Canines are our passion.
They are our addiction.
They are our way of life right down to the very core and without them we would be lost.
The canines of this world really are something to behold.
They assist us at work, they accompany us at home, and they perform for us in the field.
No matter where we go, they are by our side.
Canines really are a ride or die, and for that we are grateful.
This podcast will showcase working canines of various breeds and disciplines as we search
for those canines and their handlers who are always striving to be the best at what they
do.
Those who are always grinding.
Those who are always pushing the limits.
Those who are always dogging.
Join us on our adventures as it is sure to be a wild ride.
I'm your host, Bryce Matthews.
And I'm your co-host, Stephen Basham.
And this, this is Semper Doggen.
Welcome welcome welcome to another episode of the Semper Doggen podcast.
Guys, I am your host Bryce Matthews and today we are joined by Mr. Stephen Basham on the
other end of the microphone.
How are you today, brother?
I'm doing good.
How about yourself, bud?
Well, very busy, if you want the honest opinion.
Yeah, no, you've got a plate full today, didn't you?
Oh boy.
I mean, went to work.
It's come home from work, had to deliver meat for the meat business.
We had some online orders this week, had to deliver that.
Come home, ate a little dinner.
It's eight o'clock now.
Gonna record a podcast.
I've got a goat in labor in the barn, so we're gonna have to deal with her as soon as we
get out of this podcast.
Still have not packed for Grand American, which I'm leaving at three in the morning
for or not.
Grand American, sorry, winter classic, leaving at three in the morning for that.
So yeah, yeah, we're here.
Good grief.
And you still got to which take your stuff with you.
We've talked about this 100 times.
You're gonna show me how to edit so that maybe I can help you out with this.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, I forgot.
I still have to edit this podcast when we get done.
Are you going?
Are you officially going or not?
I would say 96% chance that I'll be there.
All right.
Good deal.
There's still a 4% chance I won't be.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, hey, tonight's episode is gonna be fun.
We had a listener send us a message and requested that we cover the topic of show dogs.
Said they had a young girl, one of their daughters getting ready to start showing dogs, showing
some interest in it.
And she wanted to know how she should go about picking a puppy, training the dog, taking
the dog to some events and working all the way up to the top level of show dog.
So I don't think you and I are qualified to do that.
No, we're definitely not.
And guys, this is going to be interesting because hopefully I can be the shit stirrer
behind all this because our guest today is none other than Bryce's wife, Nikki.
And having both of them on the podcast should be interesting.
Well, we got her to sit down for us for a little bit.
So darling, how are you tonight?
Busy.
Not for winter classic.
So it's a busy night.
It is a busy night.
It is a very, very busy night.
Well, like you said, Bachel and I are not qualified to talk about the topic of show
dogs.
So we did recruit Nikki to come in here, you know, her, her father, her sister.
We've mentioned them several times.
They've been raising show hounds for several generations and just thought we'd pick her
brain tonight on what it would take.
So darling, for the listeners, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background,
kind of your upbringing, how your dad got into it and kind of where you are right now.
And then we'll dive into the pups, the pups and taking them to the top level.
Okay.
I got started as a toddler, really going to the shows with my parents, my sister, my dad
competed with red bones primarily and the bench shows and the night hunts.
He got started hunting with his dad.
His dad had got a couple of red dogs and took him hunting and it just kind of stuck.
And we, that's how I grew up was a, about every weekend was at a coonhound event.
So we've bred primarily red bones, but we've got some, got some other colors in there over
the years and done a pretty, done a little bit of winning with the red dogs in the woods
and in the show ring.
So I was really stuck with that, but that's, that's the background there.
Well give us, give us some insight on a couple very memorable hunts or shows or wins.
Like what sticks out at the top for Wabash River Coonhounds?
I can remember being about five years old kindergarten and the autumn oaks was in Logan
sport Indiana, just about 20 minutes from us.
And I remember playing under the bleachers in the dirt.
And the thing I remember most about those hunts was our friend Steve Fielder.
He did all the announcing for UKC back then and he always made it sound like such an event,
such excitement.
And I can remember being five years old and dad won autumn oaks with a dog named shadow,
red bone male named shadow we had for a little while.
And I mean, I can remember it like it was yesterday hearing Steve announced the winner.
So yeah, I mean, that's a great memory.
You got anything else that comes to mind?
They shouldn't be hard bash them.
Well, I mean, you have to give credit, you have to give her a little bit of leniency
because I remember me and you were talking about this a little bit.
And so when you talk about all the wins that they've had, what really sticks in my head
is you remember when you were telling me about Curtis's basement or is it his basement where
he has all his trophies?
Yeah.
He's got levels upon levels upon levels upon levels of just trophies.
And you know, that's something that I even told you that I regret is, you know, I used
to have so tired of dusting them.
And so I gave them away to a youth, you know, a youth thing.
But like I said, because man, they've done some winning.
Yeah.
And I was really trying to tear up for the world hunt three years ago where she met yours
truly.
You know, that should have been a memorable event.
I set the ball on the tee, gave her a home run and swing and a miss.
I remember thinking, man, this guy showed up with bash him.
I don't know if I want to go to dinner with him.
Hey, I mean, we only had one bed in the hotel room.
He wasn't coming home with me.
Yeah.
Not the first time he pulled something over on me.
At least it wasn't in the woods that time.
Yeah, that was.
Yeah, that was a good one.
But no, another another thing that sticks out to my head whenever you talk about your
legacy, Nikki, is and this is something that me and Bryce have talked about a couple of
times.
And I think that I wish I'm not in great KC.
So it definitely wouldn't be me.
But somebody I think needs to proposition them to recognize Curtis, you, your sister
on that.
How many autumn oaks in a row are we sitting at with your dad and you and your sister?
I'm at 40, but that's got me beat.
I'm not sure exactly where he's at.
Bryce might know better.
No, I don't.
I know he's over 50 something, but that's consecutive autumn oaks.
