WEBVTT 00:00:08.330 --> 00:00:11.689 Hello and welcome back to Illumination, the Disney 00:00:11.689 --> 00:00:15.849 Lorkana podcast. My name is Max. I'm Sam. Cliff. 00:00:15.990 --> 00:00:22.789 Cliff's here. And Ellie's here. So we have some 00:00:22.789 --> 00:00:25.789 news that is rather upsetting to Cliff and Ellie. 00:00:26.210 --> 00:00:30.829 And that is two cards as of this very day, that 00:00:30.829 --> 00:00:35.509 would be the 8th of April 2025, have received 00:00:35.509 --> 00:00:38.850 a... ban in core constructed what does that mean 00:00:38.850 --> 00:00:40.950 it means the card is no longer allowed to be 00:00:40.950 --> 00:00:43.990 played in core constructed this is a little bit 00:00:43.990 --> 00:00:46.049 different from what we saw with bucky where the 00:00:46.049 --> 00:00:48.609 card was revised and an errata card was created 00:00:48.609 --> 00:00:50.990 that will not happen with these two cards what 00:00:50.990 --> 00:00:53.210 will happen is they're simply not allowed to 00:00:53.210 --> 00:00:56.649 be played in core constructed until deemed otherwise 00:00:56.649 --> 00:01:00.049 the two cards in question one is fortisphere 00:01:00.049 --> 00:01:04.250 the other is hyrum flaversham toy maker that 00:01:04.250 --> 00:01:07.409 is the four cost one when it enters or quests. 00:01:07.829 --> 00:01:10.349 You can banish an item. If you banish an item, 00:01:10.409 --> 00:01:13.760 you get to draw two. cards. So we're bringing 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:17.200 you a rather unfiltered episode here. It probably 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:20.680 won't have the most use other than just letting 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:23.700 you all know our thoughts, trying to think of 00:01:23.700 --> 00:01:26.459 where do we go from here in the immediate future? 00:01:26.579 --> 00:01:29.140 How does this impact us in the long term? And 00:01:29.140 --> 00:01:32.019 just allowing you hopefully to feel like you're 00:01:32.019 --> 00:01:35.180 not alone in your thoughts. You're either maybe 00:01:35.180 --> 00:01:36.760 you're a little happier, maybe you're a little 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:39.340 bit more aggravated, or maybe you're just seeing 00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:41.659 past the cards themselves that were dealt with. 00:01:41.739 --> 00:01:45.060 and you're more worried about the impacts of 00:01:45.060 --> 00:01:49.000 the idea of a ban. So let's get right into it. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:51.379 We're talking bans this time. How do we feel 00:01:51.379 --> 00:01:54.859 about ban versus errata in this particular case? 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:57.159 Are we happier with a ban than an errata of these 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:02.280 two cards? Yes. Oh, I see. Why? A ban means that 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:05.079 the cards can come back in the future. That is 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:08.039 very true. Cliff, how do you feel? 100 % support 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.419 banning over eroding. Eroding should only be 00:02:11.419 --> 00:02:15.139 used to clean up text boxes, print errors in 00:02:15.139 --> 00:02:17.919 grammar or whatever. making something more clear 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:20.360 and concise. Eroting is the worst option for 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:22.740 physical media. Yeah, I totally agree. We saw 00:02:22.740 --> 00:02:25.219 some of that particular cleanup in first chapter 00:02:25.219 --> 00:02:28.280 cards, right? Like support was mislabeled and 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.060 I think Pacha was misspelled on work together 00:02:31.060 --> 00:02:34.580 and Befuddle had an error because it got around 00:02:34.580 --> 00:02:38.379 having a chosen in the text box. So everything 00:02:38.379 --> 00:02:40.819 you said, I fully agree with. Totally cogent 00:02:40.819 --> 00:02:45.180 when it comes to cleaning up a... grammatical 00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:49.199 or mechanical issue simply changing an entire 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:52.819 card with physical media is much much more difficult 00:02:52.819 --> 00:02:54.419 right like you have to figure out a way to get 00:02:54.419 --> 00:02:57.599 a card to everyone explain to people who open 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:59.979 it read it and see it as printed that is not 00:02:59.979 --> 00:03:02.460 you are seeing it wrong that is not how it actually 00:03:02.460 --> 00:03:04.939 is is a much more difficult experience than going 00:03:04.939 --> 00:03:07.319 oh by the way that card you opened it's a little 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.680 too good you can't actually play it in the game 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:12.039 right now Right, yeah. The banning, it allows 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:13.919 them to bring it back at some point in the future 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.180 if they believe the game has progressed to a 00:03:16.180 --> 00:03:18.560 point where the cards may no longer be an issue, 00:03:18.699 --> 00:03:22.500 which is a much better version of routing it. 00:03:22.539 --> 00:03:24.360 Because now if they want to, for the example 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.060 of Bucky, bring Bucky back, they'd have to then 00:03:27.060 --> 00:03:30.330 print more versions. of the original one and 00:03:30.330 --> 00:03:32.449 tell people the promos that they all handed out 00:03:32.449 --> 00:03:34.569 that were the eroded fixed versions are the ones 00:03:34.569 --> 00:03:36.370 that are no longer illegal, which makes it way 00:03:36.370 --> 00:03:38.349 more complicated and confusing. Right, so