WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.080 Welcome to Milestone Moments, the show where 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.960 we explore the journeys that lead to success. 00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:10.220 I'm Sheila Slick, your host and founder of Five 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:13.859 Milestones. In every episode, we will bring you 00:00:13.859 --> 00:00:17.100 insights from the minds of entrepreneurs, leaders 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:20.820 and experts who will share not just their expertise, 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:24.120 but the milestone moments that have reshaped 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.059 their journeys and led to significant achievements. 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:30.379 So if you're looking for motivation, you're in 00:00:30.379 --> 00:00:33.560 the right place. Subscribe now and discover the 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:40.460 milestones that mark the path to success. Welcome 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:43.799 to another episode of Milestone Moments in Business 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:46.920 and Leadership. I'm Sheila Slick, your host. 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:53.100 And today, my special guest is G. Ranasina. Gee 00:00:53.100 --> 00:00:55.960 has been in marketing since the days of dial 00:00:55.960 --> 00:01:00.719 -up internet and AOL. Today, he's the CEO of 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:04.799 Kexino, an award -winning marketing agency. Over 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:08.560 the past 16 years, Kexino has helped over 400 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.939 startups and small businesses in around 20 countries 00:01:12.939 --> 00:01:18.299 grow awareness, reputation, trust, and most importantly, 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:22.040 sales. A fellow of the Chartered Institute of 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.120 Marketing, G is also a visiting professor at 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:27.739 two business schools where he teaches marketing 00:01:27.739 --> 00:01:31.439 and behavioral economics to final year MBA students. 00:01:31.939 --> 00:01:35.620 Outside of work, G loves to cook, listens to 00:01:35.620 --> 00:01:39.930 music, and plays jazz piano. Well, he wrote very 00:01:39.930 --> 00:01:42.409 badly, but let's just leave it at plays jazz 00:01:42.409 --> 00:01:46.870 piano. Welcome to the show, Jean. You haven't 00:01:46.870 --> 00:01:50.230 heard me play, so the jury's still out. But trust 00:01:50.230 --> 00:01:52.549 me, because I don't get very much time to play 00:01:52.549 --> 00:01:57.549 nowadays, I'm extremely rusty. But what I fail 00:01:57.549 --> 00:02:00.530 in technique, I make up in enthusiasm. But thank 00:02:00.530 --> 00:02:02.590 you very much for inviting me on the show. I 00:02:02.590 --> 00:02:04.790 do appreciate it. Well, thank you for joining 00:02:04.790 --> 00:02:07.090 me. I do love to motivate people and have them 00:02:07.090 --> 00:02:09.650 believe in themselves. And if that's your creative 00:02:09.650 --> 00:02:14.009 way of releasing all of that energy, kudos to 00:02:14.009 --> 00:02:16.789 you. So don't focus so much on the perfection 00:02:16.789 --> 00:02:21.129 of it, just the progress. Absolutely. Yes. So 00:02:21.129 --> 00:02:24.710 I'd like you to take us back to a moment in your 00:02:24.710 --> 00:02:28.289 story, perhaps a challenge or a bold choice that 00:02:28.289 --> 00:02:31.710 led you to where you are and shaped how you approach 00:02:31.710 --> 00:02:35.030 leadership and marketing today. Well, I think 00:02:35.030 --> 00:02:38.310 I can tell you a story which basically was the 00:02:38.310 --> 00:02:41.629 birth of the agency. So we have to go back to 00:02:41.629 --> 00:02:45.750 my previous role where I was the worldwide director 00:02:45.750 --> 00:02:48.270 of marketing for a software company and the software 00:02:48.270 --> 00:02:51.340 company was serving. Whilst it is serving blue 00:02:51.340 --> 00:02:57.060 chip clients such as Ikea, Nestle, Airbus, Marvel, 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:00.580 big, big ticket names. So I was there for seven 00:03:00.580 --> 00:03:03.719 years. And as the worldwide director of marketing, 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:06.039 I was obviously I was inviting marketing agencies 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.400 to come in and pitch for a business. And after 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.000 a while, it occurred to me that none of them 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.319 would take any kind of fiduciary responsibility 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:17.520 for the marketing plans that they were proposing. 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:20.379 Okay. All the agencies I spoke with were more 00:03:20.379 --> 00:03:23.300 interested in the tactical stuff. You know, web 00:03:23.300 --> 00:03:26.860 design, ads, events, PR, and all that sort of 00:03:26.860 --> 00:03:29.020 stuff, okay? Nobody was actually asking me about 00:03:29.020 --> 00:03:31.979 the business result on which the marketing plan 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:34.879 was supposed to deliver on. And that's when I 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.199 had my sort of light bulb moment, if you like, 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.740 my aha moment. It sort of dawned on me that there 00:03:40.740 --> 00:03:43.199 must be a ton of startups and small businesses 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:47.210 out there who needed help with marketing. But 00:03:47.210 --> 00:03:50.449 from a business perspective, designing and managing 00:03:50.449 --> 00:03:53.069 a marketing plan to generate qualified leads 00:03:53.069 --> 00:03:56.430 to ultimately produce a tangible commercial difference 00:03:56.430 --> 00:04:00.750 to their business. At the same time, we're talking 00:04:00.750 --> 00:04:05.310 about the end of 2007, beginning of 2008. So 00:04:05.310 --> 00:04:07.490 as you'll remember, that sort of time, the internet 00:04:07.490 --> 00:04:10.430 was really sort of gathering a full head of steam. 