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Hello everyone and welcome to the Within Range Coaching Podcast. I'm Ranger, a certified

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holistic success coach, and in this podcast, I break down the journey entrepreneurs face

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as they start their organizations, overcome roadblocks in their way, and create an impact

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that lasts. We talk with entrepreneurs, nonprofit leaders, and purpose-driven community members

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just like you. Together, we learn how to grow our impact and develop ourselves as the people

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behind the mission. My intention is to help more people, help more people. And remember,

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if you're curious about expanding your impact, growing a community, or defining your mission,

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vision, or values, we can chat off the record. You can find my info in the show notes or at my

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website withinrangecoaching.com. We're also looking to build our sponsor community with

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organizations and individuals who align with our values of fearless innovation, social responsibility,

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and courageous candor. If you're interested in helping us highlight individuals doing great work

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in the world and share these values, reach out to me directly at ranger at withinrangecoaching.com.

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I know you're just as eager to get started as I am, so let's jump right in. Hello everyone and

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welcome to the Within Range Coaching Podcast, where today we will dive deep into the fascinating

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world of animals and conservation. I'm your host, Coach Ranger, and today we're joined by Brett

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Smith, an expert in herpetology, the founder of Sonoran Reptiles, and the reptile specialist

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over at Out of Africa Wildlife Park in Arizona. We'll be discussing the importance of creating

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naturalistic environments for reptiles in zoos and sanctuaries, the challenges of animal welfare,

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and how we can all contribute to making a difference for our scaly, feathered, four-legged,

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or no-legged friends. Whether you're an animal enthusiast or just curious about how we can better

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care for our scaly friends, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss. Let's jump

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right in. All right, Mr. Brett Smith, we are on the podcast. We are going. How are you doing today?

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I'm doing great. Yeah, I'm doing awesome. Awesome. And as folks know, this is still part of my Walk

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Across America series where I'm interviewing folks that have helped me along my route in some way, and

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Brett helped me get through the Campo Verde area to Prescott, Arizona. So thank you again, Brett,

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for all your help and assistance there. Yeah, it was a fun experience picking up some random

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homeless guy off the side of the road. I know. I think that was one of the worst storms that I've

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been caught in. The first day that he picked me up, I got caught in a crazy monsoon, and I have to

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hide in a what was it? Family Dollar, Dollar General. Yeah, I had to hide in a Dollar General

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for like an hour and a half, making friends with the workers until he was able to get off of work

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and come and get me. So that was a fun little experience, you know, not just a homeless,

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unemployed guy, but a soaking wet homeless, unemployed guy. But jumping into the reason why,

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you know, he's not just a savior of the homeless, he is also a savior of reptiles, amphibians,

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and other little cool critters all around Arizona. So, I mean, Brett, you're a vet tech,

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you're the executive director at Sonoran Reptiles. And really, the main thing that we're going to be

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talking about today is your work as the Reptile Department Manager at Out of Africa. Before we

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get specifically into your role at Out of Africa, can you just talk a little bit about your

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background? Like, have you just always been a lizard man? Or is it something relatively new to

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you? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've always been a, you know, an animal and reptile person. I mean, I

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think like, you know, just to repeat everybody else's same exact story, you know, grew up

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watching the crocodile hunter. Same guy who inspired all of us, it seems. You know, going out

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in my backyard in, you know, in the Mojave Desert, I grew up in Bullhead City, which if anyone knows

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anything about that, it's basically just, we have a river and then just desert. So, you know,

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there ain't much to do but go out and look for animals and stuff like that, at least there

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wasn't for me. So yeah, I just grew up catching lizards, playing with snakes and stuff like that.

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And it, you know, as I got older, it just was something that, you know, never really went away.

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And I just kind of obsessed with so. So I mean, again, everybody, like you were saying,

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everybody was inspired by Mr. Steve Irwin. But what about what about the crocodile hunter? Like

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what what was inspiring about that to you? Gosh, I don't you know, I'm almost like an adrenaline

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kind of thing. In a weird way, because I've always been like really interested in like, the scary

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animals, right? Like venomous snakes, like jumping on the back of a crocodile, you know, that kind

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of stuff always intrigued me, which is interesting, because I think the reason I've been able to do a

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lot of the things that I do, you know, and working at different zoos and sanctuaries and stuff, I've

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been allowed to work with those animals because I'm pretty cautious and reserved, you know, which is

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ironic, because that's what draws me towards them. So I think it was just that, you know, I just, you

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know, when I think of my childhood, I just remember like, him and his group, his team, like jumping

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on the back of like, you know, a giant, like 20 foot saltwater crocodile. I was just like, that's

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just so freaking cool.

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So do you find yourself often jumping on the back of 20 foot saltwater crocodiles or

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not very often, unfortunately?

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Not quite the focus.

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It's still a dream, you know. I'm only working my way there. That's one that's one thing I've

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never really gotten to do much, which I would love to do at some point in my life is more work with

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wild animals and conservation and stuff. I see people like Forest Galante, I don't know if you

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know who that is. He has a, he had a show that was on Animal Planet called extinct or alive, where

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he would go and he'd look for animals that were supposedly extinct, and rediscover them to put

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conservation works into effort to conserve what animals are left of whatever species. But like

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that kind of stuff like going out, getting hands on with like wild animals and like working to like

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protect native habitats is always something that I think is just, I don't know, just very romantic.

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And I've never really gotten to do that.

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Yeah, and I think that's interesting that it's, you know, what draws you to, you know, what to

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Steve Irwin and what he was doing was like that very adrenaline junkie that, like exciting aspect

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of it. Yeah. And it sounds like you're still kind of working on that. And it sounds like it's not

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just, like, there's like different kinds of thrills there. There's like the thrill of being kind of in

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a dangerous situation, but it's not just the situation itself. It sounds like it's for a greater

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purpose. It's for a greater purpose. And I think it's a little bit of like the artistry behind it,

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right? Because it's like, you know, it's not just going out and doing something dangerous for the

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sake of it being dangerous. It's like the fact that like, you know, a little like, you know, seven

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year old boy can watch that on TV and be like, oh my gosh, that's scary. That's so dangerous. How can

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you do that? But when you really look at it, like, you know, if you've ever worked with like

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crocodilians or if you worked with venomous snakes, it's like an art, right? It's knowing how those

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animals work, knowing how they function and being able to manipulate that and work safely, even

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though it looks scary and dangerous. And it is, you know, but there's an art to it. And I think,

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yeah, and like you said, it's all for like a greater purpose. It's, you know, conservation work

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or, you know, animal welfare is like, you know, obviously what I'm involved with. So yeah. And

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that's what I've noticed too, with like a lot of people that aren't, you know, as invested,

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because I was the president of the Northern California Herpetological Society. Whenever I

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reference it, it'll just be NCHS from this point on. That was a big thing too, is that people are

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like, how are you comfortable handling this, you know, this Burmese, this Retic, this Boa, this,

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you know, crazy, you know, it's like you were saying, it's like, well, there's an art, like,

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you have to know the animal, you have to know their body language. And just kind of, since we're

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even on the topic of Steve Irwin a little bit, like, wasn't there a quote he said where

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alligators are easy, they want to try to bite you and eat you. Humans are a lot more difficult.

