Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
veteran first responder, Air Force veteran, and
equine therapy facilitator, Tim Spradlin. Now,
in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics,
from his journey into the fire service, some
powerful career calls, his transition into law
enforcement, deployments to Iraq. his own powerful
mental health story, Save a Warrior, how horses
are a mirror to our soul, and so much more. Now,
before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
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Spradlin'. Enjoy. Well, Tim, I want to start
by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Jim
Bernica for basically facilitating our introduction
at the Brothers Helping Brothers Conference in
Exotic Beaver Creek, Ohio. And secondly, I want
to welcome you on to the Behind the Shield podcast
today. Thank you, James. I'm just happy to be
alive today. Yeah, you and me both, mate. All
right, let's start with the very first question
then. Where on planet Earth are we finding you
today? I am in southwest Ohio in Greene County
in Xenia Township. Beautiful. Is that where the
facility was located that we met? Was it in Xenia?
Yeah, that's the Greene County Fairgrounds Exposition
Center where Jimmy and Nick are currently doing
the Firefighter Behavioral Health Conference.
And I had been to their conference a few times
and knew these guys. And then they moved it from
a hotel to the fairgrounds. And Jim had been
out to my program. And he's like, hey, do you
think you could bring a horse since there's big
open grassy areas here at the exposition center?
I'm like, sure. So it's been really powerful,
I think. You spent a lot of time in the round
pen with my horse last year. I did. I did. But
this is the thing. When this is kind of your
echo chamber a little bit, you know, you have
to also step back, as I'm sure I'm preaching
to the choir and, you know, take a breath of
air yourself. And, you know, there was some of
the conversations and the film showings. And
I'm like, you know, I've seen the film. I had
the creator of the film on the show. I'm like,
I think I'm just going to go hang out with a
horse instead. So everyone else is out there.
And I got to speak to you and your wife and hang
out with your horse for a couple of hours in
the end. Yeah, it was. Yeah, and I was the same.
Instead of sitting in the conference, you wanted
to be out there, so I was going to be out there.
So it's all good. Yeah, I appreciate it. Well,
let's start at the very beginning of your timeline
then. So tell me where you were born and tell
me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings. I'm the
oldest of four combined. So family's from Kentucky
originally. My folks crossed the river for steel
mill jobs down in Portsmouth, Ohio. We didn't
have a lot. I mean, we had food and clothing,
but my dad was a workaholic and an alcoholic.
And when I was six years old, a whole bunch of
the uncles and my dad, everybody moved up here
to the Dayton area for General Motors jobs. And
I had family that farmed in the east part of
the county, but we never had any extra money.
Dad helped out. I learned I did a lot of farm
work. um and loved the outdoors loved the animal
husbandry my cousin had a horse and i wanted
a horse and my dad said you know if i can't feed
it and sell it and butcher it then i'm not going
to feed it now so um i was frustrated that i
didn't get to own a horse growing up but i always
loved them and then later was blessed a little
over 30 years ago with my second marriage to
find someone who loved horses also and And our
little trail ride piece of heaven turned into
something bigger than I ever imagined. When I
hear Portsmouth, Ohio, it reminds me of Sam Quinones,
who wrote a book called Dreamland. And it was
about the opioid crisis and Portsmouth being
one of the original hubs that was preyed upon
initially by legal pharmaceuticals, OxyContin,
and then the cartels after that. With you having
this kind of perspective of that, area as a young
boy and even your parents. One thing you hear
a lot about the metamorphosis of addiction and
mental health problems and alcoholism is also
loss of industry. You look at a lot of places
in Ohio, you look at Detroit. What did you witness
or even in conversations with your parents as
far as the impact of those loss of jobs on contributing
to addiction in that part of Ohio? I don't think
I ever talked about it with my parents while
they were alive. I just at occasional events
down there and my parents are both buried down
there. That's that's down home. I mean, for as
long as I remember, that's I never heard him
call our house here in town home. It was always
we're going down home. But watching my cousins
in the life. lives they live and the struggles
they've had versus me, I'm kind of glad I didn't
stay down there. I love the countryside, but
more experience on that with, in my public career,
I've finished my career with the state arson
bureau and arson with meth labs were exploding.
Arson was being used as a offensive tool against
rival crack houses. And just in general, in the
law enforcement community, we were dealing with
what were unfortunately termed pillbillies. There
was this massive operation of folks flying down
to Florida, where you're at, buying giant Ziploc
bags of Oxy. And they fly into Charleston, West
Virginia and drive across the river and start
distributing them throughout the hills of southeast
Ohio and eastern Kentucky. And it was a huge
criminal enterprise and a huge problem for us.
And it may still be. I'm kind of out of that
game right now. I had such a unique perspective,
you know, totally naive before this was even
being talked about. But when I moved to the U
.S., which was 2002, we were in Orlando for a
little while and then we went down south. And
my ex was working in a doctor's office in Broward
County. I remember her telling me, like, it's
so weird. You know, the doctor writes these prescriptions.
People fly from all over the country. They get
these prescriptions and then they leave again.
She got just a bad feeling about the whole thing.
And, you know, I ended up saying, well, let's
just, you know, don't work there anymore. We'll
find somewhere else. And then, you know, the
term pill mill becomes, you know, popular. And
all of a sudden they're shutting these places
down. But I mean, this, you know, kind of fast
forwarding to the mental health in the first
responder profession. OxyContin was deliberately,
you know, deliberately targeting the areas of
the country they knew were more desperate. They
were deliberately getting to the rural doctors
and driving their sales there. They were lying
about the efficacy and the safety of their product.
And this was FDA approved. Now, fast forward
to recently, we have MDMA -led psychotherapy,
which is just a tool. We've got psychedelics,
all these other ones as well, on top of what
we're going to talk about today, which the FDA
refused to allow. So I think it's a really important
story that the origin of this opioid crisis that
takes hundreds of thousands of Americans every
year, that came from a legally prescribed, fraudulently
advertised. FDA -approved product that was preying
upon places like Ohio. Yep. The folks down home
living up the holler, the mills and a lot of
the industry went away, often to other countries,
and towns kind of withered up and dried. I mean,
our entire greater extended family. completely
uprooted northern Kentucky and southern Ohio
and came to the Dayton area because that's where
the jobs were. And it's a shame to see what's
blighted down there now. There's still things
going on. But I don't get down there except once
a year to the cemeteries. Now, I really don't
have a close relationship with any of my cousins
or anybody that survives. But I still love the
country down there. It's just there's a lot of
ugly. going on that you don't get to see and
folks don't know about yeah well i think this
is what this conversation is going to be about
it's about healing you know if we had a national
healing you know these come these parts of the
country would just be that part of the country
again and be able to enjoy it but you know the
nucleus of a lot of crime is is addiction and
mental health so well anyway back to uh as i
got to be a teenager uh early teens um As I said,
Dad was an Army veteran. He was an alcoholic.
He was a workaholic. He grew up down in the hollers.
He was leading a mule, dragging logs to Grandpa's
sawmill by the time he was 10 years old. So he
didn't really have much fun in his life, and
I didn't want to be like him. My mom's brother
was a firefighter for the city of Portsmouth
full -time, and he... kind of became my hero.
And I wanted to do that. If I couldn't be a farmer,
I wanted to be a farmer and dad didn't own any
of the farms. So I started volunteering here
locally while I was still in high school. And
I wanted to test and go to work full time for
the city. You had to be 21 years old. And I'm
a high school senior and impatient. And one of
the other guys who volunteered at the fire station
was his full time job was he was the Air Force
recruiter in town. And so we're eight miles,
10 miles from Wright -Patterson Air Force Base.
And John took me over there and toured the fire
stations and said, you should go in, do four
years. You'll get great training, certifications.
And then when you come home, you'll be ahead
of the game for taking the test to go to work
for the city. So that's what I did. I listed
delayed entry before I graduated and went to
basic training in Texas and then the Crash Fire
Rescue School in Illinois. And ended up, luckily,
active duty in northern Indiana. So I was four
hours from home and started testing for fire
departments here. I wanted to work for my hometown.
Got offered the job and the Air Force let me
out six months early to come home and go to work.
That six months required a 12 -month commitment
in the Air Force Reserve. And that was such a
great side job from the fire department. That
went on for 26 years. So that's how I ended up
being kind of career military also. I love being
a firefighter. I just seem to absorb everything
to where it was something I was, you know, I
was never really athletic and I was a valedictorian,
but I had enough combination of smarts and physical
ability to be good at firefighter. I also had
to be a paramedic, struggled with that, got C's.
but it was a required part of the job. And I,
on my own, went out. In fact, sometimes I had
to take my own vacation time to become a fire
instructor and a fire investigator and got involved
with the county investigation team and working
alongside sheriff's detectives. About 15 years
in, by now I've changed departments. To take
a captain and deputy chief position, went to
the neighboring department where I now live.
As it grew, continued to go from volunteer to
part -time to full -time. And I used my reserve
GI Bill to go to the police academy, so I got
that badge also. So as one of my classmates told
me, and I've repeated this a lot, I had both
badges. I could eat a donut while I sleep in
the recliner. There we go. Multitasking. Kind
of an unusual skill set. And then I was also
in the reserve at Wright -Patterson and did that.
Eventually ended up combining the badges to go
to work for the state fire marshal's office in
arson investigation, police specializing in arson
bombings. And at that time, there was a lot of
meth labs blowing up because they were still
cooking with propane and stuff back then. And
so I did two deployments. My second deployment,
I got injured in a Humvee accident, screwed up
my neck. By that time, I was an E -8. I was a
first sergeant for a security police squadron.
And I was being mentored on the fast track to
become an E -9 chief master sergeant, the highest
rank you can get. And because of my injury, I
couldn't pass the fitness test and I had to retire.
And I hated that. It made me angry. I thought
it was a failure because I had all these people
promoting me, you know, what a great job I was
doing, blah, blah, blah. And then finally, I
got to completely retire. Well, we paid our little
farm off. My wife says, you don't have to work
full time if you don't want to. And the other
thing, going up, every promotion seemed like
a good idea at the time because you think you're
going to make a positive change and you're going
to do more. In some ways, I guess I did with
the troops and as academy instructor and that
kind of stuff. But I was never good at the political
side of being a chief. Being a chief locally
and then being a chief at the state level was
just miserable. The administration, the management
misplaced priorities. And I found myself angry
all the time. And so when she said I could retire,
I pulled the plug. I loved the work. I hated
the management. And I had some great people I
worked with. We had 26 of us for the entire state.
And so there I am. Retired from everything. And
I was sitting down here in my man cave and I
bought an Xbox. And I had secretly in 2010, 2011,
my youngest son as a soldier deployed to Afghanistan.
