Hello and welcome back to Illumination, the Disney
Lorkana podcast. My name is Max. I'm Sam. Cliff.
Cliff's here. And Ellie's here. So we have some
news that is rather upsetting to Cliff and Ellie.
And that is two cards as of this very day, that
would be the 8th of April 2025, have received
a... ban in core constructed what does that mean
it means the card is no longer allowed to be
played in core constructed this is a little bit
different from what we saw with bucky where the
card was revised and an errata card was created
that will not happen with these two cards what
will happen is they're simply not allowed to
be played in core constructed until deemed otherwise
the two cards in question one is fortisphere
the other is hyrum flaversham toy maker that
is the four cost one when it enters or quests.
You can banish an item. If you banish an item,
you get to draw two. cards. So we're bringing
you a rather unfiltered episode here. It probably
won't have the most use other than just letting
you all know our thoughts, trying to think of
where do we go from here in the immediate future?
How does this impact us in the long term? And
just allowing you hopefully to feel like you're
not alone in your thoughts. You're either maybe
you're a little happier, maybe you're a little
bit more aggravated, or maybe you're just seeing
past the cards themselves that were dealt with.
and you're more worried about the impacts of
the idea of a ban. So let's get right into it.
We're talking bans this time. How do we feel
about ban versus errata in this particular case?
Are we happier with a ban than an errata of these
two cards? Yes. Oh, I see. Why? A ban means that
the cards can come back in the future. That is
very true. Cliff, how do you feel? 100 % support
banning over eroding. Eroding should only be
used to clean up text boxes, print errors in
grammar or whatever. making something more clear
and concise. Eroting is the worst option for
physical media. Yeah, I totally agree. We saw
some of that particular cleanup in first chapter
cards, right? Like support was mislabeled and
I think Pacha was misspelled on work together
and Befuddle had an error because it got around
having a chosen in the text box. So everything
you said, I fully agree with. Totally cogent
when it comes to cleaning up a... grammatical
or mechanical issue simply changing an entire
card with physical media is much much more difficult
right like you have to figure out a way to get
a card to everyone explain to people who open
it read it and see it as printed that is not
you are seeing it wrong that is not how it actually
is is a much more difficult experience than going
oh by the way that card you opened it's a little
too good you can't actually play it in the game
right now Right, yeah. The banning, it allows
them to bring it back at some point in the future
if they believe the game has progressed to a
point where the cards may no longer be an issue,
which is a much better version of routing it.
Because now if they want to, for the example
of Bucky, bring Bucky back, they'd have to then
print more versions. of the original one and
tell people the promos that they all handed out
that were the eroded fixed versions are the ones
that are no longer illegal, which makes it way
more complicated and confusing. Right, so we
can safely say Bucky's never coming back in his
Rise of the Flood -born form. I would argue that
he'd be fine right now. Yeah, I agree with you
there, too. Sam, anything to add to the concept
of ban versus errata? no more to add no more
to add all right then how do we feel about this
versus one of the other big topics that was being
discussed a rotation meaning that certain sets
as they progress to a certain age would no longer
be playable in the format we know is core constructed
you see this in other games where it would maybe
make a core constructed format and then like
a I don't know, ancient core constructed format
where you could play with everything versus playing
with only the newest sets of cards in order to
breathe some freshness into the game. Cliff,
I'll start with you. So I think rotating sets
currently in Lorkana would be a bad thing as
there's not enough cards. I think for the longevity
of the game and the health of the game, they
will have to institute it at some point. For
R &D, it's easier because if they take the Yu
-Gi -Oh route you're always worried about, is
the card that I printed today going to interact
weirdly with a card that got printed 25 years
ago, right? So you save yourself from that. While
it can still pop up in like ancient, we'll call
it like their extended legacy vintage, ancient
Lorkana, you worry about those things less and
that's when you handle bans of things in those
cases. Like, hey, we didn't think this card from
set two could ever do this thing, but these years
the cards allow it. So I think right now rotating
bad. In the future, it will have to be done just
for the health of the game. That's fair. Sam,
what do you think? Yeah, I agree. I think it's
too soon for a ban. I don't think we have enough
cards that if we were only allowed to play, say,
sets four to current, we don't have enough cards
that it would make sense, I don't think. That's
fair. I think that there are a lot of... issues
if you don't rotate eventually because there's
only going to be a small percentage of cards
that are good enough to be played and it's going
to be much much harder for cards to join that
coveted spot because it just doesn't change enough
of the game that like, Oh, a set came out and
two cards are playable and core constructed.
