WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by yet another incredible

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company that I stand behind fully, and that is

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Bubs Naturals. Now, I've not only used Bubs products

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for four years now, but I've also had the founder,

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Sean Lake, on the show twice. And they are offering

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you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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20 % off your entire order, and I will give you

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that code in a moment. Now, Bubz has a very powerful

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backstory. Glenn Bob Doherty is one of the two

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Navy SEALs killed protecting the CIA facility

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in Benghazi. And wanting to honor his best friend,

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Sean stood up this company. Now, it began with

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their flagship product, which is their collagen.

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And I have to say, as a Brit with really dry

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skin who's now 51, I cannot underline the importance

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of collagen in your diet. I have seen a huge

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positive impact on my skin, nails, hair, and

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most importantly, digestive system. Another thing

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that I use religiously is their MCT creamers.

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That's the part of coconut oil that is good for

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our brain. And they come in dairy and non -dairy,

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depending on your diet. Now, I started taking

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Bub's latest product, creatine, about three months

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ago. And that was primarily because it's been

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proven to improve cognition and brain health.

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But not only did I witness that, I also saw an

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improvement in my performance. my lean muscle

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mass, and even a reduction in inflammation and

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sports injury pain. Now in addition, Bubz makes

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apple cider vinegar gummies, vitamin C, and their

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hydration product Hydrate or Die. And several

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of these products are also NSF certified, which

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is the highest level of certification as far

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as efficacy and cleanliness. Now, one of the

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most important elements of this company, in my

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opinion, is that they are a social business,

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meaning 10 % of their profits go to charity.

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And in this case, that is the Glenn Doherty Foundation.

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Now, as I mentioned before, they are offering

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you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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20 % off your entire order if you use the code

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BTS at bubsnaturals .com. And if you want to

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hear more about the products, the backstory,

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and how Sean used Glenn's story to help other

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veterans, listen to episodes 558 and 1055 of

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the Behind the Shield podcast. Welcome to the

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Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name

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is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute

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honor to welcome on the show Dr. Pam Crisco and

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Phil Danes from Roots to Thrive. Now, in this

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conversation, we discuss a host of topics from

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Pam's journey into the wildland fire service,

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her transition into medicine, Phil's journey

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into becoming a psychedelic practitioner, using

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psychedelics to help first responders, the creation

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of Roots to Thrive, ketamine therapy, forging

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resilience, and so much more. Now, before we

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get to this incredible conversation, as I say

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every week, please just take a moment. go to

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whichever app you listen to this on subscribe

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to the show leave feedback and leave a rating

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you...

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Dr. Pam Crisco and Phil Danes. Enjoy. Well, Phil

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and Pam, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you to our mutual friend, Steve

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Farina, for making this introduction. And secondly,

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I want to welcome you both onto the Behind the

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Shield podcast today. Great to be here. Thanks,

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James. Yeah, thank you, James. And thank you,

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Steve, for the intro. Well, let's start with

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you individually. Pam, where are we finding you

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on planet Earth today? Yeah, today I usually

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find me on Cortez Island in British Columbia,

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but today I happen to be in Washington State

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doing some speaking. But yeah, my home is in

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British Columbia and on the unceded territory

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of the Clahoo's First Nations. Brilliant. And

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Phil, what about you? I am at home today on Vancouver

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Island in a little town called Ladysmith. in

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British Columbia, and that's the traditional

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non -seeded territory of the Stamenis First Nation.

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You have a snowboard in the background, but one

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of my Canadian friends told me that the snow

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has been awful recently. Have you got any around

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you? Actually, interestingly, in the last two

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weeks or so, they've got a... Pretty good size

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dump on Mount Washington, which is about an hour

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and a half from us, but haven't made it up yet.

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Okay. Gotcha. All right. Well, I'd love to start

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at the beginning of each of your timeline. So

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let's start with you, Pam. Tell me where you

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were born and tell me a little bit about your

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family dynamic, what your parents did, how many

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siblings. Wow. Okay. Fantastic. I was born in

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Edmonton, Alberta in Canada. I never really lived

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there at all, but I'm the oldest of three girls.

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So there's a 12 -year spread between me and my

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youngest sibling. I'm an aunt nine times over.

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I've got nine nieces and nephews and no children

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myself because I am too selfish. I like freedom.

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And my parents are fantastic. A couple, Elaine

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and Dave. My mom went to school for radio broadcast

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and then did a whole lot of other things. And

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my dad was an NHL hockey player. And so that

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really defined our lives as we moved around North

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America, depending on where training camp was,

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what team he was playing with. And then when

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we finished all that, we landed in northern Alberta

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in a small little town where I finished high

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school. went on to university after that. So

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that gets me to that far. When we talk about

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ice hockey, and especially in the mental health

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space, there's a lot of conversations about not

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only trauma and childhood trauma, but also TBIs

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and concussions. When you reflect back now, I'm

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assuming that probably wasn't as much of a discussion

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when your dad was playing. Were there any kind

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of issues or struggles he had back then as a

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consequence of what he did for his sport? Yeah,

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well, that's really interesting because I'm actually,

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we're at the beginning steps of working with

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the NHL players. um alumni on this and we have

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a number of folks that we've been working with

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um on a couple things some microdosing uh preliminary

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stuff working but yeah you know back in the day

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when my dad played hockey they didn't wear helmets

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or they chose to wear helmets they didn't wear

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mouth like they didn't wear anything and in fact

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they like the freedom and and we were just having

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a big conversation about this is that there was

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a lot more respect on the ice about that like

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there wasn't all the dirty play with the sticks

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people are a lot more careful and if you threw

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a punch you threw a punch and you it you fought

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to the end right you weren't fighting uh ridiculously

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because of all the protection that they were

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wearing but as a result with with folks like

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my dad who you know the alumni there but also

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hockey players and rugby players and we're seeing

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that huge uptick in ce cte which not only is

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showing up as early dementia but is also showing

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up as a high level of depression high level of

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anxiety and social anxiety and a high level of

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alcohol use disorder And so we're really trying

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to help get a leash or get a connection to these

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players because it's actually fixable. If we

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can get them into psilocybin or ketamine sessions,

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what happens is they start regaining some of

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the function. They get the immediate antidepressant

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effect. And then the longer -term microdosing

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has been showing some really great promise. So

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we have a lot of players who are now alumni because

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now they can talk about it. When you're a professional

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athlete, you cannot talk about using these. medicines

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and so yeah i could talk all day on that but

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i won't but it's it's a really exciting area

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and these guys are suffering so a lot of a lot

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of these men who are in their 60s and 70s you

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know a lot of them are sitting at home watching

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sports and drinking a lot and that's their life

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rinse repeat day after day and they're socially

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isolating because of the anxiety i had uh clint

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viner chuck on the show who was the goalie that

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got his throat cut open on national television

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and Prior to that, he was an enforcer as well,

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I think, or that kind of player, at least not

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an enforcer because he was a goalie. And his

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struggles with alcoholism and depression, it's

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the same thing. And you look at MMA, you look

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at boxing, you look at rugby, you look at football,

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and then you look at the impact of sleep deprivation

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on the first responders, which mimics TBI. The

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myelin sheath gets broken down. And when you're

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talking about that retiree, whether it's a sport

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or a first responder or a veteran it's the same

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kind of image so i think that this is so applicable

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across the board of everyone that's listening

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but the hope that there are solutions you know

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when i was young in you know early medicine like

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science we were told that the brain once once

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you broke it you broke it that was it but now

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we're understanding neuroplasticity and that

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you can actually come back from some of these

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injuries Yeah, that's exactly what we were taught.

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Basically at 25, you're done. That's what you

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had. That was your brain. And now it's so exciting.

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That's what I love about science is it's always

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evolving. We're never done. As we advance, every

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time we advance and every time we get better

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information, we have to pivot and we have to

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kind of clean the slate of what we thought we

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knew because we're really just truly toddlers

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when it comes to this science, which is exciting.

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Why is it that... When it comes to the humility

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needed to say the way that we thought things

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went, it has changed. It's not actually as we

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thought it was. Why is it such a struggle for

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communities like science or politics or my profession

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when we get to a point where we realize the way

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we do it isn't working? it's so hard to get people

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to steer the ship to a different direction. What

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have you seen as far as the struggles of saying

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we were wrong and that being okay, because we

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did the best with what we had before, but there

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is a better way of doing it now. Yeah, well,

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and I think that really ties into the whole thing

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about Roots to Thrive and what we've been doing

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at Roots to Thrive is, you know, I think of all

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of us, we kind of live in as a bell curve, right?

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There's always at the front of that bell curve,

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there's the edge runners or the courageous people,

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the ones that are grabbing and going like, hey,

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this is new. This is exciting. This is where

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the innovation is. It's the same in medicine

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and science. At the front of that is where all

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the innovation and all the fun is. That's where

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Roots to Thrive likes to play is like, how can

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we use the best science and the best techniques

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to help people so that they can get back to their

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lives and do what they really want to do? And

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then a good portion of scientists and doctors

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and nurses are kind of in that middle. You know,

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some are more on the middle front where they're

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leaning in, they're interested. And then there's

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a whole group that are on the backside of that.

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And I unfortunately think we give way too much

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energy to the backside, trying to convince the

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dinosaurs to catch up. And I think we really

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should just ignore the dinosaurs and run faster

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and go faster and innovate and just let them

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go extinct. who is just an absolute brilliant

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woman, says, you know, science only advances

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with every death, which means like as the old

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guard dies off, science advances. It's not her

00:12:37.970 --> 00:12:39.789
saying it's actually attributable to somebody

00:12:39.789 --> 00:12:44.210
else, but she reminds me that a lot. And I think

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just reiterating, we have to ignore the old school.

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and we have to we have to stay on the leading

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edge of what is best for people what is best

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for innovation and what is what makes a better

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world for everyone and and unfortunately we seem

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to get stuck in that middle place and go how

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do we change the stigma how do we change minds

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we don't we leave them behind we leave them behind

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and let them do whatever they do back there while

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we create a better world out front and roots

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to thrive has always been that way we've always

00:13:15.139 --> 00:13:18.179
been innovative we have an innovative lead on

00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:21.639
our team we research in the areas nobody else

00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.000
has researched we constantly quality improve

00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:28.799
the program and that that's scientific right

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that is what scientists do you lean you lean

00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:34.360
forward and you go and you ask the questions

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no one's ever asked and go can we do better absolutely

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i i work with an organization that um works with

00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.700
darpa And I didn't even know what DARPA was until

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someone educated me a couple of years ago. But

00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:51.580
any crazy idea that they have in the military

00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:54.019
or in science, like I think, you know, Phil could

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fly if he just puts his snowboard on and flaps

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his arms. And they're like, all right, well,

00:13:58.259 --> 00:14:00.620
here's millions of dollars. Go prove that you're

00:14:00.620 --> 00:14:03.460
wrong. And if you don't, then, oh, OK, we just

00:14:03.460 --> 00:14:05.440
discovered Wi -Fi. We just discovered satellites

00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.840
or whatever the next thing is. And so if we look

00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:12.080
at the front leaders of all the innovation in

00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:14.679
the world that isn't just profit based, like,

00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:17.299
you know, a lot of medicines, for example, that

00:14:17.299 --> 00:14:19.600
comes from that front. You know, those thought

00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:22.039
leaders as people that are crazy enough to believe

00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.179
that something is true, even though no one else

00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:26.899
believes it. So I couldn't agree more. I don't

00:14:26.899 --> 00:14:29.879
focus on on the the people that are pulling the

00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:31.659
opposite direction. I believe there's the middle

00:14:31.659 --> 00:14:34.019
portion that you can sway towards the front.

00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:39.100
That's who we need to focus our energy on. All

00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:40.820
right. Well, Phil, let's kind of walk you through.

00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:43.039
So tell me where you were born. Tell me a little

00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:45.539
bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

00:14:45.539 --> 00:14:48.279
did for a living and how many siblings. Yeah,

00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:52.679
thank you. Nice to hear a little bit of history

00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:55.100
about you, Pam, and get to know you on a little

00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:57.879
deeper level, hear about your family. So I was

00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:01.759
born in Portland, Oregon, to my parents, George

00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.460
and Leslie Dames. And I've got two siblings.

00:15:06.059 --> 00:15:11.059
I'm the youngest of three. I have a sister two

00:15:11.059 --> 00:15:14.639
years older than me. Amy and my brother is named

00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:18.460
Bumper. Yes, his real name is Bumper. And he's

00:15:18.460 --> 00:15:21.940
five years older than me. Similar to Pam, my

00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:25.960
dad played professional football for a couple

00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.480
of years. He had a short stint with the 49ers

00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:30.889
and then played in the... Canadian Football League

00:15:30.889 --> 00:15:33.070
for a little bit of time. So there's been an

00:15:33.070 --> 00:15:36.830
interesting, as he has aged, seeing his health

00:15:36.830 --> 00:15:40.970
be impacted by the rough sport of football and

00:15:40.970 --> 00:15:45.029
the difference in helmets when he played and

00:15:45.029 --> 00:15:49.190
the concussion level that he had back in the

00:15:49.190 --> 00:15:51.730
day has certainly impacted him as he's aged.

00:15:54.460 --> 00:15:57.759
Yeah, we moved up and down the West Coast between

00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:02.259
Oregon and California as I was growing up and

00:16:02.259 --> 00:16:05.320
ultimately landed in central Oregon and then

00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:09.659
found my way up to married a Canadian and found

00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:14.580
our way up to Vancouver Island in 2009. Yeah,

00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:16.759
I think I touched on all the points you were

00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.980
looking for. You should really move into your

00:16:20.980 --> 00:16:23.200
spouse a bit more because your spouse is an amazing

00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.860
human. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Pam. Yeah. So my

00:16:26.860 --> 00:16:29.860
partner is Shannon, Shannon Dames, and she's,

00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:33.399
Pam mentioned we have an innovation lead on our

00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.700
team and that is Shannon. She's a true, both

00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:39.940
Pam and Shannon are very true innovators in this

00:16:39.940 --> 00:16:45.269
field. And I believe they are. yeah, absolutely

00:16:45.269 --> 00:16:48.029
leaders in this field and not afraid to run ahead

00:16:48.029 --> 00:16:52.289
and innovate. And Shannon studied resilience

00:16:52.289 --> 00:16:56.289
at the University of Calgary and Roots to Thrive

00:16:56.289 --> 00:16:59.269
was essentially born out of the research that

00:16:59.269 --> 00:17:04.950
she completed. She's a nurse by trade and was

00:17:04.950 --> 00:17:08.690
very curious and intrigued by the level of burnout

00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:12.069
that nurses were experiencing in her work and

00:17:12.069 --> 00:17:15.990
was. So wanted to study it as to what was the

00:17:15.990 --> 00:17:18.789
root cause of the burnout and why were nurses

00:17:18.789 --> 00:17:23.569
dropping like flies in the different hospitals

00:17:23.569 --> 00:17:28.190
that she worked in. And yeah, so Roots to Thrive

00:17:28.190 --> 00:17:31.509
was born out of that research. And ultimately,

00:17:31.569 --> 00:17:35.910
she created a resilience program, which was Roots

00:17:35.910 --> 00:17:40.410
to Thrive. After it was created, after a little

00:17:40.410 --> 00:17:44.470
while, it was connected to PAM. And the innovative

00:17:44.470 --> 00:17:47.890
idea of what if we took that resilience program

00:17:47.890 --> 00:17:52.670
and wove in ketamine -assisted therapy, what

00:17:52.670 --> 00:17:56.460
would that look like? So her and Pam. I remember

00:17:56.460 --> 00:18:00.839
the early conversations and just listening to

00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.380
the two of them talk on the phone or on Zoom

00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:06.619
and hearing them go back and forth. I was like,

00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.960
wow, watch out. These two are going to do something

00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:13.299
pretty amazing. So, yeah, Shannon has been a

00:18:13.299 --> 00:18:16.700
huge, huge part of this organization and continues

00:18:16.700 --> 00:18:22.490
to be. I get to take all the innovative ideas

00:18:22.490 --> 00:18:24.369
that the two of them have and the rest of our

00:18:24.369 --> 00:18:27.569
team and just kind of operationalize them. That's

00:18:27.569 --> 00:18:31.109
where I get to step in. So it's an absolute pleasure

00:18:31.109 --> 00:18:35.589
to get to witness not only the teamwork together,

00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:39.730
but then the impact that our program has on individuals

00:18:39.730 --> 00:18:43.549
that come through the different programs. What

00:18:43.549 --> 00:18:46.269
were the elements that she identified were causing

00:18:46.269 --> 00:18:50.680
burnout in nurses? The boy, I wish she was here

00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:52.940
to answer these questions because she could answer

00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:57.700
them way better than me. Really, the root of

00:18:57.700 --> 00:19:02.059
it and the root of our program essentially is

00:19:02.059 --> 00:19:09.500
authentic connection, community, having a space

00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:13.500
where individuals can just show up as they are

00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:17.319
and they're going to be received and held in

00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.779
compassion. So there are different work environments

00:19:20.779 --> 00:19:25.779
that some folks would consider toxic. And in

00:19:25.779 --> 00:19:29.779
those toxic environments... Burnout just eventually

00:19:29.779 --> 00:19:33.640
happens. So a common term that we use in our

00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:35.839
program and one that she used in her research

00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.259
quite a bit was unconditional positive regard.

00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.880
So when you are in relationship with others and

00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:44.500
you are held in unconditional positive regard,

00:19:44.819 --> 00:19:50.720
that is a very powerful mechanism to avoid burnout.

00:19:51.470 --> 00:19:54.990
And in our program and what her research showed

00:19:54.990 --> 00:19:58.769
was that when you can be in those spaces where

00:19:58.769 --> 00:20:03.430
you feel safe enough to show up as you are, regardless

00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:07.089
of what's happening in your life, be held and

00:20:07.089 --> 00:20:10.869
kind of mirrored unconditional positive regard,

00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:14.670
it's an incredibly powerful tool to increase

00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:18.569
resilience, whether in a personal setting or

00:20:18.569 --> 00:20:22.369
a professional setting. In the nine years I've

00:20:22.369 --> 00:20:27.150
been doing this and 1200 plus episodes now, one

00:20:27.150 --> 00:20:30.049
of the things that really, I would say debunked

00:20:30.049 --> 00:20:35.029
is the right word, but one of the things that

00:20:35.029 --> 00:20:38.089
became far more prevalent in the mental health

00:20:38.089 --> 00:20:40.849
conversation wasn't the calls that these men

00:20:40.849 --> 00:20:44.049
and women had seen. It was unaddressed childhood

00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:46.849
trauma. Sleep deprivation was a massive one,

00:20:46.910 --> 00:20:49.529
but then organizational betrayal. And you have

00:20:49.529 --> 00:20:51.789
these men and women that wear the patch on their

00:20:51.789 --> 00:20:54.349
shoulder and they literally would die for a complete

00:20:54.349 --> 00:20:57.730
stranger. God forbid it came across that. And

00:20:57.730 --> 00:20:59.890
then their own tribe turns their back on them

00:20:59.890 --> 00:21:02.700
or their own tribe throws them under a bus. It

00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:04.460
doesn't surprise me for a second that it was

00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:06.759
the organizational side that really was where

00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:10.220
she dialed in because you can be the most passionate

00:21:10.220 --> 00:21:13.720
first responder and, you know, use all the correct

00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.579
tools. But if the environment that you're in

00:21:16.579 --> 00:21:19.279
is one of betrayal, you know, whether that's

00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:21.660
actually, you know, you did everything right

00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:24.559
and then you got, you know, used as a scapegoat

00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:26.980
or it was just simply. you're being worked into

00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:30.059
the ground and no one's advocating for you. I

00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:32.220
think that's one of the most unspoken elements

00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:35.940
of first responder trauma. And back to that,

00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.500
I want to say one thing that I know is because

00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:41.019
I was a first responder and then I was went into

00:21:41.019 --> 00:21:45.559
medicine is that the reality is what drives us

00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.519
to even get those jobs comes from our childhood,

00:21:48.700 --> 00:21:50.779
right? It comes from I'm not good enough. I'm

00:21:50.779 --> 00:21:53.000
not smart enough. If I just get this job, then

00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.920
my parents will love me or my dad will. go, attaboy,

00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.680
son, way to go. There's just so much of that

00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:01.839
drive. When I got hired on the fire department,

00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:04.500
those were the stories. People were like, yeah,

00:22:04.539 --> 00:22:06.619
you could just feel it in the gutter when we

00:22:06.619 --> 00:22:08.759
were going to calls, sitting in the back of the

00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:13.680
truck talking. That was so present there. What

00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:16.980
was the drive to get there, to be a hero? Same

00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:20.059
in medicine. Medicine has the same thing. It's

00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:24.140
so interesting, these feelings of deficiency.

00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:28.240
that we grow up with drive us to accomplish.

