Welcome to the Forgotten ECE, the show where before and after school educators, summer camp and PD staff and CYWs have a place where they are seen, heard and valued.
I'm your host, Jamie Wakeler, and I'm so excited you're here.
Welcome to the Forgotten ECE. I'm so excited today because I have Amanda Lucier here, who's a registered early childhood educator with over 14 years experience in the field.
For the last eight years, she served as a supervisor of a busy center providing care for children from infancy all the way to school age. Her journey began as an assistant and she worked her way up to her current role.
She says that her current role that allows her to witness and contribute to the evolving landscape of child care.
She's a dedicated individual to creating nurturing environments that support children's growth and development while also advocating for positive change within our child care system. Welcome, Amanda.
Hello. Hello. I'm so excited.
This has been a long time coming. Amanda and I've been talking for a while getting her on the podcast. So this is so exciting.
This is super huge. I'm super excited. Thank you for having me.
No. Oh my God, my pleasure.
It's like when you finally meet somebody in the flesh, you're like, Oh my God, you are real.
Absolutely. Absolutely. So close. And then soon it'll be going out for coffee or something.
Girl, you never know.
I love it.
So we're just going to talk to Amanda. We're going to talk to you about your journey in before and after school programs and then what that transition transition looked like to the supervisor role and then your concept of the forgotten EC to end off the day.
I love it.
So I'll jump in and then just ask some questions and then feel free to cut in. And if the conversation goes aloof, that's okay.
All right. Can you share your experience working in before and after school programs? How did you first get started in this field?
I have been working in this field, like you said, the past 14 years. I started as an assistant with the company that I work for now.
Oddly enough, the before and after school program thing was always something to me. I grew up in before and after school care myself.
And my director is my aunt. And so it was just a natural transition to kind of fall into that assistant when it came time for me to look for jobs.
And at that time, you're 16, 17, you're young, you don't really want to work all day. So before and after school seems like glorious.
I was able to still do stuff in the middle of the day, however, had that interaction in the morning. It's kind of just blossomed from there.
I am a people person. I love to engage. I love children. And I decided, you know what, maybe it's something I should invest in.
I didn't really know what I wanted to do after high school. And so, yeah, it just it just progressed from there.
I put myself through school. I did the Loyalist route. I completed the program in a year and a half.
I just buckled down working before and after school hours as an assistant, did my schooling in between, did my placements in between my shifts, which was really awesome because before and after school gave you that ability.
I hear hold on. I'm going to cut you off. Like a year and a half. You did the whole program in a year and a half.
A year and a half on Loyalist. Yeah, man.
That's amazing.
Like the one thing about that was because we work before and after school hours doing the apprenticeship program, you don't get enough hours, even in the three years to complete it.
You wouldn't have enough hours. So you have to have like I had to get like a letter from my director stating like this is what I work on a consistent basis and feasibility wise, this is not going to happen.
However, the plan is to continue to work. And that's what I did.
And then they accepted the letter and a year and a half, I was done. And so I stayed with my company. I worked as an REC in the classroom and decided that at one point I was worth more.
I thought, you know what, before and after school, I'm good. I can do more than this. I want to work full day hours.
I took a leave of absence from my position and I went to the board, found that I was pregnant in the interim and did my nine months with the school board and went on maternity leave.
In order to come back to work, you don't have to put this in there, but I'm just going to keep rambling.
No, you're doing great. Keep going.
So I went on that leave and I didn't really want to go back to the school board. It just wasn't my thing. I don't like, you know, hopping school to school.
There was no real consistency as an educator. It just wasn't my flow. So I applied for supervisor's position with my current company and I got it.
Yay.
The downfall, it was 45 minutes from home and working before school, before and after school hours while working, like being 45 minutes from home isn't really feasible for anybody.
However, I made it work and took on extra roles that would give me some more hours in between. And that way I just stayed in the town that I was working in.
Fast forward 10 years almost and we are the biggest center within our company, the 182 license spots.
I house a staff of 16 and I would not change anything about it.
