Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name's James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
former law enforcement officer, Tom Morgan. Now,
I have to say that this is one of the most pertinent
episodes that I've recorded when it comes to
the environment that we're experiencing at the
moment in 2026. On April 13th, 1997, whilst on
the job, Tom was shot in the face by Jason Samuel
and almost died. Now, the journey of forgiveness
that you will hear not only Tom, but his wife,
Christy, embark on is exactly what we need to
hear today. And if this isn't a lesson and inspiration
to us all, then I don't know what is. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment. Go
to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
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over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you...
Tom Morgan. Enjoy. Well, Tom, I want to start
by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our
mutual friend, Anthony Marquez, for making this
introduction. And secondly, I want to welcome
you on to the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you, James. I also want to thank Anthony
or Tony. He's a remarkable young man. And one
of the reasons I, you know, I wanted to come
out and talk to you was because I got to watch
Tony's podcast and kind of listen to a little
bit more of his story, which I'd heard a part
of it, but certainly not as much as was covered
in the podcast. And that was, I thought, very
well done. And Tony is an exceptional young man.
Absolutely. Well, we'll get to how you guys met
later in this conversation. Let's start at the
very beginning, though. Firstly, where on planet
Earth are we finding you today? I'm in Bakersfield,
California. So with that being said, tell me
where you were born and tell me a little bit
about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. Sure. Well, I was born
in 1957 in San Jose, California. I was the firstborn
to Tom and Patricia Morgan. My father at the
time, and, you know, until he finally retired,
was a teacher. He taught art, drafting. He was
also a wrestling coach for most of his career.
a nurse, a registered nurse, who worked in a
variety of hospital settings, but towards the
end of her career, she worked mainly in mental,
lock -up mental health facilities. I've got a
younger brother. He's the youngest of the four
of us, and two sisters in the middle. Everyone's
still alive and doing well. I lost my father.
Last August, at the age of 94 years old, he was
surrounded with his family when he went. And
it was good that we had him with us for as long
as we did. My mother died about 20 years ago
from lung cancer. She was a lifelong smoker.
With your mother's work, what was some of the
things you remember her talking about with the
mental health side? Because I think a lot of
people don't realize that even though. We have
progressed immensely when it comes to the mental
health world and even what we describe as a disability
these days. I mean, you have, you know, people
with cerebral palsy powerlifting. We have people
with Down syndrome doing, you know, Hawaiian
Ironman triathlon. So we're redefining it incredibly.
But there are still, you know, men and women
on the physical and the mental health side that
are going to spend their entire life in, you
know, some sort of ward. Yeah, well, needless
to say, she didn't talk a lot about her interactions
with patients because, of course, that stuff's
confidential. And you could certainly see that
the work took its toll on her. One of the things
that my wellness practice, before the phrase
was popular, that my mother always engaged in
was reading. And I think that's how she kind
of escaped the rigors of, you know, dealing with
the criminally, mentally ill on a day -to -day
basis. And that's, you know, I inherited her
love of reading, which, you know, I credit, you
know, for whatever small amount of insider intelligence
that I have to the fact that I love to read.
My mother was in that field during an interesting
time in the United States because that coincided
with a movie that came out called One Flew Over
the Cuckoo's Nest, which was actually filmed
at the state institution where she worked in
Salem, Oregon. That also, and I'm not exactly
sure of the timing, but that all just generally
coincided with the disenfranchisement of the
mentally ill from lockup, you know, from lockup
facilities. There was a time in this country
when folks who were mentally ill that, you know,
we couldn't treat or didn't know what to do with,
that may have not, you know, been criminals,
you know, or involved in criminal activity. We
just... You know, they were disabled to the point
that they couldn't care for themselves. There
was a time when those people were all housed
in these massive state facilities throughout
the land. And I think it was when Reagan was
president, there was legislation, and a lot of
those people were leased from mental health facilities
out onto the street. And I don't know enough
about it to know whether or not there's... some
sort of strict cause and effect with, you know,
a lot of the problems that we have today with
the mentally ill and unhoused folks. But, you
know, they certainly had to go somewhere and
they weren't going into, you know, institutions
or any kind of care. So I think a lot of those
people were kind of left, you know, as kind of
the detritus of society. You know, they were,
you know. out of sight out of mind uh however
anymore they're not so much out of sight i guess
i've had quite a few people that are you know
experts in you know the the unhoused space as
it were and many of them and many people in the
mental health field as well have said yes that
that that kind of reagan decision to you know,
remove these facilities really was the kind of
beginning of the homelessness that we see today.
And obviously it's not the only thing, but, you
know, I think it's pretty well acknowledged that
a lot of people that are unhoused, you know,
are suffering from mental health challenges.
Yeah, that's certainly the case. That was certainly
the case, you know, when I was a paramedic and
when I was a cop, you know, that, you know, those
were hard times. day in, day out customers. You
know, always as part of the texture of our careers
were our interactions with these folks. What
about sports and exercise when you were in school
age? Were you wrestling? Was your dad teaching
you or were there other things that you were
doing? Well, we couldn't help but do some wrestling
just because that was always my dad's love. My
dad was happy as long as we were involved in
anything physical. He didn't, you know, pressure
us to become wrestlers. And frankly, I was a
lousy wrestler. I was long and gangly. And, you
know, I didn't have that kind of low to the ground
type of stature that, you know, a good, strong
wrestler, you know, can take advantage of. But
so I kind of, you know, headed in other directions.
I got a motorcycle when I was, you know, pretty
much old enough to ride it. And I raced motocross
for a number of years. I played tennis in high
school. I think I was on the football team for
one year in junior high. And I was on track for
several years, you know, in a variety of events.
I was never what you would call a standout athlete.
I just, you know, it just, you know, it was just
part of our lifestyle to be active and, you know,
be physical. So I think it's something I've always,
however little I may have excelled in, the things
I got involved with, I still enjoyed doing it.
I think that's a really important perspective,
though. Sadly, in modern society, predominantly
because there's so much money attached to it.
This elitism in a specific sport has become the
holy grail. And that's moved us away from just
playing sports because we enjoy it. We know that
the multi -sport athlete, mentally and physically,
is far more resilient than the specialist. But
there's almost this kind of conversation that
if you don't come first every time, then you're
not worth a damn, rather than going back to what
was always the case until recently, which is...
If you love playing sport, go play some sports.
Just have fun. It doesn't matter if you're trying
to win, of course, but the result isn't the point.
It's the community. It's the shared suffering.
It's the discomfort. It's the sharing the joy
when you win and the commiserations when you
lose. Those are all part of the whole thing,
and it's a shame that we've got away from that.
Yeah. I know a lot of this has to do with the
advent of the cell phone. you know, kids spending
so much time in video games and on their cell
phones. I mean, my mother used to refer to us
as feral children, you know, because she'd, like,
open the door in the morning, you know, or we'd,
you know, sneak out. And we wouldn't come back,
you know, until, you know, it was dark. And we'd
come back dirty and bruised and bloodied and,
you know, covered with horse hair. You know,
cuts and scrapes from blackberry bushes and crashing
on our bikes. And I just remember my upbringing
was mostly outdoors, you know, when I was a kid
and when I was growing up. And that was, you
know, that was encouraged. Now that I think back
on it, I don't remember it being so much encouraged
as that was just what we did. The out -of -doors
was full of so much wonder, and I loved exploring.
When we moved to Oregon, my dad bought a five
-acre plot in the middle of the woods and built
from the ground up, literally, the home that
we lived in. And I can remember the hours and
hours spent exploring that five acres and the
surrounding, you know, thousands of acres of
watershed that we lived in the middle of. It
was just a magic, magical and fascinating upbringing.
I grew up on a farm. My dad was a veterinary
surgeon, so I had a very similar thing. I've
used the term feral very often. We were Lord
of the Flies during the day and then came back
to the bed at night. What about career aspirations?
What were you dreaming of becoming when you were
still in school? Was it law enforcement or was
it something else? That's a weird thing for me
anyway because I never had something I wanted
to be ever since I can remember. Thinking about
careers, the idea of having a career and being
responsible is always a little bit frightening
for me. The idea that I might someday have to
take care of myself or other people was completely
foreign. I honestly dreaded the day that I was
going to graduate from high school because I
really had no idea what I was going to do. I
mean, my parents, you know, they told me they
would, you know, help us through college. But
they ended up getting divorced about the time
I got, you know, ready to graduate. And so I
was, you know, they weren't in any position to
help me go through college. And frankly, I was
sort of surprised given my... You know, lack
of attendance my senior year in high school.
I was surprised they even gave me a high school
diploma. I think that I just, you know, they
just accidentally, I think, left it in the pile.
You know, when they passed him out, I didn't
go to my graduation ceremony. I, you know, they
mailed it to me a few months later. I'd assumed
I'd passed, but I... I did little or no actual
coursework during that final year of high school.
That I'm sitting here in front of you now today
is a miracle. I should have never accomplished
much of anything if it was just based on my planning
or anticipation of some sort of career after
I got out of high school. So walk me through
that, Ben. You graduate, kind of -ish, maybe.
You get this diploma in the mail. You're like,
okay, well, I guess I did then. Where does that
lead you initially? Well, I had a buddy. I had
a lot of friends and acquaintances at the time
from school. And he worked on the local ambulance.
This was in Flagstaff, Arizona. And he used to
come back to the group after. I shift on the
ambulance and regale us with all of the tales
of, you know, zooming all over town with lights
and siren and going to traffic accidents. And,
you know, it sounded very exciting. And I thought,
man, it's outdoors. You're kind of your own,
you know, you don't have like a boss, you know,
standing over you telling you what to do. You
make your own decisions, you know. when, you
know, the decision needs to be made. And the
excitement of it just really appealed to me.
And I asked him how, you know, what qualified
it? How did he get into it? And he said, well,
I went and took an EMT class. And so this was
back in 1975, not 76. And I took a community
college EMT class, really the first. academics
I ever spent any real time studying and paying
attention to, aside from just my love of reading.
And I passed, got my EMT, and at the time my
mother was working as a nurse in Southern Inyo
County Community Hospital, which is in Inyo County,
which is between the White Mountains and the
Sierras. And the eastern side of California,
it's just a beautiful, breathtakingly beautiful
area, but very sparsely populated, very small
hospital. And she said, well, we've got this
ambulance company up here that's always looking
for people, a little private ambulance company
that was based in a larger town to the south,
but had a satellite station at one point. And
she said, they'll, you know, as long as you've
got an EMT license, they'll hire you. I said,
well, I hitched a ride with a buddy of mine over
to California and eventually found my way to
Long Pine. That was like 1976. I started working
as an EMT on a little rural ambulance. I just
interviewed, again, a guy, Kevin Hazard, who's
a paramedic and became an author. He wrote an
amazing book called American Sirens about the
original. paramedics and how that was actually
out of a place called the Freedom House in Pittsburgh
in the mid 60s. And they were all African -American
men at that point. And it's interesting because
we think like the genesis of the medic program
came from L .A., Miami, you know, in the 70s.
But actually, it's a decade prior. And as it
gained popularity, they actually got rid of all
the African -American medics. in that program.
So, you know, it's, it's a story most people
haven't heard. I'm actually getting one of the
original men on the show coming up, but that
being said, so that's kind of the, the origin
story that a lot of us didn't even realize. Talk
to me about that world in the seventies though.
You know, what was some of the, the career calls
that you remember and what was some of the technology
you were working with back then? Well, if it
gives you any idea, one of the ambulances that
I regularly ran out of was a converted hearse.
