WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.760 Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As 00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:03.560 always, my name is James Geering, and this week 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:05.740 it is my absolute honor to welcome back onto 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:10.480 the show marine veteran, adaptive athlete, and 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:15.500 author of Put Your Legs On, Rob Jones. Now, in 00:00:15.500 --> 00:00:18.000 this second conversation, we discuss a host of 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:20.800 topics from his experience through the pandemic, 00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:25.519 climbing one world trade, competing in the Paralympics, 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:30.519 farming, fatherhood. leadership, and so much 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:33.880 more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:37.020 as I say every week, please just take a moment. 00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:40.600 Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:44.420 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:00:45.390 --> 00:00:48.390 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:00:48.390 --> 00:00:51.270 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:00:51.270 --> 00:00:55.289 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:00:55.289 --> 00:01:00.369 over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return 00:01:00.369 --> 00:01:03.750 is that you help share these incredible men and 00:01:03.750 --> 00:01:07.189 women's stories so I can get them to every single 00:01:07.189 --> 00:01:10.170 person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. 00:01:10.829 --> 00:01:14.090 So with that being said... I welcome back onto 00:01:14.090 --> 00:01:38.349 the show Rob Jones. Enjoy. Well, Rob, I want 00:01:38.349 --> 00:01:41.680 to start by saying. welcome back the first time 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:45.239 we sat down was episode 67 which was january 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:49.519 2018 so eight years ago now it's crazy wow yeah 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.019 it's incredible now we've seen each other at 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:54.480 world trade which we'll get to uh recently echelon 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:59.659 front um but uh i want to start talking about 00:01:59.659 --> 00:02:02.739 um your experience during the pandemic and the 00:02:02.739 --> 00:02:06.409 reason i say that With this whole conversation, 00:02:06.689 --> 00:02:10.909 wherever people stood in the very kind of polarizing 00:02:10.909 --> 00:02:13.349 conversations that were going on there, as we 00:02:13.349 --> 00:02:15.870 emerged out the back end, there were some incredibly 00:02:15.870 --> 00:02:19.110 important lessons that were disregarded that 00:02:19.110 --> 00:02:22.150 I think it's irresponsible not to revisit. And 00:02:22.150 --> 00:02:24.210 I'm talking about the health of the nation, et 00:02:24.210 --> 00:02:27.569 cetera, et cetera. So you were on a farm by that 00:02:27.569 --> 00:02:30.550 point. So what was your unique pandemic experience? 00:02:32.689 --> 00:02:36.449 My unique pandemic experience started, I was 00:02:36.449 --> 00:02:38.530 actually running for Congress or I wasn't even 00:02:38.530 --> 00:02:42.449 running for Congress yet. I was running for the 00:02:42.449 --> 00:02:46.750 Republican nomination to run for Congress in 00:02:46.750 --> 00:02:52.189 my district. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot 00:02:52.189 --> 00:02:53.949 that you can go into about that. It's probably 00:02:53.949 --> 00:02:57.830 a whole podcast, but ultimately I didn't win 00:02:57.830 --> 00:03:02.300 that race. And I was, even though I was. I'm 00:03:02.300 --> 00:03:04.719 glad that I made the attempt because I think 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.259 that if you want to see change in these in the 00:03:08.259 --> 00:03:09.719 government, especially you got to be willing 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:12.340 to put yourself out there as a person that can 00:03:12.340 --> 00:03:16.759 try and create that change. So I'm glad I tried. 00:03:16.780 --> 00:03:19.259 But at the same time, I'm also glad I didn't 00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:23.680 win because the whole time I did it, I felt very, 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.280 very, very out of place doing that. Just didn't 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.199 feel. Like something I would want to do. And 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:32.199 I think that what I do at Ashland Front now is 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:34.840 infinitely more impactful than anything I could 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:38.340 have done as a part of that crazy body of individuals. 00:03:39.099 --> 00:03:42.319 So that's kind of how it started. And then also 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:47.180 my unique story of the pandemic was my son had 00:03:47.180 --> 00:03:52.680 been born February of 2020. So, you know, there's 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:54.539 a lot of things that it affected with that, you 00:03:54.539 --> 00:03:59.000 know, the inability to. uh rely upon basically 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:01.759 rely upon other people rely upon your you know 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:04.680 your village of people to to help you with you 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:06.580 know having a new baby so that that affected 00:04:06.580 --> 00:04:12.500 things and then um what else i do during the 00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:16.660 pandemic um well when i lost the race in congress 00:04:16.660 --> 00:04:22.879 and kind of went like um i that's when i started 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.079 writing this memoir i'm sure We're going to talk 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:26.620 about, that's when I started writing in earnest 00:04:26.620 --> 00:04:28.360 on the memoir. I had already done some pages, 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:29.939 but that's when I started writing, you know, 00:04:29.939 --> 00:04:33.160 every single day, making sure I wrote a thousand 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:35.060 words or a couple of pages or whatever I could 00:04:35.060 --> 00:04:37.279 muster that day. That's when I started writing 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:42.860 that. And that's also when I started trying to 00:04:42.860 --> 00:04:44.800 get back into motivational speaking a little 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:47.620 bit. And obviously the pandemic really affected 00:04:47.620 --> 00:04:51.199 that heavily. I think I did one virtual event 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:57.430 in all of 2021. So that was that was something 00:04:57.430 --> 00:04:59.670 I was doing. And by getting back into virtual 00:04:59.670 --> 00:05:02.850 or motivational speaking kind of led me to the 00:05:02.850 --> 00:05:07.769 Echelon Front pathway in the end. But, yeah, 00:05:07.930 --> 00:05:13.350 I mean, and being on a farm really was a positive 00:05:13.350 --> 00:05:15.310 for us because we were able to we didn't have 00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:18.430 to worry about food. We had all the food we could 00:05:18.430 --> 00:05:20.350 all the good, healthy food that we could have. 00:05:21.550 --> 00:05:23.269 But yeah, there's a lot of stuff, but those are 00:05:23.269 --> 00:05:27.490 kind of the highlights, I would say. It's something 00:05:27.490 --> 00:05:31.750 that seems to be evident of an area that needs 00:05:31.750 --> 00:05:35.449 to be changed, that someone who would be a good 00:05:35.449 --> 00:05:37.310 leader that we know, and I've had this conversation 00:05:37.310 --> 00:05:40.870 with so many of my friends, when they get into 00:05:40.870 --> 00:05:44.550 this world, they're turned off by it or they're 00:05:44.550 --> 00:05:48.490 not successful. And if we go to the macro level, 00:05:48.569 --> 00:05:50.189 if we're talking about the presidential campaign, 00:05:50.810 --> 00:05:52.910 I've always said the problem that we have at 00:05:52.910 --> 00:05:55.769 the moment is not everyone can compete in that 00:05:55.769 --> 00:05:59.089 game. It's a demistocracy. You've got to be incredibly 00:05:59.089 --> 00:06:02.389 wealthy, millionaire or billionaire, and arguably 00:06:02.389 --> 00:06:05.329 you've got to be devoid of ethics because you 00:06:05.329 --> 00:06:07.329 are taking money from companies that are lining 00:06:07.329 --> 00:06:09.230 your pockets that then you're going to do favors 00:06:09.230 --> 00:06:11.350 for when you get in. So not truly a democratic 00:06:11.350 --> 00:06:15.129 process. But that's not why I don't believe what 00:06:15.129 --> 00:06:18.149 the founding fathers envisioned as far as a political 00:06:18.149 --> 00:06:21.279 process. Going back down to the experience that 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:25.319 you had now, what were some of the cons of the 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.720 path that you took? Even if you lost to another 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.079 incredible leader and it was a great environment, 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:33.420 but what were the things that you didn't like? 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:35.800 And if you were king for a day, what would we 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:39.139 change so that we would allow all of the right 00:06:39.139 --> 00:06:41.639 kind of people to actually succeed in these political 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:46.500 spaces? Yeah, obviously that's a big question. 00:06:48.170 --> 00:06:51.029 For my own experience, what I didn't like about 00:06:51.029 --> 00:06:54.769 it was, especially the primary process, tends 00:06:54.769 --> 00:06:57.050 to pre -select for people that are a little bit 00:06:57.050 --> 00:07:00.810 more on the extreme of the other side. So when 00:07:00.810 --> 00:07:04.149 you're running a primary in a government, for 00:07:04.149 --> 00:07:08.350 federal office, you have to be able to win the 00:07:08.350 --> 00:07:09.750 primary. And the way that you win the primary 00:07:09.750 --> 00:07:16.300 is by winning over the people that are... that 00:07:16.300 --> 00:07:17.639 are going to vote in the primary. And the people 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:18.819 that are going to vote in the primary are the 00:07:18.819 --> 00:07:22.300 ones that are 100 % hardcore for that political 00:07:22.300 --> 00:07:25.439 party. They're either hardcore Republican or 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:28.139 they're hardcore Democrat. And they want to hear 00:07:28.139 --> 00:07:34.399 the more hardcore talking points of that platform, 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.060 of the general platform. And so in order to do 00:07:38.060 --> 00:07:40.120 that, you spend a lot of time talking to people 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.750 that are hardcore on that side. And so for me, 00:07:43.750 --> 00:07:46.029 it was really hard because I'm not really – I 00:07:46.029 --> 00:07:47.870 wouldn't say I'm a hardcore person on either 00:07:47.870 --> 00:07:52.089 side. I think back then I probably identified 00:07:52.089 --> 00:07:55.410 more with the Republican Party, and that's why 00:07:55.410 --> 00:07:57.709 I picked that as a party to run with. I probably 00:07:57.709 --> 00:08:00.129 identified with more of their beliefs. But that 00:08:00.129 --> 00:08:02.629 didn't mean that I was in line with everything 00:08:02.629 --> 00:08:05.269 that they were saying or everything that anybody 00:08:05.269 --> 00:08:11.079 says really. So I found myself – in this kind 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:14.740 of a tough position of trying to win the primary 00:08:14.740 --> 00:08:17.279 and there's a certain thing you have to do in 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:19.759 order to do to win the primary but at the same 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:24.220 time also trying to balance that with why i ran 00:08:24.220 --> 00:08:26.560 in the first place which was to just be to show 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:29.180 people that a good person can be in congress 00:08:29.180 --> 00:08:31.560 and not get corrupted and can make the right 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:33.940 decisions on behalf of everybody instead of themselves 00:08:33.940 --> 00:08:37.179 and so there was this this balance and there 00:08:37.179 --> 00:08:39.139 was a battle going kind of going on between me 00:08:39.139 --> 00:08:41.690 and my the people that were helping me run the 00:08:41.690 --> 00:08:44.750 campaign. So they had the kind of a formula that 00:08:44.750 --> 00:08:47.649 they would always plug things into. And the general 00:08:47.649 --> 00:08:50.950 formula when you're running a campaign is, you 00:08:50.950 --> 00:08:54.409 know, you tweet a picture of the other person, 00:08:54.429 --> 00:08:58.029 like mid sentence, like, so they look stupid. 00:08:58.029 --> 00:08:59.490 You know what I mean? It's like every single 00:08:59.490 --> 00:09:03.090 one, just like that. So they look mean and it's 00:09:03.090 --> 00:09:04.889 black and white and it's red. You know what I 00:09:04.889 --> 00:09:07.190 mean? It's like the same thing. And so that's 00:09:07.190 --> 00:09:08.769 kind of there. So they would be tweeting out 00:09:08.769 --> 00:09:11.210 all that stuff. And that's not who I wanted to 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:17.509 be. But it was a real struggle to balance letting 00:09:17.509 --> 00:09:19.909 them put stuff out without having to check everything 00:09:19.909 --> 00:09:22.590 with me first, but also make sure the stuff that 00:09:22.590 --> 00:09:25.750 they were putting out reflected me as why I was 00:09:25.750 --> 00:09:28.389 running in the first place, which was to unify 00:09:28.389 --> 00:09:31.669 as opposed to divide. And so I think the one 00:09:31.669 --> 00:09:33.409 thing that worked the best was I said, hey, if 00:09:33.409 --> 00:09:35.870 the picture that you're putting up or the post 00:09:35.870 --> 00:09:40.399 that you're putting up is designed to cause any 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.720 kind of emotion like anger, sadness, fear, anything 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:47.320 like that, don't post it. So only post things 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:50.320 that are going to make people feel good or unified 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.399 or these kinds of things. Have an open mind. 00:09:52.820 --> 00:09:55.899 And that's a really hard way to run a campaign 00:09:55.899 --> 00:10:02.360 in a primary. So I think if I were to go back 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:03.779 and do it again, I probably would have tried 00:10:03.779 --> 00:10:05.559 just to run as an independent and just be like, 00:10:06.509 --> 00:10:09.470 And offer myself up as an option, do the best 00:10:09.470 --> 00:10:12.330 I could and say, this is me, this is what I'm 00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:16.029 trying to do, and just be more pure to myself 00:10:16.029 --> 00:10:19.190 and just say, this is what I think. I kind of 00:10:19.190 --> 00:10:21.009 felt like I was having to hide some of the things 00:10:21.009 --> 00:10:25.289 that I thought, or maybe not that I had to. I 00:10:25.289 --> 00:10:27.610 didn't have to. I could have done the same thing 00:10:27.610 --> 00:10:30.649 as a Republican nominee, but I felt back then 00:10:30.649 --> 00:10:32.669 I had convinced myself that I kind of had to 00:10:32.669 --> 00:10:36.029 up. to hide a little bit of what i believed so 00:10:36.029 --> 00:10:38.669 that i would so i would win and so that's it 00:10:38.669 --> 00:10:41.649 that was not the way to that i wanted to to do 00:10:41.649 --> 00:10:43.809 it and so i would advise any you know myself 00:10:43.809 --> 00:10:47.409 back then just to run as a yeah you know run 00:10:47.409 --> 00:10:49.950 as a republican again but just don't just share 00:10:49.950 --> 00:10:52.149 what you believe and just let the the cards fall 00:10:52.149 --> 00:10:55.289 as they would as they may uh so that was my personal 00:10:55.289 --> 00:10:57.549 experience and if i was king for a day what i 00:10:57.549 --> 00:11:03.740 would do is i would I would try and convince 00:11:03.740 --> 00:11:07.559 people – I would convince more people to be involved 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.980 in the primary process because there's tons of 00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:14.019 what you would call just regular people that 00:11:14.019 --> 00:11:16.720 don't necessarily fall on either side of the 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:19.299 aisle in a hardcore way that could potentially 00:11:19.299 --> 00:11:24.240 go and vote in primaries across the country. 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:26.460 But they don't because they just – they don't 00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:30.960 want to go and – and put their lot for, they 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:32.700 just don't care enough in the primary process. 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:35.340 So that's what I would try and do. I would just 00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:38.179 try and say, hey, everybody, if you want a normal 00:11:38.179 --> 00:11:41.419 person to be running for a position in the government, 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:43.980 then normal people have to go and vote. People 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:46.740 that aren't extreme have to go and vote. And 00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:48.399 so that's what I would try and do. I would try 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.519 and convince more people that are kind of like 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:53.220 you and me, balanced on either side and just 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:55.950 have an open mind. I would try and convince those 00:11:55.950 --> 00:11:57.990 people to go and vote in primaries so that we 00:11:57.990 --> 00:12:00.889 could select people that would get to a position 00:12:00.889 --> 00:12:04.649 where they're the candidate. The power is with 00:12:04.649 --> 00:12:07.389 us. The power is with the individuals that are 00:12:07.389 --> 00:12:10.769 voting. It's just not enough of them really do 00:12:10.769 --> 00:12:13.509 it, and we need more people that are willing 00:12:13.509 --> 00:12:17.019 to look outside of just these two options. I've 00:12:17.019 --> 00:12:20.179 always said that a leader unites and a tyrant 00:12:20.179 --> 00:12:24.179 divides. And yet it's the tyranny side that seems 00:12:24.179 --> 00:12:27.159 to be the political strategy these days. And 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:31.519 it's sad because if you think about it, 330 million 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:36.059 people in this country say, I'm a Republican, 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:38.419 you're a Democrat or whatever, insert two different 00:12:38.419 --> 00:12:41.080 parties here. And we run against each other for 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:45.669 the presidency and you win. Everyone that was 00:12:45.669 --> 00:12:48.190 voting for me really should be like, well, it's 00:12:48.190 --> 00:12:50.990 a shame because we like James is just a little 00:12:50.990 --> 00:12:53.710 bit more. But Rob's a good human, too. And he's 00:12:53.710 --> 00:12:56.690 not too far from us. So we're happy either way. 00:12:57.409 --> 00:12:59.090 That's that's in theory. That's what we should 00:12:59.090 --> 00:13:01.269 have. But we have the complete opposite where 00:13:01.269 --> 00:13:03.970 it's like World War One. And if, you know, your 00:13:03.970 --> 00:13:06.830 side didn't win, then, you know, it was rigged 00:13:06.830 --> 00:13:08.990 and you go break into government buildings or, 00:13:09.029 --> 00:13:10.629 you know, whatever the thing is, rather than 00:13:10.629 --> 00:13:12.529 going, OK, well, there's two great people, three 00:13:12.529 --> 00:13:15.580 great people running. Whoever wins, at least 00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:17.080 we're going to have a great leader at the helm 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:19.860 of our country. And I think it's completely backwards 00:13:19.860 --> 00:13:23.600 at the moment. Yeah, you know, I haven't really 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.700 thought about this tons. I'd really have to sit 00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:28.899 down and think about it and write some stuff 00:13:28.899 --> 00:13:31.440 out and kind of flesh out some ideas on this. 