00:04:10.509 --> 00:04:13.219 It was beginning to affect our daily lives. And 00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:15.219 of course, like all of these technologies, it 00:04:15.219 --> 00:04:17.279 was the bigger brands who were the ones who were 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:19.459 taking advantage of all the potential that the 00:04:19.459 --> 00:04:21.279 internet provided, right? Because they've got 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.120 more technical resources, more experience, and 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:26.939 obviously deeper pockets, which meant small businesses 00:04:26.939 --> 00:04:30.379 were getting left behind. If you remember, 2007 00:04:30.379 --> 00:04:34.660 was the year the iPhone was launched, okay? And 00:04:34.660 --> 00:04:38.240 affordable broadband was something that everyday 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.519 people, normal people like you and I, could sort 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.329 of afford, right? And so I thought that there 00:04:44.329 --> 00:04:47.350 was a perfect storm, an opportunity for a marketing 00:04:47.350 --> 00:04:50.230 resource aimed at small businesses and startups 00:04:50.230 --> 00:04:53.029 that could help them leverage the power of online 00:04:53.029 --> 00:04:55.949 engagement. So I looked around to see if there 00:04:55.949 --> 00:04:57.750 was a marketing agency that took that kind of 00:04:57.750 --> 00:05:02.029 approach. I couldn't find one. So we started 00:05:02.029 --> 00:05:04.930 our own. And at the beginning, there were three 00:05:04.930 --> 00:05:09.350 of us. So I left my cushy corporate job with... 00:05:09.529 --> 00:05:12.649 all its trappings and expense accounts and company 00:05:12.649 --> 00:05:16.410 BMWs and international travel and all that sort 00:05:16.410 --> 00:05:20.009 of stuff. And we launched Kexino, which is our 00:05:20.009 --> 00:05:23.970 marketing agency. As I said, it was in 2008, 00:05:24.110 --> 00:05:26.110 which you'll probably recall was not exactly 00:05:26.110 --> 00:05:29.810 the best time to start a business. Not exactly 00:05:29.810 --> 00:05:33.290 my best business decision, but with not a small 00:05:33.290 --> 00:05:36.990 amount of luck and with the support of some fantastic 00:05:36.990 --> 00:05:39.379 clients who we had at the time. You know, we 00:05:39.379 --> 00:05:42.279 weathered the storm of the post -Boomer session, 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:46.199 and 17 -plus years later, you know, we're still 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.199 here. We know we've won a few awards. We've branched 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:52.620 out into behavioral science, design, branding, 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.839 as well as the usual tactical stuff, you know, 00:05:55.879 --> 00:06:00.860 websites, copywriting, PR, SEO, social, video, 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.300 and all that usual sort of stuff. Yeah, that 00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:06.220 was really the pivotal moment, really, to sort 00:06:06.220 --> 00:06:13.279 of get into... uh get ahead really of where the 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:16.339 business owners for small businesses and and 00:06:16.339 --> 00:06:18.860 startups were needed to leverage their internet 00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:22.959 and cut through the disinformation and misinformation 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.740 that was being spread around at the time to actually 00:06:25.740 --> 00:06:30.000 find and hone programs which were tangibly effective 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.769 right not generating noise and fluff and, you 00:06:33.769 --> 00:06:37.029 know, ego -centric metrics, but things that actually 00:06:37.029 --> 00:06:38.829 move the revenue needle. Because at the end of 00:06:38.829 --> 00:06:41.470 the day, sales is what we're talking about, right? 00:06:41.689 --> 00:06:43.670 Marketing is sales. Marketing involves selling. 00:06:44.310 --> 00:06:47.850 And, you know, if it doesn't sell anything, it's 00:06:47.850 --> 00:06:51.009 not marketing, right? It's fluff. It's just extra 00:06:51.009 --> 00:06:54.670 noise that's being added to the environment. 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:57.639 That's where we come from. We come from a business 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:01.339 first perspective rather than looking to shoehorn 00:07:01.339 --> 00:07:07.660 existing cookie cutter approaches into an organization's 00:07:07.660 --> 00:07:11.379 business growth plans. Sorry for the long answer 00:07:11.379 --> 00:07:16.620 there. No, no problem. So since you work a lot 00:07:16.620 --> 00:07:21.079 with startups and small businesses, going back. 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.959 to how you were in corporate in a nice cushy 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:28.879 job and then went out on your own, what advice 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:31.259 would you give to someone today that's in that 00:07:31.259 --> 00:07:33.279 position? They're in corporate and they want 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.759 to step out and do their own business or their 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:42.600 own startup. Be careful of what you wish for. 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:46.160 I remember, I think it was something that... 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:49.680 You said in one of your podcasts, like 99 % of 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:55.279 entrepreneurs actually go back to a corporate 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:58.439 environment. You said that on a podcast or an 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.259 article. I remember reading that. Entrepreneurship 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:05.980 is a very different position from being a salaried 00:08:05.980 --> 00:08:10.019 employee. You never switch off. It takes a very 00:08:10.019 --> 00:08:13.199 certain type of personality. It's a very lonely 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:18.050 endeavor. Even if you go into partnership with 00:08:18.050 --> 00:08:20.870 someone, there are things that you can and can't 00:08:20.870 --> 00:08:25.089 confide in with people. And the amount of self 00:08:25.089 --> 00:08:28.870 -discipline required cannot be underestimated. 