Because many ambulances, you know, I mean, pre
-hospital care is a fairly recent concept. For
many years, you know, once they stopped just...
throwing people in cars or buggies or carriages
to take them to the hospital. The next, ironically,
most logical person or enterprise that took people
to the hospital were the mortuaries, because
their vehicles were kind of set up to haul people
laying down. you know, did dual duty, they'd
take them to the hospital and then take them
back to the, you know, and have them involved.
So I actually ran calls out of an old Plymouth
and an old Cadillac ambulance that had the area
for the first aid supplies was about the size
of a, you know, a large first aid kit. And you,
it actually had recessed rollers in it that you
could flip up to roll a casket into the back
when needed and flip the other way so you can
roll the gurney in, you know, if you had a patient.
And so we were, and while I was an EMT at the
time in California, that wasn't required to work
on an ambulance. There was actually, there were
actually rules at the time that allowed someone
working to someone to work on an ambulance if
they worked for a volunteer fire department with
nothing more than a an advanced first aid card
and that could actually be deferred if no one
in the department you know had that requirement
and so we were actually surrounded by a number
of smaller up in independence in big pine volunteer
fire department ambulances where the The volunteer
firefighters had virtually no first aid training.
And they were like the original scoop and run.
Somebody called an ambulance. They hauled us
to the location, put them in the ambulance, and
drove as fast as they could to the hospital.
And we were like one tier above that. The company
I worked for required that you... have your EMT
certification, but often my drivers, you know,
didn't have EMT certification. They had advanced
first aid. And when I say advanced first aid,
I'm talking about the old classic Red Cross advanced
first aid certification. And I did that for about
three or four years working in that area. And
that county didn't have any paramedics. When
I first started as an EMT, the closest paramedics
were in Mono County up by Mammoth. And the only
reason we knew about them is because we were
on the same radio system. And so we occasionally
could hear running calls up in the Mammoth area,
you know, near that ski resort. But to the south,
the closest... Paramedics were in Los Angeles
County and L .A. proper. And I don't think there
were even any, the county to the south of me
where I'm at now, Kern County, I don't think
they had paramedics until probably the late 70s,
early 80s. What were some of the notable calls
you remember from that period of your career?
Well, the worst calls that we had were usually
along 395, which at the time was a two lane stretch
that ran from Los Angeles, Riverside, San Bernardino
County up to Mammoth, which on the weekends was
crowded with skiers going up and back from Los
Angeles. And I know one of my first. interactions
with LA County firefighters was when, uh, we'd
have a, like a multi -car head -on traffic accident
on the weekend. And suddenly I'm surrounded by
15 off -duty firefighters because they have,
you know, a great deal of time off and, uh, lots
of toys and they would often, you know, be on
their way up to them as they're on their way
back. And, uh, They were always kind enough to
stop and, you know, give us instructions on how
we needed to be treating our patients, which
at the time I kind of resented. But, you know,
looking back on it, most of them had like, I
don't know, 20 times the training and experience
that I had. But of course, you know, I was the
one that was going to have to ride to the hospital
with them. As soon as we had them loaded up,
they'd be back in there. their trucks on their
way back up to Mammoth. But we ran some just
incredibly difficult traffic collisions. And
I think maybe it wasn't so much the calls that
we ran. It was the fact that we lived in such
a remote area. And if somebody was seriously
injured, they ended up having to be. transported
down to usually Longalinda and San Bernardino
and occasionally into Los Angeles to the Lancaster,
Palmdale area. So we'd have to take a lot of
times the critical patients that we picked up
on the highway, we'd have to take them down hundreds
of miles before they could get definitive care
to larger metropolitan area hospitals. Some of
them didn't make it. I started with living patients
in Long Pine sometimes that didn't make it to
the hospital. And air transportation wasn't well
available, wasn't nearly as widely available
as it is today. So a lot of those trips ended
up being pretty long and stressful. So I'm understanding
it, right? Because of the nature of the vehicle,
you weren't able to actually attend to the patient.
You're basically driving them to the hospital
and then hoping that when you get there, they're
still breathing? Well, we could attend to them,
but we just couldn't. There was no, you know,
our attendance was pretty limited. Right. You
know, I mean, if they had an IV, you know, we
could. you know, adjust the drip, but we had
no direct communications with any hospitals.
We had basic first aid supplies in the ambulance.
So, I mean, I can, and we were the only ambulance
in the area at the time. And so I can remember
staying up for, you know, 48, 72 hours running
calls back to back. Because we were just the
only, you know, if we didn't come out to get
people, then no one was going to come get them.
So how did that lead you to law enforcement?
Well, I eventually moved from Lone Pine to Bridgecrest
and for a while also in Mojave, California. And
I mentioned earlier that we didn't have any paramedics.
And, you know, the paramedic program had just
started in Bakersfield when I moved down to Ridgecrest,
south of Lone Pine. And there were no paramedics
in the eastern side of Kern County. And Kern
County, it's kind of, you know, you don't really,
it's larger than a few states. It's one of the
largest counties in the United States. I think
third only behind Riverside and San Bernardino
that are larger. So it's a massive county. And
so the eastern portion had absolutely no advanced
medical, you know, pre -hospital care available
at all. So I moved down to Ridgecrest and I helped
start and establish the first paramedic program
in the eastern Kern County area. The program
was right out of Squad 51, you know, Johnny and
Roy in emergency. We had one of those old orange
core communication boxes to talk to the hospital.
We had to call in, you know, every time and give
a patient assessment before we could get orders.
And even when, you know, working a code, that
still had to all be, we had to send the strip.
you know, the EKG strip to the base hospital.
It was literally one of the, it was the first
paramedic program in that part of the county.
And overall, my certification number for Kern
County was 30. So I was the 30th medic ever certified
in the county at the time I got certified. The
first to work and transport people to the hospital
in Ridgecrest. What got me into law enforcement
was a recognition that I was unlikely to survive
that job. It was especially working in a private
ambulance. The hours, the physical strain and
stress on your body was constant. And back then,
you know, while fire departments worked, you
know, they're, you know. a variety of on and
off schedules, working for a private ambulance
company at that time. He pretty much worked all
the time. So, you know, I mean, even when I got
over to Bakersfield, the only concession they
made to that sort of thing in a large metropolitan
area was we'd work 72 hours on and 72 hours off.
And that was our schedule. You know, no, that
was period our schedule. you know, as long as
we were there. And, you know, while a lot has
improved over the years at the time, it was taking
a toll on me. My back was giving out. I think
I'm a bit of a hypochondriac, and so it seemed
like many of the diseases my patients had or
difficulties I would end up experiencing. And
back during that period of time, Hospitals weren't
comfortable with people outside the hospital
providing advanced pre -hospital care. And so
we often got into confrontations and arguments
with the doctors and nurses and the institutions
that we transported people to because they didn't
believe we had any business providing the medical
care that we were providing. And so there was
that constant tension. You know, between us and
the facilities and the constant work and the
lack of sleep, I just knew it was, you know,
going to eventually kill me. And I thought that
law enforcement would be a reasonable alternative.
It had a lot of the same attributes, you know,
that I liked about being a paramedic with a regular
shift and the ability to advance. I didn't really
see any attraction in advancing within a private
ambulance company and becoming a manager or a
supervisor in that context. But I saw the hierarchy
and chain of command in a law enforcement agency
as an attractive way to gain knowledge, experience,
and promote up through the ranks as I did so.
So crazy that you're talking about 50 years ago,
and yet the fire services we speak now are basically
working the same kind of hours. You know, that
we have on paper a 56 -hour work week, but we,
because of refusing to acknowledge exactly what
you could have told the world 50 years ago, this
is what it's doing to my mind, this is what it's
doing to my body, this is what it's doing to
my relationships. refusing to actually acknowledge
that and turning their head now we have a massive
recruitment and retention problem in the fire
service so what was supposed to be a 56 hour
work week is now an 80 you know 120 to 104 hour
work week with the mandatory overtime so you
know it's funny people sometimes ask me or have
you got studies have you got data i was like
well apart from common sense We are not supposed
to be awake for two, three, four days straight.
I mean, that's why they use that for torture
and interrogation. The science is irrefutable
on how to optimize a human being as a paramedic
or a police officer or a firefighter. And there's
starting to be a conversation out of Florida,
funnily enough, where it's starting to bloom
here, where they're realizing if you take all
the money that you're wasting with breaking your
people and put it in the front. All of a sudden,
people want to work for you again. Imagine that.
And you've got a healthier, happier fire service
and paramedics and EMTs. But it's crazy listening
to you talking about that because what you're
storytelling is something that you guys were
figuring out 50 years ago. And yet people are
still refusing to acknowledge it with all the
information and the Internet and everything now
and the science and the proof and the people
detailing how changing things has worked. And
it's still like pulling teeth to get people to
acknowledge. that a human being cannot be worked
for that many hours, especially sleep deprived
under the high levels of stress that we're expected
to work under. I think part of that is an endemic
fault of the chain of command and the way public
services promote people, I guess. I've given
some thought to this, and it seems like, you
know, when you get the job, you become good at
it. And which is, you know, that's the most fun,
the most interesting thing that you'll ever do
in your career is that direct hands -on firefighting,
patient care, law enforcement, whatever. But
then. when they promote people, they don't necessarily,
it's hard to promote people that had fun doing
that because they don't find administrative work
to be anywhere near as attractive and fun. And
so I think what you, what you end up promoting
is people that, you know, maybe don't understand
the job as well, but, you know, have skill at
testing and being administrators, but they never
really held on to, or maybe never even really
experienced that, I don't know. Service, the
way I see it, like actually doing it for the
right reason. Yeah. And so then you've got all
of these people that love doing the job, that
stay at it, that are good at it, but they never
promote into positions where they can make decisions.
Maybe it's that they don't spend enough time
showing the good providers and workers the value
of having their input into the system as they
go up through the ranks. Because if there's ever
criticism I've ever had, and I've probably had
a lot of it, of the people I've worked for is
that they've forgotten where they came from.
They don't appreciate the hardships that we suffered,
you know, on the street. And to your point, that
seems exactly what's happening. It's those people
that are actually making decisions have forgotten
that now, when their role at one time was fighting
for their patients, now they need to fight for
their... their teams, you know, for the people
that are actually doing the job just as hard
as they fought for their patients when they did
the job on the street. Because it seems to me
like as you promote and go up through the ranks,
it becomes more about how to get money, you know,
and how to check the boxes and make the spreadsheet
look good. you know, for your department, but
not necessarily how to do the job, the hands
-on job that you have to do, you know, down,
you know, with line staff. Yeah, it's, I mean,
you're having, you're literally echoing what
so many people are talking about to this day.
And the irony is they're not even doing that
well because if you understand false economy,
making something look good in a budget year isn't
actually being fiscally responsible. Figuring
out, well, what are the downstream costs of all
these things, realizing that far outweighs the
savings that you're presenting in that budget
year, and then going, okay, well, we're bleeding
money from, you know, overtime filling these
spots from training people who then leave our
agency two, three years later from the medical
retirements and the line of duty death payments
and the lawsuits from when we make mistakes because
we're so exhausted. That's, you know, I mean,
just to give an example, the overtime. budget
for LAFD the last four years was 1 .2 billion
with a B dollars. So right there, oh, we can't
afford more. Yes, you can. There's your money.
