WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

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always, my name is James Geering, and this week

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it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,

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retired ATF special agent, law enforcement instructor,

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and the author of Becoming Fire, Jennifer Eskew.

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Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host

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of topics, from her journey into the world of

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law enforcement, drug prohibition, her own powerful

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mental health story, catharsis through writing,

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and so much more. Now, before we get to this

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incredible conversation, as I say every week,

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please just take a moment, go to whichever app

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you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 1 ,200 episodes

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now. So all I ask in return is that you help

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share these incredible men and women's stories

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so I can get them to every single person on planet

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Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being

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said, I introduce to you Jennifer Eskew. Enjoy.

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Well, Jennifer, I want to start by saying thank

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you so much for taking the time and coming on

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the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you

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very much, James. I appreciate that. I appreciate

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the invite a whole lot. Well, I'm glad you're

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on here. So where on planet Earth are we finding

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you today? I live in coastal Georgia. That's

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where I. sort of semi -retired to at the end

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of my law enforcement career and uh it's i want

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to tell you it's beautiful warm and sunny but

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that little cold nor 'easter kind of changed

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our weather just a little bit but it's warming

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back up i actually when i worked out this morning

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i worked out outside so it's warm enough for

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that excellent yeah that that one even in florida

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we felt it it was not i like the cold because

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we still have the blue skies but yeah it was

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certainly pretty frigid here You get the blue

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sky, the sunshine, and you're going, ooh, it's

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chilly. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's start at the

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very beginning of your timeline then. So tell

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me where you were born and tell me a little bit

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about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. Okay. I was born in Kenbridge,

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Virginia. It's a little small town in the southern

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part of Virginia, really close to the North Carolina

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border. It's known as the South Side. When people

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talk about Virginia, they usually know about

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Nova or Northern Virginia. I'm exactly opposite

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of that. So down in the south side, it's a lot

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of farming communities. Tobacco used to be the

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thing there for about 400 years, and now it's

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a little variety of crops. The main activities

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there are hunting, fishing, four -wheeling. That's

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kind of it, family time. And there's a few other

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things. Everybody goes to the same school. At

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least when I grew up, we all went to the same

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school because there was one school system. You

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went to that school. So you grew up knowing everybody.

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My parents, my dad, he is the oldest son of eight

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kids. And he grew up as a sharecropper or the

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oldest son of a sharecropper. And he did that

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until he was about 15. He took a factory job

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then and dropped out of school. And he was able

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to go into the Navy during the Korean War. Served

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for four years. Met my mom right at the very

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end of that time. She was also from back at the

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same time. Happened to come home one weekend

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and they met. She grew up as the oldest kid of

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10. And they got married in 1955 and stayed married

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52 years until he passed away. That was 2006,

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almost 2007. Anyway, let's see. From that, my

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mom was a home beautician, full -time. Mom to

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two kids, me and my younger sister, Katrina.

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And she did everything. My mom did everything.

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If you can name it, you know, my dad worked railroad,

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but he also farmed tobacco full time, which meant

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if you grew up on a farm, you worked a farm,

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too. So we also had chickens and pigs and a calf

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or two and things like that. We raised enough

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garden that everybody got to raise and get garden

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vegetables that needed it, that couldn't that

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didn't have a garden. I lived in the woods. I

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lived outside. I was an outdoor kid the whole

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time. Tomboy from the get go. Right behind my

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dad, every step he ever took, always with him.

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My mom made sure we had everything we ever needed.

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You know, between working, you know, Monday through

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Friday and sometimes Saturdays, being called

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into the funeral home occasionally to help out

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to do someone's hair, things like that. She took

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on jobs like that. But she was also a huge volunteer.

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So her biggest thing with volunteering, besides

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with her church, was giving people in the community

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a ride if they had cancer and needed treatment

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because the nearest place you could go was Richmond,

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Virginia, which was a little over an hour away

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to drive to. So she would take off a day just

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to be able to take them. She did that for decades.

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It wasn't just a one -time thing. She did it

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for everybody, whether she knew you or didn't.

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She got to know you. She sewed. She started sewing

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when she was a little kid, when she was about

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five or six. She bought her first sewing machine

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when she was 17. I have it. Just before she met

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my dad. She worked as a telephone operator back

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then to save money to be able to do that. So

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I came from the working class, straight up working

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class. That's how we were. That's how everybody

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was. I mean, when kids talked about, oh, you

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had to work on the farm. That didn't faze anybody

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because everybody that grew up in our community

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worked on a farm someplace, if not their farm,

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a family member's farm. So Kimmeridge was rural.

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It was nice. You only had like a couple of police

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officers, that sort of thing. You didn't really

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see a lot of police. I never saw female police.

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I saw them on TV. And I ended up going to college

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at Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Virginia.

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It was new, exciting, big, different. Loved it.

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Loved every minute of it. Made great friends

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there. In fact, my best friend, Sandy, we've

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been friends since we were 18. So we're still

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friends here at 63 and pushing. Well, going back

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to your upbringing first, as we sit here in 2026,

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there... There's a lot of fractures to community,

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partly because in cities we've got so many human

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beings just stacked vertically on top of each

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other, partly because of the pigeonholing of

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certain people on your political persuasion or

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your religious persuasion or whatever it is.

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And I feel like the remedy to a lot of the issues

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that we have at the moment is exactly how we

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used to live in these small communities where

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people knew each other, where you policed yourself

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so you didn't need the level of kind of tactical

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wearing police that we see in the cities now.

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When you reflect back now, talk to me about the

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pros of that kind of upbringing where you had.

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a small amount of people so that you were able

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to to know everyone and as the the quote says

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you know it takes a village you were able to

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basically raise each other i think we've gotten

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away from that and i i get it where there's there's

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a lot more people um there's a lot of influx

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of of people still coming in um but that's how

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our country was built i mean that that's how

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we started i mean you know The very first people

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to arrive here came down, as they say, down through

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the Bering Strait and down through Canada and

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started settling all over North America and down

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further, central, south. But at the same time,

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they started coming from Europe. They also came

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from the opposite end. I mean, they came from

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everywhere to come here. We have a great country.

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I love our country. I've traveled quite a bit

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all over the world, mostly for work, sometimes

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for pleasure. And you're not going to find a

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better place in the United States, no matter

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how many problems we seem to have. Somehow or

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another, we get those things sorted out, and

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we always step up for other people. We always

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have. We always will. That's just who we are.

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We are a country of fighters, and I don't mean

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that in a bad way. I mean that as in, hey, you

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don't push us. We're going to push back. We're

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not going to let something get us down. We just

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have to find our way. We have to figure out how

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to get back on our feet to fight and what to

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do. And we have to work out our differences every

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once in a while. There's always going to be differences.

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Oh, my goodness. Have you ever been to a Thanksgiving

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with anybody? Yes. There's always differences.

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It doesn't matter what you're talking about.

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There's always differences. Everybody has their

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own opinion. And they're entitled to it, and

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they need to be able to keep that bit of those,

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all the freedoms we've been given, need to be

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able to keep those intact because people come

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here from all over the world. They will die to

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get here from all over the world seeking those

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freedoms. I'm not saying open up the border wide

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open. You still have to do the things that we've

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set in motion to do it lawfully. Once those people

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get here, you will see people who have always

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struggled and worked to get ahead, to do, to

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have something. They're entrepreneurs. And we

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brought in some great minds from all over. What

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I see in the small town life, and I think back,

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I get to reflect on a lot, especially when I

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was writing. I got to reflect on how I grew up.

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A lot of us were still in this same sort of socioeconomic

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level of money. There were people who were poor.

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There were people who had more, but not to great

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extremes. And I think that was something that

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was good. But all the jobs were right there.

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There were lots of factories in our community

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and our region to offer jobs. in that area. Those

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jobs all started going away in the early 80s.

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I remember in the 70s when we were raising tobacco,

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men from the government, as I would hear them

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talk about it in a little country store, my aunt

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and uncle's country store, had come by and they

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were recruiting some of the farmers to see if

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they wanted to go overseas to teach people how

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to raise tobacco. And these men, they took it

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all in. You know, a lot of these guys, they had

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never graduated high school, but they were now

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raising families and running 500 -acre farms

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and doing everything they could to get by. And

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they started asking questions back, like, well,

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that pay is good, and it's this, it's that. But

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where's this tobacco going? Who's buying this

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tobacco? Oh, well, the American tobacco companies

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are going to help. They're going to buy. We're

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going to do this to help them develop their countries.

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And the tobacco farmers are going, what about

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the tobacco we grow? We're already having a hard

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time. We're struggling. If we teach them and

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they start buying from them, where's this market

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coming from? What is the plan? What's the next

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step? They were asking a lot of questions about

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what was next when you start doing that. I see

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and hear that with the cattle farming people

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now. I do pay attention to some of the business

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news. I like business news. And they ask these

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questions and it's legitimate questions. You

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know, we used to raise so much cattle that we

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were selling beef all over the world that suddenly

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now our beef prices are super high and it's become

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very expensive. And so we're getting beef from

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other parts of the world. We're bringing more

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and more and more of that in and chicken and

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seafood and you name it. Yeah, making that balance

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and work for everybody, that's tough. I like

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the idea of growing up and having the way I was

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raised. I love the fact that my great nieces

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and great nephews, I call them the giggly bunch,

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that they are being raised in that way, that

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the farm is still there. There are people who

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do move down to that part of the state now and

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think that they're going to. you know, get a

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piece of land. They're going to do this. They're

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going to do that. Then they find out it's hard

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because it's like, no, we don't have a movie

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theater. We don't have a McDonald's. They talked

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about getting a McDonald's. It hadn't happened

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yet. So if you want to get something, you know,

00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:18.600
run by Timmy's Grocery in Victoria, Virginia

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and get a Timmy dog because he's been right there

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since, oh, I don't know, like 40, 45 years, you

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know, or go by Vaughn's, you know, get something

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there, you know, I mean. there's only a handful

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of places you can stop. And then when you do

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stop, you're going to see a bunch of people you

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know, so you're going to get to chat with them

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because everybody knows everybody. They used

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to have a newspaper that came out once a week,

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but that stopped. I don't think everybody's getting

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their news from online. They're still getting

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it from, well, texting on the cell phone now

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instead of calling one another. But you learn

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a lot about growing up in a small town or in

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a rural area, and those rural areas are still

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very much like that. And I think there are people

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in the metropolitan areas who want to move out

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to that. And at the same time, it kind of scares

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them. You know, I don't think we're clinging

00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:12.779
to God and guns as we've been accused of in the

00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:16.519
past. Everything. But people do believe in freedom

00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:19.240
of religion and they do believe in the right

00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:21.480
to bear firearms in those communities, along

00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:23.139
with everything else. They believe in all of

00:14:23.139 --> 00:14:27.139
that. When you look at the older gentlemen who,

00:14:27.179 --> 00:14:29.500
well, a lot of them have passed away now. the

00:14:29.500 --> 00:14:32.740
ones I grew up, they fought in World War II.

00:14:32.860 --> 00:14:35.080
They fought in Korea. They fought in Vietnam.

00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:40.360
So they come home because they want the freedoms

00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:42.320
that they've had in the U .S. and they want to

00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:44.580
keep doing. They want their families to succeed,

00:14:44.779 --> 00:14:48.679
then the next families to succeed. I've worked

00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:50.679
in the metropolitan areas. I've seen how things

00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.440
are. I wish there were more job opportunities

00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.289
in some of those places. But I also wish the

00:14:56.289 --> 00:14:58.809
jobs would come back to or hope they come back

00:14:58.809 --> 00:15:02.350
to the rural areas, too. You know, our community,

00:15:02.470 --> 00:15:05.190
one of the things that I grew up in, one of the

00:15:05.190 --> 00:15:08.970
things that they now look at very close by is

00:15:08.970 --> 00:15:16.190
the growth of the need for the clouds, the cloud

00:15:16.190 --> 00:15:19.629
farms, you know, that sort of thing. So that's

00:15:19.629 --> 00:15:21.169
going on there now. They're starting to look

00:15:21.169 --> 00:15:23.590
at that and go, wait a minute, how much water

00:15:23.590 --> 00:15:27.440
do you need? So there's a lot of things like

00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:30.100
that. How much land is this going to take? How

00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:31.919
many jobs is this actually going to bring to

00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.179
our community? Or we're still not going to get

00:15:34.179 --> 00:15:36.440
anything out of it? So everybody's wondering,

00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.360
what are we getting for this? What's a cloud

00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:42.700
farm? Educate me. Oh, what's a cloud farm? Oh,

00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:45.200
yeah. Well, Microsoft showed up, I don't know

00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:47.559
how many years ago now, probably 20, 25 maybe,

00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:51.980
in Southside, Virginia. And they bought up this

00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:55.360
huge chunk of land and they built, A lot of fences.

00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.820
And it made it very, very secure. I understand

00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:01.299
from the people who get to go there, it's like

00:16:01.299 --> 00:16:06.019
Fort Knox Plus or Plus Plus. And there are these

00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:08.860
giant types of warehouse building type things.

00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:12.179
And inside is the cloud because the cloud's not

00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:16.659
in the clouds. It's right here on ground. They

00:16:16.659 --> 00:16:18.779
need a lot of power. They need a lot of energy.

00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:22.720
And as AI technology grows and AI growth expands,

00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:25.519
they need even more. And they need even more.

00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:28.919
Because even though we're looking at micro SD

00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:31.120
cards and little chips and things like that,

00:16:31.620 --> 00:16:34.399
there's going to take a whole lot of space and

00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.019
a whole lot of need to have those things. And

00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:39.820
those things are growing everywhere. Virginia,

00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.299
North Carolina, those are just some of the places.

00:16:42.299 --> 00:16:46.340
Georgia. Everybody's looking at it. So it's not

00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:50.860
just needing the chips and the processors and

00:16:50.860 --> 00:16:52.480
all these things that they've decided they want

00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.240
to bring back to the U .S. to make and where

00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:58.899
to make those at, but it is also having a cloud

00:16:58.899 --> 00:17:01.539
farm, a place to put all this stuff on the cloud

00:17:01.539 --> 00:17:04.140
nowadays. And it has to be protected because

00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:07.119
it can't ever shut down. It must always have

00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.539
power. You can never have it hacked. You can

00:17:10.539 --> 00:17:15.990
never have it turn off. So they're very secure

00:17:15.990 --> 00:17:19.069
facilities and they're growing by leaps and bounds.

00:17:20.589 --> 00:17:23.710
You mentioned tobacco and it's interesting. I'm

00:17:23.710 --> 00:17:26.470
sure we'll get into this with drug prohibition

00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:30.170
and all the stuff that you did in uniform. But

00:17:30.170 --> 00:17:34.049
when we have this conversation about decriminalization

00:17:34.049 --> 00:17:36.109
and therefore cutting the head off the snake

00:17:36.109 --> 00:17:39.789
of the illicit drug trade, one of the things

00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:42.950
as well, the farmers rely on the drug trade.

00:17:43.369 --> 00:17:45.430
for whatever crops because they're being paid

00:17:45.430 --> 00:17:48.690
for opium or marijuana, whatever the thing is.

00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:52.190
But obviously, it's a very kind of tunnel vision

00:17:52.190 --> 00:17:54.029
way of looking at it because they're farms. And

00:17:54.029 --> 00:17:56.430
before all that stuff, these people were growing

00:17:56.430 --> 00:17:59.589
oranges and almonds and whatever else was growing

00:17:59.589 --> 00:18:02.609
at that time. Fruits and veggies. Exactly. And

00:18:02.609 --> 00:18:04.390
then you look at the lessons that we learned

00:18:04.390 --> 00:18:06.710
from COVID, which was there was a massive supply.