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They'll try to be your friend first, right? Yeah. There are certain tells that these animals have,

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and like, it is like very much like something that you need to be involved with and interested in

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and really pay attention to. Otherwise, you could very much get hurt. Yeah. It's almost like high

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stakes magic tricks. It's like, if you're a magician, you know what's going on, but to everybody else,

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they're like, whoa. Exactly. And I posted a picture of me holding your guys's Gila monster

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in a Prescott, Arizona page. And I had a few people like, oh, maybe you shouldn't be touching

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the Gila monsters. Don't you know those are venomous? Don't you know those are dangerous?

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I was surrounded by trained professionals. I myself am, I wouldn't call myself a trained

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professional, but I know a little about a lot. So I think I'm okay. But yeah, and I think what's also

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like, I don't know, just acknowledging you is you've been able to take that experience, you know,

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being inspired as a seven year old boy, watching the crocodile hunter, like we all did, and you're

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doing something with it. So how did you kind of go from seeing Steve run around on TV doing his thing

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to now, like we were kind of saying off off the record, having some of the best titles, in my

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opinion, of someone that wants to be involved in this work, because you have three different roles

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as of now, that are animal related. So how did you kind of fall into that?

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Well, I wish I could say that there is like, like a turning point or something, you know,

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and I think maybe to some degree, there was, you know, I think for most of my like young adult life,

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animals were like something that I really loved and was passionate about. But it was never like,

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like, oh, this is what I'm going to do for a long time. It wasn't really until I got into,

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I think my, I think like very early 20s, maybe even like 20, is when I was like, hey,

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you know, I think I want to do this, you know, for a living, in the sense that,

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I don't know, I think for me, it's just, I kind of came to this point in my life where I started

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trying to fill my life more with things that I love and I enjoy. Because I think I, you know,

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started with a mindset of like, I need to work. And then I need to use the money that I make

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working to do little bits of things that I enjoy, rather than just saying, you know, why don't I

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just go all out and do what I love, do what I enjoy, which is taking care of animals, and then

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just keep filling my life with that stuff. And it kind of just escalates over time. You know,

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it starts with like volunteering at this group, volunteering with this wildlife organization,

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then all of a sudden you get offered a job. And then all of a sudden you have experience with like,

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you know, this, these animals, so then you can do this. And then it kind of just escalates until,

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you know, I love animals. I love taking care of animals and, you know, anything that I can do

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that either furthers, you know, my experience with that, or my ability to do that. It's just

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opportunities that I take, you know. Gotcha. So it sounds like it was kind of piecemeal together

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at the very beginning. And that until like that was very much like a snowball effect, kind of like,

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oh, you get this little, get this opportunity that it moves into this and it goes into this and then,

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and then so on and so on and so forth. Yeah. And then it consumes your entire life.

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It consumes your entire life. But it sounds like that's what you want to do. Like that's.

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Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I think for like a decent amount of time, I like focused on trying

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to make money, right. Which I still want to make money. I mean, who doesn't want to make money?

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You know, how many animals I could help, you know, if I had a million dollars. I think I was putting

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the things that I love, like animals, for example, taking care of animals, doing all the things that

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I want to do with animals as like a side burner, like the secondary, and then like making money and

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like building a career as like the primary. And I kind of changed that just slowly and gradually

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over the years. You know, I left a really well paying job that I was at for like five years

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to go be a vet tech because I was like, well, I'll learn more about veterinary medicine.

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I'll get to take care of animals every single day. And I don't make nearly as much money, but

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it's I feel a lot happier and I feel like I'm learning a lot more to grow myself and to be able

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to do what I want to do better. Yeah, I feel like that's a I think that's a weird crossroads that

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a lot of people come to. It's like, do I want to follow my passions or do I want to make money?

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And I feel like that's a very common thing with people that are into animals and art.

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Like that's kind of where I hear it from the most or maybe those are just the people I run around

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with the most. So it's kind of interesting that you're just kind of like, you know,

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all my money is going to go towards this other thing anyway. And knowing how much vet bills are

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for exotic species. Yeah, I would almost wager that you make more now because you're able to do

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some stuff on your own. Right. Yeah, I saved Sonoran reptiles and myself a lot of money by

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working at a vet clinic because I get the vet discounts and then also knowing what I'm doing.

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Knowing what the heck I'm doing, which I knew a decent amount about medical stuff before getting

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the vet job. But knowing more about what I'm doing, you know, saved me a lot in vet bills

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and stuff like that. And like I said, it kind of goes in a circle because if Sonoran reptiles

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doesn't have the money, I'm the one that ends up fronting it. So the buck starts and ends with you

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as the dude on the paperwork. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, everyone, just a quick message. You know that

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my mission with this podcast is to share stories of influence and impact so that we can help more

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people help more people. But to do that, I need your support. Please rate, review and share this

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podcast. If I could ask for just one favor, it's to just leave a review. It takes about 10 seconds

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and a few clicks, but it means the world to me and could inspire someone else to make a difference.

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Thank you so much. Now back to the show.

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Just to kind of get a little bit of a timeline. So were you doing your work? Because I think the way

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that the way I have it in my head is that it was kind of like vet tech, Sonoran reptiles out of

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Africa. Like what's kind of the timeline? I assume that everybody knows everything. I don't talk about

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myself too much too often. So I don't tell a lot of details. So I did skip over that. Yeah. So for

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the longest time, just to give a timeline, you know, I would work and volunteer on and off,

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just through different nonprofit organizations or zoos and stuff like that, just to be around animals

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and get experience and whatnot. And at a certain point in time, and this escalated very quickly,

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I went from, you know, volunteering with different organizations to being like, you know, one day I

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was like, Hey, you know, I want to like in my head, you know, being the young me that I was at the

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time, I was like, I want to start a zoo. Right. So Sonoran reptiles came first in this. I'm just

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kind of escalating to where that kind of came up. And I was like, I want to start a zoo. So I don't

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have any money. So zoos cost lots of money to do. So I was like, well, why don't I just start small?

