Welcome back to the Light Keepers podcast, an
exclusive production of A Guiding Light, our
nonprofit charity dedicated to the idea that
knowledge is power and good information leads
to a better life. I'm Clayton Vandiver, your
Light Keeper, with my co -host, as always, Charlene,
our very own licensed clinical social worker
certified in the state of Florida. This show
is dedicated to everyone who wants to get the
most quality out of life that they can. Join
us for our conversation this week about the odd
couple, the spouse or loved one that just doesn't
quite agree on this edition of the Light Keepers
podcast. Please leave your questions or comments
below and join our conversation. Questions are
answered during the next show online every Wednesday
evening at 7 p .m. Eastern. The Light Keepers
podcast is an exclusive production of A Guiding
Light Incorporated. And agree with what? Agree
with wishes for medical treatment. Wishes! I
should have known that. So a lot of times on
this program we talk about advanced care planning,
advanced directives. And this goes back to that
because of an experience I had recently talking
with a couple. And it was a very, started out
as a very good conversation and became very intense
very fast. We got to talking about whether or
not one of them would want to be resuscitated
if their heart stopped. Talking about a do not
resuscitate form. I see. And one spouse said,
of course they do. And the other one said, no,
actually, I don't. And that was probably a little
bit of a surprise to both you and the other spouse.
Yes, it was. Usually they're in agreement. Correct.
They've already talked about things like that.
Most of the time when I talk with couples or
even families, it's been an ongoing conversation
or it's at least something that they've talked
about. You know, this isn't how I want to be.
This isn't how I want to live. I don't want to
do that treatment. So they have a general idea.
This time there was a difference in opinion and
for whatever reason, maybe because one person
was not comfortable bringing that topic up without
maybe someone there to mediate. Okay. I'm not
sure what the circumstances were exactly, but
either way. Did it sort of feel like they might
have changed their mind recently or maybe even
on the spur of the moment? I think it was a recent
development. This is someone who had a lot of
issues, medical issues going on. Like they reconsidered
in the scope of those? And they had recently
been hospitalized, and they could see that things
were progressing. Well, could there also have
been a little element of denial on the part of
the spouse? Like they kind of knew what was going
on, but weren't ready to... give up yet? There
was no denial. There was an overabundance of
not wanting to let go. Well, we can understand
that too. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's
ultimately what it boiled down to. Sometimes
as a counselor, as a therapist, I have to...
kind of blow the whistle and put the referee
shirt on and send everyone back to their corners
for a moment. And this was one of those situations
where I had to bring the meeting to a pause and
say, we need to talk about this. And there was
some heated discussion between the two of them.
And it went nowhere in a hurry. And I said, you
know, what I'm hearing here from one person is
they're tired. They're done. They no longer have
the quality of life that they want. Well, that's
a good, I have to bring up an important thing
I just observed there because, you know, in conversation
between the two, they might have never noticed,
they might have never picked up on it, but a
professional counselor, a professional social
worker, someone with lots and lots of master's
degrees. and quite a bit of student loan, is
someone who is going to recognize that and pick
up on it intuitively. And that's the wonderful
thing about having a little bit of professional
counseling on occasion. Someone there who can
advocate for you, can sort of see the things
that maybe you don't want to see or you're not
able to see, and they pick up on them. Now, not
every social worker can do this. Not every counselor
can do this. They're trained to, but some just
have amazingly intuitive, innate talent. And
that's why we started this show, because this
is one of them. An important part of being a
counselor, at least for me, an important part
of doing the counseling is not just acknowledging
what was said, but also recognizing and acknowledging
what wasn't. Yeah. And that's an important aspect.
And that came into play with this particular
couple. And I just had to pull it out in the
open and make it speakable. which is basically
where you take the elephant in the room and you
pull it out and you put a spotlight on it and
you say, here it is, let's talk about it. Well,
a moment ago we were talking about times when
you may have to ask people to step back into
their corners and give it a moment, give it a
pause and think about it. There are also times
when I guess you have to draw them out and say,
Look, this is the important thing that we're
all sort of dancing around now. Let's talk about
it. Let's get into that. Exactly. And that's
important. Talking about it and carrying on a
conversation and being open enough at any stage
in life, in any physical condition, is a good
time to open up even uncomfortable conversations
because without those, you really don't know
what that other person's wishes might really
be. And, you know, and the thing here is emotions
can be frightening. Emotions are scary, especially
when they're coming from someone that we love
and that we care about because we don't want
to upset them. And so we're going to tiptoe around
that topic. We're going to dance around that
topic. But the thing is, is by doing so, we're
not doing anybody any favors. And when talking
about advanced directives, it's particularly
difficult. Because you know that your choice,
what you want, is going to hurt them. Do you
think that the inability to bring these things
up, possibly the fear of hurting the other person
or just being uncomfortable, do you think that
it's just, for some people, a human condition?
Or is it a male -female? more dominant condition.
No, it's a human condition. Okay. I was wondering
if it might be that stoic male pride that men
just don't want to bring up things and talk about
them and be emotional. No, no, it's a human condition.