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:31.500
But then there has to be a place where you can

00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:35.279
heal that stuff. So you can just accomplish for

00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.599
just to be a great human, you know, and just

00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:42.579
to be in service to humanity. So it's ubiquitous

00:22:42.579 --> 00:22:46.960
across nursing, medicine. firefighters, police

00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:51.119
officers, paramedics, all the heroes of our society

00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:54.000
that are really in service to humanity. It's

00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.160
so common. Not everyone. There's always exceptions.

00:22:57.420 --> 00:23:00.799
But then when you layer on that, you know, like

00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.460
you've worked so hard to get into that profession

00:23:04.460 --> 00:23:08.519
and then you start having nightmares or you start

00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.359
feeling like as soon as you drive up to the fire

00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.730
hall, you're ready to puke. for the anxiety,

00:23:14.950 --> 00:23:16.730
right? And then you think it's a deficiency of

00:23:16.730 --> 00:23:19.089
yourself. And it's not a deficiency of yourself.

00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:22.150
You're having a normal human reaction to your

00:23:22.150 --> 00:23:25.529
life into your job. Right. And that's what I

00:23:25.529 --> 00:23:29.650
love about like, what what Shannon's research

00:23:29.650 --> 00:23:32.829
brought forward is that the only way to heal

00:23:32.829 --> 00:23:35.490
that is it back in relationship is to get back

00:23:35.490 --> 00:23:38.049
together in communities where you can talk honestly

00:23:38.049 --> 00:23:41.039
about what you're going through and others will

00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.960
hear it and they won't judge you. They'll go,

00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:47.980
yeah, that's logical. I get you. That makes sense

00:23:47.980 --> 00:23:51.140
to me. And then people heal. And we've seen that

00:23:51.140 --> 00:23:53.839
over and over and over with all these professions

00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:58.359
is that when they can come into a group and have

00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:02.259
that experience, wow, what changes happen first

00:24:02.259 --> 00:24:04.539
off. And then you add in the psychedelic therapy

00:24:04.539 --> 00:24:07.329
and it accelerates. that healing but it's in

00:24:07.329 --> 00:24:10.970
it's already in a really strong relational container

00:24:10.970 --> 00:24:13.569
it's not just psychedelics on their own it's

00:24:13.569 --> 00:24:16.250
like you're there with a group of firefighters

00:24:16.250 --> 00:24:20.750
like really digging into what needs to go and

00:24:20.750 --> 00:24:23.009
you all love each other anyways you still it's

00:24:23.009 --> 00:24:26.210
like you're accepted for who you are so you know

00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:28.430
i i just think we have to remember that the reason

00:24:28.430 --> 00:24:31.529
we even got to those applications the reason

00:24:31.529 --> 00:24:36.259
we even applied for these jobs There's often

00:24:36.259 --> 00:24:38.799
that childhood stuff there in the basement that

00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:42.119
we really need to recognize. And probably what

00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:44.720
we should be doing, like my own soapbox on this,

00:24:44.779 --> 00:24:46.619
is when you do get hired on the fire department

00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:49.160
or the police force or get accepted to med school,

00:24:49.299 --> 00:24:51.720
you probably should go through a psychedelic

00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.380
therapy program first and foremost, and then

00:24:55.380 --> 00:25:01.190
continue on into the job. Yeah, Pam, as you're

00:25:01.190 --> 00:25:05.529
sharing, there's a past participant who's a firefighter

00:25:05.529 --> 00:25:07.869
that came through our program. And I'm reminded

00:25:07.869 --> 00:25:12.789
of a struggle that he was having. His grandfather

00:25:12.789 --> 00:25:15.569
was a firefighter. His dad was a firefighter.

00:25:15.569 --> 00:25:18.309
So there's like an automatic, yes, I'm going

00:25:18.309 --> 00:25:22.809
to be a firefighter. And was experiencing this

00:25:22.809 --> 00:25:26.400
incredible level of... experienced trauma just

00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.880
through naturally being a firefighter and what

00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:30.819
he witnessed and the calls that he had to go

00:25:30.819 --> 00:25:36.319
out on. But this real tension between can I do

00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:41.000
this and continue this legacy that's in my family

00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.559
and then feeling the shame coming up around it

00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:47.220
and all the different emotions that were arising

00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:51.119
in him and the pressure to maintain the legacy

00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:58.680
for his sons. He was really wrestling with, can

00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:01.599
I continue on? Is it worth it? What do I need

00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:03.960
to do for my own mental and physical health?

00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:09.099
I was reminded of him as you were sharing that,

00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:13.740
Pam. So I appreciate you bringing that up. It

00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:16.359
echoes something that I've started talking about

00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.279
recently. Again, my understanding of all these

00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:22.119
things are just constantly evolving. But knowing

00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.710
now that... Most of us do have significant events

00:26:26.710 --> 00:26:29.569
when we were younger that have driven us to this

00:26:29.569 --> 00:26:32.609
point, whether you want to make sure someone

00:26:32.609 --> 00:26:34.369
doesn't feel the pain that you did, or you want

00:26:34.369 --> 00:26:36.509
to be the protector, or like you said, you want

00:26:36.509 --> 00:26:38.950
to have that identity, that armor. You want a

00:26:38.950 --> 00:26:41.349
job that's exciting, that's busy enough where

00:26:41.349 --> 00:26:42.789
you don't have to think about the thing beneath

00:26:42.789 --> 00:26:46.049
the thing. There's such a beautiful opportunity

00:26:46.049 --> 00:26:48.950
to say in an orientation of a fire department

00:26:48.950 --> 00:26:51.960
or a police department. The fact that you're

00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:53.680
sitting in these chairs means that you've probably

00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.160
been through some shit. So let's start talking

00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.599
about that right now. If it's buried down, it's

00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:01.740
going to be a fracture to your foundation. But

00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:03.859
if we start talking about it, working through

00:27:03.859 --> 00:27:06.619
it, whether it's talk therapy, whether it's a

00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:08.700
psychedelic journey, whatever it looks like.

00:27:09.339 --> 00:27:12.039
that becomes resilience, that becomes empathy,

00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.700
that becomes a superpower and uniform then, and

00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:16.920
you're going to perform at a higher level. And

00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.880
I like the idea of reframing mental health with

00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:22.259
a performance lens now, rather than the kind

00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:25.759
of doom and gloom, anxiety, depression, suicide,

00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.720
which is a real thing. But kind of like you said,

00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:30.579
with the bell curve, if you forge performance

00:27:30.579 --> 00:27:32.940
at the front. And everyone's hanging on to that

00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:34.880
rope. Even the people in the depths are still

00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:36.819
going to be pulled in the right direction. But

00:27:36.819 --> 00:27:39.920
to acknowledge it at the front door, to get people

00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:41.799
to understand if they work through it, they will

00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:44.960
be a better first responder. I think that will

00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:47.420
be such a powerful conversation that people wouldn't

00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:50.619
feel lost and ashamed because it would be normalized

00:27:50.619 --> 00:27:55.880
from day one then. Yeah, completely. And just

00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:58.400
acknowledging that these are normal responses.

00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.460
These are not abnormal responses. Somewhere in

00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:05.500
the industrial revolution, and especially in

00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:09.140
kind of from the, I think a lot of it came from

00:28:09.140 --> 00:28:11.559
World War II and stuff, like just suck it up

00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:13.559
and get back to work. You know, you've gone,

00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:15.099
you fought for your country, now you come back,

00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:17.240
get a job and get your white picket fence and

00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:18.660
get married and all that sort of stuff. It was

00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:20.519
kind of like, just get on with it, shove it down.

00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:24.039
And it was completely ignored. And now we're

00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:26.140
just going, you know, we're kind of digging ourselves

00:28:26.140 --> 00:28:29.779
out of a lot of these myths. and these are normal

00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:35.119
responses this is how a human responds to trauma

00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.279
this is not a weakness and in fact if you're

00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:40.819
not responding you should be worried like if

00:28:40.819 --> 00:28:43.920
you're not having some sort of visceral reaction

00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:46.619
or some sort of anxiety or depression or something

00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:50.339
or nightmares There's something maybe not so

00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:53.880
normal about not having that. And what I like

00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:57.119
now is I think we are gaining momentum on the

00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:59.140
front end here, that this is not a weakness.

00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:03.140
This is not a character deficit. This is normal.

00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:05.720
And like you said, the sooner we deal with it,

00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:07.819
the sooner we lean into it, the better our life

00:29:07.819 --> 00:29:10.920
is. We keep our marriages. We keep our jobs.

00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:14.099
Our kids get a great parent. We have a lot of

00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:17.309
fun, more laughter. We're not sitting. In a chair,

00:29:17.369 --> 00:29:20.250
drinking beers, watching TV 24 -7. We're out

00:29:20.250 --> 00:29:23.809
there living life. And that's what we see when

00:29:23.809 --> 00:29:26.089
people lean into this work is they get their

00:29:26.089 --> 00:29:29.589
lives back. Absolutely. Well, I want to get to

00:29:29.589 --> 00:29:31.170
your journey into the fire service. Let's go

00:29:31.170 --> 00:29:34.269
back to Phil first. So Phil, as you were going

00:29:34.269 --> 00:29:35.950
through the high school age, what was it you

00:29:35.950 --> 00:29:41.089
were dreaming of becoming? Yeah, thanks for bringing

00:29:41.089 --> 00:29:42.809
it back to that. I totally forgot to mention

00:29:42.809 --> 00:29:46.599
what my parents did for... So my dad worked in

00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:53.019
finance. After he exited football, he was a bond

00:29:53.019 --> 00:29:56.619
trader for a while in the Portland, Oregon area.

00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:59.960
And I really looked up to my dad when I was growing

00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:04.460
up. I was heavily involved in athletics. So there

00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:07.180
was a natural desire to follow in his footsteps.

00:30:07.539 --> 00:30:11.019
And so I was very in competitive athletics, soccer

00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:15.019
and tennis. tennyson university down in california

00:30:15.019 --> 00:30:18.740
and followed in his footsteps and worked in the

00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:21.880
finance field so i either wanted to be an engineer

00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.880
or which was my grandpa he was an aeronautical

00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:29.400
engineer or work in finance as like a stock broker

00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:32.700
financial advisor and when i was in the high

00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:36.099
school age so i studied business and marketing

00:30:36.619 --> 00:30:39.940
in university and ultimately landed in the finance

00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:44.319
industry directly after graduation. Up to this

00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.579
point, has you had any experience with plant

00:30:46.579 --> 00:30:52.059
medicines or any other psychedelic? No, no. The

00:30:52.059 --> 00:30:55.920
household I grew up in was very, very conservative.

00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:04.630
So very kind of shielded from. different medicines,

00:31:04.970 --> 00:31:10.990
whether it be cannabis, LSD, all the psychedelics,

00:31:11.049 --> 00:31:15.049
just very, don't touch those, those aren't good,

00:31:15.190 --> 00:31:19.089
you might, something bad might happen. So there's

00:31:19.089 --> 00:31:23.970
a lot of fear that was kind of ingrained into

00:31:23.970 --> 00:31:27.910
me, and didn't really have any exposure to it

00:31:27.910 --> 00:31:32.009
up until about 10 years ago. Personally, yeah.

00:31:32.150 --> 00:31:37.430
And what was that? 10 years ago? It was actually

00:31:37.430 --> 00:31:41.569
Shannon. She graduated from University of Calgary

00:31:41.569 --> 00:31:51.170
and was very... In her words, she didn't want

00:31:51.170 --> 00:31:54.609
to walk across the stage and graduate at University

00:31:54.609 --> 00:31:57.950
of Calgary. She wanted to go to Peru and dig

00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:01.460
a little deeper into... the studies of resilience.

00:32:01.779 --> 00:32:05.279
So she, and I don't think she would mind me saying

00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:09.559
this, but she did participate in ayahuasca ceremonies

00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:13.660
in Peru, came back and well, number one, the

00:32:13.660 --> 00:32:16.200
experience was incredible for her. The first

00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:20.960
time she really was able to be in her body and

00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:25.960
experience feeling emotions in her body for an

00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:30.119
extended period of time. So there was a very,

00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:34.460
very significant transformational experience

00:32:34.460 --> 00:32:39.680
for her to get away for two or three weeks, participate

00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:45.880
in these ceremonies. And in my mind, in the household

00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:49.359
I grew up in, it was like, holy shit, what are

00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:51.900
you doing? I don't know if you should do this.

00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:59.430
This is scaring me. But she came back. significantly

00:32:59.430 --> 00:33:02.470
changed in a good way, in a very good way, healthy

00:33:02.470 --> 00:33:08.390
way. So in that, I got curious, started doing

00:33:08.390 --> 00:33:11.910
some own work on myself, not necessarily with

00:33:11.910 --> 00:33:15.509
different plant medicines, but really more of

00:33:15.509 --> 00:33:20.769
a focus on community and connection. And at the

00:33:20.769 --> 00:33:23.730
same time, I was transitioning out of the financial

00:33:23.730 --> 00:33:28.150
field, not quite sure what I wanted to do, but

00:33:28.150 --> 00:33:30.369
committed to taking a couple of years off of

00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:34.210
work and spending time with our kids and having

00:33:34.210 --> 00:33:36.390
the space to really define what it is I want

00:33:36.390 --> 00:33:40.150
to do. And ultimately, and that started a men's

00:33:40.150 --> 00:33:45.450
group that with a few guys here on Vancouver

00:33:45.450 --> 00:33:51.369
Island, some. other fathers at my kids' school

00:33:51.369 --> 00:33:53.690
that they went to that were on somewhat of a

00:33:53.690 --> 00:34:01.410
similar path as me. And that was a real, it was

00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:05.690
heavily successful in my own path. Just having

00:34:05.690 --> 00:34:10.349
a space where, an intentional space where men

00:34:10.349 --> 00:34:14.130
of a similar age as myself have similar age kids.

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.920
uh similar professions where we can just gather

00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:21.780
around the fire uh with a nice structure to really

00:34:21.780 --> 00:34:24.260
connect in a meaningful way and authentically

00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:26.900
show up and share what was really coming up for

00:34:26.900 --> 00:34:30.900
us not just be on the surface but dip below the

00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:34.699
surface and talk about emotions and whatnot um

00:34:34.699 --> 00:34:38.860
so that that really kind of launched me into

00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:44.550
this field that the men's group work and uh allowed

00:34:44.550 --> 00:34:48.610
me to embody the experience of being in a group

00:34:48.610 --> 00:34:52.050
that's focused on resilience essentially well

00:34:52.050 --> 00:34:54.909
pam let's roll the clock back then so what were

00:34:54.909 --> 00:34:57.130
you dreaming of becoming in high school and how

00:34:57.130 --> 00:35:00.869
did that lead to the fire service yeah when i

00:35:00.869 --> 00:35:06.010
was in high school um i was actually i went my

00:35:06.010 --> 00:35:09.539
first degree is criminology So I was thinking

00:35:09.539 --> 00:35:14.179
something law enforcement or legal law, environmental

00:35:14.179 --> 00:35:17.219
law, something like that. So I did a criminology

00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:21.760
degree. And while I was doing that, one of my

00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:24.699
best buds, he was a forestry firefighter. And

00:35:24.699 --> 00:35:26.739
he was like, why don't you apply? Like, you're

00:35:26.739 --> 00:35:28.360
in great shape. You've always played sports.

00:35:28.539 --> 00:35:30.539
You've always done this. Why don't you come try

00:35:30.539 --> 00:35:33.159
out and get this summer job and make some money?

00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:34.860
Because, you know, we weren't making much money

00:35:34.860 --> 00:35:38.019
in the summer for university. and so i applied

00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:40.940
and got hired on with uh with forestry service

00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:45.199
i did four seasons with forestry um in the while

00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:49.400
i was getting my criminology degree and uh and

00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.340
that of course i was just accumulating all my

00:35:52.340 --> 00:35:55.460
all my skill sets like running chainsaws and

00:35:55.460 --> 00:35:58.280
you know first aid and all the stuff you needed

00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:00.519
to be in forestry and then when i finished my

00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:02.659
criminology degree i applied to law school and

00:36:02.659 --> 00:36:04.559
got accepted and then i kind of looked around

00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:06.690
and i looked around the people that i was going

00:36:06.690 --> 00:36:09.190
to be going to law school with. And I realized

00:36:09.190 --> 00:36:11.309
they weren't my people. I was like, I don't think

00:36:11.309 --> 00:36:12.630
I want to hang out with these people for the

00:36:12.630 --> 00:36:15.170
next four years. So I was kind of lost. Didn't

00:36:15.170 --> 00:36:17.510
really know what I was going to do. And again,

00:36:17.590 --> 00:36:20.030
another one of my guy friends said, well, you've

00:36:20.030 --> 00:36:22.389
got all the requirements. Why don't you apply

00:36:22.389 --> 00:36:25.829
for the city? He was applying for city fire departments.

00:36:25.989 --> 00:36:27.829
And so he's like, come on, let's apply together.

00:36:28.650 --> 00:36:33.210
And so I applied for Quilliam. It was kind of

00:36:33.210 --> 00:36:35.550
one of the weirdest things I've ever had to do.

00:36:36.110 --> 00:36:38.769
It wasn't hard. I mean, it was stuff I was used

00:36:38.769 --> 00:36:40.389
to doing all the time, but to have all these

00:36:40.389 --> 00:36:44.550
chiefs following me around as I did each part

00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:48.650
of the physical exam was pretty hilarious in

00:36:48.650 --> 00:36:51.809
a way. And I ended up getting hired on with Coquitlam

00:36:51.809 --> 00:36:54.429
and stayed there for eight years and then found

00:36:54.429 --> 00:36:57.130
that, I mean, loved it. Coquitlam was fantastic.

00:36:57.550 --> 00:37:00.130
My crew was fantastic. They're all still great

00:37:00.130 --> 00:37:03.449
friends. In fact, Steve Farina got hired, who

00:37:03.449 --> 00:37:06.269
introduced us to you. He was hired on 18 months

00:37:06.269 --> 00:37:10.309
after me. But it's interesting because everyone

00:37:10.309 --> 00:37:12.489
I got hired on the fire department is retired

00:37:12.489 --> 00:37:15.650
and I'm not retired and I won't be retired for

00:37:15.650 --> 00:37:20.590
another 15 years in medicine. But yeah, it was

00:37:20.590 --> 00:37:22.070
a great time, really good. But what I really

00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:24.250
found is that I was really being, I was really

00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:26.610
drawn to what we were doing on the medicals when

00:37:26.610 --> 00:37:28.630
we went to medical calls and that I was always

00:37:28.630 --> 00:37:30.630
calling up the eMERGE docs after and saying,

00:37:30.690 --> 00:37:33.670
how'd that guy do? How'd that woman do? And I

00:37:33.670 --> 00:37:36.550
kind of realized that I also didn't really want

00:37:36.550 --> 00:37:38.789
to do all the night shifts anymore. I was starting

00:37:38.789 --> 00:37:42.769
to get really, you know, irritated with, you

00:37:42.769 --> 00:37:45.730
know, working 14 hours a night and feeling like

00:37:45.730 --> 00:37:52.690
a sack of junk the next day. So I applied to

00:37:52.690 --> 00:37:55.769
medicine and then did 36 hour shifts instead

00:37:55.769 --> 00:38:00.550
overnight. But it was good. It's really good.

00:38:00.949 --> 00:38:04.449
I'm glad I did that. And like I said, those guys

00:38:04.449 --> 00:38:06.889
are still my family. They're good brothers and

00:38:06.889 --> 00:38:09.989
surrogate dads that I have. I get to see them

00:38:09.989 --> 00:38:14.469
regularly. How competitive was it to get hired

00:38:14.469 --> 00:38:17.880
back then? It was about the same as medicine.

00:38:18.039 --> 00:38:20.820
It was about one hire for every 1 ,200 applicants.

00:38:21.340 --> 00:38:24.780
Yeah. So medicine was equal. Medicine was one

00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:28.920
person got accepted for every 1 ,200 applicants

00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:33.320
at the time. Amazing. We are in such a retention

00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:36.420
and recruitment crisis at the moment in our profession.

00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:39.159
And it wasn't that long ago that we weren't.

00:38:39.219 --> 00:38:41.199
It was only probably 10 years ago that it really

00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:44.429
started nosediving. And, you know, it's obvious

00:38:44.429 --> 00:38:47.289
to me what the issue is, is, you know, as you

00:38:47.289 --> 00:38:49.010
just talked about, only eight years in, you're

00:38:49.010 --> 00:38:51.070
already getting beaten down by the shift work.

