Hello everyone and welcome to the Within Range Coaching Podcast. I'm Ranger, a certified
holistic success coach, and in this podcast, I break down the journey entrepreneurs face
as they start their organizations, overcome roadblocks in their way, and create an impact
that lasts. We talk with entrepreneurs, nonprofit leaders, and purpose-driven community members
just like you. Together, we learn how to grow our impact and develop ourselves as the people
behind the mission. My intention is to help more people, help more people. And remember,
if you're curious about expanding your impact, growing a community, or defining your mission,
vision, or values, we can chat off the record. You can find my info in the show notes or at my
website withinrangecoaching.com. We're also looking to build our sponsor community with
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and courageous candor. If you're interested in helping us highlight individuals doing great work
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I know you're just as eager to get started as I am, so let's jump right in. Hello everyone and
welcome to the Within Range Coaching Podcast, where today we will dive deep into the fascinating
world of animals and conservation. I'm your host, Coach Ranger, and today we're joined by Brett
Smith, an expert in herpetology, the founder of Sonoran Reptiles, and the reptile specialist
over at Out of Africa Wildlife Park in Arizona. We'll be discussing the importance of creating
naturalistic environments for reptiles in zoos and sanctuaries, the challenges of animal welfare,
and how we can all contribute to making a difference for our scaly, feathered, four-legged,
or no-legged friends. Whether you're an animal enthusiast or just curious about how we can better
care for our scaly friends, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss. Let's jump
right in. All right, Mr. Brett Smith, we are on the podcast. We are going. How are you doing today?
I'm doing great. Yeah, I'm doing awesome. Awesome. And as folks know, this is still part of my Walk
Across America series where I'm interviewing folks that have helped me along my route in some way, and
Brett helped me get through the Campo Verde area to Prescott, Arizona. So thank you again, Brett,
for all your help and assistance there. Yeah, it was a fun experience picking up some random
homeless guy off the side of the road. I know. I think that was one of the worst storms that I've
been caught in. The first day that he picked me up, I got caught in a crazy monsoon, and I have to
hide in a what was it? Family Dollar, Dollar General. Yeah, I had to hide in a Dollar General
for like an hour and a half, making friends with the workers until he was able to get off of work
and come and get me. So that was a fun little experience, you know, not just a homeless,
unemployed guy, but a soaking wet homeless, unemployed guy. But jumping into the reason why,
you know, he's not just a savior of the homeless, he is also a savior of reptiles, amphibians,
and other little cool critters all around Arizona. So, I mean, Brett, you're a vet tech,
you're the executive director at Sonoran Reptiles. And really, the main thing that we're going to be
talking about today is your work as the Reptile Department Manager at Out of Africa. Before we
get specifically into your role at Out of Africa, can you just talk a little bit about your
background? Like, have you just always been a lizard man? Or is it something relatively new to
you? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've always been a, you know, an animal and reptile person. I mean, I
think like, you know, just to repeat everybody else's same exact story, you know, grew up
watching the crocodile hunter. Same guy who inspired all of us, it seems. You know, going out
in my backyard in, you know, in the Mojave Desert, I grew up in Bullhead City, which if anyone knows
anything about that, it's basically just, we have a river and then just desert. So, you know,
there ain't much to do but go out and look for animals and stuff like that, at least there
wasn't for me. So yeah, I just grew up catching lizards, playing with snakes and stuff like that.
And it, you know, as I got older, it just was something that, you know, never really went away.
And I just kind of obsessed with so. So I mean, again, everybody, like you were saying,
everybody was inspired by Mr. Steve Irwin. But what about what about the crocodile hunter? Like
what what was inspiring about that to you? Gosh, I don't you know, I'm almost like an adrenaline
kind of thing. In a weird way, because I've always been like really interested in like, the scary
animals, right? Like venomous snakes, like jumping on the back of a crocodile, you know, that kind
of stuff always intrigued me, which is interesting, because I think the reason I've been able to do a
lot of the things that I do, you know, and working at different zoos and sanctuaries and stuff, I've
been allowed to work with those animals because I'm pretty cautious and reserved, you know, which is
ironic, because that's what draws me towards them. So I think it was just that, you know, I just, you
know, when I think of my childhood, I just remember like, him and his group, his team, like jumping
on the back of like, you know, a giant, like 20 foot saltwater crocodile. I was just like, that's
just so freaking cool.
So do you find yourself often jumping on the back of 20 foot saltwater crocodiles or
not very often, unfortunately?
Not quite the focus.
It's still a dream, you know. I'm only working my way there. That's one that's one thing I've
never really gotten to do much, which I would love to do at some point in my life is more work with
wild animals and conservation and stuff. I see people like Forest Galante, I don't know if you
know who that is. He has a, he had a show that was on Animal Planet called extinct or alive, where
he would go and he'd look for animals that were supposedly extinct, and rediscover them to put
conservation works into effort to conserve what animals are left of whatever species. But like
that kind of stuff like going out, getting hands on with like wild animals and like working to like
protect native habitats is always something that I think is just, I don't know, just very romantic.
And I've never really gotten to do that.