It starts to get to that level. Right. You also
don't need to keep the power creep, like the
pedal to metal as hard on power creep to push
out the older cards. Right. Cause like a couple
of times, at least in magic, they've printed
inherently weaker sets to reign the power creep
back in of their standard or core thing to reign
in where their R and D had gone. Absolutely.
So I think that good positives there. I think
they did, if they were going to make this choice,
I think that they did it the right way. Counter
to that is the way that this was done seemed
extraordinarily abrupt. And the ban is effective
as of the day it was announced. As of time of
recording, that's again the 8th of April 2025,
there is no announced DLCs. World still has not
gotten a firm date yet. So there's nothing going
on at a higher level until our set championships
start in the very beginning of May. So I'm not
really sure why we banned a card and made it
effective that very day as opposed to waiting
a little bit to give us a chance to finish. up
tournaments players are already obligated to
at their local store level and be able to use
their cards that they had just gotten i mean
this isn't too many this is what two weeks after
big box release big store release so we haven't
had a lot of time to really play with the cards
yet so maybe i just finally got my fourth tamatoa
and uh yep got here in the mail and now i can
put it right into my trade binder because i can't
play with it really or at least not yet till
i figure out what what to play it in because
the decks it was popular and now all kind of
got shot pretty hard by the banning of these
cards. Or you're a newer player that saw somebody
playing like a Blue Red or a Blue Steel and was
like, oh, that looks really cool. I've played
other card games. I like how that deck operates
and went online and ordered their Hirams to put
this deck together and now they don't even have
a chance to play with those cards. Yep. Exactly.
I can't finish it out at the tournament. I can't
play it at my locals for at least the next couple
of weeks to kind of give Hiram his... His send
-off. His send -off, a proper kind of burial
at sea. Now it's just abruptly like, take it
out of your deck because you can't play with
it at all. Because even Bucky's errata wasn't
effective immediately. No, it was not. We got
to run out. As a longtime Blue -Red, Blue Steel
player, I would like to have another week of
playing with my Hirams. draw my last couple of
cards off of them and then hope that they come
back one day in the future yeah exactly i think
there's just a little bit more of an elegant
way to do it i think that communication in general
we've talked about in the past needs an upgrade
pretty dramatically especially from the game
design team and the organized play folks i think
that having that idea of hey there are cards
we're aware of what this new tamatoa has created
in terms of a play pattern that's very oppressive
we're keeping an eye on it there are other cards
we're watching watching closely as well. So we
will let you guys know if we feel like we need
to move towards this decision would be at least
encouraging to know like, okay, I need to be
careful about how much of my time and money I'm
investing in certain strategies that might not
be viable in a couple of weeks, but just to go,
hey, all right, I got my cards. I can't use them
now. is pretty rough especially something like
Hiram like if I just wanted to finish up foiling
my cool new deck now all of a sudden that spikes
the price right like Hiram's down to an all -time
low so if you picked up the foils when it spiked
you're gonna lose a lot of money and that's tough
I mean I understand that it's a risk you take
with a luxury hobby like trading cards but it
still just creates a feels bad that could have
been mitigated at least partially by letting
this breathe a little bit more you also run the
risk of losing a bunch of like your player base
if they're newer to the game that liked a thing
it's like oh i just got into the game i spent
this money i liked this thing i can't do this
thing anymore how often do they do this right
it creates a lot of especially in a new game
it's just like oh this is our first set of bands
it's not the first time a card's kind of been
taken out of the game but if this is happening
this much happening Every was a set seven that
just came out. So we've had it happen twice now
in seven sets. So, I mean, that's not ridiculous
by any stretch traded bands are, I want to go
on record and say, I do think bands can be healthy
to keep a game fun and interesting. Absolutely.