00:38:51.570 --> 00:38:53.670
And so not only that, but that's one of the biggest

00:38:53.670 --> 00:38:56.630
things is in America, the standard work week

00:38:56.630 --> 00:38:59.469
is 56 hours. Now, as they get more and more understaffed,

00:38:59.489 --> 00:39:01.329
you get more and more mandatory overtime. Now

00:39:01.329 --> 00:39:04.409
they're working 80 plus hours a week. And these

00:39:04.409 --> 00:39:06.090
young people are looking at this going, that

00:39:06.090 --> 00:39:08.409
sounds awful. Why would I do that when I could

00:39:08.409 --> 00:39:10.769
be a welder or a mechanic or an electrician and

00:39:10.769 --> 00:39:14.210
be home every night? So it's a great opportunity

00:39:14.210 --> 00:39:17.730
to revisit anyone that worked a couple of decades

00:39:17.730 --> 00:39:20.969
ago to see just what it was supposed to look

00:39:20.969 --> 00:39:23.710
like. Because as you said, do you want the person

00:39:23.710 --> 00:39:25.730
who you're trusting with your life or with your

00:39:25.730 --> 00:39:28.570
health to be the bottom of the barrel? No, you

00:39:28.570 --> 00:39:30.869
want to be picking from the people that are at

00:39:30.869 --> 00:39:33.610
the top tier. So the fact that we're now begging

00:39:33.610 --> 00:39:36.250
high school kids to do this job and training

00:39:36.250 --> 00:39:38.389
them from scratch and offering hiring bonuses

00:39:38.389 --> 00:39:41.469
is the polar opposite, in my opinion, of what...

00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:44.480
fire service hiring should look like so when

00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.340
we fix what's broken i think we're going to go

00:39:46.340 --> 00:39:49.539
back to to where it was before but people seem

00:39:49.539 --> 00:39:51.840
to have forgotten just how competitive it was

00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:55.559
certainly 20 years ago yeah and and what's really

00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:57.300
interesting about what you're saying is because

00:39:57.300 --> 00:39:59.360
we're not dealing with the mental health crisis

00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:02.739
in first responders is a lot of those workplaces

00:40:02.739 --> 00:40:06.980
are toxic so they're incredibly toxic the bullying

00:40:06.980 --> 00:40:12.480
is insane like it's it it The number of stories

00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.639
I get from firefighter colleagues, like how many

00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.719
firefighters I talk to in a weekly basis and

00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:21.019
talk about their workplace. I mean, a lot of

00:40:21.019 --> 00:40:23.920
the workplaces are verging on illegal, like completely

00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.780
illegal behavior. And the workers' compensation

00:40:26.780 --> 00:40:30.420
is not keeping up. They are not recognizing that

00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:32.719
these cutting -edge therapies need to be used.

00:40:32.780 --> 00:40:34.900
In fact, in British Columbia, where we are, they're

00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:38.869
blocking it. You know, despite the data, despite

00:40:38.869 --> 00:40:41.590
the published outcomes, they're blocking it.

00:40:41.610 --> 00:40:44.670
And it need not be that way. I mean, we could

00:40:44.670 --> 00:40:47.409
have firefighters going through 24 -7 through

00:40:47.409 --> 00:40:49.510
our program and getting better. And we would

00:40:49.510 --> 00:40:51.949
see the divorce rate drop. We would see the substance

00:40:51.949 --> 00:40:54.510
use rate drop. We would see the off work time

00:40:54.510 --> 00:40:57.130
drop. It's a no brainer. Like, even if you don't

00:40:57.130 --> 00:40:59.030
care about people, you only care about money.

00:40:59.190 --> 00:41:04.960
It's a no brainer to do this. Yeah, and these

00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:06.539
should be, I mean, these people should be taken

00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:09.739
care of to the highest level. They are taking

00:41:09.739 --> 00:41:14.280
care of us. And as you know, the modern day firefighter

00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:16.500
is so different than before because not only

00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:19.460
are you structure fires, but you're hazardous

00:41:19.460 --> 00:41:23.320
materials, you're confined space rescue, you're

00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:26.539
high angle rescue, you know, like it just add

00:41:26.539 --> 00:41:30.380
on swift water rescue. I mean, it's everything

00:41:30.380 --> 00:41:34.059
that the police don't do. The fire department

00:41:34.059 --> 00:41:38.139
does. Everything. I literally use that exact

00:41:38.139 --> 00:41:40.519
verbiage. We are the Swiss army knife of the

00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:44.119
first responder professions. And yet we work

00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:47.440
double. I mean, it's funny because my whole career

00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:49.019
I've heard people say, well, we want to try and

00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:50.820
make what the cops make. Now, if you're working

00:41:50.820 --> 00:41:52.980
a 56 -hour work week, you're not making what

00:41:52.980 --> 00:41:55.760
the cops make. You're making what they make in

00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:58.949
only 40 hours. So 16 hours more, so you're not.

00:41:59.070 --> 00:42:01.489
So it's not about the money. My focus is just

00:42:01.489 --> 00:42:04.309
on the working conditions, but we've told ourselves

00:42:04.309 --> 00:42:07.690
so many fallacies. And I think one of the aha

00:42:07.690 --> 00:42:11.010
moments I had recently was, and just because

00:42:11.010 --> 00:42:13.369
I've seen it firsthand, like locally here, we've

00:42:13.369 --> 00:42:16.769
had the county that I live in, they had five

00:42:16.769 --> 00:42:19.429
suicides in five years and other three attempts

00:42:19.429 --> 00:42:22.489
that were kind of swept under the rug. And I

00:42:22.489 --> 00:42:25.280
realized it because... People seem unmoved by

00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:28.039
it. Nothing has changed whatsoever. And the solutions

00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:30.800
have been given on a silver platter. Everything

00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.239
from what we're going to talk about today to

00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:35.500
changing the work week, investing in a fourth

00:42:35.500 --> 00:42:37.940
shift so you can actually have a healthy rest

00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:40.800
and recovery period. And it made me realize that

00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:43.000
if you are a fire chief or a police chief or

00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.059
a union president or a city and county council

00:42:45.059 --> 00:42:48.440
member, and your firefighters or your first responders

00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:52.139
are dying, and you still sleep soundly at night,

00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:55.079
We forget to look at the top tier with the mental

00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:57.340
health as well. Like, are you fit for duty if

00:42:57.340 --> 00:42:59.920
you are unmoved by the fact that there's divorce

00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:03.019
and alcoholism? And, you know, so I think that's

00:43:03.019 --> 00:43:05.579
the other thing that we're not really acknowledging

00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:07.539
is that there are a lot of people that aren't

00:43:07.539 --> 00:43:10.420
fit for duty that are wearing chiefs bugles and

00:43:10.420 --> 00:43:13.989
in political positions. Yeah, exactly. I 100

00:43:13.989 --> 00:43:16.409
% agree with everything you said. And that, again,

00:43:16.449 --> 00:43:18.369
goes back to the innovation part where Roots

00:43:18.369 --> 00:43:22.909
to Thrive has really thrived in the research

00:43:22.909 --> 00:43:26.789
is because we see this. And so what we did is

00:43:26.789 --> 00:43:28.710
we had a health economist look at our numbers.

00:43:29.349 --> 00:43:31.949
And they said, for every person that comes through

00:43:31.949 --> 00:43:33.949
our program, what does it save the health care

00:43:33.949 --> 00:43:37.170
system? So we know that if somebody comes into

00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:39.150
Roots to Thrive, and let's say they only have

00:43:39.150 --> 00:43:41.369
a single diagnosis, they just have depression.

00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:44.659
We saved the provincial health care system about

00:43:44.659 --> 00:43:48.719
$30 ,000. And that's incredible. Now, never mind

00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:50.619
if you layer on all the other things. I've got

00:43:50.619 --> 00:43:53.440
PTSD and anxiety and maybe alcohol use disorder.

00:43:54.059 --> 00:43:57.199
Like it's a no brainer. So for any city manager

00:43:57.199 --> 00:44:00.380
out there that is trying to save their city.

00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:05.079
money on time off work or rehab or all the things

00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:07.039
the city has to pay. And I think every place

00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:09.280
is a bit different. Sometimes it's the fire department

00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.000
that has to cover it. Sometimes it's the city

00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:13.079
that covers it. Sometimes it's the workers' compensation.

00:44:13.900 --> 00:44:16.820
But even for just the bean counters, it's a no

00:44:16.820 --> 00:44:19.860
-brainer to make sure that these programs are

00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:23.539
open door, ready to go. that firefighters can

00:44:23.539 --> 00:44:26.739
go right in at the first at the first sign of

00:44:26.739 --> 00:44:28.860
losing resiliency at the first sign of having

00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:30.980
that irritation at their spouse when they walk

00:44:30.980 --> 00:44:33.860
in the door the first time that they start having

00:44:33.860 --> 00:44:36.380
nightmares you get them in the door we have we

00:44:36.380 --> 00:44:38.039
have a paramedic right now that's going through

00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:42.659
a program and their worker has completely got

00:44:42.659 --> 00:44:45.539
it they're back at work and as soon as they have

00:44:45.539 --> 00:44:48.059
enough as soon as it layers on enough and they

00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:50.719
they get a check yep they come through the program

00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:56.920
No job loss, no time off work, no substance use

00:44:56.920 --> 00:45:00.539
disorder, marriage intact, kids got their parent.

00:45:01.900 --> 00:45:05.719
How can you not want to say yes, please to that

00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:10.079
when you are in that top echelon making those

00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.300
decisions? It's one of the easiest decisions

00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:15.840
they can make, really. This is something I've

00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:19.000
talked about recently as well. There is a...

00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:23.760
A victim mentality baked into our physical and

00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:26.280
mental health, which is if you are struggling,

00:45:26.340 --> 00:45:28.519
and I'll give you a perfect example, back injury.

00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:31.940
I tore three ligaments lifting a patient about

00:45:31.940 --> 00:45:35.619
10, 12 years ago now. And the workman's comp

00:45:35.619 --> 00:45:38.420
process, firstly, I mean, the second physician

00:45:38.420 --> 00:45:41.199
I was, or PA that I was presented with was about

00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:43.639
400 pounds. And I'm like, okay, so I'm taking

00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:47.280
wellness advice from this gentleman. But they

00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.260
threw meds and potentially surgery at me. And

00:45:50.260 --> 00:45:52.260
I'm like, well, no, there was an imbalance that

00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:54.400
caused me to get hurt. This wasn't a big patient

00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:57.199
or anything. This is a traumatic injury. I need

00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:59.239
to heal the injury and then heal what caused

00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:01.840
the injury in the first place. So luckily. I

00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:03.860
had enough information on my life's journey to

00:46:03.860 --> 00:46:06.480
be my own advocate and, you know, push against

00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.760
what they wanted me to do. And I chose physical

00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:11.659
therapy and chiropractic and foundation training

00:46:11.659 --> 00:46:15.159
and healed my back with no pills, no surgery.

00:46:15.659 --> 00:46:18.860
But I have got friends that didn't have that,

00:46:18.900 --> 00:46:21.519
went down the surgical route, you know, got everything

00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:24.039
fused and then had to fight for, you know, two

00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:26.679
years to get a medical disability because the

00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:29.760
system isn't set up. to surround you with the

00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.599
right healing tools like the Thor 3 program the

00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:35.300
Green Berets have in America here to get you

00:46:35.300 --> 00:46:37.679
back into combat, get you back on the field.

00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:39.900
We don't want you to be disabled and worrying

00:46:39.900 --> 00:46:41.820
about someone with a camera taking a picture

00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:43.639
of you because you picked up dog food one time.

00:46:43.780 --> 00:46:45.980
We want you to be back to work and then you retire

00:46:45.980 --> 00:46:48.619
when you choose to retire. And it's the same

00:46:48.619 --> 00:46:51.860
with the mental health thing. The PTSD retirement

00:46:51.860 --> 00:46:54.019
really is telling you, well, don't get better,

00:46:54.179 --> 00:46:55.800
otherwise you'll stop getting the disability

00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:58.670
money. Well, how about we focus on getting you

00:46:58.670 --> 00:47:02.130
better so that you, again, can retire with a

00:47:02.130 --> 00:47:04.710
healthy mind and then thrive into retirement

00:47:04.710 --> 00:47:12.550
as well? Totally agree. Yeah, I recall a conversation

00:47:12.550 --> 00:47:16.289
with an individual who's trying to get their

00:47:16.289 --> 00:47:20.610
participation covered through workers' comp.

00:47:21.389 --> 00:47:23.670
And in order for them to get it covered, they

00:47:23.670 --> 00:47:31.280
had to take on They had to, I think it was a

00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:34.440
PTSD diagnosis for a certain period of time in

00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:37.860
order to get the coverage. So they just had to

00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:43.000
take on the label of being disabled. And he was

00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.980
saying, I just have to be this for six more months

00:47:46.980 --> 00:47:50.079
and then I will get long -term disability. And

00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:54.489
there's a real incongruence there for him. And

00:47:54.489 --> 00:47:58.510
in that incongruence, it manifests in all different

00:47:58.510 --> 00:48:01.789
forms of whether it's shame or embarrassment

00:48:01.789 --> 00:48:05.309
or whatever. But yeah, it ties right into what

00:48:05.309 --> 00:48:08.349
you're saying, James, about the victim mentality

00:48:08.349 --> 00:48:12.409
that folks absorb in the struggle of getting

00:48:12.409 --> 00:48:16.289
this type of coverage approved. Yeah. It creates

00:48:16.289 --> 00:48:17.989
the wrong mindset. It's not a healing mindset

00:48:17.989 --> 00:48:20.489
anymore. It's the opposite. And I've seen it.

00:48:20.530 --> 00:48:22.869
I've witnessed it with my friends. Well, Pam,

00:48:22.989 --> 00:48:25.070
you talked about transitioning into medicine.

00:48:26.670 --> 00:48:29.309
Firstly, did you have much holistic training

00:48:29.309 --> 00:48:31.289
when it came to your medical training? A lot

00:48:31.289 --> 00:48:33.429
of doctors I've had on here when it came to nutrition,

00:48:33.690 --> 00:48:37.269
exercise, sleep, or even, you know, it's kind

00:48:37.269 --> 00:48:38.909
of a crazy thought now that they'd be talking

00:48:38.909 --> 00:48:41.150
about plant medicine, but it probably should

00:48:41.150 --> 00:48:43.050
be in there. You know, what was your training

00:48:43.050 --> 00:48:46.309
like? And then what was the disconnect for, you

00:48:46.309 --> 00:48:48.809
know, a practitioner in Canada becoming a physician?

00:48:50.750 --> 00:48:53.289
Well, what I actually had originally planned

00:48:53.289 --> 00:48:56.050
on going into naturopathic medicine is what I

00:48:56.050 --> 00:49:00.489
had. And I stumbled very luckily into a practitioner

00:49:00.489 --> 00:49:03.610
who would let me shadow her while I was still

00:49:03.610 --> 00:49:05.670
on the fire department. So while I was finishing

00:49:05.670 --> 00:49:08.130
up my science degree, so I could apply to medicine,

00:49:08.230 --> 00:49:09.829
I was doing that while I was on the fire department.

00:49:10.050 --> 00:49:13.170
And so I was working with this naturopath and

00:49:13.170 --> 00:49:16.329
she was just, it was like an old school apprenticeship.

00:49:16.949 --> 00:49:20.010
I got to sit there and learn from her. When it

00:49:20.010 --> 00:49:21.929
got to the point that I had all the qualifications

00:49:21.929 --> 00:49:26.110
to apply for medical school, her and her husband,

00:49:26.210 --> 00:49:28.489
who was actually a healthcare administrator,

00:49:28.849 --> 00:49:31.210
both of them said, don't apply to naturopathic

00:49:31.210 --> 00:49:32.690
college. You've already got all that in your

00:49:32.690 --> 00:49:36.090
brain now. Apply to conventional medicine and

00:49:36.090 --> 00:49:38.369
you'll have both. You already have both. And

00:49:38.369 --> 00:49:41.650
you'll be able to influence healthcare better

00:49:41.650 --> 00:49:44.030
from within the medical system. So that was a

00:49:44.030 --> 00:49:47.849
very nice advice. people wiser than me at the

00:49:47.849 --> 00:49:50.250
time told me. So I followed that advice and went

00:49:50.250 --> 00:49:52.670
into medicine. And then when you're in medicine,

00:49:52.769 --> 00:49:54.150
you just put your head down and get through.

00:49:54.309 --> 00:49:56.989
And unfortunately, we created an accountability

00:49:56.989 --> 00:49:59.469
group in medicine. So it was a bunch of us that

00:49:59.469 --> 00:50:02.110
were coming from second or third careers. There

00:50:02.110 --> 00:50:03.989
was another firefighter in my med school class

00:50:03.989 --> 00:50:06.809
as well. So we were, we kept ourselves meeting

00:50:06.809 --> 00:50:09.469
regularly so that we held true to our values

00:50:09.469 --> 00:50:11.889
as we went through medicine so that we could

00:50:11.889 --> 00:50:15.619
come out the other end intact. And so we were

00:50:15.619 --> 00:50:17.280
the ones that lifted each other up when we were

00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:19.579
like, oh, this sucks. I'm quitting this. I can't

00:50:19.579 --> 00:50:22.840
do this anymore. Like we held there as a unit

00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:26.380
for each other so that we could get through and

00:50:26.380 --> 00:50:30.059
just keep that holistic outlook on life. We were

00:50:30.059 --> 00:50:32.559
all athletes. We were all, you know, we ate well.

00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.420
We understood it and we weren't getting that

00:50:34.420 --> 00:50:37.000
in medical school. And as a block, we could advocate

00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.059
for it. And if we couldn't get it through the

00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:41.650
school system, we could do it on our own. so

00:50:41.650 --> 00:50:43.889
it was that i mean that just really again speaks

00:50:43.889 --> 00:50:46.389
to community when you're in a community you have

00:50:46.389 --> 00:50:49.389
strength and so as a community when one of us

00:50:49.389 --> 00:50:51.710
was weak the others could hold us up and we could

00:50:51.710 --> 00:50:54.530
hold others up when they were not thriving so

00:50:54.530 --> 00:50:56.829
we did that and then as soon as i was out of

00:50:56.829 --> 00:51:00.690
medicine i was what i did is once you have the

00:51:00.690 --> 00:51:03.710
freedom is then i just found the practitioners

00:51:03.710 --> 00:51:07.110
around the world that were that were successful

00:51:07.110 --> 00:51:10.969
you know so i who is the best out there and i

00:51:10.969 --> 00:51:13.670
would contact them and say, I'm coming. I'm going

00:51:13.670 --> 00:51:15.489
to come learn from you. I want to see what you're

00:51:15.489 --> 00:51:18.150
doing because you're getting people better. So

00:51:18.150 --> 00:51:21.329
people from the nutrition field, from the athletics

00:51:21.329 --> 00:51:24.730
field. And still do actually work with a really

00:51:24.730 --> 00:51:27.769
high level group of sports athletes that are

00:51:27.769 --> 00:51:30.829
sports practitioners that mostly work with elite

00:51:30.829 --> 00:51:33.829
Olympic and professional athletes. And I go and

00:51:33.829 --> 00:51:35.409
train with them. I go to the same conferences

00:51:35.409 --> 00:51:39.670
as them. We learn together. And that went into

00:51:39.670 --> 00:51:42.630
a pain clinic. that i that i had in vancouver

00:51:42.630 --> 00:51:45.369
where i was bringing psychedelic therapy into

00:51:45.369 --> 00:51:48.070
that pain clinic to deal with you have the physical

00:51:48.070 --> 00:51:50.889
pain but then you have the emotional pain and

00:51:50.889 --> 00:51:53.989
so it was really just that's i just co -created

00:51:53.989 --> 00:51:57.710
my my learning path to go who you know you don't

00:51:57.710 --> 00:51:59.329
want to learn from the people that aren't getting

00:51:59.329 --> 00:52:03.309
success like why i mean like you know if you've

00:52:03.309 --> 00:52:05.269
got a psychiatrist somebody at one of the uh

00:52:05.269 --> 00:52:08.469
patients i was talking to this morning like We're

00:52:08.469 --> 00:52:10.489
getting them off all the medications that their

00:52:10.489 --> 00:52:13.309
psychiatrist is putting them on. And this psychiatrist,

00:52:13.510 --> 00:52:15.949
all they know is how to be a prescriber. They

00:52:15.949 --> 00:52:17.989
don't know how to get to the root of the trauma,

00:52:18.130 --> 00:52:21.409
right? So you don't want to learn from that psychiatrist.

00:52:21.610 --> 00:52:23.269
You want to learn from the psychiatrist. Like

00:52:23.269 --> 00:52:25.269
at Roots to Thrive, we have Dr. Crosby -Wattler.

00:52:25.409 --> 00:52:27.769
We want to learn from the psychiatrist that gets

00:52:27.769 --> 00:52:31.349
it, that gets humans, that gets what builds resiliency,

00:52:31.630 --> 00:52:34.670
what builds healing, what builds a healthy, thriving

00:52:34.670 --> 00:52:39.250
life. And so that's so, there was, I don't know,

00:52:39.269 --> 00:52:43.690
good mentors really pushed me in the right direction

00:52:43.690 --> 00:52:46.809
with that. So having that holistic learning ahead

00:52:46.809 --> 00:52:48.829
of time and then going through medicine and then

00:52:48.829 --> 00:52:52.190
also having this tribe of accountability folks

00:52:52.190 --> 00:52:55.929
to hold that path. And then again, finding the

00:52:55.929 --> 00:52:58.510
people that are doing it the best and learning

00:52:58.510 --> 00:53:00.510
from them. That's who you want to learn from.