00:08:29.509 --> 00:08:34.070 So yes, obviously the other side of the coin 00:08:34.070 --> 00:08:39.850 is very attractive. What's missing is that when 00:08:39.850 --> 00:08:41.750 you're in your corporate job, whether you... 00:08:42.029 --> 00:08:45.090 Bust your balls to work as hard as you can. Sorry, 00:08:45.210 --> 00:08:48.210 I didn't check whether colourful language was 00:08:48.210 --> 00:08:50.389 appropriate for this podcast. I apologise if 00:08:50.389 --> 00:08:53.529 I've overstepped the mark. Sorry, I normally 00:08:53.529 --> 00:08:57.289 check these things in advance. But yes, whether 00:08:57.289 --> 00:09:01.889 you bust a gut working as hard as you can for 00:09:01.889 --> 00:09:05.470 20 odd days of the month, or whether you sit 00:09:05.470 --> 00:09:09.429 back with your feet on the desk for all of that 00:09:09.429 --> 00:09:12.580 time. you still get your salary check at the 00:09:12.580 --> 00:09:16.600 end of the month. That safety net is instantly 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:19.240 removed when you go out on your own. It's sink 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:23.820 or swim time. So you need to be physically and 00:09:23.820 --> 00:09:27.019 mentally prepared for that and not to underestimate 00:09:27.019 --> 00:09:32.139 the physical demands that it imposes on business 00:09:32.139 --> 00:09:35.039 owners. A business owner of any size, whether 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.179 you're talking about a startup, small business, 00:09:37.340 --> 00:09:40.460 or if you're buying an existing... an existing 00:09:40.460 --> 00:09:43.120 organization, it doesn't really matter. The amount 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:47.500 of energy required is substantial. Well, I agree 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:50.200 with you with the self -discipline. It's required. 00:09:51.860 --> 00:09:55.679 It's not optional, is it? No, it's not. But, 00:09:55.700 --> 00:09:58.639 you know, being an entrepreneur and, you know, 00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:00.700 the isolation, there's different ways around 00:10:00.700 --> 00:10:03.840 it as well. You can find support in communities, 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:07.279 perhaps a partner as well. Although you said 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:10.610 sometimes it still feels... I've worked with 00:10:10.610 --> 00:10:15.909 family. I've worked on my own. And each experience 00:10:15.909 --> 00:10:19.610 has been quite different. But no matter whom 00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:22.330 I've worked with, even alone, you always need 00:10:22.330 --> 00:10:25.509 your pillars of support because it's really hard 00:10:25.509 --> 00:10:28.870 to make decisions sometimes alone. There's no 00:10:28.870 --> 00:10:32.509 such thing as a self -made successful business 00:10:32.509 --> 00:10:36.690 owner. There's no such thing as a self -made 00:10:36.690 --> 00:10:40.879 business owner. Every single business owner on 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:42.919 the planet is standing on the shoulders of giants, 00:10:43.100 --> 00:10:46.600 right? There is a support network in there that 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:49.240 help them get to where they are. And anybody 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.759 who says that they're self -made is as deluded 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:54.679 as far as I'm concerned because you can't make 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:59.320 it on your own. And you're really in a state 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.960 of delusion if you think you can or you have. 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.000 One of my guests previously. He had brought up 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:09.200 a great point that with AI, and I haven't even 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.240 finished asking you the questions with the AI, 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:14.879 but with the AI, there's going to be a lot more 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.899 solopreneurs moving forward because they're able 00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:24.539 to use AI for a lot of different tasks. And we'll 00:11:24.539 --> 00:11:26.980 come up to a question with the AI. But that led 00:11:26.980 --> 00:11:30.720 me thinking, wow, you know, with AI, if entrepreneurs 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:34.539 are able to leverage it. then they're not even 00:11:34.539 --> 00:11:36.799 going to need that big of a team. So he firmly 00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:40.840 believed that solopreneurship was where we're 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:46.120 heading in terms of entrepreneurship. So in your 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:49.360 writing, because I did enjoy reading a lot of 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:53.080 your blogs that you have in your website, they 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:57.220 had a whole different angle to marketing. I enjoyed 00:11:57.220 --> 00:12:00.299 some of them. One of them was the dark side of 00:12:00.299 --> 00:12:03.620 marketing. how people sometimes don't share in 00:12:03.620 --> 00:12:06.120 public. And so how do you measure that metric? 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.700 But the one that really caught my attention was 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:12.360 one that talks about seeking consensus, that 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:17.080 that can stifle innovation. And it points out 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:20.220 that with strong leadership and unconventional 00:12:20.220 --> 00:12:23.080 thinking, those are the two things that drive 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.059 real change. So looking back on your journey, 00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:29.909 what moment in your history, in your story, Have 00:12:29.909 --> 00:12:33.070 you had to push against, you know, conventional 00:12:33.070 --> 00:12:36.610 thinking or conventional wisdom to be able to 00:12:36.610 --> 00:12:41.509 shape an innovative approach to marketing? We 00:12:41.509 --> 00:12:46.090 were working with a client a few years ago now, 00:12:46.230 --> 00:12:51.509 a client based in Atlanta. And they are a company 00:12:51.509 --> 00:12:56.330 that does menu boxes. If you know what a menu 00:12:56.330 --> 00:13:01.529 box is, you subscribe to a website and every 00:13:01.529 --> 00:13:06.129 week, day, two weeks, whatever you want, they'll 00:13:06.129 --> 00:13:11.809 send you a box full of chilled, fresh ingredients 00:13:11.809 --> 00:13:17.549 and a preparation card to enable you to make 00:13:17.549 --> 00:13:21.529 a delicious, nutritious, home -cooked meal at 00:13:21.529 --> 00:13:24.019 home. Okay? So you don't have to buy anything. 00:13:24.220 --> 00:13:26.139 You have got all the ingredients in the box. 