WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

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always, my name is James Geering, and this week

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it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show

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veteran first responder, Air Force veteran, and

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equine therapy facilitator, Tim Spradlin. Now,

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in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics,

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from his journey into the fire service, some

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powerful career calls, his transition into law

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enforcement, deployments to Iraq. his own powerful

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mental health story, Save a Warrior, how horses

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are a mirror to our soul, and so much more. Now,

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before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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Spradlin'. Enjoy. Well, Tim, I want to start

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by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Jim

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Bernica for basically facilitating our introduction

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at the Brothers Helping Brothers Conference in

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Exotic Beaver Creek, Ohio. And secondly, I want

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to welcome you on to the Behind the Shield podcast

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today. Thank you, James. I'm just happy to be

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alive today. Yeah, you and me both, mate. All

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right, let's start with the very first question

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then. Where on planet Earth are we finding you

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today? I am in southwest Ohio in Greene County

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in Xenia Township. Beautiful. Is that where the

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facility was located that we met? Was it in Xenia?

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Yeah, that's the Greene County Fairgrounds Exposition

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Center where Jimmy and Nick are currently doing

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the Firefighter Behavioral Health Conference.

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And I had been to their conference a few times

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and knew these guys. And then they moved it from

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a hotel to the fairgrounds. And Jim had been

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out to my program. And he's like, hey, do you

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think you could bring a horse since there's big

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open grassy areas here at the exposition center?

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I'm like, sure. So it's been really powerful,

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I think. You spent a lot of time in the round

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pen with my horse last year. I did. I did. But

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this is the thing. When this is kind of your

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echo chamber a little bit, you know, you have

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to also step back, as I'm sure I'm preaching

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to the choir and, you know, take a breath of

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air yourself. And, you know, there was some of

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the conversations and the film showings. And

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I'm like, you know, I've seen the film. I had

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the creator of the film on the show. I'm like,

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I think I'm just going to go hang out with a

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horse instead. So everyone else is out there.

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And I got to speak to you and your wife and hang

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out with your horse for a couple of hours in

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the end. Yeah, it was. Yeah, and I was the same.

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Instead of sitting in the conference, you wanted

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to be out there, so I was going to be out there.

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So it's all good. Yeah, I appreciate it. Well,

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let's start at the very beginning of your timeline

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then. So tell me where you were born and tell

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me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings. I'm the

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oldest of four combined. So family's from Kentucky

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originally. My folks crossed the river for steel

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mill jobs down in Portsmouth, Ohio. We didn't

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have a lot. I mean, we had food and clothing,

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but my dad was a workaholic and an alcoholic.

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And when I was six years old, a whole bunch of

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the uncles and my dad, everybody moved up here

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to the Dayton area for General Motors jobs. And

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I had family that farmed in the east part of

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the county, but we never had any extra money.

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Dad helped out. I learned I did a lot of farm

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work. um and loved the outdoors loved the animal

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husbandry my cousin had a horse and i wanted

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a horse and my dad said you know if i can't feed

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it and sell it and butcher it then i'm not going

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to feed it now so um i was frustrated that i

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didn't get to own a horse growing up but i always

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loved them and then later was blessed a little

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over 30 years ago with my second marriage to

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find someone who loved horses also and And our

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little trail ride piece of heaven turned into

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something bigger than I ever imagined. When I

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hear Portsmouth, Ohio, it reminds me of Sam Quinones,

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who wrote a book called Dreamland. And it was

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about the opioid crisis and Portsmouth being

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one of the original hubs that was preyed upon

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initially by legal pharmaceuticals, OxyContin,

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and then the cartels after that. With you having

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this kind of perspective of that, area as a young

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boy and even your parents. One thing you hear

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a lot about the metamorphosis of addiction and

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mental health problems and alcoholism is also

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loss of industry. You look at a lot of places

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in Ohio, you look at Detroit. What did you witness

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or even in conversations with your parents as

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far as the impact of those loss of jobs on contributing

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to addiction in that part of Ohio? I don't think

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I ever talked about it with my parents while

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they were alive. I just at occasional events

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down there and my parents are both buried down

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there. That's that's down home. I mean, for as

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long as I remember, that's I never heard him

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call our house here in town home. It was always

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we're going down home. But watching my cousins

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in the life. lives they live and the struggles

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they've had versus me, I'm kind of glad I didn't

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stay down there. I love the countryside, but

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more experience on that with, in my public career,

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I've finished my career with the state arson

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bureau and arson with meth labs were exploding.

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Arson was being used as a offensive tool against

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rival crack houses. And just in general, in the

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law enforcement community, we were dealing with

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what were unfortunately termed pillbillies. There

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was this massive operation of folks flying down

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to Florida, where you're at, buying giant Ziploc

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bags of Oxy. And they fly into Charleston, West

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Virginia and drive across the river and start

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distributing them throughout the hills of southeast

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Ohio and eastern Kentucky. And it was a huge

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criminal enterprise and a huge problem for us.

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And it may still be. I'm kind of out of that

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game right now. I had such a unique perspective,

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you know, totally naive before this was even

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being talked about. But when I moved to the U

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.S., which was 2002, we were in Orlando for a

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little while and then we went down south. And

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my ex was working in a doctor's office in Broward

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County. I remember her telling me, like, it's

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so weird. You know, the doctor writes these prescriptions.

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People fly from all over the country. They get

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these prescriptions and then they leave again.

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She got just a bad feeling about the whole thing.

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And, you know, I ended up saying, well, let's

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just, you know, don't work there anymore. We'll

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find somewhere else. And then, you know, the

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term pill mill becomes, you know, popular. And

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all of a sudden they're shutting these places

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down. But I mean, this, you know, kind of fast

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forwarding to the mental health in the first

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responder profession. OxyContin was deliberately,

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you know, deliberately targeting the areas of

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the country they knew were more desperate. They

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were deliberately getting to the rural doctors

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and driving their sales there. They were lying

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about the efficacy and the safety of their product.

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And this was FDA approved. Now, fast forward

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to recently, we have MDMA -led psychotherapy,

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which is just a tool. We've got psychedelics,

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all these other ones as well, on top of what

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we're going to talk about today, which the FDA

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refused to allow. So I think it's a really important

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story that the origin of this opioid crisis that

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takes hundreds of thousands of Americans every

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year, that came from a legally prescribed, fraudulently

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advertised. FDA -approved product that was preying

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upon places like Ohio. Yep. The folks down home

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living up the holler, the mills and a lot of

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the industry went away, often to other countries,

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and towns kind of withered up and dried. I mean,

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our entire greater extended family. completely

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uprooted northern Kentucky and southern Ohio

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and came to the Dayton area because that's where

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the jobs were. And it's a shame to see what's

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blighted down there now. There's still things

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going on. But I don't get down there except once

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a year to the cemeteries. Now, I really don't

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have a close relationship with any of my cousins

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or anybody that survives. But I still love the

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country down there. It's just there's a lot of

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ugly. going on that you don't get to see and

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folks don't know about yeah well i think this

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is what this conversation is going to be about

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it's about healing you know if we had a national

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healing you know these come these parts of the

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country would just be that part of the country

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again and be able to enjoy it but you know the

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nucleus of a lot of crime is is addiction and

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mental health so well anyway back to uh as i

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got to be a teenager uh early teens um As I said,

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Dad was an Army veteran. He was an alcoholic.

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He was a workaholic. He grew up down in the hollers.

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He was leading a mule, dragging logs to Grandpa's

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sawmill by the time he was 10 years old. So he

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didn't really have much fun in his life, and

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I didn't want to be like him. My mom's brother

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was a firefighter for the city of Portsmouth

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full -time, and he... kind of became my hero.

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And I wanted to do that. If I couldn't be a farmer,

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I wanted to be a farmer and dad didn't own any

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of the farms. So I started volunteering here

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locally while I was still in high school. And

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I wanted to test and go to work full time for

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the city. You had to be 21 years old. And I'm

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a high school senior and impatient. And one of

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the other guys who volunteered at the fire station

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was his full time job was he was the Air Force

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recruiter in town. And so we're eight miles,

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10 miles from Wright -Patterson Air Force Base.

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And John took me over there and toured the fire

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stations and said, you should go in, do four

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years. You'll get great training, certifications.

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And then when you come home, you'll be ahead

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of the game for taking the test to go to work

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for the city. So that's what I did. I listed

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delayed entry before I graduated and went to

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basic training in Texas and then the Crash Fire

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Rescue School in Illinois. And ended up, luckily,

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active duty in northern Indiana. So I was four

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hours from home and started testing for fire

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departments here. I wanted to work for my hometown.

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Got offered the job and the Air Force let me

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out six months early to come home and go to work.

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That six months required a 12 -month commitment

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in the Air Force Reserve. And that was such a

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great side job from the fire department. That

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went on for 26 years. So that's how I ended up

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being kind of career military also. I love being

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a firefighter. I just seem to absorb everything

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to where it was something I was, you know, I

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was never really athletic and I was a valedictorian,

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but I had enough combination of smarts and physical

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ability to be good at firefighter. I also had

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to be a paramedic, struggled with that, got C's.

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but it was a required part of the job. And I,

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on my own, went out. In fact, sometimes I had

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to take my own vacation time to become a fire

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instructor and a fire investigator and got involved

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with the county investigation team and working

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alongside sheriff's detectives. About 15 years

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in, by now I've changed departments. To take

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a captain and deputy chief position, went to

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the neighboring department where I now live.

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As it grew, continued to go from volunteer to

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part -time to full -time. And I used my reserve

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GI Bill to go to the police academy, so I got

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that badge also. So as one of my classmates told

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me, and I've repeated this a lot, I had both

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badges. I could eat a donut while I sleep in

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the recliner. There we go. Multitasking. Kind

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of an unusual skill set. And then I was also

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in the reserve at Wright -Patterson and did that.

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Eventually ended up combining the badges to go

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to work for the state fire marshal's office in

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arson investigation, police specializing in arson

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bombings. And at that time, there was a lot of

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meth labs blowing up because they were still

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cooking with propane and stuff back then. And

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so I did two deployments. My second deployment,

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I got injured in a Humvee accident, screwed up

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my neck. By that time, I was an E -8. I was a

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first sergeant for a security police squadron.

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And I was being mentored on the fast track to

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become an E -9 chief master sergeant, the highest

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rank you can get. And because of my injury, I

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couldn't pass the fitness test and I had to retire.

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And I hated that. It made me angry. I thought

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it was a failure because I had all these people

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promoting me, you know, what a great job I was

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doing, blah, blah, blah. And then finally, I

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got to completely retire. Well, we paid our little

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farm off. My wife says, you don't have to work

00:14:57.259 --> 00:15:00.899
full time if you don't want to. And the other

00:15:00.899 --> 00:15:03.779
thing, going up, every promotion seemed like

00:15:03.779 --> 00:15:05.600
a good idea at the time because you think you're

00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:07.320
going to make a positive change and you're going

00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.220
to do more. In some ways, I guess I did with

00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:15.779
the troops and as academy instructor and that

00:15:15.779 --> 00:15:18.419
kind of stuff. But I was never good at the political

00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:22.179
side of being a chief. Being a chief locally

00:15:22.179 --> 00:15:25.279
and then being a chief at the state level was

00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:28.000
just miserable. The administration, the management

00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.779
misplaced priorities. And I found myself angry

00:15:31.779 --> 00:15:36.019
all the time. And so when she said I could retire,

00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:38.240
I pulled the plug. I loved the work. I hated

00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.500
the management. And I had some great people I

00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:44.080
worked with. We had 26 of us for the entire state.

00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:53.519
And so there I am. Retired from everything. And

00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:58.860
I was sitting down here in my man cave and I

00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:09.000
bought an Xbox. And I had secretly in 2010, 2011,

00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.740
my youngest son as a soldier deployed to Afghanistan.

00:16:12.649 --> 00:16:14.809
That triggered a whole bunch of stuff for me

00:16:14.809 --> 00:16:18.289
from Iraq. So I went to mental health at Dayton

00:16:18.289 --> 00:16:20.549
VA, but I lied to my boss and told him I was

00:16:20.549 --> 00:16:22.629
getting physical therapy for my neck injury because

00:16:22.629 --> 00:16:24.389
I didn't want to be disarmed and locked in the

00:16:24.389 --> 00:16:29.509
office. And so that was the only time I'd ever

00:16:29.509 --> 00:16:31.750
really gone to mental health. I got through that

00:16:31.750 --> 00:16:35.710
year at the VA with individual and group and

00:16:35.710 --> 00:16:39.970
it helped. But ultimately, it wasn't the solution

00:16:39.970 --> 00:16:46.059
that I needed. And I was sitting here washing

00:16:46.059 --> 00:16:49.240
my depression meds, which I kept a secret also,

00:16:49.340 --> 00:16:54.279
down with beer. And Susan says, you're all retired.

00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:56.039
Good for you. What are you going to do? And I

00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.019
said, I'm waiting to die. I didn't know what

00:17:00.019 --> 00:17:03.419
to do with myself or who I was, I guess, other

00:17:03.419 --> 00:17:05.799
than a uniform and a title and a job. And I always

00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:10.630
had three of those. So the only thing that got

00:17:10.630 --> 00:17:14.309
me away from the Xbox and the numbing and isolation

00:17:14.309 --> 00:17:18.049
was we had horses. We were trail riders. Just

00:17:18.049 --> 00:17:21.630
a little hobby farm. Nothing special. No registered

00:17:21.630 --> 00:17:25.470
champions or showing or any of that stuff. And

00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:29.710
I had to go take care of the horses. And everything

00:17:29.710 --> 00:17:32.650
I did with the horses was a fight. They were

00:17:32.650 --> 00:17:39.130
a pain in the butt. They were a -holes. I struggled

00:17:39.130 --> 00:17:41.349
with everything I did there. Nothing's any fun,

00:17:41.470 --> 00:17:43.349
especially trail rides. Trail rides are no fun

00:17:43.349 --> 00:17:46.650
because the horse is always acting up. And amazingly,

00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:49.089
after owning horses for more than 20 years, I

00:17:49.089 --> 00:17:53.210
found out I didn't understand horses. And I call

00:17:53.210 --> 00:17:56.430
this a God wink because faith was a big part

00:17:56.430 --> 00:17:59.349
of this also. I had lost my faith, especially

00:17:59.349 --> 00:18:02.569
over incidents with dead children out on the

00:18:02.569 --> 00:18:05.009
street. I got angry at God and tried to walk

00:18:05.009 --> 00:18:11.359
away for a while. But I opened a VFW magazine

00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.259
one day that came in the mail, and there's an

00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:16.720
article about this model of equine -assisted

00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.960
psychotherapy, using horses as an adjunct to

00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.839
mental health counseling. And I'm like, wow.

00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.500
And I found this program east of Columbus, and

00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:29.940
I went there, and I'm like, holy smokes, the

00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:33.380
horses aren't the problem, it's me. I truly didn't

00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:36.400
understand their psyche and their nature. And

00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.940
instead of trying to control horses, we've learned

00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:43.460
to connect with horses. And as I started getting

00:18:43.460 --> 00:18:46.640
well, I realized I could probably do this. And

00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.880
so we started our little nonprofit. My wife,

00:18:48.980 --> 00:18:51.859
God bless her, she does all the financial management.

00:18:52.019 --> 00:18:55.700
And she just finished the annual tax fundraising

00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:58.799
reporting to the Secretary of State or the county

00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:00.940
auditor, whoever it goes to. I couldn't do it

00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:03.359
without her because I'm not smart enough to do

00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.400
that kind of stuff. I'm really good with a manure

00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:11.759
fork, though. And so we just started seeing folks

00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:15.000
here at home. We do not charge anything for it

00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.740
because I'm blessed. I have a state retirement

00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:21.460
plus a military pension and military health care.

00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:26.519
And she's a retired RN. So we don't charge. All

00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.079
donations go to the program expenses. Insurance

00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:31.500
is expensive because insurance companies think.

00:19:31.900 --> 00:19:34.599
Horses bite and kick and kill people every day.

00:19:35.299 --> 00:19:40.579
And it hasn't been my experience, but it just

00:19:40.579 --> 00:19:43.779
continued to grow and grow. And then I was invited

00:19:43.779 --> 00:19:48.299
to start facilitating veterans over in Licking

00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:52.420
County where I had originally gone. And so I

00:19:52.420 --> 00:19:55.940
would travel over there and then eventually Sable

00:19:55.940 --> 00:19:58.420
Warrior came to Ohio. I was invited to get involved

00:19:58.420 --> 00:20:04.400
with them. Then a couple other farms, like the

00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.420
farm I went to this morning. So these different

00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:10.420
spaces with different horses, but it's always

00:20:10.420 --> 00:20:13.700
the same with the horse because they're all outstanding

00:20:13.700 --> 00:20:17.819
therapists by nature. And so I get to see that.

00:20:17.900 --> 00:20:20.180
And I've only a couple of horses in 11 years

00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:22.339
in all these different places that really didn't

00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:25.480
do well with this model of being on the ground

00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:29.160
and moving freely. We're not riding. And you're

00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:30.980
learning about yourself through one -on -one

00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:32.740
interaction with the horse, as you did in the

00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:36.380
round pen out at the fairgrounds. And that's

00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:39.779
all about their nature. But Sable Warrior had

00:20:39.779 --> 00:20:43.799
a five -day curriculum at the time, and a full

00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:47.339
day of that was equine experience. And they moved

00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:49.799
into Licking County and reached out and contacted

00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:54.440
the farm over there. It's called PBJ, about hosting

00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:57.740
that. And Brad Gallop, I'm sure you know Brad.

00:20:59.439 --> 00:21:02.900
was doing the equine facilitator role out in

00:21:02.900 --> 00:21:08.700
California. And I was invited to attend the first

00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:13.220
cohort in Ohio as a so -called witness. And Adam

00:21:13.220 --> 00:21:16.680
Carr said, he said, I want you to attend as a

00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.279
witness. I said, so I just sit in the back and

00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:20.119
watch. He goes, no, you sit with everybody else

00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:26.269
and pretend you need it. And he lied to me. We

00:21:26.269 --> 00:21:30.849
all need it. And it was amazing. Two things that

00:21:30.849 --> 00:21:33.650
just blew me away that I still and I just talked

00:21:33.650 --> 00:21:35.630
about this this morning with my veterans group

00:21:35.630 --> 00:21:39.230
is first the ACEs and understanding that and

00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:45.130
then going back through ancestry, finding my

00:21:45.130 --> 00:21:47.450
birth father's family, finding out about my first

00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:50.109
five years, all the craziness that happened.

00:21:50.730 --> 00:21:52.690
that I didn't even know was still in there affecting

00:21:52.690 --> 00:21:57.970
my adult life. And then warrior meditation. As

00:21:57.970 --> 00:22:01.450
I said, I'm a hillbilly from down home, and I

00:22:01.450 --> 00:22:03.809
live five miles from a quaint little village

00:22:03.809 --> 00:22:07.130
called Yellow Springs, Ohio, which is known for

00:22:07.130 --> 00:22:10.960
its kind of... uh 60s vibe and uh you know people

00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.119
joke about the the hippies in yellow springs

00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:16.440
and uh it's a beautiful little town but your

00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:18.599
meditation was something they do not something

00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:22.759
this redneck does and now now i teach warrior

00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:25.519
meditation in the arena and lawn chairs with

00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:28.619
horses loose and it's amazing to watch how the

00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:32.019
horses react to our energy when it changes and

00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:34.619
so now i'm blessed to be alcohol free medication

00:22:34.619 --> 00:22:38.440
free And that includes over 20 years of high

00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:41.920
blood pressure medication, which I think after

00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.220
about three months of warrior meditation, I started

00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:47.480
feeling dizzy. And my wife, the nurse, starts

00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:50.380
checking. And she thought I took too much medication

00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:52.779
because my blood pressure was so low. And I said,

00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:56.180
nope. So with the doctor's approval, weaned off

00:22:56.180 --> 00:23:00.200
of that also. And then it just, again, it kept

00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:04.160
me. kept growing and as i'm as busy as i want

00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:08.279
to be and it's been a blessing to uh horses have

00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:12.200
led us to touch a lot of lives i don't know if

00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.400
you got it go ahead yeah no no i was gonna say

00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:18.079
so you mentioned saver warrior and i always credit

00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.299
jake clark the founder for educating me on the

00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.480
Impact of childhood trauma, not only on us in

00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.140
uniform, but sending us into uniform in the first

00:23:29.140 --> 00:23:34.220
place. And if my memory serves me right, we collectively

00:23:34.220 --> 00:23:36.700
military first responders on average have aces

00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:41.539
of six and so do incarcerated people. So you've

00:23:41.539 --> 00:23:44.059
got these people and then there's a crossroads

00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:47.900
there. I think it's like, you know, the Kaiser

00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:50.759
Permanente level was if you score higher than

00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.859
four, you have adult child. alcoholic dysfunction,

00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:59.220
family kind of childhood trauma. And the last

00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:01.220
I remember they published, the average for Sable

00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:08.519
Warrior was 6 .9. Yeah. And then the other factors

00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:10.380
there and then understanding that and then going

00:24:10.380 --> 00:24:13.319
through the 12 -step ACOA program and healing

00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:17.400
all that, you heal that wound under the adult

00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:22.180
wound and it makes things a lot easier. understanding

00:24:22.180 --> 00:24:25.839
that all that's stuck in there and little pieces

00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:29.180
of it uh i'm pretty sure i was a workaholic adrenaline

00:24:29.180 --> 00:24:32.220
junkie overachiever because i'm trying to prove

00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:35.559
to my birth father who abandoned me that i shouldn't

00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:37.220
have been abandoned somewhere psychologically

00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:39.259
i talked to one of my therapist partners about

00:24:39.259 --> 00:24:45.349
that that this need to be All the uniform and

00:24:45.349 --> 00:24:49.150
the titles and the badges and baubles. I used

00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:51.190
a reserve GI Bill. I got three college degrees.