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And I was like, you know, I've been volunteering for a lot of educational organizations and stuff

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around my area, teaching people just about native and non-native reptiles. And I was like, well,

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why don't I start doing stuff like that? So I started just unofficially, you know, not on paper,

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you know, not on paper, not with any paperwork or, you know, official tax filing, just doing

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educational stuff. And it very like quickly ramped up to where like, it was like, Oh, you know,

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this person's calling and they want a presentation. This person's calling. They want a presentation

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here. This person came to me and they're like, Hey, we saw you doing this presentation. We have

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a ball python. We can't take care of, can you take this? And I was like, okay. Right. And I was like,

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sure. You know, and that just kind of happened so quickly over the course of like, I would say like

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a year, things just started like ramping up really quick while I was doing a lot of this stuff.

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And there was an older guy in our community in Sedona that used to do a lot of educational stuff

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and he had a small group that he had put together that would do education around the community for

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reptiles and whatnot. And he was deciding that he wanted to retire and he wanted somebody that

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could like kind of take over that kind of aspect of things in our area. So he came to me at a certain

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point and I'm not sure if this was like right as I was starting Sonoran reptiles officially,

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or if it was like just before and he was like, Hey, he's like all these shows that we do.

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He's like, you take them. And he's like, and all these animals that I have, you take them.

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I was like, okay. So I started Sonoran reptiles and it kind of escalated from like, just doing

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that to like, when I decided, Hey, you know, I want to do a nonprofit because, you know,

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I think, you know, the structure as for what we're doing kind of fits the nonprofit bill.

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Also, I feel like, you know, being somebody who doesn't come from a lot of money as when you have

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a nonprofit, it's not that it's more lucrative than a for business thing, because it's not,

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especially not like lucrative as on a personal level, like, right, like I'm not making any money.

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But in terms of like getting started, there's a lot less like cost involved, like getting started

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up with a nonprofit in the sense that, you know, you can get support, you can get donations,

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you don't need to pay taxes on the things that you're doing. So when you're smaller,

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I think it's a lot easier from that aspect. So I went in and I started filing all the paperwork.

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I got, I don't know what you would call it, but somebody who knows tax paperwork,

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like an accountant kind of person,

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Yeah, to help file all that stuff and get it all set up. And I was just like, oh, you know,

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it was very much like winging it. It was like, I know this person runs a nonprofit. Let me ask them

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what they did. And then they would give me a little bit of advice and I just go start doing that.

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And then it was like, oh, well, you need a board. And I was like, oh, okay. So I just started going

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around. I was like, you know, this person volunteered with this group and they're involved

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with the reptile community. Go ask them, go ask this person, go ask this person. So I just started

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asking people around me who I knew cared about reptiles, not even people who I really associated

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with very closely, just people who I knew cared about reptiles. And I built my board basically

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that way over the course of like a month. And then we filed it. And then, you know, we filed our

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nonprofit paperwork literally as everything was shutting down for COVID-19 in 2020. It was like

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right in the middle of March. So the paperwork took forever to go through and actually get filed

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once it was approved, once it was filed. And then it just kind of just kept going from there.

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All during that time, I was working a full-time job doing sales at an art gallery in Sedona.

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So that was basically what I was doing for money for myself and to help support everything that I

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was doing because it does cost a lot of money. It costs a lot of money to do that, to do this kind

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of stuff. Even just the education side, you know, buying like displays and buying like the startup

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stuff, you know, tables, all that little stuff, it all adds up. So it does cost a lot of money.

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I think that I've heard that a lot and I've experienced this and it very, every time I go

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to buy anything for when I was with NCHS, it was like, man, this is the perfect example of selling

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shovels to gold miners. Like there's no money in the gold, but the shovels, the poster boards,

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the tablecloths, it's like, man, these are insane. Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly. So at that time, yeah, like I said, I was working sales. So I was making pretty good

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money. I was making decent money. I had a job where that job was very lenient, you know, where I

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could take time off if I needed to, I could move things around and I had very much a schedule that

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I could do all this stuff around that. And then it eventually got to the point where, you know,

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outside of just some personal things with that job and whatnot, like new management moved in.

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I was kind of like getting burnt out from that. I was like, I'm tired of like selling stuff to people.

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Like I just want to do animal stuff. You know, it's like, I've been making decent money for like

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five years and you know, it hasn't really done much for my happiness. You know what I mean?

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So I was kind of like, I just wanted to move into something where I could enjoy what I was doing a

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little bit more and feel like I was actually like growing in the areas of my life that I wanted to.

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So that's when I started doing the vet tech job. I picked up the vet tech job.

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And that's been great. You know, it's been a learning experience on a whole bunch of levels.

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Just, you know, everything from like what you would expect, right? Like learning about medicine

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and treating animals and such. Even down to like just really change, like putting a new perspective

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on like how different aspects of the animal world communicate, you know, working in zoos and

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sanctuaries, doing the educational thing, and then moving into the veterinary side. You know,

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you'd think it would all be very similar, but it's all very different. It's just, you know,

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it's just, it just, it just is different the way that people think about animals and the way that

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you see them is different versus like a zoo or, you know, obviously like pets and then stuff like

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that. So it's, it's all different. So it's interesting to see those different perspectives of things.

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And then recently got picked up on the out of Africa thing. So that was a pretty new

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development. That was, I want to say a new development is probably about two months ago now,

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at least. So I've only been there for a short period of time, but.

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Yeah. And I know that we, we, again, we kind of discussed this a little bit off the air and now

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we're doing it again on the air, but it sounds like with each different area you've been in with

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animals, it sounds like it's like a dice, right? Like there's, it's the same piece. It's all the

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same thing. It's centered around, but there's different like perspectives or different goals

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or missions with each thing. Oh yeah. There's different things with, you know, with your,

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your pet at home versus the pet that's in front of you at the vet clinic versus the animal that

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comes in to the rescue versus what's at the zoo. Like could you talk a little bit about more of

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what those different perspectives look like and what you mean by that? Gosh. Yeah. I think just to,

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I can get too deep with that because like I've been thinking about it a lot recently, but like

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for example, when you work in the rescue or sanctuary world, right. You know, there's,

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there's like, I think you could kind of guess it from the outside, right? Like there's stereotypes,

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right? If you're running, if you go into a rescue, your stereotype in your head is a whole bunch of

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animals, right? With like maybe minimal care. That's like stereotype. Now that's not good.

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And that's not necessarily the case a majority of the time, but that becomes the stereotype

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when people think of a rescue or something like that, right? Animals that were poorly taken care

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of. Now there's a bunch of them in this rescue and they're not being poorly taken care of.

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And they're not being poorly taken care of anymore, but you know, it's minimal space,

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minimal, you know, whatever. And then rehoming or whatever it is. Or if it's, you know, a sanctuary,

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then it's permanent sanctuary and stuff like that. Example would be like something like Phoenix Herp

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sanctuary, where they provide permanent sanctuary to tons of animals that just can't be pets.

