Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name's James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
veteran flight paramedic and co -founder of the
Incomologists, John East. Now, in this conversation,
we discuss a host of topics, from his journey
into EMS, emergency medicine in the rural setting,
his transition into flight medicine, mastering
the basics, medical innovation. the importance
of life insurance, entrepreneurship, his own
experience with the 24 -72 work week, healthy
transition, and so much more. Now, before we
get to this incredible conversation, as I say
every week, please just take a moment. Go to
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you,
John... East. Enjoy. Well, John, I want to start
by saying thank you for taking the time and driving
over to the studio, aka my house. So for people
listening, where, if you were at your home, where
would we find you right now? I'm so glad I got
to hear that. I was worried doing this podcast
with you in your home. I wasn't going to get
the question, where on planet earth are we finding
you today? So if I wasn't here, I'd be home with
my wife, Leanne, and our two dogs, Darlene and
Trixie in Inverness, Florida. Beautiful. Well,
I want to start at the very beginning of your
timeline. So tell me where you were born and
tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,
what your parents did, how many siblings. Sure.
So I grew up on the mean streets of Homestead,
Florida, a small town just south of Miami. It's
actually not such a small town anymore. But I
grew up in the Florida Everglades in the wilderness
off the beaten path. Childhood was was fantastic.
It was an adventure. It was all outdoors and
for a reason. But looking back, you know, before
coming on to your visiting with you today and
having this talk, you know, I tried to kind of
compartmentalize like seasons of life and like
really. analyze them. And, um, you know, it was
interesting exploring childhood because it was
very much a dichotomy of, of awesome and, uh,
and awful, like all wrapped up into one. And,
you know, happy to explore that, uh, if you like
or not, but, um, mom was a nurse, career nurse,
uh, 40 plus years, um, doing bedside nursing,
hardest working person I've ever known. Uh, dad
was an on again, off again, uh, firefighter and,
um, and also boat mechanic, uh, growing up. When
I hear Homestead, I think of Johnny Mac, who
was one of the top guys in CrossFit, certainly
used to be. And he had an interesting story because
he was a lineman early on and responded to, I
think he lived in Homestead as well, if I got
that right, when Hurricane Andrew came through.
Do you remember that? And talk to me about that
experience, because that pretty much devastated
the entire city of Homestead, if my memory serves
me right. Sure. So, yeah, if Johnny Mac's from
Homestead, he would be the second best athlete
to ever come out of Homestead behind only me,
which is nothing for him. I did steal clean today
on social media. So there we go. Yeah, that was
a nice clean first one since shoulder surgery.
I'm pretty, pretty proud of it. But yes, I was
in Homestead for Hurricane Andrew. It was. You
know, it's interesting. As an adult now that
owns a home and has responsibilities, I understand
just how awful that was for my parents, how stressful
that was for so many families down there. I was
five or six. I was five when Hurricane Andrew
came through. The night of was terrifying. You
know, our home came apart with us in it. We had
to move from room to room as the roof kind of
got torn off in stages. But we survived, had
a few of the neighbors whose houses were completely
destroyed, migrated to our house through the
night. So that was terrible. It was terrifying.
Still remember it vividly. Even as a five -year
-old, there's like images and sounds that you
kind of hang on to. But after the fact, as an
adventurous five -year -old, it was pretty incredible.
We lived in a camper trailer in our driveway
for like a year. The army was coming around every
day. There was Humvees and Chinook helicopters
and soldiers giving out Oreos and bowls of soup
and sandwiches. So, you know, as a kid, it was
a lot of fun. But as awful as that sounds, but
as an adult now looking back and kind of unpacking
all of it, I mean, it was devastation. That town,
you know, I moved out of Homestead when I was
18. Hurricane Andrew came in when I was five.
And when I moved away from home, that place still
had not recovered fully from it. Mr. Rogers talked
about, you know, find the helpers in a situation.
What do you remember as a small kid? And then
what was some of the stories that you heard years
after that being a homestead resident? Sure.
Yeah, that's a great question. And that's a great
quote. I love that quote. And I do think of it
often. But yeah, it really did. I mean. So this
may be an interesting intertwining of topics
here, but my dad growing up was a really gruff
dude, not really like overly friendly guy. He
was kind of a mean guy. But I mean, that night
there was like no question, right? We heard neighbors
shouting for help. You know, he went through
the door open and, you know, called them over.
You know, they came to the home. And from that
point forward, it pretty much, I guess we had
a. a much more collaborative relationship with
all of our neighbors and everybody truly did
pitch in to help each other out. Um, you know,
I've seen that in, uh, in much less acute, um,
you know, uh, things that have happened through
the years, even as an adult. And, uh, it's all,
it really is. Um, you know, I, I don't know what
the word for it is, but you know, I don't know
if it's validating or affirming, uh, when you
see people that would otherwise just. Not let
each other in in traffic, but something bad happens.
You see the good come out of people. I think
this is the message that we should be hearing.
And I hope that the through line of this whole
podcast has been community and kindness and compassion
and service. And there was that, you know. thrown
around, make America great again. So, yeah, you
can. Absolutely. And it's already there. It's
just nurturing that. And we see it. Everyone
says, I missed 9 -12, for example. You know,
you look at... I'd say Katrina wasn't the best
of examples because there was good and bad highlighted.
But so many of these natural disasters, when
you hear stories from boots on the ground, that's
what you hear. Neighbors being neighborly and
the religion and the skin color and the people
that they sleep with is irrelevant. They're just
Americans. And I feel like we've had that kind
of hijacked from us. Yeah, I agree. This kind
of calls me back to a recent podcast you did
with Rob Jones when you two discussed. you know,
being a citizen versus a civilian. Um, you know,
that one, that one spoke to me and I rewound
that and listened to it a few times. Um, but
that's ultimately what you guys are speaking
to there, right? You know, find a way to contribute
and be, be a citizen in your community. Um, this
is also another thing is, but this is number
115 of about 3000 things I've, I've learned from
my wife, Leanne. Uh, but she showed me how to
truly be a supportive. contributing friend, family
member, and just, I guess, community member.
Um, and the first time I really saw this was
when we had somebody close to us lose a family
member. And, you know, for the longest time I
had always, you know, reached out like, Hey,
I'm so sorry to hear that. If you need anything,
let me know. Right. Happy to help. She was the
first one I ever saw when we, um, we had someone
close to us lose a family member. She, uh, she
shot me a text to let me know and said, I'm going
to start making a meal. Can you take it over?
Like didn't ask, didn't ask what they needed.
She's like, take it over there and then find
a way to help while you're there, you know, find
something to do. There's something you can do
to help. So, uh, yeah, yeah. And I do think that's
in, in keeping with the spirit of your show for
sure. Having listened to a bunch of your episodes.
yeah rob was amazing that's the second time he's
been on the show we climbed the one world trade
together say we climbed i wasn't allowed to use
my fire gear so i kind of got to be in just gym
shorts and two working legs and he bear crawled
a hundred plus floors all the way up to the top
so you talk about humility that's uh it's a humbling
experience you mentioned before the comment some
of your charter was awesome some was awful if
you want to expand on that Sure. When I graduated
high school, I couldn't get out of Homestead
fast enough for a number of reasons. One, in
high school, when I started nearing the end of
my time in high school, I really started looking
around. For as long as I can remember, my track
in life was I was going to graduate high school
and be a fishing guide. It was going to be great.
I was going to do what I love, love fishing,
get paid to do it. And, you know, at a point,
I don't think with any, like, concerted thought
or effort, just kind of organically looked around,
looked at the landscape around me. And, you know,
the aspirational place to land for someone in
Homestead back then was a job with the county,
you know, doing whatever, animal control, whatever
it was. A job with the county has benefits. Or,
you know, working at the cement plant. And I
realized I was like, that's that's not for me.
I want something more. I don't know what it is,
but for that reason alone, I'm out. But also
growing up, you know, like I said, if you asked
me to, you know, paint my childhood with a broad
stroke, you know, and wrap it up in one thought,
it was awesome and it was outside. But that's
now, you know, for the longest time, my association
with back home was very dark. Just kind of a
gray haze. You know, everything outside the house
was fantastic. But growing up inside the home,
there's always a lot of tension. You know, my
dad was a habitual drinker. You know, he was
not overly kind most of the time. He was definitely
not kind to my mother or my sister. And just
the overall dynamic was very, very negative.
And, you know, I couldn't escape that fast enough.
It really, again, in exploring my own thoughts
and exploring my life before coming in here to
sit down with you, I realized most of my 20s,
late teens and 20s, was me just searching for
what it means to be a good man. You know, and
you always start first. It's like, let me find
one and then I'll just emulate them, you know,
fake it till you make it. And then I got hired
really young to work rescue. And I looked around
and I was like, man, there's some really good
and some really bad examples all wrapped up in
one here. But, you know, I spent most of my 20s,
you know, looking for that, you know, and I was
very, very fortunate to find that in a number
of people. And even I found that. in a person
that I didn't really realize what I had in an
example of just being a good human, uh, before
I even left home. And, uh, I don't know if I'm
going off trackiness, carry on point. But in
high school, there was a, um, one of the school
bus drivers at my high school guy named Al Campbell.
Uh, he looked, he looked like every painting
of Jesus you've ever seen. Right. So like long
unkempt, like dirty blonde hair. a big gray beard,
and he wore flip -flops. He was the hippy -dippy
school bus driver. And he was my best friend's
school bus driver. And one day, my best friend,
Pat, growing up, he told me, he's like, hey,
you got to come check this guy out, man. He's
wild. So he also happened to be the youth pastor
at the local Presbyterian church in Homestead.
So I was like, okay, let's go. Went and met this
guy, and he was wild. He lived an entire life.
Before he, you know, found his his footing in
religion and started walking that path. So he
wasn't, you know, as a, you know, kind of wild,
adventurous kid that wasn't looking for, you
know, wasn't looking to be proselytized for sure.
He was someone I could relate to. And now looking
back, I can see he he saw where we were and knew
knew how to get in touch with us and meet us
where we were. And, and keep us out of trouble
and kind of give us some motivation and a nudge
in the right direction. But he's the one that
got, he's the guy that got me into surfing, which
ended up being a huge part of my life. Uh, not
so much anymore, just cause of proximity to,
uh, to a servable beach. But, um, he had a great
example there. I just wish I'd have exploited
it for, for more, you know, when I had it, but,
uh, you know, I had, I had a few other, like
just awesome men that I was able to latch onto.
you know, at like formative points in my, you
know, early adulthood that, uh, and I learned
a lot from, and I'd still carry that stuff forward.
Did you ask Al what he did in the past? Cause
if he said carpentry, maybe it was actually Jesus,
even more crazy. I believe it. No, he, um, I
do know he spent, he spent some portion of his
life just basically living on the beach, I believe.
But, um, Yeah. Awesome guy. I haven't spoken
with him in years. Um, I'd love to reconnect
with him, but, uh, but yeah, you know, I, you
know, most of my twenties I spent was, it was
looking for that, you know, and then I started
kind of sort of figuring it out, you know, it
was like, had this track and I was working rescue.
It's like, okay, I'm going to do my 30 years
and I'll retire. You know, it's, it's, I got
a real job, you know, making some money. Um,
you know, I was in a prior relationship at the
time. I was like, all right, we got this thing
figured out, you know, we're going to work this
job and save up enough by house. you know, white
picket fence, barbecues in the backyard, you
know, the whole nine. And yeah, you know, that
ended, that relationship ended badly. And I did
end up in a dark place. And one of the things
I was hoping to talk about today was just mental
health in general. You know, I have my own story,
but we've also seen tragically, you know, far
too many colleagues and friends and people close
to us, you know, lose their struggle with mental
health. you know, at their own at their own hand,
which is which is tragic because I've I've been
there and, you know, I kind of went back and
forth on whether or not I wanted to touch on
this. But, you know, if I know who at least some
portion of your audience is and, you know, if
this can be of value to any of them, you know,
I am happy to to explore it. But, you know, I've
been there, you know, I've been to the end of
my rope. And I've been at the highest you can
be and everywhere in between. So I'll kind of
just float that one out there to you. Happy to
go wherever you'd like with that if you'd like
to go anywhere with it. Yeah, no, I would love
to. But let's roll the clock back first. You
mentioned about obviously some of the negativity
in your life seemingly coming from your father.
