WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.679
Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:03.520
always, my name's James Geering, and this week

00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:05.580
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show

00:00:05.580 --> 00:00:11.339
former law enforcement officer, Tom Morgan. Now,

00:00:11.380 --> 00:00:14.140
I have to say that this is one of the most pertinent

00:00:14.140 --> 00:00:16.600
episodes that I've recorded when it comes to

00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:18.500
the environment that we're experiencing at the

00:00:18.500 --> 00:00:24.699
moment in 2026. On April 13th, 1997, whilst on

00:00:24.699 --> 00:00:27.960
the job, Tom was shot in the face by Jason Samuel

00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:31.440
and almost died. Now, the journey of forgiveness

00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:33.920
that you will hear not only Tom, but his wife,

00:00:34.020 --> 00:00:37.520
Christy, embark on is exactly what we need to

00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.659
hear today. And if this isn't a lesson and inspiration

00:00:40.659 --> 00:00:44.560
to us all, then I don't know what is. Now, before

00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:47.140
we get to this incredible conversation, as I

00:00:47.140 --> 00:00:50.579
say every week, please just take a moment. Go

00:00:50.579 --> 00:00:53.200
to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:57.060
to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:01.320
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:04.079
this podcast, therefore making it easier for

00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:08.099
others to find. And this is a free library of

00:01:08.099 --> 00:01:13.180
over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:16.540
is that you help share these incredible men and

00:01:16.540 --> 00:01:19.920
women's stories so I can get them to every single

00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:22.719
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

00:01:23.299 --> 00:01:26.920
So with that being said, I introduce to you...

00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:50.650
Tom Morgan. Enjoy. Well, Tom, I want to start

00:01:50.650 --> 00:01:53.489
by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our

00:01:53.489 --> 00:01:56.090
mutual friend, Anthony Marquez, for making this

00:01:56.090 --> 00:01:58.370
introduction. And secondly, I want to welcome

00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:00.670
you on to the Behind the Shield podcast today.

00:02:02.810 --> 00:02:07.829
Thank you, James. I also want to thank Anthony

00:02:07.829 --> 00:02:14.229
or Tony. He's a remarkable young man. And one

00:02:14.229 --> 00:02:18.240
of the reasons I, you know, I wanted to come

00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:20.659
out and talk to you was because I got to watch

00:02:20.659 --> 00:02:25.259
Tony's podcast and kind of listen to a little

00:02:25.259 --> 00:02:28.219
bit more of his story, which I'd heard a part

00:02:28.219 --> 00:02:31.800
of it, but certainly not as much as was covered

00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:38.759
in the podcast. And that was, I thought, very

00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:43.280
well done. And Tony is an exceptional young man.

00:02:44.539 --> 00:02:47.060
Absolutely. Well, we'll get to how you guys met

00:02:47.060 --> 00:02:49.819
later in this conversation. Let's start at the

00:02:49.819 --> 00:02:52.120
very beginning, though. Firstly, where on planet

00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:56.159
Earth are we finding you today? I'm in Bakersfield,

00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:00.099
California. So with that being said, tell me

00:03:00.099 --> 00:03:02.060
where you were born and tell me a little bit

00:03:02.060 --> 00:03:03.960
about your family dynamic, what your parents

00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:08.699
did, how many siblings. Sure. Well, I was born

00:03:08.699 --> 00:03:15.550
in 1957 in San Jose, California. I was the firstborn

00:03:15.550 --> 00:03:23.129
to Tom and Patricia Morgan. My father at the

00:03:23.129 --> 00:03:26.889
time, and, you know, until he finally retired,

00:03:27.030 --> 00:03:35.889
was a teacher. He taught art, drafting. He was

00:03:35.889 --> 00:03:39.110
also a wrestling coach for most of his career.

00:03:42.650 --> 00:03:47.530
a nurse, a registered nurse, who worked in a

00:03:47.530 --> 00:03:50.009
variety of hospital settings, but towards the

00:03:50.009 --> 00:03:53.009
end of her career, she worked mainly in mental,

00:03:53.250 --> 00:03:58.110
lock -up mental health facilities. I've got a

00:03:58.110 --> 00:04:00.710
younger brother. He's the youngest of the four

00:04:00.710 --> 00:04:05.169
of us, and two sisters in the middle. Everyone's

00:04:05.169 --> 00:04:09.050
still alive and doing well. I lost my father.

00:04:11.630 --> 00:04:20.230
Last August, at the age of 94 years old, he was

00:04:20.230 --> 00:04:23.350
surrounded with his family when he went. And

00:04:23.350 --> 00:04:29.529
it was good that we had him with us for as long

00:04:29.529 --> 00:04:34.649
as we did. My mother died about 20 years ago

00:04:34.649 --> 00:04:40.250
from lung cancer. She was a lifelong smoker.

00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.360
With your mother's work, what was some of the

00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:49.360
things you remember her talking about with the

00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.879
mental health side? Because I think a lot of

00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:54.720
people don't realize that even though. We have

00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:56.980
progressed immensely when it comes to the mental

00:04:56.980 --> 00:04:59.959
health world and even what we describe as a disability

00:04:59.959 --> 00:05:02.220
these days. I mean, you have, you know, people

00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:04.839
with cerebral palsy powerlifting. We have people

00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:06.699
with Down syndrome doing, you know, Hawaiian

00:05:06.699 --> 00:05:10.000
Ironman triathlon. So we're redefining it incredibly.

00:05:10.220 --> 00:05:12.740
But there are still, you know, men and women

00:05:12.740 --> 00:05:15.000
on the physical and the mental health side that

00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:18.060
are going to spend their entire life in, you

00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:24.209
know, some sort of ward. Yeah, well, needless

00:05:24.209 --> 00:05:28.170
to say, she didn't talk a lot about her interactions

00:05:28.170 --> 00:05:32.009
with patients because, of course, that stuff's

00:05:32.009 --> 00:05:37.149
confidential. And you could certainly see that

00:05:37.149 --> 00:05:42.790
the work took its toll on her. One of the things

00:05:42.790 --> 00:05:47.290
that my wellness practice, before the phrase

00:05:47.290 --> 00:05:49.930
was popular, that my mother always engaged in

00:05:49.930 --> 00:05:52.560
was reading. And I think that's how she kind

00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:55.560
of escaped the rigors of, you know, dealing with

00:05:55.560 --> 00:06:00.339
the criminally, mentally ill on a day -to -day

00:06:00.339 --> 00:06:07.319
basis. And that's, you know, I inherited her

00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:11.120
love of reading, which, you know, I credit, you

00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.300
know, for whatever small amount of insider intelligence

00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:17.100
that I have to the fact that I love to read.

00:06:20.300 --> 00:06:23.800
My mother was in that field during an interesting

00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:27.399
time in the United States because that coincided

00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:30.959
with a movie that came out called One Flew Over

00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.620
the Cuckoo's Nest, which was actually filmed

00:06:33.620 --> 00:06:39.040
at the state institution where she worked in

00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:45.939
Salem, Oregon. That also, and I'm not exactly

00:06:45.939 --> 00:06:51.629
sure of the timing, but that all just generally

00:06:51.629 --> 00:06:56.329
coincided with the disenfranchisement of the

00:06:56.329 --> 00:06:59.550
mentally ill from lockup, you know, from lockup

00:06:59.550 --> 00:07:03.170
facilities. There was a time in this country

00:07:03.170 --> 00:07:06.430
when folks who were mentally ill that, you know,

00:07:06.449 --> 00:07:08.610
we couldn't treat or didn't know what to do with,

00:07:08.709 --> 00:07:11.709
that may have not, you know, been criminals,

00:07:11.829 --> 00:07:14.290
you know, or involved in criminal activity. We

00:07:14.290 --> 00:07:17.170
just... You know, they were disabled to the point

00:07:17.170 --> 00:07:18.769
that they couldn't care for themselves. There

00:07:18.769 --> 00:07:20.769
was a time when those people were all housed

00:07:20.769 --> 00:07:24.410
in these massive state facilities throughout

00:07:24.410 --> 00:07:27.629
the land. And I think it was when Reagan was

00:07:27.629 --> 00:07:30.050
president, there was legislation, and a lot of

00:07:30.050 --> 00:07:33.709
those people were leased from mental health facilities

00:07:33.709 --> 00:07:37.310
out onto the street. And I don't know enough

00:07:37.310 --> 00:07:40.560
about it to know whether or not there's... some

00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:42.980
sort of strict cause and effect with, you know,

00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:44.779
a lot of the problems that we have today with

00:07:44.779 --> 00:07:50.000
the mentally ill and unhoused folks. But, you

00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:52.980
know, they certainly had to go somewhere and

00:07:52.980 --> 00:07:56.579
they weren't going into, you know, institutions

00:07:56.579 --> 00:08:00.360
or any kind of care. So I think a lot of those

00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.379
people were kind of left, you know, as kind of

00:08:03.379 --> 00:08:05.920
the detritus of society. You know, they were,

00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:11.649
you know. out of sight out of mind uh however

00:08:11.649 --> 00:08:14.250
anymore they're not so much out of sight i guess

00:08:14.250 --> 00:08:18.170
i've had quite a few people that are you know

00:08:18.170 --> 00:08:21.110
experts in you know the the unhoused space as

00:08:21.110 --> 00:08:23.629
it were and many of them and many people in the

00:08:23.629 --> 00:08:25.670
mental health field as well have said yes that

00:08:25.670 --> 00:08:29.500
that that kind of reagan decision to you know,

00:08:29.500 --> 00:08:32.200
remove these facilities really was the kind of

00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:34.519
beginning of the homelessness that we see today.

00:08:34.620 --> 00:08:36.799
And obviously it's not the only thing, but, you

00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:38.980
know, I think it's pretty well acknowledged that

00:08:38.980 --> 00:08:41.320
a lot of people that are unhoused, you know,

00:08:41.340 --> 00:08:42.960
are suffering from mental health challenges.

00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.399
Yeah, that's certainly the case. That was certainly

00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:50.860
the case, you know, when I was a paramedic and

00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:56.919
when I was a cop, you know, that, you know, those

00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:01.779
were hard times. day in, day out customers. You

00:09:01.779 --> 00:09:06.120
know, always as part of the texture of our careers

00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:11.539
were our interactions with these folks. What

00:09:11.539 --> 00:09:14.039
about sports and exercise when you were in school

00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:16.100
age? Were you wrestling? Was your dad teaching

00:09:16.100 --> 00:09:17.460
you or were there other things that you were

00:09:17.460 --> 00:09:22.580
doing? Well, we couldn't help but do some wrestling

00:09:22.580 --> 00:09:29.159
just because that was always my dad's love. My

00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:31.000
dad was happy as long as we were involved in

00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.059
anything physical. He didn't, you know, pressure

00:09:35.059 --> 00:09:37.279
us to become wrestlers. And frankly, I was a

00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:41.639
lousy wrestler. I was long and gangly. And, you

00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:44.480
know, I didn't have that kind of low to the ground

00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:48.200
type of stature that, you know, a good, strong

00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:53.000
wrestler, you know, can take advantage of. But

00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:57.360
so I kind of, you know, headed in other directions.

00:09:58.509 --> 00:10:01.389
I got a motorcycle when I was, you know, pretty

00:10:01.389 --> 00:10:04.110
much old enough to ride it. And I raced motocross

00:10:04.110 --> 00:10:10.029
for a number of years. I played tennis in high

00:10:10.029 --> 00:10:15.970
school. I think I was on the football team for

00:10:15.970 --> 00:10:21.789
one year in junior high. And I was on track for

00:10:21.789 --> 00:10:24.750
several years, you know, in a variety of events.

00:10:25.950 --> 00:10:28.549
I was never what you would call a standout athlete.

00:10:28.730 --> 00:10:31.990
I just, you know, it just, you know, it was just

00:10:31.990 --> 00:10:35.029
part of our lifestyle to be active and, you know,

00:10:35.029 --> 00:10:36.929
be physical. So I think it's something I've always,

00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:41.590
however little I may have excelled in, the things

00:10:41.590 --> 00:10:44.750
I got involved with, I still enjoyed doing it.

00:10:45.929 --> 00:10:47.970
I think that's a really important perspective,

00:10:47.990 --> 00:10:51.740
though. Sadly, in modern society, predominantly

00:10:51.740 --> 00:10:53.620
because there's so much money attached to it.

00:10:53.659 --> 00:10:57.620
This elitism in a specific sport has become the

00:10:57.620 --> 00:11:00.759
holy grail. And that's moved us away from just

00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.580
playing sports because we enjoy it. We know that

00:11:03.580 --> 00:11:06.120
the multi -sport athlete, mentally and physically,

00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:09.179
is far more resilient than the specialist. But

00:11:09.179 --> 00:11:12.759
there's almost this kind of conversation that

00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:14.899
if you don't come first every time, then you're

00:11:14.899 --> 00:11:17.399
not worth a damn, rather than going back to what

00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:19.600
was always the case until recently, which is...

00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:21.860
If you love playing sport, go play some sports.

00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.980
Just have fun. It doesn't matter if you're trying

00:11:24.980 --> 00:11:27.220
to win, of course, but the result isn't the point.

00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:29.100
It's the community. It's the shared suffering.

00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:34.279
It's the discomfort. It's the sharing the joy

00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:36.200
when you win and the commiserations when you

00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:38.080
lose. Those are all part of the whole thing,

00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:39.980
and it's a shame that we've got away from that.

00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:46.899
Yeah. I know a lot of this has to do with the

00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:50.419
advent of the cell phone. you know, kids spending

00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:52.899
so much time in video games and on their cell

00:11:52.899 --> 00:11:56.679
phones. I mean, my mother used to refer to us

00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:00.480
as feral children, you know, because she'd, like,

00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.740
open the door in the morning, you know, or we'd,

00:12:03.820 --> 00:12:06.899
you know, sneak out. And we wouldn't come back,

00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:10.919
you know, until, you know, it was dark. And we'd

00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:14.139
come back dirty and bruised and bloodied and,

00:12:14.139 --> 00:12:19.190
you know, covered with horse hair. You know,

00:12:19.190 --> 00:12:23.950
cuts and scrapes from blackberry bushes and crashing

00:12:23.950 --> 00:12:29.409
on our bikes. And I just remember my upbringing

00:12:29.409 --> 00:12:33.730
was mostly outdoors, you know, when I was a kid

00:12:33.730 --> 00:12:37.049
and when I was growing up. And that was, you

00:12:37.049 --> 00:12:43.629
know, that was encouraged. Now that I think back

00:12:43.629 --> 00:12:46.330
on it, I don't remember it being so much encouraged

00:12:46.330 --> 00:12:52.230
as that was just what we did. The out -of -doors

00:12:52.230 --> 00:12:57.110
was full of so much wonder, and I loved exploring.

00:12:58.870 --> 00:13:02.389
When we moved to Oregon, my dad bought a five

00:13:02.389 --> 00:13:07.049
-acre plot in the middle of the woods and built

00:13:07.049 --> 00:13:10.929
from the ground up, literally, the home that

00:13:10.929 --> 00:13:15.659
we lived in. And I can remember the hours and

00:13:15.659 --> 00:13:18.639
hours spent exploring that five acres and the

00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.860
surrounding, you know, thousands of acres of

00:13:21.860 --> 00:13:26.580
watershed that we lived in the middle of. It

00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:32.179
was just a magic, magical and fascinating upbringing.

00:13:33.580 --> 00:13:35.860
I grew up on a farm. My dad was a veterinary

00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:38.059
surgeon, so I had a very similar thing. I've

00:13:38.059 --> 00:13:40.120
used the term feral very often. We were Lord

00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:42.740
of the Flies during the day and then came back

00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:45.779
to the bed at night. What about career aspirations?

00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:47.399
What were you dreaming of becoming when you were

00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:49.320
still in school? Was it law enforcement or was

00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:55.220
it something else? That's a weird thing for me

00:13:55.220 --> 00:13:59.320
anyway because I never had something I wanted

00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.759
to be ever since I can remember. Thinking about

00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:05.759
careers, the idea of having a career and being

00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:11.200
responsible is always a little bit frightening

00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.220
for me. The idea that I might someday have to

00:14:15.220 --> 00:14:20.799
take care of myself or other people was completely

00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:26.679
foreign. I honestly dreaded the day that I was

00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:28.399
going to graduate from high school because I

00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:30.940
really had no idea what I was going to do. I

00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:35.399
mean, my parents, you know, they told me they

00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:39.360
would, you know, help us through college. But

00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.399
they ended up getting divorced about the time

00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:49.679
I got, you know, ready to graduate. And so I

00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:54.899
was, you know, they weren't in any position to

00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:57.659
help me go through college. And frankly, I was

00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:01.509
sort of surprised given my... You know, lack

00:15:01.509 --> 00:15:03.509
of attendance my senior year in high school.

00:15:03.529 --> 00:15:05.730
I was surprised they even gave me a high school

00:15:05.730 --> 00:15:09.590
diploma. I think that I just, you know, they

00:15:09.590 --> 00:15:11.950
just accidentally, I think, left it in the pile.

00:15:12.470 --> 00:15:14.409
You know, when they passed him out, I didn't

00:15:14.409 --> 00:15:20.190
go to my graduation ceremony. I, you know, they

00:15:20.190 --> 00:15:23.529
mailed it to me a few months later. I'd assumed

00:15:23.529 --> 00:15:29.759
I'd passed, but I... I did little or no actual

00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.500
coursework during that final year of high school.

00:15:33.299 --> 00:15:36.200
That I'm sitting here in front of you now today

00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:42.879
is a miracle. I should have never accomplished

00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:50.399
much of anything if it was just based on my planning

00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.080
or anticipation of some sort of career after

00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.250
I got out of high school. So walk me through

00:15:57.250 --> 00:15:59.889
that, Ben. You graduate, kind of -ish, maybe.

00:16:00.029 --> 00:16:02.409
You get this diploma in the mail. You're like,

00:16:02.470 --> 00:16:04.250
okay, well, I guess I did then. Where does that

00:16:04.250 --> 00:16:08.990
lead you initially? Well, I had a buddy. I had

00:16:08.990 --> 00:16:12.289
a lot of friends and acquaintances at the time

00:16:12.289 --> 00:16:16.950
from school. And he worked on the local ambulance.

00:16:17.029 --> 00:16:20.549
This was in Flagstaff, Arizona. And he used to

00:16:20.549 --> 00:16:25.730
come back to the group after. I shift on the

00:16:25.730 --> 00:16:28.289
ambulance and regale us with all of the tales

00:16:28.289 --> 00:16:31.549
of, you know, zooming all over town with lights

00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:34.750
and siren and going to traffic accidents. And,

00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:42.049
you know, it sounded very exciting. And I thought,

00:16:42.070 --> 00:16:45.750
man, it's outdoors. You're kind of your own,

00:16:45.870 --> 00:16:48.549
you know, you don't have like a boss, you know,

00:16:48.549 --> 00:16:52.029
standing over you telling you what to do. You

00:16:52.029 --> 00:16:55.419
make your own decisions, you know. when, you

00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:59.799
know, the decision needs to be made. And the

00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:02.740
excitement of it just really appealed to me.

00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:07.200
And I asked him how, you know, what qualified

00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.079
it? How did he get into it? And he said, well,

00:17:09.099 --> 00:17:12.500
I went and took an EMT class. And so this was

00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:18.539
back in 1975, not 76. And I took a community

00:17:18.539 --> 00:17:23.819
college EMT class, really the first. academics

00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:28.819
I ever spent any real time studying and paying

00:17:28.819 --> 00:17:33.720
attention to, aside from just my love of reading.

00:17:35.019 --> 00:17:39.599
And I passed, got my EMT, and at the time my

00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:42.960
mother was working as a nurse in Southern Inyo

00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:46.000
County Community Hospital, which is in Inyo County,

00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:48.539
which is between the White Mountains and the

00:17:48.539 --> 00:17:52.000
Sierras. And the eastern side of California,

00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:57.019
it's just a beautiful, breathtakingly beautiful

00:17:57.019 --> 00:18:02.359
area, but very sparsely populated, very small

00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:04.180
hospital. And she said, well, we've got this

00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:06.140
ambulance company up here that's always looking

00:18:06.140 --> 00:18:09.319
for people, a little private ambulance company

00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:12.359
that was based in a larger town to the south,

00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:14.539
but had a satellite station at one point. And

00:18:14.539 --> 00:18:17.880
she said, they'll, you know, as long as you've

00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:21.309
got an EMT license, they'll hire you. I said,

00:18:21.369 --> 00:18:25.589
well, I hitched a ride with a buddy of mine over

00:18:25.589 --> 00:18:28.730
to California and eventually found my way to

00:18:28.730 --> 00:18:34.890
Long Pine. That was like 1976. I started working

00:18:34.890 --> 00:18:40.769
as an EMT on a little rural ambulance. I just

00:18:40.769 --> 00:18:44.150
interviewed, again, a guy, Kevin Hazard, who's

00:18:44.150 --> 00:18:46.910
a paramedic and became an author. He wrote an

00:18:46.910 --> 00:18:49.309
amazing book called American Sirens about the

00:18:49.309 --> 00:18:52.099
original. paramedics and how that was actually

00:18:52.099 --> 00:18:54.960
out of a place called the Freedom House in Pittsburgh

00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:59.680
in the mid 60s. And they were all African -American

00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.940
men at that point. And it's interesting because

00:19:01.940 --> 00:19:05.079
we think like the genesis of the medic program

00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:09.079
came from L .A., Miami, you know, in the 70s.

00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.160
But actually, it's a decade prior. And as it

00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.940
gained popularity, they actually got rid of all

00:19:14.940 --> 00:19:17.529
the African -American medics. in that program.

00:19:17.690 --> 00:19:19.890
So, you know, it's, it's a story most people

00:19:19.890 --> 00:19:21.210
haven't heard. I'm actually getting one of the

00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:24.289
original men on the show coming up, but that

00:19:24.289 --> 00:19:26.130
being said, so that's kind of the, the origin

00:19:26.130 --> 00:19:28.869
story that a lot of us didn't even realize. Talk

00:19:28.869 --> 00:19:31.430
to me about that world in the seventies though.

00:19:31.509 --> 00:19:33.910
You know, what was some of the, the career calls

00:19:33.910 --> 00:19:36.150
that you remember and what was some of the technology

00:19:36.150 --> 00:19:40.650
you were working with back then? Well, if it

00:19:40.650 --> 00:19:43.630
gives you any idea, one of the ambulances that

00:19:43.630 --> 00:19:46.549
I regularly ran out of was a converted hearse.

00:19:47.089 --> 00:19:52.710
Because many ambulances, you know, I mean, pre

00:19:52.710 --> 00:19:58.950
-hospital care is a fairly recent concept. For

00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:03.569
many years, you know, once they stopped just...

00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:07.720
throwing people in cars or buggies or carriages

00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:12.700
to take them to the hospital. The next, ironically,

00:20:12.700 --> 00:20:18.359
most logical person or enterprise that took people

00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:22.819
to the hospital were the mortuaries, because

00:20:22.819 --> 00:20:26.279
their vehicles were kind of set up to haul people

00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:31.720
laying down. you know, did dual duty, they'd

00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:33.420
take them to the hospital and then take them

00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:36.259
back to the, you know, and have them involved.

00:20:36.619 --> 00:20:40.920
So I actually ran calls out of an old Plymouth

00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:46.220
and an old Cadillac ambulance that had the area

00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:49.200
for the first aid supplies was about the size

00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:54.759
of a, you know, a large first aid kit. And you,

00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:59.359
it actually had recessed rollers in it that you

00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:01.900
could flip up to roll a casket into the back

00:21:01.900 --> 00:21:05.700
when needed and flip the other way so you can

00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:07.900
roll the gurney in, you know, if you had a patient.