00:53:00.670 --> 00:53:03.449
And I feel like Roots to Thrive is all of that.

00:53:03.530 --> 00:53:06.289
Everybody on our team are people that are at

00:53:06.289 --> 00:53:08.849
the leading edge of what they do and really are

00:53:08.849 --> 00:53:13.969
experts, except the most humble and egoless folks

00:53:13.969 --> 00:53:18.179
I've ever worked with. I just had a psychiatrist

00:53:18.179 --> 00:53:22.219
who's also a neuroscientist, Dr. Dave Rabin on

00:53:22.219 --> 00:53:24.519
the show. He's the founder of Apollo Neuro, which

00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:28.699
is a wearable. But the way he presented psychiatric

00:53:28.699 --> 00:53:31.559
meds was so great. I mean, obviously, you're

00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:33.719
not talking about some of the extreme conditions

00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:37.559
that require maybe more medication, but the antidepressants,

00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:39.579
the anti -anxiety, et cetera, that most people

00:53:39.579 --> 00:53:42.400
are prescribed. The way he presented is, you

00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:44.699
know, you've cut your arm and you're bleeding.

00:53:45.230 --> 00:53:47.530
So you put a tourniquet on it, you know, to stabilize

00:53:47.530 --> 00:53:49.510
it until you can get to surgery. He said, well,

00:53:49.570 --> 00:53:52.730
the SSRI is a tourniquet. That doesn't mean you're

00:53:52.730 --> 00:53:54.230
supposed to wear a tourniquet the rest of your

00:53:54.230 --> 00:53:56.369
life. It's just to get you to the point where

00:53:56.369 --> 00:53:58.750
you can now get the help. And it was such a good

00:53:58.750 --> 00:54:02.860
way of reframing it. deep in depression and suicidal,

00:54:03.219 --> 00:54:06.059
you know, maybe at that point there's an application

00:54:06.059 --> 00:54:08.739
for that just to level them off. And then now

00:54:08.739 --> 00:54:12.400
they have the, you know, the ability to go to

00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:14.599
talk therapy or EMDR or obviously, you know,

00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:17.599
taper off it and then do a, you know, psychedelic

00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:20.380
retreat. But that's not how it's presented. And

00:54:20.380 --> 00:54:22.440
it's the same with the hypertension med. It's

00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:25.260
the same with, you know, diabetic med. the conversation

00:54:25.260 --> 00:54:28.039
isn't well we need to just use this to stabilize

00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:30.659
to get your blood pressure out of 220 and down

00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:33.420
so you don't stroke but we need to get your your

00:54:33.420 --> 00:54:36.460
bmi down we need to what is a bad bad term bmi

00:54:36.460 --> 00:54:39.119
is terrible but your body composition down you

00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:42.219
know your um your nutrition change so that then

00:54:42.780 --> 00:54:45.320
You don't need these drugs anymore. But with

00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:47.820
the psych side, it's so irresponsible because

00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:49.599
most people are given it like, well, you're going

00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:51.780
to be on this the rest of your life and you haven't

00:54:51.780 --> 00:54:53.880
fixed anything. All you're doing is just masking

00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:58.840
the symptoms. Yeah, totally agree. Totally agree.

00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:03.480
And that is one of the things that we do very

00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:06.739
nicely is help people recognize that these are

00:55:06.739 --> 00:55:09.460
just tools and they don't have to have a judgment

00:55:09.460 --> 00:55:12.719
around it either. It's just a tool in the toolbox.

00:55:12.820 --> 00:55:14.980
And when that tool is no longer needed because

00:55:14.980 --> 00:55:17.739
they've built, they've helped resolve some of

00:55:17.739 --> 00:55:19.179
the trauma, they've been able to work through

00:55:19.179 --> 00:55:21.579
some of the challenges and use other techniques

00:55:21.579 --> 00:55:24.000
and especially things that help get them back

00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:26.579
into parasympathetic, get our nervous systems

00:55:26.579 --> 00:55:29.739
re -regulated, that then maybe these medicines

00:55:29.739 --> 00:55:33.380
can slowly be weaned off and can go back into

00:55:33.380 --> 00:55:36.280
the toolbox and not be used until. and less needed

00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:39.659
again and the interesting thing too which i love

00:55:39.659 --> 00:55:41.539
and and i think there's when you look at all

00:55:41.539 --> 00:55:44.000
the clinical trials that are registered now clinicaltrials

00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:48.400
.gov is that we're also seeing how much not only

00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:50.460
that these medicines you know especially with

00:55:50.460 --> 00:55:53.460
ketamine and psilocybin mdma as well is that

00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:56.440
not only are the mental health challenges resolving

00:55:56.440 --> 00:56:00.539
but we're seeing massive changes in these other

00:56:00.539 --> 00:56:05.360
medical conditions. We've had a number of people

00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:10.179
come through our program with mass cell dysregulation,

00:56:10.380 --> 00:56:14.340
and they're better. They're better after going

00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:16.920
through Roots to Thrive. They don't have any

00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:21.980
more flares. They haven't had to use their EpiPen

00:56:21.980 --> 00:56:26.639
forever. So these other conditions that have

00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:30.539
this physiological element, Parkinson's people,

00:56:31.309 --> 00:56:36.369
We'll report that their gait is longer and the

00:56:36.369 --> 00:56:39.809
pill rolling and the tremor is starting to go

00:56:39.809 --> 00:56:44.010
down. So it really shows how they're both woven

00:56:44.010 --> 00:56:48.570
together. So not only will people perhaps see

00:56:48.570 --> 00:56:53.210
these medications as now no longer needed, well,

00:56:53.369 --> 00:56:55.630
we actually do what's needed, what actually is

00:56:55.630 --> 00:56:57.989
going to help the condition, but the physical.

00:56:58.850 --> 00:57:03.090
health challenges is really really interesting

00:57:03.090 --> 00:57:05.670
and it's not surprising because it's mind body

00:57:05.670 --> 00:57:09.090
spirit medicine isn't it like it's all connected

00:57:09.090 --> 00:57:12.469
the head is connected to the body that's that's

00:57:12.469 --> 00:57:15.650
a fact so if if the mental health is better we

00:57:15.650 --> 00:57:17.750
know from of course the clinical trials too we

00:57:17.750 --> 00:57:20.050
know that when mental health gets better neural

00:57:20.050 --> 00:57:22.489
inflammation drops if neural inflammation drops

00:57:22.489 --> 00:57:24.909
inflammation generally is dropping if inflammation

00:57:24.909 --> 00:57:28.449
generally is dropping then the body can work

00:57:28.449 --> 00:57:30.889
at a higher level to fix other things and we

00:57:30.889 --> 00:57:34.090
might start to see more physical health challenges

00:57:34.090 --> 00:57:39.010
change so i hope so pam i'm as you're speaking

00:57:39.010 --> 00:57:41.449
about this i'm curious if you'd be willing to

00:57:41.449 --> 00:57:44.150
say a little bit more we did some work a couple

00:57:44.150 --> 00:57:48.150
years ago with uh folks suffering like folks

00:57:48.150 --> 00:57:50.550
that had received an end -of -life diagnosis

00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:56.000
uh and uh we they received a section 56 exemption

00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:00.639
through health canada to participate in psilocybin

00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:03.780
assisted therapy and we saw some remarkable outcomes

00:58:03.780 --> 00:58:07.559
on the physical health side and i'm curious if

00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:09.460
you'd be willing to speak to that a little bit

00:58:09.460 --> 00:58:12.840
pam yeah yeah as phil said we were able we had

00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:15.139
quite a few cohorts of people that came through

00:58:15.139 --> 00:58:19.420
our program uh with psilocybin and you know it

00:58:19.420 --> 00:58:22.760
was it what's what's remarkable is not just found

00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:24.900
in our program but also found in the programs

00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:27.619
at nyu and john hopkins is that many of these

00:58:27.619 --> 00:58:30.780
end of life folks even though they qualify to

00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:32.860
get into the program they have to have a palliative

00:58:32.860 --> 00:58:35.659
diagnosis which means they're likely to die in

00:58:35.659 --> 00:58:39.460
the next one to two years and many of them don't

00:58:39.460 --> 00:58:43.219
you know in fact most of them are still doing

00:58:43.219 --> 00:58:47.139
quite well they're like so when this this when

00:58:47.139 --> 00:58:52.489
this mental health level goes away or starts

00:58:52.489 --> 00:58:56.349
getting resolved. So it's not only the existential

00:58:56.349 --> 00:58:59.769
distress and anxiety and depression from an end

00:58:59.769 --> 00:59:02.389
-of -life diagnosis, but there's also the whole

00:59:02.389 --> 00:59:04.969
life of trauma before that that even got them

00:59:04.969 --> 00:59:08.849
to that place. And as all of that stuff unlayers

00:59:08.849 --> 00:59:14.340
and starts to heal, suddenly their vibrancy grows

00:59:14.340 --> 00:59:16.920
you see it like you actually see it at the end

00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:19.980
of some of those sessions phil was a facilitator

00:59:19.980 --> 00:59:23.559
for many of them and saw that too um is that

00:59:23.559 --> 00:59:26.960
there is they went in like walking in with canes

00:59:26.960 --> 00:59:29.019
and got up at the end and walked out and forgot

00:59:29.019 --> 00:59:32.239
they even had canes like they didn't need it

00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:37.260
or talked about going golfing after or and a

00:59:37.260 --> 00:59:39.219
group like a whole group of them went surfing

00:59:39.219 --> 00:59:42.099
and camping together like everything shifted

00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:47.320
And so, and talking to our colleagues like Bill

00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:49.760
Richards, who's at the NYU site, I asked him

00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:53.880
in December, not last December, but two Decembers,

00:59:53.900 --> 00:59:55.940
I go, are your folks dying? He's like, no. And

00:59:55.940 --> 00:59:59.559
I'm like, neither are ours. You know, it's really

00:59:59.559 --> 01:00:01.940
interesting. So, and the physical health stuff,

01:00:02.059 --> 01:00:04.260
like they feel better in their bodies, the pain

01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:06.599
drops, the family really reports that. We got

01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:08.980
a lot of reports from their family, sisters and

01:00:08.980 --> 01:00:11.780
stuff saying it's the happiest I've seen them.

01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:14.840
Their pain is dropped. They're not using their

01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:19.420
meds anymore. Not in all cases. Some people still

01:00:19.420 --> 01:00:23.840
have passed on. Some people got a little bit

01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:26.960
of relief, but not full relief. But the fact

01:00:26.960 --> 01:00:31.239
that there was that much change is phenomenal.

01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:35.280
And it's interesting in Canada because it's harder

01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:37.760
to get access right now through Health Canada.

01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:41.219
for a psilocybin session at end of life than

01:00:41.219 --> 01:00:43.579
it is to get MAID, medical assistance in dying.

01:00:43.699 --> 01:00:46.519
You can get medical assistance in dying, no problem.

01:00:47.380 --> 01:00:49.940
But to get access to a medicine that might make

01:00:49.940 --> 01:00:52.820
your life better, it might resolve some of that

01:00:52.820 --> 01:00:57.280
trauma, is incredibly challenging right now.

01:00:58.360 --> 01:01:02.719
And it shouldn't be. I was going to ask you about

01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:04.519
MAID because you were kind of talking about the

01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:07.980
end of life side. So I have seen... Some of the

01:01:07.980 --> 01:01:09.739
people, I don't know if I'm in an echo chamber,

01:01:09.860 --> 01:01:12.539
I don't know if I see certain people, but the

01:01:12.539 --> 01:01:15.639
presentation, because I'm a huge believer in

01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:18.239
euthanasia. If it's truly end of life, if you're

01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:20.940
just going to be suffering and every day is just

01:01:20.940 --> 01:01:23.619
going to be zero quality and be able to make

01:01:23.619 --> 01:01:25.099
that choice the same way as we're compassionate

01:01:25.099 --> 01:01:27.059
towards our animals when I get to that point.

01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:30.260
But the way that some of the people I've heard

01:01:30.260 --> 01:01:33.219
talked about that in Canada is it's being presented

01:01:33.219 --> 01:01:36.940
irresponsibly sometimes to groups that maybe,

01:01:37.079 --> 01:01:41.119
you know, it's not actually applicable to, you

01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:43.980
know, rather than a last ditch end of life, nothing

01:01:43.980 --> 01:01:45.780
else is going to help. You know, it's just going

01:01:45.780 --> 01:01:47.480
to alleviate the suffering at the other end.

01:01:47.539 --> 01:01:49.659
I think their concern was if there were mental

01:01:49.659 --> 01:01:52.380
health problems, it was almost like. Well, here's

01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:54.159
your suicide option if you want it. Now, that

01:01:54.159 --> 01:01:56.340
might be, like I said, completely distorted.

01:01:56.500 --> 01:02:00.219
So what is your perception of the pros and the

01:02:00.219 --> 01:02:03.380
cons of MAID and how it's been introduced to

01:02:03.380 --> 01:02:07.260
the Canadian people? Well, I think we all want

01:02:07.260 --> 01:02:10.320
– the first way to look at it is what do you

01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:13.539
want? So I think about that. If I was in a place

01:02:13.539 --> 01:02:16.679
where I knew that my suffering would be just

01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:21.480
too much or I was just too done, just done. I

01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:23.219
would want that choice personally. That's my

01:02:23.219 --> 01:02:26.320
own personal opinion. I think the way that we

01:02:26.320 --> 01:02:29.880
should be looking at MAID is you should have

01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:33.699
all options prior to it. And if you want to choose

01:02:33.699 --> 01:02:36.400
MAID, excellent. No problem. That's your choice.

01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:39.860
And if you are suffering from existential distress

01:02:39.860 --> 01:02:43.460
or depression or PTSD or chronic pain, like every

01:02:43.460 --> 01:02:45.659
option should be on the table. It should just

01:02:45.659 --> 01:02:49.039
be a hell yes. There should be no blocks. So

01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:52.940
in Canada, if I had the magic wand, if I was

01:02:52.940 --> 01:02:54.900
a health minister, I would say, if you qualify

01:02:54.900 --> 01:02:57.099
for MAID, you qualify for psychedelic therapy,

01:02:57.300 --> 01:03:00.039
period. And as much psychedelic therapy as you

01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:03.260
want, period. And you qualify for the best pain

01:03:03.260 --> 01:03:08.219
therapy, period. That's a no -brainer. There's

01:03:08.219 --> 01:03:12.159
just no reason to roadblock that. And I think

01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:16.380
that's what we would find. Is that if we could

01:03:16.380 --> 01:03:18.360
use, again, this goes back to innovation, right?

01:03:18.780 --> 01:03:21.360
If we had the innovators making the decisions

01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:23.539
and opening up the doors and giving patients

01:03:23.539 --> 01:03:25.380
full choice of what they get, then they're going

01:03:25.380 --> 01:03:27.119
to feel better. And there's certainly going to

01:03:27.119 --> 01:03:28.239
be people that are going to go, I don't want

01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:30.639
to do psychedelics. I just want MAID. That's

01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:32.199
what I want. I'm done with this condition. I

01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:36.380
would like to go out on my own terms. But how

01:03:36.380 --> 01:03:39.679
can you not give these other options to people

01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:42.659
first and foremost? And I think that would just

01:03:42.659 --> 01:03:46.280
remove the whole debate. because if you can have

01:03:46.280 --> 01:03:49.920
everything on the table to feel better and you,

01:03:49.940 --> 01:03:52.099
and you get to the end of the table and you're

01:03:52.099 --> 01:03:54.320
like, no, this is what I, and we actually had,

01:03:54.380 --> 01:03:57.019
we had a participant in our program that had,

01:03:57.099 --> 01:03:59.199
when they came in, they had their made date set.

01:04:00.559 --> 01:04:02.219
And at the end of their session, they're like,

01:04:02.300 --> 01:04:04.900
I still think I want to do made, but just not

01:04:04.900 --> 01:04:08.380
yet. And they went, it was quite a while. I can't

01:04:08.380 --> 01:04:09.980
remember quite Phil. I don't know if you remember,

01:04:10.059 --> 01:04:11.880
but I think it was over a year and a half later

01:04:11.880 --> 01:04:15.869
that they decided. to go ahead and they had a

01:04:15.869 --> 01:04:19.210
beautiful celebration of life first they were

01:04:19.210 --> 01:04:22.949
able to fully fully engage with their life up

01:04:22.949 --> 01:04:27.250
until that point well and we also had another

01:04:27.250 --> 01:04:32.710
one recently uh i want to say six months ago

01:04:32.710 --> 01:04:36.550
came through our program was checking the box

01:04:36.550 --> 01:04:41.260
for made just to get to that point of being able

01:04:41.260 --> 01:04:45.460
to go through the MAID process. And I just saw

01:04:45.460 --> 01:04:47.760
recently that they're coming back to do what

01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:51.400
we call an alumni refresher, which is a group

01:04:51.400 --> 01:04:54.599
of 10 alumni participants coming together to

01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:56.699
do a group ketamine -assisted therapy session,

01:04:56.880 --> 01:04:59.400
just one single session, and they're signed up

01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:02.639
for it. So I haven't engaged with the participant.

01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:05.440
I don't know the details, but I take that as

01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:08.539
a good sign that they're... still here coming

01:05:08.539 --> 01:05:12.800
back and doing another session yeah yeah yeah

01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:15.820
so there is a lot there is a lot of stuff out

01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:19.619
there about about made but i and i think that

01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:21.860
the noise there i just want to come back to your

01:05:21.860 --> 01:05:24.539
original question the noise there really i think

01:05:24.539 --> 01:05:26.579
the focus should be why can't they have all the

01:05:26.579 --> 01:05:29.599
options first and then that noise will disappear

01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:32.300
because it doesn't have to be it doesn't have

01:05:32.300 --> 01:05:34.539
to be siloed it are not siloed it doesn't have

01:05:34.539 --> 01:05:37.559
to be this against that It doesn't make sense.

01:05:37.940 --> 01:05:40.519
It's like, what is best for that person? So I

01:05:40.519 --> 01:05:42.000
know there's people that are pro and there's

01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:43.579
people that are anti. And I think they just need

01:05:43.579 --> 01:05:46.519
to say, no, just put your opinions inside and

01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:48.840
let's create the system where people have the

01:05:48.840 --> 01:05:52.579
choice of what they want. So that each person

01:05:52.579 --> 01:05:54.920
has a choice of what they want. So I think a

01:05:54.920 --> 01:05:56.639
lot of what you were talking about is just that

01:05:56.639 --> 01:05:59.099
noise in the system. And the noise comes because

01:05:59.099 --> 01:06:02.099
people can't have, right now, there's roadblocks

01:06:02.099 --> 01:06:06.360
for them getting psychedelic therapy. I just

01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:08.920
watched, I think it was called Famous Last Words,

01:06:09.019 --> 01:06:12.039
if I've got that right. It's an interview that

01:06:12.039 --> 01:06:15.139
they do with people who are probably going to

01:06:15.139 --> 01:06:17.019
pass away. I would imagine there's probably a

01:06:17.019 --> 01:06:19.400
year or two window that they do it in. So Jane

01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:21.780
Goodall was one, but they just interviewed Eric

01:06:21.780 --> 01:06:25.159
Dane, the actor that had ALS. And in that conversation,

01:06:25.400 --> 01:06:27.840
he'd mentioned that he tried all different kinds

01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:30.519
of out -the -box therapies, I think is how he

01:06:30.519 --> 01:06:33.840
referred to it. And he didn't say it exactly

01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:36.280
as far as euthanasia, but he implied that he

01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:39.079
had a plan if they didn't work. And then he passed

01:06:39.079 --> 01:06:41.460
away. And I don't know if that was ultimately

01:06:41.460 --> 01:06:45.199
from, air quotes, natural causes or if he, you

01:06:45.199 --> 01:06:47.519
know, went through with his own plan. But that

01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:49.679
is an example. Like you said, if those are all

01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:52.480
on the table and say he tried psychedelics and

01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:54.460
then got to that point and, you know, he was

01:06:54.460 --> 01:06:57.440
adamant that once he wasn't able to really, you

01:06:57.440 --> 01:07:00.420
know, control, could speak, etc. And he lost

01:07:00.420 --> 01:07:02.880
who he was and his physicality and his ability

01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:05.179
to communicate with his loved ones. That was

01:07:05.179 --> 01:07:07.659
his own personal choice. Then that was the line.