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:34.720 But I do think that there's a large component 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:38.659 of why that is, is because the divisive language, 00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:47.549 I think it does tend to... It tends to feed our 00:13:47.549 --> 00:13:50.710 natural tendency as humans to want to exclude, 00:13:51.090 --> 00:13:55.850 to kind of, I guess, exclude other people or 00:13:55.850 --> 00:13:59.470 be certain about things. There's some primal 00:13:59.470 --> 00:14:02.649 instincts that what they're doing feeds. And 00:14:02.649 --> 00:14:04.950 the people that are involved in doing the most 00:14:04.950 --> 00:14:07.009 of the voting, the primaries and that kind of 00:14:07.009 --> 00:14:08.570 stuff, those people are probably a little bit 00:14:08.570 --> 00:14:13.320 more susceptible to those primal instincts. So 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.500 when you have a certain candidate say exactly 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:18.639 what that person wants to hear, it kind of snowball 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:20.320 effect. It amplifies what they're thinking and 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:23.399 they just – they're drawn to that person. Whereas 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:26.419 another person that doesn't get involved in primaries 00:14:26.419 --> 00:14:32.779 and isn't as susceptible to those primal instincts, 00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:37.919 it doesn't affect them as much. So that's – I 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.730 kind of think that's – part of a big part of 00:14:40.730 --> 00:14:42.970 the reason and there's other stuff associated 00:14:42.970 --> 00:14:45.450 with it too but i think if i had to think about 00:14:45.450 --> 00:14:48.370 it from you know just my perspective as a as 00:14:48.370 --> 00:14:51.570 a regular voter at this point that's i think 00:14:51.570 --> 00:14:53.990 that's what i see i think i see people have natural 00:14:53.990 --> 00:14:59.470 tendencies um that cause them to uh you know 00:14:59.470 --> 00:15:02.629 want to feel angry want to be divisive and want 00:15:02.629 --> 00:15:05.769 all these things And want to have certainty about 00:15:05.769 --> 00:15:08.570 stuff in situations where there isn't any certainty. 00:15:08.730 --> 00:15:11.850 People will kind of seek that stuff out. And 00:15:11.850 --> 00:15:14.450 we're not detaching from that. And we're just 00:15:14.450 --> 00:15:18.169 following that. And that's how certain people 00:15:18.169 --> 00:15:21.789 get selected. So there's a big component of that 00:15:21.789 --> 00:15:27.470 there. And obviously, I don't know exactly what 00:15:27.470 --> 00:15:28.830 everything that's going on. It's a very, very 00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:32.029 complex situation. But I do think that there's 00:15:32.029 --> 00:15:35.169 something there. about natural human tendencies 00:15:35.169 --> 00:15:38.370 that are feeding this little situation that we 00:15:38.370 --> 00:15:42.789 have. It's interesting because it's the tribalism 00:15:42.789 --> 00:15:46.250 that can be positive or negative, as people say. 00:15:46.490 --> 00:15:51.690 Yeah, your tribe is the best. The other tribe 00:15:51.690 --> 00:15:58.090 is evil. That's the primal instinct. and then 00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:00.389 also the certainty aspect of it too i think is 00:16:00.389 --> 00:16:02.289 people don't like living in uncertainty we don't 00:16:02.289 --> 00:16:04.029 like being i don't like being uncertain about 00:16:04.029 --> 00:16:06.450 something and if i if there's something that's 00:16:06.450 --> 00:16:09.269 happening and i can't figure out i can't figure 00:16:09.269 --> 00:16:11.450 out of my mind what is the dis what is the what 00:16:11.450 --> 00:16:14.190 do i think about that and you just have to live 00:16:14.190 --> 00:16:16.149 in that kind of uncertain place that's not a 00:16:16.149 --> 00:16:18.549 good place to live so even though you don't have 00:16:18.549 --> 00:16:21.490 all the evidence you just kind of graft onto 00:16:22.580 --> 00:16:24.740 something that feels like it should be right. 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:26.799 And then when you do that, you grabbed onto it, 00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:28.399 your mind closes and you don't consider anything 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.379 else because you, you're just clinging onto that 00:16:30.379 --> 00:16:33.100 certainty. And we have to be able to let go of 00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:35.159 those two things, let go of this, the need for 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.779 certainty and be happy with a little bit of uncertainty 00:16:37.779 --> 00:16:40.899 in our lives. And also recognize that the tribe 00:16:40.899 --> 00:16:43.320 that we're a part of is the entire country. That's, 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:48.759 that's the tribe. I mean, humanity is our tribe. 00:16:48.820 --> 00:16:51.840 So we just have to. We have to recognize that. 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.600 But those are very powerful primal instincts. 00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:59.500 And it's really hard if you're not thinking about 00:16:59.500 --> 00:17:04.240 it just to give in to it. Yeah. One of my guests 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:08.500 a few weeks ago said, I think he was quoting 00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:11.119 someone else, but it was, you've got two types 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.940 of people. You've got civilians and you've got 00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:18.440 citizens. Oh, is that a Starship Troopers thing? 00:17:19.059 --> 00:17:21.680 It might be. I don't know. I'm not sure where 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:23.960 it's from, but it's a great concept because a 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.220 civilian just lives in the country. And like 00:17:27.220 --> 00:17:29.119 you said, that's probably the kind of person 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:31.059 that then is looking for guidance and then grabbing 00:17:31.059 --> 00:17:36.779 onto one side or the other. A citizen is investing 00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:38.839 into their country and they're a first responder 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:40.960 or a military member or a teacher or a nurse 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.000 or just a good person in their community. And 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.920 I think that's a really good question to look 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:48.680 in the mirror and ask yourself. Am I a citizen 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.400 or am I a civilian? Am I just paying my taxes 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.240 and using the assets of this country and not 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.539 really putting much in? Or am I trying to go 00:17:58.539 --> 00:18:00.299 above and beyond because I care enough about 00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:02.880 my community and my country? And yeah, I'll even 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:04.960 have the hard conversations when things that 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:06.700 are happening around me are wrong as well. My 00:18:06.700 --> 00:18:09.019 moral compass, my moral courage. But I thought 00:18:09.019 --> 00:18:10.420 that was a really interesting way of looking 00:18:10.420 --> 00:18:13.079 at it. The danger is that we all become simply 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:16.799 civilians. And then we get told what to do. And 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.079 that's kind of, you know, nationalism over patriotism. 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.799 Then a patriot is someone who actually invests 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:23.660 in their country rather than just mindlessly 00:18:23.660 --> 00:18:26.720 follows a tribe. Yeah, well, you got to you got 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.460 to be involved. You got to take ownership of. 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:34.400 Of the things that are that affect your life, 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.539 your mission, and if you give that if you give 00:18:36.539 --> 00:18:38.059 a if you give it up, if you're not going to go 00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:41.539 and vote or research the candidate that you like 00:18:41.539 --> 00:18:44.329 or do all these different things, then. yeah, 00:18:44.369 --> 00:18:45.589 you're going to be getting let around. You're 00:18:45.589 --> 00:18:47.549 going to have some stuff. Other people are going 00:18:47.549 --> 00:18:48.910 to go ahead and do that. And then you're going 00:18:48.910 --> 00:18:53.289 to lose control. So if you, if you want to see 00:18:53.289 --> 00:18:56.130 your country or your community be what you want 00:18:56.130 --> 00:18:57.410 it to be, you have to be involved. You have to 00:18:57.410 --> 00:18:59.309 take ownership of making that happen. But yeah, 00:18:59.329 --> 00:19:02.769 I think that I remember that, that quote reminds 00:19:02.769 --> 00:19:05.269 me of this, that scene in the Starship Troopers 00:19:05.269 --> 00:19:07.710 movie where they're all, it's in the very beginning 00:19:07.710 --> 00:19:09.549 and they're talking, I think that the teachers 00:19:09.549 --> 00:19:11.829 in the front. And he goes, what's the difference 00:19:11.829 --> 00:19:15.269 between a citizen and a civilian? And then the 00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:18.029 main character says basically what you said, 00:19:18.089 --> 00:19:20.609 I think. So I wonder if that came from the book, 00:19:20.730 --> 00:19:23.869 Starship Troopers. Yeah, it could be. It could 00:19:23.869 --> 00:19:29.130 be. Good, I like it. Yeah, yeah. All right, we'll 00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:31.990 go into the farming for a second. So what made 00:19:31.990 --> 00:19:34.250 you even decide to get the farm in the first 00:19:34.250 --> 00:19:38.569 place? Knowing I grew up on a farm myself, so 00:19:38.569 --> 00:19:41.269 knowing how challenging farms can be with two 00:19:41.269 --> 00:19:44.450 biological legs still, what have been some of 00:19:44.450 --> 00:19:47.650 the challenges for you working on the farm? What 00:19:47.650 --> 00:19:50.230 kind of farm did you grow up on? So my dad was 00:19:50.230 --> 00:19:53.190 a horse vet, veterinary surgeon. So we had stables, 00:19:53.190 --> 00:19:55.950 but then we also had sheep and poultry and other 00:19:55.950 --> 00:19:57.809 things. Yeah, you're English, you've had sheep 00:19:57.809 --> 00:20:02.299 for sure. So big enough to, you know, to... Have 00:20:02.299 --> 00:20:04.140 to work the entire childhood, put it that way. 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:07.980 Yeah. Yeah, I grew up on a horse farm too, 300 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:10.660 acres. And yeah, lots of horse stall cleaning 00:20:10.660 --> 00:20:12.839 and things like that. I bet we talked about it 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.339 on the first podcast. But the way that the farm 00:20:15.339 --> 00:20:18.160 happened, I just want to be clear. My wife is 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:20.900 the farmer. She does all the farming. I help 00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:23.119 her from time to time if she needs my help. At 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:25.619 this point, she doesn't need it nearly as often 00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:27.759 as before because she's got part -time employees. 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:29.599 She's got farm employees. She's grown the business. 00:20:30.579 --> 00:20:33.759 But we own 13 acres. And the way that it came 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:39.960 about was my wife, Pam, she was a Paralympic 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.500 gold medalist, two -time Paralympic gold medalist. 00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:48.119 And while she was rowing, she recognized that 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:50.579 in order to be at her highest performance level, 00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:54.000 she had to eat good, clean food in order to be 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.960 her greatest self, her greatest rower that she 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:58.470 could possibly be. And so when she was thinking 00:20:58.470 --> 00:21:01.069 about what she wanted to do after rowing, that 00:21:01.069 --> 00:21:03.690 feeling really resonated with her that she wanted 00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:10.630 to live a life that allowed her to be her best 00:21:10.630 --> 00:21:12.509 self, which meant that she had to eat the healthiest 00:21:12.509 --> 00:21:15.589 food possible. And one of the problems with eating 00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:17.150 the healthiest food possible is when you get 00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:18.750 it from another source, it's really hard to know 00:21:18.750 --> 00:21:21.049 exactly what they're doing with it. You don't 00:21:21.049 --> 00:21:22.809 know a lot of the time because it's coming from 00:21:22.809 --> 00:21:25.529 some... unknown person it just comes from some 00:21:25.529 --> 00:21:27.430 farm that you never met the person before and 00:21:27.430 --> 00:21:29.990 you don't know how they raise things and even 00:21:29.990 --> 00:21:33.130 they put it on the label unless it's like the 00:21:33.130 --> 00:21:36.950 term organic uh is on the label there's there's 00:21:36.950 --> 00:21:38.430 a lot of industry there's a lot of marketing 00:21:38.430 --> 00:21:41.109 terms that end up on food labels like natural 00:21:41.109 --> 00:21:45.750 or all natural or pasture raised or uh what is 00:21:45.750 --> 00:21:47.809 it cage free all this different things it doesn't 00:21:47.809 --> 00:21:50.490 necessarily mean anything and so i think what 00:21:50.490 --> 00:21:54.440 she realized was that um If she wanted to be 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.220 certain that she was getting the best food possible, 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.359 she needed to grow it herself. And so she wanted 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:01.740 to, that's what she wanted to do. And so she 00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:06.380 learned some, she went to some courses about 00:22:06.380 --> 00:22:09.960 how to raise sheep and she did some hands -on 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.059 stuff with that. And then when she moved over 00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:15.440 here to America in 2017, she got a job at a vegetable 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.299 farm near us. She learned a lot there, and eventually 00:22:19.299 --> 00:22:21.619 her and a friend that worked there together decided 00:22:21.619 --> 00:22:23.660 that they were going to start a farm on our property. 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.039 But that was kind of the motivation for us, taking 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.700 ownership of your food source. If you want to 00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:32.500 have the best food possible, you have to take 00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:34.480 ownership of it, which means you have to know 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.160 what's going into your food, how it's raised, 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:40.680 what did it get fed, all these different things. 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:42.680 You have to know that in order to really take 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.599 full ownership, extreme ownership of your food. 00:22:46.340 --> 00:22:48.680 And she decided to go ahead and do the route 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.359 where she's the one that's growing it. But not 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.220 everybody has to grow their own food. You at 00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:57.259 least have to go and find out how this stuff 00:22:57.259 --> 00:22:59.559 gets raised, how your food is getting raised, 00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:02.859 and buy the stuff that you know is – you have 00:23:02.859 --> 00:23:04.500 a relationship with the farmer. You know what 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:07.299 their terms mean, how they raise things. You 00:23:07.299 --> 00:23:08.579 know them as a person. You know that they're 00:23:08.579 --> 00:23:10.319 honest, all these different things, that you 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:13.859 can trust what they're telling you. So which 00:23:13.859 --> 00:23:18.539 animals and poultry do you have now? So Pam does 00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:22.740 vegetables. This is the primary farm component. 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.380 And then so she sells at the farmer's market, 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:29.500 and she has essentially – it's called a CSA, 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:32.119 but it's essentially a weekly subscription for 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:34.460 people. They have a little farm shop at the end 00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:37.279 of our driveway. And then animal side, they have 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:41.599 egg -laying hens. And then every year she does 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:47.380 – between 60 and 100 meat chickens. And then 00:23:47.380 --> 00:23:49.660 we have a bunch of lamb. She raises lamb and 00:23:49.660 --> 00:23:52.240 slaughters lamb. Every now and then we'll have 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:56.240 pigs. She does turkeys from time to time. And 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.900 then we have one cow at a time that we raise. 