Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name's James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
actor, former LAFD firefighter, and musician,
Morgan England. Now, in this conversation, we
discuss a host of topics, from growing up in
a Hollywood family, his initial rejection of
the acting world, finding himself in a soap opera,
seeking purpose in the fire service, how toxic
environments affected his mental health, refinding
joy in performance, and so much more. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment. Go
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Morgan
England. Enjoy. Well, Morgan, I want to start
by saying thank you so much for taking the time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Yeah, I'm really glad to be here. I've been waiting
for a couple of months since we spoke. Yeah,
absolutely. It's a good thing. I'm so jammed
up on interviews at the moment. Long, long time
ago, someone said to me, aren't you afraid you're
going to run out of people to interview? And
I said, it's the opposite. There aren't enough
days in the week to get all these people on the
show. So I appreciate your patience. So very
first question, where on planet Earth are we
finding you this morning? I am outside of Los
Angeles, just north in Thousand Oaks. It's another
beautiful day here in Southern California. Beautiful.
I worked for Anaheim Fire for a few years, so
I lived in Huntington Beach and Burbank. And
yeah, I mean, any time it wasn't a beautiful
day in California was a strange day. Yeah, that's
true. We've had a little rain recently, which
has just been amazing. The hills are green. It's
just beautiful right now. Flowers are budding,
just starting to bud. Really nice. Good news
for the fire service. Yeah, for next season,
for sure. Plenty of stuff. And I grew up in the
Pacific Palisades, and I just drove through there
for the first time a couple weeks ago. It's amazing
how the change just... I know when we brought
up brush and vegetation, that's what I thought
of. The Palisades fire, all my friends who fought
it, and all my friends who lost homes, and everything,
literally everything. Anyway. No, let's talk
about that. Let's just go immediately down a
rabbit hole then. So talk to me about the fire,
the impact of the fire, and then any kind of
lessons learned or causations that maybe could
have prevented such a tragedy. I'll just give
you the microphone for that. Well, I had a Christmas
party. all my friends at this place called the
Pearl Dragon, which is right in the center of
the Palisades, about a week before Christmas.
And within two or three weeks, more than half
the people there had lost not just their homes,
but everything. The wind was, it's not something
you can really fight, you know. I think, from
what I understand, there was a small burn and...
they were actually told to leave and not continue
finish putting it out and that reignited and
that's what caused the uh flame so causation
i mean put the damn thing out you know don't
leave before you have i mean that's just down
to mineral earth you don't do that so um whoever
told them to stop you know i mean it's pretty
cut and dried seems like leave a fire burning
and you got 80 mile an hour winds bad things
are going to happen absolutely well everyone
that lost their home like what are what are the
things that are in place to try and rebuild their
lives again you know i don't i don't really know
i know that some of my friends are um they're
they've found a place to stay they're it's everyone's
on hold really because they're still not able
to build or They really don't know, from what
I understand, what to do next. I think a lot
of people don't want to sell their property to
a developer and everything, but as time goes
by, their options are probably getting really
limited. I'm trying to stay away from any blame
or anything, but each question you're asking,
it all comes back to the state and politics.
It's so sickening. That, yeah, I just try to
help people where I can. And I just kind of put
it out of my mind because nothing I can really
do. So be there, you know, help a few people
during the day. But other than that, I don't
know what they're doing. Surviving. Well, it's
interesting. I've spoken to so many people, and
when I worked at Anaheim, it was probably the
most wildland training I had, but I was in a
truck company, so we would normally stay in the
city, and the guys that were ex -CDF were usually
the ones that wanted to be on the strike teams.
So not super well -versed when it comes to that
part of the fire service, but listening to so
many people, smokejumpers and hotshots and all
these people that are leaders in their field,
and you hear the same kind of thing. It's not...
you know just keep dropping firefighters in in
the middle of a fire and try and put it out when
it started it's the prescribed burns it's you
know the goats that can knock down the um you
know the fuel there's the um you know checkering
is one of my friends said well you don't even
have to you know get rid of the whole thing but
you just create those fire breaks prematurely
um you know aggressive um uh laws when it comes
to if you are going to build in that kind of
area you know making sure that you've pushed
the brush way back from your home and again that
you have places to shelter in place and you know
the the reliance on shelters themselves you know
the emergency shelters being kind of junk science
really so you know these are all the gurus in
their space and then also listening to the fact
that yes the global warming thing appears to
be real if you ask any wildland firefighter um
None of these things are really run with. And
then the prescribed burns, you have the people
in the local towns that oppose it, and they don't
want them to, and then the town burns down. So
coming from a complete white belt when it comes
to the wildland fire service, it doesn't seem
like they're listening to the men and women who
are actually on the ground risking their lives.
The more that I hear, and the more just from
my own experience, it's really... you're a warm
body to fill a seat. And at the end of the day,
that's how you're seen from the department's
perspective and as you go up the chain. So, no,
none of this stuff is getting dealt with. There's
no common sense. And I think now, today, it's
just everything is so political that really nothing's
going to get done. And there are people actively...
against making the changes that need to be made.
And California is a perfect, perfect example,
like the, between the vegetation and the wind
and not putting out the fire and having empty
reservoirs, you know, there, it was just the
perfect storm. Um, so, but, and I too was, I
was always on the truck company, very rarely
on the engine. So, you know, I'd be in town when
I was a rookie and stuff, we were fighting a
lot of, we were going out, but, Most of my career
was on the truck tillering because that was where
the paramedic, it's only a spot for the paramedic.
So, and I love that job, that position. But,
you know, wildland's great. It's fun. We're specialized
on structure fires and medical trauma rescue
and stuff like that. So, you know, we don't know
what the hell we're doing. i mean you know the
people that like county la county and stuff they
they're in there all the time doing wildland
stuff so and there's a there's a lot of guys
that have the experience from that but that's
our specialty at la city was structure fire so
yeah that's how i felt like you know one day
a progressive hose load hose training and you
know cut in line for an hour i didn't feel like
i was quite prepared for you know the real big
boys and girls of that area yeah let's start
at the very beginning of your timeline and then
we'll get to the fire service um tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic what your parents did how
many siblings oh man um okay that's funny i don't
ever usually talk about this but um i my mother
and father had three boys um and then there was
a six -year gap and each boy was two years apart
and then me and then my younger sister my mother
was an actress my father was his mother was his
mother was mabel albertson and she played darren's
mother on this bewitched she had a long career
in acting and then her brother was jack albertson
so my great uncle was um grandpa joe in charlie
and the chocolate factory and incredible career
that he had, Charlie and the, not Charlie, Chico
and the Man. But my father, I know he did some
directing and he produced and he wrote, but I
don't know really what he ever did. I could never
pin that down. When I turned about seven, 1970,
my mom got her first Mary Tyler Moore show. Then
she got uh the last picture show she won an oscar
for that and then young frankenstein um so this
is really interesting because i'm just diving
into this i'm starting to write a book and this
whole family dynamic and it's so weird because
there are huge chunks that are missing like from
four to six it's just a blackout and what i realized
was when i turned four i'll never forget this
My mom was driving me to preschool or something
and she turned to me and she said, you know,
I'm leaving and I'm taking your younger sister
with me. And I remember screaming and crying
and she dropped me off at preschool. And I don't
know where she went, but I think she was gone
most of that summer. And that's when her career
started to take off. Also, my mother and father
were. I don't ever remember them really being
together. He would come in, and he scared the
crap out of me. This guy was so articulate, so
charming, incredibly well -read. And he could
just, two words, and he could just cut you right
to the core and just drop you to your knees.
And the older boys were getting in trouble, and
he had this whistle. I heard that whistle, and
it just chilled me to the bone. But I think when
my mom left and her career started rolling, she
was, I think, running to save her own life and
sanity. And she had to make a choice. But I really
grew up pretty quick in terms of being able to
take care of myself. This gave me the tools for
future life. When I was 10, I started hitchhiking
everywhere with a skateboard and my thumb. And
I got all over Los Angeles. I got to school and
all that stuff. So, yeah, it was a very weird...
I found out later that this was not a normal
life. style and family and all that kind of stuff.
So there's a lot of drama. My, the middle brother
got into drugs at 12. He got over the counter
sleeping pills in Italy and not sent him on a
thing. And he ended up overdosing at 29. And
yeah, I mean, you can, we can get a little more
specific, but it was, it was a pretty chaotic
childhood, but at the same time, I'm, You know,
I really I would never put things in these terms,
but it really was abandoned. I mean, my mom just
left and she just left me there. And this is
in the 60s and 70s where you didn't really raise
kids. You just sort of had them and see what
happens. But at the end of her life, she I think
that decision that she made to to take my sister.
and to leave me i think that she she made that
decision so many more times in my life and um
in terms of like personal betrayal was just unbelievable
and i found out what she had given to the other
kids throughout their lives and stuff and um
i i was stunned um at the amount of money that
she had that they had taken and that she'd put
in or however, what I'm not judging, but, um,
I never, I was never part of any of that. So
the end of her life, I was sitting there. Um,
they had moved my sister. She was took, took
my mom. And, um, anyway, they moved to San Diego
and I realized that my sister was completely
overwhelmed and my mom was on end stage. She
had a few months probably. And I was coming down
every chance I could. And I was sitting there
just smoothing her forehead. She was in bed and
she's looking at me really intensely. And she
goes, why are you here? And I knew what she meant.
She's like, out of all my kids and all the shit
to put you through, how is it that you're the
one sitting here with me right now and caring
for me? And I was able to say how. That I feel
very lucky that I'm not anyone else in our family
and everything that I went through made me who
I am today. And the career that she had, which
was unbelievable. I told her there's no way that
you could have done that and been at home raising
kids and was able to really just tell her I love
her to go in peace. And like, she's got nothing
to worry about my side. And so it was really
nice. kind of ending with her. There's obviously
a lot more, but I'm going to just pause for you.
Yeah, no, no. I mean, this, this is what's so
interesting and we're going to get to, you know,
your mental health journey in the fire service.
But again, as we sit here, I've done over 1200
interviews now and which does not make me an
expert in any way, shape or form, but I've heard
a lot of stories, you know, and then heard a
lot of science and that kind of thing from the
SMEs as well. But it was made aware of me by
Jake Clark. I always give him credit for that
from Save a Warrior. But the ACES, the Adverse
Childhood Experience score that they have in
psychology, on average, first responders and
military members are six out of 10. And then
incarcerated people are usually about six out
of 10 as well. And it makes perfect sense that
a lot of us want to feel validated. We want to
feel enough. We want to protect people from maybe
the hurt that we've had. We want to have a purpose.
