WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

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always, my name is James Geering, and this week

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it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show

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IT pioneer and co -founder of Okaya, Gregory

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Monviel. Now, in this conversation, we discuss

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a host of topics from his childhood in France,

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the evolution of the internet, the pros and cons

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of social media, the global mental health crisis,

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using AI proactively in assessing mental health,

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Forging performance, biomarkers and physical

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indicators, integrating wearables, and so much

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more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you...

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Gregory Monviel. Enjoy. Well, Greg, I want to

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start by saying thank you so much for taking

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the time and coming on the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. Well, thank you for having me.

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Looking forward to it, James. So where on planet

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Earth are we finding you this afternoon? Well,

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this afternoon, I'm in Dallas, Texas. Brilliant.

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So almost afternoon for you then. Let's start

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at the very beginning of your journey then. So

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based on your accent, I would imagine you're

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not a born and bred Texan. Tell me where you

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were born and tell me a little bit about your

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family dynamic, what your parents did, how many

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siblings. Sure, absolutely. Well, yes, you and

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I are on the other side of the pond originally.

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I grew up in France, where I spent the first

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17 years. And from the family dynamic, I was

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the only kid. Both my parents were physical therapists.

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My dad worked in a hospital, my mom for herself.

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So I guess from an early age, I was used to seeing

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people helping others and bringing them back

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to their feet, literally, based on... on what

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they were doing. And both my parents were a lot

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into sports. So I grew up playing sports in France

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and attending a lot of games, especially rugby,

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of all things. And along the way, got the opportunity

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to see what was happening on this side here in

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the U .S. and did a few abroad stay. And the

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very cool part, my parents were... nice enough

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or crazy enough, however way you want to describe

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it, to let me come and study here in the U .S.

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when I was 17. So I went to Santa Monica College

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and UCLA. I was playing water polo back then.

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So it was really, it was heaven for that European

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kid who grew up in France in the 80s and 90s

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to be thrown in the U .S. university environment.

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That was brilliant. So you fell in love in the

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country with the country. Eventually, I became

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a U .S. citizen along the way to work there and

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started my own company roughly around 2000. Every

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time, the thread was, how can we use technology

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to make people's lives better? That was really

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the common thread. As far as the big landmarks,

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as we think about things throughout our lives,

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I'm sure many will relate, 2010, I was very lucky

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to have my daughter arrive in my life. And I've

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been very happy to jiggle the hats of a father

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and an entrepreneur at the same time. And sometimes

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also Coach Waterpolo is still on the side because

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that's a fun thing to do, to get back to the

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community and also to helping kids grow in a

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structured environment. Whereabouts exactly in

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France did you grow up? I grew up in Paris, so

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you can use all the cliché of the Parisian brat

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that you want. That's totally fine. It would

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be very true as well. And the interesting part,

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my mom is from the French house. My dad was from

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the Pyrenees. So I've always been used to being

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around mountains on a given basis and always

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loved the sea as a result. Spent way too much

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time in the mountains, I guess. What sent them

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into the world of physical therapy? Water polo

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right away as a reason. And I really loved it.

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Brought me a lot of fun and opportunities after

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that. I didn't realize that water polo was as

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big in Europe, but when I came to the US, it

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was really a lot of the Navy SEALs and some of

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those people that I saw played water polo a lot.

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But I didn't realize there was a large element

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of that in the European side as well. Yeah, it's

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not as big, but nowadays in France, it's not

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as big as Spain and Greece. They're the powerhouse.

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The UK is rising, especially on the women's side.

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So it's getting better, but it's nothing compared

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to, as you said, Southern California, especially

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that San Diego, Orange County area where they

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live and breathe with water polo. Yeah, absolutely.

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What about career aspirations? When you were

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still in the school ages, what were you dreaming

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of becoming? School age and studying. So I did

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my undergrad in econ and computer science at

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UCLA, mostly, and that was a blast. Then after

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I graduated, it was late 90s, and I got to work

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for a... pure internet -focused consulting company

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named Viant. And that was in San Francisco. And

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that went on for a few years. It was great. Got

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to learn a lot. Everything you heard about the

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badness of the late 90s in San Francisco around

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startups is true. We've seen a lot of it. But

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going back to study, the part that got pretty

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neat is that I had the opportunity to go back

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to school. So I went to the University of Chicago.

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And I studied, of all things, I did a master's

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in Egyptology because I wanted to keep studying

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Egon and I wanted to study the ancient world.

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And the best avenue back then was to do a program

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at what's called the Near Eastern Language and

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Civilization School, which pretty much is hieroglyphics

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and working with raw material. That's a really

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interesting perspective. I talk a lot about...

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The lessons in history, I mean, not to mention

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the fact that we go to war over and over again

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as a species, we just don't learn. But let's

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move that aside. The wisdom as far as ancient

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medicine, and I would argue physical therapy

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is really kind of in that world. They're using

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holistic methods to heal us, whether it's plant

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medicines, whether it's movement, chiropractic,

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acupuncture. What about from the econ side? Are

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there lessons woven into ancient civilizations

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that we need to be leaning back into at the moment?

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Yeah, you know, there are a few things. First,

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let me go back to the point you were making about

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medicine, because something very interesting,

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it's called the Edwin Smith papyrus. And it was

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very much the first compendium of medical conditions

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that the Egyptians had identified. And when you

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go and look at those documents, you could see

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that those guys already had an understanding

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of things like cholesterol nowadays. Of course,

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they didn't know what it was because they didn't

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have the same tools, but they had an understanding

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of what it was doing to arteries and how to potentially

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treat it. So history keeps on repeating itself,

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unfortunately, for many things. On the econ side,

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especially I was studying international trade.

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the less trade barriers you have uh usually the

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better it is for for commerce in general and

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for everybody uh that's something that has been

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shown throughout history not just the egyptian

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but then uh sorry i'm a history buff don't worry

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we'll get back to that to the firefighting side

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at some point yeah i know i know but you know

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if you then if you start to to jump into more

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like uh the italian renaissance and the venetians

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and trade is what really made the world grow

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out especially because um from the standpoint

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of when you trade, people are going along with

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the trade. So you discover new cultures, new

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way of thinking, and there's a mix that happens

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that's highly valuable. So those were the main

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two things that go back. Now, as a fun aside,

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after they taught us the language, of course,

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we had to have tests and exams. Sometimes you

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would translate text. It's not like the big inscription

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you see on the monuments, but a piece of stone.

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The best comparison I could give it, it would

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be like creating an email. Literally, there are

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pieces that remain where the guy is writing to

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his wife, hey, I have to stay in the city longer

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to sell the crop. Make sure you take care of

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the farm. I hope the kids are doing well. And

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by the way, watch out for the brother -in -law

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because he can't plow the field properly. It's

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literally discussions that we're having just

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in a different format nowadays. So it was really

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big eye -opener. And even some of the way the

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language is structured is very much structured

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the way computer language is done nowadays. So

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tons of things to learn from the past. You just

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made me think of something that never even occurred

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to me before. When we talk about trade in the

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old form, it was literally getting on a ship

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and going to another culture, bringing your products,

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taking another product back. There are good examples,

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obviously, like the spices of India, and there's

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bad examples like slavery. But you had to interact

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with those other people. You had to understand

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their customs. You maybe even learned the language.

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And so there was a real relationship there. Now,

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fast forward to the stock exchange in New York

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or this virtual world that we live in. You've

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completely lost that. Do you think that this

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technology, on one hand, has become detrimental

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to the relationships required to create trades

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in their original form? Yeah. I mean, every time

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you lose the connection between two parties,

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that's usually when problems start to happen

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because then you just become a series of lines

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in an email that can become some issue. And that's

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true with trade. That's true with sales. That's

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true with everybody. It's something we see when

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we deal with firefighters. It's always better

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to deal with them face -to -face than over email.

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I think the biggest issue that I see nowadays,

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especially when you look into some of the automated

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trading, is that you don't even need the human

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in the middle anymore to get the efficiency in

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the market. In the old days, so to speak, what

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was interesting is that you could also learn

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things as you go along. So you talk about the

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spice trade, which was huge. But as people were

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going through the spice trade, if you think about

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it, that also opened their eyes to different

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construction techniques, different ways to store

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material, different ways to... to do things that

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they could bring back. So people would bring

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back a lot more than just the spices alone. There

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was a huge amount of corpus of knowledge that

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they could bring to potentially help one location.

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Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I can never remember

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the exact quote, but I think it was Mark Twain

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said something to paraphrase, the enemy of prejudice

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is travel. And now when you actually go to another

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place. Not only are you seeing the people and

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you're interacting with them and you're understanding,

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again, the shared humanity, but also the innovation.

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And I love that quote, the rising tide lifts

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all ships. You know, if you go to Norway and

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see how they do the prison system and Portugal's

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decriminalization of drugs and Finland's school

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system and the way Japan views food, the whole

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world could learn from that. Boiled down to a

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digital age, people aren't immersing themselves

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in these cultures anymore and having these aha

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moments of we should bring this back to America

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or England or France. Yeah, absolutely. And then

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there are also some geographical advantages.

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Again, knowing where you grew up and where I

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grew up, if you think about it, you drive, what,

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four hours from Paris or maybe five or six hours

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from London. You can be in so... such a variety

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of culture, but also in ways of doing things.

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And someone from the Netherlands is going to

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have very little in common with someone from

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a different area, but you can learn different

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ways of doing things. In other parts of the world,

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you drive five hours, you're still in the same

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state. And that also plays a big role. Absolutely.

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You got into the internet world very early. Before

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we progress into how you're using technology

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today, which is very exciting. Back then, what

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were the directions that you thought the internet

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was going to take that didn't manifest? And then

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what were the things that surprised you now looking

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back of where you thought it was going to go

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20 years ago? Yeah, so it's really interesting

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because when I got to UCLA, I think it was in

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93, 94 that I started UCLA, we literally had

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some of the first connection and first accounts.

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I'm old enough where... Or yes, listeners, you

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guys can put me in a dinosaur group. That's fine.

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But I still remember the dialogue mode and then

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being mesmerized when the screen was scrolling

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at the time. But back then, I think you could

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see how information exchange was not going to

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be the same anymore. Where I was a bit interested

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is that in France, in the late 90s, we had something

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called the Minitel. which for all intents and

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purposes was the internet. It was like small

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boxes hooked up to the phone and you could already

00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.519
go and book your train tickets online. You could

00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.440
find some information, some directories. And

00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.500
you could argue that France missed the boat on

00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:03.100
the internet because of the Minitel. But I think

00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:05.720
it also brought me into that view of what is

00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:08.460
going to be the first usage of the internet in

00:15:08.460 --> 00:15:12.350
the US. Obviously, the boom in how people marketed

00:15:12.350 --> 00:15:15.730
themselves and branded themselves became big.

00:15:17.889 --> 00:15:21.610
What I was not seeing as much at first, up until

00:15:21.610 --> 00:15:23.889
I started to work for that consulting company,

00:15:23.990 --> 00:15:29.690
is once you're in the middle of a change, you

00:15:29.690 --> 00:15:31.929
don't see how much people on the outside are

00:15:31.929 --> 00:15:35.250
not caught up with the change. And there were

00:15:35.250 --> 00:15:37.509
a lot of the fears that were about the internet

00:15:37.509 --> 00:15:40.000
back then. Those are the same fears that you

00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:44.059
have about AI right now. And I think the companies

00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:45.759
that did well were the companies that were supposed

00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.360
to alleviate the fears while still forging ahead

00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.559
and bringing new innovation. Now, fast forwarding

00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.019
to the conversation now, we're going to get into

00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:59.240
some beautiful applications of AI. What are the

00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:02.559
fears, like actually well -founded fears of AI

00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.720
if used poorly? And then where do you hope on

00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:11.210
a positive side AI takes us? Well, I think we're

00:16:11.210 --> 00:16:14.750
recording this a few days after Anthropic got

00:16:14.750 --> 00:16:18.149
shut down by DoD because they did not want to

00:16:18.149 --> 00:16:23.590
remove the guardrails. I think when we talk about

00:16:23.590 --> 00:16:25.590
AI in general, we need to take a little step

00:16:25.590 --> 00:16:30.549
back away from everything that we hear from the

00:16:30.549 --> 00:16:32.590
media standpoint and everything. At the core

00:16:32.590 --> 00:16:36.100
of what AI is at the moment, is just an engine

00:16:36.100 --> 00:16:40.519
that is able to ingest a ton of documents and

00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.779
then make statistical guesses as to what the

00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:45.659
answer should be when you talk about a large

00:16:45.659 --> 00:16:49.740
language model. So literally, based on what you

00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:52.340
feed it, you can start to say, hey, give me your

00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:55.539
best idea on how to deal with this problem or

00:16:55.539 --> 00:16:59.879
that problem. That part, that capacity to do

00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:02.720
this for me is incredible. Regardless of what

00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.500
your job is, regardless of what your interests

00:17:06.500 --> 00:17:08.599
are, that idea that you can access that amount

00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:12.099
of knowledge and get some decision and insights,

00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.740
that's a huge positive opportunity. Now, if you

00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:20.440
don't put the guardrails in and say, bring me

00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:24.000
back any crazy idea, or do not worry about the

00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.160
consequences on my neighbor for the idea you're

00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.559
going to bring me, that's when you fall on the

00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:30.740
other side of the spectrum. That's where you're

00:17:30.740 --> 00:17:33.859
no longer helping, but you're creating a lot

00:17:33.859 --> 00:17:36.339
more issues than you were intending at first.

