't really want to 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:27.279 try to focus my energy to try to be good at politics. 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.060 I was a creative guy, a writer, and an art director. 00:08:30.810 --> 00:08:35.629 That was my skill set. And I didn't want to have 00:08:35.629 --> 00:08:37.990 to suddenly switch gears and learn how to be 00:08:37.990 --> 00:08:41.289 a good politician so I could move up in a corporate 00:08:41.289 --> 00:08:45.269 environment. I just decided that my focus needed 00:08:45.269 --> 00:08:51.289 to be to find a company that was more interested 00:08:51.289 --> 00:08:55.690 in my creative talent and how I could solve their 00:08:55.690 --> 00:08:58.690 marketing and advertising problems for their 00:08:58.690 --> 00:09:05.700 clients creatively. So a big shift for me was 00:09:05.700 --> 00:09:08.220 when I started shifting my focus from these big 00:09:08.220 --> 00:09:13.419 political agencies, these big corporations, and 00:09:13.419 --> 00:09:17.019 try to find smaller agencies that just needed 00:09:17.019 --> 00:09:21.179 someone to come in on a freelance basis and be 00:09:21.179 --> 00:09:24.580 a hired gun and basically work. Sometimes it 00:09:24.580 --> 00:09:27.139 was a couple of months. Sometimes it was just 00:09:27.139 --> 00:09:30.519 a couple of days. But just to come in to solve 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:34.600 a creative problem. And once I made that decision 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:37.139 and kind of shipped my focus and started getting 00:09:37.139 --> 00:09:40.039 freelance gigs at some smaller agencies was when 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:44.820 my career started going in a very positive direction. 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:50.600 It flourished. So that has even led you to receive 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:55.500 or be honored at the White House and at the United 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:59.590 Nations. Can you tell me about that? So as a 00:09:59.590 --> 00:10:03.049 result of the success that I started having when 00:10:03.049 --> 00:10:06.669 I was working as a hired gun doing freelance, 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:11.070 I worked on one campaign that was an extremely 00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:15.029 high -profile, successful campaign in New York. 00:10:15.129 --> 00:10:19.909 The dream for any creative person is to be associated 00:10:19.909 --> 00:10:24.970 with a campaign that people know about, that 00:10:24.970 --> 00:10:29.970 they like, that creates a buzz. So that happened 00:10:29.970 --> 00:10:32.710 to me about a year after I started freelancing. 00:10:32.809 --> 00:10:34.549 I got involved with a campaign that everyone 00:10:34.549 --> 00:10:37.269 was talking about. And that caught the attention 00:10:37.269 --> 00:10:41.230 of a business guy who called me out of the blue 00:10:41.230 --> 00:10:44.029 because he was looking for a creative guy. This 00:10:44.029 --> 00:10:48.070 was a business development guy who had also worked 00:10:48.070 --> 00:10:51.210 at big agencies, not had a lot of success, and 00:10:51.210 --> 00:10:54.250 was trying to find a creative guy that he could 00:10:54.250 --> 00:10:57.220 collaborate with so the two of us could. pitch 00:10:57.220 --> 00:11:00.019 business on our own and try to build our own 00:11:00.019 --> 00:11:04.759 agency, essentially. So as a result of this very 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.440 successful campaign, he called me up. We started 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:10.500 a conversation. We started collaborating. And 00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:13.500 very quickly, we started becoming successful 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:17.340 because I was really good at the creative. He 00:11:17.340 --> 00:11:19.360 was really good at getting meetings and talking 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:23.779 to clients. combination where we complemented 00:11:23.779 --> 00:11:26.860 each other enabled us to almost immediately start 00:11:26.860 --> 00:11:30.460 winning business and become successful. Now, 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:32.580 you asked me about getting invited to the White 00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:34.419 House. So getting invited to the White House 00:11:34.419 --> 00:11:38.580 came out of the agency that he and I eventually 00:11:38.580 --> 00:11:42.500 started. What was great about this guy, this 00:11:42.500 --> 00:11:46.399 partner, was that if I came up with a great idea 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.379 for anything and he was excited about the idea, 00:11:51.299 --> 00:11:54.980 he would just try to find a client for the idea. 00:11:55.059 --> 00:11:57.080 That's not the way it normally works. Usually 00:11:57.080 --> 00:11:59.200 you find a client, you discuss them, you find 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:01.600 out what their, their business and marketing 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.220 goals are. And then you, you know, accordingly 00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:08.059 you move forward and you show them some ads for 00:12:08.059 --> 00:12:11.419 whatever, whatever problem it is they're trying 00:12:11.419 --> 00:12:13.500 to solve. In this case, I came up with a child 00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:16.179 abuse ad on my own. I was watching TV one night 00:12:16.179 --> 00:12:20.429 and I, there was a, documentary on Adolf Hitler. 