we 00:03:38.349 --> 00:03:40.650 can safely say Bucky's never coming back in his 00:03:40.650 --> 00:03:43.030 Rise of the Flood -born form. I would argue that 00:03:43.030 --> 00:03:45.330 he'd be fine right now. Yeah, I agree with you 00:03:45.330 --> 00:03:48.210 there, too. Sam, anything to add to the concept 00:03:48.210 --> 00:03:52.300 of ban versus errata? no more to add no more 00:03:52.300 --> 00:03:54.620 to add all right then how do we feel about this 00:03:54.620 --> 00:03:57.259 versus one of the other big topics that was being 00:03:57.259 --> 00:04:01.919 discussed a rotation meaning that certain sets 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.400 as they progress to a certain age would no longer 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:08.319 be playable in the format we know is core constructed 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:10.460 you see this in other games where it would maybe 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:13.900 make a core constructed format and then like 00:04:13.900 --> 00:04:17.439 a I don't know, ancient core constructed format 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.279 where you could play with everything versus playing 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:22.759 with only the newest sets of cards in order to 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:25.720 breathe some freshness into the game. Cliff, 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:28.319 I'll start with you. So I think rotating sets 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:30.920 currently in Lorkana would be a bad thing as 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:33.379 there's not enough cards. I think for the longevity 00:04:33.379 --> 00:04:37.100 of the game and the health of the game, they 00:04:37.100 --> 00:04:39.709 will have to institute it at some point. For 00:04:39.709 --> 00:04:42.269 R &D, it's easier because if they take the Yu 00:04:42.269 --> 00:04:43.769 -Gi -Oh route you're always worried about, is 00:04:43.769 --> 00:04:45.629 the card that I printed today going to interact 00:04:45.629 --> 00:04:48.769 weirdly with a card that got printed 25 years 00:04:48.769 --> 00:04:51.250 ago, right? So you save yourself from that. While 00:04:51.250 --> 00:04:53.250 it can still pop up in like ancient, we'll call 00:04:53.250 --> 00:04:56.069 it like their extended legacy vintage, ancient 00:04:56.069 --> 00:04:58.649 Lorkana, you worry about those things less and 00:04:58.649 --> 00:05:00.990 that's when you handle bans of things in those 00:05:00.990 --> 00:05:02.470 cases. Like, hey, we didn't think this card from 00:05:02.470 --> 00:05:05.449 set two could ever do this thing, but these years 00:05:05.449 --> 00:05:07.509 the cards allow it. So I think right now rotating 00:05:07.509 --> 00:05:10.279 bad. In the future, it will have to be done just 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:11.920 for the health of the game. That's fair. Sam, 00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:13.519 what do you think? Yeah, I agree. I think it's 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.379 too soon for a ban. I don't think we have enough 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:18.379 cards that if we were only allowed to play, say, 00:05:18.500 --> 00:05:21.339 sets four to current, we don't have enough cards 00:05:21.339 --> 00:05:23.420 that it would make sense, I don't think. That's 00:05:23.420 --> 00:05:26.899 fair. I think that there are a lot of... issues 00:05:26.899 --> 00:05:29.899 if you don't rotate eventually because there's 00:05:29.899 --> 00:05:31.420 only going to be a small percentage of cards 00:05:31.420 --> 00:05:34.279 that are good enough to be played and it's going 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:36.800 to be much much harder for cards to join that 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:41.769 coveted spot because it just doesn't change enough 00:05:41.769 --> 00:05:45.310 of the game that like, Oh, a set came out and 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:47.769 two cards are playable and core constructed. 00:05:47.790 --> 00:05:50.009 It starts to get to that level. Right. You also 00:05:50.009 --> 00:05:52.490 don't need to keep the power creep, like the 00:05:52.490 --> 00:05:55.149 pedal to metal as hard on power creep to push 00:05:55.149 --> 00:05:57.370 out the older cards. Right. Cause like a couple 00:05:57.370 --> 00:05:58.949 of times, at least in magic, they've printed 00:05:58.949 --> 00:06:02.050 inherently weaker sets to reign the power creep 00:06:02.050 --> 00:06:05.829 back in of their standard or core thing to reign 00:06:05.829 --> 00:06:08.990 in where their R and D had gone. Absolutely. 00:06:09.610 --> 00:06:12.750 So I think that good positives there. I think 00:06:12.750 --> 00:06:14.769 they did, if they were going to make this choice, 00:06:14.910 --> 00:06:17.790 I think that they did it the right way. Counter 00:06:17.790 --> 00:06:23.389 to that is the way that this was done seemed 00:06:23.389 --> 00:06:28.000 extraordinarily abrupt. And the ban is effective 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:32.720 as of the day it was announced. As of time of 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:35.680 recording, that's again the 8th of April 2025, 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.199 there is no announced DLCs. World still has not 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:41.920 gotten a firm date yet. So there's nothing going 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.540 on at a higher level until our set championships 00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:48.699 start in the very beginning of May. So I'm not 00:06:48.699 --> 00:06:50.740 really sure why we banned a card and made it 00:06:50.740 --> 00:06:52.800 effective that very day as opposed to waiting 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:55.600 