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.039 Brilliant. So talk to me then, what did that 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.099 look like during COVID? So when everyone was 00:24:04.099 --> 00:24:06.180 scrambling for toilet paper and the abattoirs 00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:09.279 had a bottleneck from the mega farms, what were 00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:11.259 you experiencing with your family at that time? 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.819 I don't – I'm trying to remember. In COVID, I 00:24:14.819 --> 00:24:17.259 don't think that she had the meat side of it 00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:20.619 yet. I'm trying to remember. The meat side of 00:24:20.619 --> 00:24:23.180 it didn't come until later. But yeah, I mean 00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:25.180 during COVID, guess what? Farmers markets weren't 00:24:25.180 --> 00:24:28.279 running. So they had to shift. That's part of 00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:31.460 the reason why they shifted to the CSA subscription 00:24:31.460 --> 00:24:34.960 model. Or they shifted over that way even more 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:37.680 because the farmers markets weren't happening. 00:24:39.770 --> 00:24:44.789 And another way that it affected us was she has 00:24:44.789 --> 00:24:48.150 to – it's really hard to farm with a baby. And 00:24:48.150 --> 00:24:50.509 it's also really hard to – so it's really hard 00:24:50.509 --> 00:24:52.230 to farm with a baby. So that meant I spent the 00:24:52.230 --> 00:24:53.569 vast majority of my time – when I was making 00:24:53.569 --> 00:24:56.970 campaign calls, I would be – I would have Harry 00:24:56.970 --> 00:24:59.750 on my shoulder taking a nap. And I'd be making 00:24:59.750 --> 00:25:02.369 calls like, hey, you want to donate to my campaign? 00:25:02.569 --> 00:25:04.690 No, bye. Hey, you want to donate to my campaign? 00:25:04.869 --> 00:25:08.220 No, bye. I was doing that. and talking to people 00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:09.859 while holding a sleeping baby and then every 00:25:09.859 --> 00:25:11.160 now and then i go hey do you want it and he would 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:13.859 start crying i go oh yeah that's my son i'd have 00:25:13.859 --> 00:25:17.019 to get up and walk around doing the calls so 00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:21.240 it was just really hard to get uh to to form 00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:24.480 that community that that we could uh rely upon 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:27.359 to take a little bit of the the child care burden 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:31.960 uh away so that we could uh so we could you know 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:34.980 do other work you know how being a parent is 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:38.200 work but you know doing do other work um so we 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:40.480 it was it was a we had to work together as a 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.099 team in order to do that she would do her part 00:25:43.099 --> 00:25:47.259 as well um on the other days of the of the week 00:25:47.259 --> 00:25:49.819 and we would it required a lot of teamwork between 00:25:49.819 --> 00:25:52.180 the two of us to make that to make that functional 00:25:52.180 --> 00:25:54.799 but the farm yeah i mean that's that was the 00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:57.799 main effect on the farm would be you know had 00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:01.410 to Had to shift the way that the farm was selling 00:26:01.410 --> 00:26:04.950 its produce. And then childcare with working 00:26:04.950 --> 00:26:09.309 parents is always a challenge. And what about 00:26:09.309 --> 00:26:11.609 as far as the amputee side? What's been challenging 00:26:11.609 --> 00:26:15.230 when you are having to work on the farm? Yeah, 00:26:15.269 --> 00:26:16.470 you know, one of the things I had to do with 00:26:16.470 --> 00:26:19.490 the farm, with having property and being a parent 00:26:19.490 --> 00:26:23.150 and being a dad, was figure out a different leg 00:26:23.150 --> 00:26:30.670 solution. every activity that I take part in 00:26:30.670 --> 00:26:33.009 requires essentially a different, a slightly 00:26:33.009 --> 00:26:37.549 different kind of leg setup. So before I became 00:26:37.549 --> 00:26:40.509 a dad and before I moved on and had land living 00:26:40.509 --> 00:26:42.170 in apartments and stuff, I could just have my, 00:26:42.170 --> 00:26:45.329 my walking legs, my X fours, I would have liners 00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:46.670 and all this stuff that goes on them and they 00:26:46.670 --> 00:26:48.269 have knees and do all this thing, all these things. 00:26:48.789 --> 00:26:52.069 I'd have my legs for the sports that I did. And 00:26:52.069 --> 00:26:53.630 then I would just have to have what I call it 00:26:53.630 --> 00:26:56.490 house legs. which are legs that don't have a 00:26:56.490 --> 00:26:58.470 liner. They just pop on and off. And that's, 00:26:58.470 --> 00:27:01.089 I would spend a lot of my day in those because 00:27:01.089 --> 00:27:03.609 I would just be doing, if I was training for 00:27:03.609 --> 00:27:04.950 a sport, I would go out and do the train and 00:27:04.950 --> 00:27:06.750 I'd get back and I would just hang out at my 00:27:06.750 --> 00:27:08.569 house and I would take my legs off, put my house 00:27:08.569 --> 00:27:11.049 legs on and I can just walk around my house as 00:27:11.049 --> 00:27:12.630 needed. And then when I sat back down, I'd take 00:27:12.630 --> 00:27:15.049 them off. So I'd be very comfortable. But when 00:27:15.049 --> 00:27:16.470 you have, when you're a parent, you don't really 00:27:16.470 --> 00:27:21.089 sit down a lot because your, your kids are, they 00:27:21.089 --> 00:27:23.829 always need something. And also when you have 00:27:23.829 --> 00:27:25.809 property, there's a lot of stuff you have to 00:27:25.809 --> 00:27:30.210 do out on the property that having the bionic 00:27:30.210 --> 00:27:33.849 knees is just not a good, it's not, I'm not really 00:27:33.849 --> 00:27:36.170 able to do it very well. Like I can't really 00:27:36.170 --> 00:27:42.950 effectively chainsaw a log in X4s. It's not happening 00:27:42.950 --> 00:27:45.250 because of the various balance aspects of it. 00:27:45.750 --> 00:27:49.259 And just being around on really undulating. you 00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:52.059 know, really rough terrain and those legs makes 00:27:52.059 --> 00:27:54.480 it so that you, it's really hard to do. So eventually 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.880 I had to figure out, I had to get, I had to go 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:00.119 back to shorties, which is something I started 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.500 in. That's what I learned how to walk in, which 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:05.319 is just a short straight leg, but it has liners. 00:28:05.339 --> 00:28:06.759 It was what my house legs were, but it's all 00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:10.240 just, but now it has liners and stuff. So I had 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:13.279 to go back to that. I had to figure out. you 00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:15.539 know a good system to be able to go outside come 00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:18.000 back in and not bring a bunch of mud in the house 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:19.759 so you know all these different things I had 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:24.740 to craft essentially a leg setup for the way 00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:26.579 that my life was and it took me a little while 00:28:26.579 --> 00:28:32.019 to figure out what it was um and so I would get 00:28:32.019 --> 00:28:35.640 blisters a lot when I was when I was uh you know 00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:37.839 first became a dad because I would wear the house 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:39.720 legs and they're not they move around a little 00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:43.049 bit more they cause more skin irritation so But 00:28:43.049 --> 00:28:45.490 now I'm at a pretty good spot now where I have 00:28:45.490 --> 00:28:48.029 a really good leg system in place. So that was 00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:50.450 one thing from an amputee perspective. And yeah, 00:28:50.490 --> 00:28:53.329 it's just a little bit more challenging to do 00:28:53.329 --> 00:28:55.710 the things that you need to do when you have 00:28:55.710 --> 00:28:59.049 property. Not having the lower halves of your 00:28:59.049 --> 00:29:01.910 legs plays a big role in being able to do that. 00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:04.430 It's harder to drive a tractor. It's harder to 00:29:04.430 --> 00:29:09.089 drive your ATV around. It's harder to pick things 00:29:09.089 --> 00:29:10.309 up from the ground. It's all these different 00:29:10.309 --> 00:29:14.059 things. Uh, with the, all I do, what I can do, 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.039 I have the leg set up. I have, I find whatever 00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:21.220 tool I need to, to, to make me or help me be 00:29:21.220 --> 00:29:23.980 able to do. I just figure it out because the 00:29:23.980 --> 00:29:26.160 fact of the matter is I want to do it and I need 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:29.160 to be able to do it to support my wife and do 00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:30.720 all these things. I have to figure out a way 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:34.279 to make it happen. So yes, does it affect me? 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.519 It makes things harder, but if there's something 00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:38.440 I need to do, I'm going to do it. So it's not 00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:40.960 the same in that way. Yeah, well, you just because 00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:43.359 normally when we're thinking about adaptive athletes, 00:29:43.500 --> 00:29:45.440 you know, we are looking at a track or like you 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.259 said, rowing or, you know, even even footage 00:29:48.259 --> 00:29:51.000 of your marathons, you know, it's still on asphalt. 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:54.079 But the thought of, you know, chainsawing and 00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:56.460 mucking out stables and pushing a wheelbarrow 00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:58.180 and all these things, it's a completely different 00:29:58.180 --> 00:30:00.240 way. And it's not something that really gets 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:02.259 talked about. What does the rest of life look 00:30:02.259 --> 00:30:05.339 like? for an amputee because we see you know 00:30:05.339 --> 00:30:07.480 the sporting highlights and the gym videos and 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:10.259 stuff but we don't see yeah i gotta go pick cabbages 00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:13.440 today what does that look like yeah i mean it's 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:15.759 it's a different thing to look at but the it's 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.609 still it's essentially the same philosophy If 00:30:18.609 --> 00:30:20.990 I want to go out and row, then well, yeah, I 00:30:20.990 --> 00:30:22.750 mean, I got to figure out a way to get my boat 00:30:22.750 --> 00:30:24.269 down to the dock. I got to figure out how to 00:30:24.269 --> 00:30:25.589 get into the boat. I got to figure out what my 00:30:25.589 --> 00:30:28.369 legs set up for the thing is. If I want to go 00:30:28.369 --> 00:30:30.250 run, well, hey, I got to figure out a good place 00:30:30.250 --> 00:30:31.710 for me to run. I got to figure out what legs 00:30:31.710 --> 00:30:35.069 work for me to run. Same thing with a bike. Got 00:30:35.069 --> 00:30:36.430 to figure out what legs I got to run with the 00:30:36.430 --> 00:30:38.390 bike. How do I do it? Got to learn how to do 00:30:38.390 --> 00:30:39.930 it. Got to figure it out. But in the end, it's 00:30:39.930 --> 00:30:42.490 I want to do those things. So I figure out how 00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:46.150 to make it happen. And so it's really, it's less 00:30:46.150 --> 00:30:53.740 glorious to... to talk about how I carry my kids 00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:57.500 around when we're out at a restaurant. But it's 00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:00.200 basically the same exact thing, same exact philosophy 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.539 anyway. When you said shorties, it reminded me, 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.900 you and I met, I think it was 2001, I think it 00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:09.759 was, when One World Trade was first opened and 00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:13.599 we did the Steven Siller climb. It wasn't 2001, 00:31:13.779 --> 00:31:16.400 it was... It's not 2001, 2021 is what I meant 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:21.150 to say. 2021. Yeah. Yeah. And it was funny because 00:31:21.150 --> 00:31:23.430 I brought all my fire gear over. I was getting 00:31:23.430 --> 00:31:26.289 ready to borrow a set of an air pack from an 00:31:26.289 --> 00:31:29.569 FDM way firefighter friend. Not allowed. And 00:31:29.569 --> 00:31:31.589 they were like, yeah, no, you can't take any 00:31:31.589 --> 00:31:33.509 of that stuff because of security. So I ended 00:31:33.509 --> 00:31:36.970 up doing it in shorts and t -shirt and you had 00:31:36.970 --> 00:31:38.609 your shorties on. I think you tried the steps 00:31:38.609 --> 00:31:40.170 a couple of times and then you switched to the 00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:43.369 ones that literally were like pads and bear crawled 00:31:43.369 --> 00:31:45.369 a hundred and whatever floors that we climbed. 00:31:45.849 --> 00:31:47.769 which made me feel like an even bigger pussy 00:31:47.769 --> 00:31:49.710 because i didn't even have my uh my fire gear 00:31:49.710 --> 00:31:53.109 on but i mean it was it was amazing to watch 00:31:53.109 --> 00:31:55.250 though yeah the first couple times i did that 00:31:55.250 --> 00:31:57.509 tower climb i did in the x4s and part of the 00:31:57.509 --> 00:32:01.009 reason i did that was i thought it's what i had 00:32:01.009 --> 00:32:04.069 to do i hadn't really thought of a different 00:32:04.069 --> 00:32:06.829 way i hadn't done it before so i hadn't i didn't 00:32:06.829 --> 00:32:08.829 have the experience to really think about a different 00:32:08.829 --> 00:32:12.529 way to do it uh and also i kind of wanted to 00:32:12.529 --> 00:32:15.289 do it in those because I kind of saw it as a 00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:17.029 way for me to learn how to go upstairs better. 00:32:17.329 --> 00:32:19.549 Cause there's a mode in the, in the legs that 00:32:19.549 --> 00:32:23.009 I was wearing that you do a certain motion with 00:32:23.009 --> 00:32:24.710 a leg and it goes into like the stair climbing 00:32:24.710 --> 00:32:27.430 mode. And I wasn't really good at doing that. 00:32:27.490 --> 00:32:29.289 So I figured the tower climb could be a good 00:32:29.289 --> 00:32:32.450 way for me to, to force me how to learn how to 00:32:32.450 --> 00:32:34.690 do that because you never know when you're going 00:32:34.690 --> 00:32:37.250 to be on a subway in New York city and you have 00:32:37.250 --> 00:32:39.470 to go upstairs and there's all these people around 00:32:39.470 --> 00:32:42.569 you. So it'd be good to be able to it's just 00:32:42.569 --> 00:32:45.670 a good skill to have. And then I did that. So 00:32:45.670 --> 00:32:47.150 I did that the first couple of times, but I thought, 00:32:47.250 --> 00:32:49.430 all right, now that's over. Now I want to figure 00:32:49.430 --> 00:32:52.230 out what is the, what is the leg set up that 00:32:52.230 --> 00:32:55.069 would, that would make me the fastest. Cause 00:32:55.069 --> 00:32:57.170 it felt, it always felt really slow. I felt like 00:32:57.170 --> 00:33:00.130 I could be faster, but I was slowed down by having 00:33:00.130 --> 00:33:03.670 to do this, like this step over step thing that 00:33:03.670 --> 00:33:05.990 I was doing. So I'd accomplished what I wanted 00:33:05.990 --> 00:33:07.670 to accomplish with that. So then I started going, 00:33:07.769 --> 00:33:10.130 well, how can I be the fastest I could be? And 00:33:10.130 --> 00:33:12.859 really what I realized was that. In order to 00:33:12.859 --> 00:33:14.380 climb all these stairs, I didn't actually need 00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:19.259 the legs. I could just put on these legs that 00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:21.339 I use for jujitsu and squatting, which doesn't 00:33:21.339 --> 00:33:24.279 have any prosthetic component to it. It's just 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:27.759 a socket with, like you said, pads on the bottom. 00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:30.460 I just walk on that and, like you said, bear 00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:33.619 crawl essentially up the steps. And it was probably 00:33:33.619 --> 00:33:40.140 a good 25 to 30 minutes faster. And so that's, 00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:42.920 you know, I think that was maybe the, when you 00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:45.000 joined us, it was the first or second year that 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:48.279 I tried that and worked out a lot better. Yeah, 00:33:48.279 --> 00:33:51.519 no, you flew up there. It was amazing. So yeah, 00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:54.559 it's just figuring out the tools, the situation 00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:57.900 that facilitate you to be the best version of 00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:00.819 whatever you're trying to do. Speaking of jiu 00:34:00.819 --> 00:34:03.740 -jitsu, I had Kyle Maynard on the show. He's 00:34:03.740 --> 00:34:08.019 a quadruple congenital amputee, but he was MMA, 00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.579 jiu -jitsu, and then Mark Ormrod, triple amputee, 00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:14.420 does jiu -jitsu as well. Have you got to roll 00:34:14.420 --> 00:34:17.099 with fellow amputees and see what the pros and 00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:21.159 cons are for all the different limb losses? I 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:24.440 haven't rolled with any. The first time I ever 00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:28.969 rolled, I was at Jocko's gym. I had never done 00:34:28.969 --> 00:34:31.610 any jiu -jitsu before, and he had me roll with 00:34:31.610 --> 00:34:35.690 a guy that was missing his hand. I forget what 00:34:35.690 --> 00:34:37.449 his name was. That's the only time I've ever 00:34:37.449 --> 00:34:41.650 rolled with another amputee. That being said, 00:34:41.710 --> 00:34:46.309 my brother from Afghanistan, Dowdell, he's a 00:34:46.309 --> 00:34:47.869 black belt. He's a double above knee amputee 00:34:47.869 --> 00:34:50.440 too. So I ask him from time to time. I'll send 00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:52.940 him a text and go, what do you like to do for 00:34:52.940 --> 00:34:54.920 side control? What do you like to do for guard? 