00:12:20.629 --> 00:12:23.909 And during the documentary, Joe mentioned that 00:12:23.909 --> 00:12:27.870 Adolf Hitler was abused as a child from his father. 00:12:27.970 --> 00:12:31.029 And I thought, wow, that's an interesting fact. 00:12:31.389 --> 00:12:34.429 Let me see if I could turn that into an ad for 00:12:34.429 --> 00:12:37.769 child abuse prevention. So I came up with an 00:12:37.769 --> 00:12:39.769 ad. It featured Hitler in the ad. I showed it 00:12:39.769 --> 00:12:44.169 to my partner. We contacted the National Organization 00:12:44.169 --> 00:12:49.029 for Child Abuse Prevention. who was working out 00:12:49.029 --> 00:12:51.950 a deal with the NBA, the National Basketball 00:12:51.950 --> 00:12:55.549 Association, that was going to give them $5 million 00:12:55.549 --> 00:13:00.009 worth of their TV media time to run some TV commercials 00:13:00.009 --> 00:13:03.490 during the NBA playoffs. A lot of major sports 00:13:03.490 --> 00:13:06.490 organizations will team up with some nonprofit 00:13:06.490 --> 00:13:08.870 organizations just because they think it's good 00:13:08.870 --> 00:13:12.009 PR for them, whether it's stay in school or child 00:13:12.009 --> 00:13:14.769 abuse prevention or any cause, if you notice 00:13:14.769 --> 00:13:19.090 the NFL. They're always they're always aligning 00:13:19.090 --> 00:13:20.509 themselves with these kind of organizations. 00:13:20.610 --> 00:13:24.769 So we happen to be at the right time, the right 00:13:24.769 --> 00:13:28.090 place. While they had just been given this deal, 00:13:28.330 --> 00:13:31.429 five million dollars worth of TV time, and they 00:13:31.429 --> 00:13:35.450 needed an agency to do some TV commercials, public 00:13:35.450 --> 00:13:37.509 service announcements against child abuse that 00:13:37.509 --> 00:13:39.480 were going to be running. During the playoffs, 00:13:39.620 --> 00:13:41.700 and this is when Michael Jordan for the Bulls 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:45.080 was going up against Magic Johnson and the Lakers, 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:52.639 early 90s. So that year, 24 million people watched 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.120 the NBA playoffs. And I had three commercials 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:59.340 that I came up with that ran during the playoffs. 00:13:59.379 --> 00:14:03.299 And about, I don't know, almost immediately after 00:14:03.299 --> 00:14:05.299 the commercial started running, because $5 million, 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.649 Sheila, and... And the playoffs were maybe three, 00:14:09.730 --> 00:14:14.230 four weeks. And we're talking 1991 media dollars. 00:14:14.309 --> 00:14:16.730 So that would be probably $10 million. Now you 00:14:16.730 --> 00:14:20.750 spend that kind of money in a three or four week 00:14:20.750 --> 00:14:23.750 period. Those commercials ran like crazy every 00:14:23.750 --> 00:14:27.929 game. So everyone who was watching basketball 00:14:27.929 --> 00:14:31.049 was seeing them. And apparently one of the people 00:14:31.049 --> 00:14:33.210 that was watching the playoffs that year was 00:14:33.210 --> 00:14:34.950 the president of the United States. It was George 00:14:34.950 --> 00:14:39.360 Bush. Because about a month after the playoffs 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.519 ended, I got a letter from the White House I 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.559 thought was a joke. It was not an election year. 00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:48.220 It was like June, I think, whenever the playoffs 00:14:48.220 --> 00:14:52.039 were over. So they weren't asking me for a campaign 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:55.399 contribution. I thought it was a joke. I opened 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:59.620 it up. It was a very fancy invitation to a White 00:14:59.620 --> 00:15:02.740 House reception to be one of a couple of dozen 00:15:02.740 --> 00:15:05.700 people from around the United States who... had 00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:10.240 contributed their time and talent for a public 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.679 service cause. And that's how I got invited to 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:17.539 the White House. And then after that invitation, 00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:22.159 about a month after that, the original ad that 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:25.559 I came up with featuring Hitler that the organization 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:27.919 did not want to touch, they didn't want to run 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:31.009 an ad featuring Hitler. We found another organization 00:15:31.009 --> 00:15:33.929 in Albany, New York. It was another chapter of 00:15:33.929 --> 00:15:38.090 the child abuse organization who was more than 00:15:38.090 --> 00:15:43.009 happy to run the ad as a newspaper ad. And the 00:15:43.009 --> 00:15:46.490 ad ran. They