We want to have an identity. But the other thing
that's become more prevalent, and I wrote about
this in my most recent book, was the impact of
generational trauma. And it sounds like possibly,
I'm just not trying to psychoanalyze your family,
but that maybe your mom was always chasing something
that would make her. feel enough you know through
through the uh performance side when actually
what was most important was was right in front
of her the whole time so with your parents i
mean did you spend time with grandparents did
you see any of the the kind of generational dominoes
as far as their upbringing no no um i would say
no but a really interesting thing my mother would
always say she played piano and she'd tell me
how she'd always try to her father was very distant
with her so getting approval for him was everything
to her and after he was dead i mean that was
just her whole thing and uh my sister sent me
this dna testing thing and so we did our dna
testing did all that and then a few weeks later
this woman contacts me she's like hey um she's
very mysterious and she's like you know is it
okay if i i'm like yeah man i have nothing to
hide i don't care what happened in the past it's
she's like okay so very slowly she gives me this
information bottom line is that my mother's father
was not her father it was some other dude that
lived in the same town And apparently my grandmother
was three months pregnant with my mother when
she married the guy that my mother always thought
was her father. So it's hard to believe, but
if that's the case, that family, well, I saw
who would be my great aunt and she would just
doppelganger for my mother. I thought it was
my mother. Whoa. Um, but apparently there was
heavy alcoholism early, a lot of early death
from alcoholism. Um, I don't know much more than
that, but, uh, but it makes sense. You know,
it's, she's had that drive to, to get recognition
from her father and turns out now it's kind of
understandable why, um, she was never able to
get it. So I don't know the exact circumstances,
but probably finding out that he's just married
somebody with somebody else's kid. Um, probably
somebody he knew they probably were in the same
circles. So just weird, but it is, it's crazy.
The generational stuff that goes back. We, we,
they're just like us, man. You know, they were
doing all this and it goes back and back and
back and thousands of years. Uh, it was mind
blowing. Well, I think this is what, excites
me about our generation generation x is one of
our feet was still in that blind rub some dirt
in it you know suck it up buttercup you know
that old mentality the victorian mentality that
arguably is what put a lot of people in the grave
you know by their own hand by alcohol whatever
the thing was and then the other side is obviously
we're seeing these young generations now that
And because of this genesis of conversation,
that's all they know is talking about mental
health and, you know, and the things that are
good for them and things that are bad for them,
which is an incredible thing. But we kind of
get to be the gatekeepers. You know, we get to
be the ones that see the dominoes that fell on
us. Maybe, you know, as depending on how old
our children are, maybe the domino fell on them
for a while. But then we get to kind of heal
what we experience as kids, but then try and
also then heal our children with what we've learned
and forgiveness and understanding. So I think
it's an exciting time, depending on how you look
at it, because we really are, in a way, the most
important storytellers, our generation, because
we grew up in that generation that was still
the old style. And yet our children are in the
new generation. But we can't actually make a
positive impact until we look in the mirror,
figure out what we're struggling with, have the
courage to deal with our struggles, forgive the
people that hurt us, et cetera, et cetera. And
then, you know, now those dominoes stop falling.
You know, if not our children, certainly our
grandchildren. Yeah. Well, I think, you know,
like with anything, I remember when my kids,
my first two were young, they started giving
out participation trophies. And to me, that was
the beginning. It went too far the other way,
you know, so you get a whole generation of kids
that don't know how to do anything. You know,
they just expect things to happen for them and
the helicopter parents and all this. So I think
we've got to take that new and then eventually
that will blend together because you have to
have those boundaries, you know. We talked about
compartmentalization in our industry. And you
have to have that. That is a tool. That's a skill
that you have to have. You cannot break down
in the middle of a call and not cease to function.
You have to do it. But on the other side, what
we're finding out now, what we're leaning into
is letting it flow through you instead of bottling
up and bottling up and piling up. I think we're
in a great place. It's an amazing time to be
alive. And what I see is that we kind of will
swing all the way this way from where we were
here. Like we're talking about suck it up buttercup
to let's feel and talk about our mental health
feelings and all that stuff. And there's, there's
a middle ground that especially first responders,
I think need to, you got to have that compartmentalization
and that toughness, but you also need to. let
it go let it um get rid of it it's like taking
a shit you know it's why don't we have to we
can't just hold it forever otherwise it just
becomes disease if not mental disease physical
disease so pretty it's and the science is all
there to show us that like what you're talking
about with the sleep deprivation i mean that's
just one slice of the pie and just by changing
that you might change the whole industry to where
and change the statistics that we're seeing of
the suicides and the mental health and addiction
and alcoholism and all that stuff. So we're in
a great place. And I think that swing back is
actually happening faster. Like we're getting
into the mental health and you see that as a
weakness to talk about that kind of stuff. And
there's, I don't know, call it danger, but to
go too far that way. And where ultimately it's
going to be is you got to be tough, but you got
to have a way to offload the trauma. And the
other thing, and honestly, for me, I love the
calls. I mean, yeah, of course, there are calls
that haunt me that I'll never leave me. It was
what I understand now is called moral injury,
department betrayal, leadership betrayal. That
so far outweighs anything I saw. I mean, I loved
the job. I wanted to do the job. I wanted to
go on those calls. And it gets gnarlier later
when you're going on a shooting at first. Yeah,
I want to go fix the guy with the gunshot wound.
But after seeing a couple, it's like, this is
real, man. Somebody just... got shot with a gun
and they're bleeding and dying and then you see
their family and the mother comes running in
and you know that's that's gnarly and you don't
you start to see the humanity kind of approach
it at first as a clinical you're doing your job
all the stuff that you've learned and want to
be there on the spot but after a while i remember
i talked to my mom when i was a new paramedic
and you know tell her about the things maybe
on the way home and stuff. And I remember a couple
years later, she said, you know, you never talk
about the stories. You never talk about your
job anymore. And I realized it was because it
really became real. Like, it's a human. These
are people dying. These are people losing limbs
and having their life changed forever. And, you
know, that's heavy. But it's tolerable. I mean,
there's a lot of good to be able to be the person
there in their hour of need. You know, that's
a huge gift to us to be there, to be able to
be there. Absolutely. I think going back to what
we were talking about before, as far as, you
know, the generational thing and, you know, our
ability to actually force change now. I was telling
you before we hit record. changed the way i'm
kind of addressing this whole subject now we
have talked for example about you know the carcinogens
in our gear and that's why we're all dying of
cancer and you know the mental health stuff you
know it's what we see and that's why we're all
you know we're all taking our own lives or you
know becoming alcoholics etc etc and if you look
at a lot of other professions that hold themselves
you know to a high level and that hold us to
that same level and i think the special operations
community is a good one to to use as that their
psychologists you know ultimately are trying
to get them to perform at a high level get them
in the flow state during a gunfight etc etc their
strength and conditioning coaches are trying
to get them to be able to you know rock two miles
with 100 pounds of gear and then you know, get
into a gunfight. They're nutritionists trying
to, you know, keep them hydrated at the highest
level and, you know, optimize performance. But
those same professionals in the fire service,
when they come in, they're like, man, you keep
dying. So many of you die. Let's try and get
you to die less. It's such a chasm between that
conversation and where we need to be. And the
irony is, if you actually talk about forging
performance, it pulls you from the darkest of
places. All right, you know. Morgan, I want you
to perform at the high level. We're going to
do some meditation. We're going to do some breath
work. We're going to do some counseling. We're
going to try and kind of offload some of your
trauma when you were younger so that when you
go and do a primary search in a four bedroom
home, you're able to paint that picture with
your mind as you're moving through with your
hands. And the other person's got the tick. So
now you go, oh, wow. Yeah, I want to be a better
firefighter. I want to be able to think clearly
at three in the morning when I'm doing that PD
cardiac arrest. And so if you're doing that,
well, those same tools are helping you process
all the bad shit. So that's pulling you away
from the darkness to the same with obesity and
cancer and strokes. If we have a fitness test
and we're going to try and get you to the highest
level where like my last apartment, 100 pounds
of gear, high rise strip, 30 floors up before
you get to the fire floor. That's a high level
of performance. So I need to be held at a high
standard. I need to train frequently. I need
to hydrate. I need to eat properly, et cetera,
et cetera. So again, going back to that exciting
conversation, if we can shift from the doom and
gloom that was the mental health conversation
10 years ago and now talk about performance,
A, it smashes a lot of the stigma as well. But
then it gives these guys pride into dealing with
their shit because now that's going to make you
a better firefighter, as you mentioned, when
people are having their worst day. Yeah, absolutely.
It's really great to just change the lens that
you're looking through to the doom and gloom
of mental illness or mental health to resilience
and being the best you can be. And this just
being a part of it, which it is. It's like eating,
breathing. Any other thing that we do for ourselves
is just cut out. And what I've... It's the way
I... I don't know. I'm trying to find a way to
articulate this, but because of the culture,
because of this sort of code of science, because
we can't really share or in the environment where
we can't, if something's hitting us sideways
or we're just really messed up, we can't look
weak, right? So we don't say anything. And I
don't know about your experience, but most of
the training. that I went through in the first
responder world, whether it was paramedic, fire,
whatever, was more like, they're always going
to point out where you fucked up. You know, they're
always going to point out the worst thing or
the things you did. And even if you didn't like,
oh, I would have done it differently. There's
never a, it's not like you're a team coming together.
It's like individuals performing individual jobs.
where everything that we do is team oriented.
We wash dishes together, we cook together, clean,
sleep, train, fight fires, go on calls together.
And yet we're operating as an island because
we can't really, we have to keep all this contained,
right? So we're not really, even the training
itself is not geared towards team dynamics. To
me, it's more like your enemies, right? Or it
gets to be where it's not just challenging you
to do your best. It's almost like it's an unhealthy
competition. Am I making any sense to you? I
don't know, maybe you didn't experience this
at all. Yeah, no, no. I mean, I've been for four
different departments. some pretty extremes when
it comes to the right way of doing it and the
wrong way of doing it. You touched on moral injury.
I think one of the things I realize on the fire
side and then certainly on the medic side, we
also cook in, well, if you do A, B, C, and D,
then you get the person out of the fire. Or you
do A, B, C, and D, and now they've gone from
V -fib down to sinus with a pulse. And what I
think we need to do, and let's just stay with
paramedic for a moment, that you and I are working
a megacode for our final test or checkoff, and
we do everything right, and the person still
dies. And they turn to you then and say, that
was phenomenal. You guys did every single thing.
You gave the right meds. You shocked at the right
jewels. You dealt with the different change of
rhythms. you know, this, this 95 % of them don't
live. So we're just simulating that. But I want
you to know that you gave that patient every
single chance, but we don't do that. You know,
every single time we do it right in ACLS, you
get a, you know, a pulse back and then you get
all these excited, bright eyed ENTs and medics
and they go in the real world. I had a career
where I had zero code saves in 14 years. What
does that do morally? You know, what am I doing
wrong? I must be, you know, a shitty medic, et
cetera, et cetera. And I hope that's not the
case. But sometimes you get the GI bleeds and
the quadriplegic that hasn't moved for 30 years.
