1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,440 Welcome to the Forgotten ECE, the show where before and after school educators, summer 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:20,320 camp and PD staff and CYWs have a place where they are seen, heard and valued. 3 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:34,400 I'm your host, Jamie Wakeler, and I'm so excited you're here. 4 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,280 Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Forgotten ECE. 5 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,040 I'm your host, Jamie, and I have exciting news for you. 6 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:50,680 Today is going to be an amazing day because I brought a special guest along. 7 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,880 I brought with me my good friend, Rhee. 8 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,000 I should say good friend and old coworker, but my good friend, Rhee. 9 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,000 Everyone say hi, Rhee. 10 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,000 I know that you can hear them. 11 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,000 Hi, Rhee. 12 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,000 You can tell we- 13 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,000 That's the response when everybody says hi, Rhee. 14 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:12,000 You can tell we work with children and not adults. 15 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,960 Rhee, tell everyone how long you've been working in the field. 16 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:18,160 I've been working in the field about seven years. 17 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,160 Working with kids so much longer than that. 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:21,160 Since I was 16. 19 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:22,160 I'm 32 now. 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:23,160 32 this year, sorry. 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,160 That's because we're old. 22 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:25,160 Yeah, we're old. 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:26,160 It's time. 24 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,160 I remember when 30 was old. 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,160 I'm right. 26 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:36,120 And for those seven years, what program have you worked in? 27 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,120 I have always worked in a school age program. 28 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,920 I've also worked in toddler and physical programs, but I've always mainly been in the school 29 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,560 age, kindergarten and school age teacher. 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,480 Rhee kicks butt and is an amazing, amazing school age educator. 31 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:49,960 We worked in school age for a little bit together. 32 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:50,960 That was a long time ago. 33 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:51,960 It was a beautiful glimpse through life at one point. 34 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:52,960 Wonderful time. 35 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:53,960 And then COVID happened. 36 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:54,960 Literally. 37 00:01:54,960 --> 00:02:02,640 And then we're both now hating that we don't work together because it would be a really 38 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:03,640 good program. 39 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:04,640 It would be. 40 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,840 Anyways, I brought Rhee here. 41 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:13,840 I invited you here for a really important reason to tackle the ever so popular and extremely 42 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,720 needed to be talked about, especially now because our world is stupid for lack of a 43 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,240 better word, gender and gender expression. 44 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,120 Let's start with some definitions so that everyone listening knows what we're talking 45 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,120 about. 46 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,080 So there's the difference between gender, sex and sexuality. 47 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:36,040 So gender is what you believe you are in terms of boy, girl, either, both, any mix of whichever 48 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:37,040 one you want to be. 49 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,520 Sex is what you are physically born. 50 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,000 That is your physical body down to your genetics. 51 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,000 And that can differ. 52 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,480 It can be male, it can be female, it can be intersex. 53 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,520 There are huge variations in that. 54 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,040 And then there's sexuality, which is who you love. 55 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,080 And that's not necessarily what we're going to be talking about today. 56 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:57,280 We're going to stick with gender and sex because those are developmentally appropriate for 57 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:58,280 all of our ages. 58 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,760 That actually really leads into my next question. 59 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,240 What is developmentally appropriate for the children in all of our programs, not just 60 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:06,240 school age? 61 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,720 So gender development actually starts at two. 62 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:09,840 Two years old! 63 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,240 Or slightly before, obviously depending on the kid. 64 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,160 But it starts really, really young. 65 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,920 That's when they start to identify and kind of figure out what gender is. 66 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:21,200 So it is appropriate from age two up. 67 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,920 And even honestly, in infants, there are different ways that you can show gender and kind of 68 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:29,680 help them start to develop that because it's going to be earlier in some cases. 69 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,440 But yeah, everybody, everybody can talk about gender no matter who they are, no matter what 70 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:34,440 their developmental range. 71 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,600 Gender is appropriate. 72 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:42,560 And just to be super clear with anyone listening at this point, and if you disagree with what 73 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,840 I'm saying, you should probably shut the fuck itself down. 74 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,920 And also that I just want to clear the air that talking about gender and gender expression, 75 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,640 are you shoving that down kids' throats? 76 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:53,640 Absolutely not. 77 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,560 Kids are already talking about gender. 78 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,880 They have been, they will be. 79 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:04,800 What we're doing is making sure we're talking about all genders and all being inclusive 80 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,440 in the best possible way. 81 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,240 They are already talking about gender no matter what you do. 82 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,120 Sorry, I just want to make sure because there's some politicians out there and some like the 83 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,520 United States and Alberta who are sorely lacking in their information stuff. 84 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,400 I do some work, but I won't, I'm going to be professional. 85 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,640 This is not a P or this is a PG rated podcast. 86 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,640 I'm going to do my best. 87 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,080 And also watch out people. 88 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,280 Okay, so how did your own process start? 89 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:37,040 Many, many, many years ago, I remember sitting down and actually having a conversation with 90 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,960 my mom because we were watching the show I am Jazz on TV. 91 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,320 And if you don't know, Jazz is a transgender role and they televised. 92 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,880 I'm not necessarily a process because her process has started much younger age, which 93 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,520 is developmentally appropriate. 94 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,920 But having this conversation about what is a transgender person? 95 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:55,280 What does that mean? 96 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:58,640 And even my understandings then were when they were more than my mother's, but that's 97 00:04:58,640 --> 00:04:59,640 okay. 98 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,000 But they were different than what they are now. 99 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,840 And I've grown so much since then. 100 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:09,040 Yeah, it started, it started really with kind of that first conversation and expanded from 101 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,040 there. 102 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,160 And I've just kept learning since then and learned a whole lot. 103 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,480 And now I'm just trying to, to make that education out in the world. 