Hello everyone and welcome back to the Hostel Road Trip Podcast.
The podcast that literally takes its show on the road.
Listen in as James Black and Bobby Dyer, owners of International Travelers House Hostels,
travel around the country to learn about these great locations and incredible people
that come together to provide a unique and exciting experience for travelers from all over the world.
Welcome back to Hostel Road Trip Season 3, final episode.
We are in the presence of what I would call a Jedi Knight of the Hostel Industry, Tom Dennard.
Dinnered, sorry, dinnered at the Hostel in the Forest outside of Brunswick, Georgia.
And we are so happy to be here. We had the opportunity to stay here last night.
The sounds of the rain and the sounds of the forest, it was just beautiful.
But we want to talk a bit about your personal journey as it is an inspiration to so many of us,
including my business partner Robert Dyer. This was the first hostel he ever stayed at.
And Vicki from the Not So Hostel who runs the American Hostel Conference, her inspiration as well.
So I've been waiting to come here for years and I have to say it lives up to everything that people tell you about it.
Just really a special and magical place.
But Tom, tell us a bit about how in the 1970s you got yourself into this hostile business.
It's funny that you call it hostile business.
Right, that's even the sound right here.
Okay, graduating from college and the thing to do was to throw on your backpack and take a trip to Europe.
And in doing that, you bought a U-Rail pass which put you on a train.
You could go anywhere you wanted to go in Europe, get on and off, you know.
And everybody would buy this book, it was called Fromer's Book, Europe on $5 a day.
This was in the 70s. You could actually do it.
But anyway, so on the train and talking with people my age, they were all staying in hostels.
I'd never heard of a hostel so I didn't know what it was.
But anyway, when I started staying in hostels, I was totally enamored with the hostel idea
and with young people getting together and you could learn some many really good travel stories from them,
places they had been that didn't appear in my $5 a day book.
So anyway, when I came home, I guess I was not only enthused but obsessed with the idea to have my own hostel.
That's great.
So I had one huge impediment, however. I didn't have any money.
So that really presented a problem.
I had the gigantic idea but no money to back it up.
So I started driving all around looking for a place to put this hostel.
And I was driving down Highway 82 out here and there was a big sign on property, 75 acres for sale.
And I thought, oh man, I love that. I love the idea of the forest there and we can have trails and all.
But I can't even afford one acre, much less 75.
But I knew the guy who was the realtor who was selling it.
And when I called him, he said, yes, absolutely.
You can buy this because this guy will finance it 100 percent.
Oh, great.
And he will take annual payments.
So you don't have to pay any money down.
And then in a year when you have to make your first annual payment, you can just sell off some property because you don't need that much.
I said, yeah, I like that idea.
So before I knew it, I had 75 acres and hadn't put any money.
Things are moving.
Yeah, exactly.
So, OK, where am I going to put my hostel on this 75 acres?
So literally, this was a Georgia swamp.
You know, a lot of ponds and water and palmettas, a lot of oak trees, pine trees, cypress trees.
And anyway, scouring the whole 75 acres, I could not find a place that was suitable for the home base.
Yeah. Yeah.
And so one day I was walking in the back of the property and as I was walking along the property line, I looked over and saw a spot that seemed sort of enchanting.
It had a lot of oak trees around with moss hanging down from the oak trees.
And it just looked like, hmm, I wonder what that is.
So I went over and sat down by this oak tree and I meditated.
And when I did, it was like, absolutely.
I don't know what this place is, but it's very spiritual.
It is a place where this hostel needs to be, but it was not on my 75 acres.
So I had to go find out who owned this magical place.
Yeah. So I went to the tax office and found this old crusty old farmer down the road.
And so I was going to have to go and convince him to sell me his 15 acres.
And this is Mr. Right? Mr.
Yeah. That was his name. His street name was Mr.
And so I went there and my hair was down to my shoulders and he did not like long haired hippies.
But anyway, we got along pretty well.
And long and short is he agreed to do the same thing.
He would allow me to buy his 15 acres, make annual payments and no money down.
So I had 90 acres.
You had 90.
And hadn't paid anything down.
This is some dealing and reeling.
So the next thing is, of course, I know nothing about architecture.
So but I do have a neighbor who is an architect.
And when he heard about what I was doing, he brought over pictures of a geodesic dome and showed it to me.
