Good morning, good afternoon and good evening everybody.
And welcome to today's episode
of the NeverPeak Project Podcast.
I'm your host, Coach Ranger.
And in today's episode,
we are welcoming another fantastic guest to the podcast.
And it's really just continuing on the series
that Arkansas had some of the best people from my walk.
That's not a judgment against any other state.
It's just the fact that I have had more people
from Arkansas than really any other state on the podcast.
I think California would be the close second
only because I live here.
As I kind of mentioned before in my interview last time
with Ty King from the Arkansas Podcast Collaborative,
when I was walking from the border
all the way into Little Rock,
I was very concerned about that space
from Mississippi and Arkansas over to around Little Rock area
just because there was nothing in between.
Then I later found out quickly
that there is a lot in between
and that a lot is fantastic people.
And thankfully that carried on into my time
actually in Little Rock, Arkansas.
If you have been following the podcast for a while
or you just kind of want to scroll back in the audio feed,
I did an interview with a woman named Ashley
from the Venture Center about what the Venture Center does,
their economic and entrepreneurship support
for small businesses in the area.
While I was there,
I got to meet a few other people of the team,
got to kind of know some folks,
shake some hands, kiss some babies.
And one of the people I talked to while I was there,
I think she followed me or I followed her on socials.
And I kind of just kept up with her journey
as I was finishing up mine.
After I finished the walk,
I was in Greece with my fiance and her family.
I was scrolling through Instagram,
just kind of checking out what everybody was doing.
I saw something very interesting,
which was a workshop series,
which was literary or artistic analysis of Taylor Swift
compared to other cultural phenomena,
other art, music, movies, et cetera.
And I thought that that was insane.
So I looked at it a little bit more
and I realized it was the gal that I had followed
from the Venture Center in Arkansas.
So kind of piecing everything back together,
looking at everything she was doing,
I realized that she is way more than just a Swiftie.
That is what we're gonna talk a little bit about today
is the powerhouse of community,
of networking, of just really building a personal brand
that's come with that.
I view her.
So that is why today I am so excited
to introduce our guest, Victoria Kaepke.
Ranger, I am so honored
and I truly have no idea how to even speak
or like follow that introduction.
I'm feeling really, really good.
You really kind of like boasted me up
and I'm super excited to talk to you today.
Thank you so much for wanting me on.
And yeah, I was super impressed after I met you
when you did stop at the Venture Center
and stoked that you reached out
to wanna carry on the conversation
and just get to know you a little more.
I guess you're getting to know me, but it works both ways.
Awesome, Victoria.
I super appreciate you taking the time to again,
get to know me, me to get to know you
and my audience get to kind of learn from you
and you get to kind of share your magic with our listeners.
But could you just kind of share a little bit
about your journey, who you are,
a little bit of what we talked about in the pre-show,
just to kind of give our listeners an idea of who you are
and why they should continue to listen.
Yeah, a loaded question.
Like you said, a Swifty, yes,
but a lot of other things on top of that.
So as you mentioned, I currently live in Little Rock, Arkansas.
I'm actually from the Atlanta, Georgia area.
And I moved around a bit from Georgia to Minnesota,
down to Arkansas, out to Los Angeles.
So I was in your neck of the woods in California
and back out to Arkansas, actually, believe it or not.
I know not many people choose to go back to Arkansas
once they were there, but I did.
Because of the community I fell in love with here,
we can talk about that a little bit later,
because it sounds like you had a similar experience.
But my background is in journalism.
I used to be a news anchor and reporter,
and that's kind of what took me around the country
to a few different areas.
And I love that, I love storytelling.
I grew up in the arts and in theater,
and I was able to really kind of carry that passion
over into journalism and into storytelling.
Through that avenue, I was able to explore
a couple of different things that I found out I enjoyed,
such as social media.
I was able to find a really big community
I was able to connect with on social media,
because I started posting about my journey as a news anchor
and how I was queer and how I am queer
and what that experience of being a news anchor
in the South and being an openly queer person was like.
I was able to meet so many amazing people because of that.
And I sort of let that journey carry me
into a new chapter of my life, post-news.
I ended up doing a little bit of backpacking around Europe,
kind of finding more of my queer identity
and who I was in my 20s.
I let it carry me over to USC in Los Angeles.
I pursued a master in arts journalism
so I could do more storytelling in art analysis
and in culture and getting to know different cultures
and figuring out how to raise their voices up.
And then I let it bring me back to Arkansas
where I'm actually now living with my fiance
and doing a bunch of really cool things,
such as the literary crossover analysis class
and art analysis class that you mentioned
with Taylor Swift's music,
a super exciting community I've been able to create there
and other things like creating hairpins,
which is a pop-up for queer and lesbian women in Arkansas.
The venture center, of course,
getting to work with entrepreneurs
and very passionate people is something
that drives my passions and the things
that I'm hoping to do with my life.
And now I'm just rambling at this point.
So there's so many avenues we could take.
Please pick one of them and tell me
which direction to go, I'm begging you.
Yeah, of course.
And I think that giving us that bird's eye view
of so many different aspects of who you are,
again, what I've noticed is so interesting
is how easy it is for people to just hook
onto one or two pieces of our identity.
And that's how they kind of know us.
Like when I was in college,
the people in the fraternity knew me as Ranger,
the kind of go happy, lucky, I don't know,
struggles in school but has a good time, right?
And then in my Toastmasters group,
they knew me as the little ag and farm boy.
And all these different pieces of our identity
that kind of are just small pieces
but really add up to the overall whole.
And I think the one that I'm interested in
to kind of start us off on is the way
that I kind of might see like a piece of you
and a piece of me might be similar.
And it's that aspect of kind of like
that travel around the US aspects.
So when you say that you were able to kind of
jump all over the place and see different,
I don't know, was it specifically for reporting on the news
and seeing what was going on in different areas
or what was the drive for that travel specifically?
Totally, I mean, I was born and raised.
I did undergrad in Georgia.
And pretty much after I finished college,
I knew I wanted to go work elsewhere.
And so I am so lucky that I was one of the few
that was able to land a reporting job
straight out of undergrad.
And it took me just five weeks later from graduation
up to Duluth, Minnesota.
So right there on Lake Superior,
which was a total life change, a culture change,
a climatic change, you can imagine,
from the South to the almost Canadian North.
So that was some cold days and cold winters I had there.
And so I was able to kind of do work there
with the station I was at at the time.
And then coming down to Arkansas was also driven
by being offered a position at the station
I worked at here in Little Rock, KATV.