104 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,760 That's so good that you're doing this. 105 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:23,400 Like when even like even myself, it wasn't, it wasn't until I met you, but I should, I 106 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,800 should let everyone know that we worked for a smaller center, a small community. 107 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,760 So things like this didn't really get talked about. 108 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,820 I grew up in a small community. 109 00:05:30,820 --> 00:05:33,280 So things like this never ever got talked about. 110 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:37,120 And then I went to a big community for our high school, which opened me up to a whole 111 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,080 world of things, which wasn't a bad thing. 112 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,360 A lot of topics that I had questions about when I was younger, but was afraid to ask 113 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,080 people because it wasn't talked about. 114 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,280 Because we grew up in small communities, like where, where do people think gender begins? 115 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:54,320 That's a difficult question because we're still learning a lot about gender. 116 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,160 We do obviously know, say gender development starts too. 117 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:02,360 But because we live in a gendered society that, especially in the last few years, last 118 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,480 couple of decades, gender has been pushed since before you're born. 119 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,520 Like you, when people start finding out they're pregnant, that's great. 120 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,160 Whatever it is, 18 to 21 weeks, they get that ultrasound that tells you what the sex is. 121 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,880 People go, let's have a gender reveal party. 122 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,560 And from then on, that's when gender is put on whatever child. 123 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:28,280 And that the expectations that go along with whatever gender they're told that they are, 124 00:06:28,280 --> 00:06:29,360 that's when it starts. 125 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:34,880 So be clear that 18 to 21 weeks, when they find out the sex, that is not their gender. 126 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,740 You won't know their gender until that person grows up and tells you what their gender is. 127 00:06:39,740 --> 00:06:43,180 Because no one can tell somebody else what their gender is. 128 00:06:43,180 --> 00:06:44,360 It comes from inside. 129 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:45,480 It's just your brain. 130 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,120 The gendered society that we live in is pushed so much onto the world. 131 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:56,180 It's hard to separate what is natural and what people do to please others. 132 00:06:56,180 --> 00:07:02,240 So if you're being told that you're a girl from 18 weeks of life, from before you are 133 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:08,360 born, your entire life and what that is implied to go along with. 134 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,840 So if you are being told what your gender is from before you're born and what the expectations 135 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:19,600 are, either explicit or implicit, the ones that we don't necessarily think as we're 136 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,960 not telling them that they have to wear skirts and have long hair. 137 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:31,560 But we are telling them that what's the one saying that girls mature faster than boys? 138 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,700 That's just a whole bottle of something to open. 139 00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:40,560 If you're telling people to expect less of boys and men in terms of controlling their 140 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,880 impulses, then they're going to have less. 141 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,080 What you tell somebody you expect of them, they're going to meet those expectations. 142 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,600 Those are lower high. 143 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,080 You're absolutely right. 144 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:55,200 As you're talking, I'm thinking about when I was pregnant with my first child, one thing 145 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,360 we didn't do was find out the sex of the baby. 146 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:02,280 And it was funny, I probably can't even count how many times I was asked as soon as people 147 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,400 thought that you're pregnant, are you having a boy or a girl? 148 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:05,400 Are you having a boy or a girl? 149 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:06,400 Like it matters. 150 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:12,840 Like in some weird frame, it matters if I'm having a boy or a girl. 151 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,400 They want to know because that's going to form their expectations of what that kid's 152 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:18,400 going to be. 153 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,800 Are you going to have one of those boisterous boys or are you going to have one of those 154 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:22,800 lovely little ladies? 155 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,640 Is it easier to be a boy, mom or a girl mom? 156 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:31,320 There's so much pressure put on gender and the expectations of gender. 157 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,200 Which leads me into my next question. 158 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Have you, what are your thoughts on gender expectations of the society and that transition 159 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:40,800 to kindergarten? 160 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:41,800 Ah, yes. 161 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,800 So I get this opportunity to work in all the programs. 162 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,760 So I get to see the toddlers move to preschools. 163 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,080 I get to see the preschoolers move on to kindergarten and I get to work with those kindergartens 164 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,440 in the school-agers. 165 00:08:53,440 --> 00:09:00,120 So I get to see what happens at that preschool and kindergarten age where, so before then, 166 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,020 they're learning what gender is. 167 00:09:03,020 --> 00:09:09,760 And at this age four, age five, when that kid now has a general understanding of what 168 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,880 their gender is, because that's usually when a lot of, if you look at reports that ask 169 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,800 a transgender person, when did you know you were transgender? 170 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,320 A lot of them will say four to five. 171 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:21,760 Five years old, I knew what I was. 172 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:27,680 And that's when I started hiding who I truly was to fit the expectations that were being 173 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:28,680 put on me. 174 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:29,680 From society? 175 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:30,680 Yeah. 176 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:31,680 From everybody around. 177 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:33,640 And in a lot of cases, it's not malicious. 178 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,080 It's just what everybody was growing up with. 179 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:42,960 And it's not as explicit as 1930s, no pants for you. 180 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,380 You can only have a job because the men are off at war. 181 00:09:46,380 --> 00:09:48,120 This is the small things. 182 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:54,920 This is women have longer hair and play with dolls and really paint their nails. 183 00:09:54,920 --> 00:10:01,040 I watched kids in preschool and even the beginning of kindergarten love to paint their nails. 184 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,040 I absolutely love it. 185 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:03,040 Everybody is just fun. 186 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:04,040 It's colorful. 187 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,040 It's great. 188 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,040 You get to wear it around. 189 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,040 It makes you feel great. 190 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,400 Kindergarten, they go into that classroom and somebody makes fun of them because they're 191 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,320 viewed as a boy and boys are supposed to paint their nails. 192 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:14,320 That's what society tells us. 193 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,000 Huge sarcasm in that one. 194 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,680 And they stop doing it because they realize that doing that thing outside of the downer 195 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:23,920 expectation of boy is going to get them made fun of. 196 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:29,880 And as much as we will try to give them the confidence to be who they want to be, even 197 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,680 the parents who mean well, the families that mean well, put that expectation out there. 198 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:39,760 And so they start to hide it and they start to conform to what society expects of them 199 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,680 instead of what they want to do. 200 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:46,840 That's so heartbreaking because I mean, something as simple as painting your nails, which seems 201 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,880 because I am, I do identify as a woman and that's my gender. 202 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,880 And something so simple as I can paint my nails. 203 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:56,260 Like, that's just silly. 