So I do believe he holds the unofficial record for consecutive.
That's what I'm talking about, guys.
Yeah, it's a big deal.
We're talking about consecutive autumn oaks, guys.
I mean, you got to understand that at one point in time when we're talking about Nikki
and her sister, we've got a picture of Nikki and her sister in Stroller at the autumn oaks.
So their heritage in the coon hunt world goes way back.
Yep, it absolutely does.
So all right.
Well, that's enough about it.
Like I said, I was just trying to set her up for a tee ball home run right there.
And since we missed it, we'll get on.
We'll get on with it.
But darling, why don't you go through something?
Let's start from the very beginning.
Like I said, we had a customer or a listener that requested this.
They want to know all the ins and outs.
I don't skip anything.
Break it down for a novice.
If you've got a litter of puppies that are showbred, their parents are confirmationally
correct.
What are you looking for if you've got a litter of six puppies running around and you're
going to pick out your very first show dog or your next show dog prospect?
Like, let's start from the very beginning.
Well, I think at the beginning, we're going to have to choose a breeder and a breed.
So what breed interests you first of all, and then you're going to want to look at the
breeders that are winning consistently.
You're going to want to talk to those people, get to know them a little bit, find out about
their breeding program.
You choose your breeder.
They've got a nice litter of puppies.
So you go, you meet the puppies and the first thing you're going to notice is just who catches
your eye, who's got some flash, some wow factor to them.
So that's step one.
You're going to want to pick the pup that's drawn to you.
You're going to want to pick the puppy that's drawn to you because the more you bond with
that pup, the better relationship you two have, the more work you're going to put into
it, the more fun you're going to have, the further you're going to go.
So I would say as equally as important as confirmation is, you got to have that bond
with your puppy and submit factor goes a long way because when you walk in the ring, that's
the first thing the judge is going to notice and they're going to pay attention to you
the rest of the time you're in there.
If that dog catches their attention, the first step into the ring.
Yeah, go ahead.
Now my question on that though, Nikki is, I mean, we're talking about a lot of these
puppies are nine weeks old, 10 weeks old, eight weeks old whenever you're looking at
them.
You know, this always baffled me, especially, you know, I was never really big into the
show world.
My dad mainly just showed hunting dogs.
You know, back in the day that used to be the thing, you know, hunting dogs showed to
now not so much.
But when I got around Mark and Tiff, you know, and watching them try to pick out puppies
or look at puppies, it always baffled me like, what, how do you, how do you look at a puppy
and decide whether or because puppies, correct me if I'm wrong, puppies go through stages
where sometimes there'll be a high up on their feet.
Other times they're flat footed.
Sometimes they're a little bow legged and a lot of it could just be different stages
of the puppy's life.
Am I correct?
You are correct.
They're going to change a lot.
So if you have the litter and you're looking at them at five weeks, six weeks each week,
you may pick a different pup each time.
Generally around eight weeks, if you set that puppy up, you look at its silhouette, you
look at its angles, it's, that is what the puppy is going to come back to once it's a
full grown adult is what your eight week old puppy is.
As they grow, they, everything's going to grow at different rates.
They're going to get all crazy looking.
Their feet are going to go flat when they start losing their baby teeth.
It's going to get a little wild there, but it almost always comes right back to what
you had at eight weeks old.
That's one thing I didn't know.
I didn't realize, sorry, we're talking over each other glitch and I apologize guys.
That's one thing that I didn't realize is whenever they start losing their puppy teeth,
their body changes at that point in time.
Nikki showed me that a couple of times and I did not know that.
So had I not talked to somebody who's been in the show game for a while, I never would
have known that.
Yeah, I definitely didn't.
You know, hearing that makes a lot of sense because, you know, for our listeners out there,
just know that, you know, if you're looking at a puppy at 10, 12 weeks old and you're
like, ah, that thing looks so amazing.
You know, based on what Nikki just said, that may not be, you know, what that dog turns
out to be.
So it's kind of, it sounds like to me, it's a pretty tricky trying to pick the right puppy.
Yeah.
So, all right, Nikki, let's say we've got it narrowed down to two pups in this litter.
You've got two that caught your eye.
You've got two, they're bold acting.
They're not backwards.
They're looking good.
As a puppy, what are you doing to nitpick and narrow down your selection between the
final two choices?
Well, I think you got to think about your goals.
So Bryce and I just picked a puppy out of a litter not long ago here a couple of weeks
ago and really we had two puppies we really liked and really narrowed it down to what
our goal was.
So if your goal for that puppy is to keep the sound confirmation in your breeding program,
we would have went with one puppy.
If our goal is to win as many bent shows as we can, we would have went with the other
puppy just because it was a little flashier and it's going to get your attention when
you walk in.
They were both nicely built, but that was really the difference was our goal.
I think it's important to look far into that.
Look down the road and that's where Nikki does a good job of keeping me grounded is
like, hey, what's the end goal?
What are we doing down the road?
Not just right now.
And I just went through that this weekend.
We went up and picked our wheels pups.
We got a male and a female and you know, the dog, the male, especially the males, there
was only two.
The male that caught my eye was not the male that I ended up picking and it was different
for me.
Everybody's heard me talk on here that I love a blanket back solid dog.
That's my style.
I love the look of that dog.
There was one male blanket back solid, you know, solid coat, white feet.
Another male that was open spotted, you know, to me looks like a Holstein cow.
Doesn't resemble wheels in any way, shape or form.
And I was like going up there.
I was like, yeah, I'm going to, I'll pick that blanket back dog.
And we got up there and we started looking around and just, just watching their actions,
you know, and there, there wasn't much difference in them.
They were both good acting pups for sure.
But the one that was a little bit bolder, seemed a little more curious, a little more
by himself when you had all the pups out was the open spotted dog.
And so that was the time where her and I had a decision to make and we talked about it.
And I'm like, look, like my goal is to, you know, have something better than wheels.