And like I was saying earlier, but Minster Fuller had actually spoken to an audience on St.
Simon's where I live and I went to hear him and and when I, you know,
looking at the pictures of of geodesic domes, I knew immediately that's what it has to be because it just looks like it grew up out of the ground like a mushroom.
Yes. Yes. So anyway, I did have to go to the bank then.
Yeah. First stop to the bank.
And get some money to buy these domes. But we found a company up in New Jersey and that sold geodesic domes.
And they had two demonstration domes that they had erected on the property.
So when I was telling them what I wanted to do with the hostel, they were really enthused about that.
And they said they would disassemble those domes and bring them down here and send somebody who would instruct us about how to put them up.
That's awesome. Yeah, I know.
So we this weekend was the last is the last week of January 2019. Right.
Yes. This guy came down with these parts of the dome on the last weekend of January of 1975.
Look at that. So this weekend was the 44th anniversary of us erecting the dome.
That's awesome.
So anyway, we had one dome that was bigger than the other. One was 30 feet in diameter.
The other one. Wait a minute. One was 39 feet in diameter and the other one was 30 feet in diameter.
And so we got a bunch of my friends. We got some beers and had a lot of food and music, of course.
And it was like the old fashioned barn raising. Everybody's singing and laughing and having a good time.
And this guy's telling us how to put these things up.
So anyway, we put the big dome up in one day in eight hours.
And then the second day, we put the little dome up in four hours.
So all of a sudden I had two geodesic domes.
And anyway, so we had taken the big dome and divided it into little rooms so that you could have little private rooms around the perimeter.
But the interior would be open and we'd have bunk beds there for groups.
So anyway, we had the kitchen, the office. We had a toilet facility out back and the bedrooms.
But how do you get people to come to your hospital?
And what is this hospital organization back then you joined?
It was called the American Youth Hostel Association.
It doesn't exist anymore. OK.
And so but it was a year or two before they would put you in print.
They would put us in. And the reason is the closest hostel to this was Washington, D.C.
Oh, you're my love.
So no hostels in the South.
First hostel south of the Mason Dixon Line.
Exactly.
Good for you. So anyway, the people we didn't have anybody to come to my hostel.
It's like a friend of mine said you gave a hostel and no one came.
If you build it, they will not come.
But it was discouraging, to say the least.
So my means of marketing, of course, this is long before Internet computers and so forth.
So my means of marketing was to get in my pickup truck and go out on Highway 17,
which was the main highway from New York to Miami.
R95 had not been built at that time.
And so I was driving up and down looking for a cyclist.
And if I saw a cyclist, I would pull up in front of him and say, look, hey,
I've got a hostel. I want you to go to this house.
You don't even have to pay.
I'll put your bike in the back of my pickup and take you out.
That's beautiful. That's direct marketing.
If I'm ever seen it, I pull them off.
So anyway, our first hosteler was from Brunswick, Maine, and he was cycling to Key West.
And so I had grabbed him, nabbed him, whatever, and brought him out here.
And we have a picture of him.
I saw it in the book. That's so cool that you snapped that shot of him.
Yeah.
So anyway, for the first few years, you'd go for days and days and days without any guests.
But then eventually, with the American Youth Hostel Guidebook,
a lot of people came, but they were all, I don't mean but, and they were from other countries.
And so we had a lot of Europeans, a lot of Australians, South Americans.
And if you look at our picture board, which has a picture of every manager from the beginning till now,
all of the first ones for about the first 15 years were from other countries.
And that was a good time at the hostel because we'd have dinner at night,
and I'd sit around talking to all of these people who were touring America for the first time
and listening to all of their complaints about America, all of which were true, of course.
Yes.
But anyway, I loved that time.
And then in the 90s, the Americans learned about it.
Yes.
And that was good and bad.
The good was they came in droves.
So the money situation seemed to get better.
Correct itself, yes.
But they came for the reason of looking for a good place back in the woods
where nobody could see them and they could party and have a blast, you know.
Yes.
And so that went on for a while.
And while we were making money and able to pay this mortgage off,
I realized, you know, that time that I came out here and sat down by that oak tree,
this is a spiritual place, you know.
If you want to party, we got Daytona Beach, Myrtle Beach, you know.