00:34:55.159 --> 00:34:56.360 What do you like to do for this? And he'll send 00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:58.760 me a video and give me some tips. But really, 00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:04.340 I mean, my professor, my jiu -jitsu professor, 00:35:04.460 --> 00:35:06.900 Professor Charles, I ask him a question, he gives 00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:09.880 me probably just as good advice because he's 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:13.039 just that experienced. He can do it. And again, 00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:15.920 it's just use the stuff that works. Don't use 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:19.099 the stuff that doesn't work for you. Like, uh, 00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:21.639 I, I'm not really going to be able to do a thing 00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:23.980 where I hook somebody's leg with my ankle because 00:35:23.980 --> 00:35:26.960 I don't do a closed guard because I literally 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:30.400 can't do it. And so just don't, just don't bother 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:34.360 with, with it. Just do what, you know, do what 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.900 works for you. Um, but no, I haven't rolled that 00:35:37.900 --> 00:35:40.039 in with any other amputees. I want to for sure, 00:35:40.139 --> 00:35:42.559 but, uh, I haven't, I don't, I don't, I only 00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:45.460 go once a week. on saturdays usually because 00:35:45.460 --> 00:35:48.139 my main focus and or my main purpose in doing 00:35:48.139 --> 00:35:50.539 jiu -jitsu is to get my son to be able to want 00:35:50.539 --> 00:35:53.119 to do it and so we do we go we do the parents 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:56.079 kids class and then there's an adults class i 00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:58.739 do right after that so i usually only do it the 00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:01.800 one time a week but i would like to do it more 00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:04.840 i just need to figure out the scheduling i think 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:08.940 mark and certainly kyle um and i think i'll get 00:36:08.940 --> 00:36:11.119 his full name now but there's that wrestler who's 00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:13.400 like literally congenital again he's got like 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:15.829 his diaphragm and that's about it almost stops 00:36:15.829 --> 00:36:18.690 at his hips crazy yeah yeah but when they're 00:36:18.690 --> 00:36:20.849 first wrestling everyone's fine just rolling 00:36:20.849 --> 00:36:22.750 them around you know in these competitions but 00:36:22.750 --> 00:36:25.170 as they get better then and only then people 00:36:25.170 --> 00:36:27.429 start complaining well wait a second it's not 00:36:27.429 --> 00:36:29.289 fair because you know they'd be in this this 00:36:29.289 --> 00:36:31.969 higher weight but you were fine when you were 00:36:31.969 --> 00:36:34.170 number four but now they're getting better and 00:36:34.170 --> 00:36:36.389 they're beating you now you have a problem with 00:36:36.389 --> 00:36:37.909 with the fact that they're lighter without their 00:36:37.909 --> 00:36:41.170 legs for example yeah that's funny that's just 00:36:41.170 --> 00:36:44.670 ego man Absolutely. That's funny. All right. 00:36:44.750 --> 00:36:48.150 Before we go to the book, talk to me about your 00:36:48.150 --> 00:36:50.170 journey into Ashkelon Front. Because I got to 00:36:50.170 --> 00:36:52.809 meet you again in Orlando a few weeks ago. I 00:36:52.809 --> 00:36:54.449 got to watch your presentation, which was amazing. 00:36:55.469 --> 00:36:57.630 Lead me through that path to Jocko and Leif. 00:36:59.550 --> 00:37:04.889 Yeah. So I was on Jocko's podcast in 2017, right 00:37:04.889 --> 00:37:06.650 before the month of marathons. Had me on the 00:37:06.650 --> 00:37:09.590 podcast. And then afterwards, he had me on again 00:37:09.590 --> 00:37:12.460 to talk about how it went and everything. And 00:37:12.460 --> 00:37:14.300 at that point I had been getting some requests 00:37:14.300 --> 00:37:17.719 for motivational speaking. And I remember that 00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:23.219 I just asked him how he books things. And he 00:37:23.219 --> 00:37:24.960 said, well, you know, I just, you know, Echelon 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:27.199 Front is my company and that's how, you know, 00:37:27.219 --> 00:37:28.840 that's how I, all my events get booked through 00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:33.659 them. And then he, you know, I, and I just said, 00:37:33.739 --> 00:37:36.320 okay, thanks. And then I didn't really do anything 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:38.900 with that information for a while. And I started 00:37:38.900 --> 00:37:41.429 trying to build out. my own motivational speaking 00:37:41.429 --> 00:37:45.630 career. Took a break from it to run for Congress 00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:47.630 and all that stuff, and then went back to it. 00:37:48.190 --> 00:37:51.130 And I remember our good friend Jason Gardner 00:37:51.130 --> 00:37:54.869 invited me out to Battlefield, which is an event 00:37:54.869 --> 00:37:57.510 that we do where we go to – it used to be at 00:37:57.510 --> 00:37:58.590 Gettysburg. They're doing it at Fredericksburg 00:37:58.590 --> 00:38:01.349 this year. But we go out to a battlefield, and 00:38:01.349 --> 00:38:02.929 we talk about the leadership lessons that happen 00:38:02.929 --> 00:38:04.969 at the battlefield, and then we do a bunch of 00:38:04.969 --> 00:38:07.469 group discussion and introspection about how 00:38:07.469 --> 00:38:10.550 that particular lesson applies to – to our world. 00:38:10.630 --> 00:38:14.250 It's an awesome event. Um, and the only thing 00:38:14.250 --> 00:38:15.670 I really had to talk about at that event was 00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:19.030 my motivational, you know, family stuff. And 00:38:19.030 --> 00:38:21.210 then my motivational speaking, you know, challenges. 00:38:21.750 --> 00:38:23.710 And eventually we got off the bus one time and 00:38:23.710 --> 00:38:25.389 Leif came up to me and he was asking me about, 00:38:25.409 --> 00:38:28.750 you know, how I book events. Did I use a speaker's 00:38:28.750 --> 00:38:31.130 bureau, all these different things. And eventually 00:38:31.130 --> 00:38:32.989 he said, well, why don't you come over and check 00:38:32.989 --> 00:38:34.889 out what we're doing at Echelon front? And at 00:38:34.889 --> 00:38:36.369 that point I said, well, if you're going to offer 00:38:36.369 --> 00:38:40.480 me a dream job, then I'm going to say, hell yes 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:44.139 not only yes but hell yes uh and then so you 00:38:44.139 --> 00:38:47.079 know followed up with them after after battlefield 00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:52.599 and they got me you know into the uh into the 00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:57.679 system and i started just going to events that 00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:59.579 they you know that they had instructors going 00:38:59.579 --> 00:39:02.320 to they just had me observe i would just go and 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.760 watch and see how it was and after i watched 00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.539 a few they asked me life and then asked me you 00:39:08.539 --> 00:39:10.579 know What did you think? Is this something that 00:39:10.579 --> 00:39:12.400 you think you would want to do? And I went, yes. 00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.159 And then after that, I got set up with a mentor, 00:39:16.300 --> 00:39:19.400 Steve Ward, and I would just go on a lot of his 00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:21.840 events. And he would sit down with me and say, 00:39:21.940 --> 00:39:24.579 this is the keynote, so I want you to build out 00:39:24.579 --> 00:39:28.079 your keynote. You have to cover these subjects. 00:39:29.179 --> 00:39:31.539 This is what I want you to build one out. And 00:39:31.539 --> 00:39:33.639 then so I sat down and worked on that, crafted 00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:36.570 that. And, you know, watch more keynotes and 00:39:36.570 --> 00:39:38.449 stuff. And eventually I briefed my keynote to 00:39:38.449 --> 00:39:42.570 Steve. I briefed my keynote to Sean and all these 00:39:42.570 --> 00:39:44.670 other people I was traveling with. They gave 00:39:44.670 --> 00:39:47.869 me tips. Then eventually, as I got better and 00:39:47.869 --> 00:39:51.989 better, they started letting me do one thing 00:39:51.989 --> 00:39:54.409 that we teach. One four or five minute talking 00:39:54.409 --> 00:39:57.389 point or one philosophy that we teach, like a 00:39:57.389 --> 00:40:00.110 mindset, like default aggressive. They would 00:40:00.110 --> 00:40:04.719 let me do that. And they would evaluate me. Give 00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:07.239 me tips. I would practice more. And eventually, 00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:08.539 as they got more and more comfortable, they'd 00:40:08.539 --> 00:40:12.380 let me start taking on more and more of the keynote 00:40:12.380 --> 00:40:14.739 until eventually they said, all right, final 00:40:14.739 --> 00:40:17.599 checkout. Do your keynote for us. Did some Q 00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:21.139 &A. They said, you know, they evaluated me. They 00:40:21.139 --> 00:40:22.420 said I was good. And then I could start doing 00:40:22.420 --> 00:40:24.460 keynotes on my own. Then it's the same thing 00:40:24.460 --> 00:40:26.539 for half -day, full -day workshops. You just 00:40:26.539 --> 00:40:29.000 get to do more and more of it until eventually. 00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:32.019 They feel comfortable that you're going to be 00:40:32.019 --> 00:40:34.360 able to go out and represent Echelon Front well 00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:37.800 and actually teach what we need to be able to 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:42.500 teach. And that process probably took about six 00:40:42.500 --> 00:40:45.059 months, I would say, or a little bit longer than 00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:47.579 six months. And eventually they say, we would 00:40:47.579 --> 00:40:52.889 like to offer you the position officially. And 00:40:52.889 --> 00:40:55.329 now I get to go out. It's the best job ever. 00:40:55.389 --> 00:40:57.889 I get to go spend time with my friends. I get 00:40:57.889 --> 00:41:00.510 to go out and I get to help people every time 00:41:00.510 --> 00:41:03.150 I work. And every time I work is the even better 00:41:03.150 --> 00:41:05.309 thing. Every time I go out and do an event, I 00:41:05.309 --> 00:41:07.369 come back a better person because I'm thinking 00:41:07.369 --> 00:41:09.389 about extreme ownership and I'm thinking about 00:41:09.389 --> 00:41:11.309 leadership. I'm thinking about the laws of combat. 00:41:12.150 --> 00:41:15.769 It's impossible to teach all these things and 00:41:15.769 --> 00:41:17.969 not think about how it applies to myself in ways 00:41:17.969 --> 00:41:20.090 that I can be better in all these different ways. 00:41:20.829 --> 00:41:23.849 Every time I go and work, I get to come back 00:41:23.849 --> 00:41:25.849 a better person, and very few people get to say 00:41:25.849 --> 00:41:30.710 that. When you came off having spoken in Orlando, 00:41:30.909 --> 00:41:33.250 I remember even them were asking for notes on 00:41:33.250 --> 00:41:37.349 your talk. What are some of the things, the real 00:41:37.349 --> 00:41:40.269 aha moments for you as far as that stage presence 00:41:40.269 --> 00:41:43.150 and that public speaking element that maybe you 00:41:43.150 --> 00:41:44.849 weren't doing very much earlier in your life? 00:41:49.420 --> 00:41:53.719 I don't know if I had a specific aha moment that 00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:55.639 really made a bunch of things click into place. 00:41:56.019 --> 00:41:59.260 I think for me it was more of a steady learn 00:41:59.260 --> 00:42:01.340 a little bit, learn a little bit. So the first 00:42:01.340 --> 00:42:05.280 time I spoke on stage, it was shortly after I 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.619 was wounded, and I got asked to speak at my veterans 00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:10.340 – or my old high school's Veterans Day assembly. 00:42:10.820 --> 00:42:12.880 And I literally just had a piece of paper that 00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:14.699 I wrote from, and you could hear my voice cracking 00:42:14.699 --> 00:42:17.909 and all this different stuff. That was the first 00:42:17.909 --> 00:42:19.829 time I really spoke on stage, but it was just 00:42:19.829 --> 00:42:23.449 consistent, regular practice and being willing 00:42:23.449 --> 00:42:29.750 to listen to feedback and being willing to keep 00:42:29.750 --> 00:42:32.630 practicing and keep practicing. I think the biggest 00:42:32.630 --> 00:42:34.449 thing to remember is that there's always something 00:42:34.449 --> 00:42:39.530 that you can improve on no matter how good you 00:42:39.530 --> 00:42:43.150 get. We could probably do a whole podcast on 00:42:43.150 --> 00:42:45.929 different aspects of speaking in front of a group. 00:42:46.590 --> 00:42:49.130 But really, there isn't really going to be an 00:42:49.130 --> 00:42:52.170 aha moment. It's just consistent, regular practice 00:42:52.170 --> 00:42:54.650 and development and learning from other people, 00:42:54.710 --> 00:42:57.969 looking up different philosophies on how to speak, 00:42:58.250 --> 00:42:59.909 different ways of doing things. Find the one 00:42:59.909 --> 00:43:01.449 that resonates with you. Practice it, practice 00:43:01.449 --> 00:43:03.110 it, practice it. Do it with other people. Get 00:43:03.110 --> 00:43:06.610 some feedback. Try it again. Rewrite things to 00:43:06.610 --> 00:43:08.150 think about the things that you're saying. How 00:43:08.150 --> 00:43:10.530 can I say that in a better way? Just regular, 00:43:10.550 --> 00:43:14.090 constant improvement is really what it's all 00:43:14.090 --> 00:43:19.590 about. much of an aha moment that I would say 00:43:19.590 --> 00:43:21.869 that I could really recognize, but it was just 00:43:21.869 --> 00:43:24.269 that continuous development that got me to where 00:43:24.269 --> 00:43:27.809 I am now. And a lot of help from a lot of, you 00:43:27.809 --> 00:43:29.429 know, a lot of the other instructors that give 00:43:29.429 --> 00:43:33.170 me advice. I had Sean Glass on the show, literally. 00:43:33.210 --> 00:43:35.610 I just put his episode out yesterday. I think 00:43:35.610 --> 00:43:38.789 we interviewed about two weeks ago. And really 00:43:38.789 --> 00:43:41.469 interesting because he had some experience working 00:43:41.469 --> 00:43:43.610 with first responders through Echelon Front. 00:43:44.059 --> 00:43:45.960 Have you found yourself working with that group? 00:43:46.739 --> 00:43:48.980 Yeah, I've done a decent number of events with 00:43:48.980 --> 00:43:51.699 first responders. Yeah, they're all awesome. 00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:55.960 They have the same challenges we all do. If any, 00:43:56.099 --> 00:43:59.699 what was some of the myths or things that you 00:43:59.699 --> 00:44:01.900 didn't understand about that profession until 00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:06.420 you started working with them specifically? Ooh, 00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:09.760 myths. I don't know. I don't know if I really 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:13.000 believed in anything that was a myth about. first 00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:15.000 responders i have a lot of i've had a lot of 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:20.519 experience with first responders to the point 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:25.099 that i don't know if i had any anything that 00:44:25.099 --> 00:44:27.260 i would call a myth that got dispelled what was 00:44:27.260 --> 00:44:30.219 sean's um well i don't know if i even asked him 00:44:30.219 --> 00:44:31.840 that specifically what i'll ask you next then 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.860 is were there any common denominators then as 00:44:34.860 --> 00:44:38.079 far as the leadership challenges that you seem 00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.239 to hear from the first responders Honestly, it's 00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:46.500 always going to be – what we teach at Echelon 00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:48.099 Front is leadership is the solution to every 00:44:48.099 --> 00:44:51.119 problem. And what leadership really breaks down 00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.500 to is the four laws of combat. And every time 00:44:54.500 --> 00:44:58.119 we work with a team, when they're struggling, 00:44:58.199 --> 00:44:59.900 they're violating the laws of combat. When they're 00:44:59.900 --> 00:45:01.480 doing well, they're living up to the laws of 00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:05.380 combat. And it's the same thing across the board 00:45:05.380 --> 00:45:09.000 for every single team that we work with, whether 00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:12.989 it's first responders. uh businesses classrooms 00:45:12.989 --> 00:45:16.690 individuals all the same people it's the same 00:45:16.690 --> 00:45:20.050 exact thing and it's just that it manifests itself 00:45:20.050 --> 00:45:23.150 in in different ways that are specific maybe 00:45:23.150 --> 00:45:26.309 specific to first responders like you know first 00:45:26.309 --> 00:45:30.869 responders uh there's like there's a there's 00:45:30.869 --> 00:45:33.829 a rank structure in first responders that doesn't 00:45:33.829 --> 00:45:38.000 exist in a business or in a nonprofit or something 00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:42.579 like that. There's command structure of lieutenants, 00:45:42.599 --> 00:45:44.119 sergeants, and all these different things. So 00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:47.420 that makes things a little bit more different 00:45:47.420 --> 00:45:51.780 than a corporation, but you still got to be able 00:45:51.780 --> 00:45:53.119 to lead up the chain of command. You still have 00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:55.340 to build relationships. You still have to do 00:45:55.340 --> 00:45:58.739 all the same stuff. It's just it might look a 00:45:58.739 --> 00:46:03.179 little bit different. But yeah, man, it's really, 00:46:03.340 --> 00:46:07.480 I don't know. that there's anything that is specific 00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:09.699 to first responders from my experience that I 00:46:09.699 --> 00:46:11.739 wouldn't say also applies in every other team. 00:46:12.820 --> 00:46:14.900 One of the challenges that we have, I'll paint 00:46:14.900 --> 00:46:19.139 a picture then, is at the moment we are going 00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:22.440 through an incredibly horrendous recruitment 00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:25.139 and retention crisis in the first responder profession. 