204 00:10:56,260 --> 00:11:00,240 It's so silly to me that that would be anything to make fun of anyone over. 205 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:06,600 I mean, it's even mannerisms to crying in public, having more expression in your emotion. 206 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:12,040 You will start to see the people who are being told their voice from outside society, whether 207 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,200 that is true or not, whether they end up growing up to be a boy or not. 208 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,360 If people are telling you you're a boy, you shouldn't expect your emotions like that. 209 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:20,360 Now you've got to be boisterous. 210 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,080 You gotta be a little bit more physical. 211 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,440 People see that transition happen even in those really sweet, those really expressive 212 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,640 kids who in preschool are just the sweetest little things. 213 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,840 And oftentimes it's just a switch. 214 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,040 And sometimes they keep that and sometimes they don't. 215 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,080 And that's everybody's personal journey. 216 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,120 It's not one size fits all, but it is saying you have to fit into one or two boxes, one 217 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:43,640 of two boxes. 218 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,440 Which we know as a fact, or okay, Ria and I know as a fact. 219 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:49,800 Lots of people know as a fact. 220 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,480 And it's not just one or two boxes and it's not even about fitting inside the boxes. 221 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,280 You should be allowed to express yourself however you want to. 222 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,720 And you're not hurting anyone by wearing nail polish or by crying in public. 223 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:06,640 Actually you and I were having a conversation earlier about this and I did realize in the 224 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,240 conversation so that I make a habit personally. 225 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,960 One of my things I have to work on is I make a habit personally when I see quote unquote 226 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,600 boys or quote unquote girls doing something that might be of the opposite gender. 227 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:18,600 So like boys painting the nails. 228 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,240 I'll be like, wow, I really like your nails. 229 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,800 And kind of like calling them out. 230 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,200 So ideas to make it a safe place, but also what I'm doing might not be the best choice. 231 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:30,200 And you kind of touched on that. 232 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:31,200 Can you touch on that now? 233 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:32,200 Yeah. 234 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,240 So there's as educators, there's a lot of different things that we can do to help support 235 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,960 those different gender expressions and those different, not different, but everybody's 236 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:41,960 gender expressions. 237 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,920 One of the big things is you don't necessarily want to call this big attention to it because 238 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,840 that's just not freaks them out. 239 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,840 But sometimes when you're putting the spotlight, you just, it's still calling it out. 240 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,520 And so, you know, pointing at somebody and saying, that's a lovely dress you have on 241 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:57,520 Billy or whatever. 242 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:03,560 That, you know, Billy maybe doesn't want that type of call out, doesn't want that spotlight 243 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:04,680 put on them. 244 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:08,800 But just a simple look over and smile saying, hey, what you're doing is okay. 245 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,360 It's about being subtle, but still positive and still really finding those little ways 246 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,640 to say what you're doing is okay and what you're doing is like, you're totally okay 247 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:19,640 to do that. 248 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:24,760 One of the other ways is looking at what your own biases are and kind of calling yourself 249 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:25,760 out for them. 250 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:30,960 I love to say, Hey guys, let's go do this or Hey guys, let's go do that using, you know, 251 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:31,960 the masculine guys. 252 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,640 Because no matter what I do, the term guys is viewed as masculine by a lot of people, 253 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,720 but using a gender neutral term, Hey y'all, Hey everybody, Hey peoples, that's kind of 254 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,920 awkward as it is at first, uses that gender neutral term so that everybody is included 255 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:47,920 in that. 256 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,360 Not just girls, not just boys, but everybody. 257 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:56,800 Finding where your own biases are and where you are kind of pushing others towards that 258 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,800 typical gendered society. 259 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:04,120 If you want to, you know, redirect somebody from maybe doing something that you don't 260 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,880 necessarily want them to do, what are you redirecting them to? 261 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,560 Are you pushing them towards, are you pushing the little girls that you view as little girls 262 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:13,560 towards the dolls? 263 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:16,760 Are you okay with the girls roughhousing? 264 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,840 Are you okay with, you know, the boys chilling out, just doing something quiet? 265 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:21,960 No, I get it. 266 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:27,120 Like we have to get uncomfortable in our own biases because if you're comfortable with 267 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,480 what you're doing, if you're not, if you're not even willing to work at looking at your 268 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,760 internal biases, nothing's ever going to change. 269 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,280 Yeah, for sure. 270 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,360 It's definitely about looking at you first. 271 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,720 You can't do anything until you've looked at you first. 272 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,680 Because yeah, like I said, if you, like you said, if you don't think you're doing something 273 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,680 wrong, you should maybe look at it a little deeper. 274 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:53,000 But what about people though that say, that would argue to you that then say, but we have 275 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,320 no transgender kids here. 276 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,960 Are we all of our kids believe they're who they are and it matches with their, their 277 00:14:58,960 --> 00:14:59,960 sex? 278 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,480 So why is it, why should I be telling them about this? 279 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,400 Because it's not just about the transgender and gender nonconforming kids. 280 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,440 You know, if you look at, okay, so the example I used before, which was painting the nails 281 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,440 and, you know, somebody going to school with their nails painted and somebody bullying 282 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:14,440 them. 283 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:19,720 If that person who had bullied that kid with the nails painted knew that just because you 284 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,480 have a male thing, it doesn't mean you're a girl or, you know, that they wouldn't be 285 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,040 put in that bullying position, right? 286 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,640 It's for everybody to know that all gender expressions are okay. 287 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,920 That gender is a spectrum and it's not just one way or the other. 288 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,560 It's challenging the status quo that tells us it's just boy or girl. 289 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,000 No, wow. 290 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,000 You're absolutely right. 291 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,520 I mean, even through this conversation, it's eye opening. 292 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:53,000 It's eye opening because I mean, we're in that generation that quote unquote is, whoa, 293 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,000 I don't know if I'm using that right. 294 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,000 I have no idea. 295 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,000 Probably not in that generation. 296 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,560 Anyways, we're in a generation that we grew up kind of learning about this. 297 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,320 Like we're, I think we're definitely the generation that like the generation before us, the, what 298 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,000 is it, boomers, baby boomers? 