00:18:07.470 --> 00:18:09.670
you know, bottleneck because we were relying

00:18:09.670 --> 00:18:12.329
on these massive farms that in turn had put out,

00:18:12.369 --> 00:18:14.490
you know, put small farms out of business for

00:18:14.490 --> 00:18:17.349
a long time. I feel like we need to, going back

00:18:17.349 --> 00:18:20.049
again to that community mentality, there needs

00:18:20.049 --> 00:18:23.109
to be a push to support local farming, to have

00:18:23.109 --> 00:18:25.869
local agriculture. So they don't have to grow,

00:18:26.009 --> 00:18:28.029
you know, something that is detrimental like

00:18:28.029 --> 00:18:30.150
tobacco. They can go back to growing food and

00:18:30.150 --> 00:18:32.569
raising cattle. And the Shenandoah Valley is

00:18:32.569 --> 00:18:35.250
obviously, is the regenerative farming you have

00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:38.799
there with Joel Slatton. I just had a Navy SEAL

00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.660
on the show, Sean, who's doing the same thing,

00:18:41.779 --> 00:18:44.660
Primal Beef. So you're seeing those industries

00:18:44.660 --> 00:18:47.779
trying to start again. And I think what we need

00:18:47.779 --> 00:18:51.380
to do as a nation with all these subsidies that

00:18:51.380 --> 00:18:55.029
we give. giant corporations is to give local

00:18:55.029 --> 00:18:58.069
farming that so that every community has that

00:18:58.069 --> 00:19:00.329
ability and then obviously they can grow enough

00:19:00.329 --> 00:19:03.450
to then feed the cities as well which don't have

00:19:03.450 --> 00:19:06.009
the capacity to grow because they're paved and

00:19:06.009 --> 00:19:08.650
full of buildings but i think that the way we

00:19:08.650 --> 00:19:12.009
breathe life back into smaller communities is

00:19:12.009 --> 00:19:14.769
to do exactly what used to support them which

00:19:14.769 --> 00:19:21.000
was agriculture very much um i'll I grew up on

00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.140
fresh vegetables and stuff. Now, did I like picking

00:19:24.140 --> 00:19:26.240
green beans? No, I didn't. They were a pain in

00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:30.759
the ass. Okay. It's not just picking them. You

00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.160
find yourself sitting on either grandma's porch

00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:35.819
or on the back porch there at our house or whatever.

00:19:36.019 --> 00:19:38.140
But you find yourself having to sit there with

00:19:38.140 --> 00:19:41.619
a big old pan of them or basket of them. And

00:19:41.619 --> 00:19:44.400
you have to snap the beans and string the beans.

00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:45.940
You got to get the little ends off. You got to

00:19:45.940 --> 00:19:47.160
do this. You got to break them in half. You got

00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.789
to put. Okay. When you're a kid, that's the last

00:19:49.789 --> 00:19:51.569
thing you want to do. And even worse than that

00:19:51.569 --> 00:19:53.529
was butter beans, butter beans. I love butter

00:19:53.529 --> 00:19:55.970
beans. That's the baby limas, but butter beans.

00:19:57.410 --> 00:20:00.029
Those things, shelling those with your fingers,

00:20:00.089 --> 00:20:01.349
and you're little, and you're like nine years

00:20:01.349 --> 00:20:03.289
old, and my thumb is getting raw from doing this.

00:20:03.329 --> 00:20:07.049
You hate that sort of thing. You know, that was

00:20:07.049 --> 00:20:08.769
really picky. I always tell my dad, grow the

00:20:08.769 --> 00:20:11.369
silver queen corn. I didn't like the golden.

00:20:11.470 --> 00:20:13.130
I liked the silver queen corn because it was

00:20:13.130 --> 00:20:15.269
sweeter. I loved that. It was much, much sweeter,

00:20:15.349 --> 00:20:18.880
much better. And we grew everything. And my dad,

00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.440
even when he got older, because I'm getting there

00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.160
now, and he had retired. The next thing you know,

00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.339
he increased garden space. He wasn't growing

00:20:28.339 --> 00:20:30.799
tobacco. He increased garden space. Next thing

00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.000
you know, he's got four gardens. And he's telling

00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.119
me, because I'm asking him, why do you need so

00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:37.940
much? Because it was a lot. We're talking acres.

00:20:38.539 --> 00:20:41.420
And he goes, well, those old people at the church,

00:20:41.539 --> 00:20:44.930
they need this. You're one of them. What are

00:20:44.930 --> 00:20:48.970
you talking about, Dad? And, of course, my mom

00:20:48.970 --> 00:20:50.910
was always on. My dog just walked in the door.

00:20:52.089 --> 00:20:59.470
My mom was always canning and freezing and learning

00:20:59.470 --> 00:21:01.789
the better ways to cook things. So most of the

00:21:01.789 --> 00:21:05.009
stuff we grew up with as kids was fresh. off

00:21:05.009 --> 00:21:07.390
the farm and then cooked for us and or it was

00:21:07.390 --> 00:21:11.029
canned or frozen or maintained in some way so

00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:13.049
that we like potatoes we kept them in the basement

00:21:13.049 --> 00:21:16.289
um and so you could use them until the next year

00:21:16.289 --> 00:21:19.289
when you grew more and and the cycle kept going

00:21:19.289 --> 00:21:22.549
we were not we went to the grocery store but

00:21:22.549 --> 00:21:24.730
that was to get the things you needed so much

00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:28.130
you know the spices the things uh the loaf bread

00:21:28.130 --> 00:21:31.650
because we didn't make bread um you know of course

00:21:31.650 --> 00:21:34.119
everybody gets soda So to pop those sort of things

00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:35.980
too and all, you know, those sort of things.

00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.380
We would buy a ham from Dewey Folks because he

00:21:41.380 --> 00:21:44.960
had a hog farm. I mean, so he, you know, so we

00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:51.579
asked where our hams came from. We would, chickens,

00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:53.420
we had our own chickens, we had our own eggs,

00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:55.460
but a lot of neighbors had chickens and had eggs.

00:21:56.299 --> 00:21:58.819
I was a little kid, and I mean, I'm little, like

00:21:58.819 --> 00:22:01.279
six years old, and I remember chasing a chicken

00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.759
down to the yard. and catching the chicken. And

00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:06.980
as soon as I caught the chicken, the lady that

00:22:06.980 --> 00:22:09.160
helped out at the house while my mom was working,

00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:11.299
and my mom had a six -year -old and a three -year

00:22:11.299 --> 00:22:13.660
-old, so she looked after us and helped clean

00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:16.180
the house and all. Part of one of her things

00:22:16.180 --> 00:22:17.980
that she would do is after I caught the chicken,

00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:22.420
she would take care of, a nice way to put it,

00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.920
was processing it, was processing that chicken

00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:28.500
so that when my mama got off work, she could

00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:32.160
then fix chicken that night for supper. you know

00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:35.819
and uh you know so it was literally fresh off

00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:37.960
the farm and i didn't realize that my chasing

00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:39.579
down that chicken and catching it was going to

00:22:39.579 --> 00:22:41.740
be my fried chicken i did but i didn't it just

00:22:41.740 --> 00:22:44.960
it was one of those things going you know you

00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.519
know you know you just catch that red hen okay

00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:53.019
i got that um there's a lot of things like that

00:22:53.019 --> 00:22:59.089
that um the uh People need to be able to go back

00:22:59.089 --> 00:23:00.869
to farming. They need to be able to have that.

00:23:02.269 --> 00:23:06.210
They have farmer's markets throughout. There's

00:23:06.210 --> 00:23:08.130
a farmer's market in our hometown and stuff because

00:23:08.130 --> 00:23:11.069
not everybody has the equipment to raise a garden

00:23:11.069 --> 00:23:13.170
or has the land to raise a garden, and that's

00:23:13.170 --> 00:23:15.970
perfectly fine. Or they don't raise every type

00:23:15.970 --> 00:23:17.950
of vegetable that they want or every type of

00:23:17.950 --> 00:23:20.670
fruit that they want. When my parents got rid

00:23:20.670 --> 00:23:23.529
of the tobacco around 1981, my mother said, let's

00:23:23.529 --> 00:23:26.369
raise blackberries. We'd always picked wild blackberries.

00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.789
The next thing you know, my dad's putting in

00:23:28.789 --> 00:23:32.130
these long rows up on trellises, blackberry vines

00:23:32.130 --> 00:23:35.950
that they'd ordered and they had blackberries.

00:23:36.049 --> 00:23:39.069
And so my Jerry's berries, that was her name,

00:23:39.130 --> 00:23:41.789
Jerry. And so she had blackberries and that was

00:23:41.789 --> 00:23:43.470
something that people would come out to the farm

00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:45.130
and pick or my mom would go out there and pick

00:23:45.130 --> 00:23:47.509
them. She loved it. She said it was therapeutic.

00:23:47.609 --> 00:23:50.430
And I'm like, it looks like more work because

00:23:50.430 --> 00:23:52.250
everything she did was always like more work.

00:23:52.289 --> 00:23:55.349
But she said sewing was. therapeutic that she

00:23:55.349 --> 00:24:00.470
sewed until she was in her 80s um um in the middle

00:24:00.470 --> 00:24:02.230
of her dementia i actually took her to a sewing

00:24:02.230 --> 00:24:05.130
store joanne's fabric and she came completely

00:24:05.130 --> 00:24:08.829
out of the dementia and i thank goodness i recorded

00:24:08.829 --> 00:24:10.809
it because it was just fabulous it was like oh

00:24:10.809 --> 00:24:13.730
my goodness she was just she was at home again

00:24:13.730 --> 00:24:16.769
she was in joanne's fabrics uh i think that's

00:24:16.769 --> 00:24:18.650
gone out of business now which is sad but uh

00:24:18.650 --> 00:24:23.309
yeah um There's things that we need in the tobacco

00:24:23.309 --> 00:24:27.509
stuff you talked about. It supported this country

00:24:27.509 --> 00:24:30.410
for 400 years. Now we're going way away from

00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:32.230
tobacco. And I don't have a problem with people

00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:34.170
not wanting to smoke. I didn't smoke. My dad

00:24:34.170 --> 00:24:37.069
didn't want me to smoke. He smoked. I didn't.

00:24:38.029 --> 00:24:41.670
My mom says that she smoked back in the 50s,

00:24:41.670 --> 00:24:44.609
but that she stopped. And I never saw her smoke.

00:24:45.289 --> 00:24:47.289
I gave it a try when I was working undercover.

00:24:50.070 --> 00:24:54.549
Mostly as a sort of a stress thing. But I didn't

00:24:54.549 --> 00:24:56.470
continue with it. It was like, you know, for

00:24:56.470 --> 00:24:58.109
about a year. And I was like, nope, I don't need

00:24:58.109 --> 00:25:00.630
this. I don't like this. It's not me. I don't

00:25:00.630 --> 00:25:04.710
want it. We're going in a different direction

00:25:04.710 --> 00:25:07.009
with that now. We're going towards everything

00:25:07.009 --> 00:25:13.650
cannabis, marijuana, THC, vape. I don't know

00:25:13.650 --> 00:25:15.880
that that's any better for you. Or any worse.

00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.680
I mean, people tell me, yeah, I know. Hey, I

00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:20.839
smoked weed way back. I understand. It's a different

00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:24.819
kind of weed. The stuff I had back in the 70s,

00:25:24.819 --> 00:25:29.200
80s, whatever, back then, that was maybe 3 %

00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:33.140
THC. They're talking 28%, 30%, hallucinogenic

00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:37.680
level THC. 65 % is something I've recently heard,

00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:39.799
which just blows my mind. I can't even imagine.

00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.339
And vaping it is a whole different process. I

00:25:44.339 --> 00:25:46.299
mean, you talk about it's like a miniature bong,

00:25:46.420 --> 00:25:48.599
you know, but you're not having to use a water

00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.019
bong or fill a bong up or doing any of this stuff.

00:25:51.339 --> 00:25:54.500
It's going straight in. And it's the same thing

00:25:54.500 --> 00:25:56.400
on any other stuff that you're taking into your

00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.019
lungs. I don't care. And then they're flavoring

00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:01.039
things now. Well, the whole process of flavoring

00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:05.559
things is to make it more appealing to your taste

00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:08.299
buds. Hey, I love chocolate. I love grape. You

00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:10.660
know, those flavors are. flavors that appeal

00:26:10.660 --> 00:26:13.740
to me and a lot of other people make those things

00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:16.039
flavored like bubble gum or grape or chocolate.

00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:18.859
You're going to find people that are just like,

00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:22.559
they love that. Um, I don't know if it's healthy.

00:26:22.660 --> 00:26:24.619
I guess everybody gets to do what they want to

00:26:24.619 --> 00:26:26.259
do and see what's going to happen to them with

00:26:26.259 --> 00:26:32.859
it. Um, as to the tobacco level of things, you're

00:26:32.859 --> 00:26:35.700
talking such a massive industry back in the day

00:26:35.700 --> 00:26:40.039
and now big tobacco. well, many years ago, bought

00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:47.259
into big food. And then they bought into big

00:26:47.259 --> 00:26:51.299
cannabis, I guess, is the way to look at it.

00:26:51.339 --> 00:26:54.680
But they also bought into big alcohol. And so

00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:56.440
many of these things can be addictive. We already

00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:59.039
know alcohol can be an addictive thing for some

00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:02.960
people. And it causes problems, always has. But

00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:05.680
we're never, ever, ever going to ban it. That's

00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:11.079
just not happening. Tobacco, you know, definitely,

00:27:11.299 --> 00:27:15.619
without a doubt, nicotine has its issues. And

00:27:15.619 --> 00:27:19.160
we now know what the tobacco industry did. Not

00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:21.940
the tobacco of the forefathers, not the tobacco

00:27:21.940 --> 00:27:26.480
of the Native Americans, not the tobacco of previous,

00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.880
but the tobacco now. And the tobacco that came

00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:35.319
through the 70s, 80s, 90s, 60s, whatever. There

00:27:35.319 --> 00:27:38.619
were things that were done in the processing

00:27:38.619 --> 00:27:41.299
to make sure that people kept coming back to

00:27:41.299 --> 00:27:45.519
the menthol and to other brands. I remember Virginia

00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:48.799
Slims being advertised. They were advertised

00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.359
to girls like me that was a teenager because

00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:55.779
we needed to smoke a girls' brand, a women's

00:27:55.779 --> 00:27:59.640
cigarette. So smoke the Virginia Slims because

00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:03.359
all the ads would show. You know, very attractive,

00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.559
young, 20 -something -year -old models smoking

00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:10.640
these slimmer cigarettes. They're messing with

00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.019
my head as a teenager to tell me I need to be

00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:16.079
slim and attractive and smoke this cigarette.

00:28:17.500 --> 00:28:21.900
You know, what happens, though, when that becomes

00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:25.759
the thing that kills me? You know, I mean, because

00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:29.809
it does. They don't want to blame them. Shame

00:28:29.809 --> 00:28:31.549
on you for wanting to be slim and attractive.

00:28:32.609 --> 00:28:36.829
You know, just one bad effect from these things.

00:28:39.109 --> 00:28:41.269
A lot of different things we could be having

00:28:41.269 --> 00:28:42.950
out there. And you're talking about the healthy

00:28:42.950 --> 00:28:47.509
stuff. I love seeing the return to, I call it

00:28:47.509 --> 00:28:51.670
the smaller farm. But the return to being able

00:28:51.670 --> 00:28:56.650
to buy a half, I don't need a half a beef. or

00:28:56.650 --> 00:28:59.269
half a side of beef nowadays, but even a quarter

00:28:59.269 --> 00:29:02.849
size, or being able to order my hamburgers or

00:29:02.849 --> 00:29:06.950
my steak or my roast and getting that from a

00:29:06.950 --> 00:29:11.589
farm where I know that farmer. I know that rancher.

00:29:11.650 --> 00:29:14.690
I know that person. I know the grass they're

00:29:14.690 --> 00:29:17.369
running them on. I know the grains they're feeding.

00:29:18.329 --> 00:29:22.009
I know that they're not using a ton of antibiotics.

00:29:22.049 --> 00:29:27.009
I know that, and I love that. I am very much

00:29:27.009 --> 00:29:30.609
pro that. Always have been. I've done that a

00:29:30.609 --> 00:29:33.890
long time. I guess I grew up that way. And then

00:29:33.890 --> 00:29:35.789
when it suddenly became something I could do

00:29:35.789 --> 00:29:42.569
again, I did. My sister was in nursing for really

00:29:42.569 --> 00:29:46.190
close to 40 years, if you think about it. I'm

00:29:46.190 --> 00:29:50.990
aging you, yes, Katrina. During COVID, We were

00:29:50.990 --> 00:29:53.009
looking after my mom, and my sister had ordered

00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:54.869
a whole bunch of lavender plants, and it started

00:29:54.869 --> 00:29:56.869
growing lavender and getting these little plants

00:29:56.869 --> 00:29:59.509
shipped to her from all over on their farm. She

00:29:59.509 --> 00:30:01.809
wanted to put her on her husband's farm. Now

00:30:01.809 --> 00:30:04.730
she's 2 ,000 -plus plants out there, and she

00:30:04.730 --> 00:30:07.869
owns Lunenberg Lavender right there back where

00:30:07.869 --> 00:30:13.089
I grew up. And so she started making lavender

00:30:13.089 --> 00:30:15.470
products and trying to test to see what she could

00:30:15.470 --> 00:30:19.410
make to where things were more natural. edible

00:30:19.410 --> 00:30:23.730
and things that people could use, things that

00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:25.809
they wanted. And she made different kinds of

00:30:25.809 --> 00:30:27.710
lavender products. And she's been doing that.

00:30:28.430 --> 00:30:32.269
And her business has taken off on Shopify and

00:30:32.269 --> 00:30:36.069
Facebook and stuff. Now she's retired from nursing.