00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:18.859
And so we were, and while I was an EMT at the

00:21:18.859 --> 00:21:22.000
time in California, that wasn't required to work

00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.059
on an ambulance. There was actually, there were

00:21:25.059 --> 00:21:28.480
actually rules at the time that allowed someone

00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.279
working to someone to work on an ambulance if

00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:33.720
they worked for a volunteer fire department with

00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.400
nothing more than a an advanced first aid card

00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:42.160
and that could actually be deferred if no one

00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.819
in the department you know had that requirement

00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:48.980
and so we were actually surrounded by a number

00:21:48.980 --> 00:21:53.420
of smaller up in independence in big pine volunteer

00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:57.740
fire department ambulances where the The volunteer

00:21:57.740 --> 00:22:01.619
firefighters had virtually no first aid training.

00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.380
And they were like the original scoop and run.

00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.900
Somebody called an ambulance. They hauled us

00:22:10.900 --> 00:22:14.700
to the location, put them in the ambulance, and

00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:16.500
drove as fast as they could to the hospital.

00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:22.460
And we were like one tier above that. The company

00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:25.259
I worked for required that you... have your EMT

00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:28.759
certification, but often my drivers, you know,

00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:32.940
didn't have EMT certification. They had advanced

00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:37.900
first aid. And when I say advanced first aid,

00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:40.940
I'm talking about the old classic Red Cross advanced

00:22:40.940 --> 00:22:49.279
first aid certification. And I did that for about

00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:53.680
three or four years working in that area. And

00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.339
that county didn't have any paramedics. When

00:22:57.339 --> 00:23:00.180
I first started as an EMT, the closest paramedics

00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:05.160
were in Mono County up by Mammoth. And the only

00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:06.880
reason we knew about them is because we were

00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:11.220
on the same radio system. And so we occasionally

00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:13.400
could hear running calls up in the Mammoth area,

00:23:13.579 --> 00:23:19.119
you know, near that ski resort. But to the south,

00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.460
the closest... Paramedics were in Los Angeles

00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:29.059
County and L .A. proper. And I don't think there

00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:31.900
were even any, the county to the south of me

00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:34.420
where I'm at now, Kern County, I don't think

00:23:34.420 --> 00:23:41.440
they had paramedics until probably the late 70s,

00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:46.660
early 80s. What were some of the notable calls

00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:48.799
you remember from that period of your career?

00:23:51.959 --> 00:23:57.220
Well, the worst calls that we had were usually

00:23:57.220 --> 00:24:01.380
along 395, which at the time was a two lane stretch

00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:06.259
that ran from Los Angeles, Riverside, San Bernardino

00:24:06.259 --> 00:24:10.920
County up to Mammoth, which on the weekends was

00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:14.420
crowded with skiers going up and back from Los

00:24:14.420 --> 00:24:19.859
Angeles. And I know one of my first. interactions

00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:25.740
with LA County firefighters was when, uh, we'd

00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:28.599
have a, like a multi -car head -on traffic accident

00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:32.440
on the weekend. And suddenly I'm surrounded by

00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.700
15 off -duty firefighters because they have,

00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:40.779
you know, a great deal of time off and, uh, lots

00:24:40.779 --> 00:24:44.000
of toys and they would often, you know, be on

00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:45.799
their way up to them as they're on their way

00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:49.750
back. And, uh, They were always kind enough to

00:24:49.750 --> 00:24:52.769
stop and, you know, give us instructions on how

00:24:52.769 --> 00:24:55.309
we needed to be treating our patients, which

00:24:55.309 --> 00:24:59.390
at the time I kind of resented. But, you know,

00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:03.289
looking back on it, most of them had like, I

00:25:03.289 --> 00:25:05.589
don't know, 20 times the training and experience

00:25:05.589 --> 00:25:10.190
that I had. But of course, you know, I was the

00:25:10.190 --> 00:25:11.690
one that was going to have to ride to the hospital

00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:14.690
with them. As soon as we had them loaded up,

00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:17.140
they'd be back in there. their trucks on their

00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:23.380
way back up to Mammoth. But we ran some just

00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:30.619
incredibly difficult traffic collisions. And

00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:34.240
I think maybe it wasn't so much the calls that

00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:36.099
we ran. It was the fact that we lived in such

00:25:36.099 --> 00:25:39.319
a remote area. And if somebody was seriously

00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:42.660
injured, they ended up having to be. transported

00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:46.680
down to usually Longalinda and San Bernardino

00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:51.460
and occasionally into Los Angeles to the Lancaster,

00:25:51.460 --> 00:25:56.500
Palmdale area. So we'd have to take a lot of

00:25:56.500 --> 00:25:58.420
times the critical patients that we picked up

00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:01.960
on the highway, we'd have to take them down hundreds

00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.539
of miles before they could get definitive care

00:26:05.539 --> 00:26:11.599
to larger metropolitan area hospitals. Some of

00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:14.740
them didn't make it. I started with living patients

00:26:14.740 --> 00:26:18.420
in Long Pine sometimes that didn't make it to

00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:22.460
the hospital. And air transportation wasn't well

00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:25.160
available, wasn't nearly as widely available

00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:29.299
as it is today. So a lot of those trips ended

00:26:29.299 --> 00:26:39.809
up being pretty long and stressful. So I'm understanding

00:26:39.809 --> 00:26:42.069
it, right? Because of the nature of the vehicle,

00:26:42.170 --> 00:26:44.670
you weren't able to actually attend to the patient.

00:26:44.730 --> 00:26:47.690
You're basically driving them to the hospital

00:26:47.690 --> 00:26:49.349
and then hoping that when you get there, they're

00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:52.309
still breathing? Well, we could attend to them,

00:26:52.369 --> 00:26:54.930
but we just couldn't. There was no, you know,

00:26:54.950 --> 00:26:58.950
our attendance was pretty limited. Right. You

00:26:58.950 --> 00:27:04.069
know, I mean, if they had an IV, you know, we

00:27:04.069 --> 00:27:07.170
could. you know, adjust the drip, but we had

00:27:07.170 --> 00:27:09.250
no direct communications with any hospitals.

00:27:09.470 --> 00:27:12.009
We had basic first aid supplies in the ambulance.

00:27:12.170 --> 00:27:19.269
So, I mean, I can, and we were the only ambulance

00:27:19.269 --> 00:27:23.750
in the area at the time. And so I can remember

00:27:23.750 --> 00:27:27.049
staying up for, you know, 48, 72 hours running

00:27:27.049 --> 00:27:30.220
calls back to back. Because we were just the

00:27:30.220 --> 00:27:32.599
only, you know, if we didn't come out to get

00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:34.940
people, then no one was going to come get them.

00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:39.759
So how did that lead you to law enforcement?

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.059
Well, I eventually moved from Lone Pine to Bridgecrest

00:27:50.059 --> 00:27:53.539
and for a while also in Mojave, California. And

00:27:53.539 --> 00:27:57.400
I mentioned earlier that we didn't have any paramedics.

00:27:58.610 --> 00:28:01.809
And, you know, the paramedic program had just

00:28:01.809 --> 00:28:07.990
started in Bakersfield when I moved down to Ridgecrest,

00:28:08.170 --> 00:28:12.509
south of Lone Pine. And there were no paramedics

00:28:12.509 --> 00:28:15.450
in the eastern side of Kern County. And Kern

00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:19.730
County, it's kind of, you know, you don't really,

00:28:19.890 --> 00:28:23.410
it's larger than a few states. It's one of the

00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:28.430
largest counties in the United States. I think

00:28:28.430 --> 00:28:30.630
third only behind Riverside and San Bernardino

00:28:30.630 --> 00:28:33.930
that are larger. So it's a massive county. And

00:28:33.930 --> 00:28:38.309
so the eastern portion had absolutely no advanced

00:28:38.309 --> 00:28:41.150
medical, you know, pre -hospital care available

00:28:41.150 --> 00:28:45.950
at all. So I moved down to Ridgecrest and I helped

00:28:45.950 --> 00:28:48.490
start and establish the first paramedic program

00:28:48.490 --> 00:28:54.890
in the eastern Kern County area. The program

00:28:54.890 --> 00:28:59.089
was right out of Squad 51, you know, Johnny and

00:28:59.089 --> 00:29:03.490
Roy in emergency. We had one of those old orange

00:29:03.490 --> 00:29:06.990
core communication boxes to talk to the hospital.

00:29:09.109 --> 00:29:12.529
We had to call in, you know, every time and give

00:29:12.529 --> 00:29:14.490
a patient assessment before we could get orders.

00:29:15.210 --> 00:29:18.950
And even when, you know, working a code, that

00:29:18.950 --> 00:29:21.089
still had to all be, we had to send the strip.

00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.240
you know, the EKG strip to the base hospital.

00:29:26.299 --> 00:29:30.519
It was literally one of the, it was the first

00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:32.980
paramedic program in that part of the county.

00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:36.700
And overall, my certification number for Kern

00:29:36.700 --> 00:29:41.200
County was 30. So I was the 30th medic ever certified

00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.380
in the county at the time I got certified. The

00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:47.339
first to work and transport people to the hospital

00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:52.200
in Ridgecrest. What got me into law enforcement

00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:59.240
was a recognition that I was unlikely to survive

00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:02.660
that job. It was especially working in a private

00:30:02.660 --> 00:30:09.339
ambulance. The hours, the physical strain and

00:30:09.339 --> 00:30:13.900
stress on your body was constant. And back then,

00:30:13.940 --> 00:30:16.740
you know, while fire departments worked, you

00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:19.980
know, they're, you know. a variety of on and

00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:22.119
off schedules, working for a private ambulance

00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:24.180
company at that time. He pretty much worked all

00:30:24.180 --> 00:30:31.460
the time. So, you know, I mean, even when I got

00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:34.480
over to Bakersfield, the only concession they

00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.019
made to that sort of thing in a large metropolitan

00:30:37.019 --> 00:30:41.440
area was we'd work 72 hours on and 72 hours off.

00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:46.079
And that was our schedule. You know, no, that

00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.009
was period our schedule. you know, as long as

00:30:49.009 --> 00:30:52.769
we were there. And, you know, while a lot has

00:30:52.769 --> 00:30:55.829
improved over the years at the time, it was taking

00:30:55.829 --> 00:31:03.890
a toll on me. My back was giving out. I think

00:31:03.890 --> 00:31:07.609
I'm a bit of a hypochondriac, and so it seemed

00:31:07.609 --> 00:31:10.490
like many of the diseases my patients had or

00:31:10.490 --> 00:31:14.730
difficulties I would end up experiencing. And

00:31:14.730 --> 00:31:19.769
back during that period of time, Hospitals weren't

00:31:19.769 --> 00:31:24.390
comfortable with people outside the hospital

00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:27.930
providing advanced pre -hospital care. And so

00:31:27.930 --> 00:31:31.349
we often got into confrontations and arguments

00:31:31.349 --> 00:31:34.349
with the doctors and nurses and the institutions

00:31:34.349 --> 00:31:37.589
that we transported people to because they didn't

00:31:37.589 --> 00:31:41.250
believe we had any business providing the medical

00:31:41.250 --> 00:31:43.609
care that we were providing. And so there was

00:31:43.609 --> 00:31:48.230
that constant tension. You know, between us and

00:31:48.230 --> 00:31:53.890
the facilities and the constant work and the

00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:56.750
lack of sleep, I just knew it was, you know,

00:31:56.750 --> 00:32:00.990
going to eventually kill me. And I thought that

00:32:00.990 --> 00:32:05.890
law enforcement would be a reasonable alternative.

00:32:05.890 --> 00:32:09.049
It had a lot of the same attributes, you know,

00:32:09.069 --> 00:32:12.549
that I liked about being a paramedic with a regular

00:32:12.549 --> 00:32:17.420
shift and the ability to advance. I didn't really

00:32:17.420 --> 00:32:21.799
see any attraction in advancing within a private

00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:26.019
ambulance company and becoming a manager or a

00:32:26.019 --> 00:32:30.660
supervisor in that context. But I saw the hierarchy

00:32:30.660 --> 00:32:34.799
and chain of command in a law enforcement agency

00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.339
as an attractive way to gain knowledge, experience,

00:32:38.779 --> 00:32:42.119
and promote up through the ranks as I did so.

00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:48.140
So crazy that you're talking about 50 years ago,

00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:51.539
and yet the fire services we speak now are basically

00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:54.539
working the same kind of hours. You know, that

00:32:54.539 --> 00:32:59.059
we have on paper a 56 -hour work week, but we,

00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:02.619
because of refusing to acknowledge exactly what

00:33:02.619 --> 00:33:05.039
you could have told the world 50 years ago, this

00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:06.680
is what it's doing to my mind, this is what it's

00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.119
doing to my body, this is what it's doing to

00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:11.309
my relationships. refusing to actually acknowledge

00:33:11.309 --> 00:33:13.289
that and turning their head now we have a massive

00:33:13.289 --> 00:33:15.329
recruitment and retention problem in the fire

00:33:15.329 --> 00:33:18.349
service so what was supposed to be a 56 hour

00:33:18.349 --> 00:33:23.109
work week is now an 80 you know 120 to 104 hour

00:33:23.109 --> 00:33:26.250
work week with the mandatory overtime so you

00:33:26.250 --> 00:33:28.150
know it's funny people sometimes ask me or have

00:33:28.150 --> 00:33:29.970
you got studies have you got data i was like

00:33:29.970 --> 00:33:33.099
well apart from common sense We are not supposed

00:33:33.099 --> 00:33:35.619
to be awake for two, three, four days straight.

00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:37.579
I mean, that's why they use that for torture

00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:42.140
and interrogation. The science is irrefutable

00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:46.039
on how to optimize a human being as a paramedic

00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:48.799
or a police officer or a firefighter. And there's

00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:51.099
starting to be a conversation out of Florida,

00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:52.660
funnily enough, where it's starting to bloom

00:33:52.660 --> 00:33:55.200
here, where they're realizing if you take all

00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:57.160
the money that you're wasting with breaking your

00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:59.819
people and put it in the front. All of a sudden,

00:33:59.859 --> 00:34:01.559
people want to work for you again. Imagine that.

00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:03.680
And you've got a healthier, happier fire service

00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:07.200
and paramedics and EMTs. But it's crazy listening

00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.079
to you talking about that because what you're

00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:12.320
storytelling is something that you guys were

00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:14.480
figuring out 50 years ago. And yet people are

00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.500
still refusing to acknowledge it with all the

00:34:16.500 --> 00:34:18.460
information and the Internet and everything now

00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:20.780
and the science and the proof and the people

00:34:20.780 --> 00:34:24.260
detailing how changing things has worked. And

00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:26.760
it's still like pulling teeth to get people to

00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:29.920
acknowledge. that a human being cannot be worked

00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:32.340
for that many hours, especially sleep deprived

00:34:32.340 --> 00:34:34.440
under the high levels of stress that we're expected

00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:44.619
to work under. I think part of that is an endemic

00:34:44.619 --> 00:34:50.099
fault of the chain of command and the way public

00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:58.480
services promote people, I guess. I've given

00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.659
some thought to this, and it seems like, you

00:35:02.659 --> 00:35:04.960
know, when you get the job, you become good at

00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:10.440
it. And which is, you know, that's the most fun,

00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:15.000
the most interesting thing that you'll ever do

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.639
in your career is that direct hands -on firefighting,

00:35:19.659 --> 00:35:23.719
patient care, law enforcement, whatever. But

00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:27.440
then. when they promote people, they don't necessarily,

00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:30.480
it's hard to promote people that had fun doing

00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:34.199
that because they don't find administrative work

00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:37.739
to be anywhere near as attractive and fun. And

00:35:37.739 --> 00:35:40.900
so I think what you, what you end up promoting

00:35:40.900 --> 00:35:44.699
is people that, you know, maybe don't understand

00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:48.360
the job as well, but, you know, have skill at

00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.960
testing and being administrators, but they never

00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:57.179
really held on to, or maybe never even really

00:35:57.179 --> 00:36:05.659
experienced that, I don't know. Service, the

00:36:05.659 --> 00:36:07.400
way I see it, like actually doing it for the

00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:12.900
right reason. Yeah. And so then you've got all

00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:14.500
of these people that love doing the job, that

00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:19.239
stay at it, that are good at it, but they never

00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:21.659
promote into positions where they can make decisions.

00:36:23.530 --> 00:36:26.150
Maybe it's that they don't spend enough time

00:36:26.150 --> 00:36:33.550
showing the good providers and workers the value

00:36:33.550 --> 00:36:38.570
of having their input into the system as they

00:36:38.570 --> 00:36:42.889
go up through the ranks. Because if there's ever

00:36:42.889 --> 00:36:46.670
criticism I've ever had, and I've probably had

00:36:46.670 --> 00:36:49.210
a lot of it, of the people I've worked for is

00:36:49.210 --> 00:36:50.690
that they've forgotten where they came from.

00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:57.900
They don't appreciate the hardships that we suffered,

00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.920
you know, on the street. And to your point, that

00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:05.980
seems exactly what's happening. It's those people

00:37:05.980 --> 00:37:09.000
that are actually making decisions have forgotten

00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:15.219
that now, when their role at one time was fighting

00:37:15.219 --> 00:37:17.780
for their patients, now they need to fight for

00:37:17.780 --> 00:37:21.679
their... their teams, you know, for the people

00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:24.800
that are actually doing the job just as hard

00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:27.219
as they fought for their patients when they did

00:37:27.219 --> 00:37:31.500
the job on the street. Because it seems to me

00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:36.239
like as you promote and go up through the ranks,

00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:40.159
it becomes more about how to get money, you know,

00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:44.280
and how to check the boxes and make the spreadsheet

00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:48.230
look good. you know, for your department, but

00:37:48.230 --> 00:37:53.289
not necessarily how to do the job, the hands

00:37:53.289 --> 00:37:55.650
-on job that you have to do, you know, down,

00:37:55.769 --> 00:38:00.050
you know, with line staff. Yeah, it's, I mean,

00:38:00.070 --> 00:38:02.090
you're having, you're literally echoing what

00:38:02.090 --> 00:38:04.110
so many people are talking about to this day.

00:38:04.190 --> 00:38:06.309
And the irony is they're not even doing that

00:38:06.309 --> 00:38:08.550
well because if you understand false economy,

00:38:08.809 --> 00:38:11.929
making something look good in a budget year isn't

00:38:11.929 --> 00:38:14.619
actually being fiscally responsible. Figuring

00:38:14.619 --> 00:38:16.780
out, well, what are the downstream costs of all

00:38:16.780 --> 00:38:19.400
these things, realizing that far outweighs the

00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:21.539
savings that you're presenting in that budget

00:38:21.539 --> 00:38:24.079
year, and then going, okay, well, we're bleeding

00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.699
money from, you know, overtime filling these

00:38:26.699 --> 00:38:29.219
spots from training people who then leave our

00:38:29.219 --> 00:38:31.940
agency two, three years later from the medical

00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:34.019
retirements and the line of duty death payments

00:38:34.019 --> 00:38:36.500
and the lawsuits from when we make mistakes because

00:38:36.500 --> 00:38:39.239
we're so exhausted. That's, you know, I mean,

00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:43.679
just to give an example, the overtime. budget

00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:49.219
for LAFD the last four years was 1 .2 billion

00:38:49.219 --> 00:38:53.940
with a B dollars. So right there, oh, we can't

00:38:53.940 --> 00:38:56.059
afford more. Yes, you can. There's your money.

00:38:56.099 --> 00:38:57.760
And that's just the overtime. That's not the

00:38:57.760 --> 00:38:59.280
lack of retention or the other things I just

00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.659
talked about. So even from a budgetary point

00:39:01.659 --> 00:39:04.159
of view, they're doing a terrible job because

00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:06.960
they're not actually fiscally responsible. They're

00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:10.260
not investing taxpayers' money wisely. It's being...

00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:12.440
pissed down you know down the street basically

00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:15.199
so this is what i'm realizing is that yeah you

00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:18.619
can take promotional officer classes and have

00:39:18.619 --> 00:39:20.519
the pieces of paper like you said that allow

00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.059
you to scurry up a ladder but if you don't have

00:39:23.059 --> 00:39:25.500
the moral courage and you don't understand actual

00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:28.039
leadership what that means especially servant

00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:31.000
leadership then you're not actually fit for that

00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:35.800
position at all yeah there were there was something

00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:39.360
A paradigm I noticed early in my law enforcement

00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:43.400
career that always confounded me, and that was

00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:45.960
you would see, you know, as a new cop walking

00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.219
around, you know, the hallways, I would see,

00:39:49.219 --> 00:39:52.860
you know, veteran cops walking up to other veterans

00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:56.480
or, you know, sergeants or lieutenants. And the

00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:59.679
first thing out of their mouth, almost, you know,

00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:03.059
you could predict it, when they started talking

00:40:03.059 --> 00:40:07.780
is they would recite. The number of years, months,

00:40:08.019 --> 00:40:12.760
days, hours and seconds it was until their retirement.

00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:18.179
And I used to think, what the hell is going on

00:40:18.179 --> 00:40:21.400
here? You know, why? And these were all people

00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:24.199
that I looked up to, you know, people when I

00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:26.280
was out in the street, you know, when they were

00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.639
my FTOs, when they were my supervisors, I admired

00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:35.389
them. But I couldn't figure out why. at a point

00:40:35.389 --> 00:40:40.730
in their career when people should be reveling

00:40:40.730 --> 00:40:45.329
in and taking advantage of everything they've

00:40:45.329 --> 00:40:50.789
learned and being proud of that, that all they

00:40:50.789 --> 00:40:54.510
can do is count the seconds until they can stop

00:40:54.510 --> 00:40:58.989
doing it. And that used to drive me crazy because

00:40:58.989 --> 00:41:02.550
it's like this cancer in the department because

00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.920
You know, you gain experience, you get to a point

00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:09.860
where you're good at something and you should

00:41:09.860 --> 00:41:15.679
take pride and joy in that ability. But instead,

00:41:16.099 --> 00:41:21.980
they're so disillusioned with the job that they're

00:41:21.980 --> 00:41:25.039
doing that they can't wait to leave it. And then

00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:28.860
when a young guy like me saw that, I was thinking,

00:41:28.940 --> 00:41:32.360
well, why am I doing this if that's how I'm going

00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:36.019
to end up? And one of the things for me was that

00:41:36.019 --> 00:41:39.599
I vowed to myself I wasn't going to be that person.

00:41:40.139 --> 00:41:45.079
I wasn't going to walk up and say, hey, I can't

00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:47.800
wait to retire to every one of my friends. I

00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:52.219
wanted to be proud of what I did up until the

00:41:52.219 --> 00:41:55.079
point that I left it. And I wanted to regret

00:41:55.079 --> 00:42:00.679
leaving it because I wanted to get to a point

00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.269
where I would. if I had to leave early because

00:42:04.269 --> 00:42:08.989
I had more to do. I had more to teach. I had

00:42:08.989 --> 00:42:19.050
more to share with others. And I lament that,

00:42:19.130 --> 00:42:21.750
you know, I don't see more of that in the services,

00:42:21.869 --> 00:42:24.170
you know, that people, you know, with years and

00:42:24.170 --> 00:42:26.730
years of service aren't held up as examples of

00:42:26.730 --> 00:42:29.670
things that, you know, other younger people could

00:42:29.670 --> 00:42:34.599
be. Because, I mean, if you sit and talk to people

00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.659
with experience, you know, on a day -to -day

00:42:38.659 --> 00:42:42.000
basis, and some of these people you talk to are,

00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:44.699
I have no doubt, extraordinary in the things

00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:48.980
they've, you know, endured and learned. The lessons

00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:52.059
that they have for other people are just remarkable.

00:42:52.340 --> 00:42:54.900
And we just throw them away, you know, we just...

00:42:55.289 --> 00:42:57.389
We kind of use them up and crumple them up and

00:42:57.389 --> 00:42:59.849
toss them in the trash, and they know we're doing

00:42:59.849 --> 00:43:03.769
that to them, and they don't like it. I think

00:43:03.769 --> 00:43:06.530
it's a two -pronged element. It's firstly, like

00:43:06.530 --> 00:43:08.849
you said, the environment. Are they investing

00:43:08.849 --> 00:43:12.230
in their people? Is it a healthy work week? Are

00:43:12.230 --> 00:43:15.170
they promoting people not just on pieces of paper

00:43:15.170 --> 00:43:18.090
but on merit as well? Are they taking care of

00:43:18.090 --> 00:43:20.230
themselves as they transition out into something

00:43:20.230 --> 00:43:22.250
else? Because I was talking to someone this morning.