Did you know his parents? Was there that generational
indication there? Sure. So I knew my grandmother.
Well, I knew my father's mother well. My grandfather
died just before I was born, so I never got to
know him. But I heard of him, and he was a short
-tempered man as well, by all accounts. Very
successful man with a cool story. He was a photographer,
apparently pretty renowned. Did some really cool
stuff there. But yeah, speaking to your question,
he sounded mean, and I think my dad really took
after him. Well, you mentioned about finding
yourself in the world of rescue. Was that fire
rescue? Was that a different kind of rescue?
Yeah. So I and my entrance into rescue is fire
rescue. This whole world was really interesting
and random, too. So first, I'll I'll answer your
question. So, yeah, I my first job and he and.
Fire Rescue was working for the smallest county
in the state of Florida, Union County. It was
a fully volunteer fire service with paid EMS.
So I got hired as a single cert paramedic in
a county that had two rescues. Talk to me about
your EMT paramedic school experience. Oh, that
was fantastic. So when I left home, I wanted
anything but to be a firefighter. And the reason
for that was I got pushed so hard. A lot of family
worked in the fire service. My dad, again, on
again, off again, but he worked in the fire service.
And they all said the same thing, like, 24, 48,
you're going to love your job. You'll never work
a day in your life, this, that, and the other.
And I was a kid that knew better. I was like,
you guys are idiots. I'm going to go get rich
doing something, and I'm leaving. So I left,
you know, went off and started college. I started
a history major because that was my favorite
subject. And I ended up landing on political
science because I didn't really know what I wanted
to do. But I did decide, I was like, well, I'm
pretty good at arguing. Like, let's go that route.
I'll be a lawyer, right? And along the way in
Gainesville, Florida, I met some pretty incredible
people that happened to work for the fire service.
And, you know, they're guys, you know, a handful
of years older than me. They were cool. You know,
they're buff, big jacked up trucks. And, you
know, they told me they work for the fire department
and they love it. And all the ladies want them
and, you know, all the all the great things,
you know, very, very, very much presented themselves
as the rock stars that they were in their own
world. But I was like, hey, I'm in. There's actually
a lot shorter track to get to that, too. So it
kind of brought me around to it. So I went to
EMT school because of. the timeline to when the
next fire college cohort was going to start.
So I went first responder school, then EMT school.
And in EMT school, I really did develop an affinity
for the EMS side of things. So I was like, I'm
going to just go straight to paramedic school.
Always with plans to come back and do fire college
and be a firefighter. But after paramedic school,
I needed a job. bad. It was competitive back
then. So I applied any and everywhere within
any kind of feasible driving distance. And I
got a call, got a call from James Goody Goodwin
in Union County, Florida. And so we want to offer
you a job or we want to bring you in for an interview.
So I went and interviewed, got hired and it,
you know, I, I wish there was a path where I
could have worked there for an entire career.
You know, my life took a different course and
I didn't end up staying, but man, especially
now where I am in the EMS world, uh, flying the
experience I got there, the folks I got to learn
from there, you know, I got hired into a group
of guys that had all been there for forever,
right? It was tight, small circle, and you had
to earn your way in, right? It was very much
sink or swim questionably. I mean, the, the,
you know, ethically questionable, you know how
they did it, but it wasn't out of hate, right?
It wasn't out of hate or hazing or anything like
that. It was just like, Hey, we're a tight circle.
We know it. You've got to earn your way in like
sink or swim. Let's go. What are some of the
stories of that? razor edge being navigated,
seeing as we're sitting here after a big national
news story broke out of the arrests after a hazing
incident here in Marion County. Sure. So it wasn't
so much hazing. There was a little bit of that,
right? It was more, you know, hey, new guy, go
do this. Hey, new guy, go do that. Like, hey,
guess what? You're washing all the rescues this
morning and we're going to have breakfast. So
there is some of that. But I think it was not
unhealthy. It's a crucible. Right. And I think
there was merit to it. And honestly, I'm glad
to have experienced that. No, the sink or swim
component came more. This is arguably worse,
but more on the actual call side of things. Right.
Like as a baby paramedic working in a rural EMS
service, you know, 45 plus. minutes from the
nearest real hospital from the nearest trauma
center you you had a heavy weight on you to perform
right you couldn't fake it you weren't five minutes
from a hospital you couldn't just throw them
in an ambulance and go you had to treat people
and you had to treat people well was this uh
pre or post gps technology so this was post gps
technology pre union county catching up with
that Oh, okay. These are, these are map book,
like pulling out the map book days. Um, yeah,
we used to have to ask dispatch for directions.
They would give it to us and we'd give, be given
landmarks, right? Like. Do you know where the
tree is that so -and -so flipped their tractor
three years ago? Literally. That's how England
is. There's no north, south, east, west. If you
drive in England, everything's all squirrely.
So it's literally that. Find the big oak tree
and turn left at the post office. Then you're
going to see a letterbox. I don't know how they
did it back then, but Hialeah, we still didn't
have MDT's directions or anything. Now I have
to go to Jackson on a trauma call. I'm a brand
new guy. I've never even been in South Florida
before and navigate that. Willie, I forget his
last name now, Guerrero. No, anyway, screaming
at me, screaming at me. You're going the wrong
way, up this way. So yeah, for anyone that's
never had to drive emergency calls without GPS
technology, I have so much admiration for that
generation. I got to kind of just skirt it before
we got into MDTs that told you how to go. Sure.
Yeah, no, we still had paper charts to the bubble
sheets. We had to handwrite them. But yeah, you
know, I'm glad to have experienced that as well.
You know, um, it is almost like a, a badge of
honor of sorts. It's like, you know, you kids
don't understand. I was around before all this
technology, but, um, I guess that's, that's indicative
of me turning into that guy in a sign of age.
But, um, no, it was very much, uh, when, you
know, as a baby medic orienting, uh, with the
County, I got paired with a more senior medic
and, um, you, you were not. You're not going
to get much help. Right. It's like, hey, this
is what you're going to experience. So show us
that you can hang with it or not. And the thought
process was like you can go deep into the weeds
on any of these clinical topics, any disease
process, you know, any acute injury or condition,
whatever. You can go as deep into the weeds as
you want on any one of those. But there's something
to like, can you treat sick people or not? And
that's what they were trying to filter out. Right.
That's what they're trying to weed out. And,
you know, once you, I guess, showed a certain
level of proficiency of resilience, ultimately,
you know, then they'd really, you know, they
took me under their wing, showed me the ropes,
taught me so much. And, you know, I appreciate
those guys for it. I do things a bit different
in my training role, but I do try to keep some,
you know, echoes of that baked in for sure. I've
kind of seen that as well. You know, there's
some crews I've experienced in the past where,
yeah, the rookie has to clean everything while
they all sit down. And the best crews I've been
with are like, no, we're all clean together because
you need to then do, you know, closed cab compartment
checks and tests and go pull a hose and throw
ladders. Like, we don't need you cleaning cars.
We need you learning how to do the job. And I
always respected that. Yes, there's a point where
the rookie should be first to the dishes and
up first to make the coffee and all these things.
But if they're just doing all the housework,
how the hell are they going to get any better
at their job? Yeah. And they certainly let me
jump right in on weekly evening poker too and
took all my, I say all my money, what little
money I did have. Were you a medic by that point?
I was. Okay. So was it? Two person on the rig,
EMT driver and a medic in the back? Yep, so it
was EMT medic configuration. There was two rescues
for the entire county. I think the population
of the entire county back then was like 17 ,000
or something like that. I haven't seen numbers
on this, but that has to be the highest per capita
sick county in the state. We were busy. And again,
we're really far from any hospital. But yeah,
it was an EMT medic configuration. The fire service
there was 100 % volunteer. And those folks that
staffed that volunteer fire service are some
of the best, highest quality people I've ever
met in my life. They're getting nothing from
it. That that department has zero support, you
know, from a monetary standpoint coming from
above them. You know, I can speak to these things
now because I don't work there anymore. But the
county commission was not supportive of emergency
services out there at all. So these folks were
legitimately volunteering because it was there.
Again, you know, you talk about being a civilian
versus a citizen. They're citizens just out there
doing right by their community. Um, and they'd
respond to medical calls in the middle of the
night, you know, when, when you needed, you just
needed an, you needed an extra pair of hands
in the back. Right. With, with just a sick person.
Yeah. There's nothing fun. It wasn't a structure
fire. It wasn't something sexy that they could
take a selfie and put it on the internet. Um,
they're just good people that were volunteers
and I have so much respect for that. And I, I
got to see a lot of those guys for the first
time in like 15 years last weekend. Oh really?
You know, sadly I was at a funeral, but man,
it really, um, it was a really cool touchstone
to go back to, you know, go back there, see those
guys catch up with them. Um, and you know, to
speak to the quality of the humans, these are
folks I haven't seen in 15 years. Every single
one of them, I was, I was met with a hug. You
know, we're just pretty incredible and nostalgic.
And, you know, as sad as the thing that brought
us together was, I really enjoyed catching up
with them. The person that you lost, was that
one of the rescue side team? So it was a former
co -worker in that county's son actually passed
away in a car accident. Awful. Yeah. So you talked
about two rescues in an entire county. Before
we move on, what were some of the idiosyncrasies
of that kind of dynamic that most of us in the
municipal world wouldn't even understand? Sure.
So first is a lack of resource, right? Like there's
going to be one medic on most calls, right? So
as the medic, you know, I'll speak to that because
that's what my, you know, the seat I sat in when
I was there, you know. From a clinical patient
care standpoint, it's all on you, right? You
got plenty of helpers, usually, you know, folks
that are happy to jump in and proficient with
what they do. But directing a course of care,
you know, decisions, do we stay, do we go? You
know, that can be an incredibly difficult decision.
And that's like the simplest base level. Um,
so I guess, uh, speaking to idiosyncrasies, that's
the biggest one it's on you and you can't fake
it because you're so far from hospitals, right?
Like you, you, you can't just, you know, a neb
and a blanket isn't going to work. You have to
treat people and you got to treat people well,
or it's going to show and how it shows is bad
outcomes, you know, that you're responsible for.
So, you know, it's funny exploring that. Um,
I hated that job for probably the first year,
year and a half I did it. And the reason I hated
it was because of how much pressure I put on
myself to perform. I was like constantly just
nickel and diamond myself with scenarios. You
know, what if I see this and I don't know what
to do? And what if I got to intubate somebody
and I can't get the tube in and we can't ventilate
them and they die and it's all my fault, you
know, and this poor person's family is going
to suffer because I wasn't prepared. I would
lose sleep over it. I hate it. Like I loved it.
But I hated it at the same time. And then, you
know, at some point, you know, there's usually
junctures you can point to where you have a super
sick patient or some noteworthy high acuity call
that goes well. And, you know, you kind of latch
on to that. It's like, OK, you know, maybe maybe
I do have it figured out enough to survive. And,
you know, at some point way back when, you know,
there you can't really point to it on a timeline,
but I really did start enjoying it and thriving.