00:30:36.150 --> 00:30:37.970
She's able to do it more. She's able to make

00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:40.410
even more products. And she's doing that same

00:30:40.410 --> 00:30:44.549
thing, looking to what people want. You want

00:30:44.549 --> 00:30:47.339
a deodorant? She makes that now, but it doesn't

00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:50.119
have all of the chemical stuff and all that's

00:30:50.119 --> 00:30:54.180
in the major manufacturing stuff. It's more wholesome,

00:30:54.220 --> 00:31:01.240
more natural. I get a nasal spray from her because

00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:04.640
occasionally my sinuses get clogged up, and it

00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:08.079
works great for me. But I think people are looking

00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:10.980
for that. Facial moisturizers, dog shampoos,

00:31:11.019 --> 00:31:12.960
you name it. She's just coming up with all kinds

00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:15.740
of creative things to do with lavender. But I'm

00:31:15.740 --> 00:31:17.599
seeing a lot of other farmers do things like

00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:20.819
that, too. You talked about the cattle up in

00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:23.880
Shenandoah Valley. You know, there's always tons

00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.420
of stuff up that way. And of course, the Mennonites

00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:30.559
and the Amish have expanded quite a bit through

00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:33.299
Virginia, through the farm country. And they're

00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:34.960
doing a lot of the same thing. They're making

00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.359
things and doing stuff, stuff that they've always

00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:39.599
done, that their traditions and that their lifestyle

00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:45.190
has always done, has now become. sought after.

00:31:45.369 --> 00:31:48.009
A lot of city folks want to come out and buy

00:31:48.009 --> 00:31:51.789
from the Mennonites and the Amish. They want

00:31:51.789 --> 00:31:53.529
to go to their stores. They want to talk to them

00:31:53.529 --> 00:31:57.490
on their farms. They want to get the fresh product.

00:31:59.410 --> 00:32:01.009
They're seeing it for themselves and they're

00:32:01.009 --> 00:32:03.710
going, yeah. Also in construction. I mean, have

00:32:03.710 --> 00:32:06.450
you ever actually seen some of the stuff that

00:32:06.450 --> 00:32:09.130
the Amish build? Yeah. And then also, I think

00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:10.890
one of the things that really blows me away,

00:32:11.029 --> 00:32:14.269
if you watch the barn moving that they do and

00:32:14.269 --> 00:32:15.789
how the community comes together, I think it

00:32:15.789 --> 00:32:19.170
was even after the North Carolina storms. I think

00:32:19.170 --> 00:32:21.250
they were one of the first groups that were going

00:32:21.250 --> 00:32:24.009
in and helping people rebuild. Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:32:24.250 --> 00:32:26.470
It was a group out of Virginia, not too far from

00:32:26.470 --> 00:32:28.549
where I grew up, down in the south side. And

00:32:28.549 --> 00:32:32.869
the Amish and all, yeah, unbelievable. They made

00:32:32.869 --> 00:32:35.089
tiny houses. They did all kinds of things. The

00:32:35.089 --> 00:32:37.970
hammers never stopped. They never stopped. Um,

00:32:38.130 --> 00:32:40.809
it's amazing what they're able to do. And, uh,

00:32:40.950 --> 00:32:42.970
you know, they're not going to put your electrical

00:32:42.970 --> 00:32:45.490
in for you, but other than that, they will, they

00:32:45.490 --> 00:32:47.269
will definitely do the rest of it for you and

00:32:47.269 --> 00:32:50.930
they'll do it quickly. And they do it, um, in

00:32:50.930 --> 00:32:52.910
an affordable way when, when it's something you're

00:32:52.910 --> 00:32:55.130
buying, when you start looking out at, at who's,

00:32:55.130 --> 00:32:58.109
who is doing and all my, uh, my nephew just had

00:32:58.109 --> 00:33:02.309
a, um, a barn built, uh, with some of the Amish

00:33:02.309 --> 00:33:06.839
workers. And, uh, He was amazed at their workmanship,

00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:10.900
at their quality. And they always showed up.

00:33:10.980 --> 00:33:12.180
I mean, they said what time they were going to

00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:14.579
be there. They were there. I mean, you know,

00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:18.599
they showed up. You know, and they don't step

00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:20.740
outside their own traditions. They're doing their

00:33:20.740 --> 00:33:25.259
thing. And, you know, they'll answer your questions.

00:33:25.299 --> 00:33:28.460
You can talk to them and everything. But I think

00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:30.140
it's good that we've got a lot of people that

00:33:30.140 --> 00:33:32.079
are still like that, that are still resilient,

00:33:32.180 --> 00:33:35.019
that are still. uh knowledgeable on how these

00:33:35.019 --> 00:33:37.380
things are done and that you can learn from them

00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:45.119
and we can keep doing it i think that we i think

00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:47.240
other countries i think the world we could all

00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:50.339
go back to doing fresh foods last year no i'm

00:33:50.339 --> 00:33:52.940
sorry it's coming up on two years now i was in

00:33:52.940 --> 00:33:55.359
uzbekistan for 30 days i don't know if you know

00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:58.039
where uzbekistan is but if you're looking for

00:33:58.039 --> 00:33:59.640
any of the countries that the last words are

00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:01.980
staying all the whatever it's right in the middle

00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:03.799
i just tell people just Right there, right in

00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:07.039
the middle, Uzbekistan. Loved the people, loved

00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.260
the country. Lived in Tashkent for most of it

00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:13.059
while I was there. It's a city of three million.

00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:16.460
It's the cleanest city I've ever been in for

00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:20.539
three million people. Gorgeous. And they take

00:34:20.539 --> 00:34:22.880
so much pride in their grass, their flowers,

00:34:22.980 --> 00:34:25.980
their trees, and in keeping things clean and

00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:30.820
nice. They have a lot of police, but the police

00:34:30.820 --> 00:34:33.219
are there to make sure that everybody is safe

00:34:33.219 --> 00:34:36.500
and okay and knows where they're getting to and

00:34:36.500 --> 00:34:38.840
going and that their traffic accidents don't

00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:42.820
block the road so that people can keep, they

00:34:42.820 --> 00:34:45.780
don't let anything slow anything down. They're

00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:47.940
welcoming to business all over the world right

00:34:47.940 --> 00:34:51.860
now. So we were there. The South Koreans were

00:34:51.860 --> 00:34:54.440
coming in to visit. India had come in to visit.

00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:55.820
There were several people that were coming back

00:34:55.820 --> 00:35:00.440
and forth doing trade deals with them. Just a

00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:06.280
pleasant, humble people and a proud people. You

00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:08.139
learn a lot about their history and all while

00:35:08.139 --> 00:35:12.860
we were there. We went to Samar Khan. Quick weekend

00:35:12.860 --> 00:35:14.739
visit because we wanted to see the stuff that

00:35:14.739 --> 00:35:18.400
was from the Genghis Khan and before era. Because

00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:21.639
Genghis Khan came there and he kind of conquered

00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:23.579
them, but he actually let their leaders sort

00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:26.519
of stay in charge because he liked them. He admired

00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:29.699
their fighting abilities. And so he left them.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.579
But you also see the influx of how things change

00:35:32.579 --> 00:35:35.739
their country from being on the Silk Road. And

00:35:35.739 --> 00:35:38.679
so the influx of China. through the Silk Road

00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:41.420
with them and the trading and all of that that

00:35:41.420 --> 00:35:43.539
has continued to carry on with their foods and

00:35:43.539 --> 00:35:45.619
their traditions and their clothing. But then

00:35:45.619 --> 00:35:49.480
you also saw the influx of the Middle East on

00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:54.960
their religion and Islam. And then to add to

00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:56.780
that, which made it kind of unusual, because

00:35:56.780 --> 00:36:01.190
I have been to a lot of the Middle East. Their

00:36:01.190 --> 00:36:03.449
influx from Russia, now they have had their freedom

00:36:03.449 --> 00:36:06.769
from Russia since, I want to say, 91, 92, when

00:36:06.769 --> 00:36:11.190
the Great Wall, when the wall came down in Germany

00:36:11.190 --> 00:36:16.889
and the USSR disappeared. They gained their freedom

00:36:16.889 --> 00:36:21.429
from the Soviet, but they still have a lot of

00:36:21.429 --> 00:36:23.650
Russian influence. So I ate a lot of really good

00:36:23.650 --> 00:36:25.889
Russian food while I was there. I'd never had

00:36:25.889 --> 00:36:29.280
borscht before. It was great. There's a way that

00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:33.059
the chicken is made by the Russian recipe that

00:36:33.059 --> 00:36:36.880
I found fabulous. I've been looking for it here.

00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:43.380
I haven't found it yet. Alcohol. So they have

00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:46.960
a beer and they have some vodkas and things that

00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:49.059
they make there. And you don't really think about

00:36:49.059 --> 00:36:53.400
that so much in an Islamic country. And yet they

00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:55.400
have that and they're perfectly fine with that.

00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:58.179
So that was different. And then they're teaching

00:36:58.179 --> 00:37:00.380
English at like every little school in the city

00:37:00.380 --> 00:37:02.280
of Tuscan. Everybody's trying to learn English.

00:37:02.340 --> 00:37:04.860
They want to be able to deal with the rest of

00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:08.119
the world. But all of their fruits and their

00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:11.420
vegetables, every food we had made at the hotel

00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:14.000
or at the academy where we were teaching at,

00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:16.960
by their cooks, everything, their chefs, whatever,

00:37:17.099 --> 00:37:22.539
absolutely the freshest and best anywhere. Just

00:37:22.539 --> 00:37:25.380
incredible. And I wish we were back to that level

00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:27.460
because the breads don't make you bloated and

00:37:27.460 --> 00:37:30.139
heavy and everything you could eat over there.

00:37:30.219 --> 00:37:33.480
And you felt great. I lost weight. And yet I

00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:36.940
was eating all the time. You hear that a lot

00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:40.139
when people travel. And I think this is what's

00:37:40.139 --> 00:37:43.130
so maddening is. And all the, like we were just

00:37:43.130 --> 00:37:44.610
talking before I hit record, I've been doing

00:37:44.610 --> 00:37:47.710
this podcast for nine years now, 1200 people

00:37:47.710 --> 00:37:49.789
have come on here. So all these stories, whether

00:37:49.789 --> 00:37:51.809
they're military and again, people seeing different

00:37:51.809 --> 00:37:55.269
cultures overseas, whether they're actual nutritionists,

00:37:55.349 --> 00:37:58.650
you know, farmers, whatever it is. And the common

00:37:58.650 --> 00:38:01.730
denominator is basically if we roll back time

00:38:01.730 --> 00:38:05.110
a hundred years, as far as how we eat, how we

00:38:05.110 --> 00:38:08.230
move, how we forge community, we would solve.

00:38:08.909 --> 00:38:12.409
80 90 of the problems right there now you know

00:38:12.409 --> 00:38:14.849
generational trauma yeah 100 years ago it was

00:38:14.849 --> 00:38:16.730
still pretty pretty prevalent with world war

00:38:16.730 --> 00:38:18.969
one and you know the great depression and those

00:38:18.969 --> 00:38:21.710
kind of things but you know the the quality of

00:38:21.710 --> 00:38:23.690
the food the quality of the movement the quality

00:38:23.690 --> 00:38:25.670
of the conversation the quality of the sleep

00:38:25.670 --> 00:38:28.750
you know all those were the real pillars of health

00:38:28.750 --> 00:38:33.159
were there So there's so much value in just looking

00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:35.739
back, not having the arrogance of, you know,

00:38:35.739 --> 00:38:38.599
the modern age where, yes, some of our technology

00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:40.980
is absolutely phenomenal and we can weave that

00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:44.239
in. But we've totally become disconnected on

00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:46.719
all the things that got us here through millennia

00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:50.039
as human beings and circling around and using

00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.300
examples of, you know, like I talk about here

00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:53.760
on the time, you know, Finland with education.

00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:57.519
Norway with prisons, Portugal with decriminalization,

00:38:57.860 --> 00:39:00.420
the British healthcare system when it's fully

00:39:00.420 --> 00:39:03.579
funded and supported. These are all amazing models

00:39:03.579 --> 00:39:05.460
that the rest of the world could go, well, they're

00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:08.500
doing that really well. And Japan. They make

00:39:08.500 --> 00:39:11.739
food from scratch in their schools and the kids

00:39:11.739 --> 00:39:14.440
clean the schools. What an amazing concept. Let's

00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:18.000
bring that in. 1960s California, the PE program,

00:39:18.219 --> 00:39:21.820
that was phenomenal. So now you take everyone's

00:39:21.820 --> 00:39:24.019
great ideas and you share knowledge and you're

00:39:24.019 --> 00:39:25.960
humble enough to say, all right, you are doing

00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:28.119
it better than us. And we do have an obesity

00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:30.780
crisis. So let's start bringing in some of these.

00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.920
We do that and we knowledge share globally. Imagine,

00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:37.219
as I use this phrase all the time now, the rising

00:39:37.219 --> 00:39:40.840
tide lifts all ships. Everyone around the planet

00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:43.639
would benefit. And some of the technology that's

00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:47.380
degrading our planet, like deforestation, because

00:39:47.380 --> 00:39:50.980
one country is providing most of the beef or

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:53.880
one country has got all these servers that are

00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:57.039
depleting the resources and the water and they're

00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.889
overheating. Now if we're all back to more of

00:39:59.889 --> 00:40:03.230
a microcosm, lots of communities around the world,

00:40:03.309 --> 00:40:05.949
and we're eating well and we're moving well,

00:40:06.090 --> 00:40:10.429
imagine the impact and the funds that are freed

00:40:10.429 --> 00:40:15.110
up from not having to fight a horrendous opioid

00:40:15.110 --> 00:40:18.090
crisis and not having to fill our hospitals and

00:40:18.090 --> 00:40:21.269
our first responders on all the obesity -related

00:40:21.269 --> 00:40:25.179
diseases and deaths. So, I mean, to me, if we

00:40:25.179 --> 00:40:27.800
wrote a book saying how to fix most of the things,

00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:30.019
you open it up and it would just say, do what

00:40:30.019 --> 00:40:32.920
we did a hundred years ago. That's it. Well,

00:40:33.059 --> 00:40:35.920
I think if we could all, and I know we don't

00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:37.760
agree on things, that doesn't work that way.

00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:40.139
I mean, but we already talked about it at the

00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:43.599
front there. There are the things that we do

00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:45.860
good, whether we do it in our country, other

00:40:45.860 --> 00:40:47.699
countries, but that we do good. And I wish we

00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:49.219
could just sit down and go, okay, these are the

00:40:49.219 --> 00:40:51.599
things that really work and are good. And these

00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:54.920
are the things that, have been failures. All

00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:57.699
right, we can't fix these. We've tried, and this

00:40:57.699 --> 00:41:00.159
is just, nah, let it go. Go back over here to

00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.579
the ones that work really good and say, that's

00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:05.000
what we want to do. We're going to work with

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:12.099
those and continue those processes. I'm just

00:41:12.099 --> 00:41:16.079
going to say, RFK, I like him. I get it. There's

00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.159
people that just don't like him for whatever

00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:21.159
reason. The funny thing is, they did like him.

00:41:22.510 --> 00:41:27.530
They just don't right now. He is right. Physical

00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:31.369
fitness. It's so important. We've got to be moving.

00:41:31.570 --> 00:41:33.489
A hundred years ago, you had to move. You had

00:41:33.489 --> 00:41:35.329
to walk. You had to do a lot of things. You had

00:41:35.329 --> 00:41:37.269
to do a lot of physical labor. They didn't have

00:41:37.269 --> 00:41:40.210
all the fancy farm tractors that you could just

00:41:40.210 --> 00:41:42.150
plug it in and the thing could do pretty much

00:41:42.150 --> 00:41:44.289
on its own. And you had air conditioning and

00:41:44.289 --> 00:41:46.969
all of that stuff inside. And you could eat your

00:41:46.969 --> 00:41:49.610
lunch and talk on the phone and play a video

00:41:49.610 --> 00:41:52.369
game. None of that. They didn't have any of that.

00:41:53.769 --> 00:41:56.369
You were physically active, physically laboring.

00:41:56.590 --> 00:41:59.769
My parents grew up that way. My sister and I

00:41:59.769 --> 00:42:02.530
grew up that way until we got off the farm, went

00:42:02.530 --> 00:42:06.389
to school, and got educations and found careers.

