Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome back onto
the show marine veteran, adaptive athlete, and
author of Put Your Legs On, Rob Jones. Now, in
this second conversation, we discuss a host of
topics from his experience through the pandemic,
climbing one world trade, competing in the Paralympics,
farming, fatherhood. leadership, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
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So with that being said... I welcome back onto
the show Rob Jones. Enjoy. Well, Rob, I want
to start by saying. welcome back the first time
we sat down was episode 67 which was january
2018 so eight years ago now it's crazy wow yeah
it's incredible now we've seen each other at
world trade which we'll get to uh recently echelon
front um but uh i want to start talking about
um your experience during the pandemic and the
reason i say that With this whole conversation,
wherever people stood in the very kind of polarizing
conversations that were going on there, as we
emerged out the back end, there were some incredibly
important lessons that were disregarded that
I think it's irresponsible not to revisit. And
I'm talking about the health of the nation, et
cetera, et cetera. So you were on a farm by that
point. So what was your unique pandemic experience?
My unique pandemic experience started, I was
actually running for Congress or I wasn't even
running for Congress yet. I was running for the
Republican nomination to run for Congress in
my district. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot
that you can go into about that. It's probably
a whole podcast, but ultimately I didn't win
that race. And I was, even though I was. I'm
glad that I made the attempt because I think
that if you want to see change in these in the
government, especially you got to be willing
to put yourself out there as a person that can
try and create that change. So I'm glad I tried.
But at the same time, I'm also glad I didn't
win because the whole time I did it, I felt very,
very, very out of place doing that. Just didn't
feel. Like something I would want to do. And
I think that what I do at Ashland Front now is
infinitely more impactful than anything I could
have done as a part of that crazy body of individuals.
So that's kind of how it started. And then also
my unique story of the pandemic was my son had
been born February of 2020. So, you know, there's
a lot of things that it affected with that, you
know, the inability to. uh rely upon basically
rely upon other people rely upon your you know
your village of people to to help you with you
know having a new baby so that that affected
things and then um what else i do during the
pandemic um well when i lost the race in congress
and kind of went like um i that's when i started
writing this memoir i'm sure We're going to talk
about, that's when I started writing in earnest
on the memoir. I had already done some pages,
but that's when I started writing, you know,
every single day, making sure I wrote a thousand
words or a couple of pages or whatever I could
muster that day. That's when I started writing
that. And that's also when I started trying to
get back into motivational speaking a little
bit. And obviously the pandemic really affected
that heavily. I think I did one virtual event
in all of 2021. So that was that was something
I was doing. And by getting back into virtual
or motivational speaking kind of led me to the
Echelon Front pathway in the end. But, yeah,
I mean, and being on a farm really was a positive
for us because we were able to we didn't have
to worry about food. We had all the food we could
all the good, healthy food that we could have.
But yeah, there's a lot of stuff, but those are
kind of the highlights, I would say. It's something
that seems to be evident of an area that needs
to be changed, that someone who would be a good
leader that we know, and I've had this conversation
with so many of my friends, when they get into
this world, they're turned off by it or they're
not successful. And if we go to the macro level,
if we're talking about the presidential campaign,
I've always said the problem that we have at
the moment is not everyone can compete in that
game. It's a demistocracy. You've got to be incredibly
wealthy, millionaire or billionaire, and arguably
you've got to be devoid of ethics because you
are taking money from companies that are lining
your pockets that then you're going to do favors
for when you get in. So not truly a democratic
process. But that's not why I don't believe what
the founding fathers envisioned as far as a political
process. Going back down to the experience that
you had now, what were some of the cons of the
path that you took? Even if you lost to another
incredible leader and it was a great environment,
but what were the things that you didn't like?
And if you were king for a day, what would we
change so that we would allow all of the right
kind of people to actually succeed in these political
spaces? Yeah, obviously that's a big question.
For my own experience, what I didn't like about
it was, especially the primary process, tends
to pre -select for people that are a little bit
more on the extreme of the other side. So when
you're running a primary in a government, for
federal office, you have to be able to win the
primary. And the way that you win the primary
is by winning over the people that are... that
are going to vote in the primary. And the people
that are going to vote in the primary are the
ones that are 100 % hardcore for that political
party. They're either hardcore Republican or
they're hardcore Democrat. And they want to hear
the more hardcore talking points of that platform,
of the general platform. And so in order to do
that, you spend a lot of time talking to people
that are hardcore on that side. And so for me,
it was really hard because I'm not really – I
wouldn't say I'm a hardcore person on either
side. I think back then I probably identified
more with the Republican Party, and that's why
I picked that as a party to run with. I probably
identified with more of their beliefs. But that
didn't mean that I was in line with everything
that they were saying or everything that anybody
says really. So I found myself – in this kind
of a tough position of trying to win the primary
and there's a certain thing you have to do in
order to do to win the primary but at the same
time also trying to balance that with why i ran
in the first place which was to just be to show
people that a good person can be in congress
and not get corrupted and can make the right
decisions on behalf of everybody instead of themselves
and so there was this this balance and there
was a battle going kind of going on between me
and my the people that were helping me run the
campaign. So they had the kind of a formula that
they would always plug things into. And the general
formula when you're running a campaign is, you
know, you tweet a picture of the other person,
like mid sentence, like, so they look stupid.
You know what I mean? It's like every single
one, just like that. So they look mean and it's
black and white and it's red. You know what I
mean? It's like the same thing. And so that's
kind of there. So they would be tweeting out
all that stuff. And that's not who I wanted to
be. But it was a real struggle to balance letting
them put stuff out without having to check everything
with me first, but also make sure the stuff that
they were putting out reflected me as why I was
running in the first place, which was to unify
as opposed to divide. And so I think the one
thing that worked the best was I said, hey, if
the picture that you're putting up or the post
that you're putting up is designed to cause any
kind of emotion like anger, sadness, fear, anything
like that, don't post it. So only post things
that are going to make people feel good or unified
or these kinds of things. Have an open mind.
And that's a really hard way to run a campaign
in a primary. So I think if I were to go back
and do it again, I probably would have tried
just to run as an independent and just be like,
And offer myself up as an option, do the best
I could and say, this is me, this is what I'm
trying to do, and just be more pure to myself
and just say, this is what I think. I kind of
felt like I was having to hide some of the things
that I thought, or maybe not that I had to. I
didn't have to. I could have done the same thing
as a Republican nominee, but I felt back then
I had convinced myself that I kind of had to
up. to hide a little bit of what i believed so
that i would so i would win and so that's it
that was not the way to that i wanted to to do
it and so i would advise any you know myself
back then just to run as a yeah you know run
as a republican again but just don't just share
what you believe and just let the the cards fall
as they would as they may uh so that was my personal
experience and if i was king for a day what i
would do is i would I would try and convince
people – I would convince more people to be involved
in the primary process because there's tons of
what you would call just regular people that
don't necessarily fall on either side of the
aisle in a hardcore way that could potentially
go and vote in primaries across the country.
But they don't because they just – they don't
want to go and – and put their lot for, they
just don't care enough in the primary process.
So that's what I would try and do. I would just
try and say, hey, everybody, if you want a normal
person to be running for a position in the government,
then normal people have to go and vote. People
that aren't extreme have to go and vote. And
so that's what I would try and do. I would try
and convince more people that are kind of like
you and me, balanced on either side and just
have an open mind. I would try and convince those
people to go and vote in primaries so that we
could select people that would get to a position
where they're the candidate. The power is with
us. The power is with the individuals that are
voting. It's just not enough of them really do
it, and we need more people that are willing
to look outside of just these two options. I've
always said that a leader unites and a tyrant
divides. And yet it's the tyranny side that seems
to be the political strategy these days. And
it's sad because if you think about it, 330 million
people in this country say, I'm a Republican,
you're a Democrat or whatever, insert two different
parties here. And we run against each other for
the presidency and you win. Everyone that was
voting for me really should be like, well, it's
a shame because we like James is just a little
bit more. But Rob's a good human, too. And he's
not too far from us. So we're happy either way.
That's that's in theory. That's what we should
have. But we have the complete opposite where
it's like World War One. And if, you know, your
side didn't win, then, you know, it was rigged
and you go break into government buildings or,
you know, whatever the thing is, rather than
going, OK, well, there's two great people, three
great people running. Whoever wins, at least
we're going to have a great leader at the helm
of our country. And I think it's completely backwards
at the moment. Yeah, you know, I haven't really
thought about this tons. I'd really have to sit
down and think about it and write some stuff
out and kind of flesh out some ideas on this.