00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:28.460 And it's not that some suggest that kids these 00:46:28.460 --> 00:46:30.360 days don't want to do the job, don't want to 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:33.510 work. It's the opposite. Kids these days, the 00:46:33.510 --> 00:46:35.309 ones that are the right candidates for the military, 00:46:35.389 --> 00:46:38.449 for the first responders, have access to all 00:46:38.449 --> 00:46:41.349 this information. And they can ask Google, is 00:46:41.349 --> 00:46:44.570 it healthy to be a firefighter? And 25 years 00:46:44.570 --> 00:46:48.510 ago when I came on, when I was looking at least, 00:46:48.710 --> 00:46:51.389 we weren't even asking that question. It was 00:46:51.389 --> 00:46:52.769 just like, how do I become a firefighter? That 00:46:52.769 --> 00:46:55.070 was the only thing. Now, even though there are 00:46:55.070 --> 00:46:57.090 so many great things about the profession, people 00:46:57.090 --> 00:47:00.760 can also see. The understaffing, the overworking, 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:04.039 the diseases and mental health issues, et cetera, 00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:07.000 et cetera. And these are all very preventable 00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:10.019 issues. If you take the money that's downstream, 00:47:10.219 --> 00:47:13.039 that's wasted through all things, mismanagement, 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:16.139 and you invest in an extra shift, more staffing, 00:47:16.340 --> 00:47:19.300 that will forge recruitment. People will come 00:47:19.300 --> 00:47:21.519 back to become firefighters again. So that's 00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:23.820 how you fix it. And then now these vacancies 00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:25.460 are filled. People aren't being forced to work 00:47:25.460 --> 00:47:29.940 overtime. And that's great healing. But I know 00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:33.079 a lot of great people in departments that are 00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:35.300 trying to make change. And it might be a chief, 00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:37.639 it might be a city or county council member, 00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:42.199 it might be the union president is pushing against 00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:44.940 this. So where I'm seeing, and again, I'm not 00:47:44.940 --> 00:47:47.400 tarring everyone with the same brush, but this 00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:50.539 is quite a frequent event, is there are people 00:47:50.539 --> 00:47:53.519 that are in these positions that enjoy a 40 -hour 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:55.480 work week, that go home at five every night. 00:47:55.849 --> 00:47:57.730 And they're not advocating for the people that 00:47:57.730 --> 00:47:59.949 are working 80 hours a week and being told they 00:47:59.949 --> 00:48:02.190 can't go home to their family. So an absence 00:48:02.190 --> 00:48:06.829 of moral courage. Talk to me about if you are, 00:48:06.889 --> 00:48:08.469 you know, put yourself in that position. You're 00:48:08.469 --> 00:48:11.150 a passionate firefighter. You have extreme ownership. 00:48:11.269 --> 00:48:12.869 And I actually put this to Jocko when I interviewed 00:48:12.869 --> 00:48:15.389 him the first time. You really are living it 00:48:15.389 --> 00:48:18.670 that way. How are you able to create a movement? 00:48:19.230 --> 00:48:23.230 to maybe navigate a barrier that is in, as you 00:48:23.230 --> 00:48:26.670 said, a rank or a position that's a lot harder 00:48:26.670 --> 00:48:32.289 to navigate? So I would say, especially with 00:48:32.289 --> 00:48:36.230 first responder and military, yeah, the answer 00:48:36.230 --> 00:48:39.570 is it's not healthy. Definitely not healthy. 00:48:39.710 --> 00:48:43.239 You're not doing it for your health. But why? 00:48:43.300 --> 00:48:45.559 But people still do. Why do why do people still 00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:47.440 keep signing up to be first responders? Why do 00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:49.239 people keep why do people sign up to be in the 00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:54.159 Marine Corps during a war? I'll speak from my 00:48:54.159 --> 00:49:00.280 own experience. I signed up in 2006 to go to 00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:02.519 join the Marine Corps in the middle of two wars, 00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:06.119 knowing and actually wanting to go and fight 00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:09.099 in one of those wars. And I wasn't doing it for 00:49:09.099 --> 00:49:11.489 my health. I wasn't doing it because I was going 00:49:11.489 --> 00:49:13.989 to get paid well. I was doing it because I cared 00:49:13.989 --> 00:49:17.030 about things more important to me than that. 00:49:17.869 --> 00:49:20.369 I wanted to go be a part of a brotherhood. I 00:49:20.369 --> 00:49:22.050 wanted to do something that was meaningful. I 00:49:22.050 --> 00:49:24.929 wanted to do something that mattered. That's 00:49:24.929 --> 00:49:28.110 why I joined the Marine Corps during a war. And 00:49:28.110 --> 00:49:30.570 then when I got in, I got all those things and 00:49:30.570 --> 00:49:32.170 it was really hard. And there was a lot of challenging 00:49:32.170 --> 00:49:34.329 parts of being in the Marine Corps. And I remember 00:49:34.329 --> 00:49:36.250 when I was in Afghanistan, we had just pushed 00:49:36.250 --> 00:49:41.909 into a place called, uh musa musa kayla uh and 00:49:41.909 --> 00:49:44.710 i'm pretty sure i this has kind of been the beginning 00:49:44.710 --> 00:49:48.070 of my book but uh musa kayla and i i think i 00:49:48.070 --> 00:49:49.829 tell the story in the book about how i was standing 00:49:49.829 --> 00:49:53.949 on that um on that that hill with all these vehicles 00:49:53.949 --> 00:49:56.630 around i was talking to my friend daniel and 00:49:56.630 --> 00:49:59.550 i was talking about all these different you know 00:49:59.550 --> 00:50:02.590 i i we were drinking well water so we we had 00:50:02.590 --> 00:50:06.570 basically uh dysentery our guts were messed up 00:50:06.570 --> 00:50:10.940 my Entire body was covered in sand flea bites 00:50:10.940 --> 00:50:15.440 and itched, chafing. I felt like I was 80 years 00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:20.960 old. I felt terrible. Then I said, I'm the happiest 00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:23.619 I've ever been in my entire life. And the reason 00:50:23.619 --> 00:50:25.719 for that was because I was doing something that 00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:27.380 – like I said, I was doing something that mattered. 00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.340 I was a part of a brotherhood, and I looked around. 00:50:29.539 --> 00:50:31.780 And at that moment, I decided I want to be in 00:50:31.780 --> 00:50:33.079 the Marine Corps as long as possible. I want 00:50:33.079 --> 00:50:35.039 to keep doing this as long as I can. And the 00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:36.900 reason I decided to stay was because of all the 00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:39.619 people around me. I looked around at my fellow 00:50:39.619 --> 00:50:42.940 Marines. That's the reason I wanted to stay is 00:50:42.940 --> 00:50:44.400 because of all these people around me. It wasn't 00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:47.039 because – it was – yes, the mission mattered. 00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:48.519 I love being in the Marine Corps. I love all 00:50:48.519 --> 00:50:51.420 those things. But it was really because the people 00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:54.619 around me made all this stuff not feel so bad. 00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:57.940 They were all going through it with me. And that's 00:50:57.940 --> 00:51:00.760 what made me want to stay. It was the people 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:03.679 I was with. So what I would say is there's a 00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:06.280 lot of things that you can't control as a first 00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:08.340 responder. You can't control what the board of 00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:12.539 supervisors or the city council decides as you're 00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:16.599 funding whatever. A lot of the times you don't 00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:19.619 have tons of control over. decisions that your 00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:21.719 chief makes about various things. You have some, 00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.260 but ultimately, the chief is going to make the 00:51:24.260 --> 00:51:28.980 decision. What you can do is control who you 00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:31.679 are as a person and be a person that other people 00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:35.840 would want to come to work and be around and 00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:39.579 would want to keep doing this really tough job. 00:51:41.339 --> 00:51:43.199 Because they're doing it and they're coming in 00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:45.760 and getting to be with people that they care 00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:48.679 about, that they love, and that they enjoy being 00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:50.820 at work with. So that's the number one thing 00:51:50.820 --> 00:51:53.019 I would say is just be a person that other people 00:51:53.019 --> 00:51:56.800 want to come to work and work with. And just 00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:58.639 never forget that it feels like you don't have 00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:03.170 lots of control. If you lead effectively and 00:52:03.170 --> 00:52:05.389 you build good relationships and you execute 00:52:05.389 --> 00:52:06.829 on the laws of combat and you take ownership 00:52:06.829 --> 00:52:08.869 of all the problems in your life, guess what's 00:52:08.869 --> 00:52:10.170 going to happen is you're going to have more 00:52:10.170 --> 00:52:11.829 opportunities open up to you and you can move 00:52:11.829 --> 00:52:13.670 up the ranks. The more you move up the ranks, 00:52:13.769 --> 00:52:15.670 the more that mindset that you have is going 00:52:15.670 --> 00:52:17.130 to move up the ranks, the more influence you're 00:52:17.130 --> 00:52:20.190 going to get. And then you can really help people. 00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.320 You know, when you have a bigger position of 00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:24.960 influence and it's going to take a long time, 00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:27.000 it's going to be really hard to do along the 00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:29.000 way. But if you have that as your goal, if you 00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:31.980 really want to help firefighters, then you can 00:52:31.980 --> 00:52:34.860 stick around and you can gain as much influence 00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:36.739 as you can and get to a point where you have 00:52:36.739 --> 00:52:38.539 a lot more influence on the lives of firefighters 00:52:38.539 --> 00:52:41.760 and police officers and paramedics and all first 00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:44.320 responders. Absolutely. Well, I think that's 00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:46.639 the thing is we have that service burning in 00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:49.610 our heart. But if you're not careful, it gets 00:52:49.610 --> 00:52:53.190 taken advantage of. A lot of the military units 00:52:53.190 --> 00:52:56.469 now, they have organizations like the Thor 3 00:52:56.469 --> 00:52:58.610 program for the Green Berets where they're taking 00:52:58.610 --> 00:53:00.190 care of their people and they're forging performance 00:53:00.190 --> 00:53:02.289 and they're doing great prehab and rehab and 00:53:02.289 --> 00:53:04.610 all these other things. And we don't really have 00:53:04.610 --> 00:53:07.050 that in our profession yet. And I think we can. 00:53:08.070 --> 00:53:10.530 So that's the thing is if you love the men and 00:53:10.530 --> 00:53:12.130 women to the left and the right of you, you also 00:53:12.130 --> 00:53:14.980 fight. for them to be an environment that allows 00:53:14.980 --> 00:53:16.739 them to thrive, allows them to go home, allows 00:53:16.739 --> 00:53:19.079 them to rest and recover. Let's flip it on its 00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.300 head. Now we're talking to that fire chief. And 00:53:22.300 --> 00:53:23.800 again, I'm not picking on all chiefs, but in 00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:27.960 this example, that is refusing to acknowledge 00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:30.679 that there is a problem and refusing to find 00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:33.019 the courage to actually go to the city or the 00:53:33.019 --> 00:53:36.139 county and say, look, we need to reallocate funds 00:53:36.139 --> 00:53:38.679 so that we can be proactive and fix some of this 00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:41.480 financial bleeding and these health issues that 00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:44.119 we have. Let's say it's someone who's kind of 00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:47.659 on the fence. What can we say to them to maybe 00:53:47.659 --> 00:53:49.800 get them to look in the mirror and reconsider 00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:53.639 maybe their disconnection with the men and women 00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:56.920 that are actually serving under them? If they're 00:53:56.920 --> 00:53:59.699 in denial about the fact that there's an issue, 00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:03.599 that sounds to me like they have closed their 00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:05.539 mind and they're not willing to let their mind 00:54:05.539 --> 00:54:08.639 be opened because they don't want to hear the 00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:12.670 truth. And so what I would say is get out there, 00:54:12.750 --> 00:54:14.869 and you've got to talk to more people. You have 00:54:14.869 --> 00:54:17.809 to go out and actually listen to as many people 00:54:17.809 --> 00:54:19.869 as you can. You've got to get out of your office. 00:54:19.929 --> 00:54:22.349 You've got to go down to each firehouse or each 00:54:22.349 --> 00:54:25.210 – and look, I'm going to say firefighter terms 00:54:25.210 --> 00:54:26.789 because you're a firefighter, but this applies 00:54:26.789 --> 00:54:29.210 obviously to every first responder. I'm not trying 00:54:29.210 --> 00:54:30.909 to leave anybody out. But you've got to get down 00:54:30.909 --> 00:54:32.670 to the firehouse, and you've got to talk to people, 00:54:32.809 --> 00:54:34.909 spend some time with them, see what they're experiencing, 00:54:35.090 --> 00:54:38.389 and actually listen to them. And the vast majority 00:54:38.389 --> 00:54:40.909 of the time, they might say something that you 00:54:40.909 --> 00:54:43.969 don't want to hear. But even though you don't 00:54:43.969 --> 00:54:46.389 want to hear it, that's the truth. That's what 00:54:46.389 --> 00:54:49.429 you have to accept. And you have to be able to 00:54:49.429 --> 00:54:52.690 put your ego aside because that's the only way 00:54:52.690 --> 00:54:54.570 that you're going to be able to help them. And 00:54:54.570 --> 00:54:57.289 just remember where you came from as well. Remember 00:54:57.289 --> 00:55:00.190 that you were probably a frontline firefighter 00:55:00.190 --> 00:55:03.130 at one point. You're thinking all these different 00:55:03.130 --> 00:55:05.409 things and how great would it have been if your 00:55:05.409 --> 00:55:07.769 chief actually listened to you and responded 00:55:07.769 --> 00:55:10.869 to the things that you needed. So that's what 00:55:10.869 --> 00:55:12.690 I would say. You have to get out of the office. 00:55:12.769 --> 00:55:14.329 You have to open up your mind. You have to listen 00:55:14.329 --> 00:55:16.849 to other people. Put your ego aside so that you 00:55:16.849 --> 00:55:21.550 can make a change. Absolutely. Are you guys still 00:55:21.550 --> 00:55:25.289 planning on doing more roll calls? The musters 00:55:25.289 --> 00:55:28.210 focused on first responders? I know that there 00:55:28.210 --> 00:55:31.760 is a... I don't know about the roll call, but 00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:34.519 I know that there's a plan in place right now 00:55:34.519 --> 00:55:43.719 to try and facilitate more first responder training. 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:47.199 I don't exactly know what is in the works with 00:55:47.199 --> 00:55:50.639 it, but I know that my colleague Danny Zeem is 00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:55.320 working on something. I would also say, this 00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:56.539 is something I've been thinking about too, hey, 00:55:56.559 --> 00:55:58.219 if you're a first responder organization and 00:55:58.219 --> 00:56:00.199 you want to do some leadership training, Look 00:56:00.199 --> 00:56:03.380 into Gary Sneese Foundation. Look into Leary 00:56:03.380 --> 00:56:06.940 Firefighters. I know that they will give grants 00:56:06.940 --> 00:56:11.500 out for first responder training. I don't know 00:56:11.500 --> 00:56:12.960 if they give out grants for leadership training, 00:56:13.099 --> 00:56:15.679 but I would definitely apply and see what they 00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:20.059 say. Talk to our team. Get a quote for a workshop 00:56:20.059 --> 00:56:22.260 or get a keynote or something like that. And 00:56:22.260 --> 00:56:23.880 if it's outside your budget, go to one of these 00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:28.860 nonprofits and see if they'll give you a grant. 00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:32.840 This is interesting, and I was talking, I think, 00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:34.840 to Jocko and Jason a long time ago about this. 00:56:34.980 --> 00:56:41.179 We have promotional exams, and there's prerequisites 00:56:41.179 --> 00:56:45.460 of a degree program, officer classes, but there's 00:56:45.460 --> 00:56:48.239 not actual leadership training woven into that. 00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:51.519 And if you look at it, it's very kind of academic, 00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:54.789 and you might have someone who's a... super respected 00:56:54.789 --> 00:56:58.889 firefighter, salt of the earth, walks the walk, 00:56:59.070 --> 00:57:02.070 but maybe doesn't have that academic framework, 00:57:02.329 --> 00:57:04.789 but arguably would actually be a better leader 00:57:04.789 --> 00:57:08.110 than someone who acquired all the papers. It's 00:57:08.110 --> 00:57:09.949 definitely a missing piece in our promotional 00:57:09.949 --> 00:57:13.570 system. It's a missing piece in a lot of promotional 00:57:13.570 --> 00:57:18.130 systems. You just described basically how most 00:57:18.130 --> 00:57:19.750 people get promoted is that they're good at their 00:57:19.750 --> 00:57:21.469 job and they know a lot about their technical 00:57:21.469 --> 00:57:24.070 skills that they need to have. And then people 00:57:24.070 --> 00:57:25.750 just assume that because they have the technical 00:57:25.750 --> 00:57:27.550 skills and technical knowledge that they're also 00:57:27.550 --> 00:57:29.250 going to be a good leader. But it's two separate 00:57:29.250 --> 00:57:32.469 things because leadership is all about human 00:57:32.469 --> 00:57:35.090 beings. It's about human nature. It's about knowing 00:57:35.090 --> 00:57:38.929 about human beings and how to work with them 00:57:38.929 --> 00:57:41.730 better as opposed to knowing how to put out a 00:57:41.730 --> 00:57:44.090 fire. That's important. It's important to know. 00:57:44.409 --> 00:57:47.630 It's important for your lieutenant to know all 00:57:47.630 --> 00:57:49.210 the stuff that they have to take on that exam. 00:57:49.349 --> 00:57:51.650 That's vital information. But yeah, you got to 00:57:51.650 --> 00:57:53.989 know how to work with people as well. And if 00:57:53.989 --> 00:57:58.550 you're not training that, then you're going to 00:57:58.550 --> 00:58:03.130 select people for leadership roles that, you 00:58:03.130 --> 00:58:05.429 know, it's a big question mark as to whether 00:58:05.429 --> 00:58:07.769 or not they're going to be good leaders. And 00:58:07.769 --> 00:58:12.110 if you're a firefighter and you're looking to 00:58:12.110 --> 00:58:14.050 get promoted and there's no requirements for 00:58:14.050 --> 00:58:16.070 leadership training, that doesn't mean that you 00:58:16.070 --> 00:58:18.329 can't still do it. It doesn't mean that you can't 00:58:18.329 --> 00:58:20.570 still learn. You just take it upon yourself. 