And, you know, wanted at that point in my life,
you know, I wanted to take that route as far
as I could, which is ultimately what led me to
to leave Union County and then ultimately pursue,
you know, a flight career. I have the same exact
thing. You know, I used to. be terrified sometimes
when certain kind of calls will come in like
pediatric calls that one of our at um it's orange
county as well but certainly in reedy creek one
of the guys that we have on the medics is also
a nurse in um i forget the name of the hospital
now but a pediatric hospital so you know that
kind of person obviously probably wouldn't have
felt as uncomfortable but you know a lot of us
we don't treat you know big big emergent calls
on children normally so like you said pediatric
intubation and getting the drug doses right used
to get my heart through my throat but that's
because you care that's because you actually
you know hopefully are a good emt or a good medic
but what i've been reflecting on recently is
we do a very bad job in the emt and medic school
world of setting us up for failure when it comes
to our expectations because if you take the mega
code for example you know they go into the first
rhythm you treat it you defibrillate whatever
it is okay now they're brady okay now you give
atropine etc etc okay congratulations normal
sinus you got a pulse and so they always live
if you don't fuck it up but that's not the real
world you know what four percent You know, I
think it's something like that, depending on
where you work. And I've been the grim reaper
my whole fucking life. Like I haven't saved a
single person that's been in full arrest ever
in 14 years, including on a plane as a bystander
a couple of years ago. That one didn't make it
either. So I've got hands of death. But that's
just, you know, the luck of the draw. In this
case, the bad luck of the draw. It's not that
I was a bad medic. It's not that I did all these
things wrong. It's just that they were GI bleeds
and they were triple A's and they were, you know.
that just weren't going to come back to life
again. So I've put this to a few people. I think
in our training and in megacodes and in final
exams, et cetera, we should have scenarios where
you do all these different rhythms, you give
the drugs, you give the electric therapy or whatever
is needed, and they die and they say, that was
amazing, good job. And you're like, what? You
did everything right. They still die because
that's what happens in the real world sometimes,
or more often than not. So don't look at that
as a failure. And I think that would then bake
in when we go out into the real world that every
time that you're doing a full arrest, of course,
you're trying to save that person. But there's
a likelihood that they're not going to survive,
you know, especially if you have the kind of
career that I have, you know, whereas I see all
these people, you know, the code saves and they
come to the station the next week with a cake.
None. but that's all right. Because again, you
take your job seriously, you do it right. You
gave that person every chance. But I think it's
a, an interesting, you know, question for the
EMS world is like, why not bake in scenarios
where you congratulate a student on, you know,
successfully performing everything that they
should have, but the outcome still being death,
because that's what's going to happen when they
get out there. Yeah. So, you know, I fully agree
with that. And I'd also say that, you know, there's
much as much of an onus on, you know the senior
guys out there uh to to do the same right and
on the job training you know Keep an eye on your
junior guys that are going to wear every bad
outcome. They're going to wear that heavy. It's
going to weigh on them. They may not show it.
They're likely not going to tell you, man, I'm
really sad and I feel awful about that. If they
did, great. Take it and run with it. Have that
conversation. But most of them aren't going to
tell you. If you're paying attention, you'll
see it. So that's on us, the more senior people,
to look out for that and also do our best to
prepare folks. for perceived failure, at very
least, if not real failure. So in the Union County
career, what are some of the career calls that
you remember? Sure. Yeah. So there were a few.
So the most noteworthy is probably we had a,
you know, it's a small community. Everybody knows
everybody. And as with most small towns, you
know, there's a handful of, you know, notable
families, right? And, you know, distinguished
people. One of those people was murdered as part
of a is actually a shooting spree that a man
that worked for him went on through the county.
Like he started in one place, which is basically
on one end of the county, worked his way through
the from one end of the county to the other,
shooting people in sequence that, you know, with
with intent. He had people he was looking for
to shoot. So working rescue that day. We just
started with one. I was up at a wellness check,
I think, north end of the county, and a gunshot
wound page went out in town, in Lake Butler.
So we cleared that call and started heading to
it, and we had probably a 15, 20 -minute drive
just to get back to town. That's how remote and
spread out this county was. And on the way, more
and more pages kept going out for just like sequential
gunshot victims to where it turned into like
a legitimate, like you learn in EMT school, like,
Hey guys, is the scene safe? Like what's going
on? You know? So we got with, with the sheriff's
department, um, you got with deputies and we're
like, Hey, are we safe to proceed in there? Like,
we don't know what's going on. Yeah. It was,
it was pretty chaotic, but I think ultimately
six people ended up, uh, shot, uh, including
the shooter. Once he was once he had satisfied
his literal list of people that he had set out
to shoot, he shot himself and he was actually
the first patient we responded to. Yeah, we responded
to these just how the calls came in. Geographically,
we responded to him in like reverse order. But
yeah, so. We ended up, my team and fortunately
the other rescue that was on that day, they were
on their way back to county, so they were able
to respond as well. But yeah, we signal sevened
a few and then transported two to the hospital
and ended up living. Two in the same rig or two,
one in each rig? Yeah, sorry. No, one in each
ambulance, but two of the entire event, two patients
were transported and lived. Crazy. So talk to
me about that. You've got this scene that's unfolding.
PD doesn't seem to understand fully as far as
whether it's safe or not. What were the decisions
made to get to those patients? Sure. That's a
really good question. And for me, I was the senior
guy on that day. And I was probably four years
in. So I was still a junior guy in the grand
scheme of things. Even though before that call
rang out, I was riding high. I'm in on the totem
pole. Yeah, we we basically just we responded
to people. We had to triage it from ambulance.
Right. So we're getting as much information as
we can. And we ultimately just responded to incident
locations. We responded to scenes geographically,
like which one are we closest to? Let's go there.
Then to the next one. You know, we put out a
request for mutual aid, which out there was was
hit or miss whether or not it would be answered.
But we did have deputies. able to make access
to patients and give us, you know, some semblance
of a report. So we did our best to triage. Um,
and, uh, and, and ultimately sequentially over
the course of probably an hour, um, as sad as
that is, you know, we made it to our first patient
that wasn't dead and, um, you know, started in
at that point, there was two left. We had two
units available. So we each took one treated
and transported to the trauma center. So that
was Union County. Where did you go next and what
made you transition? So after Union, I left Union
County to move right across the river, right
across the county line to Bradford County, Florida.
And the reason I did that was I had decided that
I wanted to take my EMS career as far as I could.
Right. And that meant pursuing a job as a flight
paramedic, ultimately. And Bradford County was
operating at a higher level. Um, from a standard
of care standpoint, um, they did more training,
they had more resources and I would have more
access to one, one of the men I mentioned earlier
that ended up being a huge influence in my life.
Uh, Dr. Pete Giannis, uh, he was the medical
director for, uh, Bradford County, um, uh, virtually
lifelong. resident of the county that everybody
knew. He had a primary care office as well. Everybody
knew Dr. Giannis, but on the EMS side, he like
lived and breathed EMS. I mean, he was there
at the station every day. He was available. He
was constantly training with the folks working
for him. And I just wanted exposure to it. I
wanted exposure to that. I wanted to learn from
him, learn from them, learn how to do the job
better. Again, facilitate my goal of maximizing
my career in EMS. What did the training look
like to transition from ground paramedic to flight
medic? It's actually an interesting question.
On the flight side, we train less frequently,
but more intensely. When I worked in Bradford
County, we had mandatory paid monthly training.
You're going to train every single month, clinical,
logistics, operations, the whole nine. But heavy
emphasis on the clinical medical component of
it. And we got really, really good. We were really
good at the job. And I still say it. I fly all
over the world, really. We have fixed wing capability
at the program I work for. That's one of the
best run, highest functioning EMS services out
there. And I say that with a heavy dose of pride
because I, I worked there. Right. And I, I got
to, I can say I came from it, uh, from Dr. Giannis,
but I guess to your question on the flight side
of things, we do all of the same training and
then just take it layers and layers deeper. Right.
So clinically we're going to explore each condition
deeper, right? We're going to have more tools
to treat each thing with. We're also going to,
train and we do train outside of the typical
just paramedic scope because we do function as
an extension of the hospital system that owns
the helicopter program and they like to market
us as being able to bring the icu to you and
that's very much true there's not much we can
there's not much we can't do in the helicopter
that a provider in any er or icu couldn't do
short of, you know, full on surgical procedures.
Uh, but with that, another thing we do is we
train the basics hard, right? And we go, we do
a lot of, um, collaborative training with different
hospitals, different EMS agencies. Uh, the most,
the most frequent request we get from EMS agencies
when we engage to, uh, to do collaborative training
with them is they all want to airway training.
And, you know, we show up and I think, I think
most of the EMS agencies out there, when we first
walk through the door, they're expecting us to
have some groundbreaking high speed, you know,
newfangled high tech airway management techniques
and tools. And while some of that's true, there
is an element of that. You know, what I tell
every single one of them, it's like, Hey guys,
innovations are stressful, right? It's like a
stressful thing. It's scary. You know, especially
the hard ones that you know are going to be hard.
There's only one track that's going to take.
all the stress out of your innovations almost
instantly. And that's when you reach the point
that you feel confident that you can BLS ventilate
any human you come across. And that's what we
train. And that's what will make you better at
innovating, right? Is knowing that like, Hey,
if I can't get this tube inside their trachea,
like no sweat, we can still ventilate them, right?
Less than ideal. We still ventilate them. So
that's a bit in the weeds there, probably more
than you were looking for. But I guess to go
back to your question, we train less frequently
just, you know, off of availability, really.
And I'm sure funding to an extent. But, you know,
we train less frequently, but more more concertedly,
I'd say. I think if you listen to any high -functioning
teams, I hear it from the SEALs, you know, the
Green Berets, the SAS. It's the basics that they're
drilling, you know, because, again, as they say,
also you fall to your level of training. And
I'm, you know, removed a little bit from the
fire service now, but there's this whole, like,
Insta -famous. borderline narcissistic element
to the fire service now where every man and his
dog is filming themselves doing a forcible entry
prop or duck walking spinning the hose which
i still don't understand you know just freaking
crawl and grab it and you know you could put
the fire out but um That being said, the more
of that that you seem to need to justify your
existence, the fewer times you're just pulling
the cross lay. Well, like you said, using a BVM
and an MPA or, you know, things that, you know,
you know, then, OK, I can fall back to that.
And it reminds me when I was a medic student
here. Great crew. But we had a call and it was
a wellness check, well -being check. And this
poor lady had been on the floor of her home for
three days. her tongue was in the you know it
just filled the entire space but she was still
all the vitals are normal sat in at 98 you know
blood pressure was good pulse was good um and
the the choice was made by the actual medic to
intubate and again i was thinking well why don't
you know if she's doing well now then you literally
do high flow monitor the the airway and then
you know obviously if things change then you
adapt but um so They ended up, you know, paralyzing
her and then putting a king tube in because you
couldn't intubate. It was a three, is it Malampati
scale? I forget the term, but big tongue scale.
And this poor woman, then we get to the ER and
one of those horrendous, arrogant type ED doctors
waltzes in. pulls out the freaking toolbox of
intubation tools there's blood coming out the
tube he can't get the tube and it all would have
been avoided if like you said in that particular
one okay we probably need you know a glidoscope
and the anesthesiologist you know someone who's
in the perfect environment you know she's not
you know decompensating or anything she is stable
at the moment Just put a BLS airway in, you know,
ventilate if you have to. But I mean, she's probably
just going to need that and, you know, a normal
breather. But by, like you said, deviating from
the basics, I don't know if that woman. Now,
she might not have lived regardless, but the
treatment she got made it worse, not better.
And I think that's such an important thing that
you hear from from your profession, from these
high level warfighters, is they're not doing
the freaking Shaolin Kung Fu version of they're
just getting really good at the most basic things.
And then, you know, as you build your experience
and you have a bigger toolbox and you're exposed
to more calls, oh, we could try this, too. But
if you don't know how, you know, how to decide
when not to intubate. That is, I would argue,
one of the most important first questions for
yourself. I fully agree. I mean, one of the signs
of mastery is knowing when less is more, right?
So, yeah, I've seen that. And I'll go back to
what you kind of mentioned briefly there in passing,
this social media craze and this look at me in
my sexy uniform. We get that in the aeromedical
world too. And I won't reference where specifically
I work, but if you end up one of my orientees,
And I catch you taking selfies and posting them
all over Instagram when you're orienting with
me. We're going to talk. I mean, this is a humble
profession. And they say the term silent professionals
in the military. And there's no reason to be
silent. If you're silent, you're not going to
change things. If you're silent, people aren't
going to learn and challenge the norm and innovate,
etc. But there's a difference between being humble.