a little bit to give us a chance to finish. up 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:57.540 tournaments players are already obligated to 00:06:57.540 --> 00:07:00.519 at their local store level and be able to use 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:02.180 their cards that they had just gotten i mean 00:07:02.180 --> 00:07:04.259 this isn't too many this is what two weeks after 00:07:04.259 --> 00:07:07.600 big box release big store release so we haven't 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:09.879 had a lot of time to really play with the cards 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:12.379 yet so maybe i just finally got my fourth tamatoa 00:07:12.379 --> 00:07:15.839 and uh yep got here in the mail and now i can 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:17.560 put it right into my trade binder because i can't 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:19.899 play with it really or at least not yet till 00:07:19.899 --> 00:07:22.079 i figure out what what to play it in because 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:24.240 the decks it was popular and now all kind of 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:26.180 got shot pretty hard by the banning of these 00:07:26.180 --> 00:07:29.300 cards. Or you're a newer player that saw somebody 00:07:29.300 --> 00:07:30.959 playing like a Blue Red or a Blue Steel and was 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:32.720 like, oh, that looks really cool. I've played 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:35.319 other card games. I like how that deck operates 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.319 and went online and ordered their Hirams to put 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:39.740 this deck together and now they don't even have 00:07:39.740 --> 00:07:43.199 a chance to play with those cards. Yep. Exactly. 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:44.680 I can't finish it out at the tournament. I can't 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:46.319 play it at my locals for at least the next couple 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:49.480 of weeks to kind of give Hiram his... His send 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:52.379 -off. His send -off, a proper kind of burial 00:07:52.379 --> 00:07:54.560 at sea. Now it's just abruptly like, take it 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:55.860 out of your deck because you can't play with 00:07:55.860 --> 00:07:58.079 it at all. Because even Bucky's errata wasn't 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.620 effective immediately. No, it was not. We got 00:08:00.620 --> 00:08:04.120 to run out. As a longtime Blue -Red, Blue Steel 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:05.939 player, I would like to have another week of 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:09.110 playing with my Hirams. draw my last couple of 00:08:09.110 --> 00:08:10.629 cards off of them and then hope that they come 00:08:10.629 --> 00:08:12.629 back one day in the future yeah exactly i think 00:08:12.629 --> 00:08:14.089 there's just a little bit more of an elegant 00:08:14.089 --> 00:08:17.569 way to do it i think that communication in general 00:08:17.569 --> 00:08:20.029 we've talked about in the past needs an upgrade 00:08:20.029 --> 00:08:22.870 pretty dramatically especially from the game 00:08:22.870 --> 00:08:25.769 design team and the organized play folks i think 00:08:25.769 --> 00:08:28.930 that having that idea of hey there are cards 00:08:28.930 --> 00:08:32.190 we're aware of what this new tamatoa has created 00:08:32.190 --> 00:08:34.649 in terms of a play pattern that's very oppressive 00:08:34.649 --> 00:08:37.210 we're keeping an eye on it there are other cards 00:08:37.210 --> 00:08:39.539 we're watching watching closely as well. So we 00:08:39.539 --> 00:08:41.659 will let you guys know if we feel like we need 00:08:41.659 --> 00:08:44.580 to move towards this decision would be at least 00:08:44.580 --> 00:08:46.720 encouraging to know like, okay, I need to be 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.600 careful about how much of my time and money I'm 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:51.580 investing in certain strategies that might not 00:08:51.580 --> 00:08:53.980 be viable in a couple of weeks, but just to go, 00:08:54.019 --> 00:08:57.320 hey, all right, I got my cards. I can't use them 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:00.799 now. is pretty rough especially something like 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:03.059 Hiram like if I just wanted to finish up foiling 00:09:03.059 --> 00:09:05.980 my cool new deck now all of a sudden that spikes 00:09:05.980 --> 00:09:08.220 the price right like Hiram's down to an all -time 00:09:08.220 --> 00:09:10.820 low so if you picked up the foils when it spiked 00:09:10.820 --> 00:09:12.820 you're gonna lose a lot of money and that's tough 00:09:12.820 --> 00:09:15.159 I mean I understand that it's a risk you take 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:17.940 with a luxury hobby like trading cards but it 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:20.679 still just creates a feels bad that could have 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:23.620 been mitigated at least partially by letting 00:09:23.620 --> 00:09:26.559 this breathe a little bit more you also run the 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:28.720 risk of losing a bunch of like your player base 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:30.279 if they're newer to the game that liked a thing 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:32.460 it's like oh i just got into the game i spent 00:09:32.460 --> 00:09:34.360 this money i liked this thing i can't do this 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:37.059 thing