There are plenty of places to party.
And while I'm not against partying, I just felt like this place needs to be different.
It's not supposed to be the identity of it.
Yeah, so toward the latter part of the 90s, we changed things around
and made this place 501C3 and as an educational place to teach the guests
about the environment and sustainability, conservative conservation.
Yeah.
And so we have evolved from there to where we are now, where, of course,
we get our problem definitely is not advertising.
I mean, we have over 17,000 people on Facebook.
Wow.
Yeah.
So we get a lot of people here.
But in my opinion, they're coming for the reason that I want them to come here.
Back on course.
Yes.
So the thing I hear, which to me is full payback,
is when people will come up and tell me, you know, this place has changed my life.
And when I hear that, I know I've done something right.
Yeah, yeah.
But let me say this is if you ever want to do anything different like I did,
number one, you have to be crazy.
A little crazy.
You're going to be a little crazy.
Every single person would do what I did.
And the other thing is every person, all my friends, my family,
you are the craziest.
That's the biggest fool thing I've ever heard of.
You know what?
You will never make a penny out of that.
And you know what?
They were right.
Yeah, yeah.
I have never made a penny.
OK.
You put it all right back into it.
And I think of anything that I could have done with my life that would have been more rewarding.
Yes.
Because the people who come here are just really good people.
They're people that I want to be my friends forever.
Yeah.
And we just have very good managers, good staff, and just a good atmosphere.
Great energy.
Well, it's like every person who comes here gets a big hug.
Yes.
You don't get that at Holiday Inn.
No, no, no.
You'd get a hashtag me too problem.
So some people, they're a little bit skittish about being hugged.
But it's a welcoming place.
And we have a sign out in the parking lot that says, welcome home.
Yeah.
And it does feel like that.
It does.
It really does.
It's a very peaceful place.
Yeah.
So I'm very, very happy about what we've done.
And the evolution of it.
Yes, absolutely.
And evolution means three steps forward, two steps backwards.
Yes, yes.
And that's the way it works.
But I mean, you know, we've had our problems here and there.
But overall, in 44 years, we definitely have evolved to where I want this place, what I want this place to be.
And I think that's really interesting how you talk about how even in our short time of being open for six years at ITH,
we experienced a bit of the same thing where we started because we felt it was spreading peace through knowledge of culture and this beautiful thing.
And then sometimes the party can hijack that mission and movement.
And it can become blurred.
And then you can find out that, you know, your baby is different than what you thought it was going to grow up as.
And I think it's important to know that you can always get that back on track.
If you step in, it's never too late.
And you can get it back on the right course.
And you clearly have.
Yeah.
We hope you're enjoying this episode of the Hostile Road Trip podcast.
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And now we bring you back to your regularly scheduled program.
Now, from the time of the original two structures, how many other structures have we built out over the years?
Well, we built tree houses and our guests mainly stay in tree houses.
Where did you stay?
We were in a tree house, weren't we?
Do you know the name of it?
The Peacock Mustard.
Oh, you were in Peacock?
Yeah.
Sure.
We have, of course, all the tree houses have names and they're all different.
But people love staying in tree houses.
Yeah, you feel like a kid again.
It brings back your old boyhood and girlhood.
Yeah, it was so much fun.
Yeah, so yeah, that's very popular.
And we've built, we have eight, I think, no, we've got a new one, nine, I think, tree houses.
And then our staff, we have six cabins for them to stay and the manager.
And but we try, it's very difficult to for us to to get off of electricity.
I really wish we could.
But we don't have any sunlight back here because we've got all trees and all forest.
And all these trees are my friends.
Yeah, you don't want to lose that.
I do not want to kill my friends.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So so we do have electricity.
I'd love to be off the grid.
We're not.
And but but basically we try to teach environmentalism.
And the way we do that really is by the way we operate this place because, you know, everything's recycled.
Of course, we have composting toilets, we compost all food scraps, everything.
And incidentally, the shower back in the staff village is heated by decaying compost because it creates so much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so, I mean, we're doing a lot of things that that we can teach our guests by them seeing what we do.
Yeah. And somehow that is a better teacher than lecturing.
Very much.
Oh, I would agree.
We have organic gardens.
Yeah.
For them to see it and then to be able to practice.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I agree with that completely.