Oh my gosh, there's so much you said there. First of all, the fact that you made it work, because that's huge for especially for before and after school educators.
It's so hard. And I talk about this lots about how it just it's so broken that these amazing educators are in before and after school programs, but they have to work around this split shift that there has to be something to give.
But you made it work. And I look at you now.
I know now I work, I work all day, right, a full eight hour shift. But I am the first one to advocate before and after school. That is all I know. I would never have changed.
I tried to change the path, right. And it didn't work for me. And there's a different sense of I don't even know how to explain it with before and after school children.
It's just it's just a different level of connection with them. Yeah, that you you don't get maybe possibly from an eight hour day shift. I don't know.
I'm pro before and after school hours. So that's what we need. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. And you're absolutely right. Your podcast is like the whole point of it.
We're digressing, but the whole point of it, I totally grasp. And it's the voice that everybody needs. Like it's what we need. Like this is exactly what before and after school educators need in order to get us where we need to be.
Like this is what's going to start it. I love that you're doing this, dude. No, because there's not there's not enough for before and after school educators. There isn't. And your podcasts have definitely helped aspire my other educators in the field.
So 1000 percent. Oh, that's so sweet. No, I love it. And that's and that's exactly what I started. And I why I started and because these educators like they're they're special people to to work in a before and after school program and deal with all the and I say this lightly.
But like the crap, the crappy shift, the true the splits, the attitudes and stuff. But the kids are so worth it. And they just you don't want them to miss out on these experiences that they can have with amazing staff and educators.
That's the experiences that they can have. That is perfectly set. Perfect. Okay. Wow. So over the years, all of these amazing things you've done and like you have you have different experiences before and after school or with with school age in general, because you worked in the school board.
Have you noticed any key changes in like these programs or the children or the policies that relate around school age programs?
I can say that in the last 14 years, I've worked plus in child care. The need for care is is prevalent. It's getting more prevalent as you know, the next generation to have children.
So the level of care has changed. I would say policies, I wouldn't notice much change in them. There are some things that you know, have made a difference in programs for before and after school.
COVID really did a number on us right with policies a lot changed during then. And so keeping those same policies that we use during COVID but then trying to revert back to old policies kind of I feel like we're kind of like in the middle of you know.
Yeah, no, exactly. The COVID definitely threw a number on everything. Yeah. And now that parents are going back to work. I find obviously cares needed way more than it was before. And yeah, I live in a small town and our town is subdivision galore they're building and so we're having out of town people move into town and I have been trying well I have the rooms but I was trying for two additional rooms for the last year and a half to house an additional 50 kids. Yeah.
And those those spots were already taken based off the waitlist we had had like it's just intense. So your waitlist for before and after school it's crazy to my waitlist for before and after school currently goes into 2027 and my learning center so my infancy through to preschoolers.
We're looking at 2028 for the preschool room in general and toddler and infant you're about a year out. Wow. And so here in. I'm in southern Ontario, we run, like we are waitlist is like managed by the city like it's a yeah, yours the same one HSN.
Yeah, yeah. So this is the thing though. I think everybody uses one HSN in a different aspect in terms of their waitlist I've always used the waitlist one HSN as my, my second source like I always take phone calls first and then I'll go to one HSN to correlate if they've
signed up or not.
Yes, and giving any center a call, giving any center call and asking that way. What unique aspects of school age or before and after school. Do you find most rewarding or challenging.
So we're, we, we all know as educators that before and after school hours aren't the best. So right now currently we are struggling to find staff for those hours.
I think that's the same across the board majority of educators I find right out of school, don't think that our, our positions are worth their wild. Yeah, that's that's the main challenge in terms of reward, the connection we have with our children, it's a different connection
right we see them in the morning at the beginning of the day when they're hyped up and they're ready to go. And they go to school things transpire during the day you know we might get in trouble we might have a rough day, and sometimes we come to after
school care and we're miserable, and we just need that educator there to comfort. And so I think the most rewarding is being that before and that after for that child because we can help them through at any point.