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:28.679 You just need to add salt and pepper. All the 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.899 spices and seasonings and proteins and vegetables 00:13:32.899 --> 00:13:34.899 and carbohydrates and all that stuff are all 00:13:34.899 --> 00:13:39.019 in the box. So it's very easy. So for people 00:13:39.019 --> 00:13:45.799 who are time short, don't have time to cook or 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.039 don't have time to shop for a week or even for 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:53.049 a couple of days, the stuff arrives. None of 00:13:53.049 --> 00:13:55.309 the meals take longer than 20 minutes to make, 00:13:55.450 --> 00:13:58.350 okay? But it stops you buying takeout and just 00:13:58.350 --> 00:14:02.350 being, you know, going down that road. So this 00:14:02.350 --> 00:14:04.490 company had been doing this for a while and they'd 00:14:04.490 --> 00:14:06.909 been pretty successful, but they'd sort of hit 00:14:06.909 --> 00:14:10.169 a ceiling in terms of sales and they couldn't 00:14:10.169 --> 00:14:13.669 really move to the next level. They also looked 00:14:13.669 --> 00:14:17.450 at where their existing market was and the ICP, 00:14:17.490 --> 00:14:20.659 the ideal customer profile. The ideal customer 00:14:20.659 --> 00:14:25.960 profile is an archetype of the most likely profile 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:29.419 of person who is going to be receptive for whatever 00:14:29.419 --> 00:14:32.679 you're trying to sell. So they identified a number 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.039 of different ICPs, you know, in terms of demographics, 00:14:35.419 --> 00:14:38.720 ethnographics, age, social class, you know, whatever 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:42.320 it may be. And they were hitting a bit of a ceiling 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:48.250 and they wanted to expand because they're ICPs 00:14:48.250 --> 00:14:51.250 were generally in a similar sort of age group, 00:14:51.450 --> 00:14:56.129 you know, from mid -20s up to about mid -30s 00:14:56.129 --> 00:15:00.049 in age. And what they wanted to do was to get 00:15:00.049 --> 00:15:04.029 to an older generation of people, specifically 00:15:04.029 --> 00:15:10.330 over 50s, because they thought of people who 00:15:10.330 --> 00:15:13.389 were either newly single for whatever reason, 00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:17.899 were cooking for... for one, was a bit of a pain 00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:21.000 because of the economies of scale that you get 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.279 if you're cooking for two, three, or four. But 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.840 none of the marketing work that they were doing 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.960 seemed to resonate with that particular type 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:30.799 of audience profile. They were doing a lot of 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.559 digital advertising. They were doing a lot of 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:38.389 inbound stuff. But nothing was working. We had 00:15:38.389 --> 00:15:40.309 a look at the problem. We did a lot of customer 00:15:40.309 --> 00:15:43.230 research. We did a couple of focus groups. And 00:15:43.230 --> 00:15:45.690 I remember having the first conversation I had 00:15:45.690 --> 00:15:47.429 with the marketing director of this company. 00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:51.129 And I said what we needed to do, or what we needed 00:15:51.129 --> 00:15:57.110 to at least test, was communication via snail 00:15:57.110 --> 00:16:01.049 mail, direct mail, USPS mail. And seriously, 00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:04.330 Sheila, you should have seen her face. She was 00:16:04.330 --> 00:16:07.779 like, what? You know, it was like I was suggesting 00:16:07.779 --> 00:16:10.519 bringing back dinosaurs or something. It was 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.240 like, you're kidding, right? And I said, no, 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.399 seriously. The thing is about printed direct 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:18.379 mail is, number one, we don't get very much of 00:16:18.379 --> 00:16:21.279 it anymore. Remember the days when we used to 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:25.279 get tons of this stuff filling up our mailboxes, 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.360 our physical mailboxes? Nowadays, not so much, 00:16:28.419 --> 00:16:30.500 especially if it's personally addressed to us. 00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:32.600 The other thing is, if it's personally addressed 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:36.120 to us, Unlike any form of electronic communication, 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:41.840 there is pretty much a 100 % open rate to success. 00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:46.240 You get an envelope addressed to Sheila, I bet 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:47.779 the farm that you're going to open that envelope. 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.580 Now, you may throw it in the bin straight after, 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:53.100 because you found out, oh, it's a bit of spam 00:16:53.100 --> 00:16:57.080 or whatever else, but you will open it. Yet, 00:16:57.100 --> 00:16:59.980 how many times have you got an email, and just 00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:02.200 by looking at the sender who you've never heard 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.839 of, or just by looking at the subject line, you 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:10.599 know that this is just spam. And you delete it 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.759 without even reading it. Also, people of a certain 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:18.240 age, and I'll include myself in that group, I 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.420 wouldn't dare include anybody else on this call, 00:17:20.500 --> 00:17:23.380 but I'll certainly include myself in this age 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:27.240 group, grew up with snail mail. And there is 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.880 a familiarity with that form of communication. 00:17:31.789 --> 00:17:35.589 which perhaps doesn't exist with people who are 00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:38.809 younger. It's a thing called costly signaling. 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:42.930 So what that means is the very fact that I've 00:17:42.930 --> 00:17:46.690 actually spent money by communicating with you 00:17:46.690 --> 00:17:51.769 through a particular channel lends additional 00:17:51.769 --> 00:17:54.529 gravitas to the veracity of that communication. 