00:24:51.849 --> 00:24:55.049
Didn't need them, but by gosh, I'm going to put

00:24:55.049 --> 00:24:59.329
something else on the wall. And I'm just grateful

00:24:59.329 --> 00:25:02.210
that, number one, praise God that I survived

00:25:02.210 --> 00:25:05.490
a lot of dumb stuff. And then my wife and family

00:25:05.490 --> 00:25:07.109
supported me while I was out there trying to

00:25:07.109 --> 00:25:12.109
be Captain America. And the horses have just

00:25:12.109 --> 00:25:17.140
been amazing. Well, I think when you hear this,

00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:19.960
especially, you know, one or both parents aren't

00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.200
there anymore or one or both parents, you know,

00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:25.940
fell into addiction. You hear this over and over

00:25:25.940 --> 00:25:29.559
again. Why wasn't I enough for that parent to

00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:31.599
be present, that parent to put the bottle down,

00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:33.880
whatever it was? And then we're chasing that.

00:25:34.180 --> 00:25:37.079
What I think is interesting now as we sit here,

00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:39.680
I've been doing this show for nine years now.

00:25:40.250 --> 00:25:42.250
And so there's been this incredible education

00:25:42.250 --> 00:25:45.250
and all these lived experiences. And you see

00:25:45.250 --> 00:25:48.430
the Venn diagram just overlaps so, so strongly.

00:25:48.470 --> 00:25:51.190
Almost every single person that I've had on the

00:25:51.190 --> 00:25:54.730
show has had, I would argue, significant childhood

00:25:54.730 --> 00:25:56.910
trauma, whether that's just abandonment, whether

00:25:56.910 --> 00:25:59.809
that's sexual abuse, whatever it is, which is

00:25:59.809 --> 00:26:03.630
so much more prevalent than I realized. But understanding

00:26:03.630 --> 00:26:07.009
that that then sends a lot of us into uniform.

00:26:07.779 --> 00:26:10.299
I really feel like we need to have a conversation

00:26:10.299 --> 00:26:14.579
at the front door saying, hey, you know, a lot

00:26:14.579 --> 00:26:16.779
of us that are here, this is what drove us here.

00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:19.799
And that doesn't have to be a fracture in your

00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:21.880
foundation, but it will be if you just bury it

00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:24.059
down and don't talk about it. But if we start

00:26:24.059 --> 00:26:27.220
addressing that right from day one and, you know,

00:26:27.220 --> 00:26:29.319
the same as we're going to do PT for your body,

00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.000
we're going to do PT for your mind and we'll

00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:32.839
have counseling sessions. Or, I mean, if they're

00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:34.960
really proactive, you know, equine therapy and,

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:38.579
you know, whatever else is out there. Now you're

00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:42.180
actually turning those fractures into resilience,

00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:45.140
into strength. And I feel like that would be

00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:49.759
the kind of 2026 turning the page in the mental

00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:53.619
health from. We keep dying very, very sad story

00:26:53.619 --> 00:26:55.579
to, well, let's forge performance. And if we

00:26:55.579 --> 00:26:57.599
acknowledge that there is going to be that element,

00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:01.680
most likely in our formative years, we can address

00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:03.640
it at the front door and then we can turn it

00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:05.759
into strength. And now we're more empathetic

00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.500
and more resilient than we were. And you don't

00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:11.119
have that proverbial bucket already half full

00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:13.099
anymore. You've been able to empty a lot of it

00:27:13.099 --> 00:27:15.759
and give you the capacity to deal with what we're

00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:17.500
going to have to see and do in our profession.

00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:22.500
That's a great way to look at it, and I kind

00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:28.259
of relate to it. Thanks to a couple of pastor

00:27:28.259 --> 00:27:30.480
mentors, I got certified as a chaplain, mainly

00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:32.859
for crisis intervention, critical incident stress

00:27:32.859 --> 00:27:36.839
stuff. And a few years ago, our chaplain retired,

00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:39.740
and the chief reached out to my fire department,

00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:41.960
where I used to be chief, asked me if I would

00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:43.720
come back and serve as chaplain. It's a volunteer

00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:47.589
role. I go to emergencies and... minister of

00:27:47.589 --> 00:27:50.329
the family of a death or I help them get Red

00:27:50.329 --> 00:27:53.009
Cross housing from a fire. But my most important

00:27:53.009 --> 00:27:56.049
mission, as I told the chief, is I'm having these

00:27:56.049 --> 00:27:59.089
open, honest talks around the kitchen table about

00:27:59.089 --> 00:28:01.690
what we're talking about now. If you don't want,

00:28:01.809 --> 00:28:04.950
you know, if you do all this dysfunctional stuff,

00:28:05.009 --> 00:28:07.230
trying to be the rescuer that you needed as a

00:28:07.230 --> 00:28:10.150
child, then you're just going to end up miserable.

00:28:10.930 --> 00:28:13.309
And I don't want to see people. miserable like

00:28:13.309 --> 00:28:16.190
a lot of people and myself i've seen and so that's

00:28:16.190 --> 00:28:19.089
we've created this you know not every department's

00:28:19.089 --> 00:28:20.890
doing this but we got to change the culture we

00:28:20.890 --> 00:28:23.410
got to let our people be human because we start

00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:25.289
off by telling the little boys they can't cry

00:28:25.289 --> 00:28:28.430
and then we put everybody in a career field where

00:28:28.430 --> 00:28:30.269
you're supposed to be tough suck it up and pretend

00:28:30.269 --> 00:28:33.430
it didn't happen and that just builds up and

00:28:33.430 --> 00:28:36.750
so the more we can openly heal that more than

00:28:36.750 --> 00:28:40.069
that i'd never heard of earlier in my career

00:28:40.069 --> 00:28:42.579
that you would take a crew out of service and

00:28:42.579 --> 00:28:44.519
even send them home after a critical incident.

00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:50.559
I remember in paramedic school in 1983, the only

00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:53.859
discussion of any critical incidents, and I think

00:28:53.859 --> 00:28:56.079
the example was, what if you have a bad call

00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.859
and a dead child? The instructor literally said,

00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:01.759
go back and wash and wax your trucks. You'll

00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:06.210
feel better. I hate doing it any time. That would

00:29:06.210 --> 00:29:08.549
make me feel worse regardless. And, of course,

00:29:08.569 --> 00:29:10.410
there was no employee assistance program. There

00:29:10.410 --> 00:29:12.569
was no referrals to mental health. It was that

00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:15.069
thing you never talk about, never speak of. You

00:29:15.069 --> 00:29:17.430
know, I had fatal fire of a two -year -old when

00:29:17.430 --> 00:29:19.269
my youngest son was two, and we went back and

00:29:19.269 --> 00:29:21.650
sat around the table, and basically after we

00:29:21.650 --> 00:29:23.410
got everything cleaned up and loaded, it was,

00:29:23.430 --> 00:29:27.549
okay, who's cooking, what's for lunch? And that

00:29:27.549 --> 00:29:30.049
was the first, and we talk in the critical incident

00:29:30.049 --> 00:29:32.490
model, the first, the worst, and the most recent.

00:29:32.910 --> 00:29:35.089
that's the first I can put my finger on that

00:29:35.089 --> 00:29:37.950
really shook me and stayed with me for years

00:29:37.950 --> 00:29:42.150
that I couldn't understand and never got to heal.

00:29:43.269 --> 00:29:47.230
So I think it's great that we're slowly changing

00:29:47.230 --> 00:29:53.170
that culture and making it okay to be, as I always

00:29:53.170 --> 00:29:56.690
say to my folks, you need... you need physical

00:29:56.690 --> 00:29:59.109
fitness obviously we the culture started to change

00:29:59.109 --> 00:30:01.569
in that there in the 90s finally because we didn't

00:30:01.569 --> 00:30:04.690
even talk about that in the 70s and 80s you need

00:30:04.690 --> 00:30:07.950
mental uh health and indeed spiritual wellness

00:30:07.950 --> 00:30:10.369
uh whatever your higher power is that controls

00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:12.369
things that you can't control otherwise you stay

00:30:12.369 --> 00:30:14.029
angry all the time that you're not in control

00:30:14.029 --> 00:30:17.769
and um we we talk about those three things all

00:30:17.769 --> 00:30:22.650
the time and uh and then um continuing to work

00:30:22.650 --> 00:30:25.539
you know and i Here at Finally Home Farm, we

00:30:25.539 --> 00:30:27.400
strictly work with veterans and first responders

00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:31.380
because that's my wheelhouse. I'm blessed I got

00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:34.099
this other local program. I had an active reservist

00:30:34.099 --> 00:30:36.119
call me the other day but wanted some help for

00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.839
his 12 -year -old daughter. Well, I'm not comfortable

00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:41.339
in that environment because I'm certified in

00:30:41.339 --> 00:30:44.220
peer support for the adult warrior experience,

00:30:44.420 --> 00:30:47.400
but not in that. So I sent him to this other

00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:49.640
farm where they do specialize in working with

00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:52.980
children and horses. And the other key thing

00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:56.119
about this model is it's in partnership with

00:30:56.119 --> 00:31:00.400
mental health professionals and clinicians. The

00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:03.259
program I'm certified by is called EGALA, the

00:31:03.259 --> 00:31:05.240
Equine Assisted Growth and Learning Association.

00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.019
And it was started about 25 years ago, I think

00:31:09.019 --> 00:31:11.619
26 years ago. These were mental health professionals

00:31:11.619 --> 00:31:14.579
who also owned horses, who understood their psyche

00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:17.779
and developed this model of how to use them in

00:31:17.779 --> 00:31:22.480
moving in a space with a human. to learn about

00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.400
yourself. And that's using the natural psyche

00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:28.980
of the horse. And so in a perfect world, the

00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:31.359
mental health provider is in the arena with us.

00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:34.740
If the mental health partners can't be there,

00:31:34.940 --> 00:31:37.579
then we do equine assisted learning. One of the

00:31:37.579 --> 00:31:40.920
things I almost insist, anybody that comes to

00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.619
me first and they don't have a therapist, I'll

00:31:44.619 --> 00:31:47.339
refer them either to the vet center, the VA,

00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:49.700
or I have two therapists in the community that

00:31:50.750 --> 00:31:53.369
really specialize in first responder populations.

00:31:53.809 --> 00:31:57.109
I said, I want to do this in partnership. There's

00:31:57.109 --> 00:32:01.049
no miracles. There's no magic pill. And I'm not

00:32:01.049 --> 00:32:03.549
the lone ranger here. You need something that

00:32:03.549 --> 00:32:05.390
comes out this week in the barn. I want you to

00:32:05.390 --> 00:32:07.369
have that clinician to sit down in the office

00:32:07.369 --> 00:32:10.029
and process it with, and we'll work back and

00:32:10.029 --> 00:32:13.109
forth together. But these other two therapists

00:32:13.109 --> 00:32:17.269
actually tend to send people to me to work together.

00:32:17.769 --> 00:32:20.569
uh one of them she'll literally because she knows

00:32:20.569 --> 00:32:23.130
how we are she's a former fire medic her husband's

00:32:23.130 --> 00:32:25.750
a police officer uh when she wants to refer someone

00:32:25.750 --> 00:32:27.869
she'll call me from the office with them sitting

00:32:27.869 --> 00:32:31.230
there and say make the first appointment so uh

00:32:31.230 --> 00:32:33.589
next week i'm not bugging you for three weeks

00:32:33.589 --> 00:32:36.430
and we've had a great relationship and and i

00:32:36.430 --> 00:32:38.670
think we've done a lot of good for a lot of uh

00:32:38.670 --> 00:32:42.990
and uh jim bernick is one of those people that

00:32:42.990 --> 00:32:45.049
i've met in that journey with all those people

00:32:45.049 --> 00:32:49.829
there and um Then the VA has been a tougher nut

00:32:49.829 --> 00:32:53.569
to crack. Columbus VA has been very open. Dayton

00:32:53.569 --> 00:32:56.230
VA, not so much. It all depends on who the medical

00:32:56.230 --> 00:32:59.869
director is. Wright -Patterson Hospital is no

00:32:59.869 --> 00:33:02.309
man's land, so it's not a VA issue. I know a

00:33:02.309 --> 00:33:05.009
lot of military veterans get a grievance with

00:33:05.009 --> 00:33:07.750
the VA. I'm personally a happy customer, and

00:33:07.750 --> 00:33:09.789
any service I've needed from them has been fine

00:33:09.789 --> 00:33:13.980
from a reserve side of my career. but right right

00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:16.000
pad hospital won't even talk to me at least i

00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.579
got some meetings at dayton va and i've developed

00:33:18.579 --> 00:33:21.559
partnerships with the adaptive sports office

00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:24.119
and the whole health office and the peer support

00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.660
office mental health just says you know we don't

00:33:27.660 --> 00:33:31.380
recognize alternative therapies the great thing

00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:35.119
is though the va system has these uh field places

00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:38.799
called vet centers which do counseling only,

00:33:38.859 --> 00:33:41.160
no diagnosis or medication prescriptions and

00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:43.619
stuff. And we have one of those in our area also.

00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:46.519
And they are all in. They've been sending people

00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:48.940
to me. They've been coming out themselves. And

00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:50.799
next month, we're going to be starting a weekly

00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:53.200
group that they're going to bring out of veterans,

00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:55.420
bring them out to the barn for an equine learning

00:33:55.420 --> 00:34:00.160
experience. And so that's been a, like I said,

00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:06.980
nothing I'm doing was planned. Little things

00:34:06.980 --> 00:34:11.519
keep happening. It's amazing. What's really sad

00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:13.920
is with the veterans that have been on here,

00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:18.139
I would say at least 90 % have the same story.

00:34:18.699 --> 00:34:21.360
I went in there, they prescribed me meds and

00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:24.159
it didn't help or it made it worse. And so you

00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:26.139
think if that was, you know, the overarching.

00:34:26.860 --> 00:34:28.260
you know, feedback that they're getting. And

00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:31.119
again, in your exact example, my wife just did

00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.579
a residency or an externship, excuse me, at the

00:34:34.579 --> 00:34:37.019
VAs in Gainesville and the villages here as an

00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:39.300
optometrist. And she said both of them were phenomenal.

00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:41.960
So when it comes to eye care, their veterans

00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:45.320
are getting great, great service. But I think

00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:47.960
it's not the practitioners, but the system that

00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:50.239
a lot of these VA mental health groups are working

00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:53.579
under, you know, that we know now, and I've learned

00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:56.239
this as a complete, you know. white belt, if

00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:59.920
you like, that. And so one of my guests recently,

00:35:00.059 --> 00:35:02.400
Dave Rabin, Dr. Dave Rabin, just articulated

00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.460
it perfectly. He said, psych meds, you know,

00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:07.099
most psych meds, you know, anxiety, depression,

00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:11.039
et cetera, are merely just to stabilize the person

00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:13.360
until you can get the help that they need. But

00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:15.420
that's not how we view it in America. It's not

00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:17.760
how it's sold to us in America. We have bloody

00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.219
television commercials all the time, you know,

00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:22.719
telling us about this. And then again, back to

00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:25.519
OxyContin, same thing, this pressure sales. But

00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:27.719
it's merely just to get you to a point where

00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.539
you can then figure out your talk therapy, your

00:35:31.539 --> 00:35:34.460
equine therapy, maybe even a psilocybin or Ibogaine

00:35:34.460 --> 00:35:37.360
experience or Save a Warrior or whatever your

00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:40.199
unique toolbox is. So then you're getting back

00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.500
to where you get to the nucleus of the thing

00:35:42.500 --> 00:35:44.639
because obviously pills aren't going to help

00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:47.760
you figure out that you're struggling with abandonment

00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.199
issues after your parent left when you were tiny.

00:35:54.380 --> 00:35:57.539
An immigrant from across the pond who just started

00:35:57.539 --> 00:36:00.460
a podcast can figure this stuff out through just

00:36:00.460 --> 00:36:03.039
listening to people. Why are our veterans in

00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:04.900
the VA system still having the same problem?

00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:07.360
And, you know, our civilians too. Most people

00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.980
think that the only answer is a therapist and

00:36:10.980 --> 00:36:13.579
drugs. That's it. When there are so many more

00:36:13.579 --> 00:36:15.420
that then might open the door and then make your

00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:18.059
therapist a lot more effective. But the drugs,

00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:20.960
if they were viewed just as a tourniquet, I'm

00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:22.980
bleeding to death. I put a tourniquet on my leg.

00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:25.980
okay, I still need to go get surgery and physical

00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:29.300
therapy and wound care, but the tourniquet at

00:36:29.300 --> 00:36:31.920
least is keeping me alive. If we could just view

00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.380
the drugs as that, then it would change the philosophy

00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:36.480
in the VA because they're like, okay, well, that's

00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:39.079
not a solution, is it? So then what other solutions

00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:42.639
can we use after we stabilize our veterans who

00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:44.980
are struggling so then we can get them off these

00:36:44.980 --> 00:36:47.679
pills? And I had a Swedish psychiatrist saying

00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:50.659
in Sweden, they're not allowed to prescribe them

00:36:50.659 --> 00:36:53.389
longer than six months, period. So you've got

00:36:53.389 --> 00:36:55.369
six months to figure out modalities that will

00:36:55.369 --> 00:36:59.289
get people weaned off. I like that. I did some

00:36:59.289 --> 00:37:02.909
time on our local, every county in Ohio has a

00:37:02.909 --> 00:37:05.469
service office for veterans. It's all staffed

00:37:05.469 --> 00:37:07.170
by veterans. There's a five -member board of

00:37:07.170 --> 00:37:10.369
veterans. And I served 13 years on that, and

00:37:10.369 --> 00:37:16.530
I learned a lot. And the permanence of these

00:37:16.530 --> 00:37:18.989
disability ratings, and I don't begrudge anybody

00:37:18.989 --> 00:37:22.239
that has issues that affect their life. But it

00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.440
seemed almost too easy. And when I was diagnosed

00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.159
in 2010 with PTSD, the first thing they did is

00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:32.280
say, do you want to file for disability? I'm

00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.119
like, no, I was working full time in state law

00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:36.800
enforcement and I don't even want anybody to

00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.059
know I'm here. And it doesn't have to be permanent.

00:37:42.099 --> 00:37:44.519
I don't believe in the D anymore. It's not a

00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:48.250
disorder. Post -traumatic stress growth. and

00:37:48.250 --> 00:37:51.170
recovery. It's an injury. It's a moral injury,

00:37:51.289 --> 00:37:53.769
an emotional wound that can be healed. And we

00:37:53.769 --> 00:37:56.670
meet so many veterans. I remember a guy at Save

00:37:56.670 --> 00:37:59.969
a Warrior that I was back as a shepherd. When

00:37:59.969 --> 00:38:03.250
we started talking about being totally at peace

00:38:03.250 --> 00:38:06.489
and weaning off all medications, and he goes,

00:38:06.610 --> 00:38:10.010
well, I might lose my disability rating. I'm

00:38:10.010 --> 00:38:12.889
100 % service -connected, PTSD, unemployable.

00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:15.250
And I remember Jake Clark looked at him. He says,

00:38:15.389 --> 00:38:18.619
you know, You can trade a check every month.