And, you know, what we're seeing now. And I've
said this on here so many times. When I see a
picture of a crew leaning on their pipe poles
in front of someone's burnt out home that was
full of all their memories, you know, the paintings
on the fridge and their kids' toys and the things
they put in the attic from generations before.
And all you're thinking is about, well, I need
this for my Facebook page or my Instagram or
my TikTok. Absolutely. If a PIO takes pictures,
the paper takes pictures of you fighting the
fire, 100 percent. Find somewhere away from their
home and take a crew picture. Amazing. But have
some fucking consideration for these people.
You know, the car behind them, you know, their
teenager died three days later. You know what
I mean? We've got to hold ourselves accountable
for that part, too. I agree. You know, but at
the same time, it's a dangerous game to play,
right? Like, if you don't find humility yourself,
it'll find you. You know, those tend to be the
less proficient, less hard training, you know,
taking the job less serious than they, you know,
take themselves. You know, they will be humbled,
unfortunately, sooner or later. What about skills,
innovations that you have on the helicopter or
the plane that we don't have as a regular ground
paramedic? Sure. So mostly redundancy for everything.
right? You know, vasoactive drugs, vasoactive
medications, suppressors, you know, on, on rescue,
you may have epi and levophed or, or epi and
dopamine, something like that. We're going to
have six or seven of them. Yeah. So we'll have
different options, which allows us to, to fine
tune, you know, with more accuracy for more specific,
you know, patient sets. We do have more tools,
more fun stuff to play with. Even though, like
I mentioned, we hard focus on the basics as hard
as anything else, we do have the sexy stuff too.
We start arterial lines. We start central lines.
We carry and place chest tubes. Managing airways,
we're going to have more redundancy there. We'll
have more ways to do that. I am glad to see the
EMS world, fire rescue world, follow suit and
catch up in this regard. But we've had video
laryngoscope technology for a long time, whereas
most ground EMS programs haven't. But I do think
they're catching up in that regard. So, yeah,
basically more redundancy, more options for any
given thing and more procedures, I guess, just
the ability to operate on a slightly higher level.
How do you become proficient at some of those
skills like chest tubes? Is that ER time at that
point? Yep. So the program I work for is really
good at giving you in -hospital orientation time
just to do procedures and get skills in. It was
elective when I was hired, but it's mandatory
now. They have a much more robust, structured
orientation process, you know, and for good reason.
Um, so you do get training, you do have, uh,
proficiencies you have to maintain. So, um, training
throughout the year, you'll be checked off on,
you know, performing procedures on a mannequin,
you know, on an innovation, whatever, uh, simulating,
but you do have to maintain a, uh, you know,
a certain, whatever predetermined look back.
So a three month or a six month look back. to
having one of those procedures, right? So if
I haven't started an arterial line in six months,
I turn into a pumpkin and I get sent to the ER
or to the OR and have to go actually do that
procedure on a human. It's the same with airways,
same with all the invasive procedures we do.
You're, you're held to a standard, but it's also
expected that you hold yourself to a standard.
And if you don't, if, if you don't Also hold
yourself to a standard that's somewhere above
the bar, you know, that's set. You're not going
to last long. Yeah, I think that's that's the
conversation and we'll get to work weeks next.
But this is this is the thing is a lot of times
when there's any conversation, the fire service,
there's either. Well, it's all the administration's
responsibility or it's all the firefighters responsibility.
And the answer is. Yes and yes. It's the both.
It's on us to be proficient. It's on us to be
fit. It's on us to be well -rested. And then
we can control that, especially with the rest
on our days off. And that's on us. Are we going
to bed properly? Are we drinking alcohol till
four in the morning? That's our part that we
own. But then also, is the environment that we
work in setting us up for success? Is the union
fighting fitness standards or are they holding
us as tactical athletes like they should? And
that's an environmental thing. So when you've
got a... fired up first responder arguably from
a competitive hiring system as we both experienced
you know 20 plus years ago who's then in a good
environment that lifts them up you know Gainesville
Pasco would be good examples at the moment now
you're going to have that perfect storm of you
know of positive elements that's going to just
give you great firefighters and paramedics Yeah,
fully agree with that. And I love, you know,
you mentioned a few certain departments that
are, you know, have recently or were in the near
past switch to a 2472 shift structure. And that's
fantastic. You know, and that's something I can
definitely speak to having worked fire rescue
on not a 24 worked fire rescue where I was getting
mandatory twice a week. So it was 48 on one off
48 on forever. Just in perpetuity, like never
ended, just constant beatings one after another.
So I know how that goes. I know how that wears
on a body. I know how that wears on a family.
I know how that weighs on mental health and just
what it does to people and families and communities
and the quality of service that any given department
is providing. Right. It cuts against that. On
the air medical side, we've been on 24 -72s for
a while. I've been working them for 12 years
now, and it was around before I entered this
world. Night and day difference. I hope you don't
mind me taking liberty to speak to this a bit.
Please. Anyone listening knows this is my favorite
topic, so go ahead. Yeah, well, let's go there.
We'll explore it. From my seat. So my last few
years working rescue, probably my last two years,
I was noticing changes in myself, right? Like
changes in my affect changes in my general attitude.
I started noticing physical changes. You know,
one day I'll never forget. I don't know what,
I can't give you the date, but I remember the
moment I was at work back end of a 48. So back
off of a 48, it was busy. I used the restroom
and when I was washing my hands, I looked at
myself in the mirror. And it just like, it hit
me. Like I looked like dog shit. I looked terrible.
Um, like physically I looked bad, right? It was
gone. It bags under my eyes. I looked older than
I was. And it was in that moment where I was
like, man, I really got to speed up the timeline
here. And I did. So I really kind of went, you
know, full steam ahead, uh, pursuing a flight
position and, uh, had to interview twice. Uh,
but I got it. And it was night and day difference
overnight in a few ways. And then there was some
lag in some other regards. So what caused the
lag was that first year I told you about working
AMS, how I hated the job that started over again.
Like I had all that new guy stress. What if I'm
not ready? What do I need to do to prepare myself
for this job? You know, oh, my God, I'm working
with people that are all better than me. I'm
going to be exposed, you know, imposter syndrome.
All those things. But once I, you know, kind
of found my footing, found my stride and settled
in, having that extra day off legitimately in
115 different ways changed my life for the better.
Right. I looked better. I was better rested.
I was in a better headspace. I had more time
with my family. And now looking back, being able
to take stock, I mean, it showed in so many ways.
Also, I can speak to the function of the organization.
Folks aren't getting mandatory on the flight
team. Yeah, there'll be a shift that they're
looking for coverage here and there. But there's
usually somebody willing to pick it up because
everybody's not. beat into the dirt, you know,
um, we have four shifts they're staffed and we
don't go out of service for staffing. Um, so,
you know, any, any of you, I'll also speak to,
you know, the counties that haven't adopted this
yet. You know, again, like I mentioned earlier,
we do a lot of collaborative training with EMS,
with EMS programs, fire rescue programs, schools.
Um, This is recent, too. This was within the
last month. We went and did an LZ safety class
with one of the local fire rescue slash EMT first
responder colleges in our area here. And the
class I was speaking to was a class full of EMTs.
It was probably 30 students. And I was chopping
it up, you know, talking to all of them, asking
them all the questions. And they're like, hey,
what are your goals? Where do you want to go?
You know, where do you want to end up? Have you
applied anywhere? What are you thinking? And
I kept getting atypical answers to that setting.
Like usually you hear the three big departments
right in this general immediate area. But no,
I was getting consistently getting answers for
counties that were hours away. You know, counties
that are on like the bottom half of the state.
And, you know, so I started asking, I was like,
hey, are you from there? And they're like, no,
but they're on 2472s. And that made me so happy,
so happy to hear. Because when I came into this
world, the fire rescue world, it was competitive.
Like I applied, I interviewed many places before
I got an offer, before I got an invite to actually
sit down for an interview. And whatever your
first offer was, you took it. You know, you took
it and ran with it and held on for dear life.
So I'm glad to see that the landscape is such
that these young folks coming into the profession,
one, have the ability to curate where they want
to work first. And two, that they have the awareness
to factor that in. So I'm going to speak to two
groups of people right now, if you don't mind.
Please. So first, anyone out there that's looking
to go this track. So if you're looking to be
an EMT, paramedic, firefighter, work in the air
medical world, work in the hospital, wherever.
Please, if there's one thing you take from this
podcast, do not sell yourself short. You have
time. Find the place that's going to be the best,
healthiest. place for you to land right like
do that you know and that may be the first place
you interview but it may not just don't rush
to jump in and if you have to take that first
job just keep your head up keep your eyes on
the horizon and pay attention to yourself because
these these jobs will beat you down they will
take from you without giving back and without
caring how you're doing right And I, you know,
I have another opinion to share on that. If you
bring me back to it at some point in the future,
and this is what I'm going to speak to what we're
doing at the incomeologist, but so any, um, anyone
aspiring to, to join any of these professions
that we're speaking to, please bear that in mind.
You do have a choice. You do have a say, and
you definitely have a vested interest in where
you land too. Um, I'd also like to speak to all
the leaders out there. Um, I understand this
is, uh, you know, likely perceived as a paradigm
shift or, you know, there's, it's a big change,
right? It's a big change to consider, but it
will serve you well to consider making this change.
The data sets out there, James spoken to it ad
nauseum, the, the, the data supports, it's not
empiric anymore. It's not just a concept that
sounds good. This, this will be a positive for
your team. It'll be a positive for your. whomever
you're serving, city, county, hospital, you know,
patients, whatever, it's going to be a benefit
to them and it's going to be a benefit to you.
And if the positive incentive isn't enough, your
hand will be forced because the landscape is
such to where folks are able to choose where
they want to work. Take that for what it's worth,
the grain of sand coming from a lowly flight
paramedic. But I've been around long enough to
see the landscape change. And in some ways, I'm
thrilled with what I'm seeing. In other ways,
I'm horrified. That's a really powerful perspective,
especially coming from the 2448 world. When you
started seeing this shift, when you were looking
in the mirror and seeing an old man looking back,
after how many years, how many years have you
had on? at that point that was probably eight
years in exactly of a potentially 25 30 year
career so this is this is the point it's not
like you said it's irrefutable on the science
side it's irrefutable on the neighboring departments
that we've had that have gone i was just talking
to pasco county's president again today and it's
just unending success from morale to now they're
negotiating pay because they've got the good
work week now it's like okay well how can we
put some things in that will then factor into
you know as people top out and that kind of thing
that we can get it back because they gave up
a lot of the as they were talking to me he was
telling me you know the top end stuff was kind
of given away to attract people by making starting
pace better well if you attract people with a
healthy and working environment now you can go
back and help the air quotes old guys more where
you know you can top out a higher level and you
can go to your county on your city and say well
look we saved you millions by all this overtime
that's gone away And people say, you know, but
we've paid for all these new firefighters. Yes.
So if your schools, for example, the walls are
about to explode because you had so many students
and a terrible student to teacher ratio. And
one day someone said, well, we're just going
to build a new school. We're going to invest
in our community and put a new school. And now
we have another entire building full of great
teachers that now we can spread the kids around.
They're going to get a better ratio, better education
versus. Those four schools, you know, about to
explode and just paying overtime to the teachers
to fill the spots that, you know what I mean?
It's not even apples to apples. Like you've invested
in another entire shift of firefighters for the
same money or less money than you were bleeding
with this crisis that we have. So, you know,
I agree completely. And we were talking before
we hit record. I have a lot of people that have
recently said, well, I don't want my kid to become
a firefighter. And I tell them, no, they should.