00:17:55.890 --> 00:18:01.890 In other words, if I advertise a bunch of steak 00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:07.029 knives for 50 bucks online you have one perception 00:18:07.029 --> 00:18:10.769 of the quality of those steak knives but if i 00:18:10.769 --> 00:18:15.569 take out an ad for a 48 sheet billboard poster 00:18:15.569 --> 00:18:19.970 for the same steak knives you have a different 00:18:19.970 --> 00:18:21.849 perception of the quality of those steak knives 00:18:21.849 --> 00:18:25.970 because of costly signaling because you think 00:18:25.970 --> 00:18:29.910 well these knives must be good because if they 00:18:29.910 --> 00:18:34.069 weren't then this company would not put their 00:18:34.069 --> 00:18:36.569 money where their mouth is, right? They've got 00:18:36.569 --> 00:18:41.049 skin in the game to actually spend money on advertising, 00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:43.849 which I don't know how much it is, but I know 00:18:43.849 --> 00:18:46.829 it's certainly more than putting an ad on Facebook 00:18:46.829 --> 00:18:48.609 or Instagram or something. Do you see what I 00:18:48.609 --> 00:18:50.890 mean? So the very fact that somebody's taken 00:18:50.890 --> 00:18:55.089 the time to find out your name and print it out 00:18:55.089 --> 00:18:57.150 onto a piece of paper, fold that piece of paper 00:18:57.150 --> 00:18:59.710 into an envelope, address that envelope and stick 00:18:59.710 --> 00:19:04.509 it in the post, It gives additional credence, 00:19:04.529 --> 00:19:08.869 additional authenticity, additional trust signals 00:19:08.869 --> 00:19:14.009 to the recipient. So I explained all of this 00:19:14.009 --> 00:19:16.210 to the marketing director of this food box company, 00:19:16.349 --> 00:19:18.910 and she wasn't having any of it. And it took 00:19:18.910 --> 00:19:22.589 two or three conversations before eventually 00:19:22.589 --> 00:19:26.970 she said, OK, OK, good grief. She waved the white 00:19:26.970 --> 00:19:29.630 flag. She said, OK, let's do a test. We'll pick 00:19:29.630 --> 00:19:32.589 a couple of zip codes. And we'll do a test and 00:19:32.589 --> 00:19:35.630 we'll compare it to zip codes where we didn't 00:19:35.630 --> 00:19:38.769 do the mail drop. And we'll see what happened. 00:19:39.309 --> 00:19:43.210 Long story short, what happened? 34 % uptick 00:19:43.210 --> 00:19:46.589 in sales compared to any campaign they'd ever 00:19:46.589 --> 00:19:50.369 done ever. Not just for the target demographic. 00:19:50.769 --> 00:19:53.329 They ran it two or three times afterwards and 00:19:53.329 --> 00:19:56.970 it was still well into double digit growth compared 00:19:56.970 --> 00:20:00.230 to anything they'd done before. So just by thinking. 00:20:01.870 --> 00:20:04.369 irrationally, illogically, but thinking from 00:20:04.369 --> 00:20:07.690 a behavioral standpoint about what will react 00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:10.849 favorably with the customer, they were able to 00:20:10.849 --> 00:20:12.930 buck the trend of their industry and then their 00:20:12.930 --> 00:20:17.650 category and realize over and above sales targets 00:20:17.650 --> 00:20:20.470 for any of their competitors. Now, I'm not saying 00:20:20.470 --> 00:20:22.569 that the answer to your problems is to do a mail 00:20:22.569 --> 00:20:25.269 drop. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying 00:20:25.269 --> 00:20:28.799 is unconventional thinking. sometimes gives you 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.900 the answers to your problems because if you lose 00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:35.519 purely logical pragmatic thinking you will only 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:40.160 get one particular solution set and that's the 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.299 same solution set that your competitors are going 00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:44.799 to arrive at because we're all thinking logically 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:47.799 and rationally but logical and rationally doesn't 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:50.700 mean you're going to get to the right answer 00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:54.460 whatever the right answer may be Because as human 00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:57.259 beings, we are not logical and rational people. 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:01.740 We're beings, okay? We don't operate, we don't 00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:06.359 function predictably, logically and rationally. 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:11.019 Our predisposition is emotional and contextual. 00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:16.619 We can change our decision -making process based 00:21:16.619 --> 00:21:19.019 upon the context of what that decision is made. 00:21:19.789 --> 00:21:22.670 as well as our emotional state at that particular 00:21:22.670 --> 00:21:27.950 time. And I defy anybody to disagree with me 00:21:27.950 --> 00:21:33.349 on that. We have all bought something for reasons 00:21:33.349 --> 00:21:38.289 that are emotionally based, as opposed to reason, 00:21:38.470 --> 00:21:42.710 rationality, or logic. Now, we'll tell ourselves 00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:44.710 a story after the fact. We need to have that 00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:48.309 narrative to go with that. But anything we buy. 00:21:49.349 --> 00:21:52.269 Whether it's a home or whether it's a pair of 00:21:52.269 --> 00:21:56.670 socks, anything in between, we buy here. We buy 00:21:56.670 --> 00:22:00.369 from the heart and we post -rationalize logically. 00:22:00.630 --> 00:22:04.230 We tell ourselves a story to justify the purchase 00:22:04.230 --> 00:22:09.650 and reassure our mind that we haven't made an 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:13.609 unwise purchase. Sorry, that's another very long 00:22:13.609 --> 00:22:16.970 answer. That's called buyer's remorse. right 00:22:16.970 --> 00:22:19.769 if if we tell ourselves a story and we believe 00:22:19.769 --> 00:22:24.230 it then we keep it if we can't then we're down 00:22:24.230 --> 00:22:28.349 to the store and we're getting a return well 00:22:28.349 --> 00:22:32.049 i love that you brought back what some may consider 00:22:32.049 --> 00:22:35.289 the dinosaur times, right, of print. But I think 00:22:35.289 --> 00:22:39.390 the real lesson behind that is that your company 00:22:39.390 --> 00:22:42.750 also did all of these focus groups. And whether 00:22:42.750 --> 00:22:45.509 you do it in polls or you did them in person, 00:22:45.569 --> 00:22:49.210 you took the time to ask the very segment of 00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:52.509 people. that you wanted to target what they thought 00:22:52.509 --> 00:22:54.730 and that helped you come up with what you're 00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:57.470 calling or perhaps that business owner was calling 00:22:57.470 --> 00:22:59.910 out of this world or irrational. But I want to 00:22:59.910 --> 00:23:02.630 bring you now back to the future and talk about 00:23:02.630 --> 00:23:05.809 that AI because you have been in marketing, you 00:23:05.809 --> 00:23:08.289 have a lot of experience. And I know that when 00:23:08.289 --> 00:23:12.069 we even use the words dial up internet, some 00:23:12.069 --> 00:23:15.809 people perhaps can't comprehend that it was a 00:23:15.809 --> 00:23:18.890 line that you had to plug into a wall. And it 00:23:18.890 --> 00:23:21.450 made a phone call and then it made some screeching 00:23:21.450 --> 00:23:24.410 noises, you know, before. We all relive that 00:23:24.410 --> 00:23:29.029 music, don't we? Absolutely. But now you're navigating 00:23:29.029 --> 00:23:34.150 the rise of AI in the industry. And you're probably 00:23:34.150 --> 00:23:37.910 not just reacting to trends, but you're anticipating. 