You can't even compress his chest, you know,
and the, you know, the, the triple A's and I
mean all the things. And some of us just, you
do everything right and they still die. And I
think whether it's in the fire training, the
extrication, you know, the, the EMS side, not
all the time, but sometimes weave that in that,
you know, there's not that expectation that if
you do the right skills. the person comes to
the station the next week with a cake because
that's not the real world. And you're setting
us up for like emotional failure by doing that.
Yeah. You know, there's those ones where you
lose them and it just doesn't, it's just another
call. You know, you did everything. But then
there are those where, I don't know why, but
there are certain ones where you just give everything
you've got, you know. And you're like, fucking
live, motherfucker. You're doing everything.
And for some reason, I think about this lady.
I was a fairly new paramedic, but a few years
in, and she'd been shot like four times in the
abdomen. She's a mother by her ex -boyfriend,
and she's bleeding out. And I'm alone in the
back of the rig, and we've got like a 20 -minute
transport. and she's just fleeting out, man.
I've got both wide, you know, the big IVs in
her, 14 in both arms, just pumping nothing. I
put her in shock position, and I see I'm losing
her, and I just grab her feet. I slam them up
into the ceiling of the ambulance, and her face
starts to pink up, and she comes into color,
and I was able to talk to her for a sec before
we got to the hospital. And I just, I don't,
I 99 % sure she didn't make it, but maybe her
organs were able to, but man, that was one where
I just, it was so hard to lose it. Yeah. We had
a guy in a kennel at a resort. What brought his
dog in and just basically collapsed young guy,
like late twenties. And the, the, Code went perfectly.
Like probably the best code I've ever run in
the whole time in the fire service. But he had
a brain bleed. And this is the thing. It was
so sad. You know, the family were there. It was
one of those calls where after, you know, we
dropped, we take them to the ER and we called
it in the, you know, the trauma room there. And
I'm in the hallway doing my report. And I happen
to be sitting. I don't know why the EMS room
is right next to the grief counseling room. but
he has just told the family and I'm just hearing
the screams and, you know, they're coming in
and out and they were there, you know, watching
us run the code. And what was disgusting is the
people, this was at a theme park resort, the
people working this, you know, kennel area kept
on checking people in while we're working the
code in their foyer. So, you know, there's that
as well. I mean, disgusting, but. But yeah, so
you're trying to type those reports. But the
thing is, you did everything right. You gave
that person every single chance they could. And
that was their time for whatever reason. I mean,
especially with the brain bleed, you can't predict
that. And it's just heartbreaking. But you're
talking about moral injury, the screams of those
loved ones where you're seemingly the person
whose fault it was that didn't save it. save
them typing the report. I mean, it is. It's a
lot for people to carry. We're not conditioned
to be able to do this day in, day out, not to
mention sleep -deprived and overworked. Yeah,
if you haven't heard that scream before, you
can't imagine what it's like. I've heard it.
It's lost beyond anything you can imagine. So
on a brighter note, I think stuff is good. This
movement towards being healthy. You know, I've
been doing a lot of reading into... I don't want
to get religious. I'm not a religious person,
but... I've been understanding that balance and
alignment are... And what we're talking about
in this, what we're doing right now is really
being in alignment with ourselves. And we talked
about your physical health and the nutrition
and all the different parts of being strong and
being fit for duty. And now we're opening up
to this mental health idea. I see it in terms
of alignment and balance. My brother just called
me last night. He was like, I have AFib. And
we went down a rabbit hole with that. And I said,
I guess he's had a few bouts before. What should
I do and all this stuff? I said, I would try
to fix the cause. And if it's AFib, that's an
electrical cause. So you've got magnesium, potassium,
and those are the first two things I look at
and how that balances. You know, that's the polarity
for the heartbeat itself. And if you're deficient
in one or have too much of one, it can be cut
into balance. And I'm just starting to apply
that to every situation and what's out of balance
here. and what's not in alignment. And I'm finding
in just all, because it all comes down to frequency.
Been doing a lot of work with that too. That
was one of the things, the sound and psychedelics
that actually was the biggest, by far, one thing
that I did that was healing to me. And again,
the more I look into that, the more it's about
frequency and balance. Sorry if I took a little
detour there, but it's just seeing things in
a different way and not just like fire service
and just globally, you know, how does it all
fit and what's out of balance, out of alignment?
And you can see so clearly if you look at first
responders and the... not only the jobs that
they have the parameters that they work in and
the dynamics that they work in it's we've created
i think a system where it is out of balance and
we could bring it into balance by acknowledging
the mental health aspect acknowledging that that's
a huge part of doing this job and being strong
and clear mentally and emotionally is vital if
you don't if you don't want your people to be
miserable at work sick days killing themselves
in depression and all that stuff so i think it's
fixable because you know what they tell you you
just won the lottery you just got this job that
everybody wants right but the reality is very
different but it could be that way it could really
be that way it's a phenomenal job and phenomenal
people that go into it and just I think it just
a lot of times makes you become something that
you don't want to be, that you never intended
to be. And I think there are less people come
out unscathed than the people that come out crippled,
even though you can't see it. And that's an imbalance.
And I think it's a job that you should be able
to come out of with knowing that, like, you know,
let's take the whole career, not just as one
call, right? You did everything. Yeah, you made
some, might've made some mistakes, but over the
whole, you know, looking at that whole career
and leaving it going, I did, I did good work,
man. I made a difference. And you can walk away
with that. I think that's, that's huge. And it
can carry you into the second part of your life
rather than retirement and the sort of sunset.
Yeah, I agree completely. I think this is the
thing that I came away, really made me start
the podcast and then ultimately transition out
to try and fix from the outside. You know, if
you and I are sitting here now, let's say we're
in the same place face to face and the meteor
comes and slams into your garden and we're both
dead. OK, that was definitely supposed to be
the time that James and Morgan died. But if you
know, if you're there and you're dying of congestive
heart disease and I'm dying of cirrhosis of the
liver because of my alcoholism and your obesity.
That's a whole different conversation. If you
stick a gun in your mouth because of unadjusted
childhood trauma and organizational betrayal
and sleep deprivation and side effects of psych
meds, et cetera, et cetera, then that's preventable.
And I think this is what really gets me is there's
the all or nothing mentality, especially in America.
Someone has an idea and they go, oh, but they
tried it over there and it didn't work. Like
welfare, for example. Oh, people, they lie and
then they buy an Escalade. How many fucking people
have gone on welfare or government housing and
then ended up forging incredible careers for
themselves and getting their own home and having
a family? We don't talk about that. And it's
the same with this. So many of these deaths are
preventable in uniform and the people that we
serve, whether it's on the roads, whether it's
the chronic diseases, whether it's the mental
health side, whether it's the violence. I mean,
in our profession now, we're seeing more and
more murder suicides. You know what I mean? That's
not a fucking coincidence. This is a preventable
mental health thing again. So this is what's
so saddening on one side, but again, if you flip
it around, then there's an opportunity to fix
it. And for example, you want to revolutionize
the fire service, do a 24 -72, 42 -hour work
week, start at bloody 11 a .m. or 12 noon rather
than 7 in the morning, which is lunacy. And then
integrate 911 telehealth to take away the calls
that firefighters should never be going to in
the first place. Now you will have well -rested
people that you can put fitness standards in,
have zero barrier to entry for mental health
tools. So they're forging that resilience, you
know, that flow state suit. And then you've got
a bunch of people that are just so excited to
go to the station, which is, you know, what you
hear from these departments that have made the
switch. They're fully staffed. There's no. you
know, mandatory overtime anymore. You know, the
occasional overtime to cover, you know, a multitude
of sickness, for example, but that's about it.
And then now on the side, they've got a second
thing that they love doing. Maybe they do it
for free. Maybe they do it, you know, on the
side to make some money. And then just as you
said, they finish their 20, 25 year career, whatever
they end up deciding to do. And then they're
like, that was amazing. What's next? How can
I take what I've just done and apply it in the
next thing? But instead we get. worked into the
ground and everyone's like, oh, I wonder if you're
going to make it five years. Most don't. That's
not what should happen after 25 years of selfless
service. Yeah. I think what your schedule would
actually give you the time to create something
with purpose, like something that you do that
you dovetail into. And coming out of this because
this whole idea of retiring and then what? I
mean, then lose your purpose, your identity,
all this stuff. What do you think is going to
happen? So I think that's that's again, we need
purpose in life. We need to strive for something.
And for me, going to work as a firefighter, as
a paramedic. It was. It wasn't a purpose. It
was a thing. It was a job. It was something I
loved to do. But it wasn't a purpose. It's hard
to describe. Like right now, I'm trying to fix
a problem with the high rate of suicide in the
first responder world. And that's now become
a purpose for me. I don't know. Maybe it's different.
I wanted to talk about something else. Maybe
you can cut this part out. No, no, no, no. I
think, no, please. I think it's good. It's the
difference between a firefighter, a single function
firefighter and a paramedic, firefighter paramedic.
For me, I, I got into this. So I wanted to be
a paramedic. I didn't really care about fire.
Like I didn't even know what they do, like barbecue
all day. I had no idea, but it's two, what I
found is that you have two very separate ways
that they're looking at a call. And as a paramedic,
it's much more about compassion. It's much more
person, personal interaction. That's what we
want to do. We want to heal people, help people
live. And it seems like the fire, I, the people
that have gone through fire. They've been cadets
and they've been hot shots and then they become
firefighters. It doesn't seem like overall their
main goal is helping people. It seems like there's
a different, we're going into the calls with
different, like a cop too. If you're a cop and
a paramedic going into a call, you're going to
the same call, but you have completely different
jobs and you're viewing it completely different.
The fire service, just about anywhere, what is
it, 90%, 85%, 90 % of the calls are medical,
trauma, rescue, stuff like that. Very few of
the calls, or very low percentage are fire. And
yet, the fire department's all about fire. And
that mentality, to me, creates a rift between
the paramedics and the single function firefighters.
And it also, you know, having the main mission
statement or, you know, what we're doing, it
seems to me, given the actual reality of the
job, that it should be slanted towards people
and the paramedic side of that or the trauma
and medical. And, I mean, fire is just as important
for sure, but it's a high. high risk, high whatever
thing, low occurrence comparatively. But I feel
like just the way that we look at it as fire
department, but it's really medical and trauma
and fire. I guess what I'm trying to say, it's
the way that we're thinking, the way we're going
into a call. It really creates friction between
the paramedics and the firefighters because they're
not, they have different, they're going into
it a different way in their heads. Does that
make any sense to you or have you seen any? Yeah,
I think where it really, I see it the most, the
most acutely is, you know, when I entered the
fire service in 02. Fire and EMS were hand in
hand. I had to go to EMT school before I could
go to fire academy. So there was no question.