anymore how often do they do this right 00:09:37.059 --> 00:09:38.919 it creates a lot of especially in a new game 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:40.779 it's just like oh this is our first set of bands 00:09:40.779 --> 00:09:42.480 it's not the first time a card's kind of been 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:46.620 taken out of the game but if this is happening 00:09:46.620 --> 00:09:50.019 this much happening Every was a set seven that 00:09:50.019 --> 00:09:52.539 just came out. So we've had it happen twice now 00:09:52.539 --> 00:09:55.440 in seven sets. So, I mean, that's not ridiculous 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:58.840 by any stretch traded bands are, I want to go 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.240 on record and say, I do think bands can be healthy 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:03.679 to keep a game fun and interesting. Absolutely. 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:07.440 But I think that while they, I think made the 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.919 best choice possible here, it feels like they 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:12.200 made it in the worst possible fashion by just 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:15.659 putting out a lack of explanatory text in the 00:10:15.659 --> 00:10:18.639 article. There are also other websites covering 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.759 this news that knew about this ahead of time. 00:10:20.899 --> 00:10:24.500 So it just feels like we kind of – us as the 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:27.799 players, the ones keeping the game alive, we're 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:30.200 the last ones to know. And that also creates 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:32.100 a little bit of a feels bad. Like we're just 00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:35.759 all stuck left going, what? Yeah. Right. Yeah, 00:10:35.860 --> 00:10:37.679 I think – This could have been, even if they 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:39.519 announced it today and said this is going to 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.639 be effective starting store champs. Because some 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:43.600 people, we have a tournament this weekend. It's 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:46.480 in four days. And we have to figure out what 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:48.720 we're playing now. Right. A lot of us have already 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.039 invested. Like if you're in an event in the next 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:54.220 week or two, you've paid the entry fee to get 00:10:54.220 --> 00:10:56.440 in most likely. Because a lot of times stores 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:57.799 will give you a little bit of a discount for 00:10:57.799 --> 00:10:59.919 registering ahead of time. But now you're invested. 00:11:00.500 --> 00:11:02.139 So you can't just be like, well, I'll just lose 00:11:02.139 --> 00:11:03.960 out on that money. And some people only have 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.269 one deck. We are fortunate enough that we can 00:11:07.269 --> 00:11:10.210 put together another deck, but some people can't, 00:11:10.210 --> 00:11:11.990 so what are they going to do for the four days 00:11:11.990 --> 00:11:13.389 that they have to gather something? We're also 00:11:13.389 --> 00:11:17.169 fortunate that we have a team, so we got to test 00:11:17.169 --> 00:11:19.730 and hone what deck we wanted and cater it, whereas 00:11:19.730 --> 00:11:21.409 if you're just by yourself and you only play 00:11:21.409 --> 00:11:23.940 blue, red, or blue steel... You're in a world 00:11:23.940 --> 00:11:25.279 of trouble trying to figure out what you want 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:27.000 to do for the event that you now have in four 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:28.960 days to figure out what to do. Yeah, and you 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:30.559 better hope you have the cards for it. Right. 00:11:30.659 --> 00:11:33.120 It really puts people in a difficult pinch for, 00:11:33.139 --> 00:11:35.980 again, no real reason with zero DLCs and zero 00:11:35.980 --> 00:11:39.019 large events announced. Again, the next one being 00:11:39.019 --> 00:11:41.960 Store Champs, which is multiple weeks away. So 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:44.519 it's like, why not just wait a little bit and 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:48.860 then have at it? Right. This is very, very strange. 00:11:50.750 --> 00:11:54.629 Also, to kind of dovetail from the lack of explanatory 00:11:54.629 --> 00:11:57.529 text in the announcement article, they kind of 00:11:57.529 --> 00:12:00.889 offset that with a live Q &A with Steve Warner, 00:12:01.029 --> 00:12:03.629 which I think is a really cool idea. Why not 00:12:03.629 --> 00:12:05.789 speak directly to one of the game designers? 00:12:06.350 --> 00:12:09.169 I think that's an amazing thing, and I do sincerely 00:12:09.169 --> 00:12:12.289 hope that they keep doing those kinds of things. 00:12:12.809 --> 00:12:16.960 But I think part of the issue is... When you're 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:18.679 doing this live back and forth right now, they're 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:20.820 holding it over Discord, and it's kind of a textual 00:12:20.820 --> 00:12:23.340 back and forth where people are throwing up questions. 