That triggered a whole bunch of stuff for me
from Iraq. So I went to mental health at Dayton
VA, but I lied to my boss and told him I was
getting physical therapy for my neck injury because
I didn't want to be disarmed and locked in the
office. And so that was the only time I'd ever
really gone to mental health. I got through that
year at the VA with individual and group and
it helped. But ultimately, it wasn't the solution
that I needed. And I was sitting here washing
my depression meds, which I kept a secret also,
down with beer. And Susan says, you're all retired.
Good for you. What are you going to do? And I
said, I'm waiting to die. I didn't know what
to do with myself or who I was, I guess, other
than a uniform and a title and a job. And I always
had three of those. So the only thing that got
me away from the Xbox and the numbing and isolation
was we had horses. We were trail riders. Just
a little hobby farm. Nothing special. No registered
champions or showing or any of that stuff. And
I had to go take care of the horses. And everything
I did with the horses was a fight. They were
a pain in the butt. They were a -holes. I struggled
with everything I did there. Nothing's any fun,
especially trail rides. Trail rides are no fun
because the horse is always acting up. And amazingly,
after owning horses for more than 20 years, I
found out I didn't understand horses. And I call
this a God wink because faith was a big part
of this also. I had lost my faith, especially
over incidents with dead children out on the
street. I got angry at God and tried to walk
away for a while. But I opened a VFW magazine
one day that came in the mail, and there's an
article about this model of equine -assisted
psychotherapy, using horses as an adjunct to
mental health counseling. And I'm like, wow.
And I found this program east of Columbus, and
I went there, and I'm like, holy smokes, the
horses aren't the problem, it's me. I truly didn't
understand their psyche and their nature. And
instead of trying to control horses, we've learned
to connect with horses. And as I started getting
well, I realized I could probably do this. And
so we started our little nonprofit. My wife,
God bless her, she does all the financial management.
And she just finished the annual tax fundraising
reporting to the Secretary of State or the county
auditor, whoever it goes to. I couldn't do it
without her because I'm not smart enough to do
that kind of stuff. I'm really good with a manure
fork, though. And so we just started seeing folks
here at home. We do not charge anything for it
because I'm blessed. I have a state retirement
plus a military pension and military health care.
And she's a retired RN. So we don't charge. All
donations go to the program expenses. Insurance
is expensive because insurance companies think.
Horses bite and kick and kill people every day.
And it hasn't been my experience, but it just
continued to grow and grow. And then I was invited
to start facilitating veterans over in Licking
County where I had originally gone. And so I
would travel over there and then eventually Sable
Warrior came to Ohio. I was invited to get involved
with them. Then a couple other farms, like the
farm I went to this morning. So these different
spaces with different horses, but it's always
the same with the horse because they're all outstanding
therapists by nature. And so I get to see that.
And I've only a couple of horses in 11 years
in all these different places that really didn't
do well with this model of being on the ground
and moving freely. We're not riding. And you're
learning about yourself through one -on -one
interaction with the horse, as you did in the
round pen out at the fairgrounds. And that's
all about their nature. But Sable Warrior had
a five -day curriculum at the time, and a full
day of that was equine experience. And they moved
into Licking County and reached out and contacted
the farm over there. It's called PBJ, about hosting
that. And Brad Gallop, I'm sure you know Brad.
was doing the equine facilitator role out in
California. And I was invited to attend the first
cohort in Ohio as a so -called witness. And Adam
Carr said, he said, I want you to attend as a
witness. I said, so I just sit in the back and
watch. He goes, no, you sit with everybody else
and pretend you need it. And he lied to me. We
all need it. And it was amazing. Two things that
just blew me away that I still and I just talked
about this this morning with my veterans group
is first the ACEs and understanding that and
then going back through ancestry, finding my
birth father's family, finding out about my first
five years, all the craziness that happened.
that I didn't even know was still in there affecting
my adult life. And then warrior meditation. As
I said, I'm a hillbilly from down home, and I
live five miles from a quaint little village
called Yellow Springs, Ohio, which is known for
its kind of... uh 60s vibe and uh you know people
joke about the the hippies in yellow springs
and uh it's a beautiful little town but your
meditation was something they do not something
this redneck does and now now i teach warrior
meditation in the arena and lawn chairs with
horses loose and it's amazing to watch how the
horses react to our energy when it changes and
so now i'm blessed to be alcohol free medication
free And that includes over 20 years of high
blood pressure medication, which I think after
about three months of warrior meditation, I started
feeling dizzy. And my wife, the nurse, starts
checking. And she thought I took too much medication
because my blood pressure was so low. And I said,
nope. So with the doctor's approval, weaned off
of that also. And then it just, again, it kept
me. kept growing and as i'm as busy as i want
to be and it's been a blessing to uh horses have
led us to touch a lot of lives i don't know if
you got it go ahead yeah no no i was gonna say
so you mentioned saver warrior and i always credit
jake clark the founder for educating me on the
Impact of childhood trauma, not only on us in
uniform, but sending us into uniform in the first
place. And if my memory serves me right, we collectively
military first responders on average have aces
of six and so do incarcerated people. So you've
got these people and then there's a crossroads
there. I think it's like, you know, the Kaiser
Permanente level was if you score higher than
four, you have adult child. alcoholic dysfunction,
family kind of childhood trauma. And the last
I remember they published, the average for Sable
Warrior was 6 .9. Yeah. And then the other factors
there and then understanding that and then going
through the 12 -step ACOA program and healing
all that, you heal that wound under the adult
wound and it makes things a lot easier. understanding
that all that's stuck in there and little pieces
of it uh i'm pretty sure i was a workaholic adrenaline
junkie overachiever because i'm trying to prove
to my birth father who abandoned me that i shouldn't
have been abandoned somewhere psychologically
i talked to one of my therapist partners about
that that this need to be All the uniform and
the titles and the badges and baubles. I used
a reserve GI Bill. I got three college degrees.
Didn't need them, but by gosh, I'm going to put
something else on the wall. And I'm just grateful
that, number one, praise God that I survived
a lot of dumb stuff. And then my wife and family
supported me while I was out there trying to
be Captain America. And the horses have just
been amazing. Well, I think when you hear this,
especially, you know, one or both parents aren't
there anymore or one or both parents, you know,
fell into addiction. You hear this over and over
again. Why wasn't I enough for that parent to
be present, that parent to put the bottle down,
whatever it was? And then we're chasing that.
What I think is interesting now as we sit here,
I've been doing this show for nine years now.
And so there's been this incredible education
and all these lived experiences. And you see
the Venn diagram just overlaps so, so strongly.
Almost every single person that I've had on the
show has had, I would argue, significant childhood
trauma, whether that's just abandonment, whether
that's sexual abuse, whatever it is, which is
so much more prevalent than I realized. But understanding
that that then sends a lot of us into uniform.
I really feel like we need to have a conversation
at the front door saying, hey, you know, a lot
of us that are here, this is what drove us here.
And that doesn't have to be a fracture in your
foundation, but it will be if you just bury it
down and don't talk about it. But if we start
addressing that right from day one and, you know,
the same as we're going to do PT for your body,
we're going to do PT for your mind and we'll
have counseling sessions. Or, I mean, if they're
really proactive, you know, equine therapy and,
you know, whatever else is out there. Now you're
actually turning those fractures into resilience,
into strength. And I feel like that would be
the kind of 2026 turning the page in the mental
health from. We keep dying very, very sad story
to, well, let's forge performance. And if we
acknowledge that there is going to be that element,
most likely in our formative years, we can address
it at the front door and then we can turn it
into strength. And now we're more empathetic
and more resilient than we were. And you don't
have that proverbial bucket already half full
anymore. You've been able to empty a lot of it
and give you the capacity to deal with what we're
going to have to see and do in our profession.
That's a great way to look at it, and I kind
of relate to it. Thanks to a couple of pastor
mentors, I got certified as a chaplain, mainly
for crisis intervention, critical incident stress
stuff. And a few years ago, our chaplain retired,
and the chief reached out to my fire department,
where I used to be chief, asked me if I would
come back and serve as chaplain. It's a volunteer
role. I go to emergencies and... minister of
the family of a death or I help them get Red
Cross housing from a fire. But my most important
mission, as I told the chief, is I'm having these
open, honest talks around the kitchen table about
what we're talking about now. If you don't want,
you know, if you do all this dysfunctional stuff,
trying to be the rescuer that you needed as a
child, then you're just going to end up miserable.
And I don't want to see people. miserable like
a lot of people and myself i've seen and so that's
we've created this you know not every department's
doing this but we got to change the culture we
got to let our people be human because we start
off by telling the little boys they can't cry
and then we put everybody in a career field where
you're supposed to be tough suck it up and pretend
it didn't happen and that just builds up and
so the more we can openly heal that more than
that i'd never heard of earlier in my career
that you would take a crew out of service and
even send them home after a critical incident.
I remember in paramedic school in 1983, the only
discussion of any critical incidents, and I think
the example was, what if you have a bad call
and a dead child? The instructor literally said,
go back and wash and wax your trucks. You'll
feel better. I hate doing it any time. That would
make me feel worse regardless. And, of course,
there was no employee assistance program. There
was no referrals to mental health. It was that
thing you never talk about, never speak of. You
know, I had fatal fire of a two -year -old when
my youngest son was two, and we went back and
sat around the table, and basically after we
got everything cleaned up and loaded, it was,
okay, who's cooking, what's for lunch? And that
was the first, and we talk in the critical incident
model, the first, the worst, and the most recent.
that's the first I can put my finger on that
really shook me and stayed with me for years
that I couldn't understand and never got to heal.
So I think it's great that we're slowly changing
that culture and making it okay to be, as I always
say to my folks, you need... you need physical
fitness obviously we the culture started to change
in that there in the 90s finally because we didn't
even talk about that in the 70s and 80s you need
mental uh health and indeed spiritual wellness
uh whatever your higher power is that controls
things that you can't control otherwise you stay
angry all the time that you're not in control
and um we we talk about those three things all
the time and uh and then um continuing to work
you know and i Here at Finally Home Farm, we
strictly work with veterans and first responders
because that's my wheelhouse. I'm blessed I got
this other local program. I had an active reservist
call me the other day but wanted some help for
his 12 -year -old daughter. Well, I'm not comfortable
in that environment because I'm certified in
peer support for the adult warrior experience,
but not in that. So I sent him to this other
farm where they do specialize in working with
children and horses. And the other key thing
about this model is it's in partnership with
mental health professionals and clinicians. The
program I'm certified by is called EGALA, the
Equine Assisted Growth and Learning Association.