And to have people of that era or more recently
go, oh, I just want to do the fire, then go to
a different country or just go to FDNY or some
of these places that still just do fire. Because
as I've said many times, I love the fact that
we're a Swiss Army knife. That, you know, two
or four human beings show up on someone's, you
know, address and they mitigate their worst disaster,
whatever that looks like. The worst disaster
could be their elderly partner fell out of bed
or it could be that their house is on fire and
they're trapped on the third floor in a bedroom.
But it's the same human thing. And so, you know,
like I always say, OK, you know, let's say that
you subscribe to that for a moment. You're just
a firefighter and you're beating your chest and
you're growing your mustache and, you know. putting
your helmet in the oven to make yourself look
more badass. And you'd go in and you'd pull someone
out. It's a real thing. And you'd pull someone
out. And now they're steaming on the front garden.
And you don't do EMS. You just pulled a body
out of a fire. That was it. I can't think of
anything more useless than pulling someone out
of a fire, putting all that effort in, and not
having the advanced ALS skills to then save that
person's life. So that's the way I look at this.
Why would you not want to be really good at all
these things sequentially? I did a lot of special
ops classes, never joined a team because usually
historically in the places where I work, the
teams didn't actually run as many calls. I wanted
to be out there in the shit. I always worked
in the hood usually until the last place because
there was no hood in Disney. You know, that's
that's why I wanted to help the most desperate
people. But I took all my ops and tech classes
so that I was, again, another useful body on
that call. I can help belay. I can, you know,
whatever the things need to be. And so this is
what really blows me away about that disconnect
that you're talking about, especially in some
of these new firefighters. You know, they came
on in like fucking 2024 and they're growing a
mustache and talking about not wanting to do
EMS. like then you're living in a fairy tale
yeah but to me this is what makes american you
know and canadian fire so incredible and there's
dublin shout out to dublin they do this too um
is to get on a rig and have such a diverse set
of skills that you might have to use and try
and stay on top of those and try and then as
we talk about your mental health and your physical
health and you know fitness and all that stuff
that is the job that is what makes it so amazing
because you can be a single syrup medic and you
know That would be a good job. But to me, then
I get to go in a fire or cut someone out of a
car or hang off the side of a building on a rope
or go into a tunnel or jump into a lake. And
that's all still under this job description.
That's why I was like, well, as a paramedic,
this is great. But as a firefighter, I can access
people in environments that I can't access them
as a paramedic. And I became a paramedic because
the EMT wasn't enough. I wanted to have... I
love that about being able to just get on a call,
come on a call, whatever it is, and leave there
having mitigated the situation. It really is
an incredible feeling to be able to do that.
I think going back to the work week, the recruitment
crisis, the retention crisis, I think if we invest
back into the men and women, that surf selflessly
and leave their loved ones 24 hours at a time.
And given an environment where they do get the
rest and recovery they deserve, that will then
create such an interest back into our profession
again, because young people here that were not
dying in droves anymore, and it is healthy, and
you won't have to stay away from your family
for eight hours a week. Now you're going to have
this mass... recruitment boost again, which again,
Gainesville and Pasco County and Destin, Florida,
they're all seeing this. The ones that have gone
to it the last couple of years or so, their lists
are huge again. Now you take that top 10%, now
you've got a department of people who really
understand and their purpose is actually to help
people, not to be on Instagram in the uniform.
So I think that you'll change the culture. When
you fix the problem and then you'll be able to
squeeze out that, like you said, that kind of
divisive antagonistic or I only do fire bullshit
that we hear because, you know, if you're the
right kind of candidate, you should have, you
know, your quiver should be full of all different
types of arrows that you can pull out when needed.
Yeah. I mean, I just think that we got to start
talking about the fire service as what the fire
service is. It's the medical trauma service.
with fire the whole mentality you in order to
change the culture i feel you've got to change
the mentality and and if you look back you know
the fire departments they were established they're
running calls they're they're set up to run calls
24 7 for emergencies and stuff so it made sense
to put the paramedics in there when they when
they came up with paramedics to put it in the
fire service but we're still operating as if
fire is our main thing and it's not you you're
not you know we don't tell these young firefighters
yeah you're gonna go be fighting fires all the
stuff they don't know that they're that they're
gonna be you know walking through vomit and blood
piss and shit you know they're like i'm not a
paramedic you do that you're the puke and it's
like yeah i am this is what we do this is our
job and so like you said the guy was two years
on the handlebar mustache it's We got to be real.
We got to talk about I want to change the culture
because I feel like changing the culture is what's
going to save lives and the stuff you're doing
with this sleep deprivation. But I don't know
if you saw my second TEDx talk about the one
in the white shirt. And it's all about I didn't.
And you mentioned Victorian England. And that's
where it comes from. From what I understand,
this suck it up buttercup culture comes from
the Industrial Revolution. when they were making
um you know they had these discoveries that we
were helping stuff in the farm so you didn't
need as much people and then you had like the
spinning jenny and those inventions in the cities
and factories so you have this huge mass migration
to the cities and this horrible this complete
change of life from you know moving with the
seasons to being on time and done that's that
was the beginning and then world war one comes
and they're already set up to you know suffer
and endure in silence in world war ii and then
we get the the model of the james after world
war ii you know you have gi joe or the um um
the what's the duke what was his name john john
wayne is this is the picture of the modern day
hero you know take it all and right off into
the sunset and i think that's what we were basing
this whole hero thing of the fire service on
is that we can take it all and and we're superhuman
and now we're discovering that we're not and
anyway i i just i just i pull back and when i
see it um sorry um if we really want to make
some change we got to talk about What we do is
we do medical and trauma calls and fire. And,
you know, yes, we need to be dialed in on fire.
We need to be dialed in on everything. We have
to have that whole skill set, be able to use
all the tools, and then train on it all instead
of only training on fire. You know, train on
all this stuff so we can be great. There's a
guy that he also walked away from the fire department
after, I think, 14 years, and I had a conversation
with him. he became a paramedic after like seven
years and he really saw came back to the station
after you know he was in he was a firefighter
one of the boys he's in with the station he goes
to paramedic school comes back to the station
and they tell him we go sit over there with the
captains you know you're not a firefighter anymore
and so he really did got to see the the difference
in the way he was treated and he had already
been a kick -ass firefighter so um he ended up
getting called i think on his way home from work
coming off of four or five days in a row and
they wanted to assign hire him and he's just
like no and so he quits the and where he lives
people were telling him you should join this
fire department here he's like no i'm done with
fire you know he's just not into it at all but
anyway they talk him into it so he goes through
the academy and uh now and all the Every firefighter
in this fire department is also a paramedic.
There's no EMTs. So he comes into the station
the first day, and he's got all the armor on.
He's ready to throw the shots, and he's ready
for war. And he comes in, and they're like, hey,
man, great to see you. Welcome to the station.
Put your stuff here. How do you like your coffee?
Yada, yada. He said that they've had, for every
save, cardiac arrest save um that they had at
la they're having like 10 10 to 1 because of
the level of care that they're giving that's
that's real time stuff i mean that's real world
experience that he's having with with the level
of give a about the medical calls is just as
important to everybody not just the paramedic
on scene but everybody there And the results
are speaking for themselves. So that's why another
thing to back up this idea that changing the
way that we think about this industry, the fire
industry, would really help to change the culture.
Absolutely. Well, I want to go all the way back
because you've got a really interesting life
prior to even joining the fire service. When
you were in the school age, obviously you talked
about the actors that you already had in your
family. Was that something you were already dreaming
of becoming or was there something else? There
was, from what I saw, I would never be an actor
ever in my life. One thing I didn't want to be,
you know, Cloris Leachman's son, the actor, you
know, and always wonder how I got that job. And
for another, I, I wasn't, I was sort of Hollywood
adjacent. I didn't really know anything, but
like my mom would drop me off at Paul Newman's
house and I'd stay there for three or four or
five days. And I didn't know, I mean, I knew
he was an actor and, but I didn't really know
who he was. He was just a cool dude that made
great spaghetti and drove us all in his back
of his Corvette at 90 miles an hour on Mulholland.
I just saw, I think I really saw the, the fakeness
in it and people that were just thought much
of themselves. I'm like, dude, you're just another
person. So for many reasons, I, that was absolutely
something that was never in the cards for me
at all. So, no. With Paul Newman, the legacy
that he left behind with all the charity money
that's raised through the food products that
you can buy, what was he like as a person? Remove
the acting now. What was he like as a human being?
I don't know anything about the acting. He was
an awesome guy. He was just really cool. He was
just a great guy. He had three daughters. One
was sort of my age. One was a little younger.
I was a little older, and I played with them.
They were all into riding horses, so they'd have
the stick horses, and we'd go running around,
jumping over things. No, I remember him as a
great guy. I ran into him later. He was racing,
or his team was racing up in Monterey. There's
an amazing track up there. I can't come to the
name right now, but I had this girl I was dating,
and I went. and i hadn't seen him in years but
i somehow got onto the track and got his attention
he was just so cool you know he had us in the
thing and um yeah he was he was just a great
guy and then my father was so my mother was part
of this the actor's studio which was um lee strausberg
i believe um in marlon brando joanne woodward
uh my mom there was all these people that became
huge dark later and marlin supposedly had a crush
on my mother but she would never give it up huge
womanizer um but uh and so when when my mom married
my dad lauren's like i gotta see who this guy
is you know so they become best friends throughout
life and a lot of parallels a lot of similarities
um he would call the time um quite a very different
person than anybody else on earth um he was really
cool i ruptured my kidney in high school and
my my parents were out of town nobody was there
i was there for weeks and he came i'll never
forget he came with his wife and he brought me
haagen -dazs chocolate chip ice cream haagen
-dazs had just become a thing then and uh But
I didn't know these people as actors, as their
career. I wasn't plugged into that at all. I
could really give a shit. And so, and my father
was also like, never take anything from your
mother, never. He was just really looked down
on the whole industry, even though he was in
it. So, yeah, it was never an option for me to
be an actor, although I did become one, and I
can tell you about that. Yeah, I was going to
say, so you got this refusal to enter that space.
How did you find yourself entering that space?
So, like I said, I ruptured my kidney in high
school, and it turns out I have this horseshoe
kidney where my kidneys are fused across my abdomen.
And so I got hit in the abdomen, which nothing
is supposed to be there. and I ruptured my kidney
out, and I almost bled out. They didn't end up
doing surgery, but I had so much blood in there.
When it did coagulate, it was like a grapefruit,
and I would sleep on one side. I'd push it like
that, and it would pop over to the other side.