And that's just the overtime. That's not the
lack of retention or the other things I just
talked about. So even from a budgetary point
of view, they're doing a terrible job because
they're not actually fiscally responsible. They're
not investing taxpayers' money wisely. It's being...
pissed down you know down the street basically
so this is what i'm realizing is that yeah you
can take promotional officer classes and have
the pieces of paper like you said that allow
you to scurry up a ladder but if you don't have
the moral courage and you don't understand actual
leadership what that means especially servant
leadership then you're not actually fit for that
position at all yeah there were there was something
A paradigm I noticed early in my law enforcement
career that always confounded me, and that was
you would see, you know, as a new cop walking
around, you know, the hallways, I would see,
you know, veteran cops walking up to other veterans
or, you know, sergeants or lieutenants. And the
first thing out of their mouth, almost, you know,
you could predict it, when they started talking
is they would recite. The number of years, months,
days, hours and seconds it was until their retirement.
And I used to think, what the hell is going on
here? You know, why? And these were all people
that I looked up to, you know, people when I
was out in the street, you know, when they were
my FTOs, when they were my supervisors, I admired
them. But I couldn't figure out why. at a point
in their career when people should be reveling
in and taking advantage of everything they've
learned and being proud of that, that all they
can do is count the seconds until they can stop
doing it. And that used to drive me crazy because
it's like this cancer in the department because
You know, you gain experience, you get to a point
where you're good at something and you should
take pride and joy in that ability. But instead,
they're so disillusioned with the job that they're
doing that they can't wait to leave it. And then
when a young guy like me saw that, I was thinking,
well, why am I doing this if that's how I'm going
to end up? And one of the things for me was that
I vowed to myself I wasn't going to be that person.
I wasn't going to walk up and say, hey, I can't
wait to retire to every one of my friends. I
wanted to be proud of what I did up until the
point that I left it. And I wanted to regret
leaving it because I wanted to get to a point
where I would. if I had to leave early because
I had more to do. I had more to teach. I had
more to share with others. And I lament that,
you know, I don't see more of that in the services,
you know, that people, you know, with years and
years of service aren't held up as examples of
things that, you know, other younger people could
be. Because, I mean, if you sit and talk to people
with experience, you know, on a day -to -day
basis, and some of these people you talk to are,
I have no doubt, extraordinary in the things
they've, you know, endured and learned. The lessons
that they have for other people are just remarkable.
And we just throw them away, you know, we just...
We kind of use them up and crumple them up and
toss them in the trash, and they know we're doing
that to them, and they don't like it. I think
it's a two -pronged element. It's firstly, like
you said, the environment. Are they investing
in their people? Is it a healthy work week? Are
they promoting people not just on pieces of paper
but on merit as well? Are they taking care of
themselves as they transition out into something
else? Because I was talking to someone this morning.
There is no VA for first responders. I like the
term disposable heroes because it's true. You
walk out the door, don't let the door hit you
on the ass, and good luck with all those physical
and mental health ailments that you've got. And
that's not doom and gloom. That's just a reality,
and I think it's something that we could work
on. But then the other thing, which I thought
was interesting, is that the time that we serve
is dictated by a pension, not by your desire
and when that finally fizzles out, whenever that
is, the organic end of that particular chapter
in your life. But no, this PERS or CalPERS or
FRS says, well, you've got to stay here 25 years.
And then you've got a five -year drop. And it's
like, well, does that align with when you're
ready to go and do something else? No, it doesn't.
So that's when you get these guys with the countdown
apps. Between those two things, either A, they're
in an environment that's just not nurturing them.
I'm not saying it's just the organization. Obviously,
the person's got to have ownership as well. But
if they're in a toxic environment that is now...
beating them down and then they're chasing you
know a magic date on a calendar for a pension
that doesn't you know that's not where you get
excitement performance and it's not when as you
said you don't get these excited people preaching
to the next generation about how amazing it is
to be a police officer or a firefighter you know
if you're if the rhetoric and i've talked about
this a lot is well you wait 10 years from now
you'll be on your third marriage and have an
alcohol problem That's not healthy rhetoric.
It's not funny. I know we joke about it, but
there's nothing funny about that at all. If you
look at a lot of high -performing teams around
the world, whether it's in the military or ocean
lifeguards or in business, they're focusing on
their rest and recovery, their mental health,
their physical standards, so they can optimize.
But holding up on the pedestal the kind of broken,
burnt -out police officer or firefighter, It's
a horrible recruitment tool, but it's a horrible
way of even running an organization. Yeah, I
agree. So you end up going into the law enforcement.
Was it Bakersfield that you actually worked in
specifically? Yeah. While I was working as a
paramedic, I became a reserve for a period of
time. And almost as soon as I finished my reserve
training, I, you know, I tested for full time.
And back in January 23rd, 1984, I was hired full
time with the Kern County Sheriff's Department.
So you mentioned, obviously, private ambulance
company. It sounded like you were more rural.
Was the change as far as the lens that you had
now as a police officer, knowing someone like,
you know, Bakersfield has poorer areas, has gangs,
has some, you know, more desperate people in
society now? Well, like many, you know, sheriff's
departments, when, you know, when you get out,
I don't know if it's still that way, but when
I got hired on. You go through the academy, your
basic academy. I went through field training.
After I got out of field training, I was immediately
transferred into the jail. So I worked corrections
for probably three years before I, you know,
got back out on the street. So, of course, they
do that, or they did that at the time, of course,
because they needed to staff the jails. No one
with seniority, you know, or few people with
seniority wanted to work in the jails. And so
it was kind of a convenient training ground,
you know, to kind of temper, you know, the rookies,
you know, after they got out of the academy with,
you know, kind of a law enforcement environment,
the chain of command, you're constantly exposed
to, you know. uh misdemeanor criminals and a
few you know hardened criminals but uh it kind
of teaches you to you know how to deal with that
element in a kind of controlled environment um
you know which uh there's you know arguments
either way but i found it valuable in preparing
me for the streets when i did finally you know
get to transfer out but uh Pretty much all of
my street law enforcement was originally seen
through that kind of institutional lens of the
jails. And what about when you actually ended
up on the streets? Were there any kind of aha
moments as far as some of the desperation that
existed behind the facade of modern American
society? No. Not really. I mean, when you work
as a paramedic, and I also worked in Bakersfield
as a medic and a paramedic trainer for about
probably two or three years. So I had experience
in the area generally where I was now a cop.
And it was, you know, I saw the same customers
just in a slightly different context. What started
to happen at that point is a recognition that
whatever humanity, that reservoir of humanity
I'd managed to save up in my first 25 plus years
of life was slowly being eaten away by the job
of law enforcement. When I was on an ambulance
and working as a medic, people were... They may
not have been happy, but they were happy to see
us. We were helping people directly and unequivocally.
You know, nobody was ever nervous about paramedics
showing up. You know, nobody looks in the rearview
mirror and sees an ambulance or a fire truck,
you know, just driving along and, you know, suddenly
starts, you know, abiding by the vehicle code.
It's a completely different. dynamic for interacting
with the public. And there's a, you know, it's
I'm sure been described in literature, you know,
numerous times, but there's a metamorphosis you
go through where, you know, you start law enforcement
and, you know, you start to hate the people that
you're serving because they're all the ones you
come in contact with. are, you know, victimizing
other people or they're under the influence or
they're all at some sort of extremist that's,
you know, uniformly negative and they do not
want to see you. They do not want to have anything
to do with you. And, you know, sometimes you
have to use force against them. You know, sometimes
you have to hurt them to do your job and sometimes
they hurt you. And that's, none of that exists.
very little of that exists, you know, in EMS.
And, you know, where in EMS you're kind of, like
I said, there's humanity in helping others, directly
helping others. And certainly law enforcement
is helping society generally, but it does so
by virtue of the police powers to make people
do things that you know, or either detrimental
to society, to themselves, uh, you know, or to
others. And so, uh, that's it. And that, that
dynamic doesn't like overcome you right away.
There's, you know, I can't think of any like
watershed moments where I went, ah, everybody
hates me. Uh, you know, just cause I'm wearing
this badge, uh, it, it happens over time. And
in fact, At one point, I went back and recertified
as a paramedic just so I could recapture, you
know, I'd go out and work a few shifts with the
ambulance company. And, you know, it's just so
I could recapture a little bit of that, you know,
quickly draining humanity. And you can feel it
almost palpably in your attitude towards, you
know, when you walk into a call, you know, you
just. you're on edge you're you're expecting
you know to be treated poorly and maybe even
somebody trying to hurt or kill you and so that
over time that's kind of very psychically and
mentally destructive prior to the shooting in
97 What was some of the, again, career calls
or near misses or even loss of colleagues that
you had in that period? Well, I remember a few
funerals. I remember losing a friend, Rick McHale.
He attempted to detain somebody who was mentally
ill. And he was alone, one man car. The guy overpowered
him and beat him with his own firearm to the
point where he was unrecognizable. And I can
remember going into the hospital and seeing him
in the bed and thinking, that's not Rick. That
doesn't look anything like Rick. He survived
a couple of days and then he finally passed.
At the time, I didn't really internalize that.
It was certainly a striking and emotionally draining
event. But it wasn't until June. of 1987 when
I was just sitting there doing some paperwork.
And I saw this motorcycle drive through the parking
lot where I stopped to do my paperwork. Didn't
have any headlights on. It's the middle of the
night, no helmet. So I tossed my clipboard into
my briefcase and put it in drive and pulled in
behind him and pulled him over. As soon as I
got him pulled over, you know, I trained my spotlight
on him. I started to get out of the car and he
started to push his motorcycle out of the curtain
of light that I, you know, has shown on him.
Got on my PA and told him to stay put, you know,
not to move. Got out of my car and started walking
towards him and he again kind of pushed his bike
out of the headlights. spotlight. And I again
ordered him to stop. I approached him. He was
really nervous, sweating. It was a warm evening,
but he hadn't been doing anything physical except
riding his motorcycle. So he shouldn't have been
sweating like he was. And he was obviously, you
know, he kept looking around, you know, checking
the area while he was talking to me. I got his
license or his California ID. rent his license.
And as I was waiting for the, you know, warrant
return from the dispatcher, I was just watching
him. I was thinking, man, if I so much as, you
know, take a deep breath, he's going to be, he's
either going to be on me or he's going to be,
you know, he's going to, we're going to be in
a foot pursuit. So I started to kind of move
closer to him. The dispatcher came back 1032F,
which is the code for a felony, our code for
a felony warrant. And I didn't answer the dispatcher.
I didn't react at all because I knew, you know,
he didn't know if that was a quality of response
for me or somebody else on the radio. I just
wanted to get my hands on him before he took
off. So I moved towards him as I did so. I told
him he was under arrest. And we started to struggle.
I was able to get behind him, get him in a carotid
artery restraint. I don't think they're doing
those anymore. But at the time, it was part of
the use of force continuum. He went unconscious.
I remember I was standing up. When he went unconscious,
so I let go of him. He fell down to the ground.
I can remember his head hitting the pavement.
And I remember thinking, oh, crap, now I'm going
to spend the rest of the night, you know, while
he gets checked out in the hospital because,
you know, I've dropped him and he's probably
been injured. So I get down. I start to, I get
one handcuff on one wrist. uh, before I can get
the second handcuff on him, he just explodes
underneath me. He's just like a flurry of movement
and we're, we're wrestling again. And so I get,
I get, I managed to work my way around behind
him and I try to, you know, uh, try the carotid
artery restraint again, but he'd learned, you
know, he, you know, he knew that if I got my
arm around his neck completely, he was going
to be unconscious again. He put his chin down
to his chest and he began chewing on my forearm.