01:07:07.820 --> 01:07:09.639
And so that's a kind of illustration exactly

01:07:09.639 --> 01:07:11.840
what you're talking about. Why would you not

01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:15.739
have access to these potential elements that

01:07:15.739 --> 01:07:19.400
would add months or years or alleviate pain or

01:07:19.400 --> 01:07:21.880
whatever it is? If you're going to allow someone

01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:24.519
to ultimately take their own life in a medical

01:07:24.519 --> 01:07:27.940
sense, why would you not then? have them, you

01:07:27.940 --> 01:07:29.519
know, give them the access to the other things

01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:32.380
that might work. It might just be the thing that

01:07:32.380 --> 01:07:36.239
was missing to turn them around. The thing that

01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:39.539
Pam said, allowing the patient to be in full

01:07:39.539 --> 01:07:42.480
choice. And I think that's the key piece. And

01:07:42.480 --> 01:07:47.760
we do find in our program and all of us as humans,

01:07:47.840 --> 01:07:52.800
when we are in choice, we tend to... We own the

01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:57.219
decision. We're not being directed by somebody

01:07:57.219 --> 01:08:01.679
else on what we should do. And the outcomes are

01:08:01.679 --> 01:08:05.840
much better when we are in choice. So allowing

01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:08.739
the patient, the participant to make the decision,

01:08:08.900 --> 01:08:13.639
whether it's doing MAID or doing psychedelics

01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:16.960
or seeing a counselor, regardless of what it

01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:21.079
is, it's allowing them to step in and in choice.

01:08:23.099 --> 01:08:28.100
is the right way to go. Going back to the palliative

01:08:28.100 --> 01:08:32.140
care and people with cancer, coming from a background

01:08:32.140 --> 01:08:35.180
of, you know, basic level, street level medicine

01:08:35.180 --> 01:08:38.039
and science and sports science. So nothing, I'm

01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:40.020
not saying I'm a neuroscientist or a physician

01:08:40.020 --> 01:08:44.260
or anything, but there's almost like an interesting

01:08:44.260 --> 01:08:46.659
perspective when you haven't been. put into too

01:08:46.659 --> 01:08:49.340
much of a narrow field in medicine. You're still

01:08:49.340 --> 01:08:52.600
looking at it with a broad brush. The idea that

01:08:52.600 --> 01:08:56.739
you can kill cancer by agent oranging the whole

01:08:56.739 --> 01:09:00.039
body with chemo and then crossing your fingers,

01:09:00.060 --> 01:09:03.720
hoping the good cells come back, never made any

01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:07.119
sense to me. And so, you know, with what you're

01:09:07.119 --> 01:09:10.060
talking about, knowing that a lot of cancer is

01:09:10.060 --> 01:09:11.699
coming from stress, whether it's nutritional

01:09:11.699 --> 01:09:13.970
stress, whether it's, you know. trauma stress

01:09:13.970 --> 01:09:17.850
trying to get as close to homeostasis again with

01:09:17.850 --> 01:09:20.109
the way you move the way you eat your relationships

01:09:20.109 --> 01:09:24.409
your time in nature etc um this application of

01:09:24.409 --> 01:09:26.529
plant medicine makes perfect sense to me like

01:09:26.529 --> 01:09:29.949
like if i i can tell you this now you know knock

01:09:29.949 --> 01:09:33.250
on wood i hope not but if i got a cancer diagnosis

01:09:33.250 --> 01:09:35.569
i would lean into the holistic route because

01:09:35.569 --> 01:09:39.770
i personally think that chemo kills more people

01:09:39.770 --> 01:09:42.569
than cancer does it just you know and then their

01:09:42.569 --> 01:09:45.050
end of life usually is horrendous as well so

01:09:45.050 --> 01:09:47.850
i hope that you know advances in immunotherapy

01:09:47.850 --> 01:09:49.810
and some of these other things will be a great

01:09:49.810 --> 01:09:53.770
adjunct to the holistic side but the you know

01:09:53.770 --> 01:09:55.989
the the kind of global chemo that we've done

01:09:55.989 --> 01:09:59.649
it just doesn't make any sense to me but addressing

01:09:59.649 --> 01:10:02.670
like you said the emotional and physical trauma

01:10:02.670 --> 01:10:05.899
through the plant medicine journeys is something

01:10:05.899 --> 01:10:08.039
that i absolutely would do because you're ultimately

01:10:08.039 --> 01:10:10.319
then trying to find any root of inflammation

01:10:10.319 --> 01:10:13.439
any root of stress that is you know feeding the

01:10:13.439 --> 01:10:16.600
cancer ultimately and trying to reduce or eliminate

01:10:16.600 --> 01:10:19.640
that yeah and what i think what you're saying

01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:23.600
too is uh making it even wider is you know 60

01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:27.020
of health we can really control You know, drinking

01:10:27.020 --> 01:10:30.180
water, eating good food, moving our body, laughing,

01:10:30.340 --> 01:10:32.520
turning off the news, hanging out with people

01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:35.300
that uplift us. All of that, you know, I remember

01:10:35.300 --> 01:10:37.359
one of my favorite cardiologists said, you know,

01:10:37.380 --> 01:10:39.279
if we could just get people exercising, that's

01:10:39.279 --> 01:10:42.539
60 % better than any pill we can give them. Right?

01:10:42.579 --> 01:10:45.460
So there's, we give up a lot of control. We don't

01:10:45.460 --> 01:10:47.600
need to. We can, anyone can take it back. But

01:10:47.600 --> 01:10:50.659
really going like, what is the hierarchy of health,

01:10:50.859 --> 01:10:54.489
first and foremost? And there's a great... group

01:10:54.489 --> 01:10:56.750
out of vancouver i've just lost the name for

01:10:56.750 --> 01:10:59.050
a minute but uh it'll come in a moment but they

01:10:59.050 --> 01:11:02.489
that when people get a diagnosis the first weekend

01:11:02.489 --> 01:11:04.390
they spend with them is like here's all the things

01:11:04.390 --> 01:11:07.010
you can do here's how much water you got to drink

01:11:07.010 --> 01:11:09.189
here's the vegetables you want to get in your

01:11:09.189 --> 01:11:11.930
body here's the movement like all of the the

01:11:11.930 --> 01:11:15.390
real hierarchy of health and then down the road

01:11:15.390 --> 01:11:17.710
is you know nutritional supplements and then

01:11:17.710 --> 01:11:20.289
the medical system whether it's it's surgery

01:11:20.289 --> 01:11:25.579
chemo etc so We are at a time of unprecedented

01:11:25.579 --> 01:11:28.760
individualized medicine too. So we are finding

01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:30.380
like there are, I think we're going to be moving

01:11:30.380 --> 01:11:32.539
away from those chemos to more targeted gene

01:11:32.539 --> 01:11:35.100
therapy over time, but incredibly expensive and

01:11:35.100 --> 01:11:37.199
still only people who can afford it are getting

01:11:37.199 --> 01:11:42.359
that. And I do have a patient who has leukemia

01:11:42.359 --> 01:11:46.340
and every so many months she does a psilocybin

01:11:46.340 --> 01:11:49.520
journey where all she does is scan her body,

01:11:49.640 --> 01:11:53.069
talk to the cancer. and see what it needs see

01:11:53.069 --> 01:11:56.029
what her body needs and she goes in there in

01:11:56.029 --> 01:11:59.189
head to toe and she's doing fantastic her numbers

01:11:59.189 --> 01:12:01.329
are fantastic she probably really doesn't even

01:12:01.329 --> 01:12:04.369
qualify for the diagnosis anymore but she's having

01:12:04.369 --> 01:12:08.529
that mind body spirit conversation and she's

01:12:08.529 --> 01:12:11.510
also doing all the other things she's also moving

01:12:11.510 --> 01:12:15.029
the bar in her favor on all that stuff and that's

01:12:15.029 --> 01:12:18.250
what we need to do better in medicine is go when

01:12:18.250 --> 01:12:21.789
you get any diagnosis that's inflammatory which

01:12:21.789 --> 01:12:26.630
cancer is, or degenerative, is you got to do

01:12:26.630 --> 01:12:29.289
all these things. And one of the most frustrating

01:12:29.289 --> 01:12:32.010
things I find as a physician is back in the day

01:12:32.010 --> 01:12:34.250
in Canada, we used to have this great program

01:12:34.250 --> 01:12:36.869
that all the media had to show called participation.

01:12:37.850 --> 01:12:40.109
And it talked about all the things you should

01:12:40.109 --> 01:12:43.550
be doing to be a healthy human. And we've given

01:12:43.550 --> 01:12:46.250
up that. We have these airways and social media

01:12:46.250 --> 01:12:50.789
that we don't get to really push prevention out

01:12:50.789 --> 01:12:53.909
there. And wouldn't it be nice to have federally

01:12:53.909 --> 01:12:57.750
in Canada and the US, like, hey, here's prevention.

01:12:58.029 --> 01:13:01.289
Here is true prevention. Turn off the TV and

01:13:01.289 --> 01:13:05.890
go outside. Go play with your kids. Have you

01:13:05.890 --> 01:13:07.989
drank enough water? Wouldn't it be nice instead

01:13:07.989 --> 01:13:11.840
of seeing an ad for... Viagra, the ad is like,

01:13:11.899 --> 01:13:16.720
hey, go have a glass of water. So we can really

01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:20.340
change that. And I totally agree. But it's psychedelic

01:13:20.340 --> 01:13:24.539
therapy or any kind of spiritual therapy. Anything

01:13:24.539 --> 01:13:30.659
is going to be helpful. And we can do that. And

01:13:30.659 --> 01:13:33.439
a lot of people are doing it. And this again

01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:35.659
goes, I'm going to just on a soapbox, but this

01:13:35.659 --> 01:13:37.699
also goes back to the bell curve. Like the front

01:13:37.699 --> 01:13:41.140
end of that bell curve in healthcare is doing

01:13:41.140 --> 01:13:44.420
exactly what you brought up, is looking at mind,

01:13:44.460 --> 01:13:47.420
body, spirit, is looking at all those elements

01:13:47.420 --> 01:13:50.659
of wellness. And the back half is really falling

01:13:50.659 --> 01:13:55.760
behind. So I'm optimistic. Yeah, no, I am too.

01:13:55.939 --> 01:13:57.779
And one of the things that I think I like to

01:13:57.779 --> 01:13:59.720
revisit, you know, on a lot of these conversations

01:13:59.720 --> 01:14:03.079
is the pandemic. Because if there ever was a

01:14:03.079 --> 01:14:05.520
time where we had a captive audience and really

01:14:05.520 --> 01:14:09.319
got to impart wisdom on the holistic tools that

01:14:09.319 --> 01:14:13.260
forge health and prevention, it was 2020, 2021.

01:14:14.239 --> 01:14:18.390
And the polar opposite happened. If you just

01:14:18.390 --> 01:14:20.310
sat down and wrote down all the things that would

01:14:20.310 --> 01:14:23.010
make people more susceptible to the virus, that's

01:14:23.010 --> 01:14:24.890
what they told you. Well, don't go outside. Don't

01:14:24.890 --> 01:14:27.130
see people that you love. We'll just get fast

01:14:27.130 --> 01:14:29.270
food delivered to your house and alcohol. Binge

01:14:29.270 --> 01:14:31.510
watch the Tiger King and don't look at the sun.

01:14:31.989 --> 01:14:35.149
I mean, it was awful. And there were no lessons

01:14:35.149 --> 01:14:38.329
on the back end. And what do you do if you've

01:14:38.329 --> 01:14:40.250
got cancer? Yeah, that's one conversation. But

01:14:40.250 --> 01:14:42.029
the biggest conversation was, well, what do you

01:14:42.029 --> 01:14:44.520
do to prevent? cardiovascular disease cancers

01:14:44.520 --> 01:14:48.020
strokes you know mental health challenges i mean

01:14:48.020 --> 01:14:50.239
all these things are preventable and you know

01:14:50.239 --> 01:14:53.159
the the irony is in a lot of like the doctor

01:14:53.159 --> 01:14:57.380
said if we just went back to how we existed a

01:14:57.380 --> 01:15:00.479
hundred years ago as far as how we move what

01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:03.770
our food looks like you know our community that

01:15:03.770 --> 01:15:05.850
would be 80 % of the fight right there, just

01:15:05.850 --> 01:15:08.250
rolling the clock back. And then use some of

01:15:08.250 --> 01:15:10.989
the modern ancient plant medicines, some of the

01:15:10.989 --> 01:15:13.909
modern medicines, and infuse that. And now, my

01:15:13.909 --> 01:15:16.850
goodness, you'd have a population that was thriving.

01:15:17.189 --> 01:15:20.470
But as I've pointed out many, many times, as

01:15:20.470 --> 01:15:24.369
I sit here in America in 2026, post -COVID, where

01:15:24.369 --> 01:15:26.850
the lesson should have been a healthier nation

01:15:26.850 --> 01:15:30.270
is a more resilient nation to disease, we're

01:15:30.270 --> 01:15:35.100
75 % obese or overweight. So no lesson was learned.

01:15:35.180 --> 01:15:37.359
And it's no wonder that we have a cancer epidemic

01:15:37.359 --> 01:15:40.020
and an opioid crisis and all these other things,

01:15:40.060 --> 01:15:43.539
because no one's actually leaning into all the

01:15:43.539 --> 01:15:45.340
politics is still, like you said, on the back

01:15:45.340 --> 01:15:48.100
end of that bell curve, because sadly, there's

01:15:48.100 --> 01:15:51.039
a lot of money to be made in sick people. Yeah.

01:15:51.730 --> 01:15:54.189
Well, and that's really, I think the biggest

01:15:54.189 --> 01:15:56.750
thing, if you really wanted to be revolutionary

01:15:56.750 --> 01:16:00.630
in the US, what you would do is say in two years,

01:16:00.850 --> 01:16:03.949
healthcare cannot be a shareholder value. If

01:16:03.949 --> 01:16:05.949
you really cared about people, I say, you know

01:16:05.949 --> 01:16:09.270
what? There will no longer be any for -profit

01:16:09.270 --> 01:16:13.350
insurance companies. And we are going to, I mean,

01:16:13.390 --> 01:16:15.789
I know it would like people's head will explode

01:16:15.789 --> 01:16:18.329
me even saying this, but saying, you know what?

01:16:18.329 --> 01:16:22.020
You can only make 10%. off of pharmaceutical

01:16:22.020 --> 01:16:24.500
drugs, period. Because that's still a pretty

01:16:24.500 --> 01:16:28.699
sweet profit. And Mark Cuban's Cost Plus Drugs

01:16:28.699 --> 01:16:31.380
has shown that in the US. He's making a pretty

01:16:31.380 --> 01:16:34.100
good profit just by bringing the prices down

01:16:34.100 --> 01:16:36.739
and being transparent. But the biggest challenge

01:16:36.739 --> 01:16:40.880
is it's all for profit. It can't be. This is

01:16:40.880 --> 01:16:44.840
a basic human right. An advanced society would

01:16:44.840 --> 01:16:48.380
say healthcare is a basic human right. not a

01:16:48.380 --> 01:16:50.579
shareholder value. An advanced society would

01:16:50.579 --> 01:16:55.899
do that. And with that, innovation would matter.

01:16:56.539 --> 01:16:59.420
Health would matter because it's your taxpayer

01:16:59.420 --> 01:17:04.180
dollars that are holding up massive CEO salaries

01:17:04.180 --> 01:17:07.380
and massive shareholder paybacks. So if you could

01:17:07.380 --> 01:17:10.279
just clean that up, you could do all this. And

01:17:10.279 --> 01:17:14.020
it's not that hard. I know, like I said, some

01:17:14.020 --> 01:17:17.060
people's heads are going to explode with that.

01:17:17.710 --> 01:17:19.989
But the happiness factor, like you could actually

01:17:19.989 --> 01:17:23.029
start moving towards Bhutan and what does gross

01:17:23.029 --> 01:17:27.449
national happiness look like? Like we live in

01:17:27.449 --> 01:17:29.569
a society, we live in a world right now where

01:17:29.569 --> 01:17:32.350
there is enough resources for everyone. There's

01:17:32.350 --> 01:17:34.989
enough resources for everyone to be happy. There's

01:17:34.989 --> 01:17:38.289
enough resources for everyone to be well. This

01:17:38.289 --> 01:17:42.109
division of have and have nots is artificial.

01:17:43.149 --> 01:17:46.880
Everyone could be healthy in the US. Everyone

01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:49.859
could have a great life in the US. There is no

01:17:49.859 --> 01:17:53.119
reason that it's not happening other than we

01:17:53.119 --> 01:17:55.920
bought into shareholder value for healthcare.

01:17:57.220 --> 01:17:59.500
And you remove that and suddenly everyone's healthy.

01:18:00.680 --> 01:18:02.460
It wouldn't take long. I bet you it would take

01:18:02.460 --> 01:18:07.619
10 years and I'll probably have a bullet on my

01:18:07.619 --> 01:18:11.199
head now. I'm not the first to say it though.

01:18:13.800 --> 01:18:19.079
We know this. We know this, right? And the good

01:18:19.079 --> 01:18:21.800
thing is there are, in the U .S., there are some

01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:25.659
HMOs that are coming as nonprofits. There are

01:18:25.659 --> 01:18:30.819
some HMOs that are coming as cooperatives. So

01:18:30.819 --> 01:18:33.720
if you can find those folks and uplift them,

01:18:33.840 --> 01:18:36.060
they're fantastic because that is the future

01:18:36.060 --> 01:18:40.260
of healthcare, is where you pool your money.

01:18:40.340 --> 01:18:42.159
This is what insurance is supposed to be, right?

01:18:42.199 --> 01:18:44.649
You pool your money. and then you when you need

01:18:44.649 --> 01:18:48.369
the treatment you get it right there's not supposed

01:18:48.369 --> 01:18:50.630
to be shareholders in that equation anywhere

01:18:50.630 --> 01:18:53.189
so how they snuck in there i don't know but it's

01:18:53.189 --> 01:18:57.130
time for them to go i've said this many times

01:18:57.130 --> 01:18:59.949
on here like the number of people i've had who

01:18:59.949 --> 01:19:02.979
are from different countries that have an incredible

01:19:02.979 --> 01:19:05.739
solution. So the way Norway does prisons, Finland's

01:19:05.739 --> 01:19:08.359
education system, Portugal's decriminalization

01:19:08.359 --> 01:19:11.500
of addiction. And I think that the British NHS

01:19:11.500 --> 01:19:15.439
at its core, how it was intended to be, is such

01:19:15.439 --> 01:19:20.720
an amazing structure for healthcare. Because

01:19:20.720 --> 01:19:22.739
if you think about it, if you've got, as you

01:19:22.739 --> 01:19:25.439
said, a pot of taxpayers' money, and that is

01:19:25.439 --> 01:19:28.439
going to... when people really need it you know

01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:30.699
everything from childbirth to get hit by a bus

01:19:30.699 --> 01:19:33.180
to god forbid you get cancer you know end of

01:19:33.180 --> 01:19:37.180
life etc then the drive is to make the nation

01:19:37.180 --> 01:19:39.560
as healthy as possible let's try and use as little

01:19:39.560 --> 01:19:41.899
of this tax money as we can unless we need it

01:19:41.899 --> 01:19:44.300
so now you have healthy british people which

01:19:44.300 --> 01:19:46.739
was the case back in the you know 70s when it

01:19:46.739 --> 01:19:50.199
was really thriving but if you have a profit

01:19:50.199 --> 01:19:53.680
-based system like america then the inverse is

01:19:53.680 --> 01:19:56.729
true you know let's People are sick. We're going

01:19:56.729 --> 01:19:59.350
to make the most money. If we go to war, my weapon

01:19:59.350 --> 01:20:02.189
manufacturer friends make the most money. It's

01:20:02.189 --> 01:20:06.010
just basic economics. So the moment you have

01:20:06.010 --> 01:20:09.149
a profit -based system, it's the people themselves

01:20:09.149 --> 01:20:12.170
that lose. And it kills me because, like I said,

01:20:12.250 --> 01:20:14.090
I mean, the disease that we have in this country,

01:20:14.149 --> 01:20:17.689
the unnecessary premature deaths and just the

01:20:17.689 --> 01:20:19.909
low quality of life that so many people live.

01:20:20.010 --> 01:20:21.949
I mean, you see these obese children and it breaks

01:20:21.949 --> 01:20:23.689
my heart. Like they're never even going to know

01:20:23.689 --> 01:20:26.770
what it feels like to be an energetic, athletic

01:20:26.770 --> 01:20:29.649
child unless they manage to turn a corner somehow.