Yeah, and I think that's interesting that it's, you know, what draws you to, you know, what to
Steve Irwin and what he was doing was like that very adrenaline junkie that, like exciting aspect
of it. Yeah. And it sounds like you're still kind of working on that. And it sounds like it's not
just, like, there's like different kinds of thrills there. There's like the thrill of being kind of in
a dangerous situation, but it's not just the situation itself. It sounds like it's for a greater
purpose. It's for a greater purpose. And I think it's a little bit of like the artistry behind it,
right? Because it's like, you know, it's not just going out and doing something dangerous for the
sake of it being dangerous. It's like the fact that like, you know, a little like, you know, seven
year old boy can watch that on TV and be like, oh my gosh, that's scary. That's so dangerous. How can
you do that? But when you really look at it, like, you know, if you've ever worked with like
crocodilians or if you worked with venomous snakes, it's like an art, right? It's knowing how those
animals work, knowing how they function and being able to manipulate that and work safely, even
though it looks scary and dangerous. And it is, you know, but there's an art to it. And I think,
yeah, and like you said, it's all for like a greater purpose. It's, you know, conservation work
or, you know, animal welfare is like, you know, obviously what I'm involved with. So yeah. And
that's what I've noticed too, with like a lot of people that aren't, you know, as invested,
because I was the president of the Northern California Herpetological Society. Whenever I
reference it, it'll just be NCHS from this point on. That was a big thing too, is that people are
like, how are you comfortable handling this, you know, this Burmese, this Retic, this Boa, this,
you know, crazy, you know, it's like you were saying, it's like, well, there's an art, like,
you have to know the animal, you have to know their body language. And just kind of, since we're
even on the topic of Steve Irwin a little bit, like, wasn't there a quote he said where
alligators are easy, they want to try to bite you and eat you. Humans are a lot more difficult.
They'll try to be your friend first, right? Yeah. There are certain tells that these animals have,
and like, it is like very much like something that you need to be involved with and interested in
and really pay attention to. Otherwise, you could very much get hurt. Yeah. It's almost like high
stakes magic tricks. It's like, if you're a magician, you know what's going on, but to everybody else,
they're like, whoa. Exactly. And I posted a picture of me holding your guys's Gila monster
in a Prescott, Arizona page. And I had a few people like, oh, maybe you shouldn't be touching
the Gila monsters. Don't you know those are venomous? Don't you know those are dangerous?
I was surrounded by trained professionals. I myself am, I wouldn't call myself a trained
professional, but I know a little about a lot. So I think I'm okay. But yeah, and I think what's also
like, I don't know, just acknowledging you is you've been able to take that experience, you know,
being inspired as a seven year old boy, watching the crocodile hunter, like we all did, and you're
doing something with it. So how did you kind of go from seeing Steve run around on TV doing his thing
to now, like we were kind of saying off off the record, having some of the best titles, in my
opinion, of someone that wants to be involved in this work, because you have three different roles
as of now, that are animal related. So how did you kind of fall into that?
Well, I wish I could say that there is like, like a turning point or something, you know,
and I think maybe to some degree, there was, you know, I think for most of my like young adult life,
animals were like something that I really loved and was passionate about. But it was never like,
like, oh, this is what I'm going to do for a long time. It wasn't really until I got into,
I think my, I think like very early 20s, maybe even like 20, is when I was like, hey,
you know, I think I want to do this, you know, for a living, in the sense that,
I don't know, I think for me, it's just, I kind of came to this point in my life where I started
trying to fill my life more with things that I love and I enjoy. Because I think I, you know,
started with a mindset of like, I need to work. And then I need to use the money that I make
working to do little bits of things that I enjoy, rather than just saying, you know, why don't I
just go all out and do what I love, do what I enjoy, which is taking care of animals, and then
just keep filling my life with that stuff. And it kind of just escalates over time. You know,
it starts with like volunteering at this group, volunteering with this wildlife organization,
then all of a sudden you get offered a job. And then all of a sudden you have experience with like,
you know, this, these animals, so then you can do this. And then it kind of just escalates until,
you know, I love animals. I love taking care of animals and, you know, anything that I can do
that either furthers, you know, my experience with that, or my ability to do that. It's just
opportunities that I take, you know. Gotcha. So it sounds like it was kind of piecemeal together
at the very beginning. And that until like that was very much like a snowball effect, kind of like,
oh, you get this little, get this opportunity that it moves into this and it goes into this and then,
and then so on and so on and so forth. Yeah. And then it consumes your entire life.
It consumes your entire life. But it sounds like that's what you want to do. Like that's.
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I think for like a decent amount of time, I like focused on trying
to make money, right. Which I still want to make money. I mean, who doesn't want to make money?
You know, how many animals I could help, you know, if I had a million dollars. I think I was putting
the things that I love, like animals, for example, taking care of animals, doing all the things that
I want to do with animals as like a side burner, like the secondary, and then like making money and
like building a career as like the primary. And I kind of changed that just slowly and gradually
over the years. You know, I left a really well paying job that I was at for like five years
to go be a vet tech because I was like, well, I'll learn more about veterinary medicine.
I'll get to take care of animals every single day. And I don't make nearly as much money, but
it's I feel a lot happier and I feel like I'm learning a lot more to grow myself and to be able
to do what I want to do better. Yeah, I feel like that's a I think that's a weird crossroads that
a lot of people come to. It's like, do I want to follow my passions or do I want to make money?
And I feel like that's a very common thing with people that are into animals and art.
Like that's kind of where I hear it from the most or maybe those are just the people I run around
with the most. So it's kind of interesting that you're just kind of like, you know,
all my money is going to go towards this other thing anyway. And knowing how much vet bills are
for exotic species. Yeah, I would almost wager that you make more now because you're able to do
some stuff on your own. Right. Yeah, I saved Sonoran reptiles and myself a lot of money by
working at a vet clinic because I get the vet discounts and then also knowing what I'm doing.
Knowing what the heck I'm doing, which I knew a decent amount about medical stuff before getting
the vet job. But knowing more about what I'm doing, you know, saved me a lot in vet bills
and stuff like that. And like I said, it kind of goes in a circle because if Sonoran reptiles
doesn't have the money, I'm the one that ends up fronting it. So the buck starts and ends with you
as the dude on the paperwork. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, everyone, just a quick message. You know that
my mission with this podcast is to share stories of influence and impact so that we can help more
people help more people. But to do that, I need your support. Please rate, review and share this
podcast. If I could ask for just one favor, it's to just leave a review. It takes about 10 seconds
and a few clicks, but it means the world to me and could inspire someone else to make a difference.
Thank you so much. Now back to the show.