So I did two years here.
Going out to Los Angeles was driven by my master's program.
So kind of still journalism, right?
I wanted to follow the art scene in Los Angeles
and get that arts and culture writing experience
in a place that was thriving with arts and culture.
And then finally, I was not driven by journalism
when I came back to Arkansas.
I was driven by love, which is so different
and such a cliche, but it's true.
And I'm here and I've had a lot of really cool experiences
because of it.
So a lot of just jumping around to different stations
and following the opportunities is what I would say
moved me around the United States.
Gotcha. How interesting.
I think that's really fascinating.
I think that being able to kind of jump around
to very different, like microclimates or microcultures,
but in such different areas.
Because on my walk, I felt like I was,
I could kind of see the evolution of culture over time.
And I think if I really sat down and wrote it out,
I'd be able to see that more clearly.
But like being in the US South for the most part,
for a vast majority of my walk
until I got to like New Mexico, Arizona area,
like it was relatively the same.
So I'm just curious when you were kind of traveling around,
did you notice any differences or similarities
between the people and the cultures?
And how did that affect you?
Definitely.
Yeah, I guess I would have to say
the most experience I had with that would be
between Arkansas and my time in Los Angeles.
My time in Minnesota, I think was kind of clouded
by first big girl job.
It was very, very based in the work I was doing there
because I was all in, you know, in your first job too,
you kind of have to hustle, right?
Like, I don't know if you know this,
but reporters when they start out make very low money.
So I was out there, I was hustling,
I was working a second job.
And so because of that,
I don't think I got to connect with that community
as much as I wish I could have.
I dream of going back to Duluth, Minnesota
every single day, again, a different conversation.
But at least the communities and the cultures
that I met in Arkansas and in California
were so vastly different.
Arkansas, I call home to truly my queer community
and the first community that made me feel confident
in being myself, which I feel like might shock a lot
of people because I feel like you think Arkansas,
you think the South,
you're not immediately going to think LGBTQ friendly.
And I didn't either.
That was until I really got to start meeting the people
behind the community here, behind the label.
And I figured out some of the queer history
based in Arkansas.
And I got involved with the drag scene
and then meeting a lot of the drag performers
around the state, going as far as being able to judge
the Miss Gay America Arkansas pageant, which was so cool.
I was able to really kind of see the extent
of the community in Arkansas as more than a stereotype
and really got to feel what I think
was true Southern hospitality,
more than what I experienced being in Georgia.
Even though Georgia is technically more far South,
I think because I was Atlanta adjacent,
it sort of had that big city vibe to it at times, right?
Because Atlanta is always the city I hear
as being on the up and up.
So that was what stood out about the Arkansas
and Little Rock community.
It truly embraced me with open arms.
And that's part of the reason that being back
has felt so much like really coming home.
Los Angeles and California, also kind of a unique
and different experience.
So I was out there for a 10 month master's program,
which is insane.
It basically took two years of a program
smashed into 10 months.
So you can imagine how crazy busy I was out there.
And then going to, yeah, I know, same.
I look back and I'm like, I don't know how I survived,
but I did it.
Yeah, so that was a wild time, Ranger.
But kind of being at USC too,
I struggled a little bit with the microcosmic community
that I was around at USC.
I'll throw it out there.
People call it the University of Spoiled Children,
and they don't call it that for no reason.
That to say, there were some really awesome people there.
I met one of my absolute best friends there, Grace Murray.
She's literally gonna be a bridesmaid in my wedding.
And she is truly like, yeah, anyways,
I could gush about Grace all day long,
but it's any community you're going to find
the good ones too.
So when I was able to break off of USC's campus,
not saying that everyone there was what they,
not saying everyone there had their noses up,
but when I was able to break off of USC's campus
and really meet the communities of people
who they're not going out to the clubs every single weekend
and spending tons of cash,
but they're having variety shows in alleyways
and in their backyards.
And they're bringing together groups of people.
That experience to me was different in the sense
that I had only experienced community building
like that in a Southern way.
So getting to see that those types of people
existed in California and had to almost fight more for it
in such a hustling, bustling, down to the grind place,
I really appreciated it.
And I really appreciate those people.
And I still am in contact with a lot of those people as well.
So those were kind of the standout experiences
from those communities.
So yeah, just really being able to see that the,
what is it, like the culture is so different,
but there's so many, like, there's a lot of parallels
in between each section it sounds like,
or at least in your experience of those cultures.
Yeah, it was super cool to really see any place you go,
whether it is the North, South, it is Los Angeles,
it is New York and those hustling, bustling cities.
At the end of the day, we're all looking for community
and to see that those kinds of people
who build up those microcosms and those groups
exist everywhere.
I don't know, it's just something that really makes you
appreciate the people you meet in every corner
of the country and really every corner of the world.
Yeah, no, that's so interesting.
I know a big part of what I wanna talk to you today about
was specifically around community and creating those spaces
where people do feel welcome or as though they're part
of a unit of a tribe, community, club,
whatever you wanna call it.
So when it comes to building up the community
for those that are part of the LGBTQ community,
how did you take those lessons from these different parts
of the US and bring it into Little Rock?
Because it sounds like it was fairly strong already,
but how have you kind of added to that strength?
Definitely a good question.
So it's so funny because I mentioned in my little
introduction, Hairpins is this kind of pop-up bar night
that my fiance and I created specifically for lesbians
and queers, but of course that's also open to transgender
and non-binary individuals.
Really we're trying to expand a space specifically
for queer, non-men.
And as open as I found the queer community in Little Rock,
the trend that I've noticed around the country
is that queer spaces are still generally geared
towards gay men.
And that's wonderful that we have those spaces.
I think there's some statistic that's like
around the United States, there's some 800 plus gay bars
that although the term gay opens up a lot of the community,
still technically gay is centered towards gay men.
And there are, I think now 32 lesbian bars
in the entire country.
So when I actually went out to Los Angeles,
I was so excited to be around this huge
and what I thought was this dynamic
and hustling bustling queer community.
One of the very first, I think if not the first article
that I wrote and published in LA was called
Looking for Lesbians Me Too.
And it's because there were no lesbian centered bars.
I couldn't find queer women literally anywhere,
especially I tested the dating scene
for like one month out there, never again.
My God, throw me to the wolves next time.
The LA queer dating scene is power to you
if you're able to handle that one.
But I really struggled to find a queer women's community.
And so that title was actually inspired by an art exhibit
that I went to that was called Looking for Lesbians.