And I remember thinking, well, you know, fuck
that. I'm going to, I'll just break his jaw.
And I, you know, I started pulling back harder
and suddenly I felt something. It felt just like
somebody had shoved a hot poker into my back
and then through my arm and then into my leg.
And I realized I'd been stabbed. And, you know,
we continue to struggle. And I stood up and I
kind of pushed him away from me. And as he was,
you know, kind of falling back away from me,
I drew and I fired. And I remember he said something
like, OK, OK. And then he took off running across
the street. And as he ran, I fired again. And
before he turned right, and the second time I
fired, he just dropped like he was a sack of
potatoes, like he was completely limp. But then
he sprung up again, almost as if I hadn't even
shot him, and went running down the fence line
towards the next block. I fired a total of six
times, seven times. I remember the last time,
just before he went around the corner, I can
remember my front sight between his shoulder
blades. I squeezed off the last shot and he disappeared
around the corner. At that point, I got on the
radio and I told the dispatcher, 999, 998, officer
stabbed, shots fired. I'm in foot pursuit. And
I went after him. And I got around the corner.
He was nowhere to be seen. But I saw a couple
of, you know, teenagers, you know, a few, you
know, 10, 15 yards away and ran up to them. And
I says, hey, did you see somebody run this way?
And I can still remember their eyes were about
as big around as half dollars. You know, I was
standing there, a smoking gun in one hand and
my flashlight in the other. And the kid goes,
yeah, he went down that alley back there. We
heard the shots and we're scared as well. go
home. And I turned around, I went back to the
alley and at first I didn't see him, but I found
him about 25, 30 yards down the alley, face down.
And that was, you know, I put my gun on him.
I remember thinking, okay, my slides forward,
it didn't lock back on an empty magazine. So
I must have at least one round left. And so if
he so much as moves, that one round is going
to go into his head. And, you know, he didn't
move. My backup got me, got there a few minutes
later. I remember hearing the canine officer.
He says, I'm with the officer. Looks like he's
code four. And I remember that I thought at the
time, well, I'm code four. Yes, I'm standing.
But I'm definitely not okay. I've got a few extra
holes in me. And they finally, you know, got
me, you know, got him cuffed up and started taking
care of me. And I ended up, you know, being transferred
to the hospital. I came back to work about a
year later. And Mr. the suspect didn't survive
the incident. What happened during that, though,
you know, as, you know, kind of, you know, violent
and visceral as that all was, that I was worried
about afterwards, you know, when I knew I was
probably going to live, was I was worried about
the mistake that I had made while I was taking
him into custody. What we'd learn in the academy
when you... apply a carotid artery restraint
is that you, you know, you, once they go unconscious,
you go down to your knees and then you use a
very specific kind of type of control hold to
roll them over on their back and keep them in
control while you put the handcuffs on. But I
didn't do that. I just, you know, I did like
I'd learned in the jail when I worked in corrections.
You know, I just, you know. rendered him unconscious
and let go of him. And in a jail setting, even
though that would have been wrong, even in the
jail, you know, you've got backup, you know,
your other officers are around. Usually when
that happens, there's not a problem with them
regaining consciousness. But because I didn't
do that, he was able to regain consciousness
and, you know, continue the fight. And had I
done it correctly, You know, I likely would have
been able to control him. And I was really worried
afterwards because I thought, man, I'm in trouble.
You know, I screwed up and somebody's dead. And,
you know, that's that's not good. So I remember
when the investigator came in to, you know, ask
me what happened in the hospital. I'm like, well,
you know, I told him what I did, you know, and
I I'm like, you know. am I, I'm in trouble, aren't
I? And he's like, nah, nah, you're, you're fine.
He says, that's, you know, that's just the sort
of thing that happens in, you know, combat. And
I'm like, okay. And, I mean, I was, on one hand,
I was relieved to hear that. But on the other
hand, I still figured that somebody eventually
was going to read his report and think, oh, well,
that was, this is fucked up. You know, Morgan
did this wrong. And now, You know, the consequences
when you're injured like that are huge. I mean,
the medical bills, the people that worry about
you, the public attention. I mean, there's just
so much energy that is expended when somebody
in public service is injured to feel, to be responsible
for all of that consequence. just weighed on
me and i kept thinking this is my fault you know
if i'd done my job right none of this would have
happened he would have been in custody we he'd
have gone to jail and i got home that night instead
all of this other stuff occurs you know this
and it when you're in the middle of it you can
see how monumental at all is how unnecessary
it felt to me that, you know, that all of this
should result from something I did wrong. And
so, you know, I got out of the hospital and time
went on and I didn't get in trouble. They gave
me a fucking medal. And I accepted it. But it
never sat right with me. It was like this thing
stuck in my mind constantly, you know, that you
made this mistake. And that led to a lot of kind
of introspection about, you know, what's my duty
now? You know, I've recognized this. I've looked
at this clear -eyed. It's, I don't think, you
know, I'm having. like an emotional reaction
to what I saw and did. I think that that, you
know, was a, you know, reasonable minds can differ,
whether it's reasonable for me to make a mistake
in a circumstance like that, such as that. But
you can't deny that if your failure to do your
job properly results in something of such consequence.
that you have some responsibility for that. And
that led me to, well, how do I, what's my responsibility?
They're not going to hold me to account. You
know, the department thinks I'm some sort of
hero. And, you know, my friends think I am, but
what do I do? Do I stand up on a pedestal and
say, hey? You know, you should stone me. You
know, I'm bad. You know, I did a bad thing and
I should be punished. And that didn't make any
sense to me. But what did make sense to me was
that it should never happen again. And I could
control that. I couldn't control any of that
other crap. But I could control the type of officer
I was. That was like, for me, that was like marching
orders. That was like a quest I was on then to
be the best deputy sheriff that I could possibly
be. And I went about it deliberately. I started
taking classes. I'd spend my own money. I sent
myself to gun site in Arizona. I sent myself
to combat shotgun training. And I paid for all
of this, like I said, I paid for all of this
myself because it was, to me, it was my responsibility.
I became a field training officer. I applied
for and got accepted to the SWAT team. I started
taking my prerequisites for law school because
I thought that would be, you know, like a scholastic
type of approach to me being better at my job.
That would again, you know, prevent me from doing
something stupid like this, like I had done in
the future. And that I spent the next 10 years
of my career constantly going through scenarios
in my head. You know, I learned about visualization
and I spent every, almost every waking hour of
not only my on -duty life, but off -duty life.
gaming, you know, survival of lethal encounters
at any point in my life, at any point in my day.
And the whole, all of this became like second
nature for me. And that, you know, kind of led
to the event you mentioned earlier, the shooting
10 years later, almost exactly 10 years later.
What was the, just before we get to that, what
was the backstory of the man on the bike? What
was his criminal history and why was he so nervous
at that moment? He was a longtime meth addict,
petty criminal. He had a burglary warrant. So
he knew, you know, he was going to jail. And
he was tweaking at the time. He was coming down.
He was still under the influence of methamphetamine,
but he was probably going to be needing one soon
to, you know, get his blood levels back up. So
he was in that stage where they get where they're
all, you know, fidgety and nervous, even, you
know, if nothing else is happening. So, yeah,
21 years old, local family, you know, local known
criminal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get to that.
But I mean, obviously, you know, the backstory
of how these young men get to this point is also,
you know, an important part of this conversation.
And it seems like even back then, when you're
looking in the mirror and not feeling comfortable
with the, you know, the applause and the medals,
this is, you know, that shared humanity and knowing
that all of us are on this path until it bifurcates
and sends some on a good path and some on a bad
path. So with that being said, talk to me about
April 13th, 1997. Okay, well, that was my first
night with a brand new trainee. I'd just gotten
back from the Baker to Vegas race like the day
before. In the previous three months, my wife
and I had run like three trail marathons. That's
what we did for fun was run long distances. I'm
sure you probably, you probably heard of the
Baker to Vegas race. That's a 120 mile relay
that goes from Baker, California to Las Vegas.
And I was part of the sheriff's team, you know,
that ran, you know, the race every year. And
so, like I said, I just finished my leg of that.
So suffice to say at the time I was in pretty
good physical condition. I was, you know, Like
I said, a field training officer. I was on the
SWAT team. Brand new trainee. Well, I say brand
new. He was, Dave had actually been in court
services for a number of years. And he was transferring
out to go to a substation and work the streets.
And he'd been through field training before.
And because he'd been through field training
before, he wasn't going to go through a full
program with me like you would normally go through.
He'd normally like spend four weeks with me.
And then he'd go to two other training officers
for four weeks and then come back to me for two
more weeks. In his case, he was just going to
spend, I think, four weeks with me and then be
sent back out on the street. But the thing is,
is that Dave, you know, he's like I said, he's
been working court services for the last. you
know, 20 years of his, 15 years of his career.
So he hasn't been on the street. You know, he's
got to relearn, you know, how to use the radio,
get some deep knowledge, you know, get comfortable
with, you know, dealing with people in a street
environment versus, you know, a courtroom environment.
But as soon as we get in the car, You know, I
haven't even really been able to talk to him
that much, find out much more about him. But
we get a call for shots fired in the area of
Berk and Madison, right in the center of our
beat. And it was, you know, shots fired in that
neighborhood were, you know, entirely common
at any time of the day, but especially at night.
So I wasn't particularly on guard, you know,
when we went down there any more than I would
normally be. We get to the area. We pull up in
an old Pinto and parked in front of a residence.
And you can see two heads in the front seat of
the car. And so we pull in behind it and light
it up. And I, you know, say, I asked Dave if
he felt comfortable, you know, you know, to go
up and contact the passenger, you know, and I
told him I would stand up. side and watch, you
know, so he could get right into it. So he walks
up to the passenger, you know, motions for him
to roll the window down. I can see they're having
a conversation from where I'm at, and I'm back
probably 30 feet from the car, up kind of forward
of the passenger or the driver's door. So I can
see, even see into the front windshield, but
they can't see me because of this. you know,
the bright spotlights and high beams from the
patrol car. And I'm just watching Dave and watching
the driver, you know, and making sure that, you
know, he doesn't do something, you know, concerning.
And Dave gets the passenger out and he starts
doing a pat -down search on him. As he's patting
him down, he yells out something like, I've got
a gun or I've got a weapon. And I'm... And as
soon as he says that, the kid that he's patting
down takes off running down the street. And I
immediately, I'm kind of equal or even to where
he's at on the street, but I'm kind of on the
other side of the street or in the far lane.
And I go running after it. Dave sees the kid
go around the corner and into a backyard. He
decides he's going to go around the other side
of the house to cut him off. I come around the
corner, you know, swinging wide in the corners,
cutting the pie, making sure, you know, that
I, you know, I don't run up on him. And as I
come around the back of the house, I see him
trying to force his way into the back door of
the house. So at this point, I've got, you know,
kind of a bit of a conundrum. You know, my partner
says, I've got a gun. So does he mean he's got
the gun? Did he get the gun away from the kid?
I don't see anything in the kid's hands, so there's
no gun in his hands. I'm not entirely sure of
my backstop. The walls of those houses in that
neighborhood can be pretty thin. If I fire and
miss, do I end up hitting somebody in that bedroom
or room that he's trying to get into? I yell
at him to stop, show me his hands, turn around.
He keeps trying to get into the residence now.
I've got a choice there. Do I use deadly force?