Just to kind of get a little bit of a timeline. So were you doing your work? Because I think the way
that the way I have it in my head is that it was kind of like vet tech, Sonoran reptiles out of
Africa. Like what's kind of the timeline? I assume that everybody knows everything. I don't talk about
myself too much too often. So I don't tell a lot of details. So I did skip over that. Yeah. So for
the longest time, just to give a timeline, you know, I would work and volunteer on and off,
just through different nonprofit organizations or zoos and stuff like that, just to be around animals
and get experience and whatnot. And at a certain point in time, and this escalated very quickly,
I went from, you know, volunteering with different organizations to being like, you know, one day I
was like, Hey, you know, I want to like in my head, you know, being the young me that I was at the
time, I was like, I want to start a zoo. Right. So Sonoran reptiles came first in this. I'm just
kind of escalating to where that kind of came up. And I was like, I want to start a zoo. So I don't
have any money. So zoos cost lots of money to do. So I was like, well, why don't I just start small?
And I was like, you know, I've been volunteering for a lot of educational organizations and stuff
around my area, teaching people just about native and non-native reptiles. And I was like, well,
why don't I start doing stuff like that? So I started just unofficially, you know, not on paper,
you know, not on paper, not with any paperwork or, you know, official tax filing, just doing
educational stuff. And it very like quickly ramped up to where like, it was like, Oh, you know,
this person's calling and they want a presentation. This person's calling. They want a presentation
here. This person came to me and they're like, Hey, we saw you doing this presentation. We have
a ball python. We can't take care of, can you take this? And I was like, okay. Right. And I was like,
sure. You know, and that just kind of happened so quickly over the course of like, I would say like
a year, things just started like ramping up really quick while I was doing a lot of this stuff.
And there was an older guy in our community in Sedona that used to do a lot of educational stuff
and he had a small group that he had put together that would do education around the community for
reptiles and whatnot. And he was deciding that he wanted to retire and he wanted somebody that
could like kind of take over that kind of aspect of things in our area. So he came to me at a certain
point and I'm not sure if this was like right as I was starting Sonoran reptiles officially,
or if it was like just before and he was like, Hey, he's like all these shows that we do.
He's like, you take them. And he's like, and all these animals that I have, you take them.
I was like, okay. So I started Sonoran reptiles and it kind of escalated from like, just doing
that to like, when I decided, Hey, you know, I want to do a nonprofit because, you know,
I think, you know, the structure as for what we're doing kind of fits the nonprofit bill.
Also, I feel like, you know, being somebody who doesn't come from a lot of money as when you have
a nonprofit, it's not that it's more lucrative than a for business thing, because it's not,
especially not like lucrative as on a personal level, like, right, like I'm not making any money.
But in terms of like getting started, there's a lot less like cost involved, like getting started
up with a nonprofit in the sense that, you know, you can get support, you can get donations,
you don't need to pay taxes on the things that you're doing. So when you're smaller,
I think it's a lot easier from that aspect. So I went in and I started filing all the paperwork.
I got, I don't know what you would call it, but somebody who knows tax paperwork,
like an accountant kind of person,
Yeah, to help file all that stuff and get it all set up. And I was just like, oh, you know,
it was very much like winging it. It was like, I know this person runs a nonprofit. Let me ask them
what they did. And then they would give me a little bit of advice and I just go start doing that.
And then it was like, oh, well, you need a board. And I was like, oh, okay. So I just started going
around. I was like, you know, this person volunteered with this group and they're involved
with the reptile community. Go ask them, go ask this person, go ask this person. So I just started
asking people around me who I knew cared about reptiles, not even people who I really associated
with very closely, just people who I knew cared about reptiles. And I built my board basically
that way over the course of like a month. And then we filed it. And then, you know, we filed our
nonprofit paperwork literally as everything was shutting down for COVID-19 in 2020. It was like
right in the middle of March. So the paperwork took forever to go through and actually get filed
once it was approved, once it was filed. And then it just kind of just kept going from there.
All during that time, I was working a full-time job doing sales at an art gallery in Sedona.
So that was basically what I was doing for money for myself and to help support everything that I
was doing because it does cost a lot of money. It costs a lot of money to do that, to do this kind
of stuff. Even just the education side, you know, buying like displays and buying like the startup
stuff, you know, tables, all that little stuff, it all adds up. So it does cost a lot of money.
I think that I've heard that a lot and I've experienced this and it very, every time I go
to buy anything for when I was with NCHS, it was like, man, this is the perfect example of selling
shovels to gold miners. Like there's no money in the gold, but the shovels, the poster boards,
the tablecloths, it's like, man, these are insane. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. So at that time, yeah, like I said, I was working sales. So I was making pretty good
money. I was making decent money. I had a job where that job was very lenient, you know, where I
could take time off if I needed to, I could move things around and I had very much a schedule that
I could do all this stuff around that. And then it eventually got to the point where, you know,
outside of just some personal things with that job and whatnot, like new management moved in.
I was kind of like getting burnt out from that. I was like, I'm tired of like selling stuff to people.
Like I just want to do animal stuff. You know, it's like, I've been making decent money for like
five years and you know, it hasn't really done much for my happiness. You know what I mean?
So I was kind of like, I just wanted to move into something where I could enjoy what I was doing a
little bit more and feel like I was actually like growing in the areas of my life that I wanted to.
So that's when I started doing the vet tech job. I picked up the vet tech job.
And that's been great. You know, it's been a learning experience on a whole bunch of levels.
Just, you know, everything from like what you would expect, right? Like learning about medicine
and treating animals and such. Even down to like just really change, like putting a new perspective
on like how different aspects of the animal world communicate, you know, working in zoos and
sanctuaries, doing the educational thing, and then moving into the veterinary side. You know,
you'd think it would all be very similar, but it's all very different. It's just, you know,
it's just, it just, it just is different the way that people think about animals and the way that
you see them is different versus like a zoo or, you know, obviously like pets and then stuff like
that. So it's, it's all different. So it's interesting to see those different perspectives of things.