And it was started about 25 years ago, I think
26 years ago. These were mental health professionals
who also owned horses, who understood their psyche
and developed this model of how to use them in
moving in a space with a human. to learn about
yourself. And that's using the natural psyche
of the horse. And so in a perfect world, the
mental health provider is in the arena with us.
If the mental health partners can't be there,
then we do equine assisted learning. One of the
things I almost insist, anybody that comes to
me first and they don't have a therapist, I'll
refer them either to the vet center, the VA,
or I have two therapists in the community that
really specialize in first responder populations.
I said, I want to do this in partnership. There's
no miracles. There's no magic pill. And I'm not
the lone ranger here. You need something that
comes out this week in the barn. I want you to
have that clinician to sit down in the office
and process it with, and we'll work back and
forth together. But these other two therapists
actually tend to send people to me to work together.
uh one of them she'll literally because she knows
how we are she's a former fire medic her husband's
a police officer uh when she wants to refer someone
she'll call me from the office with them sitting
there and say make the first appointment so uh
next week i'm not bugging you for three weeks
and we've had a great relationship and and i
think we've done a lot of good for a lot of uh
and uh jim bernick is one of those people that
i've met in that journey with all those people
there and um Then the VA has been a tougher nut
to crack. Columbus VA has been very open. Dayton
VA, not so much. It all depends on who the medical
director is. Wright -Patterson Hospital is no
man's land, so it's not a VA issue. I know a
lot of military veterans get a grievance with
the VA. I'm personally a happy customer, and
any service I've needed from them has been fine
from a reserve side of my career. but right right
pad hospital won't even talk to me at least i
got some meetings at dayton va and i've developed
partnerships with the adaptive sports office
and the whole health office and the peer support
office mental health just says you know we don't
recognize alternative therapies the great thing
is though the va system has these uh field places
called vet centers which do counseling only,
no diagnosis or medication prescriptions and
stuff. And we have one of those in our area also.
And they are all in. They've been sending people
to me. They've been coming out themselves. And
next month, we're going to be starting a weekly
group that they're going to bring out of veterans,
bring them out to the barn for an equine learning
experience. And so that's been a, like I said,
nothing I'm doing was planned. Little things
keep happening. It's amazing. What's really sad
is with the veterans that have been on here,
I would say at least 90 % have the same story.
I went in there, they prescribed me meds and
it didn't help or it made it worse. And so you
think if that was, you know, the overarching.
you know, feedback that they're getting. And
again, in your exact example, my wife just did
a residency or an externship, excuse me, at the
VAs in Gainesville and the villages here as an
optometrist. And she said both of them were phenomenal.
So when it comes to eye care, their veterans
are getting great, great service. But I think
it's not the practitioners, but the system that
a lot of these VA mental health groups are working
under, you know, that we know now, and I've learned
this as a complete, you know. white belt, if
you like, that. And so one of my guests recently,
Dave Rabin, Dr. Dave Rabin, just articulated
it perfectly. He said, psych meds, you know,
most psych meds, you know, anxiety, depression,
et cetera, are merely just to stabilize the person
until you can get the help that they need. But
that's not how we view it in America. It's not
how it's sold to us in America. We have bloody
television commercials all the time, you know,
telling us about this. And then again, back to
OxyContin, same thing, this pressure sales. But
it's merely just to get you to a point where
you can then figure out your talk therapy, your
equine therapy, maybe even a psilocybin or Ibogaine
experience or Save a Warrior or whatever your
unique toolbox is. So then you're getting back
to where you get to the nucleus of the thing
because obviously pills aren't going to help
you figure out that you're struggling with abandonment
issues after your parent left when you were tiny.
An immigrant from across the pond who just started
a podcast can figure this stuff out through just
listening to people. Why are our veterans in
the VA system still having the same problem?
And, you know, our civilians too. Most people
think that the only answer is a therapist and
drugs. That's it. When there are so many more
that then might open the door and then make your
therapist a lot more effective. But the drugs,
if they were viewed just as a tourniquet, I'm
bleeding to death. I put a tourniquet on my leg.
okay, I still need to go get surgery and physical
therapy and wound care, but the tourniquet at
least is keeping me alive. If we could just view
the drugs as that, then it would change the philosophy
in the VA because they're like, okay, well, that's
not a solution, is it? So then what other solutions
can we use after we stabilize our veterans who
are struggling so then we can get them off these
pills? And I had a Swedish psychiatrist saying
in Sweden, they're not allowed to prescribe them
longer than six months, period. So you've got
six months to figure out modalities that will
get people weaned off. I like that. I did some
time on our local, every county in Ohio has a
service office for veterans. It's all staffed
by veterans. There's a five -member board of
veterans. And I served 13 years on that, and
I learned a lot. And the permanence of these
disability ratings, and I don't begrudge anybody
that has issues that affect their life. But it
seemed almost too easy. And when I was diagnosed
in 2010 with PTSD, the first thing they did is
say, do you want to file for disability? I'm
like, no, I was working full time in state law
enforcement and I don't even want anybody to
know I'm here. And it doesn't have to be permanent.
I don't believe in the D anymore. It's not a
disorder. Post -traumatic stress growth. and
recovery. It's an injury. It's a moral injury,
an emotional wound that can be healed. And we
meet so many veterans. I remember a guy at Save
a Warrior that I was back as a shepherd. When
we started talking about being totally at peace
and weaning off all medications, and he goes,
well, I might lose my disability rating. I'm
100 % service -connected, PTSD, unemployable.
And I remember Jake Clark looked at him. He says,
you know, You can trade a check every month.
If that's what you want, you want a check to
be disabled the rest of your life every month,
then that's the path you choose. But that's not
life. Say, I can't, I can't, I can't. I get paid
not to. And so I encourage everyone, pray for
everyone that comes to see me, a veteran I'm
working with right now. I said, just consider
the fact that you could go back to work. You
could have purpose, a little money in your pocket
and experience out there. And maybe they do reduce
the disability rating a little bit. But obviously,
the way you're living right now isn't working
because you're in pain still. The meds aren't
working. They're simply masking symptoms. Those
are supposed to be temporary, not a lifelong
thing. And I don't know if it's because I don't
think they're bad people, but are they overwhelmed
with too many veterans or they're just stuck?
As I've said, a medical director at the VA says,
nope, we don't believe in alternatives. They
went to school for a lot of years to get a big
diploma on the wall that tells them they know
everything. And some old fat man with a horse
can do something? Wait a minute. And I actually
had someone. from the VA, walked past my table,
a very high person in our local VA, walked past
my table at a resource fair, and one of the employees
who knew me was standing there talking and said,
hey, come here, look at this. And with simply
a look over her shoulder, she says, no, that's
a lawsuit waiting to happen. She wouldn't even
talk to me because the stigma. All firefighters
are lazy. All cops are fat and eat donuts. All
veterans are crazy and violent. All horses bite
and kick. None of the above. And in fact, in
11 years of doing this at four different farms
with probably 20 total different horses, only
once did I see even a nip with teeth that left
a bruise on a guy's arm during a stable warrior
cohort. And he got a huge metaphor message out
of that. He was walking around showing people,
hey, the horse told me this. And I tell people
all the time, the horse's natural psyche, first
of all, they're not big dogs. And people are
so familiar with dogs. They're a prey animal,
whereas a dog is a predator. And as prey animals,
they've been hunted and killed by everything
on earth through history, including man. Yet
they don't walk around in fear. Are they aware
of their surroundings? Absolutely. But you'd
think if everything's trying to kill you, you'd
walk around paranoid looking over your shoulder.
And horses don't do that. They live totally in
the moment. They have a great memory, but they
don't carry the pain and the emotions from the
past like we do. And that's a great description
I heard that I repeat all the time. Trauma is
the memory with the emotions still attached.
And if we don't heal the emotions, and of course
we know that's through lots of tears, then we're
just going to keep feeling it. And horses also
don't worry about the future. They don't try
to reach out and control tomorrow. And then the
other key thing we learn from them is they are
a herd animal. They are hardwired to be connected.
That's why that experience between you and the
horse and that round pen with you as the only
other being in there, that's how it works. If
the horse feels safe with your energy, And that's
how they communicate with energy. They radiate
it. They receive it. Feels good about that. It's
going to move in and want to be close to you.
If it moves away, that's not judgmental. That's
not ego. That's a message to me. And that's what
my horses were telling me before I got well.
We don't feel safe with you. We're going to move
over here because you're radiating negative energy.
And that's how the therapy model works. It's
all about learning. And then when you reach that,
that you get out of your head into your heart
and you change your energy and you find yourself
with this thousand pound animal that's standing
there relaxed with his head down and you're hugging
it. It's just really, it's the most powerful
connection you'll ever have with another being.
And there's no transaction there. That horse
wants nothing from you except to be connected.
And that's hard to find in life with humans.
And so that's how the learning happens through
all these different exercises on the ground,
moving, doing, getting feedback from the horse.
I used to have a client that she got very attached
to one particular horse. And when I brought a
different horse in one week, she got very upset.
And I said, you know, this isn't about the horse.
Well, it is for me. I'm only here because of
the horse. I said, no, it's about you and what
you can learn from any horse because all horses
can do this. And my friends at PBJ, actually,
they do a lot of work with, they're a full -time
mental health on a horse farm. They do a lot
of work with children. They use donkeys, which
have that same equine psyche of mindfulness,
presence, connection, communication, nonverbal
communication. And so it never gets old. That's
what's fun. And I've seen a couple of miracles.
You know good old Larry at Save a Warrior. I
don't know. I only know the Save a Warrior. It's
Matt Fierenzer. I went to Anaheim. I was a firefighter
with him. Obviously, Jim has gone through, Jake.
But I never actually went through it myself,
so I don't know some of the other guys there.
I just used the second cohort in Ohio in which
I was facilitating the XY experience, and that
was 058, and that was Larry Turner. And Larry,
the transformation from him then to him now is
just miraculous. And he had a big turn in the
round pen with the horse, which then he then
got upset with tears in his eyes and called me
a BS artist and accused me of teaching the horse
stupid partying tricks. Yeah. And I love that
guy. And it's just amazing to have met him then
and now. what he's doing with Sable Warrior as
an employee and facilitator with them. And so
it's just a piece of it. In combination with
a lot of reading, that's the other thing Sable
Warrior exposed me to is the books I would never
have read if I hadn't been exposed to that and
learning the owner's manual for this CPU between
my ears. And then the... Professional mental
health and with a clinician that's open enough
to try something non -traditional in whatever
those areas are. I'm not as familiar with the
ones that you're working on, but equine is just
a piece that may or may not. Some people don't
get it. Most of them do. And we've had a lot
of positive feedback. We've blessed probably
in total over a thousand warriors we've touched
in the past 11 years. I encourage anyone out
there to look for an equine -assisted therapy
place that's doing the ground model mental health
adjunct. I mean, riding a horse is a different
experience. There's got to be some transaction
there, and there's got to be some control there.