But I do think that there's a large component
of why that is, is because the divisive language,
I think it does tend to... It tends to feed our
natural tendency as humans to want to exclude,
to kind of, I guess, exclude other people or
be certain about things. There's some primal
instincts that what they're doing feeds. And
the people that are involved in doing the most
of the voting, the primaries and that kind of
stuff, those people are probably a little bit
more susceptible to those primal instincts. So
when you have a certain candidate say exactly
what that person wants to hear, it kind of snowball
effect. It amplifies what they're thinking and
they just – they're drawn to that person. Whereas
another person that doesn't get involved in primaries
and isn't as susceptible to those primal instincts,
it doesn't affect them as much. So that's – I
kind of think that's – part of a big part of
the reason and there's other stuff associated
with it too but i think if i had to think about
it from you know just my perspective as a as
a regular voter at this point that's i think
that's what i see i think i see people have natural
tendencies um that cause them to uh you know
want to feel angry want to be divisive and want
all these things And want to have certainty about
stuff in situations where there isn't any certainty.
People will kind of seek that stuff out. And
we're not detaching from that. And we're just
following that. And that's how certain people
get selected. So there's a big component of that
there. And obviously, I don't know exactly what
everything that's going on. It's a very, very
complex situation. But I do think that there's
something there. about natural human tendencies
that are feeding this little situation that we
have. It's interesting because it's the tribalism
that can be positive or negative, as people say.
Yeah, your tribe is the best. The other tribe
is evil. That's the primal instinct. and then
also the certainty aspect of it too i think is
people don't like living in uncertainty we don't
like being i don't like being uncertain about
something and if i if there's something that's
happening and i can't figure out i can't figure
out of my mind what is the dis what is the what
do i think about that and you just have to live
in that kind of uncertain place that's not a
good place to live so even though you don't have
all the evidence you just kind of graft onto
something that feels like it should be right.
And then when you do that, you grabbed onto it,
your mind closes and you don't consider anything
else because you, you're just clinging onto that
certainty. And we have to be able to let go of
those two things, let go of this, the need for
certainty and be happy with a little bit of uncertainty
in our lives. And also recognize that the tribe
that we're a part of is the entire country. That's,
that's the tribe. I mean, humanity is our tribe.
So we just have to. We have to recognize that.
But those are very powerful primal instincts.
And it's really hard if you're not thinking about
it just to give in to it. Yeah. One of my guests
a few weeks ago said, I think he was quoting
someone else, but it was, you've got two types
of people. You've got civilians and you've got
citizens. Oh, is that a Starship Troopers thing?
It might be. I don't know. I'm not sure where
it's from, but it's a great concept because a
civilian just lives in the country. And like
you said, that's probably the kind of person
that then is looking for guidance and then grabbing
onto one side or the other. A citizen is investing
into their country and they're a first responder
or a military member or a teacher or a nurse
or just a good person in their community. And
I think that's a really good question to look
in the mirror and ask yourself. Am I a citizen
or am I a civilian? Am I just paying my taxes
and using the assets of this country and not
really putting much in? Or am I trying to go
above and beyond because I care enough about
my community and my country? And yeah, I'll even
have the hard conversations when things that
are happening around me are wrong as well. My
moral compass, my moral courage. But I thought
that was a really interesting way of looking
at it. The danger is that we all become simply
civilians. And then we get told what to do. And
that's kind of, you know, nationalism over patriotism.
Then a patriot is someone who actually invests
in their country rather than just mindlessly
follows a tribe. Yeah, well, you got to you got
to be involved. You got to take ownership of.
Of the things that are that affect your life,
your mission, and if you give that if you give
a if you give it up, if you're not going to go
and vote or research the candidate that you like
or do all these different things, then. yeah,
you're going to be getting let around. You're
going to have some stuff. Other people are going
to go ahead and do that. And then you're going
to lose control. So if you, if you want to see
your country or your community be what you want
it to be, you have to be involved. You have to
take ownership of making that happen. But yeah,
I think that I remember that, that quote reminds
me of this, that scene in the Starship Troopers
movie where they're all, it's in the very beginning
and they're talking, I think that the teachers
in the front. And he goes, what's the difference
between a citizen and a civilian? And then the
main character says basically what you said,
I think. So I wonder if that came from the book,
Starship Troopers. Yeah, it could be. It could
be. Good, I like it. Yeah, yeah. All right, we'll
go into the farming for a second. So what made
you even decide to get the farm in the first
place? Knowing I grew up on a farm myself, so
knowing how challenging farms can be with two
biological legs still, what have been some of
the challenges for you working on the farm? What
kind of farm did you grow up on? So my dad was
a horse vet, veterinary surgeon. So we had stables,
but then we also had sheep and poultry and other
things. Yeah, you're English, you've had sheep
for sure. So big enough to, you know, to... Have
to work the entire childhood, put it that way.
Yeah. Yeah, I grew up on a horse farm too, 300
acres. And yeah, lots of horse stall cleaning
and things like that. I bet we talked about it
on the first podcast. But the way that the farm
happened, I just want to be clear. My wife is
the farmer. She does all the farming. I help
her from time to time if she needs my help. At
this point, she doesn't need it nearly as often
as before because she's got part -time employees.
She's got farm employees. She's grown the business.
But we own 13 acres. And the way that it came
about was my wife, Pam, she was a Paralympic
gold medalist, two -time Paralympic gold medalist.
And while she was rowing, she recognized that
in order to be at her highest performance level,
she had to eat good, clean food in order to be
her greatest self, her greatest rower that she
could possibly be. And so when she was thinking
about what she wanted to do after rowing, that
feeling really resonated with her that she wanted
to live a life that allowed her to be her best
self, which meant that she had to eat the healthiest
food possible. And one of the problems with eating
the healthiest food possible is when you get
it from another source, it's really hard to know
exactly what they're doing with it. You don't
know a lot of the time because it's coming from
some... unknown person it just comes from some
farm that you never met the person before and
you don't know how they raise things and even
they put it on the label unless it's like the
term organic uh is on the label there's there's
a lot of industry there's a lot of marketing
terms that end up on food labels like natural
or all natural or pasture raised or uh what is
it cage free all this different things it doesn't
necessarily mean anything and so i think what
she realized was that um If she wanted to be
certain that she was getting the best food possible,
she needed to grow it herself. And so she wanted
to, that's what she wanted to do. And so she
learned some, she went to some courses about
how to raise sheep and she did some hands -on
stuff with that. And then when she moved over
here to America in 2017, she got a job at a vegetable
farm near us. She learned a lot there, and eventually
her and a friend that worked there together decided
that they were going to start a farm on our property.
But that was kind of the motivation for us, taking
ownership of your food source. If you want to
have the best food possible, you have to take
ownership of it, which means you have to know
what's going into your food, how it's raised,
what did it get fed, all these different things.
You have to know that in order to really take
full ownership, extreme ownership of your food.
And she decided to go ahead and do the route
where she's the one that's growing it. But not
everybody has to grow their own food. You at
least have to go and find out how this stuff
gets raised, how your food is getting raised,
and buy the stuff that you know is – you have
a relationship with the farmer. You know what
their terms mean, how they raise things. You
know them as a person. You know that they're
honest, all these different things, that you
can trust what they're telling you. So which
animals and poultry do you have now? So Pam does
vegetables. This is the primary farm component.
And then so she sells at the farmer's market,
and she has essentially – it's called a CSA,
but it's essentially a weekly subscription for
people. They have a little farm shop at the end
of our driveway. And then animal side, they have
egg -laying hens. And then every year she does
– between 60 and 100 meat chickens. And then
we have a bunch of lamb. She raises lamb and
slaughters lamb. Every now and then we'll have
pigs. She does turkeys from time to time. And
then we have one cow at a time that we raise.
Brilliant. So talk to me then, what did that
look like during COVID? So when everyone was
scrambling for toilet paper and the abattoirs
had a bottleneck from the mega farms, what were
you experiencing with your family at that time?
I don't – I'm trying to remember. In COVID, I
don't think that she had the meat side of it
yet. I'm trying to remember. The meat side of
it didn't come until later. But yeah, I mean
during COVID, guess what? Farmers markets weren't
running. So they had to shift. That's part of
the reason why they shifted to the CSA subscription
model. Or they shifted over that way even more
because the farmers markets weren't happening.
And another way that it affected us was she has
to – it's really hard to farm with a baby. And
it's also really hard to – so it's really hard
to farm with a baby. So that meant I spent the
vast majority of my time – when I was making
campaign calls, I would be – I would have Harry
on my shoulder taking a nap. And I'd be making
calls like, hey, you want to donate to my campaign?
No, bye. Hey, you want to donate to my campaign?
No, bye. I was doing that. and talking to people
while holding a sleeping baby and then every
now and then i go hey do you want it and he would
start crying i go oh yeah that's my son i'd have
to get up and walk around doing the calls so
it was just really hard to get uh to to form
that community that that we could uh rely upon
to take a little bit of the the child care burden
uh away so that we could uh so we could you know
do other work you know how being a parent is
work but you know doing do other work um so we
it was it was a we had to work together as a
team in order to do that she would do her part
as well um on the other days of the of the week
and we would it required a lot of teamwork between
the two of us to make that to make that functional
but the farm yeah i mean that's that was the
main effect on the farm would be you know had
to Had to shift the way that the farm was selling
its produce. And then childcare with working
parents is always a challenge. And what about
as far as the amputee side? What's been challenging
when you are having to work on the farm? Yeah,
you know, one of the things I had to do with
the farm, with having property and being a parent
and being a dad, was figure out a different leg
solution. every activity that I take part in
requires essentially a different, a slightly
different kind of leg setup. So before I became
a dad and before I moved on and had land living
in apartments and stuff, I could just have my,
my walking legs, my X fours, I would have liners
and all this stuff that goes on them and they
have knees and do all this thing, all these things.