You know, I'd love to duplicate him, but I like to have something better even more.
So I ended up picking the open spotted male and we'll see where it goes.
But that was an instance where she had to keep me on track and, and make sure we were
looking at the end game.
So with this next question, I'm kind of going to go down a rabbit hole, just a tad bit,
something a trait in, you know, like I said, the only people that I have that I know in
the really in the show world is you.
And then obviously Mark, Mark and Tiff and me and Mark and Tiff had talked about this
quite a few times and I would like your opinion on it.
You got into the breeding program and talking about the breeding program.
One thing that you see a lot, a lot in the show dogs nowadays is the quirkiness, the
timidness.
What do you think that attributes to and as a breeding program, is that something that
you're looking, looking at?
Because a lot of your show dogs, I mean, I think you would know that you put them in
a vehicle and you've a lot of, a lot of people have to give their dogs medication to be able
to ride down the road.
And you know, for me, I was around hunting dogs all my life.
I mean, that's all out there.
You just throw them things in the freaking dog box and they're fine.
And so what's the difference between your big time show dogs and the hunting dogs?
I would say the quirkiness you're seeing is genetic and it's really attributed to breeders
not having their priorities where they need to be.
You know, breeders have an obligation to the breed to keep the soundness and the health
and welfare of the breed.
And I think that sometimes personality has been overlooked for other traits, maybe they'll
overlook that it's shy because it's got great feet and super color.
And I think that that's really where some breeders have probably failed to breed a little
where you're seeing that.
I don't think it is, it's not really attributed to how you raise them or socialization or
anything like that.
I would say it's a genetic thing that breeders have overlooked and probably needs to be something
that they focus more on because you know, excessive shyness, aggression, anything like
that's a disqualification.
So it's important that we follow that standard and that's why they have those things in there.
So you say it's a DQ, like how many times have you ever seen somebody actually be DQ'd
for one of those?
Because I've never seen it in the years that you and I have been together.
I have in the bench shows, not often, a handful of times probably I have seen in a confirmation
ring that they have excused a dog for it.
But in the bench shows you don't see it often, but it is certainly in the breed standard
and it is the judge's obligation to do so if they feel that it is excessive.
Go ahead, Basham.
I got one time for you.
It wasn't last year, was it, that your sister gave up the red bone for my daughter to show
because Buddy was showing-
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Year before at Autumn Oaks.
Yeah, he was showing a very kind interest to a female that was in heat and he liked
her a little too much.
Interesting.
So definitely Andy came to the rescue and let Jocelyn- but I would say that's one time
where you've seen a disqualification.
Yeah.
All right, Basham, I just want you to know you're cutting out on me just a little bit.
So guys, we apologize.
We're going to keep rolling though.
Nikki, we've got our putt picked out.
What's the next stages here in getting this dog ready to go to a show?
And let's take this line of events.
We're going to go to a local show and then we're going to go to a major event and then
we're going to go to a world class event such as the Nationals or the World Show.
So that's the line we're going to go.
So we've got our putt picked out, what are we doing next?
Well next we're training the putt.
So we're going to practice on the bench, we're going to practice on the ground, we're going
to practice on a lead, we're going to get them out and socialize them, take them to
your farm store, wherever pets are allowed, get them out, let people mess with them, let
people approach them.
You're going to want to practice showing people their bite.
You're going to have to open their mouth on the bench.
And then when you start thinking about bench show training, you're going to want to do
short sessions.
This is a puppy, so it's just like working with a toddler, we don't have a long attention
span.
You're going to put them up there for maybe a minute and you're going to start by practicing
holding the head still.
If you don't get the head mastered, everything else is going to twist.
So you halfway square up their feet, get them used to standing square and holding that head.
That's going to be step one of our bench show training.
Keep it short, praise them at the end and we're going to do it every day, just small
sessions and socializing that puppy.
All right, so we've got them socialized now.
We've worked on some steps.
At what age can you start showing dogs?
Let's go with UKC standards.
Is there an age limit for a puppy class?
Yeah, puppy class is going to be six months to a year.
So they've got to be six months old to enter their first show.
Some of the confirmation shows will have puppy classes, fun classes that are good to just
get them out.
As far as earning points, you got to be six months old.
If you are planning to take this puppy to the national level and win something, you
probably do not want to finish it out to champion as a six month old in the puppy class.
It's not going to be mature enough to compete with the more seasoned dogs at these bigger
events.
But the local events are maybe a good place to go learn, get some practice, but probably
not going to want to put a bunch of points on a six month old puppy.
Okay, let's back up here because I think this is something that we need to take a little
bit of time to cover.
In the hunting world, you want to finish out a dog to grand night champion in UKC as quickly
as possible.
Like that's a goal, that's something that everybody wants to do.
How young can you make your dog a grand night champion?
In the show world, it is not.
We have a dog in the kennel now that's what pushing five years old and is still a champion.
Why are you guys not taking these dogs and finish them out as quick as possible?
I know you've explained to me a couple of times, but I know there's listeners who don't
understand the concept just like I didn't.
Well, this goes back to your goals.
So if your goal is just to have a show champion, take it as much as you want, put those points
on them.
If your goal is to win out of mox or the world, that dog is not going to be just muscle development,
body maturity, mental maturity to be able to handle a big crowd like that.
It's not going to be there till at least two years old.
So you don't want to finish this dog out so quickly that it can't compete in its class
with a more seasoned dog.
When you go to autumn oaks, it's going to be divided into three categories.
Your open dogs, your champions and your grand champions.
Obviously, you're going to have younger dogs in the open or registered class.
Then the next class ups the champion class, usually two to three years old.
And then grand champions four and up is generally what my goal is.
And you get to compete with that same dog over and over each year in a different category,
which then frees up.
If once your dog has moved up to champion, then your next up and comer can show in the
open class and you have an opportunity to show more than one dog.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So now we've got we've got our dog there six months old.