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And when you're in that world, your mindset is very much like, what it is, is like, how do you help

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the most animals the most effectively, right? Because there's so many animals that get dropped

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off that people can't take care of and stuff like that. And you have to really balance

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taking in all those animals, right? And providing them the like good care. But I don't think that

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the mindset's not usually like, what is the absolute best care for this animal? It's how do

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we get this animal its basic needs, right? And then move on to the next. So it's helping a large

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amount of animals. And again, I want to emphasize that it doesn't mean that those animals are being

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taken care of, but it's not, you know, they're not in giant zoo enclosures. It's different, right?

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And then to just kind of like, because I know that there is a little bit of that judgment and

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that self-judgment that you kind of experience as a rescuer. Like my personal pet leopard gecko

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had super pretty enclosure, super good, you know, in my opinion, a really good setup. But then the

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rescues that we would bring in, like they would have paper towel substrates, it'd be in a small

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tote. Like it's very much about efficiency. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean bad

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for the animal. It's just, it's a different mindset is what I was, you know, like I'm saying here.

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Exactly.

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Yeah. So I think, I think, so you can kind of understand that it's not that, you know,

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it's very much about how do we effectively provide, you know, the basic needs for as many animals as

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possible, right? So you're constantly trying to help these animals and bring them in. And it's

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a very much like not money-based at all. Like, like I don't like when an animal comes in for,

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for like scenario, someone drops something off. Never, ever do I ever think how much money is

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this going to cost. It never, it's just like, let's do it. Let's get it going. And, you know,

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it costs money, you know, it ends up costing like hundreds of dollars sometimes per animal that comes

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in. If you have to put together all new enclosures, because usually if someone's not taking care of a

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bearded dragon, they're not dropping it off in the nicest display enclosure that, you know, you want

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to keep it in forever. It's usually in like a 20 gallon tank that you have to move it out of and

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put something, build something bigger for it. So every single animal is associated with a huge cost.

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But you never think about that. It's how do we effectively take care of this animal, right?

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And it's not, again, like I said, it's not to say that cost is an aspect because it always is.

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And then when you move into like the zoo world, it's a lot less quantity-based

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and it's a lot more quality-based. So you have, you go from having a ton of animals meeting their

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baseline to you're not really helping any animals necessarily, right? You have a handful of animals

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that are on display and maybe, you know, the zoo sends some money for conservation work. Maybe you're

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help doing some research for some certain species, but you have like 40 animals, right? Like in a,

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like, for example, the reptile department in Africa, you have like 40 animals, right? And it's like

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out of those 40 animals, like your only goal is how do I make their enclosures look nice for people?

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How do I give them the optimum care so they live the longest? And that just becomes it, right? So

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it's a very individual-based and there's a lot more like personal attachment to those animals,

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which is I think a very like, it is an interesting mindset because you have to, you switch from,

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what do you do to take care of these animals, like their basic needs? And you switch from

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education and stuff like that to more towards, you know, focusing on almost like their pets.

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And I would say that it's pretty similar in an aspect to a hobbyist, like keeping a pet,

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where, you know, if you have one, you know, green iguana, I see this all the time on like the

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internet, people have like one pet green iguana and like they deck out their whole room to take

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care of this one green iguana, you know what I mean? And it's like, it's super cool. So you kind

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of get like that aspect of it, where it's a lot more focused, which is great. Because I think your

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quality is better, but your impact is probably a little bit less in terms of what you're doing for

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the animals in general. Like, you know, if you want to give a green iguana a hundred foot by a

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hundred foot enclosure, you know, you're very limited on how many green iguanas you can take in,

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if there are rescues and stuff like that, right? And then when you move into the vet world,

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it's very, it's very interesting because it's like, for me, it was totally different, like the way

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that people think about animals, because it's a lot more like, and I think I've talked to you about

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this before, it's a lot more like finance based. And it's not to say that anybody in the vet world

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does what they do because of money, but you make money because of what you do right with the animals.

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So when you work at a zoo, people pay you money to take the most care of those animals. People pay

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you money to make these beautiful giant enclosures that these animals look super cool in. That's

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what you get paid to do, right? When you're at a sanctuary, you get paid to take in and provide a

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better life for animals, right? Whether, and that's not necessarily like, you know, you could

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charge like a surrender fee or something like that, but your grants and stuff, the stuff that

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people pay you for, like the reason you get your grants is because you're helping those animals.

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So the more you take in animals and give them a better life and show that you can do that

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functionally and effectively, the more money you make, right? The more successful you are,

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because you're making a bigger impact. The bigger the impact you make, the more you're likely to

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get grants and stuff and be supported by your community. When it comes to like the vet world,

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you're getting paid to treat the animals, but you're getting paid by the people who own them,

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not yourself. You know what I mean? So people bring you these animals and it's like,

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okay, you know, this animal has an abscess in its face, for example, right? Okay. Yeah. This is a

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perfect example. That beautiful dragon you saw when you were over at my place, had a big little

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abscess on its head right above its eye. It turns out to be its sinus. I think it was its sinuses

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had gotten infected and turned into an abscess and it was just as bulge. It came out. Me knowing

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what I know, working in the vet world, working in the rescue world and being able to take care of

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those animals, I was able to go in there, pop out a big chunk of pus and clean that out and start

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that animal antibiotics. And it cost me nothing. That cost me $0 to do, right? 100% free. I got

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I got a big vial of antibiotics for my work for like 20 bucks at cost. And I have enough that I

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could use it for other animals. Like it costs virtually nothing to take care of that animal.

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But if another person was to take that animal into a vet clinic, not having that experience,

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knowledge and ability, they would take that animal to a vet clinic and it would cost them like 80

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bucks for an exam. And then, you know, it'd probably be some lab work, blood work or something is

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associated. There'd be like a wound cleaning charge and there'd be the charge of the antibiotics.

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By the time they walk out of there at a cheap clinic, they're going to be paying like 300 bucks

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up to like even like maybe $1,000, depending on what goes on, right? If you don't have that money,

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guess what happens? That animal dies. You either let that animal degrade because you don't have

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any way to pay it. So you just let it go. Or like the vet clinic might euthanize it for you because

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a euthanasia charge is a lot less than treatment charge for some things like that. Right? So,

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so it's very different in that way. Because it's more finance driven. It's very strange,

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I think for me coming from the, because it's like, yes, best care for the animal is the priority,

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but it's with like only with a, what is it, with a cost, right? It can only happen if the money's

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available in that sense, which in all the other aspects of animal care, money has to be available.

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But the pay structure and where you're getting paid is and how and why is different,

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right? If that makes any sense. So, I don't know, it's just, it's just interesting.

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And I think because of that, people have a different perspective on things.