00:42:07.869 --> 00:42:10.769
But that physical labor thing was like a part

00:42:10.769 --> 00:42:12.989
of every day from the time your feet hit the

00:42:12.989 --> 00:42:14.989
floor until the time your head hit the pillow

00:42:14.989 --> 00:42:17.849
at night. You were in a physical labor type of

00:42:17.849 --> 00:42:20.889
movement. In addition to if you happen to go

00:42:20.889 --> 00:42:26.110
jogging or bicycling or horseback riding or whatever

00:42:26.110 --> 00:42:28.210
it might be, or down to the gym lifting weights,

00:42:28.349 --> 00:42:30.829
whatever it might have been. And those things

00:42:30.829 --> 00:42:32.889
are good for you. So, yeah, physical fitness

00:42:32.889 --> 00:42:36.869
is big. Getting the chemical junk out of our

00:42:36.869 --> 00:42:44.469
food and out of the crop care. I'm not saying

00:42:44.469 --> 00:42:47.179
that there aren't certain things we need. We

00:42:47.179 --> 00:42:50.079
need those things fixed. I'm sorry. Big Pharma

00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.960
got way out of control. I saw the worst of it

00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:55.800
in my law enforcement career because of Purdue

00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:59.820
Pharma with the OxyContin. Absolutely. When I

00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:03.219
first saw OxyContin and heard about OxyContin,

00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:06.059
nobody in this country knew what that was because

00:43:06.059 --> 00:43:08.880
they introduced it in the southern Appalachia

00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:11.760
of the United States first. We were the first.

00:43:11.980 --> 00:43:17.570
We were on the cutting edge of hell. Purdue Pharma

00:43:17.570 --> 00:43:21.909
sent their pharmaceutical reps down to see the

00:43:21.909 --> 00:43:25.710
doctors in the coal mining regions and the timber

00:43:25.710 --> 00:43:28.690
regions where people are working hard labor jobs.

00:43:30.170 --> 00:43:32.690
And they told these doctors, and I know this,

00:43:32.690 --> 00:43:36.210
this is a fact. I've read Dope Sick. I've watched

00:43:36.210 --> 00:43:38.949
the Hulu. I love the Hulu series. I know those

00:43:38.949 --> 00:43:42.070
guys. Randy Ramseyer and Rick Montcal, so I worked

00:43:42.070 --> 00:43:44.030
with them for years. They were the prosecutors

00:43:44.030 --> 00:43:48.300
in the office that I worked. with them to prosecute

00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:52.219
our criminal cases. I know the Sheriff Gary Parsons

00:43:52.219 --> 00:43:54.260
in Lee County. I've known him since the late

00:43:54.260 --> 00:44:01.260
90s. We were out working in Lee County and we

00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:04.780
get a call and Gary Parsons wants us to come

00:44:04.780 --> 00:44:07.400
and help out. They got a problem with something

00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:11.199
called an OC. Never heard of it. What is it?

00:44:11.739 --> 00:44:13.340
We couldn't even call anybody to ask them what

00:44:13.340 --> 00:44:16.420
the hell it was. And what we found out was an

00:44:16.420 --> 00:44:20.440
OC was this prescription medication. And it came

00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:24.579
in like a 10 milligram. And people were using

00:44:24.579 --> 00:44:26.559
them. They were crushing them up and snorting

00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:29.099
them. And they were chewing them up and doing.

00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:31.880
And we're like, well, it's pharmaceutical. They

00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:33.260
go, no, no, no, no, no. They're selling them.

00:44:33.340 --> 00:44:35.679
And people are starting to do, we're seeing them.

00:44:35.980 --> 00:44:38.880
Big increase in break -ins and burglaries, and

00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:41.280
guns are getting stolen, and we want ATF, we

00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:44.059
want you guys to come over and help us out. And

00:44:44.059 --> 00:44:47.840
there was a business over there, Mr. Williams

00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.380
and all, they had this really nice log cabin

00:44:50.380 --> 00:44:53.800
company business. They made beautiful logs and

00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:56.860
the log cabin homes and stuff. Well, in the middle

00:44:56.860 --> 00:44:59.320
of the night one weekend, the log cabin business,

00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:01.659
which employed quite a few people and was very

00:45:01.659 --> 00:45:03.980
prominent there, right on the main drag there,

00:45:05.500 --> 00:45:08.340
In Lee County, it started burning to the ground.

00:45:09.659 --> 00:45:13.380
And all the volunteer fire departments and the

00:45:13.380 --> 00:45:16.179
volunteer emergency squad and the sheriff's deputies,

00:45:16.300 --> 00:45:18.539
state trooper that was working that night, everybody

00:45:18.539 --> 00:45:21.139
was out there dealing with that because this

00:45:21.139 --> 00:45:23.260
business was burning to the ground and it was

00:45:23.260 --> 00:45:25.300
just the worst thing ever. Well, of course, the

00:45:25.300 --> 00:45:27.039
owners are coming out, the neighbors are coming

00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.219
out, everybody's out there. And while the owner's

00:45:30.219 --> 00:45:31.579
out there and they're dealing with all of this

00:45:31.579 --> 00:45:35.280
stuff, his home was broken into. And the firearms

00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.800
in his home were stolen. And whoever was in his

00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:40.420
house had plenty of time, and they knew they

00:45:40.420 --> 00:45:43.760
had time because they knew he wasn't home. And

00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:47.480
he had rushed out, and apparently whatever alarms

00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:51.219
he had, not all of them were set. And so by the

00:45:51.219 --> 00:45:52.880
time anybody realized that his home had been

00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.579
broken into, it was all gone. We found that the

00:45:55.579 --> 00:45:58.000
people who did that had set his business on fire

00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:02.860
intentionally, you know, then took the— things

00:46:02.860 --> 00:46:05.199
that they stole from his home and traveled just

00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:08.159
a few short miles over into the Kentucky area

00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:12.219
and got rid of stuff, everything. And the whole

00:46:12.219 --> 00:46:15.260
purpose was OxyContin. And we're like, how do

00:46:15.260 --> 00:46:17.719
you even spell that? Because that's not how,

00:46:17.739 --> 00:46:20.099
how it's spelled is not how I spelled it to begin

00:46:20.099 --> 00:46:24.500
with. But OxyContin was this OC. And it was like,

00:46:24.619 --> 00:46:27.500
how bad is this? There's some people, they're

00:46:27.500 --> 00:46:29.480
going down to Mexico because you can get a better

00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:31.179
strength and you can get this and you can get

00:46:31.179 --> 00:46:33.519
that. Yeah, and there's these doctors that are

00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:35.219
selling it around here that you can just go to

00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:36.619
their office and you just tell them that you

00:46:36.619 --> 00:46:39.199
don't feel good. And shoulder's been kind of

00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:42.179
hurting me lately. What did you do to it? It

00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:44.440
just hurts me. Okay, we're going to prescribe

00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.860
you this new medicine. And we're going to go

00:46:46.860 --> 00:46:48.780
ahead and give you a 90 -day supply on these

00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:51.239
things. And we got a 20 milligram now. We got

00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:53.420
a 40 milligram now. We got a 60 milligram now.

00:46:53.500 --> 00:46:55.119
We got an 80 milligram now. It just kept going

00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:57.539
up, up, up. And, oh, we're going to make it so

00:46:57.539 --> 00:47:01.809
that you can't do anything to it. They told some

00:47:01.809 --> 00:47:05.750
of the doctors early on and the dentist, this

00:47:05.750 --> 00:47:08.869
is going to replace aspirin. This is the next

00:47:08.869 --> 00:47:12.489
aspirin. It's great for pain. So when a kid gets

00:47:12.489 --> 00:47:14.489
their wisdom teeth cut out, go ahead and give

00:47:14.489 --> 00:47:17.429
them a 90 -day supply, a 16 -year -old, a 17

00:47:17.429 --> 00:47:20.730
-year -old, an 18 -year -old. They did that.

00:47:20.909 --> 00:47:23.230
Oh, so -and -so, he sprained his ankle playing

00:47:23.230 --> 00:47:25.449
football last week, and he's not going to be

00:47:25.449 --> 00:47:26.989
able to do practice. If he doesn't make practice

00:47:26.989 --> 00:47:28.469
this week, he's not going to be able to play

00:47:28.469 --> 00:47:31.420
football on Saturday. You know what? He needs

00:47:31.420 --> 00:47:34.019
a 90 -day script. Everybody needs a 90 -day script.

00:47:34.260 --> 00:47:36.960
We heard 90 -day scripts so many times, it just

00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:40.980
blows your mind. Then I talked to a little 15

00:47:40.980 --> 00:47:43.239
-year -old. God, I heard a lot of these stories,

00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:46.099
but this little 15 -year -old girl, this is like

00:47:46.099 --> 00:47:49.679
the one that kind of made my mouth just drop.

00:47:49.940 --> 00:47:55.400
Everything just hits you. She was strung out,

00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:57.420
really strung out. She was really, really addicted.

00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.900
She'd been passed around by a lot of people by

00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:02.619
this point in life when we're talking to her.

00:48:02.659 --> 00:48:04.539
We're like, how did you get on these? How long

00:48:04.539 --> 00:48:07.440
have you been on them? About eight months. Okay.

00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:10.139
When did you start this? Well, I went to a party

00:48:10.139 --> 00:48:13.239
with my friends and it was a Friday night. Okay,

00:48:13.619 --> 00:48:15.420
great. And it was right after the high school

00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:19.159
football game. Okay. Everything. And they said,

00:48:19.219 --> 00:48:21.400
if I just tried it, if I just did a little bit

00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:23.840
of it. So I just did one little line, you know,

00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:28.030
whatever. And great. All right. Then on Saturday

00:48:28.030 --> 00:48:29.869
afternoon, we were hanging out, and so -and -so

00:48:29.869 --> 00:48:32.170
had a pill, and they crushed it up on a plate,

00:48:32.269 --> 00:48:36.710
and then I did another line, all right, and stuff.

00:48:37.050 --> 00:48:39.329
And I was thinking on Sunday if I could get a

00:48:39.329 --> 00:48:41.090
hold of one of those pills. I was just wanting

00:48:41.090 --> 00:48:42.909
one because it's just the way it made me feel.

00:48:43.130 --> 00:48:48.210
Wow, okay. So on Monday, I saw so -and -so at

00:48:48.210 --> 00:48:50.869
high school, and I told him what I was wanting,

00:48:50.929 --> 00:48:53.849
and I got one, and I took home just a quarter

00:48:53.849 --> 00:48:57.619
of a pill, a quarter of one pill. I took it home

00:48:57.619 --> 00:49:00.639
with me Monday night and I used it. And by the

00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:03.880
next weekend, I had been getting like a quarter

00:49:03.880 --> 00:49:07.159
of a pill every day. And so then I wanted more.

00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:11.219
And we're like, wow. But you heard these stories

00:49:11.219 --> 00:49:14.219
over and over and over. And very quickly after

00:49:14.219 --> 00:49:16.360
that, she was trading sexual favors because she

00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:17.780
didn't have any money. She didn't have a job

00:49:17.780 --> 00:49:20.340
to pay for this. And she wasn't going to get

00:49:20.340 --> 00:49:22.699
this stuff for free. And then they found out

00:49:22.699 --> 00:49:26.110
that there were some older people. seniors, retired

00:49:26.110 --> 00:49:29.250
folks, who were getting prescriptions for this.

00:49:29.429 --> 00:49:31.590
And sometimes their homes got broken into and

00:49:31.590 --> 00:49:33.929
the pills were stolen. And sometimes some of

00:49:33.929 --> 00:49:36.730
the older gentlemen could find that some of these

00:49:36.730 --> 00:49:39.329
younger girls would be willing to trade sexual

00:49:39.329 --> 00:49:42.349
favors for pills. So you just rattle that model

00:49:42.349 --> 00:49:45.449
of pills. Here's three pills. Here's five pills.

00:49:45.550 --> 00:49:48.670
Here's 10 pills. We'll trade that. Eventually,

00:49:48.849 --> 00:49:51.050
we started dealing with people who were moving

00:49:51.050 --> 00:49:55.400
like 10 ,000 pills a month easily. They were

00:49:55.400 --> 00:49:56.760
trafficking them. They were selling them. They

00:49:56.760 --> 00:49:58.739
were going to pill mills. Pill mills were where

00:49:58.739 --> 00:50:00.239
the doctors were just writing out the scripts.

00:50:00.420 --> 00:50:01.960
They were going all over the place, going to

00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:04.519
pharmacies. They would hit six doctors in like

00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:08.519
two days to get the scripts. Had 90 pills per

00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:12.059
script. They were using people's Medicare card,

00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:15.099
Medicaid, Medicare stuff to get a script for

00:50:15.099 --> 00:50:18.059
a dollar. Using people's insurance cards. The

00:50:18.059 --> 00:50:20.760
fraud, the identity fraud, all of that, that

00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:24.199
was going into it. The traffic on the pills just

00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:26.760
became just overwhelming. We couldn't catch up.

00:50:26.860 --> 00:50:30.519
We started it in 1999. The pills had gotten introduced

00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:33.840
as a 10 milligram in 1996, about the end of 96.

00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:39.059
We got involved early 99 with our first cases

00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:44.000
in our office. By 2000, we were seeing overdose

00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:46.860
deaths because the milligrams were going up.

00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:50.320
People were taking them and they were using Xanax.

00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:55.699
That was a respiratory shutdown effect. That

00:50:55.699 --> 00:50:57.739
was what was happening. They didn't realize that.

00:50:59.400 --> 00:51:02.159
People started injecting them. That was the bigger

00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:04.179
thing we were seeing. They were finding ways

00:51:04.179 --> 00:51:07.699
to remove the coating off of them. But Purdue

00:51:07.699 --> 00:51:11.619
didn't care. In 2002, 48 hours, a TV show came

00:51:11.619 --> 00:51:13.880
down and talked to us out in Lake County at the

00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:16.840
high school. I attended the meetings. I attended

00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:18.880
meetings in Abingdon, Virginia at the high school.

00:51:20.139 --> 00:51:22.619
The people were so mad and so angry. There were

00:51:22.619 --> 00:51:26.539
lawyers that were trying their best to fight

00:51:26.539 --> 00:51:30.760
back. There was a program called Octagon. It

00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:32.539
was a project by the U .S. Attorney's Office

00:51:32.539 --> 00:51:34.719
in the Western District of Virginia, mostly in

00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:37.980
Abingdon, Virginia. That's where Randy Ramseyer

00:51:37.980 --> 00:51:42.619
and Rick Moncastle worked at from, like I said,

00:51:42.659 --> 00:51:46.699
the movie or the series Hulu had, Dope Sick.

00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:50.199
But it's based on... Beth Macy's book, Dope Sick.

00:51:51.699 --> 00:51:55.960
Octagon was targeting the bad doctors. Originally,

00:51:55.980 --> 00:51:57.880
it was called Octagon because they were looking

00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:04.059
at eight, just eight. I don't know how many doctors,

00:52:04.219 --> 00:52:06.139
how many pharmacists, how many nurses we took

00:52:06.139 --> 00:52:10.000
off, but between them and DEA and the Virginia

00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.760
State Police and the rural county sheriff's departments

00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:15.659
and the local city of Bristol, Virginia and Abingdon,

00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:19.099
Virginia, Marion, Virginia. The problem was just

00:52:19.099 --> 00:52:23.519
overwhelming. And then as we kept going, by 2006,

00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:26.619
I was working on a project, and it was myself

00:52:26.619 --> 00:52:30.920
and DEA agent named Brian. And we'd just gotten

00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:32.480
into it. We realized we were going to need the

00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:35.440
FBI, so we went and got an agent named Tom. Now,

00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:37.320
there was only a handful of federal agents out

00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:40.739
there. We were all in the same building. So you

00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:44.099
know everybody by first name, of course. We named

00:52:44.099 --> 00:52:46.619
it Operation Leaky Shield. Tom came up with that

00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:48.739
because we had law enforcement officers that

00:52:48.739 --> 00:52:51.440
were stealing drugs from their evidence and from

00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:53.300
people that they were stopping on traffic stops

00:52:53.300 --> 00:52:55.780
and from houses when they were doing search warrants

00:52:55.780 --> 00:52:59.019
and from pharmacies. They broke into places.

00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:02.880
They were stealing guns. They were stealing jewelry.

00:53:03.300 --> 00:53:07.059
They were partying with underage girls. Lots

00:53:07.059 --> 00:53:10.429
of things going on. It was out of control. police

00:53:10.429 --> 00:53:12.750
departments and rural sheriff's departments,

00:53:12.969 --> 00:53:17.449
they had an oxy problem, a real oxy problem,

00:53:17.590 --> 00:53:19.690
because they had addicts on their departments.