started getting all kinds of calls, 00:15:46.570 --> 00:15:51.570 calls from psychologists, guidance counselors, 00:15:51.669 --> 00:15:54.230 everyone who was like really blown away from 00:15:54.230 --> 00:15:57.470 this ad associating. Hitler and child abuse because 00:15:57.470 --> 00:16:00.330 it was a very, very powerful message against 00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:03.750 child abuse prevention. We entered the ad in 00:16:03.750 --> 00:16:07.730 award shows and somehow it got on the radar of 00:16:07.730 --> 00:16:11.470 the United Nations, who at the time had just 00:16:11.470 --> 00:16:14.570 started something they called the United Nations 00:16:14.570 --> 00:16:16.610 Public Service Award. I think it was the first 00:16:16.610 --> 00:16:19.610 year that they decided to do that. So they were 00:16:19.610 --> 00:16:23.830 looking to acknowledge people around the country 00:16:23.830 --> 00:16:26.940 who were doing great things that allied with 00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:30.440 the mission of the United Nations, which is everyone 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.759 get along and peace and a better world, essentially. 00:16:34.139 --> 00:16:37.159 And someone at the UN apparently came across 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:42.879 this ad because a month after I got invited to 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:44.720 the White House, I got another letter from the 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.360 United Nations telling me that I was one of the 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:50.720 first recipients for this UN Public Service Award. 00:16:53.019 --> 00:16:55.159 come to United Nations where you could get your 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:59.460 award. So fortunately, our office was about 20 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:01.679 blocks from the United Nations. So all I needed 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.779 to do was get on my bicycle instead of jump on 00:17:04.779 --> 00:17:07.359 a plane to go to the United Nations. So I went 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:09.700 to the UN to get my UN award that year. So it 00:17:09.700 --> 00:17:14.059 was a pretty big year for me. As an entrepreneur, 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.140 I think that my favorite part of the story is 00:17:18.140 --> 00:17:20.359 thinking that I don't know that you would have 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:23.759 had those opportunities. Had you not been fired, 00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:27.000 if we go back from the beginning, because you 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:31.180 had that liberty, that flexibility, the power 00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:33.319 to make your own decisions and think outside 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:35.680 of the box, right? Because as you're saying all 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:39.980 this, I'm like, these awards over an ad about 00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:44.180 Hitler and child abuse. It makes me want to say, 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.380 well, what was the ad? I want to learn more because 00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:49.839 it just sounds so, you know. Provocative, provocative. 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:53.539 And strange, like my mind can't put the pieces 00:17:53.539 --> 00:17:56.000 together. So I guess that's how you create impact 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.500 when you're in advertising. Well, the tagline 00:18:00.500 --> 00:18:03.400 I came up with is which I started with. The message 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.559 I wanted to point out when I used Hitler is that 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:08.599 if you look at a lot of child abuse messages, 00:18:08.779 --> 00:18:11.579 it always shows like a little kid with a bruise 00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:13.940 on their face sitting in the corner with a Raggedy 00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:17.400 Ann doll who, you know, was abused by some adult. 00:18:17.500 --> 00:18:21.960 Right. The idea behind this Hitler ad was this 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:24.599 is an issue that affects all of us, whether or 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:27.799 not you're you know, you may be the best parent 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.140 in the world. Right. Or maybe you don't even 00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:35.579 have kids. But because in Hitler's case, he was 00:18:35.579 --> 00:18:37.900 an abused child that did not get the help that 00:18:37.900 --> 00:18:42.200 he needed. And all of his emotional, psychological 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.400 issues related to the abuse that he had growing 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:49.950 up. ended up turning into the monster that he 00:18:49.950 --> 00:18:54.309 became. And this is why this is an issue that 00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:56.809 everyone needs to reckon with. Because