It is the greatest calling in the world, which
is why seven years after taking the uniform off,
I'm still having conversations like this. Because
what you learn in the fire academy isn't the
work week. It's the job. What you learn in EMT
school or medic school and flight medic school
is the job. Who you work for dictates the working
environment. So work for a good department, not
a bad department. with a courageous chief or
courageous union president that will fight for
you and make sure that your working environment
gets you home to your kids as much as possible.
And when you are at work, that you're a high
-performing, fit paramedic, firefighter, whatever
your goal is. And just to your point, if you're
coming out of the Florida Fire College, for example,
in our town here in Ocala, and someone says to
me, where should I work? I'm going to tell them
Pasco or Gainesville. Hands down. Because they
are four shifts, fully staffed. You know, they're
getting these veterans in all these classes now.
So even, you know, their new hires have got years
on the job. That's who you want to be around,
full stop. And so, yeah, if you are resisting
this movement, and as I said, which really nauseates
me, and I'll underline it again. You are from
the generation that created this crisis in the
first place and you go home at five o 'clock
every night and you sleep well knowing that your
men and women are getting mandatory and there's
cancer and there's heart disease and there's
suicides and divorces and you're unwilling to
make the change, then step aside and let a real
leader in. Because as I've said many, many years,
you can be the person who turned the ship around
and be the hero of your own story. Or you can
be the person that went down with the ship. You
know, you caused the ship to fail. So who do
you want to be? Because one of those two is coming.
And if you don't change and all these young people,
these fired up, you know, firefighter EMTs and
paramedics are going to these good departments,
you think you have a recruitment crisis now?
Just you wait. Yeah. Amen. I want to move forward
to the entomologists, but while we're on the
flight medic, we talked about your perspective
as far as what you want in the airframe. For
us on the ground, what's some advice that you
would give the MTs, the paramedics, to set you
guys up for success as far as patient transition?
That's a really good question. The first thing
I'll speak to is safety. That was a big shift
when I went from ground EMS to air medical. there's
a safety culture, right? Legitimately and for
good reason. It's much more dangerous to fly
around in a helicopter. You know, a million moving
parts are all moving really fast and it's like
kind of pure magic what actually makes the thing
fly. But where I'm going with this is to your
question. It's we are largely... Reliant on whomever
is on the ground, wherever we're going, to keep
us safe. Especially if it's an austere scene,
it's not a pre -designated landing zone or somewhere
that's already been given the papal blessing
as safe to land there. We'll come get to you,
for sure, but we're relying on you to make sure
we're not going to land on a power line or there's
not something on the ground that we can't see.
I guess one piece of advice I'd give is don't
assume because you on the ground can see something
that we can see it. We likely can't. Everything
looks different from up there, and everything's
a lot smaller. So hyper -communicate. Ideally,
you'll have radio contact between the helicopter
and whoever's LZ command or scene command. Just
hyper -communicate any and everything you see
that you think may be a factor that could affect.
The safety of us landing and getting in and out
of a helicopter. We got it from there. The more
patient information you can give us early, the
better we can prepare. But I would just stress,
think safety, and then we'll get a patient report
once we get there. We didn't really talk about
the... first responder kind of nursing dynamic
as far as your marriage and family. So before
we move to the incomeologists, talk to me about
what your wife does a profession. And then let's
talk about the dynamic of that over the last,
you know, several years that you've been together.
Sure. So, um, so my wife, Leanne, uh, she was
a flight paramedic as well. Uh, she retired,
um, year before last after 24 years in clinical
healthcare. which is wild for me to say because
it's indicative of my own age. But it's also
wild because you look at her and she looks like
10 years younger than I do, which isn't fair.
And it's exclusively why I do CrossFit and go
to Iron Legion Strength and Combat. But, you
know, speaking to our careers, she actually still
worked rescue PRN when I was at Bradford County.
So that was the first time we worked together.
you know it's really interesting i never worked
with you know a partner before a spouse and um
we actually did work rescue together a few times
you know schedule slipped through the crack you
know we were kind of like should we say something
like no let's do it and those are probably the
most stressful shifts i've ever had Because of
the pressure to perform, it's like, man, I really
got to perform in front of this chick. It was
pretty early in our relationship. But just broadly
speaking to our parallel career paths and being
together and married through them, it's been
a lot of good and a lot of bad, too. But mostly
good. The pros to marrying someone in the same
field, I would say there's a mutual understanding
of the demands of the job. Um, the mutual, you
know, the understanding of when one of you experiences
something impactful in a negative way, or even
a positive way, the other, your partner understands
what that means. Right. So you are able to dial
in and really look out for each other, you know,
and there's, there's one call in my whole career
that like really, really hit me hard. And, um,
you know, kind of took me to a dark place for
a while. And honestly, I couldn't imagine. like
kind of working through that one without Leanne
and without her understanding what that call
meant and like what it did to me, you know, how
it weighed on me. So, you know, mutual support,
mutual understanding. We were able to sync our
schedules up pretty early in my career, the flight
team, and she was working in the same flight
team. So we on a 24, 72 hour schedule, we had
three out of every four days off together. which
just opened the world up to adventure and maximizing
our time together, which we still do. It's our
overarching priority in life. Every macro decision
is based on maximizing our time together, which
is fantastic. And while we were both working
in this world, owe a lot of that to the career.
There's cons, too. You know, work -life creep.
It's hard to separate the two. And, you know,
interestingly, we're working together, the incomeologists
now, too. So kind of same dynamic there, but
from a different angle, you know, with a different
flavor. But, you know, separating work life and
non -work life can be a real challenge. It can
lead to, you know, a hyper focusing on the negative
aspects, you know, the downsides to the job,
the gripes. It can lead to ruminating, you know,
to an unhealthy degree. And, you know, you just
hope that one of you, you know, you switch off
like who's going to be the one that kind of pulls
us out of this rumination cycle. But there's
that. And then also this is a bit tongue in cheek,
I guess. But, you know, having intertwined professional
relationships can oddly be difficult to navigate.
Right. So I used to speak at a lot of conferences
and I kind of throttled that back because I am.
I kind of prided myself on like making noise.
You know, if I was speaking at an EMS conference,
I was going to throw some darts at the medical
director sitting in the back of the room, you
know, like let's ruffle some feathers and, you
know, prove me wrong, you know, but, uh, at a
point, you know, I, I realized that I'm also
representing Leanne, so I may have to put a plug
in it. I can relate by the way. Yeah. But, um,
yeah, yeah, yeah, you certainly can. But, uh,
But also, you know, seeing, you know, through
through these fields, you'll meet some of the
best and some of the worst humans, you know,
and I've found that everywhere I've worked. You
know, you'll meet the best and worst people you've
ever met in your life in the same place. And,
you know, there there there can be a degree of
toxicity in any culture. And there certainly
is. some degree of toxicity in the air medical
world. And, you know, I will speak to Leanne's
experience here, you know, and I'm not speaking
for her. It's her story to tell. But I had a
seat at that table, and it affected me as well.
So Leanne, I'll try to condense it to the short
version. Leanne had a long and really successful
career. And toward the end of it, she was offered
a leadership position at a program that Not the
program she worked for. So she left to start
up an air medical program across the state. Went
and stood that program up, was gone for three
-ish years, and then came back to the original
program that she had been working for at the
time. But she came back to that program on a
different team within the program. And it was
a team that had a reputation for being a boys
club and didn't want her there from before day
one. that was made clear. So she really fought
an uphill battle. She had been around, she's
mature enough to know like, okay, I'm just weather
storm, keep my head down, do the job and whatever.
But she ultimately ended up getting bullied,
you know, for for about two years, in a really
ugly way. That was incredibly disappointing for
me. And it was a real, a real difficult one for
me to unpack and work through. Because you have
these like conflicting interests right and conflicting
things that you know layers of responsibility
and also accountability right because they're
on one on one level like we're i'm a dude you
know and it's like no nobody's gonna bully my
best friend and partner in life and wife like
absolutely not at the same time professionally
i can't just go you know dominant male monkey
and start kicking doors down you know Um, and
also, you know, it'd be incredibly disrespectful
and belittling, you know, of me to, to trample
her autonomy and assume that she needed me to
come to her rescue. Right. Uh, especially when
I know, you know, she's hell, she's a better
clinician than I am. She'd been around longer
than I have had a better reputation than I did.
Um, you know, who am I, but I got to watch her,
you know, work through that one. Um, I got to
watch her show. incredible resilience, right?
Like how she kind of kept a stiff lip and just
kept going, going back to like, no, I'm not going
to, you know, I'm not just going to fold and
like, let them win. I'm going to just go keep
doing my job and do it well. Um, which, uh, you
know, I, I owe that side tangent for just a second.
I learned so much about accountability, like
self accountability to perform at your job from
her. Like there's, I have not met a person that
holds themselves to a higher standard than my
wife Leanne does. And it's one of the things
I fell in love with her about, or fell in love
with her for, um, early on. But, uh, any who
I saw physical changes, you know, I saw psychological
changes, you know, I saw her affect change, you
know, she was beat down and, and really left.
you know, unsupported in a lot of ways. Um, and
this is part of working for, you know, a huge
organization, you know, help can be hard to find,
uh, you know, and, and speaking to leadership,
it can be hard to find a person of influence,
you know, a person in a position to actually
make a difference that's willing to stick their
neck out and say, well, no, hold on guys, not,
not kosher. This is not going to fly. Um, so,
you know, It is kind of whimsical thought, you
know, I don't really have any real landing point,
but it's it's a part of my story. It's definitely
a part of her story. And, you know, not to hyper
focus on the negative aspects of the job, but
the opportunity for that to happen is everywhere.
And it's on each and every one of us to do our
best to make sure that that you don't let that
seed take root, you know, because that's this
doesn't happen overnight. You know, a team doesn't
go from positive, uplifting culture. To toxic
dog eat dog, you know, stand on each other's
heads to keep your own head above water overnight.
It's insidious, right? So it takes a degree of
just situational awareness, I guess. And again,
the senior folks on a team to steer that ship
in another direction. And that can be done. And
I can speak to that through my leadership role
within the flight program. So the flight program,
I serve as a flight paramedic and I'm also the
clinical base lead. So I'm responsible with no
punitive authority for the goings on and operations
of my base, the base my helicopter operates out
of. When I took that role, I told Leanne that
I was going to change the culture. I told her,
I'll just say it. It's my team, so I can speak
to it. My base had a reputation for drama. Right.
For infighting, for caddy drama. Everybody is
at each other's throats. Nobody was happy. So,
dude, I'm going to turn around. It's going to
take years, but I'm going to do it. And I'll
call her out. Leon's like, no, you're not. I
was like, watch me. And. I set out to do that
and I paid attention. I think at the end of the
day, the biggest thing is everybody just wants
to be heard. When you have a team of performers
that were all towards the top of wherever they
came from, one, they want to be heard, and two,
they need room to perform. To get hired on the
flight team, there's a minimum required experience
set you have to have. Credentials, certain jobs,
a number of years. But that's like, that's the
floor, right? Everybody has more than that. So
everybody's experienced, everybody's performed.
You've got to give us room to cook and room to
work. So, and I knew that early, right? Cause
I had the same frustration. It's like, dude,
just give me a room. I know what I'm doing. Like,
let me go. What's that? What's that movie? The
other guys with Mark Wahlberg and Will Ferrell.
There's that quote. He's like, I'm a peacock.
You got to let me fly. You know, that's that's
us. So early on, when I asked, this is another
thing. I'm the only base lead in my program's
history that asked to be base lead. Everybody
else air quotes, you know, they were asked to
do it. They, of course, didn't pursue that. But
no, I did. I wanted the opportunity. So I asked
for it. I shot my shot and they said yes. So
early on, I worked to make sure everybody was
heard and then just clear room, like clear space
for everybody to work. And I did that. And also
early on, and Leanne literally laughed at me
when I told her this. And so I came up with three
goals for myself. And I'll admit these are the
cheesiest. This is this sounds like something
out of the worst self -help book you've ever
read. But my three goals are be of utility, protect
our house and turn the frowns upside down. And,
you know, the last one's a little tongue in cheek,
but truly like show everyone it's OK to like
enjoy work. Right. Like saying I like my job
and I'm actually glad to be here. That's not
uncool. Like, it's OK. It's cool to say that.