00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:20.480
If that's what you want, you want a check to

00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.400
be disabled the rest of your life every month,

00:38:22.539 --> 00:38:25.019
then that's the path you choose. But that's not

00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:28.980
life. Say, I can't, I can't, I can't. I get paid

00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:33.920
not to. And so I encourage everyone, pray for

00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:36.460
everyone that comes to see me, a veteran I'm

00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:38.659
working with right now. I said, just consider

00:38:38.659 --> 00:38:40.840
the fact that you could go back to work. You

00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:43.219
could have purpose, a little money in your pocket

00:38:43.219 --> 00:38:47.329
and experience out there. And maybe they do reduce

00:38:47.329 --> 00:38:50.710
the disability rating a little bit. But obviously,

00:38:50.809 --> 00:38:52.590
the way you're living right now isn't working

00:38:52.590 --> 00:38:55.969
because you're in pain still. The meds aren't

00:38:55.969 --> 00:38:58.909
working. They're simply masking symptoms. Those

00:38:58.909 --> 00:39:00.929
are supposed to be temporary, not a lifelong

00:39:00.929 --> 00:39:05.010
thing. And I don't know if it's because I don't

00:39:05.010 --> 00:39:07.090
think they're bad people, but are they overwhelmed

00:39:07.090 --> 00:39:11.130
with too many veterans or they're just stuck?

00:39:11.909 --> 00:39:15.150
As I've said, a medical director at the VA says,

00:39:15.429 --> 00:39:20.250
nope, we don't believe in alternatives. They

00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:23.070
went to school for a lot of years to get a big

00:39:23.070 --> 00:39:25.070
diploma on the wall that tells them they know

00:39:25.070 --> 00:39:28.230
everything. And some old fat man with a horse

00:39:28.230 --> 00:39:32.889
can do something? Wait a minute. And I actually

00:39:32.889 --> 00:39:38.059
had someone. from the VA, walked past my table,

00:39:38.179 --> 00:39:42.320
a very high person in our local VA, walked past

00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:46.820
my table at a resource fair, and one of the employees

00:39:46.820 --> 00:39:48.440
who knew me was standing there talking and said,

00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:51.380
hey, come here, look at this. And with simply

00:39:51.380 --> 00:39:54.179
a look over her shoulder, she says, no, that's

00:39:54.179 --> 00:39:56.659
a lawsuit waiting to happen. She wouldn't even

00:39:56.659 --> 00:40:01.070
talk to me because the stigma. All firefighters

00:40:01.070 --> 00:40:03.769
are lazy. All cops are fat and eat donuts. All

00:40:03.769 --> 00:40:06.469
veterans are crazy and violent. All horses bite

00:40:06.469 --> 00:40:09.750
and kick. None of the above. And in fact, in

00:40:09.750 --> 00:40:13.230
11 years of doing this at four different farms

00:40:13.230 --> 00:40:16.429
with probably 20 total different horses, only

00:40:16.429 --> 00:40:20.610
once did I see even a nip with teeth that left

00:40:20.610 --> 00:40:22.969
a bruise on a guy's arm during a stable warrior

00:40:22.969 --> 00:40:25.610
cohort. And he got a huge metaphor message out

00:40:25.610 --> 00:40:27.800
of that. He was walking around showing people,

00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:32.679
hey, the horse told me this. And I tell people

00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:36.400
all the time, the horse's natural psyche, first

00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:38.900
of all, they're not big dogs. And people are

00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:42.260
so familiar with dogs. They're a prey animal,

00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:45.300
whereas a dog is a predator. And as prey animals,

00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:47.139
they've been hunted and killed by everything

00:40:47.139 --> 00:40:50.320
on earth through history, including man. Yet

00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:55.210
they don't walk around in fear. Are they aware

00:40:55.210 --> 00:40:56.869
of their surroundings? Absolutely. But you'd

00:40:56.869 --> 00:40:58.690
think if everything's trying to kill you, you'd

00:40:58.690 --> 00:41:00.989
walk around paranoid looking over your shoulder.

00:41:01.090 --> 00:41:03.969
And horses don't do that. They live totally in

00:41:03.969 --> 00:41:06.929
the moment. They have a great memory, but they

00:41:06.929 --> 00:41:11.050
don't carry the pain and the emotions from the

00:41:11.050 --> 00:41:13.449
past like we do. And that's a great description

00:41:13.449 --> 00:41:16.469
I heard that I repeat all the time. Trauma is

00:41:16.469 --> 00:41:18.369
the memory with the emotions still attached.

00:41:19.349 --> 00:41:21.750
And if we don't heal the emotions, and of course

00:41:21.750 --> 00:41:24.969
we know that's through lots of tears, then we're

00:41:24.969 --> 00:41:28.190
just going to keep feeling it. And horses also

00:41:28.190 --> 00:41:29.789
don't worry about the future. They don't try

00:41:29.789 --> 00:41:32.369
to reach out and control tomorrow. And then the

00:41:32.369 --> 00:41:34.409
other key thing we learn from them is they are

00:41:34.409 --> 00:41:36.510
a herd animal. They are hardwired to be connected.

00:41:37.210 --> 00:41:39.469
That's why that experience between you and the

00:41:39.469 --> 00:41:41.409
horse and that round pen with you as the only

00:41:41.409 --> 00:41:44.329
other being in there, that's how it works. If

00:41:44.329 --> 00:41:47.039
the horse feels safe with your energy, And that's

00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.380
how they communicate with energy. They radiate

00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:52.300
it. They receive it. Feels good about that. It's

00:41:52.300 --> 00:41:53.739
going to move in and want to be close to you.

00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:56.980
If it moves away, that's not judgmental. That's

00:41:56.980 --> 00:42:00.280
not ego. That's a message to me. And that's what

00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:02.159
my horses were telling me before I got well.

00:42:02.900 --> 00:42:05.019
We don't feel safe with you. We're going to move

00:42:05.019 --> 00:42:08.039
over here because you're radiating negative energy.

00:42:08.659 --> 00:42:11.280
And that's how the therapy model works. It's

00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:15.550
all about learning. And then when you reach that,

00:42:15.570 --> 00:42:17.670
that you get out of your head into your heart

00:42:17.670 --> 00:42:20.349
and you change your energy and you find yourself

00:42:20.349 --> 00:42:23.429
with this thousand pound animal that's standing

00:42:23.429 --> 00:42:25.550
there relaxed with his head down and you're hugging

00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:28.289
it. It's just really, it's the most powerful

00:42:28.289 --> 00:42:30.469
connection you'll ever have with another being.

00:42:30.570 --> 00:42:32.590
And there's no transaction there. That horse

00:42:32.590 --> 00:42:34.690
wants nothing from you except to be connected.

00:42:35.349 --> 00:42:38.389
And that's hard to find in life with humans.

00:42:39.210 --> 00:42:41.190
And so that's how the learning happens through

00:42:41.190 --> 00:42:43.050
all these different exercises on the ground,

00:42:43.170 --> 00:42:45.369
moving, doing, getting feedback from the horse.

00:42:46.590 --> 00:42:50.289
I used to have a client that she got very attached

00:42:50.289 --> 00:42:52.429
to one particular horse. And when I brought a

00:42:52.429 --> 00:42:54.230
different horse in one week, she got very upset.

00:42:54.929 --> 00:42:57.230
And I said, you know, this isn't about the horse.

00:42:57.409 --> 00:42:59.489
Well, it is for me. I'm only here because of

00:42:59.489 --> 00:43:01.909
the horse. I said, no, it's about you and what

00:43:01.909 --> 00:43:04.010
you can learn from any horse because all horses

00:43:04.010 --> 00:43:08.190
can do this. And my friends at PBJ, actually,

00:43:08.250 --> 00:43:10.309
they do a lot of work with, they're a full -time

00:43:10.309 --> 00:43:13.190
mental health on a horse farm. They do a lot

00:43:13.190 --> 00:43:16.130
of work with children. They use donkeys, which

00:43:16.130 --> 00:43:19.329
have that same equine psyche of mindfulness,

00:43:19.630 --> 00:43:23.289
presence, connection, communication, nonverbal

00:43:23.289 --> 00:43:27.610
communication. And so it never gets old. That's

00:43:27.610 --> 00:43:32.389
what's fun. And I've seen a couple of miracles.

00:43:33.609 --> 00:43:37.150
You know good old Larry at Save a Warrior. I

00:43:37.150 --> 00:43:39.329
don't know. I only know the Save a Warrior. It's

00:43:39.329 --> 00:43:42.829
Matt Fierenzer. I went to Anaheim. I was a firefighter

00:43:42.829 --> 00:43:45.030
with him. Obviously, Jim has gone through, Jake.

00:43:45.650 --> 00:43:47.650
But I never actually went through it myself,

00:43:47.809 --> 00:43:50.030
so I don't know some of the other guys there.

00:43:50.190 --> 00:43:54.570
I just used the second cohort in Ohio in which

00:43:54.570 --> 00:43:58.449
I was facilitating the XY experience, and that

00:43:58.449 --> 00:44:01.590
was 058, and that was Larry Turner. And Larry,

00:44:01.650 --> 00:44:05.929
the transformation from him then to him now is

00:44:05.929 --> 00:44:10.389
just miraculous. And he had a big turn in the

00:44:10.389 --> 00:44:15.070
round pen with the horse, which then he then

00:44:15.070 --> 00:44:17.489
got upset with tears in his eyes and called me

00:44:17.489 --> 00:44:20.710
a BS artist and accused me of teaching the horse

00:44:20.710 --> 00:44:25.130
stupid partying tricks. Yeah. And I love that

00:44:25.130 --> 00:44:28.269
guy. And it's just amazing to have met him then

00:44:28.269 --> 00:44:31.460
and now. what he's doing with Sable Warrior as

00:44:31.460 --> 00:44:34.579
an employee and facilitator with them. And so

00:44:34.579 --> 00:44:39.159
it's just a piece of it. In combination with

00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:42.019
a lot of reading, that's the other thing Sable

00:44:42.019 --> 00:44:44.260
Warrior exposed me to is the books I would never

00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:48.059
have read if I hadn't been exposed to that and

00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:51.699
learning the owner's manual for this CPU between

00:44:51.699 --> 00:44:56.829
my ears. And then the... Professional mental

00:44:56.829 --> 00:44:59.389
health and with a clinician that's open enough

00:44:59.389 --> 00:45:03.469
to try something non -traditional in whatever

00:45:03.469 --> 00:45:05.849
those areas are. I'm not as familiar with the

00:45:05.849 --> 00:45:09.230
ones that you're working on, but equine is just

00:45:09.230 --> 00:45:11.610
a piece that may or may not. Some people don't

00:45:11.610 --> 00:45:15.769
get it. Most of them do. And we've had a lot

00:45:15.769 --> 00:45:17.750
of positive feedback. We've blessed probably

00:45:17.750 --> 00:45:21.650
in total over a thousand warriors we've touched

00:45:21.650 --> 00:45:26.750
in the past 11 years. I encourage anyone out

00:45:26.750 --> 00:45:29.869
there to look for an equine -assisted therapy

00:45:29.869 --> 00:45:34.809
place that's doing the ground model mental health

00:45:34.809 --> 00:45:37.090
adjunct. I mean, riding a horse is a different

00:45:37.090 --> 00:45:39.929
experience. There's got to be some transaction

00:45:39.929 --> 00:45:41.869
there, and there's got to be some control there.

00:45:42.170 --> 00:45:45.250
And you've got to do all this groundwork before

00:45:45.250 --> 00:45:48.309
you ever get in a saddle. So it's a different

00:45:48.309 --> 00:45:51.409
kind of therapeutic feeling, but the ground -based

00:45:51.409 --> 00:45:55.510
free association can be really powerful. I've

00:45:55.510 --> 00:45:58.610
said this on here a few times because I think

00:45:58.610 --> 00:46:02.130
it's an important conversation as well. For everyone

00:46:02.130 --> 00:46:06.829
who struggled, there's this kind of story of

00:46:06.829 --> 00:46:09.849
more often than not, like I said, childhood trauma

00:46:09.849 --> 00:46:12.050
and then all the compounding things, sleep deprivation,

00:46:12.070 --> 00:46:14.030
the trauma we see at work, organizational betrayal,

00:46:14.250 --> 00:46:15.769
which I want to circle around with you on that

00:46:15.769 --> 00:46:20.239
as well. So many people that come on here have

00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:23.280
been sitting there with that pistol, about to

00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:26.079
take a one -way dive, whatever their mode of

00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:28.920
self -execution is going to be. And I've always

00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:33.320
said, why not me? I am no better a person than

00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:35.300
any of these men and women I've had on the show

00:46:35.300 --> 00:46:38.340
that got to that deepest point or deep in addiction.

00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:41.360
And the only answer I have is when I reflect

00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:44.159
back, and I had some traumatic stuff happen when

00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:45.900
I was young. I almost died in a house fire when

00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:49.440
I was four. A wall collapsed and crushed every

00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:51.559
car in the car park. And my dad managed to just

00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:53.340
drive away. Otherwise, we would have been killed

00:46:53.340 --> 00:46:55.880
there. My parents' divorce was pretty horrific.

00:46:56.059 --> 00:46:59.480
So there was some things. But I grew up on a

00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:01.920
farm. My dad was an equine veterinary surgeon.

00:47:02.059 --> 00:47:04.480
So I grew up around horses. We had real food.

00:47:04.659 --> 00:47:08.099
We were lambing. We were baling hay and all the

00:47:08.099 --> 00:47:11.880
things. So I realized that infused in all this

00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:14.119
trauma was also a lot of healing modalities.

00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:16.969
And now, fast forward. 50 years later, yeah,

00:47:17.070 --> 00:47:19.389
we're understanding. But then it was just my

00:47:19.389 --> 00:47:22.409
life. So I was extremely lucky. That's all it

00:47:22.409 --> 00:47:25.130
was. I just won this genetic lottery where I

00:47:25.130 --> 00:47:28.349
grew up on this place where for all the bad stuff

00:47:28.349 --> 00:47:30.789
that happened, there were these good things woven

00:47:30.789 --> 00:47:34.469
in. But horses are one of them. I mean, we didn't

00:47:34.469 --> 00:47:36.869
have our own horse. So kind of to your point.

00:47:37.500 --> 00:47:39.659
Whoever was boarding horses, those are the ones

00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:41.699
that we would ride. And some were complete lunatics

00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:43.860
that almost killed me. And some, you know, were

00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:46.800
beautifully calm. But I was having to muck out

00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:50.219
stables and lead them and wash them. And so a

00:47:50.219 --> 00:47:52.219
lot of, as you're saying, that groundwork, being

00:47:52.219 --> 00:47:56.059
in the fields with them. And so I saw that, you

00:47:56.059 --> 00:47:58.099
know, in my own childhood. And then I had, I

00:47:58.099 --> 00:47:59.780
think we talked about this, I had Buck Branneman

00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:04.130
on about three or four years ago. And his story,

00:48:04.130 --> 00:48:07.110
I mean, super traumatic childhood. And that was

00:48:07.110 --> 00:48:09.190
what was saved him was the horses. And now he

00:48:09.190 --> 00:48:11.730
teaches other people. And as he said, to your

00:48:11.730 --> 00:48:13.769
point, he's not training horses, he's training

00:48:13.769 --> 00:48:16.030
people, you know, and they're, you know, the

00:48:16.030 --> 00:48:18.789
mirror to the soul, as he says. So I can testify

00:48:18.789 --> 00:48:21.250
from my own childhood. And then, you know, having

00:48:21.250 --> 00:48:24.170
this most recent experience with was it what

00:48:24.170 --> 00:48:27.780
was the name of the horse? I had Doc out there.

00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:30.880
Doc, that's right. Doc. So just a couple of hours

00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:32.920
with Doc. I mean, I felt like I was that little

00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:36.460
kid on the farm again. So I can't emphasize enough

00:48:36.460 --> 00:48:38.460
how important it is for people if they've never

00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:41.320
tried this before to find somewhere near them

00:48:41.320 --> 00:48:43.719
and add this to their kind of mental health toolbox.

00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:47.480
Yeah, outdoors. I always loved being outdoors.

00:48:48.579 --> 00:48:51.139
I ran a paper out every day so I could pay my

00:48:51.139 --> 00:48:53.860
way through scouting and buy my uniforms and

00:48:53.860 --> 00:48:58.760
stuff. I always loved the farm work and working

00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:03.320
with the animals. I call it barn therapy. My

00:49:03.320 --> 00:49:05.539
little piece of heaven here. I'm out there every

00:49:05.539 --> 00:49:08.480
day. In fact, I'll change clothes and be out

00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:11.500
there this afternoon with all the routine chores,

00:49:11.739 --> 00:49:14.039
the taking care. And then trail rides now are

00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:17.300
just bonus because just having these animals

00:49:17.300 --> 00:49:22.159
as part of the family every day. uh, work that

00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:23.780
it takes to take care of them is really not work.

00:49:23.980 --> 00:49:26.659
It's so peaceful and, and just kind of basic

00:49:26.659 --> 00:49:29.820
and, uh, love having the grandkids out here and,

00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:31.440
you know, whatever device you brought with you,

00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:32.980
leave it in the car, leave it in the house. We're

00:49:32.980 --> 00:49:35.480
going to go get dirty. We're going to feed some

00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:37.199
horses. We're going to move some hay bales. We're

00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.400
going to, uh, get the tractor out. If you want

00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:42.380
to, uh, do those kinds of things. I loved that

00:49:42.380 --> 00:49:44.400
growing up. I'd rather be out there than it would

00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:47.800
be at home. And, uh, and so now I get to, uh,

00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:51.650
to share that, that, uh, You mentioned something

00:49:51.650 --> 00:49:57.030
there about, oh, now I've forgotten. Sorry. Oh,

00:49:57.090 --> 00:49:59.809
I know what it is. As I'm getting older also,

00:50:00.050 --> 00:50:04.050
I'm working, I'm taking a beginning beekeeper

00:50:04.050 --> 00:50:06.469
class right now. Something else to putter with

00:50:06.469 --> 00:50:10.789
out here and to be outdoors. I don't watch, I

00:50:10.789 --> 00:50:13.070
hate big pharma and the commercials. They are

00:50:13.070 --> 00:50:16.539
shoving that stuff down our throat. And I imagine

00:50:16.539 --> 00:50:18.579
every time I see one of those, people are picking

00:50:18.579 --> 00:50:20.619
up their phones and saying, I want to talk about

00:50:20.619 --> 00:50:23.039
this drug I just saw on TV. And none of that's

00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:26.079
really good for us. So I just don't watch it.

00:50:26.260 --> 00:50:30.019
I record old movies, especially westerns or war

00:50:30.019 --> 00:50:36.139
movies. Otherwise, I read a lot and avoid that

00:50:36.139 --> 00:50:41.219
because I think it's just a huge racket that

00:50:41.219 --> 00:50:44.929
people are making. crazy money at, at the expense

00:50:44.929 --> 00:50:47.210
of people really living peaceful, healthy lives.

00:50:47.769 --> 00:50:51.949
Um, also really paying attention to the, uh,

00:50:52.050 --> 00:50:54.769
processed foods and that, that kind of stuff,

00:50:54.829 --> 00:50:58.389
trying to eat healthier and, and, uh, and, uh,

00:50:58.389 --> 00:51:02.610
teach the, uh, grandkids. You know, you can't

00:51:02.610 --> 00:51:04.570
go back. I've had a great conversation with my,

00:51:04.570 --> 00:51:08.369
my sons and my stepkids and, uh, I can't change

00:51:08.369 --> 00:51:10.630
not being the best father, but I can be a better

00:51:10.630 --> 00:51:15.349
grandfather. And especially when one of the little

00:51:15.349 --> 00:51:17.190
boys is falling out here and skinning their knee

00:51:17.190 --> 00:51:20.690
in the gravel, pick them up and let them cry

00:51:20.690 --> 00:51:24.969
and tell them it's okay to cry. Caught my sons

00:51:24.969 --> 00:51:28.309
a couple of times. Knock it off. Shake it off.

00:51:28.449 --> 00:51:30.389
You're not bleeding. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

00:51:31.510 --> 00:51:36.110
Let's change this here so that they don't end

00:51:36.110 --> 00:51:39.710
up like us. I have a son who's a retired Army,

00:51:39.909 --> 00:51:43.579
one who's a disabled. uh firefighter who's uh

00:51:43.579 --> 00:51:47.360
and uh then my stepson's a retired police officer

00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:49.800
and all of them had to retire early through injuries

00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:53.079
and stuff like that and that's uh i know how

00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:55.559
much they struggle and i know some of that's

00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:59.360
my responsibility because i the way i raised

00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:02.820
them all i can do is make amends ask forgiveness

00:52:02.820 --> 00:52:07.440
and and again be a better grandpa i wrote a book

00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:11.409
last year and The main theme is, I mean, it's

00:52:11.409 --> 00:52:13.869
set in a modern day firefighter. You're seeing

00:52:13.869 --> 00:52:15.710
the world through his eyes and, you know, what

00:52:15.710 --> 00:52:18.050
our job is like, what the world looks like through

00:52:18.050 --> 00:52:20.329
our eyes. But I really want to infuse generational

00:52:20.329 --> 00:52:25.010
trauma and not against the sad story with violins.