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I think like, you know, from working there, like it's made me feel when I like take in

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bunches of animals and I'm able to pay for, you know, all this care for these animals,

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I have a perspective on it of, you know, I have funding from the organization, right?

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Take care of animals. I have my own experience and stuff, so I can do a lot of things on my own.

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So it's the cost per animal goes down, right? As you know what you're doing and as you're more

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capable of doing these things, you have those resources versus like if you're a regular person,

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the cost per animal is a lot higher. You know, the amount it costs me to take care of a bearded

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dragon every single year is probably like half, if not less than half, especially if you take

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into consideration vet costs for the average person. So it kind of puts a perspective on me

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of like, you know, as like someone looking into the reptile hobby or the animal keeping world

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in general, whether it's a dog or cat or a, or, or boa, I don't think most people understand how

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expensive it is to keep an animal. So it gives you this perspective of almost like, you know,

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should most people be having pets and, you know, should they, how many pets should you be able to

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have? Not in the sense that I think that we should restrict people from having pets or anything like

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that, but I just don't think that a majority of people realize what it actually costs and what

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it actually takes to have a pet or to have a, you know, a dog or a cat, or even a bearded dragon,

371
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:25,720
because I think the bare minimum that it takes to keep them alive might seem low, but if you're

372
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:29,640
actually going to take good care of them, you're going to take them to the vet when they need to,

373
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,480
you're going to get the procedures done when they need done and that kind of stuff, or like

374
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:41,000
provide them good quality care and enrichment that costs a lot. And I think, you know, working at

375
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,440
the vet field, it's really put a perspective on me of like most people, I don't think have that

376
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:52,040
perspective or even capability a lot of the times. And it's kind of sad, you know, when you see it,

377
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:58,440
and it makes sense to me, it kind of comes full circle, why these animals get dropped off with us,

378
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,600
right? Because before it's like, oh, well, why did you get this bearded dragon if you can't take

379
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,080
care of it, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then you get, I got to see that other aspect of like, oh,

380
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,520
this person just went into the vet and they told them it's going to cost them a thousand dollars

381
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:16,520
to do what I just did for free in two seconds, right? So it's just, yeah, it's just interesting

382
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:22,120
to see all those different perspectives around, like you said, these different sides to the same dice.

383
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,280
Yeah. And I think that's such an interesting thing too, because that's just, I mean,

384
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,440
just the things you're touching on there is, I don't know,

385
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,040
I feel we could have a whole other hour and a half long conversation about

386
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,720
if people should have certain pets, which is like such a weird thing to say, right? Like I'm

387
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:44,840
definitely not one to say, if you're taking care of them, they're hitting the five freedoms

388
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:53,480
of animal husbandry. Yes. If you can afford it, do whatever. I get it. But also it's like,

389
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:59,000
I don't know, it's like the cute animal syndrome. Like they go into a pet co and they see the super

390
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:04,280
cute baby bearded dragon. It's standing at the glass. It's waving at them. They think it's like

391
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:10,680
it's cute as fricking thing. And I, when I was talking to Victoria from house of voodoo reptile

392
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:18,840
sanctuary, it's like, I got my bearded dragon for free from a friend. And, you know, it ended up

393
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:24,360
being the most expensive free animal that I could have ever imagined. Cause I get it home. And then

394
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:30,200
I was like, I should Google how to take care of this thing. And it's like four or 500 bucks just

395
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:38,360
to get the initial enclosure, like 20, 30 bucks a week for food when they're babies. And then I had

396
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,520
to, like you were just saying, I had to take my bearded dragon to the vet for an abscess on her

397
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,160
mouth. And the, you know, the vet's like, Oh, we need to do this, this, this. And I ended up getting

398
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:53,960
a $400 picture of her taken for an X-ray. I think it was like 200, but it's like, these things are

399
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,720
crazy expensive. And you know, unfortunately, unfortunately, fortunately, there's nothing

400
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:04,840
they could really do to help her because it is in such a weird spot. So they're kind of just like,

401
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,160
Oh, just drain the abscess and like, just do whatever you can to, you know, just make sure

402
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:15,080
she's eating. And I'm like, it costs me $700 for you to tell me that. But it's like, I didn't have

403
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,680
the experience. And like, I didn't know any better. And it's, you know, it's, again, it's one of those

404
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:25,640
hard things. It's like, you, you got to go to the expert to be better safe than sorry. But that,

405
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:32,440
that value of knowledge is like, not as, I don't know, I feel like that could be more

406
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,720
prevalently explained. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's, I think that's an

407
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:43,720
important part of, I think what we do is like, you know, rescues, I think one of the biggest

408
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:48,840
parts of rescues of a good rescue is education. And I think that's a, that's a big part of it is,

409
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:54,680
you know, I think, you know, even I'm guilty of this to some extent, you know, our education

410
00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:00,040
curriculum for like presentations and stuff is very much, you know, obviously based around like

411
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:06,200
native animals, based around conservation and understanding and stuff. Part of the problem that

412
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,600
comes with it is like, you know, we're teaching people to love reptiles, and then they go and they

413
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,760
get a pet reptile, and then they don't know what to do with it. And then it ends up at our sanctuary

414
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,000
because they didn't know what to do. So it's almost like this full circle effect. And I think we need

415
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:26,440
to be better at teaching people the importance of doing research and like knowing what goes into it

416
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:31,880
all. And I think that stuff isn't completely out there, especially when it comes to like, what kind

417
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,720
of financial responsibility are you going to be looking at? Like what you said, like you said,

418
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:39,240
with your bearded dragon, you know, getting all that enclosure set up, but then like there's so

419
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:43,560
much maintenance that goes alongside of it. And if you don't know, you know, if you didn't do your

420
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,480
research good enough around the first time, you know, something goes wrong or just something goes

421
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,120
wrong because things go wrong, right? With their animals. And you have to take it to a vet. It's

422
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,600
like, okay, well, now you have to pay your vet fees. And most people don't have any idea how much

423
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,280
that usually is. And then you have to find a vet that like can treat exotics. And then you have to

424
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,800
find a vet that like will treat exotics, but also knows how to treat exotics, because those are two

425
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,240
different things, right? Some vets will treat exotics, but don't know what they're doing.

426
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:17,560
So that adds an aspect to it. You know, if you live in a small town somewhere,

427
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:23,720
you know, be ready to drive an hour or two hours to a larger city where you can get a specialist,

428
00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:27,160
you know, to see your bearded dragon for something silly, you know.