299 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,800 No, we're, we're, we're, we're the generation before us. 300 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,920 First off, anyways, generation before us grew up with the struggle of sexuality being the 301 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:17,920 big thing. 302 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:18,920 Okay. 303 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,760 It's not just straight people. 304 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:21,760 It's gay people. 305 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:22,760 It's bi people. 306 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:23,840 It's, you know, it's lesbians. 307 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,800 It's the LGB part of LGBTQIA2+. 308 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:34,680 And now in this, this kind of next wave of the next wave of fighting, it's gender. 309 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:39,600 It's we've, we've flopped and you know, a lot of cases we're still fighting for rights 310 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,640 to be, to love who we want to love. 311 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:46,360 And now we're fighting to be who we want to be or who we were born to be. 312 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,360 Yeah. 313 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:48,920 And you know, we're millennials. 314 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,520 So the millennials fighting, we grew up knowing that it's okay to be gay. 315 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,960 It's okay to be straight, but now it's the, we're, we're fighting for, it's okay to be 316 00:16:58,960 --> 00:16:59,960 a boy, girl. 317 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:00,960 It's okay to be non-binary. 318 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,840 It's okay to be gender fluid. 319 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,560 It's okay to express your gender however you want. 320 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,680 It's okay to be whatever gender you are, no matter what you look like. 321 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,040 And it's fighting for the respect to be here and be seen. 322 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,240 And so that starts with the next generation of kids, the kids that are being born right 323 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,200 now, the gen alphas, that they're growing up in that world of gender inclusivity. 324 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,600 I think that's where I find it the hardest is that because we grew up knowing that it's 325 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:28,600 okay. 326 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,320 And I mean, side note, not all of us did. 327 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:38,480 So this is not a very, yeah, it's very, it's very you and I talking, but it blows my mind, 328 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:44,280 call me naive that we live in 2024 and this is still a thing. 329 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,280 But that's like in my head, that's like racism. 330 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,840 And that's like people being allowed to walk on the street without fearing for their life. 331 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,960 And that's about all the greater problems in the world and how we live in 2024. 332 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,440 And these are still problems when there's so much else out there. 333 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:03,680 But anyways, you are taking the steps in your program that you can to bring inclusivity 334 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,280 and to teach children about different people. 335 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:12,440 And I want you to tell me about your world world wall and how you kind of implement that. 336 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,480 Yeah, so that was one of the kind of the first things I started doing when I started looking 337 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,360 at just being a really more inclusive program. 338 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:25,440 And not just in terms of gender and sexuality, but race and religion and age and ability 339 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,920 and everything that kind of falls under inclusivity. 340 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:35,280 So my world world is just, it's a big post wall that I have and it's got as many different 341 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,840 types of people as I could possibly think of and fit on that board. 342 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,440 So I looked at, I looked at race and I've got a bunch of different people showing a 343 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,840 bunch of different skin tones because where I work in is very much dominated by the Caucasian 344 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,480 heterosexual gender normative people. 345 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,320 And if that's all you're seeing, you're thinking that that's the normal. 346 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,380 And actually it's funny because I had a conversation, I brought a new book in about specifically 347 00:18:59,380 --> 00:19:00,920 about race. 348 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,800 And we talked about very openly talks about race and racism. 349 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:12,640 And one of my kids at some point said to me, I have normal skin and they were Caucasian 350 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,680 and you kind of, you have to question that. 351 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,120 Think what is normal? 352 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:22,440 And whether you talk about race or gender, looking at what those kids see every day, 353 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:28,160 what they think the world is, it changes how you kind of approach the topic. 354 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:33,400 So anyways, my world wall is trying to expand their world because right now it is, is really 355 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,400 dominated by one particular person, type of person. 356 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,000 And so yes, it looks at, it's got a bunch of different religious symbols, words that 357 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,040 talk about religion. 358 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:48,360 It's also got words to talk about race, words to talk about body size, being negative or 359 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,640 positive, but it's, it's just factual. 360 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,720 And it's looking at, it's got different people of different gender types. 361 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,120 It's got words that describe different genders. 362 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:00,960 It's got people of different abilities. 363 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,680 It's got different types of people. 364 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:08,800 You know, it's got autism, it's got Down syndrome, it's got dwarfism, it's got people who are 365 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:15,040 missing limbs or are either born with it or the story isn't necessarily the point. 366 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,000 It's just people look different. 367 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,040 People are different and there's so many different types of people. 368 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,480 It's not just the ones you see going to school. 369 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,480 It's not just the ones you see around town. 370 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:32,320 Even in KW where I am, and that's not necessarily where I work, but it's not as varied in some 371 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:33,320 spots. 372 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,800 And that's, that's what I grew up in honestly. 373 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,280 I grew up in that white straight world. 374 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,760 Me too. 375 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:42,760 Yep. 376 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:50,240 I grew up in this really small, hick village and I had to go to the next town over to go 377 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,880 to school on a yellow bus with horse and buggies driving down the road. 378 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:02,600 And I can assure you, I was sheltered and didn't know anything about anything until 379 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,520 I ended up going to school in KW. 380 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,720 Like I don't think we had anyone come to school that was not white until I was in Greening. 381 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:15,280 So it was, it was pretty, one way, one view. 382 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,280 There was nothing else. 383 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,840 And as a kid who doesn't have access to, especially when we grew up, you don't always necessarily 384 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,760 have access to the internet like you do now, but. 385 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:24,760 Wow. 386 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,720 Way to throw shade at our age. 387 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:35,400 But if you don't actively work towards making, you know, whether it's your kid or the kids 388 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,160 that you work with, if you don't want to expand the world, that's all they're ever going to 389 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,160 see. 390 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,760 Well, you made a great point when we were chatting earlier about this, that if gender 391 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:52,120 wasn't as rigid, things like women's rights and men expressing their feelings would, it 392 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:55,200 wouldn't be so much of a struggle to fight for quality. 393 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:01,280 You know, if we're so focused on making people equal because, you know, there's, there's 394 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:06,160 just men versus women, you're missing so many people, but it's, it's been viewing gender 395 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:07,880 as a kaleidoscope. 