Now, what about the swimming hole?
And then there's also a fishing pond, right?
Well, yes.
And then there was a big mouth bass that was thrown in from one to the other back in the day.
I like that story.
So you dug out your own pond and swimming hole, right?
We did. And that was that's the pond directly in front of the dome.
And then a couple of years later, we had a swimming pool that we dug and cemented it in and had a pool.
And I don't know if you noticed when you got here last night, it was a lighted area right before you get to the domes.
Yeah.
The swimming pool was there.
And if you notice, there's a pole with a rope swing.
And that's where we used to swing into the pool.
Nice.
But we have a lake back.
OK.
And everybody who comes here loves the lake and they all want to swim in the lake.
And they say the water in the pool is too cold, which it is.
Our well is 750 feet deep.
Wow.
And that brings up some pretty cold water from the aquifer.
Yeah.
And but anyway, we had a swimming pool and we have the fish pond and then the lake behind, which is very, very popular.
Yeah.
We have a sweat lodge back there and every full moon we do sweat lodges.
Oh, that's great.
Yeah.
And I don't know.
This is a good place.
Oh, it's a place I love to come.
Yeah. Now, one thing that I thought was interesting with your staff and your guest structure is as a person who's in the hostiling myself and on both sides, but I love to go and stay at places and I love to see people come stay with us.
You would instantly think you'd never want to leave here.
You would never want to leave here.
And then that is that the reasoning in the Genesis behind the staff being at a three month max. Yes, so that you'd have some fresh energy.
I mean, what about turning it over the staff every three months the manager every six months.
Yeah, you get fresh energy coming in.
Yeah. And, you know, when you do this 24 seven.
It's, you know, it's a tough job.
It's tough to keep those energy levels.
And to keep that energy up. We have that turnover and it really works. Yeah.
Is it tough sometimes though when you have someone that's so passionate.
Listen, we're just this week. Yeah.
This guy came up to me with tears in his eyes, saying, I'm leaving the hospital. I said, Why are you leaving? He said my three months are up. I said, No, I don't want you to leave.
You're such a great worker and we love you so much. And he said, Well, you know, my time's up. So I'll come back and visit.
But anyway, we did that happens. They respect it. You respect it. Yeah.
But they're always welcome to come back as guests. Oh, yeah. As we just met a former manager on the trail. Yeah. Yeah.
And then also from the booking standpoint, as you know, you're you've got this interesting membership program, but you can't book out more than a month in advance.
Tell us a bit more about how this works out. How's the well, of course, we have you have to make reservations to come here because I mean, especially on weekends, we fill up.
Yeah. And and I'm not sure that I know how to answer that.
It. Ask me that question with the system you have with.
Yeah. Is it true that they can't make a reservation more than a month in advance?
Well, I'm not, you know, I'm not sure that I can answer that. OK, that leads into something I haven't mentioned.
OK, we have a board of directors who operate and make all the rules for the hostel.
We have 12 people on our board. All right. And and everyone except me has been a manager of the hostel.
So they they know past managers. OK, that's cool. And not one person is paid anything.
They just do it on the the board, the staff. We do give the manager just a slight gratuity.
But people volunteer to do this. And you know, to me, that is the secret to the success of this hostel.
There are so many hostels. In fact, the great majority of the hostels are for profit. Yeah.
And it makes a difference because the fact that we are nonprofit, the staff is willing to contribute not only good work, but their talents.
We have so many artists that come here and paint these wonderful paintings for the tree houses.
And and they're willing to do that knowing that nobody is making any money out of this.
Not anybody. The board meets at the truck stop and we all pay for our meal.
So anyway, I think that that is one of the secrets to this hostel success.
I would definitely say so. You can definitely feel it in everyone's focus and energy and attention.
A lot of times when you start to mix money in it ruins things. It does. Yeah.
Well, I can understand because I get so many people who call me or come here and want to know they want to start their own hostel.
Yes. And I always encourage everybody. Yes, definitely. We need to have more hostels. Yeah.
But anyway, what would you have for some advice for those new absolutely encourage them to do it.
But but none of them are as crazy as I was. They have to make a living.
Thanks again for listening to the Hostel Road Trip podcast with us.
We want to take a second to talk about one of our sponsors that keeps the road trip alive.