429
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:34,120
And just doing that background or that research before you even get the animals,

430
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,360
like those things you don't even think of. Yeah. And I feel like that's another thing that people

431
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,920
don't typically like to think about is what happens when things go wrong. They just kind of

432
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,880
think to themselves like, oh, well, I'll just, you know, I'll just do everything I can to make

433
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,880
sure nothing bad happens. It's like, yes, preventative medicine is the best medicine. But

434
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:58,200
again, when you have silly little animals running around, like what is it like with horses? They

435
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:05,480
always say like, you know, they they'll cut themselves on air. Like, like, you'll look at

436
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,640
them funny and they'll be like, I have a colic. And it's like the same thing with a lot of animals.

437
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,520
Like these things just happen. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

438
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,440
Welcome to the mountaintop. Are you an entrepreneur or nonprofit leader ready to make a bigger impact

439
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Each course is designed to support you to holistically grow yourself as the person behind

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Again, be sure you get in now because I cannot wait to see you there and witness the peaks

454
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you'll reach in just a few weeks. And we're getting kind of close to the hour, but I did

455
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:17,000
want to hear a little bit more about when it comes to you and your work at Out of Africa,

456
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,320
and I really do enjoy this discussion we've had about the difference between the rescue slash

457
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:29,720
sanctuary, a zoo, pet, and vet. I feel like there's some kind of cutesy continuum graphic

458
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:36,200
that we can make that explains those differences. There's something there, but the thing that caught

459
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:42,280
my eye the most with that was with the zoo, it's less quantity, more quality. And can you just talk

460
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:49,640
for just a few minutes a little bit about what your goals are there and why Out of Africa reached

461
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:54,280
out to you specifically to help them out with their reptile department?

462
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:01,400
Yeah, so obviously I've talked to you a bit about this, but to reiterate for the audience too.

463
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:09,800
So obviously I work as a vet tech currently, and I run Sonoran Reptiles, so that's a lot of stuff to

464
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:19,960
do, but I do the vet tech job part-time. So Out of Africa called me at a certain point and they said,

465
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:27,880
you know, I had interned there for a little while, some odd years back, maybe like 2021.

466
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:35,320
And they called me and they said, hey, you know, our reptile department is getting really thin.

467
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:43,160
They were like, we have two people there at the moment. I think full staff for them is like four

468
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:48,840
people. They have two people there. One of them's never worked in a zoo before, not much experience

469
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:55,960
and stuff. So they're really slim on care. And their previous manager had left,

470
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,360
and they had been having a hard time finding somebody to move in there. Not only that, but

471
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:08,120
they were kind of dissatisfied with the way that the department had been looking for the last couple

472
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:15,240
of years. Everything has kind of gotten stripped down to the bare minimum. They felt like the

473
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:20,920
husbandry was a little bit off in some places, and they just really wanted to make the place like,

474
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:27,800
just bring it to life. Like verbatim, their words was, we want to bring life back into the reptile

475
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,840
department. I was like, okay, you know, I can do that. They're like, they called me and they said,

476
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:37,800
hey, you know, we've talked to this person, we've talked to this person at the park. They all

477
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:45,720
recommended you. I said, basically, I was like, if you want me to go on there full time as a manager,

478
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,640
it's going to cost X, right? That's what I need to pay my bills. Not a crap ton of money,

479
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:57,560
not a crap ton of money, but zoos and sanctuaries are notorious for paying very low,

480
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:05,080
minimum wage or close to, because there's just not a whole ton of money in it, right?

481
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:11,960
And it's a very competitive, usually competitive, you know, job market in the sense that everybody

482
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:20,040
wants to work at a zoo. Obviously, in this case, it's a little bit different. So they were like,

483
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:25,400
well, you know, we can't, we can't do that. We don't have the money and the resources to pay

484
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:32,920
you that much. And they're like, so if you know anybody, please let us know. So I was like, okay,

485
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:38,680
no problem. A couple of days later, they called back and they're like, hey, we called around at

486
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:46,360
a couple of different places to ask if they knew of anyone that we might be able to hire.

487
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:52,440
And they're like, and everybody keeps saying you. I was like, okay. So I was like, are you going to

488
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,960
pay me? And they're like, what can you do? Because basically, if I was going to quit my vet tech job,

489
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:04,040
I wouldn't to replace that job, I would need to make at least X amount of money at so many

490
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:10,280
hours, right? To pay my bills. So they were like, well, so I was like, well, if I don't

491
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:17,000
quit my vet tech job and I just do this on all the other off time that I have left, so I don't have

492
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:28,920
any life. I was like, I can do it at whatever the rate you're able to pay is. So I took the job

493
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:37,320
and I'm there just a few days a week. But I go there and basically I've been going through and

494
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:43,880
I've just been trying to, you know, when I got there, there's the person who built the place,

495
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:51,560
Dean was the original owner. And I should, you know, his wife is running the place now.

496
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:57,480
Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago. I know from when I met him that part of what he

497
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:04,680
liked is giving animals a lot of space, right? He wanted animals to have places to go to Rome

498
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:10,680
and to have, you know, interactions with other animals. There's a lot of cohabitation and stuff

499
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:15,880
there, which I think is cool, you know, as long as it's done safely and intelligently.

500
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:25,320
So the enclosures are big, but they're just really like not optimized. Now what I mean is,

501
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:31,080
is like, I've shown you pictures before, but they have these things called the bays where they keep

502
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:38,680
their giant snakes and they're probably like, I don't know, like, and maybe this is like, I would

503
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:46,360
say like, maybe like somewhere between like, I'd say like 15 feet wide by like six feet tall,

504
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:52,680
by like six feet deep, right? They're pretty big enclosures for like, you know, a reticulated Python.

505
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,640
So they're decent size, you know, it's adequate enough space. The snake can move around, they got

506
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:04,680
these big pools in them, but there's like nothing in them. So it's literally a concrete base with

507
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:11,880
their pool. And majority of them, they have like a couple of little like shelves that are made like,

508
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:17,720
like to look like kind of realistic rock that are coming down. So they can kind of get up on these

509
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:22,600
shelves, but they're just barren. They look like literal rock caves, like they're just empty. Like

510
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,880
it's like, there's nothing in them. There's nothing for the animals to do. And what I found out is,

511
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:34,760
is there used to be logs and like stuff for them to climb on. There used to be like live plants and

512
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:40,920
stuff in there. And all that stuff had been like taken out by previous management. And you know,

513
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,080
the owners expressed to me like that the previous management like did that stuff and then just

514
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:49,000
didn't ask them about it. They just took it out. So they didn't feel like, like there was always

515
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:54,440
like some sort of issue with it, right? Things that I felt like could have been worked around or like

516
00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:03,320
were kind of like not a huge issue. For example, there's scorpions that get inside those things.

517
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:09,880
If anyone doesn't know here in Arizona, we have scorpions. Some of them are potentially dangerous,

518
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,800
especially to like animals like reptiles, they can get stung and they can potentially die.