So it took a long time to heal from that. So
they said, this horseshoe kidney, you're done
with football. No way can you ever play again.
But for me, Football, when I found football in
11th grade, it was life changing. I was going
in a really bad direction. I was getting arrested.
I'd been expelled from three junior high schools
and really not going the right way. So finding
football was a life changer for me. The discipline,
the father figure, the brotherhood, all of it.
And I wasn't ready to let it go. I mean, it was
my identity now. And so I went to junior college
in Monterey. It was one of the most competitive
ones in the state. And played two years there.
Then I went to Colorado to play at University
of Colorado Boulder. And during the summer conditioning,
we had to meet with the doctor and fill out our
questionnaire. And I had mentioned horseshoe
kidneys. He's like, oh, sit down. And he goes,
oh. He goes, right. There was nothing else. We
didn't talk. He goes, I don't see you have a
horseshoe kidney. I was like, yeah. Well, that
started a three -week battery of tests. I had
five specialists looking at it, doing the MRIs
and the drinking, all that crap. And I came in
to meet the coach on the day to find out what
the verdict was. and when I walked in the door,
it's not just the football coach, it's all the
sports, and they have sort of, it's all partitioned
off, and there's glass partitions on the upper
part. It's glass. You can see all the way, and
I opened the door, and I saw the coach all the
way at the other end, and we locked eyes. I just
went, oh, I walk over and get there, and the
doctor's there, and I sit down. No, I'm standing
there, and I say, well, am I in or out? And he
says, you know, sit down. I said, no, I don't
want to. He goes, no, I need to explain. It's
like, don't fucking explain it. Just yes or no.
He goes, please. And the coach is like, more
than just sit down. And so basically it's a no.
He tells me, you know, if we, if we, if there's
any way we could let you play, it would be, but
you know, this is the big eight. You take a hit
here and you'll bleed to death before we can
even get to you. You can take it through law
and do that stuff. But, you know, we just can't
be conscious to allow you to play anymore. So
that was the end of that. And I just, this was
1983. And this is the middle of cocaine era.
And I just, I was at this college and. And I
just started getting just fucked up every night.
So was everybody else. But then this guy that
I'd become friends with said, hey, you know,
I'm going to take this acting class. You want
to take it with me? I'm like, yeah, whatever.
But I took it and I did, I had this first monologue
and I stood up there and I'm just doodling with
my, you know. My finger's going around my belly
button, and I'm just really awkward, and it's
terrible. I go back and sit in the audience,
and this other girl gets up, and she goes onto
the stage, and she starts putting stuff around,
and she moves this over here, moves that over
there. We're all talking, waiting for her to
set up, but she's creating this room. And, you
know, the lights stand here, and this is it.
By the time she had that all set up, she lays
down on the bed. and we're at the edge of our
seats like what's going to happen next because
she created this whole world and i was blown
away by her performance and i'm like wow i was
just on that exact same stage and the difference
between what i did and what she did i won't do
that and so um once once i just it was like in
my blood this is what I have to do. And that
I ended up doing a couple of plays and they,
I got into the BFA program for acting or they
wanted me to go in and I'm like, you know, this
is not where if I'm going to act, I need to be
in New York, not LA around, you know, in Hollywood
and New York where the artists are. And so I,
I auditioned for this school in New York. It's
like kind of like Juilliard for acting and theater.
And while I was in that, I got a part in a play
here in Los Angeles at the Amundsen Theater,
which is like Broadway in New York. I mean, you
don't get any bigger than the Amundsen Theater.
All -star cast, Dick Van Patten, Michael Learned,
Rue McClanahan, Kachata Farrell, just the whole
cast, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Gregory Harrison,
all -star cast, and me. I had this cool little
parts of it. But while I was in rehearsal, my
brother died. We OD'd in New York. And that really
messed me up for a couple of years. But then
I decided, yeah, I do want to be a working actor.
I want to be a working actor. Went back to New
York. And one thing I didn't do was audition
for soap operas because I didn't want to do them.
So I said, well, if I want to be a working actor,
then I'm cutting out a huge part of the business.
So I opened that up and six months later, I did
a lot of theater, but I ended up getting this
soap opera and doing a role on there for about
five and a half years. And then I moved. I was
not in a great marriage. And I knew that I'd
watch other people get like a new producer would
come in and then fire a bunch of people and bring
her or his actors in that they wanted. And I
just really saw that this wasn't stable and I
didn't want to get stuck in New York. So I quit
the show, and I moved us all back to California,
to Los Angeles. And I was trying to act here,
but I couldn't stand the Hollywood of it, the
arrogance, and just couldn't stand it. And then
we were about to get into a divorce, and I realized
that I needed to... have something steady that
I could rely on that I could be proud of and
do. And then, so that, so I got into my EMT and
started doing ski patrol. Then some really gnarly
stuff happened in my family. And that I just
completely went into, I was like, I'm going for
paramedic. And I, I left it all behind and went
full a hundred percent into the first responder
world. So you do the EMS journey. Did you work
as a medic before you went to the fireside? Yeah.
As far as the fire academy? Yeah, I didn't. Like
I said, I mean, I wanted to be a paramedic. That's
what I wanted to do. I was an EMT. I was doing
ski patrol. And I was like, this is really, I
do love this. I do want to do it. But I don't
want to just be able to show up and offer a Band
-Aid. I want to be able to make a difference.
So that was clearly the paramedic. There was
another paramedic that was a young guy. He was
another ski patroller. And I just thought, wow,
man, he tells stories. I was like, yeah, it's
amazing. I want to do that. So I did. How competitive
was it to get hired as a firefighter paramedic?
And what year was that you were trying? Well,
I had heard throughout my life, like, don't even
bother because you're white. And but I'd forgotten
about all that. It was just once I became a paramedic,
it was the natural next step. And I wanted to
be at L .A. City. I didn't really I did test
for some other places. Then I think a big department
like that is you just got to keep showing up.
You just got to keep. doing you know well also
i was 39 40 i turned 41 in the tower in the academy
so there was probably a little more paperwork
for me to do and things and hoops i needed to
jump through um but ultimately it was just continue
to show up i think with smaller departments it's
more like do we like you do you fit in here with
la city it's just um just keep showing up and
and do what to tell you so it seems sort of inevitable
looking back but maybe it's not i don't really
know how i got in or or you know i just kept
showing up with them and the other the the other
ones i the interviews are different you know
it's uh they're more personal and smaller department
i'm thinking ventura city ventura county some
of the other interviews that i had which I didn't
get. So I don't know. I ended up getting it.
This was 2004 when I got hired. Okay. That's
exactly when I got hired. Yeah, I got hired in
Florida in 2004 and then hired by Anaheim in
2005. So, you know, in California, I've said
this on here many times, for Anaheim, at the
written test were a thousand certified firefighter
EMTs or paramedics. And most of them, yeah, and
they had resumes. As you said earlier, you know,
they were CDF, they were explorers, they were,
you know, ambulance operators. So it wasn't even
just, you know. you know bright -eyed and bushy
-tailed they've been trying some of them for
years to get hired yeah i think this going back
to how we fixed the fire service we got to forget
that there was a massive demand back in the day
and we've lost that like we destroyed that and
it wasn't even 9 -11 because i recently i was
like oh yeah but it was you know post 9 -11 there
was a big push but no because ask the guys that
came on men and women that came on prior to 9
-11 it was still super super competitive so you
know There is a love for this job. And the reason
why I'm still doing this, the reason why you're
still talking about what you do is because of
the love of the job. But we have to acknowledge
how competitive it was up to only about 10 years
ago and how far we've fallen from that to now.
You've got agencies offering tens of thousands
of dollars as a hiring bonus, begging high school
kids to, they'll train them, everything. Just
please, please come, you know, be a firefighter
with us. And then we wonder why we have some
of the issues that we have, you know, today.
But I think it's really important for people
to know what that looked like. Trying to get
hired just, you know, again, 10, 15, 20 years
ago was so hard. Yeah, that, you know, I don't
know how it is now, but I do know that they were
hiring people with absolutely no fire experience
over other people that had put in years, put
in the time. And, you know, these people are
not, it's, I don't know, maybe it's DEI or whatever,
but it's, it definitely is. It's wanting to fill
a quota, whether it's female or, you know, minority
or whatever it is. And it's, I think, you know,
you've got people that have sacrificed for years,
young people, to get this job. And you're not
taking that into account. I don't know about
how hard it is to get in. I don't really remember
all that. I know I tried a few times, but I really
tried with LA City. That was the only place I
really put 100 % in. And I got lucky, I guess.
Maybe they needed the old guy. you know i was
definitely you you were a you know affirmative
action exactly i might have been part of it so
um you know i don't know maybe i'm shooting myself
in the foot but um uh yeah so i i don't know
i don't know about the hiring and all that i
i uh it's a great job but it's it we need to
fix some things for sure how we treat each other
and How we look at our own emotional and mental
health and that being at least as important as
our physical, all of it needs to be in balance.
So, yeah, that's a tough job. It should be tough,
but it doesn't, shouldn't be designed to kill
you. And both this culture, the schedule, there
are many factors that... make it a killer job.
If you don't have the strength, the personal
strength to balance your life, balance your mental
health and your physical and all that stuff,
then it's going to go bad for you. And most of
us don't, at least historically. So this is a
really great time to bring awareness. Just to
acknowledge that this is what reality is in the
life of a first responder. Absolutely. Just quickly
with the diversity hire, it's so crazy because
the solution is so easy. I mean, acknowledging
that absolutely there are lots of fire departments
that at a certain time were not hiring people
of certain backgrounds or genders or whatever
it is. I've said this many times, like we all
know when we're in bunker gear in a structure
fire, there's only one prejudice. You can see
if someone can or they can't. That's it. You
don't know what color. Yellow. Exactly. Exactly.
So with that being said, acknowledging that there
are absolutely areas that are underserved when
it comes to their ability to know about and become
a firefighter. The mentorship programs, like
one of my friends, Chris Hickman, started here
in Ocala. is the solution. You create this training,
you put it in these areas where there isn't usually
the access to that kind of thing. You invite
and empower people of all backgrounds to come
participate. And three things will happen. You
know, they'll go, oh, yeah, I definitely don't
want to do that now. Now I've learned how hard
it is. Or I'm not sure. I think I want to do
it, but I certainly need to prepare more. So
I'm going to keep doing the work or this is the
thing I've been looking for my whole life. And
so now of those groups that are underserved,
you find the ones that are supposed to be good
firefighters, not. go out and get me 20 black
guys and three lesbians because that's what we
need. So this is, I think there's such an easy
solution. Acknowledge where you're failing in
the groups of the communities that you're not
accessing because it's expensive to go to fire
academy. It's expensive to go to paramedic school
and not everyone can. Make that happen. So you
give them, you know, the zero barrier to access
to this mentor programs. You have scholarships
for fire academies and medic schools, et cetera,
et cetera. And then, you know, you have employment
opportunities that people have gone through the
pipeline. And now you've found the best people
of those other communities that are going to
become incredible firefighters and paramedics.
