in classrooms and care centers across the nation.
A quiet revolution is unfolding. They build the
foundations of tomorrow, yet their names are
rarely known. The forgotten ECs across Canada
takes you into the heart of their world, powerful,
unseen, unforgettable. It's time to honor the
educators who've always been there, even when
no one's watching. Join me on today's episode.
Welcome to the Forgotten ECE, the show where
before and after school educators, summer camp
and PD staff and CYWs have a place where they
are seen, heard, and valued. I'm your host, Jamie
Wakeler, and I am so excited you're here. Hello
and welcome back to the Forgotten ECE. I'm so
excited about today's episode. This has been
a project I've been working on for a while. My
goal is to talk to the wonderful early child
educators that are in before and after school
programs all across Canada. And my first, I'm
so excited, my first guest is all the way from
British Columbia, Kayleigh. Thank you so much
for being here. Oh, thanks so much for having
me, Jamie. Oh, you're so welcome. Why don't you
start by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Absolutely. So as Jamie said, my name is Kaylee
Burton. I use the pronouns she and they. I have
a master's of early childhood education from
UBC. I graduated in 2023. That's so great. I
know. Thank you. It was such a long time coming,
especially during the pandemic. I had to. Changed
my research a lot to try to suit, you know, not
being in person with kids and trying to do research
with children when you're not in person is even
more difficult. So nowadays I'm working actually
in two before and after school programs. One
is in Vancouver and one is in Richmond. One of
the programs is licensed and one is unlicensed.
So I kind of have a bit of, you know, experience
with both. both types of programming. Both these
programs are situated on the traditional territory
of the Coast Salish peoples, including the Musqueam,
the Squamish, and the Tsleil -Waututh nations.
And I mention that because I am a settler and,
you know, I try to bring as many indigenous teachings
that have been shared with me into my work. And
I also have been doing regular substitute teaching
at a daycare in Vancouver as well. So I kind
of wear a lot of hats right now. I've been doing
a research project with the Coalition of Child
Care Advocates of BC as well about flexible childcare
and one of the actual types of flexible childcare
that we're thinking about more is before and
after school programming. So I like to keep busy,
but I'm very passionate about the field. And
yeah, I've been working with before and after
school age groups for about four years now. So
yeah, it's been very rewarding and it's been
great to, you know, learn a bit about you as
well and see the work that you're doing with
those age groups too. So. Aw, thank you. Wow.
You are busy. That's incredible though. The work
you're doing, it matters so much. So good for
you for dipping your toes in all of it. Like
I just, I think that's one of the benefits of
being in before and after school that is you
have time to. to see what else is out there and
see where you can make a difference while also
making a difference in the before and after school
program. So that's awesome. Yeah, I agree. Actually,
like the hours are really good for having other
work. So yeah, it allows me to be able to do
like my research or to do like other projects
that are important to me related to early childhood
education. So that is one benefit. Absolutely.
Before and after school care. So being in a licensed
and unlicensed, that's incredible because we
get a taste of all of it now. What is the structures
different? Like is it, what's the flexibility
like? What do the hours look like? Yeah. So it's
been, it's been interesting because I mean, I
think there is a perception that if it's unlicensed,
it's somehow lower quality, but I don't think
that's necessarily true. I think there's a lot
of ways that you could still meet licensing standards,
but be unlicensed. And especially in BC, a lot
of before and after school programming is unlicensed
because they're trying to meet a need in the
community. So part of that has to do with funding
and part of it has to do with just there's not
that many spots available. And if there is license
before and after school care, it's typically
run out of a school itself, like an elementary
school. So then whatever childcare program is.
creating that space for the children also is
in collaboration with the school and is able
to use the school space as the location. So those
partnerships typically can only exist if there's
been a relationship for a long time, right? But
some parents are so desperate for care that they
are looking at unlicensed childcare because they
do need their kids to have somewhere to go in
the hours that they're in school. And like in
Richmond, elementary school ends at 2 .45. So
that's really hard for a lot of families to meet
the pickup time. So yeah, it's really interesting.
I feel like unlicensed and after school is trying
to meet a need in the community here, at least
in the lower mainland, but it's also very expensive.
for that reason, right? It's for profit. So yeah,
so there's like a few different things to think
about. The license program that I work at though
in Vancouver is in a very old elementary school
and we have 67 children enrolled. So it's K to
seven here. 67. Yeah, it's a huge program. Like
there's so many children and there's a long wait
list. So these are, you know, kids who have typically
started in kindergarten and will stay in the
program until they're old enough to either not
want to be in the program or can walk home by
themselves. Yeah, so basically what we do is
we are in the school setting and then we have
a lot of modular furniture and materials that
we pack up and put away during the regular school
day. Luckily, we can leave it set up overnight
for the before care part of the day. And I would
say way less kids use that care. It's not 67
in the morning. I would say me half. And then
we pack it all up. The kids help us. We do the
big clean before they go to regular class. And
then around two o 'clock, all the staff come
back and we set everything up again. But we have
three books that we use in the school for that.
So like that is incredible that we have that
space. And so it's only kids who go to that school.
That program is very play based. So we do a lot
of arts and sports activities, plus the kids
love to be outside. So we don't take them into
the courtyard or there's two playgrounds at that
school. Oh, that's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. This,
this program is like, it's truly remarkable.
And it's like been a really wonderful place to
work as well. One thing that's really cool too,
is like to teach responsibility and independence.