And my goodness, I wish I could remember the artist's name.
I know that she's referenced in the article
that I'm talking about that I wrote here,
but yeah, it was essentially that
and how specifically West Hollywood is known to be
one of the kind of queer meccas of the United States.
And it just doesn't extend to queer women.
So in the entirety of my time being out there,
I learned that the last lesbian bar in Los Angeles
actually closed in 2013.
So that would be 11 years ago now.
And in the time that I was out there,
they ended up opening not one, but two lesbian bars,
which was actually a really cool experience.
They opened one called the Ruby Fruit
and they opened one called Honey's,
which is actually geared towards non-men specifically as well.
But it really just kind of opened my eyes
to even in places like Los Angeles
that are meant to be these dynamic queer hubs,
that doesn't necessarily extend to queer women.
That doesn't mean that the queer women don't exist.
It just means that there weren't spaces for them to gather
and get together and find community.
So I come back to Arkansas in May of 2023
and I know that one of my priorities
is finding a queer community,
specifically a queer women's community.
I know that that's something
that's going to be really important for me out here,
especially moving in with my partner at the time,
now fiance, it's something we really wanted to find.
So this is kind of a, I promise,
there's a point to the story.
A couple of months later,
we ended up going up to New York City
and we visit Cubby Hole for the first time,
which is an iconic lesbian bar up there.
And what we find iconic about it
is that it's just a dive bar.
It's not lasers, it's not techno music, it's not clubbing.
Not that those things aren't wonderful.
Trust me, there's a time and place
and I love that experience,
but it's literally you walk in, it is crowded,
door to window, wall to wall.
And it is just a dirty little dive bar
that queer women get to go to and experience
and meet people and find community.
And it was when we were standing in that bar
that we said, this is what we need.
This is the thing that we're missing
specifically in Little Rock.
So we were up in New York City and we were like,
how do we make this happen?
Obviously we're not gonna open a lesbian bar right now.
So let's just start thinking through the dive bars
that we have.
And we thought of our favorite one here.
It's called Whitewater Tavern.
It opened in the 1970s.
It's actually like a very small kind of famous music venue
through Little Rock.
And we love the people there.
We love the ownership.
Matt White is the kind of events coordinator there.
He's been a great guy and we knew him socially
a little bit at that point.
And so we said, what if we had some sort of pop-up
at Whitewater Tavern that was for queer women?
So it's a community space for queer women.
It has the dive bar vibe.
It's not as intensive as opening a bar.
And we knew that that was what we wanted to do.
So we made shit happen and four months later,
Matt was like, let's do it.
Let's do it.
We had no idea what the first one was gonna be like.
And we have sold out every hairpins event since then.
That's what we ended up calling it, hairpins.
And every single time we leave,
Matt is looking at us and shakes our hand
and he's just like, we have never had a presence
like this in Whitewater Tavern,
nor have I seen a presence of queer women like this
in Little Rock for as long as he's lived here.
And it's been a really, really humbling experience.
To get to see that grow.
And we're just continuing to grow it
and see how it kind of morphs, I guess, as long as we're here.
Gotcha. That's so interesting.
I love the whole idea of seeing an issue,
seeing where somebody else has done something similar
and putting your own spin on it to create something
that is so needed and required and important.
And I guess my question for you on that one is,
why did you decide that it was your and your fiance's
responsibility or something you wanted to take on
to do this as opposed to waiting for someone else
or waiting for something else to happen that was similar?
That's a really good question.
I also ask us that,
why did we feel the need that we had to do this?
We joke all the time about it,
we want our cups filled, so we just fill it ourselves.
Selfishly, it's because we wanted it, right?
Like we wanted to connect with this community.
So we kind of, we saw occasionally things here and there
that we're trying to bring together
queer women in the community.
But my fiance, Whitney and I were very ambitious.
Sometimes we were very ambitious.
We're very ambitious, sometimes a little ambitious
for our own good.
And so I think it was just like one of those,
let's use our powers for good, right?
Like let's try and do something fun
with this ability we have.
I sometimes don't give myself enough credit
for being what a lot of people refer to
as an ultra connector.
Like I am the person who's like,
oh, you wanna make this thing happen?
Let me connect you to this person who can either
connect you to someone else
or who can make that thing happen.
And in this instance, I used that power for us
in talking to who I knew and wanting to make this go
and happen.
And we both have backgrounds in marketing,
so we figured how hard can it be to start an Instagram page
and go follow every person we know
and make graphics ourselves
and do the marketing for it ourselves.
And yeah, all these different things.
So that's why us, I think that we just had a lot of energy
and a lot of power stored up in us.
And we said, let's kind of use this in a selfish way.
That's actually not selfish
because it's going to be a really good thing
for a lot of other queer individuals.
Yeah, that's something that,
the last little part that you said,
it reminded me of something, what is it?
I use a term a lot called vaguely specific
where you, like for a niche for coaching
or for your business,
like a mission statement should be vaguely specific.
Like just vague enough
that people can bring their own meaning to it,
but just specific enough that you get them to kind of think
within certain bounds.
And what that makes me think of when you say kind of,
we made this for ourselves,
but it's good for the community and others
is like selfishly altruistic.
Like there's such a piece of you that's tied into it
that you want this for yourself,
others can benefit from it.
And I'm so glad that you defined
what you meant by your superpower
because that was, as you were saying it,
I was like, what do you mean by your superpowers?
What is your power?
And I think that that aspect of being a super connector,
it's like that's the bucket, right?
Like, I feel like when I think of terms
like super connector or like personable,
like there's other sub skills that go in there.
So like I'm here, I have my own definition
of what could probably go in this bucket,
but for you, like what skills lead to this like superpower?
Does that make sense?
I think so.
Oh man, I have a list I've recently done for my therapist
who actually asked me to write down what my strengths are.
So I wish I could access that list, but it's fine.
What are some of the things that I think go into
being a super connector?
It helps that I am a fairly extroverted person, right?
I don't meet a stranger.
Now that doesn't mean that perhaps I'm ambiverted, right?
I do need some recharge time sometimes, don't get me wrong,
but I don't go anywhere without making a friend
or at least striking up a conversation with someone.
Seriously, any room I walk in,
and if that one other entity in the room is a rock,
I'll be damned, I'll be friends with that rock
by the end of that visit.
So I think that that goes into being a super connector,
but I think one of the things that kind of help fill
that specific trait is the fact that I
can't bear the idea of someone
not feeling included in a space.