it wasn't 00:18:56.809 --> 00:18:59.549 just Hitler. If you look at the history of a 00:18:59.549 --> 00:19:05.390 lot of famous criminals and people like Hitler, 00:19:05.509 --> 00:19:07.549 Charles Manson, for example. Do you know who 00:19:07.549 --> 00:19:11.250 Charles Manson is? Of course. Okay, okay. Well, 00:19:11.309 --> 00:19:14.009 some of the people listening who are under 40 00:19:14.009 --> 00:19:17.099 may not know. Charles Mann is one of the most 00:19:17.099 --> 00:19:21.539 famous murderers in U .S. history. He was abused 00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:25.299 as a kid. And, you know, pretty much if you look 00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:31.400 at any major criminal and are able to find out 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:34.420 about their history, not in every case, but in 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:36.960 many cases, they were abused as kids. So that 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.119 was the message. And the tagline was, child abuse, 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:43.400 it hurts all of us, was the tagline. So when 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:45.759 I featured showed this ad, I featured Hitler, 00:19:45.940 --> 00:19:49.599 Charles Manson, Lee Harvey Oswald, who shot who 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.200 assassinated John Kennedy, who was very famous 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.119 for people who are baby boomers, at least very 00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:00.480 famous. They know what he looks like. And Mussolini 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.400 also. Again, I'm dating myself. But, you know, 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:09.980 famous murderers and insane people, basically. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.140 And the headline was some abused children grow 00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:16.500 up to become famous. That was, that was the headline, 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:21.019 which is, which is something that my, you know, 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.400 listen, you could have the great headline. If 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.759 you don't get people to read the copy and the 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.039 ad, it's not going to, it's not going to work. 00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:32.480 So my, the reason I wanted to have that headline 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.559 to kind of raise eyebrows is because I wanted 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:37.400 them to read the copy. And when you say some 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.230 abused. children grow up to become famous and 00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:43.670 you show Hitler and Mussolini, you want to understand 00:20:43.670 --> 00:20:47.789 what the copy is. And the copy just said, the 00:20:47.789 --> 00:20:51.630 fact of the matter is that 80 % of criminals 00:20:51.630 --> 00:20:55.450 in our prisons were abused as kids. So with four 00:20:55.450 --> 00:21:00.569 people pictured in this ad. Doesn't mean that 00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:04.609 every abused kid turns into a criminal, but 80 00:21:04.609 --> 00:21:08.339 % of the people in prison. or abused as kids. 00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:11.099 So this is a problem that affects all of us. 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:13.160 And here's an 800 number if you'd like to get 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:16.180 more information or if you know any people or 00:21:16.180 --> 00:21:18.000 kids that are being abused, you know, please 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.960 call this number. So that was the gist of the 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:26.779 ad. Wow. So now let's fast forward to today. 00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:31.140 What are you focusing on? We had mentioned that 00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:34.440 you're sharing knowledge and you're in podcasts. 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:39.500 Where's your passion at today? Well, people can't 00:21:39.500 --> 00:21:47.420 see me, but I'm old. So I'm 71. So it was probably, 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:51.380 I don't know, seven or eight years ago that I 00:21:51.380 --> 00:21:56.420 looked at my net worth and my financial situation, 00:21:56.539 --> 00:21:59.000 realized that if I didn't want to, I didn't need 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:02.039 to continue. hustling for clients and hustling 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:04.420 for work, I could pretty much focus on anything 00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:06.180 I wanted to do. And one of the things I enjoy 00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:11.319 doing is this. I love giving back. I love sharing 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.660 my stories and hopefully some wisdom that I've 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:20.440 gained in the years