But I think that while they, I think made the
best choice possible here, it feels like they
made it in the worst possible fashion by just
putting out a lack of explanatory text in the
article. There are also other websites covering
this news that knew about this ahead of time.
So it just feels like we kind of – us as the
players, the ones keeping the game alive, we're
the last ones to know. And that also creates
a little bit of a feels bad. Like we're just
all stuck left going, what? Yeah. Right. Yeah,
I think – This could have been, even if they
announced it today and said this is going to
be effective starting store champs. Because some
people, we have a tournament this weekend. It's
in four days. And we have to figure out what
we're playing now. Right. A lot of us have already
invested. Like if you're in an event in the next
week or two, you've paid the entry fee to get
in most likely. Because a lot of times stores
will give you a little bit of a discount for
registering ahead of time. But now you're invested.
So you can't just be like, well, I'll just lose
out on that money. And some people only have
one deck. We are fortunate enough that we can
put together another deck, but some people can't,
so what are they going to do for the four days
that they have to gather something? We're also
fortunate that we have a team, so we got to test
and hone what deck we wanted and cater it, whereas
if you're just by yourself and you only play
blue, red, or blue steel... You're in a world
of trouble trying to figure out what you want
to do for the event that you now have in four
days to figure out what to do. Yeah, and you
better hope you have the cards for it. Right.
It really puts people in a difficult pinch for,
again, no real reason with zero DLCs and zero
large events announced. Again, the next one being
Store Champs, which is multiple weeks away. So
it's like, why not just wait a little bit and
then have at it? Right. This is very, very strange.
Also, to kind of dovetail from the lack of explanatory
text in the announcement article, they kind of
offset that with a live Q &A with Steve Warner,
which I think is a really cool idea. Why not
speak directly to one of the game designers?
I think that's an amazing thing, and I do sincerely
hope that they keep doing those kinds of things.
But I think part of the issue is... When you're
doing this live back and forth right now, they're
holding it over Discord, and it's kind of a textual
back and forth where people are throwing up questions.
They're cherry -picking what questions they want
to answer and then answering it. Because we're
seeing this in real time, the questions they're
picking and the answers in some cases end up
being a little cryptic, and it can leave more
than the intended response as the actual answer.
You can read into it, and I'm sure that's not
the goal. They're trying to provide a surface
-level bit of comfort to the player base. But
when you're saying things like, we're pretty
sure, we're not being able to back up a lot of
what you're saying with actual data because we
haven't run a DLC since last year, there are
a lot of concerns when it's players like myself
who go, okay, well, what percentage of the people
were playing this deck? What percentage was this
deck converting? What is your major concern and
what are you basing it on? And otherwise, we're
hearing things like, we're pretty sure. It's
like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't want people to
lose out on being able to enjoy the hobby because
you are pretty sure. You also have the issue
with it being in text of if your opinions are
one way about something, how you read something.
may be different than how sam reads it or how
you read it right somebody else like oh i read
it this way it's like oh this is great or like
well i read it as this so there's like a lot
of ambiguousness to their vague answers to things
which is just like doubling down on like the
messy can like the messy communication absolutely
again i will second you that i want them to keep
doing stuff like this because they need some
kind of outreach and communication on stuff which
has been effectively none yes through The majority
of the lifespan of the game. Correct. So even
like, while this is like a messy, odd feeling,
like approach to it, I appreciate that they're
trying something. Agreed. Sam, anything you want
to add about this? No, I agree. Awesome. So let's
kind of look at how we're, where are we moving
to from here? Like, what are we going to do?
The cards are now band effective today. For me,
in terms of the cards themselves, it impacts
me personally very little. I was not the best
blue player. I was not a blue enjoyer. It's just
not my style in this game, which is weird because
very much controlling decks are my style in Magic.