So any who, what I'm speaking to here is if you
have some awareness, if you have some humility,
if you're willing to say, Hey guys, I screwed
this up. My bad. When the team says, Hey, this
thing is not working. This way we're doing something
is not working. Don't be intimidated by a good
idea coming from South of you, right? Have some
humility. Know that that's not a threat to you
as a leader. That's just a good idea from a team
of ideally performers that probably have some
good insights to contribute. Let them cook. And
the culture has changed. Our team's clicking.
We've been clicking for a while. We had a few
key moments that I kind of latched onto, bad
down periods. In 2021, we lost two of our team
a week apart. Yeah. Joel and Daniela, um, Daniela
passed away to cancer and, um, and Joel, uh,
to a motorcycle accident that, um, they, they
were partners. Um, Daniela died, Joel died a
little over a week later and it was eight days.
Um, and I know that what happened to Daniela,
um, you know, I very least contributed to that
accident happening. Um, but I, I latched on to
that. We were all down. We're a small team, so
we're tight. We're close. It hurt. Right. And
the leadership at the time that's no longer around
wasn't supportive of us. They weren't a presence
through that. And there is one key moment. And
again, not to go negative, but, you know, this
happened and I'd like to speak to it. And our
then boss was literally same time posting selfies
of himself on vacation. And everybody that was
at that funeral, they were passing phones around
with these pictures during the funeral. So for
me, you know, it's like, geez, what do I do with
this? You know, you can't, I was like, yeah,
it bothers me too, but you can't just dive deeper
into a deeper, darker place. So I latched onto
it and I created a shared enemy almost. I was
like, hey guys, you're right. That's like ridiculous,
ridiculously tone deaf and hurtful. But hey,
guess what? It doesn't matter. That's something
outside of this circle, right? What matters is
right here. We're all here. And that's what matters.
Everything outside this circle, everything outside
these walls is something else. Right. That's
not us. What's here matters. And then I just,
you know, I opportunistically, I guess, and you
probably pick apart the ethics of this, but I
kept that theme going, you know, and it kept
us tight. And, you know, it we are where we are
now, I think, in large part because of those
awful junctures, you know, losing two teammates,
a team of eight people. You know, we lost two
in a week, but something positive did come from
it. And it's been lasting. What Leanne went through,
I mean, I hear this from so many people, that
toxic culture, that organizational betrayal can
be so detrimental. And even, I don't know if
this is what you were alluding to, but even some
of these accidents that we have, you wonder,
okay, was that an accident or was that technically
one of the either sleep deprivation related things
or even more deliberate than an accident? I had
a similar thing in the last place I worked. We
lost one of my classmates to an overdose and
went to his funeral. We're coming back. I've
told this story a few times on here, but it still
makes my blood boil. We put the ladder truck
up. His old department sent just one guy with
the ladder truck, so we had to help him set everything
up, put the flag up, wait for the last person
to leave the funeral, and then help him break
down everything as well. We got something to
eat. And we're heading back. And I feel like
this is kind of in line with what you're talking
about with the vacation pictures. My lieutenant,
there's four of us on this rig, gets a call saying,
you need to apologize to everyone at this place
because they've been running extra calls while
you've been at the funeral. And so I'm just like,
you know, dumbfounded. And I get back and get
back to the station. And everyone's there. Everyone's
in quarters. Everyone's in a Lazy Boy. And I'm
just like fuming. I don't get angry very often.
And I said, please tell me that what we heard
was incorrect. Oh, no, but it was being really
bad. I'm like, we just fucking buried one of
our guys. And this is what you think is important?
And it's the same thing. But I was on an island
that day. And I got so angry, I basically said,
I'm leaving. before I do something that's going
to cost me my career. Because I was that fucking
close to breaking jaws. Genuine. I'm not an aggressive
person. I'm not beating my chest. I was so disgusted.
But yeah, it's that same thing. And there's a
circle within that that absolutely were there
for him for the right reasons that went to the
funeral. But you talk about moral injury. Nothing
worse than being part of a group that's supposed
to care. And you're presented with something
like that. And that's when the switch flipped
for me in that department. That's when I was
the beginning of the end. I'm like, I cannot
believe having come from great departments, you
know, where one of the guys gets hurt and the
rest of the crew will repair his roof that he'd
been working on before he was hurt. You know
what I mean? That kind of brotherhood and sisterhood.
But yeah, so all you can do, like you said, is,
you know, find your people and then make that
circle even stronger. Yeah, absolutely. That's
disappointing to hear, but, you know, unfortunately
not, not terribly surprising. Yeah. You mentioned
early on in the conversation about some of your
low points as well. And we talk about mental
health before we progress on, you know, what
were the lowest points that you found in your
career? And then what were the tools that you
found to navigate out of that? Yeah. I like how
you asked that question, right? Cause it's not
just ruminate with me on your lowest points in
life. Um, so I'll, uh, you know, I, I, a lot
of this, I've never literally never shared with
anyone before, uh, except, um, you know, possibly
my, my counselor, uh, that I see. Um, So breaking
news, folks, you're hearing it here first. So,
no, I would say first, towards the end of my
rescue career, I was pretty beat down. You know,
now looking, you know, in hindsight, it's that
insidious wear and tear, you know, shift work,
the sleep, the unhealthy lifestyle, the zero
regard for general wellness. You know, I thought
I was a stud, right? I look good in a T -shirt.
poorly and drank too much um didn't sleep well
uh but uh there was that and then there's also
the uh the the classic you know ems end of a
of a marriage you know it's back then it was
it was almost like a running joke it's like you're
not a real ems guy until you get your first divorce
um you know so i had a relationship that ended
uh in a bad way you know in a very negative way
And it was at a point in life where I really
thought I was starting to figure things out.
You know, again, white picket fence. I was like,
dude, we got this thing figured out. Everything's
perfect. I know where we're going. I'm getting
mandatory all the time, but I need the money.
So we got that covered. And, you know, and then
that all changed. Right. And it left me in a
place where everything went from perfect. And
I was certain where I was going and what I was
supposed to be doing to just being beat down
and working 96 hours a week every week. you know,
staying up all night, running calls, just wake
up, rinse, repeat, and do it all over again.
Um, I, I went to a dark place, you know, I didn't
want that relationship to end, uh, certainly
the way it did. Uh, but it did, um, you know,
at a big house, it was empty with just me in
it. Um, a lot of sleepless nights. I was, I was
at a really, really dark place and I'll speak
to how I came out of that. But I'll also speak
to how I kind of like grinded out surviving through
it, honestly. And this is the real piece I've
never shared with anybody. But I was at the end
of my rope, you know, and I was having those
dark, bad thoughts. And, you know, I guess two
things really kind of kept me from making a decision
to do something that, you know, you can't come
back from by design. One was... I would lay there
not being able to sleep and I'd go, I'd just
go work out. I had a 24, one of the 24 hour,
you know, gym, uh, memberships two o 'clock in
the morning. I'd just go get in the truck and
go work out two in the morning. And I'd work
out until I had to come home to get dressed,
to go back to work. Um, and I do that. And then
another thing, you know, if this man, you know,
I don't know. I don't know if this is even appropriate
to really like put out there. I definitely wouldn't
use this as advice because it's not healthy,
but I just kept deciding to do it tomorrow. You
know, just like one more day, I'll do it tomorrow.
You know, give it a night. And I just kept doing
that, right? And then at a point, things changed
and I did kind of climb back up my rope, you
know, and climbed out of the hole. But, you know,
I've never, she'll hear this now, but I've never
told her this. Leanne saved my life. Like, and
I don't mean that figuratively. I mean, I mean
it literally. I was at a point when we met where,
uh, you know, I decided I was like, man, this,
this track I've chosen, like, I don't think this
is for me. Like this didn't work out the way
I thought it was going to. And, um, I was so
just despondent and discouraged about like having
to start over. that I was at a juncture where
at a point I had decided, I'm either going to
kill myself or I'm going to just go do contract
work and just leave entirely and just go do something
totally different. But this is my skill set.
This is my credentialing. So a coworker and friend
of mine, we were speaking to recruiters for contract
agencies, and I was looking for somewhere as
far away from here as I could get to just go
do contract work and just leave, like facilitate
me. leaving and going somewhere else, maybe it'll
be better. Right. And then, um, you know, throughout,
I did maintain some focus on like career progression.
I was like, I got to get out of rescue. This
is like just beating the piss out of me. Um,
so I did get hired to the flight team, uh, which
was a positive kind of helped pull me out of
the hole. But then, you know, and I also had
some really, really good friends along the way
that like kept forcing me out of the house and
like that, that presence was enough. you know,
to kind of keep me going in a sense, you know,
just do it tomorrow, you know? And, um, then
Leanne slid into my DMS and you see her around,
you can ask her, she'll confirm. She slid into
my DMS, not the other way around. But she sent
me a message, and we actually had a mutual friend
play a matchmaker between us. It's pretty cool.
I'm mentioning one by name, but he knows who
he is. Leanne and I both know who he is. He was
going to Leanne and telling Leanne that I had
been asking about her, and then he was coming
to me telling me that Leanne had been asking
about me. And I think he saw where we both were
in life and cared about us as humans and just
wanted to see us happy and together. And that's
what happened. And Leanne, she showed me so much
almost immediately. She showed me the same world
that I had been working and living in through
a different lens. She was the first person I
heard share a similar sentiment that I shared
with you earlier. Like, dude, I hated this job.
For like two years, because I was so worried
and so eaten up with anxiety that I was going
to, you know, self -imposed pressure to perform,
you know, worry that I would be underprepared
for a thing. And when soon as she said it out
loud, I was like, me too, you know, but I never
really had, I guess, the confidence or, you know,
awareness enough to say that out loud to another
human. And also she was the first person that,
you know, really introduced the idea of off ramps.
You know, she told me early on, she's like, Hey,
I don't know what your plans are, but there's
an expiration date on clinical work. I was like,
I like that. I think I'm going to, I have one
of those now too. You know, it's like, I'll figure
out when it is, but I now have an expiration
date on clinical work. I'm going to follow your
lead there. And that's kind of been our story,
man. I've largely followed Leanne's lead. And,
uh, you know, we did in fact do that. You know,
she, she was able to retire earlier than most.
Um, you know, we put an expiration date on clinical
work and then as we set goals and reached them,
we ultimately, you know, put an expiration date
on working for just other people in general,
you know, and, and together, um, you know, alternating
who leads just through various seasons of life.
You know, we've, we've set goals, we've met them
and, you know, we're, we're on a good track.
Just going back to the dark place. Cause then
we want to talk about what you guys are doing
now. Um, I've said this on here many times. The
old way that we discuss suicide was it's selfish,
it's cowardly. How could they think of your family?
And then now, as we sit here, I've spoken to
over twelve hundred people, many of whom have
got those those dark stories. And I started seeing
the common denominator over and over and over
again where. At that point, through the perfect
storm of unaddressed childhood trauma, sleep
deprivation and side effects of alcohol and meds
and all the things that come together, that their
brain had been miswired to the point that they
truly believed that they were a burden and they
were the reason that other people were hurting.
And if they could, you know, if they just took
themselves out. that that would solve the problem,
that their family would be happy. Now, that makes
no sense to a healthy mind, but to someone in
that arguably psychosis by that point, it makes
perfect sense. And if you frame it that way,
the people that we've lost to suicide, it must
have been terrifying for them. And it probably
took courage because they believe that they were
solving this problem by removing the cancer,
which was themselves. did you have any of that
kind of whispering in your head when you were
in your darkest point? Yeah. So, you know, I've
heard you speak to that concept before. Um, and
it's really interesting. I thought a lot about
it and it does make a lot of sense. Um, and it's,
it's actually really sad, you know, to think
about, but, um, you know, no, honestly I didn't.