And then recently got picked up on the out of Africa thing. So that was a pretty new
development. That was, I want to say a new development is probably about two months ago now,
at least. So I've only been there for a short period of time, but.
Yeah. And I know that we, we, again, we kind of discussed this a little bit off the air and now
we're doing it again on the air, but it sounds like with each different area you've been in with
animals, it sounds like it's like a dice, right? Like there's, it's the same piece. It's all the
same thing. It's centered around, but there's different like perspectives or different goals
or missions with each thing. Oh yeah. There's different things with, you know, with your,
your pet at home versus the pet that's in front of you at the vet clinic versus the animal that
comes in to the rescue versus what's at the zoo. Like could you talk a little bit about more of
what those different perspectives look like and what you mean by that? Gosh. Yeah. I think just to,
I can get too deep with that because like I've been thinking about it a lot recently, but like
for example, when you work in the rescue or sanctuary world, right. You know, there's,
there's like, I think you could kind of guess it from the outside, right? Like there's stereotypes,
right? If you're running, if you go into a rescue, your stereotype in your head is a whole bunch of
animals, right? With like maybe minimal care. That's like stereotype. Now that's not good.
And that's not necessarily the case a majority of the time, but that becomes the stereotype
when people think of a rescue or something like that, right? Animals that were poorly taken care
of. Now there's a bunch of them in this rescue and they're not being poorly taken care of.
And they're not being poorly taken care of anymore, but you know, it's minimal space,
minimal, you know, whatever. And then rehoming or whatever it is. Or if it's, you know, a sanctuary,
then it's permanent sanctuary and stuff like that. Example would be like something like Phoenix Herp
sanctuary, where they provide permanent sanctuary to tons of animals that just can't be pets.
And when you're in that world, your mindset is very much like, what it is, is like, how do you help
the most animals the most effectively, right? Because there's so many animals that get dropped
off that people can't take care of and stuff like that. And you have to really balance
taking in all those animals, right? And providing them the like good care. But I don't think that
the mindset's not usually like, what is the absolute best care for this animal? It's how do
we get this animal its basic needs, right? And then move on to the next. So it's helping a large
amount of animals. And again, I want to emphasize that it doesn't mean that those animals are being
taken care of, but it's not, you know, they're not in giant zoo enclosures. It's different, right?
And then to just kind of like, because I know that there is a little bit of that judgment and
that self-judgment that you kind of experience as a rescuer. Like my personal pet leopard gecko
had super pretty enclosure, super good, you know, in my opinion, a really good setup. But then the
rescues that we would bring in, like they would have paper towel substrates, it'd be in a small
tote. Like it's very much about efficiency. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean bad
for the animal. It's just, it's a different mindset is what I was, you know, like I'm saying here.
Exactly.
Yeah. So I think, I think, so you can kind of understand that it's not that, you know,
it's very much about how do we effectively provide, you know, the basic needs for as many animals as
possible, right? So you're constantly trying to help these animals and bring them in. And it's
a very much like not money-based at all. Like, like I don't like when an animal comes in for,
for like scenario, someone drops something off. Never, ever do I ever think how much money is
this going to cost. It never, it's just like, let's do it. Let's get it going. And, you know,
it costs money, you know, it ends up costing like hundreds of dollars sometimes per animal that comes
in. If you have to put together all new enclosures, because usually if someone's not taking care of a
bearded dragon, they're not dropping it off in the nicest display enclosure that, you know, you want
to keep it in forever. It's usually in like a 20 gallon tank that you have to move it out of and
put something, build something bigger for it. So every single animal is associated with a huge cost.
But you never think about that. It's how do we effectively take care of this animal, right?
And it's not, again, like I said, it's not to say that cost is an aspect because it always is.
And then when you move into like the zoo world, it's a lot less quantity-based
and it's a lot more quality-based. So you have, you go from having a ton of animals meeting their
baseline to you're not really helping any animals necessarily, right? You have a handful of animals
that are on display and maybe, you know, the zoo sends some money for conservation work. Maybe you're
help doing some research for some certain species, but you have like 40 animals, right? Like in a,
like, for example, the reptile department in Africa, you have like 40 animals, right? And it's like
out of those 40 animals, like your only goal is how do I make their enclosures look nice for people?
How do I give them the optimum care so they live the longest? And that just becomes it, right? So
it's a very individual-based and there's a lot more like personal attachment to those animals,
which is I think a very like, it is an interesting mindset because you have to, you switch from,
what do you do to take care of these animals, like their basic needs? And you switch from
education and stuff like that to more towards, you know, focusing on almost like their pets.
And I would say that it's pretty similar in an aspect to a hobbyist, like keeping a pet,
where, you know, if you have one, you know, green iguana, I see this all the time on like the
internet, people have like one pet green iguana and like they deck out their whole room to take
care of this one green iguana, you know what I mean? And it's like, it's super cool. So you kind
of get like that aspect of it, where it's a lot more focused, which is great. Because I think your
quality is better, but your impact is probably a little bit less in terms of what you're doing for
the animals in general. Like, you know, if you want to give a green iguana a hundred foot by a
hundred foot enclosure, you know, you're very limited on how many green iguanas you can take in,
if there are rescues and stuff like that, right? And then when you move into the vet world,
it's very, it's very interesting because it's like, for me, it was totally different, like the way
that people think about animals, because it's a lot more like, and I think I've talked to you about
this before, it's a lot more like finance based. And it's not to say that anybody in the vet world
does what they do because of money, but you make money because of what you do right with the animals.
So when you work at a zoo, people pay you money to take the most care of those animals. People pay
you money to make these beautiful giant enclosures that these animals look super cool in. That's
what you get paid to do, right? When you're at a sanctuary, you get paid to take in and provide a
better life for animals, right? Whether, and that's not necessarily like, you know, you could
charge like a surrender fee or something like that, but your grants and stuff, the stuff that
people pay you for, like the reason you get your grants is because you're helping those animals.