But in this game, there's no counterspell. So
I just feel like I'm out of control in my control
deck. But for me, I do think that this takes
away a huge pillar of the format. So aggro decks
often are going to get checked by the midrange
decks, and the midrange decks are going to get
checked by the control decks. So... now the two
best control decks in the current meta have gone
away. So we're missing a pillar of the gaming
experience to keep the game in check. So it becomes
a, oh crap, what do I do now? And is the deck
that I was currently playing still worth playing
because it was designed with these two control
decks existing very much in mind? Or should I
swap things around? How should it work? So we're
missing this huge segment of the metagame. So
for me, it becomes a question of what then becomes
the best deck. But now, in absence of that, I
think that we end up seeing something like Ruby
Amethyst come back to the forefront as the controlling
deck, right? It was the other B prep deck, so
it makes sense that it is kind of the other controlling
deck. I think we'll start to see that reemerge.
I don't know in what form or fashion. I do think
they have to be cognizant of the amount of discard
that's going to be running around. Because, again,
without the controlling decks to really have
a powerful card to counteract the discard decks.
They can run a little bit more rough shot across
the format than they were. And I think that the
aggro decks might be in a little bit of trouble
because the mid -range decks are going to be
able to unquestionably pick them apart without
anything to really control them. So it feels
like it's going to be very much a mid -range
kind of meta, at least in the very immediate
future. Cliff, what do you think? I think specifically
the Ruby Amethyst deck, how it plays in this
game, it's the biggest mid -range deck. That
due to purple's inherent just incidental lore
gain and card draw advantage, and then all the
locations that draw cards and getting the removal
of red, it can easily transition into the, okay,
I'll just play one turn slower than I would normally
play, and now I'm control deck. So I think where
Lurkana's a little bit different than Magic with
the aggro midrange control is I don't think there's
truly control in the sense that you're just stopping
your opponent from doing everything because there's
no cross -turn interaction. exactly you can't
sit there and legitimately do nothing like where
the control decks your opponent would just in
magic would in general concede when they've lost
lorcano there's no reason to concede because
there's nothing to do on your opponent's turn
so if you're at 19 you just need to draw that
one cost guy that quests for one and you you
win because you're not trying to attack through
something or into something or being stopped
with that so the control deck mid -range deck
is kind of like muddy waters but like ruby i
don't see how it's not just the best deck again
That's fair. Because red, blue, and blue steel
have gotten so fast with some of the tools they've
gotten to where they could compete on the raw
card advantage that purple -red had to make those
matchups closer to 50. Because a couple sets
ago, what, blue -red was 10%, 15 % to beat red
-purple? Yeah. You know, it's probably closer
to 50 -50 or blue -red favored. So with that
gone, like, what is there to stop it? Right.
Yeah. Steel Song was definitely held in check
by the blue -red decks. They completely, like
it was one of the most, in any trading card game,
one of the most imbalanced matches I've ever
played was when I was playing Steel Song and
I had to play against the Ruby Sapphire decks.
It's just like, how do I even, like it just feels
like, like the strategy we were taking was either
dump my hand immediately and not wheel and hope
that the red -blue deck didn't have it or wheel.
to the perfect ability to mill the red -blue
player out. Yeah, you needed your wheel to never
hit a wheel. Exactly. And you needed your blue
-red opponent to not realize that you were on
the I'm -going -to -deck -you plan and draw one
or two too many cards off whatever they were
drawing cards off of. Exactly. Sam, what do you
think is going to come to prevalence now that
we're lacking the big, slower at least, or the
mid -rangiest of mid -range? Yeah, I think what
you said, it's going to completely change the
whole meta. Like even people who don't play these
cards, it's going to change a lot because different
decks are going to be better and other decks
are going to be worse. And I think like us as
a whole, we just have to figure out what's the
best deck now. I think the first week that there's
a tournament anywhere, you'll see five or six
different decks being played. They'll probably
be all about 20 -ish percent of the field. And
then by week two or three, like store champs,
there will be one deck that is 50 % of the field
again. I mean, my guess is that we're going to
see the discard decks running. wild again sure
and that'll end up being 50 67 percent of the
field again and then we'd end up just back where
we are yesterday what do we ban next or yeah
we go exactly what i think i think sam's correct
in the immediate future i think close correct
in the like four weeks ban is where the discard
decks become really good they check all of the
aggro decks and then the ruby amethyst decks
come to prevalence because they play so well
against the discard decks because you can just
ignore what they're doing and just play maleficent
on three rabbit on four pick up my rabbit and
you just you can't run them out of cards it's
extremely difficult to run them out of cards
in the discard decks and then they just become
the the tour de force for the slowest most controlling
version of the deck possible and they have library
which is unkillable yes and endless card draw
yeah It's very good. And we could even see the
resurgence of things like Queen's Castle because
you're not forcing Maui down ahead of schedule
anymore, right? Like, it is legitimately hard
for me to imagine a world without Hiram Flaversham.