I'd have my legs for the sports that I did. And
then I would just have to have what I call it
house legs. which are legs that don't have a
liner. They just pop on and off. And that's,
I would spend a lot of my day in those because
I would just be doing, if I was training for
a sport, I would go out and do the train and
I'd get back and I would just hang out at my
house and I would take my legs off, put my house
legs on and I can just walk around my house as
needed. And then when I sat back down, I'd take
them off. So I'd be very comfortable. But when
you have, when you're a parent, you don't really
sit down a lot because your, your kids are, they
always need something. And also when you have
property, there's a lot of stuff you have to
do out on the property that having the bionic
knees is just not a good, it's not, I'm not really
able to do it very well. Like I can't really
effectively chainsaw a log in X4s. It's not happening
because of the various balance aspects of it.
And just being around on really undulating. you
know, really rough terrain and those legs makes
it so that you, it's really hard to do. So eventually
I had to figure out, I had to get, I had to go
back to shorties, which is something I started
in. That's what I learned how to walk in, which
is just a short straight leg, but it has liners.
It was what my house legs were, but it's all
just, but now it has liners and stuff. So I had
to go back to that. I had to figure out. you
know a good system to be able to go outside come
back in and not bring a bunch of mud in the house
so you know all these different things I had
to craft essentially a leg setup for the way
that my life was and it took me a little while
to figure out what it was um and so I would get
blisters a lot when I was when I was uh you know
first became a dad because I would wear the house
legs and they're not they move around a little
bit more they cause more skin irritation so But
now I'm at a pretty good spot now where I have
a really good leg system in place. So that was
one thing from an amputee perspective. And yeah,
it's just a little bit more challenging to do
the things that you need to do when you have
property. Not having the lower halves of your
legs plays a big role in being able to do that.
It's harder to drive a tractor. It's harder to
drive your ATV around. It's harder to pick things
up from the ground. It's all these different
things. Uh, with the, all I do, what I can do,
I have the leg set up. I have, I find whatever
tool I need to, to, to make me or help me be
able to do. I just figure it out because the
fact of the matter is I want to do it and I need
to be able to do it to support my wife and do
all these things. I have to figure out a way
to make it happen. So yes, does it affect me?
It makes things harder, but if there's something
I need to do, I'm going to do it. So it's not
the same in that way. Yeah, well, you just because
normally when we're thinking about adaptive athletes,
you know, we are looking at a track or like you
said, rowing or, you know, even even footage
of your marathons, you know, it's still on asphalt.
But the thought of, you know, chainsawing and
mucking out stables and pushing a wheelbarrow
and all these things, it's a completely different
way. And it's not something that really gets
talked about. What does the rest of life look
like? for an amputee because we see you know
the sporting highlights and the gym videos and
stuff but we don't see yeah i gotta go pick cabbages
today what does that look like yeah i mean it's
it's a different thing to look at but the it's
still it's essentially the same philosophy If
I want to go out and row, then well, yeah, I
mean, I got to figure out a way to get my boat
down to the dock. I got to figure out how to
get into the boat. I got to figure out what my
legs set up for the thing is. If I want to go
run, well, hey, I got to figure out a good place
for me to run. I got to figure out what legs
work for me to run. Same thing with a bike. Got
to figure out what legs I got to run with the
bike. How do I do it? Got to learn how to do
it. Got to figure it out. But in the end, it's
I want to do those things. So I figure out how
to make it happen. And so it's really, it's less
glorious to... to talk about how I carry my kids
around when we're out at a restaurant. But it's
basically the same exact thing, same exact philosophy
anyway. When you said shorties, it reminded me,
you and I met, I think it was 2001, I think it
was, when One World Trade was first opened and
we did the Steven Siller climb. It wasn't 2001,
it was... It's not 2001, 2021 is what I meant
to say. 2021. Yeah. Yeah. And it was funny because
I brought all my fire gear over. I was getting
ready to borrow a set of an air pack from an
FDM way firefighter friend. Not allowed. And
they were like, yeah, no, you can't take any
of that stuff because of security. So I ended
up doing it in shorts and t -shirt and you had
your shorties on. I think you tried the steps
a couple of times and then you switched to the
ones that literally were like pads and bear crawled
a hundred and whatever floors that we climbed.
which made me feel like an even bigger pussy
because i didn't even have my uh my fire gear
on but i mean it was it was amazing to watch
though yeah the first couple times i did that
tower climb i did in the x4s and part of the
reason i did that was i thought it's what i had
to do i hadn't really thought of a different
way i hadn't done it before so i hadn't i didn't
have the experience to really think about a different
way to do it uh and also i kind of wanted to
do it in those because I kind of saw it as a
way for me to learn how to go upstairs better.
Cause there's a mode in the, in the legs that
I was wearing that you do a certain motion with
a leg and it goes into like the stair climbing
mode. And I wasn't really good at doing that.
So I figured the tower climb could be a good
way for me to, to force me how to learn how to
do that because you never know when you're going
to be on a subway in New York city and you have
to go upstairs and there's all these people around
you. So it'd be good to be able to it's just
a good skill to have. And then I did that. So
I did that the first couple of times, but I thought,
all right, now that's over. Now I want to figure
out what is the, what is the leg set up that
would, that would make me the fastest. Cause
it felt, it always felt really slow. I felt like
I could be faster, but I was slowed down by having
to do this, like this step over step thing that
I was doing. So I'd accomplished what I wanted
to accomplish with that. So then I started going,
well, how can I be the fastest I could be? And
really what I realized was that. In order to
climb all these stairs, I didn't actually need
the legs. I could just put on these legs that
I use for jujitsu and squatting, which doesn't
have any prosthetic component to it. It's just
a socket with, like you said, pads on the bottom.
I just walk on that and, like you said, bear
crawl essentially up the steps. And it was probably
a good 25 to 30 minutes faster. And so that's,
you know, I think that was maybe the, when you
joined us, it was the first or second year that
I tried that and worked out a lot better. Yeah,
no, you flew up there. It was amazing. So yeah,
it's just figuring out the tools, the situation
that facilitate you to be the best version of
whatever you're trying to do. Speaking of jiu
-jitsu, I had Kyle Maynard on the show. He's
a quadruple congenital amputee, but he was MMA,
jiu -jitsu, and then Mark Ormrod, triple amputee,
does jiu -jitsu as well. Have you got to roll
with fellow amputees and see what the pros and
cons are for all the different limb losses? I
haven't rolled with any. The first time I ever
rolled, I was at Jocko's gym. I had never done
any jiu -jitsu before, and he had me roll with
a guy that was missing his hand. I forget what
his name was. That's the only time I've ever
rolled with another amputee. That being said,
my brother from Afghanistan, Dowdell, he's a
black belt. He's a double above knee amputee
too. So I ask him from time to time. I'll send
him a text and go, what do you like to do for
side control? What do you like to do for guard?
What do you like to do for this? And he'll send
me a video and give me some tips. But really,
I mean, my professor, my jiu -jitsu professor,
Professor Charles, I ask him a question, he gives
me probably just as good advice because he's
just that experienced. He can do it. And again,
it's just use the stuff that works. Don't use
the stuff that doesn't work for you. Like, uh,
I, I'm not really going to be able to do a thing
where I hook somebody's leg with my ankle because
I don't do a closed guard because I literally
can't do it. And so just don't, just don't bother
with, with it. Just do what, you know, do what
works for you. Um, but no, I haven't rolled that
in with any other amputees. I want to for sure,
but, uh, I haven't, I don't, I don't, I only
go once a week. on saturdays usually because
my main focus and or my main purpose in doing
jiu -jitsu is to get my son to be able to want
to do it and so we do we go we do the parents
kids class and then there's an adults class i
do right after that so i usually only do it the
one time a week but i would like to do it more
i just need to figure out the scheduling i think
mark and certainly kyle um and i think i'll get
his full name now but there's that wrestler who's
like literally congenital again he's got like
his diaphragm and that's about it almost stops
at his hips crazy yeah yeah but when they're
first wrestling everyone's fine just rolling
them around you know in these competitions but
as they get better then and only then people
start complaining well wait a second it's not
fair because you know they'd be in this this
higher weight but you were fine when you were
number four but now they're getting better and
they're beating you now you have a problem with
with the fact that they're lighter without their
legs for example yeah that's funny that's just
ego man Absolutely. That's funny. All right.
Before we go to the book, talk to me about your
journey into Ashkelon Front. Because I got to
meet you again in Orlando a few weeks ago. I
got to watch your presentation, which was amazing.