00:12:23.379 --> 00:12:25.000 They're cherry -picking what questions they want 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:28.919 to answer and then answering it. Because we're 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:32.700 seeing this in real time, the questions they're 00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:34.779 picking and the answers in some cases end up 00:12:34.779 --> 00:12:38.379 being a little cryptic, and it can leave more 00:12:38.379 --> 00:12:43.220 than the intended response as the actual answer. 00:12:43.259 --> 00:12:44.960 You can read into it, and I'm sure that's not 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:47.159 the goal. They're trying to provide a surface 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:49.659 -level bit of comfort to the player base. But 00:12:49.659 --> 00:12:51.940 when you're saying things like, we're pretty 00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:54.379 sure, we're not being able to back up a lot of 00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:56.360 what you're saying with actual data because we 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:59.960 haven't run a DLC since last year, there are 00:12:59.960 --> 00:13:02.860 a lot of concerns when it's players like myself 00:13:02.860 --> 00:13:04.679 who go, okay, well, what percentage of the people 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.019 were playing this deck? What percentage was this 00:13:07.019 --> 00:13:10.629 deck converting? What is your major concern and 00:13:10.629 --> 00:13:12.769 what are you basing it on? And otherwise, we're 00:13:12.769 --> 00:13:14.789 hearing things like, we're pretty sure. It's 00:13:14.789 --> 00:13:18.190 like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't want people to 00:13:18.190 --> 00:13:20.389 lose out on being able to enjoy the hobby because 00:13:20.389 --> 00:13:23.149 you are pretty sure. You also have the issue 00:13:23.149 --> 00:13:26.889 with it being in text of if your opinions are 00:13:26.889 --> 00:13:29.429 one way about something, how you read something. 00:13:30.379 --> 00:13:32.639 may be different than how sam reads it or how 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.080 you read it right somebody else like oh i read 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:36.759 it this way it's like oh this is great or like 00:13:36.759 --> 00:13:40.039 well i read it as this so there's like a lot 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.659 of ambiguousness to their vague answers to things 00:13:43.659 --> 00:13:45.840 which is just like doubling down on like the 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.539 messy can like the messy communication absolutely 00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:51.720 again i will second you that i want them to keep 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.039 doing stuff like this because they need some 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:56.500 kind of outreach and communication on stuff which 00:13:56.500 --> 00:14:00.200 has been effectively none yes through The majority 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:02.580 of the lifespan of the game. Correct. So even 00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:05.360 like, while this is like a messy, odd feeling, 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.399 like approach to it, I appreciate that they're 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:12.059 trying something. Agreed. Sam, anything you want 00:14:12.059 --> 00:14:17.019 to add about this? No, I agree. Awesome. So let's 00:14:17.019 --> 00:14:19.379 kind of look at how we're, where are we moving 00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:22.889 to from here? Like, what are we going to do? 00:14:22.929 --> 00:14:26.429 The cards are now band effective today. For me, 00:14:26.570 --> 00:14:28.629 in terms of the cards themselves, it impacts 00:14:28.629 --> 00:14:32.250 me personally very little. I was not the best 00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:37.029 blue player. I was not a blue enjoyer. It's just 00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:39.970 not my style in this game, which is weird because 00:14:39.970 --> 00:14:42.149 very much controlling decks are my style in Magic. 00:14:42.289 --> 00:14:44.730 But in this game, there's no counterspell. So 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:47.110 I just feel like I'm out of control in my control 00:14:47.110 --> 00:14:50.269 deck. But for me, I do think that this takes 00:14:50.269 --> 00:14:53.450 away a huge pillar of the format. So aggro decks 00:14:53.450 --> 00:14:55.470 often are going to get checked by the midrange 00:14:55.470 --> 00:14:57.029 decks, and the midrange decks are going to get 00:14:57.029 --> 00:15:01.230 checked by the control decks. So... now the two 00:15:01.230 --> 00:15:03.549 best control decks in the current meta have gone 00:15:03.549 --> 00:15:06.830 away. So we're missing a pillar of the gaming 00:15:06.830 --> 00:15:10.090 experience to keep the game in check. So it becomes 00:15:10.090 --> 00:15:13.809 a, oh crap, what do I do now? And is the deck 00:15:13.809 --> 00:15:16.710 that I was currently playing still worth playing 00:15:16.710 --> 00:15:19.830 because it was designed with these two control 00:15:19.830 --> 00:15:23.250 decks existing very much in mind? Or should I 00:15:23.250 --> 00:15:25.409 swap things around? How should it work? So we're 00:15:25.409 --> 00:15:29.250 missing this huge segment of the metagame. So 00:15:29.250 --> 00:15:32.019 for me, it becomes a question of what then becomes 00:15:32.019 --> 00:15:36.769 the best deck. But now, in absence of that, I 00:15:36.769 --> 00:15:38.610 think that we end up seeing something like Ruby 00:15:38.610 --> 00:15:41.210 Amethyst come back to the forefront as the controlling 00:15:41.210 --> 00:15:43.429 deck, right? It was the other B prep deck, so 00:15:43.429 --> 00:15:45.529 it makes sense that it is kind of the other controlling 00:15:45.529 --> 00:15:47.990 deck. I think we'll start to see that reemerge. 