396 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:08,880 It's complex. 397 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,640 It's so different than the two boxes. 398 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:17,000 And if you view it as a kaleidoscope, if you view it as this big spectrum, you're not going 399 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:24,720 to have the struggles you would in a binary system of a one versus the other system. 400 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,600 I recently watched, watched this video about people talking. 401 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,640 I think it's a Barbie initiative or Mattel initiative about girls talking about how when 402 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:38,360 they were little, they wanted to be engineers, that they wanted to be astronauts, or they 403 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:43,800 wanted to be a quote unquote man driven career or vice versa. 404 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:49,160 This particular video wasn't talking about, but men wanting to go into caregiver roles 405 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,440 or ECEs or teachers and how by a certain age, kind of what you were saying, all of a sudden 406 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,200 that changes and they stop wanting to be those things because the resources aren't there 407 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,640 and the people who believe in them aren't there. 408 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:07,640 It's shown that the women are actually nurses and teachers and caregivers where then men 409 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,520 can go off to work in factories or can be engineers or can be doctors and astronauts. 410 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:13,760 And that's just how the world is. 411 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,200 And it shouldn't be like that. 412 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,200 The STEM products, right? 413 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,200 And you do, you see that at the kindergarten age. 414 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:27,120 Like they really start to move into what society expects them based on their gender. 415 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:29,120 Like what do you want to be when you grow up? 416 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:30,120 A mom. 417 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:31,120 Which there's nothing wrong. 418 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:32,120 I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with that. 419 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:33,120 That there's anything wrong with being a mom. 420 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:34,120 No, you want to be a mom. 421 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:35,120 Be that. 422 00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:36,120 Be that. 423 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,960 There's a whole world out there that you can be a mom and be something else. 424 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,240 But we still live in this ideology, even though we know it's not financially right, but we 425 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,120 live in this ideology that girls can be moms and that's it. 426 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:48,120 Oh yeah. 427 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:53,440 And it's such a thing too of what you expect of somebody becomes the reality. 428 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,880 They're going to meet those expectations if you kind of give them that level. 429 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,880 If you don't expect much of somebody, you're really going to meet that expectation most 430 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,880 times anyways. 431 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:11,040 But if what we're expecting because of some of these genders is something, then oftentimes 432 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,920 they're going to meet that. 433 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,840 Whether you say that explicitly out loud, or if you say that implicitly in your little 434 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,320 everyday actions, it's going to happen. 435 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,080 And we see that every time. 436 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,240 Or I see it every time when we go from the beginning of kindergarten to the end of kindergarten 437 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,880 to school age and on. 438 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,840 Even now, like all of my kids that I have right now, they, well, I can't say all, but 439 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,520 not even the kids that I have right now, all of the kids that I've ever really had have 440 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,600 this expectation of, especially when they get to the older grades, twos, threes, I say 441 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:41,600 older grades, but- 442 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:42,600 Older grades for us. 443 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:43,600 Yeah, older grades for us. 444 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,480 They go into this, this person's got a girlfriend, this person's got a boyfriend. 445 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,080 They start to talk about that because that's when it generally really starts to talk about 446 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,080 it. 447 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,720 You'll always find that it's boy-girl pairings. 448 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,360 It's the heteronormative pairings that you see. 449 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:07,080 And even though my kids know a boy can marry a boy, a girl can marry a girl, or women, 450 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:14,160 they know that lesbians and gay people and bi people, they exist, but they're still, 451 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,840 they automatically pair. 452 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,680 They go to that heteronormative because that's what they see. 453 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,520 The LGBT community is spread out throughout the world. 454 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,320 We are everywhere. 455 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,280 And whether or not we see that is the difference. 456 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:27,280 You're absolutely right. 457 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,320 It's spread out against, it's spread out everywhere because it is. 458 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,320 It is. 459 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,320 Yeah. 460 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,040 We're not just one pocket of geographical community. 461 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,640 We are literally everywhere. 462 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:38,640 Yes. 463 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:45,040 But it's also important that kids feel like they belong in these places and that they're 464 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,640 not wrong for having feelings. 465 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,800 They're not wrong for feeling that they're not okay in their body. 466 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,480 They should be able to tell someone, but when it's so forced that, nope, you're a boy, nope, 467 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,240 you're a boy, that if they ever started feeling that maybe they're not, or maybe that they're 468 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,560 more sensitive, they think that there's something wrong. 469 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,400 And that is what we should be avoiding. 470 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:11,840 And that is a huge part of the goal of gender expression and gender nor versus gender norms 471 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,200 is that you should be able to express yourself how you want to express yourself. 472 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,200 You're not hurting anyone. 473 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,200 No one's hurting. 474 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,200 No one's bleeding. 475 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,200 No one's, you're not freaking out. 476 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,760 You're just, you're being yourself on that point because you made, you made a comment 477 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,760 and I'm trying to call you out. 478 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,480 I'm feeling wrong in your body. 479 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:33,480 A lot of people who identify as they get older and more able to express themselves as if 480 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,880 they're more comfortable with it. 481 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,640 It's not that they feel wrong in their body. 482 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,840 It's that they know how others view them as not right. 483 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,640 That they, their gender is not what others have been telling them. 484 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,160 And so a lot of people who grow up and are transgender or gender fluid, gender nonconforming, 485 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,840 they, you know, a lot of people you hear about people like going on hormones and transitioning, 486 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,360 that's a personal choice. 487 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:00,520 But a lot of times people don't choose to do that. 488 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,900 They're okay with how their body is. 489 00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:07,520 It's how they, how others view them and how they view themselves that they would like 490 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,360 to change because it's not what they want. 491 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:16,440 And one of the big arguments that we get or we hear a lot is, you know, they're, the kids 492 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,200 are too young or it's not appropriate for them. 493 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,720 Or like even one of the arguments against children transitioning is that it's irreversible 494 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,880 or they're doing harm to their body or what if they want to change it. 495 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:34,640 And putting aside the rates that de-transition rates are so, so small. 