The grades four to sevens get something called
intermittent. and that means they get half an
hour right when this when the bell rings they
have to come check in with us but then they can
go on intermittent for 30 minutes they tell us
where they're going and then they can spend time
by themselves with a friend or in group of other
kids who have intermittent and yeah it's really
awesome because they're typically very responsible
about being back at the time like half an hour
later and if they're not then they get a warning
but usually like it's it's a privilege they don't
want to like lose so they're actually quite good
about it and it's good it teaches leadership
right and and helps them get ready for like you
know being an older grade setting a good example
yeah so the other thing with this one is we do
have pro d day like full day care spring break
and summer camp there's no winter camp at this
one and Yeah, that's the like this program. I
think it's like incredible. It's incredible what
we offer. And it's been subsidized in BC. So
there's like a, it's called CCFRI, or Stammers
for Child Care Fee Reduction Initiative. And
that means like parents pay way less fees for
this program, although it is still, you know,
a couple hundred dollars a month. Wow. I think
it's fantastic in a lot of ways for these kids
and like. They get to spend time with their friends
who maybe they don't play with during a regular
school day too. So it's like a different sense
of community almost. Oh my gosh. There's so much
to unpack there. That's incredible. Both places
that you work sound amazing. So for the unlicensed
place. So our unlicensed places are generally
out of houses. Is that the same for you? Like,
is it out of someone's house? No, actually the
unlicensed program I work is at like a... a separate
location, but it does not have an outdoor space.
Like we're walking distance of a few playgrounds,
but there's no immediately connected outdoor
space. That's so interesting that it's out of
like homes in Ontario. Yeah. So, uh, our unlicensed
child care is actually run out of people's houses.
As far as, as far as I know, if someone would
come on and be like, Oh, you're wrong. Please
listen to them. But for as far as, for as long
as I am aware, And for as far as I know that
they're all out of houses and we're on licensed
child care can only have five children in it.
And if people have their own children, so like
I have two of my own kids, they have to count
in that ratio. So that cuts back how many kids
I can have. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. This
is part of why I was so excited to be on this
podcast because every province has such different
regulations and things about this. So like, it's
just so interesting to hear about because the
unlicensed place where I work, like we have four
classrooms. Yeah, and there's 32 children enrolled
in that program. What? Yeah, there's no before
school, it's just after school and we go and
we pick them up, like the teachers walk and pick
up the kids from the schools that are close by.
And that ratio, like that amount of students
meets like the business license. criteria and
like the casting regulation of the space. So.
Wow. It's a bit different. There are in -home
childcare programs that are licensed and they
have like smaller groups, like what you're describing
in BC. But this, this program is like, I think
there are a few different after -school programs
like this one. And it, yeah, it's from like 3
PM to about 6 PM. Yes, we're supposed to be picked
up by 6 and. This program is much more academic
than the license program that I work at. This
one has like lots of language classes that we
do, English, Chinese, and we do arts and STEM
classes. Yeah. So for me personally, as an educator,
it's actually really nice to work at two different
programs, one that's more play -based and open
-ended and then this other one that's more academic.
Wow. Yeah, and this program too, like we do Pro
-D days for the children. We do winter, spring,
and summer camp. But in terms of like parallel
to licensing, it's like a multi -age occasional
childcare parameters, I would say. But like we
still do have one educator for every eight children
because there are no children like under 36 months.
Got it. Okay. Yeah, but it's very much based
on like the city of Richmond and not like BC
child care licensing. Okay. For the unlicensed,
you said your ratio is one to eight. And then
what about for your licensed? For licensed, we
have one like educator and in BC, it can be a
responsible adult. You don't need to have your
early childhood educator. You can just be a responsible
adult. So for that one, it's for every 12 kids.
One adult for every 12 kids who are kindergarten
and grade one, or if they're older children,
like grade two and up, it can be one educator
for 15 kids. Okay. So similar. We have for our
license, we have for JK, SK, because I don't
know if it's the same for you. Is your kindergarten
split up between JK and SK? No. Oh my gosh. Okay.
So our kindergarten is split up into two years.
So the first year they're in junior kindergarten,
the second year they're in senior kindergarten.
We are one to 13 for those kids. And then for
school ages, so grade one up, it's one to 15.
It's the same. Oh, okay. Yeah. Junior kindergarten.
I would not say that's a thing out here as much.
Like some places will brand themselves as a junior
kindergarten, but I wouldn't say that like people
really know what that is. It's more like you
would go to daycare or preschool. Oh, yeah. Okay.
So yeah, we would go you would go to preschool
here and then you would go to school, but you
would go to school for two years of kindergarten.
I didn't know that. Yeah, it's relevantly new.
I guess I'm old. So it's actually not that new.
Like when I was a kid, we only had half day kindergartens
and then they went into every other full day.
And now they're doing full days, but half for
one year is JK and then one year. It's I think
it's I think overall and I could be wrong also.
It's just to get children into the school system
a little bit earlier for families. Right. Yeah.
Well, families do need that childcare if they're
going to work, right? So. Yes. Yes. There are
half -day kindergarten programs here, but I think
it's more common to have full day, but it's just
for the one year and then you go to grade one.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. So
what made you choose childcare and what made
you choose like getting your master's in early
child education and has landed you in these awesome
centers that you're working at? Okay, well I
wanted to do a master's degree. I don't know.
I really wanted to do research with children
and I wanted to basically just keep learning
more about like child development and my focus
when I did my bachelor's was social justice studies
like gender and race and sexuality and social
justice studies and when I finished that program
I felt like I needed to do more like applying
that to early learning spaces, like trying to
figure out how to teach kids about these complicated
topics in a way that they'll understand and that
is relevant to their lives. It's easy to think
about these things in university, but actually
teaching it to a three -year -old is different.
So I wanted to do a masters for that reason.
And then one of the things was when I started
my program, I took an additional course. to make
sure I could apply for my early childhood educator
assistant license so that I could start working
in child care. So that helped me to get into
the field, I would say, on the floor. I started
working at the unlicensed center because the
hours worked with my university schedule and
it gave me a lot of really good classroom experience,
which was great. Like I was able to try out pretty
much anything that I wanted to try with the kids.