Lead me through that path to Jocko and Leif.
Yeah. So I was on Jocko's podcast in 2017, right
before the month of marathons. Had me on the
podcast. And then afterwards, he had me on again
to talk about how it went and everything. And
at that point I had been getting some requests
for motivational speaking. And I remember that
I just asked him how he books things. And he
said, well, you know, I just, you know, Echelon
Front is my company and that's how, you know,
that's how I, all my events get booked through
them. And then he, you know, I, and I just said,
okay, thanks. And then I didn't really do anything
with that information for a while. And I started
trying to build out. my own motivational speaking
career. Took a break from it to run for Congress
and all that stuff, and then went back to it.
And I remember our good friend Jason Gardner
invited me out to Battlefield, which is an event
that we do where we go to – it used to be at
Gettysburg. They're doing it at Fredericksburg
this year. But we go out to a battlefield, and
we talk about the leadership lessons that happen
at the battlefield, and then we do a bunch of
group discussion and introspection about how
that particular lesson applies to – to our world.
It's an awesome event. Um, and the only thing
I really had to talk about at that event was
my motivational, you know, family stuff. And
then my motivational speaking, you know, challenges.
And eventually we got off the bus one time and
Leif came up to me and he was asking me about,
you know, how I book events. Did I use a speaker's
bureau, all these different things. And eventually
he said, well, why don't you come over and check
out what we're doing at Echelon front? And at
that point I said, well, if you're going to offer
me a dream job, then I'm going to say, hell yes
not only yes but hell yes uh and then so you
know followed up with them after after battlefield
and they got me you know into the uh into the
system and i started just going to events that
they you know that they had instructors going
to they just had me observe i would just go and
watch and see how it was and after i watched
a few they asked me life and then asked me you
know What did you think? Is this something that
you think you would want to do? And I went, yes.
And then after that, I got set up with a mentor,
Steve Ward, and I would just go on a lot of his
events. And he would sit down with me and say,
this is the keynote, so I want you to build out
your keynote. You have to cover these subjects.
This is what I want you to build one out. And
then so I sat down and worked on that, crafted
that. And, you know, watch more keynotes and
stuff. And eventually I briefed my keynote to
Steve. I briefed my keynote to Sean and all these
other people I was traveling with. They gave
me tips. Then eventually, as I got better and
better, they started letting me do one thing
that we teach. One four or five minute talking
point or one philosophy that we teach, like a
mindset, like default aggressive. They would
let me do that. And they would evaluate me. Give
me tips. I would practice more. And eventually,
as they got more and more comfortable, they'd
let me start taking on more and more of the keynote
until eventually they said, all right, final
checkout. Do your keynote for us. Did some Q
&A. They said, you know, they evaluated me. They
said I was good. And then I could start doing
keynotes on my own. Then it's the same thing
for half -day, full -day workshops. You just
get to do more and more of it until eventually.
They feel comfortable that you're going to be
able to go out and represent Echelon Front well
and actually teach what we need to be able to
teach. And that process probably took about six
months, I would say, or a little bit longer than
six months. And eventually they say, we would
like to offer you the position officially. And
now I get to go out. It's the best job ever.
I get to go spend time with my friends. I get
to go out and I get to help people every time
I work. And every time I work is the even better
thing. Every time I go out and do an event, I
come back a better person because I'm thinking
about extreme ownership and I'm thinking about
leadership. I'm thinking about the laws of combat.
It's impossible to teach all these things and
not think about how it applies to myself in ways
that I can be better in all these different ways.
Every time I go and work, I get to come back
a better person, and very few people get to say
that. When you came off having spoken in Orlando,
I remember even them were asking for notes on
your talk. What are some of the things, the real
aha moments for you as far as that stage presence
and that public speaking element that maybe you
weren't doing very much earlier in your life?
I don't know if I had a specific aha moment that
really made a bunch of things click into place.
I think for me it was more of a steady learn
a little bit, learn a little bit. So the first
time I spoke on stage, it was shortly after I
was wounded, and I got asked to speak at my veterans
– or my old high school's Veterans Day assembly.
And I literally just had a piece of paper that
I wrote from, and you could hear my voice cracking
and all this different stuff. That was the first
time I really spoke on stage, but it was just
consistent, regular practice and being willing
to listen to feedback and being willing to keep
practicing and keep practicing. I think the biggest
thing to remember is that there's always something
that you can improve on no matter how good you
get. We could probably do a whole podcast on
different aspects of speaking in front of a group.
But really, there isn't really going to be an
aha moment. It's just consistent, regular practice
and development and learning from other people,
looking up different philosophies on how to speak,
different ways of doing things. Find the one
that resonates with you. Practice it, practice
it, practice it. Do it with other people. Get
some feedback. Try it again. Rewrite things to
think about the things that you're saying. How
can I say that in a better way? Just regular,
constant improvement is really what it's all
about. much of an aha moment that I would say
that I could really recognize, but it was just
that continuous development that got me to where
I am now. And a lot of help from a lot of, you
know, a lot of the other instructors that give
me advice. I had Sean Glass on the show, literally.
I just put his episode out yesterday. I think
we interviewed about two weeks ago. And really
interesting because he had some experience working
with first responders through Echelon Front.
Have you found yourself working with that group?
Yeah, I've done a decent number of events with
first responders. Yeah, they're all awesome.
They have the same challenges we all do. If any,
what was some of the myths or things that you
didn't understand about that profession until
you started working with them specifically? Ooh,
myths. I don't know. I don't know if I really
believed in anything that was a myth about. first
responders i have a lot of i've had a lot of
experience with first responders to the point
that i don't know if i had any anything that
i would call a myth that got dispelled what was
sean's um well i don't know if i even asked him
that specifically what i'll ask you next then
is were there any common denominators then as
far as the leadership challenges that you seem
to hear from the first responders Honestly, it's
always going to be – what we teach at Echelon
Front is leadership is the solution to every
problem. And what leadership really breaks down
to is the four laws of combat. And every time
we work with a team, when they're struggling,
they're violating the laws of combat. When they're
doing well, they're living up to the laws of
combat. And it's the same thing across the board
for every single team that we work with, whether
it's first responders. uh businesses classrooms
individuals all the same people it's the same
exact thing and it's just that it manifests itself
in in different ways that are specific maybe
specific to first responders like you know first
responders uh there's like there's a there's
a rank structure in first responders that doesn't
exist in a business or in a nonprofit or something
like that. There's command structure of lieutenants,
sergeants, and all these different things. So
that makes things a little bit more different
than a corporation, but you still got to be able
to lead up the chain of command. You still have
to build relationships. You still have to do
all the same stuff. It's just it might look a
little bit different. But yeah, man, it's really,
I don't know. that there's anything that is specific
to first responders from my experience that I
wouldn't say also applies in every other team.
One of the challenges that we have, I'll paint
a picture then, is at the moment we are going
through an incredibly horrendous recruitment
and retention crisis in the first responder profession.
And it's not that some suggest that kids these
days don't want to do the job, don't want to
work. It's the opposite. Kids these days, the
ones that are the right candidates for the military,
for the first responders, have access to all
this information. And they can ask Google, is
it healthy to be a firefighter? And 25 years
ago when I came on, when I was looking at least,
we weren't even asking that question. It was
just like, how do I become a firefighter? That
was the only thing. Now, even though there are
so many great things about the profession, people
can also see. The understaffing, the overworking,
the diseases and mental health issues, et cetera,
et cetera. And these are all very preventable
issues. If you take the money that's downstream,
that's wasted through all things, mismanagement,
and you invest in an extra shift, more staffing,
that will forge recruitment. People will come
back to become firefighters again. So that's
how you fix it. And then now these vacancies
are filled. People aren't being forced to work
overtime. And that's great healing. But I know
a lot of great people in departments that are
trying to make change. And it might be a chief,
it might be a city or county council member,
it might be the union president is pushing against
this. So where I'm seeing, and again, I'm not
tarring everyone with the same brush, but this
is quite a frequent event, is there are people
that are in these positions that enjoy a 40 -hour
work week, that go home at five every night.
And they're not advocating for the people that
are working 80 hours a week and being told they
can't go home to their family. So an absence
of moral courage. Talk to me about if you are,
you know, put yourself in that position. You're
a passionate firefighter. You have extreme ownership.
And I actually put this to Jocko when I interviewed
him the first time. You really are living it
that way. How are you able to create a movement?
to maybe navigate a barrier that is in, as you
said, a rank or a position that's a lot harder
to navigate? So I would say, especially with
first responder and military, yeah, the answer
is it's not healthy. Definitely not healthy.
You're not doing it for your health. But why?
But people still do. Why do why do people still
keep signing up to be first responders? Why do
people keep why do people sign up to be in the
Marine Corps during a war? I'll speak from my
own experience. I signed up in 2006 to go to
join the Marine Corps in the middle of two wars,
knowing and actually wanting to go and fight
in one of those wars. And I wasn't doing it for
my health. I wasn't doing it because I was going
to get paid well. I was doing it because I cared
about things more important to me than that.