496 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:40,800 When you are looking at kids in child development, what you are looking at in transition for 497 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,280 a young kid is not medical transitions. 498 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:44,840 It is social transitions. 499 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,560 It is changing how others see them. 500 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,840 And that's really what as an educator, you would only be looking at. 501 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,120 That's if you had a child who is transgender, you would be looking with them to help transition 502 00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:00,120 your social. 503 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,600 You're not helping the kid figure out who they are, which don't get me wrong. 504 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:05,600 Great, great idea. 505 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,320 You can help in those ways, but it's helping society accept that hidden for who they want 506 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,040 to be shown as. 507 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:20,320 It's really just helping society move from this is how people have to be to that's the 508 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,480 person that they are and we can accept that. 509 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,120 And as an educator, we're not just here for the transgender and gender-fluid kids. 510 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:32,680 We are here for everybody else, all those people who grow up and meet those expectations 511 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,360 to also know that the world is different and the world is huge. 512 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,480 The gender is a big spectrum. 513 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:39,480 It's complex. 514 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,160 It's like classical, like I said. 515 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,840 And it's okay. 516 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:43,840 People can do that. 517 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,240 People can be that and you don't have to fight them against it. 518 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,880 Which leads me actually to my next question. 519 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,800 And I do want to thank you for pointing that out because I did not know that. 520 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:54,960 So thank you. 521 00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:01,240 But have you personally have had any pushback from implementing, I don't know, like anything 522 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,760 into the classroom or your word wall or talking about gender expression or gender in your 523 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:07,760 programs? 524 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,240 Oh, I definitely have. 525 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,800 I think I, in the time that we are, I always will. 526 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:13,800 And that's a struggle that I always have. 527 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,880 But I'm going to keep pushing back because maybe one day, you know, that gen alpha that's 528 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,480 growing up won't have that pushback. 529 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,560 And I understand parents want the best for their kids. 530 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,560 They always do. 531 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:26,560 We hope. 532 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,560 We hope. 533 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:28,560 We always hope. 534 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:37,520 And the issue, and I say issue with a certain sense of sarcasm because gender isn't necessarily 535 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,960 an issue until somebody makes it an issue. 536 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:47,560 I think LGBTQ plus has been made politicized because people, some people think that they 537 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,680 have the right to tell others how to live and they make it. 538 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,080 A lot of their arguments are surrounded by, well, it's not good for the kids. 539 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:02,040 But science and research is now telling us, and it has told us for a very long time actually, 540 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:07,000 that it's better for the kids to explore their gender, ways to express themselves. 541 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,720 One of the four foundations got belonging, well-being, expression, and engagement. 542 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,560 We're so good at our job. 543 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,160 ADHD is both feminist. 544 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,800 That really is what it is. 545 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:21,800 I should pre-cursor this episode. 546 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:29,400 Just so you know, both we and I have ADHD, so follow us. 547 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,400 So yeah, okay. 548 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:36,040 So the four foundations of childcare, well-being, engagement, expression, and of course now I've 549 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,040 forgotten the fourth one. 550 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,040 Well-being, behavior, not behavior. 551 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,040 Belonging. 552 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,040 There we go. 553 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,040 Where's my book? 554 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,040 My book's over there somewhere. 555 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,040 It's fine. 556 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,040 Okay. 557 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,040 All right. 558 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,040 Let's try this again. 559 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,040 I love us. 560 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,040 I know. 561 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,040 We've got this. 562 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,040 We totally have this. 563 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,040 Okay. 564 00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:01,880 So the four foundations of childcare of ECEs, belonging, well-being, engagement, and expression. 565 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:08,240 We were supposed to be able to help children express themselves in all facets of themselves. 566 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,080 And Henry really wonders what the world would be if it wasn't so gendered or binary in the 567 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,360 gender that we have, if we had the spectrum. 568 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,520 What would expression look like for all these kids? 569 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,000 Because I really do wonder. 570 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,280 It's just, that's obviously a question I'm not going to have answered, especially in 571 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,880 my lifetime, maybe one day in the future. 572 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,000 But right now we're still very much working the binary. 573 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,800 And it's also looking not just at the four foundations, but the code of ethics and the 574 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,720 government itself and their laws of. 575 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:35,720 Yeah. 576 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,720 Oh yeah. 577 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,240 So at least in my childcare center, we are nonprofit. 578 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,040 We are a public organization. 579 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,600 We are not religiously affiliated. 580 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,280 We're not politically affiliated. 581 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,280 We are public. 582 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,360 We are supposed to be for everybody. 583 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:53,320 And that includes, from their inclusivity, the right not to be discriminated based on 584 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:54,320 your gender. 585 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,160 But it also means that, especially in our code of ethics, we say we're supposed to be 586 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:04,840 an inclusive community and it's working towards really meaning that, not just saying it, which 587 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,240 a lot of centers do. 588 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,040 I don't, can't tell you how many. 589 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,600 I actually spent some time looking at as many childcare center websites as I possibly could 590 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:19,480 to see if any of them actively supported the LGBTQ plus community. 591 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:24,360 I found one in all of Ontario that I could very easily, and I didn't spend long on each 592 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:25,360 website. 593 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:26,360 I will fully say that. 594 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,480 I wasn't looking in depth at them. 595 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,600 I was going to just go see if I'm a potential parent and I want to look at these places 596 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,600 if maybe I'm a queer parent or maybe I'm raising a gender neutral child. 