And I think that that might come from the fact
that I was ousted a lot when I was younger.
I, without having to get into details, unless you want to,
I was kicked out of my house when I was younger.
So I was physically ousted when I was in high school.
And I was also socially ousted in a lot of situations.
I mean, I was a theater kid, I was an AP kid.
So there were a lot of social reasons
that I was ousted growing up.
I was slightly overweight, so I was ousted for that
because in the 2000s, that's what kids did,
was make fun of you if you didn't fit
a very specific mold of appearances.
And so wanting to include people
is something that has been a passion of mine,
I think especially since starting in journalism.
They always talk about how journalists' responsibility
is to help the voiceless be heard
or raise the voice of those who don't have a voice.
And to me, that's kind of the same thing.
I want to make sure people feel heard.
I want to make sure people feel included.
And it's because a lot of times,
I don't think I felt that way growing up.
So being a super connector, I think what I'm just trying to do
is make sure people know that there is a place
where they can plug in.
And a specific example of this regarding hairpins,
this queer women's pop-up, is when I was out in Los Angeles,
I made a very good friend.
And she came out while I was out there, later in life.
So she was 29 at the time that she realized that she was queer.
And she was really struggling to find a queer community
outside of her friendship with me.
So when I moved back to Arkansas,
it was really difficult for the both of us.
Actually, this past September, when my fiance and I
hosted a hairpins event here in Arkansas, I told this friend,
I said, hey, do you want to come out to hairpins in Arkansas?
I will buy your plane ticket.
I want to fly you out here.
And I want you to see that a queer community exists.
It exists for you.
It might be in Arkansas.
It might be 1,000, 2,000 miles away.
But I want you to know that this community exists.
You are going to find it.
You do belong here.
And it's always waiting for you whenever
you want to reach out to it.
So that is kind of what plays into the super connector
sort of superpower.
Did that even answer your question?
I just went off on a tangent.
No, I think it was a vaguely on task tangent.
I think that was fantastic.
See, I love those, like, the big small, right?
Like, that's kind of what it is, right?
Almost like the dichotomy.
How do I say this?
There's something that Alex Hermosy says.
And it's not a decision to be made.
It's like a dichotomy to be managed.
Like, not so much as it's black or white,
but it's on a spectrum of whatever it is typically,
right?
Which maybe that is a tangent in and of itself.
But what I wanted to say was the things that came up for me
as you were saying that were very mission or impact driven,
that you really want to be of service to others.
And that's what I super love about this podcast
is that that's something that is so prevalent.
And I think that when I was doing my walk was
it was prevalent everywhere.
And I just love seeing how that basic drive to be a support
or to bring in community for others,
whether it's through Western apparel from charity,
the gal I had on a New Mexico, or when I stayed with Burton
in South Carolina and what he was doing with Saluda Now.
It's just something that is so specific all
across the country.
And I guess what kind of surprises me is,
which maybe this can kind of start leading into the T-Swift
conversation almost, is that a lot of things
are very male centric.
And I guess I never realized.
Like, I hear gay bar and I think LGBTQ.
Maybe that's just because I went to UC Davis
and I have seen a lot more than most people have.
But I never really would have thought
that the gay gals needed their own space.
I would have thought that they would just go to the gay bar.
So I think that's so interesting that there's
so much more to it than just this.
It's like, I don't want to say.
You guys are in that same category,
but almost like the subcategory.
I feel like I'm just rambling and trying
to wrap my head around it.
How does that resonate?
What am I saying in your words?
No, I hear you.
And I love that this is kind of an epiphany that you're having
because I think this is a conversation now that I do
think we need to be having.
And it's the conversation of intersectionality, right?
Like, intersectionality and every aspect of the word
is so important.
And it's because not one single group is a monolith, right?
Like, LGBTQ is LGBTQ for a reason.
It doesn't just mean gay.
It means lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer,
and then, of course, our other labels
that we have as well within that.
It is something that exists when we talk about talking
about women.
Women are straight.
Women are gay.
Women are wise.
Women are mothers.
Women are widows.
Women are Black.
Women are Asian.
Women are white.
Women are all these different things.
Women are CEOs.
Women are stay-at-home mothers.
They're all these kinds of different things.
And they don't just fall under woman, right?
Like, they don't just fall under one category.
So I love that this is an epiphany you're having
because I think when it comes to the queer community
specifically, talking about this difference
between gay men's spaces and queer women's spaces
is a conversation we should be having more in.
I see it happening.
I do, because I am seeing kind of queer-specific pop-ups
happen more.
I'm seeing there was something that came out in,
I want to say, 2021 that's called the Lesbian Bar Project.
That's tracking the amount of lesbian bars in the country.
It's the super interesting media project
I suggest you look into.
And that's the only reason I even
know that there are so few lesbian bars in the country.
But yeah, yeah, I think that's kind of what I hear you saying
is you don't really think about those intersection.
And it's because we kind of just smacked one label onto it.
We said gay.
And when we said gay rights, that's
kind of what we gave it all to.
So really realizing that every group has intersections
and intersectionality is something
that we always need to be talking about.
And it's always a great moment when I'm speaking with someone
and they have kind of that epiphany.
So yeah, you're doing great.
I love it.
That's what I like to hear.
When it comes to building that community,
it sounds like that's a lot of the work you're
doing with the LGBTQ plus community in Arkansas
and across the country, which I'll get into in a second.
Because it's not just hairpins.
It's not just the pop up or the lesbian bars.
It sounds like you're also kind of bringing
a lot of other people together through different interests.
And that's another thing that I've noticed is how,
again, everybody has their own specific interests
and these small micro pieces of them.
And for a lot of people, and especially in culture nowadays,
it looks like Taylor Swift is such a huge part of culture.
She's kind of ingrained anywhere.
I mean, for the people I see on the Facebook comments,
what is it, Infiltrating the NFL, which I'd love to see.
Yeah.
I'd love to give my thoughts on that
and hear your thoughts on that.
Oh, boy.
Trust me.
I want to make something very clear.
I've been a Swiftie since day one.
I had the CDs growing up.
I listened to everything, all that kind of fun stuff.
Enough about me.
What you're doing with the Dear Reader Lits,
I watched the last session that you recently had.
You sent me over the Zoom file.
I thought it was incredible.
It was super well put together, very thoughtful.
And like I said, I just thought the whole idea
of comparing her songs to other forms of art
was so interesting.
Because I feel like a lot of times,
we kind of just listen to music, and we don't really
think more beyond the beat, the rhythm.