00:52:25.010 --> 00:52:27.789
But once you realize what this is and once you

00:52:27.789 --> 00:52:30.230
see behind you these dominoes that have fallen

00:52:30.230 --> 00:52:34.019
onto you even. And you have the courage to say,

00:52:34.099 --> 00:52:36.360
I'm not going to let this pass on my kids or,

00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:38.760
you know, if it's later in life in my grandkids.

00:52:39.219 --> 00:52:42.340
I think that's such a beautiful concept that

00:52:42.340 --> 00:52:44.880
we are empowered to stop these dominoes from

00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:47.400
continuing to fall. And then even because I think

00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:49.500
I think when you have that conversation, you're

00:52:49.500 --> 00:52:51.739
straddling. Like, of course, there's some trauma

00:52:51.739 --> 00:52:53.500
in my child. You know, I'm having this conversation

00:52:53.500 --> 00:52:56.860
now. My sons are my stepson's 24. My son is 18.

00:52:56.940 --> 00:52:59.989
So. You know, through my divorce, for example,

00:53:00.070 --> 00:53:01.909
there's, there's some of that, but I think you

00:53:01.909 --> 00:53:05.849
can then kind of wind it back from that end to

00:53:05.849 --> 00:53:07.869
once you've done the healing, you can, you know,

00:53:07.889 --> 00:53:10.030
own your things, you can apologize, you can,

00:53:10.030 --> 00:53:12.530
you know, give them the tools to start healing

00:53:12.530 --> 00:53:15.489
their own trauma from from their childhood. So

00:53:15.489 --> 00:53:17.909
I think it's a it's a It's a beautiful conversation

00:53:17.909 --> 00:53:20.070
because it really does give people hope and it

00:53:20.070 --> 00:53:22.210
empowers them to realize that you can change

00:53:22.210 --> 00:53:24.650
and you can reverse epigenetics. Just because

00:53:24.650 --> 00:53:27.869
your father was alcoholic doesn't mean that you

00:53:27.869 --> 00:53:31.329
have to be an alcoholic. The way they say it's

00:53:31.329 --> 00:53:33.690
genetic, that can be turned around. It can be

00:53:33.690 --> 00:53:37.230
genetic not to be an alcoholic. So I think it's

00:53:37.230 --> 00:53:41.489
really powerful for our generation to have the

00:53:41.489 --> 00:53:43.630
courage to say, I'm not just going to heal for

00:53:43.630 --> 00:53:46.440
me. I'm going to heal. for my kids and my grandkids

00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:48.820
and my great grandkids, because if I can stop

00:53:48.820 --> 00:53:51.460
these dominoes, they get to kind of, you know,

00:53:51.460 --> 00:53:54.420
start almost from scratch again and forge a brand

00:53:54.420 --> 00:53:56.820
new path without all this accumulated trauma

00:53:56.820 --> 00:53:59.440
that they've got on their shoulders. Well, and

00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:01.960
that's a great lesson that Save a Warrior drives

00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:04.800
home that I still share. The only person I can

00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.239
heal is me. And the best thing I can do for the

00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:10.260
people I care about in my life is heal me. I

00:54:10.260 --> 00:54:13.460
can't fix them, but I can fix me. And in hope.

00:54:13.949 --> 00:54:18.550
that at some point, none of my three sons have

00:54:18.550 --> 00:54:21.630
ever come out for any work with the horses. And

00:54:21.630 --> 00:54:25.469
I don't ask them to. I simply say, I'm here if

00:54:25.469 --> 00:54:28.610
you need me. They know what I do. They know how

00:54:28.610 --> 00:54:31.809
much experience I have with it. But when they're

00:54:31.809 --> 00:54:33.590
ready, if they need my help, they'll be there.

00:54:33.630 --> 00:54:35.829
I don't try to fix them. It's hard. It's hard

00:54:35.829 --> 00:54:42.510
to watch them struggle. It's something I can't

00:54:42.510 --> 00:54:44.309
control, so I just got to pray about it and let

00:54:44.309 --> 00:54:48.650
it go and just be true to my word. I'm here if

00:54:48.650 --> 00:54:52.710
you need me. So maybe they will someday. I want

00:54:52.710 --> 00:54:57.650
them to find the peace. Another thing I heard

00:54:57.650 --> 00:54:59.789
that I repeat all the time is, do you want to

00:54:59.789 --> 00:55:03.409
be happy or do you want peace? Because I'm not

00:55:03.409 --> 00:55:05.090
going to be happy all the time, but I can be

00:55:05.090 --> 00:55:07.789
at peace with the things I'm not happy with because

00:55:07.789 --> 00:55:10.750
most of those are things I can't change. And

00:55:10.750 --> 00:55:14.750
if I can't change them, then stop being upset

00:55:14.750 --> 00:55:16.869
about them and just let it go and be at peace.

00:55:17.090 --> 00:55:21.170
So I'm at peace. That's a blessing. You talked

00:55:21.170 --> 00:55:24.909
about the disability mindset earlier and talking

00:55:24.909 --> 00:55:27.190
about your sons and having that those injuries

00:55:27.190 --> 00:55:29.369
or disability as they progressed out of the first

00:55:29.369 --> 00:55:33.539
responder careers. I see the same issue. in our

00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:35.579
professions than you were just talking about

00:55:35.579 --> 00:55:37.659
in the military profession. And I've seen it

00:55:37.659 --> 00:55:40.760
with my own friends. They get hurt. They're on

00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:43.679
disability. And they're literally terrified that

00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:45.519
someone's going to be in a bush taking a picture

00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:48.679
of them. So they just don't do anything until

00:55:48.679 --> 00:55:50.219
it's all gone through. Because they've got a

00:55:50.219 --> 00:55:52.760
bona fide, legitimate injury. They had surgery.

00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:57.239
But it completely discourages that healing conversation.

00:55:57.539 --> 00:55:59.880
Now, I'm not saying, let me preface this, I'm

00:55:59.880 --> 00:56:02.619
not saying that my injury was the same as a couple

00:56:02.619 --> 00:56:05.500
of these other guys, but I tore three ligaments

00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:09.880
in my back about 10 years ago and just had a

00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:11.400
different way of looking at it. I'm like, well,

00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:15.500
this was mechanic trauma that did this, so pills

00:56:15.500 --> 00:56:17.880
and potions aren't going to fix it. So I'm going

00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:21.380
to just figure out what... imbalance led to this

00:56:21.380 --> 00:56:23.800
in the first place how can i address that how

00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:25.619
can i strengthen everything and then get back

00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:28.219
without any of these surgeries or at least at

00:56:28.219 --> 00:56:30.960
least rule that out so you know that way if surgery

00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.159
is the only thing i've tried everything else

00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:36.039
first And I was able to do it. There's a great

00:56:36.039 --> 00:56:38.019
practice called foundation training that was

00:56:38.019 --> 00:56:40.320
a real game changer. So good that I ended up

00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:42.159
getting certified and teaching my fire department.

00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:44.920
It was phenomenal. But then I paid out of pocket

00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:47.159
for chiropractor. I was in the gym every single

00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:50.059
day, you know, from a PVC pipe back up to a barbell

00:56:50.059 --> 00:56:53.460
and beyond. But that's because I believed that

00:56:53.460 --> 00:56:56.280
I was going to go back to work and I wasn't chasing

00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:58.659
this disability. But, you know, whether it's

00:56:58.659 --> 00:57:00.980
the physical health or the mental health. That

00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:03.039
is a kind of carrot and the stick for a lot of

00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:06.480
our people in uniform. And as you said, now you're

00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:09.099
out and you've got this payment coming in. But

00:57:09.099 --> 00:57:11.500
what is your life's purpose now if you've had

00:57:11.500 --> 00:57:15.099
all that taken away? So you touched on this,

00:57:15.139 --> 00:57:17.239
and I agree with this 100 % in the first responder

00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:20.420
profession. You might initially not be able to

00:57:20.420 --> 00:57:22.360
work as a firefighter anymore, and that's okay.

00:57:22.739 --> 00:57:24.960
But then there needs to be an on -ramp again

00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:27.639
of like, all right, well. What can I get my physicality

00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:30.719
back up to? All right, now I'm up to 75%. So

00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:33.619
I can't do firefighting anymore. But could I

00:57:33.619 --> 00:57:36.159
be an arson investigator? Or could I, you know,

00:57:36.159 --> 00:57:38.340
do something completely different? Teach swimming

00:57:38.340 --> 00:57:41.960
or, you know, whatever, yoga instructor, whatever

00:57:41.960 --> 00:57:44.840
the thing is. But getting you back out there,

00:57:45.019 --> 00:57:47.619
you know, changing your identity, but still having

00:57:47.619 --> 00:57:50.480
a purpose. Because I find that disability mindset.

00:57:51.389 --> 00:57:53.829
Apart from obviously when someone's just so badly

00:57:53.829 --> 00:57:57.389
wounded that there's no other option, but everyone

00:57:57.389 --> 00:58:01.050
else, these arguably smaller disabilities, I

00:58:01.050 --> 00:58:02.809
feel like the conversation needs to be, well,

00:58:02.869 --> 00:58:07.550
how can we get you as close to how you were before

00:58:07.550 --> 00:58:09.510
as we can? You're not going to be the same person

00:58:09.510 --> 00:58:11.429
that you were, but how close can we get you?

00:58:11.469 --> 00:58:14.130
And then what doors does that open up for you

00:58:14.130 --> 00:58:19.519
to then forge another path? I relate the physical

00:58:19.519 --> 00:58:21.679
injuries to the mental injuries all the time

00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:23.900
with my young people. These are veterans and

00:58:23.900 --> 00:58:26.739
first responders. So I ask you, did you ever

00:58:26.739 --> 00:58:29.940
sprain an ankle? Well, yeah. And what did you

00:58:29.940 --> 00:58:32.800
do? Well, I went to the doctor. Yeah, you did

00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:36.300
Moturn ice elevation physical therapy, and then

00:58:36.300 --> 00:58:41.280
eventually it's fine now. Mental wound or moral

00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:44.429
injury is the same thing. temporarily, you need

00:58:44.429 --> 00:58:47.190
medication, you need therapy, you need exercises

00:58:47.190 --> 00:58:49.849
that help you heal that. But it's not a lifelong

00:58:49.849 --> 00:58:53.929
sentence that displaces enjoying life and having

00:58:53.929 --> 00:58:56.610
a purpose. I mean, that's where I'm at with this.

00:58:56.769 --> 00:58:59.389
I found a purpose. I don't make any money. I

00:58:59.389 --> 00:59:02.050
don't want to. I get paid in tears and smiles.

00:59:02.949 --> 00:59:07.289
But you got to do something. And I got a couple

00:59:07.289 --> 00:59:11.309
of friends, the highest level of disability retirement

00:59:11.309 --> 00:59:14.190
for Ohio is police and fire pension system says,

00:59:14.250 --> 00:59:17.670
you may not do anything. You can't make a dime

00:59:17.670 --> 00:59:21.389
if you get this retirement for mental health.

00:59:22.110 --> 00:59:25.329
And that's hard. I'm like, wait a minute, what

00:59:25.329 --> 00:59:26.769
are you supposed to do with the rest of your

00:59:26.769 --> 00:59:30.630
life? And then they start restricting. And like

00:59:30.630 --> 00:59:32.909
you said, people are hiding in the bushes, taking

00:59:32.909 --> 00:59:35.570
pictures of them. If you can go water skiing,

00:59:35.590 --> 00:59:38.349
you should be back to work, et cetera. And everybody's

00:59:38.349 --> 00:59:41.349
different. But to just accept this, your life

00:59:41.349 --> 00:59:43.460
is over. I'm just going to sit here and play

00:59:43.460 --> 00:59:47.039
Xbox and drink beer and be angry and get a check

00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:49.460
for it every month. And that's a shame to see

00:59:49.460 --> 00:59:52.639
people do that because there's so much more to

00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:56.440
see and do out in the world. Speaking of moral

00:59:56.440 --> 01:00:00.079
injury, again, progressing through this amazing

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:03.579
education that I've had, one of the two, I would

01:00:03.579 --> 01:00:06.280
say, really under -discussed elements of mental

01:00:06.280 --> 01:00:08.699
health. you know, especially in our profession.

01:00:08.820 --> 01:00:10.920
One is sleep deprivation, which I bang that drum

01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:13.079
all the time because, you know, we will have

01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:15.139
these departments that will refuse to look at

01:00:15.139 --> 01:00:17.579
their staffing, but then they'll bring in a counselor.

01:00:17.699 --> 01:00:19.260
It's like, well, yeah, it's like putting a bandaid

01:00:19.260 --> 01:00:20.719
on a gunshot wound. Are you going to get the

01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:22.820
bullet out or are you just going to stop the

01:00:22.820 --> 01:00:25.880
bleeding? But the other one is organizational

01:00:25.880 --> 01:00:28.980
betrayal. That's a huge moral injury because

01:00:28.980 --> 01:00:32.239
this is a tribe that you have sworn to protect

01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:35.630
that you even said you would die for. Who then,

01:00:35.630 --> 01:00:38.010
you know, in many, you know, incidences, these

01:00:38.010 --> 01:00:39.769
people that are supposed to be kind of chiefs

01:00:39.769 --> 01:00:41.489
of the tribe are then turning the back on the

01:00:41.489 --> 01:00:43.710
people that are, you know, literally risking

01:00:43.710 --> 01:00:46.670
their lives for them. Talk to me about that impact,

01:00:46.909 --> 01:00:49.429
as you alluded to in the awesome position on

01:00:49.429 --> 01:00:51.690
your own personal life. And then what are you

01:00:51.690 --> 01:00:55.110
seeing kind of nationally as far as, you know,

01:00:55.110 --> 01:00:58.170
toxic culture, poor leadership and the mental

01:00:58.170 --> 01:01:02.530
health of our first responders? It's well, my

01:01:02.530 --> 01:01:06.679
experience locally. So I felt organizational

01:01:06.679 --> 01:01:10.500
betrayal from the people I worked with. I left

01:01:10.500 --> 01:01:13.719
the city fire department and moved to the township

01:01:13.719 --> 01:01:19.320
in a fit of anger at the fire chief, who, God

01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:22.179
bless him, because he's gone now, but I didn't

01:01:22.179 --> 01:01:26.219
understand how sick he was as an alcoholic and

01:01:26.219 --> 01:01:30.300
the stuff he had going on. But I also know that

01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:33.159
was my fault because my amygdala was just raging

01:01:33.159 --> 01:01:36.079
and it's hijacked my brain. And I said, angry

01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:38.519
and quit and moved to the township fire department

01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:42.860
for more responsibility with less pay. And then

01:01:42.860 --> 01:01:44.539
eventually when I become the fire chief there,

01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:48.119
you know, one time changed in an election and

01:01:48.119 --> 01:01:52.820
I've got three politicians that I work for. uh

01:01:52.820 --> 01:01:55.539
one's a retired volunteer one's a retired career

01:01:55.539 --> 01:01:58.679
guy and both of them want to micromanage me and

01:01:58.679 --> 01:02:01.059
you know literally the the rage comes out it

01:02:01.059 --> 01:02:04.880
was just a constant battle of their priorities

01:02:04.880 --> 01:02:06.880
weren't the same as our priorities and wanting

01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:08.800
to provide good service to the people who call

01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:11.559
us for help to the point literally i volunteered

01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:14.559
for another tour in iraq to go on active duty

01:02:14.559 --> 01:02:18.980
and to get away from that and when i came back

01:02:18.980 --> 01:02:20.719
i was offered the job at the state level and

01:02:20.719 --> 01:02:23.079
i took that nice down Found the same thing. I'm

01:02:23.079 --> 01:02:24.820
still working for politicians with different

01:02:24.820 --> 01:02:28.780
priorities. And I felt betrayed that here's this

01:02:28.780 --> 01:02:31.800
mission. It's in the code what we're supposed

01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:35.800
to do. Yet doing it is a constant fight. Every

01:02:35.800 --> 01:02:39.300
purchase, every equipment need, every manpower

01:02:39.300 --> 01:02:43.920
need is a struggle to get what we need to do

01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:49.309
the mission we're mandated to do. Sometimes the

01:02:49.309 --> 01:02:52.070
toxicity leaks down to the leadership level and

01:02:52.070 --> 01:02:55.090
chiefs. And there's a couple of departments in

01:02:55.090 --> 01:02:58.150
this area that I've worked with folks that it's

01:02:58.150 --> 01:03:00.969
really a shame to see how they've been treated

01:03:00.969 --> 01:03:04.409
by their command staff when they have an emotional

01:03:04.409 --> 01:03:08.670
wound. And these are all 20 plus year guys. And

01:03:08.670 --> 01:03:10.809
some of them are within a year of retirement.

01:03:10.849 --> 01:03:12.789
And that bucket has just ran over and they're

01:03:12.789 --> 01:03:15.230
not sleeping. And they're having panic attacks

01:03:15.230 --> 01:03:17.349
when they go on calls. That's where I was at.

01:03:18.289 --> 01:03:21.190
And I used a lot of sick leave that last year.

01:03:21.289 --> 01:03:25.610
I was working here locally just because I shouldn't

01:03:25.610 --> 01:03:30.110
go to work when I'm in this shape. And that was

01:03:30.110 --> 01:03:33.190
not only misunderstood, it was criticized. And

01:03:33.190 --> 01:03:36.550
it still is in some places. So on one hand, I've

01:03:36.550 --> 01:03:40.710
got my chief and the chief at the city now here.

01:03:40.769 --> 01:03:42.650
We're kind of joined at the hip with city and

01:03:42.650 --> 01:03:46.980
township are very open and progressive to. mental

01:03:46.980 --> 01:03:50.840
health and wellness and uh and changing that

01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:54.300
culture but you know 15 miles west of here i

01:03:54.300 --> 01:03:57.480
can point a fire department that's uh struggling

01:03:57.480 --> 01:04:00.179
with their retention and struggling because their

01:04:00.179 --> 01:04:02.940
leadership is just the opposite you you break

01:04:02.940 --> 01:04:06.179
your leg well that's legitimate but you break

01:04:06.179 --> 01:04:09.199
your brain you're a slacker and you either need

01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:11.079
to get back to work or get out if you can't hack

01:04:11.079 --> 01:04:14.679
it go away blah blah blah And it's hard. Again,

01:04:14.920 --> 01:04:17.519
these are people. And then they set this culture,

01:04:17.619 --> 01:04:20.619
which is you're right. These are guys that you

01:04:20.619 --> 01:04:23.280
live with, you know, from your crew, your company

01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:27.800
officers, your battalion chiefs. You share responsibility.

01:04:27.820 --> 01:04:31.500
You risk with each other every day. And then

01:04:31.500 --> 01:04:35.380
they're told they can't speak to you while you're

01:04:35.380 --> 01:04:38.199
going through this process. And you're told you

01:04:38.199 --> 01:04:40.300
can't speak to them. You're given a no contact

01:04:40.300 --> 01:04:43.260
order. Stay out of the firehouse. while you're

01:04:43.260 --> 01:04:46.179
going through this mental health care, which

01:04:46.179 --> 01:04:49.320
you just lost your closest support network, your

01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:52.860
other family. And I just don't get how chiefs

01:04:52.860 --> 01:04:56.119
think that's the right thing to do. And I've

01:04:56.119 --> 01:05:00.760
become an empath. So then I start thinking, what

01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:03.320
happened to that guy to make him behave this

01:05:03.320 --> 01:05:06.000
way now that he's a chief? And boy, he needs

01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:09.780
some help because he's bleeding on a lot of people

01:05:09.780 --> 01:05:13.809
that didn't cut him. I hope slowly, promotion

01:05:13.809 --> 01:05:17.610
by promotion, retirement by retirement, we will

01:05:17.610 --> 01:05:22.650
slowly change the culture to where our sheriff,

01:05:22.849 --> 01:05:25.050
I'm still a reserve deputy here for our county,

01:05:25.170 --> 01:05:28.170
having cross -trained into law enforcement and

01:05:28.170 --> 01:05:30.909
becoming an office investigator. I still enjoy

01:05:30.909 --> 01:05:33.010
helping out with special details and the county

01:05:33.010 --> 01:05:35.250
fair and stuff. But I'm really blessed that our

01:05:35.250 --> 01:05:40.610
sheriff is, again, 100 % behind. physical fitness

01:05:40.610 --> 01:05:43.530
and mental wellness uh and spiritual wellness

01:05:43.530 --> 01:05:46.570
he just brought in uh two additional chaplains

01:05:46.570 --> 01:05:49.489
to assist with that crisis intervention and and

01:05:49.489 --> 01:05:51.110
create a coincidence stress management stuff

01:05:51.110 --> 01:05:55.130
uh and uh those are the examples we should be

01:05:55.130 --> 01:05:57.329
looking for and hope the toxic people retire

01:05:57.329 --> 01:06:00.190
uh and that others are learning from this i hope

01:06:00.190 --> 01:06:02.510
a guy who's suffering that now or seeing what

01:06:02.510 --> 01:06:05.480
it does to his troops as a lieutenant The battalion

01:06:05.480 --> 01:06:07.539
chief remembers that lesson if he ever gets to

01:06:07.539 --> 01:06:10.900
be a fire chief or a police chief. I was at a

01:06:10.900 --> 01:06:14.719
resource fair with a table set up talking about

01:06:14.719 --> 01:06:17.519
this stuff. And a guy stopped by. He was a police

01:06:17.519 --> 01:06:20.460
chief. And he starts saying, I don't believe

01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:23.440
this is legitimate. You can't use injury leave.