We're going to some shows.
Are we what are we expecting out of the pup at this point?
Like I know whenever we're hunting, you know, we're trying not to put super high expectations
on very young dogs in the show world.
And I'm going to play devil's advocate.
It's not that hard.
Okay.
It's not that hard to stand on a bench and stand still.
Like I said, playing devil's advocate.
What what are you as somebody who is a handler?
Like what are you going to say?
That's like, no, there is a lot more that goes into it.
And here's what to expect at that age.
If you've done your homework at home and you've taken this dog out and you've socialized it,
I would expect that after the first time or two, we've went to a show that it's going
to perform for you just like it would at home, that it would be able to handle the crowd
after just a couple trips to town.
But again, that comes back with that selective breeding.
You got to choose your you got to choose your puppy well, you choose your breeder well.
We don't want one that's going to be backwards and shy.
And it's it'll be more of a struggle for you in the long run.
That's me good.
So that kind of brings me to a point that I think you're that you're well aware of,
Nikki.
I know Angie Cable brought it up that she wish you Casey would go to a system to where
you could go show a dog at a show, but choose not to get points.
What does that help at all?
Is that just for experience or what?
Well, I think it would help certainly boost their numbers at the events.
And I completely agree with Angie.
I would love that.
I had seen worse people had commented several different suggestions on how to go about it.
I think it's a great idea.
I mean, it helps the clubs that boost the numbers.
It gets people out and doing it and it gets you more entries.
It gets your dog experience without having to put those points on them and having to
move them up in the bigger to a bigger category for the big shows.
I think it's a great idea.
All right.
So you Casey, there's your suggestion.
Be able to enter the bent shows without obtaining points.
I like it.
I'm here for it.
All right, Basher.
You got anything else for me?
Go on real quick.
So how does that work?
How does that work?
So let's just for devil's advocate, how would that work?
Nikki?
Nikki, Bryce, myself, Colton, we're all in a show and we're showing against each other
and Colton wins, but Colton doesn't want the points.
Who gets the points?
Nobody?
I don't know.
There were several different proposals in the post I had seen and I don't know which
is the best way to go about it, but I definitely think that in the show dog world that people
would be interested in making a change so that you don't have to finish so quickly.
Okay.
I mean, I can, I can see where there's a lot of different variables to in things to consider
and you know, that's something I think you Casey does a good job of is they don't rush
into anything.
Now they take their time to think things through before they make some decisions.
So you know, it's on, it's on the table.
So Basher, you got anything else for you?
Move on.
No, I'm good.
All right, Nikki.
So we've got our dog there.
Let's, let's, let's go into their three years old now and they're a champion and you think
they're ready for a major event such as winter classic grand American autumn Oaks.
Is there anything at those major events that you're doing differently than what you would
have to local hunt or what's the atmosphere change due to a dog whenever there's way more
people at a major event, way more going on, a lot more distractions.
So it's not really any difference for the dog.
The dog's going to do the same thing.
It's a dog.
He's going to do what he's trained to do.
The difference is, is the handler ready for a bigger event?
So your handler is going to play a huge role.
Your handlers nerves are going to play a huge role.
Is your handler ready to show a dog in that big of a crowd?
Because if your handler's nervous, your dog's nervous and your dog that knows what, how
to do this is going to fall apart when it feels the nerves of those handlers.
So the question here is, is your handler ready?
Handler confidence will go very, very far.
If that handler walks in there with the mindset that they've got this, they're going to win
it, their dog will absolutely believe that.
And that's how their dog will perform.
If they go in there with the mindset that they're nervous, everybody's looking at us,
oh my gosh, what's going on?
That's the same mindset the dog will have.
And you will see that confidence come out in your dog.
And it will make all the difference in the world.
And that's, that's where we talk about the wow factor and getting the judge's attention
with the first step.
You step into that ring, the confidence that that dog has, and that is primarily getting
from the handler is going to make all the difference right there at that level.
Depending on that just a little bit, that kind of goes into all dogs.
Even whenever I was training bomb dogs in the Marine Corps, one thing they always taught
us was is if you're in a bad mood, it goes right down the leash to the dog.
If you're nervous, it goes right down the leash to the dog.
If you're excited, if you're whatever mood you're in, it goes right down the leash to
that dog.
So basically what you're portraying to the listeners is the same way in the show dog
world, you know, is the confidence.
The dog can feel it, it can see it, and it goes a long way even in the handlers.
It absolutely does.
It will just, we like to say it just travels down the leash, whatever you're feeling.
So if you can mask those emotions and go in there and feeling confident, it's going to
be to your benefit every time.
All right, so there's not a whole lot more that goes into anything bigger like the World
Hunt or the Nationals.
You know, it's another major event and we've done all this.
Is there any fine tuning that you would do?
And the Coon Hounds, they don't require a ton of grooming or anything.
And in UKC, you're not supposed to, what's the term, do any like alterations or anything
like that.
But is there any fine tuning that you're doing before a major event just to give your dog
the absolute best edge that they can get?
Or, and let's even talk this, because I know you've told me this a couple times, the outfit
that the handler wears and how it's supposed to contrast with the dog so that the dog stands
out more than the handler.
Absolutely.
So we're going to have to give a shout out to our buddy Phil who taught all of us growing
up about this in the Coon Dog world.
You want your, you basically want to wear the opposite color of your dog.
If you have a dark colored dog, if you're showing a plot dog, you want to wear hot pink,
orange, something bright where you can see their silhouette against you.
If you're wearing black, their silhouette's going to fade right into you.
You're not going to get to see that pretty silhouette of the dog.
So that's always a good handler tip.
Where try to wear the opposite color.
All right.
Is there anything that you need to do to the dog?
You know, just last minute preps or anything?
Is it just, it is what it is.
Coonhounds are pretty simple.
A bath, a nail trim, and you're good to go.
I like it.
I like simple.