Sometimes lyrics resonate with us.
Sometimes they don't.
But what was your driving force between putting
that specific project together, like the genesis of it?
Like how did you, again, I feel like I'm rambling
because I'm excited.
But like how did you even come up with the whole idea
to do something as like intricate, specific, and kind
of maybe silly, or interesting as Dear Reader Lit?
It is all of those things, Ranger.
Yeah, so to kind of clear up what it is,
Dear Reader is a cross analysis of Taylor Swift's music
through different art forms.
And it started as a literary analysis.
So comparing Taylor Swift's music to classic literature,
like The Great Gatsby, like Romeo and Juliet,
like To Kill a Mockingbird.
And then this past session that I did with it
was comparing her music and lyrics and visuals
to actually different films.
And my hope and dream is to continue this kind of art
analysis through her lyrics in many different forms
in many different ways.
But literature and film is kind of the life
it's taken right now.
And the way it started was truly a connection to her lyrics.
So I remember, so Taylor Swift is
on this journey of re-releasing her first six albums
Under the Rouge of Taylor's version.
And in 2021, Red, which is her fourth studio album,
Red, Taylor's version actually was released.
And one of the more popular songs from that album
is All Too Well, specifically the 10 minute version.
So it's this beautifully and lyrically raw song
that has always been a fan favorite.
And the 10 minute version was no exception.
The day that that song came out, specifically that evening
when the All Too Well short film or music video came out
to coincide with it, I remember sitting in my apartment.
I ordered a pizza.
I bought a bottle of wine.
I sat in the complete dark.
I watched that music video.
And then in a very dramatic way, I may say,
for three hours straight, I listened to that song on loop.
And I just internalized the lyrics.
I cried.
I definitely drank that whole bottle of wine.
So that wasn't helping the kind of dramatics of it all.
But I was listening to that song.
And there was one specific lyric from the song, which was,
I kept you like a secret.
Or excuse me, you kept me like a secret,
but I kept you like an oath.
And I internalized that specific lyric so intensely.
Because I was relating to it in a way
that I wish I didn't have to.
I was relating to it in the sense
that I remember the first woman that I ever dated was closeted.
And so we had a relationship that I
was feeling very much like that lyric.
I had taken an oath to her.
I was being the partner that I thought
that she wanted and needed, but I had to be kept a secret.
So that was a lyric that really hit home for me.
And I related to it in that way.
I don't know why Taylor wrote the lyric.
I'm not saying at all that that's why she wrote the lyric.
But that's what I resonated with when I listened to that song.
And I think the cultural phenomenon that is Taylor
Swift is that her lyrics are so incredibly specific,
and yet somehow so universally relatable.
Because we all take bits and pieces of her songs,
and we find ourselves in them.
That's what we love about her music so much,
is that we can see ourselves in her lyrics.
And so I was kind of thinking through that.
And during my master's program, I
told you I did this whole program based on art analysis.
I actually had this wonderful opportunity
to deep dive into her Midnight's album, which came out
during my fall semester of my master's program.
And so for one of my articles that I published,
I ended up diving into her lyrics on the Midnight's album.
And what stuck out to me was a concept
that I was able to pull from Oscar Wilde's 1800s farcical
play, The Importance of Being Earnest.
I know.
How did we just jump from All Too Well to Oscar Wilde?
It's because that's literally how my brain works.
I'm a crazy person, right?
So I grew up a theater kid, right?
So I absolutely love this play.
And the idea that I'm pulling out from Oscar Wilde's
The Importance of Being Earnest is basically this concept
of living a double life.
It's called bun burying.
I'm trying not to get too technical with you here.
But this idea of living a double life
is something that I saw and heard
come to fruition in one of Taylor's songs,
specifically Antihero.
So anyways, I write about that in the article.
And I talk about the experience.
I interview people who are having
their own internalized interpretations of her music.
And all of that in combination with these kind of deep dive
conversations that I'm able to have with my fiance, who's
also a huge Swiftie, who also analyzes and interprets
and internalizes her lyrics like I do.
I mean, we were able to sit down in the hallway
with whiteboards, literally like crazy people.
I'm not even going to lie.
And just connect different things in her songs
that we were like, oh my god.
This is something that we saw in our ninth grade literature
class growing up.
We saw this concept play out in Romeo and Juliet.
We saw this concept play out in To Kill a Mockingbird.
This is a coming of age story.
That's what these things are.
And so fast forward to probably a year later.
I'm now living in Arkansas.
And the actual, actual, actual genesis of the class
was a road trip to and fro New Orleans from Little Rock.
And there are long stretches where we don't have any cell
service, so we're forced to talk to each other like real people.
And my fiance and I are like, what do we
do with all of this information that we're just
talking about all the time?
What do we do with all these things that
are swimming around in our head and the weirdly long documents
of notes that I have in my Google Drive?
And we were like, let's do a class.
Let's teach people.
You don't have any experience teaching Victoria,
but you can talk to people.
So you can definitely teach.
And I said, as confidently as ever, yes, I totally can.
On the inside, she was not confident, ladies
and gentlemen, but I ran with it.
And I pitched the idea to a local bookstore.
They loved it.
And on actually December 13, which is exactly a year ago,
today that we're recording this, Ranger,
we announced the first Dear Reader class.
We announced on Taylor's birthday in 2023
that we would be holding this class.
And it kind of blew up very quickly.
And it's taken a life of its own from there.
I realize that I talk so much.
I'm so sorry.
No, I just realized that today is Taylor Swift's birthday.
Not realize, you just told me.
Yeah.
Which is super cute, because my little sister's birthday
is tomorrow, or her birthday party at least.
And she's having a Taylor Swift themed birthday party.
I made her invite.
Oh my gosh.
I don't want to show it on social media,
because I'm afraid I'll get sued.
But it's like the Arrows Tour poster.
I made it in Canva.
It's super cute.
I love that.
And I didn't realize it, but her little Amazon
wish list is Taylor Swift CDs and pop figures.
And it was super cute.
I was like, oh my god.
Oh my god.
That's so good.
I love it.
And something that came up when you
were talking about her lyrics was, again, my concepts,
hair behind ear, of that vaguely specific,
that they're just vague enough that people can,
anybody can relate, but just specific enough
that it brings up a specific emotion or memory for them.
And my top artist for the year was Mike Posner,
who he walked across the country a few years ago.
And that's what I thought what I loved about one of his albums
that he wrote about walking was, it's called Keep Going.