00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:41.859
I saw, it was a post, a quote, but it was something

00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:46.920
to the effect of AI can help me write and paint

00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.619
so I have more time to do the dishes and sweep

00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:52.529
the floor. He said, but what I want AI to do

00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:54.789
is to help me sweep the floor and clean the dishes

00:17:54.789 --> 00:17:57.230
so I have more time to write and paint. And I

00:17:57.230 --> 00:17:58.750
thought that was beautiful because I had someone,

00:17:58.809 --> 00:18:01.769
when I wrote my most recent book, tell me, one

00:18:01.769 --> 00:18:03.569
of my guests say, well, you can just get AI to

00:18:03.569 --> 00:18:05.529
write it. And I was just like, I can't think

00:18:05.529 --> 00:18:08.690
of anything worse than getting AI to write a

00:18:08.690 --> 00:18:10.730
book of this thing that's burning in my heart

00:18:10.730 --> 00:18:12.549
of all these experiences and these people that

00:18:12.549 --> 00:18:14.970
we lost and these changes we want to make. But

00:18:14.970 --> 00:18:17.940
what an amazing opportunity for it to do. the

00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:19.700
things that really human beings shouldn't be

00:18:19.700 --> 00:18:24.220
doing anyway, automate that and turn back time

00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:29.079
as far as our humanity and our creativity. Yeah.

00:18:29.140 --> 00:18:33.420
And AI, again, is the sexy marketing word as

00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:36.579
well for, in one case, stats. When you look at

00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:40.380
cars or robots, they still call it AI, but it's

00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:44.279
a different type of automation in the field of

00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.279
firefighting. I'm sure everyone would agree,

00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:50.799
especially their loved ones, that we'd much rather

00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:55.960
send a robot into a blazing building to do the

00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:59.680
work rather than send a human being that may

00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.980
not make it out of the building. So there are

00:19:03.980 --> 00:19:06.980
definitely some good use. And the way at least

00:19:06.980 --> 00:19:09.200
we're looking at AI, I'm looking at AI and trying

00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:12.559
to... to also get my daughter to understand with

00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:15.299
AI, it's like if you use it as an assistant,

00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:18.240
as a companion to augment what you want to do,

00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:21.720
it becomes a tremendous ally. But when you let

00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.640
it make the decisions for you, when you take

00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.039
that agency away from yourself or from other

00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:31.640
people, that's when you cue in every single bad

00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:35.960
movie we grew up with on things attacking us,

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.890
and that's where we may end up. I worked for

00:19:40.890 --> 00:19:45.009
Universal Studios for 22 years. And the beginning

00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:48.519
of that, I did the Terminator 2 stunt show. So

00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:52.460
I was brought up on stage with these drones flying

00:19:52.460 --> 00:19:55.079
around and chasing Arnold Schwarzenegger. And

00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.759
then here we are now in 2026 watching military

00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:00.599
videos of exactly that. So it's kind of ironic

00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:02.779
that I look at AI the way that we're talking

00:20:02.779 --> 00:20:06.019
about, the right way. And I use it for creating

00:20:06.019 --> 00:20:09.839
videos. I just did a promo for the television

00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.039
adaptation of my book. And I used AI to create

00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:15.519
a trailer. Amazing. I use it to edit the show.

00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.539
Like you said, it's a tool, it's an adjunct,

00:20:19.539 --> 00:20:22.559
but to then insert that into the creativity or

00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.099
like you said, take off the guardrails where

00:20:25.099 --> 00:20:28.019
now it can send off all these weapons to do whatever

00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:31.160
and no one's overseeing it. Now we're in Terminator

00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:34.019
2 Judgment Day. So we do have a responsibility

00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:37.450
in this time, you know, day and time to. Same

00:20:37.450 --> 00:20:40.230
as the people that made social media were realizing

00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:42.130
when it got away from them the damage that it

00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:44.809
was doing on some respects. I think it's a very

00:20:44.809 --> 00:20:47.309
important conversation. So it remains a tool

00:20:47.309 --> 00:20:52.930
that allows us to do more human things. Oh, absolutely.

00:20:53.230 --> 00:20:56.369
And what you'll see as we have this discussion

00:20:56.369 --> 00:20:58.549
today, I'm definitely not on the alarmist side

00:20:58.549 --> 00:21:00.710
of things, but at times they're very practical.

00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:02.630
You just mentioned when you were at the studios,

00:21:02.630 --> 00:21:06.029
the drone were flying around. Those drones were

00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:08.809
piloted by humans in the back, which is the way

00:21:08.809 --> 00:21:11.329
pretty much every single drone, at least on the

00:21:11.329 --> 00:21:14.329
US side, are being flown regardless of civilian

00:21:14.329 --> 00:21:17.390
or not. And I'm sure you had a level of comfort

00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:20.250
because you knew the operators and you knew they

00:21:20.250 --> 00:21:22.490
were not going to run that drone into you or

00:21:22.490 --> 00:21:25.589
do their utmost for it to not happen. If that

00:21:25.589 --> 00:21:28.410
drone was fully automated, like some of the DJI

00:21:28.410 --> 00:21:30.369
that can follow you when you run, just so it

00:21:30.369 --> 00:21:34.079
looks cool. You know, the number of things that

00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:36.799
could go wrong, and I'm not even talking about

00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:40.000
attacking someone. No, just things that can go

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.779
wrong that you need to have built into the system

00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:45.839
and be able to react. That's not trivial. And

00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.559
the last thing you want is pretty like a drone

00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.720
hitting you as you're doing your stunt to jump

00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.259
in a water tank. So that's where I think there's

00:21:54.259 --> 00:21:56.819
still a lot of work to do in that field. Yeah,

00:21:56.819 --> 00:21:59.160
yeah. I know even with the automated cars and

00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.380
some of these things, like my... laptop freezes

00:22:02.380 --> 00:22:05.000
sometimes my cell phone freezes sometimes so

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:08.380
you know if we can't get the most trivial technologies

00:22:08.380 --> 00:22:11.579
in our homes to be super reliable i i don't know

00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:13.880
if it's time to trust the computer world to be

00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:18.819
completely autonomous quite yet yeah all right

00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:20.720
well you alluded to you know what we're doing

00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:22.559
now well excuse me what you're doing now and

00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.019
helping my community walk me through um the journey

00:22:27.019 --> 00:22:30.200
to okay and then let's start talking about you

00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.700
know what the original concept even was sure

00:22:33.700 --> 00:22:37.619
um so the very long of the uh the very short

00:22:37.619 --> 00:22:40.839
of the story and we can dive into it more is

00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.680
that when you use okay we have a technology platform

00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:48.200
that helps people understand their state of mental

00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:51.740
fatigue readiness and they can then use that

00:22:51.740 --> 00:22:55.190
information in different ways but The why, which

00:22:55.190 --> 00:22:57.710
is always what's important to why do people get

00:22:57.710 --> 00:23:00.490
into those things. Again, as we go through life,

00:23:00.609 --> 00:23:03.609
whether it's personal or people around us, we

00:23:03.609 --> 00:23:06.750
see people who struggle with mental wellness

00:23:06.750 --> 00:23:11.289
or being too tired, all those things. And in

00:23:11.289 --> 00:23:13.490
my case, in the case of some of my co -founders

00:23:13.490 --> 00:23:16.329
as well, we've lost people just like I think

00:23:16.329 --> 00:23:19.650
almost anyone in the fire service has lost people

00:23:19.650 --> 00:23:22.849
along the way. there are a few things that always

00:23:22.849 --> 00:23:25.029
came up that were very frustrating when you like

00:23:25.029 --> 00:23:28.130
to help others. It's always that idea of, I wish

00:23:28.130 --> 00:23:31.130
I had known sooner. I wish they had spoken up.

00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:35.170
I wish there had been signs. And that's frustrating

00:23:35.170 --> 00:23:37.210
to hear when it's a problem that's repeating

00:23:37.210 --> 00:23:41.650
again and again and again. And so that was really

00:23:41.650 --> 00:23:44.410
the nexus of us wanting to do something in general

00:23:44.410 --> 00:23:48.029
to help. Now, that infamous aha moment, even

00:23:48.029 --> 00:23:52.599
though it's a very interesting term, At some

00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:54.539
point, I was doing quite a bit of work as part

00:23:54.539 --> 00:23:56.819
of the Intel Software Innovator Program. And

00:23:56.819 --> 00:23:59.200
back then, Intel was really awesome. They would

00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:01.819
give us a lot of hardware. Two or three years

00:24:01.819 --> 00:24:03.720
before the hardware, we make it to commercial.

00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:08.700
And one day, they gave us those very specialized

00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:11.039
cameras that now have made their way into cell

00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:12.960
phones and a bunch of other applications. And

00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.799
on the camera box, it said, hey, it can pick

00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.880
up your heart rate. And my reaction was like,

00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:24.069
absolutely no way that this thing can work. So

00:24:24.069 --> 00:24:28.190
I did what I tend to do, which was get on my

00:24:28.190 --> 00:24:31.009
indoor bike, had my heart rate monitor on, and

00:24:31.009 --> 00:24:33.730
lo and behold, that thing was picking my heartbeat

00:24:33.730 --> 00:24:36.630
within two or three beats of my Garmin sensor.

00:24:37.569 --> 00:24:40.130
And it was that moment where you're like, you

00:24:40.130 --> 00:24:43.950
know, voice and voice analysis is there. Computer

00:24:43.950 --> 00:24:47.329
vision is trying to see things that us as humans,

00:24:47.509 --> 00:24:51.109
we can't. And let's say, why don't we try to

00:24:51.109 --> 00:24:56.130
build something that's as simple as an MRI or

00:24:56.130 --> 00:24:58.630
a blood check to understand your state of mental

00:24:58.630 --> 00:25:01.049
well -being? Because in the end, the sooner you

00:25:01.049 --> 00:25:02.750
can understand that you're starting to trend

00:25:02.750 --> 00:25:06.650
a certain direction, the sooner you can address

00:25:06.650 --> 00:25:10.269
it. And we started to work on this along the

00:25:10.269 --> 00:25:12.950
way. We started to do some work with the U .S.

00:25:12.950 --> 00:25:15.430
Air Force, with whom we're also still doing some

00:25:15.430 --> 00:25:21.009
projects. Because their biggest issue is we want

00:25:21.009 --> 00:25:23.670
to make sure our people are ready because we

00:25:23.670 --> 00:25:26.970
don't want to lose them. And right now, a lot

00:25:26.970 --> 00:25:29.470
of the decision -making that a pilot is going

00:25:29.470 --> 00:25:32.410
to make or someone who does maintenance is self

00:25:32.410 --> 00:25:35.329
-reported. Just like any pilots in the world

00:25:35.329 --> 00:25:39.329
or in your field, most firefighters, most operations,

00:25:39.529 --> 00:25:41.990
you're self -reporting whether you can do the

00:25:41.990 --> 00:25:45.900
job or not. That leads to many, many, many issues.

00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.720
And we started working with them. And now we

00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:51.039
have something stable working with a few squadrons.

00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:54.140
And we're starting to work within fire departments.

00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:56.859
That's very exciting because the application

00:25:56.859 --> 00:25:59.900
is the same, but people's approach and people's

00:25:59.900 --> 00:26:01.599
perception are a bit different as well. And that's

00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:04.359
very exciting to see how we can help this group.

00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:07.980
How was the camera able to pick up the heartbeat?

00:26:09.859 --> 00:26:12.799
Oh, all right. So this one baffled me for a while.

00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:17.500
I have no problem admitting to it. Yeah, yeah.

00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:20.759
So pretty much there are two ways that they do

00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:23.380
it. On newer models, because now I think there

00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:26.019
are even some apps where you can see this, the

00:26:26.019 --> 00:26:31.539
cameras are smart enough or sharp enough to pick

00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:34.259
up the change in coloration in the blood flow

00:26:34.259 --> 00:26:39.930
in the veins. So as they see the flow in the

00:26:39.930 --> 00:26:42.470
veins, you can start to figure out the timing

00:26:42.470 --> 00:26:45.289
of the heartbeats in there. That's the way it's

00:26:45.289 --> 00:26:47.750
currently being done. And a lot of those cameras

00:26:47.750 --> 00:26:50.630
as well, they just don't have the video feed,

00:26:50.769 --> 00:26:53.190
but they also have an infrared feed. So for example,

00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:56.349
anyone who, you know, when you open your iPhone

00:26:56.349 --> 00:26:58.950
or you open certain other things, not just the

00:26:58.950 --> 00:27:02.930
basic video as you and I see it, they also have

00:27:02.930 --> 00:27:06.400
another cloud feed being shown on the face. to

00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.339
measure different facial landmarks. That's incredible.

00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:12.680
I'm going to do a tangent and then we'll get

00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:14.759
back to the other metrics that you guys are using.

00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:17.839
But just while I remember, I want to see if this

00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.039
is a myth or if this really is true. Everyone's

00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:23.099
reports that they'll have a conversation about

00:27:23.099 --> 00:27:25.440
something, not a Google, not anything like that.

00:27:25.460 --> 00:27:27.599
The phone just happens to be in the room. And

00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:29.640
then all of a sudden the social media adverts

00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:31.119
are full of the thing that they were just talking

00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:38.119
about. Are these phones listening? Some, yes.

00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:43.000
And I wish I could give you guys a list. I'm

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:44.960
sure I would be the most popular guest on the

00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:48.140
podcast if I could give you the list of the ones

00:27:48.140 --> 00:27:51.799
to look for or not. But no, really, the way you

00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:54.579
have to think about it is, and that's something

00:27:54.579 --> 00:27:58.140
actually most people can do from being educated

00:27:58.140 --> 00:28:03.589
about the problem. Ambient technologies work

00:28:03.589 --> 00:28:06.230
differently. So that's why sometimes you have

00:28:06.230 --> 00:28:08.369
to say the keywords. I'm going to use Alexa because

00:28:08.369 --> 00:28:09.950
I don't have one here, so we don't have to worry

00:28:09.950 --> 00:28:13.849
about it. So the phone is always on listening

00:28:13.849 --> 00:28:17.430
for that keyword where you say Alexa. When you

00:28:17.430 --> 00:28:21.750
say Alexa, it is supposed to just trigger the

00:28:21.750 --> 00:28:24.269
full listening part where the information is

00:28:24.269 --> 00:28:27.349
then being sent to the servers. There are different

00:28:27.349 --> 00:28:30.809
ambient technologies. much more on an always

00:28:30.809 --> 00:28:34.130
-on listening system. So looking at how it works

00:28:34.130 --> 00:28:37.289
behind the scene is always an important one.