01:06:23.539 --> 01:06:25.699
It's not connected to the job. They're just weak.

01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:29.179
If they got to take off for seeing a shrink,

01:06:29.340 --> 01:06:31.000
they can use, I think that's the term you use,

01:06:31.099 --> 01:06:32.800
seeing a shrink. They can use their own sick

01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:37.070
leave, et cetera. And I said, chief, if a guy

01:06:37.070 --> 01:06:38.909
comes in on crutches, can he go out on patrol?

01:06:39.130 --> 01:06:41.590
Well, no, he's not fit for duty. I said, I guarantee

01:06:41.590 --> 01:06:44.250
you guys got your agency. You have guys in mental

01:06:44.250 --> 01:06:46.150
wheelchairs right now that shouldn't be out there,

01:06:46.230 --> 01:06:48.469
but they are because of your attitude. Because

01:06:48.469 --> 01:06:50.769
they're hurting and they can't say a word because

01:06:50.769 --> 01:06:53.530
they're afraid of you. And that made him angry

01:06:53.530 --> 01:06:58.090
and he walked away. So that's okay. And that

01:06:58.090 --> 01:07:02.969
guy needs some help himself. Most of these guys,

01:07:04.289 --> 01:07:07.849
It's funny. I had some great chiefs. I had some

01:07:07.849 --> 01:07:11.289
not so great chiefs. Some of them forget where

01:07:11.289 --> 01:07:14.110
they came from, forget what they needed when

01:07:14.110 --> 01:07:15.949
they were out there on the floor, on the street.

01:07:17.489 --> 01:07:22.050
And it's a shame that they can't be more sensitive

01:07:22.050 --> 01:07:24.789
to that. It's just you're injured. You're injured.

01:07:24.829 --> 01:07:26.630
You get carried back to work. It takes a little

01:07:26.630 --> 01:07:29.489
time. Yeah, it costs some overtime. It costs

01:07:29.489 --> 01:07:32.300
doing business. There will never be an overtime

01:07:32.300 --> 01:07:34.820
-free public safety agency. It's just not possible.

01:07:34.900 --> 01:07:37.199
You've got to have minimum manning standards,

01:07:37.420 --> 01:07:39.119
and you've only got so many people on the payroll.

01:07:39.940 --> 01:07:43.739
And so I get it, and I get that council doesn't

01:07:43.739 --> 01:07:45.960
like it, but you've got to build it in as a cost

01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:48.719
of doing business, just like fuel and supplies

01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:52.780
and everything else. That's what I tried to do.

01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:55.179
And I fought that battle with the politicians.

01:07:55.340 --> 01:07:58.340
That's why we didn't get along. I cared more

01:07:58.340 --> 01:08:01.039
about taking care of my people. That's funny

01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:04.800
because on the reserve side, from being in crash

01:08:04.800 --> 01:08:08.139
fire rescue, I became a first sergeant and first

01:08:08.139 --> 01:08:10.760
in engineers and security police. And the first

01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:13.039
sergeant's job, at least in the Air Force, is

01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:15.280
literally theirs. You work only for the commander

01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:17.300
and taking care of the troops is your number

01:08:17.300 --> 01:08:20.079
one priority. And you're allowed to go in and

01:08:20.079 --> 01:08:21.640
shut the door and tell the commander what you

01:08:21.640 --> 01:08:25.279
think, including that he's wrong. You're expected

01:08:25.279 --> 01:08:28.579
to. And he's expected to listen to you and take

01:08:28.579 --> 01:08:33.300
your opinion seriously. And that's probably the

01:08:33.300 --> 01:08:36.539
job in my life that fit me the best. It doesn't

01:08:36.539 --> 01:08:39.859
work on the public side because when I closed

01:08:39.859 --> 01:08:41.539
the door and tried to tell my bosses they were

01:08:41.539 --> 01:08:43.520
wrong, I got threatened with being fired and

01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:47.960
told to shut up and go away. but it'd be great

01:08:47.960 --> 01:08:51.260
if there was more ability to do that humble themselves

01:08:51.260 --> 01:08:54.479
and realize that this is not about power and

01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:56.760
money it's not about getting reelected it's about

01:08:56.760 --> 01:09:01.140
emergency services is emergency services and

01:09:01.140 --> 01:09:04.420
so i have high hopes that the culture will keep

01:09:04.420 --> 01:09:06.699
changing yeah you're out there driving the uh

01:09:06.699 --> 01:09:12.500
the 24 72 which i think is great Our locally,

01:09:12.619 --> 01:09:16.180
our folks work 24 on 24 off for three shifts

01:09:16.180 --> 01:09:19.859
and then get a four day break. But that one day

01:09:19.859 --> 01:09:22.600
between those one day each between those three

01:09:22.600 --> 01:09:25.899
24s and they're they're now running like just

01:09:25.899 --> 01:09:28.119
a small department. But they're they're getting

01:09:28.119 --> 01:09:30.840
no sleep. They don't even bother going to bed

01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:32.960
because the medic's going to be out constantly.

01:09:33.659 --> 01:09:36.880
And then, you know, they're. Got a side job.

01:09:37.039 --> 01:09:39.659
Everybody's got a side job. So by that third

01:09:39.659 --> 01:09:43.579
24 -hour shift, they're just done. And I don't

01:09:43.579 --> 01:09:46.800
know that four days off is enough. It was hard

01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:49.420
back in the day. And they're doing 50 % more

01:09:49.420 --> 01:09:53.159
calls than I was back in the 80s and 90s. And

01:09:53.159 --> 01:09:56.659
so I worry about those guys. Yeah. Well, I mean,

01:09:56.699 --> 01:09:59.960
again, there is a... totally preventable solution

01:09:59.960 --> 01:10:03.960
to it um and it's interesting um i just had two

01:10:03.960 --> 01:10:06.760
of your uh fire chiefs who i believe are part

01:10:06.760 --> 01:10:09.939
of the uh or the leadership of the uh ohio fire

01:10:09.939 --> 01:10:12.640
chiefs association just invite me onto their

01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:16.479
podcast talk about 24 72 which is amazing because

01:10:16.479 --> 01:10:18.819
the florida fire chiefs association when they

01:10:18.819 --> 01:10:21.220
signed a bill recommending 42 hour work weeks

01:10:21.220 --> 01:10:24.369
here They put an email out within their members,

01:10:24.529 --> 01:10:28.130
which was sent to me, that they opposed the 42

01:10:28.130 --> 01:10:30.829
-hour work week. So going back to what you were

01:10:30.829 --> 01:10:34.449
alluding to, and I couldn't agree more, the fire

01:10:34.449 --> 01:10:37.390
service mental health crisis that's not talked

01:10:37.390 --> 01:10:40.710
about is the chiefs and the city and county council

01:10:40.710 --> 01:10:45.250
members. If you can go home at 5 o 'clock every

01:10:45.250 --> 01:10:47.829
night, sleep in your own bed, work 40 hours a

01:10:47.829 --> 01:10:50.210
week, and then you will stand up and oppose.

01:10:51.149 --> 01:10:53.270
firefighters who are awake all night running

01:10:53.270 --> 01:10:56.329
these awful calls oppose them working less than

01:10:56.329 --> 01:10:58.949
56 which is in created a crisis and now they're

01:10:58.949 --> 01:11:01.909
working 80 you know mandatory overtime and you

01:11:01.909 --> 01:11:04.329
sleep at night you need to look in the mirror

01:11:04.329 --> 01:11:07.949
and go why am i sleeping at night because that's

01:11:07.949 --> 01:11:10.670
not normal for someone in a selfless service

01:11:10.670 --> 01:11:13.029
position whether it's the fire service or whether

01:11:13.029 --> 01:11:15.149
it's in politics you're supposed to be serving

01:11:15.149 --> 01:11:17.529
your community and if you're burying your community

01:11:17.529 --> 01:11:20.000
and it doesn't bother you then I would argue

01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:22.260
that you're borderlining on being a sociopath

01:11:22.260 --> 01:11:24.899
and you really are not fit for duty to be in

01:11:24.899 --> 01:11:26.859
a chief's position or a union president's position

01:11:26.859 --> 01:11:29.560
or a counselor's position or a mayor's position.

01:11:29.920 --> 01:11:32.180
So I think it's a really important part of this

01:11:32.180 --> 01:11:34.859
whole thing. If you are in a position where you

01:11:34.859 --> 01:11:37.279
actually can force change and you refuse to,

01:11:37.460 --> 01:11:39.880
you need to really look in the mirror at your

01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:41.699
own mental health and ask yourself, why am I

01:11:41.699 --> 01:11:44.699
not bothered by these deaths and my recruitment

01:11:44.699 --> 01:11:48.310
and retention spiraling downwards? Well, change

01:11:48.310 --> 01:11:52.710
is scary. And you said the word selfless. We

01:11:52.710 --> 01:11:55.770
don't have enough leadership there that's selfless

01:11:55.770 --> 01:11:57.810
when they get to that level. And it's easy to

01:11:57.810 --> 01:12:02.270
do. It becomes ego and control. And they forget

01:12:02.270 --> 01:12:05.750
where they came from. And I will say, whether

01:12:05.750 --> 01:12:08.170
when I was a local fire chief or as a law enforcement

01:12:08.170 --> 01:12:10.289
chief of the state, you feel like you're trapped

01:12:10.289 --> 01:12:13.609
because, you know, the board, the council wants

01:12:13.609 --> 01:12:16.899
you to be their guy. But the troops who've known

01:12:16.899 --> 01:12:19.239
you for years, especially if you came up through

01:12:19.239 --> 01:12:22.199
the ranks, you're one of the guys, and they want

01:12:22.199 --> 01:12:25.039
you to be their guy. And those aren't compatible.

01:12:25.220 --> 01:12:28.039
You're torn there. Like sitting in union negotiations,

01:12:28.340 --> 01:12:30.140
you've got to sit on the city's side of the table.

01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:32.939
Even though you're with these guys you've been

01:12:32.939 --> 01:12:36.260
with for 25 years, that's really hard to find.

01:12:36.380 --> 01:12:39.319
I don't know if there is a balance. I always

01:12:39.319 --> 01:12:42.000
leaned back towards the guys because, again,

01:12:42.119 --> 01:12:44.470
I kind of had that. mentality for my military

01:12:44.470 --> 01:12:46.369
duty that they're my people and I got to take

01:12:46.369 --> 01:12:49.750
care of them. So that's how I found myself being

01:12:49.750 --> 01:12:52.109
their guy and constantly in conflict with the

01:12:52.109 --> 01:12:54.789
politicians who wanted me to be their guy. You're

01:12:54.789 --> 01:12:56.489
going to cut the budget. No, I'm not. We just

01:12:56.489 --> 01:13:00.170
told you to. Well, no, I'm not. They couldn't

01:13:00.170 --> 01:13:02.449
understand why I wouldn't do what they told me

01:13:02.449 --> 01:13:05.710
to because it's going to affect service. Well,

01:13:05.770 --> 01:13:11.220
we have to. I don't know how you find that balance,

01:13:11.359 --> 01:13:13.380
but remembering where you came from and remembering

01:13:13.380 --> 01:13:17.079
why you're there. It's not about your ego. It's

01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:19.979
not about a bigger paycheck or the power and

01:13:19.979 --> 01:13:26.359
the titles. Again, I've heard fire chiefs say

01:13:26.359 --> 01:13:29.180
this. Well, back when I was on shift, we didn't

01:13:29.180 --> 01:13:31.819
have a problem with it. But again, look at your

01:13:31.819 --> 01:13:33.720
run stats. Look at the growth of the community.

01:13:33.899 --> 01:13:36.380
Look at the aging of the population, especially

01:13:36.380 --> 01:13:40.899
EMS. Our folks are running at least 50, if not

01:13:40.899 --> 01:13:44.180
70 % more calls than we did back when I was a

01:13:44.180 --> 01:13:46.859
firefighter and a lieutenant through the 80s

01:13:46.859 --> 01:13:53.140
and 90s. And so, no, we didn't have a big problem

01:13:53.140 --> 01:13:56.180
with it back then. Maybe we were up once or twice

01:13:56.180 --> 01:14:00.859
a night. Now you're up all night. And it's not

01:14:00.859 --> 01:14:05.039
just the really critical incidents. It just gets

01:14:05.039 --> 01:14:07.659
to be the wear of seeing sometimes the worst

01:14:07.659 --> 01:14:10.239
in humanity. I've talked about this with first

01:14:10.239 --> 01:14:14.020
responder clients. Again, back to that CISM model

01:14:14.020 --> 01:14:17.539
of first worst and most recent. And some of the

01:14:17.539 --> 01:14:21.380
really troubling incidents weren't really critical

01:14:21.380 --> 01:14:23.479
incidents other than the fact that I'm in a house

01:14:23.479 --> 01:14:26.680
where there's a medical emergency with grandma

01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:30.180
and the living conditions are deplorable and

01:14:30.180 --> 01:14:33.050
there's children in there. who are young and

01:14:33.050 --> 01:14:35.250
innocent and have no control over their environment.

01:14:35.869 --> 01:14:40.510
And it's just seeing them in that position and

01:14:40.510 --> 01:14:43.050
then having to walk out. And you're going to

01:14:43.050 --> 01:14:44.590
take grandma to the hospital. But what about

01:14:44.590 --> 01:14:47.029
those poor children and your threadbare carpet

01:14:47.029 --> 01:14:50.229
and cat poop everywhere and trash everywhere?

01:14:50.689 --> 01:14:53.210
And, you know, I mean, look, is there any food

01:14:53.210 --> 01:14:56.630
in the house? It's just disheartening and sad

01:14:56.630 --> 01:14:58.310
and it troubles you. It's hard to go back to

01:14:58.310 --> 01:15:01.659
sleep after that, too. Absolutely. If you get

01:15:01.659 --> 01:15:06.699
a chance. So every day on the job can be difficult

01:15:06.699 --> 01:15:08.979
and traumatic, seeing the worst side of humanity.

01:15:10.590 --> 01:15:12.829
Yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, again, there's

01:15:12.829 --> 01:15:14.510
two sides. It's firstly, like you said, the core

01:15:14.510 --> 01:15:16.409
load. Secondly, a lot of departments, if they

01:15:16.409 --> 01:15:19.329
had EMS, they weren't transport EMS. You know,

01:15:19.350 --> 01:15:21.189
that's a whole different ballgame when you're

01:15:21.189 --> 01:15:23.289
actually taking patients and holding the wall

01:15:23.289 --> 01:15:26.369
for an hour and, you know, doing reports. And

01:15:26.369 --> 01:15:27.890
then, you know, let's be honest as well. There

01:15:27.890 --> 01:15:29.270
was a lot of people in chief's positions that

01:15:29.270 --> 01:15:31.050
scurried up the ladder as fast as they could.

01:15:31.069 --> 01:15:32.750
So they didn't spend a lot of time in the trenches.

01:15:32.909 --> 01:15:35.609
Let's put that out there as well. I think what

01:15:35.609 --> 01:15:37.970
really kills me, though, is two things. Firstly,

01:15:39.100 --> 01:15:42.199
We know it's not working. Let's just put that

01:15:42.199 --> 01:15:46.340
there. If the way we did it worked, then we wouldn't

01:15:46.340 --> 01:15:48.079
have suicides and cancers or we wouldn't have

01:15:48.079 --> 01:15:50.840
the magnitude of suicides and cancers and testosterone

01:15:50.840 --> 01:15:53.699
depletion and alcoholism and addiction and broken

01:15:53.699 --> 01:15:55.760
marriages and fractured relationships with children

01:15:55.760 --> 01:15:58.220
and all the things that we have. That doesn't

01:15:58.220 --> 01:15:59.720
mean that you don't love the job. And this is

01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:01.399
what irks me when people are like, oh, there's

01:16:01.399 --> 01:16:03.000
so much negativity. I say, yeah, because people

01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:05.659
are dying. That's why there's negativity. It's

01:16:05.659 --> 01:16:08.039
an issue. I know you love growing your mustache

01:16:08.039 --> 01:16:09.600
and wearing your leather helmet and taking pictures

01:16:09.600 --> 01:16:12.060
of yourself, but we have a real crisis that needs

01:16:12.060 --> 01:16:14.579
to be addressed. And it's not about the love

01:16:14.579 --> 01:16:16.300
of the job. It's about the working conditions,

01:16:16.340 --> 01:16:20.159
like you said. But when we acknowledge that and

01:16:20.159 --> 01:16:21.760
we go, okay, well, then obviously doing something

01:16:21.760 --> 01:16:23.859
differently is a solution then. And then you

01:16:23.859 --> 01:16:26.819
see that there are things like a 24 -72 and a

01:16:26.819 --> 01:16:30.140
later start time and integrated 911 telehealth

01:16:30.140 --> 01:16:32.079
to stop some of the calls even coming in in the

01:16:32.079 --> 01:16:34.619
first place. And then access to equine therapy

01:16:34.619 --> 01:16:37.390
and psychedelics. And all these other things

01:16:37.390 --> 01:16:39.670
that are addressing the mental health and then

01:16:39.670 --> 01:16:41.590
putting in fitness standards, because I don't

01:16:41.590 --> 01:16:44.250
understand why that was ever even an issue that

01:16:44.250 --> 01:16:45.930
we didn't have them. You know, I mean, we should

01:16:45.930 --> 01:16:48.449
always have had them. Now you've just added three

01:16:48.449 --> 01:16:50.670
or four false multipliers that are going to completely

01:16:50.670 --> 01:16:53.489
revolutionize the fire service. But people say,

01:16:53.510 --> 01:16:55.920
oh, we don't have the money. But that's a complete

01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:58.159
false economy, because look at downstream of

01:16:58.159 --> 01:17:00.439
how much a mental health retirement, you know,

01:17:00.439 --> 01:17:02.760
disability costs, how much the treatment costs,

01:17:02.840 --> 01:17:06.460
how much, you know, the mistakes by someone who's

01:17:06.460 --> 01:17:08.300
so exhausted that they just drove the rescue

01:17:08.300 --> 01:17:10.279
into a minivan full of kids. I mean, there is

01:17:10.279 --> 01:17:14.199
a dollar and cents amount attached to every single

01:17:14.199 --> 01:17:17.409
one of these issues. That would save money hand

01:17:17.409 --> 01:17:20.550
over fist if you just invested in a fourth shift,

01:17:20.689 --> 01:17:22.609
which would attract recruitment, have you fully

01:17:22.609 --> 01:17:25.470
staffed now, put in a fitness standard. And then

01:17:25.470 --> 01:17:27.350
all of a sudden you've got a much healthier,

01:17:27.369 --> 01:17:29.529
much happier department operating at a higher

01:17:29.529 --> 01:17:32.609
level with fewer mistakes and a healthy workforce.

01:17:32.930 --> 01:17:36.210
So it is just about courage, acknowledging that

01:17:36.210 --> 01:17:38.850
the way we do it just doesn't work. And then

01:17:38.850 --> 01:17:42.430
asking the country who's doing it well. How did

01:17:42.430 --> 01:17:45.060
you get there? Can you help us kind of figure

01:17:45.060 --> 01:17:47.199
out what steps we would have to do? And then

01:17:47.199 --> 01:17:50.500
boom, the rising tide lifts all ships. Yeah,

01:17:50.520 --> 01:17:53.079
I just was doing a presentation a couple of weeks

01:17:53.079 --> 01:17:57.340
ago to first responders. And the most recent

01:17:57.340 --> 01:18:05.000
stats I found from, I think it was from FBN.

01:18:05.039 --> 01:18:11.079
Anyway, 63 line of duty firefighter deaths were.