00:43:22.369 --> 00:43:25.429
There is no VA for first responders. I like the

00:43:25.429 --> 00:43:27.969
term disposable heroes because it's true. You

00:43:27.969 --> 00:43:30.010
walk out the door, don't let the door hit you

00:43:30.010 --> 00:43:31.829
on the ass, and good luck with all those physical

00:43:31.829 --> 00:43:34.230
and mental health ailments that you've got. And

00:43:34.230 --> 00:43:35.889
that's not doom and gloom. That's just a reality,

00:43:36.050 --> 00:43:37.269
and I think it's something that we could work

00:43:37.269 --> 00:43:39.849
on. But then the other thing, which I thought

00:43:39.849 --> 00:43:43.050
was interesting, is that the time that we serve

00:43:43.050 --> 00:43:47.469
is dictated by a pension, not by your desire

00:43:47.469 --> 00:43:49.650
and when that finally fizzles out, whenever that

00:43:49.650 --> 00:43:52.110
is, the organic end of that particular chapter

00:43:52.110 --> 00:43:55.980
in your life. But no, this PERS or CalPERS or

00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:58.900
FRS says, well, you've got to stay here 25 years.

00:43:59.380 --> 00:44:02.260
And then you've got a five -year drop. And it's

00:44:02.260 --> 00:44:03.980
like, well, does that align with when you're

00:44:03.980 --> 00:44:06.179
ready to go and do something else? No, it doesn't.

00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:08.000
So that's when you get these guys with the countdown

00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:11.420
apps. Between those two things, either A, they're

00:44:11.420 --> 00:44:14.380
in an environment that's just not nurturing them.

00:44:14.659 --> 00:44:17.239
I'm not saying it's just the organization. Obviously,

00:44:17.340 --> 00:44:19.880
the person's got to have ownership as well. But

00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:22.159
if they're in a toxic environment that is now...

00:44:22.409 --> 00:44:25.469
beating them down and then they're chasing you

00:44:25.469 --> 00:44:27.829
know a magic date on a calendar for a pension

00:44:27.829 --> 00:44:31.150
that doesn't you know that's not where you get

00:44:31.150 --> 00:44:33.590
excitement performance and it's not when as you

00:44:33.590 --> 00:44:37.369
said you don't get these excited people preaching

00:44:37.369 --> 00:44:39.969
to the next generation about how amazing it is

00:44:39.969 --> 00:44:42.510
to be a police officer or a firefighter you know

00:44:42.510 --> 00:44:44.269
if you're if the rhetoric and i've talked about

00:44:44.269 --> 00:44:47.110
this a lot is well you wait 10 years from now

00:44:47.110 --> 00:44:48.610
you'll be on your third marriage and have an

00:44:48.610 --> 00:44:51.679
alcohol problem That's not healthy rhetoric.

00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:53.800
It's not funny. I know we joke about it, but

00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:56.260
there's nothing funny about that at all. If you

00:44:56.260 --> 00:44:58.059
look at a lot of high -performing teams around

00:44:58.059 --> 00:45:00.199
the world, whether it's in the military or ocean

00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:03.719
lifeguards or in business, they're focusing on

00:45:03.719 --> 00:45:06.139
their rest and recovery, their mental health,

00:45:06.260 --> 00:45:09.079
their physical standards, so they can optimize.

00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:12.900
But holding up on the pedestal the kind of broken,

00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:15.989
burnt -out police officer or firefighter, It's

00:45:15.989 --> 00:45:18.070
a horrible recruitment tool, but it's a horrible

00:45:18.070 --> 00:45:21.510
way of even running an organization. Yeah, I

00:45:21.510 --> 00:45:28.610
agree. So you end up going into the law enforcement.

00:45:29.309 --> 00:45:31.449
Was it Bakersfield that you actually worked in

00:45:31.449 --> 00:45:37.969
specifically? Yeah. While I was working as a

00:45:37.969 --> 00:45:42.489
paramedic, I became a reserve for a period of

00:45:42.489 --> 00:45:46.510
time. And almost as soon as I finished my reserve

00:45:46.510 --> 00:45:51.070
training, I, you know, I tested for full time.

00:45:51.909 --> 00:46:01.469
And back in January 23rd, 1984, I was hired full

00:46:01.469 --> 00:46:03.150
time with the Kern County Sheriff's Department.

00:46:05.090 --> 00:46:07.610
So you mentioned, obviously, private ambulance

00:46:07.610 --> 00:46:09.389
company. It sounded like you were more rural.

00:46:11.150 --> 00:46:13.590
Was the change as far as the lens that you had

00:46:13.590 --> 00:46:16.070
now as a police officer, knowing someone like,

00:46:16.070 --> 00:46:19.469
you know, Bakersfield has poorer areas, has gangs,

00:46:19.710 --> 00:46:21.489
has some, you know, more desperate people in

00:46:21.489 --> 00:46:31.469
society now? Well, like many, you know, sheriff's

00:46:31.469 --> 00:46:34.570
departments, when, you know, when you get out,

00:46:34.650 --> 00:46:36.489
I don't know if it's still that way, but when

00:46:36.489 --> 00:46:40.550
I got hired on. You go through the academy, your

00:46:40.550 --> 00:46:42.789
basic academy. I went through field training.

00:46:45.110 --> 00:46:47.590
After I got out of field training, I was immediately

00:46:47.590 --> 00:46:52.170
transferred into the jail. So I worked corrections

00:46:52.170 --> 00:46:55.769
for probably three years before I, you know,

00:46:55.769 --> 00:47:01.989
got back out on the street. So, of course, they

00:47:01.989 --> 00:47:05.130
do that, or they did that at the time, of course,

00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:07.969
because they needed to staff the jails. No one

00:47:07.969 --> 00:47:10.570
with seniority, you know, or few people with

00:47:10.570 --> 00:47:13.409
seniority wanted to work in the jails. And so

00:47:13.409 --> 00:47:17.010
it was kind of a convenient training ground,

00:47:17.110 --> 00:47:23.750
you know, to kind of temper, you know, the rookies,

00:47:23.750 --> 00:47:25.949
you know, after they got out of the academy with,

00:47:26.070 --> 00:47:28.230
you know, kind of a law enforcement environment,

00:47:28.489 --> 00:47:32.010
the chain of command, you're constantly exposed

00:47:32.010 --> 00:47:37.489
to, you know. uh misdemeanor criminals and a

00:47:37.489 --> 00:47:42.329
few you know hardened criminals but uh it kind

00:47:42.329 --> 00:47:45.750
of teaches you to you know how to deal with that

00:47:45.750 --> 00:47:49.789
element in a kind of controlled environment um

00:47:49.789 --> 00:47:55.630
you know which uh there's you know arguments

00:47:55.630 --> 00:47:58.610
either way but i found it valuable in preparing

00:47:58.610 --> 00:48:01.329
me for the streets when i did finally you know

00:48:01.329 --> 00:48:07.309
get to transfer out but uh Pretty much all of

00:48:07.309 --> 00:48:11.889
my street law enforcement was originally seen

00:48:11.889 --> 00:48:15.929
through that kind of institutional lens of the

00:48:15.929 --> 00:48:19.809
jails. And what about when you actually ended

00:48:19.809 --> 00:48:22.469
up on the streets? Were there any kind of aha

00:48:22.469 --> 00:48:24.909
moments as far as some of the desperation that

00:48:24.909 --> 00:48:27.690
existed behind the facade of modern American

00:48:27.690 --> 00:48:34.559
society? No. Not really. I mean, when you work

00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:39.739
as a paramedic, and I also worked in Bakersfield

00:48:39.739 --> 00:48:42.780
as a medic and a paramedic trainer for about

00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:46.739
probably two or three years. So I had experience

00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:49.659
in the area generally where I was now a cop.

00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:56.320
And it was, you know, I saw the same customers

00:48:56.320 --> 00:49:02.929
just in a slightly different context. What started

00:49:02.929 --> 00:49:06.230
to happen at that point is a recognition that

00:49:06.230 --> 00:49:11.610
whatever humanity, that reservoir of humanity

00:49:11.610 --> 00:49:17.610
I'd managed to save up in my first 25 plus years

00:49:17.610 --> 00:49:22.170
of life was slowly being eaten away by the job

00:49:22.170 --> 00:49:26.550
of law enforcement. When I was on an ambulance

00:49:26.550 --> 00:49:29.780
and working as a medic, people were... They may

00:49:29.780 --> 00:49:32.099
not have been happy, but they were happy to see

00:49:32.099 --> 00:49:37.440
us. We were helping people directly and unequivocally.

00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:42.539
You know, nobody was ever nervous about paramedics

00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:45.980
showing up. You know, nobody looks in the rearview

00:49:45.980 --> 00:49:48.000
mirror and sees an ambulance or a fire truck,

00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:50.679
you know, just driving along and, you know, suddenly

00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:53.260
starts, you know, abiding by the vehicle code.

00:49:56.099 --> 00:50:00.929
It's a completely different. dynamic for interacting

00:50:00.929 --> 00:50:08.570
with the public. And there's a, you know, it's

00:50:08.570 --> 00:50:11.269
I'm sure been described in literature, you know,

00:50:11.269 --> 00:50:15.789
numerous times, but there's a metamorphosis you

00:50:15.789 --> 00:50:19.250
go through where, you know, you start law enforcement

00:50:19.250 --> 00:50:21.670
and, you know, you start to hate the people that

00:50:21.670 --> 00:50:25.150
you're serving because they're all the ones you

00:50:25.150 --> 00:50:28.679
come in contact with. are, you know, victimizing

00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:31.940
other people or they're under the influence or

00:50:31.940 --> 00:50:35.500
they're all at some sort of extremist that's,

00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:38.480
you know, uniformly negative and they do not

00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:40.320
want to see you. They do not want to have anything

00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:45.000
to do with you. And, you know, sometimes you

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:47.340
have to use force against them. You know, sometimes

00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:51.820
you have to hurt them to do your job and sometimes

00:50:51.820 --> 00:50:55.960
they hurt you. And that's, none of that exists.

00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:59.679
very little of that exists, you know, in EMS.

00:51:02.300 --> 00:51:07.659
And, you know, where in EMS you're kind of, like

00:51:07.659 --> 00:51:10.860
I said, there's humanity in helping others, directly

00:51:10.860 --> 00:51:13.260
helping others. And certainly law enforcement

00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:17.719
is helping society generally, but it does so

00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:23.900
by virtue of the police powers to make people

00:51:23.900 --> 00:51:26.690
do things that you know, or either detrimental

00:51:26.690 --> 00:51:30.929
to society, to themselves, uh, you know, or to

00:51:30.929 --> 00:51:36.349
others. And so, uh, that's it. And that, that

00:51:36.349 --> 00:51:39.530
dynamic doesn't like overcome you right away.

00:51:39.610 --> 00:51:41.610
There's, you know, I can't think of any like

00:51:41.610 --> 00:51:44.150
watershed moments where I went, ah, everybody

00:51:44.150 --> 00:51:48.210
hates me. Uh, you know, just cause I'm wearing

00:51:48.210 --> 00:51:52.250
this badge, uh, it, it happens over time. And

00:51:52.250 --> 00:51:56.699
in fact, At one point, I went back and recertified

00:51:56.699 --> 00:52:01.760
as a paramedic just so I could recapture, you

00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:04.539
know, I'd go out and work a few shifts with the

00:52:04.539 --> 00:52:07.179
ambulance company. And, you know, it's just so

00:52:07.179 --> 00:52:09.900
I could recapture a little bit of that, you know,

00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:15.780
quickly draining humanity. And you can feel it

00:52:15.780 --> 00:52:18.619
almost palpably in your attitude towards, you

00:52:18.619 --> 00:52:20.519
know, when you walk into a call, you know, you

00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:25.099
just. you're on edge you're you're expecting

00:52:25.099 --> 00:52:28.480
you know to be treated poorly and maybe even

00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:31.019
somebody trying to hurt or kill you and so that

00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:36.460
over time that's kind of very psychically and

00:52:36.460 --> 00:52:42.460
mentally destructive prior to the shooting in

00:52:42.460 --> 00:52:46.750
97 What was some of the, again, career calls

00:52:46.750 --> 00:52:49.809
or near misses or even loss of colleagues that

00:52:49.809 --> 00:53:01.130
you had in that period? Well, I remember a few

00:53:01.130 --> 00:53:05.449
funerals. I remember losing a friend, Rick McHale.

00:53:06.130 --> 00:53:10.630
He attempted to detain somebody who was mentally

00:53:10.630 --> 00:53:20.409
ill. And he was alone, one man car. The guy overpowered

00:53:20.409 --> 00:53:26.530
him and beat him with his own firearm to the

00:53:26.530 --> 00:53:29.130
point where he was unrecognizable. And I can

00:53:29.130 --> 00:53:32.010
remember going into the hospital and seeing him

00:53:32.010 --> 00:53:35.449
in the bed and thinking, that's not Rick. That

00:53:35.449 --> 00:53:38.809
doesn't look anything like Rick. He survived

00:53:38.809 --> 00:53:41.150
a couple of days and then he finally passed.

00:53:48.300 --> 00:53:54.300
At the time, I didn't really internalize that.

00:53:54.380 --> 00:53:59.059
It was certainly a striking and emotionally draining

00:53:59.059 --> 00:54:15.119
event. But it wasn't until June. of 1987 when

00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:20.480
I was just sitting there doing some paperwork.

00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:27.320
And I saw this motorcycle drive through the parking

00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:30.039
lot where I stopped to do my paperwork. Didn't

00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:31.679
have any headlights on. It's the middle of the

00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:36.219
night, no helmet. So I tossed my clipboard into

00:54:36.219 --> 00:54:39.960
my briefcase and put it in drive and pulled in

00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:46.719
behind him and pulled him over. As soon as I

00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:50.159
got him pulled over, you know, I trained my spotlight

00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:52.099
on him. I started to get out of the car and he

00:54:52.099 --> 00:54:57.460
started to push his motorcycle out of the curtain

00:54:57.460 --> 00:55:00.420
of light that I, you know, has shown on him.

00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:03.679
Got on my PA and told him to stay put, you know,

00:55:03.699 --> 00:55:07.420
not to move. Got out of my car and started walking

00:55:07.420 --> 00:55:09.619
towards him and he again kind of pushed his bike

00:55:09.619 --> 00:55:13.510
out of the headlights. spotlight. And I again

00:55:13.510 --> 00:55:20.929
ordered him to stop. I approached him. He was

00:55:20.929 --> 00:55:24.210
really nervous, sweating. It was a warm evening,

00:55:24.329 --> 00:55:27.230
but he hadn't been doing anything physical except

00:55:27.230 --> 00:55:29.150
riding his motorcycle. So he shouldn't have been

00:55:29.150 --> 00:55:32.849
sweating like he was. And he was obviously, you

00:55:32.849 --> 00:55:34.710
know, he kept looking around, you know, checking

00:55:34.710 --> 00:55:37.690
the area while he was talking to me. I got his

00:55:37.690 --> 00:55:41.900
license or his California ID. rent his license.

00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:49.159
And as I was waiting for the, you know, warrant

00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:53.599
return from the dispatcher, I was just watching

00:55:53.599 --> 00:55:56.800
him. I was thinking, man, if I so much as, you

00:55:56.800 --> 00:56:00.039
know, take a deep breath, he's going to be, he's

00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:02.239
either going to be on me or he's going to be,

00:56:02.260 --> 00:56:04.119
you know, he's going to, we're going to be in

00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:07.239
a foot pursuit. So I started to kind of move

00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:13.329
closer to him. The dispatcher came back 1032F,

00:56:13.570 --> 00:56:16.510
which is the code for a felony, our code for

00:56:16.510 --> 00:56:20.449
a felony warrant. And I didn't answer the dispatcher.

00:56:20.510 --> 00:56:24.730
I didn't react at all because I knew, you know,

00:56:24.829 --> 00:56:28.429
he didn't know if that was a quality of response

00:56:28.429 --> 00:56:31.690
for me or somebody else on the radio. I just

00:56:31.690 --> 00:56:34.789
wanted to get my hands on him before he took

00:56:34.789 --> 00:56:38.650
off. So I moved towards him as I did so. I told

00:56:38.650 --> 00:56:45.119
him he was under arrest. And we started to struggle.

00:56:48.539 --> 00:56:52.139
I was able to get behind him, get him in a carotid

00:56:52.139 --> 00:56:55.159
artery restraint. I don't think they're doing

00:56:55.159 --> 00:56:57.659
those anymore. But at the time, it was part of

00:56:57.659 --> 00:57:05.579
the use of force continuum. He went unconscious.

00:57:05.739 --> 00:57:10.519
I remember I was standing up. When he went unconscious,

00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:13.400
so I let go of him. He fell down to the ground.

00:57:13.500 --> 00:57:15.219
I can remember his head hitting the pavement.

00:57:16.119 --> 00:57:18.820
And I remember thinking, oh, crap, now I'm going

00:57:18.820 --> 00:57:21.440
to spend the rest of the night, you know, while

00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:23.320
he gets checked out in the hospital because,

00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:25.179
you know, I've dropped him and he's probably

00:57:25.179 --> 00:57:32.539
been injured. So I get down. I start to, I get

00:57:32.539 --> 00:57:37.280
one handcuff on one wrist. uh, before I can get

00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:40.239
the second handcuff on him, he just explodes

00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:42.760
underneath me. He's just like a flurry of movement

00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:47.579
and we're, we're wrestling again. And so I get,

00:57:47.599 --> 00:57:49.739
I get, I managed to work my way around behind

00:57:49.739 --> 00:57:54.059
him and I try to, you know, uh, try the carotid

00:57:54.059 --> 00:57:57.340
artery restraint again, but he'd learned, you

00:57:57.340 --> 00:58:00.860
know, he, you know, he knew that if I got my

00:58:00.860 --> 00:58:02.960
arm around his neck completely, he was going

00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:06.400
to be unconscious again. He put his chin down

00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:10.500
to his chest and he began chewing on my forearm.

00:58:11.539 --> 00:58:16.280
And I remember thinking, well, you know, fuck

00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:18.880
that. I'm going to, I'll just break his jaw.

00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:21.659
And I, you know, I started pulling back harder

00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:24.760
and suddenly I felt something. It felt just like

00:58:24.760 --> 00:58:28.000
somebody had shoved a hot poker into my back

00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:30.599
and then through my arm and then into my leg.

00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:36.820
And I realized I'd been stabbed. And, you know,

00:58:36.820 --> 00:58:41.019
we continue to struggle. And I stood up and I

00:58:41.019 --> 00:58:43.820
kind of pushed him away from me. And as he was,

00:58:43.820 --> 00:58:48.760
you know, kind of falling back away from me,

00:58:48.780 --> 00:58:52.820
I drew and I fired. And I remember he said something

00:58:52.820 --> 00:58:56.400
like, OK, OK. And then he took off running across

00:58:56.400 --> 00:59:02.050
the street. And as he ran, I fired again. And

00:59:02.050 --> 00:59:08.670
before he turned right, and the second time I

00:59:08.670 --> 00:59:12.250
fired, he just dropped like he was a sack of

00:59:12.250 --> 00:59:14.969
potatoes, like he was completely limp. But then

00:59:14.969 --> 00:59:18.269
he sprung up again, almost as if I hadn't even

00:59:18.269 --> 00:59:21.829
shot him, and went running down the fence line

00:59:21.829 --> 00:59:26.389
towards the next block. I fired a total of six

00:59:26.389 --> 00:59:29.869
times, seven times. I remember the last time,

00:59:29.909 --> 00:59:32.789
just before he went around the corner, I can

00:59:32.789 --> 00:59:35.730
remember my front sight between his shoulder

00:59:35.730 --> 00:59:38.610
blades. I squeezed off the last shot and he disappeared

00:59:38.610 --> 00:59:42.130
around the corner. At that point, I got on the

00:59:42.130 --> 00:59:45.889
radio and I told the dispatcher, 999, 998, officer

00:59:45.889 --> 00:59:50.309
stabbed, shots fired. I'm in foot pursuit. And

00:59:50.309 --> 00:59:55.050
I went after him. And I got around the corner.

00:59:55.409 --> 00:59:58.579
He was nowhere to be seen. But I saw a couple

00:59:58.579 --> 01:00:03.539
of, you know, teenagers, you know, a few, you

01:00:03.539 --> 01:00:06.519
know, 10, 15 yards away and ran up to them. And

01:00:06.519 --> 01:00:08.380
I says, hey, did you see somebody run this way?

01:00:08.500 --> 01:00:11.519
And I can still remember their eyes were about

01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:15.539
as big around as half dollars. You know, I was

01:00:15.539 --> 01:00:17.900
standing there, a smoking gun in one hand and

01:00:17.900 --> 01:00:21.300
my flashlight in the other. And the kid goes,

01:00:21.380 --> 01:00:23.780
yeah, he went down that alley back there. We

01:00:23.780 --> 01:00:27.570
heard the shots and we're scared as well. go

01:00:27.570 --> 01:00:30.670
home. And I turned around, I went back to the

01:00:30.670 --> 01:00:34.469
alley and at first I didn't see him, but I found

01:00:34.469 --> 01:00:39.429
him about 25, 30 yards down the alley, face down.

01:00:41.469 --> 01:00:45.869
And that was, you know, I put my gun on him.

01:00:45.969 --> 01:00:47.989
I remember thinking, okay, my slides forward,

01:00:48.110 --> 01:00:52.630
it didn't lock back on an empty magazine. So

01:00:52.630 --> 01:00:56.329
I must have at least one round left. And so if

01:00:56.329 --> 01:00:58.889
he so much as moves, that one round is going

01:00:58.889 --> 01:01:03.750
to go into his head. And, you know, he didn't

01:01:03.750 --> 01:01:07.610
move. My backup got me, got there a few minutes

01:01:07.610 --> 01:01:13.590
later. I remember hearing the canine officer.

01:01:13.710 --> 01:01:16.369
He says, I'm with the officer. Looks like he's

01:01:16.369 --> 01:01:19.110
code four. And I remember that I thought at the

01:01:19.110 --> 01:01:22.710
time, well, I'm code four. Yes, I'm standing.

01:01:23.389 --> 01:01:26.269
But I'm definitely not okay. I've got a few extra

01:01:26.269 --> 01:01:32.449
holes in me. And they finally, you know, got

01:01:32.449 --> 01:01:36.250
me, you know, got him cuffed up and started taking

01:01:36.250 --> 01:01:41.590
care of me. And I ended up, you know, being transferred

01:01:41.590 --> 01:01:43.750
to the hospital. I came back to work about a

01:01:43.750 --> 01:01:50.730
year later. And Mr. the suspect didn't survive

01:01:50.730 --> 01:01:57.940
the incident. What happened during that, though,

01:01:58.119 --> 01:02:02.900
you know, as, you know, kind of, you know, violent

01:02:02.900 --> 01:02:06.000
and visceral as that all was, that I was worried

01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:09.300
about afterwards, you know, when I knew I was

01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:15.260
probably going to live, was I was worried about

01:02:15.260 --> 01:02:17.880
the mistake that I had made while I was taking

01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:21.659
him into custody. What we'd learn in the academy

01:02:21.659 --> 01:02:24.500
when you... apply a carotid artery restraint

01:02:24.500 --> 01:02:28.659
is that you, you know, you, once they go unconscious,

01:02:28.820 --> 01:02:32.420
you go down to your knees and then you use a

01:02:32.420 --> 01:02:35.360
very specific kind of type of control hold to

01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:38.760
roll them over on their back and keep them in

01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:43.159
control while you put the handcuffs on. But I

01:02:43.159 --> 01:02:45.519
didn't do that. I just, you know, I did like

01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:48.539
I'd learned in the jail when I worked in corrections.