Um, you know, there's, there's a lot of self
-loathing, you know, um, yeah I'd explore all
the ways that I like deserve to be in this deep
dark place you know and then I'd also have the
why me what did I do to deserve this you know
so it was a very much a roller coaster of you
know thoughts and emotions and perspectives but
ultimately when I guess to speak to you know
when I was at my lowest it was mostly you know
it was the overall The overall feeling, I guess,
was just utter discouragement. Just utter discouragement.
I had worked so hard from where I came from,
working through the things I did, and setting
goals and reaching them. We got this house, and
there's this track. We've got it figured out.
We know where we're going, and it's going to
be so great. We're going to do it different than
how I grew up. And then it gets really out of
your control. But unplanned, unforecasted, that
changes. And where do you go from there? And
the thought of just changing course or starting
over was just so... I don't know. I was at a
place where I felt empty and listless and just
didn't want to put that much effort in all over
again. Again, 2 a .m. workouts are not healthy.
But looking back, that's been the one consistent
throughout my entire adult life that I've never
stopped doing is exercising. And that is a touchstone.
And it is a significant component of my current
mental health, which is in a great place. So
anyone that's down and out, dude, I've been there.
I promise. Do it tomorrow. Don't do it. It gets
better. I promise just grind it out, stick with
it. And if you're, you know, like James is speaking
to, you know, feeling like it's your fault and
that your, your people will be better off without
you. It's flat wrong. Okay. So fight those feelings.
But, um, you know, even now, like I'm in a great
headspace. I still speak with a counselor, um,
you know, very much proponent of EMDR, very effective.
Um, and I work out every single day. I sweat
the demons out. Like anyone that knows me well
has heard me say that you got to sweat the demons
out. And, um, you know, that's tongue in cheek
too, but there's some, some truth to it. And,
uh, you know, again, speaking to Leanne, you
know, all the things I've learned from her, you
know, when I was at a point of like, just utter
discouragement with having to start over, right.
Like that's where my head was like, I'm gonna
have to completely start over and do all this,
you know, the last eight years, which is for
not. You know, and I've got to do it all over
again. You know, she basically and, you know,
in ways said, no, like, let's just meet here
and go forward together. And that's what we've
done. And it's been incredible ever since. It's
amazing to hear. And I think the thing with Iron
Legion that we see as well is that you've got
gyms, you know, and I think that's fantastic.
You go in there, you put headphones on, you work
out. Brilliant. But there are gyms like R1. That
when you walk through, it's not just a workout,
it's a community. And I think that really does
just amplify the wellness element because not
only are you still getting a workout, you're
suffering side by side, you're making fun of
each other. It's another entire tribe outside
of fire, EMS, flight, whatever your unit is.
So I would challenge people, don't just find
a gym. Where you're just going to sit on a peck
deck and do three sets of 12. Find a place, you
know, that you can drop yourself in. That as
soon as you walk through the door, you're kind
of swept away with that community. And, you know,
after your workout, you might sit there for half
an hour talking to people. You know, I think
there's so much value to that. Well, you mentioned
about expiration dates. So one of the powerful
conversations that comes out of, for example,
a work week like 2472 is the ability to start
building an entrepreneurial project on the side.
So then you can make that transition. Talk to
me about, you know, what made you even have this
idea? And then let's talk about all the things
that you offer. Sure. So I'll speak to the income
artist, but if you don't mind, I will speak to
the broader idea. Please. having an off -ramp
from whatever your current career path is, if
you want one, but just please, even if you don't
currently want one, at least consider the thought
and leave the door open in the future. Earlier
in your career, you're going to love the job.
You're going to be all in, both feet in, hot
and heavy, whatever it is. I'm a firefighter.
I'm a paramedic. I'm going to put it all over
Instagram, and everybody's going to know, and
my badge is going to be this big, right, in the
center of my chest. You know, that does fade,
and the job will wear on you. Even a 24 -72 schedule,
as fantastic as it may be, it's a job. It's a
difficult job. There's a lot of stressors, right?
Shift work is a carcinogen. You know, you're
the first person I heard speak to that. bottleneck
yourself, right? Like leave your future open
with, with options. So Leanne and I collectively
decided like, Hey, we, we both love doing what
we're doing. Right. And we're enjoying it. We're
going to do it for a good long while, but we
know at some point we're likely going to want
to deviate, want to separate from that. And,
you know, our health and wellbeing takes precedent
over the career. Right. Um, so we started looking
for ways to get off of, you know, we're looking
for off ramps from the traditional find a career
job, work 30 years, retire, hopefully by 65 and
have enough, you know, vigor left in you to enjoy
a few years before you're just flat elderly and
loafing around. Um, so, you know, for us, we
started putting thought in that and where that
all started for us was, um, you know, we, I had
sold my house and moved in with Leanne, you know,
early in my relationship, she owned a duplex.
We lived in one side and rented the other, you
know, and it was magical. It was just her and
I and our two cats and our little thousand square
foot apartment and that paid for itself. And
then we started looking for more like, OK, what
are we going to do? Investment properties like
we kind of already have it like let's just expand
on that. So, you know, we saved up. We lived
fiscally conservatively. We lived much more fiscally
conservatively than we needed to for a really
long time. And the reason for that wasn't it
wasn't delayed gratification for the sake of
delayed gratification, because there's a book
that said there's merit to it. We were setting
goals. you know, and we were achieving them.
Um, and anyone listening to this podcast can
do the same, you know, in the fire rescue service,
like every other firefighter, it seems has a
side, like lawn, lawn service business, or, you
know, handyman service business or pressure washing
or whatever, like, dude, get after it, but just
don't just stop there, grow it, like put a little
thought and information has never been easier
to get. Download the free version of ChatGPT.
Say, hey, I have a part -time lawn service business.
Help me grow it. And you can do it. And next
thing you know, maybe you'll have three or four
or five or eight of your firefighter buddies
all working for you. And you can go PRN and make
more money and have more freedom and say over
your own time. So we look for those off -ramps.
I'll start. Would you like me to explain what
we are and what we do? Yeah, absolutely. So we're
a team of clinicians. Everyone on our team has
a clinical background in some form or fashion.
The team started with my teammate, Jake Bevilacqua,
who's a CRNA. He's worked his entire adult life
in clinical health care. He started as a first
responder, volunteer. went to EMT paramedic school
and then nursing school and ultimately became
a CRNA. a series of events and some connections.
His father had actually worked his entire adult
life in financial advising and owned an insurance
agency. So Jake found himself in a position where
he needed insurance. He was going 1099, so doing
contract work. And he reached out to his dad
and said, hey, I need insurance. His dad said,
I'll do you one better. I'll teach you how to
sell it to yourself. So he empowered Jake with
those tools. Jake started helping his colleagues,
his coworkers, word of mouth spread. And then
next thing you know, Jake had more people reaching
out to him for insurance than he could sufficiently
handle himself. So he looped me in. And this
was real early in Jake and I's friendship, but
we hit it off pretty fast. And he invited me.
Um, at the time I took it as a job offer to sell
insurance for him, which I had zero interest
in. Like, dude, I have streams of income. We've
carved out a pretty happy life. Like things are
going good. I have no interest selling insurance.
And, um, he told me, he's like, no, it's, it's
a lot more than that. We're actually like serving
our colleagues. Just, you know, hear me out.
So we went and had lunch and I heard him out
and I saw an opportunity. Um, to do just that,
right? To be of utility, going back to my worst
self -help book, three quotes ever, you know,
be of utility to my people at a broader scale.
And I thought highly enough of Jake and wanted
to work with him enough. It's like, oh, let's
give it a try. And, you know, so I started helping
him out with what he was doing. And the next
thing you know, it just kept growing and growing
and growing to where we had more people reaching
out to us for help. than Jake and John could
handle. So we were kind of forced to grow a team
around ourselves. And we've done just that. And
at this point, we're a team of nine currently.
We offer life and disability insurance, also
long -term care insurance, financial planning,
retirement account setups, and tax management.
And we have referral pathways to a few other
services. Our overarching goal is to protect
and grow our colleagues' wealth. You know, and
we do that by by serving as a resource for any
of the services that I floated to you. All of
our clients are either firefighters, EMTs, nurses,
mostly CRNAs. It's everybody that's from, you
know, cut from this cloth. These are our people
and it's who we're looking to serve and protect.
You know, and on this, I will speak to. You know,
I definitely wouldn't call it a passion project,
but it's it's a piece of this a piece of what
we're doing that I am quite passionate about.
And we spoke, I think, at a few points throughout
our chat here today on, you know, certainly on
suicide, which is firefighter death, cancer,
overdoses. You know, my friend Joel and Daniela,
you know, and, you know, it seems far too frequently.
when I see someone close to me or in an overlapping
circle, you know, within this world pass away,
you know, a week later, you see a GoFundMe for
the family because they're in distress. You know,
they not only lost their, a family member, they
lost a provider, right. And they're in trouble,
you know, and a GoFundMe is not a financial plan
and it's not a solution for a family that doesn't
have an income anymore. Right. And, you know,
It's something that's a risk that a family is
exposed to that could be mitigated early and
in a very inexpensive way. Right. And this goes
back to training, right. Education, you know,
the fire, the fire, fire colleges do a great
job at teaching you how to put a fire out. Right.
And not die while you're doing it. Paramedic
school does a great job of teaching you how to
treat sick people. What both of those don't do.
Is educate you on how to live your life well
in that profession, right? How to protect yourself
and your family through that profession. And,
you know, term life insurance, you know, a million
dollar term life insurance policy when you're
early 20s and before you have a super risky job
like that of a firefighter, it's so cheap, like
less than $50 a month. Right. And this is not
an attempt to, you know, solicit your audience
at all. You know, certainly I'm happy to answer
any questions, be a resource for education. Yeah,
we sell these things, but I could care less if
you buy anything from me or not. Just know that
your family is vulnerable if replacement for
your income is not there. Right. And, you know,
to all the schools out there, to all the people
that are influential in training, you know, Touch
on the mental health aspect of the job, you know,
like to touch on what James spoke to, you know,
you're not, every code is going to be saying
not every mega code is going to result in a return
of spontaneous circulation. Most of them are,
you know, speak to that, speak to the nuance,
the gray area around the job, like, Hey, you
know, this shift work's going to affect your
future family. You know, your future family is
going to be incredibly vulnerable to the loss
of you and your income. You know, mitigate that.
Think about it. You know, protection for your
income, even if you don't die. You know, know
what benefits your department or your hospital
or whomever you work for offer. And what will
it look like if you lose your ability to work?
You know, and that's one of the big voids we're
trying to fill. You know, we're trying to get
in with schools just to give education. You know,
not soliciting, just educating them like, hey,
here's some blind spots that I wish I'd have
known about 15 years ago when it was affordable.
You know, but nobody told me until I grew up.
So unfortunately, we met a lot of resistance,
you know, getting through the door with schools.
And I understand that, you know, what they see
from the outside is, you know, an insurance agency
trying to sell insurance to their students when
it really couldn't be. You know, that couldn't
be farther from the truth. But yeah, that's who
we are. That's the need we're really trying to
solve. You know, the problem we're trying to
solve. And, you know, we're trying to do it for
our people exclusively. You mentioned about this
being a conversation even before you go in the
fire service. Are you able to lock in a certain
rate then that makes it more affordable that
people get in early? Yes. So two things affect.
One overarching thing affects how much insurance
is going to cost for you, right? And that's how
much risk you pose to an insurance company. So
the older you are, the less healthy you are,
the more medical history you have, the more risky
you are to insure. Because at the end of the
day, that's what insurance is. You're paying
to transfer risk from yourself and or your family
to an insurance company. They're willing to assume
that risk and they charge you money for it. Um,
that's what it boils down to. So anything about
you that would make you more risky to ensure
is going to make it cost more. So age, medical
history, we spoke to those also working as a
firefighter or a police officer or even a nurse,
right? That nursing is hard. I saw it with my
mom. I saw what it did to my mom's body after
40 something years. And the insurance companies
know that. So they're going to charge you more
as a flight paramedic. if I were going to buy,
you know, a new long life insurance policy right
now, it would like, I'm 39 years old, healthy,
just my job alone. It's going to be borderline
unaffordable. Right. Um, now we have options.