I wanted to go be a part of a brotherhood. I
wanted to do something that was meaningful. I
wanted to do something that mattered. That's
why I joined the Marine Corps during a war. And
then when I got in, I got all those things and
it was really hard. And there was a lot of challenging
parts of being in the Marine Corps. And I remember
when I was in Afghanistan, we had just pushed
into a place called, uh musa musa kayla uh and
i'm pretty sure i this has kind of been the beginning
of my book but uh musa kayla and i i think i
tell the story in the book about how i was standing
on that um on that that hill with all these vehicles
around i was talking to my friend daniel and
i was talking about all these different you know
i i we were drinking well water so we we had
basically uh dysentery our guts were messed up
my Entire body was covered in sand flea bites
and itched, chafing. I felt like I was 80 years
old. I felt terrible. Then I said, I'm the happiest
I've ever been in my entire life. And the reason
for that was because I was doing something that
– like I said, I was doing something that mattered.
I was a part of a brotherhood, and I looked around.
And at that moment, I decided I want to be in
the Marine Corps as long as possible. I want
to keep doing this as long as I can. And the
reason I decided to stay was because of all the
people around me. I looked around at my fellow
Marines. That's the reason I wanted to stay is
because of all these people around me. It wasn't
because – it was – yes, the mission mattered.
I love being in the Marine Corps. I love all
those things. But it was really because the people
around me made all this stuff not feel so bad.
They were all going through it with me. And that's
what made me want to stay. It was the people
I was with. So what I would say is there's a
lot of things that you can't control as a first
responder. You can't control what the board of
supervisors or the city council decides as you're
funding whatever. A lot of the times you don't
have tons of control over. decisions that your
chief makes about various things. You have some,
but ultimately, the chief is going to make the
decision. What you can do is control who you
are as a person and be a person that other people
would want to come to work and be around and
would want to keep doing this really tough job.
Because they're doing it and they're coming in
and getting to be with people that they care
about, that they love, and that they enjoy being
at work with. So that's the number one thing
I would say is just be a person that other people
want to come to work and work with. And just
never forget that it feels like you don't have
lots of control. If you lead effectively and
you build good relationships and you execute
on the laws of combat and you take ownership
of all the problems in your life, guess what's
going to happen is you're going to have more
opportunities open up to you and you can move
up the ranks. The more you move up the ranks,
the more that mindset that you have is going
to move up the ranks, the more influence you're
going to get. And then you can really help people.
You know, when you have a bigger position of
influence and it's going to take a long time,
it's going to be really hard to do along the
way. But if you have that as your goal, if you
really want to help firefighters, then you can
stick around and you can gain as much influence
as you can and get to a point where you have
a lot more influence on the lives of firefighters
and police officers and paramedics and all first
responders. Absolutely. Well, I think that's
the thing is we have that service burning in
our heart. But if you're not careful, it gets
taken advantage of. A lot of the military units
now, they have organizations like the Thor 3
program for the Green Berets where they're taking
care of their people and they're forging performance
and they're doing great prehab and rehab and
all these other things. And we don't really have
that in our profession yet. And I think we can.
So that's the thing is if you love the men and
women to the left and the right of you, you also
fight. for them to be an environment that allows
them to thrive, allows them to go home, allows
them to rest and recover. Let's flip it on its
head. Now we're talking to that fire chief. And
again, I'm not picking on all chiefs, but in
this example, that is refusing to acknowledge
that there is a problem and refusing to find
the courage to actually go to the city or the
county and say, look, we need to reallocate funds
so that we can be proactive and fix some of this
financial bleeding and these health issues that
we have. Let's say it's someone who's kind of
on the fence. What can we say to them to maybe
get them to look in the mirror and reconsider
maybe their disconnection with the men and women
that are actually serving under them? If they're
in denial about the fact that there's an issue,
that sounds to me like they have closed their
mind and they're not willing to let their mind
be opened because they don't want to hear the
truth. And so what I would say is get out there,
and you've got to talk to more people. You have
to go out and actually listen to as many people
as you can. You've got to get out of your office.
You've got to go down to each firehouse or each
– and look, I'm going to say firefighter terms
because you're a firefighter, but this applies
obviously to every first responder. I'm not trying
to leave anybody out. But you've got to get down
to the firehouse, and you've got to talk to people,
spend some time with them, see what they're experiencing,
and actually listen to them. And the vast majority
of the time, they might say something that you
don't want to hear. But even though you don't
want to hear it, that's the truth. That's what
you have to accept. And you have to be able to
put your ego aside because that's the only way
that you're going to be able to help them. And
just remember where you came from as well. Remember
that you were probably a frontline firefighter
at one point. You're thinking all these different
things and how great would it have been if your
chief actually listened to you and responded
to the things that you needed. So that's what
I would say. You have to get out of the office.
You have to open up your mind. You have to listen
to other people. Put your ego aside so that you
can make a change. Absolutely. Are you guys still
planning on doing more roll calls? The musters
focused on first responders? I know that there
is a... I don't know about the roll call, but
I know that there's a plan in place right now
to try and facilitate more first responder training.
I don't exactly know what is in the works with
it, but I know that my colleague Danny Zeem is
working on something. I would also say, this
is something I've been thinking about too, hey,
if you're a first responder organization and
you want to do some leadership training, Look
into Gary Sneese Foundation. Look into Leary
Firefighters. I know that they will give grants
out for first responder training. I don't know
if they give out grants for leadership training,
but I would definitely apply and see what they
say. Talk to our team. Get a quote for a workshop
or get a keynote or something like that. And
if it's outside your budget, go to one of these
nonprofits and see if they'll give you a grant.
This is interesting, and I was talking, I think,
to Jocko and Jason a long time ago about this.
We have promotional exams, and there's prerequisites
of a degree program, officer classes, but there's
not actual leadership training woven into that.
And if you look at it, it's very kind of academic,
and you might have someone who's a... super respected
firefighter, salt of the earth, walks the walk,
but maybe doesn't have that academic framework,
but arguably would actually be a better leader
than someone who acquired all the papers. It's
definitely a missing piece in our promotional
system. It's a missing piece in a lot of promotional
systems. You just described basically how most
people get promoted is that they're good at their
job and they know a lot about their technical
skills that they need to have. And then people
just assume that because they have the technical
skills and technical knowledge that they're also
going to be a good leader. But it's two separate
things because leadership is all about human
beings. It's about human nature. It's about knowing
about human beings and how to work with them
better as opposed to knowing how to put out a
fire. That's important. It's important to know.
It's important for your lieutenant to know all
the stuff that they have to take on that exam.
That's vital information. But yeah, you got to
know how to work with people as well. And if
you're not training that, then you're going to
select people for leadership roles that, you
know, it's a big question mark as to whether
or not they're going to be good leaders. And
if you're a firefighter and you're looking to
get promoted and there's no requirements for
leadership training, that doesn't mean that you
can't still do it. It doesn't mean that you can't
still learn. You just take it upon yourself.
And gain influence and become chief and put in
leadership training requirements. Absolutely.
All right. Well, let's talk about the book then.
So you mentioned about kind of doing little parts.
That's kind of how my first book came together.
It was blog posts that I put. And then I realized,
well, if I start writing more, there will be
a book eventually. What made you even put pen
to paper the first time and then talk to me about
how that kind of evolved to actually the book
that I've got on my desk now? Man, I don't know
what made me start putting pen to paper originally
besides the fact that I would just have thoughts.
I would just have a thought. I think that was
probably as early as being in physical therapy.
I would just have a thought. I've always had
– think about it before. I've always had just
thoughts pop into my head, philosophical thoughts.
And usually when I was younger, when I was in
college, in high school and – early on in the
Marine Corps, they would mostly be standup comedy
jokes that I would think about. Like I watched
a lot of standup comedy. So I just have a thought
about various things. I would hear something
on the news and I would, it would, I would start
thinking about it and it would form itself into
a standup comedy bit. So I would just write those
things down. I would just wrote it down in a,
in a notepad. And eventually, you know, I would
come back to it and try and flesh it out a little
bit. But then in physical therapy, I started
having more philosophical life thoughts. And
it's the same exact thing. I would just have
it and it would resonate with me. And I didn't
want to lose it because it made sense. I would
have the thought and I would go, yeah, I like
that. That's a good thought to have. And so instead
of just letting it disappear into the ether,
I would just write it down in a notepad on my
computer. I would just write the thought down.
And then if it was something that was really
powerful, I would just come back to it eventually.
And I would just start typing things up. And
part of it too, is that I had been asked to speak
at, you know, veterans day. And so that, that
got me writing a little bit, a speech. And then
I would just, I, every now and then I would get
asked to talk to a class or something like that.
And I would have to figure out something to say
to them. So I just started doing that more and
more, but I just, I was just having thoughts.