01:02:49.539 --> 01:02:53.099
You know, I just, you know. rendered him unconscious

01:02:53.099 --> 01:02:56.280
and let go of him. And in a jail setting, even

01:02:56.280 --> 01:02:57.800
though that would have been wrong, even in the

01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:00.739
jail, you know, you've got backup, you know,

01:03:00.739 --> 01:03:03.360
your other officers are around. Usually when

01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:05.599
that happens, there's not a problem with them

01:03:05.599 --> 01:03:09.699
regaining consciousness. But because I didn't

01:03:09.699 --> 01:03:13.800
do that, he was able to regain consciousness

01:03:13.800 --> 01:03:19.420
and, you know, continue the fight. And had I

01:03:19.420 --> 01:03:22.340
done it correctly, You know, I likely would have

01:03:22.340 --> 01:03:26.079
been able to control him. And I was really worried

01:03:26.079 --> 01:03:28.380
afterwards because I thought, man, I'm in trouble.

01:03:28.500 --> 01:03:32.519
You know, I screwed up and somebody's dead. And,

01:03:32.519 --> 01:03:37.380
you know, that's that's not good. So I remember

01:03:37.380 --> 01:03:41.079
when the investigator came in to, you know, ask

01:03:41.079 --> 01:03:42.840
me what happened in the hospital. I'm like, well,

01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:45.239
you know, I told him what I did, you know, and

01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:49.590
I I'm like, you know. am I, I'm in trouble, aren't

01:03:49.590 --> 01:03:52.070
I? And he's like, nah, nah, you're, you're fine.

01:03:52.309 --> 01:03:54.469
He says, that's, you know, that's just the sort

01:03:54.469 --> 01:03:58.230
of thing that happens in, you know, combat. And

01:03:58.230 --> 01:04:03.969
I'm like, okay. And, I mean, I was, on one hand,

01:04:04.010 --> 01:04:06.050
I was relieved to hear that. But on the other

01:04:06.050 --> 01:04:07.889
hand, I still figured that somebody eventually

01:04:07.889 --> 01:04:10.949
was going to read his report and think, oh, well,

01:04:11.070 --> 01:04:14.010
that was, this is fucked up. You know, Morgan

01:04:14.010 --> 01:04:20.469
did this wrong. And now, You know, the consequences

01:04:20.469 --> 01:04:23.090
when you're injured like that are huge. I mean,

01:04:23.090 --> 01:04:29.070
the medical bills, the people that worry about

01:04:29.070 --> 01:04:34.670
you, the public attention. I mean, there's just

01:04:34.670 --> 01:04:37.849
so much energy that is expended when somebody

01:04:37.849 --> 01:04:42.530
in public service is injured to feel, to be responsible

01:04:42.530 --> 01:04:45.710
for all of that consequence. just weighed on

01:04:45.710 --> 01:04:49.449
me and i kept thinking this is my fault you know

01:04:49.449 --> 01:04:52.769
if i'd done my job right none of this would have

01:04:52.769 --> 01:04:56.550
happened he would have been in custody we he'd

01:04:56.550 --> 01:05:00.230
have gone to jail and i got home that night instead

01:05:00.230 --> 01:05:05.750
all of this other stuff occurs you know this

01:05:05.750 --> 01:05:10.190
and it when you're in the middle of it you can

01:05:10.190 --> 01:05:13.719
see how monumental at all is how unnecessary

01:05:13.719 --> 01:05:21.539
it felt to me that, you know, that all of this

01:05:21.539 --> 01:05:24.980
should result from something I did wrong. And

01:05:24.980 --> 01:05:28.519
so, you know, I got out of the hospital and time

01:05:28.519 --> 01:05:32.260
went on and I didn't get in trouble. They gave

01:05:32.260 --> 01:05:39.400
me a fucking medal. And I accepted it. But it

01:05:39.400 --> 01:05:46.400
never sat right with me. It was like this thing

01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:51.139
stuck in my mind constantly, you know, that you

01:05:51.139 --> 01:05:56.900
made this mistake. And that led to a lot of kind

01:05:56.900 --> 01:06:00.300
of introspection about, you know, what's my duty

01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:03.340
now? You know, I've recognized this. I've looked

01:06:03.340 --> 01:06:06.760
at this clear -eyed. It's, I don't think, you

01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:09.269
know, I'm having. like an emotional reaction

01:06:09.269 --> 01:06:15.030
to what I saw and did. I think that that, you

01:06:15.030 --> 01:06:19.210
know, was a, you know, reasonable minds can differ,

01:06:19.289 --> 01:06:23.050
whether it's reasonable for me to make a mistake

01:06:23.050 --> 01:06:25.610
in a circumstance like that, such as that. But

01:06:25.610 --> 01:06:32.670
you can't deny that if your failure to do your

01:06:32.670 --> 01:06:36.630
job properly results in something of such consequence.

01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:41.380
that you have some responsibility for that. And

01:06:41.380 --> 01:06:45.219
that led me to, well, how do I, what's my responsibility?

01:06:46.019 --> 01:06:49.440
They're not going to hold me to account. You

01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:52.340
know, the department thinks I'm some sort of

01:06:52.340 --> 01:06:58.280
hero. And, you know, my friends think I am, but

01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:03.719
what do I do? Do I stand up on a pedestal and

01:07:03.719 --> 01:07:06.920
say, hey? You know, you should stone me. You

01:07:06.920 --> 01:07:10.159
know, I'm bad. You know, I did a bad thing and

01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:13.760
I should be punished. And that didn't make any

01:07:13.760 --> 01:07:17.139
sense to me. But what did make sense to me was

01:07:17.139 --> 01:07:21.739
that it should never happen again. And I could

01:07:21.739 --> 01:07:24.019
control that. I couldn't control any of that

01:07:24.019 --> 01:07:27.780
other crap. But I could control the type of officer

01:07:27.780 --> 01:07:32.619
I was. That was like, for me, that was like marching

01:07:32.619 --> 01:07:35.619
orders. That was like a quest I was on then to

01:07:35.619 --> 01:07:39.639
be the best deputy sheriff that I could possibly

01:07:39.639 --> 01:07:44.000
be. And I went about it deliberately. I started

01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:51.059
taking classes. I'd spend my own money. I sent

01:07:51.059 --> 01:07:53.440
myself to gun site in Arizona. I sent myself

01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:57.210
to combat shotgun training. And I paid for all

01:07:57.210 --> 01:07:58.690
of this, like I said, I paid for all of this

01:07:58.690 --> 01:08:01.449
myself because it was, to me, it was my responsibility.

01:08:02.650 --> 01:08:08.090
I became a field training officer. I applied

01:08:08.090 --> 01:08:12.190
for and got accepted to the SWAT team. I started

01:08:12.190 --> 01:08:15.030
taking my prerequisites for law school because

01:08:15.030 --> 01:08:20.449
I thought that would be, you know, like a scholastic

01:08:20.449 --> 01:08:23.729
type of approach to me being better at my job.

01:08:24.380 --> 01:08:27.279
That would again, you know, prevent me from doing

01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:30.260
something stupid like this, like I had done in

01:08:30.260 --> 01:08:35.359
the future. And that I spent the next 10 years

01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:40.539
of my career constantly going through scenarios

01:08:40.539 --> 01:08:43.520
in my head. You know, I learned about visualization

01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:50.619
and I spent every, almost every waking hour of

01:08:50.619 --> 01:08:53.180
not only my on -duty life, but off -duty life.

01:08:53.929 --> 01:08:57.890
gaming, you know, survival of lethal encounters

01:08:57.890 --> 01:09:01.590
at any point in my life, at any point in my day.

01:09:02.489 --> 01:09:07.029
And the whole, all of this became like second

01:09:07.029 --> 01:09:13.289
nature for me. And that, you know, kind of led

01:09:13.289 --> 01:09:19.210
to the event you mentioned earlier, the shooting

01:09:19.210 --> 01:09:21.989
10 years later, almost exactly 10 years later.

01:09:23.300 --> 01:09:25.819
What was the, just before we get to that, what

01:09:25.819 --> 01:09:29.340
was the backstory of the man on the bike? What

01:09:29.340 --> 01:09:32.359
was his criminal history and why was he so nervous

01:09:32.359 --> 01:09:40.079
at that moment? He was a longtime meth addict,

01:09:40.239 --> 01:09:44.500
petty criminal. He had a burglary warrant. So

01:09:44.500 --> 01:09:48.340
he knew, you know, he was going to jail. And

01:09:48.340 --> 01:09:51.180
he was tweaking at the time. He was coming down.

01:09:51.850 --> 01:09:54.750
He was still under the influence of methamphetamine,

01:09:54.770 --> 01:09:56.909
but he was probably going to be needing one soon

01:09:56.909 --> 01:09:59.970
to, you know, get his blood levels back up. So

01:09:59.970 --> 01:10:02.529
he was in that stage where they get where they're

01:10:02.529 --> 01:10:05.590
all, you know, fidgety and nervous, even, you

01:10:05.590 --> 01:10:09.909
know, if nothing else is happening. So, yeah,

01:10:09.949 --> 01:10:15.750
21 years old, local family, you know, local known

01:10:15.750 --> 01:10:21.350
criminal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get to that.

01:10:21.390 --> 01:10:24.550
But I mean, obviously, you know, the backstory

01:10:24.550 --> 01:10:27.210
of how these young men get to this point is also,

01:10:27.229 --> 01:10:29.050
you know, an important part of this conversation.

01:10:29.189 --> 01:10:31.069
And it seems like even back then, when you're

01:10:31.069 --> 01:10:33.350
looking in the mirror and not feeling comfortable

01:10:33.350 --> 01:10:35.770
with the, you know, the applause and the medals,

01:10:35.869 --> 01:10:38.510
this is, you know, that shared humanity and knowing

01:10:38.510 --> 01:10:41.949
that all of us are on this path until it bifurcates

01:10:41.949 --> 01:10:44.069
and sends some on a good path and some on a bad

01:10:44.069 --> 01:10:46.989
path. So with that being said, talk to me about

01:10:46.989 --> 01:10:57.060
April 13th, 1997. Okay, well, that was my first

01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:00.420
night with a brand new trainee. I'd just gotten

01:11:00.420 --> 01:11:03.079
back from the Baker to Vegas race like the day

01:11:03.079 --> 01:11:07.079
before. In the previous three months, my wife

01:11:07.079 --> 01:11:12.100
and I had run like three trail marathons. That's

01:11:12.100 --> 01:11:23.570
what we did for fun was run long distances. I'm

01:11:23.570 --> 01:11:25.609
sure you probably, you probably heard of the

01:11:25.609 --> 01:11:28.869
Baker to Vegas race. That's a 120 mile relay

01:11:28.869 --> 01:11:31.270
that goes from Baker, California to Las Vegas.

01:11:31.409 --> 01:11:35.470
And I was part of the sheriff's team, you know,

01:11:35.470 --> 01:11:38.229
that ran, you know, the race every year. And

01:11:38.229 --> 01:11:42.750
so, like I said, I just finished my leg of that.

01:11:42.949 --> 01:11:46.529
So suffice to say at the time I was in pretty

01:11:46.529 --> 01:11:50.640
good physical condition. I was, you know, Like

01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:52.359
I said, a field training officer. I was on the

01:11:52.359 --> 01:12:01.680
SWAT team. Brand new trainee. Well, I say brand

01:12:01.680 --> 01:12:05.260
new. He was, Dave had actually been in court

01:12:05.260 --> 01:12:08.100
services for a number of years. And he was transferring

01:12:08.100 --> 01:12:11.539
out to go to a substation and work the streets.

01:12:12.739 --> 01:12:15.199
And he'd been through field training before.

01:12:17.689 --> 01:12:19.590
And because he'd been through field training

01:12:19.590 --> 01:12:21.609
before, he wasn't going to go through a full

01:12:21.609 --> 01:12:24.130
program with me like you would normally go through.

01:12:24.909 --> 01:12:27.170
He'd normally like spend four weeks with me.

01:12:27.810 --> 01:12:30.109
And then he'd go to two other training officers

01:12:30.109 --> 01:12:32.329
for four weeks and then come back to me for two

01:12:32.329 --> 01:12:34.670
more weeks. In his case, he was just going to

01:12:34.670 --> 01:12:37.550
spend, I think, four weeks with me and then be

01:12:37.550 --> 01:12:41.189
sent back out on the street. But the thing is,

01:12:41.189 --> 01:12:43.789
is that Dave, you know, he's like I said, he's

01:12:43.789 --> 01:12:47.229
been working court services for the last. you

01:12:47.229 --> 01:12:51.829
know, 20 years of his, 15 years of his career.

01:12:53.130 --> 01:12:55.869
So he hasn't been on the street. You know, he's

01:12:55.869 --> 01:12:58.149
got to relearn, you know, how to use the radio,

01:12:58.489 --> 01:13:03.310
get some deep knowledge, you know, get comfortable

01:13:03.310 --> 01:13:05.670
with, you know, dealing with people in a street

01:13:05.670 --> 01:13:08.649
environment versus, you know, a courtroom environment.

01:13:11.250 --> 01:13:15.699
But as soon as we get in the car, You know, I

01:13:15.699 --> 01:13:18.039
haven't even really been able to talk to him

01:13:18.039 --> 01:13:20.359
that much, find out much more about him. But

01:13:20.359 --> 01:13:24.539
we get a call for shots fired in the area of

01:13:24.539 --> 01:13:27.340
Berk and Madison, right in the center of our

01:13:27.340 --> 01:13:31.680
beat. And it was, you know, shots fired in that

01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:34.180
neighborhood were, you know, entirely common

01:13:34.180 --> 01:13:37.140
at any time of the day, but especially at night.

01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:40.560
So I wasn't particularly on guard, you know,

01:13:40.579 --> 01:13:42.220
when we went down there any more than I would

01:13:42.220 --> 01:13:49.130
normally be. We get to the area. We pull up in

01:13:49.130 --> 01:13:53.470
an old Pinto and parked in front of a residence.

01:13:54.329 --> 01:13:57.550
And you can see two heads in the front seat of

01:13:57.550 --> 01:14:02.529
the car. And so we pull in behind it and light

01:14:02.529 --> 01:14:06.670
it up. And I, you know, say, I asked Dave if

01:14:06.670 --> 01:14:09.630
he felt comfortable, you know, you know, to go

01:14:09.630 --> 01:14:12.550
up and contact the passenger, you know, and I

01:14:12.550 --> 01:14:15.630
told him I would stand up. side and watch, you

01:14:15.630 --> 01:14:19.409
know, so he could get right into it. So he walks

01:14:19.409 --> 01:14:22.050
up to the passenger, you know, motions for him

01:14:22.050 --> 01:14:25.810
to roll the window down. I can see they're having

01:14:25.810 --> 01:14:28.350
a conversation from where I'm at, and I'm back

01:14:28.350 --> 01:14:33.810
probably 30 feet from the car, up kind of forward

01:14:33.810 --> 01:14:38.590
of the passenger or the driver's door. So I can

01:14:38.590 --> 01:14:40.550
see, even see into the front windshield, but

01:14:40.550 --> 01:14:42.390
they can't see me because of this. you know,

01:14:42.409 --> 01:14:45.590
the bright spotlights and high beams from the

01:14:45.590 --> 01:14:49.810
patrol car. And I'm just watching Dave and watching

01:14:49.810 --> 01:14:52.489
the driver, you know, and making sure that, you

01:14:52.489 --> 01:14:55.170
know, he doesn't do something, you know, concerning.

01:14:55.489 --> 01:14:59.649
And Dave gets the passenger out and he starts

01:14:59.649 --> 01:15:03.949
doing a pat -down search on him. As he's patting

01:15:03.949 --> 01:15:06.090
him down, he yells out something like, I've got

01:15:06.090 --> 01:15:10.739
a gun or I've got a weapon. And I'm... And as

01:15:10.739 --> 01:15:15.119
soon as he says that, the kid that he's patting

01:15:15.119 --> 01:15:19.939
down takes off running down the street. And I

01:15:19.939 --> 01:15:23.539
immediately, I'm kind of equal or even to where

01:15:23.539 --> 01:15:25.840
he's at on the street, but I'm kind of on the

01:15:25.840 --> 01:15:27.859
other side of the street or in the far lane.

01:15:28.020 --> 01:15:32.460
And I go running after it. Dave sees the kid

01:15:32.460 --> 01:15:34.779
go around the corner and into a backyard. He

01:15:34.779 --> 01:15:36.420
decides he's going to go around the other side

01:15:36.420 --> 01:15:42.560
of the house to cut him off. I come around the

01:15:42.560 --> 01:15:45.060
corner, you know, swinging wide in the corners,

01:15:45.060 --> 01:15:47.300
cutting the pie, making sure, you know, that

01:15:47.300 --> 01:15:50.000
I, you know, I don't run up on him. And as I

01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:52.239
come around the back of the house, I see him

01:15:52.239 --> 01:15:55.520
trying to force his way into the back door of

01:15:55.520 --> 01:15:59.380
the house. So at this point, I've got, you know,

01:15:59.399 --> 01:16:04.680
kind of a bit of a conundrum. You know, my partner

01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:07.579
says, I've got a gun. So does he mean he's got

01:16:07.579 --> 01:16:10.100
the gun? Did he get the gun away from the kid?

01:16:10.600 --> 01:16:13.920
I don't see anything in the kid's hands, so there's

01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:19.359
no gun in his hands. I'm not entirely sure of

01:16:19.359 --> 01:16:23.699
my backstop. The walls of those houses in that

01:16:23.699 --> 01:16:27.340
neighborhood can be pretty thin. If I fire and

01:16:27.340 --> 01:16:32.579
miss, do I end up hitting somebody in that bedroom

01:16:32.579 --> 01:16:37.930
or room that he's trying to get into? I yell

01:16:37.930 --> 01:16:40.350
at him to stop, show me his hands, turn around.

01:16:40.550 --> 01:16:43.109
He keeps trying to get into the residence now.

01:16:45.550 --> 01:16:48.829
I've got a choice there. Do I use deadly force?

01:16:49.390 --> 01:16:51.829
I didn't feel I had enough to use deadly force

01:16:51.829 --> 01:16:54.869
at that point. No visible weapon. He's not making

01:16:54.869 --> 01:17:00.210
any threatening gestures towards me. But he's

01:17:00.210 --> 01:17:02.649
also not following my orders. Can I let him get

01:17:02.649 --> 01:17:05.270
into that residence? If he gets into the residence

01:17:05.270 --> 01:17:07.359
and shuts the door, what do I do? I've got a

01:17:07.359 --> 01:17:10.859
barricaded suspect. There could be innocent people

01:17:10.859 --> 01:17:16.279
in that house. I made the decision at that point

01:17:16.279 --> 01:17:19.520
to close on him and prevent him from entering

01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:23.380
the house and try to take him into custody. And

01:17:23.380 --> 01:17:25.500
that, you know, at that point, the fight's on.

01:17:25.739 --> 01:17:29.560
He's probably, he's shorter than I am, maybe

01:17:29.560 --> 01:17:37.029
five. eight, maybe 200, 220 stocky. So he's a

01:17:37.029 --> 01:17:41.430
handful. And as we struggle, you know, all my

01:17:41.430 --> 01:17:44.270
equipment, you know, I lose my primary sidearm,

01:17:44.310 --> 01:17:47.149
comes out of my holster, my baton comes out.

01:17:49.729 --> 01:17:56.369
My pepper spray is gone. And as we're struggling,

01:17:56.390 --> 01:18:00.289
I can suddenly kind of feel his hands. Her arms

01:18:00.289 --> 01:18:03.909
going down to his belt line. And the next thing

01:18:03.909 --> 01:18:07.810
I know, there's like this brilliant flash. And

01:18:07.810 --> 01:18:14.189
I can't feel anything. I'm like floating in a

01:18:14.189 --> 01:18:18.090
bath of warm water. I can't feel pressure. I

01:18:18.090 --> 01:18:24.189
can't feel my body. And I remember being just

01:18:24.189 --> 01:18:30.130
incredibly frustrated. I had, you know, I'd been

01:18:30.130 --> 01:18:32.430
training myself for the past 10 years for this

01:18:32.430 --> 01:18:36.609
exact circumstance, you know, the fight for my

01:18:36.609 --> 01:18:38.710
life, you know, against somebody trying to kill

01:18:38.710 --> 01:18:43.430
me. And when you run scenarios, you know, visualizations,

01:18:43.489 --> 01:18:48.689
you always prevail. You never run a visualization

01:18:48.689 --> 01:18:52.449
where you fail, where you die. You always win.

01:18:52.569 --> 01:18:56.710
You're always able to do something. Needless

01:18:56.710 --> 01:19:00.949
to say, so I never like gamed out what I would

01:19:00.949 --> 01:19:03.750
do if I was paralyzed because it's kind of a

01:19:03.750 --> 01:19:12.670
senseless exercise. And that just, it was overwhelmingly

01:19:12.670 --> 01:19:16.670
frustrating. But suddenly I was able to move.

01:19:16.850 --> 01:19:19.810
As soon as I was able to move, I started, you

01:19:19.810 --> 01:19:21.949
know, I remember, you know, feeling around on

01:19:21.949 --> 01:19:24.630
the ground for a weapon because he's standing

01:19:24.630 --> 01:19:29.520
over me at this point. And kind of, you know,

01:19:29.520 --> 01:19:31.739
looking around like he's looking for my partner.

01:19:35.039 --> 01:19:39.859
I can't, you know, I can't find that weapon around

01:19:39.859 --> 01:19:45.439
me. But I reach into my vest pocket where I keep

01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:48.239
my backup weapon. I pull it out as I pull my

01:19:48.239 --> 01:19:52.300
backup weapon and point it at him. He grabs it

01:19:52.300 --> 01:19:54.699
out of my hand, turns around. points it at me

01:19:54.699 --> 01:19:57.720
and pulls the trigger. My backup weapon didn't

01:19:57.720 --> 01:20:00.979
go off. So he cycles the slide, points it at

01:20:00.979 --> 01:20:03.880
me again and pulls the trigger. Again, it doesn't

01:20:03.880 --> 01:20:07.319
go off. He cycles the slide and points it at

01:20:07.319 --> 01:20:10.800
me and pulls the trigger. At this point, like

01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:13.300
I said, I'm out of weapons. So I was able to

01:20:13.300 --> 01:20:16.079
grab a board that was sitting nearby, like a

01:20:16.079 --> 01:20:19.600
long stick or piece of lumber. And I picked it

01:20:19.600 --> 01:20:21.239
up and I hit him in the side of the head with

01:20:21.239 --> 01:20:25.550
it. He kind of, you know, backs away and then

01:20:25.550 --> 01:20:27.810
he comes right back at me and punches me between

01:20:27.810 --> 01:20:32.329
the eyes with his fist. I go down. When I come

01:20:32.329 --> 01:20:35.489
back up, he's gone. And I remember thinking at

01:20:35.489 --> 01:20:37.909
the time, nobody's ever died standing up. So

01:20:37.909 --> 01:20:41.590
I, you know, I stood up and I started moving

01:20:41.590 --> 01:20:45.449
around to the front of the residence. He had

01:20:45.449 --> 01:20:50.710
shot me with a .410 caliber single shot Derringer.

01:20:51.399 --> 01:20:54.920
It was loaded with a high base round of birdshot

01:20:54.920 --> 01:20:58.119
that about 130 pellets entered my neck right

01:20:58.119 --> 01:21:01.699
about here, along with the wadding and kind of

01:21:01.699 --> 01:21:04.140
distributed throughout the interior of my neck.

01:21:05.340 --> 01:21:09.659
My brief paralysis was probably when those pellets

01:21:09.659 --> 01:21:14.640
hit my spine. Miraculously, you know, even though

01:21:14.640 --> 01:21:16.920
I have several that are up against my carotid

01:21:16.920 --> 01:21:20.529
artery and jugular veins, none of them. pierced

01:21:20.529 --> 01:21:23.229
through those large major, major veins or arteries.