00:53:19.769 --> 00:53:22.230
Not a lot, but one or two in a department of,

00:53:22.250 --> 00:53:26.829
say, 15 or 20 is not good by anybody's definition

00:53:26.829 --> 00:53:32.130
anywhere. It was affecting a lot of people, and

00:53:32.130 --> 00:53:34.530
it just got worse. We were arresting teachers,

00:53:34.789 --> 00:53:40.639
lawyers. Of course, the doctors, There were doctors

00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:42.900
who were using, pharmacists that were using,

00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:47.719
pharmacists that overdosed. I know a pharmacist

00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:52.199
that had the business, and his wife passed away

00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:55.699
from an overdose from it. A little town in Big

00:53:55.699 --> 00:53:57.480
Stone Gap, Virginia. I used to go there all the

00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:00.900
time and work with Mark Jones. He was a detective

00:54:00.900 --> 00:54:05.440
over there. He's retired now. Mark survived the

00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:09.659
Beirut bombing of the barracks in 1983. as a

00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:11.940
Marine, came home to be a law enforcement officer,

00:54:12.019 --> 00:54:15.639
and then watched his little small rural southwest

00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:18.199
Virginia Appalachian town of Big Stone Gap be

00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:21.860
devastated by Oxycontin, by Purdue Pharma, by

00:54:21.860 --> 00:54:27.159
the Sackler family. No one has been prosecuted,

00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:30.739
criminally prosecuted, by the Department of Justice

00:54:30.739 --> 00:54:35.429
to this day for what they did. Yeah, lots of

00:54:35.429 --> 00:54:38.570
money after lots of court fights and decades

00:54:38.570 --> 00:54:43.530
of people overdosing and dying, but not any one

00:54:43.530 --> 00:54:46.809
person held responsible, not any two, not any

00:54:46.809 --> 00:54:49.429
three, when it comes to the Department of Justice,

00:54:49.730 --> 00:54:54.070
the Sackler family, Purdue Pharma, Big Pharma.

00:54:54.269 --> 00:54:56.429
And I'm sitting here in my living room the other

00:54:56.429 --> 00:54:58.489
night, and I happen to pay attention to a commercial

00:54:58.489 --> 00:55:02.019
on TV. I normally don't. I normally don't even

00:55:02.019 --> 00:55:03.760
see commercials because I thought I'd gotten

00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:06.099
away from that with Netflix and Prime, but that's

00:55:06.099 --> 00:55:09.739
not true anymore. They were advertising something

00:55:09.739 --> 00:55:14.579
to me. They were advertising to me a drug to

00:55:14.579 --> 00:55:19.019
get over my addiction. If me or a family member

00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:23.059
or someone has an addiction to an opioid, that

00:55:23.059 --> 00:55:25.619
I could get on this new pharmaceutical opioid

00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:28.820
and it would get me off of it. Funny thing is,

00:55:28.860 --> 00:55:30.800
I saw a lot of people that did methadone and

00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:33.119
suboxone, and I never saw anybody get off of

00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:37.380
it. Instead, I watched them at the methadone

00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:40.699
clinics at 5 a .m., and by the end of the day,

00:55:40.780 --> 00:55:43.019
they were hunting down oxys to get them through

00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:45.420
the day, and then they were back at the methadone

00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:49.420
clinic. It was like, this is unreal. I watched

00:55:49.420 --> 00:55:52.159
them with suboxone. They told us when suboxone

00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:55.280
came out, they told us. We were in the meetings

00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:58.190
when they said, this is going to... fix this.

00:55:58.929 --> 00:56:01.449
Suboxone, they'll get off of it. They'll get

00:56:01.449 --> 00:56:04.610
off of the opioids. They'll quit and they'll

00:56:04.610 --> 00:56:06.969
get off of it. That's funny because the teenagers

00:56:06.969 --> 00:56:09.909
I dealt with in places like Lee County and other

00:56:09.909 --> 00:56:12.710
areas of Southwest Virginia, when I met them

00:56:12.710 --> 00:56:15.610
when they were in their 20s, they weren't off

00:56:15.610 --> 00:56:18.929
Suboxone yet. They hadn't gotten squared away

00:56:18.929 --> 00:56:20.969
yet. There were so few people that were getting

00:56:20.969 --> 00:56:25.389
through this and all. And some of them were just

00:56:25.389 --> 00:56:27.809
flat out drug dealing. A lot of them were just

00:56:27.809 --> 00:56:30.670
flat out addicted. And that was never the intention.

00:56:33.389 --> 00:56:38.250
Big Pharma did a huge, awful thing with Purdue

00:56:38.250 --> 00:56:41.070
Pharma, with the Sackler family, with everybody

00:56:41.070 --> 00:56:43.630
that's doing it. And now I'm watching this opioid

00:56:43.630 --> 00:56:45.989
medicine being peddled as what's going to get

00:56:45.989 --> 00:56:49.269
you off of an opioid. And everybody knows, because

00:56:49.269 --> 00:56:53.869
we've been told this for decades, that opioids...

00:56:55.340 --> 00:56:59.320
is the hardest substance to get off and get clean

00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:05.059
from. So now we have a fentanyl problem. And

00:57:05.059 --> 00:57:08.619
now fentanyl is being added to every drug being

00:57:08.619 --> 00:57:10.980
brought into our country or being done here in

00:57:10.980 --> 00:57:15.260
our country. When I say that, cocaine, the crack,

00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:23.909
meth, molly, MDMA, all of those things. there's

00:57:23.909 --> 00:57:26.510
a certain amount of fentanyl or carfentanil being

00:57:26.510 --> 00:57:31.269
added to it to increase the addiction. If you

00:57:31.269 --> 00:57:35.210
don't have a monitored vape, one that has been

00:57:35.210 --> 00:57:38.610
actually checked out and made sure that it was

00:57:38.610 --> 00:57:42.530
made legal, or if you're getting your marijuana

00:57:42.530 --> 00:57:46.610
supply from someplace across the border that's

00:57:46.610 --> 00:57:51.469
coming up to the U .S. or from outside, or even

00:57:51.900 --> 00:57:56.400
as we call it, the California cartel, you don't

00:57:56.400 --> 00:57:58.139
know that you're not getting stuff that hasn't

00:57:58.139 --> 00:58:00.260
been laced with fentanyl or carfentanil because

00:58:00.260 --> 00:58:02.280
they need you to keep on. Bring the business

00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:05.840
back. Keep coming back. You want our vape. You

00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:11.039
want our THC. You want our gummy. No, it hadn't

00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:13.119
been really checked out by the FDA yet. No, it

00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:15.760
hadn't really been approved this yet. So that's

00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:17.679
where those things, those substances scare me.

00:58:19.420 --> 00:58:23.409
You know. It just keeps perpetuating itself.

00:58:24.210 --> 00:58:27.530
The war on drugs, I started in the war on drugs

00:58:27.530 --> 00:58:34.829
as a law enforcement in 1986. I only recently

00:58:34.829 --> 00:58:37.349
saw a start to win it. And unfortunately, we're

00:58:37.349 --> 00:58:40.469
having to blow up people trying to bring this

00:58:40.469 --> 00:58:45.489
stuff, you know, any way they can through boats,

00:58:45.630 --> 00:58:47.750
having to blow them up because they won't stop.

00:58:50.300 --> 00:58:53.119
taking a big toll. We're now seeing Mexico unravel

00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:59.639
with the cartels because of this Almento. You

00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:03.139
know, it's complicated, but their business has

00:59:03.139 --> 00:59:06.059
been hurt. The border is shut down. And with

00:59:06.059 --> 00:59:09.000
the border shut down, it's making it very hard

00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:14.679
to smuggle into the country. But there is a large

00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:17.900
operation now to bring meth out of Canada into

00:59:17.900 --> 00:59:22.760
the U .S. It's going to keep coming. And China

00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:27.119
and India, they produce the chemical drugs, the

00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:29.820
chemicals that get mixed to create meth and to

00:59:29.820 --> 00:59:33.039
create fentanyl and carfentanil. No matter how

00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:35.639
many times we try to deal with them to stop doing

00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:39.780
that, it continues to happen. So it's an ugly

00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:44.260
thing. And yes, I'm still mad at Sacklers and

00:59:44.260 --> 00:59:48.130
Purdue Pharma and DOJ for not prosecuting. uh

00:59:48.130 --> 00:59:53.570
everyone involved uh and that's been 25 well

00:59:53.570 --> 00:59:56.230
right at 30 years now i guess it is 30 years

00:59:56.230 --> 00:59:58.809
since we first heard of something called an oc

00:59:58.809 --> 01:00:02.269
which is what they stamped on the white little

01:00:02.269 --> 01:00:07.929
oxycontin back in the day oc i had rig mountcastle

01:00:07.929 --> 01:00:10.650
on only probably three months ago And it was

01:00:10.650 --> 01:00:13.750
amazing. I had Sam Quinones who wrote Dreamland

01:00:13.750 --> 01:00:16.230
about the opioid crisis and did a great job talking

01:00:16.230 --> 01:00:20.650
about the Sacklers and then the cartels that

01:00:20.650 --> 01:00:22.409
were on the back end once the pill mills were

01:00:22.409 --> 01:00:26.789
closed. I also, my mom moved to Portugal a few

01:00:26.789 --> 01:00:29.849
years ago, like 25 years ago. And when I started

01:00:29.849 --> 01:00:32.010
the podcast, she said to me, hey, did you know

01:00:32.010 --> 01:00:35.590
what they did about addiction here? And it was,

01:00:35.690 --> 01:00:39.409
I mean, it's so incredible. They had a crippling.

01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:41.960
addiction crisis i think the worst in europe

01:00:41.960 --> 01:00:43.679
if not the world at that point they had a lot

01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:46.320
of soldiers go to the portuguese colonies in

01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:48.480
africa fighting one of the wars they came back

01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:52.900
heavily addicted and they did a true democracy

01:00:52.900 --> 01:00:55.219
they went to the people and they said hey this

01:00:55.219 --> 01:00:57.619
you know american model the war on drugs just

01:00:57.619 --> 01:01:00.500
isn't working arresting addicts is just not fixing

01:01:00.500 --> 01:01:03.360
this problem we want to explore different different

01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:08.070
ideas And so I sat down with the guy who spearheaded

01:01:08.070 --> 01:01:11.190
this, Zhao Gulau in Lisbon. And what they did

01:01:11.190 --> 01:01:14.409
is that, well, hey, addiction is a medical issue.

01:01:14.489 --> 01:01:18.449
It's a mental health issue. So these people are

01:01:18.449 --> 01:01:21.389
trying to deal with their trauma. Now they have

01:01:21.389 --> 01:01:23.510
the shame and the guilt from this addiction.

01:01:23.550 --> 01:01:27.239
Then it's spiraling them to getting a... Criminal

01:01:27.239 --> 01:01:29.559
record, now their ability to work is diminished.

01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:32.079
It's like this is set up for failure. It's not

01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:35.119
going to work. So what they did, they took a

01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:37.260
lot of the resources that they had, basically

01:01:37.260 --> 01:01:41.260
arresting addicts, and they put it into drug

01:01:41.260 --> 01:01:43.960
rehabilitation, mental health counseling, job

01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:47.340
creation, housing. And so it didn't just decrim.

01:01:47.460 --> 01:01:50.760
They put all the things in place to heal the

01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:53.719
hurting human being, which freed up resources

01:01:53.719 --> 01:01:57.349
for the dealers and the smugglers. So all those

01:01:57.349 --> 01:01:59.489
cops could now go and chase the really bad people.

01:01:59.989 --> 01:02:03.670
And within less than 10 years, Portugal completely

01:02:03.670 --> 01:02:07.510
reversed their addiction crisis. And it's amazing.

01:02:07.610 --> 01:02:09.989
So for me, with all these people that I've spoken

01:02:09.989 --> 01:02:12.030
to, people just like you and Rick and, you know,

01:02:12.070 --> 01:02:14.610
so many other, Jay Dobbins, all these other people

01:02:14.610 --> 01:02:18.369
from your world. It's the same kind of message.

01:02:18.530 --> 01:02:20.969
This war on drugs isn't working. And if you look,

01:02:21.030 --> 01:02:23.789
I actually did a Google search. How many millions

01:02:23.789 --> 01:02:26.329
and millions and millions and millions of dollars

01:02:26.329 --> 01:02:29.750
a Purdue farmer has given Democrats and Republicans

01:02:29.750 --> 01:02:33.070
lining their pockets? And then lo and behold,

01:02:33.170 --> 01:02:36.250
wow, none of them are behind bars. And Richard

01:02:36.250 --> 01:02:38.929
Sack is living in Boca Raton in a mansion as

01:02:38.929 --> 01:02:43.269
we speak, 200 miles south of me. So I think,

01:02:43.329 --> 01:02:46.400
and I had so many people. think this way now

01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:49.300
and we see that for example naval special warfare

01:02:49.300 --> 01:02:51.880
and ibogaine and psilocybin and the effects that

01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:54.920
they're having healing addiction opioids alcohol

01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:58.940
that i feel like well again you know like we're

01:02:58.940 --> 01:03:00.860
talking about well who's doing this well because

01:03:00.860 --> 01:03:03.260
this clearly isn't working you know we have more

01:03:03.260 --> 01:03:06.199
gangs more cartels when are we going to have

01:03:06.199 --> 01:03:09.940
the conversation of of separating addicts and

01:03:09.940 --> 01:03:12.280
then the criminals true criminals you know smuggling

01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:15.780
and dealing and putting the addicts in the hands

01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:19.579
of the medical community, not with any kind of

01:03:19.579 --> 01:03:21.860
disillusion that every single one of those is

01:03:21.860 --> 01:03:24.940
going to heal and thrive after that, but a vast

01:03:24.940 --> 01:03:27.619
majority is. Because as you talked about, teachers

01:03:27.619 --> 01:03:31.940
and pharmacists and lawyers and log workers and

01:03:31.940 --> 01:03:34.780
farmers, these are people that are just struggling.

01:03:35.179 --> 01:03:37.900
And this damn drug came in and it was the thing

01:03:37.900 --> 01:03:40.699
to fill the void at that moment. The pain initially

01:03:40.699 --> 01:03:43.539
and then the mental pain. So you get people the

01:03:43.539 --> 01:03:46.480
tools to heal their mental pain. Now you've just

01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:49.659
taken a customer out of the drug trade. And so

01:03:49.659 --> 01:03:54.320
that supply and demand is diminished. So it makes

01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:56.699
perfect sense to me. We've tried the other way.

01:03:56.800 --> 01:03:58.960
We know it doesn't work. This is like an 80 plus

01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:01.800
year longitudinal study. You know, there's crips

01:04:01.800 --> 01:04:04.190
and bloods, not because. They didn't like each

01:04:04.190 --> 01:04:06.570
other's colors. It's because the drug trade.

01:04:06.670 --> 01:04:09.150
So that is I mean, that's a huge monologue. I

01:04:09.150 --> 01:04:11.289
apologize. But that's kind of where I'm at now

01:04:11.289 --> 01:04:14.090
in my mind. Now, without loading the question,

01:04:14.269 --> 01:04:16.969
cleaning it again, what is your perspective on

01:04:16.969 --> 01:04:20.449
our war on drugs model? And is there an alternative

01:04:20.449 --> 01:04:22.090
that you think we should try in this country?

01:04:23.510 --> 01:04:27.190
I think we can go with things differently. I

01:04:27.190 --> 01:04:29.769
see we're trying to turn it around right now

01:04:29.769 --> 01:04:32.889
and do some things differently. I have no problem

01:04:32.889 --> 01:04:35.610
with blowing up drug runners, bringing this stuff

01:04:35.610 --> 01:04:39.570
coming up. That's my opinion. If that's the way

01:04:39.570 --> 01:04:42.190
it stops, it stops it. If shutting down the border

01:04:42.190 --> 01:04:47.989
to, one, force people who want to come here lawfully

01:04:47.989 --> 01:04:52.289
to come the lawful way, that you have to come

01:04:52.289 --> 01:04:56.000
the proper way, then that's great. If that cuts

01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:59.539
down on the people who are mulling people across

01:04:59.539 --> 01:05:03.360
that line who are coyotes, because you know that

01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:05.159
they're bringing children, they're bringing women,

01:05:05.340 --> 01:05:08.440
they're bringing young boys, teens, those things.

01:05:09.519 --> 01:05:12.119
They're bringing terrorists. They're bringing

01:05:12.119 --> 01:05:14.460
all kinds of people. And the back doorway, well,

01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:16.579
we have to shut the door if we have to to make

01:05:16.579 --> 01:05:19.079
that happen. But they've also been bringing dope

01:05:19.079 --> 01:05:22.690
that way forever. So if that's making that drug

01:05:22.690 --> 01:05:25.630
supply a lot center, then I'm happy with that.