It's a human condition. And another aspect of
the human condition is not wanting to talk about
our own demise. Oh, of course. our own end of
life because there is a horrible taboo out there
that if we talk about it, we're going to make
it happen, we're going to bring it to pass, speak
it into being. And newsflash, we're all going
to die at some point. Better to be prepared than
not. And something you've told a lot of people
over the years is that you can look all over
your body, you're never going to find an expiration
date. That's true. I haven't found one yet. That's
very true. And that's actually, that comes from
a story of one of my hospice patients was very
sick, and they asked me how long they had left
because they were convinced they were going to
die that day. And I checked the feet, checked
the toes, checked the palms, and I said, no,
can't find it. And they said, find what? I said,
the expiration date. Making light of a very serious
thing, but the truth is, as much as we may fear
it, as much as we may anticipate it, the end
is going to come for all of us, but we don't
know when. And, you know, people say, wow, you're
always dealing with topics or your show is all
about, you know, nearing end of life, preparing
for end of life. It's all for older people. Newsflash,
folks. I'll never forget my first experience
with the potential for how short life can happen.
Well, it wasn't my first, but the first I experienced
as an adult. I was working, one of my first jobs,
you know, about 19, 20. A 21 -year -old colleague
of mine dropped to the floor with a heart attack.
He didn't expect it either. It can happen any...
Anytime. You know, my own father, 48 years old,
which seems quite young to me now from my perspective,
he had deep vein thrombosis, 1963. They just
called it a heart attack. And he dropped to the
floor. They said he was gone before he reached
the floor. And he certainly didn't expect that.
He didn't see it coming. He didn't plan for it.
And he had no plans at that time. Now, let me
ask you something. That's the important thing.
He didn't expect that was going to happen. I
hate to interrupt that, but let me ask you. Yeah.
Had your dad survived that heart attack but not
been well... The quality of life, yeah. Would
your mom... have known what he wanted for his
medical treatment. Well, you see, at that age,
they never would have discussed that. They never
would have thought of that. Most people don't.
This is a conversation for all people at any
stage in life, in any physical condition. You
know, we've been married 30 years this year,
and that's a real blessing. I thank the Lord
for every minute of my life. But we have only
had that conversation a handful of times. Usually
after something catastrophic. Years or in preparation
for something catastrophic. We've had our share
of operations and life. A couple of years ago,
a large SUV decided to T -bone our tiny little
Prius and turned my wife into a pinball inside
it. Believe me, we had some conversations immediately
after that, and thank the Lord we were able to
have those conversations. Correct. But it can
happen at any time. And the thing is, sometimes
the conversation that you have today... is different
than the conversation you have tomorrow. And
that's where this couple was. And even so, a
long time later as that couple was, you can reconsider.
Absolutely. And you might not have a chance to
have that conversation then and say, wait, I've
changed my mind. I didn't want that. I want this.
And see, and the thing is, is these care decisions
have profound impacts. For example, this particular
couple. The one opted for the do not resuscitate.
And we had a very long talk and I had to, you
know, call a timeout, let everybody sit in silence,
collect their thoughts and then come back into
the ring. But it was acknowledging what neither
one of them wanted to say. And that was that
one wasn't ready to give up. One wasn't ready
to let them go. The other. was no longer happy
with life. They were very happy with their family.
They still love their family. They would want
to be here forever if they could, but they knew
their health was failing, and they didn't want
to put themselves through that, and they didn't
want to put the family through watching it be
a long, drawn -out process. That is something
to think about. Again, at any stage in life,
at any age, in any physical condition, anything.
can happen. I used to talk to people when I was
with the Department of Elder Affairs for a few
years in a very out in left field break in my
career and I used to tell people about long -term
care insurance and they said well what's the
most important thing you can tell us about long
-term care insurance? I said well generally when
you're old enough to be thinking about it it's
too expensive for you to afford and when you're
able to afford it, you're too young to ever give
it any thought. And yet anyone at any time can
need long -term care insurance. Absolutely. Because
if you're that 21 -year -old fellow who survived
the heart attack, by the way, he might have had
a lifetime infirmity from that that then his
family would not have been prepared to assist
him with. And they might have needed special
treatment, special in -home care. special furnishings,
all kinds of things that long -term care insurance
might have helped him with. And I'm not selling
long -term care insurance. I'm just saying it's
something that you don't think about when you're
young because you think you'll live forever.
And by the time you think, hey, that would be
a pretty good idea. That might help out me and
help out my family. Oh, it's unaffordable by
now. Yeah. Because as you get older, the price
for that goes up. So if you're a younger viewer
or listener to the show, Talk to someone about
that sort of a benefit. If you're newly married
and you think, you know, I could get into a car
wreck tomorrow, God forbid, and I might need
that sort of help. Think about long -term care
insurance. It's a conversation you and your advisors,
counselors, might need to have. And, of course,
you can always add your comments or questions
below or topics you'd like to hear us talk about.
Of course, this is all a highly personal choice.
No conversation we have on the Light Keepers
podcast should ever take the place of your own
medical care team or other professional advisor
who should always be consulted on your specific
situational needs. We all need good information
to help make the most informed decisions so we
can live life on our own terms. This conversation
is to start you thinking because most people
are not prepared at all, are they? No. And some
are very well prepared indeed, just from joining
us here each week on the Light Keepers Podcast
every Wednesday at 7 p .m. Eastern. The Light
Keepers Podcast is an exclusive production of
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Light Keeper. We'll see you next time.