I learned good classroom management skills. The
hours were really flexible to do before and after
school care, which was something that I needed
with my studies. And then I think because school
age, like it includes early childhood education,
right? Like it's technically ECE is up to grade
three, like age nine. So I felt like I was still
getting that experience. But then like as an
educator, it's really nice to be versatile and
teaching older age groups too. So that's something
I really like because sometimes I'm with the
kindergartners and that's a very different style
of teaching and dealing with grade five and six
kids, right? And I like being able to jump back
and forth between those age groups. Like, it
makes me feel like I'm actually, like, a strong
educator, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, and you are,
like, there's no one off the street that can
come and do what we do. Because, and that's to
say, like, even when you have a room full of
children that are from kindergarten to grade
five, you're able to create activities that are
good for the kindergarten child and the grade
five child. how you expand and how you explain
it and how you let them do the activities. Like
there's different ways and there's so much more
to it. And that's, that's one of the other things
I want to bring through with the Forgotten ACE
is that there is so much more to these programs
and people understand. So no, you say that. Absolutely.
Absolutely. You are the indicator if you can
do that. Yeah. Cause you have to plan an activity,
but then gear it up for the older kids, gear
it down, somehow get those kids to interact with
each other and like. like learn from each other
while you're doing these activities too like
it is a very different skill teaching them all
the age and I like it I like that it keeps me
on my toes in that way and like it's very clear
if the activity is not like if the older kids
are just not into it it's no obvious right and
they let you know yeah it's like oh okay cool
that's a good learning moment for me to improve
these these things I'm trying to plan And then
the other thing is like, I love working with
children. Like I just, I find it very rewarding
and very challenging. So I also, even though
I have my masters, I had to go and take other
courses to become licensed as an early childhood
educator. There's a lot of bureaucracy in BC
around that. So I have my ECE now. And part of
why I wanted to get that was because we have
a wage enhancement program in BC. So the government
tops up our hourly rate. If you work in a licensed
center, so that's only for licensed. But that
was another reason that I wanted to work at both
programs was the unlicensed center. Nothing like
government funded applies to that. So it's very
much what the employer will pay the educator.
Whereas licensed, they can have their wage and
this, you know, this place is unionized. So that's,
I'm very lucky that way. But then. There's the
government top up, which in BC is $6 an hour
right now. Six dollars an hour. Okay. My Ontario
friends, if you're listening, did you hear that?
Six dollars an hour. So our wage enhancement
right now, where I work, we're in Ontario, is
$2 .20. Right? Like it's... And yeah, so it's
like, it's great if the center is already offering
a decent wage. There has been some complications
and other childcare centers where they've lowered
the hourly rate because of the top up, but the
top up is not a permanent solution for educator
wages. And it's only because the NDP government
is in charge right now. So we had a provincial
election a few months ago, and that was very
much an issue for a lot of educators. bit worried,
right? That it would be reduced or removed. So
yeah, so it's precarious. That's one of the downsides
of this field is the wages. But that's not why
I went into it, I guess. Like it is and it isn't.
So I keep advocating for more awareness and,
you know, better pay around that. But it is very
much like the hours are great. The people who
are in afterschool programs bring great energy
to the work. Yeah, it's a lot of new experiences.
You get to try out different activities. You
get to go on field trips during camp. There's
a lot of things I really enjoy about it. Oh,
no, that's awesome. Thinking about the funding,
I'm going to go back there for a second because
you talked about... the acronym that involves
cheaper childcare for families? Yeah, so there's
a few different sort of government initiatives
right now. The big one in BC is the $10 a day
program. Yes. So in my work with the Coalition
of Child Care Advocates, that's the main funding
model that we're trying to expand in BC. What's
interesting is most day, like a lot of the $10
day programs that exist are daycares for three
to five. There are a few before and after school
programs that have that funding, but it's quite
rare. It's something that like we're looking
to expand in BC, but right now it's kind of unfortunate
because the $10 a day program was gaining a lot
of momentum the last few years, but right now
it's stalled if not moving backwards. So a lot
of daycares are like not making the criteria,
the amount of paperwork you need to apply for
these programs. Like programming is a huge barrier
for a lot of places. So yeah. And the government
has made a lot of promises that right now they're
just like non -keeping. So, so there's, there's
that. It is amazing because then families pay
like $200 a month, like, which would be incredible,
right? For childcare. There's. One $10 a day
school age program in Squamish and another in
Pemberton. And that one's called See the Sky,
doing really great work. And then there's another
one in Vancouver called Britannica, and they
also have a $10 a day childcare. Wow. But it's
very rare. And then for programs that don't have
that, there's the childcare fee reduction initiative.
And so that - Oh, well, that's what - Yeah, that
one will supplement a lot of the childcare fees
for families. But like in the license program
where I work, it's about 300 a month that families
pay, but it's more expensive for kindergarten
for some reason. And I'm not totally sure why,
but if your child is enrolled in a kindergarten
before an afterschool program, the fees are still
higher. So it's kind of like an interesting,
interesting thing. And then the wage enhancement
is the other like big. funding right now, but
that's for educator wages specifically. So there's
like a few in BC that are good, but yeah, CCFRI
is like definitely something a lot of families
rely on and a lot of programs rely on too. Okay,
yeah. So we have CWELT also because it's national,
which is the $10 day childcare. Same thing though,
especially with the federal election coming up,
we already got emails saying... that we have
to message, basically email our families and
say, we don't know if we're going to be able
to keep doing low fees. But yeah, we don't have
anything else. So our $10 a day does not touch
any before and after school program. It stops
when, well, I shouldn't say that. It stops when
the child turns six. So if they're enrolled in
before and after school program because they're
in kindergarten, they still get a lower fee.