00:58:21.329 --> 00:58:24.349 And gain influence and become chief and put in 00:58:24.349 --> 00:58:27.630 leadership training requirements. Absolutely. 00:58:28.050 --> 00:58:29.690 All right. Well, let's talk about the book then. 00:58:29.789 --> 00:58:32.630 So you mentioned about kind of doing little parts. 00:58:32.710 --> 00:58:34.369 That's kind of how my first book came together. 00:58:34.409 --> 00:58:36.650 It was blog posts that I put. And then I realized, 00:58:36.710 --> 00:58:38.789 well, if I start writing more, there will be 00:58:38.789 --> 00:58:41.630 a book eventually. What made you even put pen 00:58:41.630 --> 00:58:43.710 to paper the first time and then talk to me about 00:58:43.710 --> 00:58:47.369 how that kind of evolved to actually the book 00:58:47.369 --> 00:58:50.829 that I've got on my desk now? Man, I don't know 00:58:50.829 --> 00:58:54.889 what made me start putting pen to paper originally 00:58:54.889 --> 00:58:57.010 besides the fact that I would just have thoughts. 00:58:57.449 --> 00:59:00.690 I would just have a thought. I think that was 00:59:00.690 --> 00:59:02.449 probably as early as being in physical therapy. 00:59:02.469 --> 00:59:04.469 I would just have a thought. I've always had 00:59:04.469 --> 00:59:08.469 – think about it before. I've always had just 00:59:08.469 --> 00:59:11.610 thoughts pop into my head, philosophical thoughts. 00:59:12.210 --> 00:59:15.250 And usually when I was younger, when I was in 00:59:15.250 --> 00:59:18.210 college, in high school and – early on in the 00:59:18.210 --> 00:59:20.170 Marine Corps, they would mostly be standup comedy 00:59:20.170 --> 00:59:22.909 jokes that I would think about. Like I watched 00:59:22.909 --> 00:59:24.670 a lot of standup comedy. So I just have a thought 00:59:24.670 --> 00:59:27.369 about various things. I would hear something 00:59:27.369 --> 00:59:29.329 on the news and I would, it would, I would start 00:59:29.329 --> 00:59:31.070 thinking about it and it would form itself into 00:59:31.070 --> 00:59:34.230 a standup comedy bit. So I would just write those 00:59:34.230 --> 00:59:37.269 things down. I would just wrote it down in a, 00:59:37.269 --> 00:59:41.630 in a notepad. And eventually, you know, I would 00:59:41.630 --> 00:59:43.909 come back to it and try and flesh it out a little 00:59:43.909 --> 00:59:48.039 bit. But then in physical therapy, I started 00:59:48.039 --> 00:59:52.739 having more philosophical life thoughts. And 00:59:52.739 --> 00:59:54.239 it's the same exact thing. I would just have 00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:56.940 it and it would resonate with me. And I didn't 00:59:56.940 --> 00:59:59.280 want to lose it because it made sense. I would 00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:02.619 have the thought and I would go, yeah, I like 01:00:02.619 --> 01:00:05.000 that. That's a good thought to have. And so instead 01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:06.639 of just letting it disappear into the ether, 01:00:06.699 --> 01:00:10.039 I would just write it down in a notepad on my 01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:11.900 computer. I would just write the thought down. 01:00:12.670 --> 01:00:14.070 And then if it was something that was really 01:00:14.070 --> 01:00:15.590 powerful, I would just come back to it eventually. 01:00:15.670 --> 01:00:19.130 And I would just start typing things up. And 01:00:19.130 --> 01:00:21.150 part of it too, is that I had been asked to speak 01:00:21.150 --> 01:00:23.369 at, you know, veterans day. And so that, that 01:00:23.369 --> 01:00:26.829 got me writing a little bit, a speech. And then 01:00:26.829 --> 01:00:28.369 I would just, I, every now and then I would get 01:00:28.369 --> 01:00:30.710 asked to talk to a class or something like that. 01:00:30.750 --> 01:00:32.329 And I would have to figure out something to say 01:00:32.329 --> 01:00:34.389 to them. So I just started doing that more and 01:00:34.389 --> 01:00:36.889 more, but I just, I was just having thoughts. 01:00:37.010 --> 01:00:39.429 And so, and a lot of times, well, when you're 01:00:39.429 --> 01:00:42.480 writing about a thought, You have a life experience 01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:44.420 that kind of goes hand in hand with that thought. 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:46.940 So you might, as you're fleshing out that thought, 01:00:47.019 --> 01:00:49.019 you would write a little bit about your experience 01:00:49.019 --> 01:00:50.440 that led to it. And then you write about the 01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:51.800 thought and then you'd conclude. I mean, that's 01:00:51.800 --> 01:00:55.760 kind of how I was doing it. And so I just did 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:58.320 that a little bit, not with really the intention 01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:04.320 of writing a memoir necessarily. But, you know, 01:01:04.340 --> 01:01:06.840 maybe I might want it for a speech one day or 01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:13.519 just to have. Then eventually after the Paralympics, 01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:15.239 I started thinking, well, maybe there's enough 01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:18.800 here to be in some sort of a book. Also, when 01:01:18.800 --> 01:01:21.400 you're training for the Paralympics, you train 01:01:21.400 --> 01:01:23.400 twice a day, and then you have a lot of downtime 01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:25.119 in between, so you kind of need something to 01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:28.420 do. So I started writing. Then also my rowing 01:01:28.420 --> 01:01:31.039 coach, he had written a book called Assault on 01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:33.440 Lake Casitas. So I really admired him, and I 01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:35.159 kind of wanted to be like him too, so I wanted 01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:39.650 to write my own little memoir. But I wasn't really 01:01:39.650 --> 01:01:42.010 doing it in what I would call a serious fashion 01:01:42.010 --> 01:01:43.690 at that point. I would just write from time to 01:01:43.690 --> 01:01:48.210 time. But then I didn't start really writing 01:01:48.210 --> 01:01:52.250 in earnest until that 2020 because I had done 01:01:52.250 --> 01:01:55.769 a lot of other things since then. What was that 01:01:55.769 --> 01:01:59.570 process like for you? A lot of people, when they're 01:01:59.570 --> 01:02:02.590 writing about their history, it's very cathartic. 01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:06.059 My own personal experience, sometimes it can 01:02:06.059 --> 01:02:07.719 just be really freaking hard trying to write 01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:11.980 a book as well. It is hard to write a book. I 01:02:11.980 --> 01:02:15.079 wish I was like Jocko where I could just easily 01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:18.119 bust out a thousand words in an hour or less. 01:02:19.059 --> 01:02:26.340 I'm not that prolific. But for me, one of the 01:02:26.340 --> 01:02:30.360 first things I had to do was figure out what 01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:35.429 is my... what my hero's journey was. Because 01:02:35.429 --> 01:02:39.429 this is a memoir. This isn't like a how -to book 01:02:39.429 --> 01:02:40.909 or anything like that. This is a memoir. It's 01:02:40.909 --> 01:02:45.170 a story. And I remember early on, I didn't really 01:02:45.170 --> 01:02:46.650 know what I was doing. I was writing a book. 01:02:46.690 --> 01:02:49.190 I found this book called The Story Grid because 01:02:49.190 --> 01:02:52.670 the editor who wrote that book edited my favorite 01:02:52.670 --> 01:02:57.829 book, which was Gates of Fire. And so I read 01:02:57.829 --> 01:03:00.500 his book about how to write a story. And there 01:03:00.500 --> 01:03:02.739 was all this stuff in it that was extremely beneficial 01:03:02.739 --> 01:03:05.420 to me and extremely informative. Like every story 01:03:05.420 --> 01:03:09.360 has a genre. Every genre has certain required 01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:12.820 scenes that have to be in it in order for that 01:03:12.820 --> 01:03:17.860 story to be satisfying for the reader. There's 01:03:17.860 --> 01:03:18.940 a lot of other stuff, but that's kind of the 01:03:18.940 --> 01:03:21.559 main part of it. And then also all the stories, 01:03:21.699 --> 01:03:23.460 all the effective stories have to follow the 01:03:23.460 --> 01:03:25.760 hero's journey. So I had to sit back and go, 01:03:25.860 --> 01:03:28.440 well, what is my life? What is the genre of my 01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:31.869 story? And what are all these different components 01:03:31.869 --> 01:03:34.710 of my story? And the challenge with it too was 01:03:34.710 --> 01:03:37.989 that most fiction books, people just make it 01:03:37.989 --> 01:03:40.929 up. So they can just have all these – they just 01:03:40.929 --> 01:03:44.010 have to figure out what it is. But me, I had 01:03:44.010 --> 01:03:46.909 to reverse engineer it after something that's 01:03:46.909 --> 01:03:51.110 already happened. So I had to go back and reverse 01:03:51.110 --> 01:03:54.469 engineer all these different aspects like who's 01:03:54.469 --> 01:04:00.179 my antagonist? Who's the – Who's the mentor? 01:04:00.300 --> 01:04:01.880 Who's all these different things? What's this 01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:03.500 moment? What's this moment? So I had to go back 01:04:03.500 --> 01:04:05.719 and reverse engineer all that stuff. And that 01:04:05.719 --> 01:04:07.639 took some figuring out. That took some time to 01:04:07.639 --> 01:04:09.980 figure out what all those parts were. But once 01:04:09.980 --> 01:04:12.579 I did, then I could start writing out the scenes 01:04:12.579 --> 01:04:15.360 that I needed to have and then add scenes in 01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:19.239 between. But then the writing of the scenes was 01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:20.940 also hard too because I was trying to write dialogue. 01:04:21.139 --> 01:04:24.239 And I don't remember exactly what people said 01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:26.340 in all these different conversations. So I would 01:04:26.340 --> 01:04:28.340 kind of have to figure out how to write the dialogue. 01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:32.739 I didn't remember the words everybody was saying, 01:04:32.780 --> 01:04:34.840 but what I remembered was the overall feeling 01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:37.099 of the conversation. What was the result of that 01:04:37.099 --> 01:04:39.800 conversation? So I tried to craft the words in 01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:42.039 an interesting way that exemplified that feeling. 01:04:43.420 --> 01:04:45.659 So that was the hard part for me. And going back 01:04:45.659 --> 01:04:48.019 and just really trying to remember what was going 01:04:48.019 --> 01:04:51.119 on and describing it and doing it in a way that 01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:54.820 was going to be fun to read for people. It's 01:04:54.820 --> 01:04:58.250 hard to do. Steven Pressfield, who wrote Gates 01:04:58.250 --> 01:05:01.329 of Fire, wrote a book and it's fallen out my 01:05:01.329 --> 01:05:03.449 head, but it's an incredible book on how to write 01:05:03.449 --> 01:05:06.769 a book. And he talks about the resistance. The 01:05:06.769 --> 01:05:09.130 closer you get to being finished with something, 01:05:09.269 --> 01:05:11.889 the harder it is to complete it. And I've just 01:05:11.889 --> 01:05:15.429 had that with a website put together to propose 01:05:15.429 --> 01:05:18.429 my book becoming into a TV show. And the last 01:05:18.429 --> 01:05:20.010 few days were a nightmare. They were a pain in 01:05:20.010 --> 01:05:23.369 the ass. Did you find that same thing as you 01:05:23.369 --> 01:05:25.250 got closer to completion? Did it seem like it 01:05:25.250 --> 01:05:28.690 got harder towards the end? I think the book 01:05:28.690 --> 01:05:30.269 you're talking about is the war of art, but he 01:05:30.269 --> 01:05:34.010 also did another one about that's even more about 01:05:34.010 --> 01:05:38.130 writing books specifically, which I forget the 01:05:38.130 --> 01:05:40.010 title of, but that's a good, another one that 01:05:40.010 --> 01:05:42.110 I read. Oh, it's nobody wants to read your shit 01:05:42.110 --> 01:05:43.940 or something like that. Okay. Yeah. The war of 01:05:43.940 --> 01:05:45.420 art was the one I was referring to though. So, 01:05:45.460 --> 01:05:47.039 you know, war of art is that one, but that's 01:05:47.039 --> 01:05:49.440 about just pursuing your purpose in life. And 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:51.059 then nobody wants to read your shit is about 01:05:51.059 --> 01:05:53.159 writing books. Okay. I need to get, I read that 01:05:53.159 --> 01:06:00.699 one too late though. Um, I don't know if it got 01:06:00.699 --> 01:06:03.139 harder towards the end. It definitely got harder 01:06:03.139 --> 01:06:05.940 in that I was, I was kind of just ready to be 01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:08.760 done. So that's hard to maintain the same kind 01:06:08.760 --> 01:06:12.659 of, uh, intensity. when you've done five when 01:06:12.659 --> 01:06:14.699 it's your fifth draft you know and you still 01:06:14.699 --> 01:06:16.760 need to keep making sure you have an open mind 01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:22.139 and keep it as fresh as possible uh other hard 01:06:22.139 --> 01:06:24.440 aspects of it was you know i had to chop things 01:06:24.440 --> 01:06:26.820 out so being able to let go of certain things 01:06:26.820 --> 01:06:29.420 and figure out what i needed to keep that was 01:06:29.420 --> 01:06:33.500 that was a challenge for sure and then also When 01:06:33.500 --> 01:06:35.579 you start working with a publisher, there's other 01:06:35.579 --> 01:06:37.699 people that have an opinion. It's just being 01:06:37.699 --> 01:06:39.960 able to detach from your own perspective on it 01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:41.840 and this baby that you've created, you've spent 01:06:41.840 --> 01:06:45.079 years making, and being able to truthfully evaluate 01:06:45.079 --> 01:06:48.019 what those people were saying and sometimes do 01:06:48.019 --> 01:06:49.639 what they said, even though it meant going in 01:06:49.639 --> 01:06:51.940 a different direction than what you might want. 01:06:52.539 --> 01:06:54.880 But the writing didn't become harder for me, 01:06:54.940 --> 01:06:59.239 but those other aspects definitely were challenging. 01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:03.130 What about catharsis? Did you find any? therapeutic 01:07:03.130 --> 01:07:05.489 element of reliving these stories and putting 01:07:05.489 --> 01:07:08.769 them on paper? I didn't find any catharsis in 01:07:08.769 --> 01:07:11.190 it. I think I had already gotten past it at that 01:07:11.190 --> 01:07:13.050 point. I'd talked about it enough, done enough 01:07:13.050 --> 01:07:15.590 interviews, thought about it, you know, all those 01:07:15.590 --> 01:07:17.610 different things. And I didn't really need, I 01:07:17.610 --> 01:07:19.030 didn't, I wasn't really a person that required 01:07:19.030 --> 01:07:22.230 tons of catharsis to begin with. So I think, 01:07:22.250 --> 01:07:25.570 I don't think it was cathartic for me. Uh, and 01:07:25.570 --> 01:07:27.210 then I was able to let go of things I was holding 01:07:27.210 --> 01:07:31.329 onto. Uh, It was cathartic in that I got to be 01:07:31.329 --> 01:07:32.909 done with the book that I've been trying to write 01:07:32.909 --> 01:07:35.789 for all these years. So that was nice. But I 01:07:35.789 --> 01:07:38.570 don't think it was particularly therapeutic for 01:07:38.570 --> 01:07:43.900 me from a psychological level. And what about 01:07:43.900 --> 01:07:46.440 mental health? You know, when you were a young 01:07:46.440 --> 01:07:48.340 man, as you said, you got into the Marines, you 01:07:48.340 --> 01:07:50.400 fell in love with Marines, you know, you had 01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:53.179 that trajectory changed, you know, whether you 01:07:53.179 --> 01:07:55.599 liked it or not. Now you find yourself on the 01:07:55.599 --> 01:07:57.460 other side, still connected, but not wearing 01:07:57.460 --> 01:07:59.380 the uniform, not able to serve in that capacity 01:07:59.380 --> 01:08:02.320 anymore. So, you know, we know the transition 01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:04.940 can be jarring from people that just simply transition 01:08:04.940 --> 01:08:07.789 out. They're not even wounded. What has been 01:08:07.789 --> 01:08:10.090 your mental health journey leading up to today? 01:08:10.230 --> 01:08:12.610 Have you had some high highs and some low lows? 01:08:12.750 --> 01:08:15.530 And if so, what have you used to navigate those? 01:08:16.630 --> 01:08:19.069 I wouldn't necessarily say that I had low lows. 01:08:20.310 --> 01:08:25.310 I think the thing that I struggled with the most 01:08:25.310 --> 01:08:28.109 was I did all these really cool things, but I 01:08:28.109 --> 01:08:35.979 really struggled to figure out. what I say, to 01:08:35.979 --> 01:08:40.640 figure out something that felt like it had a 01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:44.819 purpose behind it that I really believed in. 01:08:45.619 --> 01:08:49.340 And so when I was in the Marine Corps, I completely 01:08:49.340 --> 01:08:52.779 believed in the purpose, which was, you know, 01:08:52.779 --> 01:08:55.899 go fight terrorists and, you know, take care 01:08:55.899 --> 01:08:58.420 of your fellow Marines. And then when I retired. 01:08:59.170 --> 01:09:01.050 The Paralympics was awesome, and I'm so glad 01:09:01.050 --> 01:09:02.989 I did it. I had a great rowing partner named 01:09:02.989 --> 01:09:05.109 Oksana who's gone on to do really great things. 01:09:05.689 --> 01:09:09.109 But the whole time I did rowing, I didn't feel 01:09:09.109 --> 01:09:13.989 like I felt out of place a little bit. I kind 01:09:13.989 --> 01:09:16.590 of just knew in the back of my mind that it wasn't 01:09:16.590 --> 01:09:18.989 going to be a long -term thing for me because 01:09:18.989 --> 01:09:22.890 I couldn't figure out what's the greater purpose 01:09:22.890 --> 01:09:24.569 in this besides I'm going to go and I'm going 01:09:24.569 --> 01:09:29.850 to win a race and I'm going to look cool. Rowing, 01:09:29.949 --> 01:09:31.829 I knew was just going to be limited. It wasn't 01:09:31.829 --> 01:09:36.329 where I needed to be. That's kind of why I retired 01:09:36.329 --> 01:09:38.869 from rowing and went on to the next thing, which 01:09:38.869 --> 01:09:41.909 was my bike ride across the country. Even during 01:09:41.909 --> 01:09:46.369 that, I still felt unsettled. I was raising money 01:09:46.369 --> 01:09:51.250 for veteran charity, sure, but I still felt a 01:09:51.250 --> 01:09:52.890 little bit unsettled during that. That was a 01:09:52.890 --> 01:09:54.390 little bit more confusing. I didn't know why 01:09:54.390 --> 01:09:58.310 that didn't feel completely fulfilling. Because 01:09:58.310 --> 01:10:02.210 I was raising money for veteran charities. And 01:10:02.210 --> 01:10:04.109 then also the whole time, people would keep asking 01:10:04.109 --> 01:10:07.970 me to speak. I would get into a town, and there 01:10:07.970 --> 01:10:09.329 would be a reception, and the reception would 01:10:09.329 --> 01:10:11.930 say, and now Rob is going to say a few words. 