That is so key because it's making the access.
I mean, you go to an inner city school. and you
come in there and go hey we want you to dig and
talk about the job that maybe they don't even
know it's an option for them you know so it's
a great idea to get to get out to the people
do outreach in the places where we need to be
i mean everyone it really is a job where or any
of it is it's what who's you have certain skills
for this job that's going to make you good at
it something you're motivated to do, then that's
the person you want in that job. It doesn't matter
the culture, nothing else really matters. It
matters their ability and their give a shit level.
And I think you're right. A lot of people, a
lot of kids just don't even know that they have
the option or where to start. So a great way
to start getting a full spectrum of humanity.
in the department 100 well reflecting back on
your career what are some of the you know what
we would call career calls whether it was a big
event or whether it was just simply a moment
of you know kindness and compassion that stuck
with you well i'll never forget um about 3 34
in the morning we just got our asses kicked all
day and i think i'd worked the day before but
My partner and I, we're in the ambulance. We
get called. It's a sick lady. And we go up there.
Little old lady. She's like 89 or something.
And I check her all out and she's fine. There's
nothing wrong with her. I tell her, hey, there's
nothing wrong. I'm not going to suggest you go
to the hospital because there's nothing wrong
with you. But I knew there was something. I couldn't
just leave. My partner was getting frustrated.
He was like, dude, just go down and take the
stuff down. I got this. I'll be down in a minute.
And I ended up making her a pot of tea. And we
sat there and we talked. And she'd lost her whole
family. I mean, everyone she loved was dead.
Her kids and stuff, they never talked to her
anymore. And she was just lonely, you know. And
I spent about a half an hour with her. And afterwards.
I just gave her a big hug, and I feel like I
made a difference that night. And then there's
the chats where a train crashed, 25 dead, in
the middle of a car that's turned over with bodies
and body parts just squished into place and squished
together, and that was pretty surreal. I got
this opportunity to go to Oaxaca. This guy that
started the coaching company that helped me get
the TEDx talk, he goes and builds houses for
impoverished people around the world. And I got
this email saying, do you want to be a volunteer
and go to Oaxaca and do this? And it wasn't a
decision that I made consciously. It was like,
yeah, go. And I didn't know why. connection that
i have or even why i know about oaxaca is that
when i was a paramedic down here in oxnard we
went to this this little shack on the north side
of the freeway outskirts of oxnard in the fields
and it was always there was always an 11 or 12
year old female in active labor and they were
from oaxaca they didn't speak any english and
no spanish there was this old lady there not
old but you know like mean looking woman who
spoke spanish and she would translate but i'd
never um you know it felt wrong we're talking
11 and 12 year old girls one of them had twins
so i delivered four babies out of this place
and um and i it just seemed wrong but we didn't
i didn't really have a term of sex or sex trafficking
or that kind of stuff now but i knew that it
was i was telling myself maybe it was a you know
a cultural thing from the tribe that they came
from that you know but there was nothing joyful
about this it was clearly it was that so that's
stuck with me and when that that uh call came
in uh like yeah i gotta go somehow kind of bring
it full circle not something that i that really
bothers me or that i it sticks with me like oh
but uh it just It was one of those things where
it's so odd, so different, and so kind of wrong
that it'll always have a memory. So it's kind
of cool to maybe come full circle. I don't even
know. I just don't know. He's guiding this thing.
So educate me. The Oaxaca, where are they from?
Which part of the world and which background?
So Oaxaca is... it's near mexico city it's it's
actually a big area of mexico but oaxaca itself
i think is a little town and there's a heavy
aztec influence there um and so you still have
these tribes that are not they don't speak spanish
you know they're they're from they're not mexican
they're not like they're original indigenous
people to Mexico or tribes and things like that.
Um, and so that's where it is. Um, and I, like
I said, I don't, it doesn't even make sense for
me to go there right now, but I had to raise
$3 ,000. That pays for half the materials for
one house. Got 40 volunteers building 20 houses
in two days. And, uh, um, I just. I know there's
a reason I'm going. I don't know why, but it's
brought that call up heavy in my mind or those
calls that experience there. So a lot of us know
that when we are invested in this incredible
calling, so we have this identity, you have this
tribe, you have this purpose, even though we
talked about, you know, what was the purpose
really, as far as, you know, fire EMS, et cetera,
you still have this reason that you put the uniform
on and go and help everyone. What was it or what
were the compounding elements that made you decide
to transition out? Well, there's definitely a
thing that happened. My first station out of
probation was an engine house, but it was so
busy. As a paramedic, I was never able to get
certified on the engine to spend the time to
do that. to act on my, but I really wanted to
be, to get into USAR. It was just, I really wanted
to be there. And so I put in a transfer request
to USAR station and the captain was like, no,
you know, you should get certified, do this stuff
first. And I didn't listen to him. I just went.
And so now I'm at a task force house. pretty
much straight off probation. And it's a USAR
task force house. So you got that specialty on
top of now having the truck and the full run,
all the engines and stuff there. And it's just
that, that mentality. It just, nobody talks to
you. It's always negative, always putting you
down. i just kind of i've spent three and a half
years there worked hard and everything but i
was just like you know this is not the place
for me um let me just go where somewhere else
anywhere else i went to another task force house
and um everything went well for the first six
months a year um then the captains changed and
this crew was older they were kind of my age
but they had 30 years on where i had four or
five and um it just started getting uncomfortable
and one day uh so we got a new captain in there
this guy that was they loved and they wanted
him in and yada yada and uh so he gets there
he doesn't say a word to me for the first several
weeks that he's there um and I you know he would
take the rookie out and teach him about LA and
I'd follow him out and you know always trying
to learn what I could and always working hard
and one day And after dinner, he says, hey, let's
go out in the patio and have a cup of coffee.
I'm like, great. He's going to, like, actually
get to know me, you know, spend some time. And
so we sit down and he goes, well, how do you
think it's going for you, Morgan? I said, it's
good. I'm working. I'm training hard. I'm working
hard. He goes, yeah, yeah. We can all see how
hard you work. But the reality is you just don't
fit in here. And one of us is leaving and it's
not going to be me. I said, okay, well, thank
you for telling me. You know, I'll find another
place. And the problem was we had staffing shortages,
and the only places that were open was Skid Row
and MacArthur Park. And I was raising two kids
by myself. I really needed to be closer to home.
And so I didn't want to go back downtown. I'd
done my time down there. Really didn't want to
do that, but I was applying to every other station.
No movement, no movement. Well, the screws started
getting turning harder and harder, just making
it uncomfortable. You know, little ticky -tack
things. Go drills designed to completely humiliate
me just because it was way above my head. You
know, where I'm acting on the engine is something
that I've never even trained on. Like lay one,
drag one, something like that. You know, just
kept pushing through, kept pushing through, and
then started getting called in the office every
night for just ticky -tack bullshit. I literally
said, are you fucking kidding me? You're having
me in here for this? It's just so stupid. And
then it keeps going on, and it's just more and
more uncomfortable. And then one night, I get
called in the front office, and I hadn't been
called in in a few weeks. Shit. My roommate needs
me to pick him up from the surgery, but whatever.
So I'm thinking, well, maybe they're going to
ask me to stay because it's been going pretty
well. And well, I come into the front office
and what I see is a dark room. It had little,
you know, it's got those panels in the ceiling,
those white kind of panels and there's little
lights. little lights that shine straight down
they're all turned off all the lights are off
except for one light that's shining down on a
chair in the middle of the room and it's facing
the two captain's desks and cap says sit down
we're going to talk you're going to listen and
i'm like what did i do i'm just going through
this is gnarly this is serious this is i don't
know what's happening but this is dire situation
And he starts talking about a nurse or a hospital
and this. I can't really figure out what he's
saying. He's not being clear or really telling
me what happened. But what I'm starting to realize
is that he's accusing me of some form of sexual
harassment. And I'm looking back. I'm like, okay,
well, I know that. I don't have anything to worry
about there. And I realized that. He was willing
to accuse me of this and set up this whole thing.
I was that hated that they wanted me out. That
he was willing to do that. So he's finally, he
finally, I heard him say, I'm realizing in his
mind, I hear him say, I'm sure you know what
I'm talking about. I go, Cap, I don't have a
fucking clue what you're talking about. He sits
back in his chair, his eyes go wide. He's like,
he thought he had me cold. and he's sputtering
you know like a dying engine and well um um well
let's change gears let's talk about uh i know
you're trying to transfer out i said well yeah
nines and elevens open well put in brownies i'm
sure i'll get one of those are we done here he's
like uh yeah yeah so i put in a transfer request
to both those stations dropped him on his desk
and then um later that night or later that show
that was about eight o 'clock at night it's about
4 30 in the morning we get a structure fire call
and i'm tillering on the truck and we go we go
and we got a mini mansion going like a the second
story's going like a bomb and uh we've got fire
blowing out the windows like heavy it's spanish
tile roof so the ricky and i throw the 35 we
go i'm leading off the aerial I've got the roof
kit in my hand, and I'm aware that this is no
joke. Like, if I go in this, I ain't coming.
Nobody's coming out of this. And it's Spanish
tile roof. It's a Spanish tile roof, so I can't
sound it. So I'm out about 10, 15 feet, and I
feel this just like almost a punch from behind,
like a psychic punch of going. Like, it was so
evil. And I can't just, I don't know. I'm just
telling you what happened. And I felt it from
behind and it looked back behind me. And I see
the guy that drives the truck who had just been
one of the biggest assholes in the department.
But specifically with me, he had a problem. And
the look on his face, it was the look of what
I felt. I felt it. And it was like. I hope you,
I hope this roof opens up and swallows you. And
I think without a doubt that whole experience
that I just described to you was, that's when
I broke. That's when, you know, if my captain
had told me to jump off this roof, I would have
just, you know, go. Not really, but you know
what I'm saying? It's like, This, to me, and
I don't want to sound like a baby, but I feel
like they should be protecting you, training
you. Again, I just felt I didn't care anymore.
I didn't have any more motivation. I don't know
really how to describe it, but I just, everything
was gone. All my, it was just gone. And I ended
up working. So I went downtown and worked three
years down there. And then I just kind of existed.