But the day they turn six, it cuts off. So if
they turn six in the middle of the week, literally
half the week they're paying one fee and the
next half of the week they're paying the other
fee. We're not allowed to cover it. So our kindergartens
are paying, we're not at $10 yet. I think we're
at $12. And then my school -ages are paying more
than that. I think in BC, it's like for families,
it can be up to 900 a month per child, which
is pretty amazing. I'm moving to Alberta in a
few months, and I've been doing some research
into the $15 a day program there. Yep. But what's
interesting is that sounds really good, but the
subsidies that families are receiving currently
for their child care is actually like saves them
way more money than $15 a day will. And there's
not been a very clear transition or timeline
for families on that. So their fees are going
to actually go way up with $15 a day. Kind of
interesting because I do think the government
needs to invest in childcare, but there's just
so many contradictory messages and it's very
convoluted where the funding comes from. Like
a lot of ECEs, we just don't know this information
and it's so complicated. And I think for a lot
of programs too, like taking on just a lot of
time and energy for overworked educators, owners
and operators already to apply for these funding
programs. But then the permanency of the funding
is uncertain, right? Like we don't know if it
keeps changing with provincial governments. It's
very obvious that we need to invest in childcare
for families and educators and children, but
it still seems to be up for so much debate in
Canada. So that part can be a little bit discouraging
at times, I think. incredible how needed it was
during COVID and during when they closed it for
a little while and then opened everything back
up and we had to run these programs and all of
a sudden we were important and life was grand.
We weren't paid it, but life was grand and then
everything goes away and we're like, oh yeah,
it's just them again. They don't really need
it. How are families supposed to work? Like are
the fees for groceries and the price of gas and
the price of everything is going up so tremendously
and then All of a sudden now you have to pay
what you would have been paying years ago for
an infant program in before and after school,
because there's nothing to make up the cost for
these centers. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's
the same sort of situation out here too. But
these before and after school care, like I do
see just how like grateful families are and how,
how much. relief they seem to have, like they
know their kids are in these programs, they're
learning, they're making new connections, they
get access to really cool experiences. Yeah,
and you can see like, because most parents come
in to drop their kids off in the morning and
they're like, work clothes, right? And then they
come and pick them up. And it's just, it's so
great that they can work their whole shift and
their kids are somewhere safe, you know, like,
I wish more people had access to that. Well,
again, like The more we talk, the more like I'm
getting all these like, oh my gosh, yeah, let's
talk about that. Oh my gosh, yeah. There's so
much, there's so many differences, but yet we're
so intertwined as a nation in this, the need
of childcare and the struggle we're facing. Speaking
of struggles, what is your attention like for
before and after school educators or like hiring
and recruiting staff? Oh, that's a good question.
I think the main problem. In BC is we just don't
have enough spaces or programs for families.
Like, you know, I live in the city, like the
big city, the lower mainland, where there's the
most programming and the most options for families
because there is a lot of for -profit unlicensed
models that have cropped up too. But from the
research I've done with the coalition, more rural
areas, there's like... child care is even more
scarce and more in demand. Like there's just
not enough spaces, especially for before and
after school care and like school aged care.
In the last few years, we've seen tons of three
to five daycare spots, like in home or, you know,
other, other models for preschoolers, but infant
toddler is super in demand and then school aged
care. So I don't know, like families are relying
on extended family to do pick up and drop off
or like I guess like nanny shares or like you
know getting friends to pick up kids and take
them home so it's just it seems very stressful
right for families who don't have these these
spots and then the families who do are just like
seem very relieved is the perception that I get
we also don't have enough educators we're so
short staffed you know I started at the licensed
program where I work as a substitute but I got
every shift that I ever said I was available
for and I was called in constantly because like
we're just so short staffed and that's even like
with very low certification requirements which
is interesting so and I would say that's in both
licensed and unlicensed are really struggling
to recruit educators but the wage is not very
good so I mean that's kind of like an obvious
sort of fix that we could have obviously for
licensed If you're receiving government funding,
that's one way you could incentivize becoming
a teacher. But for for -profit models, they have
to charge more to families to pay educators more,
right? So it's a little bit of a different situation
there. And then another issue I see a lot in
BC is folks just like don't stay in the field.
Like they will get their ECE license or their
ECEA and they'll do the work for a little bit,
but then they don't. see a future in childcare
or education unless they're in like the public
school system and have access to a pension and
things like that. So, I mean, another barrier
is our licenses expire and we have to keep them
updated every year unless you meet a certain
criteria and then you can apply for a five -year
license. But a lot of educators I know just let
their license expire. And then the way to get
your license back is also quite convoluted. So
it makes me think a lot about just like these
bureaucratic processes that are preventing people
from staying in the field as engaged teachers.
We also have a problem, I'm sure this is the
case in Ontario too, that if you work in alternative
education or childcare, you're just not seen.
as somehow as legitimate of a teacher as if you
work in a school board or a school system. So
I think that's a sort of a bigger perception
of the work that we do, but it definitely influences
all these other factors for why people don't
want to stay in the field. Oh, yeah. Yes, to
all of that, like literally everything you said,
we're feeling here too. It's so hard to to preach
and tell people, like, this is what we need when,
oh, there's no spaces for families and then there's
no staff to run those spaces and no government
support. And then you turn around and then the
families that need us so much is not, my families
are great. I'm sure your families are great.
It's not, it's not them, but the wider community
is looking at us like we're babysitters and what
do we need them for? Yeah, it's a lot, but I
mean, the teachers who do stay in are in because
they care about the work and they care about
the relationships and they know it's important.
And there's a lot of self -advocacy that goes
along with being any kind of early childhood
educator. So I think you get a lot of really
passionate people who are doing this incredible
work, but it's hard because the value of the
work is not reflected in a lot of really important
ways right now, especially with just how expensive
everything is, right? So I used to teach at Native
Education College in Vancouver. I used to teach
pre -service educators who wanted to become ECEs.
And it's hard because a lot of them would do
their practicum and, you know, they'd be offered
a position. But yeah, it was hard to see them
like their license would expire and they wouldn't
renew it because sometimes it's not clear how
you're supposed to go about that. Or they would
just say, the wage is just too low. Like I need
a higher paying position. I think there's a lot
of things we could do structurally to make this
job more valuable, but that's going to like,
that's going to take time. And yeah, I agree.