that I've been working and 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:24.000 working as an entrepreneur. So I've been, at 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.519 this point, Sheila, close to 100 podcasts I've 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:31.250 done in the past several years. As we talked 00:22:31.250 --> 00:22:33.349 about earlier, I was also a volunteer for SCORE, 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:37.869 the organization for retired executives. So now 00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:41.470 I like continue. I mean, basically, this is what 00:22:41.470 --> 00:22:43.109 I've done throughout my career is try to find 00:22:43.109 --> 00:22:46.930 time to work for public service organizations 00:22:46.930 --> 00:22:49.589 and causes that I'm passionate about. Just now 00:22:49.589 --> 00:22:53.109 that I have the time, I could devote a lot more 00:22:53.109 --> 00:22:56.569 time to it than I was able to when I was working 00:22:56.569 --> 00:22:58.950 full time. So that's. That's one of the things 00:22:58.950 --> 00:23:03.509 I enjoy doing now. Leaving your legacy? Yeah, 00:23:03.630 --> 00:23:05.809 for sure. So what do you want to be remembered 00:23:05.809 --> 00:23:11.650 for? Well, it would be nice to be remembered 00:23:11.650 --> 00:23:14.750 for some of what we're talking about now, some 00:23:14.750 --> 00:23:18.930 of the work that I've done for these very worthy 00:23:18.930 --> 00:23:22.390 organizations. I mean, I just mentioned child 00:23:22.390 --> 00:23:25.269 abuse, but over the course of my career, I probably 00:23:25.269 --> 00:23:28.500 worked on... three dozen, was involved with three 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:34.180 dozen various causes and nonprofit organizations. 00:23:34.700 --> 00:23:36.660 Child abuse just happened to be one of them. 00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:39.980 So I think that's a pretty good legacy to leave. 00:23:40.220 --> 00:23:42.599 You know, as well as these podcasts that I'm 00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:45.559 now sharing, and as I mentioned, just sharing 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:53.940 my wisdom and knowledge about marketing. I mean, 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:56.000 you're asking me a lot of questions about my 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.519 career, but a lot of the podcasts I've been on 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:06.500 focus specifically on marketing and how business 00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:09.259 owners can do a better job of marketing their 00:24:09.259 --> 00:24:13.680 business. So that's just another legacy I've 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:16.240 left, helping business owners be successful. 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:19.259 So I'm definitely sticking out as one of those 00:24:19.259 --> 00:24:21.799 podcasts you're going to remember because I asked 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:26.279 you different questions. And I absolutely loved 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.640 your story. You inspired me from the moment that 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:33.160 you said, I got fired four times and it could 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:37.839 have been 30 years ago because I love these stories 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.019 that have such meaning at the end and they provide 00:24:41.019 --> 00:24:43.339 hope. And so you're providing hope to anyone 00:24:43.339 --> 00:24:46.829 that perhaps today. isn't happy in their career 00:24:46.829 --> 00:24:51.309 or perhaps is fearing getting fired or, you know, 00:24:51.329 --> 00:24:55.150 their job is going to get taken away by AI. And 00:24:55.150 --> 00:24:59.069 as a SCORE mentor as well, I've always looked 00:24:59.069 --> 00:25:01.509 for the opportunity because that really is the 00:25:01.509 --> 00:25:04.430 entrepreneurial mindset. If you want to start 00:25:04.430 --> 00:25:06.430 something, you need a need, you got to solve 00:25:06.430 --> 00:25:10.549 a problem. And so what a better way, you know, 00:25:10.549 --> 00:25:13.990 to find a solution or a problem than... when 00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:16.309 you're facing it yourself so I think that by 00:25:16.309 --> 00:25:19.829 switching that mindset you can end up living 00:25:19.829 --> 00:25:23.450 a much brighter life making a bigger impact in 00:25:23.450 --> 00:25:26.410 the world when you have that freedom like you 00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:29.809 did your creativity just unleashed and look at 00:25:29.809 --> 00:25:32.490 where you're at and if we had more time we'd 00:25:32.490 --> 00:25:35.309 go over each and every one of the awards maybe 00:25:35.309 --> 00:25:37.470 I'll even share if you want a piece of the video 00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:42.450 because You've obviously impacted a lot of organizations 00:25:42.450 --> 00:25:45.549 and had a lot of impressive campaigns throughout 00:25:45.549 --> 00:25:49.829 your career, perhaps even today. Well, thank 00:25:49.829 --> 00:25:52.109 you, Jill. I appreciate that. But you're right. 