Yeah, I think before and after school just gives you a different aspect in terms of the connection.
Everything did I love before and after school. I feel the same way like I do I do and I agree and I, I think it's also important like that when they come to after school whether they had a crappy day at school it doesn't like their day starts over with you
like it's, it's, you know, take anything that happened at school into your program and you're like, Yeah, like, what's it's a fresh start, don't worry about the day. Exactly. I love it.
Amazing. Hopefully I'm answering these questions okay, you're doing a great job, Amanda I love you you're doing amazing. Absolutely very, you know, part of myself, evidently, yeah, well that's okay, I'm here to not be hard on you so you're good.
Challenging is staffing is this staffing for sure. Hmm, staffing that it is hard and like I'm finding I don't know if you find the same in a supervisor role, because we're going to get into the supervisor role but in a supervisor role, it's hard, it's hard to evaluate the staff that are coming in
like I know the, the licensing just changed so that you don't, you don't need REC in these programs you could have a child and youth worker or recreation staff, but it's not it's not like our, they didn't expand our, our application for us right yeah that's not okay for us so yeah, and it didn't expand our applications
it's not like we're having more qualified staff like in these other areas, come in and apply we're still having no one and the people that apply. No offense or just not a little offense or just they don't know what they're doing.
Yeah, they don't and that's a problem.
Absolutely. Okay, so what you kind of talked about already but I'll just re asked like what motivated you to transition into a supervisory role.
So as a as a human being, I like, you probably shouldn't put this in there but I like control.
I chose to go into the supervisory role to learn more as an educator to learn that side of being an REC because being in the classroom you know you hop from room to room, be it kindergarten or primary junior one or two, but I wanted to learn more I wanted to understand
the processes I wanted to know more in depth procedures, I want to be the one that people come to for help I love when my staff lean on me that's what I'm there for. If I can go into the classroom at any point of the day, and help alleviate some of that pressure
or that worry, I'll do it for them. I'm, I participate in before and after school programs as it does I'll go into the classroom myself, we know you minister guidelines don't allow supervisors to be in classrooms of, you know, with so much staff, but you'll see my face in those rooms
every day. Yeah, I love being the one that's responsible for everything I love the responsibility of staff and schedules, and yeah, everything. No, that's great and like and it sounds like you you utilize this time to because then you get to be in all the class like
you pop in and you say hi you check in on the staff and you just play. Yeah, I, I, I try to be as present as I can, which is not always easy. I was talking for no it's not.
Not when you run a big center it's it's definitely not but if I can help support them in some aspect. And that's really what I have to do.
Absolutely. And then as a supervisor, how do you ensure that your educators feel value and like as if they're an integral part of the team so like I hear you say you pop in which is already incredible because I know there's centers that don't like the supervisor
stay in the office and popping in. Yeah, you see frustration on a staff space you just you know go take your time morning coffee drop off is a hit in our center. I'm just valuing the staff, any which way, I find is what's making my team more wholesome, and I've done a lot of learning
myself this past year in terms of teamwork, and I'm realizing my role as a supervisor maybe what I wasn't doing prior that would make my team not feel as valued or integral parts, but I would like to say this year I've made major strides and I would hope my staff would
say the same thing. I need that tissue paper and we don't have any. I'll see in a couple I'm going to run to the store, I'm going to go grab it with my money and we will get it back. Yeah, just anything I can do to help alleviate something from them.
Absolutely and in a sense, like, and I know I'm not downplaying because like the forgotten EC is about all all educators as we'll talk about but obviously a big part of my heart is before and after school but supervisors in a supervisor role it's hard sometimes to remember
that we are also our ECS and like that's where our heart is like our, my heart is with the children it's not like I do I am the same way I love, I love the aspects of control I love the aspects of having people rely on me and I love the aspects of being that person but
like my heart is with the children. I was an EC, an REC first and I will always be an REC. In my mind I say that the staff do the integral part which is the documentation, the expansion of learning, but we as supervisors, we're the ones who play, we get to enjoy the play with them so that is the greatest part of being a supervisor.
