Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
IT pioneer and co -founder of Okaya, Gregory
Monviel. Now, in this conversation, we discuss
a host of topics from his childhood in France,
the evolution of the internet, the pros and cons
of social media, the global mental health crisis,
using AI proactively in assessing mental health,
Forging performance, biomarkers and physical
indicators, integrating wearables, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
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So with that being said, I introduce to you...
Gregory Monviel. Enjoy. Well, Greg, I want to
start by saying thank you so much for taking
the time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Well, thank you for having me.
Looking forward to it, James. So where on planet
Earth are we finding you this afternoon? Well,
this afternoon, I'm in Dallas, Texas. Brilliant.
So almost afternoon for you then. Let's start
at the very beginning of your journey then. So
based on your accent, I would imagine you're
not a born and bred Texan. Tell me where you
were born and tell me a little bit about your
family dynamic, what your parents did, how many
siblings. Sure, absolutely. Well, yes, you and
I are on the other side of the pond originally.
I grew up in France, where I spent the first
17 years. And from the family dynamic, I was
the only kid. Both my parents were physical therapists.
My dad worked in a hospital, my mom for herself.
So I guess from an early age, I was used to seeing
people helping others and bringing them back
to their feet, literally, based on... on what
they were doing. And both my parents were a lot
into sports. So I grew up playing sports in France
and attending a lot of games, especially rugby,
of all things. And along the way, got the opportunity
to see what was happening on this side here in
the U .S. and did a few abroad stay. And the
very cool part, my parents were... nice enough
or crazy enough, however way you want to describe
it, to let me come and study here in the U .S.
when I was 17. So I went to Santa Monica College
and UCLA. I was playing water polo back then.
So it was really, it was heaven for that European
kid who grew up in France in the 80s and 90s
to be thrown in the U .S. university environment.
That was brilliant. So you fell in love in the
country with the country. Eventually, I became
a U .S. citizen along the way to work there and
started my own company roughly around 2000. Every
time, the thread was, how can we use technology
to make people's lives better? That was really
the common thread. As far as the big landmarks,
as we think about things throughout our lives,
I'm sure many will relate, 2010, I was very lucky
to have my daughter arrive in my life. And I've
been very happy to jiggle the hats of a father
and an entrepreneur at the same time. And sometimes
also Coach Waterpolo is still on the side because
that's a fun thing to do, to get back to the
community and also to helping kids grow in a
structured environment. Whereabouts exactly in
France did you grow up? I grew up in Paris, so
you can use all the cliché of the Parisian brat
that you want. That's totally fine. It would
be very true as well. And the interesting part,
my mom is from the French house. My dad was from
the Pyrenees. So I've always been used to being
around mountains on a given basis and always
loved the sea as a result. Spent way too much
time in the mountains, I guess. What sent them
into the world of physical therapy? Water polo
right away as a reason. And I really loved it.
Brought me a lot of fun and opportunities after
that. I didn't realize that water polo was as
big in Europe, but when I came to the US, it
was really a lot of the Navy SEALs and some of
those people that I saw played water polo a lot.
But I didn't realize there was a large element
of that in the European side as well. Yeah, it's
not as big, but nowadays in France, it's not
as big as Spain and Greece. They're the powerhouse.
The UK is rising, especially on the women's side.
So it's getting better, but it's nothing compared
to, as you said, Southern California, especially
that San Diego, Orange County area where they
live and breathe with water polo. Yeah, absolutely.
What about career aspirations? When you were
still in the school ages, what were you dreaming
of becoming? School age and studying. So I did
my undergrad in econ and computer science at
UCLA, mostly, and that was a blast. Then after
I graduated, it was late 90s, and I got to work
for a... pure internet -focused consulting company
named Viant. And that was in San Francisco. And
that went on for a few years. It was great. Got
to learn a lot. Everything you heard about the
badness of the late 90s in San Francisco around
startups is true. We've seen a lot of it. But
going back to study, the part that got pretty
neat is that I had the opportunity to go back
to school. So I went to the University of Chicago.
And I studied, of all things, I did a master's
in Egyptology because I wanted to keep studying
Egon and I wanted to study the ancient world.
And the best avenue back then was to do a program
at what's called the Near Eastern Language and
Civilization School, which pretty much is hieroglyphics
and working with raw material. That's a really
interesting perspective. I talk a lot about...
The lessons in history, I mean, not to mention
the fact that we go to war over and over again
as a species, we just don't learn. But let's
move that aside. The wisdom as far as ancient
medicine, and I would argue physical therapy
is really kind of in that world. They're using
holistic methods to heal us, whether it's plant
medicines, whether it's movement, chiropractic,
acupuncture. What about from the econ side? Are
there lessons woven into ancient civilizations
that we need to be leaning back into at the moment?
Yeah, you know, there are a few things. First,
let me go back to the point you were making about
medicine, because something very interesting,
it's called the Edwin Smith papyrus. And it was
very much the first compendium of medical conditions
that the Egyptians had identified. And when you
go and look at those documents, you could see
that those guys already had an understanding
of things like cholesterol nowadays. Of course,
they didn't know what it was because they didn't
have the same tools, but they had an understanding
of what it was doing to arteries and how to potentially
treat it. So history keeps on repeating itself,
unfortunately, for many things. On the econ side,
especially I was studying international trade.
the less trade barriers you have uh usually the
better it is for for commerce in general and
for everybody uh that's something that has been
shown throughout history not just the egyptian
but then uh sorry i'm a history buff don't worry
we'll get back to that to the firefighting side
at some point yeah i know i know but you know
if you then if you start to to jump into more
like uh the italian renaissance and the venetians
and trade is what really made the world grow
out especially because um from the standpoint
of when you trade, people are going along with
the trade. So you discover new cultures, new
way of thinking, and there's a mix that happens
that's highly valuable. So those were the main
two things that go back. Now, as a fun aside,
after they taught us the language, of course,
we had to have tests and exams. Sometimes you
would translate text. It's not like the big inscription
you see on the monuments, but a piece of stone.
The best comparison I could give it, it would
be like creating an email. Literally, there are
pieces that remain where the guy is writing to
his wife, hey, I have to stay in the city longer
to sell the crop. Make sure you take care of
the farm. I hope the kids are doing well. And
by the way, watch out for the brother -in -law
because he can't plow the field properly. It's
literally discussions that we're having just
in a different format nowadays. So it was really
big eye -opener. And even some of the way the
language is structured is very much structured
the way computer language is done nowadays. So
tons of things to learn from the past. You just
made me think of something that never even occurred
to me before. When we talk about trade in the
old form, it was literally getting on a ship
and going to another culture, bringing your products,
taking another product back. There are good examples,
obviously, like the spices of India, and there's
bad examples like slavery. But you had to interact
with those other people. You had to understand
their customs. You maybe even learned the language.
And so there was a real relationship there. Now,
fast forward to the stock exchange in New York
or this virtual world that we live in. You've
completely lost that. Do you think that this
technology, on one hand, has become detrimental
to the relationships required to create trades
in their original form? Yeah. I mean, every time
you lose the connection between two parties,
that's usually when problems start to happen
because then you just become a series of lines
in an email that can become some issue. And that's
true with trade. That's true with sales. That's
true with everybody. It's something we see when
we deal with firefighters. It's always better
to deal with them face -to -face than over email.