01:10:12.029 --> 01:10:15.770 And I didn't want to say any words. I just wanted 01:10:15.770 --> 01:10:18.710 to ride my bike. That's all I was there to do. 01:10:19.289 --> 01:10:22.010 Ride my bike, and here's my donation link if 01:10:22.010 --> 01:10:23.430 you want to donate. I don't want to tell you 01:10:23.430 --> 01:10:28.989 what to do. That's kind of how I saw it. And 01:10:28.989 --> 01:10:30.829 then I tried to make the Paralympics again for 01:10:30.829 --> 01:10:33.710 triathlon and, you know, didn't work out. But 01:10:33.710 --> 01:10:37.850 I kind of realized shortly after that, after 01:10:37.850 --> 01:10:40.310 I quit on that, you know, what was going on at 01:10:40.310 --> 01:10:44.569 the end of the bike ride. And it was that I had 01:10:44.569 --> 01:10:49.329 been denying this intrinsic need that I had and 01:10:49.329 --> 01:10:52.229 that all people have, which is to be a leader. 01:10:52.670 --> 01:10:56.090 the the intrinsic need to lead as my my boss 01:10:56.090 --> 01:10:59.170 dave burke wrote out in his book so we all have 01:10:59.170 --> 01:11:01.229 the need to lead and that's what i realized that's 01:11:01.229 --> 01:11:05.289 why both those things didn't didn't feel fulfilling 01:11:05.289 --> 01:11:07.649 it's because i wasn't i wasn't leading i was 01:11:07.649 --> 01:11:10.189 i was actually denying the opportunity and the 01:11:10.189 --> 01:11:14.430 the call to lead and when i realized that i kind 01:11:14.430 --> 01:11:16.789 of realized that at the same time as i recognized 01:11:16.789 --> 01:11:21.100 this whole thing i write about in the book about 01:11:21.100 --> 01:11:24.859 how I just noticed that every veteran, it seemed 01:11:24.859 --> 01:11:26.699 like the perception of veterans had been shifting 01:11:26.699 --> 01:11:31.119 from being strong heroes to broken heroes. I 01:11:31.119 --> 01:11:34.260 don't know if you can name me a movie where when 01:11:34.260 --> 01:11:36.199 the veteran gets home from war, they're not crazy 01:11:36.199 --> 01:11:41.800 or they're not on the cusp of implosion. It doesn't 01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:43.939 exist. Every veteran character is a thousand 01:11:43.939 --> 01:11:47.270 -yard stare. Every single one. And I didn't like 01:11:47.270 --> 01:11:49.350 how that was the perception that was starting 01:11:49.350 --> 01:11:51.850 to formulate around veterans, even if it came 01:11:51.850 --> 01:11:55.069 from kind of a good place. I didn't like it because 01:11:55.069 --> 01:11:56.390 it didn't represent me and it didn't represent 01:11:56.390 --> 01:11:58.270 the vast majority of my friends or the vast majority 01:11:58.270 --> 01:12:01.229 of veterans. And so I saw that issue. I recognized 01:12:01.229 --> 01:12:04.050 that I had an intrinsic need to lead and I wasn't 01:12:04.050 --> 01:12:07.029 doing it. And then the month of marathons popped 01:12:07.029 --> 01:12:10.149 into my head or just the idea of running a bunch 01:12:10.149 --> 01:12:13.250 of marathons popped into my head. And it clicked. 01:12:13.470 --> 01:12:15.149 And I'm like, that's what I got to do. I have 01:12:15.149 --> 01:12:17.430 to take ownership of this problem. I have to 01:12:17.430 --> 01:12:20.250 lead. And it's going to be even better because 01:12:20.250 --> 01:12:22.449 I get to do it in a way that really resonates 01:12:22.449 --> 01:12:25.090 with me that I enjoy, which is these physical, 01:12:25.229 --> 01:12:27.170 these big endurance challenges, pushing myself 01:12:27.170 --> 01:12:31.369 to the absolute limit. And maybe if I run all 01:12:31.369 --> 01:12:33.710 these marathons, I can just put a story out about 01:12:33.710 --> 01:12:36.710 there about how it's not necessarily a guarantee 01:12:36.710 --> 01:12:39.409 that you're just going to go experience one of 01:12:39.409 --> 01:12:45.680 them become a basket case. Absolutely. With that 01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:48.939 being said, because I think this is the same 01:12:48.939 --> 01:12:50.340 with the first responder profession. I've actually 01:12:50.340 --> 01:12:53.399 been talking a lot recently about reframing this 01:12:53.399 --> 01:12:55.420 whole conversation. If we're going to talk about 01:12:55.420 --> 01:12:57.739 first responder physical or mental health, let's 01:12:57.739 --> 01:13:00.520 talk about performance. Because even if someone 01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:02.819 is struggling, it's actually the same tools. 01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:05.460 If you want to be in a flow state in a firefight, 01:13:05.659 --> 01:13:07.399 if I want to be in a flow state looking for a 01:13:07.399 --> 01:13:10.630 child in a second floor bedroom. I need to have 01:13:10.630 --> 01:13:13.670 that calm mind. I need to have a fit body. So 01:13:13.670 --> 01:13:16.750 framing it differently and giving the hope, because 01:13:16.750 --> 01:13:18.529 this is the same with medical retirement. Well, 01:13:18.590 --> 01:13:20.350 I've got 100 % disability, but I'm not allowed 01:13:20.350 --> 01:13:22.770 to have a job now. There's a guy trying to take 01:13:22.770 --> 01:13:24.710 pictures of me if I pick my kid up, et cetera, 01:13:24.770 --> 01:13:27.550 et cetera. It is a very destructive way of looking 01:13:27.550 --> 01:13:32.130 at it. So I think reframing it with the post 01:13:32.130 --> 01:13:35.470 -traumatic growth, the U2 .0 after the stuff 01:13:35.470 --> 01:13:37.210 that you've been through and working through 01:13:37.210 --> 01:13:39.369 it, whether it's rehabbing a back injury or... 01:13:39.710 --> 01:13:43.390 working through mental trauma the the excitement 01:13:43.390 --> 01:13:46.550 that the other side of this is and you're a perfect 01:13:46.550 --> 01:13:50.069 example rob in 2026 now all of a sudden you've 01:13:50.069 --> 01:13:52.909 got that person that was just blown up has that 01:13:52.909 --> 01:13:55.270 to look forward to has that to aim for rather 01:13:55.270 --> 01:13:57.569 than like you said the kind of you know born 01:13:57.569 --> 01:14:01.710 on the fourth of july you know captain don vietnam 01:14:01.710 --> 01:14:06.609 vet you represent it with yeah i mean yeah post 01:14:06.609 --> 01:14:08.409 -traumatic growth exact post -traumatic leadership 01:14:09.279 --> 01:14:11.720 You know what I mean? That's what we're really 01:14:11.720 --> 01:14:14.880 trying to do, not just grow, but also lead other 01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:19.000 people. Because even when I tell the story about 01:14:19.000 --> 01:14:26.020 the pirate hat when I first got back home, even 01:14:26.020 --> 01:14:29.520 then, and I wasn't actively saying, oh, I need 01:14:29.520 --> 01:14:31.699 to lead in this situation. I was just thinking 01:14:31.699 --> 01:14:33.819 about how I could help other people. I was thinking 01:14:33.819 --> 01:14:36.020 about how I could help my mom. But that's leadership. 01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:38.510 How can you support the team? How can you support 01:14:38.510 --> 01:14:40.029 the people that you care about? That is leadership. 01:14:40.109 --> 01:14:41.810 That's what cover and move is. That's the fundamental 01:14:41.810 --> 01:14:44.949 thing that we teach about teamwork. It's the 01:14:44.949 --> 01:14:49.069 most fundamental thing in leadership is how can 01:14:49.069 --> 01:14:52.890 I help the team? And you can help people even 01:14:52.890 --> 01:14:54.890 when you have been traumatized by something. 01:14:54.989 --> 01:14:57.069 There's always something that you can do. I say 01:14:57.069 --> 01:14:58.350 this in my muster brief. There's always something 01:14:58.350 --> 01:15:00.470 that you can do to help the people around you, 01:15:00.550 --> 01:15:02.250 to help the people that you care about. That 01:15:02.250 --> 01:15:04.109 is what facilitates growth, and that is what 01:15:04.109 --> 01:15:07.819 leadership is all about. So yeah, post -traumatic 01:15:07.819 --> 01:15:10.720 leadership. And at the same time too, I don't 01:15:10.720 --> 01:15:16.180 want to necessarily – I'm not trying to say that 01:15:16.180 --> 01:15:18.020 there aren't people that do legitimately struggle 01:15:18.020 --> 01:15:22.340 from traumatic events. It does happen. With the 01:15:22.340 --> 01:15:23.920 month of marathons, I just wanted to point out 01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:27.199 to people that that's not the only thing. It's 01:15:27.199 --> 01:15:29.819 not the only possibility. In fact, the vast majority 01:15:29.819 --> 01:15:32.380 of the time, it's not what happens. So I just 01:15:32.380 --> 01:15:33.979 wanted to make sure that people were aware that 01:15:33.979 --> 01:15:36.020 there are two sides. There are two things that 01:15:36.020 --> 01:15:37.619 can happen. There's more than one thing. It's 01:15:37.619 --> 01:15:41.560 not just war, traumatized, broken individual. 01:15:42.340 --> 01:15:44.279 Yeah. Well, even I mean, I've heard so many, 01:15:44.279 --> 01:15:47.239 so many VA stories when it comes to mental health 01:15:47.239 --> 01:15:49.680 and the tools that are being given, not saying 01:15:49.680 --> 01:15:51.619 that the people in the system don't have good 01:15:51.619 --> 01:15:54.279 intentions, but the system itself, you know, 01:15:54.279 --> 01:15:56.840 it's prescribing meds, it's talk therapy at best, 01:15:56.859 --> 01:15:58.739 you know, and then we've got, you know, psychedelics 01:15:58.739 --> 01:16:00.319 and equine therapy and things over here that 01:16:00.319 --> 01:16:02.000 are working really well. And it's, you know. 01:16:02.779 --> 01:16:04.819 It's getting people to have the hope that they 01:16:04.819 --> 01:16:07.000 can heal because, you know, a number of times 01:16:07.000 --> 01:16:10.460 I've heard in the fire service side, the kind 01:16:10.460 --> 01:16:13.979 of EAP Russian roulette, we call it, where they're 01:16:13.979 --> 01:16:17.000 given a generic list of therapists and they go 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:18.739 and they sit with them and the therapist is in 01:16:18.739 --> 01:16:20.340 tears and they say they can't help them and they 01:16:20.340 --> 01:16:22.859 walk out. And some of them got to tell me on 01:16:22.859 --> 01:16:24.539 the show how many didn't because that was the 01:16:24.539 --> 01:16:27.199 final nail in the coffin. You know, so giving 01:16:27.199 --> 01:16:29.800 hope, even if people are struggling, it's like 01:16:29.800 --> 01:16:31.939 everyone's holding on to a piece of rope that 01:16:31.939 --> 01:16:34.439 the good end people are doing really well on 01:16:34.439 --> 01:16:36.720 the bad end. People are really struggling. But 01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:38.739 if you pull the rope, everyone moves the right 01:16:38.739 --> 01:16:40.920 direction, including the one who's almost in 01:16:40.920 --> 01:16:44.039 the pit. So whereas if it's a doom and gloom, 01:16:44.060 --> 01:16:46.359 you know, shoulder shrugging conversation, then, 01:16:46.380 --> 01:16:47.800 you know, there's a lot of people that are going 01:16:47.800 --> 01:16:50.760 to fall through the cracks. Yeah, well, I mean, 01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:53.000 the more the more people hear about veterans 01:16:53.000 --> 01:16:57.140 or first responders that. overcome trauma uh 01:16:57.140 --> 01:17:00.220 the more people will believe it's possible for 01:17:00.220 --> 01:17:03.159 people they know and and for themselves and then 01:17:03.159 --> 01:17:04.619 when they find out about the story they can go 01:17:04.619 --> 01:17:06.560 what did that guy do that's why so many people 01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:09.260 can overcome you know alcoholism and drug addiction 01:17:09.260 --> 01:17:11.500 all these things because tons of people have 01:17:11.500 --> 01:17:12.979 done it and they've created a program called 01:17:12.979 --> 01:17:14.760 alcoholics anonymous that has a step -by -step 01:17:14.760 --> 01:17:17.680 program that you can follow and so yeah if you 01:17:18.380 --> 01:17:20.000 if you are struggling with that kind of thing 01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:21.880 you need to take ownership of making sure that 01:17:21.880 --> 01:17:23.479 you get healed and one of the ways you can do 01:17:23.479 --> 01:17:25.380 that is to go see what other people have done 01:17:25.380 --> 01:17:29.300 and the more stories like you know mine and like 01:17:29.300 --> 01:17:31.960 people that have overcome things uh the more 01:17:31.960 --> 01:17:33.960 stories like that get out there the more hope 01:17:33.960 --> 01:17:35.600 people will have and if you believe that you 01:17:35.600 --> 01:17:36.819 can make it happen then you're going to keep 01:17:36.819 --> 01:17:39.319 trying until you make it happen and it's really 01:17:39.319 --> 01:17:43.199 awesome that even though there's these uh it's 01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:44.500 awesome to see that even though there are these 01:17:44.500 --> 01:17:48.130 gaps in coverage with the va and with uh first 01:17:48.130 --> 01:17:51.449 responder you know uh i guess government organizations 01:17:51.449 --> 01:17:56.250 that are responsible for uh you know ongoing 01:17:56.250 --> 01:18:01.090 what what disability uh compensation for first 01:18:01.090 --> 01:18:03.210 responders i don't know if it probably doesn't 01:18:03.210 --> 01:18:04.789 exactly work the same way as the military but 01:18:04.789 --> 01:18:07.069 that kind of thing even though there are gaps 01:18:07.069 --> 01:18:09.130 there there's all sorts of people that are taking 01:18:09.130 --> 01:18:12.390 ownership of filling those gaps like you know 01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:16.380 non -veteran non -profits like Semper Fi Fund 01:18:16.380 --> 01:18:19.439 or Tom and the Towers that we you know we met 01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:20.819 at there's people that are filling those gaps 01:18:20.819 --> 01:18:24.899 uh there's people that are sending people down 01:18:24.899 --> 01:18:26.899 to you know whatever Mexico or wherever they're 01:18:26.899 --> 01:18:28.359 going to do psychedelic treatment so there's 01:18:28.359 --> 01:18:30.279 people that are taking ownership of that and 01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:33.000 making it happen even though you know we have 01:18:33.000 --> 01:18:34.760 roadblocks in the way and that's what taking 01:18:34.760 --> 01:18:36.539 ownership is all about is just figuring out how 01:18:36.539 --> 01:18:39.600 to make it happen Well, that's a perfect segue 01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:41.100 for the last thing I want to talk about before 01:18:41.100 --> 01:18:45.319 we go to some closing questions. Classic example, 01:18:45.460 --> 01:18:48.020 I talk about this a lot, Purdue Pharma, OxyContin, 01:18:48.220 --> 01:18:52.359 FDA approved drug caused the opioid crisis that's 01:18:52.359 --> 01:18:56.420 still killing 100 ,000 Americans today. MDMA 01:18:56.420 --> 01:18:58.659 led psychotherapy recently, they tried to get 01:18:58.659 --> 01:19:03.399 it through and the FDA denied it. So with that 01:19:03.399 --> 01:19:09.390 lens and shifting it slightly, knowing that There 01:19:09.390 --> 01:19:11.210 are a lot of people that make a lot of money 01:19:11.210 --> 01:19:13.850 when Americans are sick. Drug companies, surgical 01:19:13.850 --> 01:19:16.270 implants, and then the things that make them 01:19:16.270 --> 01:19:20.470 sick, fast food, etc. And so the question is, 01:19:20.470 --> 01:19:22.989 where's the checks and balances for really forging 01:19:22.989 --> 01:19:26.130 physical health in the US? We've seen PE programs 01:19:26.130 --> 01:19:28.430 disappear, shit food served in schools, etc. 01:19:29.329 --> 01:19:32.409 Shifting that to the military side. And the moral 01:19:32.409 --> 01:19:35.229 injury, especially of a lot of our vets, you 01:19:35.229 --> 01:19:37.149 know, the way that Afghanistan ended and, you 01:19:37.149 --> 01:19:39.550 know, some of the information about Iraq, you 01:19:39.550 --> 01:19:41.449 know, after the facts, you know, was it actually 01:19:41.449 --> 01:19:43.810 correct that some of these young men and women 01:19:43.810 --> 01:19:47.250 were sent there in the first place? The responsibility 01:19:47.250 --> 01:19:52.649 of when we send our children to war is a very 01:19:52.649 --> 01:19:54.729 important concept. But if there are companies, 01:19:54.909 --> 01:19:57.050 you know, the industrial military complex that 01:19:57.050 --> 01:20:00.350 make trillions of dollars when we are at war. 01:20:00.970 --> 01:20:04.489 then where are those checks and balances to make 01:20:04.489 --> 01:20:06.729 sure that we only go to war? Obviously, World 01:20:06.729 --> 01:20:09.329 War II is a good example when absolutely necessary. 01:20:09.829 --> 01:20:12.489 So as a veteran who's obviously very, very vested 01:20:12.489 --> 01:20:16.689 in this whole thing, king for a day again, what 01:20:16.689 --> 01:20:19.069 have we got to change to make sure that our children 01:20:19.069 --> 01:20:21.050 aren't dragged into a conflict that we should 01:20:21.050 --> 01:20:25.649 never have been to in the first place? Oh man, 01:20:25.729 --> 01:20:27.750 you're asking me to solve one of the most complex 01:20:27.750 --> 01:20:33.909 issues in the entire world. If I could wave a 01:20:33.909 --> 01:20:35.970 magic wand, I would just have everybody get along. 01:20:36.970 --> 01:20:39.949 I would just eliminate the need for war entirely. 01:20:41.090 --> 01:20:44.010 I don't think even a king – that's something 01:20:44.010 --> 01:20:49.189 that only God himself could do. I mean that's 01:20:49.189 --> 01:20:51.949 a tough question, but I also still think that 01:20:51.949 --> 01:20:56.920 – From our perspective, the people that send 01:20:56.920 --> 01:20:59.340 people to war are the ones that are in charge 01:20:59.340 --> 01:21:03.520 of the military. And so the way that we affect 01:21:03.520 --> 01:21:06.859 that is be more involved, just like we talked 01:21:06.859 --> 01:21:12.539 about in the very, very beginning. Vote for people 01:21:12.539 --> 01:21:16.619 that you don't think are going to be apt to send 01:21:16.619 --> 01:21:20.539 us into war. And if they do, then you got to 01:21:20.539 --> 01:21:25.840 vote them out. You got to use your voice to try 01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:32.800 and select the people that are going to be responsible 01:21:32.800 --> 01:21:39.199 with that. Yeah, just take ownership of what 01:21:39.199 --> 01:21:44.239 you can. I mean, I don't think there's really 01:21:44.239 --> 01:21:47.560 a simple answer to that question because there's 01:21:47.560 --> 01:21:52.579 so many different layers to it. But just figure 01:21:52.579 --> 01:21:56.680 out what you can do to spend time with your own 01:21:56.680 --> 01:21:59.939 kids and raise them up to be good people. If 01:21:59.939 --> 01:22:02.180 everybody did that, that would go a long way 01:22:02.180 --> 01:22:07.979 to helping with this issue. But it's just take 01:22:07.979 --> 01:22:09.840 extreme ownership of everything in your life, 01:22:10.079 --> 01:22:14.579 really. If everybody raised their kids up to 01:22:14.579 --> 01:22:16.060 be good people, we're going to be a lot less 01:22:16.060 --> 01:22:20.140 likely to have to go to war. So I would just 01:22:20.140 --> 01:22:22.319 do the same exact thing pretty much that I did 01:22:22.319 --> 01:22:25.760 earlier, and that's just be more involved. Take 01:22:25.760 --> 01:22:29.500 more ownership of everything in your world. Put 01:22:29.500 --> 01:22:32.300 aside Netflix. Read a book. Spend more time with 01:22:32.300 --> 01:22:34.220 your kids. Figure out how to teach them better. 