597 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,280 And I want to see quickly at a glance who is going to be most receptive. 598 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,680 I found one that had actually really nice little, it had a little pride flag. 599 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,680 It had a little trans flag right beside it. 600 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,680 And I said, hey, these are what our values are. 601 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,840 And everywhere else said we're an inclusive community. 602 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,680 They didn't show it. 603 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,720 And if you ask anybody in the LGBTQ community, I'm not speaking for everybody, but if you 604 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:05,320 ask a lot of people in the LGBTQ plus community, and if you ask, even if you ask a person of 605 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:12,000 color and they're looking at a small community, if you see that all you're looking at is straight 606 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,120 white, heteronormative kids, you're not going to feel very included. 607 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:20,680 And yeah, you might not get chased out of there with rocks and pitchfork or whatever, 608 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,440 but you still want to be able to feel like you belong. 609 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,280 And part of our job as an educator is to make people feel like they belong, make people 610 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,280 feel welcome to be expressive of who they are. 611 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,400 In Canada, we have the laws, you're not allowed to discriminate based on gender, based on 612 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,400 sex, based on ability, all that jazz. 613 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,480 So as a public facility, we should really be going into that. 614 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,760 And my experience has been unless there is somebody actively working towards that, and 615 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,920 it's usually one person, one or two people, it's not going to happen. 616 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,280 They're just going to go with what their default is, which is often straight white, heteronormative 617 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,520 people or gender-normative people. 618 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:58,960 It's really that surface level. 619 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,960 So I look at it on my website because I say that I have, I value inclusivity or diversity. 620 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:09,960 And that goes back to the early days of Eckers and Sackers and whatever that range scale 621 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,120 is where as long as you have pictures of diverse families on the board, then you can check 622 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,120 that box off. 623 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,160 But again, that's not teaching anyone anything. 624 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,280 That's not making your environment welcome. 625 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,320 That's surface level showing nothing. 626 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,800 That you can't even put an effort in to these aspects of diversity and inclusivity. 627 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,280 The funny thing is actually now that I'm thinking about it is a lot of times when people, when 628 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:37,760 people who haven't had struggles, and I say that lately, people who haven't experienced 629 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,640 what it is to be discriminated against, when they think inclusivity, they just think, well, 630 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,840 I'm not going to attack that person or, you know, I've got this policy that says we won't 631 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:55,240 stand for anybody being, you know, abusive or for any abuse towards people of the LGBT 632 00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:58,840 class community or, you know, we won't stand for racism. 633 00:34:58,840 --> 00:34:59,840 That's great. 634 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:00,840 Don't get me wrong. 635 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:01,840 I'm not trying to say that's not good. 636 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,040 Those policies are always great to have. 637 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,720 But when we say inclusive, we mean, you know, it's not just that we're welcome at the table. 638 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:10,440 It's that table set for us. 639 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,440 Don't look at me like that. 640 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,440 Sorry. 641 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,440 That was really good. 642 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:15,440 That was really good. 643 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,440 I changed my face. 644 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:19,440 I'm sorry. 645 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:20,440 I just can't see it. 646 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,200 But anyways, yeah, so it's, yeah, it's not just that we're welcome at the table. 647 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,960 It's that we're not going to get thrown away from the table. 648 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,560 It's that the table is there for us to, the table is set for us. 649 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:35,280 The table is built for us and that we have, and we feel comfortable being who we are at 650 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,280 that table. 651 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:41,600 And so working in Child Care Center, working in the school age program, it's, for me, it 652 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,520 feels a little defeated because oftentimes at that point in the school age program, you're 653 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,760 working against stuff that's already put in place. 654 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,840 You're working against changing what that kid already has built and views as their society, 655 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,920 which is oftentimes binary, and especially when it comes to gender. 656 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:03,200 You are, you know, I feel like my job is not tearing down, but like trying to help rebuild 657 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,080 this idea that they already have. 658 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,800 Where it kind of gets a little frustrated when I see, you know, even infant programs, 659 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:16,240 even toddler preschool programs that aren't helping those kids express themselves fully, 660 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,800 that aren't looking at the biases they have. 661 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,640 And by not looking at those biases, we're putting our own biases in. 662 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,960 Yeah, it can get pretty frustrating as a school-age educator looking at that and feeling like you're 663 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,240 working a losing battle because by the time they get to us, they already have those, they're 664 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:33,240 already hiding. 665 00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:37,300 They already have those, have that binary system in mind. 666 00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:41,520 And now it's breaking down the wall that they're hiding behind before you can even get to the 667 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,240 groundwork of letting them know they should be accepted for who they are. 668 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:50,520 These gender expressions don't, they're not an end all. 669 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,080 Now, yeah, that was deep. 670 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,080 It's a really deep conversation. 671 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:01,840 And I mean, podcasts is the only thing I've taken so far, but I would like to ask you 672 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,520 if educators are listening to this that have questions or that want to do more research, 673 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:08,520 can they reach out to you? 674 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:09,520 Oh, for sure. 675 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:10,520 Definitely. 676 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,600 I'm always open to questions, especially when they come from a good place. 677 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,600 Don't get me wrong, I have had some very interesting questions asked me in the past and I still 678 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,880 appreciate even those interesting questions as long as they come from a place of actually 679 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,840 wanting to learn and not just, even ignorance. 680 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,280 I will take a place of ignorance. 681 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:25,760 I won't take any malicious questions. 682 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:26,760 Gotcha. 683 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:27,840 That's my, that's my only thing. 684 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,480 Please don't come at me. 685 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,160 If you're not willing to actually learn, but if some part of you wants to learn, go for 686 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:35,160 it. 687 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,520 And Rhi, you also brought some resources along that have guided you on your, your journey 688 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:41,520 of learning. 689 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:42,520 Yeah. 690 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,640 Actually, one of the big ones that I had was called Supporting Gender Diversity in Early 691 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,120 Childhood Classrooms, Practical Guide. 