And you've got to do all this groundwork before
you ever get in a saddle. So it's a different
kind of therapeutic feeling, but the ground -based
free association can be really powerful. I've
said this on here a few times because I think
it's an important conversation as well. For everyone
who struggled, there's this kind of story of
more often than not, like I said, childhood trauma
and then all the compounding things, sleep deprivation,
the trauma we see at work, organizational betrayal,
which I want to circle around with you on that
as well. So many people that come on here have
been sitting there with that pistol, about to
take a one -way dive, whatever their mode of
self -execution is going to be. And I've always
said, why not me? I am no better a person than
any of these men and women I've had on the show
that got to that deepest point or deep in addiction.
And the only answer I have is when I reflect
back, and I had some traumatic stuff happen when
I was young. I almost died in a house fire when
I was four. A wall collapsed and crushed every
car in the car park. And my dad managed to just
drive away. Otherwise, we would have been killed
there. My parents' divorce was pretty horrific.
So there was some things. But I grew up on a
farm. My dad was an equine veterinary surgeon.
So I grew up around horses. We had real food.
We were lambing. We were baling hay and all the
things. So I realized that infused in all this
trauma was also a lot of healing modalities.
And now, fast forward. 50 years later, yeah,
we're understanding. But then it was just my
life. So I was extremely lucky. That's all it
was. I just won this genetic lottery where I
grew up on this place where for all the bad stuff
that happened, there were these good things woven
in. But horses are one of them. I mean, we didn't
have our own horse. So kind of to your point.
Whoever was boarding horses, those are the ones
that we would ride. And some were complete lunatics
that almost killed me. And some, you know, were
beautifully calm. But I was having to muck out
stables and lead them and wash them. And so a
lot of, as you're saying, that groundwork, being
in the fields with them. And so I saw that, you
know, in my own childhood. And then I had, I
think we talked about this, I had Buck Branneman
on about three or four years ago. And his story,
I mean, super traumatic childhood. And that was
what was saved him was the horses. And now he
teaches other people. And as he said, to your
point, he's not training horses, he's training
people, you know, and they're, you know, the
mirror to the soul, as he says. So I can testify
from my own childhood. And then, you know, having
this most recent experience with was it what
was the name of the horse? I had Doc out there.
Doc, that's right. Doc. So just a couple of hours
with Doc. I mean, I felt like I was that little
kid on the farm again. So I can't emphasize enough
how important it is for people if they've never
tried this before to find somewhere near them
and add this to their kind of mental health toolbox.
Yeah, outdoors. I always loved being outdoors.
I ran a paper out every day so I could pay my
way through scouting and buy my uniforms and
stuff. I always loved the farm work and working
with the animals. I call it barn therapy. My
little piece of heaven here. I'm out there every
day. In fact, I'll change clothes and be out
there this afternoon with all the routine chores,
the taking care. And then trail rides now are
just bonus because just having these animals
as part of the family every day. uh, work that
it takes to take care of them is really not work.
It's so peaceful and, and just kind of basic
and, uh, love having the grandkids out here and,
you know, whatever device you brought with you,
leave it in the car, leave it in the house. We're
going to go get dirty. We're going to feed some
horses. We're going to move some hay bales. We're
going to, uh, get the tractor out. If you want
to, uh, do those kinds of things. I loved that
growing up. I'd rather be out there than it would
be at home. And, uh, and so now I get to, uh,
to share that, that, uh, You mentioned something
there about, oh, now I've forgotten. Sorry. Oh,
I know what it is. As I'm getting older also,
I'm working, I'm taking a beginning beekeeper
class right now. Something else to putter with
out here and to be outdoors. I don't watch, I
hate big pharma and the commercials. They are
shoving that stuff down our throat. And I imagine
every time I see one of those, people are picking
up their phones and saying, I want to talk about
this drug I just saw on TV. And none of that's
really good for us. So I just don't watch it.
I record old movies, especially westerns or war
movies. Otherwise, I read a lot and avoid that
because I think it's just a huge racket that
people are making. crazy money at, at the expense
of people really living peaceful, healthy lives.
Um, also really paying attention to the, uh,
processed foods and that, that kind of stuff,
trying to eat healthier and, and, uh, and, uh,
teach the, uh, grandkids. You know, you can't
go back. I've had a great conversation with my,
my sons and my stepkids and, uh, I can't change
not being the best father, but I can be a better
grandfather. And especially when one of the little
boys is falling out here and skinning their knee
in the gravel, pick them up and let them cry
and tell them it's okay to cry. Caught my sons
a couple of times. Knock it off. Shake it off.
You're not bleeding. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
Let's change this here so that they don't end
up like us. I have a son who's a retired Army,
one who's a disabled. uh firefighter who's uh
and uh then my stepson's a retired police officer
and all of them had to retire early through injuries
and stuff like that and that's uh i know how
much they struggle and i know some of that's
my responsibility because i the way i raised
them all i can do is make amends ask forgiveness
and and again be a better grandpa i wrote a book
last year and The main theme is, I mean, it's
set in a modern day firefighter. You're seeing
the world through his eyes and, you know, what
our job is like, what the world looks like through
our eyes. But I really want to infuse generational
trauma and not against the sad story with violins.
But once you realize what this is and once you
see behind you these dominoes that have fallen
onto you even. And you have the courage to say,
I'm not going to let this pass on my kids or,
you know, if it's later in life in my grandkids.
I think that's such a beautiful concept that
we are empowered to stop these dominoes from
continuing to fall. And then even because I think
I think when you have that conversation, you're
straddling. Like, of course, there's some trauma
in my child. You know, I'm having this conversation
now. My sons are my stepson's 24. My son is 18.
So. You know, through my divorce, for example,
there's, there's some of that, but I think you
can then kind of wind it back from that end to
once you've done the healing, you can, you know,
own your things, you can apologize, you can,
you know, give them the tools to start healing
their own trauma from from their childhood. So
I think it's a it's a It's a beautiful conversation
because it really does give people hope and it
empowers them to realize that you can change
and you can reverse epigenetics. Just because
your father was alcoholic doesn't mean that you
have to be an alcoholic. The way they say it's
genetic, that can be turned around. It can be
genetic not to be an alcoholic. So I think it's
really powerful for our generation to have the
courage to say, I'm not just going to heal for
me. I'm going to heal. for my kids and my grandkids
and my great grandkids, because if I can stop
these dominoes, they get to kind of, you know,
start almost from scratch again and forge a brand
new path without all this accumulated trauma
that they've got on their shoulders. Well, and
that's a great lesson that Save a Warrior drives
home that I still share. The only person I can
heal is me. And the best thing I can do for the
people I care about in my life is heal me. I
can't fix them, but I can fix me. And in hope.
that at some point, none of my three sons have
ever come out for any work with the horses. And
I don't ask them to. I simply say, I'm here if
you need me. They know what I do. They know how
much experience I have with it. But when they're
ready, if they need my help, they'll be there.
I don't try to fix them. It's hard. It's hard
to watch them struggle. It's something I can't
control, so I just got to pray about it and let
it go and just be true to my word. I'm here if
you need me. So maybe they will someday. I want
them to find the peace. Another thing I heard
that I repeat all the time is, do you want to
be happy or do you want peace? Because I'm not
going to be happy all the time, but I can be
at peace with the things I'm not happy with because
most of those are things I can't change. And
if I can't change them, then stop being upset
about them and just let it go and be at peace.
So I'm at peace. That's a blessing. You talked
about the disability mindset earlier and talking
about your sons and having that those injuries
or disability as they progressed out of the first
responder careers. I see the same issue. in our
professions than you were just talking about
in the military profession. And I've seen it
with my own friends. They get hurt. They're on
disability. And they're literally terrified that
someone's going to be in a bush taking a picture
of them. So they just don't do anything until
it's all gone through. Because they've got a
bona fide, legitimate injury. They had surgery.
But it completely discourages that healing conversation.
Now, I'm not saying, let me preface this, I'm
not saying that my injury was the same as a couple
of these other guys, but I tore three ligaments
in my back about 10 years ago and just had a
different way of looking at it. I'm like, well,
this was mechanic trauma that did this, so pills
and potions aren't going to fix it. So I'm going
to just figure out what... imbalance led to this
in the first place how can i address that how
can i strengthen everything and then get back
without any of these surgeries or at least at
least rule that out so you know that way if surgery
is the only thing i've tried everything else
first And I was able to do it. There's a great
practice called foundation training that was
a real game changer. So good that I ended up
getting certified and teaching my fire department.
It was phenomenal. But then I paid out of pocket
for chiropractor. I was in the gym every single
day, you know, from a PVC pipe back up to a barbell
and beyond. But that's because I believed that
I was going to go back to work and I wasn't chasing
this disability. But, you know, whether it's
the physical health or the mental health. That
is a kind of carrot and the stick for a lot of
our people in uniform. And as you said, now you're
out and you've got this payment coming in. But
what is your life's purpose now if you've had
all that taken away? So you touched on this,
and I agree with this 100 % in the first responder
profession. You might initially not be able to
work as a firefighter anymore, and that's okay.
But then there needs to be an on -ramp again
of like, all right, well. What can I get my physicality
back up to? All right, now I'm up to 75%. So
I can't do firefighting anymore. But could I
be an arson investigator? Or could I, you know,
do something completely different? Teach swimming
or, you know, whatever, yoga instructor, whatever
the thing is. But getting you back out there,
you know, changing your identity, but still having
a purpose. Because I find that disability mindset.
Apart from obviously when someone's just so badly
wounded that there's no other option, but everyone
else, these arguably smaller disabilities, I
feel like the conversation needs to be, well,
how can we get you as close to how you were before
as we can? You're not going to be the same person
that you were, but how close can we get you?
And then what doors does that open up for you
to then forge another path? I relate the physical
injuries to the mental injuries all the time
with my young people. These are veterans and
first responders. So I ask you, did you ever
sprain an ankle? Well, yeah. And what did you
do? Well, I went to the doctor. Yeah, you did
Moturn ice elevation physical therapy, and then
eventually it's fine now. Mental wound or moral
injury is the same thing. temporarily, you need
medication, you need therapy, you need exercises
that help you heal that. But it's not a lifelong
sentence that displaces enjoying life and having
a purpose. I mean, that's where I'm at with this.
I found a purpose. I don't make any money. I
don't want to. I get paid in tears and smiles.