519
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:18,280
So scorpions will get in these cages. And one of the reasons that the previous management had taken

520
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,960
the logs and stuff out, like the decorations, they said that there was scorpions hiding in them.

521
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:32,760
That's fair. But my approach is to it was, you know, the scorpions are still in there. Like they

522
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:37,560
still go through, we have to find the scorpions and take them out because they still get inside

523
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:42,520
of these things. So it doesn't matter if there's logs in there for the animals, they can still

524
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:49,320
hide in them. Or the scorpions are getting in either way. So our focus needs to be like,

525
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,480
how do we stop the scorpions getting in and blah, blah, blah. But not to go on to like too much

526
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,480
of a rant on that specific topic, but it's like things like that, where it's like, I've been

527
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:02,440
putting in, you know, we've been decorating the enclosures, putting in logs, planting regal plants

528
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:08,120
and stuff like that. So just making the whole place look a little bit better. And then the

529
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:14,040
husbandry, right? Going through and kind of like fixing a lot of like little stuff that's like

530
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,760
kind of going on, like for example, since we're on the topic of those bays, those things are like

531
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:26,120
insulated boxes that they keep the humidity between like 80 and 90% in, which is like, okay,

532
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:31,080
you know, it's a reticulated Python, but they're like these stagnant boxes, there's no air

533
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:36,600
circulation. They just sit there. So a lot of the snakes were having like respiratory issues,

534
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:42,840
chronically coming back up and stuff like that. Because there's no system in place to help

535
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:50,120
aerate and vent those enclosures so that we can keep the humidity up and also, you know,

536
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,520
make sure there's no overgrowth of like bacteria and stuff to cause any sort of, you know, skin

537
00:52:54,520 --> 00:53:00,120
issues or respiratory issues and stuff like that. So it's like, it's been a lot of like improving

538
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:07,880
that kind of stuff. And really my goal there has been one husbandry and two, making the place a

539
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:15,400
nice experience for experience for guests to see, right? It's not a good experience when you go

540
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:20,600
there and you just see a snake in a big empty box. You know, when you have like stuff around it,

541
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:25,000
you feel like the thing is living like a naturalistic-esque life. It's a lot more

542
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,720
of a better experience for like people to go there. And part of what I've been trying to instill

543
00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:35,560
into the team there is like, you know, I feel like a lot of times the attitude, especially when you

544
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,480
work at a zoo and it's like, if you're only going to work there for like a few years or so, it's

545
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:46,280
like the attitude becomes like, you know, how do I make this easy for me and just get through my day,

546
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:54,040
right? And trying to reorient people to motivate them to be like, well, one, as a zookeeper,

547
00:53:54,040 --> 00:54:00,280
your number one job is taking the utmost care of the animals. You know, these are individual animals

548
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:05,640
that are here. They're not getting replaced unless they die. How do we keep them alive and give them

549
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:11,160
the best life possible, right? So optimizing care as if they were like your own personal pet. It's

550
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,840
like, yes, I know you're probably going to work here for like two, four years and then leave. And

551
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,480
it's going to be someone else's problem. But how do we take care of these animals as if they were

552
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:25,480
our own pet, as if we wanted them to live forever? You know what I mean? Like how do we try to make

553
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:34,360
that happen? Right. And then two, it becomes creating a good guest experience, you know,

554
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:40,280
making sure that people come back to view these things. Because when you're at a zoo,

555
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:46,920
that's a for-profit company that makes money off of people visiting. It's easy to go there and be

556
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:54,520
like, oh, you know, we just feed and take care of these animals. But if people don't come to the zoo,

557
00:54:54,520 --> 00:55:00,680
if people don't come to visit those animals, where's the money going to come from to pay for

558
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:07,640
those animals food and to pay for your paycheck? Right. So that's like the number one thing is

559
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:12,360
making sure that it's a positive experience for all the people that are going there. Not just,

560
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:17,720
oh, I don't want, you know, this and that enclosure because then I have to clean it every week.

561
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,040
You know what I mean? So there's been a lot of that kind of thing that it's been like, you know,

562
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:30,840
how do we redirect towards like making this the best place to live as an animal for the animals?

563
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:38,440
And then making it a good experience for the people that are visiting because, you know,

564
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,440
the happier those animals are, the better they're doing and the better their enclosures look,

565
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,000
the better the experience for the people. Because it all ties in, you know, people want to see the

566
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,600
animals in naturalistic enclosures. People want to see the animals thriving. They want to see them

567
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:55,320
healthy. They want to see them interacting. You know, if you have a snake that's sitting on a

568
00:55:55,320 --> 00:56:00,360
concrete floor, you know, it's like, oh, cool, big snake. But, you know, if you have logs and stuff

569
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,600
in there, it's hiding in the bushes. People go up and they look in the enclosures and they're like,

570
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,480
oh, where is it? Where is it? Oh, it's behind that bush, you know, or like, you know, oh, it's up,

571
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,480
it's up on top of that log, like climbing up there, you know, that kind of stuff. Right.

572
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,520
First, it's just like, oh, there's a snake on the ground. Next one.

573
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:23,000
You know, maintaining that naturalistic behavior so that people can, you know, they're not like

574
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:28,040
you're just saying they're not just seeing a snake in a box. They're seeing a snake exhibiting

575
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:35,480
natural behaviors in an environment that's designed for them. And yeah, I feel like that, gosh, what's

576
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:43,800
like not as apathetic, like people start feeling like as time goes on, we just need to make sure

577
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:49,960
that we can do this as fast and easy as possible. Yeah. On benefit rather than the benefit of the

578
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:56,040
animal. Yeah, yeah. And there's always a balance, you know, but especially with a zoo. Like I said,

579
00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:01,640
there's like that, that, that difference there between like sanctuary and zoo where, and they

580
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:06,440
do blend over, there's a balance, right? Like sanctuary is a lot more like, how do we do this

581
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:11,000
efficiently so we can provide care for all these animals? And we don't care about the looks too

582
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:16,680
much necessarily. We just want it to work for them and then be healthy. Whereas the zoos

583
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:24,280
has an emphasis as well on the looks of it. And, and then there's a balance because one, you know,

584
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,840
obviously you have to have the time to be able to take care of the animals in the zoo, not just

585
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:34,760
be doing maintenance on like plants and stuff all day. And then two, that naturalistic stuff,

586
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,520
but co-habiting animals that are from like, you know, similar regions to the other, they don't

587
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:45,080
mess with each other, like iguanas and tortoises or something. Or like putting logs and trees and

588
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:50,360
stuff in there for them to climb in and hide in, helps simulate natural behaviors and give them

589
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:55,720
enrichment that is really just going to make them happier and make them feel more like they're in

590
00:57:55,720 --> 00:58:01,880
the wild and make them feel more, you know, I really think that animals can get depressed

591
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:07,880
to a certain extent. I don't think depressed the way that we do, but it definitely bogs them down

592
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,280
mentally. Like you can tell when an animal is like inside of like a tupperware its whole life

593
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:16,040
versus an animal that's in a big enclosure where it's moving around. There's a lot more like

594
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:21,800
inquisitiveness and there's a lot more like, kind of like, I don't know, just interest from the

595
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:29,160
animals end. Like you can tell that that animal's experiencing things. Everything on this planet

596
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:34,920
learns the same way we do, you know, cause and effect. They go around in their environment,

597
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:39,480
they do things, they learn that when they do this, this happens. They go up and they're building

598
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,160
these neural networks in their brains, their little tiny brains, just the same way we do.