I think the biggest issue that I see nowadays,
especially when you look into some of the automated
trading, is that you don't even need the human
in the middle anymore to get the efficiency in
the market. In the old days, so to speak, what
was interesting is that you could also learn
things as you go along. So you talk about the
spice trade, which was huge. But as people were
going through the spice trade, if you think about
it, that also opened their eyes to different
construction techniques, different ways to store
material, different ways to... to do things that
they could bring back. So people would bring
back a lot more than just the spices alone. There
was a huge amount of corpus of knowledge that
they could bring to potentially help one location.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I can never remember
the exact quote, but I think it was Mark Twain
said something to paraphrase, the enemy of prejudice
is travel. And now when you actually go to another
place. Not only are you seeing the people and
you're interacting with them and you're understanding,
again, the shared humanity, but also the innovation.
And I love that quote, the rising tide lifts
all ships. You know, if you go to Norway and
see how they do the prison system and Portugal's
decriminalization of drugs and Finland's school
system and the way Japan views food, the whole
world could learn from that. Boiled down to a
digital age, people aren't immersing themselves
in these cultures anymore and having these aha
moments of we should bring this back to America
or England or France. Yeah, absolutely. And then
there are also some geographical advantages.
Again, knowing where you grew up and where I
grew up, if you think about it, you drive, what,
four hours from Paris or maybe five or six hours
from London. You can be in so... such a variety
of culture, but also in ways of doing things.
And someone from the Netherlands is going to
have very little in common with someone from
a different area, but you can learn different
ways of doing things. In other parts of the world,
you drive five hours, you're still in the same
state. And that also plays a big role. Absolutely.
You got into the internet world very early. Before
we progress into how you're using technology
today, which is very exciting. Back then, what
were the directions that you thought the internet
was going to take that didn't manifest? And then
what were the things that surprised you now looking
back of where you thought it was going to go
20 years ago? Yeah, so it's really interesting
because when I got to UCLA, I think it was in
93, 94 that I started UCLA, we literally had
some of the first connection and first accounts.
I'm old enough where... Or yes, listeners, you
guys can put me in a dinosaur group. That's fine.
But I still remember the dialogue mode and then
being mesmerized when the screen was scrolling
at the time. But back then, I think you could
see how information exchange was not going to
be the same anymore. Where I was a bit interested
is that in France, in the late 90s, we had something
called the Minitel. which for all intents and
purposes was the internet. It was like small
boxes hooked up to the phone and you could already
go and book your train tickets online. You could
find some information, some directories. And
you could argue that France missed the boat on
the internet because of the Minitel. But I think
it also brought me into that view of what is
going to be the first usage of the internet in
the US. Obviously, the boom in how people marketed
themselves and branded themselves became big.
What I was not seeing as much at first, up until
I started to work for that consulting company,
is once you're in the middle of a change, you
don't see how much people on the outside are
not caught up with the change. And there were
a lot of the fears that were about the internet
back then. Those are the same fears that you
have about AI right now. And I think the companies
that did well were the companies that were supposed
to alleviate the fears while still forging ahead
and bringing new innovation. Now, fast forwarding
to the conversation now, we're going to get into
some beautiful applications of AI. What are the
fears, like actually well -founded fears of AI
if used poorly? And then where do you hope on
a positive side AI takes us? Well, I think we're
recording this a few days after Anthropic got
shut down by DoD because they did not want to
remove the guardrails. I think when we talk about
AI in general, we need to take a little step
back away from everything that we hear from the
media standpoint and everything. At the core
of what AI is at the moment, is just an engine
that is able to ingest a ton of documents and
then make statistical guesses as to what the
answer should be when you talk about a large
language model. So literally, based on what you
feed it, you can start to say, hey, give me your
best idea on how to deal with this problem or
that problem. That part, that capacity to do
this for me is incredible. Regardless of what
your job is, regardless of what your interests
are, that idea that you can access that amount
of knowledge and get some decision and insights,
that's a huge positive opportunity. Now, if you
don't put the guardrails in and say, bring me
back any crazy idea, or do not worry about the
consequences on my neighbor for the idea you're
going to bring me, that's when you fall on the
other side of the spectrum. That's where you're
no longer helping, but you're creating a lot
more issues than you were intending at first.
I saw, it was a post, a quote, but it was something
to the effect of AI can help me write and paint
so I have more time to do the dishes and sweep
the floor. He said, but what I want AI to do
is to help me sweep the floor and clean the dishes
so I have more time to write and paint. And I
thought that was beautiful because I had someone,
when I wrote my most recent book, tell me, one
of my guests say, well, you can just get AI to
write it. And I was just like, I can't think
of anything worse than getting AI to write a
book of this thing that's burning in my heart
of all these experiences and these people that
we lost and these changes we want to make. But
what an amazing opportunity for it to do. the
things that really human beings shouldn't be
doing anyway, automate that and turn back time
as far as our humanity and our creativity. Yeah.
And AI, again, is the sexy marketing word as
well for, in one case, stats. When you look at
cars or robots, they still call it AI, but it's
a different type of automation in the field of
firefighting. I'm sure everyone would agree,
especially their loved ones, that we'd much rather
send a robot into a blazing building to do the
work rather than send a human being that may
not make it out of the building. So there are
definitely some good use. And the way at least
we're looking at AI, I'm looking at AI and trying
to... to also get my daughter to understand with
AI, it's like if you use it as an assistant,
as a companion to augment what you want to do,
it becomes a tremendous ally. But when you let
it make the decisions for you, when you take
that agency away from yourself or from other
people, that's when you cue in every single bad
movie we grew up with on things attacking us,
and that's where we may end up. I worked for
Universal Studios for 22 years. And the beginning
of that, I did the Terminator 2 stunt show. So
I was brought up on stage with these drones flying
around and chasing Arnold Schwarzenegger. And
then here we are now in 2026 watching military
videos of exactly that. So it's kind of ironic
that I look at AI the way that we're talking
about, the right way. And I use it for creating
videos. I just did a promo for the television
adaptation of my book. And I used AI to create
a trailer. Amazing. I use it to edit the show.
Like you said, it's a tool, it's an adjunct,
but to then insert that into the creativity or
like you said, take off the guardrails where
now it can send off all these weapons to do whatever
and no one's overseeing it. Now we're in Terminator
2 Judgment Day. So we do have a responsibility
in this time, you know, day and time to. Same
as the people that made social media were realizing
when it got away from them the damage that it
was doing on some respects. I think it's a very
important conversation. So it remains a tool
that allows us to do more human things. Oh, absolutely.
And what you'll see as we have this discussion
today, I'm definitely not on the alarmist side
of things, but at times they're very practical.
You just mentioned when you were at the studios,
the drone were flying around. Those drones were
piloted by humans in the back, which is the way
pretty much every single drone, at least on the
US side, are being flown regardless of civilian
or not. And I'm sure you had a level of comfort
because you knew the operators and you knew they
were not going to run that drone into you or
do their utmost for it to not happen. If that
drone was fully automated, like some of the DJI
that can follow you when you run, just so it
looks cool. You know, the number of things that
could go wrong, and I'm not even talking about
attacking someone. No, just things that can go
wrong that you need to have built into the system
and be able to react. That's not trivial. And
the last thing you want is pretty like a drone
hitting you as you're doing your stunt to jump
in a water tank. So that's where I think there's
still a lot of work to do in that field. Yeah,
yeah. I know even with the automated cars and
some of these things, like my... laptop freezes
sometimes my cell phone freezes sometimes so
you know if we can't get the most trivial technologies
in our homes to be super reliable i i don't know
if it's time to trust the computer world to be
completely autonomous quite yet yeah all right
well you alluded to you know what we're doing
now well excuse me what you're doing now and
helping my community walk me through um the journey
to okay and then let's start talking about you
know what the original concept even was sure
um so the very long of the uh the very short
of the story and we can dive into it more is
that when you use okay we have a technology platform
that helps people understand their state of mental
fatigue readiness and they can then use that
information in different ways but The why, which
is always what's important to why do people get
into those things. Again, as we go through life,
whether it's personal or people around us, we
see people who struggle with mental wellness
or being too tired, all those things. And in
my case, in the case of some of my co -founders
as well, we've lost people just like I think
almost anyone in the fire service has lost people
along the way. there are a few things that always
came up that were very frustrating when you like
to help others. It's always that idea of, I wish
I had known sooner. I wish they had spoken up.