I didn't feel I had enough to use deadly force
at that point. No visible weapon. He's not making
any threatening gestures towards me. But he's
also not following my orders. Can I let him get
into that residence? If he gets into the residence
and shuts the door, what do I do? I've got a
barricaded suspect. There could be innocent people
in that house. I made the decision at that point
to close on him and prevent him from entering
the house and try to take him into custody. And
that, you know, at that point, the fight's on.
He's probably, he's shorter than I am, maybe
five. eight, maybe 200, 220 stocky. So he's a
handful. And as we struggle, you know, all my
equipment, you know, I lose my primary sidearm,
comes out of my holster, my baton comes out.
My pepper spray is gone. And as we're struggling,
I can suddenly kind of feel his hands. Her arms
going down to his belt line. And the next thing
I know, there's like this brilliant flash. And
I can't feel anything. I'm like floating in a
bath of warm water. I can't feel pressure. I
can't feel my body. And I remember being just
incredibly frustrated. I had, you know, I'd been
training myself for the past 10 years for this
exact circumstance, you know, the fight for my
life, you know, against somebody trying to kill
me. And when you run scenarios, you know, visualizations,
you always prevail. You never run a visualization
where you fail, where you die. You always win.
You're always able to do something. Needless
to say, so I never like gamed out what I would
do if I was paralyzed because it's kind of a
senseless exercise. And that just, it was overwhelmingly
frustrating. But suddenly I was able to move.
As soon as I was able to move, I started, you
know, I remember, you know, feeling around on
the ground for a weapon because he's standing
over me at this point. And kind of, you know,
looking around like he's looking for my partner.
I can't, you know, I can't find that weapon around
me. But I reach into my vest pocket where I keep
my backup weapon. I pull it out as I pull my
backup weapon and point it at him. He grabs it
out of my hand, turns around. points it at me
and pulls the trigger. My backup weapon didn't
go off. So he cycles the slide, points it at
me again and pulls the trigger. Again, it doesn't
go off. He cycles the slide and points it at
me and pulls the trigger. At this point, like
I said, I'm out of weapons. So I was able to
grab a board that was sitting nearby, like a
long stick or piece of lumber. And I picked it
up and I hit him in the side of the head with
it. He kind of, you know, backs away and then
he comes right back at me and punches me between
the eyes with his fist. I go down. When I come
back up, he's gone. And I remember thinking at
the time, nobody's ever died standing up. So
I, you know, I stood up and I started moving
around to the front of the residence. He had
shot me with a .410 caliber single shot Derringer.
It was loaded with a high base round of birdshot
that about 130 pellets entered my neck right
about here, along with the wadding and kind of
distributed throughout the interior of my neck.
My brief paralysis was probably when those pellets
hit my spine. Miraculously, you know, even though
I have several that are up against my carotid
artery and jugular veins, none of them. pierced
through those large major, major veins or arteries.
Um, I got around to the front of the house. Uh,
I, you know, kind of, uh, uh, laid down on the
ground and a little while later, my good friend,
another good friend came up to me and, you know,
he's checking me out and I told him, you know,
uh, Because I knew this was bad. I told him to
tell Christy I love her. I'd been married a year
before to my beautiful bride, Christy. And he
looks at me and he goes, you can tell her yourself.
And, you know, I just let him go to work on me
then. The suspect, Jason, 16 or 17 year old Jason
Samuel, had run around the front of the house.
broken in the front door with my backup gun still,
and got into a struggle with the occupant of
the house, who was a drug dealer we found out
later, and actually around discharged from my
gun inside the house while they were struggling
over the gun. Eventually, the drug dealer got
the gun away from him and then threw him out
the front door to the waiting cops, and a few
minutes later, he threw the gun out. They loaded
me up in the ambulance. And as I was en route
to the hospital, the swelling from the injury,
you know, was getting worse and worse. And each
breath, it was like crazy that each breath I
took, I thought, okay, this is the last one,
you know, and then I'd somehow managed to squeeze
another one through there, you know, and that.
It was like each time was this like final effort
for me, you know, over and over again as we drove
to the hospital. And I remember I thought to
myself, I've got to calm down. I've got to, you
know, just, you know, relax and, you know, not
panic. And then maybe it'll be easier to breathe.
So I closed my eyes. And I just tried to concentrate
on each breath, which completely freaked out
the poor deputy that had been sent to ride with
me to the hospital. He's like screaming at me,
Tom, Tom, open your eyes. You're going to be
okay. You can make it, you know. Unfortunately,
I can't talk at that point, but I just want to
tell him, hey, Eric, I just need to chill. I
need to relax. Don't suffocate before I get to
the hospital. We eventually got to the hospital.
And the last thing I remember was that bright
light of the emergency room sign. It's right
over the emergency room doors. It's big red lettering,
you know, emergency. They opened the back door
and they're getting ready to take me out. And
that I thought, OK, that's I've made it this
far. I don't I can't take another breath. it's
up to you guys, you know, it's, I'm in the, in
the hands of the current medical center, uh,
emergency department. And, uh, they did a pretty
good job. Um, they were able to get me intubated,
um, took me into surgery, you know, were able
to get a few of the pellets out. Uh, but I needed,
uh, uh, somebody with a little more experience
in that. So they, Tossed me in a helicopter and
flew me down to UCLA where I spent probably about
a month after that getting additional surgeries
and getting patched up before they sent me home.
On the physical side first, what was the damage
inflicted by that 410 round? It just turned this
section of my neck into like hamburger. You know,
it just, all those pellets, it just. gone through
there ripped all of the muscle tissue and uh
i remember asking the doctor the head and neck
surgeon you know and i couldn't talk afterwards
when i was in the hospital i had to write everything
down so i wrote to the doctor what's my prognosis
and he looks at me he goes well we've never actually
had anybody survive an injury like this so we're
not sure we're just gonna have to see i'm like
Thanks, Doc. Thanks to the bedside confidence.
Yeah. I found out that head and neck surgeons
don't have to have good bedside manners because
their patients usually aren't in a condition
where they care that much. And true to form,
he was a good guy. He saved my ass. He did not
pull punches when you asked him questions. Now,
what about Christy? Obviously, this is going
to be an important part of the conversation later
as well. You're newlyweds. This happens. Even
though she's witnessing you being extremely diligent
in your preparation for this position, what is
the impact on her in those initial few weeks?
It was devastating. It's something that was one
of the many lessons that that thing taught me
was it's a lot easier to, you know, get injured
than it is to watch someone you love get injured.
I would take that every day of the week, you
know, getting run over by a car, getting shot,
getting stabbed. You know, if I turn it around,
if I thought about it, if I had to watch her
go through that, no way. That's I would if you
gave me a choice between the two, I'd say, you
know, start it up. You know, let's let's go do
me because I can't I can't watch somebody I love,
you know, get hurt. And that was really hard
because, you know, we're our job is to fix things.
Right. As a medic, as a cop, you're in charge.
You're supposed to fix everything. The solution
may not always be elegant or the best one, but
by God, you're going to come up with one. And
that was one of the hardest lessons I learned
over the next 18 years was how little we can
do to fix other people, you know, and, uh, that,
but, but of course at the beginning I struggled,
you know, I, I wanted to fix things. I wanted
to, I wanted to help her. Um, and I couldn't,
I, I absolutely, I was the one that needed help.
And so, um, and in That's also in contrast. It's
not her job to help me either. But of course,
I thought my job was to help her and she thought
her job was to help me. But none of those things,
they're not even remotely possible. And so you
have these two people, you know, constantly,
you know, in conflict and at odds with. their
primary directive, you know, to help the one
they love when all along they're neglecting the
only thing that really matters and that's themselves.
And that's the kind of dynamic I found myself
in for the next, you know, 15 years. You know,
what, you know, and what happens when people,
when they're, when they're injured or when they're
in pain. The thing about injury and pain is that
it's something somebody does to you or something
that happens to you. It may not be a somebody
that does it. It could be a rock falling off
a cliff or, you know, you trip on a crack in
the sidewalk. But whatever it is, it's not you.
You're not doing it to yourself. You know, somebody
else does it to you. You feel the pain, you experience
the trauma, and then it's human nature, you know,
when you're trying to react to that, to become
angry, you know, for this pain that's been done
to you, regardless of, and it really, trauma
is like fungible. It doesn't really matter how
it's caused or what causes it. If you're damaged
somehow by something or someone, you're going
to feel pain and then you're going to be angry
initially at whatever caused that pain. But eventually,
much like trauma, anger is also fungible. It
doesn't really care who it eventually focuses
on. And the amount of pain and anger that Christy
had experienced in my nearly losing my life was
earth shattering. I mean, she's a passionate
person just anyway. And the damage that had been
done, the pain that had been inflicted on her
both growing up and with my injury, you know,
turned her into somebody, you know, that at times
I didn't recognize at all. And I, because we
were together all the time, I mean, we had no
one, no family that lives close. But I would
argue that wouldn't really make any difference.
You know, we kind of retreated into our home
and into our lives. And, you know, we were left
to deal with the consequences of that pain and
that anger, which, you know, she often turned
on me. And, you know, to be fair, she would turn
it on anything, you know, that, you know, gave
her an opportunity. But that led to deep depression,
guilt, drug abuse, addiction. And, you know,
a lot of this, you know, resulted from her not
having a difficult time trusting people, you
know, because she'd been abandoned when she was
a child. uh, by her mother. And in some ways
she looked on my injury as an abandonment of
her. You know, I was, you know, I had been the
strong, the rock in the relationship, you know,
working, protecting. And then suddenly I'm like,
you know, useless, you know, like recovering
and not able to, to do the things that I'd been
able to do before. which is a form of abandonment
again. And in my recognition of that, I saw that
the one thing that I could do was that I could
be trustworthy. I could be somebody that she
could always know, you know, had her best interest
at heart. One of the consequences of that was
like, Like I said, she was addicted to barbiturates.
And I never, until she disclosed that one day
in a speech in front of a bunch of people that
we gave after our victim -offender dialogue,
I never told anyone that. I hadn't gone to a
counselor. I hadn't told a friend. I told none
of my relatives. I kept my promise to her that
I wouldn't disclose that because it wasn't my
information to disclose. You know, I know it's
good to talk about things, you know, that we
struggle with. You know, I know the value of
disclosure, you know, disclosing our struggles
to others so we can gain strength from that.
But for me, it was much more important to maintain
that trust with her than almost anything else.
That it was important to me that she know that.
of every other person on the world in the face
of this planet that, you know, I was the one
person that would never breach that trust. And
so I never, ever, not to anyone said, you know,
I'm living with an addict. Which, you know, created
a bit of a conundrum because I came to understand
that I had to, To take care of her, the first
thing I had to do was take care of myself. And
how do I take care of myself if I can't talk
to somebody about what I'm going through? And
for me, anyway, the inescapable conclusion was
that I had to. I had to be happy with myself,
with my life, with my circumstance. I had to
be content with it, however it was. And that
required that I internalize that, you know, we're
only responsible for ourselves and we can't help
anybody else. And so, you know, I went back to
law school. When I got injured, I was in my third
year. I got on with my life. I continued, you
know, my physical activities. And I took care
of myself to the best of my ability by myself
without sharing any of that with anyone else.
And over time, I reached a kind of an equilibrium
where I was happy. It was sad for me to watch
her go through her struggles, but I knew that
if I let them destroy me, that if she should
ever come through to the end of this in one piece,
that I wanted to still be there for her when
she... you know, was strong enough to take those
steps. And so that meant that I couldn't, I couldn't
pretend to be happy. I had to be happy. I had
to be satisfied in my life because, you know,
people know, they know if you're faking it. You
know, there were times I didn't, you know, I
wondered whether, you know, anything was ever
going to work out, whether she was ever going
to get off the drugs, whether she was ever going
to be happy again. And I just thought, I can't,
there's nothing I can do about that. I can't
change her, but I can be, I can be here. And
if I'm happy with the cards that we've been dealt.