00:25:52.250 --> 00:25:54.769 I mean, I think that's, you know, at the time, 00:25:54.769 --> 00:25:58.710 it wasn't really something I wanted to talk a 00:25:58.710 --> 00:26:01.470 lot about, about getting fired. That's not a 00:26:01.470 --> 00:26:05.109 good way to brand yourself, you know, when you're 00:26:05.109 --> 00:26:08.450 still... You know, it got to the point, Sheila, 00:26:08.569 --> 00:26:12.490 where when I was meeting with recruiters to try 00:26:12.490 --> 00:26:16.849 to get a new job, you have to be honest with 00:26:16.849 --> 00:26:20.009 them. And that's not a great selling point to 00:26:20.009 --> 00:26:22.529 say that you've been fired multiple times. It 00:26:22.529 --> 00:26:25.789 got to the point where recruiters weren't even 00:26:25.789 --> 00:26:28.329 interested in talking to me. You know, I had 00:26:28.329 --> 00:26:31.529 to figure things out on my own. that I don't 00:26:31.529 --> 00:26:33.390 have to worry about it. That's, I think, one 00:26:33.390 --> 00:26:35.930 of the reasons I get on all these podcasts, because 00:26:35.930 --> 00:26:38.990 not just the fact that I got fired four times, 00:26:39.029 --> 00:26:43.150 but the fact that it was only after, as you just 00:26:43.150 --> 00:26:45.509 said, only after getting fired all those times 00:26:45.509 --> 00:26:50.529 that all the success happened to me in my career, 00:26:50.609 --> 00:26:52.549 getting invited, honored to the White House and 00:26:52.549 --> 00:26:56.650 the UN and starting an ad agency that became 00:26:56.650 --> 00:26:59.029 one of the most award -winning agencies in the 00:26:59.029 --> 00:27:02.630 country. All of that happened after getting fired 00:27:02.630 --> 00:27:05.490 that fourth time. So now that's a great hook 00:27:05.490 --> 00:27:08.869 to get me on some podcasts and talk about it. 00:27:09.289 --> 00:27:12.509 It does. And it gives, you know, other generations 00:27:12.509 --> 00:27:15.430 like Gen Z that's growing up in a whole different 00:27:15.430 --> 00:27:19.009 age when we're talking about TV ads. I don't 00:27:19.009 --> 00:27:21.829 even know that they watch TV today, right? So 00:27:21.829 --> 00:27:26.210 I love so many different aspects of the story, 00:27:26.309 --> 00:27:31.400 but I absolutely love that. And it also makes 00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.000 you different. And I think with maturity, right? 00:27:34.099 --> 00:27:38.200 I'm not a spring chicken. You end up being more 00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:40.200 comfortable with yourself and, you know, being 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:43.920 different and standing out. When we were talking 00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.759 before, I said, yeah, no, I did program. A lot 00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:49.819 of people look at me like, well, huh? And at 00:27:49.819 --> 00:27:52.259 first I took it the wrong way. Like, I don't 00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:54.940 look like a programmer. You know, I'm a mom. 00:27:54.940 --> 00:27:57.480 I've got these three kids. But then I ended up 00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:01.279 embracing. That that difference helped me stand 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:05.420 out. And so I love your story. You have me. That 00:28:05.420 --> 00:28:09.000 was the best talk. Let me just say one last thing, 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.759 Sheila, because I think this is really an important 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:17.299 thing for your listeners to know about. Once 00:28:17.299 --> 00:28:20.000 I went on my, you know, even when I was in my 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:24.680 agency with a business partner, even though we 00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:29.319 were entrepreneurs. I couldn't do whatever I 00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:34.799 wanted. I still had a partner that I had to work 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:39.700 with. And not all the time. We didn't agree on 00:28:39.700 --> 00:28:42.119 a lot of things. I couldn't kind of go in whatever 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:44.819 direction I wanted. For example, again, I'm dating 00:28:44.819 --> 00:28:46.859 myself. I was very interested in the Internet. 00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:53.259 He wasn't. And so we only worked together for 00:28:53.259 --> 00:28:56.259 about three and a half, four years. Eventually, 00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:00.289 I. came to the decision that he was holding me 00:29:00.289 --> 00:29:03.170 back. And it was a hard decision because we were 00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:06.730 very successful and I didn't have any false illusions 00:29:06.730 --> 00:29:10.190 that I could continue to be successful without 00:29:10.190 --> 00:29:12.809 someone who was such a great new business guy. 00:29:12.990 --> 00:29:16.769 But I had to take a chance because things weren't 00:29:16.769 --> 00:29:19.230 working out and I went on my own. But this was 00:29:19.230 --> 00:29:21.750 right at the time where the internet was becoming 00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:25.329 a thing. And my first website went up in late 00:29:25.329 --> 00:29:29.460 95. And I didn't really, I wasn't a technology 