Now something that's important that I learned is nail trim isn't just because you're talking
about the wicks in their toenails.
It's not just the day of.
Keeping them groomed all the time pushes that wick further and further back to where they
can have smaller toenails.
Correct.
Absolutely.
You can train that quick.
Um, most people use a Dremel.
You'll just Dremel up until it's shiny.
You'll see it start to shine.
And then as they walk on it, it'll push back further and it'll really train us to go back
and you can have those great little tiny nails they all want, but definitely doesn't start
day of show.
You got to do, do your homework.
All right.
So, so that got us all the way up to a major event.
Ashland, do you have anything else for removing?
I got a couple more topics I want to pick her brain on.
Yeah, just one.
I want to kind of go all the way back just because like for us, coon hunting, like the
hunting side, you know, you have different levels, you know, when you get to, when you
start with a puppy, you kind of start raw.
You're just letting them run loose, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
you know, once they're 14, 15 months old and they start showing a little spark, you don't
want to hunt them too hard because you could burn them out to a novice person who's getting
into training a show dog.
What does a week, a month, a year look like as far as training these dogs?
How often and how much is over training?
I would say do it every day, but you're doing it for a very short period of time.
You're going to start with just a couple of minutes and I probably even with a absolutely
seasons finished dog, the world champion, you're not going to spend more than 10 minutes
a day working on it.
Keep it brief.
You know, that's something that I'm sorry about it.
Go ahead.
Now, what about the gating?
Cause I know there's two different aspects.
There's two different aspects to your showing.
There's your groundwork and then there is your bench work.
How much time are you spending on that groundwork?
So groundwork is extremely important and everything we've talked about from picking your puppy,
you want to see a puppy move effortlessly.
When you're watching them in the show ring, you want effortless movement.
You're going to keep in mind that we are breeding dogs with a job.
So these dogs are bred to be able to work all night long in different terrain in the
mountains, in the swamps, and they have got to be able to hold up.
So you don't want a lot of extra movement going on.
You want feet moving in a line effortlessly.
You don't want the top line bouncing up and down because that's going to wear a dog out.
It's not going to be able to hold up as long to do its job in the woods.
So it's extremely important as far as training that I use a simple snake chain.
It's mostly the noise, you just give it a little tug when they pull away from you and
that redirect, it works great for a coon hound.
A little touch redirect, coon hounds respond great to it.
But again, I don't spend very much time on it.
I spend a couple minutes, 10 minutes maybe at the most.
They pick up quickly.
It's pretty simple.
If you're trying to break a habit, you may have to work a little harder.
If they want to look at you, so if you are using bait or treats to teach them, a lot
of times they'll want to look up at you and then their body kind of twists while you're
moving.
So if you're trying to break that habit, you may have to put a little more work in.
You can use, if you go alongside of a building where they don't have a whole lot of room
to move and twist, you can kind of break some of those habits.
And as far as a handler, what I always tell the kids when we're practicing gating is you
want to move that dog in a straight line.
If you're weaving all over the place, it's very hard for the judge to tell how well your
dog moves from front to rear.
So I always tell the kids to pick a point somewhere and look at it so that you move
in a straight line.
Pick a point on the other side of the ring, one of the posts of the fence in the ring
or something that you can focus on that keeps you moving in a straight line.
As long as you're moving in a straight line, that dog should go right with you.
So how are you preparing these dogs, say, for the bigger crowds, for noise, for someone
at Automote, getting up on a bleach or dropping a chair?
Well my technique was I had seven kids.
You know what I'm talking about, crowd noise.
That was my technique.
I went ahead and had seven kids.
So mine are pretty well bomb proof at this point.
We always joke if they can survive Lydia, they can survive anything.
But lots of people, they'll play a TV in the kennel, play a radio, obviously taking them
out to the stores and stuff.
Just try to create those distractions in home or in public before you're at the event.
Try to, you know, so that it's not the first time they're hearing that.
But you know, give them to a kid too.
If, let a kid drag them around, play with them, roll around with them, wrestle them.
My kids have been the best pup trainers just because they're wild.
And if they can handle that, then nothing fazes them.
Alright so let's go into some some tricks of the trade.
And I don't think we're giving away any any secrets here.
But this like for a novice handler, one thing that I learned is you told me that like a
lot of times a dog will do the opposite of something.
And the best way I can say that is like if a dog is pushing back on you, what do you
do?
If a dog is leaning to the left, what do you do?
Like can you give somebody a pointer on on kind of how to get that dog in the most correct
position once they have them on the bench?
Yeah, so if you're stacking a dog on the bench or on the ground, you want it to be balanced.
You want the dog to be square and balanced.
You don't want him leaning back forward to one side or the other.
Sometimes if they're nervous, they'll try to lay on you, lean towards you.
And you just want to pull them the same direction they're leaning.
If they're leaning towards you, pull them towards you.
They will bounce back like a rubber band.
If your dog is pushing back leaning back on you, I usually just put a little pressure
on the tail, pull back on the tail just enough till you can feel them pull against you and
let go and he will bounce back into a square balanced position.
That's very interesting to me.
Like whenever you were kind of teaching me how this worked, I had no idea that, you know,
I watch these people poke and pull and prod and adjust this and adjust that.
And I was like, why are they doing that?
So once you broke that down, it made sense.
And now I can understand that whenever I'm watching it.
Yeah, so the dog wants to be balanced.
That's where it feels most secure.
And if you're pulling it further that direction, it's going to feel like it's falling and it'll
bounce itself back.
All right, so we've done all this.
We've got to the top level.
We're there.
The handler is comfortable doing all this.
The progression of a handler.
Let's talk about that.
So, you know, obviously you have a novice handler who starts out and has to go to their
local shows to get their feet wet.
Then they go to some major shows after they are have been showing for I think the rules
like two or three years, then they're qualified to be a judge.
What's the process of getting your show judges license look like?
What do you have to do for that?