01:21:25.710 --> 01:21:28.810
Um, I got around to the front of the house. Uh,

01:21:29.090 --> 01:21:34.090
I, you know, kind of, uh, uh, laid down on the

01:21:34.090 --> 01:21:38.369
ground and a little while later, my good friend,

01:21:38.430 --> 01:21:43.350
another good friend came up to me and, you know,

01:21:43.350 --> 01:21:45.229
he's checking me out and I told him, you know,

01:21:45.229 --> 01:21:49.159
uh, Because I knew this was bad. I told him to

01:21:49.159 --> 01:21:51.920
tell Christy I love her. I'd been married a year

01:21:51.920 --> 01:21:57.260
before to my beautiful bride, Christy. And he

01:21:57.260 --> 01:21:59.659
looks at me and he goes, you can tell her yourself.

01:22:00.479 --> 01:22:07.159
And, you know, I just let him go to work on me

01:22:07.159 --> 01:22:13.180
then. The suspect, Jason, 16 or 17 year old Jason

01:22:13.180 --> 01:22:15.359
Samuel, had run around the front of the house.

01:22:15.880 --> 01:22:19.159
broken in the front door with my backup gun still,

01:22:19.319 --> 01:22:23.640
and got into a struggle with the occupant of

01:22:23.640 --> 01:22:26.000
the house, who was a drug dealer we found out

01:22:26.000 --> 01:22:31.560
later, and actually around discharged from my

01:22:31.560 --> 01:22:33.680
gun inside the house while they were struggling

01:22:33.680 --> 01:22:36.779
over the gun. Eventually, the drug dealer got

01:22:36.779 --> 01:22:39.840
the gun away from him and then threw him out

01:22:39.840 --> 01:22:42.659
the front door to the waiting cops, and a few

01:22:42.659 --> 01:22:48.579
minutes later, he threw the gun out. They loaded

01:22:48.579 --> 01:22:54.699
me up in the ambulance. And as I was en route

01:22:54.699 --> 01:22:58.640
to the hospital, the swelling from the injury,

01:22:58.800 --> 01:23:01.220
you know, was getting worse and worse. And each

01:23:01.220 --> 01:23:06.420
breath, it was like crazy that each breath I

01:23:06.420 --> 01:23:08.619
took, I thought, okay, this is the last one,

01:23:08.659 --> 01:23:12.079
you know, and then I'd somehow managed to squeeze

01:23:12.079 --> 01:23:14.279
another one through there, you know, and that.

01:23:14.750 --> 01:23:18.289
It was like each time was this like final effort

01:23:18.289 --> 01:23:22.890
for me, you know, over and over again as we drove

01:23:22.890 --> 01:23:28.229
to the hospital. And I remember I thought to

01:23:28.229 --> 01:23:30.829
myself, I've got to calm down. I've got to, you

01:23:30.829 --> 01:23:35.770
know, just, you know, relax and, you know, not

01:23:35.770 --> 01:23:38.890
panic. And then maybe it'll be easier to breathe.

01:23:39.289 --> 01:23:44.279
So I closed my eyes. And I just tried to concentrate

01:23:44.279 --> 01:23:49.579
on each breath, which completely freaked out

01:23:49.579 --> 01:23:52.020
the poor deputy that had been sent to ride with

01:23:52.020 --> 01:23:54.840
me to the hospital. He's like screaming at me,

01:23:54.920 --> 01:23:57.579
Tom, Tom, open your eyes. You're going to be

01:23:57.579 --> 01:24:01.760
okay. You can make it, you know. Unfortunately,

01:24:01.939 --> 01:24:04.600
I can't talk at that point, but I just want to

01:24:04.600 --> 01:24:08.399
tell him, hey, Eric, I just need to chill. I

01:24:08.399 --> 01:24:11.739
need to relax. Don't suffocate before I get to

01:24:11.739 --> 01:24:16.359
the hospital. We eventually got to the hospital.

01:24:16.979 --> 01:24:19.739
And the last thing I remember was that bright

01:24:19.739 --> 01:24:22.880
light of the emergency room sign. It's right

01:24:22.880 --> 01:24:25.779
over the emergency room doors. It's big red lettering,

01:24:25.779 --> 01:24:28.180
you know, emergency. They opened the back door

01:24:28.180 --> 01:24:31.600
and they're getting ready to take me out. And

01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:34.180
that I thought, OK, that's I've made it this

01:24:34.180 --> 01:24:40.210
far. I don't I can't take another breath. it's

01:24:40.210 --> 01:24:43.510
up to you guys, you know, it's, I'm in the, in

01:24:43.510 --> 01:24:45.930
the hands of the current medical center, uh,

01:24:46.010 --> 01:24:50.170
emergency department. And, uh, they did a pretty

01:24:50.170 --> 01:24:54.609
good job. Um, they were able to get me intubated,

01:24:54.750 --> 01:25:00.010
um, took me into surgery, you know, were able

01:25:00.010 --> 01:25:04.529
to get a few of the pellets out. Uh, but I needed,

01:25:04.649 --> 01:25:08.729
uh, uh, somebody with a little more experience

01:25:08.729 --> 01:25:11.399
in that. So they, Tossed me in a helicopter and

01:25:11.399 --> 01:25:13.939
flew me down to UCLA where I spent probably about

01:25:13.939 --> 01:25:17.340
a month after that getting additional surgeries

01:25:17.340 --> 01:25:23.619
and getting patched up before they sent me home.

01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:28.939
On the physical side first, what was the damage

01:25:28.939 --> 01:25:33.979
inflicted by that 410 round? It just turned this

01:25:33.979 --> 01:25:36.739
section of my neck into like hamburger. You know,

01:25:36.819 --> 01:25:40.199
it just, all those pellets, it just. gone through

01:25:40.199 --> 01:25:43.420
there ripped all of the muscle tissue and uh

01:25:43.420 --> 01:25:49.399
i remember asking the doctor the head and neck

01:25:49.399 --> 01:25:52.399
surgeon you know and i couldn't talk afterwards

01:25:52.399 --> 01:25:54.220
when i was in the hospital i had to write everything

01:25:54.220 --> 01:25:57.159
down so i wrote to the doctor what's my prognosis

01:25:57.159 --> 01:26:01.439
and he looks at me he goes well we've never actually

01:26:01.439 --> 01:26:04.039
had anybody survive an injury like this so we're

01:26:04.039 --> 01:26:06.899
not sure we're just gonna have to see i'm like

01:26:07.149 --> 01:26:10.310
Thanks, Doc. Thanks to the bedside confidence.

01:26:11.510 --> 01:26:18.229
Yeah. I found out that head and neck surgeons

01:26:18.229 --> 01:26:22.310
don't have to have good bedside manners because

01:26:22.310 --> 01:26:26.430
their patients usually aren't in a condition

01:26:26.430 --> 01:26:30.430
where they care that much. And true to form,

01:26:30.550 --> 01:26:36.300
he was a good guy. He saved my ass. He did not

01:26:36.300 --> 01:26:40.880
pull punches when you asked him questions. Now,

01:26:40.920 --> 01:26:42.439
what about Christy? Obviously, this is going

01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:44.199
to be an important part of the conversation later

01:26:44.199 --> 01:26:47.560
as well. You're newlyweds. This happens. Even

01:26:47.560 --> 01:26:50.039
though she's witnessing you being extremely diligent

01:26:50.039 --> 01:26:54.260
in your preparation for this position, what is

01:26:54.260 --> 01:26:57.159
the impact on her in those initial few weeks?

01:27:03.800 --> 01:27:12.579
It was devastating. It's something that was one

01:27:12.579 --> 01:27:14.520
of the many lessons that that thing taught me

01:27:14.520 --> 01:27:18.939
was it's a lot easier to, you know, get injured

01:27:18.939 --> 01:27:21.500
than it is to watch someone you love get injured.

01:27:22.520 --> 01:27:26.300
I would take that every day of the week, you

01:27:26.300 --> 01:27:28.460
know, getting run over by a car, getting shot,

01:27:28.640 --> 01:27:33.500
getting stabbed. You know, if I turn it around,

01:27:33.640 --> 01:27:35.260
if I thought about it, if I had to watch her

01:27:35.260 --> 01:27:40.260
go through that, no way. That's I would if you

01:27:40.260 --> 01:27:43.100
gave me a choice between the two, I'd say, you

01:27:43.100 --> 01:27:45.899
know, start it up. You know, let's let's go do

01:27:45.899 --> 01:27:49.439
me because I can't I can't watch somebody I love,

01:27:49.520 --> 01:27:55.840
you know, get hurt. And that was really hard

01:27:55.840 --> 01:28:00.920
because, you know, we're our job is to fix things.

01:28:00.979 --> 01:28:05.399
Right. As a medic, as a cop, you're in charge.

01:28:05.699 --> 01:28:10.819
You're supposed to fix everything. The solution

01:28:10.819 --> 01:28:15.279
may not always be elegant or the best one, but

01:28:15.279 --> 01:28:20.479
by God, you're going to come up with one. And

01:28:20.479 --> 01:28:25.039
that was one of the hardest lessons I learned

01:28:25.039 --> 01:28:31.840
over the next 18 years was how little we can

01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:38.060
do to fix other people, you know, and, uh, that,

01:28:38.239 --> 01:28:41.039
but, but of course at the beginning I struggled,

01:28:41.100 --> 01:28:44.020
you know, I, I wanted to fix things. I wanted

01:28:44.020 --> 01:28:50.600
to, I wanted to help her. Um, and I couldn't,

01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:53.439
I, I absolutely, I was the one that needed help.

01:28:53.600 --> 01:29:05.090
And so, um, and in That's also in contrast. It's

01:29:05.090 --> 01:29:09.909
not her job to help me either. But of course,

01:29:09.909 --> 01:29:13.590
I thought my job was to help her and she thought

01:29:13.590 --> 01:29:16.989
her job was to help me. But none of those things,

01:29:17.069 --> 01:29:21.850
they're not even remotely possible. And so you

01:29:21.850 --> 01:29:24.369
have these two people, you know, constantly,

01:29:24.590 --> 01:29:28.989
you know, in conflict and at odds with. their

01:29:28.989 --> 01:29:31.489
primary directive, you know, to help the one

01:29:31.489 --> 01:29:35.810
they love when all along they're neglecting the

01:29:35.810 --> 01:29:38.189
only thing that really matters and that's themselves.

01:29:40.630 --> 01:29:43.569
And that's the kind of dynamic I found myself

01:29:43.569 --> 01:29:49.390
in for the next, you know, 15 years. You know,

01:29:49.409 --> 01:29:54.390
what, you know, and what happens when people,

01:29:54.449 --> 01:29:56.829
when they're, when they're injured or when they're

01:29:56.829 --> 01:30:01.189
in pain. The thing about injury and pain is that

01:30:01.189 --> 01:30:03.970
it's something somebody does to you or something

01:30:03.970 --> 01:30:07.210
that happens to you. It may not be a somebody

01:30:07.210 --> 01:30:09.109
that does it. It could be a rock falling off

01:30:09.109 --> 01:30:12.210
a cliff or, you know, you trip on a crack in

01:30:12.210 --> 01:30:17.069
the sidewalk. But whatever it is, it's not you.

01:30:17.189 --> 01:30:21.090
You're not doing it to yourself. You know, somebody

01:30:21.090 --> 01:30:27.670
else does it to you. You feel the pain, you experience

01:30:27.670 --> 01:30:33.590
the trauma, and then it's human nature, you know,

01:30:33.609 --> 01:30:37.050
when you're trying to react to that, to become

01:30:37.050 --> 01:30:41.149
angry, you know, for this pain that's been done

01:30:41.149 --> 01:30:44.430
to you, regardless of, and it really, trauma

01:30:44.430 --> 01:30:47.489
is like fungible. It doesn't really matter how

01:30:47.489 --> 01:30:52.390
it's caused or what causes it. If you're damaged

01:30:52.390 --> 01:30:56.340
somehow by something or someone, you're going

01:30:56.340 --> 01:30:58.380
to feel pain and then you're going to be angry

01:30:58.380 --> 01:31:02.399
initially at whatever caused that pain. But eventually,

01:31:02.579 --> 01:31:07.699
much like trauma, anger is also fungible. It

01:31:07.699 --> 01:31:10.520
doesn't really care who it eventually focuses

01:31:10.520 --> 01:31:15.579
on. And the amount of pain and anger that Christy

01:31:15.579 --> 01:31:19.500
had experienced in my nearly losing my life was

01:31:19.500 --> 01:31:24.590
earth shattering. I mean, she's a passionate

01:31:24.590 --> 01:31:29.689
person just anyway. And the damage that had been

01:31:29.689 --> 01:31:32.149
done, the pain that had been inflicted on her

01:31:32.149 --> 01:31:38.350
both growing up and with my injury, you know,

01:31:38.350 --> 01:31:42.029
turned her into somebody, you know, that at times

01:31:42.029 --> 01:31:46.470
I didn't recognize at all. And I, because we

01:31:46.470 --> 01:31:50.350
were together all the time, I mean, we had no

01:31:50.350 --> 01:31:54.010
one, no family that lives close. But I would

01:31:54.010 --> 01:31:55.609
argue that wouldn't really make any difference.

01:31:56.289 --> 01:31:59.329
You know, we kind of retreated into our home

01:31:59.329 --> 01:32:05.770
and into our lives. And, you know, we were left

01:32:05.770 --> 01:32:10.789
to deal with the consequences of that pain and

01:32:10.789 --> 01:32:13.869
that anger, which, you know, she often turned

01:32:13.869 --> 01:32:17.890
on me. And, you know, to be fair, she would turn

01:32:17.890 --> 01:32:20.930
it on anything, you know, that, you know, gave

01:32:20.930 --> 01:32:27.550
her an opportunity. But that led to deep depression,

01:32:27.850 --> 01:32:37.510
guilt, drug abuse, addiction. And, you know,

01:32:37.510 --> 01:32:46.470
a lot of this, you know, resulted from her not

01:32:46.470 --> 01:32:49.609
having a difficult time trusting people, you

01:32:49.609 --> 01:32:51.189
know, because she'd been abandoned when she was

01:32:51.189 --> 01:32:58.699
a child. uh, by her mother. And in some ways

01:32:58.699 --> 01:33:01.039
she looked on my injury as an abandonment of

01:33:01.039 --> 01:33:04.140
her. You know, I was, you know, I had been the

01:33:04.140 --> 01:33:06.680
strong, the rock in the relationship, you know,

01:33:06.680 --> 01:33:11.060
working, protecting. And then suddenly I'm like,

01:33:11.199 --> 01:33:14.619
you know, useless, you know, like recovering

01:33:14.619 --> 01:33:19.060
and not able to, to do the things that I'd been

01:33:19.060 --> 01:33:22.590
able to do before. which is a form of abandonment

01:33:22.590 --> 01:33:31.050
again. And in my recognition of that, I saw that

01:33:31.050 --> 01:33:36.010
the one thing that I could do was that I could

01:33:36.010 --> 01:33:39.130
be trustworthy. I could be somebody that she

01:33:39.130 --> 01:33:43.789
could always know, you know, had her best interest

01:33:43.789 --> 01:33:47.090
at heart. One of the consequences of that was

01:33:47.090 --> 01:34:00.000
like, Like I said, she was addicted to barbiturates.

01:34:00.060 --> 01:34:10.479
And I never, until she disclosed that one day

01:34:10.479 --> 01:34:13.340
in a speech in front of a bunch of people that

01:34:13.340 --> 01:34:16.600
we gave after our victim -offender dialogue,

01:34:16.899 --> 01:34:20.899
I never told anyone that. I hadn't gone to a

01:34:20.899 --> 01:34:24.079
counselor. I hadn't told a friend. I told none

01:34:24.079 --> 01:34:30.180
of my relatives. I kept my promise to her that

01:34:30.180 --> 01:34:32.699
I wouldn't disclose that because it wasn't my

01:34:32.699 --> 01:34:45.210
information to disclose. You know, I know it's

01:34:45.210 --> 01:34:47.369
good to talk about things, you know, that we

01:34:47.369 --> 01:34:49.729
struggle with. You know, I know the value of

01:34:49.729 --> 01:34:53.949
disclosure, you know, disclosing our struggles

01:34:53.949 --> 01:34:56.250
to others so we can gain strength from that.

01:34:59.270 --> 01:35:02.109
But for me, it was much more important to maintain

01:35:02.109 --> 01:35:06.829
that trust with her than almost anything else.

01:35:07.489 --> 01:35:11.069
That it was important to me that she know that.

01:35:12.010 --> 01:35:15.329
of every other person on the world in the face

01:35:15.329 --> 01:35:19.489
of this planet that, you know, I was the one

01:35:19.489 --> 01:35:23.069
person that would never breach that trust. And

01:35:23.069 --> 01:35:26.850
so I never, ever, not to anyone said, you know,

01:35:26.850 --> 01:35:34.750
I'm living with an addict. Which, you know, created

01:35:34.750 --> 01:35:40.010
a bit of a conundrum because I came to understand

01:35:40.010 --> 01:35:43.500
that I had to, To take care of her, the first

01:35:43.500 --> 01:35:46.920
thing I had to do was take care of myself. And

01:35:46.920 --> 01:35:49.800
how do I take care of myself if I can't talk

01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:54.760
to somebody about what I'm going through? And

01:35:54.760 --> 01:36:02.020
for me, anyway, the inescapable conclusion was

01:36:02.020 --> 01:36:18.420
that I had to. I had to be happy with myself,

01:36:18.659 --> 01:36:23.779
with my life, with my circumstance. I had to

01:36:23.779 --> 01:36:31.399
be content with it, however it was. And that

01:36:31.399 --> 01:36:36.079
required that I internalize that, you know, we're

01:36:36.079 --> 01:36:39.119
only responsible for ourselves and we can't help

01:36:39.119 --> 01:36:44.380
anybody else. And so, you know, I went back to

01:36:44.380 --> 01:36:48.260
law school. When I got injured, I was in my third

01:36:48.260 --> 01:36:53.359
year. I got on with my life. I continued, you

01:36:53.359 --> 01:36:59.439
know, my physical activities. And I took care

01:36:59.439 --> 01:37:05.020
of myself to the best of my ability by myself

01:37:05.020 --> 01:37:09.239
without sharing any of that with anyone else.

01:37:10.600 --> 01:37:16.220
And over time, I reached a kind of an equilibrium

01:37:16.220 --> 01:37:23.319
where I was happy. It was sad for me to watch

01:37:23.319 --> 01:37:26.180
her go through her struggles, but I knew that

01:37:26.180 --> 01:37:30.640
if I let them destroy me, that if she should

01:37:30.640 --> 01:37:35.720
ever come through to the end of this in one piece,

01:37:35.779 --> 01:37:39.420
that I wanted to still be there for her when

01:37:39.420 --> 01:37:42.500
she... you know, was strong enough to take those

01:37:42.500 --> 01:37:48.399
steps. And so that meant that I couldn't, I couldn't

01:37:48.399 --> 01:37:51.800
pretend to be happy. I had to be happy. I had

01:37:51.800 --> 01:37:57.239
to be satisfied in my life because, you know,

01:37:57.239 --> 01:38:06.960
people know, they know if you're faking it. You

01:38:06.960 --> 01:38:09.000
know, there were times I didn't, you know, I

01:38:09.000 --> 01:38:12.119
wondered whether, you know, anything was ever

01:38:12.119 --> 01:38:14.159
going to work out, whether she was ever going

01:38:14.159 --> 01:38:17.100
to get off the drugs, whether she was ever going

01:38:17.100 --> 01:38:23.840
to be happy again. And I just thought, I can't,

01:38:23.840 --> 01:38:26.640
there's nothing I can do about that. I can't

01:38:26.640 --> 01:38:30.500
change her, but I can be, I can be here. And

01:38:30.500 --> 01:38:35.460
if I'm happy with the cards that we've been dealt.

01:38:36.060 --> 01:38:38.100
Then maybe she'll look at me and think, well,

01:38:38.159 --> 01:38:40.979
maybe it's possible for me to do the same thing.

01:38:44.760 --> 01:38:51.100
And so that was kind of, you know, the. I don't

01:38:51.100 --> 01:38:56.100
know, it was like this. It was like this test

01:38:56.100 --> 01:38:59.619
that I was undergoing during this time to see

01:38:59.619 --> 01:39:07.210
whether or not I was capable of being. content

01:39:07.210 --> 01:39:12.770
with the life that I was living. Sincerely, honestly

01:39:12.770 --> 01:39:17.270
content with it. And, you know, did I always

01:39:17.270 --> 01:39:21.670
pass? You know, was I always, you know, come

01:39:21.670 --> 01:39:23.689
to the right conclusion? Did I always do what

01:39:23.689 --> 01:39:26.770
I was supposed to do? Fuck no. I mean, I made

01:39:26.770 --> 01:39:30.890
so many mistakes. I did so badly so many times

01:39:30.890 --> 01:39:34.069
that, you know, where things could have, you

01:39:34.069 --> 01:39:37.460
know, gone completely into the shitter. that

01:39:37.460 --> 01:39:42.500
I can't tell you. But somehow I always managed

01:39:42.500 --> 01:39:46.859
to keep enough of my wits about me not to destroy

01:39:46.859 --> 01:39:51.140
what we had and to maintain my kind of forward

01:39:51.140 --> 01:39:58.319
and upward momentum in my life. And then we got

01:39:58.319 --> 01:40:03.159
that notice that Jason, the kid that shot me,

01:40:03.180 --> 01:40:09.960
was up for parole. I hadn't expected that to

01:40:09.960 --> 01:40:12.619
happen when it did. He was supposed to be in

01:40:12.619 --> 01:40:14.640
prison for another five years. But what I hadn't

01:40:14.640 --> 01:40:18.100
noticed in the meantime since his sentencing

01:40:18.100 --> 01:40:22.300
was that they passed some juvenile offender statutes

01:40:22.300 --> 01:40:25.000
that allowed him to be eligible sooner than he

01:40:25.000 --> 01:40:27.859
might have been otherwise. And he'd applied.

01:40:28.180 --> 01:40:32.920
And I remember I. I didn't want to tell Christy

01:40:32.920 --> 01:40:35.420
that he was up for parole because anything at

01:40:35.420 --> 01:40:38.079
that point in our lives, we, you know, it'd been

01:40:38.079 --> 01:40:41.460
18 years since the shooting, you know, like I

01:40:41.460 --> 01:40:43.899
said, we'd reached a kind of a, you know, an

01:40:43.899 --> 01:40:46.680
equilibrium in our lives. She was still addicted,

01:40:46.880 --> 01:40:51.119
still angry, still, you know, struggling with

01:40:51.119 --> 01:40:58.539
her demons. But our, our dynamic was, you know,

01:40:58.539 --> 01:41:02.939
you know, I loved her. I was with her and I wasn't

01:41:02.939 --> 01:41:14.500
going to leave. But things like, you know, anything

01:41:14.500 --> 01:41:19.960
could set her off and kind of bring her back

01:41:19.960 --> 01:41:22.560
to that time when I got shot. You know, a knock

01:41:22.560 --> 01:41:26.960
on the door. We might be watching something on

01:41:26.960 --> 01:41:29.079
TV and there'll be an advertisement for a cop

01:41:29.079 --> 01:41:33.010
show. And they'll show some cop on a ventilator

01:41:33.010 --> 01:41:35.909
in a hospital. You know, I mean, any of these

01:41:35.909 --> 01:41:39.189
things could just drive her, you know, into deep

01:41:39.189 --> 01:41:44.710
depression. And I was afraid that this, you know,

01:41:44.729 --> 01:41:46.890
parole hearing thing might do the same thing.