It is, it is, it so is and like, and making, I don't know if you're run by a board of directors or if you're a standalone set like what? We're a board of directors. Us too, okay, us too.
The amount that you put into advocating for your center and your staff and how to support your educators like there's just there's just a lot of support I'm not just saying that about like myself I'm not saying that I'm just saying like in, in general there's not a lot of support for educators
and they're, they're feeling it like look at, look at Toronto right now with all the staff going on strikes and all the protests and stuff like there's crazy things happening because of a lack of support and we, we just need our, we supervisors work so hard to make their educators feel like they're supported.
Oh, that's so, oh that's so true. That resonates.
We're fighting an endless battle but we're putting our heart and soul into it.
Yeah, I find myself like in like group discussions, I find myself that I cry a lot just, it ends up being because I'm just so passionate about our field and like you asked me this years ago as an educator I'd be like meh, whatever.
But for some reason over the past little while it's just like drive has driven, like just to be, just to make us better. I don't know. I don't know. Like I said to someone, we are the foundation for every little kid like we are the ones they start with we build their foundations
for the teachers in JK and grade one to grow on top of we are the reason that they are the way they are. And why not invest in educators in order to get that positive outcome right?
No, you gave me goosebumps. You're 100% right though like this is it like okay the engineer working on the head, the head, the what engineers do the architect building buildings, all these people started as a child and someone had to build this foundation.
And now was that why I mean it wasn't us but it was those old people who were ahead of us. Absolutely, absolutely. It was educators.
That's what drives me mad. It drives me. I just don't. I, and like everybody says you hate hearing the word babysitter. I, you know what, at this point when someone says oh it's like a babysitter I said you know what it very well is because a babysitter sometimes is with your kids more than you are.
Yes, yes, I was just having this conversation. It's so funny that you said that. I was just having this conversation with a parent like I, they don't understand like we have their child sometimes from infant, toddler, preschool, school age, and then all of a sudden they just disappear.
They just go, they go on to the next school, they move, they have the audacity to leave us and then no one comes back to check but I was a part of that life for so long like it's heartbreaking.
I sent a text to a parent this because we had Halloween within the school that the school participates with us and instead of taking our kids like out trick or treating, we do it inside of our school.
And one of our kids that were helping hand out candy is a grade eight and we've had him since he was four years old and I tell you right now when this man opened the door, I could see this little boy from seven years ago opening the door as a JK.
It was like a flashback and it was this family I am best friends with now outside of, you know, the four work walls, but it was such an epiphany like it gave me chills and I cried instantaneously and he's like, why are you crying?
I'm like, Lukey, you have no idea what seeing you right now does to me because I know what you've, you've come through. Like I know every, you know, you're just, you're there.
Yeah, I don't know. I love it. I love it.
You do too. I do too. We're preaching. This is why we just need to take on the world. We do. We really do. If you imagine. Yes.
So you see, you should obviously run the country. I'm just saying.
We do and that's what's terrible about our field is that it's just not, we could be so much more.
Okay. I love talking to you. Okay. So what strategies have you found effective in fostering a sense of inclusion and support for your educators, especially those who work non-traditional work hours, such as before and after school or.
So, like I said before, frequent check-ins with my educators are what I find highly effective. We use like a group communication app. So if they're not obviously before and after school is not there during the day. Let's say there's a kid call in or there's a change in the schedule.
In this little group chat sometimes fosters a massive group chat into how we can maybe help this afternoon or who's good where, or maybe if we shuffle this kid here. Yeah. Having them be part of it because they work so little hours, having them have as much input as they can within reason.
I find it works great for my staff and fostering their inclusion, giving them the ability to plan their curriculum as they want to per their room. What resources do you provide? Any resource I can.
I mean, any resource we are given as educators, I will let my fellow educators know. So, you know, using our local, we have some places within our, you know, Essex County that give us the ability to use die cutting machines or lamination, giving them that those options that maybe they won't know of.