00:15:48.070 --> 00:15:51.590 I don't know in what form or fashion. I do think 00:15:51.590 --> 00:15:53.269 they have to be cognizant of the amount of discard 00:15:53.269 --> 00:15:55.769 that's going to be running around. Because, again, 00:15:55.950 --> 00:15:58.909 without the controlling decks to really have 00:15:58.909 --> 00:16:01.330 a powerful card to counteract the discard decks. 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.480 They can run a little bit more rough shot across 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.840 the format than they were. And I think that the 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.220 aggro decks might be in a little bit of trouble 00:16:10.220 --> 00:16:11.759 because the mid -range decks are going to be 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.179 able to unquestionably pick them apart without 00:16:14.179 --> 00:16:16.820 anything to really control them. So it feels 00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:18.720 like it's going to be very much a mid -range 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:21.580 kind of meta, at least in the very immediate 00:16:21.580 --> 00:16:24.139 future. Cliff, what do you think? I think specifically 00:16:24.139 --> 00:16:26.840 the Ruby Amethyst deck, how it plays in this 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:31.720 game, it's the biggest mid -range deck. That 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:34.480 due to purple's inherent just incidental lore 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.220 gain and card draw advantage, and then all the 00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:39.299 locations that draw cards and getting the removal 00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:42.779 of red, it can easily transition into the, okay, 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:44.840 I'll just play one turn slower than I would normally 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:48.299 play, and now I'm control deck. So I think where 00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:50.080 Lurkana's a little bit different than Magic with 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:52.539 the aggro midrange control is I don't think there's 00:16:52.539 --> 00:16:55.580 truly control in the sense that you're just stopping 00:16:55.580 --> 00:16:57.899 your opponent from doing everything because there's 00:16:57.899 --> 00:17:01.820 no cross -turn interaction. exactly you can't 00:17:01.820 --> 00:17:04.079 sit there and legitimately do nothing like where 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:06.359 the control decks your opponent would just in 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.920 magic would in general concede when they've lost 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.480 lorcano there's no reason to concede because 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:13.220 there's nothing to do on your opponent's turn 00:17:13.220 --> 00:17:15.440 so if you're at 19 you just need to draw that 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:19.359 one cost guy that quests for one and you you 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:21.119 win because you're not trying to attack through 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.619 something or into something or being stopped 00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:25.579 with that so the control deck mid -range deck 00:17:25.579 --> 00:17:27.339 is kind of like muddy waters but like ruby i 00:17:27.339 --> 00:17:29.920 don't see how it's not just the best deck again 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:32.779 That's fair. Because red, blue, and blue steel 00:17:32.779 --> 00:17:35.740 have gotten so fast with some of the tools they've 00:17:35.740 --> 00:17:38.660 gotten to where they could compete on the raw 00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:43.299 card advantage that purple -red had to make those 00:17:43.299 --> 00:17:45.039 matchups closer to 50. Because a couple sets 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:49.240 ago, what, blue -red was 10%, 15 % to beat red 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.500 -purple? Yeah. You know, it's probably closer 00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:54.660 to 50 -50 or blue -red favored. So with that 00:17:54.660 --> 00:17:56.440 gone, like, what is there to stop it? Right. 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:59.589 Yeah. Steel Song was definitely held in check 00:17:59.589 --> 00:18:03.309 by the blue -red decks. They completely, like 00:18:03.309 --> 00:18:05.250 it was one of the most, in any trading card game, 00:18:05.329 --> 00:18:07.150 one of the most imbalanced matches I've ever 00:18:07.150 --> 00:18:08.950 played was when I was playing Steel Song and 00:18:08.950 --> 00:18:11.470 I had to play against the Ruby Sapphire decks. 00:18:11.589 --> 00:18:13.390 It's just like, how do I even, like it just feels 00:18:13.390 --> 00:18:16.250 like, like the strategy we were taking was either 00:18:16.250 --> 00:18:19.230 dump my hand immediately and not wheel and hope 00:18:19.230 --> 00:18:21.750 that the red -blue deck didn't have it or wheel. 