599
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:48,120
So when you have an animal that's allowed to do all that its entire life, you get a lot,

600
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:52,600
a much more smart animal. You get friendlier animals, I think towards people, you get animals

601
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:59,320
that I think generally are just smarter and like tend to live longer. Cause I think they're happier

602
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:04,440
and they're more active. You know what I mean? Versus animals that are just kind of like,

603
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:10,440
you know, I'm alive, I'm here. You know, it's like a person who's like, you know, going out and like

604
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:15,480
living their life and they go out and hike and stuff like that, you know, or active person versus

605
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,400
someone who hangs out in their house and watches TV. Like the person who hangs out in their house,

606
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:25,160
watches TV, you know, potato chips all day is happy. You know, they're fine. They're alive,

607
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:32,120
but you know, they're not probably not going to be as, you know, long lived as somebody who's

608
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,760
more active and whatnot. So I think the same thing does kind of apply to animals.

609
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:41,240
Yeah, no, I definitely hear that that it's like, again, that kind of just goes to standards of care.

610
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:46,280
Like you can do the bare minimum, whether, I mean, again, we could do a whole other episode about,

611
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:51,400
you know, what's the bare minimum for yourself, like take care of yourself, like you would the

612
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:57,720
ideal care for a critter, but when you're providing that care to an animal, like it sounds like,

613
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:03,720
especially in the zoo, it sounds like there's so many benefits to treating those animals with the

614
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:10,040
utmost respect, making sure they have all those freedoms to, you know, natural behaviors, health,

615
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:15,880
their enclosures are set up like a five star resort for them. Yeah, because that's a better

616
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:21,240
experience for the guests, they're more likely to come back. And again, it's, it's such a weird

617
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:25,960
balance that we kind of face as people in the animal industry of making sure that it's not

618
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:32,040
just about the money, but it's, it's impossible to deny the importance of that animal.

619
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:36,280
Because like even you said, if I had a million dollars, you know, how many animals I could help

620
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:41,400
with that? Like that's, that's really the forefront, but yeah. Right.

621
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:46,920
And I think, yeah, I think, you know, I think that that's part of the thing is that there's just not

622
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:51,880
a lot of funding for animal welfare is what it comes down to, you know, if there was enough

623
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:58,120
funding for animal welfare, you know, places like the Phoenix Herb sanctuary, who's the largest

624
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:04,200
reptile sanctuary in the United States could have a 20 acre lot and give every single animal there,

625
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:09,720
like 10 times the amount of space they have, you know. So it's like things like that. It's like,

626
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:14,440
it's not that people aren't out there doing the work and are willing to do it. It's just that

627
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:18,600
there's, you know, there needs to be more people willing to support it. There needs to be more

628
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:25,320
funding towards it, you know. Exactly. But in terms of out of Africa and Sonoran reptiles,

629
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:31,000
if folks wanted to be the people that fund and donate and help out monetarily,

630
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:35,800
where would be the best place for them to go in order to do so?

631
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:41,000
Yeah. Well, if you want to help out Sonoran Reptiles, the organization that I run,

632
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:48,520
you can just look up, look us up online. Sonoran Reptiles will pop up with the first one.

633
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:53,640
There's sonoranreptiles.com is our website. You can donate on there, you know, also,

634
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:59,480
if you're in the Arizona area, we take donations for, you know, all kinds of things, supplies and

635
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:04,920
stuff like that. And, you know, help out other organizations, you know, I, you know, I always

636
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:09,000
like to tell people, you know, it's not, you know, it's all community effort, you know.

637
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,280
You know, we get calls from other groups all the time, you know, they have things that are

638
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,560
leftover that they're going to get rid of and they send it our way that they're like, do you need this?

639
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,560
Do you want this? Yeah, look up, you know, a rescue in your area, make sure that they have

640
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:28,680
a 501C3 IRS tax ID so that they can, you can confirm that they are in fact a nonprofit.

641
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:33,000
So that, you know, they're reporting to somebody about what they're doing with the money and making

642
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:38,120
sure it's going to animals. But yeah, find those groups, support them in any way you can donating,

643
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:42,040
you know, you would be surprised the things that like organizations like that need to,

644
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:45,800
if you don't take care of reptiles, you have like a pet leopard gecko, but you love animals,

645
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:51,320
watch animals on YouTube. If you have like, you know, like a pet leopard gecko,

646
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:56,040
like office supplies, go donate that. Like they use that, we use that stuff, you know what I mean?

647
01:02:56,040 --> 01:03:01,560
Like all that kind of stuff helps in the long run because if we don't have to buy, you know,

648
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:06,200
stuff like that, that's more money that goes towards the animals in the end, you know,

649
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:12,280
that's more money left over for animals. So yeah, and then out of Africa, if you're in Arizona,

650
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:18,520
go visit the park, it's in Camp Verde, Arizona. Come see the work we've been doing on the reptile department.

651
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:22,360
Perfect. Yeah. And all the information, the websites, social media, everything will be linked

652
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:28,200
down in the show notes below. But Brett, thank you for hanging out with me and sharing some

653
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:34,040
info about our scaly friends. Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

654
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:40,760
For sure. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode of the Within Range Coaching Podcast.

655
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:45,000
I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Brett from Sonoran Reptiles and Out of Africa Wildlife

656
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:50,280
Park. It's really clear that the way that we care for our animals, especially in captivity,

657
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:55,160
can have a profound impact on their well-being and longevity. If you're passionate about animal

658
01:03:55,160 --> 01:04:00,600
welfare, consider supporting organizations like Sonoran Reptiles or your local wildlife sanctuary.

659
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:06,040
Every little bit helps, whether it's a donation, volunteering your time, or even just spreading

660
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:12,200
the word on social media. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate,

661
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:17,320
and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feed pack helps us reach more

662
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:23,400
people that want to help make the world a better place. Until next time, keep caring for our planet

663
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:43,080
and all its inhabitants, and have fun, stay safe, and be yourself.