It's not the families, the families recognize
the work and they're typically very grateful,
right? Cause otherwise they wouldn't be able
to have their jobs if their kids weren't. Yeah.
It's kind of nice to hear that you can relate
to a lot of this in Ontario, but it's also kind
of like, oh man, this problem is really big.
Yeah. It's, it's, it's a little disheartening
because it's not like one province gets it. I
mean, you're the first province I'm talking to
obviously about you, but BC is the first province
I'm talking to you. But I, from what I hear,
we're everywhere in Canada is feeling the same.
Your licensing process. So we have, we're similar.
We have a year license and we pay for, they just
up the fees to $175 a year. Do you have to pay
a fee to be licensed? No, no, I'll share that
too. Don't say that out here. I'm just kidding.
People are gonna be so angry. Five a year? Yeah,
and they went up. It used to, when I started,
it was, I want to say it was 150. It might've
been even 130 when I started, and now it's up
to 135, and it's a huge deterrent for people.
And we did nothing. Like, it's not, it's not
like it's advertised for us. Really what it is,
it's... It's like a governing board. It's called
the College of ECEs. It's a governing board so
that families know that the educators that are
working in these centers that are licensed are
good people, that they're improving their development
or early child's education. But also if there
was any problems, if anyone got in trouble for
doing something they shouldn't be, they would
be reprimanded through the College of ECEs. So
it's really just this way of guaranteeing families
that educators are good, that they're doing what
they should be doing. But it's not like we get
discounted. like our College of Teachers provides
discounts if you are a teacher. And not that
they're great, but at least they provide something.
But we got nothing for the College of ECEs. And
we have to, yeah, we renew every year. And then
we also have... It's called CPL, which I actually
really like because I'm obsessed with learning.
I mean, it sounds similar to you, but we're mandated
that we have to do so much learning each year
and fill out this reflective practice and they
can audit us. And if they audit us and we don't
get that in, we lose our license. So there's
a lot that go into it. Very, very systematic.
And that's really what it is. It's all about
politics and people having control, but whether
or not it's beneficial is up for grabs. And it
is causing a lot. of chaos, especially on the
internet where people can yell all day and night.
Yeah. I agree that fee sounds actually quite
high. That would be a deterrent, especially when
you're getting your ECE. You guys have to do
practicums as well, right? Oh, yeah. Unpaid?
Yes. So we don't have to pay the fine, the fee.
We don't have to pay the fee until you graduate
and then you join the college. But yeah, we have
unpaid practicums. It cannot be paid. Like, I
mean, if you're through the apprenticeship, you
can, but like as a regular college program, it
can't be paid. Yeah. And that's, that was really
hard even to get. Students to continue like it's
unpaid for three months out here. You have to
do two or three, but it has to be 425 hours of
unpaid work. Oh, wow. So then you finally finish
and you graduate, but that's hard for people,
especially like. You know, if you're a single
parent and you're trying to get the certificate
at a job, like it's hard. And maybe Ontario has
some, like you mentioned that one program that
offers a little bit, like it doesn't cover the
whole cost, but it offers a little bit. And out
here we have the early childhood educators at
BC, which I know you've heard of. And they, they
are amazing because they give students a lot
of bursary funding if you're pursuing your ECE
education. Yeah. Like they paid for half of my
tuition. So like when I'm getting my one year
ECE license and that's amazing. Like that makes
it easier to get into the program and fund your
education, but it's hard. It's like a lot for
educators. And then there's other jobs out there,
other industries where there's no way you would
be unpaid. for your work practicum, right? Like.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think about what you're
saying, like, yes, the unpaid work, like all
of our, like, welding or anything you go into
as a trade, which they talk about early childhood
education here as a trade, but it's not like
it's treated the same. It's all paid, unless
I'm wrong, but it's all paid co -ops. Yeah. Or
apprenticeships where like you're not making
a full wage, but you are making something and
that would be really nice. a little incentive.
Now we do have, I just wanted to throw this out
there. We do have ECE Grants of Ontario, which
is literally just ECEgrants .ca .com. I'll put
it in the show notes. But they offer a grant
program. It's not, they get funding, but a lot
of people apply, so not everyone gets the funding,
but for... getting your ECE, they will pay if
you get, if you use them to get your ECE, I believe
they also, you can apply to get your first college
of ECE year paid for. And then I've used them
to like further my education. So I took a leadership
in ECE course and I got all of my fees paid for
through them. And then also bookkeeping. So that
I could further my, as a supervisor, I could
further my knowledge in that. And they also were
able to pay for my ruling for that. So it's been
incredible that way. We do have, yeah. So we
do have some, it's just, it's about finding them,
right? Yeah. And it seems to be like grassroots
community organized, like organizations that
do that. And I think the thing is we need more
government support and funding as well. Like
that's the piece that seems to be missing across
Canada. Yeah. So I don't know. This is great.
It's good to hear what's out there for Ontario.
Oh, right. Yeah. So let's take a little turn
into, not that we weren't talking positive because
some of it's positive, but I want to hear if
you could share a success story or a moment you're
particularly proud of within your programs. Yeah,
so one of the things that's really important
to me as an educator is like I try to teach from
a place of relationship So relationship building
takes time And especially with some students
or children, it takes longer, right? For whatever
reason, there's kids who present different challenges
or they have their own traumas that they're bringing.
So relationship building means a lot to me. And
I think that's one of the really cool parts of
being in before and after school care is... You
get to know the families that use this service.
You get to see the kids grow up. So, you know,
some of these kids I've known since they were
three in the, so the licensed program where I
work, it's actually under an umbrella organization
out here. We have neighborhood houses and they're
kind of like community hubs and they just offer
lots of different programming for communities.