I wish there had been signs. And that's frustrating
to hear when it's a problem that's repeating
again and again and again. And so that was really
the nexus of us wanting to do something in general
to help. Now, that infamous aha moment, even
though it's a very interesting term, At some
point, I was doing quite a bit of work as part
of the Intel Software Innovator Program. And
back then, Intel was really awesome. They would
give us a lot of hardware. Two or three years
before the hardware, we make it to commercial.
And one day, they gave us those very specialized
cameras that now have made their way into cell
phones and a bunch of other applications. And
on the camera box, it said, hey, it can pick
up your heart rate. And my reaction was like,
absolutely no way that this thing can work. So
I did what I tend to do, which was get on my
indoor bike, had my heart rate monitor on, and
lo and behold, that thing was picking my heartbeat
within two or three beats of my Garmin sensor.
And it was that moment where you're like, you
know, voice and voice analysis is there. Computer
vision is trying to see things that us as humans,
we can't. And let's say, why don't we try to
build something that's as simple as an MRI or
a blood check to understand your state of mental
well -being? Because in the end, the sooner you
can understand that you're starting to trend
a certain direction, the sooner you can address
it. And we started to work on this along the
way. We started to do some work with the U .S.
Air Force, with whom we're also still doing some
projects. Because their biggest issue is we want
to make sure our people are ready because we
don't want to lose them. And right now, a lot
of the decision -making that a pilot is going
to make or someone who does maintenance is self
-reported. Just like any pilots in the world
or in your field, most firefighters, most operations,
you're self -reporting whether you can do the
job or not. That leads to many, many, many issues.
And we started working with them. And now we
have something stable working with a few squadrons.
And we're starting to work within fire departments.
That's very exciting because the application
is the same, but people's approach and people's
perception are a bit different as well. And that's
very exciting to see how we can help this group.
How was the camera able to pick up the heartbeat?
Oh, all right. So this one baffled me for a while.
I have no problem admitting to it. Yeah, yeah.
So pretty much there are two ways that they do
it. On newer models, because now I think there
are even some apps where you can see this, the
cameras are smart enough or sharp enough to pick
up the change in coloration in the blood flow
in the veins. So as they see the flow in the
veins, you can start to figure out the timing
of the heartbeats in there. That's the way it's
currently being done. And a lot of those cameras
as well, they just don't have the video feed,
but they also have an infrared feed. So for example,
anyone who, you know, when you open your iPhone
or you open certain other things, not just the
basic video as you and I see it, they also have
another cloud feed being shown on the face. to
measure different facial landmarks. That's incredible.
I'm going to do a tangent and then we'll get
back to the other metrics that you guys are using.
But just while I remember, I want to see if this
is a myth or if this really is true. Everyone's
reports that they'll have a conversation about
something, not a Google, not anything like that.
The phone just happens to be in the room. And
then all of a sudden the social media adverts
are full of the thing that they were just talking
about. Are these phones listening? Some, yes.
And I wish I could give you guys a list. I'm
sure I would be the most popular guest on the
podcast if I could give you the list of the ones
to look for or not. But no, really, the way you
have to think about it is, and that's something
actually most people can do from being educated
about the problem. Ambient technologies work
differently. So that's why sometimes you have
to say the keywords. I'm going to use Alexa because
I don't have one here, so we don't have to worry
about it. So the phone is always on listening
for that keyword where you say Alexa. When you
say Alexa, it is supposed to just trigger the
full listening part where the information is
then being sent to the servers. There are different
ambient technologies. much more on an always
-on listening system. So looking at how it works
behind the scene is always an important one.
Now, if you're totally into paranoid mode, you
can look at the web traffic on your phone or
on your router, and you will see what gets sent.
But the simplest way as well is really to look
at how the triggers are being sent. Okay, good
to know. All right. Well, let's talk about vagal
tone voice. I had Jim pool on a couple of times,
the founder of not the founder, excuse me, the
CEO of a new calm and amazing down regulation
software. But recently they've done, they've
woven in a stress test now. And he was talking
on here that the vagal tone or the voice can
show the vagal tone and therefore your stress
level. So what are you guys finding as far as
the voices and analytical tool for your product?
The voice is a great analytic tool. There's no
doubt about it. You can, and also in what we
do. So pretty much when you're an end user, we'll
talk about the admin, the station side of things
later. But as an end user, you come and do your
check -in. The video kicks in, you interact with
the AI and you have like a short two, three minute
conversation with the AI. The platform will remember
previous conversation as well. So it's not like
a boring set of things. What gets very interesting
is that the voice will change from one event
to the other. The voice will change based on
what you're talking about as well. So your voice
says a lot. And where it gets even more bewildering
is that once you start to put the video side
in things, at times you can get perfect alignment
between what the person says and how they're
expressing it. And at times you can get quite
a difference in patterns between what they say
and how they say it. And that's really that nuanced
information that becomes very valuable. And what
about the face itself? Oh, the face speaks a
lot. That's the joke of, hey, Greg, you have
a long face today. What's a long face? And things
like this. Our facial expressions or facial traits
also can show a lot when it comes to, especially
to tiredness. You know, I think when people don't
sleep as much, it shows a lot. That's one of
the given example. But you can also see a lot
when it comes to eye blinks. And that's where
cameras are much better than humans at picking
those things up. And, you know, in the end, by
the time our analysis is done between voice and...
Between voice and face, we will have looked at
over 60 biomarkers, and all those biomarkers
can really tell a story about who you are and
where you're at at a given point in time. Where
I see a huge amount of value of this technology
is you take a station of firefighters who are
all working the same shifts. They are all in
the meat grinder together. So when they look
at each other, they're like, well, how are you
doing? I'm good. I'm fine. I just had an interaction
with a friend of mine who's still in the fire
service working a huge amount of, you know, not
just his regular hours, which are 56 plus hours
a week, but then overtime as well. And the father
of a new child. And I asked him, how are you
doing? I asked him because he looked awful. He
looked exhausted. And he's like, I'm good. I'm
good. So this is just it. In his world, he probably
seems he's fine. But now I'm out the fire service
and I have well -rested eyes. I can see the disconnect
between the words he's speaking and how he's
actually coming across to me in the real world.
Yeah, and what we're seeing, especially in any
sort of high -performance group, pilots, first
responders, we also see this in top athletes.