00:28:37.829 --> 00:28:40.430
Now, if you're totally into paranoid mode, you

00:28:40.430 --> 00:28:42.609
can look at the web traffic on your phone or

00:28:42.609 --> 00:28:46.250
on your router, and you will see what gets sent.

00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:49.670
But the simplest way as well is really to look

00:28:49.670 --> 00:28:54.490
at how the triggers are being sent. Okay, good

00:28:54.490 --> 00:28:57.700
to know. All right. Well, let's talk about vagal

00:28:57.700 --> 00:29:01.980
tone voice. I had Jim pool on a couple of times,

00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:03.779
the founder of not the founder, excuse me, the

00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:07.680
CEO of a new calm and amazing down regulation

00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:09.920
software. But recently they've done, they've

00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:12.299
woven in a stress test now. And he was talking

00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:16.099
on here that the vagal tone or the voice can

00:29:16.099 --> 00:29:18.259
show the vagal tone and therefore your stress

00:29:18.259 --> 00:29:20.799
level. So what are you guys finding as far as

00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:23.420
the voices and analytical tool for your product?

00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:27.809
The voice is a great analytic tool. There's no

00:29:27.809 --> 00:29:31.769
doubt about it. You can, and also in what we

00:29:31.769 --> 00:29:34.410
do. So pretty much when you're an end user, we'll

00:29:34.410 --> 00:29:37.529
talk about the admin, the station side of things

00:29:37.529 --> 00:29:39.730
later. But as an end user, you come and do your

00:29:39.730 --> 00:29:42.890
check -in. The video kicks in, you interact with

00:29:42.890 --> 00:29:45.269
the AI and you have like a short two, three minute

00:29:45.269 --> 00:29:49.430
conversation with the AI. The platform will remember

00:29:49.430 --> 00:29:52.049
previous conversation as well. So it's not like

00:29:52.049 --> 00:29:56.329
a boring set of things. What gets very interesting

00:29:56.329 --> 00:29:59.069
is that the voice will change from one event

00:29:59.069 --> 00:30:01.450
to the other. The voice will change based on

00:30:01.450 --> 00:30:04.289
what you're talking about as well. So your voice

00:30:04.289 --> 00:30:09.009
says a lot. And where it gets even more bewildering

00:30:09.009 --> 00:30:11.529
is that once you start to put the video side

00:30:11.529 --> 00:30:14.650
in things, at times you can get perfect alignment

00:30:14.650 --> 00:30:16.769
between what the person says and how they're

00:30:16.769 --> 00:30:20.390
expressing it. And at times you can get quite

00:30:20.390 --> 00:30:23.009
a difference in patterns between what they say

00:30:23.009 --> 00:30:25.650
and how they say it. And that's really that nuanced

00:30:25.650 --> 00:30:28.930
information that becomes very valuable. And what

00:30:28.930 --> 00:30:33.369
about the face itself? Oh, the face speaks a

00:30:33.369 --> 00:30:37.170
lot. That's the joke of, hey, Greg, you have

00:30:37.170 --> 00:30:39.109
a long face today. What's a long face? And things

00:30:39.109 --> 00:30:43.339
like this. Our facial expressions or facial traits

00:30:43.339 --> 00:30:45.900
also can show a lot when it comes to, especially

00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:49.180
to tiredness. You know, I think when people don't

00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:51.400
sleep as much, it shows a lot. That's one of

00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.099
the given example. But you can also see a lot

00:30:55.099 --> 00:30:57.579
when it comes to eye blinks. And that's where

00:30:57.579 --> 00:30:59.539
cameras are much better than humans at picking

00:30:59.539 --> 00:31:02.680
those things up. And, you know, in the end, by

00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:05.640
the time our analysis is done between voice and...

00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.259
Between voice and face, we will have looked at

00:31:09.259 --> 00:31:12.019
over 60 biomarkers, and all those biomarkers

00:31:12.019 --> 00:31:15.180
can really tell a story about who you are and

00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:18.579
where you're at at a given point in time. Where

00:31:18.579 --> 00:31:20.960
I see a huge amount of value of this technology

00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:24.180
is you take a station of firefighters who are

00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:26.920
all working the same shifts. They are all in

00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:29.160
the meat grinder together. So when they look

00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:31.359
at each other, they're like, well, how are you

00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:34.299
doing? I'm good. I'm fine. I just had an interaction

00:31:34.299 --> 00:31:36.359
with a friend of mine who's still in the fire

00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:39.579
service working a huge amount of, you know, not

00:31:39.579 --> 00:31:42.440
just his regular hours, which are 56 plus hours

00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:45.019
a week, but then overtime as well. And the father

00:31:45.019 --> 00:31:48.299
of a new child. And I asked him, how are you

00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:50.859
doing? I asked him because he looked awful. He

00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:52.559
looked exhausted. And he's like, I'm good. I'm

00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.059
good. So this is just it. In his world, he probably

00:31:56.059 --> 00:31:58.480
seems he's fine. But now I'm out the fire service

00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:02.230
and I have well -rested eyes. I can see the disconnect

00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:04.750
between the words he's speaking and how he's

00:32:04.750 --> 00:32:07.509
actually coming across to me in the real world.

00:32:09.210 --> 00:32:12.190
Yeah, and what we're seeing, especially in any

00:32:12.190 --> 00:32:16.470
sort of high -performance group, pilots, first

00:32:16.470 --> 00:32:20.109
responders, we also see this in top athletes.

00:32:20.950 --> 00:32:22.930
We're pretty much trained and conditioned to

00:32:22.930 --> 00:32:26.890
always be ready to go. And you won't be ready

00:32:26.890 --> 00:32:28.750
to go because that's the way you were told that

00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:30.650
group has to be, but also because there's an

00:32:30.650 --> 00:32:34.269
entire team that's relying on us doing a part

00:32:34.269 --> 00:32:36.430
of the job for the team. So I think there's always

00:32:36.430 --> 00:32:39.450
that fear of answering anything else other than

00:32:39.450 --> 00:32:44.170
I'm fine because you may be worrying about some

00:32:44.170 --> 00:32:46.190
of the consequences of it, which is too bad because

00:32:46.190 --> 00:32:48.890
that's really where problems happen. But that's

00:32:48.890 --> 00:32:52.269
part of the culture that we've all seen at this

00:32:52.269 --> 00:32:56.640
level. You all have, you know, people that you've

00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.220
lost. You want to make a difference in this mental

00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:02.180
health space. What was the landscape that you

00:33:02.180 --> 00:33:04.500
were seeing at the time? And what was some of

00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:06.160
the problems that you were trying to solve with

00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:11.059
your new technology? So, you know, I think when

00:33:11.059 --> 00:33:13.579
you start at the time, you try to focus on the

00:33:13.579 --> 00:33:19.180
end point. You know, can we help people? So the

00:33:19.180 --> 00:33:21.519
number of suicides, for example, drops. But when

00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:23.460
you start doing all this, you really look at

00:33:23.460 --> 00:33:27.019
the last. the last few hours in the chain and

00:33:27.019 --> 00:33:29.859
the more you work with professionals and the

00:33:29.859 --> 00:33:32.519
more you realize that the real value for everybody

00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:36.799
used to be as high up uh in the food in the chain

00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:39.599
as possible meaning can you start to help people

00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:42.599
with simple things just when they start to drop

00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:47.200
and that's really the first step you know you

00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:50.039
know you mentioned your friend was like 56 hours

00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.759
and the kids and everything and and and and um

00:33:53.710 --> 00:33:56.529
So ideally, when they're very early on and we

00:33:56.529 --> 00:33:59.369
start to see things drop, let's call him Joe.

00:33:59.490 --> 00:34:02.630
I don't know his name, but say, Joe, look, you're

00:34:02.630 --> 00:34:05.049
starting to trend down. And it's always when

00:34:05.049 --> 00:34:09.489
you talk about X or when you reflect upon Y that

00:34:09.489 --> 00:34:11.610
you start to drop a little bit more. Here are

00:34:11.610 --> 00:34:14.510
some resources provided by your department that

00:34:14.510 --> 00:34:18.639
can help you. That ability to tell people, you

00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:21.099
know what, I hear you, I see you, it's not going

00:34:21.099 --> 00:34:23.079
to be used against you. Here's what you can do

00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:26.079
to get better. That's really a big step. So that's

00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:28.659
really the core of where we started. Now, you

00:34:28.659 --> 00:34:31.840
know, when we do work with the administrative

00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.519
side of things, the challenge there, they know

00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:37.119
their teams are not doing well. The challenge

00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.179
is how can we improve it? And then how can we

00:34:40.179 --> 00:34:43.039
justify the budgets to improve it? So there's

00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.099
a big administrative side of things that kicks

00:34:45.099 --> 00:34:48.840
in. to help leadership, to help decision makers

00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:54.420
deploy those systems at scale. We talked a few

00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:58.880
days ago, when we set this up, I'm nine and a

00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:01.360
half years deep into this podcast now. So that's

00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:04.880
been a perpetual learning for me. I'm constantly

00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.079
evolving. 10 years ago, we were like, wait, this

00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:09.539
is a real thing. And then we were all saying,

00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:11.840
oh, we have PTSD, and then there's moral injury,

00:35:12.019 --> 00:35:13.739
and then there's sleep deprivation, and it just

00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:17.989
slowly unpacks itself. But what I want to do

00:35:17.989 --> 00:35:21.250
now is reframe the way that we look at physical

00:35:21.250 --> 00:35:23.510
and mental health in the first responder professions

00:35:23.510 --> 00:35:27.269
away from crisis, you know, we're dying of all

00:35:27.269 --> 00:35:30.210
these things, which is a real thing, and into

00:35:30.210 --> 00:35:33.510
performance. Because the tools that you would

00:35:33.510 --> 00:35:36.150
use to forge a high level of performance, and

00:35:36.150 --> 00:35:38.010
I'll give a perfect example because we're sitting

00:35:38.010 --> 00:35:40.650
here on this particular date about three days

00:35:40.650 --> 00:35:45.809
ago. I think it's Longwood. Forgive me if you're

00:35:45.809 --> 00:35:48.349
from that place, but a Texas special operations

00:35:48.349 --> 00:35:51.690
team rescued the crew from a hot air balloon

00:35:51.690 --> 00:35:57.030
900 feet up an antenna, a telecom antenna. The

00:35:57.030 --> 00:36:01.050
level of fitness and professionalism and training

00:36:01.050 --> 00:36:03.929
that that team had to have to facilitate that

00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:06.949
rescue is exactly what I'm talking about. That's

00:36:06.949 --> 00:36:09.409
how we should be viewing our profession physically,

00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:14.019
mentally, level of training. And so reframing

00:36:14.019 --> 00:36:17.019
the mental health side from, as you said, let's

00:36:17.019 --> 00:36:20.119
try and stop them dying to, well, let's forge

00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:22.280
performance. Because if we're forging performance,

00:36:22.460 --> 00:36:24.679
now we're talking about appropriate rest and

00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:28.400
recovery and quality of sleep and reducing stress

00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.039
and fitness standards and understanding nutrition

00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:33.960
and hydration and relationships and good leadership,

00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:38.000
just like you would for an NHL team or a Olympic

00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:41.860
water polo team. Talk to me about that shift.

00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:44.360
You're initially trying to solve the suicide

00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.360
problem. When was it that you started realizing

00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:50.039
that actually getting way ahead of it and focusing

00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:53.380
on the ability to perform at a high level when

00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:57.539
that ended up becoming the focus? Yeah, it's

00:36:57.539 --> 00:37:00.059
pretty much the shift happened right when we

00:37:00.059 --> 00:37:04.019
started to work with the Air Force. And because

00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:08.360
Air Force and pilots have one thing that they...

00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:11.280
use a lot that I wish was more present in the

00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:14.820
fire industry, for example, they have simulators,

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.460
which means they can really put you in situations

00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:23.760
where you will lose no matter what, but how you

00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:27.460
are doing at a given point in time will have

00:37:27.460 --> 00:37:29.400
an impact on how long it takes for you to lose.

00:37:29.539 --> 00:37:31.739
And sometimes you can get the proper reactions

00:37:31.739 --> 00:37:35.440
out of it. Here's what I mean by this. Let's

00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.929
put, you know, Mental wellness and readiness

00:37:37.929 --> 00:37:42.230
to decide. If tomorrow I walk into, you know,

00:37:42.250 --> 00:37:45.929
I'm part of a crew and I walk into the station

00:37:45.929 --> 00:37:50.530
and let's not even talk about a broken leg, something

00:37:50.530 --> 00:37:54.630
as simple as a sprained ankle. You could have

00:37:54.630 --> 00:37:57.010
the reaction and say, hey, Greg, just suck it

00:37:57.010 --> 00:37:59.030
up. Get in your gear. We need to go on the call.

00:37:59.909 --> 00:38:03.690
You're right. However, my ankle is still sprained.

00:38:03.989 --> 00:38:07.800
We get there. We need to go up the ladder and

00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:10.019
I'm supposed to be right behind you to assist

00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:13.179
you. If I have a sprained ankle, I'm not going

00:38:13.179 --> 00:38:15.460
to be keeping up with you. That's physically

00:38:15.460 --> 00:38:19.940
impossible. There is going to be a delay. That

00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:23.820
delay, that break, that drop in performance,

00:38:24.099 --> 00:38:27.739
that's where you may end up being in a hospital

00:38:27.739 --> 00:38:32.369
with high brain for like three weeks. And I think

00:38:32.369 --> 00:38:35.469
everyone can realize this from the physical part

00:38:35.469 --> 00:38:37.570
because it's easy to see someone who's got a

00:38:37.570 --> 00:38:42.309
physical problem. Someone who is barely staying

00:38:42.309 --> 00:38:45.170
awake because they did not sleep enough or did

00:38:45.170 --> 00:38:48.289
not have enough recovery time. Someone who is

00:38:48.289 --> 00:38:52.190
not in a proper state of mind because their kid

00:38:52.190 --> 00:38:55.190
is having some very serious medical conditions

00:38:55.190 --> 00:38:58.309
or any other issues. You're not going to see

00:38:58.309 --> 00:39:00.909
that. But it's all going to be on a ladder behind

00:39:00.909 --> 00:39:06.070
you. The risk is exactly the same. And when we

00:39:06.070 --> 00:39:08.769
think about performance, that's what I love from

00:39:08.769 --> 00:39:11.929
the, you know, when we talk about the Air Force

00:39:11.929 --> 00:39:13.769
guys and aviation as well, they're really looking

00:39:13.769 --> 00:39:19.610
at it of the act of flying is such a small part

00:39:19.610 --> 00:39:23.329
of operation. If the person who does the planning

00:39:23.329 --> 00:39:26.329
is not up to par, something bad's going to happen.