But the daycare where I substitute is like the
under the same umbrella as before and after school
program. So I've got to see some of the children
that I've worked with at the daycare grow up,
graduate from daycare and go into kindergarten
at the before and after school program. And,
you know, there was a moment in early September
where I had sort of forgotten that that was going
to happen. And then I saw these two kids in particular
who had just started elementary school and, you
know, the moment where they like came into the
space and like I saw them and they saw me and
we already had this relationship built. It was
just so beautiful and it meant a lot to me because
I was a substitute at that point, right? And
yeah, we already had this really great trusting
relationship and I think it just kind of created
a lot of comfort for them too, right? Because
that's a big transition from daycare into a big
elementary school. So there's that as sort of
a success story, just like seeing the kids grow
and transition into these different parts of
their lives is really special for me. And then
the parents too, they're like, oh, you work here
too. I'm like, yeah, I work in both. So that's,
that's kind of lovely as well. Another story
I have for the unlicensed. So there was one day
I'd been working, teaching like a preschool class.
It's sort of like an on English and math class,
I would say. And there was one child who I've
worked with, with him for maybe two and a half
years now. And there was one day he just like
would not come into the center. Like he just
refused, but he doesn't at this time, he was
so very nonverbal. So it was hard to kind of
understand like why he didn't want to come in
because nothing had happened that was out of
the ordinary, like, you know, previously. the
parents were also like we don't really understand
like but he just like doesn't want to come in
and I would never force a kid to like kind of
like you don't need to come if you don't want
to like situation this was on like a saturday
class and anyways we figured out like we did
he eventually came in it took some like you know
encouragement we had a fine class but the next
The next week it happened again. So eventually
we figured out he wanted his little brother to
also come into the class and that that was the
issue was he just he didn't want to do it by
himself anymore. He was like, no, my brother's
ready to join this class. And yeah, I've been
teaching both of them in that class now. And
sometimes teaching siblings together is very
difficult in a group situation. And these two
are so lovely. And the learning that is happening
with both of them there is just like exponential,
like it's just the communication between them.
Yeah, so I don't know, like, I don't think that
any of those moments would have happened without,
like, relationship as the foundation. And I think
that that's one of the most rewarding parts about
being an educator is these kids, like, I don't
know, it's just like they, it means so much to
me, right, that they trust me that much and that
it's reciprocal in that way and we can do this
work together. It's really special. I love that
so much. I often talk about how hard it is for
us as educators at ECEs all around to build these
incredible relationships with these children
and then they go off and they graduate or they
move or they leave us and they go somewhere else.
wherever the world takes them, and then they
forget about you. Maybe they don't forget about
you. We leave lasting impressions, that's so
true, but sometimes families don't think about
the impact their child has on us also. And then
you spend the night sitting, when you're thinking
in bed at night, when your brain is working,
it's not supposed to be, and you're like... I
wonder what ever happened to so and so or I think
about this person. And sometimes you don't find
out. Sometimes they just go on and graduate.
Like I know for our before and after school programs,
we're attached to childcare center, which is
also attached to school. So we're lucky if the
kids from childcare go to that school, because
then they get to come to our before and after
school program. Yeah. So very similar. But if
they don't, sometimes you never see them again.
And it's so sad because you do, you spend all
this time making these relationships. And I wholeheartedly
agree with you. I think that relationship is
the foundation of our care of, of caring and
building these, to helping build these children
who are, are incredible human beings. And you
just, all of a sudden they're just gone. And
like, that was a whole, maybe it was a year,
maybe it was three years and they just disappear.
I just had a, a child who's been in before and
after school since I started. So about five years
and they aged out. So they're, they're done.
And that's just it. They're, they're gone. And
I'm like, that can't be good. I just had them
for five years of my life. true and like It's
hard to trust that we made a lasting impact.
Like they might not consciously remember us later
on, but maybe there's something we did that will
stick with them. I always try to remind myself
of that. Like maybe there was an activity that
just, you know, they'll always think about. I
don't know. Like as it is, it's really hard to
say goodbye. I think that is a tough part of
the job because we do take the time to get to
know these kids, right? Like for who they are
as individual learners and they can make you
laugh. Oh, yeah. So that is, that is tricky,
but it's very cool that you had five years with
that family and that child. Like I think that
kid will definitely remember you. You know, I
hope so. And like, I think like I've been doing
this for a long time. So even like, if I have
families on Facebook, I don't, there's so much
around that. So I'll just precursor that with,
I definitely don't add families to Facebook,
but if they add me, I do add them. because I
don't share anything on Facebook anyways. But
it's cool to watch their kids grow up. And I
just I've been doing this like working as an
REC is what we call it here. Yeah. For going
on. Oh, my gosh. It has to be 14 years now. And
some of the kids that I started with when I was
in placement have graduated college. And I get
to see them on Facebook, graduating college.
And if I saw them on the street, they probably
would never say anything. And that's totally
okay. But watching them through their family's
lives, like graduating, being successful, and
all of the sudden, it's like, it's so empowering.
Like, wow, I remember you when you were like
10. I remember you when you were nine. Yeah,
it's beautiful. Like, honestly, it's hard to
let them go. But yeah, trusting that that connection
was there and that it was, you know, really important
in their life. Like, I don't know. It's, it's
really cool to see that. Yeah. It solidifies
the work that we do is important and it's, it's,
it's lasting and on both sides. How does your
program address inclusivity and support diverse
needs in both the licensed and unlicensed? Yeah.
So this is something I really care a lot about
is making sure it's actually inclusive. So at
the license program, we actually make sure that
we always have enough staff for one -on -one
support for children with high support needs.
Wow. Yeah. So there's two children in particular
who, one is in a wheelchair and she has cerebral
palsy and the other, and I think she's in like
grade five now and the other student has Down
syndrome and is nonverbal. So there's always
one staff with both of them when they're at the
program so that their needs are being met. And
we switch off and take rotations every day so
that they get to work with all the staff. That's
great. Honestly, I'm so proud of that. I think
it's really fantastic. But something else we
do, that program is 67 kids. That's a lot. Yeah,
so we do a lot of small group activities, actually.