We're pretty much trained and conditioned to
always be ready to go. And you won't be ready
to go because that's the way you were told that
group has to be, but also because there's an
entire team that's relying on us doing a part
of the job for the team. So I think there's always
that fear of answering anything else other than
I'm fine because you may be worrying about some
of the consequences of it, which is too bad because
that's really where problems happen. But that's
part of the culture that we've all seen at this
level. You all have, you know, people that you've
lost. You want to make a difference in this mental
health space. What was the landscape that you
were seeing at the time? And what was some of
the problems that you were trying to solve with
your new technology? So, you know, I think when
you start at the time, you try to focus on the
end point. You know, can we help people? So the
number of suicides, for example, drops. But when
you start doing all this, you really look at
the last. the last few hours in the chain and
the more you work with professionals and the
more you realize that the real value for everybody
used to be as high up uh in the food in the chain
as possible meaning can you start to help people
with simple things just when they start to drop
and that's really the first step you know you
know you mentioned your friend was like 56 hours
and the kids and everything and and and and um
So ideally, when they're very early on and we
start to see things drop, let's call him Joe.
I don't know his name, but say, Joe, look, you're
starting to trend down. And it's always when
you talk about X or when you reflect upon Y that
you start to drop a little bit more. Here are
some resources provided by your department that
can help you. That ability to tell people, you
know what, I hear you, I see you, it's not going
to be used against you. Here's what you can do
to get better. That's really a big step. So that's
really the core of where we started. Now, you
know, when we do work with the administrative
side of things, the challenge there, they know
their teams are not doing well. The challenge
is how can we improve it? And then how can we
justify the budgets to improve it? So there's
a big administrative side of things that kicks
in. to help leadership, to help decision makers
deploy those systems at scale. We talked a few
days ago, when we set this up, I'm nine and a
half years deep into this podcast now. So that's
been a perpetual learning for me. I'm constantly
evolving. 10 years ago, we were like, wait, this
is a real thing. And then we were all saying,
oh, we have PTSD, and then there's moral injury,
and then there's sleep deprivation, and it just
slowly unpacks itself. But what I want to do
now is reframe the way that we look at physical
and mental health in the first responder professions
away from crisis, you know, we're dying of all
these things, which is a real thing, and into
performance. Because the tools that you would
use to forge a high level of performance, and
I'll give a perfect example because we're sitting
here on this particular date about three days
ago. I think it's Longwood. Forgive me if you're
from that place, but a Texas special operations
team rescued the crew from a hot air balloon
900 feet up an antenna, a telecom antenna. The
level of fitness and professionalism and training
that that team had to have to facilitate that
rescue is exactly what I'm talking about. That's
how we should be viewing our profession physically,
mentally, level of training. And so reframing
the mental health side from, as you said, let's
try and stop them dying to, well, let's forge
performance. Because if we're forging performance,
now we're talking about appropriate rest and
recovery and quality of sleep and reducing stress
and fitness standards and understanding nutrition
and hydration and relationships and good leadership,
just like you would for an NHL team or a Olympic
water polo team. Talk to me about that shift.
You're initially trying to solve the suicide
problem. When was it that you started realizing
that actually getting way ahead of it and focusing
on the ability to perform at a high level when
that ended up becoming the focus? Yeah, it's
pretty much the shift happened right when we
started to work with the Air Force. And because
Air Force and pilots have one thing that they...
use a lot that I wish was more present in the
fire industry, for example, they have simulators,
which means they can really put you in situations
where you will lose no matter what, but how you
are doing at a given point in time will have
an impact on how long it takes for you to lose.
And sometimes you can get the proper reactions
out of it. Here's what I mean by this. Let's
put, you know, Mental wellness and readiness
to decide. If tomorrow I walk into, you know,
I'm part of a crew and I walk into the station
and let's not even talk about a broken leg, something
as simple as a sprained ankle. You could have
the reaction and say, hey, Greg, just suck it
up. Get in your gear. We need to go on the call.
You're right. However, my ankle is still sprained.
We get there. We need to go up the ladder and
I'm supposed to be right behind you to assist
you. If I have a sprained ankle, I'm not going
to be keeping up with you. That's physically
impossible. There is going to be a delay. That
delay, that break, that drop in performance,
that's where you may end up being in a hospital
with high brain for like three weeks. And I think
everyone can realize this from the physical part
because it's easy to see someone who's got a
physical problem. Someone who is barely staying
awake because they did not sleep enough or did
not have enough recovery time. Someone who is
not in a proper state of mind because their kid
is having some very serious medical conditions
or any other issues. You're not going to see
that. But it's all going to be on a ladder behind
you. The risk is exactly the same. And when we
think about performance, that's what I love from
the, you know, when we talk about the Air Force
guys and aviation as well, they're really looking
at it of the act of flying is such a small part
of operation. If the person who does the planning
is not up to par, something bad's going to happen.
Maintenance crew? they do not do a bolt the right
way, something bad is going to happen. Your weapons
officer not having a good day, you're in trouble.
So it's really that team part. And that's where
the key is from the performance standpoint. Let's
put aside for a moment, hey, you know, James
is looking horrible today. He's tired and, you
know, suck it up, James. As to, crap, what's
going to happen when I need to rely on James
at a very brief interval? What's going to be
the consequence? That's where the performance
happens. And if you start to look at it this
way, I think many chiefs can also reframe how
they consider other options because in the end,
it's mission -driven. We're all there saving
lives. We're all there helping people. These
are the old problems that people have from the
fire side bringing it in. You don't perform as
well on the mission standpoint, and it reflects
on everybody, on the city, on your department,
on yourself. So I wish people took the same sport
-like approach to deal with the issue. This is
what happens when you reframe it. I'll give a
scenario, and this is a normal scenario. A fire
crew wakes up at 3 in the morning, and they had
a call at 1, they got to sleep for 30 minutes,
and now the tones have gone off again. Slide
down in one of my stations, a three -story fire
pole, down, get in the back of the tiller truck.
drive lights and sirens to a house fire, get
off the truck, throw a ladder, like you said,
throw on your gear and then climb and now make
a entry to a second story window. Now search
for a child in the pitchback, high, high stress,
low sleep. Now let's say you find that child.
Now you have to bring the child back down and
there's a delay because a train is blocked off
the ambulance. So now you're having to take off
your gear and now work a cardiac arrest on a
three -year -old. That is a. you know an incredibly
advanced scenario for any other profession have
all those different skill sets back to back to
back and yet this is the profession where like
i said work 56 hours and then mandatory over
time you know 80 90 100 hours and so because
we keep doing it people like well you know we've
got to have we've got to have people in the seats
versus if you asked yourself What would you need
to forge a high level of performance? So you
can drive that million dollar truck through the
town without killing anyone. You can see that
child in that blacked out room in your mind in
a flow state. You can remember the medications
that you got to give during that cardiac arrest.
And so when you reframe it with performance,
all of a sudden that sleep is imperative. Those
fitness standards are imperative. You know, the
mental health side is imperative. And so this
is what I love about, you know, what you guys
are doing. is you're really asking that crew,
are you ready for that call? Are you ready to
climb 900 feet to an aerial tower or the Orlando
Eye, like our Orange County rope rescue teams?
Are you ready to take that boat and look for
that person who's supposedly drowning in the
lake next to you? I mean, these are any other
profession, like you said, the military or trucking
or shipping or aviation. They won't let you go
if you're not ready. But my profession, they
turn their head and it's got worse and worse
and worse. So the ability to really look at this
crew or your whole department and say, how are
we really doing? And really see that chasm between
performance and arguably decay. Hopefully, this
will be a turning point for people to realize
how far we've fallen and how far we've got to
go in a good way, in a positive way to go back
to. forging these elite tactical athletes that
are able to make these life and death decisions
at a drop of a hat. Yeah, I mean, you're pretty
spot on. And one thing that from the start, we
were pretty clear on, we're not therapists, we
don't do diagnostic and treatment. And there
are many other reasons why people may need help
that go beyond therapy. But think of it like
a fitness assessment, but for your mental readiness
where You do the physical every year, you train
it every year, and that's what keeps you going
and in many cases keeps you alive. So there's
really no difference here. Can we put you in
a position to be ready when performance matters
the most? And in your example that you gave of
that goal, there are many departments where you're
going to have two or three calls arriving almost
at the same time. Could there be a world where...