But you got to do something. And I got a couple
of friends, the highest level of disability retirement
for Ohio is police and fire pension system says,
you may not do anything. You can't make a dime
if you get this retirement for mental health.
And that's hard. I'm like, wait a minute, what
are you supposed to do with the rest of your
life? And then they start restricting. And like
you said, people are hiding in the bushes, taking
pictures of them. If you can go water skiing,
you should be back to work, et cetera. And everybody's
different. But to just accept this, your life
is over. I'm just going to sit here and play
Xbox and drink beer and be angry and get a check
for it every month. And that's a shame to see
people do that because there's so much more to
see and do out in the world. Speaking of moral
injury, again, progressing through this amazing
education that I've had, one of the two, I would
say, really under -discussed elements of mental
health. you know, especially in our profession.
One is sleep deprivation, which I bang that drum
all the time because, you know, we will have
these departments that will refuse to look at
their staffing, but then they'll bring in a counselor.
It's like, well, yeah, it's like putting a bandaid
on a gunshot wound. Are you going to get the
bullet out or are you just going to stop the
bleeding? But the other one is organizational
betrayal. That's a huge moral injury because
this is a tribe that you have sworn to protect
that you even said you would die for. Who then,
you know, in many, you know, incidences, these
people that are supposed to be kind of chiefs
of the tribe are then turning the back on the
people that are, you know, literally risking
their lives for them. Talk to me about that impact,
as you alluded to in the awesome position on
your own personal life. And then what are you
seeing kind of nationally as far as, you know,
toxic culture, poor leadership and the mental
health of our first responders? It's well, my
experience locally. So I felt organizational
betrayal from the people I worked with. I left
the city fire department and moved to the township
in a fit of anger at the fire chief, who, God
bless him, because he's gone now, but I didn't
understand how sick he was as an alcoholic and
the stuff he had going on. But I also know that
was my fault because my amygdala was just raging
and it's hijacked my brain. And I said, angry
and quit and moved to the township fire department
for more responsibility with less pay. And then
eventually when I become the fire chief there,
you know, one time changed in an election and
I've got three politicians that I work for. uh
one's a retired volunteer one's a retired career
guy and both of them want to micromanage me and
you know literally the the rage comes out it
was just a constant battle of their priorities
weren't the same as our priorities and wanting
to provide good service to the people who call
us for help to the point literally i volunteered
for another tour in iraq to go on active duty
and to get away from that and when i came back
i was offered the job at the state level and
i took that nice down Found the same thing. I'm
still working for politicians with different
priorities. And I felt betrayed that here's this
mission. It's in the code what we're supposed
to do. Yet doing it is a constant fight. Every
purchase, every equipment need, every manpower
need is a struggle to get what we need to do
the mission we're mandated to do. Sometimes the
toxicity leaks down to the leadership level and
chiefs. And there's a couple of departments in
this area that I've worked with folks that it's
really a shame to see how they've been treated
by their command staff when they have an emotional
wound. And these are all 20 plus year guys. And
some of them are within a year of retirement.
And that bucket has just ran over and they're
not sleeping. And they're having panic attacks
when they go on calls. That's where I was at.
And I used a lot of sick leave that last year.
I was working here locally just because I shouldn't
go to work when I'm in this shape. And that was
not only misunderstood, it was criticized. And
it still is in some places. So on one hand, I've
got my chief and the chief at the city now here.
We're kind of joined at the hip with city and
township are very open and progressive to. mental
health and wellness and uh and changing that
culture but you know 15 miles west of here i
can point a fire department that's uh struggling
with their retention and struggling because their
leadership is just the opposite you you break
your leg well that's legitimate but you break
your brain you're a slacker and you either need
to get back to work or get out if you can't hack
it go away blah blah blah And it's hard. Again,
these are people. And then they set this culture,
which is you're right. These are guys that you
live with, you know, from your crew, your company
officers, your battalion chiefs. You share responsibility.
You risk with each other every day. And then
they're told they can't speak to you while you're
going through this process. And you're told you
can't speak to them. You're given a no contact
order. Stay out of the firehouse. while you're
going through this mental health care, which
you just lost your closest support network, your
other family. And I just don't get how chiefs
think that's the right thing to do. And I've
become an empath. So then I start thinking, what
happened to that guy to make him behave this
way now that he's a chief? And boy, he needs
some help because he's bleeding on a lot of people
that didn't cut him. I hope slowly, promotion
by promotion, retirement by retirement, we will
slowly change the culture to where our sheriff,
I'm still a reserve deputy here for our county,
having cross -trained into law enforcement and
becoming an office investigator. I still enjoy
helping out with special details and the county
fair and stuff. But I'm really blessed that our
sheriff is, again, 100 % behind. physical fitness
and mental wellness uh and spiritual wellness
he just brought in uh two additional chaplains
to assist with that crisis intervention and and
create a coincidence stress management stuff
uh and uh those are the examples we should be
looking for and hope the toxic people retire
uh and that others are learning from this i hope
a guy who's suffering that now or seeing what
it does to his troops as a lieutenant The battalion
chief remembers that lesson if he ever gets to
be a fire chief or a police chief. I was at a
resource fair with a table set up talking about
this stuff. And a guy stopped by. He was a police
chief. And he starts saying, I don't believe
this is legitimate. You can't use injury leave.
It's not connected to the job. They're just weak.
If they got to take off for seeing a shrink,
they can use, I think that's the term you use,
seeing a shrink. They can use their own sick
leave, et cetera. And I said, chief, if a guy
comes in on crutches, can he go out on patrol?
Well, no, he's not fit for duty. I said, I guarantee
you guys got your agency. You have guys in mental
wheelchairs right now that shouldn't be out there,
but they are because of your attitude. Because
they're hurting and they can't say a word because
they're afraid of you. And that made him angry
and he walked away. So that's okay. And that
guy needs some help himself. Most of these guys,
It's funny. I had some great chiefs. I had some
not so great chiefs. Some of them forget where
they came from, forget what they needed when
they were out there on the floor, on the street.
And it's a shame that they can't be more sensitive
to that. It's just you're injured. You're injured.
You get carried back to work. It takes a little
time. Yeah, it costs some overtime. It costs
doing business. There will never be an overtime
-free public safety agency. It's just not possible.
You've got to have minimum manning standards,
and you've only got so many people on the payroll.
And so I get it, and I get that council doesn't
like it, but you've got to build it in as a cost
of doing business, just like fuel and supplies
and everything else. That's what I tried to do.
And I fought that battle with the politicians.
That's why we didn't get along. I cared more
about taking care of my people. That's funny
because on the reserve side, from being in crash
fire rescue, I became a first sergeant and first
in engineers and security police. And the first
sergeant's job, at least in the Air Force, is
literally theirs. You work only for the commander
and taking care of the troops is your number
one priority. And you're allowed to go in and
shut the door and tell the commander what you
think, including that he's wrong. You're expected
to. And he's expected to listen to you and take
your opinion seriously. And that's probably the
job in my life that fit me the best. It doesn't
work on the public side because when I closed
the door and tried to tell my bosses they were
wrong, I got threatened with being fired and
told to shut up and go away. but it'd be great
if there was more ability to do that humble themselves
and realize that this is not about power and
money it's not about getting reelected it's about
emergency services is emergency services and
so i have high hopes that the culture will keep
changing yeah you're out there driving the uh
the 24 72 which i think is great Our locally,
our folks work 24 on 24 off for three shifts
and then get a four day break. But that one day
between those one day each between those three
24s and they're they're now running like just
a small department. But they're they're getting
no sleep. They don't even bother going to bed
because the medic's going to be out constantly.
And then, you know, they're. Got a side job.
Everybody's got a side job. So by that third
24 -hour shift, they're just done. And I don't
know that four days off is enough. It was hard
back in the day. And they're doing 50 % more
calls than I was back in the 80s and 90s. And
so I worry about those guys. Yeah. Well, I mean,
again, there is a... totally preventable solution
to it um and it's interesting um i just had two
of your uh fire chiefs who i believe are part
of the uh or the leadership of the uh ohio fire
chiefs association just invite me onto their
podcast talk about 24 72 which is amazing because
the florida fire chiefs association when they
signed a bill recommending 42 hour work weeks
here They put an email out within their members,
which was sent to me, that they opposed the 42
-hour work week. So going back to what you were
alluding to, and I couldn't agree more, the fire
service mental health crisis that's not talked
about is the chiefs and the city and county council
members. If you can go home at 5 o 'clock every
night, sleep in your own bed, work 40 hours a
week, and then you will stand up and oppose.
firefighters who are awake all night running
these awful calls oppose them working less than
56 which is in created a crisis and now they're
working 80 you know mandatory overtime and you
sleep at night you need to look in the mirror
and go why am i sleeping at night because that's
not normal for someone in a selfless service
position whether it's the fire service or whether
it's in politics you're supposed to be serving
your community and if you're burying your community
and it doesn't bother you then I would argue
that you're borderlining on being a sociopath
and you really are not fit for duty to be in
a chief's position or a union president's position
or a counselor's position or a mayor's position.
So I think it's a really important part of this
whole thing. If you are in a position where you
actually can force change and you refuse to,
you need to really look in the mirror at your
own mental health and ask yourself, why am I
not bothered by these deaths and my recruitment
and retention spiraling downwards? Well, change
is scary. And you said the word selfless. We
don't have enough leadership there that's selfless
when they get to that level. And it's easy to
do. It becomes ego and control. And they forget
where they came from. And I will say, whether
when I was a local fire chief or as a law enforcement
chief of the state, you feel like you're trapped
because, you know, the board, the council wants
you to be their guy. But the troops who've known
you for years, especially if you came up through
the ranks, you're one of the guys, and they want
you to be their guy. And those aren't compatible.
You're torn there. Like sitting in union negotiations,
you've got to sit on the city's side of the table.
Even though you're with these guys you've been
with for 25 years, that's really hard to find.
I don't know if there is a balance. I always
leaned back towards the guys because, again,
I kind of had that. mentality for my military
duty that they're my people and I got to take
care of them. So that's how I found myself being
their guy and constantly in conflict with the
politicians who wanted me to be their guy. You're
going to cut the budget. No, I'm not. We just
told you to. Well, no, I'm not. They couldn't
understand why I wouldn't do what they told me
to because it's going to affect service. Well,
we have to. I don't know how you find that balance,
but remembering where you came from and remembering
why you're there. It's not about your ego. It's
not about a bigger paycheck or the power and
the titles. Again, I've heard fire chiefs say
this. Well, back when I was on shift, we didn't
have a problem with it. But again, look at your
run stats. Look at the growth of the community.