01:20:30.109 --> 01:20:33.069
So the fact that, you know, I think it's because

01:20:33.069 --> 01:20:35.350
we are so sick and so tired that people don't

01:20:35.350 --> 01:20:38.319
fight back and don't question it. if you have

01:20:38.319 --> 01:20:40.720
a truly altruistic system where you just take

01:20:40.720 --> 01:20:43.260
care of each other as a nation and that drives

01:20:43.260 --> 01:20:45.560
the health of the nation scandinavia is a great

01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:49.279
example then everyone wins everyone wins then

01:20:49.279 --> 01:20:55.619
yeah it's sad when you when you look at the uh

01:20:55.619 --> 01:20:58.920
like a ceo of a for any for -profit organization

01:20:58.920 --> 01:21:01.800
but specifically publicly traded organizations

01:21:01.800 --> 01:21:06.579
their job is to increase the shareholder value

01:21:06.579 --> 01:21:12.079
or increase the stock price and at it regardless

01:21:12.079 --> 01:21:15.340
of at what expense like and then currently it's

01:21:15.340 --> 01:21:17.960
just at the expense of the people in different

01:21:17.960 --> 01:21:21.260
industries and i mean we're talking about medical

01:21:21.260 --> 01:21:23.899
specifically but we haven't even gotten into

01:21:23.899 --> 01:21:27.060
like food and the types of foods that are out

01:21:27.060 --> 01:21:30.300
there and the different ingredients that are

01:21:31.119 --> 01:21:34.199
terrible for our health and you look at what

01:21:34.199 --> 01:21:37.760
the what children are eating and consuming and

01:21:37.760 --> 01:21:40.800
i've got a 13 and a 14 year old and it's a daily

01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:43.579
battle like trying to educate them and teach

01:21:43.579 --> 01:21:46.699
them like don't don't eat the jolly rancher there's

01:21:46.699 --> 01:21:49.420
recent research that there's high level of arsenic

01:21:49.420 --> 01:21:55.359
in them like it's yeah so it's it's a it's a

01:21:55.359 --> 01:21:58.460
battle it's all it that feels like it's unwinnable

01:21:58.460 --> 01:22:03.060
at this point in time But tying it back to Pam's

01:22:03.060 --> 01:22:06.939
comment on innovation, this is when we need the

01:22:06.939 --> 01:22:11.180
innovation, we need shifts in policy, all those

01:22:11.180 --> 01:22:15.579
things to benefit current population, but also

01:22:15.579 --> 01:22:19.420
the up and coming generations. I want to kind

01:22:19.420 --> 01:22:23.319
of springboard that back to also is that, you

01:22:23.319 --> 01:22:26.770
know, the innovation. We also have a mythology

01:22:26.770 --> 01:22:29.930
that anything happens top down. It never does.

01:22:30.090 --> 01:22:32.609
There has never been cool innovation that has

01:22:32.609 --> 01:22:35.689
happened top down. Complete myth, never happened.

01:22:35.890 --> 01:22:38.449
Everything happens from the bottom up. And that's

01:22:38.449 --> 01:22:42.189
what I love too. Like Roots to Thrive chose specifically

01:22:42.189 --> 01:22:46.170
to be a nonprofit, right? That way our service

01:22:46.170 --> 01:22:49.130
is to the people that come through our program,

01:22:49.289 --> 01:22:52.840
period. like that's who we serve like not only

01:22:52.840 --> 01:22:55.560
is the team healthy and taken care of but then

01:22:55.560 --> 01:22:59.380
we we focus all of that there so any bill is

01:22:59.380 --> 01:23:02.960
the money guy he keeps us like straight and narrow

01:23:02.960 --> 01:23:06.460
on this but but because of that profits get to

01:23:06.460 --> 01:23:08.439
go back to scholarships so people go through

01:23:08.439 --> 01:23:12.479
the program That's a win. That's a win -win.

01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:14.899
All of us healthcare providers in the program

01:23:14.899 --> 01:23:17.600
feel great about what we're doing because we

01:23:17.600 --> 01:23:21.119
know we're serving the participants. And this

01:23:21.119 --> 01:23:24.399
goes back to, also, this is a bottom -up program.

01:23:25.060 --> 01:23:28.359
We tried to bring it into the system. We realized

01:23:28.359 --> 01:23:30.560
that most of the system is being run by people

01:23:30.560 --> 01:23:33.500
that are not courageous. They don't understand.

01:23:34.060 --> 01:23:36.560
patients and what what is needed to get patients

01:23:36.560 --> 01:23:40.000
well and many of them are mbas so they've never

01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:43.140
been in service to humanity they've been in service

01:23:43.140 --> 01:23:47.600
to money or business and so when we took ourselves

01:23:47.600 --> 01:23:50.340
out of the system and turned it into the non

01:23:50.340 --> 01:23:54.039
-profit suddenly like this grassroots approach

01:23:54.039 --> 01:23:58.680
bottom up means everything's on the table we

01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:02.550
can do everything We can serve, we can innovate,

01:24:02.810 --> 01:24:05.789
we can publish, we can train. We have a really

01:24:05.789 --> 01:24:08.789
robust training program where people from all

01:24:08.789 --> 01:24:10.970
over the world come and train with us so they

01:24:10.970 --> 01:24:13.350
can take what we've learned back to their communities

01:24:13.350 --> 01:24:16.149
and do the same thing, like incredibly collaborative.

01:24:17.010 --> 01:24:20.010
And I think that is really important for people

01:24:20.010 --> 01:24:22.869
that are listening, is we lead from the bottom

01:24:22.869 --> 01:24:27.449
up so everyone can be a leader. So whether you're

01:24:27.449 --> 01:24:29.909
at a fire department that needs to change, it's

01:24:29.909 --> 01:24:31.729
going to start from the bottom up. It's going

01:24:31.729 --> 01:24:34.869
to start from the members demanding the change.

01:24:35.329 --> 01:24:37.489
Whether you're in a health care system in a state

01:24:37.489 --> 01:24:39.949
that needs to change, it's going to start from

01:24:39.949 --> 01:24:41.789
the bottom up, from a group of people coming

01:24:41.789 --> 01:24:44.590
together and say, let's pool our money and create

01:24:44.590 --> 01:24:50.250
our own health care HMO. You know, we have to

01:24:50.250 --> 01:24:52.930
just stop pretending people know that people

01:24:52.930 --> 01:24:57.270
that are up here and that we oddly, oddly give

01:24:57.270 --> 01:25:02.550
the name leader to are not leaders. And it all

01:25:02.550 --> 01:25:05.069
happens from the bottom up, which is exciting,

01:25:05.229 --> 01:25:07.649
which means everybody watching can do something.

01:25:07.750 --> 01:25:10.109
Everyone can go, how can I make this world better?

01:25:10.989 --> 01:25:14.329
What can I do? Do not give away your power. And

01:25:14.329 --> 01:25:19.270
this is of such a... a positive, pivotal time

01:25:19.270 --> 01:25:21.970
in history where never before have people had

01:25:21.970 --> 01:25:25.350
the opportunity to be more powerful, to be more

01:25:25.350 --> 01:25:29.670
innovative. And we're living at levels of income

01:25:29.670 --> 01:25:33.890
we've never had before. It's crazy. We're living

01:25:33.890 --> 01:25:37.229
better than kings used to live. All of us, every

01:25:37.229 --> 01:25:39.529
single one of us are living better than royalty

01:25:39.529 --> 01:25:43.489
used to live. So I'm incredibly optimistic, but

01:25:43.489 --> 01:25:45.630
I just want to put that out there. It's all grassroots.

01:25:46.520 --> 01:25:49.279
It all comes from the bottom, all innovation,

01:25:49.579 --> 01:25:52.460
everything. And so everybody out there has now,

01:25:52.640 --> 01:25:56.239
once these words hit your ears, you now have

01:25:56.239 --> 01:25:58.399
the obligation to do something with it and go,

01:25:58.460 --> 01:26:00.640
how can I make my community better? Whether that's

01:26:00.640 --> 01:26:05.699
putting in a garden, helping a neighbor, advocating

01:26:05.699 --> 01:26:08.680
for mental health care, advocating for better

01:26:08.680 --> 01:26:11.319
food section in the grocery stores, whatever.

01:26:11.930 --> 01:26:14.489
The sky's the limit if we all really lean into

01:26:14.489 --> 01:26:16.210
a little bit of our own personal leadership.

01:26:17.789 --> 01:26:20.689
I always hate when I'm told, you know, if you

01:26:20.689 --> 01:26:22.510
want to make change in the fire service, then

01:26:22.510 --> 01:26:26.149
promote. Because it doesn't work, like you said.

01:26:26.520 --> 01:26:28.720
And it's funny because I've made the most change

01:26:28.720 --> 01:26:30.720
when I left the fire service and was outside

01:26:30.720 --> 01:26:32.680
the castle walls saying, all right, and I'm starting

01:26:32.680 --> 01:26:35.619
to throw fireballs over the top. Now we're changing,

01:26:35.800 --> 01:26:37.739
you know, now you're paying attention, but it's

01:26:37.739 --> 01:26:39.760
true. And then if you want to kind of circle

01:26:39.760 --> 01:26:41.119
around to what we were talking about earlier,

01:26:41.279 --> 01:26:46.859
if you are Richard Sackler and you were the head

01:26:46.859 --> 01:26:49.560
of Purdue Farmer and OxyContin that was, you

01:26:49.560 --> 01:26:53.039
know, forced on doctors and they, you know, lied

01:26:53.039 --> 01:26:55.829
to him. and told him it wasn't addictive. And

01:26:55.829 --> 01:26:58.529
now as we sit here, 100 ,000 Americans die from

01:26:58.529 --> 01:27:01.390
opioids every year, and you sleep soundly in

01:27:01.390 --> 01:27:04.810
your bed, you're a sociopath, not someone to

01:27:04.810 --> 01:27:07.010
be revered in the business world. If you're the

01:27:07.010 --> 01:27:09.189
head of William Morris, if you're the head of

01:27:09.189 --> 01:27:12.689
a weapons manufacturer, whatever it is, and your

01:27:12.689 --> 01:27:15.270
products are taking hundreds of thousands of

01:27:15.270 --> 01:27:17.789
lives, millions of lives, tobacco still kills

01:27:17.789 --> 01:27:20.210
8 million people worldwide at the moment, and

01:27:20.210 --> 01:27:23.310
you sleep well in your bed, then you are... A

01:27:23.310 --> 01:27:26.489
complete sociopath. So we have to also deconstruct,

01:27:26.510 --> 01:27:29.090
as you said, what is the leader? What is this

01:27:29.090 --> 01:27:32.989
person that we put on a pedestal? Because that's

01:27:32.989 --> 01:27:36.270
not. They're taking. It's the opposite of everything

01:27:36.270 --> 01:27:38.470
that all the holy books that you subscribe to

01:27:38.470 --> 01:27:40.369
is teaching you about. Kindness, compassion,

01:27:40.689 --> 01:27:44.069
empathy, community, service, gratitude. They

01:27:44.069 --> 01:27:47.069
are the antithesis of that. So I could not agree

01:27:47.069 --> 01:27:50.350
more when we realize that we are the base of

01:27:50.350 --> 01:27:53.340
that pyramid. And, you know, if we walk away,

01:27:53.399 --> 01:27:55.939
then everything crumbles. That's when you really

01:27:55.939 --> 01:27:57.699
force change. And it's even, you know, like they

01:27:57.699 --> 01:27:59.920
say, vote with your dollar. If tomorrow no one

01:27:59.920 --> 01:28:02.060
ever bought a McDonald's burger again, McDonald's

01:28:02.060 --> 01:28:04.399
would collapse. I think that would be great personally.

01:28:04.579 --> 01:28:08.920
But yeah, so but I think that they've done they,

01:28:09.020 --> 01:28:10.739
you know, the mysterious they have done such

01:28:10.739 --> 01:28:14.060
a good job of thinking people that they're, excuse

01:28:14.060 --> 01:28:16.359
me, getting people to think that they are powerless.

01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:20.039
rather than realizing, as we see throughout history,

01:28:20.140 --> 01:28:22.020
when people have had enough and they stand side

01:28:22.020 --> 01:28:24.500
by side, I mean, they can topple governments.

01:28:24.579 --> 01:28:30.899
They can move mountains. Yeah. Yeah, grab the

01:28:30.899 --> 01:28:34.439
pitchforks. And then the torture. Throw the fireballs.

01:28:35.840 --> 01:28:40.619
The bottom -up mentality that Pam was talking

01:28:40.619 --> 01:28:45.260
about, in our first cohort, which was... 2020,

01:28:45.539 --> 01:28:49.520
I think, 2019, 2020. Yeah, early 2020, yep. Yeah,

01:28:49.539 --> 01:28:54.140
we had 15 healthcare providers who came through

01:28:54.140 --> 01:28:56.159
our program that were suffering from burnout

01:28:56.159 --> 01:29:01.579
related to COVID. And we were trying to figure

01:29:01.579 --> 01:29:03.439
out, do we want to call them patients? Do we

01:29:03.439 --> 01:29:05.680
want to call them participants? But we decided

01:29:05.680 --> 01:29:08.890
on the term patient partner. And the intention

01:29:08.890 --> 01:29:13.029
there was they helped us build the program. So

01:29:13.029 --> 01:29:16.329
yes, they came in as patients, but they informed

01:29:16.329 --> 01:29:18.869
how we were going to run our program ongoing.

01:29:19.529 --> 01:29:23.050
And we continue to do that. We always gather

01:29:23.050 --> 01:29:25.789
feedback from participants. We have a team that

01:29:25.789 --> 01:29:29.649
reviews the feedback. And then we have a team

01:29:29.649 --> 01:29:32.609
that decides on what do we implement of the feedback.

01:29:32.909 --> 01:29:35.010
And that's, like Pam mentioned, we constantly

01:29:35.010 --> 01:29:39.539
earn quality improvement. uh on all levels of

01:29:39.539 --> 01:29:43.319
our program and a lot of that is driven by participants

01:29:43.319 --> 01:29:47.319
in our programs so it's participants have a voice

01:29:47.319 --> 01:29:51.800
in what we do and it's a big voice and we can't

01:29:51.800 --> 01:29:56.020
deliver on everything but i'd say a good handful

01:29:56.020 --> 01:29:58.800
of things we absolutely implement and i think

01:29:58.800 --> 01:30:00.739
that's part of the reason why our program has

01:30:01.239 --> 01:30:03.420
the results that we have is because it's heavily

01:30:03.420 --> 01:30:05.960
informed by those that come through our program.

01:30:06.140 --> 01:30:08.859
And a lot of our team has also been through the

01:30:08.859 --> 01:30:12.739
program. So there's an embodied experience that

01:30:12.739 --> 01:30:16.859
each of them have. They've lived through what

01:30:16.859 --> 01:30:19.119
participants have lived through. They identify

01:30:19.119 --> 01:30:25.140
with it. They empathize and they can meet them

01:30:25.140 --> 01:30:27.319
where they need to be met and hold them in that

01:30:27.319 --> 01:30:29.479
unconditional positive regard. So just really.

01:30:30.079 --> 01:30:34.199
echoing that bottom -up piece and like a hospital

01:30:34.199 --> 01:30:37.279
doesn't they might have a comment box for you

01:30:37.279 --> 01:30:39.279
know drop your comment in here and let us know

01:30:39.279 --> 01:30:43.819
how we're doing guaranteed 99 of them don't even

01:30:43.819 --> 01:30:48.779
get read probably uh but we have a comment box

01:30:48.779 --> 01:30:52.439
and i mean it's not it's an electronic comment

01:30:52.439 --> 01:30:55.979
box but yeah we we keep track of it we implement

01:30:55.979 --> 01:31:00.529
it and it's a huge win for us Like we get to

01:31:00.529 --> 01:31:04.229
create a program that participants want and one

01:31:04.229 --> 01:31:07.630
that works. Well, I'll put this to both of you,

01:31:07.630 --> 01:31:10.590
whoever wants to answer this. You have, as you

01:31:10.590 --> 01:31:12.310
mentioned, the resilience program, and then you

01:31:12.310 --> 01:31:14.189
have the resilience program with the integrated

01:31:14.189 --> 01:31:17.810
psychedelic therapy. So talk to me about the

01:31:17.810 --> 01:31:19.850
two and then give me an overview of what someone

01:31:19.850 --> 01:31:22.880
would experience if they went through. Maybe

01:31:22.880 --> 01:31:24.939
I can talk about the overview, Pam, and then

01:31:24.939 --> 01:31:28.380
you can get the second part. So both programs

01:31:28.380 --> 01:31:32.899
are 12 weeks in duration. They run in parallel.

01:31:33.140 --> 01:31:39.920
So each participant is onboarded. So they get

01:31:39.920 --> 01:31:42.739
referred into our program by a family physician,

01:31:42.979 --> 01:31:46.609
psychiatrist, nurse practitioner. uh the resilience

01:31:46.609 --> 01:31:49.909
program is not a medical program so they don't

01:31:49.909 --> 01:31:53.550
require it doesn't require a referral but all

01:31:53.550 --> 01:31:56.989
participants Our intake and with an intake nurse,

01:31:57.229 --> 01:32:01.069
and that's about a 45 -minute intake, really

01:32:01.069 --> 01:32:04.970
intentional in the questions that she asks, really

01:32:04.970 --> 01:32:07.189
wanting to get to know the participant as best

01:32:07.189 --> 01:32:11.510
as we can. Julia Sheffield is our lead intake

01:32:11.510 --> 01:32:16.350
nurse, who's incredible at the role, really meets

01:32:16.350 --> 01:32:19.729
participants where they're at and gets to know

01:32:19.729 --> 01:32:23.409
them so that we can place them in the proper

01:32:23.409 --> 01:32:26.890
small group. And we have a team that assists

01:32:26.890 --> 01:32:33.409
her in the placing of folks. If folks are participating

01:32:33.409 --> 01:32:35.489
in the psychedelic -assisted therapy portion

01:32:35.489 --> 01:32:37.850
utilizing ketamine, then they go see Dr. Pam

01:32:37.850 --> 01:32:42.130
just to make sure it's safe for them to participate

01:32:42.130 --> 01:32:44.869
in it and they can ask any questions to the doctor

01:32:44.869 --> 01:32:48.670
at that point in time too. Once they're onboarded

01:32:48.670 --> 01:32:50.829
and go through the intake process, then we start

01:32:50.829 --> 01:32:55.010
the cohort. Cohorts range in size. depending

01:32:55.010 --> 01:32:57.770
on the enrollment, but anywhere from on average

01:32:57.770 --> 01:33:04.069
24 to 32 participants. And they're part of a

01:33:04.069 --> 01:33:06.430
small group, and that's usually seven or eight

01:33:06.430 --> 01:33:08.930
participants in a small group. And then they

01:33:08.930 --> 01:33:12.369
have two facilitators, a lead facilitator and

01:33:12.369 --> 01:33:16.810
a co -facilitator. And there's a weekly meeting

01:33:16.810 --> 01:33:19.970
that's virtual Tuesday evenings from 6 p .m.

01:33:19.970 --> 01:33:23.210
to 8 p .m. The whole cohort gathers together

01:33:23.210 --> 01:33:26.829
as one. We're a community. We're intentional

01:33:26.829 --> 01:33:31.229
in how we gather. So the first, I'd say, 30 minutes

01:33:31.229 --> 01:33:36.569
of the two hours is everybody together. And there's

01:33:36.569 --> 01:33:42.189
some basic announcements that we make, but then

01:33:42.189 --> 01:33:45.310
the bulk of the time is spent. more educational.

01:33:45.489 --> 01:33:48.789
So there's a topic each of the 12 weeks and the

01:33:48.789 --> 01:33:53.590
topics are wide ranging. But a member of our

01:33:53.590 --> 01:33:57.810
team speaks to the topic depending on the week.

01:33:58.569 --> 01:34:03.649
So this week was emotional conditioning and pathways

01:34:03.649 --> 01:34:06.729
of expression. And this was taught by Todd Haspect,

01:34:07.029 --> 01:34:09.930
who's a facilitator and Wes Taylor, who's a facilitator.

01:34:11.130 --> 01:34:14.390
After that, coming to know We call it coming

01:34:14.390 --> 01:34:17.770
to know the educational part. We do a pause practice,

01:34:17.909 --> 01:34:21.489
and that's just a transition from our heads to

01:34:21.489 --> 01:34:26.670
our bodies, creating some space to, yeah, we

01:34:26.670 --> 01:34:29.649
live so much of our life in our heads, kind of

01:34:29.649 --> 01:34:32.710
go, go, go mentality in the society we live in.

01:34:32.770 --> 01:34:37.090
So creating five or seven minutes just to slow

01:34:37.090 --> 01:34:40.630
down a little bit. And what that does is biologically

01:34:40.630 --> 01:34:44.090
preps our bodies. for more meaningful connection.