There's some larger group activities like marathon
club. You don't have to run, but you do have
to do at least one loop, right? Take however
long you need. But like, we do a lot of smaller
group activities so that the kids can explore
their own interests. And we offer them a lot
of choices in like within that. So like, you
know, maybe the leaders, the older kids, we call
them the leaders, they are doing like, we'll
say like, okay, you can do like beading or there's
always Lego, Lego super popular, like, so they
can choose their own activities. Or if we're
offering something more structured, there's still
often choice within that. And we don't force
kids, if they really don't want to do something
sensory, that's okay. So I think that that allows
for kids to really figure out, try new things
if they're open to it, but then also know that
their preferences and their experience is still
being honored. And then they get to spend a lot
of time with their peers. So I think that that's
another way. we will provide opportunities for
engagement. Like we do baking with them. Sometimes
we do a lot of art. There's a lot of sports.
So I feel like their interests are like reflected
in activities we offer, but they also get to
hang out with their friends. If that's what they
want to do and just like chill, they can do that
too. And then at the unlicensed program, because
it's more academic, one of the focuses there
that I feel proud of is it's very individualized
for the child. If the parents want them to focus
more on the language side of things, we'll do
an assessment of their language skills and then
we will focus on teaching them that part of English
or Chinese or French or whatever language it
is that they are being supported in. That's really
great because I think it helps the kids. They're
still learning in a group setting. being exposed
to like kids at different levels but they also
have work that they're doing that's empowering
to them because they can do it it's like at their
level so it's like a positive feedback loop and
a positive experience for learning but i think
like within the larger group having small group
opportunities is one of the best ways to support
kids wherever they're at and then just like really
taking time for social emotional stuff like people
want to rush through that a lot as educators
and in a large program it's easy to overlook
these sort of like micro -interactions but yeah
we spend a lot of time talking about how best
to respond to certain things to prevent bullying
and to make sure that kids are feeling safe with
their friends and that they know the staff and
the educators are like aware of the dynamics
that are going on socially yeah and we don't
really have like screen time unless we're watching
like a short video or something. But okay, it's
all very like hands on, like personalized learning.
Yeah, we don't we don't have screen time either.
But I love what you said, like, individualized
learning is is huge. And I think like, like you
said, meeting children where they're at is the
way that they're going to be successful and a
great way to make sure they're included. Like
we've we chatted earlier about how When you have
children that are four and five years old and
you have children that are eight, nine, 10, 11,
it's hard to teach them all the same thing or
similar things. But when you individualize it,
you're teaching to the level they're at instead
of just to the broader sense of the group. Yeah.
And it is more work. It's more consideration
on the part of the teacher. But I don't know.
You can see that it's like playing out properly
and that they're engaged. And that's the thing
that like... is like, okay, that bit of extra
work was worth it because every kid is feeling
engaged and like they're comfortable right now
with what they're learning. And like, yeah, it's
great to see that kind of dynamic happening.
Yeah, that's something like really rewarding.
But I think about school aged care in particular.
No, I agree with you 100%. Looking ahead, why
would you like to see change in school aged care
within British Columbia or in Canada as a whole.
Okay. Well, I feel like I kind of said a lot
of that already, but more programming in general.
Like I just think we need more programming. If
there's a way that we can make this work, like
happening more in the schools themselves so that
like, you know, like I get like the the teacher,
the teacher in the regular school day, like they've
finished their job. But then like the ECEs or
the RECEs, like if there's a way to make it so
that they can go to that school and there's a
space for the before and after school care, like
I just think there's ways to make that happen
in collaboration with the school and other programs.
Like it would just increase accessibility for
a lot of people, I think. Better payment for
educators would be great, especially because
If you work before and after school care, you're
probably doing a split shift a lot of times,
right? I think that's one of the things that
makes the job unique. There's great things about
having a split shift, but it's also difficult
for some folks, right? So I think we just need
better payment to make that like incentivized.
Like, yeah, that would be great. Or if we had
more staff and there was just always morning
folks and then afternoon folks, but there's just
not enough staff. So like that's not possible
yet. I would love to see a greater acknowledgement,
just socioculturally, that this work is important
and that this service is important to so many
families. It's a very fast -paced world that
we live in now and it's expensive and people
need to know their kids are safe and they need
to be able to work. Before and after school care...
literally facilitates a lot of that for families
and it helps people you know if you move somewhere
in Canada and you are newly migrated and the
rest like your extended family isn't here but
you have this service where you can make sure
your kids are like looked after so you can go
to work like that will help people so much. I
just, I don't know, I wish more people had access
to it in general, because then they would understand
the benefits a bit better, whereas it feels very
niche and only certain people have access to
it, right? Yeah, better payment and more programming.
I love it. I wholeheartedly agree. And I hope,
I hope that maybe we see that with the new election
and with the new and the new, the next couple
of years as, as things change and as we get more
into this, hopefully more into this funding for
childcare. I hope so. I have one more question
for you. Thanks so much for sticking around and
answering everything. What advice would you give
to new educators stepping into a before and aftercare
role? Yeah. So one thing I love is you can bring
new ideas. Kids have already been in school all
day. So bring, even if they seem like weird ideas,
there's so much we can do, right? And there's
so many different types of learning that we can
do. Like we can get messy. We can do science
experiments. We can go outside. We can do field
trips during summer camp and things like that
like it's bring new ideas to the field because
sometimes teachers are tired and if you're if
you're new like fresh ideas are always appreciated
so that's good it's also like very fast paced
like the hours are really cool if you don't like
to get up too early all the time you could do
the afternoon shift right so but the shifts are
short and it's really fast paced so that works
well i think if you know if that's what you're
looking for and you don't want to do eight -hour
shifts or if you you know I don't know it's just
like nice to have like that kind of flexibility
these programs like if you work in a program
like this it also works well if you have multiple
jobs so like I've always had a lot of different
jobs at once and I actually really like that
I really thrive on that so like if you're someone
who enjoys trying different things that maybe
like relies on the gig economy a bit more. I
think before and after school programming like
can be a good fit. So the other thing is even
if you get started in a before and after school
care program in BC, you only have your responsible
adult or you only have your ECE assistant, you
can keep going and then you'll have access to
the wage enhancement and you'll get a raise,
$6 right now, which is amazing. So that part,
I think like that's good incentive as well. And
then I like teaching this age group because they
ask so many juicy questions and they will challenge
you as an educator in so many different ways.