And so, and a lot of times, well, when you're
writing about a thought, You have a life experience
that kind of goes hand in hand with that thought.
So you might, as you're fleshing out that thought,
you would write a little bit about your experience
that led to it. And then you write about the
thought and then you'd conclude. I mean, that's
kind of how I was doing it. And so I just did
that a little bit, not with really the intention
of writing a memoir necessarily. But, you know,
maybe I might want it for a speech one day or
just to have. Then eventually after the Paralympics,
I started thinking, well, maybe there's enough
here to be in some sort of a book. Also, when
you're training for the Paralympics, you train
twice a day, and then you have a lot of downtime
in between, so you kind of need something to
do. So I started writing. Then also my rowing
coach, he had written a book called Assault on
Lake Casitas. So I really admired him, and I
kind of wanted to be like him too, so I wanted
to write my own little memoir. But I wasn't really
doing it in what I would call a serious fashion
at that point. I would just write from time to
time. But then I didn't start really writing
in earnest until that 2020 because I had done
a lot of other things since then. What was that
process like for you? A lot of people, when they're
writing about their history, it's very cathartic.
My own personal experience, sometimes it can
just be really freaking hard trying to write
a book as well. It is hard to write a book. I
wish I was like Jocko where I could just easily
bust out a thousand words in an hour or less.
I'm not that prolific. But for me, one of the
first things I had to do was figure out what
is my... what my hero's journey was. Because
this is a memoir. This isn't like a how -to book
or anything like that. This is a memoir. It's
a story. And I remember early on, I didn't really
know what I was doing. I was writing a book.
I found this book called The Story Grid because
the editor who wrote that book edited my favorite
book, which was Gates of Fire. And so I read
his book about how to write a story. And there
was all this stuff in it that was extremely beneficial
to me and extremely informative. Like every story
has a genre. Every genre has certain required
scenes that have to be in it in order for that
story to be satisfying for the reader. There's
a lot of other stuff, but that's kind of the
main part of it. And then also all the stories,
all the effective stories have to follow the
hero's journey. So I had to sit back and go,
well, what is my life? What is the genre of my
story? And what are all these different components
of my story? And the challenge with it too was
that most fiction books, people just make it
up. So they can just have all these – they just
have to figure out what it is. But me, I had
to reverse engineer it after something that's
already happened. So I had to go back and reverse
engineer all these different aspects like who's
my antagonist? Who's the – Who's the mentor?
Who's all these different things? What's this
moment? What's this moment? So I had to go back
and reverse engineer all that stuff. And that
took some figuring out. That took some time to
figure out what all those parts were. But once
I did, then I could start writing out the scenes
that I needed to have and then add scenes in
between. But then the writing of the scenes was
also hard too because I was trying to write dialogue.
And I don't remember exactly what people said
in all these different conversations. So I would
kind of have to figure out how to write the dialogue.
I didn't remember the words everybody was saying,
but what I remembered was the overall feeling
of the conversation. What was the result of that
conversation? So I tried to craft the words in
an interesting way that exemplified that feeling.
So that was the hard part for me. And going back
and just really trying to remember what was going
on and describing it and doing it in a way that
was going to be fun to read for people. It's
hard to do. Steven Pressfield, who wrote Gates
of Fire, wrote a book and it's fallen out my
head, but it's an incredible book on how to write
a book. And he talks about the resistance. The
closer you get to being finished with something,
the harder it is to complete it. And I've just
had that with a website put together to propose
my book becoming into a TV show. And the last
few days were a nightmare. They were a pain in
the ass. Did you find that same thing as you
got closer to completion? Did it seem like it
got harder towards the end? I think the book
you're talking about is the war of art, but he
also did another one about that's even more about
writing books specifically, which I forget the
title of, but that's a good, another one that
I read. Oh, it's nobody wants to read your shit
or something like that. Okay. Yeah. The war of
art was the one I was referring to though. So,
you know, war of art is that one, but that's
about just pursuing your purpose in life. And
then nobody wants to read your shit is about
writing books. Okay. I need to get, I read that
one too late though. Um, I don't know if it got
harder towards the end. It definitely got harder
in that I was, I was kind of just ready to be
done. So that's hard to maintain the same kind
of, uh, intensity. when you've done five when
it's your fifth draft you know and you still
need to keep making sure you have an open mind
and keep it as fresh as possible uh other hard
aspects of it was you know i had to chop things
out so being able to let go of certain things
and figure out what i needed to keep that was
that was a challenge for sure and then also When
you start working with a publisher, there's other
people that have an opinion. It's just being
able to detach from your own perspective on it
and this baby that you've created, you've spent
years making, and being able to truthfully evaluate
what those people were saying and sometimes do
what they said, even though it meant going in
a different direction than what you might want.
But the writing didn't become harder for me,
but those other aspects definitely were challenging.
What about catharsis? Did you find any? therapeutic
element of reliving these stories and putting
them on paper? I didn't find any catharsis in
it. I think I had already gotten past it at that
point. I'd talked about it enough, done enough
interviews, thought about it, you know, all those
different things. And I didn't really need, I
didn't, I wasn't really a person that required
tons of catharsis to begin with. So I think,
I don't think it was cathartic for me. Uh, and
then I was able to let go of things I was holding
onto. Uh, It was cathartic in that I got to be
done with the book that I've been trying to write
for all these years. So that was nice. But I
don't think it was particularly therapeutic for
me from a psychological level. And what about
mental health? You know, when you were a young
man, as you said, you got into the Marines, you
fell in love with Marines, you know, you had
that trajectory changed, you know, whether you
liked it or not. Now you find yourself on the
other side, still connected, but not wearing
the uniform, not able to serve in that capacity
anymore. So, you know, we know the transition
can be jarring from people that just simply transition
out. They're not even wounded. What has been
your mental health journey leading up to today?
Have you had some high highs and some low lows?
And if so, what have you used to navigate those?
I wouldn't necessarily say that I had low lows.
I think the thing that I struggled with the most
was I did all these really cool things, but I
really struggled to figure out. what I say, to
figure out something that felt like it had a
purpose behind it that I really believed in.
And so when I was in the Marine Corps, I completely
believed in the purpose, which was, you know,
go fight terrorists and, you know, take care
of your fellow Marines. And then when I retired.
The Paralympics was awesome, and I'm so glad
I did it. I had a great rowing partner named
Oksana who's gone on to do really great things.
But the whole time I did rowing, I didn't feel
like I felt out of place a little bit. I kind
of just knew in the back of my mind that it wasn't
going to be a long -term thing for me because
I couldn't figure out what's the greater purpose
in this besides I'm going to go and I'm going
to win a race and I'm going to look cool. Rowing,
I knew was just going to be limited. It wasn't
where I needed to be. That's kind of why I retired
from rowing and went on to the next thing, which
was my bike ride across the country. Even during
that, I still felt unsettled. I was raising money
for veteran charity, sure, but I still felt a
little bit unsettled during that. That was a
little bit more confusing. I didn't know why
that didn't feel completely fulfilling. Because
I was raising money for veteran charities. And
then also the whole time, people would keep asking
me to speak. I would get into a town, and there
would be a reception, and the reception would
say, and now Rob is going to say a few words.
And I didn't want to say any words. I just wanted
to ride my bike. That's all I was there to do.
Ride my bike, and here's my donation link if
you want to donate. I don't want to tell you
what to do. That's kind of how I saw it. And
then I tried to make the Paralympics again for
triathlon and, you know, didn't work out. But
I kind of realized shortly after that, after
I quit on that, you know, what was going on at
the end of the bike ride. And it was that I had
been denying this intrinsic need that I had and
that all people have, which is to be a leader.
the the intrinsic need to lead as my my boss
dave burke wrote out in his book so we all have
the need to lead and that's what i realized that's
why both those things didn't didn't feel fulfilling
it's because i wasn't i wasn't leading i was
i was actually denying the opportunity and the
the call to lead and when i realized that i kind
of realized that at the same time as i recognized
this whole thing i write about in the book about
how I just noticed that every veteran, it seemed
like the perception of veterans had been shifting
from being strong heroes to broken heroes. I
don't know if you can name me a movie where when
the veteran gets home from war, they're not crazy
or they're not on the cusp of implosion. It doesn't
exist. Every veteran character is a thousand
-yard stare. Every single one. And I didn't like
how that was the perception that was starting
to formulate around veterans, even if it came
from kind of a good place. I didn't like it because
it didn't represent me and it didn't represent
the vast majority of my friends or the vast majority
of veterans. And so I saw that issue. I recognized
that I had an intrinsic need to lead and I wasn't
doing it. And then the month of marathons popped
into my head or just the idea of running a bunch
of marathons popped into my head. And it clicked.