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:42.039 them so that you can stay sharp. So what's one 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:44.480 thing that you're doing that's shaping how you're 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:49.720 approaching using AI to lead Caxino today and 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:54.220 moving forward? So I'm probably going to piss 00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:58.519 off a few people now. 90 % of the claims which 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:05.119 are made by AI devotees today are absolute BS 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:10.920 and do not stand up to. any form of in -depth 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:16.180 scrutiny. We've all seen the images and videos 00:24:16.180 --> 00:24:21.019 that have been 100 % AI driven, even from very 00:24:21.019 --> 00:24:23.059 large agencies, even from very large brands. 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:26.900 But none of them stand up to further scrutiny 00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:29.759 because all we're talking about is production 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:33.000 and we're not talking about ideation. We're not 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:35.660 talking about creativity. We're not talking about 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:41.259 making those strategic decisions which ai today 00:24:41.259 --> 00:24:47.759 and only today cannot do what we are doing is 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.380 an industry the marketing industry the advertising 00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:52.640 industry because that's the only industries that 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.019 i can speak of right is we are trying to fit 00:24:56.019 --> 00:25:02.539 ai into solving problems which ai is not very 00:25:02.539 --> 00:25:07.279 good at solving instead of using ai to solve 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:10.660 problems that AI is actually very good at solving. 00:25:10.940 --> 00:25:14.019 Firstly, AI doesn't have taste. It doesn't have 00:25:14.019 --> 00:25:16.700 creativity. It doesn't know when it's wrong. 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:20.680 But we as human beings, even if we think we don't 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.380 have a creative bone in our body, we can look 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:27.039 at a piece of writing as an image, as a video, 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:33.579 and something doesn't smell right. Okay? AI doesn't 00:25:33.579 --> 00:25:37.880 have that arbiter. to be able to make the distinction. 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:43.619 So the idea of a solopreneur using a bunch of 00:25:43.619 --> 00:25:48.059 AI tools to fill in the gaps for work is perfectly 00:25:48.059 --> 00:25:52.680 possible. And there may well be the first unicorn 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.779 organization, a billion dollar valued company, 00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.180 which consists of one person. Maybe there will 00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:04.359 be. But the idea that the AI will be able to 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:09.190 think, to be able to make emotional, taste -based, 00:26:09.349 --> 00:26:13.769 experiential -type decisions is for the birds. 00:26:14.750 --> 00:26:18.289 Yes, it will do tasks, but it needs to be prompted. 00:26:18.470 --> 00:26:21.269 And we've all played around with AI, put a prompt 00:26:21.269 --> 00:26:25.009 in, and got an absolute pile of cat vomit coming 00:26:25.009 --> 00:26:27.509 out of the other end because we don't know what 00:26:27.509 --> 00:26:31.759 we're doing, right? Like the old acronym is garbage 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:33.940 in, garbage out. If you don't know what you're 00:26:33.940 --> 00:26:35.960 doing at the front, then you know what you're 00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:38.920 going to get at the back. This is the issue. 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:42.680 So we're already seeing it in the advertising 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:46.420 industry where certain businesses are producing 00:26:46.420 --> 00:26:50.440 like 500 ads with 500 dips of types of creative, 00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:55.220 500 headlines, 500 bits of copy, throwing it 00:26:55.220 --> 00:27:00.109 into a digital ad platform, The platform itself, 00:27:00.269 --> 00:27:03.730 to find the audience, we're not even doing the 00:27:03.730 --> 00:27:07.890 customer targeting stuff. We're leaving it up 00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:10.789 to the algorithms to do that. And then measuring 00:27:10.789 --> 00:27:16.170 whatever ad gives like 0 .001 % better uplift 00:27:16.170 --> 00:27:18.910 compared to the rest, and then doubling down 00:27:18.910 --> 00:27:21.930 on those ads. And we're forgetting about the 00:27:21.930 --> 00:27:28.720 99 % of people who've seen the crud ads. before 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:33.119 they actually see the good good. I'm using that 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:36.119 relative in the relative term, of course, ad. 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:41.180 So we're pissing off 90 % of our target market 00:27:41.180 --> 00:27:47.559 in order to get a algorithm based result, which 00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:52.579 is still not going to be as effective as something 00:27:52.579 --> 00:27:55.500 that was produced by somebody who's had experience 00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:59.619 or education. in the subject matter. AI would 00:27:59.619 --> 00:28:03.079 never come up with I'm loving it. AI could never 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:05.799 come up with just do it. AI would never come 00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:10.079 up with think different. Right? It could do the 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:14.200 poster and it could make it according to printing 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:17.539 specs or banner specs and all the rest of it. 