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.140 to the perfect ability to mill the red -blue 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:27.359 player out. Yeah, you needed your wheel to never 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:29.240 hit a wheel. Exactly. And you needed your blue 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:30.680 -red opponent to not realize that you were on 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:33.140 the I'm -going -to -deck -you plan and draw one 00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:35.220 or two too many cards off whatever they were 00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:37.440 drawing cards off of. Exactly. Sam, what do you 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:39.880 think is going to come to prevalence now that 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.960 we're lacking the big, slower at least, or the 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:46.660 mid -rangiest of mid -range? Yeah, I think what 00:18:46.660 --> 00:18:48.720 you said, it's going to completely change the 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.680 whole meta. Like even people who don't play these 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.759 cards, it's going to change a lot because different 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:55.779 decks are going to be better and other decks 00:18:55.779 --> 00:18:58.480 are going to be worse. And I think like us as 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:00.039 a whole, we just have to figure out what's the 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.319 best deck now. I think the first week that there's 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.359 a tournament anywhere, you'll see five or six 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:06.000 different decks being played. They'll probably 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.740 be all about 20 -ish percent of the field. And 00:19:08.740 --> 00:19:11.480 then by week two or three, like store champs, 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:13.500 there will be one deck that is 50 % of the field 00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.799 again. I mean, my guess is that we're going to 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.619 see the discard decks running. wild again sure 00:19:18.619 --> 00:19:21.099 and that'll end up being 50 67 percent of the 00:19:21.099 --> 00:19:23.180 field again and then we'd end up just back where 00:19:23.180 --> 00:19:27.039 we are yesterday what do we ban next or yeah 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:29.740 we go exactly what i think i think sam's correct 00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:31.380 in the immediate future i think close correct 00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:34.500 in the like four weeks ban is where the discard 00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:36.980 decks become really good they check all of the 00:19:36.980 --> 00:19:40.849 aggro decks and then the ruby amethyst decks 00:19:40.849 --> 00:19:42.970 come to prevalence because they play so well 00:19:42.970 --> 00:19:44.569 against the discard decks because you can just 00:19:44.569 --> 00:19:47.089 ignore what they're doing and just play maleficent 00:19:47.089 --> 00:19:50.470 on three rabbit on four pick up my rabbit and 00:19:50.470 --> 00:19:52.269 you just you can't run them out of cards it's 00:19:52.269 --> 00:19:54.170 extremely difficult to run them out of cards 00:19:54.170 --> 00:19:56.390 in the discard decks and then they just become 00:19:56.390 --> 00:19:59.970 the the tour de force for the slowest most controlling 00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:02.670 version of the deck possible and they have library 00:20:02.670 --> 00:20:06.390 which is unkillable yes and endless card draw 00:20:06.390 --> 00:20:09.539 yeah It's very good. And we could even see the 00:20:09.539 --> 00:20:11.140 resurgence of things like Queen's Castle because 00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:12.900 you're not forcing Maui down ahead of schedule 00:20:12.900 --> 00:20:16.480 anymore, right? Like, it is legitimately hard 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.500 for me to imagine a world without Hiram Flaversham. 00:20:19.700 --> 00:20:22.039 Like, legitimately. I don't remember that. Before 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:24.200 Hiram Flaversham, we were magic mirroring at 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:26.680 each other because it was first chapter. So that 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:28.319 was what we were doing. Blue Red, I don't even 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:30.200 think was a deck. Blue Red was not a deck. You 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:31.880 were trying very hard to play Blue Red in first 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:34.119 chapter. I was. Trying really hard to play Bell 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:36.759 into Maleficent Dragon. Yep. But it just wasn't 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:39.099 a deck until set two. And then Hiram and Popsicle 00:20:39.099 --> 00:20:41.859 came out. And Nick Wilde. And Nick Wilde. And 00:20:41.859 --> 00:20:46.000 defined what the meta really became. And that 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.200 deck stuck. But I mean, Red Purple stuck in there 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:49.500 for a while too, right? Because it got mini. 00:20:49.660 --> 00:20:51.660 And we've seen this evolution of the game over 00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:54.380 time. And Hiram decks have always been a pillar 00:20:54.380 --> 00:20:58.119 because they were A. Synergy and card draw engine 00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:02.019 in one color. Every color pretty much has access 00:21:02.019 --> 00:21:06.000 to a card draw engine. Are they as potent as 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.240 Hiram? Yes, until Tamatoa 6, Happy as a Clam 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.700 came out and then created the ability to be hyper 00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:18.960 Nick Wilde. Right. And in a turn sequence that 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.589 just slotted right in. Like, okay, I played Hiram 00:21:21.589 --> 00:21:24.670 on three, something else, and then I played Tamatella 00:21:24.670 --> 00:21:27.569 on five, get back two Popsicles, which turn immediately 00:21:27.569 --> 00:21:31.210 into multiple more draw threes because of Hiram. 