Look at the aging of the population, especially
EMS. Our folks are running at least 50, if not
70 % more calls than we did back when I was a
firefighter and a lieutenant through the 80s
and 90s. And so, no, we didn't have a big problem
with it back then. Maybe we were up once or twice
a night. Now you're up all night. And it's not
just the really critical incidents. It just gets
to be the wear of seeing sometimes the worst
in humanity. I've talked about this with first
responder clients. Again, back to that CISM model
of first worst and most recent. And some of the
really troubling incidents weren't really critical
incidents other than the fact that I'm in a house
where there's a medical emergency with grandma
and the living conditions are deplorable and
there's children in there. who are young and
innocent and have no control over their environment.
And it's just seeing them in that position and
then having to walk out. And you're going to
take grandma to the hospital. But what about
those poor children and your threadbare carpet
and cat poop everywhere and trash everywhere?
And, you know, I mean, look, is there any food
in the house? It's just disheartening and sad
and it troubles you. It's hard to go back to
sleep after that, too. Absolutely. If you get
a chance. So every day on the job can be difficult
and traumatic, seeing the worst side of humanity.
Yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, again, there's
two sides. It's firstly, like you said, the core
load. Secondly, a lot of departments, if they
had EMS, they weren't transport EMS. You know,
that's a whole different ballgame when you're
actually taking patients and holding the wall
for an hour and, you know, doing reports. And
then, you know, let's be honest as well. There
was a lot of people in chief's positions that
scurried up the ladder as fast as they could.
So they didn't spend a lot of time in the trenches.
Let's put that out there as well. I think what
really kills me, though, is two things. Firstly,
We know it's not working. Let's just put that
there. If the way we did it worked, then we wouldn't
have suicides and cancers or we wouldn't have
the magnitude of suicides and cancers and testosterone
depletion and alcoholism and addiction and broken
marriages and fractured relationships with children
and all the things that we have. That doesn't
mean that you don't love the job. And this is
what irks me when people are like, oh, there's
so much negativity. I say, yeah, because people
are dying. That's why there's negativity. It's
an issue. I know you love growing your mustache
and wearing your leather helmet and taking pictures
of yourself, but we have a real crisis that needs
to be addressed. And it's not about the love
of the job. It's about the working conditions,
like you said. But when we acknowledge that and
we go, okay, well, then obviously doing something
differently is a solution then. And then you
see that there are things like a 24 -72 and a
later start time and integrated 911 telehealth
to stop some of the calls even coming in in the
first place. And then access to equine therapy
and psychedelics. And all these other things
that are addressing the mental health and then
putting in fitness standards, because I don't
understand why that was ever even an issue that
we didn't have them. You know, I mean, we should
always have had them. Now you've just added three
or four false multipliers that are going to completely
revolutionize the fire service. But people say,
oh, we don't have the money. But that's a complete
false economy, because look at downstream of
how much a mental health retirement, you know,
disability costs, how much the treatment costs,
how much, you know, the mistakes by someone who's
so exhausted that they just drove the rescue
into a minivan full of kids. I mean, there is
a dollar and cents amount attached to every single
one of these issues. That would save money hand
over fist if you just invested in a fourth shift,
which would attract recruitment, have you fully
staffed now, put in a fitness standard. And then
all of a sudden you've got a much healthier,
much happier department operating at a higher
level with fewer mistakes and a healthy workforce.
So it is just about courage, acknowledging that
the way we do it just doesn't work. And then
asking the country who's doing it well. How did
you get there? Can you help us kind of figure
out what steps we would have to do? And then
boom, the rising tide lifts all ships. Yeah,
I just was doing a presentation a couple of weeks
ago to first responders. And the most recent
stats I found from, I think it was from FBN.
Anyway, 63 line of duty firefighter deaths were.
were listed in 2024, and cancer and heart disease
are still up there, but 132 suicides. And those
don't get reported as line of duty. Sometimes
they don't get tracked or reported at all. Another
positive I'm seeing here locally, a friend of
mine, a former police officer, runs our local
three -county mental health recovery board. And
he's real big right now. They're working for
funding, working with embedding mental health
folks with first responder agencies. So and it's
it's kind of the hook. So the deal is embedding
them and making them available to take out to
medical mental health emergencies on the street.
I mean, so maybe we take this person to care
instead of jail or instead of the emergency room,
we take them straight to the mental health office,
that kind of stuff. But you're also building.
a comfort and familiarity with mental health.
Now everybody in the firehouse knows Carla. She's
the mental health person. And they're more comfortable
around that. And yeah, she'll come out and help
you on a call when you've got someone who's having
a crisis. But then she also comes in and sits
around and has coffee at the firehouse. And we're
gradually start changing that. And then she's
also going to recognize things going on. And
so I think that's a good thing. Our sheriff is
working on it. Springfield Fire Department north
of me is already doing it. They're working with
the police. County to the east is doing it with
the sheriff's office. So I think that's a positive
thing to just make mental health normal. It's
okay to talk about it. Absolutely. Yeah, it goes
to what I was saying as well about at the front
door, if you're having that conversation, acknowledging.
what brought you here, then, you know, you've
removed stigma. Cause that's the thing that I
think we need to stop talking about removing
stigma. Cause we, this is, you know, 2026, we
need to be ahead of that. Now we get that stigma
point and we need to, if there's stigma anywhere,
it's the addiction side. So we gotta, we gotta
pull that out too. But yeah, if you, if you literally
normalize mental health from day one in the fire
service, then there is no stigma. There's no
stigma around PT and there will be no stigma
around mental health. Yeah, it'd be great to
first stay in a firehouse that you're introduced
to everybody, including the social worker. Yeah.
Who's just wearing a polo shirt and drinking
a cup of coffee and say, hey, I'm here to help
you. And this is normal instead of unusual. But
what do they say? 200 years of tradition unaffected
by change or whatever it is. Yeah, unimpeded
by change. Yeah, it's, I think. I think we're
on the right track and seeing folks like you,
like Jimmy and his conference. It's just amazing
to watch his growth there. Now he's talking about,
you know, he's outgrown this bigger building.
We found him at the fairgrounds. He outgrew the
conference center at the hotel in Beaver Creek
because we physically were in exotic Beaver Creek.
But they filled up the little conference hall
there. And then, unfortunately, the hotel also.
jacked their prices way up. So I was able to
connect him to the fairground folks and they
worked out the deal there. And now they're filling
that up and looking where we're going to move
next. We're going to need a bigger boat. And
that's great. And that's just grassroots. That's
just Jim and Nick and everybody that's leaned
in with him. And that's been pretty amazing too.
Yeah. And it's, it's the, it's the peer. You're
going to have, you know, Doctors and professionals
in suits stay there and talk to you all day.
But I took Ohio's peer support training class,
and I partnered. There's two social workers that
are my partners at this weekly group, and these
guys come from an in -residence addiction treatment
for veterans in Cincinnati. My biggest role is
to just keep reinforcing, I did it, you can do
it. Here's my survival story. Here's the tools
I use. Here's what I do every day. The daily
practice I learned at Sable Warrior. Here's the
books I read. Here's how I learned that the power
to heal me is inside me once I figure out how
to get to it. And that may be more effective.
I still need that clinical professional. But
having that survivor who sits there and says,
here's how I did it. You can do it, too, is huge.
It was huge for me. When I had people tell me,
you're going to be okay. Larry Turner says that
about Save a Warrior all the time. He says, these
people saved my life and I will forever do what
they tell me to do. I'm going to pray. I'm going
to meditate. I'm going to have a daily practice.
I'm going to make my bed and do all the things
that keep me well and at peace. Absolutely. I
want to hit one more area, then we'll go to some
closing questions. But you started the fire service,
you know, so early i'm sure there'd been some
incredible kind of you know metamorphosis so
what what was the environment that you started
in were you still open cab were you wearing scba
kind of what was that front door for you and
what have you seen as far as evolution in the
time that you were riding the rig had a uh a
plastic msa helmet and a long black rubber coat
and pull -up boots and uh I started as a volunteer.
We had jump seats, but the air packs were not
mounted. They were in a box. And so first attack
line was without SCBA. My first ever live fire
training was without SCBA. Crawl in under the
smoke. Keep your nose close to the nozzle. And
I was with another trainee and there was a instructor,
somebody behind us. And the guy in front of me
panicked. He set up. He got a big. chest full
of smoke and started coughing and he just bailed.
He knocked both of us over running out of the
house. And the instructor coached me forward
to the nozzle. And eventually I got outside and
I find myself on my hands and knees throwing
up in the front yard. And someone pats me on
the back and says, good job, rookie. So it was,
we had no clue. And when I went in the military,
in the Air Force, you did both crash aircraft
firefighting and you did traditional structural
firefighting. And at the time, they didn't even
make fire engines with jump seats. We rode tailboard.
And again, we had to get there and we started
modifying things. We would take SCBA out of the
box and put it on before we got on the tailboard,
just try to speed things up. And some bases,
they hung them on the wall behind the engine.
And when I eventually was riding the rescue crew,
we got permission to get brackets and mount them
so we could put them on. It was a three -man
crew in a Dodge Power Wagon with a utility body.
And we could put them on and be ready to go when
we got there. And I've seen the whole color change
gamut from red to green to back to red to red.
Now it's all two -tone. And now the whole black
over red. Everybody wants to be Chicago. But,
yeah, especially. The, what we used to call them
night pants, which were the bunker pants. And
then in the late 90s, oh my gosh, Nomex hoods.
I was a captain in the late 90s. We were doing
a full -time equivalent fire academy here. Folks
wanted to take, they were volunteers and part
-timers and they wanted to get the training to
make them eligible for full -time jobs. And we
had a local chief send a couple guys to it and
they didn't have Nomex hoods. And we said, you
have to have Nomex hoods. And this chief got
really angry because he was an older chief who
was all into the, no, your exposed ears will
tell you when it's too hot and when to get out.
And so we ended up giving them hoods out of our
supply. But luckily, that's all gone. And then
a big one, it was very much the culture of don't
do anything until you're told to. Why train?
You went to fire school, didn't you? What do
you need to go to training for? You already know
everything you need to know. Now just sit down
and watch TV until someone makes you get up.
And one of the first questions I got asked when
I came home from active duty and went to work
for the city, it wasn't, you know, you got this
experience, the Air Force, can you drive a fire
engine? You're an EMT, blah, blah, blah. It was,
can you cook? That was their most important priority
for a new guy. And when I said no, then I was
worthless. And and then finally, again, health
and physical fitness. Actually, in 2003, I actually
was able to write. I was deputy chief here and
I got a AFG grant for physical fitness for my
department. And we did chest X -rays, medical
screening. uh hep c testing or and uh and uh
vaccinations and got physical fitness equipment
and it's still there and they're still using
it the young people are much more tuned into
physical fitness now so that was a big uh evolutionary
change in the job you just didn't think about
it so yeah lots of stuff um it's fascinating
to uh the changes and the uh still not a fan
of the electronic pump panel Small things to
go wrong. The computer that runs everything there
now. I know we got a new ladder truck in the
early 90s that had a computer -operated leveling
system. Yeah, that went wrong a lot. It was out
of service, I think, more than it was in service.