I ended up getting back into a USAR house. And
when I came to that house, So I worked downtown
and I wanted to get back into a station I wanted
to be in with the USAR. And so I put in a request
for this one station and I didn't get it. I got
somebody else. And then one of the firemen that
I was working with was like, hey, you got more
time than him. You deserve that spot. So I called
in and I asked about it. It turns out that they
had something screwed up in the computer. And
yes, I had the time and I got the spot. So I
show up. to get my key, you know, meet all the
guys, sit down for dinner, and then we go into
the captain's office, and he's going to, you
know, usually tell you this is how I run the
station, this is what I expect, you know, doors
always open, I'm a firefighter's captain, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. But he says, we sit down,
he says, so, you know, usually guys call ahead
and see if we have somebody else in mind, and
we had somebody else we wanted here, basically
saying, you know, we didn't want you here. He
doesn't even know me. So I said, well, Cap, I
have to be here for at least one segment. That's
three shifts. So all I'd ask is that you keep
an open mind. I'll work hard and we'll come back
after this. And, you know, if you still feel
the same way, then I'm happy to transfer out.
So we get a boom and structure fire, big. you
know first shift kick ass you know everything
goes really great third shift to make a good
dinner everyone loves it we go into the front
office um to you know he says well what do you
think i said i love it i really would like to
be here he goes well we'd love to have you it's
like awesome so all good right except that every
time we go on a medical call or something He
would, you know, you look back at building, he
goes, okay, we got a fire in the back corner,
second story. Where are you going to ladder?
What's your hose lay? Right. We do a fire scenario.
He would turn his back to me and he'd do the
fire scenario with the two other firefighters.
And he did this over and over and over, just
things like that, that were just little, little
ways to. like he'd say, yeah, you're doing great.
And then he'd just cut me out and just these,
all these little ways of, of diminishing you.
And I don't know why I don't, I never knew this
guy before. And if you got a problem, fucking
tell me, you know, don't act like a little bitch.
And, and, you know, like you're in high school.
It's, um, so I, uh, I ended up getting like,
The hernia at work, found out I had two, possibly
three. So I was off duty recovering from a double
hernia operation. And I called my mom. I was
going to say, I need to break up with my girlfriend.
And what came out of my mouth was, I got to quit
this job. She goes, why don't you then? What?
You don't quit the fire? I started thinking about
what that would look like. By the time I got
back to work, I had this huge smile on my face,
and finally the captains called me, and they
go, what's going on? What are you smiling about?
I go, well, I'm leaving. I'm done. And so I just
said, let's pick a date, and that'll be my last
day. And six months later, I walked out of the
fire station. No pension, nothing, just I knew
that I wasn't going to be long for this world
if I stayed. So for me, when I say the moral
injury, it's just so much of that type of thing,
especially from the captains. The captains dictate
how everybody treats everybody. You get a rookie
that was a framer or something, the captain's
going to be kissing his ass the whole time. some
guy that or girl that's a was a store manager
or something other than blue collar electrician
plumber mechanic um you're gonna get hammered
so and having been an actor i don't think that
helped me at all you know i had a real to overcome
that everywhere i went was um tough and not only
an actor but my mother was an actor so you know
you can imagine what everybody thought of me
or many people assumed so i'm not i'm not you
know i don't know how much that has to do with
it but um it was the it was by far the stuff
that i saw with the captains specifically um
but just overall the way that we treat each other
is not I just don't want to be in that environment.
I did as much as I could do, and I really want
to have joy and peace, and I want to help people
still. But I think, honestly, looking back, that
I went through that experience, and it was a
particularly difficult career so that I could.
come out and make changes or offer changes that
will literally save people's lives. Okay, I have
not told anybody some of the stuff that I just
told you. Like, I did a podcast with this former
cop. And afterwards, it was before I did my second
TEDx talk. And afterwards, he said, you know,
I've asked about anything I could have done differently.
And he said, you know, if you're going to do
this work, you need to find a way to be able
to talk about it and really tell your stories
because that's where the healing happens. That's
what somebody out there needs to hear your story.
This is fucking gnarly. I did not expect to be.
I don't want this to come out as blame or anything.
I take full responsibility for my experience,
my actions. There's no blame on anybody. But
that was some of my experience and why I left.
It's important to hear. It really is. I get to
obviously speak to a lot of people and a lot
of people that are respected around the country
that go and teach in other departments behind
the scenes have similar stories, whether it's
captains, BCs, the fire chief, the union. I mean,
you know, you name it, there's all these different
things. And it's, again, I would argue that a
lot of this is still rooted in trauma, unaddressed
trauma. And I've said this with the work week
thing. We have chiefs that work 40 hours a week.
That sleep soundly in their beds whilst their
men and women are being forced into mandatory
after mandatory after mandatory working 80 plus
hour weeks and not seeing their children. And
they sleep like a baby. So. that we talk about
the trauma and the mental health from us boots
on the ground you know running the calls the
medics the firefighters but we don't talk about
really especially as you climb the ranks even
though you know we do when there's a suicide
of you know a battalion chief or district chief
wherever it is but that also affects the day
-to -day living so don't get me wrong of course
there are times where the wrong person is wearing
the uniform and they are not doing the job well
and you've taken the time to mentor them and
they're still awful that's not what we're talking
about we're talking about the person who's really
no so we're talking about the person who's really
trying to do a good job but there's a toxic environment
and i would argue that the more we address the
mental health conversation the more we address
the sleep deprivation more we address the the
unneeded you know unending forced overtime you
are going to see an improvement in toxic culture
and the fact that you know in some of these situations
i I guarantee you if you could climb into the
head of some of the people that were having these
problems and creating this toxicity, there's
probably some pain in there. So the number of
people that are really trying to do the best
that they can, I had this the last place I worked
at, just trying to get the training where it
needed to be. Trying to address fitness levels,
trying to address the fact that some people couldn't
even put their mask on without freaking out.
These are extremely serious things that need
to be addressed and kind of vilified for it.
So I understand it completely. I've been there
and I get it. And I think that you telling the
story, I'm sure a lot of people listening are
going to be nodding their heads. There's going
to be people in stations that are really passionate
about the job. the crew the environment they're
working with is sit down shut up you're making
us look bad all that kind of um so it is it's
an important conversation you know that the job
is an incredible thing you know the fireside
the ems like we said the swiss army knife skills
there is no need for an environment to be you
know toxic when it's not warranted so I think
it's good that you're coming out and talking
about this because it's not whining. It's not
like, oh, firefighting is really hard and I don't
like carrying stuff and the suit's really hot.
It's just I'm trying to do the best I can, but
these personalities, no matter what I do, are
just smashing me down again. And I think I really
feel like this is a global mental health conversation.
The more we all heal at every single rank, the
less toxic these departments are going to become.
Yeah. Yeah, I got, I don't want to like give
away anyone's story or anything, but I had chiefs
calling me after they had seen my talk or just
that I was doing a talk and telling me their
stories about, you know, what they've had to,
especially during COVID, what they had to ask
of their members and then watching someone die
and then forcing them to get the vaccine and,
you know, stuff like that. What I want to say,
oh, just on a personal note, every evaluation
that I ever had was standard or above. Like each
check was standard, but mostly standard because
we don't do above. But there were some of that.
And, you know, I think about this one station
where they, you know, getting called in, you
don't fit in here, yada, yada, yada, pointing
out all my deficiencies and stuff. And yet. My
evaluation was standard and above every time.
So it's like, it's not real. You know, why wouldn't
you had a perfect opportunity? You want to get
me out or you want to, you want to show what
a piece of shit I am. Like, give me a bad evaluation.
So it's, I think there's so much left to. for
instance, if you want to, and I don't know how
it is in other departments, but if you want to,
you're expected to be able to sit in every seat
in every apparatus in the engine. So in the,
in the station, so in the engineer seat, in the
captain's seat, in the truck driver's seat, the
tiller inside hydrant, you know, all nozzle,
every single position in every apparatus. But
what I found is that there's, there is no, standardized
thing of certification. There's no, you have
to learn this, this, and this, and then you will
be certified to work on the engine anywhere in
the city. It's all about personality. It's what
the captain decides along with the rated member,
what they're, what's going to, how you're going
to get that certification. And so what we were
just talking about, there's so many ways that
you could at least give a basic. level of training
that you have to complete that you can see i
do this this and this and i get to hear but there
is not did you did you have that sort of experience
or i don't know how it was in the departments
you worked in but yeah no it was it was the opposite
yeah every you know to write up as an engineer
you had to do you know hydraulics and all kinds
of hands -on and right but was it was it deep
was it was it Did you have a thing that said,
you do this, you learn this about hydraulics,
you learn da -da -da -da -da -da, and then you
get signed off, you're certified to act? Yes,
we did have that in the places I worked. As far
as I know, that didn't exist. It was just really
kind of left to the station commander and the
radio member to get you through that process.
And then when you went to a new station, you
got a whole different district, different water
systems and all that. So you'd have to obviously...
you know prove yourself there but but as far
as i know that there's no basic standardized
um program or or thing that you do that goes
from here to here and now you're certified if
you want to become an engineer then yeah there's
but if you just want to be get certified and
meet that expectation of the station it's it's
not based on anything real it's all you know
if they want to if they don't they like you they
don't um and i've seen people get that have been
working really hard and another person and they're
clearly able and capable and i would follow them
up a ladder any day of the week then you got
somebody else that's lagging and just not quite
getting it probably never will and the captain's
saying i'm not going to certify this guy because
um this guy's not ready and and he it's choice.
It's a political choice. It's not a choice. It's
not based on merit. And here we come back to,
to the, the hiring aspect in. So I think basing
stuff on merit and having at least a basic standard
in a lot of these areas would just make it cleaner,
make it, make you make, make you. You have clear
expectations that you can clearly define and
then you can clearly act for that. But I guess
what I'm I'm saying is that a lot of this culture
is left up to the captain's personality, captain's
views. And because it's in such a contained environment,
you know, it's like Vegas. Nothing leaves the
station. So. Really, they can create whatever
environment they want. And if you're in, that's
great. If you're out, it's very uncomfortable
in terms of being part of the group, the crew.
And I've been in and I've been out and I've been
on the side and I've been in all those positions
in different times. But what I wouldn't do is
I wouldn't join in and be in. i wouldn't play
that game or in fact okay i'll tell you straight
out story there's one dude who just he's just
slow he's big strong dude but he just we couldn't
get him trained up in it and and and the crew
was just pounding this guy i mean saying stuff
to him that was like whoa man you better watch
it because you can get fired or something But,
um, so it's just, he and I down in the apparatus
Bay late one night and we're polishing diamond
plate or doing something. And I start getting,
I was like, man, you got to defend yourself,
man. You got to stand up for yourself. And I'm
almost yelling. I'm getting really kind of emotional
about it. Let's close on for about a half an
hour and give him this big pep talk. And I go
up to the locker room and the whole crew's waiting
for me. And I sit down in the corner and they're
all facing me and they're like, hey, we want
this guy out. You either start hammering like
we're doing and making this life difficult or,
you know, you're not part of us. And I said,
well, or however they put it. And I go, well,
I'm definitely not in. I'm not in with that.