Like, legitimately. I don't remember that. Before
Hiram Flaversham, we were magic mirroring at
each other because it was first chapter. So that
was what we were doing. Blue Red, I don't even
think was a deck. Blue Red was not a deck. You
were trying very hard to play Blue Red in first
chapter. I was. Trying really hard to play Bell
into Maleficent Dragon. Yep. But it just wasn't
a deck until set two. And then Hiram and Popsicle
came out. And Nick Wilde. And Nick Wilde. And
defined what the meta really became. And that
deck stuck. But I mean, Red Purple stuck in there
for a while too, right? Because it got mini.
And we've seen this evolution of the game over
time. And Hiram decks have always been a pillar
because they were A. Synergy and card draw engine
in one color. Every color pretty much has access
to a card draw engine. Are they as potent as
Hiram? Yes, until Tamatoa 6, Happy as a Clam
came out and then created the ability to be hyper
Nick Wilde. Right. And in a turn sequence that
just slotted right in. Like, okay, I played Hiram
on three, something else, and then I played Tamatella
on five, get back two Popsicles, which turn immediately
into multiple more draw threes because of Hiram.
It's just crazy. Even if you only got one Popsicle
back, it was very good. Yes. It was just so good.
If Hiram was sitting there ready to eat a Popsicle...
it is crazy hard to come back from how powerful
that play pattern is. It just was, and I think
that's what kicked it over the edge. Do I think
that it's kind of unfair that the banhammer fell
on Hiram? Yeah, a little bit. I wouldn't have
necessarily pegged that myself as the card that
was creating the problem, but I do think that...
They realize that this play pattern is oppressive,
and it is. Is it oppressive enough to ban? I
just don't think we've had enough time with the
six -drop Tamatoa yet to really indicate if there's
a way to play around this or not. The deck lacks
discard pile interaction. Could that have helped
answer the question? Of course. Could there have
been a character that came in and then did something
with the discard pile? Of course. Did we see
Hiram in existence with Tamatoa long enough for
that to become something? No. Right, if they
printed a card that was put an item from your
opponent's, put an item from a discard pile into
somebody's deck or on the bottom of the deck.
On the bottom. Ooh, we've seen on the bottom
technology with Under the Sea, so that exists.
We were talking about this last night, like being
able to more easily take cards out of the discard
pile to help combat the strength of Tamantoa.
If they don't want to create like an exile or
like entirely gone from the game zone, this game
does not have enough search your deck for a thing.
To where putting stuff on the bottom doesn't
effectively make it disappear forever. That's
right. So I do think that there are ways to print
cards in the future to help mitigate this. Or
other, just other very strong engines in the
game that will inevitably come up. I just think
we need a little bit of time to play with them
to find out. This feels very... pandering to
people who don't want to come up with an answer.
They just want the problem answered. And the
simplest way is to kind of go tell mom and dad
that this mouse is being very unfair to me. Yeah.
So I'm going to call it there for this episode.
However, we are going to release a bonus episode
because there's a lot to talk about. Cliff has
still got a lot of things to shake his fist at,
and there's still a ton of. talking points within
this topic to really dive into. But we wanted
to bring you something that fit into the episode
format and kind of let you know you're not alone.
If you're happy to an extent, I guess you have
me as your proxy. If you're really ticked off
about this, you have Cliff as your proxy. And
if you're just kind of generally disheartened
overall, you have Sam as your proxy. And we're
all kind of coming at this from different angles,
but we're all impacted by it the same way. It
all is going to make an impact on the game we've
been enjoying. And I just truly, truly hope that
it is in fact a positive one and that no matter
what they do, no matter how many changes they
make, we get to still keep questing.