So the more you take in animals and give them a better life and show that you can do that
functionally and effectively, the more money you make, right? The more successful you are,
because you're making a bigger impact. The bigger the impact you make, the more you're likely to
get grants and stuff and be supported by your community. When it comes to like the vet world,
you're getting paid to treat the animals, but you're getting paid by the people who own them,
not yourself. You know what I mean? So people bring you these animals and it's like,
okay, you know, this animal has an abscess in its face, for example, right? Okay. Yeah. This is a
perfect example. That beautiful dragon you saw when you were over at my place, had a big little
abscess on its head right above its eye. It turns out to be its sinus. I think it was its sinuses
had gotten infected and turned into an abscess and it was just as bulge. It came out. Me knowing
what I know, working in the vet world, working in the rescue world and being able to take care of
those animals, I was able to go in there, pop out a big chunk of pus and clean that out and start
that animal antibiotics. And it cost me nothing. That cost me $0 to do, right? 100% free. I got
I got a big vial of antibiotics for my work for like 20 bucks at cost. And I have enough that I
could use it for other animals. Like it costs virtually nothing to take care of that animal.
But if another person was to take that animal into a vet clinic, not having that experience,
knowledge and ability, they would take that animal to a vet clinic and it would cost them like 80
bucks for an exam. And then, you know, it'd probably be some lab work, blood work or something is
associated. There'd be like a wound cleaning charge and there'd be the charge of the antibiotics.
By the time they walk out of there at a cheap clinic, they're going to be paying like 300 bucks
up to like even like maybe $1,000, depending on what goes on, right? If you don't have that money,
guess what happens? That animal dies. You either let that animal degrade because you don't have
any way to pay it. So you just let it go. Or like the vet clinic might euthanize it for you because
a euthanasia charge is a lot less than treatment charge for some things like that. Right? So,
so it's very different in that way. Because it's more finance driven. It's very strange,
I think for me coming from the, because it's like, yes, best care for the animal is the priority,
but it's with like only with a, what is it, with a cost, right? It can only happen if the money's
available in that sense, which in all the other aspects of animal care, money has to be available.
But the pay structure and where you're getting paid is and how and why is different,
right? If that makes any sense. So, I don't know, it's just, it's just interesting.
And I think because of that, people have a different perspective on things.
I think like, you know, from working there, like it's made me feel when I like take in
bunches of animals and I'm able to pay for, you know, all this care for these animals,
I have a perspective on it of, you know, I have funding from the organization, right?
Take care of animals. I have my own experience and stuff, so I can do a lot of things on my own.
So it's the cost per animal goes down, right? As you know what you're doing and as you're more
capable of doing these things, you have those resources versus like if you're a regular person,
the cost per animal is a lot higher. You know, the amount it costs me to take care of a bearded
dragon every single year is probably like half, if not less than half, especially if you take
into consideration vet costs for the average person. So it kind of puts a perspective on me
of like, you know, as like someone looking into the reptile hobby or the animal keeping world
in general, whether it's a dog or cat or a, or, or boa, I don't think most people understand how
expensive it is to keep an animal. So it gives you this perspective of almost like, you know,
should most people be having pets and, you know, should they, how many pets should you be able to
have? Not in the sense that I think that we should restrict people from having pets or anything like
that, but I just don't think that a majority of people realize what it actually costs and what
it actually takes to have a pet or to have a, you know, a dog or a cat, or even a bearded dragon,
because I think the bare minimum that it takes to keep them alive might seem low, but if you're
actually going to take good care of them, you're going to take them to the vet when they need to,
you're going to get the procedures done when they need done and that kind of stuff, or like
provide them good quality care and enrichment that costs a lot. And I think, you know, working at
the vet field, it's really put a perspective on me of like most people, I don't think have that
perspective or even capability a lot of the times. And it's kind of sad, you know, when you see it,
and it makes sense to me, it kind of comes full circle, why these animals get dropped off with us,
right? Because before it's like, oh, well, why did you get this bearded dragon if you can't take
care of it, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then you get, I got to see that other aspect of like, oh,
this person just went into the vet and they told them it's going to cost them a thousand dollars
to do what I just did for free in two seconds, right? So it's just, yeah, it's just interesting
to see all those different perspectives around, like you said, these different sides to the same dice.