01:34:44.430 --> 01:34:48.710
So calming the nervous system, getting us prepped

01:34:48.710 --> 01:34:51.789
to go into the small group at that point. So

01:34:51.789 --> 01:34:54.770
on Zoom, then everybody goes into a breakout

01:34:54.770 --> 01:34:59.630
room and is with their small group at that point

01:34:59.630 --> 01:35:03.939
in time. And there's a question. that each person

01:35:03.939 --> 01:35:06.840
or a prompt that each person answers and the

01:35:06.840 --> 01:35:10.159
prompt is connected to the topic that was spoken

01:35:10.159 --> 01:35:12.760
to when everybody was together in the large group

01:35:12.760 --> 01:35:16.920
so those there's a 12 of those sessions throughout

01:35:16.920 --> 01:35:19.800
so 12 weeks long they're two hours in duration

01:35:19.800 --> 01:35:25.100
and then on weeks five seven and nine we have

01:35:25.100 --> 01:35:29.220
the ketamine assisted therapy sessions and those

01:35:29.220 --> 01:35:32.439
are again, in your same small group that you

01:35:32.439 --> 01:35:38.739
meet with each of the 12 weeks. And the unique

01:35:38.739 --> 01:35:43.880
piece is whether you're in the resilience program

01:35:43.880 --> 01:35:46.720
or whether you're in the program with ketamine

01:35:46.720 --> 01:35:51.539
-assisted therapy, everybody's mixed. So James,

01:35:52.319 --> 01:35:55.060
if you're receiving ketamine -assisted therapy,

01:35:55.899 --> 01:35:58.199
let's say Pam's receiving it as well and we're

01:35:58.199 --> 01:36:00.420
all in the same small group and I'm maybe not

01:36:00.420 --> 01:36:03.399
receiving it. We're still in the same small group.

01:36:03.680 --> 01:36:06.720
I would still be welcome to come to the ketamine

01:36:06.720 --> 01:36:10.039
assisted therapy session, participate in the

01:36:10.039 --> 01:36:13.460
experience, but just not receive the medicine.

01:36:13.699 --> 01:36:16.880
And that's a really unique piece and a good handful

01:36:16.880 --> 01:36:20.119
of the resilience participants do come to those

01:36:20.119 --> 01:36:22.840
sessions and have very meaningful experiences.

01:36:25.000 --> 01:36:28.939
Yeah, so that's a basic overview of the 12 weeks.

01:36:29.100 --> 01:36:32.619
Within the 12 weeks, there's lots of optional

01:36:32.619 --> 01:36:35.819
sessions that we offer as add -ons that are included.

01:36:36.260 --> 01:36:40.460
We have integration sessions after the Monday

01:36:40.460 --> 01:36:45.279
after the medicine sessions. We have, Pam mentioned

01:36:45.279 --> 01:36:48.340
Dr. Crosby -Wattler, a psychiatrist. He offers

01:36:48.340 --> 01:36:51.279
different preparation and integration sessions

01:36:51.279 --> 01:36:56.409
for groups. Elder Geraldine Manson, a Snuneymuk

01:36:56.409 --> 01:37:00.710
elder, she will do groups with Crosby as well

01:37:00.710 --> 01:37:05.350
that are quite unique, where Crosby brings the

01:37:05.350 --> 01:37:08.609
Western. knowledge in medicine. And then Elder

01:37:08.609 --> 01:37:11.170
Geraldine brings the more indigenous ways of

01:37:11.170 --> 01:37:14.789
knowing. And they weave beautifully, the two

01:37:14.789 --> 01:37:16.770
of them. They've got so much wisdom and knowledge.

01:37:17.130 --> 01:37:21.350
And then Helen Wattler, who's an energy worker

01:37:21.350 --> 01:37:26.270
who specializes in EFT or tapping, she does group

01:37:26.270 --> 01:37:30.489
tapping sessions. So it's almost like two, three

01:37:30.489 --> 01:37:33.170
nights a week. There's options for folks to drop

01:37:33.170 --> 01:37:38.180
in with us. step into the container and learn

01:37:38.180 --> 01:37:42.300
something, learn a new tool that they can implement

01:37:42.300 --> 01:37:47.199
in their day -to -day life. Yeah, so that's the

01:37:47.199 --> 01:37:50.760
overview, just in a very quick few minutes there.

01:37:51.239 --> 01:37:54.659
Pam, I'll pass to you to see if you want to add

01:37:54.659 --> 01:37:58.819
anything to what I said. Yeah, what we really

01:37:58.819 --> 01:38:02.119
find is, you know, a lot of, I mean, it sounds

01:38:02.119 --> 01:38:04.180
like a lot of words, and Phil did a great job

01:38:04.180 --> 01:38:06.180
explaining it, but what it's really doing is

01:38:06.180 --> 01:38:08.479
bringing people together. And they're starting

01:38:08.479 --> 01:38:12.600
to, like, we get harmed in relationship, we heal

01:38:12.600 --> 01:38:14.979
in relationship. So it's part of that too. So

01:38:14.979 --> 01:38:16.699
they're coming together as a group, realizing

01:38:16.699 --> 01:38:18.479
also that they're not the only ones with the

01:38:18.479 --> 01:38:21.310
problems they have. And they start forming quite

01:38:21.310 --> 01:38:23.409
often with mental health challenges as we start

01:38:23.409 --> 01:38:26.210
isolating, right? We move away from others when

01:38:26.210 --> 01:38:29.250
we really need to be moving in. And Roots to

01:38:29.250 --> 01:38:31.590
Thrive is all designed about getting people to

01:38:31.590 --> 01:38:34.909
move inward, lean in to all this. And so everything

01:38:34.909 --> 01:38:38.560
is so... thoughtfully structured that it helps

01:38:38.560 --> 01:38:41.100
people build trust with each other helps people

01:38:41.100 --> 01:38:44.579
start to be able to talk openly be more vulnerable

01:38:44.579 --> 01:38:47.239
and figure out where they're going like what

01:38:47.239 --> 01:38:49.300
are their intentions for their own healing path

01:38:49.300 --> 01:38:52.180
and their own healing journey and because they're

01:38:52.180 --> 01:38:54.119
traveling it with all these other folks that

01:38:54.119 --> 01:38:57.260
are equally suffering there's an immediate healing

01:38:57.260 --> 01:38:58.960
effect there that people start to go oh i'm not

01:38:58.960 --> 01:39:02.579
the only one I thought I was the only firefighter

01:39:02.579 --> 01:39:04.979
with PTSD. No, here I'm with seven other firefighters

01:39:04.979 --> 01:39:07.180
and we're all saying the same thing. I'm not

01:39:07.180 --> 01:39:10.800
crazy. This is real. This is not a weakness.

01:39:11.359 --> 01:39:14.159
They start to see how this is, as I said earlier,

01:39:14.420 --> 01:39:16.800
they're all having normal reactions to their

01:39:16.800 --> 01:39:19.500
life. and now they're starting to make friends

01:39:19.500 --> 01:39:22.100
they're starting to make bonds one of our participants

01:39:22.100 --> 01:39:24.739
said anything like i can't believe i came into

01:39:24.739 --> 01:39:27.279
this program and you gave me friends like like

01:39:27.279 --> 01:39:31.000
wow so and so but even before they get to their

01:39:31.000 --> 01:39:33.899
first psychedelic session we're already seeing

01:39:33.899 --> 01:39:36.779
reductions in substance use we're seeing reductions

01:39:36.779 --> 01:39:39.840
in anxiety so there it's already like the tools

01:39:39.840 --> 01:39:42.710
are starting to work So they're creating a toolbox.

01:39:43.010 --> 01:39:45.649
And one of the other things that is really, you

01:39:45.649 --> 01:39:49.050
know, we had to go online because of COVID. And

01:39:49.050 --> 01:39:50.810
we weren't totally sure it was going to work.

01:39:50.869 --> 01:39:53.149
But what we found is because people are at home

01:39:53.149 --> 01:39:55.050
for the first four weeks of the programming,

01:39:55.270 --> 01:39:57.529
they're sharing what they're learning with their

01:39:57.529 --> 01:40:00.229
families and their kids. So they're kind of bringing

01:40:00.229 --> 01:40:02.390
their family along as opposed to if they had

01:40:02.390 --> 01:40:04.649
just picked up and come to a retreat center and

01:40:04.649 --> 01:40:07.380
did the same thing. they're actually taking the

01:40:07.380 --> 01:40:09.619
conversation right back to their family immediately

01:40:09.619 --> 01:40:11.640
and right to their workplaces if they're still

01:40:11.640 --> 01:40:14.560
working. So we often hear from CEOs that come

01:40:14.560 --> 01:40:16.720
through our program, I'm already using the tools

01:40:16.720 --> 01:40:20.039
you're teaching me here in my boardroom. So you

01:40:20.039 --> 01:40:22.939
can see how there's all this magic in a way that's

01:40:22.939 --> 01:40:25.239
kind of happened early on. And then by the time

01:40:25.239 --> 01:40:27.460
they get to their psychedelic journey, and they

01:40:27.460 --> 01:40:30.199
come on site, which is in person, it's like,

01:40:30.199 --> 01:40:33.130
it's like, In their small groups of eight, they're

01:40:33.130 --> 01:40:34.850
like, they're already friends. They're already

01:40:34.850 --> 01:40:36.930
family. They're hugging. They're like, wow, you

01:40:36.930 --> 01:40:39.489
know, they're already connected. And then they

01:40:39.489 --> 01:40:42.130
have this beautiful ceremonial psychedelic journey.

01:40:42.489 --> 01:40:46.710
And now like they're truly, they're a team. You

01:40:46.710 --> 01:40:49.029
know, they're really embedded in their own healing

01:40:49.029 --> 01:40:51.609
and each other's healing. And they know that

01:40:51.609 --> 01:40:53.810
the team is there for them too. Like they really

01:40:53.810 --> 01:40:57.029
know that we care deeply that they get better.

01:40:57.800 --> 01:40:59.880
and that we help them and we walk with them and

01:40:59.880 --> 01:41:02.619
we're not it's one thing that phil didn't mention

01:41:02.619 --> 01:41:04.939
is it's also non -hierarchical like we really

01:41:04.939 --> 01:41:07.880
try to get rid of that hierarchy that the team

01:41:07.880 --> 01:41:12.539
is walking alongside them like we are also challenged

01:41:12.539 --> 01:41:15.619
in our day -to -day lives we also are still on

01:41:15.619 --> 01:41:18.560
our healing journey and that is another feedback

01:41:18.560 --> 01:41:21.140
we get a lot is like it was so nice to be with

01:41:21.140 --> 01:41:23.960
healthcare professionals that were just like

01:41:23.960 --> 01:41:27.460
deeply vulnerable too You know, so as opposed

01:41:27.460 --> 01:41:29.420
to me, hey, I've got my doctor hat on and my

01:41:29.420 --> 01:41:31.819
life is excellent. No, like some days my life

01:41:31.819 --> 01:41:34.600
sucks, you know, and we can we bring that in.

01:41:34.680 --> 01:41:38.600
And so what we see is this beautiful path of

01:41:38.600 --> 01:41:42.739
through the 12 weeks of some people make huge

01:41:42.739 --> 01:41:45.119
steps really quickly. Some people it's baby steps,

01:41:45.260 --> 01:41:47.100
but nonetheless, they all come through the program

01:41:47.100 --> 01:41:50.039
and they end up with friends and colleagues.

01:41:51.050 --> 01:41:53.210
that they've traveled this whole path on. Many

01:41:53.210 --> 01:41:55.369
of them stay in contact. Many of them are friends.

01:41:55.550 --> 01:41:57.710
Some of the programs right from the beginning

01:41:57.710 --> 01:41:59.989
still meet. Some of the cohorts are still meeting

01:41:59.989 --> 01:42:03.770
on a monthly basis, and they're just talking

01:42:03.770 --> 01:42:07.869
about whatever's important to them. And as Phil

01:42:07.869 --> 01:42:10.170
said earlier, we're a constant quality improvement

01:42:10.170 --> 01:42:13.949
project, so we never stop. So every cohort, every

01:42:13.949 --> 01:42:17.229
next group gets a better version than the previous

01:42:17.229 --> 01:42:20.439
group because we've improved it again. So innovation

01:42:20.439 --> 01:42:23.699
from the bottom up, really. Yeah, the remarkable

01:42:23.699 --> 01:42:29.140
thing which Pam alluded to is, so we have five

01:42:29.140 --> 01:42:32.520
weeks of two -hour sessions in the beginning,

01:42:32.680 --> 01:42:34.539
then they come to the first medicine session.

01:42:34.680 --> 01:42:38.199
So they're only together about 10 hours for the

01:42:38.199 --> 01:42:41.260
first five weeks. But when they come together

01:42:41.260 --> 01:42:43.100
face -to -face for the first time, it's like

01:42:43.100 --> 01:42:46.319
an old group of friends coming together, and

01:42:46.319 --> 01:42:48.319
they've never even met each other face -to -face.

01:42:51.350 --> 01:42:54.409
And that's highly intentional in how we structure

01:42:54.409 --> 01:42:58.869
it. And the ultimate intention of these groups

01:42:58.869 --> 01:43:02.289
is to co -create a space of unconditional positive

01:43:02.289 --> 01:43:04.609
regard. It's not us as the team creating it.

01:43:04.649 --> 01:43:06.890
It's not the participants creating it. It's all

01:43:06.890 --> 01:43:10.710
of us. It's the team and participants. And our

01:43:10.710 --> 01:43:14.989
team answers the same prompts that the participants

01:43:14.989 --> 01:43:18.680
do. Our team shows up in a vulnerable way. which

01:43:18.680 --> 01:43:23.979
is unique. And in the typical mental health field

01:43:23.979 --> 01:43:29.100
or the physicians, the medical field, doctors

01:43:29.100 --> 01:43:32.020
and therapists don't necessarily show up in a

01:43:32.020 --> 01:43:34.979
real vulnerable way, but we walk that line and

01:43:34.979 --> 01:43:37.460
we model it as best we can for participants.

01:43:37.640 --> 01:43:41.199
And that's another unique piece of our offerings.

01:43:43.229 --> 01:43:45.750
One of the things that's become apparent to me

01:43:45.750 --> 01:43:48.229
when I hear people that have done the ketamine

01:43:48.229 --> 01:43:53.039
route is when there is success. It seems like

01:43:53.039 --> 01:43:55.579
they have an infusion, but they're also they're

01:43:55.579 --> 01:43:58.579
guided through that experience when there is

01:43:58.579 --> 01:44:01.560
not success. It seems like every single time

01:44:01.560 --> 01:44:03.619
they're like, yeah, they they put in the IV and

01:44:03.619 --> 01:44:05.340
then they walked out the room and they were just

01:44:05.340 --> 01:44:08.560
left with the ketamine. And I even heard I hadn't

01:44:08.560 --> 01:44:10.000
heard this for all the time I've been talking

01:44:10.000 --> 01:44:11.960
about this until literally a few weeks ago. One

01:44:11.960 --> 01:44:14.960
of my friends told me he went to a place. He

01:44:14.960 --> 01:44:17.859
certainly doesn't think highly of this place

01:44:17.859 --> 01:44:22.210
now. So I don't know how reputable it was. But

01:44:22.210 --> 01:44:25.649
he got stuck in a K -hole during his experience,

01:44:26.029 --> 01:44:29.609
and he said basically he lived a lifetime in

01:44:29.609 --> 01:44:32.029
that K -hole, and it was traumatizing. And he

01:44:32.029 --> 01:44:35.149
actually told of a Navy SEAL who had a similar

01:44:35.149 --> 01:44:38.010
experience, had this whole family this entire

01:44:38.010 --> 01:44:41.529
lifetime. When he came out of it, he was so devastated

01:44:41.529 --> 01:44:44.270
that he'd lost this family that he basically

01:44:44.270 --> 01:44:46.770
had through his lifetime under ketamine that

01:44:46.770 --> 01:44:51.340
he ended up taking his own life. That obviously

01:44:51.340 --> 01:44:52.960
is something that needs to be discussed. So what

01:44:52.960 --> 01:44:56.539
are you seeing as far as where this is safe and

01:44:56.539 --> 01:44:58.640
effective? And what are some of the cautionary

01:44:58.640 --> 01:45:00.600
tales to make sure people aren't going to the

01:45:00.600 --> 01:45:04.800
wrong place? Yeah, I'm so glad you're bringing

01:45:04.800 --> 01:45:06.899
this up because I forget that, especially in

01:45:06.899 --> 01:45:09.020
the US, there's so many IV ketamine clinics.

01:45:09.180 --> 01:45:11.180
It is absolutely something we don't do. We don't

01:45:11.180 --> 01:45:15.920
do IV. We do intramuscular and our sessions are

01:45:15.920 --> 01:45:19.239
incredibly ceremonial. So people come in, it's

01:45:19.239 --> 01:45:23.659
a beautiful room. In the small group sessions

01:45:23.659 --> 01:45:28.020
ahead of time, there's this predictability that

01:45:28.020 --> 01:45:30.939
is created of how we check in, how we start,

01:45:31.199 --> 01:45:34.460
how we share. And so when they come in person

01:45:34.460 --> 01:45:36.720
and they're in the ceremony room where the ketamine

01:45:36.720 --> 01:45:38.279
is happening, they're having the journey with

01:45:38.279 --> 01:45:40.739
their eight folks in their group. So there's

01:45:40.739 --> 01:45:44.600
eight of them plus the team. and so there it's

01:45:44.600 --> 01:45:47.100
it's very ritual and this has been very well

01:45:47.100 --> 01:45:49.500
taught to us by our elders and our indigenous

01:45:49.500 --> 01:45:53.300
elders that have helped us co -create the ritual

01:45:53.300 --> 01:45:55.399
and the ceremony of the program especially elder

01:45:55.399 --> 01:45:59.920
geraldine manson and so they come into this space

01:45:59.920 --> 01:46:04.020
where they feel held they feel safe and the team

01:46:04.020 --> 01:46:08.890
is there no one is left Phil curates these absolutely

01:46:08.890 --> 01:46:12.710
brilliant playlists that follow the arc of the

01:46:12.710 --> 01:46:15.329
journey. And people are, you know, comfortably

01:46:15.329 --> 01:46:18.810
on their mats. We have weighted blankets. We

01:46:18.810 --> 01:46:22.050
have eye coverings, which follows our new name

01:46:22.050 --> 01:46:24.970
as teachings to be downward and inward, like

01:46:24.970 --> 01:46:29.289
to go inward. Music is on headphones so participants

01:46:29.289 --> 01:46:32.529
can control the intensity of the music. The music

01:46:32.529 --> 01:46:35.640
is also playing in the room. and so and then

01:46:35.640 --> 01:46:37.840
as a medicine comes on like everybody is going

01:46:37.840 --> 01:46:40.000
into the medicine at the same time there's this

01:46:40.000 --> 01:46:42.920
arc of the journey that they follow and the team

01:46:42.920 --> 01:46:45.920
is there to support them in whatever is needed

01:46:45.920 --> 01:46:49.520
um phil also mentioned we have somatic energy

01:46:49.520 --> 01:46:52.119
workers so we have eden trained energy workers

01:46:52.119 --> 01:46:54.619
that are in the room to help people move things

01:46:54.619 --> 01:46:57.399
through plus of all of our facilitators are incredibly

01:46:57.399 --> 01:47:00.640
skilled so no one's left alone and then after

01:47:00.640 --> 01:47:04.300
as everybody emerges and is out then there's

01:47:04.300 --> 01:47:06.460
an opportunity for the integration to start.

01:47:07.300 --> 01:47:10.659
So now there's some sharing. And then immediately

01:47:10.659 --> 01:47:13.779
in the days following, there's also numerous

01:47:13.779 --> 01:47:16.340
other opportunities to come back together as

01:47:16.340 --> 01:47:18.779
a group and share and start the integration.

01:47:19.220 --> 01:47:25.199
So this IV ketamine model, any model of psychedelics

01:47:25.199 --> 01:47:29.439
without ceremony, without ritual, without predictability,

01:47:29.460 --> 01:47:32.159
and without a strong therapeutic wraparound,

01:47:33.319 --> 01:47:36.340
is is is a recipe especially in the u .s for

01:47:36.340 --> 01:47:39.399
malpractice and for you know class action lawsuits

01:47:39.399 --> 01:47:42.220
which we are seeing now against some of these

01:47:42.220 --> 01:47:46.979
companies um it's just it it again to pull out

01:47:46.979 --> 01:47:49.180
the shareholder value and you would not see that

01:47:49.180 --> 01:47:52.739
happen so and that's why our numbers are so great

01:47:52.739 --> 01:47:55.039
like at 12 weeks our numbers right now for uh

01:47:55.039 --> 01:47:56.880
for people that come into our program who have

01:47:56.880 --> 01:48:00.199
ptsd at 12 weeks 92 percent no longer qualify

01:48:00.199 --> 01:48:05.779
for that diagnosis But that is not IV therapy.

01:48:06.079 --> 01:48:10.760
That is a solid wraparound program. We are co

01:48:10.760 --> 01:48:14.840
-creating the same healing container we would

01:48:14.840 --> 01:48:20.960
want if we were in that situation. And it's actually

01:48:20.960 --> 01:48:23.180
probably cheaper than what a lot of the programs

01:48:23.180 --> 01:48:25.600
are in the US. We had somebody come into our

01:48:25.600 --> 01:48:29.789
program that had done 30 IV sessions. in California

01:48:29.789 --> 01:48:31.689
and they came into our program. They said after

01:48:31.689 --> 01:48:34.270
the first ketamine journey with us in this ceremony,

01:48:34.329 --> 01:48:37.750
they had gotten more in our program right there

01:48:37.750 --> 01:48:40.130
than they had gotten in those 30 IV ketamines.