And I'm like, that's what I got to do. I have
to take ownership of this problem. I have to
lead. And it's going to be even better because
I get to do it in a way that really resonates
with me that I enjoy, which is these physical,
these big endurance challenges, pushing myself
to the absolute limit. And maybe if I run all
these marathons, I can just put a story out about
there about how it's not necessarily a guarantee
that you're just going to go experience one of
them become a basket case. Absolutely. With that
being said, because I think this is the same
with the first responder profession. I've actually
been talking a lot recently about reframing this
whole conversation. If we're going to talk about
first responder physical or mental health, let's
talk about performance. Because even if someone
is struggling, it's actually the same tools.
If you want to be in a flow state in a firefight,
if I want to be in a flow state looking for a
child in a second floor bedroom. I need to have
that calm mind. I need to have a fit body. So
framing it differently and giving the hope, because
this is the same with medical retirement. Well,
I've got 100 % disability, but I'm not allowed
to have a job now. There's a guy trying to take
pictures of me if I pick my kid up, et cetera,
et cetera. It is a very destructive way of looking
at it. So I think reframing it with the post
-traumatic growth, the U2 .0 after the stuff
that you've been through and working through
it, whether it's rehabbing a back injury or...
working through mental trauma the the excitement
that the other side of this is and you're a perfect
example rob in 2026 now all of a sudden you've
got that person that was just blown up has that
to look forward to has that to aim for rather
than like you said the kind of you know born
on the fourth of july you know captain don vietnam
vet you represent it with yeah i mean yeah post
-traumatic growth exact post -traumatic leadership
You know what I mean? That's what we're really
trying to do, not just grow, but also lead other
people. Because even when I tell the story about
the pirate hat when I first got back home, even
then, and I wasn't actively saying, oh, I need
to lead in this situation. I was just thinking
about how I could help other people. I was thinking
about how I could help my mom. But that's leadership.
How can you support the team? How can you support
the people that you care about? That is leadership.
That's what cover and move is. That's the fundamental
thing that we teach about teamwork. It's the
most fundamental thing in leadership is how can
I help the team? And you can help people even
when you have been traumatized by something.
There's always something that you can do. I say
this in my muster brief. There's always something
that you can do to help the people around you,
to help the people that you care about. That
is what facilitates growth, and that is what
leadership is all about. So yeah, post -traumatic
leadership. And at the same time too, I don't
want to necessarily – I'm not trying to say that
there aren't people that do legitimately struggle
from traumatic events. It does happen. With the
month of marathons, I just wanted to point out
to people that that's not the only thing. It's
not the only possibility. In fact, the vast majority
of the time, it's not what happens. So I just
wanted to make sure that people were aware that
there are two sides. There are two things that
can happen. There's more than one thing. It's
not just war, traumatized, broken individual.
Yeah. Well, even I mean, I've heard so many,
so many VA stories when it comes to mental health
and the tools that are being given, not saying
that the people in the system don't have good
intentions, but the system itself, you know,
it's prescribing meds, it's talk therapy at best,
you know, and then we've got, you know, psychedelics
and equine therapy and things over here that
are working really well. And it's, you know.
It's getting people to have the hope that they
can heal because, you know, a number of times
I've heard in the fire service side, the kind
of EAP Russian roulette, we call it, where they're
given a generic list of therapists and they go
and they sit with them and the therapist is in
tears and they say they can't help them and they
walk out. And some of them got to tell me on
the show how many didn't because that was the
final nail in the coffin. You know, so giving
hope, even if people are struggling, it's like
everyone's holding on to a piece of rope that
the good end people are doing really well on
the bad end. People are really struggling. But
if you pull the rope, everyone moves the right
direction, including the one who's almost in
the pit. So whereas if it's a doom and gloom,
you know, shoulder shrugging conversation, then,
you know, there's a lot of people that are going
to fall through the cracks. Yeah, well, I mean,
the more the more people hear about veterans
or first responders that. overcome trauma uh
the more people will believe it's possible for
people they know and and for themselves and then
when they find out about the story they can go
what did that guy do that's why so many people
can overcome you know alcoholism and drug addiction
all these things because tons of people have
done it and they've created a program called
alcoholics anonymous that has a step -by -step
program that you can follow and so yeah if you
if you are struggling with that kind of thing
you need to take ownership of making sure that
you get healed and one of the ways you can do
that is to go see what other people have done
and the more stories like you know mine and like
people that have overcome things uh the more
stories like that get out there the more hope
people will have and if you believe that you
can make it happen then you're going to keep
trying until you make it happen and it's really
awesome that even though there's these uh it's
awesome to see that even though there are these
gaps in coverage with the va and with uh first
responder you know uh i guess government organizations
that are responsible for uh you know ongoing
what what disability uh compensation for first
responders i don't know if it probably doesn't
exactly work the same way as the military but
that kind of thing even though there are gaps
there there's all sorts of people that are taking
ownership of filling those gaps like you know
non -veteran non -profits like Semper Fi Fund
or Tom and the Towers that we you know we met
at there's people that are filling those gaps
uh there's people that are sending people down
to you know whatever Mexico or wherever they're
going to do psychedelic treatment so there's
people that are taking ownership of that and
making it happen even though you know we have
roadblocks in the way and that's what taking
ownership is all about is just figuring out how
to make it happen Well, that's a perfect segue
for the last thing I want to talk about before
we go to some closing questions. Classic example,
I talk about this a lot, Purdue Pharma, OxyContin,
FDA approved drug caused the opioid crisis that's
still killing 100 ,000 Americans today. MDMA
led psychotherapy recently, they tried to get
it through and the FDA denied it. So with that
lens and shifting it slightly, knowing that There
are a lot of people that make a lot of money
when Americans are sick. Drug companies, surgical
implants, and then the things that make them
sick, fast food, etc. And so the question is,
where's the checks and balances for really forging
physical health in the US? We've seen PE programs
disappear, shit food served in schools, etc.
Shifting that to the military side. And the moral
injury, especially of a lot of our vets, you
know, the way that Afghanistan ended and, you
know, some of the information about Iraq, you
know, after the facts, you know, was it actually
correct that some of these young men and women
were sent there in the first place? The responsibility
of when we send our children to war is a very
important concept. But if there are companies,
you know, the industrial military complex that
make trillions of dollars when we are at war.
then where are those checks and balances to make
sure that we only go to war? Obviously, World
War II is a good example when absolutely necessary.
So as a veteran who's obviously very, very vested
in this whole thing, king for a day again, what
have we got to change to make sure that our children
aren't dragged into a conflict that we should
never have been to in the first place? Oh man,
you're asking me to solve one of the most complex
issues in the entire world. If I could wave a
magic wand, I would just have everybody get along.
I would just eliminate the need for war entirely.
I don't think even a king – that's something
that only God himself could do. I mean that's
a tough question, but I also still think that
– From our perspective, the people that send
people to war are the ones that are in charge
of the military. And so the way that we affect
that is be more involved, just like we talked
about in the very, very beginning. Vote for people
that you don't think are going to be apt to send
us into war. And if they do, then you got to
vote them out. You got to use your voice to try
and select the people that are going to be responsible
with that. Yeah, just take ownership of what
you can. I mean, I don't think there's really
a simple answer to that question because there's
so many different layers to it. But just figure
out what you can do to spend time with your own
kids and raise them up to be good people. If
everybody did that, that would go a long way
to helping with this issue. But it's just take
extreme ownership of everything in your life,
really. If everybody raised their kids up to
be good people, we're going to be a lot less
likely to have to go to war. So I would just
do the same exact thing pretty much that I did
earlier, and that's just be more involved. Take
more ownership of everything in your world. Put
aside Netflix. Read a book. Spend more time with
your kids. Figure out how to teach them better.
Figure out the moral lesson that you need them
to learn. Figure out how you can do that. All
these different things. Just stop being distracted
and get more involved so that we can all – hopefully
live in peace i agree yeah man that's a big big
question no but i mean it says it's complicated
but it's actually not you know it's it's fundamentally
very simple what we need to do and again we're
talking about humanity as a whole but It goes
back to what we were talking as well. If there
are companies that are paying people to become
president and they make weapons and uniforms
and MREs and rebuilding infrastructure and bases,
then that's an issue. So raising good people
and having a political system that you can't
buy your way into, left, right, whatever, it's
an important conversation because it's not their
children that we send to war, ever. I think it's
an important objective, but who am I to have
this conversation? That's why I always ask the
veterans. They're the ones out there. They're
the ones that have this. I really like Sebastian
Junger in Tribe wrote about the Iroquois, and
they had a leader for peacetime and a different
leader for wartime. And usually the leader, I
think, from the peacetime was female, and then
the wartime leader was male. And I love that
concept. You have diplomat, you avoid war at
all costs. And then if God forbid, it's, you
know, unavoidable, then you go all in and you
support the warriors fully. Yeah. I mean, that's,
that's the ideal. It's as a, as a last resort
for sure. But how do you, yeah. How do you make
that happen? It's a, when you have all sorts
of different incentives and things occurring
like that, really, it's just. You've got to control
the things that you control that are around you,
which is your family, your role, the things that
you do, what you choose to do with your time.