Yeah. And I think that's such an interesting thing too, because that's just, I mean,
just the things you're touching on there is, I don't know,
I feel we could have a whole other hour and a half long conversation about
if people should have certain pets, which is like such a weird thing to say, right? Like I'm
definitely not one to say, if you're taking care of them, they're hitting the five freedoms
of animal husbandry. Yes. If you can afford it, do whatever. I get it. But also it's like,
I don't know, it's like the cute animal syndrome. Like they go into a pet co and they see the super
cute baby bearded dragon. It's standing at the glass. It's waving at them. They think it's like
it's cute as fricking thing. And I, when I was talking to Victoria from house of voodoo reptile
sanctuary, it's like, I got my bearded dragon for free from a friend. And, you know, it ended up
being the most expensive free animal that I could have ever imagined. Cause I get it home. And then
I was like, I should Google how to take care of this thing. And it's like four or 500 bucks just
to get the initial enclosure, like 20, 30 bucks a week for food when they're babies. And then I had
to, like you were just saying, I had to take my bearded dragon to the vet for an abscess on her
mouth. And the, you know, the vet's like, Oh, we need to do this, this, this. And I ended up getting
a $400 picture of her taken for an X-ray. I think it was like 200, but it's like, these things are
crazy expensive. And you know, unfortunately, unfortunately, fortunately, there's nothing
they could really do to help her because it is in such a weird spot. So they're kind of just like,
Oh, just drain the abscess and like, just do whatever you can to, you know, just make sure
she's eating. And I'm like, it costs me $700 for you to tell me that. But it's like, I didn't have
the experience. And like, I didn't know any better. And it's, you know, it's, again, it's one of those
hard things. It's like, you, you got to go to the expert to be better safe than sorry. But that,
that value of knowledge is like, not as, I don't know, I feel like that could be more
prevalently explained. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's, I think that's an
important part of, I think what we do is like, you know, rescues, I think one of the biggest
parts of rescues of a good rescue is education. And I think that's a, that's a big part of it is,
you know, I think, you know, even I'm guilty of this to some extent, you know, our education
curriculum for like presentations and stuff is very much, you know, obviously based around like
native animals, based around conservation and understanding and stuff. Part of the problem that
comes with it is like, you know, we're teaching people to love reptiles, and then they go and they
get a pet reptile, and then they don't know what to do with it. And then it ends up at our sanctuary
because they didn't know what to do. So it's almost like this full circle effect. And I think we need
to be better at teaching people the importance of doing research and like knowing what goes into it
all. And I think that stuff isn't completely out there, especially when it comes to like, what kind
of financial responsibility are you going to be looking at? Like what you said, like you said,
with your bearded dragon, you know, getting all that enclosure set up, but then like there's so
much maintenance that goes alongside of it. And if you don't know, you know, if you didn't do your
research good enough around the first time, you know, something goes wrong or just something goes
wrong because things go wrong, right? With their animals. And you have to take it to a vet. It's
like, okay, well, now you have to pay your vet fees. And most people don't have any idea how much
that usually is. And then you have to find a vet that like can treat exotics. And then you have to
find a vet that like will treat exotics, but also knows how to treat exotics, because those are two
different things, right? Some vets will treat exotics, but don't know what they're doing.
So that adds an aspect to it. You know, if you live in a small town somewhere,
you know, be ready to drive an hour or two hours to a larger city where you can get a specialist,
you know, to see your bearded dragon for something silly, you know.
And just doing that background or that research before you even get the animals,
like those things you don't even think of. Yeah. And I feel like that's another thing that people
don't typically like to think about is what happens when things go wrong. They just kind of
think to themselves like, oh, well, I'll just, you know, I'll just do everything I can to make
sure nothing bad happens. It's like, yes, preventative medicine is the best medicine. But
again, when you have silly little animals running around, like what is it like with horses? They
always say like, you know, they they'll cut themselves on air. Like, like, you'll look at
them funny and they'll be like, I have a colic. And it's like the same thing with a lot of animals.
Like these things just happen. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
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you'll reach in just a few weeks. And we're getting kind of close to the hour, but I did
want to hear a little bit more about when it comes to you and your work at Out of Africa,
and I really do enjoy this discussion we've had about the difference between the rescue slash
sanctuary, a zoo, pet, and vet. I feel like there's some kind of cutesy continuum graphic
that we can make that explains those differences. There's something there, but the thing that caught
my eye the most with that was with the zoo, it's less quantity, more quality. And can you just talk
for just a few minutes a little bit about what your goals are there and why Out of Africa reached
out to you specifically to help them out with their reptile department?
Yeah, so obviously I've talked to you a bit about this, but to reiterate for the audience too.
So obviously I work as a vet tech currently, and I run Sonoran Reptiles, so that's a lot of stuff to
do, but I do the vet tech job part-time. So Out of Africa called me at a certain point and they said,
you know, I had interned there for a little while, some odd years back, maybe like 2021.
And they called me and they said, hey, you know, our reptile department is getting really thin.
They were like, we have two people there at the moment. I think full staff for them is like four
people. They have two people there. One of them's never worked in a zoo before, not much experience
and stuff. So they're really slim on care. And their previous manager had left,
and they had been having a hard time finding somebody to move in there. Not only that, but
they were kind of dissatisfied with the way that the department had been looking for the last couple
of years. Everything has kind of gotten stripped down to the bare minimum. They felt like the
husbandry was a little bit off in some places, and they just really wanted to make the place like,
just bring it to life. Like verbatim, their words was, we want to bring life back into the reptile
department. I was like, okay, you know, I can do that. They're like, they called me and they said,
hey, you know, we've talked to this person, we've talked to this person at the park. They all
recommended you. I said, basically, I was like, if you want me to go on there full time as a manager,
it's going to cost X, right? That's what I need to pay my bills. Not a crap ton of money,
not a crap ton of money, but zoos and sanctuaries are notorious for paying very low,
minimum wage or close to, because there's just not a whole ton of money in it, right?
And it's a very competitive, usually competitive, you know, job market in the sense that everybody
wants to work at a zoo. Obviously, in this case, it's a little bit different. So they were like,
well, you know, we can't, we can't do that. We don't have the money and the resources to pay
you that much. And they're like, so if you know anybody, please let us know. So I was like, okay,
no problem. A couple of days later, they called back and they're like, hey, we called around at
a couple of different places to ask if they knew of anyone that we might be able to hire.
And they're like, and everybody keeps saying you. I was like, okay. So I was like, are you going to
pay me? And they're like, what can you do? Because basically, if I was going to quit my vet tech job,
I wouldn't to replace that job, I would need to make at least X amount of money at so many
hours, right? To pay my bills. So they were like, well, so I was like, well, if I don't
quit my vet tech job and I just do this on all the other off time that I have left, so I don't have
any life. I was like, I can do it at whatever the rate you're able to pay is. So I took the job
and I'm there just a few days a week. But I go there and basically I've been going through and
I've just been trying to, you know, when I got there, there's the person who built the place,
Dean was the original owner. And I should, you know, his wife is running the place now.
Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago. I know from when I met him that part of what he
liked is giving animals a lot of space, right? He wanted animals to have places to go to Rome
and to have, you know, interactions with other animals. There's a lot of cohabitation and stuff
there, which I think is cool, you know, as long as it's done safely and intelligently.