00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:32.920 guy. But once my website went up, I had some 00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:35.279 coders code the thing. And this is before there 00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.599 were templates and WordPress and Wix and all 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.299 that stuff. Everything was, you know, the old 00:29:41.299 --> 00:29:43.359 days, custom coded. You can appreciate that. 00:29:44.140 --> 00:29:47.859 And so once the website went up, then I realized, 00:29:48.019 --> 00:29:51.420 well, if I want to change anything on the website, 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:54.640 I've got to learn how to go in the back end of 00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.640 this website. And figure out, understand coding 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:02.819 and know where I need to go if I want to change 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:05.460 a couple of sentences or change a word here and 00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:09.079 there. So I started learning how to code in the 00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:14.319 mid 90s or late 96, 97, just so I could continue 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:18.960 modifying my website moving forward. So and then 00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:22.240 when podcasting became a thing in 2005, I was 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:25.569 intrigued with that. And I was so intrigued that 00:30:25.569 --> 00:30:29.430 I started learning about podcasting. And by February 00:30:29.430 --> 00:30:32.910 2006, I had my own podcast. It was called The 00:30:32.910 --> 00:30:36.329 Marketing Show. A lot of people who went through 00:30:36.329 --> 00:30:39.869 COVID just discovered what podcasting was just 00:30:39.869 --> 00:30:43.170 not that long ago. Podcasting has been around 00:30:43.170 --> 00:30:47.329 for 20 years. And the point I'm trying to make 00:30:47.329 --> 00:30:54.019 is that in order to be successful, you have to 00:30:54.019 --> 00:31:01.420 continue pursuing your curiosity, continue looking 00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:04.039 at trends. Right now, if I was active, I would 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:07.279 be all over AI. I wouldn't ignore it. I would 00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.559 know everything about it because that's the future. 00:31:10.619 --> 00:31:14.180 It's not going away. And I think it's really 00:31:14.180 --> 00:31:16.700 important. I don't think I would have continued 00:31:16.700 --> 00:31:19.920 to be. So after I walked away from my partnership, 00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:23.940 I was on my own for about 25 years, basically 00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:26.220 without a business partner, doing my own thing. 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:30.819 And again, I didn't know I could be successful 00:31:30.819 --> 00:31:33.440 because I don't have a business background. But 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:35.400 one of the things that enabled me to continue 00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:37.480 to be successful is what I'm talking about now, 00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:42.660 to continue to be an early adapter to some of 00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:45.359 the trends that you can see coming down the road 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:50.039 and know everything about it. If you don't, your 00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:53.500 competitors will. And that's where you'll lose 00:31:53.500 --> 00:31:56.259 out to your competitors because they're engaged 00:31:56.259 --> 00:32:00.720 in it earlier than you are. So you've got to 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:04.920 really be able to be aware of the coming trends 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:09.640 and know everything about them. So you can brand 00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:12.440 yourself as an expert in all the things that 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:15.259 are coming down the road. So you know that. And 00:32:15.259 --> 00:32:17.180 I think it's an important message for all of 00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:19.480 your listeners to hear that you have to constantly 00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:25.180 evolve your business model, as I did. Well, thank 00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:28.799 you so much for joining me today. Thank you, 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.819 Sheila. My pleasure. Great. Good listen. Good 00:32:31.819 --> 00:32:35.440 luck with your podcast. Thank you all for tuning 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.339 in to another episode of Milestone Moments in 00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:41.000 Business and Leadership. I will leave all of 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.339 John's contact information so that you can. Follow 00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:48.460 his journey in the show notes. Until next time.