692 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:54,880 It has a bunch of different authors, but I'm sure we can post it somewhere with all of 693 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:55,880 them. 694 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,880 I'll figure that out. 695 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:57,880 And they actually, yeah, your job. 696 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:04,600 They actually have a video available on YouTube that talks a little bit about the book and 697 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:05,960 how to actually do this as an educator. 698 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,960 Cause it's a much more in depth thing than I could ever talk about. 699 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,160 And they've obviously done a ton of research and because there is a lot of research around 700 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,160 there. 701 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,040 But then there's also like, if you're looking at gender in general, there's a, an interactive 702 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,400 guide to gender binary by Robin Ryle. 703 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,880 And that's just looking at, it's basically, it's choose your own adventure book for gender 704 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,900 and it just has a bunch of different stories and it's, it's a, you're looking at gender. 705 00:38:29,900 --> 00:38:32,520 Even if you think you have the same gender people have been telling you, it's always 706 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:33,520 good to look at your gender. 707 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,840 Cause you may find, you may discover something about yourself, but you could also get a better 708 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,040 understanding of other people and their, their kind of connection to their own gender. 709 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,680 And then the last one I have is a Gender Identity, Sexuality and Autism Voices from Across Spectrum 710 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:51,680 is just a collection of stories because oftentimes people who are neurodivergent have a higher 711 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:59,280 rate of gender difference, the even like ADHD and autism both have a higher crossover. 712 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:06,000 Yeah, it's a, there's more people on the gender spectrum and on the autism spectrum than you 713 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,000 would imagine. 714 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,840 But yeah, those are all, those are all really good books to have. 715 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,480 There's a ton of online resources. 716 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,520 Just, I would just say, make sure that when you look on online resources, you find somebody 717 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,440 who is accredited. 718 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,280 So I would always just always question everything on the internet, always, just always. 719 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:28,000 Look for proof that it's coming from a good source and not just someone writing a blog 720 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,000 post. 721 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,000 Yeah. 722 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,080 Unless the someone that's writing a blog post is someone who knows stuff. 723 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,360 Yeah, I'm doing it just as good a job as you have explained this, but don't look at the 724 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:37,360 bad people. 725 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:44,360 Find, oh, there's a source, there is something, I need to remember it later. 726 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,480 I think I have an option of doing show notes. 727 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,920 So I'll just add it in if you think about it. 728 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:49,920 Sounds good. 729 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,000 Always question everything on the internet. 730 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:53,000 That's the goal. 731 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,000 Really, really. 732 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,040 I mean, you should never believe anything that you just read without finding facts for 733 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,040 it. 734 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,920 Also, hint, hint, this could be used for your CPL. 735 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,160 Any kind of research like this is literally, this is literally part of your CPL. 736 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,920 If you're living in Ontario and have to. 737 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,880 Anyways, Reed, do you have any last things that you'd like to say that we didn't get 738 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,880 to touch on or any last comments? 739 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,280 Is it a good question? 740 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,320 You're like lots, but how much time do we have? 741 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:24,880 Honestly, I think one of my biggest things is as an educator, as a person, look at your 742 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,960 gender, question your gender. 743 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,560 Even if you end up at the same place you are now, it's a very interesting journey to go 744 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:31,560 on. 745 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,840 And I think it helps with the empathy of connecting with other people. 746 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,960 And whether that person is a five year old kid who's learning to hide who they are, or 747 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,800 whether that person is a straight white man in his forties. 748 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,440 It's just, it helps with empathy to understand where somebody's coming from. 749 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,840 Reed, this is so informative and so much fun. 750 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,680 It's always fun talking to you though. 751 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,520 It's very disaster sometimes. 752 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,280 Don't ask us how long it took us to get ready for this. 753 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,720 But also you're welcome. 754 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,760 Thank you so much for joining me on The Forgotten EC. 755 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,120 I'm sure you'll be back again to talk about lots of other things, but this was super exciting 756 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,560 that you were my first real interview on the podcast. 757 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,520 I'm not so happy to be here. 758 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,520 We love to talk about this stuff. 759 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:19,520 Amazing. 760 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:25,560 Ree's email address and some information on the books that she shared will be in the show 761 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:26,560 notes. 762 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,240 If you, as always, if you have any questions, concerns, comments, you feel free to reach 763 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:31,240 out to me. 764 00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:35,840 And I know at the beginning of the podcast I said if you're uncomfortable talking about 765 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,800 this stuff, you can stop here. 766 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:43,240 Honestly, if you're going to come at me because I'm talking about this stuff in a place that's 767 00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:45,760 not in a learning way, just save it. 768 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:53,480 I'm open also to talking deeply about beliefs or about what it is you're looking at, but 769 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,080 it needs to come from a spot that's not being a jerk. 770 00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,080 Being open. 771 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,080 Open mindedness. 772 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,160 If you're open to changing your minds, let's talk. 773 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:04,160 Exactly. 774 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,160 Exactly. 775 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:06,160 That makes sense. 776 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,920 Anyways, this has been a little bit longer than normal, so there's no time for a question 777 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,680 time, but please send those questions. 778 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,960 Please join me in the next two weeks for the next episode. 779 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:20,760 And we're actually recording this on Good Friday, so happy Easter if you celebrate that. 780 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,600 Happy long weekend if you have a long weekend. 781 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,160 Oh, Eid is coming up. 782 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:25,160 Happy Eid and it's Ramadan. 783 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,160 Happy Ramadan. 784 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,160 Have a fab, fabulous day. 785 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,160 Bye. 786 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,160 Thank you. 787 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:32,960 Amazing listeners for your support. 788 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,560 Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at MissJamieUndersol.com. 789 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:45,680 Give a star rating and leave a review. 790 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,600 Have something you want to hear about in relation to before and after school programs or full 791 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:50,600 day summer camp. 792 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,000 DM me or comment. 793 00:42:52,000 --> 00:43:08,040 Again, thank you so much and happy learning.