So the enclosures are big, but they're just really like not optimized. Now what I mean is,
is like, I've shown you pictures before, but they have these things called the bays where they keep
their giant snakes and they're probably like, I don't know, like, and maybe this is like, I would
say like, maybe like somewhere between like, I'd say like 15 feet wide by like six feet tall,
by like six feet deep, right? They're pretty big enclosures for like, you know, a reticulated Python.
So they're decent size, you know, it's adequate enough space. The snake can move around, they got
these big pools in them, but there's like nothing in them. So it's literally a concrete base with
their pool. And majority of them, they have like a couple of little like shelves that are made like,
like to look like kind of realistic rock that are coming down. So they can kind of get up on these
shelves, but they're just barren. They look like literal rock caves, like they're just empty. Like
it's like, there's nothing in them. There's nothing for the animals to do. And what I found out is,
is there used to be logs and like stuff for them to climb on. There used to be like live plants and
stuff in there. And all that stuff had been like taken out by previous management. And you know,
the owners expressed to me like that the previous management like did that stuff and then just
didn't ask them about it. They just took it out. So they didn't feel like, like there was always
like some sort of issue with it, right? Things that I felt like could have been worked around or like
were kind of like not a huge issue. For example, there's scorpions that get inside those things.
If anyone doesn't know here in Arizona, we have scorpions. Some of them are potentially dangerous,
especially to like animals like reptiles, they can get stung and they can potentially die.
So scorpions will get in these cages. And one of the reasons that the previous management had taken
the logs and stuff out, like the decorations, they said that there was scorpions hiding in them.
That's fair. But my approach is to it was, you know, the scorpions are still in there. Like they
still go through, we have to find the scorpions and take them out because they still get inside
of these things. So it doesn't matter if there's logs in there for the animals, they can still
hide in them. Or the scorpions are getting in either way. So our focus needs to be like,
how do we stop the scorpions getting in and blah, blah, blah. But not to go on to like too much
of a rant on that specific topic, but it's like things like that, where it's like, I've been
putting in, you know, we've been decorating the enclosures, putting in logs, planting regal plants
and stuff like that. So just making the whole place look a little bit better. And then the
husbandry, right? Going through and kind of like fixing a lot of like little stuff that's like
kind of going on, like for example, since we're on the topic of those bays, those things are like
insulated boxes that they keep the humidity between like 80 and 90% in, which is like, okay,
you know, it's a reticulated Python, but they're like these stagnant boxes, there's no air
circulation. They just sit there. So a lot of the snakes were having like respiratory issues,
chronically coming back up and stuff like that. Because there's no system in place to help
aerate and vent those enclosures so that we can keep the humidity up and also, you know,
make sure there's no overgrowth of like bacteria and stuff to cause any sort of, you know, skin
issues or respiratory issues and stuff like that. So it's like, it's been a lot of like improving
that kind of stuff. And really my goal there has been one husbandry and two, making the place a
nice experience for experience for guests to see, right? It's not a good experience when you go
there and you just see a snake in a big empty box. You know, when you have like stuff around it,
you feel like the thing is living like a naturalistic-esque life. It's a lot more
of a better experience for like people to go there. And part of what I've been trying to instill
into the team there is like, you know, I feel like a lot of times the attitude, especially when you
work at a zoo and it's like, if you're only going to work there for like a few years or so, it's
like the attitude becomes like, you know, how do I make this easy for me and just get through my day,
right? And trying to reorient people to motivate them to be like, well, one, as a zookeeper,
your number one job is taking the utmost care of the animals. You know, these are individual animals
that are here. They're not getting replaced unless they die. How do we keep them alive and give them
the best life possible, right? So optimizing care as if they were like your own personal pet. It's
like, yes, I know you're probably going to work here for like two, four years and then leave. And
it's going to be someone else's problem. But how do we take care of these animals as if they were
our own pet, as if we wanted them to live forever? You know what I mean? Like how do we try to make
that happen? Right. And then two, it becomes creating a good guest experience, you know,
making sure that people come back to view these things. Because when you're at a zoo,
that's a for-profit company that makes money off of people visiting. It's easy to go there and be
like, oh, you know, we just feed and take care of these animals. But if people don't come to the zoo,
if people don't come to visit those animals, where's the money going to come from to pay for
those animals food and to pay for your paycheck? Right. So that's like the number one thing is
making sure that it's a positive experience for all the people that are going there. Not just,
oh, I don't want, you know, this and that enclosure because then I have to clean it every week.
You know what I mean? So there's been a lot of that kind of thing that it's been like, you know,
how do we redirect towards like making this the best place to live as an animal for the animals?
And then making it a good experience for the people that are visiting because, you know,
the happier those animals are, the better they're doing and the better their enclosures look,
the better the experience for the people. Because it all ties in, you know, people want to see the
animals in naturalistic enclosures. People want to see the animals thriving. They want to see them
healthy. They want to see them interacting. You know, if you have a snake that's sitting on a
concrete floor, you know, it's like, oh, cool, big snake. But, you know, if you have logs and stuff
in there, it's hiding in the bushes. People go up and they look in the enclosures and they're like,
oh, where is it? Where is it? Oh, it's behind that bush, you know, or like, you know, oh, it's up,
it's up on top of that log, like climbing up there, you know, that kind of stuff. Right.
First, it's just like, oh, there's a snake on the ground. Next one.