01:22:34.500 --> 01:22:36.279 Figure out the moral lesson that you need them 01:22:36.279 --> 01:22:39.060 to learn. Figure out how you can do that. All 01:22:39.060 --> 01:22:42.239 these different things. Just stop being distracted 01:22:42.239 --> 01:22:48.020 and get more involved so that we can all – hopefully 01:22:48.020 --> 01:22:51.680 live in peace i agree yeah man that's a big big 01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:53.880 question no but i mean it says it's complicated 01:22:53.880 --> 01:22:56.420 but it's actually not you know it's it's fundamentally 01:22:56.420 --> 01:22:58.640 very simple what we need to do and again we're 01:22:58.640 --> 01:23:01.840 talking about humanity as a whole but It goes 01:23:01.840 --> 01:23:03.520 back to what we were talking as well. If there 01:23:03.520 --> 01:23:06.340 are companies that are paying people to become 01:23:06.340 --> 01:23:08.460 president and they make weapons and uniforms 01:23:08.460 --> 01:23:11.699 and MREs and rebuilding infrastructure and bases, 01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:15.359 then that's an issue. So raising good people 01:23:15.359 --> 01:23:17.380 and having a political system that you can't 01:23:17.380 --> 01:23:21.659 buy your way into, left, right, whatever, it's 01:23:21.659 --> 01:23:23.279 an important conversation because it's not their 01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:27.130 children that we send to war, ever. I think it's 01:23:27.130 --> 01:23:29.109 an important objective, but who am I to have 01:23:29.109 --> 01:23:30.869 this conversation? That's why I always ask the 01:23:30.869 --> 01:23:32.189 veterans. They're the ones out there. They're 01:23:32.189 --> 01:23:36.350 the ones that have this. I really like Sebastian 01:23:36.350 --> 01:23:39.130 Junger in Tribe wrote about the Iroquois, and 01:23:39.130 --> 01:23:41.770 they had a leader for peacetime and a different 01:23:41.770 --> 01:23:45.329 leader for wartime. And usually the leader, I 01:23:45.329 --> 01:23:47.210 think, from the peacetime was female, and then 01:23:47.210 --> 01:23:50.380 the wartime leader was male. And I love that 01:23:50.380 --> 01:23:53.060 concept. You have diplomat, you avoid war at 01:23:53.060 --> 01:23:55.920 all costs. And then if God forbid, it's, you 01:23:55.920 --> 01:23:58.640 know, unavoidable, then you go all in and you 01:23:58.640 --> 01:24:02.119 support the warriors fully. Yeah. I mean, that's, 01:24:02.119 --> 01:24:04.479 that's the ideal. It's as a, as a last resort 01:24:04.479 --> 01:24:08.399 for sure. But how do you, yeah. How do you make 01:24:08.399 --> 01:24:10.859 that happen? It's a, when you have all sorts 01:24:10.859 --> 01:24:14.840 of different incentives and things occurring 01:24:14.840 --> 01:24:17.869 like that, really, it's just. You've got to control 01:24:17.869 --> 01:24:19.550 the things that you control that are around you, 01:24:19.609 --> 01:24:25.590 which is your family, your role, the things that 01:24:25.590 --> 01:24:28.770 you do, what you choose to do with your time. 01:24:29.250 --> 01:24:33.329 And if you want to affect that issue, do all 01:24:33.329 --> 01:24:36.590 that stuff in a way that helps with that particular 01:24:36.590 --> 01:24:39.989 thing. Absolutely. All right, well, shifting 01:24:39.989 --> 01:24:42.270 to some closing questions. We talked about your 01:24:42.270 --> 01:24:45.130 book, Put Your Legs On. Is there a book written 01:24:45.130 --> 01:24:47.529 by someone else that you love to recommend? It 01:24:47.529 --> 01:24:49.869 can be related to our discussion today or completely 01:24:49.869 --> 01:24:57.260 unrelated. Well, I mean, my... Obvious answers, 01:24:57.319 --> 01:24:59.539 considering I work for Ashland Front, is obviously 01:24:59.539 --> 01:25:01.220 going to be Extreme Ownership, The Dichotomy 01:25:01.220 --> 01:25:04.140 of Leadership, Need to Lead, written by Jocko 01:25:04.140 --> 01:25:07.079 Leif and Dave Burke. So definitely read all those 01:25:07.079 --> 01:25:10.199 three books. But I'll give you something a little 01:25:10.199 --> 01:25:15.500 bit different. There's so many books that I've 01:25:15.500 --> 01:25:21.260 read. One of my favorite books is Skeletons on 01:25:21.260 --> 01:25:25.829 the Zahara. Have you ever read Endurance? Shackleton? 01:25:26.010 --> 01:25:29.029 I own it. I just haven't had the time to read 01:25:29.029 --> 01:25:30.590 it yet because I'm finishing up. A lot of people 01:25:30.590 --> 01:25:33.369 have read Endurance, but this book, Skeletons 01:25:33.369 --> 01:25:37.050 on the Zahara, it's like that, but it's in the 01:25:37.050 --> 01:25:42.369 desert. So, you know, this ship crash lands on 01:25:42.369 --> 01:25:44.590 Western Africa. They get taken as slaves, and 01:25:44.590 --> 01:25:48.390 it's just about how the captain of the ship and 01:25:48.390 --> 01:25:50.899 all the other people. well it's about how they 01:25:50.899 --> 01:25:53.260 all survive but the captain of the ship is trying 01:25:53.260 --> 01:25:56.619 to figure out how he can get his crew back to 01:25:56.619 --> 01:26:01.659 uh back to america and he you know strikes strikes 01:26:01.659 --> 01:26:04.479 a deal with this guy gets himself bought and 01:26:04.479 --> 01:26:08.520 then he just convinces this guy i don't ruin 01:26:08.520 --> 01:26:10.619 the entire story but it convinces this guy that 01:26:10.619 --> 01:26:15.159 just bought him that if you get me to the consulate 01:26:15.159 --> 01:26:18.119 and I forget the name of the town. If you get 01:26:18.119 --> 01:26:21.640 me to the consulate in Northern Africa, the guy's 01:26:21.640 --> 01:26:23.979 my friend, and he'll pay you for it. He'll buy 01:26:23.979 --> 01:26:28.739 us from you. And he has no idea who the person 01:26:28.739 --> 01:26:31.220 is. He's never met the guy before. And the whole 01:26:31.220 --> 01:26:33.420 time, the guy that bought the captain is sitting 01:26:33.420 --> 01:26:35.300 there going, if this is a lie, I'm going to kill 01:26:35.300 --> 01:26:37.199 you and your friends. And he's like, nope, it's 01:26:37.199 --> 01:26:41.359 true. He's my best friend. He'll buy us. Then 01:26:41.359 --> 01:26:44.140 they get to right outside the town, and the guy 01:26:44.140 --> 01:26:46.859 goes, write me a letter. Give me a letter to 01:26:46.859 --> 01:26:49.000 your friend and I'm going to go and let him know 01:26:49.000 --> 01:26:51.039 what happens and we'll see if he pays you. And 01:26:51.039 --> 01:26:54.100 if it turns out it's a lie, I'm going to slit 01:26:54.100 --> 01:26:57.680 your throat. And there isn't even an American 01:26:57.680 --> 01:27:00.180 consulate. It's a British consulate. So he just 01:27:00.180 --> 01:27:02.180 writes a letter to the British consulate. Hey, 01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:06.319 we've never met. This is what happened. Please 01:27:06.319 --> 01:27:08.619 buy us. I'm sure the American government will 01:27:08.619 --> 01:27:11.439 pay you back. And he takes a letter and the guy 01:27:11.439 --> 01:27:14.479 reads the letter and he goes. All right, we'll 01:27:14.479 --> 01:27:18.079 buy you. And then he buys all the guys that are 01:27:18.079 --> 01:27:21.340 with the captain. And then most of them go home, 01:27:21.399 --> 01:27:23.619 but the captain stays and continues to go out 01:27:23.619 --> 01:27:26.220 and try and find more and more of his crew. So 01:27:26.220 --> 01:27:28.699 it's just a really good example of leadership, 01:27:28.819 --> 01:27:31.239 of sacrifice, and really just a really good example 01:27:31.239 --> 01:27:34.939 of the things that human beings can endure. And 01:27:34.939 --> 01:27:36.880 still come out the other side. I love stories 01:27:36.880 --> 01:27:41.119 where the bad guys are the good guys too. Yeah, 01:27:41.260 --> 01:27:42.880 definitely the good guys in that one, for sure. 01:27:43.799 --> 01:27:46.979 All right. What about film, television, or documentaries? 01:27:48.520 --> 01:27:51.399 Well, the obvious answers for television is going 01:27:51.399 --> 01:27:56.840 to be The Band of Brothers, The Pacific. I'm 01:27:56.840 --> 01:28:02.340 a big comedy guy. I like to laugh a lot. So anything 01:28:02.340 --> 01:28:05.420 that's a comedy, I think, would be my go -to. 01:28:05.520 --> 01:28:11.399 I just like to laugh. You started writing stand 01:28:11.399 --> 01:28:14.380 -up jokes when you were young. Now you've been 01:28:14.380 --> 01:28:16.779 taught how to be a professional speaker. Has 01:28:16.779 --> 01:28:19.880 there been any idea at all of maybe pursuing 01:28:19.880 --> 01:28:24.180 stand -up as an actual profession? I was pursuing 01:28:24.180 --> 01:28:29.340 it somewhat in 2017. I was living in Vienna, 01:28:29.439 --> 01:28:32.520 Virginia, and I was going into D .C. for open 01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:37.399 mics. And that was my plan. I was going to... 01:28:40.180 --> 01:28:42.760 I was like, this is what I want to do. I want 01:28:42.760 --> 01:28:44.720 to go be a stand -up comedian. But then I also 01:28:44.720 --> 01:28:46.199 had the idea for the month of marathons. And 01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:48.060 over time, I realized that those two things were 01:28:48.060 --> 01:28:50.460 kind of antithesis to each other. Because in 01:28:50.460 --> 01:28:52.460 order to be prepared for the month of marathons, 01:28:52.460 --> 01:28:55.880 I had to train physically and have a really good, 01:28:56.039 --> 01:28:59.479 very healthy body. And doing stand -up comedy, 01:28:59.579 --> 01:29:04.380 I kind of figured was... I had to be up all night 01:29:04.380 --> 01:29:05.899 and I didn't really feel like that was going 01:29:05.899 --> 01:29:08.600 to be conducive to training. So I decided just 01:29:08.600 --> 01:29:12.060 to do the one thing and I did the month of marathons 01:29:12.060 --> 01:29:13.779 and that kind of led to the speaking. And so 01:29:13.779 --> 01:29:15.659 that kind of led me in that direction. That being 01:29:15.659 --> 01:29:17.739 said, I use my sense of humor all the time in 01:29:17.739 --> 01:29:19.720 the, in the workshops I teach. So there's a huge 01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:24.239 component of, of laughter, of humor, of, you 01:29:24.239 --> 01:29:26.439 know, just having a fun time and enjoying everybody, 01:29:26.460 --> 01:29:29.399 enjoying yourself when I teach a keynote or when 01:29:29.399 --> 01:29:33.260 I do a workshop. So I am able to scratch that 01:29:33.260 --> 01:29:39.159 funny bone a lot during workshops. And I think 01:29:39.159 --> 01:29:40.939 it's really effective. I think one of the most 01:29:40.939 --> 01:29:43.859 effective things you can do to build a relationship 01:29:43.859 --> 01:29:45.539 with somebody quickly is to make them laugh. 01:29:46.140 --> 01:29:48.720 Because there's a little bit of awkwardness whenever 01:29:48.720 --> 01:29:50.420 you first meet somebody. And if you can make 01:29:50.420 --> 01:29:53.479 this person laugh, basically what's happening 01:29:53.479 --> 01:29:56.300 is they like you because people like people that 01:29:56.300 --> 01:29:58.319 make them laugh. But at the same time, you said 01:29:58.319 --> 01:30:00.439 a joke. they laugh at it you kind of just work 01:30:00.439 --> 01:30:03.199 together on something you work together to overcome 01:30:03.199 --> 01:30:04.779 this little bit of awkwardness and now you're 01:30:04.779 --> 01:30:07.319 kind of good friends a good example this is when 01:30:07.319 --> 01:30:09.939 you're in the elevator with somebody you can 01:30:09.939 --> 01:30:12.079 just stand there and both stare at the wall or 01:30:12.079 --> 01:30:14.720 you could crack a joke about how the elevator 01:30:14.720 --> 01:30:17.079 sucks or something and the other person laughs 01:30:17.079 --> 01:30:19.220 and now it's it's not awkward anymore now you're 01:30:19.220 --> 01:30:21.880 you're talking to each other so i think humor 01:30:21.880 --> 01:30:24.420 and laughter go a long way to building a quick 01:30:24.420 --> 01:30:26.359 relationship and that's very important when you're 01:30:26.989 --> 01:30:28.729 When you're a leadership instructor, because 01:30:28.729 --> 01:30:30.390 you're getting up in front of an audience that 01:30:30.390 --> 01:30:33.909 has no idea who you are and you have to develop 01:30:33.909 --> 01:30:35.770 a rapport with them very quickly. So I think 01:30:35.770 --> 01:30:39.289 being funny is a really good way to make that 01:30:39.289 --> 01:30:42.430 happen in a limited sense. Brilliant. That makes 01:30:42.430 --> 01:30:44.909 perfect sense. All right. Well, next question. 01:30:44.970 --> 01:30:47.010 Is there a person that you recommend to come 01:30:47.010 --> 01:30:50.069 on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first 01:30:50.069 --> 01:30:52.229 responders, military and associated professions 01:30:52.229 --> 01:30:55.880 of the world? Yeah, I mean, you had Danny on 01:30:55.880 --> 01:30:58.680 yet? Danny Zeem? I have not, no. And when you 01:30:58.680 --> 01:30:59.840 mentioned it earlier, I was like, I probably 01:30:59.840 --> 01:31:01.600 need to get Danny on if he's the firefighter 01:31:01.600 --> 01:31:06.380 in that show. Yeah, I mean, I think he'd be great. 01:31:06.739 --> 01:31:08.279 I think Danny would be great. There's a lot of 01:31:08.279 --> 01:31:11.340 people I could recommend, I guess. I mean, but 01:31:11.340 --> 01:31:14.039 that'd be my, especially since it's first responders 01:31:14.039 --> 01:31:16.279 that we're talking about. I mean, if you get 01:31:16.279 --> 01:31:19.220 Joe Rogan on, that'd be awesome. Yeah, he's coming 01:31:19.220 --> 01:31:24.189 on tomorrow. Yeah, if you get Sean Ryan, you 01:31:24.189 --> 01:31:28.130 know, all these people. No, I think Danny would 01:31:28.130 --> 01:31:30.430 be a great guest for you to have on too. And 01:31:30.430 --> 01:31:33.390 I'll let him know that I suggested you or suggested 01:31:33.390 --> 01:31:37.270 him. What about Oksana? I think I came across 01:31:37.270 --> 01:31:39.800 her. Yeah, she'd be a great guest. Because I 01:31:39.800 --> 01:31:41.819 think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think she was 01:31:41.819 --> 01:31:43.880 in the documentary The Weight of Gold as well, 01:31:43.960 --> 01:31:46.600 talking about the mental health side of it. I 01:31:46.600 --> 01:31:49.260 might be wrong, though, but I've been following 01:31:49.260 --> 01:31:51.380 her for quite a long time. Are you still in contact 01:31:51.380 --> 01:31:52.939 with her? Because she'd be another great person 01:31:52.939 --> 01:31:56.079 to get on, I think. Yeah, I've got her. Well, 01:31:56.159 --> 01:31:58.399 I have what used to be her phone number, unless 01:31:58.399 --> 01:32:00.819 she's changed it. But yeah, she wrote her own 01:32:00.819 --> 01:32:04.800 memoir called The Hard Parts, which is very powerful. 01:32:06.830 --> 01:32:10.729 Very impactful memoir. So it's got yours truly 01:32:10.729 --> 01:32:13.090 in it. A little bit of a different perspective. 01:32:13.510 --> 01:32:16.390 Her perspective on what I was like back then, 01:32:16.449 --> 01:32:19.010 which is always interesting. What's the discrepancy? 01:32:20.649 --> 01:32:22.829 Oh, I don't know. I don't know if there was a 01:32:22.829 --> 01:32:25.010 discrepancy. There's a discrepancy from what 01:32:25.010 --> 01:32:27.949 I remember myself being like. That doesn't mean 01:32:27.949 --> 01:32:29.350 that it's wrong, though. It's just not how I 01:32:29.350 --> 01:32:32.069 remember it. I think I was a little bit more... 01:32:36.190 --> 01:32:38.590 I wasn't the most open individual at that point 01:32:38.590 --> 01:32:42.869 in my life, but I, I, I think I probably, I was 01:32:42.869 --> 01:32:45.369 portrayed as a little bit more, a little bit 01:32:45.369 --> 01:32:47.310 colder, a little bit more standoffish than I 01:32:47.310 --> 01:32:49.409 remember being. But again, that's not necessarily, 01:32:49.449 --> 01:32:52.789 that doesn't mean that it was wrong because it's, 01:32:52.789 --> 01:32:55.210 it's her memoir. It's her perspective. And I 01:32:55.210 --> 01:32:56.850 only remember things from my perspective. So 01:32:56.850 --> 01:32:59.130 she could very well be a hundred percent accurate. 01:32:59.289 --> 01:33:02.770 Yeah. Or the publisher or the editor is like, 01:33:02.869 --> 01:33:04.329 yeah, you know what? Rob seems so friendly in 01:33:04.329 --> 01:33:10.289 this. We're going to change it. Yeah, I was definitely 01:33:10.289 --> 01:33:13.069 a little bit more standoffish than I would be 01:33:13.069 --> 01:33:15.689 right now because I just got out of the Marine 01:33:15.689 --> 01:33:17.630 Corps. All my friends were Marines. I didn't 01:33:17.630 --> 01:33:22.409 want to build. I didn't want to be a part of 01:33:22.409 --> 01:33:24.489 a different team. And that was part of my problem 01:33:24.489 --> 01:33:26.850 in rowing. That's something that I could have 01:33:26.850 --> 01:33:29.489 done a lot, a lot, a lot better was be a better 01:33:29.489 --> 01:33:33.729 teammate to her. So that's one of my own failures 01:33:33.729 --> 01:33:37.079 from all this stuff. was that I could have been 01:33:37.079 --> 01:33:39.840 a lot better of a teammate. That being said, 01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:42.060 I don't remember being quite as cold as, you 01:33:42.060 --> 01:33:45.699 know, in her memoir. But I'm not, you know, it's, 01:33:45.699 --> 01:33:48.859 I could very well be wrong. It's just her perspective 01:33:48.859 --> 01:33:50.939 and it's my perspective. And I just, I can only 01:33:50.939 --> 01:33:54.020 write about what I remember. Yeah. All right. 01:33:54.039 --> 01:33:56.420 Well, the last area before we go to where people 01:33:56.420 --> 01:33:58.979 can find your book and reach out to you, what 01:33:58.979 --> 01:34:04.399 do you do to decompress? What do I do to decompress? 01:34:05.619 --> 01:34:09.399 Um, I, I find that, you know, working out decompresses 01:34:09.399 --> 01:34:12.420 me cause I get to go in the gym and just, uh, 01:34:12.600 --> 01:34:14.819 listen to some music or listen to a podcast and 01:34:14.819 --> 01:34:19.500 just focus on, on that for a while. Uh, when 01:34:19.500 --> 01:34:21.340 I'm out on a run, I'll have a lot of really good 01:34:21.340 --> 01:34:23.880 thoughts when I'm out running, going out there 01:34:23.880 --> 01:34:26.279 with something in my mind. And sometimes I'll 01:34:26.279 --> 01:34:27.659 think of something, I'll stop it. I'll type it 01:34:27.659 --> 01:34:29.939 into my little, you know, note, note thing on 01:34:29.939 --> 01:34:34.119 my phone. Uh, My wife and I will sit down and 01:34:34.119 --> 01:34:38.560 watch a movie on the weekends. Just getting outside, 01:34:38.880 --> 01:34:40.979 just spending some quality time with the family 01:34:40.979 --> 01:34:44.720 is decompressing as well. Camping, that kind 01:34:44.720 --> 01:34:48.199 of stuff. Brilliant. All right. So firstly, where 01:34:48.199 --> 01:34:51.659 can people find Put Your Legs On? And then talk 01:34:51.659 --> 01:34:55.239 to me about the speaking side as well. Yeah. 01:34:56.100 --> 01:34:58.670 Put Your Legs On is on Amazon. If you want a 01:34:58.670 --> 01:35:00.989 signed copy, you have to reach out to me, maybe 01:35:00.989 --> 01:35:03.989 on Instagram at Rob Jones Journey. Let me know. 01:35:04.109 --> 01:35:08.369 I will sign. I have a stack of about 75 books 01:35:08.369 --> 01:35:10.350 behind me. I'll sign one of them and I'll send 01:35:10.350 --> 01:35:12.689 it out to you. So that's how you get a signed 01:35:12.689 --> 01:35:15.829 one. Instagram is at Rob Jones Journey. LinkedIn 01:35:15.829 --> 01:35:19.489 is at Rob Jones Journey. And then if you are 01:35:19.489 --> 01:35:21.329 interested in leadership training from me or 01:35:21.329 --> 01:35:23.250 from one of the amazing instructors at Echelon 01:35:23.250 --> 01:35:26.529 Front, that is echelonfront .com. Instagram is 01:35:26.529 --> 01:35:30.060 at Echelon Front. LinkedIn, same thing. Brilliant. 01:35:30.399 --> 01:35:32.899 Well, I want to thank you again. The first time, 01:35:32.920 --> 01:35:35.100 obviously, we led through a lot of the things 01:35:35.100 --> 01:35:36.840 that we've kind of skirted over this time, but 01:35:36.840 --> 01:35:39.739 such an incredible conversation. But to revisit 01:35:39.739 --> 01:35:41.899 and then get a little bit more philosophical 01:35:41.899 --> 01:35:43.800 about your journey and some of your perspectives 01:35:43.800 --> 01:35:46.479 and what you're doing now has been amazing. So 01:35:46.479 --> 01:35:48.520 I want to thank you so much for being so generous 01:35:48.520 --> 01:35:50.319 with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield 01:35:50.319 --> 01:35:52.479 podcast today. Thanks, James. Appreciate it, 01:35:52.500 --> 01:35:52.579 brother.