Rather than knowing it's crew A, crew B, crew
C, then no matter what, it's going to A, B, C
goals, that you can do dynamic assignments based
on how people are doing. Because in the end,
again, the idea is to get that three -year -old
kid out of the building and in one shape so they
can be returned alive to their parents as soon
as possible. The idea is not, is crew A going
to go and answer the call? It's the end result
that matters and we need to focus in on more
from the performance standpoint. Absolutely.
Well, let's start with the first responder themselves.
Let's say it's a firefighter. What does the application
look for that individual? And then we'll go macro
as far as the battalion. Sure. Yeah, it's very
simple. Any sort of browser that you have, whether
it's your... Your desktop computer or a phone
or an iPhone, you come to the site and you do
a check -in. During the check -in, again, the
AI is going to be talking to you for a few minutes,
remembering your previous conversation. At the
end of that conversation, the outcome is a...
The neat part is that the score is only a reflection
on you. So you and I could both be at a 75 today,
but the reasons why we would both be at a 75
are very different. So there's no need to compare.
And when you do this, then you start to have
a mirror about how you're doing as a person and
how you're progressing. you can also have a way
to understand what your stressors or drivers
can be. For example, you may be feeling totally
fine and ready to go, to take the expression
of your friend, and then the platform will come
back and say, hey, wait a minute, Joe, you're
saying that you're fine, but all your biomarkers
are really showing a high level of fatigue. How
do you feel about this? Just to get people to
understand and to mentalize things better. So
that's really the core part of the application.
Obviously, people get into more at -risk ideation
speeches. We do have processes in place to alert
them and give them some options, but it's really
to help people realize where they are and get
a few simple things they can do in the moment
to improve their situation. Well, we're a very
competitive population as well. I know just in
myself, if there's something that tells me, okay,
100 is a perfect score, then I'm going to do
whatever I can to try and be 99 or whatever it
is and go to the station the next day. Where
are you at? Oh, you're only 76? I'm 81. What
are you doing? Well, I've decided to turn off
the TV now before I go to bed. Oh, okay, I'm
going to start doing that. So I can see how when
you're getting that input, it will actually educate
us on what is working. What isn't working? Are
we even doing okay in the first place? How far
have we got to go? So then you've got that interaction.
And I think this is, I was speaking to Josh Clemente
a while ago. This is the exciting thing about
AI. You know, when it comes to a counselor, when
it comes to a physician. They all have a place,
but I think we've lost the autonomy on our own
physical and mental health. And when you put
that power back into the palm of someone's hand
where they can look at their blood work and say,
okay, well, my cholesterol is a little high and
my sugar is a little high. Okay, well, let me
adjust the way that I eat. I don't need to go
to a physician and get prescription meds for
that. I can take care of that myself. And the
same with this. If I'm seeming like I'm okay,
but my score is repeatedly... you know, a 66
or a 60, then what is it that I'm missing? And
I realized, well, I'm having two beers every
night. Maybe if I just taper off that for a bit,
my quality of seat will go up. And now, lo and
behold, I'm in the 80s. So I like the fact that
it puts power back in the individual to start
self -experimenting and working on improving
their own scores too. You know, when obviously
on the platform, you own your own data, you decide
with whom you share it. So it's very private
to begin with. And that's also the idea of bringing
the agency back. We had an example not long ago
where actually when we studied some tests with
the problem, when someone in a program got a
score that was much lower than what he expected.
And he's also in a very high performance group.
So he had two very interesting reactions. The
first reaction was like. My score is low, therefore
the software is crap. But because they were doing
an eval, he had to talk to the equivalent of
a peer support. And the peer support said, okay,
well, do me a favor. Maybe go and talk to the
base counselor because we would like to have
that, you know, to return that feedback. And
very cool thing happened. He went to the base
counselor, realized there was a reason why the
score was low. But then as he started to voluntarily
work with that counselor, he could see the score
go up. And, you know, that's, to me, that's the
power of what we're doing. It's not about telling
you, hey, James, you're doing horrible today.
Suck it up. It's ready to get you to the point
of, here's what we're seeing. And because you're
a critical thinker, because you're into performance,
here are some of the behaviors we are seeing
about you. Do you want to improve it or not?
And then that really becomes your decision and
the impact on it. I mentioned New Calm before.
I think this is a beautiful example for you to
look at that, go, okay, it's lower than I want.
All right, well then, you know, go take a 20,
30 minute New Calm session. You know, find it
somewhere comfortable, put on a sleep mask, do
this. This is equivalent of about 90 minutes
of sleep. It down regulates your nervous system.
You know, go. walk around the station get some
daylight and drink some water and then and then
see where you are again because i mean this these
are all actionable things and we know that there's
a way of up regulating or down regulating and
sometimes it's just that and sometimes it might
even be like you know what i mean if you're not
doing well do you want to take half a day off
and you know we'll get someone to cover for you
today and therefore you know let's say you're
driving again a million dollar piece of apparatus
you don't have a horrible wreck and kill people
in intersection because you you know you're barely
awake so there's all these different applications
from the like you said forging that that elite
performance through to avoiding a disaster. So
I think just having the ability to test your
own cognition and see how you're feeling and,
you know, does that match up with what it says
that you're doing, especially as it learns you
better as the AI starts getting deeper and deeper.
Um, I'm sure there's a lot of trust then you're
like, okay, I thought I was doing all right,
but you know, I'm usually, uh, an 80 on this
and I'm a 60 today. You know, what am I missing?
Do I need to just, you know, go out of service
to 30 minutes, do a new calm session and then,
you know, jump back in again. So I think there's,
you know, there's, there's so much power in,
in, you know, understanding that there's a deficit
or disconnect between how we perceive we're feeling
and how we're actually doing as far as, you know,
fit for duty. Yeah, and sometimes you have that
external eye, that mirror reflecting on you and
say, here's what we're seeing. Do what you want
out of it. I think for a lot of people, especially
in the fire department, you know a lot of the
tools that people can use to improve themselves
quickly for a few minutes to be able to do a
task properly. I mean, if you get to a car crash
and the victim is not doing well from just the
trauma of having been in a crash. I've seen in
firefighters, you know how to talk to these people.
I mean, you don't get to someone who just got
out of some sort of crash and come on, suck it
up, Greg, you're fine. You know, just, you know,
take the bus, go home. No, you are trained to
help others. And really the idea is you have
those tools ready. At times it's just a reminder
of, hey, use those tools with yourself so you
can be even a better version of yourself for
your spouse, for your team, for everybody. Most
of the time, it's if you take things early enough.
you will be able to go a long way very quickly.
Absolutely. Well, what about the macro level?
So zooming out now, someone who's in a leadership
position that's overseeing the whole department.