And then we find out, well, our chief bought
the first one. So that was never good. But, yeah,
technology has made a lot of improvements. I'm
just kind of old -fashioned in some things. But
I love to see the young people willing to learn
and ask questions and learn the Department of
History and learn how things, you know, I used
the term day boots once. You know, what are day
boots? Well, you have day boots and night pants.
Well, what's that? Well, they don't exist anymore.
You wear them every day all the time. What about
career calls? When you reflect back now, it doesn't
have to be, air quotes, the worst ones, but just
some of the ones that stuck in your mind, whether
it was a rip in fire or maybe even just an act
of kindness. Well, on the positive side, got
to birth a baby once on Christmas Eve in a house
with the third child. And I was a lieutenant
on the engine. we chased the medic on the call
it was that was the way we ran anything critical
the engines going with them and um so that was
fun uh because uh the guys took care of the baby
and cut the to turn around and handed the baby
to me and they they had like a towel and i took
the towel and uh you know it was cold weather
in the winter we used to wear our fire coat that's
another change we didn't wash gear you wouldn't
wash your gear for years but i had my fire coat
on And I tucked the child inside and pulled the
coat around. And there was a female police officer
there. She goes, oh, let me have the baby. I
said, I'm doing just fine. I'm going to keep
the baby. And then I went downstairs and introduced
him to his older brother and sister and sat down
on the couch and waited until the guys brought
mom down on the stair chair and got her on the
cot. And off we went to the hospital and the
baby back once they got in the medic. That was
pretty cool. The other major event, we're known
for some tornadoes here. And I was in junior
high school when the big one hit in 74. And then
we had a small one in 89. I was working at the
firehouse that night. And then by the last huge
one we had was in 2000. I was a deputy chief
and just got home from the firehouse. I'm on
40 hours now. And it hit at 530 something in
the afternoon. And I don't think I went into
work and set up. area command for the north half
of the area that was devastated and came home
about a week later. But we learned a lot. We
learned a lot of hard lessons. And that led to
then 12 different departments in this county
that all tried to act like they were the Lone
Ranger, finally getting together. And eventually
I was a fire chief or the neighboring fire chief,
developing automatic aid, central dispatching,
things that everybody's just routine now. We
did a lot of work to train together and work
to the point that now pretty much any fire response
is going to have probably engines and ladders
from three different departments on it on the
first alarm just automatically build in. And
that was unheard of when I first started. Old
chiefs were like, when I get there, I'll decide
if it's big enough to need help. How did you
navigate that? Sorry to butt in, but this is
something I talked about a lot. I remember a
call I had, and I've talked about it here a few
times, on the edge of the Orange County and Orlando
line. I mean, Orange County, technically still,
we're on a medical call, but it's a densely packed
trailer park, old, with a load of trees, and
the electricity line is sparking. So we are literally,
we have an imminent, you know, tree fire that's
going to turn into multiple trailers. And I'm
calling my dispatch and I'm saying, we need an
engine because I'm just on a regular medical
rescue. And I'm looking at Orlando Station 5,
like one block away from where I am. And I'm
arguing with the dispatcher. I'm like, look,
just send the city. Oh, we need to check for
a suit. No, no, no. I'm looking at the station.
Just send the city. But this ego that county
and city don't talk together or PD and FD don't
talk together is nauseating because it's just
egos. And it does such a disservice to the people
that we actually serve. So when you had these
chiefs with these egos, how were you able to
navigate that and bring all these agencies together
and work together for the betterment of the people
in Ohio? Well, I guess the first thing was that.
jeff and i he was the city chief i'm the township
chief we're we're joined at the hip because the
township completely surrounds the city um they're
they're minimal staffed all full -time more combination
most of the area departments are going combination
uh we we tackled it together we worked it out
an idea and a plan we had this we we had a central
dispatch center had been created that most agencies
were in but it Nobody used the full capability
to build alarms and build boxes and build backups.
And then we had this complicated four -digit
coded numbering system for vehicles that you
really didn't say engine or medic. You didn't
know what it was unless you knew the secret code.
And the tornado was really, I think, the catalyst
that we finally got together and said, look.
our response was a disaster. We couldn't talk
to each other. We didn't have any common tactical
channels. We had different dispatch centers and
law enforcement was disconnected. We had neighborhoods
that got missed on search and neighborhoods that
got searched two or three times because of a
lack of an EOC. The other thing, the city had
created their own EOC, but they wouldn't work
with anybody else. So what came out of this was
another thing is the county actually hired an
emergency operations center director and created
one to to serve the entire county. It was just
slow and gradual and common sense. A lot of leaning
on the NIMS typing standards of naming apparatus,
what they are and what their function is. So
we fully know what resource is coming when we
hear it on the radio. And finally, it came down
to one chief in one city in the corner that literally
said, okay, I'm in. I just can't change my station
numbers because we're looking at like a total
overhaul. Because everybody's got their own station
one, station two. And we need to, we want to
create this county two -digit numbering system
that, and this guy's like, I can't do that or
the union will file agreements. He says, I can't
make any changes in that area or my union will
file agreements. We said, why? Because they grieve
everything. I can't change the toilet paper roll
without agreements. And we're like. okay we'll
make you one two three and four over there and
then we'll pick up with 10 11 12 you know and
uh gradually it worked out and then that began
gradually sitting down literally with spreadsheets
of if medic 31 is busy what's the next medic
what's going to be 51 here 52 here how do we
build this in that it happens automatically so
we take away that need for somebody Because going
all the way back to the volunteer days, if somebody
was gone to work and they're not answering the
pager and dispatch centers would just keep dropping
tones and nobody says a word about, and the dispatchers
aren't empowered to go ahead and send the closest
as you're, it makes no sense. Those lines on
the map. Cause we saw you literally somebody
be responding, come to the city limit and just
stop and park. I can't go out there. Politicians.
We'll drive a lot of that because well that you
know, we paid for that ladder truck. It doesn't
belong out there They don't understand mutual
aid. They see everything as dollars and cents
It's definitely come a long way. I'm really proud.
Nobody knows we did it You know the guys of us
that were around 20 some years ago None of these
young people know we did it. They take it for
granted. This is the way things have always been.
But the incident management system, the resource
typing was a big resource. We just need to simplify
this, use plain language, get rid of all the
codes and signals we used to use. None of that
makes any sense to worry about someone. What's
the security of hearing someone on their scanner
in their house that we're... transporting someone
to the hospital. We're not violating anybody's
rights or that we're going to ask for another
engine or whatever. Just keep it simple. And
so they just, you know, technology and everything,
it keeps growing and it's been really cool to
watch it evolve and watch it happen. You mentioned
tornadoes. I've asked a couple of people that
have been from parts of the country where they
have a lot of them too. In Florida, when we have
hurricanes bearing down it's it's big big news
and we have national weather people suddenly
arrive here and sometimes they'll even you know
pretend there's a big hurricane when there isn't
you know they'll be in the water and then someone's
walking their dog behind them um but yeah a lot
of these tornadoes are catastrophic and they
kill you know tens and tens and tens of people
in these towns and it doesn't feel like they
get the same attention when it comes to the media
I don't know whether it may be because these
are more densely populated cities, the earthquakes
or the hurricanes. What is your perspective on
the exposure and or the resources for some of
these tornadoes that you have where you are in
comparison to some of the other large events
that did seem to make news a lot more, for a
lot longer, should I say? I don't have any experience
responding to a hurricane, but having watched
them. got family on the panhandle coast in florida
obviously it's much larger weather event it's
going to impact a much larger area all at the
same time but on the flip side of that emergency
services and and anybody and everybody's got
days to prepare for that because you're watching
it on radar and through hurricane hunters and
stuff move towards you. And it's changing tracks
a little bit here. The difference in Midwestern
weather is right now we have a thunderstorm watch
for Thursday evening, Friday, Thursday evening
for like four until midnight. And then that can
escalate depending on the conditions. But we
seldom get 10 minutes warning that a tornado
is coming. So you can't disperse. You can't staff
up. You can't make sure you've got enough water
stocked away. You kind of got to be ready for
it all times because they happen very suddenly.
And in some cases, there's no, and it's weird,
but September 20th of 2000, like I said, I was
the deputy chief. It was raining that day. There
were some storms here and there. I came home
and had just eaten dinner and look out the front
window and we're getting hit. And there was not
even a watch that day saying conditions were
right. And tornadoes do a lot of devastation,
but it's more localized. I think the 74 tornado
had a path at its widest was about a mile wide
damaged path. Often it narrows down more. And
if it hits a rural area like I live north of
town, it went right down the road over the hill
from us and knocked down several barns. But luckily,
it didn't sit down in the populated area five
miles south. It sat down there. So that's the
difference, I think, from a responder situation
is I don't have time to stock up, get ready,
pre -stage stuff. I better have that ready in
the season. And again, September is not normally
tornado season. But we've had some bad ones around
here in September. And that one in particular,
there was. No weather watches or warnings out
that day at all, just a pop -up thunderstorm.
So it's not an exact science, I guess. What about
the national attention, though? I feel like some
of these tornado events have killed a huge amount
of people, but they don't seem to have the same
exposure than some of these other weather events.
And I wonder, is it just because they're not
New York, L .A., Miami, or is there some other
reason? I, uh, I think it, so it might've got
some national media for a minute that we had
this big tornado here in September, 2000. But
when you go back to 74, uh, they now look back,
that was an entire front that came across the
United States. It spawned like 97 tornadoes across
the Midwest that day that got a lot of media
attention. And it's, uh, and the other thing
is, uh, The hurricane, so you get a tornado watch.
You really don't get a hurricane watch because
you're watching it build. You're watching this
hurricane come at you for days. So that's all
the red meat the media wants, the attention,
the clicks, the advertisers to see. It's hard
to do that with a tornado because all you can
say is, hey, there's a watch, there's a warning.
We don't know what's going to happen. And so
it doesn't get. all the focus media attention,
I think. And unless it's multiple tornadoes across
a large area that damages multiple areas, you
kind of spread out a hurricane -like level of
damage, it doesn't get the same media attention.
It does get, we had good support from FEMA at
the time and from Ohio EMA and learned a lot.