01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:15.880
were listed in 2024, and cancer and heart disease

01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:20.539
are still up there, but 132 suicides. And those

01:18:20.539 --> 01:18:23.619
don't get reported as line of duty. Sometimes

01:18:23.619 --> 01:18:26.699
they don't get tracked or reported at all. Another

01:18:26.699 --> 01:18:29.260
positive I'm seeing here locally, a friend of

01:18:29.260 --> 01:18:31.760
mine, a former police officer, runs our local

01:18:31.760 --> 01:18:35.430
three -county mental health recovery board. And

01:18:35.430 --> 01:18:38.310
he's real big right now. They're working for

01:18:38.310 --> 01:18:40.430
funding, working with embedding mental health

01:18:40.430 --> 01:18:44.909
folks with first responder agencies. So and it's

01:18:44.909 --> 01:18:48.229
it's kind of the hook. So the deal is embedding

01:18:48.229 --> 01:18:51.250
them and making them available to take out to

01:18:51.250 --> 01:18:54.109
medical mental health emergencies on the street.

01:18:54.250 --> 01:18:57.050
I mean, so maybe we take this person to care

01:18:57.050 --> 01:19:00.270
instead of jail or instead of the emergency room,

01:19:00.369 --> 01:19:02.130
we take them straight to the mental health office,

01:19:02.210 --> 01:19:04.090
that kind of stuff. But you're also building.

01:19:04.539 --> 01:19:07.199
a comfort and familiarity with mental health.

01:19:07.579 --> 01:19:11.840
Now everybody in the firehouse knows Carla. She's

01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:14.460
the mental health person. And they're more comfortable

01:19:14.460 --> 01:19:16.720
around that. And yeah, she'll come out and help

01:19:16.720 --> 01:19:19.300
you on a call when you've got someone who's having

01:19:19.300 --> 01:19:22.279
a crisis. But then she also comes in and sits

01:19:22.279 --> 01:19:25.020
around and has coffee at the firehouse. And we're

01:19:25.020 --> 01:19:28.520
gradually start changing that. And then she's

01:19:28.520 --> 01:19:31.000
also going to recognize things going on. And

01:19:31.000 --> 01:19:33.409
so I think that's a good thing. Our sheriff is

01:19:33.409 --> 01:19:36.250
working on it. Springfield Fire Department north

01:19:36.250 --> 01:19:39.729
of me is already doing it. They're working with

01:19:39.729 --> 01:19:42.569
the police. County to the east is doing it with

01:19:42.569 --> 01:19:46.630
the sheriff's office. So I think that's a positive

01:19:46.630 --> 01:19:51.770
thing to just make mental health normal. It's

01:19:51.770 --> 01:19:56.529
okay to talk about it. Absolutely. Yeah, it goes

01:19:56.529 --> 01:19:58.350
to what I was saying as well about at the front

01:19:58.350 --> 01:20:00.590
door, if you're having that conversation, acknowledging.

01:20:01.229 --> 01:20:03.229
what brought you here, then, you know, you've

01:20:03.229 --> 01:20:04.810
removed stigma. Cause that's the thing that I

01:20:04.810 --> 01:20:06.689
think we need to stop talking about removing

01:20:06.689 --> 01:20:09.229
stigma. Cause we, this is, you know, 2026, we

01:20:09.229 --> 01:20:11.630
need to be ahead of that. Now we get that stigma

01:20:11.630 --> 01:20:13.829
point and we need to, if there's stigma anywhere,

01:20:13.909 --> 01:20:15.829
it's the addiction side. So we gotta, we gotta

01:20:15.829 --> 01:20:19.069
pull that out too. But yeah, if you, if you literally

01:20:19.069 --> 01:20:21.529
normalize mental health from day one in the fire

01:20:21.529 --> 01:20:23.869
service, then there is no stigma. There's no

01:20:23.869 --> 01:20:26.130
stigma around PT and there will be no stigma

01:20:26.130 --> 01:20:29.380
around mental health. Yeah, it'd be great to

01:20:29.380 --> 01:20:31.180
first stay in a firehouse that you're introduced

01:20:31.180 --> 01:20:33.840
to everybody, including the social worker. Yeah.

01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:36.159
Who's just wearing a polo shirt and drinking

01:20:36.159 --> 01:20:38.300
a cup of coffee and say, hey, I'm here to help

01:20:38.300 --> 01:20:43.399
you. And this is normal instead of unusual. But

01:20:43.399 --> 01:20:46.180
what do they say? 200 years of tradition unaffected

01:20:46.180 --> 01:20:48.479
by change or whatever it is. Yeah, unimpeded

01:20:48.479 --> 01:20:54.050
by change. Yeah, it's, I think. I think we're

01:20:54.050 --> 01:20:56.909
on the right track and seeing folks like you,

01:20:56.989 --> 01:20:59.250
like Jimmy and his conference. It's just amazing

01:20:59.250 --> 01:21:02.310
to watch his growth there. Now he's talking about,

01:21:02.350 --> 01:21:04.550
you know, he's outgrown this bigger building.

01:21:04.609 --> 01:21:07.470
We found him at the fairgrounds. He outgrew the

01:21:07.470 --> 01:21:09.729
conference center at the hotel in Beaver Creek

01:21:09.729 --> 01:21:13.350
because we physically were in exotic Beaver Creek.

01:21:13.649 --> 01:21:18.770
But they filled up the little conference hall

01:21:18.770 --> 01:21:21.630
there. And then, unfortunately, the hotel also.

01:21:22.920 --> 01:21:25.300
jacked their prices way up. So I was able to

01:21:25.300 --> 01:21:26.920
connect him to the fairground folks and they

01:21:26.920 --> 01:21:29.600
worked out the deal there. And now they're filling

01:21:29.600 --> 01:21:31.119
that up and looking where we're going to move

01:21:31.119 --> 01:21:35.260
next. We're going to need a bigger boat. And

01:21:35.260 --> 01:21:38.880
that's great. And that's just grassroots. That's

01:21:38.880 --> 01:21:41.100
just Jim and Nick and everybody that's leaned

01:21:41.100 --> 01:21:43.979
in with him. And that's been pretty amazing too.

01:21:44.560 --> 01:21:50.340
Yeah. And it's, it's the, it's the peer. You're

01:21:50.340 --> 01:21:53.890
going to have, you know, Doctors and professionals

01:21:53.890 --> 01:21:55.810
in suits stay there and talk to you all day.

01:21:56.029 --> 01:22:00.390
But I took Ohio's peer support training class,

01:22:00.510 --> 01:22:06.630
and I partnered. There's two social workers that

01:22:06.630 --> 01:22:09.329
are my partners at this weekly group, and these

01:22:09.329 --> 01:22:12.130
guys come from an in -residence addiction treatment

01:22:12.130 --> 01:22:16.569
for veterans in Cincinnati. My biggest role is

01:22:16.569 --> 01:22:20.109
to just keep reinforcing, I did it, you can do

01:22:20.109 --> 01:22:23.069
it. Here's my survival story. Here's the tools

01:22:23.069 --> 01:22:25.729
I use. Here's what I do every day. The daily

01:22:25.729 --> 01:22:28.149
practice I learned at Sable Warrior. Here's the

01:22:28.149 --> 01:22:31.329
books I read. Here's how I learned that the power

01:22:31.329 --> 01:22:33.409
to heal me is inside me once I figure out how

01:22:33.409 --> 01:22:38.710
to get to it. And that may be more effective.

01:22:39.010 --> 01:22:42.550
I still need that clinical professional. But

01:22:42.550 --> 01:22:45.689
having that survivor who sits there and says,

01:22:45.869 --> 01:22:49.930
here's how I did it. You can do it, too, is huge.

01:22:50.170 --> 01:22:54.130
It was huge for me. When I had people tell me,

01:22:54.149 --> 01:22:58.109
you're going to be okay. Larry Turner says that

01:22:58.109 --> 01:23:00.050
about Save a Warrior all the time. He says, these

01:23:00.050 --> 01:23:02.369
people saved my life and I will forever do what

01:23:02.369 --> 01:23:05.409
they tell me to do. I'm going to pray. I'm going

01:23:05.409 --> 01:23:08.130
to meditate. I'm going to have a daily practice.

01:23:08.229 --> 01:23:10.850
I'm going to make my bed and do all the things

01:23:10.850 --> 01:23:15.310
that keep me well and at peace. Absolutely. I

01:23:15.310 --> 01:23:16.989
want to hit one more area, then we'll go to some

01:23:16.989 --> 01:23:19.449
closing questions. But you started the fire service,

01:23:19.609 --> 01:23:23.020
you know, so early i'm sure there'd been some

01:23:23.020 --> 01:23:26.579
incredible kind of you know metamorphosis so

01:23:26.579 --> 01:23:29.800
what what was the environment that you started

01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:32.880
in were you still open cab were you wearing scba

01:23:32.880 --> 01:23:34.899
kind of what was that front door for you and

01:23:34.899 --> 01:23:36.979
what have you seen as far as evolution in the

01:23:36.979 --> 01:23:40.460
time that you were riding the rig had a uh a

01:23:40.460 --> 01:23:43.880
plastic msa helmet and a long black rubber coat

01:23:43.880 --> 01:23:49.739
and pull -up boots and uh I started as a volunteer.

01:23:49.739 --> 01:23:53.020
We had jump seats, but the air packs were not

01:23:53.020 --> 01:23:56.899
mounted. They were in a box. And so first attack

01:23:56.899 --> 01:24:00.359
line was without SCBA. My first ever live fire

01:24:00.359 --> 01:24:04.100
training was without SCBA. Crawl in under the

01:24:04.100 --> 01:24:07.119
smoke. Keep your nose close to the nozzle. And

01:24:07.119 --> 01:24:10.979
I was with another trainee and there was a instructor,

01:24:11.140 --> 01:24:14.300
somebody behind us. And the guy in front of me

01:24:14.300 --> 01:24:17.430
panicked. He set up. He got a big. chest full

01:24:17.430 --> 01:24:20.430
of smoke and started coughing and he just bailed.

01:24:20.430 --> 01:24:22.970
He knocked both of us over running out of the

01:24:22.970 --> 01:24:26.630
house. And the instructor coached me forward

01:24:26.630 --> 01:24:29.909
to the nozzle. And eventually I got outside and

01:24:29.909 --> 01:24:31.869
I find myself on my hands and knees throwing

01:24:31.869 --> 01:24:34.710
up in the front yard. And someone pats me on

01:24:34.710 --> 01:24:40.789
the back and says, good job, rookie. So it was,

01:24:40.850 --> 01:24:45.850
we had no clue. And when I went in the military,

01:24:46.050 --> 01:24:49.050
in the Air Force, you did both crash aircraft

01:24:49.050 --> 01:24:51.630
firefighting and you did traditional structural

01:24:51.630 --> 01:24:54.170
firefighting. And at the time, they didn't even

01:24:54.170 --> 01:24:57.170
make fire engines with jump seats. We rode tailboard.

01:24:57.649 --> 01:25:01.010
And again, we had to get there and we started

01:25:01.010 --> 01:25:03.310
modifying things. We would take SCBA out of the

01:25:03.310 --> 01:25:06.029
box and put it on before we got on the tailboard,

01:25:06.130 --> 01:25:09.270
just try to speed things up. And some bases,

01:25:09.310 --> 01:25:11.409
they hung them on the wall behind the engine.

01:25:12.130 --> 01:25:14.609
And when I eventually was riding the rescue crew,

01:25:14.710 --> 01:25:17.829
we got permission to get brackets and mount them

01:25:17.829 --> 01:25:19.949
so we could put them on. It was a three -man

01:25:19.949 --> 01:25:22.949
crew in a Dodge Power Wagon with a utility body.

01:25:23.149 --> 01:25:26.069
And we could put them on and be ready to go when

01:25:26.069 --> 01:25:29.210
we got there. And I've seen the whole color change

01:25:29.210 --> 01:25:33.010
gamut from red to green to back to red to red.

01:25:33.270 --> 01:25:35.750
Now it's all two -tone. And now the whole black

01:25:35.750 --> 01:25:39.210
over red. Everybody wants to be Chicago. But,

01:25:39.289 --> 01:25:43.369
yeah, especially. The, what we used to call them

01:25:43.369 --> 01:25:48.430
night pants, which were the bunker pants. And

01:25:48.430 --> 01:25:51.270
then in the late 90s, oh my gosh, Nomex hoods.

01:25:51.329 --> 01:25:54.390
I was a captain in the late 90s. We were doing

01:25:54.390 --> 01:25:58.850
a full -time equivalent fire academy here. Folks

01:25:58.850 --> 01:26:00.590
wanted to take, they were volunteers and part

01:26:00.590 --> 01:26:02.170
-timers and they wanted to get the training to

01:26:02.170 --> 01:26:04.789
make them eligible for full -time jobs. And we

01:26:04.789 --> 01:26:06.930
had a local chief send a couple guys to it and

01:26:06.930 --> 01:26:09.819
they didn't have Nomex hoods. And we said, you

01:26:09.819 --> 01:26:11.760
have to have Nomex hoods. And this chief got

01:26:11.760 --> 01:26:15.140
really angry because he was an older chief who

01:26:15.140 --> 01:26:18.659
was all into the, no, your exposed ears will

01:26:18.659 --> 01:26:21.340
tell you when it's too hot and when to get out.

01:26:21.539 --> 01:26:23.600
And so we ended up giving them hoods out of our

01:26:23.600 --> 01:26:29.520
supply. But luckily, that's all gone. And then

01:26:29.520 --> 01:26:34.079
a big one, it was very much the culture of don't

01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:37.260
do anything until you're told to. Why train?

01:26:37.439 --> 01:26:39.260
You went to fire school, didn't you? What do

01:26:39.260 --> 01:26:42.340
you need to go to training for? You already know

01:26:42.340 --> 01:26:43.859
everything you need to know. Now just sit down

01:26:43.859 --> 01:26:45.600
and watch TV until someone makes you get up.

01:26:46.680 --> 01:26:49.560
And one of the first questions I got asked when

01:26:49.560 --> 01:26:50.960
I came home from active duty and went to work

01:26:50.960 --> 01:26:53.560
for the city, it wasn't, you know, you got this

01:26:53.560 --> 01:26:55.319
experience, the Air Force, can you drive a fire

01:26:55.319 --> 01:26:58.760
engine? You're an EMT, blah, blah, blah. It was,

01:26:58.779 --> 01:27:02.539
can you cook? That was their most important priority

01:27:02.539 --> 01:27:05.659
for a new guy. And when I said no, then I was

01:27:05.659 --> 01:27:12.479
worthless. And and then finally, again, health

01:27:12.479 --> 01:27:19.020
and physical fitness. Actually, in 2003, I actually

01:27:19.020 --> 01:27:21.500
was able to write. I was deputy chief here and

01:27:21.500 --> 01:27:27.640
I got a AFG grant for physical fitness for my

01:27:27.640 --> 01:27:30.340
department. And we did chest X -rays, medical

01:27:30.340 --> 01:27:35.600
screening. uh hep c testing or and uh and uh

01:27:35.600 --> 01:27:38.180
vaccinations and got physical fitness equipment

01:27:38.180 --> 01:27:39.779
and it's still there and they're still using

01:27:39.779 --> 01:27:41.479
it the young people are much more tuned into

01:27:41.479 --> 01:27:45.380
physical fitness now so that was a big uh evolutionary

01:27:45.380 --> 01:27:49.300
change in the job you just didn't think about

01:27:49.300 --> 01:27:55.119
it so yeah lots of stuff um it's fascinating

01:27:55.119 --> 01:27:59.239
to uh the changes and the uh still not a fan

01:27:59.239 --> 01:28:04.100
of the electronic pump panel Small things to

01:28:04.100 --> 01:28:07.020
go wrong. The computer that runs everything there

01:28:07.020 --> 01:28:09.359
now. I know we got a new ladder truck in the

01:28:09.359 --> 01:28:11.739
early 90s that had a computer -operated leveling

01:28:11.739 --> 01:28:17.399
system. Yeah, that went wrong a lot. It was out

01:28:17.399 --> 01:28:20.020
of service, I think, more than it was in service.

01:28:20.140 --> 01:28:21.760
And then we find out, well, our chief bought

01:28:21.760 --> 01:28:26.529
the first one. So that was never good. But, yeah,

01:28:26.609 --> 01:28:28.710
technology has made a lot of improvements. I'm

01:28:28.710 --> 01:28:32.270
just kind of old -fashioned in some things. But

01:28:32.270 --> 01:28:35.810
I love to see the young people willing to learn

01:28:35.810 --> 01:28:39.789
and ask questions and learn the Department of

01:28:39.789 --> 01:28:43.289
History and learn how things, you know, I used

01:28:43.289 --> 01:28:45.170
the term day boots once. You know, what are day

01:28:45.170 --> 01:28:46.869
boots? Well, you have day boots and night pants.

01:28:46.970 --> 01:28:49.750
Well, what's that? Well, they don't exist anymore.

01:28:49.829 --> 01:28:54.100
You wear them every day all the time. What about

01:28:54.100 --> 01:28:56.399
career calls? When you reflect back now, it doesn't

01:28:56.399 --> 01:28:58.800
have to be, air quotes, the worst ones, but just

01:28:58.800 --> 01:29:00.479
some of the ones that stuck in your mind, whether

01:29:00.479 --> 01:29:03.239
it was a rip in fire or maybe even just an act

01:29:03.239 --> 01:29:08.399
of kindness. Well, on the positive side, got

01:29:08.399 --> 01:29:13.380
to birth a baby once on Christmas Eve in a house

01:29:13.380 --> 01:29:17.380
with the third child. And I was a lieutenant

01:29:17.380 --> 01:29:20.260
on the engine. we chased the medic on the call

01:29:20.260 --> 01:29:22.699
it was that was the way we ran anything critical

01:29:22.699 --> 01:29:27.239
the engines going with them and um so that was

01:29:27.239 --> 01:29:30.720
fun uh because uh the guys took care of the baby

01:29:30.720 --> 01:29:32.960
and cut the to turn around and handed the baby

01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:35.319
to me and they they had like a towel and i took

01:29:35.319 --> 01:29:37.939
the towel and uh you know it was cold weather

01:29:37.939 --> 01:29:40.760
in the winter we used to wear our fire coat that's

01:29:40.760 --> 01:29:44.220
another change we didn't wash gear you wouldn't

01:29:44.220 --> 01:29:46.779
wash your gear for years but i had my fire coat

01:29:46.779 --> 01:29:50.739
on And I tucked the child inside and pulled the

01:29:50.739 --> 01:29:52.840
coat around. And there was a female police officer

01:29:52.840 --> 01:29:54.739
there. She goes, oh, let me have the baby. I

01:29:54.739 --> 01:29:56.539
said, I'm doing just fine. I'm going to keep

01:29:56.539 --> 01:30:00.500
the baby. And then I went downstairs and introduced

01:30:00.500 --> 01:30:02.920
him to his older brother and sister and sat down

01:30:02.920 --> 01:30:04.560
on the couch and waited until the guys brought

01:30:04.560 --> 01:30:07.279
mom down on the stair chair and got her on the

01:30:07.279 --> 01:30:09.420
cot. And off we went to the hospital and the

01:30:09.420 --> 01:30:11.279
baby back once they got in the medic. That was

01:30:11.279 --> 01:30:15.300
pretty cool. The other major event, we're known

01:30:15.300 --> 01:30:18.930
for some tornadoes here. And I was in junior

01:30:18.930 --> 01:30:22.550
high school when the big one hit in 74. And then

01:30:22.550 --> 01:30:25.270
we had a small one in 89. I was working at the

01:30:25.270 --> 01:30:28.409
firehouse that night. And then by the last huge

01:30:28.409 --> 01:30:30.930
one we had was in 2000. I was a deputy chief

01:30:30.930 --> 01:30:34.609
and just got home from the firehouse. I'm on

01:30:34.609 --> 01:30:38.630
40 hours now. And it hit at 530 something in

01:30:38.630 --> 01:30:42.550
the afternoon. And I don't think I went into

01:30:42.550 --> 01:30:46.489
work and set up. area command for the north half

01:30:46.489 --> 01:30:49.670
of the area that was devastated and came home

01:30:49.670 --> 01:30:52.770
about a week later. But we learned a lot. We

01:30:52.770 --> 01:30:56.609
learned a lot of hard lessons. And that led to

01:30:56.609 --> 01:31:00.289
then 12 different departments in this county

01:31:00.289 --> 01:31:02.850
that all tried to act like they were the Lone

01:31:02.850 --> 01:31:05.449
Ranger, finally getting together. And eventually

01:31:05.449 --> 01:31:07.510
I was a fire chief or the neighboring fire chief,

01:31:07.590 --> 01:31:10.289
developing automatic aid, central dispatching,

01:31:10.329 --> 01:31:14.859
things that everybody's just routine now. We

01:31:14.859 --> 01:31:19.260
did a lot of work to train together and work

01:31:19.260 --> 01:31:21.960
to the point that now pretty much any fire response

01:31:21.960 --> 01:31:24.800
is going to have probably engines and ladders

01:31:24.800 --> 01:31:27.539
from three different departments on it on the

01:31:27.539 --> 01:31:29.439
first alarm just automatically build in. And

01:31:29.439 --> 01:31:32.399
that was unheard of when I first started. Old

01:31:32.399 --> 01:31:35.220
chiefs were like, when I get there, I'll decide

01:31:35.220 --> 01:31:38.840
if it's big enough to need help. How did you

01:31:38.840 --> 01:31:41.500
navigate that? Sorry to butt in, but this is

01:31:41.500 --> 01:31:43.100
something I talked about a lot. I remember a

01:31:43.100 --> 01:31:44.859
call I had, and I've talked about it here a few

01:31:44.859 --> 01:31:49.319
times, on the edge of the Orange County and Orlando

01:31:49.319 --> 01:31:52.600
line. I mean, Orange County, technically still,

01:31:52.779 --> 01:31:56.380
we're on a medical call, but it's a densely packed

01:31:56.380 --> 01:31:59.960
trailer park, old, with a load of trees, and

01:31:59.960 --> 01:32:06.789
the electricity line is sparking. So we are literally,

01:32:06.930 --> 01:32:10.050
we have an imminent, you know, tree fire that's

01:32:10.050 --> 01:32:13.149
going to turn into multiple trailers. And I'm

01:32:13.149 --> 01:32:15.850
calling my dispatch and I'm saying, we need an

01:32:15.850 --> 01:32:17.409
engine because I'm just on a regular medical

01:32:17.409 --> 01:32:20.350
rescue. And I'm looking at Orlando Station 5,

01:32:20.529 --> 01:32:23.069
like one block away from where I am. And I'm

01:32:23.069 --> 01:32:24.569
arguing with the dispatcher. I'm like, look,

01:32:24.590 --> 01:32:27.250
just send the city. Oh, we need to check for

01:32:27.250 --> 01:32:29.329
a suit. No, no, no. I'm looking at the station.