And like what else what else accompanies, you know, taking that next step in the show
world as a handler?
Well, as far as a judging license with UKC, it's a written test.
And then there are some apprenticeships you'll do under a seasoned judge.
And that's basically all there is to it.
I would say that it's something that should be taken more seriously.
The judges have an obligation to these breeds to follow the breed standards and keep the
integrity of each breed.
OK, I'm going to put you on the spot here for a second.
Let's just let's talk about the breed standards for the redbone coon hound.
You're a licensed judge.
You've judged several shows and major events.
What are the breed standards for a redbone so that somebody and I say I'm asking this
so that somebody can you can read it all day long on the paper what it says.
But like you have to interpret those words, right?
How do like because you've explained it to me that the judge is looking at their interpretation
of the breed standards.
They are the breed standard will break down each part of the dog from its head to its
front legs, its chest, its back, its feet.
It'll break it down and tell you exactly what you're looking for.
But the most important piece is that you have overall balance.
You got it.
You can have all of these pieces, but they have to be able to work together because what
the number one thing we're keeping in mind is this is a dog that has a job.
Its job is to get through the woods, tree raccoons, be able to last all night, be able
to go through different terrain.
That's our end goal here with these particular breeds.
So most important is that all of these pieces fit together, that they are balanced, that
they work together.
And you're going to pick that out on the ground first.
You're going to see a dog that everything is in motion together.
Everything is in sync.
Everything is working together.
Everything looks effortless.
And then you can break down the nitpicky from there.
And the things that are in the breed standard are there for a reason.
You talk about ear roll with the red bones.
They're supposed to have a moderate to low ear set that rolls forward.
They roll forward to hold the scent there at their nose.
It talks about the length of their nose and the width, and that is so that they can gather
the scent properly.
You talk about being cat footed, and that's so that they can get through the different
terrain.
They talk about the pastures being shock absorbers so that you're not wore out when you're climbing
mountains and you're swimming and chasing raccoons all night long.
So these things are in place for a reason.
The things that are in the breed standard.
But I would say the most important thing is overall balance of a dog.
Now being the kind of crapster that I am, the difference between AKC and UKC as far
as that goes, now AKC goes a little bit more in depth with their judges.
They have to actually go to classes and stuff like that, correct?
Not in the Coonhound department.
For the Coonhound bent shows it's very similar, but for the all breed events, yes, there is
a much more in depth process.
They have to have a mentor for each breed.
So they will get their judging license one breed at a time, and they'll have to do a
certain amount of mentorship under each individual breed.
Oh, gotcha.
Okay.
Yeah, I didn't realize that.
That's pretty interesting.
So, all right.
So we've covered a lot of things.
One other thing that I want to talk about though, is I get a kick out of this all the
time, the ethics in the show world.
You know, there's, and this is what I tell Nicky all the time is that this is the hardest
thing as me, for me as a hunter to wrap my heads around.
When I go to the woods in a night hunt, there is a set of rules that is black and white.
You have things that are scored and judged on, and there is a voting process if there
is a disagreement in the show world, you are paying for somebody's opinion.
Can that opinion be swayed?
Absolutely.
There are times where, and you know, UKC even did a whole podcast on the ethics of showing
coonhounds.
So Nicky, let's, let's walk it through, like give me an instance where you would not enter
a show due to ethical reasons.
Well as we all know, I don't buy it.
I'm not buying it.
I just don't think there's that much going on behind the scenes.
If I'm not entering a show, it's probably because I've already showed to that judge
and I know that they don't like my dog.
It is not because I feel like there's something shady going on behind the scenes 95% of the
time, but it is a hot topic.
It is a hot topic.
Scroll through your Facebook feed and you will see what a hot topic it is.
Okay, but aren't there times when like you're not supposed to show to somebody?
Yeah, I'm not going to show.
That's what I'm saying.
Like answer that question.
Sorry.
Like that's what I'm trying to get to.
So if I coon a dog with somebody, I'm not going to show to my sister.
I'm not going to show to my best friend.
I'm super close with, I'm not going to show to the dog's breeder.
That's pretty much it.
And you're doing that for ethical reasons because the, that person could have an emotional
attachment to you, which would cause him to pick the dog correctly.
Yes.
Because kennel blindness is real and I think more so than them doing it because they really
like you or whatever the reason.
Everybody wants to think their dog is the best.
And if they're the breeder on that dog, they already think it's better than the other dogs.
So I feel like it's more of a subconscious choice that you have an advantage then, then
a malicious choice.
I mean, we can make a whole soap opera off the show dog world.
I mean, we all know that if you watch Facebook whatsoever after a show, I mean, it's like
a, it's like a huge soap opera.
You could.
And I've been, you know,
I just wish they'd put the whole info out there instead of the, I'm not going to name
any names, but name them.
Oh gosh.
Just like, you know, here's something that I don't understand.
And we're going to go off a little tangent here and just have a little fun because these
are mystics and mysteries of the show dog world that I don't understand is like, why
announce the judge before the event?
Oh man.
This was a hot.
So in case, in case people didn't, don't have Bryce on Facebook or don't have Nikki on Facebook,
there was a fun topic where I don't remember if Bryce brought it up or if he just commented
under somebody's post and him and Nikki went at it talking about this exact subject.
So I am, I am ecstatic to get this on podcasts and to hear these two, a difference of opinion
on this subject.
We do have a difference of opinion.
So I'll go first.
Okay.
So, you know, you talk about ethics and morals in the show dog world and how convenient is
it that, you know, a lot of times the person putting on the show at a local event gets
to pick the judge and who it's going to be.
And you know what, that judge just so happens to think that that person who hired them to
be the judge for that day, they think that the person, you know, their dog is the best
dog.
Man, what a coincidence, you know, man, let's listen to the tone in his voice.
It rubs me so wrong.
You know, what a coincidence that is, you know, you've got a dog who has won all over
the country and can't win a local show.