01:05:25.730 --> 01:05:28.929
Okay, because we have to stop the flu. That'll

01:05:28.929 --> 01:05:30.730
help. That gives law enforcement a chance to

01:05:30.730 --> 01:05:33.489
do something. From my own agency's perspective

01:05:33.489 --> 01:05:40.210
of ATF, I am not this huge person where I think

01:05:40.210 --> 01:05:42.670
that there needs to be a lot of gun laws and

01:05:42.670 --> 01:05:44.650
another gun law and a gun law and a gun law and

01:05:44.650 --> 01:05:46.610
a gun law because that's going to fix the problem

01:05:46.610 --> 01:05:50.920
because people who murder, A homicide is against

01:05:50.920 --> 01:05:55.559
the law. People who do an armed robbery, that's

01:05:55.559 --> 01:05:57.719
already against the law. I mean, you don't steal.

01:06:00.059 --> 01:06:05.699
You know, the thing of, okay, well, you can't

01:06:05.699 --> 01:06:07.059
have a gun this, you can't have a gun that, well,

01:06:07.139 --> 01:06:09.219
it hasn't really ever affected a criminal. It

01:06:09.219 --> 01:06:10.940
hasn't really affected anybody who's mentally

01:06:10.940 --> 01:06:14.730
ill. Yeah, I would like people to secure their

01:06:14.730 --> 01:06:16.750
firearms better if they're not going to have

01:06:16.750 --> 01:06:19.929
them with them. You know, definitely teach safety.

01:06:20.110 --> 01:06:23.429
I think when we were teaching safety, particularly

01:06:23.429 --> 01:06:25.550
in the schools and things like that back in the

01:06:25.550 --> 01:06:29.789
40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, that probably worked a lot

01:06:29.789 --> 01:06:32.789
better than the not teaching people about safety.

01:06:33.170 --> 01:06:35.630
I mean, we teach them about the safety of automobiles

01:06:35.630 --> 01:06:37.349
and driving under the influence. We should teach

01:06:37.349 --> 01:06:40.050
about the safety of firearms, too, because they're

01:06:40.050 --> 01:06:42.780
out there. You're certainly not going to. have

01:06:42.780 --> 01:06:45.480
anybody pick up 400 million firearms out of the

01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:50.199
United States, it's not going to happen. Then

01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:52.880
you're not going to stop criminals from obtaining

01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:57.719
what they want. So approach things, as we talked

01:06:57.719 --> 01:07:00.400
about, with other things like farming and all.

01:07:00.500 --> 01:07:04.940
Approach it differently. This war on drugs, yeah.

01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:07.800
We have to have a better thing of what we're

01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:10.699
going to do for the addict. And we have to go

01:07:10.699 --> 01:07:14.440
after the people who profit in ways like the

01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:17.260
Sacklers did with the Purdue Pharma and the way

01:07:17.260 --> 01:07:19.639
they did that. And let me tell you, Big Tobacco

01:07:19.639 --> 01:07:21.980
did the exact same damn thing in putting all

01:07:21.980 --> 01:07:25.500
that crap into tobacco. It is not the same as

01:07:25.500 --> 01:07:27.940
an organic tobacco or the tobaccos that you perhaps

01:07:27.940 --> 01:07:31.199
get over in the Middle East. I've tried the hookah

01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:35.750
pipes. It's different. And yet it's tobacco.

01:07:37.090 --> 01:07:40.469
When you start to make that as a substance that's

01:07:40.469 --> 01:07:43.309
more appealing, that's more addictive, you're

01:07:43.309 --> 01:07:46.989
doing wrong. I know people are going to probably

01:07:46.989 --> 01:07:49.070
hate, oh, vapes are okay. No, you know what?

01:07:49.190 --> 01:07:52.429
No, they're not. So when you make a really nice

01:07:52.429 --> 01:07:56.309
flavored vape and stuff, and my 16 -year -old

01:07:56.309 --> 01:07:58.789
grandkid decides to try it, and the next thing

01:07:58.789 --> 01:08:00.969
you know, that's something that is happening.

01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:04.579
One, Nanogen is not going to be happy. But two,

01:08:05.179 --> 01:08:07.219
a lot of other people in the family aren't going

01:08:07.219 --> 01:08:11.800
to be. And three, it's like, why did they make

01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:15.739
it in this flavors? You know, why? Because that

01:08:15.739 --> 01:08:17.720
makes it more appealing. And it's like, well,

01:08:17.859 --> 01:08:20.659
OK, yeah. So in other words, that is there to

01:08:20.659 --> 01:08:24.359
make it addictive. That's not that's not entrepreneurship.

01:08:24.439 --> 01:08:27.720
That's not business. You are giving people something

01:08:27.720 --> 01:08:32.420
bad for them and all. I mean, I'm sorry if you

01:08:32.420 --> 01:08:34.560
tried to make me eat Brussels sprouts. It's not

01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:38.560
my thing at all. But maybe if you could make

01:08:38.560 --> 01:08:42.619
them taste like dark chocolate, I'd probably

01:08:42.619 --> 01:08:46.520
like Brussels sprouts. I'd be addicted. It's

01:08:46.520 --> 01:08:48.640
just, it's that sort of thing. So now you are

01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:51.859
making something that's not healthy for the body.

01:08:53.100 --> 01:08:55.300
Good. Those people have to be held responsible.

01:08:56.579 --> 01:09:00.039
I'm watching this commercial. I told you. and

01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:03.420
they are offering an opioid for an opioid, I

01:09:03.420 --> 01:09:05.720
don't care. They're offering a synthetic for

01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:10.859
a synthetic, I still don't care. Maybe if these

01:09:10.859 --> 01:09:13.600
people had a job out on a farm and had a chance

01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:15.579
to sweat this stuff out of their system, but

01:09:15.579 --> 01:09:17.220
that's not going to work for everybody, but that's

01:09:17.220 --> 01:09:20.670
just sort of my little mind concept. Give them

01:09:20.670 --> 01:09:23.670
a chance. Let them get clean for 30 days and

01:09:23.670 --> 01:09:26.229
get going and give them the programs they need.

01:09:26.590 --> 01:09:29.069
Now, how am I going to keep this stuff away from

01:09:29.069 --> 01:09:31.289
them? Well, I'd like to be able to keep the people

01:09:31.289 --> 01:09:33.750
who are bringing it in from bringing it in. I'd

01:09:33.750 --> 01:09:35.470
like to be able to keep the dealing people from

01:09:35.470 --> 01:09:39.390
doing. And I go back to the firearms again. The

01:09:39.390 --> 01:09:43.170
people who are using the firearms, who are enforcing

01:09:43.170 --> 01:09:46.630
their business with firearms, who are obtaining

01:09:46.630 --> 01:09:50.119
the firearms. in an unlawful way, such as stealing

01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:54.859
them or making them on a 3D printer, who are

01:09:54.859 --> 01:09:58.920
modifying them to use on the street, not unlike

01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:02.479
what we used to see back in the late 80s with

01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:06.539
all of the violence that used to be heavy duty.

01:10:07.279 --> 01:10:11.039
The people who are using them to gun down their

01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:13.359
competitors on the street, that sort of thing.

01:10:13.600 --> 01:10:16.560
That's where ATF needs to be so focused, so heavily

01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:20.350
focused. Go after the criminals who are doing

01:10:20.350 --> 01:10:25.329
the actual felony criminal damage that are harming

01:10:25.329 --> 01:10:29.829
other people. That's the ones you go after. You

01:10:29.829 --> 01:10:32.829
don't just suddenly say, hey, we don't like that

01:10:32.829 --> 01:10:35.649
particular thing that's on a firearm, so that's

01:10:35.649 --> 01:10:38.069
now going to be against the law to have. That's

01:10:38.069 --> 01:10:41.710
going to be an illegal item, and it's a brace.

01:10:41.909 --> 01:10:44.770
It's just a brace thing. It's not going to change.

01:10:45.390 --> 01:10:48.329
It didn't change something enough that you make

01:10:48.329 --> 01:10:52.369
that illegal. And now the 20 million people who

01:10:52.369 --> 01:10:54.689
own that, you now suddenly, that's not legal

01:10:54.689 --> 01:10:58.529
anymore, so I give it back. And we're like, okay,

01:10:59.130 --> 01:11:02.430
how many of those are actually being used to

01:11:02.430 --> 01:11:04.270
commit crimes? Well, it's not really being used

01:11:04.270 --> 01:11:08.750
to commit crimes. Why is this? Why are we messing

01:11:08.750 --> 01:11:11.729
with this? So I didn't agree with any of that.

01:11:11.810 --> 01:11:17.000
I didn't like that. And there's those little

01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:19.800
things that stay in a lane and let's go after

01:11:19.800 --> 01:11:21.640
the really bad guys. Let's go after the people

01:11:21.640 --> 01:11:24.840
who are really, really evil. And in my opinion,

01:11:24.899 --> 01:11:28.039
the people who are creating drugs or creating

01:11:28.039 --> 01:11:30.819
an addictive substance in order to keep people's

01:11:30.819 --> 01:11:34.100
money and to keep them still buying, that's wrong.

01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:37.539
I mentioned that California cartel thing, that

01:11:37.539 --> 01:11:41.819
creating vapes and creating THC products with

01:11:41.819 --> 01:11:43.380
this higher and higher and higher and higher

01:11:43.380 --> 01:11:46.829
level. of THC and, oh, well, THC is legal now.

01:11:46.890 --> 01:11:49.869
It's okay now. It's like, what level are we at?

01:11:50.010 --> 01:11:53.350
Is anybody regulating that? Because it is still

01:11:53.350 --> 01:11:58.729
hallucinogenic. It's not the same. It's not the

01:11:58.729 --> 01:12:02.109
3%. It's not the 5%. You've gone to a level now.

01:12:02.369 --> 01:12:04.750
There's a woman who stabbed her boyfriend 108

01:12:04.750 --> 01:12:08.550
times and she got off on the murder charge, homicide,

01:12:08.750 --> 01:12:14.859
because THC was something like 28%, 30 % in the

01:12:14.859 --> 01:12:17.079
marijuana that she smoked that her boyfriend

01:12:17.079 --> 01:12:22.420
gave her. Up until then, people said, oh, no,

01:12:22.479 --> 01:12:24.300
people who smoke marijuana, they're not going

01:12:24.300 --> 01:12:26.279
to do anything violent. They're laid back. They're

01:12:26.279 --> 01:12:30.300
going to be eating chips. That changes when hallucinogenic

01:12:30.300 --> 01:12:33.680
effects take effect. And if there is anything

01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:36.319
that's being added to it to make it more addictive,

01:12:36.460 --> 01:12:41.079
any kind of fentanyl or carfentanil. Those things

01:12:41.079 --> 01:12:43.619
have to be stopped. We've got to do whatever

01:12:43.619 --> 01:12:45.880
we've got to do to make China and India and anybody

01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:47.979
else that wants to produce that chemical stuff

01:12:47.979 --> 01:12:52.680
to stop it. If we have to blow up labs that are

01:12:52.680 --> 01:12:55.000
making it, then we have to blow up those labs

01:12:55.000 --> 01:12:57.619
to keep them from making it. I know they'll build

01:12:57.619 --> 01:13:01.859
another one and another one. We have to find

01:13:01.859 --> 01:13:04.619
places to put people. We can't just warehouse

01:13:04.619 --> 01:13:06.979
people and say, okay, you're a bunch of addicts.

01:13:06.979 --> 01:13:09.970
We're going to warehouse you. There's got to

01:13:09.970 --> 01:13:12.329
be better ways. You talk about what Portugal

01:13:12.329 --> 01:13:14.489
did. I think there's a few countries that have

01:13:14.489 --> 01:13:16.449
done good with it. I also think that there are

01:13:16.449 --> 01:13:18.210
a few countries that we don't want to follow

01:13:18.210 --> 01:13:21.270
their models because it's not been successful

01:13:21.270 --> 01:13:26.170
in any way at all. You just have addicts laying

01:13:26.170 --> 01:13:29.270
on the street. I don't want to see more cities.

01:13:29.510 --> 01:13:32.090
I mean, I've seen plenty, but I don't want to

01:13:32.090 --> 01:13:34.750
keep seeing cities like what's happened in Philly

01:13:34.750 --> 01:13:37.489
with the Kensington area. People just gave up

01:13:37.489 --> 01:13:39.949
on that area, and they've given up on parts of

01:13:39.949 --> 01:13:42.729
L .A. and San Francisco and Portland and Seattle,

01:13:42.930 --> 01:13:44.829
but there's more cities than that that are being

01:13:44.829 --> 01:13:48.229
affected. We can name Richmond and Charlotte,

01:13:48.489 --> 01:13:54.229
Columbia, South Carolina, Greenville. There's

01:13:54.229 --> 01:13:56.529
addicts in all those cities, too, and they are

01:13:56.529 --> 01:14:02.289
on the streets. They are homeless. They're not

01:14:02.289 --> 01:14:05.090
getting the nutrition they need. They've got

01:14:05.090 --> 01:14:08.550
their addiction issues. Crime is up because of

01:14:08.550 --> 01:14:10.750
them because they are committing small crimes,

01:14:10.949 --> 01:14:12.949
vandalism, all kinds of things in order to get

01:14:12.949 --> 01:14:17.350
whatever they need to get the next high. I can't

01:14:17.350 --> 01:14:21.090
even... I remember in the 70s people talking

01:14:21.090 --> 01:14:24.689
about shooting up heroin. And they were talking

01:14:24.689 --> 01:14:26.430
about Harlem for some reason. I don't know how

01:14:26.430 --> 01:14:29.800
it all tied in. but shooting up heroin in this

01:14:29.800 --> 01:14:32.720
needle in their arm. And I never thought I would

01:14:32.720 --> 01:14:36.439
ever see that day. And by 2000, I saw people

01:14:36.439 --> 01:14:41.180
shooting up Oxy. And we're 25 years, well, 26

01:14:41.180 --> 01:14:44.079
years, I'm sorry. I forget what year I'm in.

01:14:45.100 --> 01:14:49.020
We're 26 years past that, and needles are everywhere.

01:14:50.479 --> 01:14:52.899
Everybody seems to be shooting up something.

01:14:57.300 --> 01:15:00.680
I just didn't see that very much back in the

01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:04.819
70s, 80s, 90s, but you do now. Everybody's used

01:15:04.819 --> 01:15:06.739
to it. You've got to teach kids not to touch

01:15:06.739 --> 01:15:08.500
those, not to pick them up. It's like, can we

01:15:08.500 --> 01:15:09.939
teach them about the firearms too while we're

01:15:09.939 --> 01:15:13.300
at it? But let's definitely teach them, don't

01:15:13.300 --> 01:15:16.840
touch that stuff. We've had to retrain everybody

01:15:16.840 --> 01:15:20.340
because of the fentanyl stuff, air -soling, and

01:15:20.340 --> 01:15:26.189
possibly, yeah, and everybody. Like every law

01:15:26.189 --> 01:15:28.590
enforcement, paramedic, firefighter and stuff

01:15:28.590 --> 01:15:32.489
has now got to carry some kind of Narcan with

01:15:32.489 --> 01:15:35.109
them. Narcan's everywhere now. People have it

01:15:35.109 --> 01:15:40.149
in their homes now. Who would have thought that,

01:15:40.189 --> 01:15:43.829
yeah, you got to have Narcan? So we've got to

01:15:43.829 --> 01:15:46.289
fix some of that. And I do think that some of

01:15:46.289 --> 01:15:48.149
the things that RFK and them are offering, I

01:15:48.149 --> 01:15:49.390
mean, you know, I don't have to agree with everything

01:15:49.390 --> 01:15:52.970
that anybody says on what they want, is that

01:15:52.970 --> 01:15:56.039
physical fitness is important. Let's push that

01:15:56.039 --> 01:15:58.460
with our kids. Let's say, hey, let's stop, get

01:15:58.460 --> 01:16:01.239
out from behind that screen and let's get outside

01:16:01.239 --> 01:16:05.979
and do things. Eating fresh vegetables, eating

01:16:05.979 --> 01:16:08.539
fresh fruits, those things are great. Let's do

01:16:08.539 --> 01:16:12.539
those things. Rooftop gardens are awesome. I

01:16:12.539 --> 01:16:15.619
saw some people that were taking the old abandoned

01:16:15.619 --> 01:16:18.380
homes up in the Detroit area and raising those

01:16:18.380 --> 01:16:20.119
and then turning those areas into gardens. I

01:16:20.119 --> 01:16:22.000
thought that was the coolest thing. I was hoping

01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:23.579
that that would really take off for them in a

01:16:23.579 --> 01:16:28.180
lot of areas. I saw a young black woman who started

01:16:28.180 --> 01:16:30.199
farming and doing it up around the Charlotte.