01:41:46.949 --> 01:41:49.090
So I wasn't even going to show up for it. I was

01:41:49.090 --> 01:41:51.189
just going to kind of ignore it, pretend it didn't

01:41:51.189 --> 01:41:55.149
happen. And I thought, well, you know, hopefully

01:41:55.149 --> 01:42:05.939
they'll keep him in prison. You know, the hearing's

01:42:05.939 --> 01:42:08.359
approaching. I get contacted by the DA's office,

01:42:08.460 --> 01:42:13.899
who was one of my law school classmates. And

01:42:13.899 --> 01:42:15.899
he starts telling me about all of the things

01:42:15.899 --> 01:42:18.460
that they're doing to show up at the parole hearing

01:42:18.460 --> 01:42:20.939
and make sure that Jason doesn't get out. And

01:42:20.939 --> 01:42:24.359
I think to myself, crap, you know, I can't let

01:42:24.359 --> 01:42:27.979
them do all this work after everything. that

01:42:27.979 --> 01:42:30.340
the department and the DA's office has done for

01:42:30.340 --> 01:42:32.680
me. I can't let them do all of this and not at

01:42:32.680 --> 01:42:38.260
least show up the day of the hearing. And so

01:42:38.260 --> 01:42:44.720
I tell Christy and, you know, it was like the

01:42:44.720 --> 01:42:51.460
first surprise of many. She's like, okay, well,

01:42:51.560 --> 01:42:55.000
if you think you have to do that, you know, and

01:42:55.000 --> 01:42:58.100
I told her I was going to tell, the board that

01:42:58.100 --> 01:43:02.800
he should stay in prison. And I prepared for

01:43:02.800 --> 01:43:07.479
the day. I, you know, I prepared for his parole

01:43:07.479 --> 01:43:09.520
hearing like I would prepare for a court case.

01:43:09.600 --> 01:43:11.399
You know, I was ready to, you know, I was going

01:43:11.399 --> 01:43:14.140
to tell the board, keep him in prison. You know,

01:43:14.159 --> 01:43:20.720
he should never get out. And I remember showing

01:43:20.720 --> 01:43:24.840
up for the hearing and, you know, they bring

01:43:24.840 --> 01:43:27.699
him in and he's You know, he's not at all what

01:43:27.699 --> 01:43:30.079
I expected. You know, I remember him from the

01:43:30.079 --> 01:43:33.079
trial. You know, this guy, you know, kind of

01:43:33.079 --> 01:43:37.680
husky, you know, by that time, he was 18 years

01:43:37.680 --> 01:43:42.039
old. He was tried as an adult. But, you know,

01:43:42.079 --> 01:43:44.079
he comes into the parlor, he's kind of overweight,

01:43:44.319 --> 01:43:46.479
he's wearing glasses, you know, he's kind of

01:43:46.479 --> 01:43:50.380
shuffling in, his head's down. He looks like

01:43:50.380 --> 01:43:55.369
he's beaten. And I wrote on my legal pad not

01:43:55.369 --> 01:44:00.609
what I expected. And then they proceeded with

01:44:00.609 --> 01:44:02.270
the hearing. And I don't know if you've ever

01:44:02.270 --> 01:44:03.909
been to a parole hearing, but it's sort of like

01:44:03.909 --> 01:44:08.229
this emotional or psychic autopsy. They take

01:44:08.229 --> 01:44:12.430
a human being apart piece by piece. Every fault,

01:44:12.630 --> 01:44:15.529
everything you've ever done, your criminal history,

01:44:15.689 --> 01:44:20.550
your family history. He wasn't old enough to

01:44:20.550 --> 01:44:22.779
have a real significant criminal history. when

01:44:22.779 --> 01:44:25.460
he shot me, but his family history was horrific.

01:44:27.300 --> 01:44:30.739
And then they, they, they go through your, his

01:44:30.739 --> 01:44:34.500
psychological profile. And I don't know if you've

01:44:34.500 --> 01:44:37.340
ever, you know, had a psychological profile done

01:44:37.340 --> 01:44:44.920
on you, but I, I mean, even if you were perfectly

01:44:44.920 --> 01:44:47.220
adjusted, I think that would be a painful thing

01:44:47.220 --> 01:44:50.439
to have to face somebody objectively going through

01:44:50.439 --> 01:44:53.899
every one of your little mental. and faults and

01:44:53.899 --> 01:45:03.180
problems. But they finished that. Then the DA

01:45:03.180 --> 01:45:06.779
got up to give their argument. His attorney got

01:45:06.779 --> 01:45:11.819
up to give her argument. And then Jason gets

01:45:11.819 --> 01:45:16.239
to make a statement. And he talked for a while.

01:45:18.230 --> 01:45:20.829
One of the significant things is that he basically

01:45:20.829 --> 01:45:23.130
admitted to everything that actually happened,

01:45:23.229 --> 01:45:25.449
which he had denied at trial. He said he'd shot

01:45:25.449 --> 01:45:27.869
me in self -defense and that it was an accident.

01:45:31.510 --> 01:45:35.750
Or rather, not self -defense. He said that the

01:45:35.750 --> 01:45:37.449
gun had gone off. He was trying to throw the

01:45:37.449 --> 01:45:40.970
gun away and that it had accidentally gone off.

01:45:41.090 --> 01:45:42.510
Well, if you know anything about Derringers,

01:45:42.630 --> 01:45:45.909
you know, single shot, single action Derringers,

01:45:45.949 --> 01:45:48.300
you know that, you know. You don't accidentally,

01:45:48.460 --> 01:45:51.840
you've got to cock the thing for it to fire and

01:45:51.840 --> 01:45:57.920
you don't carry it cocked. But during the parole

01:45:57.920 --> 01:46:00.420
hearing, he admitted to everything that he'd

01:46:00.420 --> 01:46:03.479
done. He admitted to taking the gun away from

01:46:03.479 --> 01:46:06.640
me, my backup gun and pointing it at me and trying

01:46:06.640 --> 01:46:11.119
to kill me with it three times. Just to jump

01:46:11.119 --> 01:46:12.819
in there, because I'm sure people listening were

01:46:12.819 --> 01:46:15.300
wondering what happened. So explain why he wasn't

01:46:15.300 --> 01:46:19.170
actually able to fire that weapon. The weapon

01:46:19.170 --> 01:46:23.449
I carried as a backup was an HK P7, which has

01:46:23.449 --> 01:46:26.189
a squeeze cocking mechanism on the front of the

01:46:26.189 --> 01:46:30.149
grip. There's really no other weapon like it.

01:46:31.409 --> 01:46:34.430
It's not a safety. It actually needs to be cocked

01:46:34.430 --> 01:46:39.850
with that grip device. And so it takes a little

01:46:39.850 --> 01:46:44.529
pressure. It takes about 12 pounds of pressure

01:46:44.529 --> 01:46:51.770
to actually cock it. And so he didn't know that

01:46:51.770 --> 01:46:54.569
when he was trying to use it. And so he just

01:46:54.569 --> 01:46:57.229
kept racking live rounds out of the chamber,

01:46:57.310 --> 01:47:01.649
you know, when it wouldn't fire. And apparently

01:47:01.649 --> 01:47:03.470
when it did fire in the house, while they were

01:47:03.470 --> 01:47:05.430
struggling with it, he somehow managed to get

01:47:05.430 --> 01:47:09.229
it, you know, cocked accidentally. But that's

01:47:09.229 --> 01:47:18.819
why the gun didn't go off. But he then said two

01:47:18.819 --> 01:47:20.979
things during the hearing that really, really

01:47:20.979 --> 01:47:23.800
stuck with me. One was he said that he'd always

01:47:23.800 --> 01:47:27.180
looked at cops as just another gang. And then

01:47:27.180 --> 01:47:30.699
he told a story about how an officer had come

01:47:30.699 --> 01:47:33.399
in during one of his self -help groups in prison

01:47:33.399 --> 01:47:40.920
and had asked Jason, what are you doing in prison?

01:47:41.039 --> 01:47:44.539
What'd you get convicted for? And he said he...

01:47:44.909 --> 01:47:48.010
He sat down and he told this retired officer,

01:47:48.130 --> 01:47:51.989
you know, the whole story. And he said he thought

01:47:51.989 --> 01:47:54.970
that he would get to the end of it. This ex -cop

01:47:54.970 --> 01:48:01.890
would, you know, be critical of him, criticize

01:48:01.890 --> 01:48:04.149
him and tell him that, you know, he was evil

01:48:04.149 --> 01:48:08.470
and that he'd done a bad thing and that he regretted

01:48:08.470 --> 01:48:12.689
talking to them. But instead, the ex -cop looked

01:48:12.689 --> 01:48:16.039
at him and said, you know, Son, you're not the

01:48:16.039 --> 01:48:18.600
worst thing you've ever done. You know, you you

01:48:18.600 --> 01:48:21.460
can be you can do something different with your

01:48:21.460 --> 01:48:25.140
life. You've made a mistake. You're paying the

01:48:25.140 --> 01:48:28.359
price for that. But that's that doesn't define

01:48:28.359 --> 01:48:34.100
who you are. And I remember him telling the story

01:48:34.100 --> 01:48:36.939
in the hearing and he's just tears are streaming

01:48:36.939 --> 01:48:40.739
down his face and the remorse and regret are

01:48:40.739 --> 01:48:47.899
just palpable in him. And I remember thinking,

01:48:48.100 --> 01:48:54.680
you know, wow, you know, if this guy that he

01:48:54.680 --> 01:48:57.460
didn't even know, you know, had that kind of

01:48:57.460 --> 01:48:59.640
an effect on him, what kind of effect would I

01:48:59.640 --> 01:49:02.340
have if I did the same thing, if I sat down with

01:49:02.340 --> 01:49:09.239
him? And the other thing about, you know, they

01:49:09.239 --> 01:49:12.479
said about. I mean, I thought a lot about this

01:49:12.479 --> 01:49:16.119
after the hearing. He got denied parole at that

01:49:16.119 --> 01:49:20.260
first hearing. And later when I'm thinking about

01:49:20.260 --> 01:49:25.600
it, his statement about him looking at cops as

01:49:25.600 --> 01:49:27.760
just another gang, I thought given his upbringing,

01:49:28.039 --> 01:49:33.800
we were both products of our environment. We

01:49:33.800 --> 01:49:38.800
were both products of who and how we lived and

01:49:38.800 --> 01:49:46.140
the things we learned. His product, his, what

01:49:46.140 --> 01:49:51.399
he became was almost preordained by, you know,

01:49:51.399 --> 01:49:53.920
all of these factors that he had no control over.

01:49:53.960 --> 01:49:58.340
His, his broken home, his father in prison, his

01:49:58.340 --> 01:50:01.560
mother addicted, his being shuffled from foster

01:50:01.560 --> 01:50:06.060
home to foster home, his, you know, lack of education,

01:50:06.420 --> 01:50:11.979
his involvement in criminal gangs. I mean, And

01:50:11.979 --> 01:50:16.039
many of these young men, that's the only like

01:50:16.039 --> 01:50:20.680
recognition and positive influences they have

01:50:20.680 --> 01:50:23.439
in their life are gang members. I mean, when

01:50:23.439 --> 01:50:25.060
you think about how kind of twisted that is,

01:50:25.140 --> 01:50:28.039
at least from our point of view. When I looked

01:50:28.039 --> 01:50:30.699
at all of that together, I thought, well, you

01:50:30.699 --> 01:50:33.560
know, we were kind of both doing what we were

01:50:33.560 --> 01:50:36.819
trained to do by our lives. You know, and we

01:50:36.819 --> 01:50:39.800
were like two, you know, missiles that had been

01:50:39.800 --> 01:50:43.539
fired off. you know, at birth and we were heading

01:50:43.539 --> 01:50:48.739
on this, you know, collision course. And we met,

01:50:48.880 --> 01:50:52.539
you know, behind that house that night. And the

01:50:52.539 --> 01:50:56.220
result was violence. And the more I thought about

01:50:56.220 --> 01:51:00.039
it, the more I thought it would have been strange

01:51:00.039 --> 01:51:06.739
had it not ended the way that it did. So I couldn't.

01:51:07.020 --> 01:51:08.880
I couldn't look at what he had done and take

01:51:08.880 --> 01:51:11.479
it personal because, I mean, he didn't even know

01:51:11.479 --> 01:51:16.119
me. I mean, he hated cops, but he had a legitimate

01:51:16.119 --> 01:51:20.420
reason to hate cops from his point of view. I,

01:51:20.460 --> 01:51:23.340
you know, my job was to catch people that were

01:51:23.340 --> 01:51:26.260
breaking the law, you know, bring them to justice.

01:51:27.560 --> 01:51:30.640
I was doing what I was supposed to be doing.

01:51:32.060 --> 01:51:36.640
And, you know, when I looked at that, I... It

01:51:36.640 --> 01:51:39.899
put me in his shoes, you know, where I had not

01:51:39.899 --> 01:51:44.600
ever really been before. And that coupled with

01:51:44.600 --> 01:51:49.760
the idea that, you know, it would be so easy

01:51:49.760 --> 01:51:54.380
for me to try to be a positive influence on him.

01:51:54.500 --> 01:51:57.100
It would also be really easy to be a negative

01:51:57.100 --> 01:51:59.760
influence. I could insist that he stay in prison.

01:51:59.840 --> 01:52:02.500
I could say that he's evil and that, you know,

01:52:02.520 --> 01:52:04.380
he'll never amount to anything, but he's going

01:52:04.380 --> 01:52:07.340
to get out eventually. And what kind of person

01:52:07.340 --> 01:52:10.079
do I want out on the street? Do I want somebody

01:52:10.079 --> 01:52:14.739
who I've encouraged and who I've at least given

01:52:14.739 --> 01:52:20.020
the dignity of talking to him? Or do I want somebody

01:52:20.020 --> 01:52:23.119
that whenever he thinks about me, all he remembers

01:52:23.119 --> 01:52:27.619
is that asshole at the parole hearing that said

01:52:27.619 --> 01:52:29.399
that he should stay in prison for the rest of

01:52:29.399 --> 01:52:33.319
his life? And the choice seemed really simple.

01:52:35.550 --> 01:52:39.630
I wasn't angry at him. I understood at least

01:52:39.630 --> 01:52:41.850
a little more about where he had come from and

01:52:41.850 --> 01:52:43.909
why he had done what he had done. He had taken

01:52:43.909 --> 01:52:49.869
ownership of it. And I had a chance to do something

01:52:49.869 --> 01:52:53.329
positive in his life. And I had a message for

01:52:53.329 --> 01:52:56.069
him, you know, that I wanted to tell him that

01:52:56.069 --> 01:52:59.069
I had learned over the previous 18 years, you

01:52:59.069 --> 01:53:04.810
know. Living the life that I had lived and that

01:53:04.810 --> 01:53:11.970
there was power in adversity. That the bad things

01:53:11.970 --> 01:53:16.449
in your life can turn into some of the greatest

01:53:16.449 --> 01:53:21.050
assets if you let them do that. And I truly believe

01:53:21.050 --> 01:53:27.449
in that based upon my life with Christy. I saw

01:53:27.449 --> 01:53:33.340
our lives together. Objectively difficult, it

01:53:33.340 --> 01:53:38.119
might seem, as being my greatest strength. My

01:53:38.119 --> 01:53:46.180
love for her felt like the linchpin in my existence.

01:53:47.199 --> 01:53:57.560
And it meant that I had to focus on myself, not

01:53:57.560 --> 01:54:00.560
to the exclusion of her and my love for her,

01:54:00.659 --> 01:54:07.310
but... I don't know, to give it substance, to

01:54:07.310 --> 01:54:13.949
give, to allow her something to, I don't know,

01:54:13.970 --> 01:54:17.109
use as an example or something that she could

01:54:17.109 --> 01:54:22.329
depend on in her life of unpredictability. And

01:54:22.329 --> 01:54:26.270
I saw that in Jason's life. I saw that he could

01:54:26.270 --> 01:54:28.890
take the bad things that had happened to him

01:54:28.890 --> 01:54:33.109
and use them to, you know, talk to other young

01:54:33.109 --> 01:54:36.170
gang members and say to them, hey. You know,

01:54:36.170 --> 01:54:38.369
this is how I've lived my life. And I thought,

01:54:38.369 --> 01:54:42.289
what better credibility than the life he's led

01:54:42.289 --> 01:54:47.489
to bring that message to other people than what

01:54:47.489 --> 01:54:52.510
he's gone through. And so at Jason's second parole

01:54:52.510 --> 01:54:56.109
hearing, I made that offer. You know, I said,

01:54:56.210 --> 01:54:57.729
you know, I told the parole board, I says, you

01:54:57.729 --> 01:54:59.869
know, I'm going to leave the decision in your

01:54:59.869 --> 01:55:04.189
hands, but whatever happens, I want. I want to

01:55:04.189 --> 01:55:06.289
talk to Jason because of these things that he

01:55:06.289 --> 01:55:10.670
had said and the thoughts that I've had since

01:55:10.670 --> 01:55:15.689
his first parole hearing. And they, you know,

01:55:15.689 --> 01:55:18.050
they didn't have any idea what to do with that.

01:55:18.109 --> 01:55:21.489
They're used to, you know, people coming in and,

01:55:21.489 --> 01:55:24.590
you know, pounding the table and say, please

01:55:24.590 --> 01:55:29.789
don't let this person out. They, again, denied

01:55:29.789 --> 01:55:33.510
him parole, but I was left with no way to. You

01:55:33.510 --> 01:55:36.649
know, get in touch with Jason, you know, and

01:55:36.649 --> 01:55:41.050
that was a genuine offer that I'd made. So I

01:55:41.050 --> 01:55:42.890
got a hold of the Department of Corrections and

01:55:42.890 --> 01:55:45.970
I got a hold of the victim witness or victim

01:55:45.970 --> 01:55:56.630
and survivor services for CDCR. And I asked,

01:55:56.630 --> 01:55:58.789
is there a way some way that I could meet with

01:55:58.789 --> 01:56:04.229
Jason? You know, I have a message for him. And

01:56:04.229 --> 01:56:07.170
they put me in touch with a facilitator for a

01:56:07.170 --> 01:56:09.909
program called the Victim Offender Dialogue Program.

01:56:11.449 --> 01:56:15.630
Martina Lutz -Snyder was my facilitator, and

01:56:15.630 --> 01:56:17.890
she started a series of meetings between her

01:56:17.890 --> 01:56:21.810
and I and her and Jason to arrange for this to

01:56:21.810 --> 01:56:24.689
happen, to make sure it wasn't going to be damaging

01:56:24.689 --> 01:56:27.010
for me and it wasn't going to be damaging for

01:56:27.010 --> 01:56:29.850
him and that it didn't create problems for his

01:56:29.850 --> 01:56:34.380
incarceration. And while that was going on, we

01:56:34.380 --> 01:56:38.359
got approached by, or she got approached by a

01:56:38.359 --> 01:56:46.340
CNN production company that was doing a series

01:56:46.340 --> 01:56:48.920
called The Redemption Project with Van Jones.

01:56:49.680 --> 01:56:53.640
And they were interviewing people who were, you

01:56:53.640 --> 01:56:57.680
know, going back into prison and outside of prison

01:56:57.680 --> 01:57:01.659
to talk to people that had harmed them to find

01:57:01.659 --> 01:57:07.449
out. You know, how those dialogues, those conversations

01:57:07.449 --> 01:57:13.029
changed their lives. And I said, sure. Yeah,

01:57:13.109 --> 01:57:17.229
I think there's a good message, and I'd love

01:57:17.229 --> 01:57:21.390
to do it. Jason agreed to do it. The only person

01:57:21.390 --> 01:57:24.550
I had left to convince was my wife, who, you

01:57:24.550 --> 01:57:27.289
know, to go back a little bit, it would be hard

01:57:27.289 --> 01:57:29.750
to understate the amount of hate and anger she

01:57:29.750 --> 01:57:35.119
had for Jason. Just after the shooting, her and

01:57:35.119 --> 01:57:40.560
one of the scout snipers for the SWAT team were

01:57:40.560 --> 01:57:44.560
actually plotting to assassinate Jason without

01:57:44.560 --> 01:57:47.939
my knowledge. I don't know if he was just, you

01:57:47.939 --> 01:57:54.319
know, giving her an outlet for her anger or whether

01:57:54.319 --> 01:57:58.699
they were seriously considering it. But I know

01:57:58.699 --> 01:58:07.720
she was seriously considering it. I mean, her

01:58:07.720 --> 01:58:20.560
anger for him was intense and ongoing for a decade

01:58:20.560 --> 01:58:26.939
or more. So when I came to Christy and I told

01:58:26.939 --> 01:58:29.039
her about the, you know, we were going to do

01:58:29.039 --> 01:58:32.880
this, that I did. was thinking about doing this

01:58:32.880 --> 01:58:37.600
CNN thing, I expected her to, you know, dive

01:58:37.600 --> 01:58:42.119
into depression and, you know, for her anger

01:58:42.119 --> 01:58:45.819
to resurface. But to my surprise, what she told

01:58:45.819 --> 01:58:47.600
me was, you know, if you think this is something

01:58:47.600 --> 01:58:52.600
you have to do, you know, I'll support you. And

01:58:52.600 --> 01:58:58.899
so we started preparing, you know, doing the

01:58:58.899 --> 01:59:02.510
shooting for the documentary. which she didn't

01:59:02.510 --> 01:59:11.789
want to have any part of. And we're coming up

01:59:11.789 --> 01:59:15.829
to the victim -offender dialogue, and the facilitator,

01:59:15.829 --> 01:59:20.770
Martinez, you know, asks me if I need a support

01:59:20.770 --> 01:59:23.470
person for the dialogue. And I'm like, no, I

01:59:23.470 --> 01:59:26.109
should be fine. You know, I'm not really doing

01:59:26.109 --> 01:59:29.520
this for me. And she says, no, you know, you

01:59:29.520 --> 01:59:31.579
should really consider having somebody with you,

01:59:31.640 --> 01:59:33.840
you know, so that you can share that experience,

01:59:34.079 --> 01:59:36.619
you know, so that it because this this is one

01:59:36.619 --> 01:59:38.180
of those things that just doesn't happen that

01:59:38.180 --> 01:59:42.720
often. And you want to be able to talk to somebody

01:59:42.720 --> 01:59:45.300
about this as the years go by and you reflect

01:59:45.300 --> 01:59:48.199
on it. I'm like, sounds like a good idea. I'll

01:59:48.199 --> 01:59:51.920
see who I can come up with. So I'm sitting in

01:59:51.920 --> 01:59:54.720
bed with Christy one night, you know, going down

01:59:54.720 --> 01:59:58.720
my list. You know, people, my short list of people

01:59:58.720 --> 02:00:03.119
that I want to, you know, ask to do this. And

02:00:03.119 --> 02:00:05.140
I asked her if she, you know, what she thinks.

02:00:05.199 --> 02:00:11.720
And she goes, well, what about me? And I was

02:00:11.720 --> 02:00:15.039
like, well, what? You know, I did that. That

02:00:15.039 --> 02:00:16.979
was like the last thing in the world. I expected

02:00:16.979 --> 02:00:20.539
that she would volunteer to be within like even

02:00:20.539 --> 02:00:24.239
20 miles of Jason, let alone, you know, be in

02:00:24.239 --> 02:00:28.020
the same room or anywhere near it. I said, you

02:00:28.020 --> 02:00:31.859
know, sure. I mean, if, you know, if that's if

02:00:31.859 --> 02:00:35.359
you if you want to do that, I said, you know,

02:00:35.359 --> 02:00:38.560
I I'd be great because you're definitely the

02:00:38.560 --> 02:00:43.479
person I'm closest to. And so the day before.

02:00:48.340 --> 02:00:51.060
The dialogue, we had like a dry run where we

02:00:51.060 --> 02:00:55.760
took Christie to San Quentin and, you know. Just

02:00:55.760 --> 02:00:58.800
to experience the whole getting into a prison

02:00:58.800 --> 02:01:01.960
thing and seeing what it's like. And she'd never

02:01:01.960 --> 02:01:06.939
been in one before. And my facilitator was there.

02:01:08.560 --> 02:01:13.479
She had someone with her as well from the program.