I find that hard to believe, you know, what is the odds that you've got a dog?
A judge who rides with a competitor to an event because the weather is terrible.
And guess what?
Guess what dog ends up winning.
You can probably already guess it.
It's the dog who the judge rode with.
Why is the judge announced before Steve Sloat?
Why is the judge announced before the event?
You don't know what dogs you're going to draw in the woods on the hunting side before you
go.
If I knew that I was going to draw, you know, Buddy and I was going to draw, let's who's
hot right now, Clyde and I'm going to draw Crash before I go to Mississippi.
I'm not driving nine hours to go draw them dogs.
I ain't doing it.
If I know that the cards are stacked against me, you don't know until you get there.
So that's my rant.
Nikki, you can chime in if you feel like it, but I don't, I don't like knowing the judge
before the dag on event.
I think we have to know the judge.
It's going to make your life a whole lot easier.
If I know the judge, I can tell you that because if I don't know the judge, how do I know what
dog I want to take?
You're driving to Mississippi with 10 dogs because I don't know which dog I'm going to
show because I don't know who the judge is.
Bryce is walking 10 dogs at the rest stop because he don't want to know the judge.
She just put it in terms that you could solely understand, but I could, but here's the other
thing that cracks me up.
You know, they'll announce the judges for winter classic or for autumn oaks six months
in advance and by golly, you've got every person who's ever held a show lead or is going
to be at that event.
Oh, congratulations.
Congratulations.
Great picks, fantastic picks.
When you know two weeks ago, they was running that person's name in the mud.
Now Bryce Matthews.
Yes.
Is that a true statement?
Yes.
Look at Facebook.
Have I congratulated somebody that I would not have congratulated had they not been judging?
No, you haven't.
But I'm saying we're talking show dogs in general.
We all know that Nikki is opinionated and if she doesn't like your dog or like you, you're
going to know it.
We know that.
Oh, we all know the Indiana State hunt last year.
You know?
Yeah.
She shut down a whole room or the year before that.
That was at the hunt, not the show.
But the point that I'm getting at is it's just funny how people are so eager to suck
up to whoever the judge is going to be.
It drives me insane.
I mean, the judge does have to have some integrity.
There's their butt kissers in every crowd and they certainly do come out of the woodwork
when you're the one getting to pick the top dog.
But the judge has just got to have some integrity.
Are there judges that don't have integrity?
Have you seen it firsthand?
I would say there's a few, but not nearly as many as it's made out to be.
Are there people who will go above and beyond to give their dog the best opportunity possible
to win that event that day?
By the best opportunity, do you mean conditioning, nutrition, and a great handler?
I mean, B-U-Y, the opportunity.
Here's a problem that I see though.
You can call it what it is.
You can call it naive.
You can call it not being educated.
You can call it whatever you want.
But I'll give you an example.
Say Bryce Matthews goes to the Indiana State Hunt and you pick a dog to win.
Right?
Everybody that didn't win accuses Bryce Matthews of, oh, he picked a dog that's flat on its
feet or a dog that's high in the rear or a dog that has acne or this or that or the other.
When in Bryce's eyes, that just might be what he thought was the best dog.
So then you get a lot of people who want to discredit and say that the dog that he picked
bought that win when in reality, it was just that's the dog you thought was the best.
You'll hear that when a dog's winning a lot.
Dog is winning consistently, winning big events.
The rumors are going to start.
Why is that dog winning?
Or why is that person winning?
If a handler is winning consistently in their breed year after year after year, rumors are
going to start.
But I would say more often than not, that handler and breeder are winning consistently
because they have put in the work to develop a good line of dogs.
They've done their homework.
They've got their dog ready and they're winning consistently because they've got a good dog
and a good breeding program.
But doesn't mean the rumors aren't going to fly.
Okay.
So I just thought of something.
This is genius.
The rumor mills so fun though.
It's so fun.
This is genius, Basham.
Nikki, we're going to.
I feel like we should all just be grateful we don't have blue ticks because the blue
tick world is crazy right now.
There is some drama in the blue tick world.
Oh, have you seen the blue tick association?
It's wild.
Oh no.
Oh man.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I got a genius idea.
You couldn't do this at local hunts, but the major events, Nationals, World, and World
Winter Classic.
I think that whoever the judge is should have to explain their pick based upon the breed
standards in a microphone to the crowd and the people who are there for everybody to
hear.
They need to take that dog and break down the breed standards and say, this is why this
dog is the best dog in this lineup.
That way everybody knows what the judge picked.
And then that statement can be compared to the breed standards.
I agree.
And that standard in most types of livestock judging, most of the time your judge gives
a brief reasoning of why they went with that dog or that livestock.
And we went to a bent show Saturday.
An all breed show.
Yeah.
I went to an all breed show, but I judged the coon hound bent show and the female class
was very close.
One dog was far better on the ground.
One dog was far better on the bench.
And I explained to the exhibitors, I'm going with this dog because it has the best balance
of both.
I think that should be standard practice.
I think it makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, I did too.
Cause there's a lot of events where you show up and they pick it and everybody just starts
hooping and hollering and screaming at the top of their lungs, just making a scene.
And you don't even know why the judge picked it because I could have it.
I sitting in the crowd could have an opinion on the two dogs or the set of dogs that are
being judged for the very final round.
And I'm like, okay, I think it should go with this dog for this reason.
But the judge doesn't give an explanation and you never know why that judge or why that
dog got picked.
Now this is going to sound biased just because I was in it.
But one of the best explanations, one of the best examples of what you're talking about
is when Andy judged the Duelz at Automobiles.
And if you go back and listen to her talking about each dog and the way she explains what
she was looking for, what each dog did and why the winner won, I think that's the best
explanation for me of what you're talking about.
Nikki, is that something that used to happen back in the day?
Like, you know, that's Andy's your sister for the people who don't know.
And you and her both, when you guys are judging shows, you both go through and you give an
explanation.