And it was just being able to see myself
in all of those songs was so interesting.
And there's so many other times and other lyrics
and other songs of his that I can see myself in.
So I think that also does translate
into a lot of Taylor's music.
And when it comes to her lyrics, in terms of enrolling people
into this course, you and your fiance
were able to put this together, take all of this stuff
swimming around in your head, and really create something
unique out of it.
When you were telling people about what
you were trying to do and enrolling them in that vision,
what was that process like?
Yeah, so we owe so much to, especially
for that first class, Paper Hearts Bookstore.
That is the independent bookstore
that we partnered with for that first literature course,
because they were a huge marketing help to us.
My fiance is a brilliant graphic designer,
and so she has graciously created
every graphic, every PowerPoint, literally any visual
that we have put out for this class.
And so we essentially gave Paper Hearts these graphics,
and we said, put these on your channels, please.
We know Swifties, but we don't know how to reach them.
And essentially, we were specifically
trying to reach a bookish community of Swifties,
which going through a bookstore is the perfect opportunity
for that.
So we found all these people who followed the Paper
Hearts page who jumped on board, because they
happened to be Swifties as well.
And so that is a big part of how we were
able to reach them in the beginning.
There are other things as well.
It helps that I have a journalist background,
because because of that, I know how
to make media appearances and media connections.
So I was able to go on a few talk shows here in Little Rock.
I was able to get a few coverage kind of articles
from different entities here in Arkansas.
The coolest experience, though, is
that some of these opportunities started finding us.
And the class kind of took on this sort of life of its own,
and there would be conversation about it that would happen
that we had nothing to do with.
For example, this class is actually
being turned into a book that is coming out in September of 2025.
And the reason that even happened
is because one of the articles got
published in a Reader's Weekly newsletter
that my now agent found in a random email newsletter.
And so that is kind of an example of the ripple effect
that happened because of all these, again,
cross-sections and intersections of communities
that are reached, the book community, the Swiftie
community, the local communities.
Then, of course, social media is a huge help as well, right?
I have a little bit of this TikTok following,
and so it helped that when Taylor actually
announced the Tortured Poets department
during the sort of onboarding session of this class,
I was able to start making some analyses of what we think
that this album is going to be like
or what we think we're going to see in some of these songs.
And that was able to uptick interest to the point
that our next round of classes in the fall,
we actually didn't just have national students,
we had international students.
So it was an in-person and an online class, by the way.
So in our first round, I think we
had 14 different states represented from students.
And then in our second round, we had a handful of states.
But then, like I said, we also had
a couple of international students as well.
So that was a super cool experience.
Yeah, that's so, I don't know, I'm just reeling.
I just think that's such a unique, cool thing to do.
Bring people in for such a, I feel a lot in coaching
and in business, everybody talks about niching down
and finding your target demographic
and really visualizing who they are.
And that is the niches of niches.
Not only are they in the book or literary analysis,
but also Taylor Swift, also community,
also these different things.
And the video of yours that I watched
that you sent me from your last session of Dear Reader Lit
was basically comparing, oh my gosh, the Truman
show to Taylor Swift and some of her performances
and really just diving into that performance and persona
that she puts on in her shows.
And I want to give away, I guess,
I don't want to give away all your secrets.
I don't know if you're ever going to do the thing again.
Maybe this will be good for enrollment too.
But when it comes to that, it's not just about her.
Like the thing that I got out of that
was kind of reading some of the stories
that you'd posted in your article
and on your web page about Dear Reader Lit
was we see ourselves in film, in art, in literature, in music.
So I guess what I'm curious about
is when it comes to that stage performance
that she's putting on, have you noticed yourself kind
of falling into that performer role
when it comes to Dear Reader Lit or hairpins or anything else?
And how does that play into making these so successful?
Interesting.
Are you kind of, OK, so let me say it back to you
to see if I'm on the same page as you right now.
So you're asking if I am kind of putting on the Taylor Swift
TM charm in my own sort of Victoria way.
Am I being Victoria TM to make these things kind of work?
Is that what you're wondering?
I think you said it a lot clearer than I did, yes.
Because I feel like a lot of times,
Taylor Swift came out earlier as like, we are all so like,
we have so many different aspects of who we are as a person.
And really diving in on these specific aspects
to bring other people into the community
that we want to create.
I think something that I've been thinking about a lot
from the walk is identity and who we see ourselves as.
That concept of, oh, all you have to do is be yourself.
But there's so many different parts of our self.
So I think this is me asking you to give me
clarity for my own self, but also people listening.
But how does being a performer fall into or play a role
in everything that you're doing?
I think that's such a good question.
My goodness, Ranger, you nailed it with that one.
So I am so fascinated by this concept.
And my voice cracked when I said that.
I am so fascinated with this concept.
And again, going back to my grad program,
I actually did some studies specific to performance studies,
which is a lens.
It's kind of a newer sort of academic lens
in which you view the world through performance, pop
culture, and sort of these different kind of, I just,
lenses, I guess.
And so there is this idea with that that every version
of ourselves that we present to different communities
or different audiences at all points of the day
are different performances, right?
Like mini performances.
The way that you act in a work setting.
So the way that I act when I have my badge on at the venture
center, my full time professional job where
I'm working with entrepreneurs, although I'm still
being a version of myself, I am going to be an uplifted version
of myself.
And it's going to be a very different version of myself
than who I am when I'm at hairpins, which is a dive bar
lesbian bar night.
I sure as hell hope that I'm not exactly
acting the same at the venture center
that I am acting at hairpins.
Because you better believe.
I'm dancing the night away when I'm at hairpins.
My god, I sound like I'm 80 when I say that.
But yeah, so this idea of performance
and how it plays into specifically all kind of these,
all of these kinds of different adventures
that I am sort of finding myself on.
Yeah, I definitely do put on, I'm trying to think here.
I definitely play into a role.
I do.
And it's so interesting that you bring attention to that too,
just because when I was working in news,
a part of the reason that I am not a TV reporter and anchor
anymore is because I really struggled with identity.
And I really had to put on a version of myself
every single day that I felt like I wasn't.
I had the perfect blonde bob.
And I had to wear the TV news anchor dresses
that you can visualize, you at home if you're listening.
I know you can picture those perfect little Barbie doll news
anchor dresses.
Nothing wrong with them.
It's just not what I wanted to wear.
I don't know if people can see this now,
but I have very short brown hair.
And I mostly wear men's clothing because I
think it's comfortable and usually cheaper.