02:01:16.140 --> 02:01:19.600
And like, I don't know if you've ever been in

02:01:19.600 --> 02:01:23.760
a prison, but there, this is San Quentin's like

02:01:23.760 --> 02:01:27.939
the archetypal. imposing prison on the planet.

02:01:28.100 --> 02:01:32.180
It's this huge rock and stone edifice perched

02:01:32.180 --> 02:01:34.560
on the San Francisco Bay, surrounded by barbed

02:01:34.560 --> 02:01:40.479
wire and gun towers. It's just imposing. And

02:01:40.479 --> 02:01:43.279
so we bring Christy there the day before, and

02:01:43.279 --> 02:01:45.859
we're walking up from the parking lot to the

02:01:45.859 --> 02:01:51.779
first gates to get in. And literally, you know,

02:01:51.800 --> 02:01:57.729
I'm holding one arm. Or Tina's, or facilitator

02:01:57.729 --> 02:02:01.310
Allison's holding the other arm. And she, it's

02:02:01.310 --> 02:02:04.989
like pulling somebody through like peanut butter.

02:02:05.149 --> 02:02:08.970
She's just, she obviously does not want to do

02:02:08.970 --> 02:02:15.430
this. Everything in her is saying run, get away,

02:02:15.689 --> 02:02:19.729
you know, you don't want to do this. And it's

02:02:19.729 --> 02:02:23.350
funny, we don't. really understand how strong

02:02:23.350 --> 02:02:26.609
people are, you know, until they're, you know,

02:02:26.649 --> 02:02:31.529
not given a choice. And I didn't, I honestly

02:02:31.529 --> 02:02:38.149
had no idea how strong my wife was. I, I had,

02:02:38.149 --> 02:02:42.829
I had hope that she was that strong, but you

02:02:42.829 --> 02:02:46.109
never, you know, everything to that point had

02:02:46.109 --> 02:02:50.689
not pointed. You know, like on a day to day basis

02:02:50.689 --> 02:02:53.250
that she possessed the kind of strength that

02:02:53.250 --> 02:02:57.590
it took to do what she was doing. And then I

02:02:57.590 --> 02:03:00.529
can remember we're holding on to her and we're

02:03:00.529 --> 02:03:02.270
walking up to the prison and all of a sudden

02:03:02.270 --> 02:03:05.409
I can feel her straightening up. And she kind

02:03:05.409 --> 02:03:08.350
of, you know, puts her shoulders back, her chest

02:03:08.350 --> 02:03:12.149
out and she goes, fuck it. And she just walks

02:03:12.149 --> 02:03:15.670
away from me and Allison standing there, you

02:03:15.670 --> 02:03:18.979
know, at the gates of San Quentin. to go into

02:03:18.979 --> 02:03:24.199
that prison. And I was like, completely amazed.

02:03:24.439 --> 02:03:27.479
I had no idea that that was going to happen.

02:03:28.680 --> 02:03:33.539
And I thought, man, I've, I've, I've, I've underestimated

02:03:33.539 --> 02:03:39.079
this woman for the last time. So, you know, we

02:03:39.079 --> 02:03:41.260
go through that the next day, we have the victim

02:03:41.260 --> 02:03:44.260
offender dialogue, Jason comes out, we have a

02:03:44.260 --> 02:03:46.760
great conversation. You know, he tells me that

02:03:47.579 --> 02:03:49.760
You know, I've said things to him that his own

02:03:49.760 --> 02:03:52.739
father had never said to him. He's, you know,

02:03:52.739 --> 02:03:56.779
he's crying. He's he's remorseful. He's and he's

02:03:56.779 --> 02:03:58.619
listening to what I'm saying about, you know,

02:03:58.619 --> 02:04:00.720
because I wanted to tell him about the power

02:04:00.720 --> 02:04:03.840
that he had. I told I told him your adversity

02:04:03.840 --> 02:04:06.220
is like a superpower that you need to grab onto.

02:04:06.640 --> 02:04:09.380
You just need to realize it. You know, the strength

02:04:09.380 --> 02:04:12.619
that you can gain from the things that you've

02:04:12.619 --> 02:04:19.720
gone through. And. He says he understands. He

02:04:19.720 --> 02:04:24.399
keeps apologizing for what he had done. And we

02:04:24.399 --> 02:04:28.140
come to the break. And the producer comes up

02:04:28.140 --> 02:04:30.539
to me and he says, Christy wants to talk to Jason.

02:04:33.880 --> 02:04:43.039
And I'm like, what the fuck? I mean, well, I

02:04:43.039 --> 02:04:45.680
got to hear this out of her mouth, you know.

02:04:45.949 --> 02:04:49.130
Because that doesn't even sound like it's, you

02:04:49.130 --> 02:04:52.270
know, that does not sound like you were talking

02:04:52.270 --> 02:04:55.710
to my wife. Because, I mean, she was even nervous,

02:04:55.789 --> 02:04:58.050
you know, that morning when we came into the

02:04:58.050 --> 02:05:00.789
prison, even after that dry run. She was obviously

02:05:00.789 --> 02:05:03.609
anxious. You know, she didn't want to be there.

02:05:03.689 --> 02:05:07.069
She was scared to death of him and angry at the

02:05:07.069 --> 02:05:13.569
same time. So I go to talk to Christy. You know,

02:05:13.569 --> 02:05:17.109
she's in tears and she says, I'm so ashamed of

02:05:17.109 --> 02:05:21.850
myself. I'm like, what what are you ashamed of?

02:05:23.470 --> 02:05:28.029
She says, I'm I hated him for so long and I didn't

02:05:28.029 --> 02:05:31.770
I didn't know who I was hating. I didn't know

02:05:31.770 --> 02:05:34.189
any of this stuff about his life, about what

02:05:34.189 --> 02:05:36.930
he'd been through. I didn't know how sorry he

02:05:36.930 --> 02:05:39.069
was, how much he regretted what he had done.

02:05:40.079 --> 02:05:41.899
I didn't know all of the things that he'd done

02:05:41.899 --> 02:05:44.939
to make himself a better person. She says, and

02:05:44.939 --> 02:05:48.500
all I did was hate, hate. She says, I want to

02:05:48.500 --> 02:05:52.119
tell him that I forgive him and that I'm sorry.

02:05:58.659 --> 02:06:04.859
I'm like, okay. I'm like, yeah. What am I going

02:06:04.859 --> 02:06:11.939
to say? We come back out, you know, we start

02:06:11.939 --> 02:06:15.119
up the dialogue again. They asked Jason if he,

02:06:15.159 --> 02:06:17.100
you know, minded if Christie spoke with him.

02:06:17.140 --> 02:06:20.960
And he said, that's, he said he agreed to that.

02:06:23.020 --> 02:06:28.100
And I've said this, I don't know, a million times,

02:06:28.180 --> 02:06:31.359
but I will never see another more perfect moment

02:06:31.359 --> 02:06:36.300
of grace than when my wife walked out and put

02:06:36.300 --> 02:06:38.399
her arms around the man that had tried to kill

02:06:38.399 --> 02:06:46.279
me and forgave him. It was, you know, I told

02:06:46.279 --> 02:06:50.119
you that I would never underestimate my wife's

02:06:50.119 --> 02:06:53.720
strength after the day before, but the day after

02:06:53.720 --> 02:06:59.779
just proved to me what an amazing woman she is.

02:07:00.060 --> 02:07:06.199
And, you know, the kind of, Make a really long

02:07:06.199 --> 02:07:10.039
story shorter, hopefully. In the following months,

02:07:10.159 --> 02:07:14.140
she quit. She got off the drugs. It was like,

02:07:14.140 --> 02:07:16.739
and she said it herself, it was like a huge weight,

02:07:16.779 --> 02:07:20.800
that anger and hate. When it was, when she got

02:07:20.800 --> 02:07:22.899
rid of it, it was like this huge weight that

02:07:22.899 --> 02:07:28.500
had been lifted off her shoulders. And she, the

02:07:28.500 --> 02:07:38.029
woman I married was back. Happy, content. Any

02:07:38.029 --> 02:07:40.949
anger she had, you know, before all of this happened,

02:07:41.029 --> 02:07:43.989
you know, with the life that she'd led, that

02:07:43.989 --> 02:07:50.810
was gone. She was happy to be alive, and I was

02:07:50.810 --> 02:07:53.569
so thankful that I was there to witness that,

02:07:53.670 --> 02:07:57.090
you know, that I hadn't, in my attempts to help,

02:07:57.250 --> 02:08:04.170
screwed it up, you know, at some point prior

02:08:04.170 --> 02:08:10.050
to that. It was such an amazing lesson for me.

02:08:12.489 --> 02:08:17.090
Watching the documentary, the Van Jones CNN documentary,

02:08:17.409 --> 02:08:21.409
I sent you a picture this morning of your wife

02:08:21.409 --> 02:08:24.359
hugging Jason. I don't know if I mentioned in

02:08:24.359 --> 02:08:26.640
the text that I was sobbing like a three -year

02:08:26.640 --> 02:08:29.140
-old girl when I was watching it. Because to

02:08:29.140 --> 02:08:32.460
me, especially as we sit here now in, you know,

02:08:32.479 --> 02:08:36.800
whatever it is, March 2026, with the divisiveness

02:08:36.800 --> 02:08:40.859
and more wars starting again and, you know, coming

02:08:40.859 --> 02:08:43.500
out the back end of, you know, the division of

02:08:43.500 --> 02:08:46.039
COVID and the pandemic and the George Floyd incidents

02:08:46.039 --> 02:08:48.560
and, you know, insert whatever you want, you

02:08:48.560 --> 02:08:52.279
know, this... well, we just combat hate with

02:08:52.279 --> 02:08:54.039
more hate kind of rhetoric that we're getting

02:08:54.039 --> 02:08:57.439
at the moment. It is literally what the world

02:08:57.439 --> 02:09:00.140
needs at the moment is to hear stories like this.

02:09:00.199 --> 02:09:02.619
And I've said this many times on here. We were

02:09:02.619 --> 02:09:05.779
left ancient wisdom. If you subscribe to Christianity

02:09:05.779 --> 02:09:09.979
or Buddhism or Sikhism, whatever your doctrine

02:09:09.979 --> 02:09:13.260
is, they're telling us, be kind to each other,

02:09:13.340 --> 02:09:17.180
forgive each other, serve, have community. And

02:09:17.180 --> 02:09:20.090
watching this real time or, you know, real time

02:09:20.090 --> 02:09:22.649
on the film and hearing the backstory and you

02:09:22.649 --> 02:09:24.590
and I talking, you know, a few weeks ago prior

02:09:24.590 --> 02:09:27.050
and hearing the full story of the events leading

02:09:27.050 --> 02:09:31.970
up to this, it was just so powerful because it's,

02:09:31.970 --> 02:09:34.390
you know, it's like that. I'm going to paraphrase,

02:09:34.390 --> 02:09:37.029
but you know, that hatred is a poison that, you

02:09:37.029 --> 02:09:39.050
know, that you keep within yourself. Like it

02:09:39.050 --> 02:09:43.029
just, it only poisons you. And hearing what I

02:09:43.029 --> 02:09:44.810
was wondering that you just detailed that not

02:09:44.810 --> 02:09:49.949
only did this lead to your wife forgiving. Jason,

02:09:49.949 --> 02:09:53.569
but it also helped her heal and forgive all the

02:09:53.569 --> 02:09:56.250
trauma that she experienced when she was younger

02:09:56.250 --> 02:09:59.170
as well. And then hearing the backstory of Jason

02:09:59.170 --> 02:10:02.109
and his trauma. And I would imagine if we were

02:10:02.109 --> 02:10:04.850
able to dive into the backstory of that 21 -year

02:10:04.850 --> 02:10:08.329
-old methamphetamine addict that you had to take

02:10:08.329 --> 02:10:10.770
their life, that you would see a similar thing.

02:10:11.329 --> 02:10:14.560
And so the answer is obviously not. throw them

02:10:14.560 --> 02:10:16.920
in jail you know lock away the throw away the

02:10:16.920 --> 02:10:20.739
key um you know oh your your your friend killed

02:10:20.739 --> 02:10:22.600
me i'm gonna kill them you know like the crips

02:10:22.600 --> 02:10:25.439
and bloods thing but this is the beautiful example

02:10:25.439 --> 02:10:27.979
of what's absolutely needed which is forgiveness

02:10:27.979 --> 02:10:30.020
you know and obviously i'm not pretending that

02:10:30.020 --> 02:10:31.739
that's going to happen overnight it didn't with

02:10:31.739 --> 02:10:35.649
with you and your wife but to hear You know,

02:10:35.649 --> 02:10:37.289
the trauma that you went through physically,

02:10:37.489 --> 02:10:40.189
mentally, your career, your marriage, you know,

02:10:40.210 --> 02:10:43.810
her sobriety, and then leading to this forgiveness

02:10:43.810 --> 02:10:45.850
that healed all three of you simultaneously.

02:10:46.670 --> 02:10:49.350
I mean, I don't know if there's any words that

02:10:49.350 --> 02:10:57.529
can even describe that, to be honest. The, I

02:10:57.529 --> 02:11:09.579
guess the irony about. All of it is that it's

02:11:09.579 --> 02:11:13.359
actually a lot easier to forgive than it is to

02:11:13.359 --> 02:11:18.479
be angry. Anger is your initial reaction to pain,

02:11:18.699 --> 02:11:24.739
and it's also very seductive. It feels good to

02:11:24.739 --> 02:11:29.159
hate the things that hurt us, at least for a

02:11:29.159 --> 02:11:33.640
while. And by the time you're being damaged by

02:11:33.640 --> 02:11:37.359
that hate, you know, you forget that there's

02:11:37.359 --> 02:11:42.159
any other alternative and that's, then it's hard,

02:11:42.300 --> 02:11:45.859
you know, because you've become so invested in

02:11:45.859 --> 02:11:52.140
that anger and that, you know, that you, you

02:11:52.140 --> 02:11:54.680
don't, you think if you let loose of that, there

02:11:54.680 --> 02:11:59.140
won't be anything left, you know, that, and there,

02:11:59.220 --> 02:12:01.439
there's, there are some other episodes in the,

02:12:03.720 --> 02:12:06.319
that Redemption Project series, there's one where

02:12:06.319 --> 02:12:12.840
a mother, her daughter was almost killed by a

02:12:12.840 --> 02:12:20.039
drunk driver. And she wasn't killed, but now

02:12:20.039 --> 02:12:22.699
she's suffered like these lifelong debilitating

02:12:22.699 --> 02:12:29.159
injuries and, you know, a brain injury, I believe.

02:12:30.380 --> 02:12:33.729
And the mother, has to do everything for her

02:12:33.729 --> 02:12:35.770
she has to you know kind of get her up in the

02:12:35.770 --> 02:12:43.329
morning get her through the day and the dialogue

02:12:43.329 --> 02:12:48.229
between the the drunk driver that hit her and

02:12:48.229 --> 02:12:55.090
uh and her and the mother is so painful to watch

02:12:55.090 --> 02:13:00.609
because it's it's cathartic it's helpful for

02:13:00.609 --> 02:13:05.149
the woman that was You know, to talk to the person

02:13:05.149 --> 02:13:11.609
that nearly killed her. But the mother, you can

02:13:11.609 --> 02:13:16.529
tell, has hated this person for so long and so

02:13:16.529 --> 02:13:21.149
hard. And she is reminded so constantly on a

02:13:21.149 --> 02:13:27.630
daily basis of what she's lost that you can see

02:13:27.630 --> 02:13:33.920
that conflict. She can't give into, you know,

02:13:33.920 --> 02:13:38.600
the idea that forgiveness would free her because

02:13:38.600 --> 02:13:42.899
I think she's afraid of not having anything left

02:13:42.899 --> 02:13:48.619
to go on once that anger is taken away. Because

02:13:48.619 --> 02:13:51.920
that's what, it's almost as if that sustains,

02:13:51.920 --> 02:13:56.500
her anger sustains her dedication to her daughter.

02:13:56.579 --> 02:14:02.640
And it's... I mean, I know, you know, I know

02:14:02.640 --> 02:14:06.079
if she could free herself from that, she would

02:14:06.079 --> 02:14:10.840
be happy. But you can't tell people to do that.

02:14:10.939 --> 02:14:13.659
They've got to, just like with Christy, you can't.

02:14:14.140 --> 02:14:17.079
I could have spent 20 years telling her not to

02:14:17.079 --> 02:14:23.119
hate Jason to no effect. You know, and long before

02:14:23.119 --> 02:14:25.520
we got to 20 years, she would have resented me

02:14:25.520 --> 02:14:29.210
to the point that, you know. There's no way we

02:14:29.210 --> 02:14:34.750
could have stayed together for trying to change

02:14:34.750 --> 02:14:41.770
her. But by leaving her alone, by not reacting

02:14:41.770 --> 02:14:50.529
to the anger and leaving mine behind, it allowed

02:14:50.529 --> 02:14:55.689
her the time to heal herself. And in the end,

02:14:55.689 --> 02:15:00.739
the whole thing was her. I was so clueless during

02:15:00.739 --> 02:15:05.420
that kind of stretch of time that it's remarkable.

02:15:07.760 --> 02:15:10.640
I mean, if you'd have asked me beforehand, you

02:15:10.640 --> 02:15:12.479
know, hey, what do you think's going to happen?

02:15:12.560 --> 02:15:14.659
I'd have thought, well, you know, more of the

02:15:14.659 --> 02:15:16.739
same. She's going to be angry, sad, depressed,

02:15:17.079 --> 02:15:22.420
frightened of this guy. But because it was her

02:15:22.420 --> 02:15:25.000
decision, because she was allowed to get to it

02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:30.380
on her own. She owns that. And there's so much

02:15:30.380 --> 02:15:37.399
strength in that ownership. And she had manifested

02:15:37.399 --> 02:15:41.800
in her, you know, once, you know, the whole thing

02:15:41.800 --> 02:15:44.720
was over. Because she knew it. She knew it wasn't,

02:15:44.720 --> 02:15:48.560
she didn't do that because I wanted her to. She

02:15:48.560 --> 02:15:50.880
didn't do it because somebody in society told

02:15:50.880 --> 02:15:53.979
her she should. She did it because she was strong

02:15:53.979 --> 02:15:58.340
enough. to figure it out all by herself. And

02:15:58.340 --> 02:16:05.859
people, they have to get there on their own.

02:16:06.539 --> 02:16:09.060
Otherwise, it means, the journey means nothing

02:16:09.060 --> 02:16:12.500
if somebody else was rowing the boat. You know,

02:16:12.579 --> 02:16:15.939
you can't, you know, if you get carried to the

02:16:15.939 --> 02:16:17.760
top of Mount Everest, you don't get to put the

02:16:17.760 --> 02:16:22.899
flag at the top. You know, it's not the same.

02:16:25.660 --> 02:16:28.359
It's so weird that in retrospect, these things

02:16:28.359 --> 02:16:31.159
seem so obvious. And you talk about the wisdom

02:16:31.159 --> 02:16:34.719
of the ancients. Isn't that what humanity is

02:16:34.719 --> 02:16:38.020
all about? This constant, because we all know

02:16:38.020 --> 02:16:40.840
the right thing to do somewhere in our hearts.

02:16:41.739 --> 02:16:45.920
And yet we still fight against it when just giving

02:16:45.920 --> 02:16:51.110
into it would be much easier. I think there's

02:16:51.110 --> 02:16:53.649
a couple of things that are just so evident over

02:16:53.649 --> 02:16:58.129
and over and over again. One is the assumption

02:16:58.129 --> 02:17:02.450
that bad people are bad because they make bad

02:17:02.450 --> 02:17:06.450
decisions and losing sight of the fact that we

02:17:06.450 --> 02:17:10.530
were all giggling. babies infants we were you

02:17:10.530 --> 02:17:12.829
know toddlers that were running around chasing

02:17:12.829 --> 02:17:16.170
a ball and coloring you know dogs on paper with

02:17:16.170 --> 02:17:18.809
crayons and all the the innocent things that

02:17:18.809 --> 02:17:21.129
we are and then whatever's happened in those

02:17:21.129 --> 02:17:24.350
formative life combined with the mentors that

02:17:24.350 --> 02:17:26.129
you have around because i know a lot of people

02:17:26.129 --> 02:17:28.770
that had horrific upbringings that became cops

02:17:28.770 --> 02:17:30.930
and firefighters and soldiers but they had those

02:17:30.930 --> 02:17:33.629
people that steered them in that direction same

02:17:33.629 --> 02:17:37.440
people same trauma gangbanger is now their mentor

02:17:37.440 --> 02:17:39.299
in their community all of a sudden they're in

02:17:39.299 --> 02:17:43.600
jason's position so losing sight of that understanding

02:17:43.600 --> 02:17:46.579
that the more we heal the better the environment

02:17:46.579 --> 02:17:49.899
is the fewer criminals the fewer people getting

02:17:49.899 --> 02:17:53.239
behind the wheel you know drunk because they're

02:17:53.239 --> 02:17:55.059
trying to fill in some boy whatever it is that

02:17:55.059 --> 02:17:59.799
then leads to this pain the other thing is there's

02:17:59.799 --> 02:18:04.270
no you know it's irrefutable that locking people

02:18:04.270 --> 02:18:08.149
up in cages does not work well for recidivism.

02:18:08.430 --> 02:18:11.329
And I had the superintendent of Bastøy prison

02:18:11.329 --> 02:18:14.309
in Norway on a couple of times now. And they

02:18:14.309 --> 02:18:18.250
shifted their prison model to, it's basically

02:18:18.250 --> 02:18:20.149
a housing community. These men and women, some

02:18:20.149 --> 02:18:22.170
of them are murderers. They lost their freedom.

02:18:22.329 --> 02:18:24.770
They are serving time, but they're living in

02:18:24.770 --> 02:18:27.549
houses. They cook, they clean, they go to school,

02:18:27.750 --> 02:18:31.350
they go to work. You know, their violence on

02:18:31.350 --> 02:18:34.190
each other and on officers is almost zero. And

02:18:34.190 --> 02:18:37.090
then the whole lens is because, as you said,

02:18:37.190 --> 02:18:39.229
one day these people are going to move in back

02:18:39.229 --> 02:18:42.750
to your neighborhood. What kind of human do you

02:18:42.750 --> 02:18:46.329
want coming back? And the Norwegian model has

02:18:46.329 --> 02:18:49.229
the lowest recidivism of anywhere on the planet.

02:18:49.670 --> 02:18:52.069
And what they do is they see that these are people

02:18:52.069 --> 02:18:54.639
that made mistakes. They have to pay for that

02:18:54.639 --> 02:18:57.739
mistake, but that mistake doesn't define them.

02:18:57.840 --> 02:19:00.659
And that most of them, the guy that shot up the

02:19:00.659 --> 02:19:03.840
summer camp in Norway is in a box in Norway.

02:19:04.360 --> 02:19:07.479
He's locked away from society forever. But so

02:19:07.479 --> 02:19:10.739
many of these people had these poor upbringings,

02:19:10.739 --> 02:19:14.399
surrounded by poor mentors, made poor decisions,

02:19:14.520 --> 02:19:17.600
and that you can then do the opposite, surround

02:19:17.600 --> 02:19:20.840
people with good mentors, forge good decisions,

02:19:20.879 --> 02:19:23.250
and they can become... good members of society

02:19:23.250 --> 02:19:25.930
again. So that's kind of, you know, my whole

02:19:25.930 --> 02:19:29.430
perspective. You were in law enforcement, you

02:19:29.430 --> 02:19:31.649
ultimately transitioned into, you know, the law

02:19:31.649 --> 02:19:34.629
side itself. Just to round off this conversation,

02:19:34.930 --> 02:19:38.409
if you were king for a day, what would you do?

02:19:38.530 --> 02:19:41.069
It can be systemically in society, it can be

02:19:41.069 --> 02:19:43.069
behind, you know, in the correction system itself.