You guys do that.
Is that because that is what Curtis taught you guys to do?
This is the standard?
This is why you need to do this?
Or is that something like why do you guys do it and others don't?
Not necessarily.
I think it's just some judges do.
I don't know that that ratio has changed over the years, the amount that do and don't.
But I always appreciate it when a judge does.
I like that feedback.
Oftentimes, as a judge, people will come up to you and say, after the show, why didn't
my dog win?
What could I do different?
What didn't you like about my dog?
So it's helpful just to give a little explanation what the dog that you chose, what advantages
it really had.
Yeah, I like it.
Now, why is it?
And I've always been curious because I think that a lot of shows could follow Grand American's
setup in that they use a panel to determine their winner.
Why don't more shows do that?
Well, you just opened up a can of worms, buddy.
You just opened up a can of worms because the dog who is picked as a number one by multiple
judges might not win.
They just might not.
I'm not sure that the process with Grand American panel is not a bad idea.
But they decided to get a little extra with it.
I guess the Grand American and they made it complicated.
I don't know.
See, I don't know the process.
So I guess that's me being naive.
I guess I just mean I could see where it would benefit to have a panel versus one person's
opinion.
It is.
And a lot of the aside from Autumn Oaks in the world, a lot of the bigger events have
gone to that.
This weekend, when we see the top 10 overall judging, it'll be a panel.
There'll be three people on the panel for that this weekend.
And most of the Breed Days do a panel.
So a lot of the bigger events have gone to that.
I mean, there's pros and cons to it.
I don't really feel strongly about it, but I don't love if we're going to do a panel,
let's let them pick individually.
I don't love when they discuss it.
Yeah.
So like, and by golly, we're here.
Let's just go ahead and dive into the Grand American deal.
Like, why?
What happened this year that you don't like?
I'm just being, hey, we're here.
They came up a few years ago with some complicated point system.
So each judge kind of ranks the dogs one, two, three, four.
I don't know how many dogs they had in their finals, but they rank the dogs and each position
is worth so many points.
And if, you know, this judge gives this one a one, this one gives this one a one, but
the same dog gets all the number twos, your number two ends up with more points and he
was nobody's best pick in some instances.
So I mean, we probably need to just keep it simple.
I don't hate the panel, but let's not complicate it.
And like she said, don't be talking about it.
Like the panel, stay quiet, write your number down and go put it, go hand it to the announcer.
Don't be communicating.
That's where I get frustrated and I don't even have a dog in the fight.
I just had a thought.
Oh boy.
Oh yeah.
What if we did the bench shows like a night hunt and you entered, say you get three judges,
right?
You enter dogs and you put them in, say a cast.
So say you got 20 champion males or show against each other random for four and four and you
pick out one in each one.
Elimination style.
No, who you're showing against.
You don't know who you're showing against the first, the first four might be the best
four in the whole group, but they might have show against each other in group number one.
And then the judges just be random pick from the three.
Could be, could be kind of how your cuts work.
If you have a big class, it's random, but, and, and there's no, once you get to champions
and grants, if you have a big class, yeah, once you get to champions and grants, you
can do it that way because there's no points in it for the dog until you get to the final
round, so it'd work out for the champions and grants.
But I mean, that way you wouldn't even know who your judge, like, and I'm just talking
about your bigger ones, you know, you wouldn't even know who your judge is.
You know, it's between one of the three, but you don't know exactly who the judge would
be.
I like that.
I don't know if I love it.
Okay.
All right.
Well, Hey, this has been fun.
I really have enjoyed this one and I hope that, you know, our listener who requested
as get a show person on here was able to gain some valuable information.
This has been fun and darling, thank you for joining us tonight.
I know it's not really your cup of tea, but we appreciate you.
Anytime.
I think maybe even a caveat to this.
Once life settles down for you, if it ever does, and maybe putting together a small little
series or, you know, a video series to where, you know, you know, Nikki talks about, you
know, five or 10 minutes, you know, and taking a puppy five or 10 minutes, you know, and
showing it at the beginning and then taking a younger, you know, maybe a 14, 15 month
old dog and showing, you know, a clip of five or 10 minutes, you know, just to kind of give
because I think you're right in the fact of worse, so me and you are so in tuned with
the hunting side, whether it be coyote hunting, bear hunting, hunting dog, turning dog loose,
letting it go that the show side kind of does get pushed under the table.
But here at Simper Dog and we are all about everything that deals with the dogs from the
dogs in your laps to the dogs that we work with and I think that maybe that's something
that we could highlight.
Yeah.
Like you said, if life ever slows down, but that's what I was just looking at the time,
buddy.
We've been on here for over an hour and I got that goat in the barn, like getting ready
to have baby.
So I'm going to have to get off here and get out of there.
Nikki and I, we both still got to pack winter classic tomorrow.
So Basher, thanks for joining us, buddy.
Hey, no problem.
It's been a, it's, it's actually been entertaining.
It has.
Nikki, you have anything to say before we sign off here?
I think we covered it.
Maybe like you're married to the best guy in the world or I think we covered it.
Well teeter up man.
She shot you down at every, I mean you giving her two home run chances.
So we're going to miss.
So wait, this is what I live with.
All right guys.
Well, thanks for joining us here on Simper Dog and we appreciate you guys sticking with
us.
I know tonight was a little choppy just because Basher and I don't know this topic super well
and trying to break it down into layman's terms, trying to bring a profession now onto
the podcast here.
You know, Bryce, how warm is that barn?
Not very.
You better get a couple of comforters because the way she's looking at you, that's where
you're sleeping.
And I got plenty of straw.
I'm good to go.
I'll just curl up like one of the goats.
No problem.
So, all right guys, well, we appreciate you guys bashing.
I'm going to sign off here and we're going to get this thing out and get out here for
these listeners and thank you guys for joining us.
All right.
You all take care.
I'll see you guys next time.