00:39:27.170 --> 00:39:30.380
Maintenance crew? they do not do a bolt the right

00:39:30.380 --> 00:39:34.659
way, something bad is going to happen. Your weapons

00:39:34.659 --> 00:39:37.139
officer not having a good day, you're in trouble.

00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:40.800
So it's really that team part. And that's where

00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.079
the key is from the performance standpoint. Let's

00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:47.300
put aside for a moment, hey, you know, James

00:39:47.300 --> 00:39:49.840
is looking horrible today. He's tired and, you

00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:52.719
know, suck it up, James. As to, crap, what's

00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.420
going to happen when I need to rely on James

00:39:55.420 --> 00:39:57.760
at a very brief interval? What's going to be

00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.460
the consequence? That's where the performance

00:39:59.460 --> 00:40:02.579
happens. And if you start to look at it this

00:40:02.579 --> 00:40:05.820
way, I think many chiefs can also reframe how

00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:09.059
they consider other options because in the end,

00:40:09.139 --> 00:40:12.300
it's mission -driven. We're all there saving

00:40:12.300 --> 00:40:14.840
lives. We're all there helping people. These

00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.280
are the old problems that people have from the

00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:20.039
fire side bringing it in. You don't perform as

00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:22.219
well on the mission standpoint, and it reflects

00:40:22.219 --> 00:40:24.780
on everybody, on the city, on your department,

00:40:25.059 --> 00:40:28.429
on yourself. So I wish people took the same sport

00:40:28.429 --> 00:40:33.269
-like approach to deal with the issue. This is

00:40:33.269 --> 00:40:36.650
what happens when you reframe it. I'll give a

00:40:36.650 --> 00:40:41.210
scenario, and this is a normal scenario. A fire

00:40:41.210 --> 00:40:44.070
crew wakes up at 3 in the morning, and they had

00:40:44.070 --> 00:40:46.710
a call at 1, they got to sleep for 30 minutes,

00:40:46.730 --> 00:40:49.130
and now the tones have gone off again. Slide

00:40:49.130 --> 00:40:52.409
down in one of my stations, a three -story fire

00:40:52.409 --> 00:40:54.590
pole, down, get in the back of the tiller truck.

00:40:54.989 --> 00:40:57.889
drive lights and sirens to a house fire, get

00:40:57.889 --> 00:41:00.150
off the truck, throw a ladder, like you said,

00:41:00.230 --> 00:41:02.750
throw on your gear and then climb and now make

00:41:02.750 --> 00:41:05.210
a entry to a second story window. Now search

00:41:05.210 --> 00:41:08.250
for a child in the pitchback, high, high stress,

00:41:08.469 --> 00:41:11.730
low sleep. Now let's say you find that child.

00:41:11.909 --> 00:41:14.389
Now you have to bring the child back down and

00:41:14.389 --> 00:41:16.849
there's a delay because a train is blocked off

00:41:16.849 --> 00:41:18.650
the ambulance. So now you're having to take off

00:41:18.650 --> 00:41:21.170
your gear and now work a cardiac arrest on a

00:41:21.170 --> 00:41:25.969
three -year -old. That is a. you know an incredibly

00:41:25.969 --> 00:41:28.650
advanced scenario for any other profession have

00:41:28.650 --> 00:41:30.889
all those different skill sets back to back to

00:41:30.889 --> 00:41:33.889
back and yet this is the profession where like

00:41:33.889 --> 00:41:36.809
i said work 56 hours and then mandatory over

00:41:36.809 --> 00:41:41.130
time you know 80 90 100 hours and so because

00:41:41.130 --> 00:41:44.130
we keep doing it people like well you know we've

00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:45.630
got to have we've got to have people in the seats

00:41:45.630 --> 00:41:49.369
versus if you asked yourself What would you need

00:41:49.369 --> 00:41:51.889
to forge a high level of performance? So you

00:41:51.889 --> 00:41:54.010
can drive that million dollar truck through the

00:41:54.010 --> 00:41:56.929
town without killing anyone. You can see that

00:41:56.929 --> 00:41:59.210
child in that blacked out room in your mind in

00:41:59.210 --> 00:42:01.730
a flow state. You can remember the medications

00:42:01.730 --> 00:42:03.690
that you got to give during that cardiac arrest.

00:42:04.010 --> 00:42:06.050
And so when you reframe it with performance,

00:42:06.349 --> 00:42:09.489
all of a sudden that sleep is imperative. Those

00:42:09.489 --> 00:42:11.570
fitness standards are imperative. You know, the

00:42:11.570 --> 00:42:15.289
mental health side is imperative. And so this

00:42:15.289 --> 00:42:17.110
is what I love about, you know, what you guys

00:42:17.110 --> 00:42:20.250
are doing. is you're really asking that crew,

00:42:20.369 --> 00:42:22.690
are you ready for that call? Are you ready to

00:42:22.690 --> 00:42:25.809
climb 900 feet to an aerial tower or the Orlando

00:42:25.809 --> 00:42:28.389
Eye, like our Orange County rope rescue teams?

00:42:28.469 --> 00:42:30.889
Are you ready to take that boat and look for

00:42:30.889 --> 00:42:33.150
that person who's supposedly drowning in the

00:42:33.150 --> 00:42:35.610
lake next to you? I mean, these are any other

00:42:35.610 --> 00:42:38.050
profession, like you said, the military or trucking

00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:41.300
or shipping or aviation. They won't let you go

00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:43.260
if you're not ready. But my profession, they

00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:45.079
turn their head and it's got worse and worse

00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:47.920
and worse. So the ability to really look at this

00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:51.159
crew or your whole department and say, how are

00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:54.800
we really doing? And really see that chasm between

00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:59.920
performance and arguably decay. Hopefully, this

00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:01.699
will be a turning point for people to realize

00:43:01.699 --> 00:43:04.159
how far we've fallen and how far we've got to

00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:06.980
go in a good way, in a positive way to go back

00:43:06.980 --> 00:43:10.300
to. forging these elite tactical athletes that

00:43:10.300 --> 00:43:12.159
are able to make these life and death decisions

00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:16.599
at a drop of a hat. Yeah, I mean, you're pretty

00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:18.900
spot on. And one thing that from the start, we

00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:22.099
were pretty clear on, we're not therapists, we

00:43:22.099 --> 00:43:25.280
don't do diagnostic and treatment. And there

00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:27.900
are many other reasons why people may need help

00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:32.019
that go beyond therapy. But think of it like

00:43:32.019 --> 00:43:35.780
a fitness assessment, but for your mental readiness

00:43:35.780 --> 00:43:38.809
where You do the physical every year, you train

00:43:38.809 --> 00:43:40.989
it every year, and that's what keeps you going

00:43:40.989 --> 00:43:44.269
and in many cases keeps you alive. So there's

00:43:44.269 --> 00:43:47.110
really no difference here. Can we put you in

00:43:47.110 --> 00:43:49.250
a position to be ready when performance matters

00:43:49.250 --> 00:43:52.230
the most? And in your example that you gave of

00:43:52.230 --> 00:43:55.309
that goal, there are many departments where you're

00:43:55.309 --> 00:43:57.110
going to have two or three calls arriving almost

00:43:57.110 --> 00:44:02.150
at the same time. Could there be a world where...

00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.559
Rather than knowing it's crew A, crew B, crew

00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:06.800
C, then no matter what, it's going to A, B, C

00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:09.800
goals, that you can do dynamic assignments based

00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:11.860
on how people are doing. Because in the end,

00:44:11.860 --> 00:44:15.739
again, the idea is to get that three -year -old

00:44:15.739 --> 00:44:18.760
kid out of the building and in one shape so they

00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:20.679
can be returned alive to their parents as soon

00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:24.460
as possible. The idea is not, is crew A going

00:44:24.460 --> 00:44:27.159
to go and answer the call? It's the end result

00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:29.260
that matters and we need to focus in on more

00:44:29.260 --> 00:44:32.869
from the performance standpoint. Absolutely.

00:44:32.869 --> 00:44:36.150
Well, let's start with the first responder themselves.

00:44:36.349 --> 00:44:38.809
Let's say it's a firefighter. What does the application

00:44:38.809 --> 00:44:41.250
look for that individual? And then we'll go macro

00:44:41.250 --> 00:44:46.210
as far as the battalion. Sure. Yeah, it's very

00:44:46.210 --> 00:44:49.210
simple. Any sort of browser that you have, whether

00:44:49.210 --> 00:44:54.679
it's your... Your desktop computer or a phone

00:44:54.679 --> 00:44:58.400
or an iPhone, you come to the site and you do

00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:01.280
a check -in. During the check -in, again, the

00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:03.840
AI is going to be talking to you for a few minutes,

00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:06.800
remembering your previous conversation. At the

00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:09.659
end of that conversation, the outcome is a...

00:45:10.690 --> 00:45:13.710
The neat part is that the score is only a reflection

00:45:13.710 --> 00:45:18.989
on you. So you and I could both be at a 75 today,

00:45:19.170 --> 00:45:21.869
but the reasons why we would both be at a 75

00:45:21.869 --> 00:45:24.989
are very different. So there's no need to compare.

00:45:25.630 --> 00:45:30.690
And when you do this, then you start to have

00:45:30.690 --> 00:45:34.769
a mirror about how you're doing as a person and

00:45:34.769 --> 00:45:37.699
how you're progressing. you can also have a way

00:45:37.699 --> 00:45:39.920
to understand what your stressors or drivers

00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:44.300
can be. For example, you may be feeling totally

00:45:44.300 --> 00:45:46.420
fine and ready to go, to take the expression

00:45:46.420 --> 00:45:50.159
of your friend, and then the platform will come

00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:52.800
back and say, hey, wait a minute, Joe, you're

00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:56.099
saying that you're fine, but all your biomarkers

00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:59.179
are really showing a high level of fatigue. How

00:45:59.179 --> 00:46:01.579
do you feel about this? Just to get people to

00:46:01.579 --> 00:46:05.059
understand and to mentalize things better. So

00:46:05.059 --> 00:46:07.519
that's really the core part of the application.

00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:14.559
Obviously, people get into more at -risk ideation

00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:19.059
speeches. We do have processes in place to alert

00:46:19.059 --> 00:46:20.940
them and give them some options, but it's really

00:46:20.940 --> 00:46:23.000
to help people realize where they are and get

00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:25.480
a few simple things they can do in the moment

00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:29.260
to improve their situation. Well, we're a very

00:46:29.260 --> 00:46:33.780
competitive population as well. I know just in

00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:36.059
myself, if there's something that tells me, okay,

00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:40.159
100 is a perfect score, then I'm going to do

00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:43.400
whatever I can to try and be 99 or whatever it

00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:44.960
is and go to the station the next day. Where

00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:48.199
are you at? Oh, you're only 76? I'm 81. What

00:46:48.199 --> 00:46:50.300
are you doing? Well, I've decided to turn off

00:46:50.300 --> 00:46:52.219
the TV now before I go to bed. Oh, okay, I'm

00:46:52.219 --> 00:46:54.800
going to start doing that. So I can see how when

00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:57.400
you're getting that input, it will actually educate

00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:00.980
us on what is working. What isn't working? Are

00:47:00.980 --> 00:47:03.420
we even doing okay in the first place? How far

00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:06.699
have we got to go? So then you've got that interaction.

00:47:07.019 --> 00:47:09.719
And I think this is, I was speaking to Josh Clemente

00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:12.420
a while ago. This is the exciting thing about

00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:15.920
AI. You know, when it comes to a counselor, when

00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:19.900
it comes to a physician. They all have a place,

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:22.400
but I think we've lost the autonomy on our own

00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:24.260
physical and mental health. And when you put

00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:26.699
that power back into the palm of someone's hand

00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:29.380
where they can look at their blood work and say,

00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:32.840
okay, well, my cholesterol is a little high and

00:47:32.840 --> 00:47:34.780
my sugar is a little high. Okay, well, let me

00:47:34.780 --> 00:47:36.719
adjust the way that I eat. I don't need to go

00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:38.559
to a physician and get prescription meds for

00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:41.260
that. I can take care of that myself. And the

00:47:41.260 --> 00:47:43.960
same with this. If I'm seeming like I'm okay,

00:47:44.019 --> 00:47:47.900
but my score is repeatedly... you know, a 66

00:47:47.900 --> 00:47:51.300
or a 60, then what is it that I'm missing? And

00:47:51.300 --> 00:47:53.559
I realized, well, I'm having two beers every

00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:56.019
night. Maybe if I just taper off that for a bit,

00:47:56.099 --> 00:47:58.980
my quality of seat will go up. And now, lo and

00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:01.800
behold, I'm in the 80s. So I like the fact that

00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:04.139
it puts power back in the individual to start

00:48:04.139 --> 00:48:07.219
self -experimenting and working on improving

00:48:07.219 --> 00:48:11.820
their own scores too. You know, when obviously

00:48:11.820 --> 00:48:15.340
on the platform, you own your own data, you decide

00:48:15.340 --> 00:48:17.960
with whom you share it. So it's very private

00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:19.960
to begin with. And that's also the idea of bringing

00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:23.340
the agency back. We had an example not long ago

00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:25.760
where actually when we studied some tests with

00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:28.280
the problem, when someone in a program got a

00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:31.320
score that was much lower than what he expected.