02:19:43.590 --> 02:19:47.670
What do we need to change to create more healing

02:19:47.670 --> 02:19:50.870
journeys like jason did and even avoid some of

02:19:50.870 --> 02:19:52.969
these young people going into the world of crime

02:19:52.969 --> 02:19:58.209
in the first place well i i guess i'm impressed

02:19:58.209 --> 02:20:01.209
that with we didn't i don't know that there's

02:20:01.209 --> 02:20:05.250
anything that we can do it it's a remarkably

02:20:05.250 --> 02:20:12.030
complex problem and one of the the problems is

02:20:12.030 --> 02:20:24.610
is that Fear is such a common tactic, a common

02:20:24.610 --> 02:20:29.989
political tactic. I remember just a little story

02:20:29.989 --> 02:20:35.430
to illustrate, you know, a bigger point. I remember

02:20:35.430 --> 02:20:40.690
when we just finished a SWAT practice. And so

02:20:40.690 --> 02:20:43.989
it's a room full of, you know, type A, you know,

02:20:43.989 --> 02:20:50.739
high testosterone. Men, exclusively men. And

02:20:50.739 --> 02:20:54.139
we were the DA, the elected DA at the time had

02:20:54.139 --> 02:21:01.319
dropped by to, I don't know, hang out and chat

02:21:01.319 --> 02:21:04.100
with some of the team members and the, you know,

02:21:04.100 --> 02:21:08.020
the team leader and commander. And I remember

02:21:08.020 --> 02:21:10.239
he got up, he was kind of giving a, not really

02:21:10.239 --> 02:21:13.739
a campaign speech, but he was, dude. congratulating

02:21:13.739 --> 02:21:16.079
us for something, some operation we'd done or

02:21:16.079 --> 02:21:19.639
something. And I remember him lamenting that,

02:21:19.739 --> 02:21:24.979
you know, come election time, he was sad that

02:21:24.979 --> 02:21:28.139
he envied the sheriff, that the sheriff had a

02:21:28.139 --> 02:21:35.680
SWAT team, the DA. And the reason he did that

02:21:35.680 --> 02:21:39.600
is because, you know, he wanted that flashy,

02:21:39.719 --> 02:21:46.469
you know, uniformed. kind of, you know, it's

02:21:46.469 --> 02:21:50.450
the pinnacle of law enforcement. It's something

02:21:50.450 --> 02:21:53.190
that you, when you're trying to show your best

02:21:53.190 --> 02:21:56.790
officers and your best side, it's the SWAT team

02:21:56.790 --> 02:22:00.030
that gets paraded out. They're the go -getters.

02:22:00.110 --> 02:22:02.489
They're the ones that really risk their lives,

02:22:02.590 --> 02:22:08.459
you know, for the most dangerous things. But

02:22:08.459 --> 02:22:14.620
why is it that that is attractive to a law enforcement

02:22:14.620 --> 02:22:21.200
administration? And I think it's because it feeds

02:22:21.200 --> 02:22:30.680
on that basic, I don't know if I want to call

02:22:30.680 --> 02:22:36.979
it a political reality, but that... politicians

02:22:36.979 --> 02:22:41.760
want the society to be afraid of their culture,

02:22:41.840 --> 02:22:45.299
of their society, because the more afraid they

02:22:45.299 --> 02:22:48.520
are, the more money they'll give to their protection.

02:22:49.459 --> 02:22:52.100
And the symbol of their protection, you know,

02:22:52.120 --> 02:22:53.899
that he was talking about was the SWAT team.

02:22:55.319 --> 02:22:59.639
And the DA doesn't have that ability. He can't

02:22:59.639 --> 02:23:01.979
parade out. He's got a bunch of attorneys in

02:23:01.979 --> 02:23:05.229
suits. That's just not. That's not going to scare

02:23:05.229 --> 02:23:09.069
the public. What scares the public is the possibility

02:23:09.069 --> 02:23:13.530
that a SWAT team might be needed. Not so much

02:23:13.530 --> 02:23:16.350
that they're scared, but that something might

02:23:16.350 --> 02:23:21.329
happen that's so bad that the only people that

02:23:21.329 --> 02:23:24.610
can protect them are these highly trained officers.

02:23:26.329 --> 02:23:30.110
And it's that politics of fear, that almost industrialization

02:23:30.110 --> 02:23:35.850
of fear that I find. I don't know. It's destructive,

02:23:35.889 --> 02:23:40.069
I think, in a number of levels. You know, because

02:23:40.069 --> 02:23:44.629
it feeds off of people's fear to promote their

02:23:44.629 --> 02:23:52.489
support of these agencies. You know, it's like

02:23:52.489 --> 02:23:54.750
people are afraid of their houses burning down,

02:23:54.889 --> 02:23:57.610
so they have fire departments. You know, they

02:23:57.610 --> 02:24:02.459
don't... We don't do these things and promote

02:24:02.459 --> 02:24:04.340
them for the right reasons and fund them for

02:24:04.340 --> 02:24:06.200
the right reasons. We fund them because we're

02:24:06.200 --> 02:24:09.780
scared. We fund them because, you know, and the

02:24:09.780 --> 02:24:12.899
scarier it is, the more we fund them. You know,

02:24:12.920 --> 02:24:17.079
it's like the war against drugs, really. They

02:24:17.079 --> 02:24:21.479
started a war to, you know, politically back

02:24:21.479 --> 02:24:24.079
when Nancy Reagan, you know, first started that,

02:24:24.239 --> 02:24:29.379
to scare people. to give money and funding and

02:24:29.379 --> 02:24:35.500
support to law enforcement to, you know, fight

02:24:35.500 --> 02:24:39.799
the war against drugs. And, you know, just like

02:24:39.799 --> 02:24:43.459
the DA on that day, he wished he had a SWAT team

02:24:43.459 --> 02:24:46.159
he could parade out to scare the public into,

02:24:46.340 --> 02:24:50.340
you know, around budget time, supporting his

02:24:50.340 --> 02:24:53.819
department. you know, by providing more money

02:24:53.819 --> 02:24:56.959
or, you know, more funding. And that, I think

02:24:56.959 --> 02:25:00.600
that's at the core of so many messages we hear

02:25:00.600 --> 02:25:06.600
from public safety. And I don't, I don't know

02:25:06.600 --> 02:25:08.180
that there's anything that can be done about

02:25:08.180 --> 02:25:10.639
that because it is really the most effective

02:25:10.639 --> 02:25:12.780
way to, you know, kind of get the population

02:25:12.780 --> 02:25:15.680
to support something and that's to, you know,

02:25:15.680 --> 02:25:19.229
scare the dickens out of them. well flipping

02:25:19.229 --> 02:25:21.750
it on its head because i agree i mean exactly

02:25:21.750 --> 02:25:24.069
what you're talking about the the fact that that's

02:25:24.069 --> 02:25:27.719
used as leverage to get people scared. This is

02:25:27.719 --> 02:25:29.520
your brain on drugs, all these other campaigns

02:25:29.520 --> 02:25:33.079
that we've seen. It works. We've seen that most

02:25:33.079 --> 02:25:35.719
recently with the extremes on either side and

02:25:35.719 --> 02:25:38.399
the kind of messaging they've got, whether if

02:25:38.399 --> 02:25:39.899
you don't have a vaccine, then you're all going

02:25:39.899 --> 02:25:41.579
to die and your kids are murdering grandmother

02:25:41.579 --> 02:25:43.940
if they don't have it. Or the other way, everyone

02:25:43.940 --> 02:25:45.819
that comes from another country is a rapist and

02:25:45.819 --> 02:25:48.379
a murderer. And we get that extremist rhetoric

02:25:48.379 --> 02:25:51.260
all the time. You mentioned the war on drugs.

02:25:51.420 --> 02:25:54.180
I mean, the irony is we know. that that's an

02:25:54.180 --> 02:25:56.520
epic failure. I mean, this is an 80 -year longitudinal

02:25:56.520 --> 02:25:59.879
study that has created cartels and the Crips

02:25:59.879 --> 02:26:01.540
and the Bloods and all these other things that

02:26:01.540 --> 02:26:05.180
are empowered by addicts being forced into the

02:26:05.180 --> 02:26:07.620
underworld. And when you look in certain countries

02:26:07.620 --> 02:26:09.000
around the world, they say, you know what, this

02:26:09.000 --> 02:26:11.159
isn't working. We're going to do it differently

02:26:11.159 --> 02:26:13.360
than America. And Portugal is a good example.

02:26:14.180 --> 02:26:17.200
They reversed their addiction crisis in eight

02:26:17.200 --> 02:26:20.899
years. I had the guy, João Goulal, who spearheaded

02:26:20.899 --> 02:26:23.299
that, the physician in Portugal. Because what

02:26:23.299 --> 02:26:25.639
they did is like, well, we're not arresting our

02:26:25.639 --> 02:26:28.100
way out of this. It's just not working. So why

02:26:28.100 --> 02:26:30.200
don't we take the people who are addicts that

02:26:30.200 --> 02:26:33.899
haven't robbed houses, stolen cars, all the other

02:26:33.899 --> 02:26:35.799
things that are also a crime and they have to

02:26:35.799 --> 02:26:38.079
pay for that. But if addiction is their crime,

02:26:38.159 --> 02:26:40.440
being caught with a user's amount of a substance.

02:26:41.290 --> 02:26:43.829
We're going to funnel them into addiction counseling,

02:26:44.090 --> 02:26:46.969
job creation, mental health counseling, housing,

02:26:47.250 --> 02:26:50.209
get them on their feet, get them sober, and then

02:26:50.209 --> 02:26:52.690
get them back to work. And it does. And that's

02:26:52.690 --> 02:26:55.190
not everyone. There are still addicts in Portugal

02:26:55.190 --> 02:26:58.010
that use medical facilities to get their drugs

02:26:58.010 --> 02:26:59.950
so they're not dying in gutters in the streets.

02:27:00.329 --> 02:27:03.290
But everyone else, they got back on their feet.

02:27:03.370 --> 02:27:05.049
And you want to cut the head off the snake of

02:27:05.049 --> 02:27:07.709
gangs and cartels, take away their customer.

02:27:08.030 --> 02:27:10.690
And I know it's not. Just flick a switch and

02:27:10.690 --> 02:27:14.190
it will happen. But we know that chasing bad

02:27:14.190 --> 02:27:15.909
guys doesn't work. The number of people I had

02:27:15.909 --> 02:27:18.770
on the show, the moment we arrest someone on

02:27:18.770 --> 02:27:21.989
a street corner, another one pops up. It's whack

02:27:21.989 --> 02:27:25.510
-a -mole. It's not fixing the problem. So I think

02:27:25.510 --> 02:27:28.790
this is just it. We've got to get away from what

02:27:28.790 --> 02:27:31.069
everyone's told us is the solution because it

02:27:31.069 --> 02:27:33.809
doesn't work and we know it doesn't work. We

02:27:33.809 --> 02:27:36.590
have 100 ,000 Americans dying of opioids every

02:27:36.590 --> 02:27:39.540
year. If the war on drugs worked, Purdue Pharma

02:27:39.540 --> 02:27:41.340
never would be able to put OxyContin through

02:27:41.340 --> 02:27:43.940
the FDA in the first place. But they did. And

02:27:43.940 --> 02:27:47.120
here we are. So I think that looking at the way

02:27:47.120 --> 02:27:49.440
we've done it is the perfect opportunity to go,

02:27:49.559 --> 02:27:54.059
OK, we need something else. And presenting SWAT

02:27:54.059 --> 02:27:56.239
teams, even though there's a necessity, when

02:27:56.239 --> 02:27:58.639
people say, well, why do our police look like

02:27:58.639 --> 02:28:00.920
they're going to war? It's because we've created

02:28:00.920 --> 02:28:03.280
war on the streets. Exactly. I mean, there's

02:28:03.280 --> 02:28:05.180
no better example than what you went through.

02:28:05.690 --> 02:28:08.889
with a member of the Crips. But that doesn't

02:28:08.889 --> 02:28:10.549
have to be the case. And I think what people

02:28:10.549 --> 02:28:12.870
have got to take a step back and ask is that,

02:28:12.889 --> 02:28:14.290
well, why doesn't that happen on the streets

02:28:14.290 --> 02:28:20.409
of Oslo or Lisbon or Osaka? They don't have this

02:28:20.409 --> 02:28:22.770
level of violence and addiction and crime and

02:28:22.770 --> 02:28:25.010
homelessness that we have. So why are we not

02:28:25.010 --> 02:28:27.190
going to those countries and saying, what are

02:28:27.190 --> 02:28:29.350
you doing? We need to start copying some of the

02:28:29.350 --> 02:28:37.420
things that you do. I agree. And that, but that's,

02:28:37.420 --> 02:28:42.340
it's the simplest way, I think, for politicians

02:28:42.340 --> 02:28:48.520
to, you know, get support for their, you know,

02:28:48.520 --> 02:28:51.659
the things they want support for is that, like

02:28:51.659 --> 02:28:55.100
I said, it's almost like the industrialization

02:28:55.100 --> 02:29:03.450
of fear. And if... It would probably be easier

02:29:03.450 --> 02:29:05.809
to get rid of if it wasn't so effective. You

02:29:05.809 --> 02:29:11.709
know, it's, you know, you, and there's no denying

02:29:11.709 --> 02:29:13.850
that there's a core of truth that runs through

02:29:13.850 --> 02:29:16.030
so many of the things that we're afraid of, you

02:29:16.030 --> 02:29:19.430
know, that from unhoused people to immigrants

02:29:19.430 --> 02:29:24.709
to, you know, gang members, you know, that those

02:29:24.709 --> 02:29:28.690
are all problems, but they never have problematic,

02:29:28.709 --> 02:29:35.360
you know, aspects to them. it just, it's like

02:29:35.360 --> 02:29:39.979
an easy way to get support for something is to,

02:29:40.000 --> 02:29:45.340
you know, tell people that they should be afraid

02:29:45.340 --> 02:29:47.840
of something and then set yourself up as the

02:29:47.840 --> 02:29:52.500
solution to that fear. And I don't know. That's

02:29:52.500 --> 02:30:04.510
like I said, it's, I, I'm, I'm, have the you

02:30:04.510 --> 02:30:09.049
know the wherewithal or the you know the i don't

02:30:09.049 --> 02:30:12.170
think there is a magic wand for any of this you

02:30:12.170 --> 02:30:17.209
know i think any solutions that there might be

02:30:17.209 --> 02:30:20.030
or they're going to have to be realized in the

02:30:20.030 --> 02:30:27.770
long term uh i i really like the idea of focusing

02:30:27.770 --> 02:30:31.989
more on like the individual you know individual

02:30:31.989 --> 02:30:38.500
people You know, I'd like the, you know, I don't

02:30:38.500 --> 02:30:43.459
know anything about the, I went to a struggle

02:30:43.459 --> 02:30:49.559
well class brought by Boulder Crest a couple

02:30:49.559 --> 02:30:56.299
of weeks ago. And the fire chief for, who was

02:30:56.299 --> 02:31:04.549
sponsoring the class. You know, obviously, he's

02:31:04.549 --> 02:31:07.590
in charge of the agency. He's an administrator.

02:31:08.229 --> 02:31:12.469
And he internalized the training from that class,

02:31:12.569 --> 02:31:15.329
which is, you know, the concept of post -traumatic

02:31:15.329 --> 02:31:20.549
growth. And the first hour or the first day of

02:31:20.549 --> 02:31:23.290
our class, he got up in front of the class and

02:31:23.290 --> 02:31:27.409
bared his soul to everyone in there, including

02:31:27.409 --> 02:31:34.010
the... people that were his employees and showed

02:31:34.010 --> 02:31:38.250
incredible vulnerability and, you know, emotional

02:31:38.250 --> 02:31:43.729
intelligence. And I don't, I don't know if I

02:31:43.729 --> 02:31:45.969
don't know anything else. I do know that that

02:31:45.969 --> 02:31:50.969
looked a lot like healthy leadership to me. Uh,

02:31:51.309 --> 02:31:55.770
you know, if there were more people like that

02:31:55.770 --> 02:31:59.760
in, you know, all aspects of our life not just

02:31:59.760 --> 02:32:01.819
in public service i think we'd be a lot better

02:32:01.819 --> 02:32:06.079
off and that's one of the reasons i i have so

02:32:06.079 --> 02:32:10.020
much respect for that program is that within

02:32:10.020 --> 02:32:13.700
that i see a solution you know and maybe in a

02:32:13.700 --> 02:32:16.219
broader sense but i think it would have to be

02:32:16.219 --> 02:32:19.000
scaled up to a much greater degree than it is

02:32:19.000 --> 02:32:25.680
you know at present but that paradoxically i

02:32:25.680 --> 02:32:29.959
think You know, our weaknesses are potentially

02:32:29.959 --> 02:32:36.020
our greatest strengths and as our vulnerabilities

02:32:36.020 --> 02:32:41.000
are our greatest strength. Because I saw after

02:32:41.000 --> 02:32:43.500
the chief spoke, I saw a room full of people,

02:32:43.579 --> 02:32:48.739
you know, you know, over the course of that week

02:32:48.739 --> 02:32:52.760
and leaving that class that any public agency

02:32:52.760 --> 02:32:55.540
would be proud, you know, serving their citizens.

02:32:59.239 --> 02:33:04.219
And, you know, for whatever else it accomplished,

02:33:04.420 --> 02:33:08.500
for me, that's a lesson, you know, that I think

02:33:08.500 --> 02:33:12.739
we could all learn a lot from. Yeah, I agree

02:33:12.739 --> 02:33:14.879
100%. I've heard a lot of great things about

02:33:14.879 --> 02:33:17.219
struggle. Well, a lot of people on here have

02:33:17.219 --> 02:33:19.340
been through it. And post -traumatic growth is

02:33:19.340 --> 02:33:21.360
exactly it. And, you know, you listen to people

02:33:21.360 --> 02:33:23.659
talking about the ACEs, the Adverse Childhood

02:33:23.659 --> 02:33:26.379
Experience score. And on average, we're supposed

02:33:26.379 --> 02:33:31.319
to be 6 out of 10, and incarcerated persons are

02:33:31.319 --> 02:33:35.100
supposed to be 6 out of 10. So if we can have

02:33:35.100 --> 02:33:37.239
post -traumatic growth and ultimately become

02:33:37.239 --> 02:33:39.479
police officers and firefighters and soldiers,

02:33:39.700 --> 02:33:42.840
especially if we do the work, and now our early

02:33:42.840 --> 02:33:45.780
life that sent us into uniform becomes an asset,

02:33:45.979 --> 02:33:49.440
becomes resilience, becomes even more empathy,

02:33:49.860 --> 02:33:53.139
then why is the person who found themselves the

02:33:53.139 --> 02:33:55.690
wrong side of the law not? able to do the same

02:33:55.690 --> 02:33:58.110
thing so whether it's someone who's struggling

02:33:58.110 --> 02:33:59.770
in uniform whether it's someone who's struggling

02:33:59.770 --> 02:34:04.069
in you know behind bars at the moment if we believe

02:34:04.069 --> 02:34:07.590
that most of us can grow from this and therefore

02:34:07.590 --> 02:34:10.110
be stronger and you know how many people have

02:34:10.110 --> 02:34:12.729
we seen that were former gang members they're

02:34:12.729 --> 02:34:15.129
out in their own community now being the voice

02:34:15.129 --> 02:34:17.450
of change being the voice of you know mentorship

02:34:17.450 --> 02:34:19.530
for these young people so they don't go down

02:34:19.530 --> 02:34:22.290
that path so i think this is exactly the post

02:34:22.290 --> 02:34:25.299
-traumatic growth model needs to be not just

02:34:25.299 --> 02:34:27.940
in first responder and military conversations,

02:34:28.059 --> 02:34:33.079
but for all of SAI. Oh, you know, I can't remember

02:34:33.079 --> 02:34:36.579
the exact statistic, but the lowest level of

02:34:36.579 --> 02:34:39.760
recidivism from state prison in California comes

02:34:39.760 --> 02:34:49.760
from lifers that are released. You know, so arguably

02:34:49.760 --> 02:34:53.000
they've, you know, committed the worst crimes.

02:34:53.920 --> 02:34:59.540
receive the worst punishments, and yet they commit

02:34:59.540 --> 02:35:02.040
crimes at a much lower rate when they're released.

02:35:02.780 --> 02:35:08.360
It also reminds me of that story in the Struggle

02:35:08.360 --> 02:35:14.399
Well book by Captain Charlie Plummer, who tells

02:35:14.399 --> 02:35:19.940
that the lowest level of post -traumatic stress

02:35:19.940 --> 02:35:22.799
in members of the military are former prisoners

02:35:22.799 --> 02:35:28.739
of war. which is, you know, on its face, you

02:35:28.739 --> 02:35:31.719
know, counterintuitive. You would think those

02:35:31.719 --> 02:35:34.979
who had the worst experience would have the greatest

02:35:34.979 --> 02:35:39.620
stress. But in fact, their experiences lead them

02:35:39.620 --> 02:35:44.280
to much greater happiness and stability in their

02:35:44.280 --> 02:35:46.780
lives once they're, you know, released from,

02:35:46.860 --> 02:35:51.319
you know, their imprisonment. So I think there's

02:35:51.319 --> 02:35:54.559
also a lesson for you know, civilian prisoners

02:35:54.559 --> 02:36:00.239
in that same model. But, you know, we're too

02:36:00.239 --> 02:36:03.100
busy, you know, being angry at them and hating

02:36:03.100 --> 02:36:07.899
them perpetually because they're evil and they've

02:36:07.899 --> 02:36:11.180
done all these terrible things. As if, you know,

02:36:11.180 --> 02:36:14.020
virtually every other person that's not in prison

02:36:14.020 --> 02:36:17.120
hasn't made some mistake that they, you know,

02:36:17.120 --> 02:36:20.120
could have been arrested or jailed for sometime

02:36:20.120 --> 02:36:25.430
in their life. Absolutely. Let he who is without

02:36:25.430 --> 02:36:30.209
sin cast the first stone, as they say. All right.

02:36:30.290 --> 02:36:32.030
Well, I want to be mindful of your time. I'm

02:36:32.030 --> 02:36:33.690
sure your dog probably needs to pee as well.

02:36:34.670 --> 02:36:37.729
And I've got to get on with some stuff over here,

02:36:37.770 --> 02:36:40.649
too. So if people listening want to learn more

02:36:40.649 --> 02:36:42.649
about you or want to reach out to you, where

02:36:42.649 --> 02:36:46.850
are the best places online to do that? Oh, I

02:36:46.850 --> 02:36:51.250
guess my email is, you know, I don't mind being

02:36:51.250 --> 02:36:54.520
contacted. Okay. I can put your email on the

02:36:54.520 --> 02:36:56.219
show notes so you don't have to relay it on here.

02:36:56.360 --> 02:36:59.680
So, um, brilliant. Well, Tom, I want to thank

02:36:59.680 --> 02:37:02.239
you so much. It's been, I mean, just such an

02:37:02.239 --> 02:37:04.239
incredible conversation and watching the documentary

02:37:04.239 --> 02:37:06.440
right before we sat down, you know, the emotions

02:37:06.440 --> 02:37:10.020
were still powerful in my mind as well, but to

02:37:10.020 --> 02:37:12.840
go through such a story career, as far as, you

02:37:12.840 --> 02:37:15.000
know, the MTE paramedic and then law enforcement

02:37:15.000 --> 02:37:18.360
to have that first, you know, shooting that you

02:37:18.360 --> 02:37:21.059
encountered and then the diligence of your training

02:37:21.059 --> 02:37:23.350
and then leading to. you know, what happened

02:37:23.350 --> 02:37:25.770
with Jason and then, you know, the incredible

02:37:25.770 --> 02:37:29.430
forgiveness story that came from that. It's been

02:37:29.430 --> 02:37:31.930
absolutely amazing. So I want to thank you so,

02:37:31.989 --> 02:37:34.170
so much for being so generous with your time

02:37:34.170 --> 02:37:36.489
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

02:37:37.229 --> 02:37:40.170
That's my pleasure, James. Thank you for having

02:37:40.170 --> 02:37:40.389
me.