Then maybe she'll look at me and think, well,
maybe it's possible for me to do the same thing.
And so that was kind of, you know, the. I don't
know, it was like this. It was like this test
that I was undergoing during this time to see
whether or not I was capable of being. content
with the life that I was living. Sincerely, honestly
content with it. And, you know, did I always
pass? You know, was I always, you know, come
to the right conclusion? Did I always do what
I was supposed to do? Fuck no. I mean, I made
so many mistakes. I did so badly so many times
that, you know, where things could have, you
know, gone completely into the shitter. that
I can't tell you. But somehow I always managed
to keep enough of my wits about me not to destroy
what we had and to maintain my kind of forward
and upward momentum in my life. And then we got
that notice that Jason, the kid that shot me,
was up for parole. I hadn't expected that to
happen when it did. He was supposed to be in
prison for another five years. But what I hadn't
noticed in the meantime since his sentencing
was that they passed some juvenile offender statutes
that allowed him to be eligible sooner than he
might have been otherwise. And he'd applied.
And I remember I. I didn't want to tell Christy
that he was up for parole because anything at
that point in our lives, we, you know, it'd been
18 years since the shooting, you know, like I
said, we'd reached a kind of a, you know, an
equilibrium in our lives. She was still addicted,
still angry, still, you know, struggling with
her demons. But our, our dynamic was, you know,
you know, I loved her. I was with her and I wasn't
going to leave. But things like, you know, anything
could set her off and kind of bring her back
to that time when I got shot. You know, a knock
on the door. We might be watching something on
TV and there'll be an advertisement for a cop
show. And they'll show some cop on a ventilator
in a hospital. You know, I mean, any of these
things could just drive her, you know, into deep
depression. And I was afraid that this, you know,
parole hearing thing might do the same thing.
So I wasn't even going to show up for it. I was
just going to kind of ignore it, pretend it didn't
happen. And I thought, well, you know, hopefully
they'll keep him in prison. You know, the hearing's
approaching. I get contacted by the DA's office,
who was one of my law school classmates. And
he starts telling me about all of the things
that they're doing to show up at the parole hearing
and make sure that Jason doesn't get out. And
I think to myself, crap, you know, I can't let
them do all this work after everything. that
the department and the DA's office has done for
me. I can't let them do all of this and not at
least show up the day of the hearing. And so
I tell Christy and, you know, it was like the
first surprise of many. She's like, okay, well,
if you think you have to do that, you know, and
I told her I was going to tell, the board that
he should stay in prison. And I prepared for
the day. I, you know, I prepared for his parole
hearing like I would prepare for a court case.
You know, I was ready to, you know, I was going
to tell the board, keep him in prison. You know,
he should never get out. And I remember showing
up for the hearing and, you know, they bring
him in and he's You know, he's not at all what
I expected. You know, I remember him from the
trial. You know, this guy, you know, kind of
husky, you know, by that time, he was 18 years
old. He was tried as an adult. But, you know,
he comes into the parlor, he's kind of overweight,
he's wearing glasses, you know, he's kind of
shuffling in, his head's down. He looks like
he's beaten. And I wrote on my legal pad not
what I expected. And then they proceeded with
the hearing. And I don't know if you've ever
been to a parole hearing, but it's sort of like
this emotional or psychic autopsy. They take
a human being apart piece by piece. Every fault,
everything you've ever done, your criminal history,
your family history. He wasn't old enough to
have a real significant criminal history. when
he shot me, but his family history was horrific.
And then they, they, they go through your, his
psychological profile. And I don't know if you've
ever, you know, had a psychological profile done
on you, but I, I mean, even if you were perfectly
adjusted, I think that would be a painful thing
to have to face somebody objectively going through
every one of your little mental. and faults and
problems. But they finished that. Then the DA
got up to give their argument. His attorney got
up to give her argument. And then Jason gets
to make a statement. And he talked for a while.
One of the significant things is that he basically
admitted to everything that actually happened,
which he had denied at trial. He said he'd shot
me in self -defense and that it was an accident.
Or rather, not self -defense. He said that the
gun had gone off. He was trying to throw the
gun away and that it had accidentally gone off.
Well, if you know anything about Derringers,
you know, single shot, single action Derringers,
you know that, you know. You don't accidentally,
you've got to cock the thing for it to fire and
you don't carry it cocked. But during the parole
hearing, he admitted to everything that he'd
done. He admitted to taking the gun away from
me, my backup gun and pointing it at me and trying
to kill me with it three times. Just to jump
in there, because I'm sure people listening were
wondering what happened. So explain why he wasn't
actually able to fire that weapon. The weapon
I carried as a backup was an HK P7, which has
a squeeze cocking mechanism on the front of the
grip. There's really no other weapon like it.
It's not a safety. It actually needs to be cocked
with that grip device. And so it takes a little
pressure. It takes about 12 pounds of pressure
to actually cock it. And so he didn't know that
when he was trying to use it. And so he just
kept racking live rounds out of the chamber,
you know, when it wouldn't fire. And apparently
when it did fire in the house, while they were
struggling with it, he somehow managed to get
it, you know, cocked accidentally. But that's
why the gun didn't go off. But he then said two
things during the hearing that really, really
stuck with me. One was he said that he'd always
looked at cops as just another gang. And then
he told a story about how an officer had come
in during one of his self -help groups in prison
and had asked Jason, what are you doing in prison?
What'd you get convicted for? And he said he...
He sat down and he told this retired officer,
you know, the whole story. And he said he thought
that he would get to the end of it. This ex -cop
would, you know, be critical of him, criticize
him and tell him that, you know, he was evil
and that he'd done a bad thing and that he regretted
talking to them. But instead, the ex -cop looked
at him and said, you know, Son, you're not the
worst thing you've ever done. You know, you you
can be you can do something different with your
life. You've made a mistake. You're paying the
price for that. But that's that doesn't define
who you are. And I remember him telling the story
in the hearing and he's just tears are streaming
down his face and the remorse and regret are
just palpable in him. And I remember thinking,
you know, wow, you know, if this guy that he
didn't even know, you know, had that kind of
an effect on him, what kind of effect would I
have if I did the same thing, if I sat down with
him? And the other thing about, you know, they
said about. I mean, I thought a lot about this
after the hearing. He got denied parole at that
first hearing. And later when I'm thinking about
it, his statement about him looking at cops as
just another gang, I thought given his upbringing,
we were both products of our environment. We
were both products of who and how we lived and
the things we learned. His product, his, what
he became was almost preordained by, you know,
all of these factors that he had no control over.
His, his broken home, his father in prison, his
mother addicted, his being shuffled from foster
home to foster home, his, you know, lack of education,
his involvement in criminal gangs. I mean, And
many of these young men, that's the only like
recognition and positive influences they have
in their life are gang members. I mean, when
you think about how kind of twisted that is,
at least from our point of view. When I looked
at all of that together, I thought, well, you
know, we were kind of both doing what we were
trained to do by our lives. You know, and we
were like two, you know, missiles that had been
fired off. you know, at birth and we were heading
on this, you know, collision course. And we met,
you know, behind that house that night. And the
result was violence. And the more I thought about
it, the more I thought it would have been strange
had it not ended the way that it did. So I couldn't.
I couldn't look at what he had done and take
it personal because, I mean, he didn't even know
me. I mean, he hated cops, but he had a legitimate
reason to hate cops from his point of view. I,
you know, my job was to catch people that were
breaking the law, you know, bring them to justice.
I was doing what I was supposed to be doing.
And, you know, when I looked at that, I... It
put me in his shoes, you know, where I had not
ever really been before. And that coupled with
the idea that, you know, it would be so easy
for me to try to be a positive influence on him.
It would also be really easy to be a negative
influence. I could insist that he stay in prison.
I could say that he's evil and that, you know,
he'll never amount to anything, but he's going
to get out eventually. And what kind of person
do I want out on the street? Do I want somebody
who I've encouraged and who I've at least given
the dignity of talking to him? Or do I want somebody
that whenever he thinks about me, all he remembers
is that asshole at the parole hearing that said
that he should stay in prison for the rest of
his life? And the choice seemed really simple.
I wasn't angry at him. I understood at least
a little more about where he had come from and
why he had done what he had done. He had taken
ownership of it. And I had a chance to do something
positive in his life. And I had a message for
him, you know, that I wanted to tell him that
I had learned over the previous 18 years, you
know. Living the life that I had lived and that
there was power in adversity. That the bad things
in your life can turn into some of the greatest
assets if you let them do that. And I truly believe
in that based upon my life with Christy. I saw
our lives together. Objectively difficult, it
might seem, as being my greatest strength. My
love for her felt like the linchpin in my existence.
And it meant that I had to focus on myself, not
to the exclusion of her and my love for her,
but... I don't know, to give it substance, to
give, to allow her something to, I don't know,
use as an example or something that she could
depend on in her life of unpredictability. And
I saw that in Jason's life. I saw that he could
take the bad things that had happened to him
and use them to, you know, talk to other young
gang members and say to them, hey. You know,
this is how I've lived my life. And I thought,
what better credibility than the life he's led
to bring that message to other people than what
he's gone through. And so at Jason's second parole
hearing, I made that offer. You know, I said,
you know, I told the parole board, I says, you
know, I'm going to leave the decision in your
hands, but whatever happens, I want. I want to
talk to Jason because of these things that he
had said and the thoughts that I've had since
his first parole hearing. And they, you know,
they didn't have any idea what to do with that.
They're used to, you know, people coming in and,
you know, pounding the table and say, please
don't let this person out. They, again, denied
him parole, but I was left with no way to. You
know, get in touch with Jason, you know, and
that was a genuine offer that I'd made. So I
got a hold of the Department of Corrections and
I got a hold of the victim witness or victim
and survivor services for CDCR. And I asked,
is there a way some way that I could meet with
Jason? You know, I have a message for him. And
they put me in touch with a facilitator for a
program called the Victim Offender Dialogue Program.
Martina Lutz -Snyder was my facilitator, and
she started a series of meetings between her
and I and her and Jason to arrange for this to
happen, to make sure it wasn't going to be damaging
for me and it wasn't going to be damaging for
him and that it didn't create problems for his
incarceration. And while that was going on, we
got approached by, or she got approached by a
CNN production company that was doing a series
called The Redemption Project with Van Jones.
And they were interviewing people who were, you
know, going back into prison and outside of prison
to talk to people that had harmed them to find
out. You know, how those dialogues, those conversations
changed their lives. And I said, sure. Yeah,
I think there's a good message, and I'd love
to do it. Jason agreed to do it. The only person
I had left to convince was my wife, who, you
know, to go back a little bit, it would be hard
to understate the amount of hate and anger she
had for Jason. Just after the shooting, her and
one of the scout snipers for the SWAT team were
actually plotting to assassinate Jason without
my knowledge. I don't know if he was just, you
know, giving her an outlet for her anger or whether
they were seriously considering it. But I know
she was seriously considering it. I mean, her
anger for him was intense and ongoing for a decade
or more. So when I came to Christy and I told
her about the, you know, we were going to do
this, that I did. was thinking about doing this
CNN thing, I expected her to, you know, dive
into depression and, you know, for her anger
to resurface. But to my surprise, what she told
me was, you know, if you think this is something
you have to do, you know, I'll support you. And
so we started preparing, you know, doing the
shooting for the documentary. which she didn't
want to have any part of. And we're coming up
to the victim -offender dialogue, and the facilitator,
Martinez, you know, asks me if I need a support
person for the dialogue. And I'm like, no, I
should be fine. You know, I'm not really doing
this for me. And she says, no, you know, you
should really consider having somebody with you,
you know, so that you can share that experience,
you know, so that it because this this is one
of those things that just doesn't happen that
often. And you want to be able to talk to somebody
about this as the years go by and you reflect
on it. I'm like, sounds like a good idea. I'll
see who I can come up with. So I'm sitting in
bed with Christy one night, you know, going down
my list. You know, people, my short list of people
that I want to, you know, ask to do this. And
I asked her if she, you know, what she thinks.