So it gets the resources. It doesn't get all
the media love, I guess. Brilliant. All right.
Well, then moving on. So the equine therapy that
you offer now, as you said, you know, you have
it in your own place. So talk to me about, you
know, what you offer and how people can find
you there. So we're here, as I said, Southwest
Ohio. Look at our website, which I think I'll
send you. You put up when we and call me. My
cell phone number is the only number we have.
We don't need a referral from a. mental health
professional. If you have one already, that's
great because I want to work with them and coordinate
processing the stuff that we do. And just check
your fears. And some of the people that I found
a little bit, if you think you have horse experience,
you don't need to show me that. And some people
with a lot of horse experience, myself included,
at some point in my therapy, they said, look,
stop showing us what you know about horses. You're
here for you. And then we got a kind of eight
structured sessions that teach these different
things. But it works well for type A veterans
and first responders because you're moving with
the horse, doing activities and getting feedback
and you're learning at the same time. So and
that's it. No charge. And the farm is Vegas.
What goes here stays here. Nobody, especially
the horse, is going to judge you. And we do this
just. I'm not retired. God repurposed me. And
we're on a healing journey. And this is part
of my healing is to continue to do this and help
others find the peace. I'm blessed. A lot of
good people help me. I just want to pay it forward
a little bit. Absolutely. Well, I want to throw
some quick closing questions at you before I
let you go. The first one I love to ask, is there
a book or are there books that you love to recommend?
It can be related to our discussion today or
completely unrelated. I'm a big fan of an author.
He just passed away last year, Tim Hayes, who
is a horseman late in life. But he did a study
and wrote a book called Riding Home, The Power
of Horses to Heal. I actually gift them to my
clients when they, I don't know if I can get
that off the glare, but you can see it. Nope,
guess not. I have a box of them because when
folks finish our program, I give them a copy
of this. And it's got a lot of great stories
that he went out and researched everything from
children's to veterans to prisoners incarcerated,
working with horses and finding peace. That's
one of my favorites. Beautiful. What about television
documentaries or films? Well, I try not to watch
anything that has commercials. If there's something
I like. Yeah, I'm a military history geek and
I love Westerns, anything with a horse. But we
just lost Robert Duvall. And a great actor with
such a range of so many great things. But in
the 80s, I read the book Lonesome Dove. And I
actually have a copy of it here. And I have the
prequel and the sequel that Larry McCurry wrote.
And I loved that book. And when I saw the miniseries
coming out, not only Robert Duvall, but Tommy
Lee Jones, those guys just nailed those characters,
brought them to life. and that will forever be
my favorite thing to view. It's a television
miniseries, and I've seen it many times, and
it's just a great story. The guy, he's King Arthur
in a cowboy hat. He's a knight on an old cow
horse. It's a great story if you get to read
it and to watch the miniseries also. Lonesome
Dove. Brilliant. I appreciate that. Thank you.
All right. The next question. Is there a person
that you recommend to come on this podcast as
a guest to speak to the first responders, military
and associated professions of the world? You
probably had everybody because anybody that I
would know is already in that circle with Jim
and his program and Jake and Save a Warrior.
And off the top of my head, I might ask. My sheriff,
Scott Anger, he's a pretty neat guy. Started
as a police officer and was eventually a sergeant
and then captain running the drug task force.
And then he was selected to be chief deputy by
our former sheriff, Gene Fisher. And Gene, unfortunately,
died very suddenly four years ago. As much as
we hate that, Scott stepped in as doing a great
job. He's a very calm, peaceful man. He's a good
leader for the sheriff's office. He really cares
about us. And he's really leaned into mental
health for law enforcement. I can ask him if
he'd be interested. Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank
you. With that being said, you just popped something
in my head. You'd be an interesting kind of perspective
of this. What is your perspective on some of
these sheriffs? theatrics that we see these days
putting themselves out as this kind of you know
western cowboy you know hang them high kind of
uh caricature that we're seeing some of these
people start to put out i i haven't watched a
lot of it but i know from traveling because wyoming
is one of my favorite places in the world uh
the first time we traveled out there we were
stopped getting gas and a deputy sheriff climbed
out of his car wearing a western hat and my wife
says The guy's wearing a cowboy hat and uniform.
I said, it is his uniform. So for Texas Rangers,
a lot of folks, it's a part of the culture. It's
part of the horseman culture. And although, as
I tell people, this is a Western hat, not a cowboy
hat. I've got a horse I can ride, but I can't
rope. So I'm not a cowboy. So I don't know. I
haven't seen a lot of that as far as I've seen
some. And I'm like. okay whatever works for you
if i was in that position i wouldn't do it i
think like our sheriff he wears the same uniform
we wear every day you've got different badges
and stuff on it but he doesn't try to do anything
to stand out and be special and when i was a
chief of the arson bureau i still unless i had
to go downtown to a meeting i didn't wear class
a's or a suit i was in the same polo and 511s
all the guys were because at any minute i'm going
to a scene That was a blessing. The marshal did
not make me sit in the office in Columbus. He
let me go wherever something was going on in
the state. And I was, you know, technology wise,
I was able to be connected through radio and
computers and stuff. So just, yeah, be humble.
And, you know, if your people aren't allowed
to do that, then don't do that. Setting that
example is critically important. There we go.
Love it. All right. Well, the last question before
we just reiterate where people can find you,
what do you do to decompress? I shut the gate
to the road and putter around the barns. There's
always something to do. And sometimes if I'm
like when I go out to feed or do something with
the horses, they'll tell me right away just by
how they react to me, whether I got something
in my head or not. And now I catch it. I know,
oh, something, what's going on? So I've got a
little two -minute grounding thing where I'll
sit down and do an extra meditation. And then
I'll just climb in to the pen out by the barns
and spend some time just hands -on and hugging
them and bring my energy down. And then I'll
go about what I'm doing. But we like to garden.
We grow more vegetables than we can use. And
we give them to the neighbors and take them to
the food pantry. just to give back. I'm active
as a leader in my church and take care of some
stuff there. But yeah, I've found a lot of peace.
Getting ready to get a coop and get a couple
of chickens and have our own eggs. I don't think
I'm going to get the beehive going this year.
It's much more complex than I expected. I got
two more weeks of classes and then I'd have to
assemble the equipment. But that's something
I want to do. Just nature and husbandry. Love
to hike. I love to trail ride my horse and anything
outdoors. That's always good for my soul. You
just jolted my memory for a second. I want to
put one more thing in there before I let you
go. When I spent that time with yourself and
Doc and your wife, I think it was your wife initially
was talking about one of the people that you
worked with, if I'm remembering rightly, wasn't
doing very well mentally. And sat in a chair
and the horse actually ended up like putting
their head on them on the chair, like almost
leaning into them completely. Does that ring
a bell with you? It actually is an unusual. So
I said I learned the warrior meditation practice,
the 20 minute meditation model at Save a Warrior.
And so, again, not only is this redneck meditating,
I'm teaching it to other people. So when we do
that, we take a couple of lawn chairs out into
the arena. And I tell them to close their eyes.
I'll keep an eye open for safety. And we go through
this process. And it's a three phase model. And
always by the end of the second phase, the horse
starts to come closer. And in some cases, the
horse and it's weird. I don't know why. And I
try not to get attached to any expectations.
It's my horse, but it almost always go to the
warrior client. stand close to them and we're
like 10 feet apart and then very often rest their
nose on their shoulder or the top of their head
or something and pick up a foot and relax and
just be still with that change in energy and
yeah it's brought some people to tears and that's
That's the power of these amazing animals that
you go in there fearing this thousand pound crazy
thing that'll bite, kick and kill you. And you
find this gentle thing that just wants to be
close to you. And you feel that and you get the
tears and then you get the smiles and I get paid.
Well, yeah, you put it into. what we hear all
the time, which is the father or mother who's
a first responder and they're riddled with guilt
because their kids are on eggshells. Well, this
horse gets to be a mirror for you. And so then,
you know, you're also able to see, well, okay,
now I can do the same thing before I walk through
the door. And so that way, maybe kind of, you
know, take it down a few notches and actually
be that kind of calm parent again, shedding off
what I've just seen or done, you know, the few
hours prior. So I think the horses are great
mirrors, as Buck says. It really is that you
can then carry over to your family. They will
reflect. If you go out there with anxiety, they're
going to get some anxiety and move away. And
that's not the first reaction most people have
is, oh, the horse doesn't like me. That's where
they're very different from dogs, because my
dog is going to sit at my feet and bark at you
because you're a stranger and I'm familiar. The
horse is different psychologically. You're the
being in this space, and I don't want to be alone,
but I don't feel good about your energy, so I'm
going to move over here until your energy changes.
And that's not judgmental. It's not like or dislike.
It's just their nature. And then I learn, it's
not the horse, it's me. And how do I change that?
How do I, through breathing, through mindfulness,
through meditation, through understanding how
to... you know reset my my brain uh get that
amygdala out of control and uh and quit hijacking
me into anger and flight all the time and and
be at peace and then you'll see that change and
the horse comes back each session the cool thing
is that um we used to do an exercise to save
a warrior we'd have five warriors and one horse
in a round pen we'd send guys in one at a time
and each one would have a different experience
the horse would react differently to each one
because the energy is different from each one.
And these guys got to see that. And I remember
once a guy went in there years ago and the horse
reacted kind of negatively and literally turned
and kind of bounced his hips a couple of times
like he was going to kick. And that guy immediately
turned around and he says, he's a big guy, combat
veteran. And he says, you know, my wife's five
foot and a hundred pounds. And I just realized
how scared she is when I get angry because that
thing just scared the crap out of me. He says,
I had no idea how she felt. And he started crying.
And then horse came back over and laid his head
on his shoulder. And then someone says, hey,
hug the horse. I got to hug the horse, hug the
horse. And this guy's like, nope, I got what
I need. I'm done. And he was ready to come out.
You can't make it up, and it never gets old,
and it's always amazing. Well, I want to thank
you so much. It's been such a great conversation.
I mean, again, your own life journey and all
the different uniforms that you've worn in itself
is so unique, but the vulnerability, the courageous
vulnerability that you've had to not only...
address your own struggles and find the toolbox
that was unique for you but then to become a
mentor in that space as well and educate us not
only you know on this conversation today but
i literally got to spend time with you and doc
um and and feel it myself and it was phenomenal
it really was it was a complete reset for me
so i want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on the behind the shield
podcast today well you're absolutely worth it
anybody that gets anything out of it uh you know
all that uniform stuff i know now was totally
dysfunctional and not good for me, but it put
me here. So Garth Brooks said, I could have missed
the pain, but then I'd have missed the dance.
And I'm dancing.