And that kind of news anchor look that I fell into
just wasn't me.
It wasn't what I was comfortable with.
And so I struggled with this idea
of having to put on a performance for everyone
and feeling like that hindered who I was
and how I was growing as a 20-something-year-old.
And so for you to point out now that what I'm doing essentially
is this version of different performances of myself
is really interesting.
And I think I might be having a slight existential crisis
because of it.
But it's different because I don't
think it's a bad thing to put on a performance sometimes
in the sense that sometimes when you're not feeling confident,
acting confident makes you confident.
There are studies that show that.
I don't know the study, but there
are studies that show that.
I've heard people say it.
I listened to a podcast myself this morning
that talked about it.
And so yeah, maybe ask a follow-up question to this.
Because now my gears are turning.
And so long answer long, yes, I am performing to an extent of I
have to fill different roles to help build
these different communities, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
And what's coming up for me as you're talking about this,
I'm thinking and to be completely honest,
I've never watched The Truman Show all the way
through in one sitting.
But based off of what I have seen and I haven't seen Forrest
Gump either.
Let me tell you, that one's the worst.
Being compared to him for six months
for the rest of my life also, oh my god.
But what's coming up for me there is in The Truman Show,
he doesn't know he's performing.
He's just being himself.
And I guess why, because a lot of what you said
resonates with me too.
The way that I act with my fiance
is very different than the way I act with her parents.
It's different than the way that I
act when I'm at a networking event, when
I'm with my best friends, when I'm with my little sister.
They're all versions of me.
And I think that I thought of that too,
is that is it inauthentic to change
who you are in these different circumstances?
Or is it just being who I am in different regards?
Like is it performance or are you just being?
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I am hearing you loud and clear.
And I just didn't know we were going
to get this philosophical in our conversation,
but I'm loving it.
I think you're right.
So it's all versions of us.
I still think it's performance because it's
a performance in the sense that you are doing something.
You are acting a certain way in a certain community,
and that doesn't mean that that's inauthentic.
That is what we mean by performance.
We don't mean performance as in putting on a fake character
in a theatrical show.
But it goes back to what I was talking about earlier,
about intersectionality and how we are just not monoliths.
And communities that we are in are not monoliths either.
We as individuals, although we might
have these different kinds of things that we're with,
although you might talk differently with your fiance
than you do with their parents, doesn't
make that version of you or one version of you
versus the other in inauthentic version, to your point.
And it's because we are these dynamic individuals
who have different interests, who are different things.
I see intersections between the hairpins community
that I work with and the Taylor Swift community
that I work with.
I am that intersection.
I quite literally am that intersection.
There are women who I have met in Dear Reader who
have gone to all of the hairpins events.
There are people who I have met at hairpins events
who I've said, hey, if you're still
looking for more community, come to a Taylor Swift class.
And they happen to be mild Taylor Swift fans
and then found an even greater community because of it.
I can think of specific instances
in both kind of directions.
There are people from my reporting days
who I am now working with in hairpins
or who I'm seeing in the hairpins community.
And there are people from my reporting days
who I know are Taylor Swift fans.
And so although you might be performing
as different versions of yourself in all of them,
it all goes back to intersectionality
and how building community is at the end of the day,
whether it's me or whoever is doing it
or whoever is wanting to be a part of it,
is understanding that we're all kind of connected in some way.
Truly, we are all sort of connected in some way.
So yeah, to your point, I think that that's to your point.
I don't have an end to my point.
I think that that kind of is the point, right?
That we are not these single faceted, single layer
creatures, if you want to say that.
I don't know what.
It's not just we are ourselves.
It's like, to what degree are we being ourselves?
Earlier when I said there's that line,
the black and white thinking, and there's
that aspect of there's these gray areas,
it's almost making me think there's the black,
there's the white, there's the A and the B, the 1 and the 2,
the asterisk and the dollar symbol.
There's more degrees of who we are as people or as individuals
than just this one specific aspect.
And I think that we could probably
talk about this for maybe another episode
or maybe bring in performance and identity on another topic.
But just out of respect for your time
and for everything that's going on,
I do have a quick question for you from someone
from our school community.
I got a few other questions from them,
but I think we answered them throughout.
So thank you to everybody that did submit questions.
I appreciate it.
And for those that aren't sure how to submit questions,
the best way to do it are to comment or send me
DMs on the Instagram and Facebook posts that I make.
But the question that I have is around community
and how COVID has affected the arrows tour and also
people's desire to find these in-person communities.
So it's from Elliot from my school community.
And he asked, how did COVID and being in lockdown
affect people's desire for community
and how did that kind of play into the arrows tour slash
potentially Victoria's workshop series?
Lucky for you, Elliot, and everyone out there,
indirectly, my master's thesis work
talked about this directly.
So yeah, I know.
Isn't that a little bit crazy?
So quite literally, I talked about the importance
of storytelling performance and in-person, specifically
in-person performance post-COVID and how we,
as a society, are having this renaissance of a time
right now.
So when the Renaissance era happened originally,
it happened after a plague that basically took out thousands
of people.
And so it happened after this dark period of time
where people were hurting, they were sick, they lost a lot,
and they were really kind of in immensely dark place.
Does that sound familiar?
Yeah, that's what happened during COVID.
And we were so deprived of not only connection
with other people, but we were deprived of art.
We were deprived of creativity.
We were deprived of all the things that we took for granted,
such as getting to experience shows in person.
And if we want to continue connecting it back
to the Taylor Swift of it all, people who had tickets
to her Loverfest at the time, actually,
those shows got canceled.
And we had to stop that from happening.
And so what I specifically talked about in my thesis work
was the power of in-person performance
and how that chemically changes your body.
I spoke to, my goodness, now I can't remember anyone's names,
but it was a professor from UT Austin
who has done work in performance ethnography.
And ethnography is essentially the study of a culture
and of different people by immersion,
by being with a certain culture.
And this performance ethnography piece
was talking about how she experienced a certain culture
that she went and visited and how
she was trying to basically recreate
that culture and that experience through her performance.
And the people who came to that performance,
how that was going to impact the way,
whether they knew it or not, that they would take the bus
to work the next day, for example.
We don't understand that things are happening chemically
in our body when we are surrounding ourselves
with other people or with performance.
And so in the wake of COVID, I think that we all kind of just
understood what was happening when we weren't experiencing it,
when we had that sort of separation.