Yeah. So for them, we do a few things. Because
if you think about it, for leadership, it's a
very tough equation they have to solve. I don't
think there's a single leader that I've run into
so far at any department that has not had to
to bury someone from their team or from their
teammates. So they're very, very aware of the
issue. The challenge they have is at some point
it becomes two dollars and cents. And how do
you translate that into your budget, into operational
decisions, into staffing decisions? And we're
spending a lot of time helping them really in
doing the math of readiness. Understanding that
when their teams improve their readiness, there's
a drop in overtime that's needed. It's a drop
in absenteeism. It's a drop in the small accidents
that you talked about. You're so tired, you back
up that million -dollar truck into a wall because
you were too tired to do it. And that's a tough
balance. So to do this, what we do when we use
the platform is that we give you aggregated data
about... shift or your crews based on the size
of the station are doing and the organizational
topics they're talking about so you can start
to think of it as a almost like as a game where
here's a situation which tools are you going
to deploy to improve the situation so it becomes
very very dynamic and that's where that's where
we can bring like results very very quickly for
for those guys One of the key topics that I talk
all about is the firefighter work week. And the
example I give is the barista in Starbucks working
40 hours a week. The firefighter that just did
the scenario that I talked about with the child
is working 56. And now we have a recruitment
crisis because arguably we haven't fixed our
working conditions and now they're working 80.
I would assume in the hands of someone with some
humility. That if they then start using the products
and across the board, everyone seems to be below
par, but then it would also be a great insight
into maybe the need for a change of environment.
You know, a fourth shift is usually what it is.
So, you know, on a macro level, if people are
constantly seeming to be, you know, tired, you
know, under. uh, underprepared as far as, like
you said, cognition, physicality, that if you're
seeing it, you know, one or two people, okay,
well then what's going on with their lives or
in that station, or did they just have, you know,
poor luck with the number of calls they have.
But if you're looking at it across the board,
then maybe there's a systemic problem that then
needs to be addressed. You know, you're, you're
spot on. And, uh, we're part of the, um, as we
start our program and the lead, uh, the person
who leads, uh, the firefight, uh, the fire. initiated
within Esri as a former chief in Virginia. And
he and I were talking about the other day, and
he had that great line. I'm just going to read
it to make sure I don't butcher it. But it's
really, you know, the future for firefighters,
it's that ability to integrate human readiness
into the systems that guide operation, preparedness,
and resilience. And it's exactly what you described,
where right now we're looking at every single
little bit of firefighting. in silos. And because
we're looking at things in silos, we're missing
a lot. And that's one of the big shifts that
are going to need to happen, if anything, because
as you describe it, the shortage is getting worse
and worse. And at some point, something is going
to have to give. Well, with the financial conversation
as well, this is what's interesting. And it really
blows my mind because you would think that Someone
in a financial position, that being their job
title, would be looking at the downstream wastage
of money through people that you train that leave
one, two, three years later. The overtime that
you're filling at time and a half, not to mention
the human cost of that, but that doesn't show
up on a budget sheet. The lawsuits from... Tired
firefighters making mistakes, the medical disabilities,
the workman's comps, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera. We're talking tens, sometimes hundreds
of millions of dollars. And so the false economy
of doing it the same way has taken us to where
we are now. But when people say, oh, we don't
have the money, as you alluded to, a lot of these
fitness programs, your technology, the healthier
work week, there's really reallocation of funds.
You invest it in the people, you know, at the
front end and you will actually save money hand
over fist down the road. But you've got to obviously
invest in that change initially. But the savings
that people will have, you know, 5, 10, 15 years
later will actually allow you to then, you know,
invest in even more things, you know, gyms and
stations and mental health programs and, you
know, all these other areas. So, like I said,
the false economy is the... the term of how we
got here. And it's having that courage to realize
that the way we've done it isn't working. Let's
take that money from downstream. Let's put it
into a fourth shift, you know, okay. You know,
fitness standards, et cetera, et cetera. And
now you've, you've become a force multiplier,
not just of stopping the crisis, but actually
forging performance. Oh, spot on. And I know
we have a firefighter friend in common, Mary
Ballack, out of Florida. And I was talking with
her one day and she said something which I did
not think of, but makes a lot of sense. When
you think about the early peer support group,
they started and it was the same group of peer
support who were trying to help each other. And
then we all got older and our needs for... what
peer support should be was moving with us getting
older, you know, kids coming to the picture,
relationship issues coming to the picture, moving
around. And the peer at times had the tendency
of losing track of those new people coming in.
And you get into a program where, because you
have the disconnect between incoming classes,
which are also used to consuming technology differently,
have very different interaction with their peers
than they did just. 10 years ago, that's where
that communication and knowledge gap is going
to lead exactly to what you said. Bad budget
allocation, bad long -term, everything. And when
we work with those guys, that's where we really
look at the platform. We're helping a chief or
a leader who, let's face it, most of the time,
they're very disconnected from operations, especially
as soon as you have two, three, four stations,
it's hard to keep track of how everyone is doing,
let alone in the volunteer world. It's giving
them the tools to be able to understand where
their teams are at to make those budget decisions
that you described. Because really, maybe for
six months, you don't need to spend on, I don't
know, on psychology services. But for six months,
you need to double down on physical therapy services
or whichever group to have that real -time understanding.
It's going to help stretch your budget. It's
going to make you much more attractive as well
as a department when people look and consider
where to go and work. Yeah. And I think this
is another hidden cost or hidden saving, excuse
me, that I've talked to a lot of people that
have been in the profession. I got in just over
20 years ago now. There's people obviously that
have been way longer than me. When we were testing
for the fire service, it was incredibly competitive
and they were only taking the top. you know,
in one of my departments, 1%, but a lot of places,
you know, 10%, 15, 20%. So, you know, the chances
of you having a well -prepared, fit, passionate
firefighter are a lot higher. Now, as this has
gone down and down and down, the chances of you
hiring the wrong person that maybe is injury
prone, that just simply doesn't have the heart
for the job becomes a lot higher. And then there's
a financial cost attached to that too. So by
fixing the things that are a problem, by using
the lens of performance and technology like yours,
now, as we've seen in departments in Florida
that have made this progressive change, now they're
back to hundreds of people testing for a handful
of jobs again. So even that, from a budget -saving
point of view, you're getting better prepared
candidates in the first place, and then you're
coupling it with this performance lens. You want
to find another word for perform, but your performance
is, you know, at a much higher level now. And
then your longevity and your wellness is tied
into that, too. So you're saving on multiple
different elements. Oh, and you're spot on. And
it's amazing. I've had conversation with people
on both sides. Matthew Thorpe runs was one of
the leader of the Fire Academy on the East Coast.
And Tyler Capron was actually one of our stakeholders
because we do a lot of pilots with Boulder Fire.
And what they're seeing as well, because you
have that shortage, exactly the way you described
it, you have more people going to the academy,
but you may not get people who are really the
right fit for the job. However, the reality is
that it takes them three or four years potentially
to realize they're not the right fit. So you're
going to be investing a lot for that period of
time. And in the end, you're back to square one
and you have to go through. I think it was...
Tyler was mentioning $175 ,000 to $100 ,000 per
firefighter when you need to replace them. That's
a huge amount in the budget. That's a huge budget
line item to deal with. And if you could improve
that, as horrible as it is, always bring it back
to dollars and cents. It makes a lot of smart
sense there. Absolutely. No, it is. I think this
is what maddens me is the solutions are out there.
And even the financial savings are proven. It's
just deconstructing the myths that we've told
ourselves, putting in the tools that we know
work, and then trusting it. And like I said,
some of the departments in Florida are now talking
about the money they've saved and the sick time
that's been cut and the retention that they've
got. And like I said, the high level of... recruitment
interests that they have now, the number of candidates.
So yeah, I mean, this is where we were. Like
20 years ago, we had so many people vying to
be a firefighter and we can get back there. And
I would argue the candidates were even better
because as I've said, now these young people
understand strength and conditioning. They understand
accessory work and injury prevention and mindfulness
and breath work and all these other elements.