00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:34.099
And he's also in a very high performance group.

00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:37.239
So he had two very interesting reactions. The

00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.530
first reaction was like. My score is low, therefore

00:48:39.530 --> 00:48:43.369
the software is crap. But because they were doing

00:48:43.369 --> 00:48:47.429
an eval, he had to talk to the equivalent of

00:48:47.429 --> 00:48:51.769
a peer support. And the peer support said, okay,

00:48:51.889 --> 00:48:56.650
well, do me a favor. Maybe go and talk to the

00:48:56.650 --> 00:48:59.610
base counselor because we would like to have

00:48:59.610 --> 00:49:01.789
that, you know, to return that feedback. And

00:49:01.789 --> 00:49:05.030
very cool thing happened. He went to the base

00:49:05.030 --> 00:49:07.030
counselor, realized there was a reason why the

00:49:07.030 --> 00:49:10.469
score was low. But then as he started to voluntarily

00:49:10.469 --> 00:49:12.929
work with that counselor, he could see the score

00:49:12.929 --> 00:49:19.829
go up. And, you know, that's, to me, that's the

00:49:19.829 --> 00:49:21.690
power of what we're doing. It's not about telling

00:49:21.690 --> 00:49:24.090
you, hey, James, you're doing horrible today.

00:49:24.849 --> 00:49:28.309
Suck it up. It's ready to get you to the point

00:49:28.309 --> 00:49:31.130
of, here's what we're seeing. And because you're

00:49:31.130 --> 00:49:32.969
a critical thinker, because you're into performance,

00:49:33.429 --> 00:49:36.929
here are some of the behaviors we are seeing

00:49:36.929 --> 00:49:40.269
about you. Do you want to improve it or not?

00:49:40.369 --> 00:49:42.969
And then that really becomes your decision and

00:49:42.969 --> 00:49:47.050
the impact on it. I mentioned New Calm before.

00:49:48.590 --> 00:49:50.949
I think this is a beautiful example for you to

00:49:50.949 --> 00:49:52.909
look at that, go, okay, it's lower than I want.

00:49:53.110 --> 00:49:55.710
All right, well then, you know, go take a 20,

00:49:55.829 --> 00:49:58.590
30 minute New Calm session. You know, find it

00:49:58.590 --> 00:50:01.329
somewhere comfortable, put on a sleep mask, do

00:50:01.329 --> 00:50:03.650
this. This is equivalent of about 90 minutes

00:50:03.650 --> 00:50:05.889
of sleep. It down regulates your nervous system.

00:50:06.429 --> 00:50:09.119
You know, go. walk around the station get some

00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:11.840
daylight and drink some water and then and then

00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:13.880
see where you are again because i mean this these

00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:16.099
are all actionable things and we know that there's

00:50:16.099 --> 00:50:18.280
a way of up regulating or down regulating and

00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:20.619
sometimes it's just that and sometimes it might

00:50:20.619 --> 00:50:22.460
even be like you know what i mean if you're not

00:50:22.460 --> 00:50:25.949
doing well do you want to take half a day off

00:50:25.949 --> 00:50:27.750
and you know we'll get someone to cover for you

00:50:27.750 --> 00:50:29.309
today and therefore you know let's say you're

00:50:29.309 --> 00:50:31.650
driving again a million dollar piece of apparatus

00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:34.409
you don't have a horrible wreck and kill people

00:50:34.409 --> 00:50:36.570
in intersection because you you know you're barely

00:50:36.570 --> 00:50:39.269
awake so there's all these different applications

00:50:39.269 --> 00:50:42.300
from the like you said forging that that elite

00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:45.599
performance through to avoiding a disaster. So

00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:49.039
I think just having the ability to test your

00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:51.360
own cognition and see how you're feeling and,

00:50:51.380 --> 00:50:53.420
you know, does that match up with what it says

00:50:53.420 --> 00:50:57.420
that you're doing, especially as it learns you

00:50:57.420 --> 00:50:59.780
better as the AI starts getting deeper and deeper.

00:51:00.529 --> 00:51:02.570
Um, I'm sure there's a lot of trust then you're

00:51:02.570 --> 00:51:04.050
like, okay, I thought I was doing all right,

00:51:04.090 --> 00:51:06.610
but you know, I'm usually, uh, an 80 on this

00:51:06.610 --> 00:51:08.690
and I'm a 60 today. You know, what am I missing?

00:51:08.769 --> 00:51:11.010
Do I need to just, you know, go out of service

00:51:11.010 --> 00:51:13.269
to 30 minutes, do a new calm session and then,

00:51:13.289 --> 00:51:16.130
you know, jump back in again. So I think there's,

00:51:16.130 --> 00:51:18.170
you know, there's, there's so much power in,

00:51:18.230 --> 00:51:22.230
in, you know, understanding that there's a deficit

00:51:22.230 --> 00:51:24.869
or disconnect between how we perceive we're feeling

00:51:24.869 --> 00:51:26.929
and how we're actually doing as far as, you know,

00:51:26.929 --> 00:51:31.019
fit for duty. Yeah, and sometimes you have that

00:51:31.019 --> 00:51:33.619
external eye, that mirror reflecting on you and

00:51:33.619 --> 00:51:37.239
say, here's what we're seeing. Do what you want

00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:40.519
out of it. I think for a lot of people, especially

00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:43.659
in the fire department, you know a lot of the

00:51:43.659 --> 00:51:46.699
tools that people can use to improve themselves

00:51:46.699 --> 00:51:48.820
quickly for a few minutes to be able to do a

00:51:48.820 --> 00:51:52.199
task properly. I mean, if you get to a car crash

00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:56.000
and the victim is not doing well from just the

00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:59.260
trauma of having been in a crash. I've seen in

00:51:59.260 --> 00:52:01.380
firefighters, you know how to talk to these people.

00:52:02.019 --> 00:52:04.559
I mean, you don't get to someone who just got

00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:07.360
out of some sort of crash and come on, suck it

00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:09.179
up, Greg, you're fine. You know, just, you know,

00:52:09.179 --> 00:52:11.639
take the bus, go home. No, you are trained to

00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:14.219
help others. And really the idea is you have

00:52:14.219 --> 00:52:16.039
those tools ready. At times it's just a reminder

00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:19.320
of, hey, use those tools with yourself so you

00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:21.380
can be even a better version of yourself for

00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:23.699
your spouse, for your team, for everybody. Most

00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:26.019
of the time, it's if you take things early enough.

00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:29.539
you will be able to go a long way very quickly.

00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:33.320
Absolutely. Well, what about the macro level?

00:52:33.460 --> 00:52:36.440
So zooming out now, someone who's in a leadership

00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:38.559
position that's overseeing the whole department.

00:52:39.699 --> 00:52:43.159
Yeah. So for them, we do a few things. Because

00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:45.599
if you think about it, for leadership, it's a

00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:49.139
very tough equation they have to solve. I don't

00:52:49.139 --> 00:52:51.480
think there's a single leader that I've run into

00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:55.159
so far at any department that has not had to

00:52:56.519 --> 00:52:59.280
to bury someone from their team or from their

00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:03.139
teammates. So they're very, very aware of the

00:53:03.139 --> 00:53:06.280
issue. The challenge they have is at some point

00:53:06.280 --> 00:53:08.760
it becomes two dollars and cents. And how do

00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:12.000
you translate that into your budget, into operational

00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:15.420
decisions, into staffing decisions? And we're

00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:17.639
spending a lot of time helping them really in

00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:22.730
doing the math of readiness. Understanding that

00:53:22.730 --> 00:53:25.710
when their teams improve their readiness, there's

00:53:25.710 --> 00:53:29.150
a drop in overtime that's needed. It's a drop

00:53:29.150 --> 00:53:32.610
in absenteeism. It's a drop in the small accidents

00:53:32.610 --> 00:53:35.489
that you talked about. You're so tired, you back

00:53:35.489 --> 00:53:37.369
up that million -dollar truck into a wall because

00:53:37.369 --> 00:53:40.309
you were too tired to do it. And that's a tough

00:53:40.309 --> 00:53:43.150
balance. So to do this, what we do when we use

00:53:43.150 --> 00:53:47.269
the platform is that we give you aggregated data

00:53:47.269 --> 00:53:50.760
about... shift or your crews based on the size

00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:54.519
of the station are doing and the organizational

00:53:54.519 --> 00:53:57.679
topics they're talking about so you can start

00:53:57.679 --> 00:54:01.539
to think of it as a almost like as a game where

00:54:01.539 --> 00:54:04.460
here's a situation which tools are you going

00:54:04.460 --> 00:54:07.059
to deploy to improve the situation so it becomes

00:54:07.059 --> 00:54:11.199
very very dynamic and that's where that's where

00:54:11.199 --> 00:54:13.739
we can bring like results very very quickly for

00:54:13.739 --> 00:54:19.050
for those guys One of the key topics that I talk

00:54:19.050 --> 00:54:23.929
all about is the firefighter work week. And the

00:54:23.929 --> 00:54:27.110
example I give is the barista in Starbucks working

00:54:27.110 --> 00:54:29.849
40 hours a week. The firefighter that just did

00:54:29.849 --> 00:54:31.769
the scenario that I talked about with the child

00:54:31.769 --> 00:54:34.510
is working 56. And now we have a recruitment

00:54:34.510 --> 00:54:37.510
crisis because arguably we haven't fixed our

00:54:37.510 --> 00:54:39.329
working conditions and now they're working 80.

00:54:40.150 --> 00:54:43.289
I would assume in the hands of someone with some

00:54:43.289 --> 00:54:46.760
humility. That if they then start using the products

00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:50.059
and across the board, everyone seems to be below

00:54:50.059 --> 00:54:52.980
par, but then it would also be a great insight

00:54:52.980 --> 00:54:57.440
into maybe the need for a change of environment.

00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:00.000
You know, a fourth shift is usually what it is.

00:55:00.099 --> 00:55:03.599
So, you know, on a macro level, if people are

00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:07.679
constantly seeming to be, you know, tired, you

00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:11.480
know, under. uh, underprepared as far as, like

00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:14.159
you said, cognition, physicality, that if you're

00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:16.019
seeing it, you know, one or two people, okay,

00:55:16.059 --> 00:55:17.619
well then what's going on with their lives or

00:55:17.619 --> 00:55:19.380
in that station, or did they just have, you know,

00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:21.679
poor luck with the number of calls they have.

00:55:21.780 --> 00:55:23.739
But if you're looking at it across the board,

00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:26.360
then maybe there's a systemic problem that then

00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:29.960
needs to be addressed. You know, you're, you're

00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:32.860
spot on. And, uh, we're part of the, um, as we

00:55:32.860 --> 00:55:35.219
start our program and the lead, uh, the person

00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:38.369
who leads, uh, the firefight, uh, the fire. initiated

00:55:38.369 --> 00:55:41.610
within Esri as a former chief in Virginia. And

00:55:41.610 --> 00:55:43.929
he and I were talking about the other day, and

00:55:43.929 --> 00:55:46.090
he had that great line. I'm just going to read

00:55:46.090 --> 00:55:47.929
it to make sure I don't butcher it. But it's

00:55:47.929 --> 00:55:50.090
really, you know, the future for firefighters,

00:55:50.369 --> 00:55:52.610
it's that ability to integrate human readiness

00:55:52.610 --> 00:55:56.289
into the systems that guide operation, preparedness,

00:55:56.530 --> 00:55:59.630
and resilience. And it's exactly what you described,

00:55:59.750 --> 00:56:04.349
where right now we're looking at every single

00:56:04.349 --> 00:56:10.130
little bit of firefighting. in silos. And because

00:56:10.130 --> 00:56:13.269
we're looking at things in silos, we're missing

00:56:13.269 --> 00:56:16.090
a lot. And that's one of the big shifts that

00:56:16.090 --> 00:56:18.309
are going to need to happen, if anything, because

00:56:18.309 --> 00:56:21.090
as you describe it, the shortage is getting worse

00:56:21.090 --> 00:56:23.449
and worse. And at some point, something is going

00:56:23.449 --> 00:56:27.449
to have to give. Well, with the financial conversation

00:56:27.449 --> 00:56:31.150
as well, this is what's interesting. And it really

00:56:31.150 --> 00:56:34.840
blows my mind because you would think that Someone

00:56:34.840 --> 00:56:39.059
in a financial position, that being their job

00:56:39.059 --> 00:56:44.440
title, would be looking at the downstream wastage

00:56:44.440 --> 00:56:47.460
of money through people that you train that leave

00:56:47.460 --> 00:56:50.659
one, two, three years later. The overtime that

00:56:50.659 --> 00:56:52.559
you're filling at time and a half, not to mention

00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:54.539
the human cost of that, but that doesn't show

00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:58.809
up on a budget sheet. The lawsuits from... Tired

00:56:58.809 --> 00:57:01.650
firefighters making mistakes, the medical disabilities,

00:57:01.809 --> 00:57:03.590
the workman's comps, et cetera, et cetera, et

00:57:03.590 --> 00:57:06.690
cetera. We're talking tens, sometimes hundreds

00:57:06.690 --> 00:57:10.130
of millions of dollars. And so the false economy

00:57:10.130 --> 00:57:13.590
of doing it the same way has taken us to where

00:57:13.590 --> 00:57:15.530
we are now. But when people say, oh, we don't

00:57:15.530 --> 00:57:18.369
have the money, as you alluded to, a lot of these

00:57:18.369 --> 00:57:22.289
fitness programs, your technology, the healthier

00:57:22.289 --> 00:57:25.849
work week, there's really reallocation of funds.