01:48:40.189 --> 01:48:43.510
So your friend is absolutely right. Like you

01:48:43.510 --> 01:48:47.189
should not be working. with groups that don't

01:48:47.189 --> 01:48:51.670
do solid therapy and help you, one, be safe during

01:48:51.670 --> 01:48:54.850
the journey, not left alone, but then also have

01:48:54.850 --> 01:48:57.569
solid preparation ahead of time and solid integration

01:48:57.569 --> 01:49:00.649
after time. It's a non -negotiable. It's a non

01:49:00.649 --> 01:49:03.170
-negotiable. It is just absolutely malpractice

01:49:03.170 --> 01:49:07.420
to be doing it any other way. What about the

01:49:07.420 --> 01:49:10.859
MDMA -led psychotherapy? I had Dr. Ben Sesser

01:49:10.859 --> 01:49:12.739
on a couple of times from Bristol, who's one

01:49:12.739 --> 01:49:15.319
of the people blazing the trail there. And the

01:49:15.319 --> 01:49:18.600
efficacy, again, with PTSD after just three treatments

01:49:18.600 --> 01:49:21.960
is phenomenal. But as I alluded to earlier with

01:49:21.960 --> 01:49:25.060
OxyContin, an FDA -approved drug, them trying

01:49:25.060 --> 01:49:27.439
to get MDMA, and recently they were refused by

01:49:27.439 --> 01:49:29.939
the FDA. So that, again, government corruption

01:49:29.939 --> 01:49:33.000
speaks volumes there. So talk to me about how

01:49:33.000 --> 01:49:35.000
you integrate that and the efficacy that you're

01:49:35.000 --> 01:49:38.859
seeing. Yeah, we have to, again, we have to apply

01:49:38.859 --> 01:49:41.659
right now on a case -by -case basis for people

01:49:41.659 --> 01:49:43.720
to go through our program with MDMA. And it's

01:49:43.720 --> 01:49:46.439
been phenomenal. It's been phenomenal. What we

01:49:46.439 --> 01:49:50.420
really do well is really help patients go down

01:49:50.420 --> 01:49:53.239
the line that works best for them, whether it's

01:49:53.239 --> 01:49:57.819
ketamine, psilocybin, or MDMA. And another decision

01:49:57.819 --> 01:50:00.579
we made in our program a while ago is that all

01:50:00.579 --> 01:50:03.020
of our therapists have to be five -star. And

01:50:03.020 --> 01:50:06.500
so we have a five -star team. Our patients that

01:50:06.500 --> 01:50:08.039
go through the program, it doesn't matter what

01:50:08.039 --> 01:50:09.619
medicine they're working with, they are getting

01:50:09.619 --> 01:50:12.520
a solid therapeutic team that is going to work

01:50:12.520 --> 01:50:15.340
with them to get through whatever it is. MDMA

01:50:15.340 --> 01:50:17.340
has been incredibly successful in our program.

01:50:17.420 --> 01:50:20.960
We've had absolutely great successes. We hope

01:50:20.960 --> 01:50:23.359
to incorporate it even more in the future, but

01:50:23.359 --> 01:50:26.140
we have to apply for every person. Like I said,

01:50:26.159 --> 01:50:29.100
it takes a lot of work. I don't know if you want

01:50:29.100 --> 01:50:31.380
to say more about that, Phil, but we have a great

01:50:31.380 --> 01:50:37.550
team. MDMA is fantastic. The interesting thing

01:50:37.550 --> 01:50:44.550
is the MAPS MDMA studies, their success rate

01:50:44.550 --> 01:50:47.470
at the high level is 67%, which is phenomenal,

01:50:47.829 --> 01:50:50.369
which is excellent. But what we're even seeing

01:50:50.369 --> 01:50:52.430
in our program with the ketamine is we're getting

01:50:52.430 --> 01:50:57.369
92. So I think outside of the MAPS protocol,

01:50:57.670 --> 01:51:00.510
which hasn't really innovated, I think we're

01:51:00.510 --> 01:51:02.390
seeing higher numbers in our program because

01:51:02.390 --> 01:51:05.380
we've been able to innovate. And not stay in

01:51:05.380 --> 01:51:08.319
a protocolized structure that they have to do

01:51:08.319 --> 01:51:10.819
in the clinical trials. So I think what we're

01:51:10.819 --> 01:51:14.159
going to see over time is when these medicines

01:51:14.159 --> 01:51:17.420
are fully available, is the best clinics are

01:51:17.420 --> 01:51:22.579
going to get even better outcomes. Yeah, I was

01:51:22.579 --> 01:51:26.000
going to mention that. We primarily work with

01:51:26.000 --> 01:51:29.880
ketamine because it's legal. And it's a lot easier

01:51:29.880 --> 01:51:33.239
access for participants to come through and access

01:51:33.239 --> 01:51:39.159
it. MDMA works great for PTSD, and we see physical

01:51:39.159 --> 01:51:42.319
pain reduction, significant physical pain reduction

01:51:42.319 --> 01:51:45.899
for different folks. But it's hard to argue with

01:51:45.899 --> 01:51:48.140
the outcomes that we're seeing with ketamine

01:51:48.140 --> 01:51:52.020
within our resilience program, the 92 % that

01:51:52.020 --> 01:51:55.800
Pam talked about. And ketamine is also a much

01:51:55.800 --> 01:52:01.039
shorter duration than MDMA, which leads to a

01:52:01.039 --> 01:52:05.390
much lower cost for participants. So a typical

01:52:05.390 --> 01:52:08.930
MDMA session is upwards of 10 hours, whereas

01:52:08.930 --> 01:52:12.890
our ketamine -assisted therapy sessions are six

01:52:12.890 --> 01:52:16.329
hours, five or six hours in duration. So you're

01:52:16.329 --> 01:52:19.890
looking at upwards of half the cost for a ketamine

01:52:19.890 --> 01:52:25.750
session with that 92 % reduction in PTSD. So

01:52:25.750 --> 01:52:31.970
easier access, lower cost. significant reductions.

01:52:32.069 --> 01:52:35.569
And as long as that's the case with ketamine,

01:52:35.649 --> 01:52:40.250
we will continue to use it until MDMA and psilocybin

01:52:40.250 --> 01:52:43.390
come on board and they're fully legal and whatnot.

01:52:45.050 --> 01:52:47.289
I want to hit one more area, then we'll go to

01:52:47.289 --> 01:52:49.109
some closing questions so I can be mindful of

01:52:49.109 --> 01:52:51.149
your time. At the beginning, you'd mentioned

01:52:51.149 --> 01:52:54.149
a study specific to firefighters that you've

01:52:54.149 --> 01:52:57.909
been seeing. So talk to me about that. Yeah,

01:52:57.930 --> 01:53:00.710
we had a bit of funding that came through that

01:53:00.710 --> 01:53:04.090
we were able to run through an open label firefighter

01:53:04.090 --> 01:53:06.609
cohort that came through Roots to Thrive. So,

01:53:06.609 --> 01:53:11.489
yeah, so we knew firefighters, many firefighters

01:53:11.489 --> 01:53:13.510
had gone through our program. In fact, we've

01:53:13.510 --> 01:53:16.770
even had a firefighter facilitator train with

01:53:16.770 --> 01:53:19.149
us. And I think we have another one coming in

01:53:19.149 --> 01:53:22.579
the near future. Possibly in the near future.

01:53:22.760 --> 01:53:25.159
But so they ran through our program and we just

01:53:25.159 --> 01:53:27.840
followed the normal. What we follow is depression,

01:53:28.020 --> 01:53:32.520
anxiety and PTSD. And they did phenomenally exactly

01:53:32.520 --> 01:53:36.600
what we expected. They ran through as a cohort.

01:53:37.100 --> 01:53:40.020
Quite often other first responders are sprinkled

01:53:40.020 --> 01:53:41.760
through other groups where they're mixed with

01:53:41.760 --> 01:53:45.739
different professions. And it was really interesting,

01:53:45.840 --> 01:53:48.399
actually. When we looked at the data, one of

01:53:48.399 --> 01:53:51.279
the firefighters, his data was exactly the same

01:53:51.279 --> 01:53:54.460
from beginning to end. So after we had to publish

01:53:54.460 --> 01:53:56.979
that as is, we couldn't. But I phoned him up

01:53:56.979 --> 01:53:59.600
and I said, what happened? You're doing so great.

01:53:59.720 --> 01:54:02.060
I don't understand. He goes, well, the week you

01:54:02.060 --> 01:54:05.699
sent us the measures, we had a firefighter suicide.

01:54:06.619 --> 01:54:09.680
So that was a shitty week for me, which really

01:54:09.680 --> 01:54:13.100
just brought it home. how much we need this.

01:54:13.279 --> 01:54:16.079
But even with his numbers not being as great

01:54:16.079 --> 01:54:18.039
because that's what he was dealing with that

01:54:18.039 --> 01:54:21.359
week when he filled in all the validated assessments,

01:54:21.739 --> 01:54:27.720
we still had remarkable outcomes. So what we

01:54:27.720 --> 01:54:30.340
also did is we published also their stories,

01:54:30.500 --> 01:54:32.399
the qualitative, like what was it like? What

01:54:32.399 --> 01:54:34.600
did they like? What other things did they notice

01:54:34.600 --> 01:54:37.260
that weren't specifically measured? So sleep

01:54:37.260 --> 01:54:40.579
was a huge improvement there. The camaraderie

01:54:40.579 --> 01:54:43.659
was a huge, they really enjoyed that. And what

01:54:43.659 --> 01:54:46.260
we're actually doing now to move the bar forward,

01:54:46.300 --> 01:54:48.479
we've got two projects going forward. One is

01:54:48.479 --> 01:54:50.859
we're actually going, because firefighters...

01:54:51.130 --> 01:54:53.489
are having such a hard time getting access to

01:54:53.489 --> 01:54:55.869
these therapies. Like when they finally, by the

01:54:55.869 --> 01:54:57.909
time firefighters finally raise their hand and

01:54:57.909 --> 01:55:00.390
say, I need help, they've needed help for a long

01:55:00.390 --> 01:55:04.189
time. Most people don't put up their hand right

01:55:04.189 --> 01:55:06.609
away. And when they do put up their hand and

01:55:06.609 --> 01:55:08.710
then they try to get insurance to cover it, like

01:55:08.710 --> 01:55:12.029
workers' compensation, quite often they get sanctuary

01:55:12.029 --> 01:55:15.609
trauma. This is a group that's supposed to help

01:55:15.609 --> 01:55:18.939
them and they don't. They put them through all

01:55:18.939 --> 01:55:21.579
this other stuff. In British Columbia, it can

01:55:21.579 --> 01:55:24.260
take up to 18 months for them to even get an

01:55:24.260 --> 01:55:28.779
assessment. I know, exactly. So we're actually

01:55:28.779 --> 01:55:33.199
doing, we've got a study that's in ethics right

01:55:33.199 --> 01:55:35.399
now that when we want to get our ethics approval,

01:55:35.539 --> 01:55:37.739
then we're going to be interviewing a ton of

01:55:37.739 --> 01:55:40.340
firefighters. And we're going to publish on that.

01:55:40.539 --> 01:55:42.600
And we're going to publish on it on purpose to

01:55:42.600 --> 01:55:45.109
move the bar. to say to workers' compensation,

01:55:45.449 --> 01:55:48.449
you're not doing the job you're paid to do. And

01:55:48.449 --> 01:55:50.630
that data will be able to be used. In fact, the

01:55:50.630 --> 01:55:52.409
International Association of Firefighters has

01:55:52.409 --> 01:55:54.430
been seeing all the studies we've been publishing

01:55:54.430 --> 01:55:56.750
and going, thank you. This is helping. We can

01:55:56.750 --> 01:56:01.789
use your data to advocate. Well, really, to push

01:56:01.789 --> 01:56:03.630
the organizations that are supposed to be doing

01:56:03.630 --> 01:56:07.310
their job, to push them to do their job. So we're

01:56:07.310 --> 01:56:12.510
going to do that. They're better. And then for

01:56:12.510 --> 01:56:15.170
anyone that wants to see some of that, the documentary

01:56:15.170 --> 01:56:19.409
Quiet the Sirens followed a number of those firefighters

01:56:19.409 --> 01:56:21.829
through the Roots to Thrive program. So you get

01:56:21.829 --> 01:56:23.850
to hear it in their own words, what it was like

01:56:23.850 --> 01:56:28.409
and what it was done. The team there, Mike Bernard,

01:56:28.609 --> 01:56:32.409
I think, and Jesse Fraser, they did a phenomenal

01:56:32.409 --> 01:56:35.109
job. They did a phenomenal job and were absolute

01:56:35.109 --> 01:56:40.369
great storytellers. We're going to keep doing

01:56:40.369 --> 01:56:42.789
that research to move the bar until firefighters

01:56:42.789 --> 01:56:47.529
get the therapy they deserve. And in that research

01:56:47.529 --> 01:56:49.909
article, Pam, there was also a six -month follow

01:56:49.909 --> 01:56:53.609
-up with the participants in the cohort. Is that

01:56:53.609 --> 01:56:56.170
right? Yep. And the results are durable. That's

01:56:56.170 --> 01:56:58.789
what people ask. Are they durable? But it's kind

01:56:58.789 --> 01:57:01.270
of a funny question to ask because if you're

01:57:01.270 --> 01:57:03.689
still working, you're still experiencing trauma.

01:57:05.920 --> 01:57:08.899
You know, what we should be saying is, well,

01:57:10.880 --> 01:57:13.500
actually, just change it a bit. We have an emergency

01:57:13.500 --> 01:57:15.579
nurse that came through our program who couldn't

01:57:15.579 --> 01:57:17.380
work. And then she came through our program and

01:57:17.380 --> 01:57:19.340
went back to work. And then she was funded as

01:57:19.340 --> 01:57:21.899
needed to go through the program, which from

01:57:21.899 --> 01:57:27.140
that time on, never lost a day of work. And she

01:57:27.140 --> 01:57:31.079
knew herself after so much time, she started

01:57:31.079 --> 01:57:34.220
getting nightmares. said hey i need another session

01:57:34.220 --> 01:57:37.380
kept her at work kept her healthy so yeah we

01:57:37.380 --> 01:57:39.399
so that is another thing that our program does

01:57:39.399 --> 01:57:41.399
is we try to follow all our participants out

01:57:41.399 --> 01:57:44.479
um four years so we're at four years right now

01:57:44.479 --> 01:57:47.880
trying to show show the people that make these

01:57:47.880 --> 01:57:51.159
decisions that the that these results are real

01:57:51.159 --> 01:57:56.640
they're not just transient you mentioned quiet

01:57:56.640 --> 01:58:00.000
the sirens where can people watch that You can

01:58:00.000 --> 01:58:02.420
just Google it, Quiet the Sirens. It's a TELUS

01:58:02.420 --> 01:58:05.340
documentary in Canada. It's free. Anybody can

01:58:05.340 --> 01:58:08.739
watch it. If you Google it, you'll find it. The

01:58:08.739 --> 01:58:12.159
link is online. Yeah, the easiest way to find

01:58:12.159 --> 01:58:14.899
it would be to Google TELUS Quiet the Sirens.

01:58:15.420 --> 01:58:20.680
And I believe the domain is on telusoriginals

01:58:20.680 --> 01:58:24.539
.com. And then once you get there, you just want

01:58:24.539 --> 01:58:28.789
to look for Quiet the Sirens. Beautiful. What

01:58:28.789 --> 01:58:31.189
about Roots to Thrive? Where can people find

01:58:31.189 --> 01:58:38.109
that online? www .rootstothrive .com or just

01:58:38.109 --> 01:58:43.069
search it. That's the easiest spot to go. You

01:58:43.069 --> 01:58:45.329
mentioned scholarships. If people listening maybe

01:58:45.329 --> 01:58:47.289
don't have the funds because, oh, I don't know,

01:58:47.350 --> 01:58:48.729
they're a firefighter and they get paid like

01:58:48.729 --> 01:58:53.369
shit, how can they apply for that? Yeah, we have

01:58:53.369 --> 01:58:57.729
an application process. We have a participant

01:58:57.729 --> 01:59:02.069
navigator program coordinator who they inquire

01:59:02.069 --> 01:59:05.409
on our website and then get connected with our

01:59:05.409 --> 01:59:09.130
participant navigator. And from there, they would

01:59:09.130 --> 01:59:12.630
just request this scholarship application and

01:59:12.630 --> 01:59:15.789
fill it out. And then we have a committee that

01:59:15.789 --> 01:59:19.250
reviews the applications. And depending cohort

01:59:19.250 --> 01:59:21.770
to cohort, we have different amounts of funding

01:59:21.770 --> 01:59:25.960
that we're able to allocate. And we review the

01:59:25.960 --> 01:59:31.020
applications and reach out to folks who are eligible

01:59:31.020 --> 01:59:35.119
for it and offer them essentially a dollar, a

01:59:35.119 --> 01:59:37.840
specified dollar amount. And the application

01:59:37.840 --> 01:59:41.140
is very easy. I think it's two pages and just

01:59:41.140 --> 01:59:45.060
ask basic questions and to provide basic information.

01:59:45.060 --> 01:59:47.859
We don't need tax returns or anything like that.

01:59:47.939 --> 01:59:52.989
We keep it simple. And as a nonprofit, what happens

01:59:52.989 --> 01:59:55.890
is every donation that comes into Roots to Thrive

01:59:55.890 --> 01:59:58.210
goes into that scholarship bucket. So we have

01:59:58.210 --> 02:00:00.390
that. We have had some very kind philanthropists

02:00:00.390 --> 02:00:02.630
that have come through from time to time. And

02:00:02.630 --> 02:00:05.470
we have a long wait list of people waiting for

02:00:05.470 --> 02:00:08.449
scholarships. And so, like I said, we work really

02:00:08.449 --> 02:00:11.489
hard to get as many people through that as possible.

02:00:11.550 --> 02:00:15.850
So every dollar helps move that faster. By far

02:00:15.850 --> 02:00:18.149
the biggest barrier for folks to participate

02:00:18.149 --> 02:00:23.630
is funding. And each cohort, we start with about,

02:00:23.689 --> 02:00:26.569
when we start onboarding participants, we start

02:00:26.569 --> 02:00:29.529
with about 150 to 200 people that have said,

02:00:29.569 --> 02:00:33.310
I want to do this. But it gets whittled down

02:00:33.310 --> 02:00:38.149
to 24 to 32 folks who can actually afford it.

02:00:38.489 --> 02:00:43.130
And so I think 99 % of the barrier is financial.

02:00:43.770 --> 02:00:47.050
for folks the other one percent is medical or

02:00:47.050 --> 02:00:51.310
timing or they're just not able to do it yeah

02:00:51.310 --> 02:00:53.710
which circles back to either you know national

02:00:53.710 --> 02:00:56.949
health care coverage or a fire department realizing

02:00:56.949 --> 02:00:59.569
that it's a proactive investment in their people

02:00:59.569 --> 02:01:03.989
and helping them I want to put a number on that

02:01:03.989 --> 02:01:06.569
because the program, it costs 6 ,000 Canadian,

02:01:06.569 --> 02:01:09.529
which is about 4 ,000 American. The average cost

02:01:09.529 --> 02:01:12.130
of a firefighter off work to a department is

02:01:12.130 --> 02:01:16.529
80 ,000 to a quarter million, depending. It's

02:01:16.529 --> 02:01:19.869
a no -brainer. Any program like that, the return

02:01:19.869 --> 02:01:26.680
is just crazy. Absolutely. Well, I want to thank

02:01:26.680 --> 02:01:28.500
you both. It's been such an amazing conversation.

02:01:28.560 --> 02:01:30.659
Again, I mean, I've had so many people on here

02:01:30.659 --> 02:01:34.199
that have got different dynamics when it comes

02:01:34.199 --> 02:01:37.239
to whether it's ketamine, MDMA, you know, Ibogaine,

02:01:37.340 --> 02:01:39.479
psilocybin, et cetera. But, you know, there's

02:01:39.479 --> 02:01:41.800
these reoccurring themes of what we're supposed

02:01:41.800 --> 02:01:44.399
to see as far as, you know, that integration,

02:01:44.939 --> 02:01:49.079
the kind of journey, the guided journey element

02:01:49.079 --> 02:01:51.520
to it. And, you know, here we are presented with

02:01:51.520 --> 02:01:53.699
yet another incredible solution, especially for

02:01:53.699 --> 02:01:56.649
people up in Canada. I want to thank you both

02:01:56.649 --> 02:01:59.189
for being so generous with your time and coming

02:01:59.189 --> 02:02:01.689
on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Yeah,

02:02:01.729 --> 02:02:03.890
James, thank you. And thanks for the continued

02:02:03.890 --> 02:02:06.229
work that you're doing. It's important. Been

02:02:06.229 --> 02:02:07.869
fun to spend time with you, James. Thanks.