So you're good candidates. probably better than
we were 20 plus years ago because they've got
more tools. So leaning into that group of incredible
men and women, it's exciting what the future
of the fire service looks like. And now you turn
it this way, it actually brings a good point.
What's the reason why those people have the right
tools? If you think about it, if you're into
fitness, you can go on YouTube and you'll have
all the videos in the world. to give you info
on how to become a better power lifter or whatever
you want. So you're talking about the generation
that has grown up being used to being on those
platforms to know how to improve themselves.
And something, I'm part of the Fire Service Psychology
Association, and they just had their meeting
down in Houston a few months ago. And I remember
going to a station. It was interesting because
one of the older firefighters was saying, you
know, it's weird. And back then, in between calls,
everyone would be at the table talking and sharing
information. Nowadays, people are spread around
on their phone, oftentimes consuming information.
So I love your point about saying they're better
trained because they have been able to understand
how to use those tools that are at their disposal
to become better people. And the more departments
that make that mind shift of the workforce has
changed. the better it becomes to then bring
the tools to make everyone better. And as a result,
everyone's safer. Yeah. And then going to that
dining room table, which is very important, as
one of my guests, Dina Ali, talked about, the
goal is to not have peer support anymore, that
you just have a cohesive environment where you
sit down at a firehouse table and everyone talks
the way we should be talking to each other. And
therefore, they're able to offload, whether it's
their relationship problems or a call that they
just had. But then you use the technology. Like
you said, if I want to learn how to truly do
an Olympic snatch, I can look on YouTube and
find the world's best people coaching it now.
You know, 20, 30 years ago, you had some QVC
guy in spandex telling you that his... workout
routine was the latest and greatest and more
often than not you know he was lying to us all
and had surgery that's how he actually got slim
so now we have the real you know experts at the
end of our you know fingertips we have access
to these ai technologies like yours so then we
can also then sit around the dining room table
put some as you said some kind of um god what
was the term you used and the safeguards anyway
of our electronic use so that we can also lean
into that human interaction and we create this
conversation of performance which includes all
the mental health tools all of a sudden there's
not as much stigma around this conversation and
you're not weak anymore you're trying to work
on your performance so it completely reframes
it and you know that that weak part always uh
always smile when i hear it because um A, you
know, we talked about the suck it apart and the
extreme. But if you look at any high -level activity,
any high -level sports, what do all these athletes
talk about as to being the best in their field,
their mental game? It's what makes the difference
between, you know, average, good, great. That's
all they talk about. And we have the tendency
of thinking of, oh, it's a they problem, not
an us problem. But it's very much the case there.
Absolutely. Well, you've mentioned a couple of
departments. Talk to me about some of the agencies
that are using your platform. Yeah. So, Boulder
Fire is really the one with whom we do the most
pilots and get a lot of data back and information.
Not just token, sorry to use it, a fire academy
to do those things. And we have been able to
get a lot of firefighters, especially on VSCOS
under the leadership of Pete Burke, who's very
much into technology, to give us feedback on
the admin side of things. And we're getting a
lot of usage and feedback from them. And what
about on the military side? Military side, so
we are deployed at a few squadrons where they
use that in evaluation mode and in what they
call semi -operational mode. So it complements
their systems that have in place. What is interesting
in the military side, and something we haven't
talked about, is that the reason they're deploying
us, that right now, if you're a pilot, and by
the way, not just in military, aviation as well,
sorry to scare everybody right now, but you're
internally self -reporting your fitness to fly.
And you have a score between zero and three.
And the way it works is imagine you're around
a group of five or six people and said, okay,
so here's what we're going to be flying today.
How many points do you want to report on your,
you know, they call this human factor level between
zero and three. Zero is great, three is bad.
And what drives every leader crazy is that In
like 20 years, they've never seen someone report
more than a two, even after coming back from
like night ops and non -stop flying back and
forth across the globe. But what they found,
and which for us was a big lesson learned and
where the two already makes a difference, during
those briefing, you always have the leader say,
hey, I have an open door policy. You can come
and talk to me anytime there's an issue you want
to bring up. And I've heard this in a few briefings
and I go to this leader and say, hey, off the
record, how often does that happen? And it's
something like, Greg, 20 years, maybe five times,
10 at most. And that's the point I think, you
know, to go back that you were making around
leadership and understanding those generational
shifts. Look, I would encourage any fire chief
right now or any peer support. to log into Reddit
and to go into the firefighting thread on Reddit.
And you will see what the generational gap likely
is, what people talk about, what they worry about,
and why they do not report things to you the
way you think they're reporting it. And it's
that gap that creates all the problems in the
world. And that's what I like about this. It's
not your perception. Cause like I said, my perception
of how tired I am 48 hours into a shift when
everyone else has been there with me as I'm looking
at them and I'm awake, this guy's asleep with
his face in this coffee cup. So I'm doing better
than him. But then you go on the app and all
of a sudden it's like, James, you're a 46, you're
an absolute mess. So maybe you shouldn't even
drive home yet. Maybe you should go back in the
bunk room after you've been relieved, take a,
you know, like I said, a new calm session or
a 90 minute nap. And then drive home. Because
that's a big thing about this. And if you talk
to a lot of people in the sleep medicine world,
the cadres of special operations selection are
known to drive off the side of cliffs on their
way home. Because they're trying to sleep deprive
the recruits, but they themselves are sleep deprived
too. And it's the same with us. When we're driving
home after 24, 48, 72 hours. I've had it where
I don't even know how I got home before. Literally,
they're taking the micro -sleeps all the way
up. And that's so dangerous. And it's irresponsible,
really, for us to be on a road like that. Yes.
I mean, I heard the story like a gazillion times.
And what I find even more interesting in your
guys' field of work is that usually when accidents
happen, you're the ones who come and help people
who had those micro -sleep moments. So you really
see the consequences of it if you think about
it. I think it speaks a lot as well to that need
of sometimes just having that external, totally
unbiased system that tells you, hey, James, your
family loves you, your spouse loves you. Take
your 20 -minute nap, then get to them in one
piece. It's much more important than getting
back right now. Absolutely. Well, we talked about
the kind of firefighter, then we talked more
at the chief level. Are there any other areas
you want to talk about as far as the application?
Yeah, you know, it's the way we look really at
the platform is the way you talked about earlier.
You have all these different parties. And at
some point, a therapist comes into the picture
as well. For example, we're working with a group
in Minnesota who do a lot of support for firefighters.
We also have other therapists who are very much
embedded within that fire service community.
And the way we can help them is really twofold.
The first one is as long as you as a firefighter
want to share your data with a trusted therapist,
for example, or coach, you can share that data.
And we're finding that not having to repeat yourself
all the time about a problem goes a long way.
But also where there's a benefit is that at some
point people need help. And unfortunately, as
firefighters, you don't have access to the most
effective help all the time. So you mentioned
that story of not knowing how you got home, which
I heard a lot. The other story that I heard a
lot as well is, hey, I had a very impactful call
that I went to debrief about. I went to our EAP
-provided therapist, and then they ended up in
tears, and I had to console them. And in the
end, I helped the therapist, and no one helped
me. And I will never go back to those EAP -supplied
therapists. So that connection as well, that
closing the loop, closing the gap goes a long
way because you can't just tell someone they're
not doing well. You need to be able to help them
take the next step. I've heard those, what I
call EAP, Russian roulette stories so many times.
Occasionally someone is matched with the right
one or their EAP is actually deliberately chosen
where everyone on that list is culturally competent.