And I knew that that was it. That was it for
me at that station. I had to go. So I did. And
other stuff started happening after that. where
it actually got dangerous on a few calls, where
I was left alone in no bueno situations. So,
yeah, I don't know how you fix this culture,
but I think it has to start with the way we're
thinking about the job and thinking about, you
know, when you... I guess when I was mentioning
about the dichotomy between a firefighter's mentality
and a paramedic's mentality, it is compassion.
It's things like that that you can't admit as
a firefighter, but what you need to have as a
paramedic, as somebody that's a healer, somebody
that's dealing with people. And I think that'll
help us deal with each other with compassion.
um love absolutely i want to just go to one more
area and then we'll round off and be mindful
of your time you mentioned psychedelics a little
while ago obviously you've been talking about
some of the you know childhood trauma and some
of the kind of organizational moral injury elements
of some of the environments that you worked in
What was the lowest place that you found yourself?
And then what have been some of the tools that
you've used to get yourself back into a good
place? Well, the lowest was a couple of years
after I'd left the fire department. I was in
a lot of back pain. I was taking pain pills.
And so I was addicted to them. I mean, I could
stop taking them and my body goes into it. Flipped
out mode. I think I was also, it was helping
me to just numb out. But I was like, okay, I
got to, that's the end. So I just cold turkey'd
it. And it was about the third day. I couldn't
sleep all night. And it was about, I don't know,
three or four in the morning. I went out and
just sat in my car. And the sun came up. And
I started driving. And I was just driving. I
didn't know. I had no destination. And I couldn't
see myself alive tomorrow. I had no plan to kill
myself or anything, but I could not see myself
alive tomorrow. And all of a sudden, my mom calls
me. And she hadn't called me in a couple of years.
I didn't even know if she was able to physically
dial the phone herself. She goes, what are you
doing? I said, driving. She said, where? I said,
nowhere, just driving. And she said, well, come
over to the house. And I said, no, not today.
Hung up, kept driving. She called me back. She
said, you're on your way over yet? I said, no,
I'm not coming. And then that went on a couple
of times. She called me maybe a third or fourth
time, and I just paused, and I was like, well,
she's 91. Either way, I need to say goodbye to
her. So I did. I said, okay, I'm coming. And
we got to her house, kissed her on the forehead,
went and sat by the chair by the window. I just
fucking lost it, just tears, just sobbing. I'd
never sobbed like that. I'd never cried like
that in my life. And it went on and on. And next
thing I know, she's got her hand on my shoulder.
And part of my mind's thinking, how did she even
get out of bed? And she stood there with me for
a long time. As I started to subside, she left
for a minute. And she came back and she grabbed
my hand and she motioned me to follow her. And
I fell into the bathroom. She had warm water
running. And she motioned me to... to rinse my
face and i did it was just like amazing and then
she gave me a towel pull out of my face and then
she led me out in the bathroom out in the dining
room or living around whatever this plate of
freshly cut cucumber and tomato with this olive
oil and lemon and i took my first bite of that
and the cucumber and it was like life just exploded
back into my mouth it um life yeah and that was
the beginning of the path upwards back to life
uh what was the second half of that question
that's okay so so that was obviously a pivotal
point what were some of the tools you started
accumulating to actually keep healing um i think
the big one was uh was my my sister and i had
been estranged for a long time building back
a relationship after my mom died she moved to
north carolina and i uh i went to visitor help
out or something and she's driving and i'm in
the passenger seat and she's you know looking
at me like oh look out for the truck and the
thing you know i'm seeing everything that's i've
seen already happening you know she's not driving
badly but she's not aware of anything that i
am i'm like look at this intersection where if
that guy turns left you know be aware of this
and she's like she looks at me she's like you
are up what's wrong with you i don't know so
get home A couple days go by, and she calls me
and says, show up at this address tomorrow at
2 o 'clock. Wear comfortable clothes. So I show
up, and this little guru guy, big beard, he's
Israeli, and I can barely understand him. Cool
guy. And he says, I'm going to give you some
magic mushrooms and MDMA and do some breathing,
and then we're going to do a meditation with
the sound of these instruments and stuff. I'm
like, all right, bring it. So we do this heavy
breathing, holotropic breathing, which kind of
completely alters your state already. And then
I don't know if I took this stuff before or thereafter,
but then you lie down and you go into the sound
meditation, and each instrument is its own thing.
Like you may start off with the buffalo drums.
This incredible frequency just, you know, it's
like it just goes through your body. It just
turns everything up. And then you'll have that
and then there'll be a two or three minute pause.
And then another instrument starts like the singing
bowls or chimes or something. Each one, the first
time that I did it, I... Each instrument was
a completely different experience and release
of trauma. And at this point, that's what was
happening in these. It was a release of trauma.
And at one point, in one instrument, I remember
my body almost in convulsions. Like if you were
in the worst turbulence. ever and you're holding
on for dear life that's that's what it felt like
my body's doing this but my mind is separate
and it's not my mind's not doing that's my body
doing it holding on holding on and this would
go on for a half hour 45 minutes and in one of
the times i saw this like a rolodex of faces
like somebody like cards or rolodex that you
know hundreds of them just one after another
and i didn't have any any connection to them
i didn't recognize any of the faces i just knew
that they were dead that this was death leaving
my body that's what i got out of that um and
at some point this would happen over and over
not the death but that thing with my body and
um at some point it would start to relax my hands
would start to relax my my body my breathing
would go back to normal and i'd be completely
relaxed with the same frequency that had stimulated
that trauma in the first place so it really was
like peeling layers of an onion each and you
know off with each instrument and the next day
I had developed all you know hyper what do you
call hyper vigilance I developed all these fears
one of them was flying being in a you know aluminum
tube at 35 I couldn't imagine that even though
i've flown hundreds of times all these fears
and coincidentally i had scheduled i had i bought
a flight to kauai i wanted to take my little
daughter and show her my favorite place on earth
and my plan was i'm just going to white knuckle
it i'll get there you know but next morning i
picked her up six o 'clock in the morning go
and get on this flight and i'm fine And I'm seeing
color where my whole world was just, you know,
tones of gray. And this weight that I didn't
even know that I had, like I was, I would have
to think really deeply whether it was worth it
for me to take the energy to get off the couch,
to go take a leak or get something to drink.
That's how much weight I was carrying. It felt
physical. And it was just gone the next day.
Gone, gone. So I ended up studying with the guy
that invented this whole thing, and he's working
with mushrooms and Johns Hopkins. He's a professor
at Harvard in ethnomusicology, and studied with
him deep into frequency, ancient sound, fractal
geometry, sacred geometry, how that all works
together. So I actually brought my son with me.
It was eight days, at least 12 hours a day, deep
into this stuff. That was the biggest thing.
And the second biggest thing is when I found
out that there is a problem with mental health
and first responders. And I started meeting some
of the other, it was like these cops and firemen
that had survived. their own suicide. Not, not
that they'd, but they'd been at the, that point
and they'd brought themselves back into life.
Um, and seeing, hearing their stories, hearing
the courage to tell their stories was mind blowing
to me. I mean, I was just in awe. I couldn't
believe what I was hearing with these people.
And it's like, okay, well these people are worth
saving. Um, and the biggest thing that I'm learning
now, and I think it's, one of the hardest things
for all of us first responders, what I'm finding
is to one, ask for help and to receive help,
like allow it in. And the next step beyond that
is to allow love in, you know, to allow other
people to love you. This is big sea changes for
me in my life. This is what I'm trying to be
open to. And, and I think that, You know, this
brotherhood that I am finally finding amongst
first responders who are like, man, I'm here.
I love you. Call me. You know, and we talk about
how much we love each other all the time. Love
you, brother. I got you, brother. Sister. And
that's how it should be. Because we're. You're
talking about a lot of some of the stuff you're
talking about with departments. And if they did
this, then they'd have all these great benefits,
less sick days, you know, less overtime, less
four tires, all that stuff, saving money and
everything. So why don't they do it? Because
we all say that, hey, if you did this, we make
great cases for why they should do it. But why
don't they don't? So why? That is just the reality
is that we've been talking about this stuff now
for a long time, but they don't implement it
as a whole. So why? I kind of got us onto a whole
different subject. So I guess the reason I brought
it up is that we can't expect the departments
to take care of us or give a shit. And therefore,
who can we rely on instead of tearing each other
to pieces? bits and pieces, you know, by supporting
each other and relying on each other and really
being real with each other would really change
the whole experience, I think. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, for people listening, if they want to learn
more about you, what you're doing now, reach
out, et cetera, where are the best places online?
Well, morganengland .com. With the U on England.
That's where you, the best place to kind of branch
out from. Morgan England on any social media
or Morgan England Music. Instagram. I'm not a
big social media person. You know, I'm really
working on launching this speaking career. I
didn't even ever intend to talk about mental
health. I didn't even know about it. It took
me eight months of people telling me, In my coaching,
to get this TEDx talk, I would tell little stories.
They're like, you have to talk about this. No
way, man. Not me. I'm not that guy. But one day,
I just woke up, and I'm like, let me just take
a look and see. And I put mental health and first
responders and the computer, and that's what
opened up this whole, you know, I had no idea
about any of it. And I lost several people that
were pretty close to me in the fire department
to suicide. And I never connected that with me
until I started seeing the statistics and meeting
and hearing people's stories and stuff like that.
So, yeah, so you can reach me at Morgan England
pretty much anywhere. Beautiful. Well, I want
to thank you again for trusting. you know this
show me with with the kind of depths that you've
got in this conversation i think that in itself
speaks volumes and it is courage i mean that's
really the whole point it's not courage to bury
things and push them down it's courage to you
know yeah Absolutely bury them temporarily when
you're on a call. Like I always say, don't start
queening out about the blood on a call. You got
to be in the flow state then. But, you know,
after being able to process this, be able to
talk about it and that courageous vulnerability
is everything. So I want to thank you so much
for being so generous with your time and coming
on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Yeah,
man. I'm really glad to be here. And I know that
as soon as we get off, I'm going to start thinking
about, oh, God, what I say here, what I say there.
So if there's anything, instead of me calling
you, you know, did I sound like a victim? Did
I this or that? Anything you'd say to ease my
mind so you don't have to get that call. Because
I know myself. No, I always say this is an organic
conversation. I almost never edit unless it's
something like, oh, God, I mentioned that person
I should have taken. And I can take that out.
But no, I mean, this is the way it should be.
And this is coming from your heart. So we should
leave it. All right, great. Well, I trust you.
And you're doing great work out there. So it's
my pleasure to be on here. And thank you for
finding value in what I'm bringing to the table.
Really appreciate that.