And she goes, well, what about me? And I was
like, well, what? You know, I did that. That
was like the last thing in the world. I expected
that she would volunteer to be within like even
20 miles of Jason, let alone, you know, be in
the same room or anywhere near it. I said, you
know, sure. I mean, if, you know, if that's if
you if you want to do that, I said, you know,
I I'd be great because you're definitely the
person I'm closest to. And so the day before.
The dialogue, we had like a dry run where we
took Christie to San Quentin and, you know. Just
to experience the whole getting into a prison
thing and seeing what it's like. And she'd never
been in one before. And my facilitator was there.
She had someone with her as well from the program.
And like, I don't know if you've ever been in
a prison, but there, this is San Quentin's like
the archetypal. imposing prison on the planet.
It's this huge rock and stone edifice perched
on the San Francisco Bay, surrounded by barbed
wire and gun towers. It's just imposing. And
so we bring Christy there the day before, and
we're walking up from the parking lot to the
first gates to get in. And literally, you know,
I'm holding one arm. Or Tina's, or facilitator
Allison's holding the other arm. And she, it's
like pulling somebody through like peanut butter.
She's just, she obviously does not want to do
this. Everything in her is saying run, get away,
you know, you don't want to do this. And it's
funny, we don't. really understand how strong
people are, you know, until they're, you know,
not given a choice. And I didn't, I honestly
had no idea how strong my wife was. I, I had,
I had hope that she was that strong, but you
never, you know, everything to that point had
not pointed. You know, like on a day to day basis
that she possessed the kind of strength that
it took to do what she was doing. And then I
can remember we're holding on to her and we're
walking up to the prison and all of a sudden
I can feel her straightening up. And she kind
of, you know, puts her shoulders back, her chest
out and she goes, fuck it. And she just walks
away from me and Allison standing there, you
know, at the gates of San Quentin. to go into
that prison. And I was like, completely amazed.
I had no idea that that was going to happen.
And I thought, man, I've, I've, I've, I've underestimated
this woman for the last time. So, you know, we
go through that the next day, we have the victim
offender dialogue, Jason comes out, we have a
great conversation. You know, he tells me that
You know, I've said things to him that his own
father had never said to him. He's, you know,
he's crying. He's he's remorseful. He's and he's
listening to what I'm saying about, you know,
because I wanted to tell him about the power
that he had. I told I told him your adversity
is like a superpower that you need to grab onto.
You just need to realize it. You know, the strength
that you can gain from the things that you've
gone through. And. He says he understands. He
keeps apologizing for what he had done. And we
come to the break. And the producer comes up
to me and he says, Christy wants to talk to Jason.
And I'm like, what the fuck? I mean, well, I
got to hear this out of her mouth, you know.
Because that doesn't even sound like it's, you
know, that does not sound like you were talking
to my wife. Because, I mean, she was even nervous,
you know, that morning when we came into the
prison, even after that dry run. She was obviously
anxious. You know, she didn't want to be there.
She was scared to death of him and angry at the
same time. So I go to talk to Christy. You know,
she's in tears and she says, I'm so ashamed of
myself. I'm like, what what are you ashamed of?
She says, I'm I hated him for so long and I didn't
I didn't know who I was hating. I didn't know
any of this stuff about his life, about what
he'd been through. I didn't know how sorry he
was, how much he regretted what he had done.
I didn't know all of the things that he'd done
to make himself a better person. She says, and
all I did was hate, hate. She says, I want to
tell him that I forgive him and that I'm sorry.
I'm like, okay. I'm like, yeah. What am I going
to say? We come back out, you know, we start
up the dialogue again. They asked Jason if he,
you know, minded if Christie spoke with him.
And he said, that's, he said he agreed to that.
And I've said this, I don't know, a million times,
but I will never see another more perfect moment
of grace than when my wife walked out and put
her arms around the man that had tried to kill
me and forgave him. It was, you know, I told
you that I would never underestimate my wife's
strength after the day before, but the day after
just proved to me what an amazing woman she is.
And, you know, the kind of, Make a really long
story shorter, hopefully. In the following months,
she quit. She got off the drugs. It was like,
and she said it herself, it was like a huge weight,
that anger and hate. When it was, when she got
rid of it, it was like this huge weight that
had been lifted off her shoulders. And she, the
woman I married was back. Happy, content. Any
anger she had, you know, before all of this happened,
you know, with the life that she'd led, that
was gone. She was happy to be alive, and I was
so thankful that I was there to witness that,
you know, that I hadn't, in my attempts to help,
screwed it up, you know, at some point prior
to that. It was such an amazing lesson for me.
Watching the documentary, the Van Jones CNN documentary,
I sent you a picture this morning of your wife
hugging Jason. I don't know if I mentioned in
the text that I was sobbing like a three -year
-old girl when I was watching it. Because to
me, especially as we sit here now in, you know,
whatever it is, March 2026, with the divisiveness
and more wars starting again and, you know, coming
out the back end of, you know, the division of
COVID and the pandemic and the George Floyd incidents
and, you know, insert whatever you want, you
know, this... well, we just combat hate with
more hate kind of rhetoric that we're getting
at the moment. It is literally what the world
needs at the moment is to hear stories like this.
And I've said this many times on here. We were
left ancient wisdom. If you subscribe to Christianity
or Buddhism or Sikhism, whatever your doctrine
is, they're telling us, be kind to each other,
forgive each other, serve, have community. And
watching this real time or, you know, real time
on the film and hearing the backstory and you
and I talking, you know, a few weeks ago prior
and hearing the full story of the events leading
up to this, it was just so powerful because it's,
you know, it's like that. I'm going to paraphrase,
but you know, that hatred is a poison that, you
know, that you keep within yourself. Like it
just, it only poisons you. And hearing what I
was wondering that you just detailed that not
only did this lead to your wife forgiving. Jason,
but it also helped her heal and forgive all the
trauma that she experienced when she was younger
as well. And then hearing the backstory of Jason
and his trauma. And I would imagine if we were
able to dive into the backstory of that 21 -year
-old methamphetamine addict that you had to take
their life, that you would see a similar thing.
And so the answer is obviously not. throw them
in jail you know lock away the throw away the
key um you know oh your your your friend killed
me i'm gonna kill them you know like the crips
and bloods thing but this is the beautiful example
of what's absolutely needed which is forgiveness
you know and obviously i'm not pretending that
that's going to happen overnight it didn't with
with you and your wife but to hear You know,
the trauma that you went through physically,
mentally, your career, your marriage, you know,
her sobriety, and then leading to this forgiveness
that healed all three of you simultaneously.
I mean, I don't know if there's any words that
can even describe that, to be honest. The, I
guess the irony about. All of it is that it's
actually a lot easier to forgive than it is to
be angry. Anger is your initial reaction to pain,
and it's also very seductive. It feels good to
hate the things that hurt us, at least for a
while. And by the time you're being damaged by
that hate, you know, you forget that there's
any other alternative and that's, then it's hard,
you know, because you've become so invested in
that anger and that, you know, that you, you
don't, you think if you let loose of that, there
won't be anything left, you know, that, and there,
there's, there are some other episodes in the,
that Redemption Project series, there's one where
a mother, her daughter was almost killed by a
drunk driver. And she wasn't killed, but now
she's suffered like these lifelong debilitating
injuries and, you know, a brain injury, I believe.
And the mother, has to do everything for her
she has to you know kind of get her up in the
morning get her through the day and the dialogue
between the the drunk driver that hit her and
uh and her and the mother is so painful to watch
because it's it's cathartic it's helpful for
the woman that was You know, to talk to the person
that nearly killed her. But the mother, you can
tell, has hated this person for so long and so
hard. And she is reminded so constantly on a
daily basis of what she's lost that you can see
that conflict. She can't give into, you know,
the idea that forgiveness would free her because
I think she's afraid of not having anything left
to go on once that anger is taken away. Because
that's what, it's almost as if that sustains,
her anger sustains her dedication to her daughter.
And it's... I mean, I know, you know, I know
if she could free herself from that, she would
be happy. But you can't tell people to do that.
They've got to, just like with Christy, you can't.
I could have spent 20 years telling her not to
hate Jason to no effect. You know, and long before
we got to 20 years, she would have resented me
to the point that, you know. There's no way we
could have stayed together for trying to change
her. But by leaving her alone, by not reacting
to the anger and leaving mine behind, it allowed
her the time to heal herself. And in the end,
the whole thing was her. I was so clueless during
that kind of stretch of time that it's remarkable.
I mean, if you'd have asked me beforehand, you
know, hey, what do you think's going to happen?
I'd have thought, well, you know, more of the
same. She's going to be angry, sad, depressed,
frightened of this guy. But because it was her
decision, because she was allowed to get to it
on her own. She owns that. And there's so much
strength in that ownership. And she had manifested
in her, you know, once, you know, the whole thing
was over. Because she knew it. She knew it wasn't,
she didn't do that because I wanted her to. She
didn't do it because somebody in society told
her she should. She did it because she was strong
enough. to figure it out all by herself. And
people, they have to get there on their own.
Otherwise, it means, the journey means nothing
if somebody else was rowing the boat. You know,
you can't, you know, if you get carried to the
top of Mount Everest, you don't get to put the
flag at the top. You know, it's not the same.
It's so weird that in retrospect, these things
seem so obvious. And you talk about the wisdom
of the ancients. Isn't that what humanity is
all about? This constant, because we all know
the right thing to do somewhere in our hearts.
And yet we still fight against it when just giving
into it would be much easier. I think there's
a couple of things that are just so evident over
and over and over again. One is the assumption
that bad people are bad because they make bad
decisions and losing sight of the fact that we
were all giggling. babies infants we were you
know toddlers that were running around chasing
a ball and coloring you know dogs on paper with
crayons and all the the innocent things that
we are and then whatever's happened in those
formative life combined with the mentors that
you have around because i know a lot of people
that had horrific upbringings that became cops
and firefighters and soldiers but they had those
people that steered them in that direction same
people same trauma gangbanger is now their mentor
in their community all of a sudden they're in
jason's position so losing sight of that understanding
that the more we heal the better the environment
is the fewer criminals the fewer people getting
behind the wheel you know drunk because they're
trying to fill in some boy whatever it is that
then leads to this pain the other thing is there's
no you know it's irrefutable that locking people
up in cages does not work well for recidivism.
And I had the superintendent of Bastøy prison
in Norway on a couple of times now. And they
shifted their prison model to, it's basically
a housing community. These men and women, some
of them are murderers. They lost their freedom.
They are serving time, but they're living in
houses. They cook, they clean, they go to school,
they go to work. You know, their violence on
each other and on officers is almost zero. And
then the whole lens is because, as you said,
one day these people are going to move in back
to your neighborhood. What kind of human do you
want coming back? And the Norwegian model has
the lowest recidivism of anywhere on the planet.