Again, fosters that inclusion for them and that classroom. Oh, no, I love that. Yeah, I know because it's easy to look quite literally forget the before and after school educators, but it sounds like you like including them in those messages and understanding like even team building and stuff.
Like, I know there's, there's been times that I'm like, oh yeah, they're like they've, my team message me and like, hey, so and so didn't show up today. I'm like, oh yeah, like they're about to message me. I forgot to tell you. So that's I started doing the same thing where I message in the morning. Like, okay, this is the messenger they have so that I don't forget to tell you that you feel like you're included and that you know that you're not just standing there wondering what the heck.
We do, we do breakfast on paydays. Payday comes and before and after school staff will go for breakfast in town. So I'll sometimes take my lunch at that time that earlier spot. Just to have that hour with them because truthfully, I would rather spend it with my employees than friends some days.
Yes. So yeah, that's what we do as a group. We try to get out outside of work to do things together. I would like to say I have a very strong team and we, many of us have been together for the last 10 years. Like they've been my staff for 10 years plus. So yeah, that's that in itself. Sorry to interrupt, but that in itself says a huge amount. Like that's, that's true.
That's you're right. Okay. You're right. I downplay a lot, but
No! 10 years in our field in the same place at the same supervisor. That's really good.
I call them the OGs. There's two girls. OGs. Whenever we have conversations, it's the OGs and then everybody else.
Amazing. And then how do you support continuous professional development with your team?
Providing them with whatever workshops or opportunities we have as educators. This year myself, I have done a lot of workshops and I'll give them knowledge of workshops, podcasts, any form of resource we can have as educators. I have given them.
And I find that that helps a lot because it eliminates the work that they have to do when their work time is so short already.
No, it's nice when you can do those things like if they join in together so that everyone in your center is doing that they don't feel like there's a disconnect, I guess, is what I would say.
Maybe you're so awesome.
All right. When you hear the term forgotten EC, what does it mean to you and how does it resonate with your own experiences in the field?
So the first thing I think of is you and I, because that's what we do. We are forgotten as educators. Before and after school staff provide the same care, the same level of care as any staff that works a full day, eight hour shift, and an infant through preschool setting, right?
I call my staff or I call us in general like behind the curtain people because we do literally the, I would say the brunt work.
A lot of things are geared for full day learning versus before and after school that be it workshops that be it, the jobs offered, even what you learn in school.
There's very small amounts of before and after school that educators are learning. And I think that needs to be addressed in order for maybe their idea of what will happen when they're done will change.
Absolutely. Oh, I'm glad you said that. It's so true. So on the side I teach for an EC program and the stuff I'm teaching, I'm like, also, this is how you connect it to before and after school because I feel like it's so, I'm like, no.
I concur with you. When I went to school, there was nothing on before and after school and the crucialness of it. But that just goes to show you exactly that we're forgotten.
It's true because in all, I can't speak for all programs, but a lot of programs, it's your mandatory to take a preschool placement, your mandatory to take a toddler placement, but it's suggested that you either take us before and after school or infancy or kindergarten.
They're not mandatory.
They're not mandatory. Yeah, and they should be.
Amazing. And why do you think ECs may feel forgotten within the educational system? And what steps do you believe you can help address the feeling? You're right. This is all ties in together.
Yeah, it just ties into what we were saying that the program, the EC program just doesn't list much about that. I said it gives a false sense to brand new out of college educators.
I said, even this holds true to professional development. One of the biggest complaints from my educators is there's not enough workshops geared for staff who work in that role.
I said that I think we should provide a term in school in the learning for before and after school and the benefits of working in a role as such.
We're no different than full day. We're still valued by our parents. Our kids value us, our principals that the schools we work inside value us, the teachers. There just needs to be more. There just needs to be more understanding of before and after.
More so now than 10 years ago because the care, the need for care is prevalent everywhere, everywhere throughout Ontario.
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so nice when someone just says what you're already thinking all the time. It's just like, ah. It is. It is. It absolutely is.
Because sometimes they don't know what they're talking about. It's true. It's also true when you find that educators that are just using early childhood education as a stepping stone, bless their soul. I hate that too.