We have different channels we can work through.
Like we will find a solution for everybody, but
man, if someone had put a bug in my ear before
I started flying, right. If someone at the flight
team had told me like, Hey, before you start,
you may want to consider this. Because as soon
as you put this patch on and you now fly as a
part of an air crew, the entire insurance outlay
is entirely different for you. That would have
helped a lot. So we're trying to do that for
others. If nothing else for cost and anticipation
of future needs. But also, we're happy to educate.
And that's all we're trying to do. You know,
is is get the good word out there, educate people
and help folks avoid the mistakes and the blind
spots that we had for so long. So if you get
a policy prior to the fire, even though you're
joining a profession that's arguably more dangerous,
your rate stays the same. Yes. So with life insurance
specifically, like in almost every case, there
are exceptions to everything, but most policies.
you're guaranteed a certain amount of coverage
at a certain price for a certain period of time.
That's how it works, and that's why you're incentivized
to get it while you're young and healthy. Yeah,
it would be good for me. I'm a martial artist,
stuntman, and firefighter. Probably uninsurable
when I was in my 40s. You'd raise a few eyebrows.
For sure. All right. Well, I want to go to some
closing questions. Be mindful of your time. The
first one I love to ask, is there a book or other
books that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Sure. So I'm not. I'm sure you get a lot of nonfiction.
I'm not doing that. The Thrawn series. So I'm
a Star Wars nerd. So the Thrawn series of Star
Wars books. And The Wheel of Time series by,
I don't remember the author's name, but it's
like 14 books long. It's incredibly long, but
it's worth it. Brilliant. I haven't had that
one recommended before. What about films, television,
documentaries? Oh, that's a really good question.
Icarus was good. Oh, great film. Yeah, Icarus
was really, really good. The Last Dance was good.
Let's see if I can think of something enriching.
If you haven't watched Game of Thrones, read
the books first, please. No, I'd stick with those
two for documentaries. Brilliant. Next question.
Is there a person that you recommend to come
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders, military, and associated professions
of the world? There's one, but I haven't spoken
with him, so I don't want to float his name yet.
I think I've mentioned him to you in the past.
I'm going to talk to him. I think he'd be a really
good fit. it's a um third generation first responder
with um So my friend, former co -worker, he mentored
me early in my career. His dad worked for the
sheriff's department and his son is now a legacy
firefighter at the fire service that he just
retired for. So I think he's got a really cool
perspective. He's of a generation that I think
saw a lot of change. He's a generation or two
before me. So he saw change. from like the legit
old days of of doing you know the old way of
doing things to you know present or he just retired
within the last like three years so i think that'd
be a cool chat i have a question for you too
yeah go for it if you don't mind no So I've always
wondered, I know you worked as a stuntman out
in California. You've worked for the fire service.
We know that. You know, martial arts, exercise,
all these things. And we know that you, we being
your audience, right? Because I do listen to
your show. We know you also grew up on a farm
in England and your dad was a large animal vet.
What the hell happened in between? How did you
go from rural UK? Son of a large animal vet,
Hollywood stuntman. Well, I mean, when I did
the stunts, it was live shows. So it wasn't Hollywood
2, the actual vicinity, but it was Universal
Studios, the theme park. So I want to clarify
that. I didn't do films because you couldn't
as a firefighter. You just don't have the time
to do that. But origin story, when I was in secondary
school, so like 11 to 16, every year you had
the annual. physical the medical and uh they
showed me the color vision book um and it's funny
because my wife's an optometrist now i've asked
her about this at the time they were like if
you can't see the numbers then you're colorblind
that was it black and white so now looking back
it's like basically saying if you're not 2020
then you're stevie wonder When obviously there
is all these degrees in between. But at the time,
it was a disqualifying factor. So in this medical
that I had, they told me, right, you can't be
a pilot. You can't be a firefighter. And they
just listed all the things that I dreamt of becoming
and just took them off the table. So for years,
when I reflect back now, I just fumbled around.
Because imagine not realizing that you actually
know what you want as a young boy. And then someone
tells you, you know, wearing a white coat and
a stethoscope, you can't do that. You're kind
of lost. And I wanted to be a doctor, but I just
didn't have what I learned. I didn't have the
desire to be a sit behind the desk and write
prescriptions doctor anyway, but I didn't have
the academic smarts. I just didn't, you know,
for the math. I didn't have the determination
to get past that like my wife did. I mean, she,
you know, she overcame so much to get where she
is now. She was not a natural student at all.
So life took me in this bizarre path where I
was fumbling around and I was a bit of a fuck
up. And, you know, I lifeguarded and I found
myself working on summer camps in America. And
that ultimately led me to travel the world with
my girlfriend from there. And then when I'm traveling,
I'm in Australia. Oh, and I went to, let me backtrack.
So I fall in love with this girl, English girl
I met in this American summer camp. Go back to
London. I'm in university. She's in Wales in
this drama school and she's doing the sets and
the costumes. She's behind the scenes. And so
after a year on a whim, I'm like, well, I'm just
going to try and get into drama school. And I'm
an awful actor, but somehow I think I was just
different. I was a martial artist and I threw
some kicks in the monologue and all that stuff.
And I got in. Mind -blowing, I got in. do this
just one year course in in acting and within
that there was a stage combat course i was awful
at acting but very good at sword work and all
that kind of thing then we decided to travel
the world get to australia universal studios
is opening a park in japan and on a whim again
this is the one takeaway from my life if the
door opens fucking walk through it what's the
worst that can happen you get offered something
you say i'd actually i don't want it but thank
you um yeah so i got the job worked in japan
doing stunts for 15 months, met my son's mother,
who's an American performer over there. And then
that's what brought me to the US. And then when
I literally, I've told the story on here before,
about a week before we flew over, we went to
England for six months to get my visa. And then
we came over here. There was a issue of muscle
and fitness and there was a Miami Dade firefighter
in it. And we're talking, God, 25 years ago now.
And I was reading about what they do here. And
it wasn't just the fire. It was just paramedic
thing too and everything just came together there
was the fire there was the doctor thing I didn't
realize was supposed to be a medic and then where
we moved it was I don't know three miles from
Central Florida Fire Academy in Orlando and so
everything just came together shortly after 9
-11 yeah and so that was the beginning of this
and then having that stunt background I then
worked for Universal in Orlando then we moved
to LA for a few years and I worked over there
in that Universal Came back here and I just,
up until two years ago, did the Jason Bourne
stunt show in Orlando. So that's how all these
kind of fingers, you know, intersect. But yeah,
I mean, honestly, and even moving departments,
like going back to exactly what you said, hey,
if you're not happy or it's not the right fit
or your family needs to be somewhere else and
you put your family first, which I always did,
then just make it happen. You know, walk through
that door. You know, there are... thousands of
fire departments across america so to your point
circling around be where you need to be find
that tribe find that place that you're happy
you know because anaheim you know i always hold
that on the pedestal in california that was my
place and i literally was talking to my captain
two days ago and i left there in 2008 and they
were at my wedding and my best man i'm a groomsman
and you know what i mean so so yeah but life's
too short to just be stuck in a fire department
for 25 years with a countdown on your app, you
know, 10 years into it, miserable, you know,
just, there's so many exciting things out there
to do. And then that obviously led to podcasts
and books and now television shows, hopefully.
So long -winded answer to your question, but
that's, that's the missing bit in between. No,
I love it. And thank you. Uh, thank you for sharing
that. Right. Cause again, you know, I listen,
I'm sure somebody else said the same question,
like connect those two dots, you know, rural
large animal british farm to uh you know stuntman
the firefighter and the like and so that's also
funny so in the uk they you know you had something
less than 2020 vision they said nope you can't
do it you asked they just they just asked if
you could see probably yeah if the answer to
that's yes you know it's not how many fingers
are you holding up but say am i holding up fingers
yeah go Yeah, it was the chart. But what was
funny is when I read this magazine and I go to
this fire academy and I listen to the orientation
and I'm like, I'm just going to ask him to, you
know, ask me to name a color of anything in the
room. Like, this is stupid. I can see colors.
And that was all it took was to question, you
know, the tests that they do and ask, does it
make sense? Does a 2448 make sense? No, we know
it doesn't because our profession is crumbling.
You know, there's so many things. Does backboarding
make sense? No, it doesn't. We watch them sliding
all over the place while their head's strapped
to a, you know, a head collar. No, it's making
it work. You know, does using water on a car
fire make sense when everything is class B? No,
it doesn't as well. So there's, you know, you
take a step back and then it's really good to
question things. And then you say, well, then.
What can I do to get around that barrier if that's
what I got to do? And I've got friends that are
amputees that are, you know, working in police
still. Lost his leg after a car hit him on a
wreck. And now he's back, you know, with prosthesis,
you know. So yeah, so it is interesting. But
yeah, you just sometimes you got to take a step
back, ask does it make sense? And then if it
doesn't, then what do you need to do differently?
You know, if you want to get from A to B bad
enough, you'll find a way or you'll find someone
else who's done it already that you can learn
from. Yeah, you're speaking my language now.
All right. Well, going back to you again, let's
put the microphones back the way they're supposed
to. The last question before we make sure everyone
knows where to find you, where to find the encomologists,
what do you do to decompress? Great question.
So I do a number of things. One, yeah this may
seem odd but my morning routine my my morning
routine is a touch point i'm robotic about it
at 4 a .m every day i get up i have coffee my
first cup of coffee i walk outside and just greet
nature right and that may sound hippy dippy woo
woo not at all 10 years ago i'd have been making
fun of myself but i go outside and i ground even
if it's cold even if it's just for a minute with
bare feet yep Um, there's something to it. Uh,
if nothing else, it's a part of my routine now.
So it's, it's staying, but my morning routine
starting my day, right. It helps keep my day
from, you know, you spoke to decompressing helps
keep my day from compressing, right. Uh, anything
outdoors, um, Leanne and I, anything outside
we're in, you know, fit, we fish often, you know,
fortunate enough, we've saved up for a really
long time, bought a boat. We use that often.
Nature walks, nature trails. If it's outside,
then it's relaxing and decompressing for me.
And exercise. I mean, when I miss time in the
gym consistently, right? Like life gets busy.
Sometimes you get pulled away from it and you
just can't make time. You know, I notice changes
in myself. You know, I get irritable. I don't
sleep well. you know, I'm not kind, you know,
at least in my head, you know, like driving around
in traffic or whatever. But, um, but yeah, so
I would say those are probably the three biggest
things, you know, holding true to my morning
routine, making time with Leanne outdoors, doing
something and, um, and, and making sure to keep
myself healthy. Love it. Well, for people listening.
If they want to learn more about you, reach out
to you. Where are the best places online for
you and or the Incomologists? Sure. So social
media is probably the quickest, easiest. I'm
John East, J -O -H -N, last name East, like the
direction. I'm on all the social medias. I'm
friends with James, so you can probably just
go find me in his friends list. The Incomologists,
we have a presence on Facebook, Instagram, and
LinkedIn. The underscore Incomologists. I N C
O M O L O G I S T S, which is oddly difficult
to recite off memory. Also the incomeologist
.com. You can find all of our contact information
there, or just feel free to reach out to me direct.
If you have a question about anything I talked
about, you know, it doesn't have to be related
to our business. I'm always happy to chat, always
happy to make new friends. So hit me up, give
a like and share or whatever, whatever you're
supposed to say. Well, I want to thank you so
much. It's been an amazing conversation. We've
gone all over the place from the technical operations
side all the way through to some of the emotional
highs and lows. So I want to thank you so, so
much for being so generous with your time and
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you for having me. Flattered.