01:16:31.119 --> 01:16:34.779
area of North Carolina, watched a couple of stories

01:16:34.779 --> 01:16:37.460
on her. And she was teaching farming and teaching

01:16:37.460 --> 01:16:39.840
people how to raise crops and the agricultural

01:16:39.840 --> 01:16:42.420
and doing and getting people to come out and

01:16:42.420 --> 01:16:47.760
getting fresh things, healthy things. I guess

01:16:47.760 --> 01:16:50.640
if we could keep pushing and promoting, be healthy,

01:16:50.739 --> 01:16:53.079
not unhealthy, do the healthier things, not the

01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:58.399
unhealthy things, it would help with our medical

01:16:58.399 --> 01:17:02.170
issues in this country. And it would maybe help

01:17:02.170 --> 01:17:04.869
steer some people away from messing with drugs.

01:17:05.369 --> 01:17:07.949
I would like to see people not mess with the

01:17:07.949 --> 01:17:13.970
drugs. You know, the drug problem is so huge.

01:17:14.970 --> 01:17:18.670
And I'm sure if you had Rick on, I'm sure he

01:17:18.670 --> 01:17:21.750
overwhelmed you with his knowledge of all of

01:17:21.750 --> 01:17:24.449
the issues that have been dealt with. Well, they

01:17:24.449 --> 01:17:26.930
say insanity is doing the same thing, expecting

01:17:26.930 --> 01:17:30.909
different results. No one will say anything other

01:17:30.909 --> 01:17:32.970
than it's just got worse. The gangs have got

01:17:32.970 --> 01:17:34.770
worse. The violence got worse. I mean, look at

01:17:34.770 --> 01:17:37.890
what's happening in our schools now. It's a mental

01:17:37.890 --> 01:17:40.029
health crisis. Addiction is a mental health crisis.

01:17:40.189 --> 01:17:42.850
Violence is a mental health crisis. And even,

01:17:42.930 --> 01:17:45.470
I've said this more recently, I had an aha moment

01:17:45.470 --> 01:17:47.970
listening to a Joe Rogan episode a couple of

01:17:47.970 --> 01:17:51.250
years ago now. But if you are Richard Sackler

01:17:51.250 --> 01:17:55.050
and you sleep well, knowing that to this day,

01:17:55.479 --> 01:17:58.420
100 ,000 Americans die from the opioid crisis

01:17:58.420 --> 01:18:01.260
that you created, that's a mental health problem.

01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:03.039
If you're the head of William Morris, knowing

01:18:03.039 --> 01:18:05.359
that your tobacco kills 8 million people around

01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:07.880
the planet every year, that's a mental health

01:18:07.880 --> 01:18:10.420
problem. So we've also got to acknowledge that

01:18:10.420 --> 01:18:12.939
some of these politicians, some of these CEOs...

01:18:13.369 --> 01:18:15.689
are no different than the addicts that are addicted

01:18:15.689 --> 01:18:18.329
to their mcdonald's or their tobacco or their

01:18:18.329 --> 01:18:21.229
you know whatever the thing is so once we acknowledge

01:18:21.229 --> 01:18:23.810
that there is a mental health problem from the

01:18:23.810 --> 01:18:26.050
blue collar worker to the president and everything

01:18:26.050 --> 01:18:29.310
in between Then we can start deconstructing and

01:18:29.310 --> 01:18:31.270
figuring out, all right, what are the issues?

01:18:31.569 --> 01:18:33.810
What are the proactive solutions? What are the

01:18:33.810 --> 01:18:36.270
holistic solutions? Like you said, diet and exercise

01:18:36.270 --> 01:18:38.869
and meditation and community and all the things

01:18:38.869 --> 01:18:40.409
that, again, here we are at the beginning of

01:18:40.409 --> 01:18:43.170
the episode, growing up 100 years ago or growing

01:18:43.170 --> 01:18:46.149
up in a small town. That is how we reverse this.

01:18:46.250 --> 01:18:48.329
But just by digging our heels in and saying,

01:18:48.449 --> 01:18:50.409
no, we're just going to keep doing the same thing.

01:18:50.569 --> 01:18:52.649
All right, well, then you're signing off on the

01:18:52.649 --> 01:18:56.569
end of humanity, ultimately. Yeah, you are. You

01:18:56.569 --> 01:18:59.069
are. You're giving up. And you want things to

01:18:59.069 --> 01:19:00.470
be better and you want the next ones to have

01:19:00.470 --> 01:19:05.069
it better and all. Technology is great. I like

01:19:05.069 --> 01:19:09.449
it to a certain point. There's other things out

01:19:09.449 --> 01:19:11.729
there. I would like people to find other ways

01:19:11.729 --> 01:19:15.340
to be entertained. If I had an addiction... It

01:19:15.340 --> 01:19:17.100
would have been adrenaline. I guess adrenaline

01:19:17.100 --> 01:19:19.500
would still be it. I don't do what I used to

01:19:19.500 --> 01:19:22.279
do. But I spent 32 years in law enforcement,

01:19:22.359 --> 01:19:24.600
and there was a certain level of adrenaline that

01:19:24.600 --> 01:19:27.039
came from that. And so every once in a while,

01:19:27.079 --> 01:19:28.579
I have to get out here and do something that

01:19:28.579 --> 01:19:32.479
is different, something that really gets me energized.

01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:35.220
Kite surfing is that next thing I kind of really

01:19:35.220 --> 01:19:36.979
feel like I'm going to have to do. That looks

01:19:36.979 --> 01:19:40.010
like fun. It does look like fun. It looks like

01:19:40.010 --> 01:19:41.729
so much fun. I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, if

01:19:41.729 --> 01:19:43.609
they'd have had that back when I was 18. Yes.

01:19:43.750 --> 01:19:45.909
I mean, to the level of what they got now, it

01:19:45.909 --> 01:19:47.909
would have been just I'd have been addicted to

01:19:47.909 --> 01:19:51.890
that probably. But things like that, I would

01:19:51.890 --> 01:19:53.609
love to see people get addicted to more things

01:19:53.609 --> 01:19:57.810
of that nature than to be, you know, like I told

01:19:57.810 --> 01:20:01.130
you about my mom sewing. That was her outlet,

01:20:01.289 --> 01:20:04.569
picking blackberries and making blackberry jelly

01:20:04.569 --> 01:20:07.990
and blackberry roll and things like that. Those

01:20:07.990 --> 01:20:10.170
things, taking care of her family, that was kind

01:20:10.170 --> 01:20:14.970
of her addiction. My dad was a smoker. He smoked

01:20:14.970 --> 01:20:18.170
Kools, which K -O -O -L, don't even know if you

01:20:18.170 --> 01:20:19.829
know what those are. They were menthol cigarettes.

01:20:22.930 --> 01:20:25.050
But he would tell us, don't smoke, don't smoke.

01:20:25.890 --> 01:20:28.710
Yes, he liked his beer after work. Get a cold

01:20:28.710 --> 01:20:30.789
beer, then go out, get on that tractor and farm,

01:20:30.970 --> 01:20:33.029
come back in, have one more cold beer, sit down

01:20:33.029 --> 01:20:36.859
and have his supper. Watch a little TV, go to

01:20:36.859 --> 01:20:40.159
bed, get up for the next morning, go to work.

01:20:42.220 --> 01:20:46.380
I don't know if he had a time to really get addicted

01:20:46.380 --> 01:20:52.460
to anything except to Kool's. But I think everybody's

01:20:52.460 --> 01:20:54.619
got something. Everybody has something that keeps

01:20:54.619 --> 01:20:57.119
them whatever they want to do. I just wish people

01:20:57.119 --> 01:21:01.460
could be... I wish that healthy things were more

01:21:01.460 --> 01:21:06.520
addictive. Because people don't seem to fight

01:21:06.520 --> 01:21:09.020
over those. They certainly don't kill each other

01:21:09.020 --> 01:21:12.180
over those things. It would be pleasant. It would

01:21:12.180 --> 01:21:18.520
be very nice to do life that way. And I don't

01:21:18.520 --> 01:21:21.100
know how to fix all of the issues that come out

01:21:21.100 --> 01:21:22.960
on the street. Maybe we work it all together

01:21:22.960 --> 01:21:27.060
and we get it all squared away. And I do want

01:21:27.060 --> 01:21:31.489
to see RFK do good with... staying on top of

01:21:31.489 --> 01:21:33.569
the pharmaceutical industries, staying on top

01:21:33.569 --> 01:21:36.550
of these food manufacturers, staying on top of

01:21:36.550 --> 01:21:38.710
that and looking at what they're putting out

01:21:38.710 --> 01:21:41.449
and seeing if we can't do a little bit better

01:21:41.449 --> 01:21:45.270
or a whole lot better. I just think we're not

01:21:45.270 --> 01:21:47.609
going to move a needle on that until we stop

01:21:47.609 --> 01:21:51.270
them funding the presidential campaigns. You

01:21:51.270 --> 01:21:54.739
know what I mean? Oh, wouldn't it be nice to

01:21:54.739 --> 01:21:57.340
see PACs go away and just say, nope, you have

01:21:57.340 --> 01:22:00.140
to do it all on your own personal money or on

01:22:00.140 --> 01:22:04.460
donations that can't be more than $100 from any

01:22:04.460 --> 01:22:06.720
one individual. And there's like no other money,

01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:09.460
no money from the foreign governments ever, like

01:22:09.460 --> 01:22:14.119
at all. And no PAC money, no fancy $50 million

01:22:14.119 --> 01:22:17.319
Hollywood dunk that you just suddenly got that

01:22:17.319 --> 01:22:19.420
was a Hollywood PAC. And it's like, what? What

01:22:19.420 --> 01:22:22.939
is that? And why do they care about southern

01:22:22.939 --> 01:22:26.859
Louisiana? You know, so instead of doing that,

01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:28.819
it'd be nice if all the little packs would just

01:22:28.819 --> 01:22:32.520
go away and quit. And I get that all these very,

01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:35.159
very wealthy people. I mean, I just was sitting

01:22:35.159 --> 01:22:38.300
there watching something trying to decide, you

01:22:38.300 --> 01:22:41.180
know, Bill Gates wants to apologize because he

01:22:41.180 --> 01:22:44.600
ever knew Epstein. And it's like, yeah, right.

01:22:44.800 --> 01:22:49.659
OK, don't believe you. Little things like that.

01:22:49.739 --> 01:22:51.640
I just wish everybody was held accountable. I

01:22:51.640 --> 01:22:54.640
wish we would hold people accountable. I wish

01:22:54.640 --> 01:22:58.720
that wealth was not the distinguishing thing

01:22:58.720 --> 01:23:01.159
that keeps people from being held accountable.

01:23:01.920 --> 01:23:06.500
Way back in 1993, I worked a criminal case. Not

01:23:06.500 --> 01:23:10.380
a make -or -break case, nothing big. But I always

01:23:10.380 --> 01:23:14.619
had this thought, if I catch you... and you are

01:23:14.619 --> 01:23:16.439
involved in what we used to do a lot, what they

01:23:16.439 --> 01:23:20.560
call gun and dope. But if you've got a gun and

01:23:20.560 --> 01:23:23.060
you've got dope, which back in that time was

01:23:23.060 --> 01:23:26.840
cocaine, crack, and you've got all that, then

01:23:26.840 --> 01:23:30.520
I arrest you, I catch you with it, you're getting

01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:32.560
prosecuted, and then I really don't care who

01:23:32.560 --> 01:23:35.100
you know or who you are. It doesn't matter. You

01:23:35.100 --> 01:23:38.600
got caught. What bothered me was seeing what

01:23:38.600 --> 01:23:42.859
they call prosecutorial discretion. And the prosecutors

01:23:42.859 --> 01:23:46.020
could decide if this person got prosecuted or

01:23:46.020 --> 01:23:50.300
not. I didn't see prosecutorial discretion used

01:23:50.300 --> 01:23:55.739
on the street drug dealers. I bought a lot of

01:23:55.739 --> 01:23:58.060
dope from them. Didn't see it used with them.

01:23:58.859 --> 01:24:00.659
Occasionally, there would be one that I would

01:24:00.659 --> 01:24:04.159
speak out for in the process because I would

01:24:04.159 --> 01:24:07.220
let them know that that person and what they

01:24:07.220 --> 01:24:12.979
did that I found decent. And I thought that they

01:24:12.979 --> 01:24:17.039
actually could, they would learn more if they

01:24:17.039 --> 01:24:19.640
didn't sit the next seven years in a state or

01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:23.100
federal prison. But for the most part, no. And

01:24:23.100 --> 01:24:27.279
then I saw people that they didn't even get a

01:24:27.279 --> 01:24:29.699
smack on the hand. They just got told, oh, don't

01:24:29.699 --> 01:24:32.840
do that anymore. Bye. And they didn't, nothing.

01:24:33.460 --> 01:24:37.640
So in 93, I ended up catching someone who was

01:24:37.640 --> 01:24:40.960
in the community that was super wealthy. super

01:24:40.960 --> 01:24:43.520
duper wealthy from a family that was super duper

01:24:43.520 --> 01:24:48.800
wealthy. They were edging up to the billion level

01:24:48.800 --> 01:24:52.979
in money and they were powerful in the community.

01:24:53.779 --> 01:24:56.979
They just built a brand new gigantic golf course

01:24:56.979 --> 01:24:59.720
and all kinds of other things going on in the

01:24:59.720 --> 01:25:07.760
community. Very influential. And I was told that

01:25:09.170 --> 01:25:12.689
through his defense attorney, that if he were

01:25:12.689 --> 01:25:15.789
to be prosecuted, lots of people would be put

01:25:15.789 --> 01:25:20.010
out of jobs because of it. And I was like, he

01:25:20.010 --> 01:25:23.449
should have thought of that. Not my problem.

01:25:24.369 --> 01:25:31.810
Then I was told that if he gets prosecuted, it's

01:25:31.810 --> 01:25:33.649
going to make the newspapers and it's going to

01:25:33.649 --> 01:25:36.029
cause them problems with international business

01:25:36.029 --> 01:25:37.789
and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, well,

01:25:37.810 --> 01:25:39.930
so far, everybody's done a very good job of not

01:25:39.930 --> 01:25:41.710
allowing the newspapers to know what's going

01:25:41.710 --> 01:25:44.869
on. And it's not in the newspapers. Again, not

01:25:44.869 --> 01:25:47.090
my problem. Back in the day, I didn't talk to

01:25:47.090 --> 01:25:49.210
the media. Wasn't my problem. If they found out,

01:25:49.229 --> 01:25:51.510
they did. If they didn't, they didn't. Life goes

01:25:51.510 --> 01:25:55.250
on. I got other cases to work. This thing piddled

01:25:55.250 --> 01:25:57.630
around for two years, but I was really appreciative

01:25:57.630 --> 01:26:00.420
of the U .S. attorney. Because the U .S. Attorney

01:26:00.420 --> 01:26:02.840
for the Western District of Virginia caught me

01:26:02.840 --> 01:26:05.260
in the parking lot one day as I was heading out

01:26:05.260 --> 01:26:07.699
to my car after a long meeting regarding that

01:26:07.699 --> 01:26:11.319
same case, that same person. And he said, I promise

01:26:11.319 --> 01:26:13.779
you, this is not going to be swept under the

01:26:13.779 --> 01:26:19.100
rug. It's not going away. It's not going to disappear.

01:26:20.979 --> 01:26:23.800
I have a lot of respect for that man and that

01:26:23.800 --> 01:26:28.680
moment. I thanked him. I went, got in my car.

01:26:29.350 --> 01:26:32.229
Two months later, we were standing in the courthouse,

01:26:32.409 --> 01:26:37.430
no media, no anybody, and the wealthy gentleman

01:26:37.430 --> 01:26:44.250
played guilty, and he got his sentencing, and

01:26:44.250 --> 01:26:48.409
he got his ankle monitor, and everything was

01:26:48.409 --> 01:26:50.609
set up for him, and he had a felony conviction

01:26:50.609 --> 01:26:53.409
for the drug and gun, et cetera. He had all of

01:26:53.409 --> 01:26:55.149
that. He had an ankle monitor. He wasn't going

01:26:55.149 --> 01:26:57.850
to go to prison, but he was. on an ankle monitor,

01:26:58.010 --> 01:27:00.250
had a probation officer, he was probation signed

01:27:00.250 --> 01:27:05.670
to him, had his helicopter license pulled so

01:27:05.670 --> 01:27:08.149
that he would not be flying while they made sure

01:27:08.149 --> 01:27:09.569
that he wasn't, because that was kind of one

01:27:09.569 --> 01:27:11.770
of those concerns. It's like, you know, he does

01:27:11.770 --> 01:27:17.170
a lot of coke and he's flying a helicopter. Weird

01:27:17.170 --> 01:27:24.149
rules about that too. Strange. Anyway, he threw

01:27:24.149 --> 01:27:27.060
a fit because That might interfere with him being

01:27:27.060 --> 01:27:30.560
able to travel over the holidays, Christmas,

01:27:30.640 --> 01:27:32.159
with the family because they weren't going to

01:27:32.159 --> 01:27:33.579
celebrate there locally. They were going to go

01:27:33.579 --> 01:27:35.539
somewhere else, and that ankle monitor, he wasn't

01:27:35.539 --> 01:27:38.380
going to be able to do things with the family

01:27:38.380 --> 01:27:41.420
for the holidays. Luckily, the federal judge

01:27:41.420 --> 01:27:45.539
in that case really didn't care. So that was

01:27:45.539 --> 01:27:48.699
nice. It was like, it's not my problem. This

01:27:48.699 --> 01:27:50.560
is what it is. We've told you what it is. This

01:27:50.560 --> 01:27:53.920
is it. You've signed your plea agreement. You've

01:27:53.920 --> 01:27:56.369
signed this. You've signed that. Do you know

01:27:56.369 --> 01:28:00.750
what? The earth didn't quit turning. Nothing

01:28:00.750 --> 01:28:05.210
changed. No one lost jobs. Nothing bad happened

01:28:05.210 --> 01:28:07.689
from the fallout of him getting a conviction

01:28:07.689 --> 01:28:12.289
for his two handguns and his cocaine and all

01:28:12.289 --> 01:28:15.750
of the other stuff. Nothing, nothing at all.