But it's like, I get it. But come on. Oh, I want to be a teacher. Oh, I want to be a whatever. I just need the college degree. I'm like, yeah, but yeah. We are teachers.
We are. Oh yeah. I could rant about that all day.
Yeah. It's like how do you see the role of advocacy for before and after school educators evolving in the future? How do you see it? And what's your hope? I guess I would ask.
We all know that we all or we all hope that pay will increase. I think with pay, I think will come a higher level of want and care.
I would love to say I would love to help in any aspects with the gear of change for before and after school educators.
So, like I said myself this year, that was my goal was to network outside of where I am. And I can say wholeheartedly, I did that this year.
So, making those networking connections, I think will also help us as before and after school educators because like you and I right now, the connection we have and what we could probably produce together would be crazy.
Yeah. I mean, if everybody got on the same page, I think it would be advocacy enough itself saying, you know, seeing that. So, absolutely. And that's what this episode is going to do. It's you getting out and advocating and then people are going to be like, I'm so excited. I love their vibe.
I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Amazing. And then the last question, it really just plays into everything. So, I'm going to wrap it up with also anything else that you want to say.
So, what would you like people outside this field to understand about the challenges and dedication to ECs and before and after school programs? And is there anything else that we didn't talk about that you want to touch on?
Okay. One word that I want people to understand is that we're worthy. Me as educators are worthy.
That's a mic drop moment. Like that's a boom. That's it. That's all I got is we're worthy. We're worthy. That's it.
Oh, I love that so much, Amanda.
That's the end. I have nothing else to say. I have nothing else to add. I think everything, your questions were amazing. And yeah, I hope my answers were okay.
They were great. You did great. I'm literally leaving this with goosebumps because they were so good because you have that passion. You can't not teach people passion. Passion is self-built.
Oh, you said that so good. Oh my God, that was so good. That was so good placed in there. What a good. It's true. You can't. You can't.
And somebody said this to me last week as I was having a meeting in a conversation and someone said in the last year, I've seen your passion come back for what you love.
I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. It definitely all of a sudden in the last year and a half, I would say, yeah, for sure. The drive that I want better for all of us is just, yeah.
Oh, it has been such a pleasure, Amanda. Is there somewhere that people who are listening can reach out to you, join you, do you have an Instagram page you want to share or anything?
I mean, no, not really. Hopefully I'll be out there soon enough. I do have a little side business. Maybe I can plug that. Please do. It's called Sensory Sprouts. You can find us on Instagram.
Actually, we are if you go to Carla Ward's thing, are you going? You're going. Carla Ward's thing? Yes. The experience that you see experience.
That was. No. Yeah, we put where she had just posted about like the next like a sponsor. That was our little business at Sensory Sprouts.
So we're going to put little bags in like filler bags for sensory bins. So hopefully that the educators there can go back and use those within their centers. So that's super huge for me. So check us out.
Sensory Sprouts. What's your website or what's your Instagram? It's at Sensory Sprouts underscore. Deal. Oh my gosh. I'll plug it into our notes. That's so exciting. Oh my God.
That was a new thing to come out of this year too with all the things that are changing. Yeah, that was another little thing that started a girlfriend and I and it's just taken off. Oh, that's so exciting. Oh my God. Are you coming? Yep.
You're going to be there. Hence why I'm even more excited to touch you in the flesh. Oh my God. I can't even. Oh my God. You just made my whole life that much better. I'm telling Carla let's go out for dinner on the Friday night. I want everyone to go out for dinner if people want to meet.
Absolutely. That's amazing. Oh my God. I'm coming up early Friday. I took the day off work and I'm coming up early. Amazing. Well, thank you so much Amanda. Thank you for having me.
Thank you. Amazing listeners for your support. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Miss Jamie underscore R E C E. Give a star rating and leave a review. Have something you want to hear about in relation to before and after school programs or full day summer camp. DM me or comment. Again, thank you so much and happy learning.
Yeah.