01:32:29.409 --> 01:32:32.619
Just send the city. But this ego that county

01:32:32.619 --> 01:32:35.979
and city don't talk together or PD and FD don't

01:32:35.979 --> 01:32:39.659
talk together is nauseating because it's just

01:32:39.659 --> 01:32:42.979
egos. And it does such a disservice to the people

01:32:42.979 --> 01:32:45.520
that we actually serve. So when you had these

01:32:45.520 --> 01:32:47.920
chiefs with these egos, how were you able to

01:32:47.920 --> 01:32:51.100
navigate that and bring all these agencies together

01:32:51.100 --> 01:32:53.600
and work together for the betterment of the people

01:32:53.600 --> 01:32:57.079
in Ohio? Well, I guess the first thing was that.

01:32:57.850 --> 01:32:59.869
jeff and i he was the city chief i'm the township

01:32:59.869 --> 01:33:02.130
chief we're we're joined at the hip because the

01:33:02.130 --> 01:33:06.210
township completely surrounds the city um they're

01:33:06.210 --> 01:33:08.890
they're minimal staffed all full -time more combination

01:33:08.890 --> 01:33:11.930
most of the area departments are going combination

01:33:11.930 --> 01:33:15.890
uh we we tackled it together we worked it out

01:33:15.890 --> 01:33:21.010
an idea and a plan we had this we we had a central

01:33:21.010 --> 01:33:23.770
dispatch center had been created that most agencies

01:33:23.770 --> 01:33:27.159
were in but it Nobody used the full capability

01:33:27.159 --> 01:33:30.380
to build alarms and build boxes and build backups.

01:33:31.140 --> 01:33:34.239
And then we had this complicated four -digit

01:33:34.239 --> 01:33:37.699
coded numbering system for vehicles that you

01:33:37.699 --> 01:33:39.460
really didn't say engine or medic. You didn't

01:33:39.460 --> 01:33:41.300
know what it was unless you knew the secret code.

01:33:41.859 --> 01:33:45.279
And the tornado was really, I think, the catalyst

01:33:45.279 --> 01:33:47.939
that we finally got together and said, look.

01:33:49.040 --> 01:33:52.100
our response was a disaster. We couldn't talk

01:33:52.100 --> 01:33:53.979
to each other. We didn't have any common tactical

01:33:53.979 --> 01:33:57.539
channels. We had different dispatch centers and

01:33:57.539 --> 01:34:00.340
law enforcement was disconnected. We had neighborhoods

01:34:00.340 --> 01:34:02.680
that got missed on search and neighborhoods that

01:34:02.680 --> 01:34:04.619
got searched two or three times because of a

01:34:04.619 --> 01:34:08.920
lack of an EOC. The other thing, the city had

01:34:08.920 --> 01:34:11.060
created their own EOC, but they wouldn't work

01:34:11.060 --> 01:34:13.119
with anybody else. So what came out of this was

01:34:13.119 --> 01:34:15.659
another thing is the county actually hired an

01:34:15.659 --> 01:34:17.539
emergency operations center director and created

01:34:17.539 --> 01:34:20.399
one to to serve the entire county. It was just

01:34:20.399 --> 01:34:23.579
slow and gradual and common sense. A lot of leaning

01:34:23.579 --> 01:34:30.720
on the NIMS typing standards of naming apparatus,

01:34:30.819 --> 01:34:34.060
what they are and what their function is. So

01:34:34.060 --> 01:34:36.039
we fully know what resource is coming when we

01:34:36.039 --> 01:34:38.380
hear it on the radio. And finally, it came down

01:34:38.380 --> 01:34:41.739
to one chief in one city in the corner that literally

01:34:41.739 --> 01:34:44.460
said, okay, I'm in. I just can't change my station

01:34:44.460 --> 01:34:46.060
numbers because we're looking at like a total

01:34:46.060 --> 01:34:48.539
overhaul. Because everybody's got their own station

01:34:48.539 --> 01:34:51.500
one, station two. And we need to, we want to

01:34:51.500 --> 01:34:54.180
create this county two -digit numbering system

01:34:54.180 --> 01:34:57.760
that, and this guy's like, I can't do that or

01:34:57.760 --> 01:35:00.220
the union will file agreements. He says, I can't

01:35:00.220 --> 01:35:02.000
make any changes in that area or my union will

01:35:02.000 --> 01:35:03.920
file agreements. We said, why? Because they grieve

01:35:03.920 --> 01:35:07.159
everything. I can't change the toilet paper roll

01:35:07.159 --> 01:35:11.140
without agreements. And we're like. okay we'll

01:35:11.140 --> 01:35:13.680
make you one two three and four over there and

01:35:13.680 --> 01:35:17.479
then we'll pick up with 10 11 12 you know and

01:35:17.479 --> 01:35:20.640
uh gradually it worked out and then that began

01:35:20.640 --> 01:35:23.539
gradually sitting down literally with spreadsheets

01:35:23.539 --> 01:35:28.439
of if medic 31 is busy what's the next medic

01:35:28.439 --> 01:35:31.819
what's going to be 51 here 52 here how do we

01:35:31.819 --> 01:35:33.680
build this in that it happens automatically so

01:35:33.680 --> 01:35:37.100
we take away that need for somebody Because going

01:35:37.100 --> 01:35:38.899
all the way back to the volunteer days, if somebody

01:35:38.899 --> 01:35:41.279
was gone to work and they're not answering the

01:35:41.279 --> 01:35:45.079
pager and dispatch centers would just keep dropping

01:35:45.079 --> 01:35:49.800
tones and nobody says a word about, and the dispatchers

01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:52.800
aren't empowered to go ahead and send the closest

01:35:52.800 --> 01:35:55.260
as you're, it makes no sense. Those lines on

01:35:55.260 --> 01:35:57.880
the map. Cause we saw you literally somebody

01:35:57.880 --> 01:35:59.800
be responding, come to the city limit and just

01:35:59.800 --> 01:36:04.600
stop and park. I can't go out there. Politicians.

01:36:05.450 --> 01:36:07.529
We'll drive a lot of that because well that you

01:36:07.529 --> 01:36:09.130
know, we paid for that ladder truck. It doesn't

01:36:09.130 --> 01:36:11.670
belong out there They don't understand mutual

01:36:11.670 --> 01:36:13.890
aid. They see everything as dollars and cents

01:36:13.890 --> 01:36:17.130
It's definitely come a long way. I'm really proud.

01:36:17.630 --> 01:36:19.810
Nobody knows we did it You know the guys of us

01:36:19.810 --> 01:36:23.409
that were around 20 some years ago None of these

01:36:23.409 --> 01:36:24.909
young people know we did it. They take it for

01:36:24.909 --> 01:36:26.310
granted. This is the way things have always been.

01:36:26.470 --> 01:36:29.250
But the incident management system, the resource

01:36:29.250 --> 01:36:31.949
typing was a big resource. We just need to simplify

01:36:31.949 --> 01:36:34.710
this, use plain language, get rid of all the

01:36:34.710 --> 01:36:37.250
codes and signals we used to use. None of that

01:36:37.250 --> 01:36:41.569
makes any sense to worry about someone. What's

01:36:41.569 --> 01:36:44.609
the security of hearing someone on their scanner

01:36:44.609 --> 01:36:47.460
in their house that we're... transporting someone

01:36:47.460 --> 01:36:49.579
to the hospital. We're not violating anybody's

01:36:49.579 --> 01:36:52.939
rights or that we're going to ask for another

01:36:52.939 --> 01:36:57.079
engine or whatever. Just keep it simple. And

01:36:57.079 --> 01:36:59.699
so they just, you know, technology and everything,

01:36:59.720 --> 01:37:01.539
it keeps growing and it's been really cool to

01:37:01.539 --> 01:37:05.659
watch it evolve and watch it happen. You mentioned

01:37:05.659 --> 01:37:07.479
tornadoes. I've asked a couple of people that

01:37:07.479 --> 01:37:09.060
have been from parts of the country where they

01:37:09.060 --> 01:37:12.279
have a lot of them too. In Florida, when we have

01:37:13.180 --> 01:37:15.500
hurricanes bearing down it's it's big big news

01:37:15.500 --> 01:37:17.779
and we have national weather people suddenly

01:37:17.779 --> 01:37:20.079
arrive here and sometimes they'll even you know

01:37:20.079 --> 01:37:21.739
pretend there's a big hurricane when there isn't

01:37:21.739 --> 01:37:23.840
you know they'll be in the water and then someone's

01:37:23.840 --> 01:37:27.260
walking their dog behind them um but yeah a lot

01:37:27.260 --> 01:37:29.800
of these tornadoes are catastrophic and they

01:37:29.800 --> 01:37:32.100
kill you know tens and tens and tens of people

01:37:32.100 --> 01:37:34.840
in these towns and it doesn't feel like they

01:37:34.840 --> 01:37:37.699
get the same attention when it comes to the media

01:37:38.430 --> 01:37:40.409
I don't know whether it may be because these

01:37:40.409 --> 01:37:43.369
are more densely populated cities, the earthquakes

01:37:43.369 --> 01:37:46.449
or the hurricanes. What is your perspective on

01:37:46.449 --> 01:37:49.689
the exposure and or the resources for some of

01:37:49.689 --> 01:37:54.069
these tornadoes that you have where you are in

01:37:54.069 --> 01:37:56.470
comparison to some of the other large events

01:37:56.470 --> 01:38:01.350
that did seem to make news a lot more, for a

01:38:01.350 --> 01:38:04.449
lot longer, should I say? I don't have any experience

01:38:04.449 --> 01:38:06.350
responding to a hurricane, but having watched

01:38:06.350 --> 01:38:11.079
them. got family on the panhandle coast in florida

01:38:11.079 --> 01:38:15.699
obviously it's much larger weather event it's

01:38:15.699 --> 01:38:18.600
going to impact a much larger area all at the

01:38:18.600 --> 01:38:21.859
same time but on the flip side of that emergency

01:38:21.859 --> 01:38:24.840
services and and anybody and everybody's got

01:38:24.840 --> 01:38:27.979
days to prepare for that because you're watching

01:38:27.979 --> 01:38:30.779
it on radar and through hurricane hunters and

01:38:30.779 --> 01:38:33.600
stuff move towards you. And it's changing tracks

01:38:33.600 --> 01:38:36.500
a little bit here. The difference in Midwestern

01:38:36.500 --> 01:38:39.800
weather is right now we have a thunderstorm watch

01:38:39.800 --> 01:38:42.979
for Thursday evening, Friday, Thursday evening

01:38:42.979 --> 01:38:47.460
for like four until midnight. And then that can

01:38:47.460 --> 01:38:49.199
escalate depending on the conditions. But we

01:38:49.199 --> 01:38:53.140
seldom get 10 minutes warning that a tornado

01:38:53.140 --> 01:38:55.770
is coming. So you can't disperse. You can't staff

01:38:55.770 --> 01:38:58.329
up. You can't make sure you've got enough water

01:38:58.329 --> 01:38:59.909
stocked away. You kind of got to be ready for

01:38:59.909 --> 01:39:02.130
it all times because they happen very suddenly.

01:39:02.289 --> 01:39:05.930
And in some cases, there's no, and it's weird,

01:39:06.050 --> 01:39:09.550
but September 20th of 2000, like I said, I was

01:39:09.550 --> 01:39:12.310
the deputy chief. It was raining that day. There

01:39:12.310 --> 01:39:15.369
were some storms here and there. I came home

01:39:15.369 --> 01:39:18.609
and had just eaten dinner and look out the front

01:39:18.609 --> 01:39:21.289
window and we're getting hit. And there was not

01:39:21.289 --> 01:39:23.569
even a watch that day saying conditions were

01:39:23.569 --> 01:39:27.770
right. And tornadoes do a lot of devastation,

01:39:27.789 --> 01:39:31.630
but it's more localized. I think the 74 tornado

01:39:31.630 --> 01:39:35.310
had a path at its widest was about a mile wide

01:39:35.310 --> 01:39:38.550
damaged path. Often it narrows down more. And

01:39:38.550 --> 01:39:40.470
if it hits a rural area like I live north of

01:39:40.470 --> 01:39:43.449
town, it went right down the road over the hill

01:39:43.449 --> 01:39:46.630
from us and knocked down several barns. But luckily,

01:39:46.710 --> 01:39:49.069
it didn't sit down in the populated area five

01:39:49.069 --> 01:39:52.189
miles south. It sat down there. So that's the

01:39:52.189 --> 01:39:55.850
difference, I think, from a responder situation

01:39:55.850 --> 01:40:00.050
is I don't have time to stock up, get ready,

01:40:00.210 --> 01:40:03.810
pre -stage stuff. I better have that ready in

01:40:03.810 --> 01:40:07.590
the season. And again, September is not normally

01:40:07.590 --> 01:40:11.130
tornado season. But we've had some bad ones around

01:40:11.130 --> 01:40:13.550
here in September. And that one in particular,

01:40:13.770 --> 01:40:16.310
there was. No weather watches or warnings out

01:40:16.310 --> 01:40:18.170
that day at all, just a pop -up thunderstorm.

01:40:19.529 --> 01:40:22.710
So it's not an exact science, I guess. What about

01:40:22.710 --> 01:40:25.369
the national attention, though? I feel like some

01:40:25.369 --> 01:40:28.310
of these tornado events have killed a huge amount

01:40:28.310 --> 01:40:30.890
of people, but they don't seem to have the same

01:40:30.890 --> 01:40:36.250
exposure than some of these other weather events.

01:40:36.409 --> 01:40:39.810
And I wonder, is it just because they're not

01:40:39.810 --> 01:40:42.449
New York, L .A., Miami, or is there some other

01:40:42.449 --> 01:40:49.510
reason? I, uh, I think it, so it might've got

01:40:49.510 --> 01:40:51.750
some national media for a minute that we had

01:40:51.750 --> 01:40:54.810
this big tornado here in September, 2000. But

01:40:54.810 --> 01:40:58.510
when you go back to 74, uh, they now look back,

01:40:58.590 --> 01:41:01.449
that was an entire front that came across the

01:41:01.449 --> 01:41:04.510
United States. It spawned like 97 tornadoes across

01:41:04.510 --> 01:41:07.649
the Midwest that day that got a lot of media

01:41:07.649 --> 01:41:11.189
attention. And it's, uh, and the other thing

01:41:11.189 --> 01:41:15.890
is, uh, The hurricane, so you get a tornado watch.

01:41:16.170 --> 01:41:17.829
You really don't get a hurricane watch because

01:41:17.829 --> 01:41:19.430
you're watching it build. You're watching this

01:41:19.430 --> 01:41:22.550
hurricane come at you for days. So that's all

01:41:22.550 --> 01:41:24.510
the red meat the media wants, the attention,

01:41:24.670 --> 01:41:28.029
the clicks, the advertisers to see. It's hard

01:41:28.029 --> 01:41:31.010
to do that with a tornado because all you can

01:41:31.010 --> 01:41:32.750
say is, hey, there's a watch, there's a warning.

01:41:32.930 --> 01:41:35.310
We don't know what's going to happen. And so

01:41:35.310 --> 01:41:37.979
it doesn't get. all the focus media attention,

01:41:38.220 --> 01:41:40.779
I think. And unless it's multiple tornadoes across

01:41:40.779 --> 01:41:45.260
a large area that damages multiple areas, you

01:41:45.260 --> 01:41:48.420
kind of spread out a hurricane -like level of

01:41:48.420 --> 01:41:50.560
damage, it doesn't get the same media attention.

01:41:50.880 --> 01:41:55.539
It does get, we had good support from FEMA at

01:41:55.539 --> 01:41:59.960
the time and from Ohio EMA and learned a lot.

01:42:00.319 --> 01:42:03.579
So it gets the resources. It doesn't get all

01:42:03.579 --> 01:42:07.090
the media love, I guess. Brilliant. All right.

01:42:07.090 --> 01:42:10.170
Well, then moving on. So the equine therapy that

01:42:10.170 --> 01:42:11.770
you offer now, as you said, you know, you have

01:42:11.770 --> 01:42:14.409
it in your own place. So talk to me about, you

01:42:14.409 --> 01:42:16.510
know, what you offer and how people can find

01:42:16.510 --> 01:42:20.729
you there. So we're here, as I said, Southwest

01:42:20.729 --> 01:42:25.329
Ohio. Look at our website, which I think I'll

01:42:25.329 --> 01:42:29.630
send you. You put up when we and call me. My

01:42:29.630 --> 01:42:31.449
cell phone number is the only number we have.

01:42:31.609 --> 01:42:34.949
We don't need a referral from a. mental health

01:42:34.949 --> 01:42:36.729
professional. If you have one already, that's

01:42:36.729 --> 01:42:39.310
great because I want to work with them and coordinate

01:42:39.310 --> 01:42:45.090
processing the stuff that we do. And just check

01:42:45.090 --> 01:42:48.729
your fears. And some of the people that I found

01:42:48.729 --> 01:42:51.050
a little bit, if you think you have horse experience,

01:42:51.369 --> 01:42:54.170
you don't need to show me that. And some people

01:42:54.170 --> 01:42:56.090
with a lot of horse experience, myself included,

01:42:56.329 --> 01:42:59.909
at some point in my therapy, they said, look,

01:42:59.989 --> 01:43:02.350
stop showing us what you know about horses. You're

01:43:02.350 --> 01:43:07.800
here for you. And then we got a kind of eight

01:43:07.800 --> 01:43:10.539
structured sessions that teach these different

01:43:10.539 --> 01:43:13.180
things. But it works well for type A veterans

01:43:13.180 --> 01:43:15.579
and first responders because you're moving with

01:43:15.579 --> 01:43:17.659
the horse, doing activities and getting feedback

01:43:17.659 --> 01:43:20.439
and you're learning at the same time. So and

01:43:20.439 --> 01:43:23.659
that's it. No charge. And the farm is Vegas.

01:43:24.060 --> 01:43:27.500
What goes here stays here. Nobody, especially

01:43:27.500 --> 01:43:30.500
the horse, is going to judge you. And we do this

01:43:30.500 --> 01:43:34.430
just. I'm not retired. God repurposed me. And

01:43:34.430 --> 01:43:38.590
we're on a healing journey. And this is part

01:43:38.590 --> 01:43:41.289
of my healing is to continue to do this and help

01:43:41.289 --> 01:43:43.210
others find the peace. I'm blessed. A lot of

01:43:43.210 --> 01:43:45.689
good people help me. I just want to pay it forward

01:43:45.689 --> 01:43:49.329
a little bit. Absolutely. Well, I want to throw

01:43:49.329 --> 01:43:51.029
some quick closing questions at you before I

01:43:51.029 --> 01:43:54.029
let you go. The first one I love to ask, is there

01:43:54.029 --> 01:43:56.489
a book or are there books that you love to recommend?