So now I think that we are ultra aware of what's happening
when we are experiencing it, when
we are having a connection with another person,
whether it is in a large scale community experience,
like the Iris Tour and the Taylor Swift phenomena of it
all, or whether we are just getting
to sit inside of a coffee shop with a group of our friends,
something that many of us were deprived of during that period
of COVID-19.
So I think that we are having such a boom and a need
for community right now because we are experiencing it.
In a Renaissance level of experience, outwardly
and in our body, I guess.
That was, I wasn't expecting that when I wrote down
the question earlier.
That was so insanely detailed and intricate and cool.
And thank you for sharing all of that.
I feel like once I have this recording done,
I'm going to have to re-listen to that over and over
and over again.
And it just reminds me of platforms like school
to begin, just how people gravitate
towards online communities or how we're gravitating
towards these clubs or groups or Dear Reader
lid or hairpins and like that.
That is such a great human need.
And I think that is something I think
I need to ruminate on more myself and maybe journal on
and talk about because now I'm thinking
of all these experiences from the walk
and from what I saw and what I experienced there
and how that transpires and comes together.
That was amazing.
I don't know if this is allowed, but is your thesis,
is that available for people to read
or is that property of the university or something
or do we have to pay to see it?
I think it's available.
I have never personally had anyone ask me
to read my thesis, so thank you.
No, I want to say it's available.
Let me do a little bit of digging
and I will send something over to you.
I definitely have a one single bound printed version of it
that perhaps I could photocopy if I really
wanted to get technical with it.
But let me do some digging and I'll
see if I can send that to you.
It was a really cool experience.
And I would love for more people to talk about it.
Can I ask you a question?
I know that that's not how this works, but I want to.
You're going to flip the script on me
and ask me questions on my own podcast?
Heck yeah, dude, what's up?
Yeah, it's the journalist in me.
She lives on forever.
So we're talking about this idea of creating community
and the physical change that happens in us
when we are surrounding ourselves with people.
So now that you're in the gear of reflecting on your walk
across America, how do you think that that connection
with other people was changed with you physically
walking to their spaces as opposed to getting in a car
and driving to them?
That's such a good question.
I think a lot about it is just tied up in the vulnerability.
I had some form of self-protection,
but at the end of the day, I was just this little flesh
machine walking everywhere.
I didn't have a car to get away fast.
I didn't have anything to escape quickly or camouflage
or hide myself.
So I think that a lot of it was just really tied up
in being so open and vulnerable to everything around me.
And when it comes to, I guess, seeing community,
was just seeing how similar people are all
across the country, whether or not they were strongly
Republican or extremely Democrat,
or they were super straight and never,
I say super straight as if you can have beyond straight.
I don't know.
You know what I mean?
Or that they were in the LGBT community.
Or I think super straight also means
that there's also super gay, which maybe there is.
I don't know.
Hey, it's a scale.
It's a scale.
OK.
But I think that a lot of it was just so tied up
in seeing how, generally speaking, everybody
that I came across with, there is such an innate curiosity
and community within every single person
that people were willing to come up and talk to me.
The people were willing to pull over and check on me
or say that they saw me on the news
or asked me what I was doing, invite me into their homes,
invite me to camp out on their property or offer support
or ask me to take a picture with their kid, which
the first time that that happened,
I was just kind of blown away that they
were willing to trust the joke, the homeless unemployed guy
next to their daughter.
I think a lot of it is just so tied up in that people
are innately good.
And I think that if we had more time
to focus on not just surviving in the day to day,
but have time and space for curiosity,
I think that that really is the key to opening up.
Does that answer your question so far?
Yeah.
No, I love that.
And I think, kind of just to piggyback on that,
it's this experience of having that time and that curiosity.
And opening yourself up to that opportunity,
that is how you find community.
That is how you find connections with other people.
And so I love that that's kind of what
seems to be the experience that you had
and that you're able to share that firsthand now with others.
It's not just the story we're reading about online,
but it's like you are such a personable guy
to be able to actually have that experience
and share that the way you do with others,
I think is really special.
So thank you for what you do.
Because it is super inspiring to what I do as well.
Well, good.
I'm glad that you appreciate that.
And I hope it resonates with others as well.
I think the biggest thing that I've noticed too
is just the importance of sharing your experience.
Something that Gary V says is document, don't create.
And it's just like sharing what you're going through,
sharing what you have gone through.
Because for the walk, if Mark and Andrew
hadn't shared their story, I might not
have realized that I could do it.
And I'm sure there's been plenty of people
that you've inspired by sharing your story of being in the LGBTQ
community in Arkansas as a person trying
to make a difference.
That's inspired plenty of people.
People that you don't even know about that
have never even told you.
I think there's so many different stories and aspects
that we can share with others.
But when it comes to your story, if people
want to continue following along and hear more about what
Victoria has in the future, is there
a list that can be put on for your book?
Or where can they get that in less than a year?
Because I want to sign copy if that's possible, please.
Thanks.
I think I can make that happen for you.
Unfortunately, I don't have a list yet.
Because we're still a little far out for that.
But if you want to follow along, I'm super active on Instagram.
So that's at Victoria A. Capek.
And that's spelled V-I-K-T-O-R-I-A-A-C-A-P-E-K.
I do post on TikTok still.
Same username.
I have a website.
Always feel free to hit me up.
Seriously, do exactly what Ranger did.
And just reach out.
Because I love talking to people, clearly.
And I can talk forever.
So yeah, follow along.
And if you want to learn about the book, stay tuned for that.
More information will be coming out,
hopefully, in the next three months or so.
I love it.
And I'll be sure to share on my socials as well as soon as I
see what is going on.
And I'll probably also put something in my email list
to my subscribers once they come out.
And all these different things, I
can't wait to see what is on the horizon for you
with your fiance, with Dear Reader Lit, hairpins,
and everything else.
So thank you so much.
And for other podcasters listening,
Victoria is such a fantastic guest.
I feel like this was just such a small piece of what she
could have talked about.
So I'm going to share it with people in my podcasting groups
too.
But thank you, Victoria.
And all of her information will be down in the show notes.
And for everybody still listening,
thank you so much for your time and your attention
and for taking a part out of your life
to listen to parts of our life as well.
And just as my constant reminder for everybody,
be sure that you share this with somebody else
that it may resonate with.
That is the best way for us to grow
as a podcast, as a community.
I super appreciate all of your time.
And remember, when it comes to your life,
the best is yet to come as long as you
are willing to make the decision to never peek, never quit,
and never settle.
Thank you, and I'll see you guys next week.