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:20.380 But, you know, that's further downstream. That's 00:28:20.380 --> 00:28:22.319 production stuff. I'm not interested in that. 00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:26.000 I'm interested in the strategy stuff. In the 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:28.880 stuff that, Like I said, we all buy emotionally 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:33.420 and then post -rationalize logically. So any 00:28:33.420 --> 00:28:36.960 form, you look at any ad that you can remember, 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:42.200 or any memory that you've got throughout your 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:47.759 life, every single one of those memories is underpinned 00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:52.859 by a strong emotional force. It could be happiness. 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.119 It could be sadness. It could be anger. It could 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:57.359 be fear. It could be anything. There's positive 00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:00.400 emotions as well as negative. But it's the emotion 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:05.579 that creates the hook to form those memory structures 00:29:05.579 --> 00:29:10.099 in our brain. Every January, Super Bowl time, 00:29:10.299 --> 00:29:13.259 we all go through and we look at the Super Bowl 00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:15.539 ads and we talk about the Super Bowl ads that 00:29:15.539 --> 00:29:18.440 we remember. What are the ones we remember? The 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.539 ones that stand out because they're funny. or 00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:25.960 because they make us think, they create pathos, 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.599 or they create nostalgia, or whatever it is. 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:34.039 These are all emotions, Sheila. It's not a question 00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:35.740 of sticking it out and putting a bunch of bullet 00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:37.200 points on there. No one's going to remember that, 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.059 are they? So pulling those emotional levers in 00:29:41.059 --> 00:29:44.380 order to create, like I said, these mental structures 00:29:44.380 --> 00:29:48.720 is paramount to anything we do from a marketing 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:53.029 perspective. Now, to help do that from a production 00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:57.029 side, AI can do lots of things. If we're looking 00:29:57.029 --> 00:30:01.890 at making sense of large amounts of data to actually 00:30:01.890 --> 00:30:05.710 look at trends and nuances and find out exactly 00:30:05.710 --> 00:30:09.450 where there are tangible commercial opportunities 00:30:09.450 --> 00:30:13.289 by sorting through data, AI loves that sort of 00:30:13.289 --> 00:30:16.309 stuff, and it does a great job doing it. But 00:30:16.309 --> 00:30:19.759 for some reason, we're trying... AI has become 00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:27.019 a proxy for cheaper and faster rather than better. 00:30:28.819 --> 00:30:33.200 And we should be using it to augment our services 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:36.039 so that we can reach ever greater heights of 00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:39.720 performance rather than a race to the bottom 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:42.960 where we're just trying to do something faster 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:45.579 and cheaper and get ever -decreasing results. 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.319 I don't want to come across as a Luddite here, 00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:52.559 okay? And I can do lots of really cool stuff, 00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:56.119 but we're not pushing it in that direction for 00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:58.039 some reason. We're trying to make it, we're trying 00:30:58.039 --> 00:30:59.859 to put a square peg in a round hole and I don't 00:30:59.859 --> 00:31:03.839 quite know why. Because it's really good at certain 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:07.480 things and it's really crap at other things and 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:09.420 we're just trying to make it do the crap stuff 00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:13.599 rather than make it do the good stuff. It's great 00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:18.970 to be able to look at figuratively, or uh legitimately 00:31:18.970 --> 00:31:21.410 you don't have to stare at a blank page anymore 00:31:21.410 --> 00:31:25.369 right you you can cut you know it's the hardest 00:31:25.369 --> 00:31:27.069 thing in the world is to stare at a blank page 00:31:27.069 --> 00:31:30.049 and think okay where do we go right so from an 00:31:30.049 --> 00:31:33.069 ideation perspective having a stick in the ground 00:31:33.069 --> 00:31:37.289 you know figuratively speaking that we can work 00:31:37.289 --> 00:31:43.029 around um is is fantastic um But we need to remember 00:31:43.029 --> 00:31:45.190 to take into consideration that the conversation 00:31:45.190 --> 00:31:48.269 is taking place based on previous existing ideas. 00:31:48.769 --> 00:31:50.990 So the chance that we could hit something fresh 00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:54.529 and original using AI prompts is infinitesimally 00:31:54.529 --> 00:31:58.849 small. Okay? So I think it'll fuel more mediocre 00:31:58.849 --> 00:32:03.650 work because if you're using AI to create, you're 00:32:03.650 --> 00:32:05.609 just combining ideas from what's already there. 00:32:05.809 --> 00:32:09.470 Okay? So until AI has emotional intelligence, 00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:12.160 It's incapable of creating something on its own. 00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:20.400 It's a curator, okay? Not a creator, okay? So 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.700 all of that boring, non -creative, repetitive 00:32:22.700 --> 00:32:25.180 stuff should definitely be thrown at AI, okay? 00:32:25.539 --> 00:32:27.759 Most of the performance marketing stuff, the 00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:31.640 pragmatic style ads, banner ads, A -B testing. 