01:43:56.729 --> 01:43:59.050
It can be related to our discussion today or

01:43:59.050 --> 01:44:05.210
completely unrelated. I'm a big fan of an author.

01:44:05.250 --> 01:44:07.970
He just passed away last year, Tim Hayes, who

01:44:07.970 --> 01:44:12.310
is a horseman late in life. But he did a study

01:44:12.310 --> 01:44:15.850
and wrote a book called Riding Home, The Power

01:44:15.850 --> 01:44:20.810
of Horses to Heal. I actually gift them to my

01:44:20.810 --> 01:44:22.989
clients when they, I don't know if I can get

01:44:22.989 --> 01:44:25.770
that off the glare, but you can see it. Nope,

01:44:25.829 --> 01:44:29.380
guess not. I have a box of them because when

01:44:29.380 --> 01:44:31.640
folks finish our program, I give them a copy

01:44:31.640 --> 01:44:33.960
of this. And it's got a lot of great stories

01:44:33.960 --> 01:44:35.600
that he went out and researched everything from

01:44:35.600 --> 01:44:39.520
children's to veterans to prisoners incarcerated,

01:44:39.920 --> 01:44:42.380
working with horses and finding peace. That's

01:44:42.380 --> 01:44:46.359
one of my favorites. Beautiful. What about television

01:44:46.359 --> 01:44:54.079
documentaries or films? Well, I try not to watch

01:44:54.079 --> 01:44:57.960
anything that has commercials. If there's something

01:44:57.960 --> 01:45:01.819
I like. Yeah, I'm a military history geek and

01:45:01.819 --> 01:45:05.560
I love Westerns, anything with a horse. But we

01:45:05.560 --> 01:45:09.819
just lost Robert Duvall. And a great actor with

01:45:09.819 --> 01:45:13.399
such a range of so many great things. But in

01:45:13.399 --> 01:45:16.560
the 80s, I read the book Lonesome Dove. And I

01:45:16.560 --> 01:45:18.720
actually have a copy of it here. And I have the

01:45:18.720 --> 01:45:22.640
prequel and the sequel that Larry McCurry wrote.

01:45:23.579 --> 01:45:26.619
And I loved that book. And when I saw the miniseries

01:45:26.619 --> 01:45:31.060
coming out, not only Robert Duvall, but Tommy

01:45:31.060 --> 01:45:34.720
Lee Jones, those guys just nailed those characters,

01:45:34.840 --> 01:45:38.159
brought them to life. and that will forever be

01:45:38.159 --> 01:45:40.939
my favorite thing to view. It's a television

01:45:40.939 --> 01:45:45.699
miniseries, and I've seen it many times, and

01:45:45.699 --> 01:45:50.380
it's just a great story. The guy, he's King Arthur

01:45:50.380 --> 01:45:53.659
in a cowboy hat. He's a knight on an old cow

01:45:53.659 --> 01:45:57.020
horse. It's a great story if you get to read

01:45:57.020 --> 01:45:59.739
it and to watch the miniseries also. Lonesome

01:45:59.739 --> 01:46:02.479
Dove. Brilliant. I appreciate that. Thank you.

01:46:02.960 --> 01:46:04.979
All right. The next question. Is there a person

01:46:04.979 --> 01:46:07.460
that you recommend to come on this podcast as

01:46:07.460 --> 01:46:10.500
a guest to speak to the first responders, military

01:46:10.500 --> 01:46:14.539
and associated professions of the world? You

01:46:14.539 --> 01:46:17.439
probably had everybody because anybody that I

01:46:17.439 --> 01:46:19.460
would know is already in that circle with Jim

01:46:19.460 --> 01:46:22.380
and his program and Jake and Save a Warrior.

01:46:22.520 --> 01:46:33.300
And off the top of my head, I might ask. My sheriff,

01:46:33.359 --> 01:46:36.859
Scott Anger, he's a pretty neat guy. Started

01:46:36.859 --> 01:46:39.460
as a police officer and was eventually a sergeant

01:46:39.460 --> 01:46:41.319
and then captain running the drug task force.

01:46:41.500 --> 01:46:44.399
And then he was selected to be chief deputy by

01:46:44.399 --> 01:46:47.039
our former sheriff, Gene Fisher. And Gene, unfortunately,

01:46:47.159 --> 01:46:51.569
died very suddenly four years ago. As much as

01:46:51.569 --> 01:46:53.609
we hate that, Scott stepped in as doing a great

01:46:53.609 --> 01:46:57.949
job. He's a very calm, peaceful man. He's a good

01:46:57.949 --> 01:46:59.710
leader for the sheriff's office. He really cares

01:46:59.710 --> 01:47:02.170
about us. And he's really leaned into mental

01:47:02.170 --> 01:47:05.529
health for law enforcement. I can ask him if

01:47:05.529 --> 01:47:08.189
he'd be interested. Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank

01:47:08.189 --> 01:47:10.689
you. With that being said, you just popped something

01:47:10.689 --> 01:47:13.710
in my head. You'd be an interesting kind of perspective

01:47:13.710 --> 01:47:18.529
of this. What is your perspective on some of

01:47:18.529 --> 01:47:22.880
these sheriffs? theatrics that we see these days

01:47:22.880 --> 01:47:26.020
putting themselves out as this kind of you know

01:47:26.020 --> 01:47:29.140
western cowboy you know hang them high kind of

01:47:29.140 --> 01:47:31.619
uh caricature that we're seeing some of these

01:47:31.619 --> 01:47:34.619
people start to put out i i haven't watched a

01:47:34.619 --> 01:47:37.100
lot of it but i know from traveling because wyoming

01:47:37.100 --> 01:47:39.699
is one of my favorite places in the world uh

01:47:39.699 --> 01:47:41.859
the first time we traveled out there we were

01:47:41.859 --> 01:47:44.460
stopped getting gas and a deputy sheriff climbed

01:47:44.460 --> 01:47:47.760
out of his car wearing a western hat and my wife

01:47:47.760 --> 01:47:50.859
says The guy's wearing a cowboy hat and uniform.

01:47:51.039 --> 01:47:53.819
I said, it is his uniform. So for Texas Rangers,

01:47:54.060 --> 01:47:55.800
a lot of folks, it's a part of the culture. It's

01:47:55.800 --> 01:48:01.819
part of the horseman culture. And although, as

01:48:01.819 --> 01:48:04.020
I tell people, this is a Western hat, not a cowboy

01:48:04.020 --> 01:48:06.100
hat. I've got a horse I can ride, but I can't

01:48:06.100 --> 01:48:09.659
rope. So I'm not a cowboy. So I don't know. I

01:48:09.659 --> 01:48:14.119
haven't seen a lot of that as far as I've seen

01:48:14.119 --> 01:48:17.170
some. And I'm like. okay whatever works for you

01:48:17.170 --> 01:48:19.869
if i was in that position i wouldn't do it i

01:48:19.869 --> 01:48:22.729
think like our sheriff he wears the same uniform

01:48:22.729 --> 01:48:25.130
we wear every day you've got different badges

01:48:25.130 --> 01:48:27.670
and stuff on it but he doesn't try to do anything

01:48:27.670 --> 01:48:29.729
to stand out and be special and when i was a

01:48:29.729 --> 01:48:34.710
chief of the arson bureau i still unless i had

01:48:34.710 --> 01:48:37.670
to go downtown to a meeting i didn't wear class

01:48:37.670 --> 01:48:41.670
a's or a suit i was in the same polo and 511s

01:48:41.670 --> 01:48:44.090
all the guys were because at any minute i'm going

01:48:44.090 --> 01:48:46.630
to a scene That was a blessing. The marshal did

01:48:46.630 --> 01:48:48.470
not make me sit in the office in Columbus. He

01:48:48.470 --> 01:48:51.149
let me go wherever something was going on in

01:48:51.149 --> 01:48:53.430
the state. And I was, you know, technology wise,

01:48:53.489 --> 01:48:56.069
I was able to be connected through radio and

01:48:56.069 --> 01:49:02.670
computers and stuff. So just, yeah, be humble.

01:49:02.729 --> 01:49:04.970
And, you know, if your people aren't allowed

01:49:04.970 --> 01:49:08.050
to do that, then don't do that. Setting that

01:49:08.050 --> 01:49:10.579
example is critically important. There we go.

01:49:10.680 --> 01:49:13.239
Love it. All right. Well, the last question before

01:49:13.239 --> 01:49:15.500
we just reiterate where people can find you,

01:49:15.619 --> 01:49:20.140
what do you do to decompress? I shut the gate

01:49:20.140 --> 01:49:23.119
to the road and putter around the barns. There's

01:49:23.119 --> 01:49:26.140
always something to do. And sometimes if I'm

01:49:26.140 --> 01:49:29.579
like when I go out to feed or do something with

01:49:29.579 --> 01:49:32.579
the horses, they'll tell me right away just by

01:49:32.579 --> 01:49:35.359
how they react to me, whether I got something

01:49:35.359 --> 01:49:39.979
in my head or not. And now I catch it. I know,

01:49:40.039 --> 01:49:43.140
oh, something, what's going on? So I've got a

01:49:43.140 --> 01:49:44.720
little two -minute grounding thing where I'll

01:49:44.720 --> 01:49:47.199
sit down and do an extra meditation. And then

01:49:47.199 --> 01:49:51.520
I'll just climb in to the pen out by the barns

01:49:51.520 --> 01:49:54.159
and spend some time just hands -on and hugging

01:49:54.159 --> 01:49:57.680
them and bring my energy down. And then I'll

01:49:57.680 --> 01:49:59.699
go about what I'm doing. But we like to garden.

01:50:00.859 --> 01:50:04.100
We grow more vegetables than we can use. And

01:50:04.100 --> 01:50:05.619
we give them to the neighbors and take them to

01:50:05.619 --> 01:50:08.699
the food pantry. just to give back. I'm active

01:50:08.699 --> 01:50:11.720
as a leader in my church and take care of some

01:50:11.720 --> 01:50:14.720
stuff there. But yeah, I've found a lot of peace.

01:50:15.300 --> 01:50:17.479
Getting ready to get a coop and get a couple

01:50:17.479 --> 01:50:21.300
of chickens and have our own eggs. I don't think

01:50:21.300 --> 01:50:23.079
I'm going to get the beehive going this year.

01:50:23.180 --> 01:50:26.939
It's much more complex than I expected. I got

01:50:26.939 --> 01:50:29.380
two more weeks of classes and then I'd have to

01:50:29.380 --> 01:50:30.720
assemble the equipment. But that's something

01:50:30.720 --> 01:50:35.579
I want to do. Just nature and husbandry. Love

01:50:35.579 --> 01:50:40.569
to hike. I love to trail ride my horse and anything

01:50:40.569 --> 01:50:44.930
outdoors. That's always good for my soul. You

01:50:44.930 --> 01:50:47.409
just jolted my memory for a second. I want to

01:50:47.409 --> 01:50:49.670
put one more thing in there before I let you

01:50:49.670 --> 01:50:52.970
go. When I spent that time with yourself and

01:50:52.970 --> 01:50:56.250
Doc and your wife, I think it was your wife initially

01:50:56.250 --> 01:50:59.270
was talking about one of the people that you

01:50:59.270 --> 01:51:02.689
worked with, if I'm remembering rightly, wasn't

01:51:02.689 --> 01:51:06.220
doing very well mentally. And sat in a chair

01:51:06.220 --> 01:51:09.340
and the horse actually ended up like putting

01:51:09.340 --> 01:51:11.460
their head on them on the chair, like almost

01:51:11.460 --> 01:51:13.399
leaning into them completely. Does that ring

01:51:13.399 --> 01:51:17.500
a bell with you? It actually is an unusual. So

01:51:17.500 --> 01:51:20.260
I said I learned the warrior meditation practice,

01:51:20.359 --> 01:51:22.699
the 20 minute meditation model at Save a Warrior.

01:51:23.260 --> 01:51:26.899
And so, again, not only is this redneck meditating,

01:51:27.220 --> 01:51:30.920
I'm teaching it to other people. So when we do

01:51:30.920 --> 01:51:32.840
that, we take a couple of lawn chairs out into

01:51:32.840 --> 01:51:35.470
the arena. And I tell them to close their eyes.

01:51:35.510 --> 01:51:38.229
I'll keep an eye open for safety. And we go through

01:51:38.229 --> 01:51:41.630
this process. And it's a three phase model. And

01:51:41.630 --> 01:51:43.970
always by the end of the second phase, the horse

01:51:43.970 --> 01:51:47.930
starts to come closer. And in some cases, the

01:51:47.930 --> 01:51:53.130
horse and it's weird. I don't know why. And I

01:51:53.130 --> 01:51:55.670
try not to get attached to any expectations.

01:51:57.069 --> 01:52:01.149
It's my horse, but it almost always go to the

01:52:01.149 --> 01:52:04.689
warrior client. stand close to them and we're

01:52:04.689 --> 01:52:08.229
like 10 feet apart and then very often rest their

01:52:08.229 --> 01:52:10.329
nose on their shoulder or the top of their head

01:52:10.329 --> 01:52:15.550
or something and pick up a foot and relax and

01:52:15.550 --> 01:52:19.149
just be still with that change in energy and

01:52:19.149 --> 01:52:21.829
yeah it's brought some people to tears and that's

01:52:22.800 --> 01:52:24.960
That's the power of these amazing animals that

01:52:24.960 --> 01:52:28.000
you go in there fearing this thousand pound crazy

01:52:28.000 --> 01:52:30.279
thing that'll bite, kick and kill you. And you

01:52:30.279 --> 01:52:32.500
find this gentle thing that just wants to be

01:52:32.500 --> 01:52:35.920
close to you. And you feel that and you get the

01:52:35.920 --> 01:52:37.760
tears and then you get the smiles and I get paid.

01:52:39.739 --> 01:52:42.489
Well, yeah, you put it into. what we hear all

01:52:42.489 --> 01:52:45.630
the time, which is the father or mother who's

01:52:45.630 --> 01:52:47.590
a first responder and they're riddled with guilt

01:52:47.590 --> 01:52:50.430
because their kids are on eggshells. Well, this

01:52:50.430 --> 01:52:53.109
horse gets to be a mirror for you. And so then,

01:52:53.109 --> 01:52:55.210
you know, you're also able to see, well, okay,

01:52:55.310 --> 01:52:57.069
now I can do the same thing before I walk through

01:52:57.069 --> 01:52:59.789
the door. And so that way, maybe kind of, you

01:52:59.789 --> 01:53:02.289
know, take it down a few notches and actually

01:53:02.289 --> 01:53:05.989
be that kind of calm parent again, shedding off

01:53:05.989 --> 01:53:07.970
what I've just seen or done, you know, the few

01:53:07.970 --> 01:53:10.960
hours prior. So I think the horses are great

01:53:10.960 --> 01:53:13.600
mirrors, as Buck says. It really is that you

01:53:13.600 --> 01:53:16.779
can then carry over to your family. They will

01:53:16.779 --> 01:53:19.159
reflect. If you go out there with anxiety, they're

01:53:19.159 --> 01:53:21.520
going to get some anxiety and move away. And

01:53:21.520 --> 01:53:24.800
that's not the first reaction most people have

01:53:24.800 --> 01:53:27.640
is, oh, the horse doesn't like me. That's where

01:53:27.640 --> 01:53:29.300
they're very different from dogs, because my

01:53:29.300 --> 01:53:31.119
dog is going to sit at my feet and bark at you

01:53:31.119 --> 01:53:34.140
because you're a stranger and I'm familiar. The

01:53:34.140 --> 01:53:37.939
horse is different psychologically. You're the

01:53:37.939 --> 01:53:40.319
being in this space, and I don't want to be alone,

01:53:40.560 --> 01:53:42.819
but I don't feel good about your energy, so I'm

01:53:42.819 --> 01:53:44.479
going to move over here until your energy changes.

01:53:44.739 --> 01:53:47.560
And that's not judgmental. It's not like or dislike.

01:53:47.760 --> 01:53:50.659
It's just their nature. And then I learn, it's

01:53:50.659 --> 01:53:54.600
not the horse, it's me. And how do I change that?

01:53:54.720 --> 01:53:56.859
How do I, through breathing, through mindfulness,

01:53:57.060 --> 01:53:59.720
through meditation, through understanding how

01:53:59.720 --> 01:54:03.800
to... you know reset my my brain uh get that

01:54:03.800 --> 01:54:07.180
amygdala out of control and uh and quit hijacking

01:54:07.180 --> 01:54:09.939
me into anger and flight all the time and and

01:54:09.939 --> 01:54:12.960
be at peace and then you'll see that change and

01:54:12.960 --> 01:54:16.539
the horse comes back each session the cool thing

01:54:16.539 --> 01:54:19.239
is that um we used to do an exercise to save

01:54:19.239 --> 01:54:21.399
a warrior we'd have five warriors and one horse

01:54:21.399 --> 01:54:23.560
in a round pen we'd send guys in one at a time

01:54:23.560 --> 01:54:26.520
and each one would have a different experience

01:54:28.569 --> 01:54:30.310
the horse would react differently to each one

01:54:30.310 --> 01:54:31.729
because the energy is different from each one.

01:54:31.829 --> 01:54:33.989
And these guys got to see that. And I remember

01:54:33.989 --> 01:54:39.189
once a guy went in there years ago and the horse

01:54:39.189 --> 01:54:43.229
reacted kind of negatively and literally turned

01:54:43.229 --> 01:54:45.590
and kind of bounced his hips a couple of times

01:54:45.590 --> 01:54:49.750
like he was going to kick. And that guy immediately

01:54:49.750 --> 01:54:53.350
turned around and he says, he's a big guy, combat

01:54:53.350 --> 01:54:56.060
veteran. And he says, you know, my wife's five

01:54:56.060 --> 01:54:57.699
foot and a hundred pounds. And I just realized

01:54:57.699 --> 01:55:00.279
how scared she is when I get angry because that

01:55:00.279 --> 01:55:02.920
thing just scared the crap out of me. He says,

01:55:02.939 --> 01:55:05.619
I had no idea how she felt. And he started crying.

01:55:06.220 --> 01:55:09.579
And then horse came back over and laid his head

01:55:09.579 --> 01:55:13.420
on his shoulder. And then someone says, hey,

01:55:13.460 --> 01:55:15.119
hug the horse. I got to hug the horse, hug the

01:55:15.119 --> 01:55:16.579
horse. And this guy's like, nope, I got what

01:55:16.579 --> 01:55:19.619
I need. I'm done. And he was ready to come out.

01:55:21.149 --> 01:55:23.430
You can't make it up, and it never gets old,

01:55:23.529 --> 01:55:28.130
and it's always amazing. Well, I want to thank

01:55:28.130 --> 01:55:30.609
you so much. It's been such a great conversation.

01:55:30.970 --> 01:55:33.710
I mean, again, your own life journey and all

01:55:33.710 --> 01:55:36.409
the different uniforms that you've worn in itself

01:55:36.409 --> 01:55:40.170
is so unique, but the vulnerability, the courageous

01:55:40.170 --> 01:55:42.529
vulnerability that you've had to not only...

01:55:42.760 --> 01:55:45.199
address your own struggles and find the toolbox

01:55:45.199 --> 01:55:47.119
that was unique for you but then to become a

01:55:47.119 --> 01:55:50.260
mentor in that space as well and educate us not

01:55:50.260 --> 01:55:52.319
only you know on this conversation today but

01:55:52.319 --> 01:55:54.460
i literally got to spend time with you and doc

01:55:54.460 --> 01:55:56.819
um and and feel it myself and it was phenomenal

01:55:56.819 --> 01:55:59.020
it really was it was a complete reset for me

01:55:59.020 --> 01:56:01.800
so i want to thank you so much for being so generous

01:56:01.800 --> 01:56:03.979
with your time and coming on the behind the shield

01:56:03.979 --> 01:56:07.180
podcast today well you're absolutely worth it

01:56:07.180 --> 01:56:09.560
anybody that gets anything out of it uh you know

01:56:09.560 --> 01:56:11.640
all that uniform stuff i know now was totally

01:56:11.640 --> 01:56:14.489
dysfunctional and not good for me, but it put

01:56:14.489 --> 01:56:18.630
me here. So Garth Brooks said, I could have missed

01:56:18.630 --> 01:56:20.210
the pain, but then I'd have missed the dance.

01:56:20.310 --> 01:56:21.189
And I'm dancing.