That is the International Travelers House Hostels located in San Diego at three locations, Big Bear Lake and Newport, Rhode Island.
International Travelers House provides a unique experience at each one of their locations with great staff,
great food and tons of connections to the local community so that you can have a great time vacationing, traveling through or staying for a while.
If you want more information on ITH, check out ITHhostels.com to check out videos, pictures, blogs and direct booking to our locations.
Thank you again for listening. We hope you enjoy the conclusion of this episode.
Now, on the side of you doing this project, not only are you a lawyer, which is an amazing fact that I found out just by staying here, you're also an author.
Have the books been inspired by your time here? Is that a big part of your material that you gain?
Well, I taught a hiking class at our local college here for 20 years and took the students on the Appalachian Trail and many different places out west and in other countries as well.
And so my wife owned a travel agency and that made it very nice because I could travel and did travel a lot.
And of course, we travel together a lot. But when she goes on a cruise, which I refuse to do, I go to the mountains and go hiking.
So so so many of the books that I've written or travel books are books about my experiences in traveling.
That's awesome, which you can find inside of your common room there.
After you check in, you can see all your books there. But one cool thing I want to bring up for other hostile operators out there and something that I'm going to take as an insight from you is that awesome book that you have typed out on a typewriter and inside of a wooden case.
And it's amazing the story of your hostile and how you came up with the idea and the early struggles and then some fascinating stories ranging from Bob Seeger's roadies coming in to having the psychic come in and further instill that this is a very special place.
And I think that's really important for listeners out there and hostile operators that as your operation evolves and you might not be there as much. It's important for the guests and the staff to know how you got started, why you got started, what the purpose of us being here is, because a lot of people can hijack that when you're not here and they can redirect the energy in the wrong way.
That's a great thing that you did there. Incidentally, that story that I wrote while hostile is incorporated in my first book. So that story is also in one of my published books.
Outstanding. Yeah, but it's just a great way.
We just had a meeting of the board this weekend. And our discussion was this hostile 20 years from now, 30 years from now.
That's how I wanted to close the discussion. Where are we going?
How we want this place to remain the same. It would kill this place to make it grow or to build more tree houses and bring more people in.
That's the beauty of this place is it's relatively small so that we would like to have accommodations of maybe 20 people during the week and 30 people on the weekends, but they stretch it a lot because we have these great programs on weekends.
And so they will accommodate 40, but we don't want any more than that. In fact, that's too many because it loses something. Intimacy.
Right. That's one of the beauties of this place is interaction with the guests and getting to know each other and sharing stories.
We talked about that at Vicki's conference last week in how there's a sweet spot in hostels and 25 to 50, but no more than 50 because once you get above 50, you start to lose the intimacy.
It's much more difficult to control the energy and the mission and the flow.
And I think myself included a lot of times when you get started in this, you can get bad advice from bankers and accountants and people that tell you, oh, you should expand and you should do this and you should double up here and should put more over there.
And they can make you lose your special sauce.
Well, I mean, they're profit oriented. Yes.
And this place is not profit oriented. The only thing we want to do is make enough money to sustain us and to maintain the place and keep it going into the future.
Because like I said, nobody gets any money. Yeah.
This place. Yeah. You can tell that the the troubles of money have not intertwined into this place. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's kept its spirit free. It's the root of all evil. Yes, it is.
Well, Tom, just thank you so much for taking the time to sit with us here today and share your story.
And and hopefully we can do justice and getting the word out there more about this place so that not only can people come experience themselves, but then hopefully they can take it and put it into their experiences and put it to their new hostels and learn from a Jedi Knight, as I called you earlier.
But thank you so much, Tom. And thank you so much listeners from the Hostel Road Trip podcast. We have successfully finished up season three. It was a wild time on the road, but we look forward to hitting the road again for season four, southwestern US and continuing to highlight all these great, genuine, authentic hostels that are out there.
So you can have the experience before the experience is gone. Stay tuned for more.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was awesome. Yeah. All right. Thank you. So it was really an honor to be here, man. Well, it's an honor for me to have you here.
Yeah. And your staff is also loving and welcoming and so nice to us last night. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Well, they do that to everybody. Yeah, you can tell you were not treated. No, no, we were.
I just saw others come in and get the same thing. Yeah. And it was an absolute pleasure. Yeah.