00:57:26.679 --> 00:57:29.739
You invest it in the people, you know, at the

00:57:29.739 --> 00:57:32.179
front end and you will actually save money hand

00:57:32.179 --> 00:57:34.699
over fist down the road. But you've got to obviously

00:57:34.699 --> 00:57:37.579
invest in that change initially. But the savings

00:57:37.579 --> 00:57:40.519
that people will have, you know, 5, 10, 15 years

00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:43.639
later will actually allow you to then, you know,

00:57:43.659 --> 00:57:45.559
invest in even more things, you know, gyms and

00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:48.039
stations and mental health programs and, you

00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:51.159
know, all these other areas. So, like I said,

00:57:51.219 --> 00:57:54.190
the false economy is the... the term of how we

00:57:54.190 --> 00:57:57.769
got here. And it's having that courage to realize

00:57:57.769 --> 00:58:00.269
that the way we've done it isn't working. Let's

00:58:00.269 --> 00:58:02.409
take that money from downstream. Let's put it

00:58:02.409 --> 00:58:06.369
into a fourth shift, you know, okay. You know,

00:58:06.750 --> 00:58:08.909
fitness standards, et cetera, et cetera. And

00:58:08.909 --> 00:58:11.090
now you've, you've become a force multiplier,

00:58:11.090 --> 00:58:13.809
not just of stopping the crisis, but actually

00:58:13.809 --> 00:58:19.230
forging performance. Oh, spot on. And I know

00:58:19.230 --> 00:58:21.869
we have a firefighter friend in common, Mary

00:58:21.869 --> 00:58:26.590
Ballack, out of Florida. And I was talking with

00:58:26.590 --> 00:58:28.590
her one day and she said something which I did

00:58:28.590 --> 00:58:30.949
not think of, but makes a lot of sense. When

00:58:30.949 --> 00:58:33.849
you think about the early peer support group,

00:58:34.190 --> 00:58:36.929
they started and it was the same group of peer

00:58:36.929 --> 00:58:39.510
support who were trying to help each other. And

00:58:39.510 --> 00:58:43.670
then we all got older and our needs for... what

00:58:43.670 --> 00:58:46.110
peer support should be was moving with us getting

00:58:46.110 --> 00:58:48.510
older, you know, kids coming to the picture,

00:58:48.730 --> 00:58:51.389
relationship issues coming to the picture, moving

00:58:51.389 --> 00:58:55.550
around. And the peer at times had the tendency

00:58:55.550 --> 00:58:57.610
of losing track of those new people coming in.

00:58:58.429 --> 00:59:01.510
And you get into a program where, because you

00:59:01.510 --> 00:59:04.210
have the disconnect between incoming classes,

00:59:04.250 --> 00:59:07.730
which are also used to consuming technology differently,

00:59:07.929 --> 00:59:10.650
have very different interaction with their peers

00:59:10.650 --> 00:59:14.000
than they did just. 10 years ago, that's where

00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:17.139
that communication and knowledge gap is going

00:59:17.139 --> 00:59:19.820
to lead exactly to what you said. Bad budget

00:59:19.820 --> 00:59:22.980
allocation, bad long -term, everything. And when

00:59:22.980 --> 00:59:24.800
we work with those guys, that's where we really

00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:28.500
look at the platform. We're helping a chief or

00:59:28.500 --> 00:59:30.380
a leader who, let's face it, most of the time,

00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:32.380
they're very disconnected from operations, especially

00:59:32.380 --> 00:59:34.679
as soon as you have two, three, four stations,

00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:37.940
it's hard to keep track of how everyone is doing,

00:59:38.059 --> 00:59:41.820
let alone in the volunteer world. It's giving

00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:44.679
them the tools to be able to understand where

00:59:44.679 --> 00:59:46.719
their teams are at to make those budget decisions

00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:49.880
that you described. Because really, maybe for

00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:54.780
six months, you don't need to spend on, I don't

00:59:54.780 --> 00:59:59.000
know, on psychology services. But for six months,

00:59:59.059 --> 01:00:02.119
you need to double down on physical therapy services

01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:05.840
or whichever group to have that real -time understanding.

01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:08.019
It's going to help stretch your budget. It's

01:00:08.019 --> 01:00:09.760
going to make you much more attractive as well

01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:13.760
as a department when people look and consider

01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:16.920
where to go and work. Yeah. And I think this

01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:19.179
is another hidden cost or hidden saving, excuse

01:00:19.179 --> 01:00:21.400
me, that I've talked to a lot of people that

01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:23.900
have been in the profession. I got in just over

01:00:23.900 --> 01:00:25.920
20 years ago now. There's people obviously that

01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:30.059
have been way longer than me. When we were testing

01:00:30.059 --> 01:00:32.619
for the fire service, it was incredibly competitive

01:00:32.619 --> 01:00:35.550
and they were only taking the top. you know,

01:00:35.550 --> 01:00:38.230
in one of my departments, 1%, but a lot of places,

01:00:38.289 --> 01:00:43.010
you know, 10%, 15, 20%. So, you know, the chances

01:00:43.010 --> 01:00:45.889
of you having a well -prepared, fit, passionate

01:00:45.889 --> 01:00:48.250
firefighter are a lot higher. Now, as this has

01:00:48.250 --> 01:00:50.510
gone down and down and down, the chances of you

01:00:50.510 --> 01:00:53.070
hiring the wrong person that maybe is injury

01:00:53.070 --> 01:00:55.489
prone, that just simply doesn't have the heart

01:00:55.489 --> 01:00:58.550
for the job becomes a lot higher. And then there's

01:00:58.550 --> 01:01:01.219
a financial cost attached to that too. So by

01:01:01.219 --> 01:01:03.579
fixing the things that are a problem, by using

01:01:03.579 --> 01:01:06.199
the lens of performance and technology like yours,

01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.300
now, as we've seen in departments in Florida

01:01:09.300 --> 01:01:11.639
that have made this progressive change, now they're

01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:14.099
back to hundreds of people testing for a handful

01:01:14.099 --> 01:01:17.119
of jobs again. So even that, from a budget -saving

01:01:17.119 --> 01:01:20.420
point of view, you're getting better prepared

01:01:20.420 --> 01:01:22.900
candidates in the first place, and then you're

01:01:22.900 --> 01:01:30.269
coupling it with this performance lens. You want

01:01:30.269 --> 01:01:32.650
to find another word for perform, but your performance

01:01:32.650 --> 01:01:34.710
is, you know, at a much higher level now. And

01:01:34.710 --> 01:01:37.349
then your longevity and your wellness is tied

01:01:37.349 --> 01:01:39.590
into that, too. So you're saving on multiple

01:01:39.590 --> 01:01:43.869
different elements. Oh, and you're spot on. And

01:01:43.869 --> 01:01:46.369
it's amazing. I've had conversation with people

01:01:46.369 --> 01:01:50.190
on both sides. Matthew Thorpe runs was one of

01:01:50.190 --> 01:01:52.010
the leader of the Fire Academy on the East Coast.

01:01:52.090 --> 01:01:55.550
And Tyler Capron was actually one of our stakeholders

01:01:55.550 --> 01:01:57.989
because we do a lot of pilots with Boulder Fire.

01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:01.539
And what they're seeing as well, because you

01:02:01.539 --> 01:02:04.219
have that shortage, exactly the way you described

01:02:04.219 --> 01:02:05.860
it, you have more people going to the academy,

01:02:05.940 --> 01:02:09.440
but you may not get people who are really the

01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:12.840
right fit for the job. However, the reality is

01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:15.260
that it takes them three or four years potentially

01:02:15.260 --> 01:02:18.019
to realize they're not the right fit. So you're

01:02:18.019 --> 01:02:20.059
going to be investing a lot for that period of

01:02:20.059 --> 01:02:23.460
time. And in the end, you're back to square one

01:02:23.460 --> 01:02:27.460
and you have to go through. I think it was...

01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:32.340
Tyler was mentioning $175 ,000 to $100 ,000 per

01:02:32.340 --> 01:02:36.059
firefighter when you need to replace them. That's

01:02:36.059 --> 01:02:38.679
a huge amount in the budget. That's a huge budget

01:02:38.679 --> 01:02:41.960
line item to deal with. And if you could improve

01:02:41.960 --> 01:02:44.460
that, as horrible as it is, always bring it back

01:02:44.460 --> 01:02:48.760
to dollars and cents. It makes a lot of smart

01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:52.159
sense there. Absolutely. No, it is. I think this

01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:55.019
is what maddens me is the solutions are out there.

01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:58.539
And even the financial savings are proven. It's

01:02:58.539 --> 01:03:02.340
just deconstructing the myths that we've told

01:03:02.340 --> 01:03:04.679
ourselves, putting in the tools that we know

01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:07.719
work, and then trusting it. And like I said,

01:03:07.739 --> 01:03:10.119
some of the departments in Florida are now talking

01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:12.539
about the money they've saved and the sick time

01:03:12.539 --> 01:03:14.739
that's been cut and the retention that they've

01:03:14.739 --> 01:03:20.650
got. And like I said, the high level of... recruitment

01:03:20.650 --> 01:03:22.989
interests that they have now, the number of candidates.

01:03:23.190 --> 01:03:25.289
So yeah, I mean, this is where we were. Like

01:03:25.289 --> 01:03:28.690
20 years ago, we had so many people vying to

01:03:28.690 --> 01:03:31.010
be a firefighter and we can get back there. And

01:03:31.010 --> 01:03:32.849
I would argue the candidates were even better

01:03:32.849 --> 01:03:36.510
because as I've said, now these young people

01:03:36.510 --> 01:03:38.570
understand strength and conditioning. They understand

01:03:38.570 --> 01:03:41.150
accessory work and injury prevention and mindfulness

01:03:41.150 --> 01:03:44.130
and breath work and all these other elements.

01:03:44.170 --> 01:03:46.940
So you're good candidates. probably better than

01:03:46.940 --> 01:03:49.619
we were 20 plus years ago because they've got

01:03:49.619 --> 01:03:53.139
more tools. So leaning into that group of incredible

01:03:53.139 --> 01:03:56.400
men and women, it's exciting what the future

01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:59.860
of the fire service looks like. And now you turn

01:03:59.860 --> 01:04:01.380
it this way, it actually brings a good point.

01:04:02.639 --> 01:04:04.940
What's the reason why those people have the right

01:04:04.940 --> 01:04:07.460
tools? If you think about it, if you're into

01:04:07.460 --> 01:04:11.440
fitness, you can go on YouTube and you'll have

01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:14.130
all the videos in the world. to give you info

01:04:14.130 --> 01:04:17.289
on how to become a better power lifter or whatever

01:04:17.289 --> 01:04:19.449
you want. So you're talking about the generation

01:04:19.449 --> 01:04:22.630
that has grown up being used to being on those

01:04:22.630 --> 01:04:25.730
platforms to know how to improve themselves.

01:04:26.630 --> 01:04:29.949
And something, I'm part of the Fire Service Psychology

01:04:29.949 --> 01:04:31.929
Association, and they just had their meeting

01:04:31.929 --> 01:04:36.349
down in Houston a few months ago. And I remember

01:04:36.349 --> 01:04:38.469
going to a station. It was interesting because

01:04:38.469 --> 01:04:42.010
one of the older firefighters was saying, you

01:04:42.010 --> 01:04:45.650
know, it's weird. And back then, in between calls,

01:04:45.809 --> 01:04:48.869
everyone would be at the table talking and sharing

01:04:48.869 --> 01:04:52.170
information. Nowadays, people are spread around

01:04:52.170 --> 01:04:55.949
on their phone, oftentimes consuming information.

01:04:57.590 --> 01:04:59.949
So I love your point about saying they're better

01:04:59.949 --> 01:05:02.230
trained because they have been able to understand

01:05:02.230 --> 01:05:04.630
how to use those tools that are at their disposal

01:05:04.630 --> 01:05:08.909
to become better people. And the more departments

01:05:08.909 --> 01:05:11.150
that make that mind shift of the workforce has

01:05:11.150 --> 01:05:15.230
changed. the better it becomes to then bring

01:05:15.230 --> 01:05:17.469
the tools to make everyone better. And as a result,

01:05:17.530 --> 01:05:21.010
everyone's safer. Yeah. And then going to that

01:05:21.010 --> 01:05:23.550
dining room table, which is very important, as

01:05:23.550 --> 01:05:25.869
one of my guests, Dina Ali, talked about, the

01:05:25.869 --> 01:05:28.170
goal is to not have peer support anymore, that

01:05:28.170 --> 01:05:30.690
you just have a cohesive environment where you

01:05:30.690 --> 01:05:33.710
sit down at a firehouse table and everyone talks

01:05:33.710 --> 01:05:36.159
the way we should be talking to each other. And

01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:38.179
therefore, they're able to offload, whether it's

01:05:38.179 --> 01:05:40.980
their relationship problems or a call that they

01:05:40.980 --> 01:05:43.480
just had. But then you use the technology. Like

01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:45.739
you said, if I want to learn how to truly do

01:05:45.739 --> 01:05:48.639
an Olympic snatch, I can look on YouTube and

01:05:48.639 --> 01:05:50.860
find the world's best people coaching it now.

01:05:51.019 --> 01:05:53.760
You know, 20, 30 years ago, you had some QVC

01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:56.559
guy in spandex telling you that his... workout

01:05:56.559 --> 01:05:58.820
routine was the latest and greatest and more

01:05:58.820 --> 01:06:01.400
often than not you know he was lying to us all

01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:03.280
and had surgery that's how he actually got slim

01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:06.159
so now we have the real you know experts at the

01:06:06.159 --> 01:06:08.360
end of our you know fingertips we have access

01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:12.360
to these ai technologies like yours so then we

01:06:12.360 --> 01:06:14.320
can also then sit around the dining room table

01:06:14.320 --> 01:06:18.670
put some as you said some kind of um god what

01:06:18.670 --> 01:06:20.789
was the term you used and the safeguards anyway

01:06:20.789 --> 01:06:24.090
of our electronic use so that we can also lean

01:06:24.090 --> 01:06:26.630
into that human interaction and we create this

01:06:26.630 --> 01:06:28.869
conversation of performance which includes all

01:06:28.869 --> 01:06:31.349
the mental health tools all of a sudden there's

01:06:31.349 --> 01:06:34.110
not as much stigma around this conversation and

01:06:34.110 --> 01:06:36.630
you're not weak anymore you're trying to work

01:06:36.630 --> 01:06:38.809
on your performance so it completely reframes

01:06:38.809 --> 01:06:43.130
it and you know that that weak part always uh

01:06:43.130 --> 01:06:46.030
always smile when i hear it because um A, you

01:06:46.030 --> 01:06:50.690
know, we talked about the suck it apart and the

01:06:50.690 --> 01:06:55.050
extreme. But if you look at any high -level activity,

01:06:55.190 --> 01:06:58.510
any high -level sports, what do all these athletes

01:06:58.510 --> 01:07:00.590
talk about as to being the best in their field,

01:07:00.710 --> 01:07:07.150
their mental game? It's what makes the difference

01:07:07.150 --> 01:07:12.070
between, you know, average, good, great. That's

01:07:12.070 --> 01:07:14.699
all they talk about. And we have the tendency

01:07:14.699 --> 01:07:17.320
of thinking of, oh, it's a they problem, not

01:07:17.320 --> 01:07:20.860
an us problem. But it's very much the case there.