And what they do is they see that these are people
that made mistakes. They have to pay for that
mistake, but that mistake doesn't define them.
And that most of them, the guy that shot up the
summer camp in Norway is in a box in Norway.
He's locked away from society forever. But so
many of these people had these poor upbringings,
surrounded by poor mentors, made poor decisions,
and that you can then do the opposite, surround
people with good mentors, forge good decisions,
and they can become... good members of society
again. So that's kind of, you know, my whole
perspective. You were in law enforcement, you
ultimately transitioned into, you know, the law
side itself. Just to round off this conversation,
if you were king for a day, what would you do?
It can be systemically in society, it can be
behind, you know, in the correction system itself.
What do we need to change to create more healing
journeys like jason did and even avoid some of
these young people going into the world of crime
in the first place well i i guess i'm impressed
that with we didn't i don't know that there's
anything that we can do it it's a remarkably
complex problem and one of the the problems is
is that Fear is such a common tactic, a common
political tactic. I remember just a little story
to illustrate, you know, a bigger point. I remember
when we just finished a SWAT practice. And so
it's a room full of, you know, type A, you know,
high testosterone. Men, exclusively men. And
we were the DA, the elected DA at the time had
dropped by to, I don't know, hang out and chat
with some of the team members and the, you know,
the team leader and commander. And I remember
he got up, he was kind of giving a, not really
a campaign speech, but he was, dude. congratulating
us for something, some operation we'd done or
something. And I remember him lamenting that,
you know, come election time, he was sad that
he envied the sheriff, that the sheriff had a
SWAT team, the DA. And the reason he did that
is because, you know, he wanted that flashy,
you know, uniformed. kind of, you know, it's
the pinnacle of law enforcement. It's something
that you, when you're trying to show your best
officers and your best side, it's the SWAT team
that gets paraded out. They're the go -getters.
They're the ones that really risk their lives,
you know, for the most dangerous things. But
why is it that that is attractive to a law enforcement
administration? And I think it's because it feeds
on that basic, I don't know if I want to call
it a political reality, but that... politicians
want the society to be afraid of their culture,
of their society, because the more afraid they
are, the more money they'll give to their protection.
And the symbol of their protection, you know,
that he was talking about was the SWAT team.
And the DA doesn't have that ability. He can't
parade out. He's got a bunch of attorneys in
suits. That's just not. That's not going to scare
the public. What scares the public is the possibility
that a SWAT team might be needed. Not so much
that they're scared, but that something might
happen that's so bad that the only people that
can protect them are these highly trained officers.
And it's that politics of fear, that almost industrialization
of fear that I find. I don't know. It's destructive,
I think, in a number of levels. You know, because
it feeds off of people's fear to promote their
support of these agencies. You know, it's like
people are afraid of their houses burning down,
so they have fire departments. You know, they
don't... We don't do these things and promote
them for the right reasons and fund them for
the right reasons. We fund them because we're
scared. We fund them because, you know, and the
scarier it is, the more we fund them. You know,
it's like the war against drugs, really. They
started a war to, you know, politically back
when Nancy Reagan, you know, first started that,
to scare people. to give money and funding and
support to law enforcement to, you know, fight
the war against drugs. And, you know, just like
the DA on that day, he wished he had a SWAT team
he could parade out to scare the public into,
you know, around budget time, supporting his
department. you know, by providing more money
or, you know, more funding. And that, I think
that's at the core of so many messages we hear
from public safety. And I don't, I don't know
that there's anything that can be done about
that because it is really the most effective
way to, you know, kind of get the population
to support something and that's to, you know,
scare the dickens out of them. well flipping
it on its head because i agree i mean exactly
what you're talking about the the fact that that's
used as leverage to get people scared. This is
your brain on drugs, all these other campaigns
that we've seen. It works. We've seen that most
recently with the extremes on either side and
the kind of messaging they've got, whether if
you don't have a vaccine, then you're all going
to die and your kids are murdering grandmother
if they don't have it. Or the other way, everyone
that comes from another country is a rapist and
a murderer. And we get that extremist rhetoric
all the time. You mentioned the war on drugs.
I mean, the irony is we know. that that's an
epic failure. I mean, this is an 80 -year longitudinal
study that has created cartels and the Crips
and the Bloods and all these other things that
are empowered by addicts being forced into the
underworld. And when you look in certain countries
around the world, they say, you know what, this
isn't working. We're going to do it differently
than America. And Portugal is a good example.
They reversed their addiction crisis in eight
years. I had the guy, João Goulal, who spearheaded
that, the physician in Portugal. Because what
they did is like, well, we're not arresting our
way out of this. It's just not working. So why
don't we take the people who are addicts that
haven't robbed houses, stolen cars, all the other
things that are also a crime and they have to
pay for that. But if addiction is their crime,
being caught with a user's amount of a substance.
We're going to funnel them into addiction counseling,
job creation, mental health counseling, housing,
get them on their feet, get them sober, and then
get them back to work. And it does. And that's
not everyone. There are still addicts in Portugal
that use medical facilities to get their drugs
so they're not dying in gutters in the streets.
But everyone else, they got back on their feet.
And you want to cut the head off the snake of
gangs and cartels, take away their customer.
And I know it's not. Just flick a switch and
it will happen. But we know that chasing bad
guys doesn't work. The number of people I had
on the show, the moment we arrest someone on
a street corner, another one pops up. It's whack
-a -mole. It's not fixing the problem. So I think
this is just it. We've got to get away from what
everyone's told us is the solution because it
doesn't work and we know it doesn't work. We
have 100 ,000 Americans dying of opioids every
year. If the war on drugs worked, Purdue Pharma
never would be able to put OxyContin through
the FDA in the first place. But they did. And
here we are. So I think that looking at the way
we've done it is the perfect opportunity to go,
OK, we need something else. And presenting SWAT
teams, even though there's a necessity, when
people say, well, why do our police look like
they're going to war? It's because we've created
war on the streets. Exactly. I mean, there's
no better example than what you went through.
with a member of the Crips. But that doesn't
have to be the case. And I think what people
have got to take a step back and ask is that,
well, why doesn't that happen on the streets
of Oslo or Lisbon or Osaka? They don't have this
level of violence and addiction and crime and
homelessness that we have. So why are we not
going to those countries and saying, what are
you doing? We need to start copying some of the
things that you do. I agree. And that, but that's,
it's the simplest way, I think, for politicians
to, you know, get support for their, you know,
the things they want support for is that, like
I said, it's almost like the industrialization
of fear. And if... It would probably be easier
to get rid of if it wasn't so effective. You
know, it's, you know, you, and there's no denying
that there's a core of truth that runs through
so many of the things that we're afraid of, you
know, that from unhoused people to immigrants
to, you know, gang members, you know, that those
are all problems, but they never have problematic,
you know, aspects to them. it just, it's like
an easy way to get support for something is to,
you know, tell people that they should be afraid
of something and then set yourself up as the
solution to that fear. And I don't know. That's
like I said, it's, I, I'm, I'm, have the you
know the wherewithal or the you know the i don't
think there is a magic wand for any of this you
know i think any solutions that there might be
or they're going to have to be realized in the
long term uh i i really like the idea of focusing
more on like the individual you know individual
people You know, I'd like the, you know, I don't
know anything about the, I went to a struggle
well class brought by Boulder Crest a couple
of weeks ago. And the fire chief for, who was
sponsoring the class. You know, obviously, he's
in charge of the agency. He's an administrator.
And he internalized the training from that class,
which is, you know, the concept of post -traumatic
growth. And the first hour or the first day of
our class, he got up in front of the class and
bared his soul to everyone in there, including
the... people that were his employees and showed
incredible vulnerability and, you know, emotional
intelligence. And I don't, I don't know if I
don't know anything else. I do know that that
looked a lot like healthy leadership to me. Uh,
you know, if there were more people like that
in, you know, all aspects of our life not just
in public service i think we'd be a lot better
off and that's one of the reasons i i have so
much respect for that program is that within
that i see a solution you know and maybe in a
broader sense but i think it would have to be
scaled up to a much greater degree than it is
you know at present but that paradoxically i
think You know, our weaknesses are potentially
our greatest strengths and as our vulnerabilities
are our greatest strength. Because I saw after
the chief spoke, I saw a room full of people,
you know, you know, over the course of that week
and leaving that class that any public agency
would be proud, you know, serving their citizens.
And, you know, for whatever else it accomplished,
for me, that's a lesson, you know, that I think
we could all learn a lot from. Yeah, I agree
100%. I've heard a lot of great things about
struggle. Well, a lot of people on here have
been through it. And post -traumatic growth is
exactly it. And, you know, you listen to people
talking about the ACEs, the Adverse Childhood
Experience score. And on average, we're supposed
to be 6 out of 10, and incarcerated persons are
supposed to be 6 out of 10. So if we can have
post -traumatic growth and ultimately become
police officers and firefighters and soldiers,
especially if we do the work, and now our early
life that sent us into uniform becomes an asset,
becomes resilience, becomes even more empathy,
then why is the person who found themselves the
wrong side of the law not? able to do the same
thing so whether it's someone who's struggling
in uniform whether it's someone who's struggling
in you know behind bars at the moment if we believe
that most of us can grow from this and therefore
be stronger and you know how many people have
we seen that were former gang members they're
out in their own community now being the voice
of change being the voice of you know mentorship
for these young people so they don't go down
that path so i think this is exactly the post
-traumatic growth model needs to be not just
in first responder and military conversations,
but for all of SAI. Oh, you know, I can't remember
the exact statistic, but the lowest level of
recidivism from state prison in California comes
from lifers that are released. You know, so arguably
they've, you know, committed the worst crimes.
receive the worst punishments, and yet they commit
crimes at a much lower rate when they're released.
It also reminds me of that story in the Struggle
Well book by Captain Charlie Plummer, who tells
that the lowest level of post -traumatic stress
in members of the military are former prisoners
of war. which is, you know, on its face, you
know, counterintuitive. You would think those
who had the worst experience would have the greatest
stress. But in fact, their experiences lead them
to much greater happiness and stability in their
lives once they're, you know, released from,
you know, their imprisonment. So I think there's
also a lesson for you know, civilian prisoners
in that same model. But, you know, we're too
busy, you know, being angry at them and hating
them perpetually because they're evil and they've
done all these terrible things. As if, you know,
virtually every other person that's not in prison
hasn't made some mistake that they, you know,
could have been arrested or jailed for sometime
in their life. Absolutely. Let he who is without
sin cast the first stone, as they say. All right.
Well, I want to be mindful of your time. I'm
sure your dog probably needs to pee as well.
And I've got to get on with some stuff over here,
too. So if people listening want to learn more
about you or want to reach out to you, where
are the best places online to do that? Oh, I
guess my email is, you know, I don't mind being
contacted. Okay. I can put your email on the
show notes so you don't have to relay it on here.
So, um, brilliant. Well, Tom, I want to thank
you so much. It's been, I mean, just such an
incredible conversation and watching the documentary
right before we sat down, you know, the emotions
were still powerful in my mind as well, but to
go through such a story career, as far as, you
know, the MTE paramedic and then law enforcement
to have that first, you know, shooting that you
encountered and then the diligence of your training
and then leading to. you know, what happened
with Jason and then, you know, the incredible
forgiveness story that came from that. It's been
absolutely amazing. So I want to thank you so,
so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
That's my pleasure, James. Thank you for having
me.