00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:33.029 It's just crazy. Even if you only got one Popsicle 00:21:33.029 --> 00:21:36.109 back, it was very good. Yes. It was just so good. 00:21:36.130 --> 00:21:38.490 If Hiram was sitting there ready to eat a Popsicle... 00:21:39.049 --> 00:21:42.309 it is crazy hard to come back from how powerful 00:21:42.309 --> 00:21:45.589 that play pattern is. It just was, and I think 00:21:45.589 --> 00:21:47.170 that's what kicked it over the edge. Do I think 00:21:47.170 --> 00:21:49.630 that it's kind of unfair that the banhammer fell 00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:51.589 on Hiram? Yeah, a little bit. I wouldn't have 00:21:51.589 --> 00:21:53.910 necessarily pegged that myself as the card that 00:21:53.910 --> 00:21:57.230 was creating the problem, but I do think that... 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.099 They realize that this play pattern is oppressive, 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:02.779 and it is. Is it oppressive enough to ban? I 00:22:02.779 --> 00:22:04.700 just don't think we've had enough time with the 00:22:04.700 --> 00:22:07.460 six -drop Tamatoa yet to really indicate if there's 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:10.079 a way to play around this or not. The deck lacks 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:14.000 discard pile interaction. Could that have helped 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:15.339 answer the question? Of course. Could there have 00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:18.740 been a character that came in and then did something 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:22.880 with the discard pile? Of course. Did we see 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.859 Hiram in existence with Tamatoa long enough for 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:28.579 that to become something? No. Right, if they 00:22:28.579 --> 00:22:31.000 printed a card that was put an item from your 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.759 opponent's, put an item from a discard pile into 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:35.420 somebody's deck or on the bottom of the deck. 00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:37.720 On the bottom. Ooh, we've seen on the bottom 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:39.500 technology with Under the Sea, so that exists. 00:22:39.859 --> 00:22:41.559 We were talking about this last night, like being 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.579 able to more easily take cards out of the discard 00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:48.200 pile to help combat the strength of Tamantoa. 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:50.440 If they don't want to create like an exile or 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.700 like entirely gone from the game zone, this game 00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:56.579 does not have enough search your deck for a thing. 00:22:57.470 --> 00:22:59.130 To where putting stuff on the bottom doesn't 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:01.670 effectively make it disappear forever. That's 00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:03.730 right. So I do think that there are ways to print 00:23:03.730 --> 00:23:07.329 cards in the future to help mitigate this. Or 00:23:07.329 --> 00:23:11.390 other, just other very strong engines in the 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:14.650 game that will inevitably come up. I just think 00:23:14.650 --> 00:23:16.490 we need a little bit of time to play with them 00:23:16.490 --> 00:23:19.750 to find out. This feels very... pandering to 00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:22.809 people who don't want to come up with an answer. 00:23:22.849 --> 00:23:25.029 They just want the problem answered. And the 00:23:25.029 --> 00:23:27.089 simplest way is to kind of go tell mom and dad 00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:30.109 that this mouse is being very unfair to me. Yeah. 00:23:31.190 --> 00:23:34.230 So I'm going to call it there for this episode. 00:23:34.329 --> 00:23:37.069 However, we are going to release a bonus episode 00:23:37.069 --> 00:23:39.269 because there's a lot to talk about. Cliff has 00:23:39.269 --> 00:23:41.430 still got a lot of things to shake his fist at, 00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:45.500 and there's still a ton of. talking points within 00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:49.019 this topic to really dive into. But we wanted 00:23:49.019 --> 00:23:51.619 to bring you something that fit into the episode 00:23:51.619 --> 00:23:53.420 format and kind of let you know you're not alone. 00:23:53.619 --> 00:23:56.000 If you're happy to an extent, I guess you have 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.579 me as your proxy. If you're really ticked off 00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:00.980 about this, you have Cliff as your proxy. And 00:24:00.980 --> 00:24:02.819 if you're just kind of generally disheartened 00:24:02.819 --> 00:24:05.500 overall, you have Sam as your proxy. And we're 00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:07.220 all kind of coming at this from different angles, 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:09.779 but we're all impacted by it the same way. It 00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:12.039 all is going to make an impact on the game we've 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.890 been enjoying. And I just truly, truly hope that 00:24:15.890 --> 00:24:19.089 it is in fact a positive one and that no matter 00:24:19.089 --> 00:24:21.089 what they do, no matter how many changes they 00:24:21.089 --> 00:24:23.589 make, we get to still keep questing.