01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:24.719
Absolutely. Well, you've mentioned a couple of

01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:26.440
departments. Talk to me about some of the agencies

01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:30.619
that are using your platform. Yeah. So, Boulder

01:07:30.619 --> 01:07:33.179
Fire is really the one with whom we do the most

01:07:33.179 --> 01:07:37.880
pilots and get a lot of data back and information.

01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:45.739
Not just token, sorry to use it, a fire academy

01:07:45.739 --> 01:07:50.719
to do those things. And we have been able to

01:07:50.719 --> 01:07:54.559
get a lot of firefighters, especially on VSCOS

01:07:54.559 --> 01:07:58.059
under the leadership of Pete Burke, who's very

01:07:58.059 --> 01:08:00.460
much into technology, to give us feedback on

01:08:00.460 --> 01:08:04.960
the admin side of things. And we're getting a

01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:08.380
lot of usage and feedback from them. And what

01:08:08.380 --> 01:08:11.969
about on the military side? Military side, so

01:08:11.969 --> 01:08:14.570
we are deployed at a few squadrons where they

01:08:14.570 --> 01:08:18.470
use that in evaluation mode and in what they

01:08:18.470 --> 01:08:20.670
call semi -operational mode. So it complements

01:08:20.670 --> 01:08:23.569
their systems that have in place. What is interesting

01:08:23.569 --> 01:08:27.989
in the military side, and something we haven't

01:08:27.989 --> 01:08:30.310
talked about, is that the reason they're deploying

01:08:30.310 --> 01:08:32.130
us, that right now, if you're a pilot, and by

01:08:32.130 --> 01:08:34.050
the way, not just in military, aviation as well,

01:08:34.130 --> 01:08:36.350
sorry to scare everybody right now, but you're

01:08:36.350 --> 01:08:38.649
internally self -reporting your fitness to fly.

01:08:39.229 --> 01:08:41.170
And you have a score between zero and three.

01:08:41.949 --> 01:08:45.090
And the way it works is imagine you're around

01:08:45.090 --> 01:08:47.909
a group of five or six people and said, okay,

01:08:47.970 --> 01:08:49.710
so here's what we're going to be flying today.

01:08:50.869 --> 01:08:53.470
How many points do you want to report on your,

01:08:53.529 --> 01:08:58.170
you know, they call this human factor level between

01:08:58.170 --> 01:09:00.149
zero and three. Zero is great, three is bad.

01:09:01.850 --> 01:09:05.649
And what drives every leader crazy is that In

01:09:05.649 --> 01:09:07.810
like 20 years, they've never seen someone report

01:09:07.810 --> 01:09:11.010
more than a two, even after coming back from

01:09:11.010 --> 01:09:13.369
like night ops and non -stop flying back and

01:09:13.369 --> 01:09:17.550
forth across the globe. But what they found,

01:09:17.649 --> 01:09:19.609
and which for us was a big lesson learned and

01:09:19.609 --> 01:09:21.250
where the two already makes a difference, during

01:09:21.250 --> 01:09:23.109
those briefing, you always have the leader say,

01:09:23.350 --> 01:09:26.890
hey, I have an open door policy. You can come

01:09:26.890 --> 01:09:28.630
and talk to me anytime there's an issue you want

01:09:28.630 --> 01:09:32.199
to bring up. And I've heard this in a few briefings

01:09:32.199 --> 01:09:34.460
and I go to this leader and say, hey, off the

01:09:34.460 --> 01:09:38.000
record, how often does that happen? And it's

01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:41.399
something like, Greg, 20 years, maybe five times,

01:09:41.619 --> 01:09:48.220
10 at most. And that's the point I think, you

01:09:48.220 --> 01:09:50.239
know, to go back that you were making around

01:09:50.239 --> 01:09:53.079
leadership and understanding those generational

01:09:53.079 --> 01:09:57.380
shifts. Look, I would encourage any fire chief

01:09:57.380 --> 01:10:00.840
right now or any peer support. to log into Reddit

01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:04.180
and to go into the firefighting thread on Reddit.

01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:09.159
And you will see what the generational gap likely

01:10:09.159 --> 01:10:11.960
is, what people talk about, what they worry about,

01:10:12.100 --> 01:10:16.140
and why they do not report things to you the

01:10:16.140 --> 01:10:18.520
way you think they're reporting it. And it's

01:10:18.520 --> 01:10:20.560
that gap that creates all the problems in the

01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:23.430
world. And that's what I like about this. It's

01:10:23.430 --> 01:10:25.890
not your perception. Cause like I said, my perception

01:10:25.890 --> 01:10:29.430
of how tired I am 48 hours into a shift when

01:10:29.430 --> 01:10:31.890
everyone else has been there with me as I'm looking

01:10:31.890 --> 01:10:34.409
at them and I'm awake, this guy's asleep with

01:10:34.409 --> 01:10:36.289
his face in this coffee cup. So I'm doing better

01:10:36.289 --> 01:10:38.609
than him. But then you go on the app and all

01:10:38.609 --> 01:10:40.590
of a sudden it's like, James, you're a 46, you're

01:10:40.590 --> 01:10:42.930
an absolute mess. So maybe you shouldn't even

01:10:42.930 --> 01:10:45.010
drive home yet. Maybe you should go back in the

01:10:45.010 --> 01:10:47.850
bunk room after you've been relieved, take a,

01:10:47.850 --> 01:10:49.569
you know, like I said, a new calm session or

01:10:49.569 --> 01:10:52.319
a 90 minute nap. And then drive home. Because

01:10:52.319 --> 01:10:55.579
that's a big thing about this. And if you talk

01:10:55.579 --> 01:10:57.020
to a lot of people in the sleep medicine world,

01:10:57.100 --> 01:11:01.600
the cadres of special operations selection are

01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:04.479
known to drive off the side of cliffs on their

01:11:04.479 --> 01:11:07.180
way home. Because they're trying to sleep deprive

01:11:07.180 --> 01:11:09.060
the recruits, but they themselves are sleep deprived

01:11:09.060 --> 01:11:10.939
too. And it's the same with us. When we're driving

01:11:10.939 --> 01:11:15.550
home after 24, 48, 72 hours. I've had it where

01:11:15.550 --> 01:11:17.890
I don't even know how I got home before. Literally,

01:11:18.310 --> 01:11:19.789
they're taking the micro -sleeps all the way

01:11:19.789 --> 01:11:22.010
up. And that's so dangerous. And it's irresponsible,

01:11:22.109 --> 01:11:26.170
really, for us to be on a road like that. Yes.

01:11:26.250 --> 01:11:28.550
I mean, I heard the story like a gazillion times.

01:11:28.829 --> 01:11:31.250
And what I find even more interesting in your

01:11:31.250 --> 01:11:33.949
guys' field of work is that usually when accidents

01:11:33.949 --> 01:11:36.149
happen, you're the ones who come and help people

01:11:36.149 --> 01:11:39.149
who had those micro -sleep moments. So you really

01:11:39.149 --> 01:11:41.250
see the consequences of it if you think about

01:11:41.250 --> 01:11:46.470
it. I think it speaks a lot as well to that need

01:11:46.470 --> 01:11:50.229
of sometimes just having that external, totally

01:11:50.229 --> 01:11:54.229
unbiased system that tells you, hey, James, your

01:11:54.229 --> 01:11:58.090
family loves you, your spouse loves you. Take

01:11:58.090 --> 01:12:00.270
your 20 -minute nap, then get to them in one

01:12:00.270 --> 01:12:02.670
piece. It's much more important than getting

01:12:02.670 --> 01:12:06.510
back right now. Absolutely. Well, we talked about

01:12:06.510 --> 01:12:08.270
the kind of firefighter, then we talked more

01:12:08.270 --> 01:12:10.369
at the chief level. Are there any other areas

01:12:10.369 --> 01:12:12.029
you want to talk about as far as the application?

01:12:13.480 --> 01:12:17.020
Yeah, you know, it's the way we look really at

01:12:17.020 --> 01:12:19.659
the platform is the way you talked about earlier.

01:12:19.739 --> 01:12:22.640
You have all these different parties. And at

01:12:22.640 --> 01:12:25.060
some point, a therapist comes into the picture

01:12:25.060 --> 01:12:28.159
as well. For example, we're working with a group

01:12:28.159 --> 01:12:32.140
in Minnesota who do a lot of support for firefighters.

01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:35.039
We also have other therapists who are very much

01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:36.739
embedded within that fire service community.

01:12:37.279 --> 01:12:40.000
And the way we can help them is really twofold.

01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:43.699
The first one is as long as you as a firefighter

01:12:43.699 --> 01:12:46.960
want to share your data with a trusted therapist,

01:12:47.140 --> 01:12:50.180
for example, or coach, you can share that data.

01:12:50.279 --> 01:12:52.199
And we're finding that not having to repeat yourself

01:12:52.199 --> 01:12:55.260
all the time about a problem goes a long way.

01:12:55.760 --> 01:12:59.960
But also where there's a benefit is that at some

01:12:59.960 --> 01:13:04.079
point people need help. And unfortunately, as

01:13:04.079 --> 01:13:08.380
firefighters, you don't have access to the most

01:13:08.380 --> 01:13:10.949
effective help all the time. So you mentioned

01:13:10.949 --> 01:13:14.069
that story of not knowing how you got home, which

01:13:14.069 --> 01:13:17.350
I heard a lot. The other story that I heard a

01:13:17.350 --> 01:13:22.229
lot as well is, hey, I had a very impactful call

01:13:22.229 --> 01:13:27.590
that I went to debrief about. I went to our EAP

01:13:27.590 --> 01:13:30.109
-provided therapist, and then they ended up in

01:13:30.109 --> 01:13:32.430
tears, and I had to console them. And in the

01:13:32.430 --> 01:13:34.630
end, I helped the therapist, and no one helped

01:13:34.630 --> 01:13:38.569
me. And I will never go back to those EAP -supplied

01:13:38.569 --> 01:13:41.439
therapists. So that connection as well, that

01:13:41.439 --> 01:13:44.140
closing the loop, closing the gap goes a long

01:13:44.140 --> 01:13:45.699
way because you can't just tell someone they're

01:13:45.699 --> 01:13:49.640
not doing well. You need to be able to help them

01:13:49.640 --> 01:13:53.220
take the next step. I've heard those, what I

01:13:53.220 --> 01:13:56.600
call EAP, Russian roulette stories so many times.

01:13:56.920 --> 01:13:58.760
Occasionally someone is matched with the right

01:13:58.760 --> 01:14:02.739
one or their EAP is actually deliberately chosen

01:14:02.739 --> 01:14:05.340
where everyone on that list is culturally competent.

01:14:06.460 --> 01:14:08.699
I've heard that universally, you know, across

01:14:08.699 --> 01:14:10.899
the whole country numerous times. And it breaks

01:14:10.899 --> 01:14:13.680
my heart because these are the people that are

01:14:13.680 --> 01:14:16.359
still here despite that example, that experience.

01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:18.979
But how many people will never be able to tell

01:14:18.979 --> 01:14:22.779
that story because their one last I need help

01:14:22.779 --> 01:14:25.260
reach out moment was to the wrong counselor through

01:14:25.260 --> 01:14:28.199
an EAP. And they were like, all right, I am broken.

01:14:28.640 --> 01:14:31.020
The counselor was in tears and then they end

01:14:31.020 --> 01:14:33.560
up taking their own life. So this is something

01:14:33.560 --> 01:14:36.020
that we know needs to be fixed. And, you know,

01:14:36.039 --> 01:14:38.380
again, using technology like yours to see how

01:14:38.380 --> 01:14:41.199
you're doing and then having the access to hopefully

01:14:41.199 --> 01:14:44.420
the right kind of counselor. If you do kind of

01:14:44.420 --> 01:14:47.060
red flag on your app, this is another really

01:14:47.060 --> 01:14:49.420
important thing, because that whole if you're

01:14:49.420 --> 01:14:52.340
struggling, reach out, call me. Here's a number

01:14:52.340 --> 01:14:54.840
on the pin board. You know, we don't want them

01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:56.239
to get to the point of struggling because that

01:14:56.239 --> 01:14:58.399
point they're not calling anyone. They believe

01:14:58.399 --> 01:15:00.760
that they are the reason for everyone's pain,

01:15:00.939 --> 01:15:02.960
and they're just looking for a place to finally

01:15:02.960 --> 01:15:06.279
end it. So seeing that trending, as we say in

01:15:06.279 --> 01:15:09.619
medicine, of someone seeming to be doing well,

01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:12.220
and then every time they come on shift, they're

01:15:12.220 --> 01:15:14.659
a little bit lower, a little bit lower, you really

01:15:14.659 --> 01:15:17.020
have an opportunity, again, to get ahead of this

01:15:17.020 --> 01:15:21.659
way before it becomes critical. And to go back

01:15:21.659 --> 01:15:23.220
to a point you were making earlier, James, the

01:15:23.220 --> 01:15:26.579
idea of you're the financial guy, you're the

01:15:26.579 --> 01:15:30.079
number guy. In most departments that we talk

01:15:30.079 --> 01:15:33.159
to, when they hit like 5 % of utilization on

01:15:33.159 --> 01:15:36.319
their EAP, they're ecstatic, which means that

01:15:36.319 --> 01:15:38.180
they're still spending a lot of money on things

01:15:38.180 --> 01:15:41.359
that are not being used. Why aren't they being

01:15:41.359 --> 01:15:44.279
used? And that's also where I think the platform

01:15:44.279 --> 01:15:46.600
that we have, and I'm sure other people do similar

01:15:46.600 --> 01:15:50.659
things, there's a lot of value when, if I present

01:15:50.659 --> 01:15:52.520
a recommendation to you via the platform, say,

01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:55.560
hey, James, have you considered going to therapist

01:15:55.560 --> 01:15:59.500
A? And if your answer is no, because we're having

01:15:59.500 --> 01:16:01.760
a conversation, is then to ask you, why haven't

01:16:01.760 --> 01:16:06.119
you been there? Because sometimes it may not

01:16:06.119 --> 01:16:09.340
be that that person is not good, but it could

01:16:09.340 --> 01:16:11.739
be that that person lives too far or it does

01:16:11.739 --> 01:16:15.199
not match with your schedule or, or, or, or,

01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:17.880
or. But unless you have that understanding from

01:16:17.880 --> 01:16:20.439
a leadership standpoint, you're operating blind.