You know, maintaining that naturalistic behavior so that people can, you know, they're not like
you're just saying they're not just seeing a snake in a box. They're seeing a snake exhibiting
natural behaviors in an environment that's designed for them. And yeah, I feel like that, gosh, what's
like not as apathetic, like people start feeling like as time goes on, we just need to make sure
that we can do this as fast and easy as possible. Yeah. On benefit rather than the benefit of the
animal. Yeah, yeah. And there's always a balance, you know, but especially with a zoo. Like I said,
there's like that, that, that difference there between like sanctuary and zoo where, and they
do blend over, there's a balance, right? Like sanctuary is a lot more like, how do we do this
efficiently so we can provide care for all these animals? And we don't care about the looks too
much necessarily. We just want it to work for them and then be healthy. Whereas the zoos
has an emphasis as well on the looks of it. And, and then there's a balance because one, you know,
obviously you have to have the time to be able to take care of the animals in the zoo, not just
be doing maintenance on like plants and stuff all day. And then two, that naturalistic stuff,
but co-habiting animals that are from like, you know, similar regions to the other, they don't
mess with each other, like iguanas and tortoises or something. Or like putting logs and trees and
stuff in there for them to climb in and hide in, helps simulate natural behaviors and give them
enrichment that is really just going to make them happier and make them feel more like they're in
the wild and make them feel more, you know, I really think that animals can get depressed
to a certain extent. I don't think depressed the way that we do, but it definitely bogs them down
mentally. Like you can tell when an animal is like inside of like a tupperware its whole life
versus an animal that's in a big enclosure where it's moving around. There's a lot more like
inquisitiveness and there's a lot more like, kind of like, I don't know, just interest from the
animals end. Like you can tell that that animal's experiencing things. Everything on this planet
learns the same way we do, you know, cause and effect. They go around in their environment,
they do things, they learn that when they do this, this happens. They go up and they're building
these neural networks in their brains, their little tiny brains, just the same way we do.
So when you have an animal that's allowed to do all that its entire life, you get a lot,
a much more smart animal. You get friendlier animals, I think towards people, you get animals
that I think generally are just smarter and like tend to live longer. Cause I think they're happier
and they're more active. You know what I mean? Versus animals that are just kind of like,
you know, I'm alive, I'm here. You know, it's like a person who's like, you know, going out and like
living their life and they go out and hike and stuff like that, you know, or active person versus
someone who hangs out in their house and watches TV. Like the person who hangs out in their house,
watches TV, you know, potato chips all day is happy. You know, they're fine. They're alive,
but you know, they're not probably not going to be as, you know, long lived as somebody who's
more active and whatnot. So I think the same thing does kind of apply to animals.
Yeah, no, I definitely hear that that it's like, again, that kind of just goes to standards of care.
Like you can do the bare minimum, whether, I mean, again, we could do a whole other episode about,
you know, what's the bare minimum for yourself, like take care of yourself, like you would the
ideal care for a critter, but when you're providing that care to an animal, like it sounds like,
especially in the zoo, it sounds like there's so many benefits to treating those animals with the
utmost respect, making sure they have all those freedoms to, you know, natural behaviors, health,
their enclosures are set up like a five star resort for them. Yeah, because that's a better
experience for the guests, they're more likely to come back. And again, it's, it's such a weird
balance that we kind of face as people in the animal industry of making sure that it's not
just about the money, but it's, it's impossible to deny the importance of that animal.
Because like even you said, if I had a million dollars, you know, how many animals I could help
with that? Like that's, that's really the forefront, but yeah. Right.
And I think, yeah, I think, you know, I think that that's part of the thing is that there's just not
a lot of funding for animal welfare is what it comes down to, you know, if there was enough
funding for animal welfare, you know, places like the Phoenix Herb sanctuary, who's the largest
reptile sanctuary in the United States could have a 20 acre lot and give every single animal there,
like 10 times the amount of space they have, you know. So it's like things like that. It's like,
it's not that people aren't out there doing the work and are willing to do it. It's just that
there's, you know, there needs to be more people willing to support it. There needs to be more
funding towards it, you know. Exactly. But in terms of out of Africa and Sonoran reptiles,
if folks wanted to be the people that fund and donate and help out monetarily,
where would be the best place for them to go in order to do so?
Yeah. Well, if you want to help out Sonoran Reptiles, the organization that I run,
you can just look up, look us up online. Sonoran Reptiles will pop up with the first one.
There's sonoranreptiles.com is our website. You can donate on there, you know, also,
if you're in the Arizona area, we take donations for, you know, all kinds of things, supplies and
stuff like that. And, you know, help out other organizations, you know, I, you know, I always
like to tell people, you know, it's not, you know, it's all community effort, you know.
You know, we get calls from other groups all the time, you know, they have things that are
leftover that they're going to get rid of and they send it our way that they're like, do you need this?
Do you want this? Yeah, look up, you know, a rescue in your area, make sure that they have
a 501C3 IRS tax ID so that they can, you can confirm that they are in fact a nonprofit.
So that, you know, they're reporting to somebody about what they're doing with the money and making
sure it's going to animals. But yeah, find those groups, support them in any way you can donating,
you know, you would be surprised the things that like organizations like that need to,
if you don't take care of reptiles, you have like a pet leopard gecko, but you love animals,
watch animals on YouTube. If you have like, you know, like a pet leopard gecko,
like office supplies, go donate that. Like they use that, we use that stuff, you know what I mean?
Like all that kind of stuff helps in the long run because if we don't have to buy, you know,
stuff like that, that's more money that goes towards the animals in the end, you know,
that's more money left over for animals. So yeah, and then out of Africa, if you're in Arizona,
go visit the park, it's in Camp Verde, Arizona. Come see the work we've been doing on the reptile department.
Perfect. Yeah. And all the information, the websites, social media, everything will be linked
down in the show notes below. But Brett, thank you for hanging out with me and sharing some
info about our scaly friends. Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
For sure. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode of the Within Range Coaching Podcast.
I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Brett from Sonoran Reptiles and Out of Africa Wildlife
Park. It's really clear that the way that we care for our animals, especially in captivity,
can have a profound impact on their well-being and longevity. If you're passionate about animal
welfare, consider supporting organizations like Sonoran Reptiles or your local wildlife sanctuary.
Every little bit helps, whether it's a donation, volunteering your time, or even just spreading
the word on social media. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate,
and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feed pack helps us reach more
people that want to help make the world a better place. Until next time, keep caring for our planet
and all its inhabitants, and have fun, stay safe, and be yourself.