Like, yes, they were in school all day, but by
the time you get them, like they've been thinking
about what they're learning in school and it's
like a different vibe. So they sometimes are
more relaxed. They feel more comfortable asking
their before and after school teachers these
questions. You get to play with them. You get
to go outside and do cool field trips. I don't
know. There's just so many benefits, I think,
to doing this work. And the relationship is really
different. It's lovely. But it's different than
being their regular school teacher. And I think
the kids are aware of that, right? I recommend
it. I think it's good because it keeps you flexible
as a teacher. So yeah, I don't know. There's
a lot of reasons to go into this field. You'll
meet passionate folks like Jamie, but there's
just so many great benefits to it. I think it
could lead to other possibilities. Maybe you
do find you really love working with grade three
students and then you could go into being a grade
three teacher or something like that. But I like
the diversity of before and after school care.
I like how much different types of activities
we get to do. That's so fun. There's a lot. No
one can see your face, but you're shining when
you talk about all the amazing things that come
with before and after school. This is why I do
what I do. This is why I'm here is because of
that passion that you're talking about and that
you're alluding to. That's exactly what I feel
when I talk about before and after school education
and the children that we get to work with. Thank
you so, so, so much for being here and sharing.
Is there anything else you want to say? Is there
a place that the listeners can reach out and
ask questions about childcare, about BC, about,
I mean, maybe Alberta, because you're moving
there? I actually have a question for you. So
there's some folks who have been advocating for
like a universal childcare system in Canada.
Like what are your thoughts on that? Do you think
we should keep it provincial or do you think
it's possible to have like an across Canada like
structure? Oh, what a great question. Honestly,
I think we're better in numbers. So if we could
do universal, as long as it was built properly
and they took into consideration early child
educators who are in the field and working towards
that and the individuals that actually do the
research that are getting their masters in early
childhood education that are on the floor working
every day with these children, as long as they
took that into account, I think a national sort
of plan would be incredible. I think that we
need this community. And I think that the older
I get, the more the early child education community
means to me, where when I first started, it was
like, yeah, I'm an educator. I like the people
I work with. This is great. But like on a national
level, everyone is doing this incredible work.
And I think that we could really help each other
out and be a part of something great if it was
if it was looked at that way. I think Wow. That
would be a dream come true. What do you think?
Why are your thoughts similar? Do you think that
it's better if we do a province to province?
I don't know yet. That's why I kind of wanted
to ask you. Like it's something I think about.
I like everything you just said. So yeah, if
it was built on that foundation of like, but
it would, it would take a lot of dedication to
making sure that educators' voices and experiences
are actually centered in whatever structure we
make. Cause so often it feels like policy is
made. but it doesn't actually like, it's not
coming from the people doing that, that work,
like the work with families directly. So, but
it would be really amazing because it would also
mean we could streamline some of the certification
processes and like professionalize the career,
like you were saying. Yeah. And it would be nice
because then maybe you could like go and work
in different provinces for a little bit. Right.
So the community could become maybe more tight
knit, even though it's bigger. Yeah. Where if
I was leaving Ontario to go work in BC, I wouldn't
have to change my credentials to do that. I could,
I would already be okay to work there. I think
that would be important, but you're absolutely
right. Right now. And I will call it out the
way it is. The people that are making the rules
for early child educators are sitting in offices
that have no children around them. If they do,
it's the kids that are being watched by educators
while they're at work all day. And they don't,
they're not in it. They don't know what we deal
with, what we go through, the good, the bad,
the ugly. They don't know any of that. And they
shouldn't be the ones that are making rules for
us. Absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know.
It would be, I think it's a cool. dream. And
that's why I wanted to ask you your perspective,
because I think it's worth thinking about and
like imagining, but I don't totally know like
how to go about it yet. So it's just something
I wanted to see. No, I'm glad you asked because
yeah, it's definitely not something I had really
thought about before, but it's... And as far
as like reaching out to me, I have Facebook,
I have LinkedIn, I have Blue Sky now. What is
Blue Sky? Like the alternative Twitter or X.
Yeah. So those are the social media that I have,
but I can also give you my email address if you
want. I don't know. I'm available for questions
on social media. I don't have a website right
now, but maybe later. No, that's okay. You know
what? Facebook and LinkedIn. LinkedIn's huge
now. LinkedIn. And now Blue Sky. I got to check
out this Blue Sky because I had never heard of
it. So that's really great. Aw, thank you for
spending your... Wow, okay, afternoon. It's gonna
be 3 .30, right? I finally... You guys have no
idea how long we've been talking, and it's taking
me to wrap my head around that they're three
hours behind. So strange, right? But thank you
so much for having me. This conversation is like,
these are always things I'm thinking about, so
it's just really nice to share it with somebody
else who... also is always thinking about these
things, you know? Oh, amazing. Yeah. Well, thank
you everyone. And the show nuts, I'll leave.
I'll leave where to find Kaylee. And I hope everyone
has a fantastic day. Bye. Thank you. Amazing
listeners for your support. Don't forget to follow
me on Instagram at miss Jamie underscore REC.
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and happy learning.