01:16:21.800 --> 01:16:25.880
And it would be like, you know what? We're not

01:16:25.880 --> 01:16:28.119
going to check the SCBA today and we're going

01:16:28.119 --> 01:16:31.039
to send people out. There's not a single chief

01:16:31.039 --> 01:16:33.899
that would say yes to that kind of madness. But

01:16:33.899 --> 01:16:36.279
the way we're doing the whole support around

01:16:36.279 --> 01:16:37.939
the human being, that's pretty much what we're

01:16:37.939 --> 01:16:41.899
doing. Absolutely. Well, for people listening

01:16:41.899 --> 01:16:45.199
then, where can they learn more about Okaya?

01:16:45.340 --> 01:16:50.199
Where can they try it out, do a test, etc.? Sure.

01:16:50.340 --> 01:16:52.800
So there are a few ways. Obviously, Okaya .me

01:16:52.800 --> 01:16:57.180
is the main landing point. We will be at FDIC

01:16:57.180 --> 01:17:00.579
on the Esri stand. So please come and say hi.

01:17:00.659 --> 01:17:03.060
Tell us you heard about the podcast. I'm sure

01:17:03.060 --> 01:17:05.619
James will want to hear about this as well. So

01:17:05.619 --> 01:17:08.880
we can pass the information along. And we have

01:17:08.880 --> 01:17:10.840
different programs where people can pilot our

01:17:10.840 --> 01:17:13.500
technology with a small group, which is what

01:17:13.500 --> 01:17:17.779
we recommend in general to begin with. And they

01:17:17.779 --> 01:17:21.149
can start to use the tool. At the end, if you

01:17:21.149 --> 01:17:23.250
know more about your truck and the state of your

01:17:23.250 --> 01:17:25.949
truck than you do about your team, then we definitely

01:17:25.949 --> 01:17:28.890
can help you and should be helping you. Absolutely.

01:17:29.609 --> 01:17:31.270
Well, I want to throw some closing questions

01:17:31.270 --> 01:17:34.270
at you before I let you go. The first one I love

01:17:34.270 --> 01:17:36.829
to ask, is there a book or are there books that

01:17:36.829 --> 01:17:39.270
you love to recommend? It can be related to our

01:17:39.270 --> 01:17:44.069
discussion today or completely unrelated. Two

01:17:44.069 --> 01:17:46.619
of them. And yes, I know I'm taking a bailout

01:17:46.619 --> 01:17:49.159
answer. I'll say two of them. One is actually

01:17:49.159 --> 01:17:54.979
a paper slash work from a lady named Carrie Lutie.

01:17:55.140 --> 01:17:58.680
She's in West Virginia. She's part of FSPA. And

01:17:58.680 --> 01:18:03.220
she has written a lot around the concept of dehumanization

01:18:03.220 --> 01:18:07.920
of the firefighter. And that idea of because

01:18:07.920 --> 01:18:11.220
we look at you as, or because those with the

01:18:11.220 --> 01:18:14.090
environment of superheroes. of the consequence

01:18:14.090 --> 01:18:18.069
of framing people as superheroes, especially

01:18:18.069 --> 01:18:21.489
when they retire. Fascinating stuff. Highly recommend

01:18:21.489 --> 01:18:25.569
it. So that's one. And the second book that I

01:18:25.569 --> 01:18:29.750
pretty much recommend to everybody is Shoe Dog

01:18:29.750 --> 01:18:34.149
from the founder of Nike. Because it's one of

01:18:34.149 --> 01:18:36.609
those books where you keep on reading it and

01:18:36.609 --> 01:18:38.329
you think you're just going to hear about the

01:18:38.329 --> 01:18:40.789
failure of a company. And then it says, and that's

01:18:40.789 --> 01:18:43.020
when I decided to start Nike. And actually, no,

01:18:43.140 --> 01:18:46.640
it's the up and down of building a business,

01:18:46.739 --> 01:18:50.239
building an operation, doing the right way to

01:18:50.239 --> 01:18:52.600
humans, making mistakes along the way. Love this

01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:54.840
book. Brilliant. I'm going to have to get it.

01:18:54.880 --> 01:18:57.000
I've had that recommended a few times. So sounds

01:18:57.000 --> 01:19:01.539
amazing. Yeah. All right. What about films, documentary

01:19:01.539 --> 01:19:06.489
or television? Any of those that you love? Oh

01:19:06.489 --> 01:19:08.350
God, well, you're talking to the kid who grew

01:19:08.350 --> 01:19:10.569
up with Indiana Jones and went to do Egyptology.

01:19:10.710 --> 01:19:15.470
So it's hard not to mention this one. No, there's

01:19:15.470 --> 01:19:18.090
one. Okay, there's one that I will put the blame

01:19:18.090 --> 01:19:21.789
squarely on my daughter named Murder in the Building.

01:19:23.130 --> 01:19:29.829
And what I really like in besides the story is

01:19:29.829 --> 01:19:32.149
really their ability of storytelling, but also

01:19:32.989 --> 01:19:35.390
the magic that happens when you bring a great

01:19:35.390 --> 01:19:38.710
cast together. And that often makes me think

01:19:38.710 --> 01:19:40.670
of, you know, when I coach or when you put teams

01:19:40.670 --> 01:19:43.529
together, there's a dynamic you need to have

01:19:43.529 --> 01:19:46.890
as a team. And those guys every season know to

01:19:46.890 --> 01:19:49.689
bring the supporting actors and the actors to

01:19:49.689 --> 01:19:51.710
work together and really elevate the product

01:19:51.710 --> 01:19:54.649
that average actors would not see. But again,

01:19:54.729 --> 01:19:56.710
having been in the studios and in Hollywood,

01:19:56.770 --> 01:19:58.710
you know how this thing worked better than ever

01:19:58.710 --> 01:20:01.310
will. Yeah, well, I did the live show. So maybe

01:20:01.310 --> 01:20:04.109
so I did the stunt shows in the theme parks.

01:20:04.189 --> 01:20:06.289
I didn't do much in Hollywood. But yeah, that

01:20:06.289 --> 01:20:09.569
was Steve Martin, Martin Short. And who's the

01:20:09.569 --> 01:20:13.109
singer? I forget her name. Selena Gomez. There

01:20:13.109 --> 01:20:14.789
we go. Yeah, yeah. I've watched a few of those.

01:20:14.850 --> 01:20:17.449
They were really good. All right. Well, the next

01:20:17.449 --> 01:20:19.409
question, is there a person that you recommend

01:20:19.409 --> 01:20:22.449
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to

01:20:22.449 --> 01:20:24.569
the first responders, military and associated

01:20:24.569 --> 01:20:28.189
professions of the world? Again, I think there

01:20:28.189 --> 01:20:31.149
are two trends in all the work that I'm doing.

01:20:31.310 --> 01:20:34.310
And I think that also relates to all the people

01:20:34.310 --> 01:20:37.109
that I've listened to in your podcast. It falls

01:20:37.109 --> 01:20:40.329
into the category of people who've lived the

01:20:40.329 --> 01:20:44.090
ugly part of firefighting and want to improve.

01:20:44.510 --> 01:20:49.369
And in that case, Alan Moody is one person I'll

01:20:49.369 --> 01:20:50.850
be more than happy to put you in touch with.

01:20:52.619 --> 01:20:55.119
When he did his presentation at the Fire Service

01:20:55.119 --> 01:20:57.199
Psychology Association, I think all of us were

01:20:57.199 --> 01:20:59.100
borderline in tears and went to give him a hug,

01:20:59.199 --> 01:21:03.260
not just for his story, but how it then impacted

01:21:03.260 --> 01:21:06.739
and made him follow a certain path. That's one.

01:21:07.199 --> 01:21:09.560
And the second part I'm always fascinated with

01:21:09.560 --> 01:21:12.100
is the concept of team dynamics. How do you get

01:21:12.100 --> 01:21:16.840
your team to perform in the middle of... of challenges.

01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:20.800
And one guy is, uh, Adam Krikorian, who is the

01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:23.739
head coach of, uh, the women's water polo team.

01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.060
And the reason I'm thinking about Adam is that

01:21:26.060 --> 01:21:28.939
in, um, during the Olympic games in Paris, they

01:21:28.939 --> 01:21:31.359
didn't get the outcome they wanted, but literally

01:21:31.359 --> 01:21:34.579
they had, um, they had people close to them,

01:21:34.619 --> 01:21:38.939
close to the team dying or close to, uh, or being

01:21:38.939 --> 01:21:42.340
in a, in a very bad shape. right around the games

01:21:42.340 --> 01:21:45.560
and how it impacted team dynamics and how you

01:21:45.560 --> 01:21:47.760
had to manage around this. He did an incredible

01:21:47.760 --> 01:21:51.279
job. Brilliant. They both sound amazing. So thank

01:21:51.279 --> 01:21:54.039
you for the suggestions. All right. Well, then

01:21:54.039 --> 01:21:56.159
the last question before we just kind of reiterate

01:21:56.159 --> 01:21:59.479
where people can find Okaya and yourself, what

01:21:59.479 --> 01:22:06.979
do you do to decompress? I like to run. Whether

01:22:06.979 --> 01:22:10.399
I like it or not, I have a hyperactive golden

01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:14.899
that I need to take care of when I'm not traveling

01:22:14.899 --> 01:22:18.279
and spending time with my kid. It's also a big

01:22:18.279 --> 01:22:22.239
one because you get to see a new generation,

01:22:22.359 --> 01:22:24.600
a new way of thinking, a new way of doing things.

01:22:24.739 --> 01:22:28.579
And it's good to have that shift at times in

01:22:28.579 --> 01:22:32.439
your mind. Absolutely. And you said it was okaya

01:22:32.439 --> 01:22:35.739
.me. If people want to learn more about you,

01:22:35.779 --> 01:22:37.479
where are the other places online to reach out

01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:40.659
to you? The best way to reach out is via LinkedIn.

01:22:40.920 --> 01:22:45.020
I'm at Gregory Marvial on LinkedIn. And you can

01:22:45.020 --> 01:22:47.699
follow my Instagram if you'd like, but it's mostly

01:22:47.699 --> 01:22:54.119
going to be pictures of airplanes and cool places

01:22:54.119 --> 01:22:57.319
where I get to coach some of the water polo teams

01:22:57.319 --> 01:23:01.119
that I'm helping. Did the fascination with airplanes

01:23:01.119 --> 01:23:04.670
come from... the work that you do now? Or was

01:23:04.670 --> 01:23:08.270
it there before? No, I always loved to fly. I

01:23:08.270 --> 01:23:11.010
was very lucky that my parents, being the only

01:23:11.010 --> 01:23:12.970
kid, always dragged me around in all their travels.

01:23:13.010 --> 01:23:16.289
So I flew very early on. And that ability to

01:23:16.289 --> 01:23:20.630
be in that medium was great. And one thing I

01:23:20.630 --> 01:23:24.729
wish I had more time and means to do would be

01:23:24.729 --> 01:23:28.569
to learn to fly instruments and do all this fun

01:23:28.569 --> 01:23:32.579
stuff. It's great up there. Beautiful. All right.

01:23:32.600 --> 01:23:33.960
Well, I want to thank you so much. It's been

01:23:33.960 --> 01:23:35.899
such an amazing conversation. Like I said, what

01:23:35.899 --> 01:23:39.399
excites me about this is it's already a product

01:23:39.399 --> 01:23:41.300
that's in the world of performance now. We're

01:23:41.300 --> 01:23:43.260
talking about where we need to be in the fire

01:23:43.260 --> 01:23:46.300
service. And as I've alluded to recently, if

01:23:46.300 --> 01:23:49.039
everyone's holding a rope and at the front end,

01:23:49.119 --> 01:23:51.659
you've got the high performers and the back end,

01:23:51.699 --> 01:23:54.279
you've got the people in crises. If you do the

01:23:54.279 --> 01:23:57.100
same things that we know work, everyone's still

01:23:57.100 --> 01:23:58.979
moving in the same direction with the rope. So

01:23:58.979 --> 01:24:01.220
you're pulling the people on the back end out

01:24:01.220 --> 01:24:03.619
of their dark place. And then if you keep moving

01:24:03.619 --> 01:24:05.300
forward, obviously you're getting into the world

01:24:05.300 --> 01:24:08.380
of high performance now. So I think it's a great

01:24:08.380 --> 01:24:10.340
conversation, but also an incredible product

01:24:10.340 --> 01:24:12.579
that I think the fire service really needs. So

01:24:12.579 --> 01:24:15.180
I want to thank you so much for being so generous

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with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. Hey, thank you so much. I really

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appreciate it, James.