And if you want to affect that issue, do all
that stuff in a way that helps with that particular
thing. Absolutely. All right, well, shifting
to some closing questions. We talked about your
book, Put Your Legs On. Is there a book written
by someone else that you love to recommend? It
can be related to our discussion today or completely
unrelated. Well, I mean, my... Obvious answers,
considering I work for Ashland Front, is obviously
going to be Extreme Ownership, The Dichotomy
of Leadership, Need to Lead, written by Jocko
Leif and Dave Burke. So definitely read all those
three books. But I'll give you something a little
bit different. There's so many books that I've
read. One of my favorite books is Skeletons on
the Zahara. Have you ever read Endurance? Shackleton?
I own it. I just haven't had the time to read
it yet because I'm finishing up. A lot of people
have read Endurance, but this book, Skeletons
on the Zahara, it's like that, but it's in the
desert. So, you know, this ship crash lands on
Western Africa. They get taken as slaves, and
it's just about how the captain of the ship and
all the other people. well it's about how they
all survive but the captain of the ship is trying
to figure out how he can get his crew back to
uh back to america and he you know strikes strikes
a deal with this guy gets himself bought and
then he just convinces this guy i don't ruin
the entire story but it convinces this guy that
just bought him that if you get me to the consulate
and I forget the name of the town. If you get
me to the consulate in Northern Africa, the guy's
my friend, and he'll pay you for it. He'll buy
us from you. And he has no idea who the person
is. He's never met the guy before. And the whole
time, the guy that bought the captain is sitting
there going, if this is a lie, I'm going to kill
you and your friends. And he's like, nope, it's
true. He's my best friend. He'll buy us. Then
they get to right outside the town, and the guy
goes, write me a letter. Give me a letter to
your friend and I'm going to go and let him know
what happens and we'll see if he pays you. And
if it turns out it's a lie, I'm going to slit
your throat. And there isn't even an American
consulate. It's a British consulate. So he just
writes a letter to the British consulate. Hey,
we've never met. This is what happened. Please
buy us. I'm sure the American government will
pay you back. And he takes a letter and the guy
reads the letter and he goes. All right, we'll
buy you. And then he buys all the guys that are
with the captain. And then most of them go home,
but the captain stays and continues to go out
and try and find more and more of his crew. So
it's just a really good example of leadership,
of sacrifice, and really just a really good example
of the things that human beings can endure. And
still come out the other side. I love stories
where the bad guys are the good guys too. Yeah,
definitely the good guys in that one, for sure.
All right. What about film, television, or documentaries?
Well, the obvious answers for television is going
to be The Band of Brothers, The Pacific. I'm
a big comedy guy. I like to laugh a lot. So anything
that's a comedy, I think, would be my go -to.
I just like to laugh. You started writing stand
-up jokes when you were young. Now you've been
taught how to be a professional speaker. Has
there been any idea at all of maybe pursuing
stand -up as an actual profession? I was pursuing
it somewhat in 2017. I was living in Vienna,
Virginia, and I was going into D .C. for open
mics. And that was my plan. I was going to...
I was like, this is what I want to do. I want
to go be a stand -up comedian. But then I also
had the idea for the month of marathons. And
over time, I realized that those two things were
kind of antithesis to each other. Because in
order to be prepared for the month of marathons,
I had to train physically and have a really good,
very healthy body. And doing stand -up comedy,
I kind of figured was... I had to be up all night
and I didn't really feel like that was going
to be conducive to training. So I decided just
to do the one thing and I did the month of marathons
and that kind of led to the speaking. And so
that kind of led me in that direction. That being
said, I use my sense of humor all the time in
the, in the workshops I teach. So there's a huge
component of, of laughter, of humor, of, you
know, just having a fun time and enjoying everybody,
enjoying yourself when I teach a keynote or when
I do a workshop. So I am able to scratch that
funny bone a lot during workshops. And I think
it's really effective. I think one of the most
effective things you can do to build a relationship
with somebody quickly is to make them laugh.
Because there's a little bit of awkwardness whenever
you first meet somebody. And if you can make
this person laugh, basically what's happening
is they like you because people like people that
make them laugh. But at the same time, you said
a joke. they laugh at it you kind of just work
together on something you work together to overcome
this little bit of awkwardness and now you're
kind of good friends a good example this is when
you're in the elevator with somebody you can
just stand there and both stare at the wall or
you could crack a joke about how the elevator
sucks or something and the other person laughs
and now it's it's not awkward anymore now you're
you're talking to each other so i think humor
and laughter go a long way to building a quick
relationship and that's very important when you're
When you're a leadership instructor, because
you're getting up in front of an audience that
has no idea who you are and you have to develop
a rapport with them very quickly. So I think
being funny is a really good way to make that
happen in a limited sense. Brilliant. That makes
perfect sense. All right. Well, next question.
Is there a person that you recommend to come
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders, military and associated professions
of the world? Yeah, I mean, you had Danny on
yet? Danny Zeem? I have not, no. And when you
mentioned it earlier, I was like, I probably
need to get Danny on if he's the firefighter
in that show. Yeah, I mean, I think he'd be great.
I think Danny would be great. There's a lot of
people I could recommend, I guess. I mean, but
that'd be my, especially since it's first responders
that we're talking about. I mean, if you get
Joe Rogan on, that'd be awesome. Yeah, he's coming
on tomorrow. Yeah, if you get Sean Ryan, you
know, all these people. No, I think Danny would
be a great guest for you to have on too. And
I'll let him know that I suggested you or suggested
him. What about Oksana? I think I came across
her. Yeah, she'd be a great guest. Because I
think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think she was
in the documentary The Weight of Gold as well,
talking about the mental health side of it. I
might be wrong, though, but I've been following
her for quite a long time. Are you still in contact
with her? Because she'd be another great person
to get on, I think. Yeah, I've got her. Well,
I have what used to be her phone number, unless
she's changed it. But yeah, she wrote her own
memoir called The Hard Parts, which is very powerful.
Very impactful memoir. So it's got yours truly
in it. A little bit of a different perspective.
Her perspective on what I was like back then,
which is always interesting. What's the discrepancy?
Oh, I don't know. I don't know if there was a
discrepancy. There's a discrepancy from what
I remember myself being like. That doesn't mean
that it's wrong, though. It's just not how I
remember it. I think I was a little bit more...
I wasn't the most open individual at that point
in my life, but I, I, I think I probably, I was
portrayed as a little bit more, a little bit
colder, a little bit more standoffish than I
remember being. But again, that's not necessarily,
that doesn't mean that it was wrong because it's,
it's her memoir. It's her perspective. And I
only remember things from my perspective. So
she could very well be a hundred percent accurate.
Yeah. Or the publisher or the editor is like,
yeah, you know what? Rob seems so friendly in
this. We're going to change it. Yeah, I was definitely
a little bit more standoffish than I would be
right now because I just got out of the Marine
Corps. All my friends were Marines. I didn't
want to build. I didn't want to be a part of
a different team. And that was part of my problem
in rowing. That's something that I could have
done a lot, a lot, a lot better was be a better
teammate to her. So that's one of my own failures
from all this stuff. was that I could have been
a lot better of a teammate. That being said,
I don't remember being quite as cold as, you
know, in her memoir. But I'm not, you know, it's,
I could very well be wrong. It's just her perspective
and it's my perspective. And I just, I can only
write about what I remember. Yeah. All right.
Well, the last area before we go to where people
can find your book and reach out to you, what
do you do to decompress? What do I do to decompress?
Um, I, I find that, you know, working out decompresses
me cause I get to go in the gym and just, uh,
listen to some music or listen to a podcast and
just focus on, on that for a while. Uh, when
I'm out on a run, I'll have a lot of really good
thoughts when I'm out running, going out there
with something in my mind. And sometimes I'll
think of something, I'll stop it. I'll type it
into my little, you know, note, note thing on
my phone. Uh, My wife and I will sit down and
watch a movie on the weekends. Just getting outside,
just spending some quality time with the family
is decompressing as well. Camping, that kind
of stuff. Brilliant. All right. So firstly, where
can people find Put Your Legs On? And then talk
to me about the speaking side as well. Yeah.
Put Your Legs On is on Amazon. If you want a
signed copy, you have to reach out to me, maybe
on Instagram at Rob Jones Journey. Let me know.
I will sign. I have a stack of about 75 books
behind me. I'll sign one of them and I'll send
it out to you. So that's how you get a signed
one. Instagram is at Rob Jones Journey. LinkedIn
is at Rob Jones Journey. And then if you are
interested in leadership training from me or
from one of the amazing instructors at Echelon
Front, that is echelonfront .com. Instagram is
at Echelon Front. LinkedIn, same thing. Brilliant.
Well, I want to thank you again. The first time,
obviously, we led through a lot of the things
that we've kind of skirted over this time, but
such an incredible conversation. But to revisit
and then get a little bit more philosophical
about your journey and some of your perspectives
and what you're doing now has been amazing. So
I want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thanks, James. Appreciate it,
brother.