00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:34.819 Rationality -based copywriting, you know, things 00:32:34.819 --> 00:32:37.279 like features and colors and availability and 00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:39.720 all that stuff. All the basic, what I call grunt 00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:42.720 work, you know, the test and learn work, the 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.940 stuff we used to give to interns. AI can do all 00:32:45.940 --> 00:32:47.720 of that stuff and it can do it far better than 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:50.579 a human being. Where it gets interesting is where 00:32:50.579 --> 00:32:53.839 it can do things that humans either can't do 00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:56.980 quickly or can't do at all. So like I said, gathering 00:32:56.980 --> 00:33:00.380 data, working with what -if models around that 00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:03.519 data. You know, link all the moving parts together 00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:06.279 and help us with strategic planning. You know, 00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:10.039 for example, the ability to gather what we call 00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:14.740 in marketing category entry points, okay? Basically, 00:33:14.859 --> 00:33:17.960 to create more detailed market segmentation, 00:33:18.099 --> 00:33:21.539 identify the optimum positioning strategy, build 00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:25.759 funnels, work out the best leverage points, recommend 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:28.200 new product development ideas, that sort of stuff. 00:33:28.619 --> 00:33:31.359 And then... You can imagine taking all of those 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:34.180 things together that have been created virtually 00:33:34.180 --> 00:33:37.319 instantaneously and having them all speak to 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:41.240 each other to identify the optimum strategy for 00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:45.240 our business in the next 6, 12, 24, 36 months. 00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:48.960 And we can run a gazillion scenarios where we 00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:52.559 can change variables, objectives, pricing, distribution, 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:56.599 ad spend, whatever, and model those possibilities 00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:58.950 and work out the best one and review it. every 00:33:58.950 --> 00:34:02.809 year, month, every day, if you want, you know? 00:34:02.950 --> 00:34:06.170 So AI can connect the dots and spot trends and 00:34:06.170 --> 00:34:09.190 augment what marketing teams are already doing, 00:34:09.289 --> 00:34:13.469 creating private GPTs around our own particular 00:34:13.469 --> 00:34:16.269 business, our own particular market, all of that 00:34:16.269 --> 00:34:18.510 customer -facing messaging that our businesses 00:34:18.510 --> 00:34:21.110 have created, our financials, our reporting, 00:34:21.309 --> 00:34:25.449 our research, our presentations, everything. 00:34:25.789 --> 00:34:29.110 It's like your second brain. to help you anticipate 00:34:29.110 --> 00:34:33.250 trends and that sort of thing. But for creative 00:34:33.250 --> 00:34:38.070 execution, for the principles of behavioral optimization, 00:34:39.230 --> 00:34:45.070 AI sucks. It's not even close to being there. 00:34:45.989 --> 00:34:49.070 But all of this stuff I've just said, it excels 00:34:49.070 --> 00:34:51.449 at. And we should be doing much more of that. 00:34:51.610 --> 00:34:53.889 And that's really where the opportunity exists 00:34:53.889 --> 00:34:56.170 within the marketing and advertising sphere. 00:34:56.909 --> 00:35:01.250 So what is your next milestone? I've been teaching 00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:04.110 for a long time. I'm a visiting professor, so 00:35:04.110 --> 00:35:06.769 a part -timer. At the end of last year, I was 00:35:06.769 --> 00:35:11.389 invited to speak at a conference in Copenhagen 00:35:11.389 --> 00:35:14.090 in Denmark. And I hadn't done any public speaking 00:35:14.090 --> 00:35:17.050 for a long time, excusing the stuff I'm doing 00:35:17.050 --> 00:35:19.050 at university because it's not really public 00:35:19.050 --> 00:35:21.809 speaking in the same way, right? And I got a 00:35:21.809 --> 00:35:25.429 really good feedback. The organizers were blown 00:35:25.429 --> 00:35:29.300 off. blown off their chairs. They weren't expecting 00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:33.880 as positive a feedback as they got. And I've 00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:36.400 heard this over the years, but I've never taken 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.280 it very seriously. But I'm actually going to 00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:44.760 give a good go in seeing whether I can secure 00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:48.440 more public speaking opportunities, because people 00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:51.599 who know about these things and are looking at 00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:54.110 it a lot more. objectively and pragmatically, 00:35:54.210 --> 00:35:55.969 which I can't because I'm looking at everything 00:35:55.969 --> 00:35:58.590 from an inch from my nose, right? Think that 00:35:58.590 --> 00:36:02.929 I can actually command some kind of presence 00:36:02.929 --> 00:36:07.289 within a room. That's my next mountain to climb, 00:36:07.389 --> 00:36:09.989 to see whether I've actually got what it takes. 00:36:10.150 --> 00:36:11.650 But that's what I'm going to give a go anyway. 00:36:11.969 --> 00:36:16.469 But I think you got this. That's very kind. So 00:36:16.469 --> 00:36:18.849 thank you very much for joining me today, G. 00:36:19.389 --> 00:36:21.849 I had a great time. I was delighted. It was a 00:36:21.849 --> 00:36:25.809 wonderful time. I hope you and I hope your audience 00:36:25.809 --> 00:36:29.809 will enjoy our discussion today. And I will leave 00:36:29.809 --> 00:36:33.610 all of your contact information in the notes 00:36:33.610 --> 00:36:36.730 so that anyone that wants to reach out to you 00:36:36.730 --> 00:36:41.449 or learn more about Kixino or perhaps your future 00:36:41.449 --> 00:36:46.590 speaking engagements can do so by looking in 00:36:46.590 --> 00:36:49.750 the show notes. Thank you all for tuning in to 00:36:49.750 --> 00:36:52.750 another episode of Milestone Moments in Business 00:36:52.750 --> 00:36:54.909 and Leadership. Until next time.