I've heard that universally, you know, across
the whole country numerous times. And it breaks
my heart because these are the people that are
still here despite that example, that experience.
But how many people will never be able to tell
that story because their one last I need help
reach out moment was to the wrong counselor through
an EAP. And they were like, all right, I am broken.
The counselor was in tears and then they end
up taking their own life. So this is something
that we know needs to be fixed. And, you know,
again, using technology like yours to see how
you're doing and then having the access to hopefully
the right kind of counselor. If you do kind of
red flag on your app, this is another really
important thing, because that whole if you're
struggling, reach out, call me. Here's a number
on the pin board. You know, we don't want them
to get to the point of struggling because that
point they're not calling anyone. They believe
that they are the reason for everyone's pain,
and they're just looking for a place to finally
end it. So seeing that trending, as we say in
medicine, of someone seeming to be doing well,
and then every time they come on shift, they're
a little bit lower, a little bit lower, you really
have an opportunity, again, to get ahead of this
way before it becomes critical. And to go back
to a point you were making earlier, James, the
idea of you're the financial guy, you're the
number guy. In most departments that we talk
to, when they hit like 5 % of utilization on
their EAP, they're ecstatic, which means that
they're still spending a lot of money on things
that are not being used. Why aren't they being
used? And that's also where I think the platform
that we have, and I'm sure other people do similar
things, there's a lot of value when, if I present
a recommendation to you via the platform, say,
hey, James, have you considered going to therapist
A? And if your answer is no, because we're having
a conversation, is then to ask you, why haven't
you been there? Because sometimes it may not
be that that person is not good, but it could
be that that person lives too far or it does
not match with your schedule or, or, or, or,
or. But unless you have that understanding from
a leadership standpoint, you're operating blind.
And it would be like, you know what? We're not
going to check the SCBA today and we're going
to send people out. There's not a single chief
that would say yes to that kind of madness. But
the way we're doing the whole support around
the human being, that's pretty much what we're
doing. Absolutely. Well, for people listening
then, where can they learn more about Okaya?
Where can they try it out, do a test, etc.? Sure.
So there are a few ways. Obviously, Okaya .me
is the main landing point. We will be at FDIC
on the Esri stand. So please come and say hi.
Tell us you heard about the podcast. I'm sure
James will want to hear about this as well. So
we can pass the information along. And we have
different programs where people can pilot our
technology with a small group, which is what
we recommend in general to begin with. And they
can start to use the tool. At the end, if you
know more about your truck and the state of your
truck than you do about your team, then we definitely
can help you and should be helping you. Absolutely.
Well, I want to throw some closing questions
at you before I let you go. The first one I love
to ask, is there a book or are there books that
you love to recommend? It can be related to our
discussion today or completely unrelated. Two
of them. And yes, I know I'm taking a bailout
answer. I'll say two of them. One is actually
a paper slash work from a lady named Carrie Lutie.
She's in West Virginia. She's part of FSPA. And
she has written a lot around the concept of dehumanization
of the firefighter. And that idea of because
we look at you as, or because those with the
environment of superheroes. of the consequence
of framing people as superheroes, especially
when they retire. Fascinating stuff. Highly recommend
it. So that's one. And the second book that I
pretty much recommend to everybody is Shoe Dog
from the founder of Nike. Because it's one of
those books where you keep on reading it and
you think you're just going to hear about the
failure of a company. And then it says, and that's
when I decided to start Nike. And actually, no,
it's the up and down of building a business,
building an operation, doing the right way to
humans, making mistakes along the way. Love this
book. Brilliant. I'm going to have to get it.
I've had that recommended a few times. So sounds
amazing. Yeah. All right. What about films, documentary
or television? Any of those that you love? Oh
God, well, you're talking to the kid who grew
up with Indiana Jones and went to do Egyptology.
So it's hard not to mention this one. No, there's
one. Okay, there's one that I will put the blame
squarely on my daughter named Murder in the Building.
And what I really like in besides the story is
really their ability of storytelling, but also
the magic that happens when you bring a great
cast together. And that often makes me think
of, you know, when I coach or when you put teams
together, there's a dynamic you need to have
as a team. And those guys every season know to
bring the supporting actors and the actors to
work together and really elevate the product
that average actors would not see. But again,
having been in the studios and in Hollywood,
you know how this thing worked better than ever
will. Yeah, well, I did the live show. So maybe
so I did the stunt shows in the theme parks.
I didn't do much in Hollywood. But yeah, that
was Steve Martin, Martin Short. And who's the
singer? I forget her name. Selena Gomez. There
we go. Yeah, yeah. I've watched a few of those.
They were really good. All right. Well, the next
question, is there a person that you recommend
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to
the first responders, military and associated
professions of the world? Again, I think there
are two trends in all the work that I'm doing.
And I think that also relates to all the people
that I've listened to in your podcast. It falls
into the category of people who've lived the
ugly part of firefighting and want to improve.
And in that case, Alan Moody is one person I'll
be more than happy to put you in touch with.
When he did his presentation at the Fire Service
Psychology Association, I think all of us were
borderline in tears and went to give him a hug,
not just for his story, but how it then impacted
and made him follow a certain path. That's one.
And the second part I'm always fascinated with
is the concept of team dynamics. How do you get
your team to perform in the middle of... of challenges.
And one guy is, uh, Adam Krikorian, who is the
head coach of, uh, the women's water polo team.
And the reason I'm thinking about Adam is that
in, um, during the Olympic games in Paris, they
didn't get the outcome they wanted, but literally
they had, um, they had people close to them,
close to the team dying or close to, uh, or being
in a, in a very bad shape. right around the games
and how it impacted team dynamics and how you
had to manage around this. He did an incredible
job. Brilliant. They both sound amazing. So thank
you for the suggestions. All right. Well, then
the last question before we just kind of reiterate
where people can find Okaya and yourself, what
do you do to decompress? I like to run. Whether
I like it or not, I have a hyperactive golden
that I need to take care of when I'm not traveling
and spending time with my kid. It's also a big
one because you get to see a new generation,
a new way of thinking, a new way of doing things.
And it's good to have that shift at times in
your mind. Absolutely. And you said it was okaya
.me. If people want to learn more about you,
where are the other places online to reach out
to you? The best way to reach out is via LinkedIn.
I'm at Gregory Marvial on LinkedIn. And you can
follow my Instagram if you'd like, but it's mostly
going to be pictures of airplanes and cool places
where I get to coach some of the water polo teams
that I'm helping. Did the fascination with airplanes
come from... the work that you do now? Or was
it there before? No, I always loved to fly. I
was very lucky that my parents, being the only
kid, always dragged me around in all their travels.
So I flew very early on. And that ability to
be in that medium was great. And one thing I
wish I had more time and means to do would be
to learn to fly instruments and do all this fun
stuff. It's great up there. Beautiful. All right.
Well, I want to thank you so much. It's been
such an amazing conversation. Like I said, what
excites me about this is it's already a product
that's in the world of performance now. We're
talking about where we need to be in the fire
service. And as I've alluded to recently, if
everyone's holding a rope and at the front end,
you've got the high performers and the back end,
you've got the people in crises. If you do the
same things that we know work, everyone's still
moving in the same direction with the rope. So
you're pulling the people on the back end out
of their dark place. And then if you keep moving
forward, obviously you're getting into the world
of high performance now. So I think it's a great
conversation, but also an incredible product
that I think the fire service really needs. So
I want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Hey, thank you so much. I really
appreciate it, James.