01:28:15.829 --> 01:28:19.470
Birds didn't fall out of nests and the sun come

01:28:19.470 --> 01:28:22.380
crashing down and rising in the west. None of

01:28:22.380 --> 01:28:25.340
those things happened just because he got prosecuted

01:28:25.340 --> 01:28:30.859
like he was supposed to be. So I don't partake

01:28:30.859 --> 01:28:33.260
when they tell me all these bad things will happen

01:28:33.260 --> 01:28:35.399
if these wealthy people go to jail. It's like,

01:28:35.500 --> 01:28:38.020
that won't. I don't know if you've seen on the

01:28:38.020 --> 01:28:40.579
internet, there was that one, I forget who it

01:28:40.579 --> 01:28:42.979
was, it was Pam Bondi or someone, but saying,

01:28:43.020 --> 01:28:44.579
well, you know, if we arrested everyone on the

01:28:44.579 --> 01:28:47.680
list, then the whole system would fail. And everyone's

01:28:47.680 --> 01:28:49.979
comment was like, and there's a downside to this?

01:28:50.100 --> 01:28:52.779
Like, no, this sounds amazing. Let's control

01:28:52.779 --> 01:28:55.579
or delete, you know, perfect. But, you know,

01:28:55.619 --> 01:28:57.720
it's funny, the UK have been prosecuting people,

01:28:57.819 --> 01:28:59.979
you know, the former Prince Andrew, and then

01:28:59.979 --> 01:29:02.520
I think the envoy or whatever he was, diplomat

01:29:02.520 --> 01:29:06.420
to the US. But it's not the Ford things. But

01:29:06.420 --> 01:29:09.159
it's not for the horrid crimes with the underage

01:29:09.159 --> 01:29:11.680
girls. It's not for that. It's not for the trafficking.

01:29:11.800 --> 01:29:13.300
It's not for any of that. It's not for the sex

01:29:13.300 --> 01:29:16.079
trafficking. It's not for the disgusting, perverted

01:29:16.079 --> 01:29:20.979
pedophile type stuff. It's for passing off government

01:29:20.979 --> 01:29:23.579
secrets and things that probably help people

01:29:23.579 --> 01:29:26.630
make money. So the insider trading is what it

01:29:26.630 --> 01:29:28.810
was. I mean, let's admit it. There's a lot of

01:29:28.810 --> 01:29:32.149
insider trading because we have congressmen and

01:29:32.149 --> 01:29:35.890
senators and people who have made hundreds of

01:29:35.890 --> 01:29:38.470
millions and tens of millions and whatever in

01:29:38.470 --> 01:29:42.029
their careers. And they do better than the stock

01:29:42.029 --> 01:29:45.609
exchange because how? No, really? Come on, Nancy,

01:29:45.729 --> 01:29:48.510
Paul, you don't. No, there's a lot going on that

01:29:48.510 --> 01:29:54.250
you shouldn't be allowed to profit here. So,

01:29:54.390 --> 01:29:57.670
I mean, but drug dealers want to profiteer. So

01:29:57.670 --> 01:29:59.989
do elected officials. And it's like, really?

01:30:00.210 --> 01:30:05.109
That's not how. Well, wait a minute. Wrong. No,

01:30:05.229 --> 01:30:07.810
I look at that and I think, yeah, why don't we

01:30:07.810 --> 01:30:10.529
get people done? And then I remember that Ms.

01:30:10.689 --> 01:30:13.529
Maxwell was on trial out in California and all

01:30:13.529 --> 01:30:15.710
this stuff was going on and something in New

01:30:15.710 --> 01:30:17.989
York. Everything was going back and forth. And

01:30:17.989 --> 01:30:20.949
then there was this federal judge with that trial.

01:30:21.109 --> 01:30:24.420
And there was a. I call it the black book, but

01:30:24.420 --> 01:30:26.079
I don't know what color it was, and I don't know

01:30:26.079 --> 01:30:30.600
exactly what format it was in. It was a list

01:30:30.600 --> 01:30:33.619
of people that they dealt with that were involved

01:30:33.619 --> 01:30:38.000
with the Epstein and Maxwell. I don't know what

01:30:38.000 --> 01:30:40.180
they were doing in their dealings, but it was

01:30:40.180 --> 01:30:42.939
a list. It was people. It was information on

01:30:42.939 --> 01:30:46.720
those folks. And the federal judge in the case

01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:49.939
at the end, when they wanted it released, said

01:30:49.939 --> 01:30:56.789
no. that that would cause unnecessary harm, undue

01:30:56.789 --> 01:31:00.930
harm to people and other businesses in other

01:31:00.930 --> 01:31:03.329
areas. And there was no proof, no anything like

01:31:03.329 --> 01:31:07.149
that. And so it was sealed and it was not unsealed

01:31:07.149 --> 01:31:10.789
until 2025. And that took a really huge push

01:31:10.789 --> 01:31:16.369
by the DOJ to actually get that unsealed so that

01:31:16.369 --> 01:31:19.109
that information could be out there. And it's

01:31:19.109 --> 01:31:24.079
like. You have the Lolita Express people that

01:31:24.079 --> 01:31:26.819
were traveling. You know people who were going.

01:31:26.960 --> 01:31:30.659
There's photos of them at the island, you know,

01:31:30.659 --> 01:31:33.140
tickled to death to be there. I remember seeing

01:31:33.140 --> 01:31:36.340
one, I guess it was Chris Wallace. He's tickled

01:31:36.340 --> 01:31:38.000
to death, and he's waving and smiling, getting

01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:40.680
off some boat or something, going there. You

01:31:40.680 --> 01:31:42.439
know, and I'm thinking, there's these people.

01:31:42.500 --> 01:31:43.939
We know they were going there, and they were

01:31:43.939 --> 01:31:47.180
going long after 2008 when Epstein had had the

01:31:47.180 --> 01:31:50.149
conviction. You know, they were still going,

01:31:50.210 --> 01:31:53.829
still partying, still hanging out with him. And

01:31:53.829 --> 01:31:57.130
it continued over and over and over. And I'm

01:31:57.130 --> 01:31:58.949
supposed to think the world is going to collapse

01:31:58.949 --> 01:32:01.869
because those names were revealed. It was like,

01:32:01.989 --> 01:32:06.270
who? But they're lawyers for all of those people

01:32:06.270 --> 01:32:08.890
that did not want that information out. And they

01:32:08.890 --> 01:32:11.489
were pressuring out and pressuring. And for some

01:32:11.489 --> 01:32:13.170
reason, the system said, you know, you're right.

01:32:13.390 --> 01:32:17.270
And so for some 2019 to 2025, we didn't get to

01:32:17.270 --> 01:32:20.539
know the names. even from that list. And it's

01:32:20.539 --> 01:32:22.779
like, come on. And there's so much more. Which

01:32:22.779 --> 01:32:24.720
spans both sides of the political aisle as well,

01:32:24.880 --> 01:32:26.859
which we're still seeing now. You know, we were

01:32:26.859 --> 01:32:29.060
assuming that, oh, this was this one side protecting

01:32:29.060 --> 01:32:31.060
it, this other side, the moment they get in,

01:32:31.140 --> 01:32:33.380
they're going to blow it open. Like, wait a second

01:32:33.380 --> 01:32:35.699
here. This seems to be a rich person thing, not

01:32:35.699 --> 01:32:38.819
a left or right thing. It's a huge money thing

01:32:38.819 --> 01:32:42.439
and stuff. It was like finding out that the assistant

01:32:42.439 --> 01:32:45.479
director to FBI, James Denny, who was forced

01:32:45.479 --> 01:32:49.140
to retire last year, to find out that he had

01:32:49.140 --> 01:32:51.520
taken the New York City documents that had been

01:32:51.520 --> 01:32:56.000
taken from the New York City home, and they weren't

01:32:56.000 --> 01:33:00.140
put into the evidence locker. They weren't processed

01:33:00.140 --> 01:33:04.640
the correct way. He had them placed in a locked

01:33:04.640 --> 01:33:10.560
closet that he had there in FBI's New York headquarters,

01:33:10.760 --> 01:33:13.359
and no one was allowed access to it, which meant

01:33:13.359 --> 01:33:14.979
that the case agent, who was down in the D .C.

01:33:15.000 --> 01:33:17.970
area, didn't even know about the things that

01:33:17.970 --> 01:33:20.170
were up there in New York, locked up in a closet,

01:33:20.250 --> 01:33:22.250
didn't have access. They certainly hadn't gone

01:33:22.250 --> 01:33:24.510
through the processing the way they should or

01:33:24.510 --> 01:33:26.750
getting the barcoding for every piece of evidence

01:33:26.750 --> 01:33:28.510
like they're supposed to so they can be accessed

01:33:28.510 --> 01:33:31.109
through a computer when you scan documents in

01:33:31.109 --> 01:33:33.050
and stuff. They weren't there. They'd all been

01:33:33.050 --> 01:33:35.630
locked away. And until somebody was a whistleblower

01:33:35.630 --> 01:33:40.220
last year and made that clear, that... There

01:33:40.220 --> 01:33:43.100
were documents that were up there. And so when

01:33:43.100 --> 01:33:45.380
you have somebody on TV saying, these are all

01:33:45.380 --> 01:33:46.920
the documents that are on my desk, it's like,

01:33:46.960 --> 01:33:50.000
no, they're not. There's a whole closet up here

01:33:50.000 --> 01:33:52.119
we're not allowed to go in. It's like, what kind

01:33:52.119 --> 01:33:54.399
of closet? Well, it's where the evidence is at.

01:33:54.800 --> 01:33:57.539
Why is it in a closet locked up with no one having

01:33:57.539 --> 01:34:01.340
access except that guy? What's going on? Oh,

01:34:01.359 --> 01:34:03.340
well, he didn't want to put it in evidence locker.

01:34:03.659 --> 01:34:08.560
That stuff was taken way back. Why is it locked

01:34:08.560 --> 01:34:10.960
there? Who made that decision? Who made that

01:34:10.960 --> 01:34:13.819
decision back in, what was that, 2019? Something

01:34:13.819 --> 01:34:16.020
like that, 2020? Who made the decision to put

01:34:16.020 --> 01:34:21.140
things of evidence in a closet and then never

01:34:21.140 --> 01:34:23.640
let anybody have access or see it? I mean, might

01:34:23.640 --> 01:34:27.979
as well have thrown it away. It just boggles

01:34:27.979 --> 01:34:29.840
the mind that there are people willing to do

01:34:29.840 --> 01:34:32.300
this, and it's all about... protecting wealthy

01:34:32.300 --> 01:34:34.300
people and it like you said it's not a political

01:34:34.300 --> 01:34:38.600
thing it's people willing to protect people with

01:34:38.600 --> 01:34:40.819
money and why they haven't done anything for

01:34:40.819 --> 01:34:42.159
you they're not going to do anything for you

01:34:42.159 --> 01:34:47.500
i've always said it nauseates me with the michael

01:34:47.500 --> 01:34:50.079
jackson case don't get me wrong yeah clearly

01:34:50.079 --> 01:34:53.159
there was childhood trauma we know that but if

01:34:53.159 --> 01:34:55.979
if you take michael out of the equation you put

01:34:55.979 --> 01:34:57.939
that creepy guy from down the street in your

01:34:57.939 --> 01:35:00.550
neighborhood Put it in the exact thing. All right.

01:35:00.550 --> 01:35:03.350
He invites all these children over to play in

01:35:03.350 --> 01:35:06.170
his bedroom. He sends away the parents. What

01:35:06.170 --> 01:35:08.630
would you think? But all of a sudden, because

01:35:08.630 --> 01:35:11.310
he can dance and he's got one glove on his hand,

01:35:11.449 --> 01:35:13.590
then, oh, no, no, but Michael's okay. No, Michael

01:35:13.590 --> 01:35:17.289
was also a multi -multi -millionaire. OJ was

01:35:17.289 --> 01:35:19.350
very, very, you know what I mean? It doesn't

01:35:19.350 --> 01:35:21.670
matter about the color of your skin. It's about

01:35:21.670 --> 01:35:23.729
whether you have money or whether you don't.

01:35:24.029 --> 01:35:27.289
you know and so yeah so that's that that really

01:35:27.289 --> 01:35:30.409
irks me they'll they'll you know for a far lesser

01:35:30.409 --> 01:35:32.689
thing they'll remove someone from spotify and

01:35:32.689 --> 01:35:34.489
i'm all right so are you going to remove michael

01:35:34.489 --> 01:35:37.390
jackson from spotify it's true you know i mean

01:35:37.390 --> 01:35:39.909
it's the same exact thing but we pick and choose

01:35:39.909 --> 01:35:42.510
who the bad guys are depending on oh yeah but

01:35:42.510 --> 01:35:44.930
i really like beat it so we'll just leave him

01:35:44.930 --> 01:35:47.649
alone no how about you know if you if you're

01:35:47.649 --> 01:35:49.949
chasing predators then chase predators all of

01:35:49.949 --> 01:35:53.439
them Catch them all. Put everybody away. I always

01:35:53.439 --> 01:35:57.420
was that way. I said, all I ever wanted to do

01:35:57.420 --> 01:35:59.659
when I got into law enforcement, I said, when

01:35:59.659 --> 01:36:02.100
I realized criminal investigation, actually working

01:36:02.100 --> 01:36:04.159
criminal investigations, felonies, that sort

01:36:04.159 --> 01:36:06.439
of thing, and doing that kind of work and crime

01:36:06.439 --> 01:36:09.159
scene work. I like crime scene stuff. But all

01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:11.880
I ever really wanted to do was let me catch bad

01:36:11.880 --> 01:36:14.579
guys. I don't want to supervise people. I don't

01:36:14.579 --> 01:36:17.159
want to go up a management ladder. I didn't want

01:36:17.159 --> 01:36:19.420
to do that. I spent my 32 years in law enforcement.

01:36:20.199 --> 01:36:22.460
I wanted to catch bad guys. Let me catch the

01:36:22.460 --> 01:36:28.300
people who hurt other people. Let me help a community

01:36:28.300 --> 01:36:31.699
or an individual by catching the people who bring

01:36:31.699 --> 01:36:35.000
harm. Whatever it is that they're doing. If you're

01:36:35.000 --> 01:36:36.600
an arsonist, I'll catch you. If you're a bomber,

01:36:36.779 --> 01:36:39.600
I'll catch you. I'll work with every resource

01:36:39.600 --> 01:36:43.420
I can, which means a lot of people. Whatever

01:36:43.420 --> 01:36:45.840
it's going to take to catch you. I will do my

01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:50.199
best to collect all the evidence. to know what

01:36:50.199 --> 01:36:51.939
the evidence is, to see it all. It's not going

01:36:51.939 --> 01:36:54.779
to be locked in some closet somewhere. I'm going

01:36:54.779 --> 01:36:58.140
to go through it every day. I'm going to have

01:36:58.140 --> 01:37:01.380
as much invested in it as the victim and as much

01:37:01.380 --> 01:37:04.079
as the victim's family because I want to catch

01:37:04.079 --> 01:37:07.060
that person. Let me catch bad guys. Let me lock

01:37:07.060 --> 01:37:09.539
them away. But it's not, oh, well, I don't want

01:37:09.539 --> 01:37:12.020
to lock that one away because, you know, they're

01:37:12.020 --> 01:37:14.739
wealthy. They're famous. And I was like, I don't

01:37:14.739 --> 01:37:16.600
care. It doesn't mean anything to me. It never

01:37:16.600 --> 01:37:19.319
did. People are always asking me, you always

01:37:19.319 --> 01:37:21.060
got to, when you traveled and you were doing

01:37:21.060 --> 01:37:23.079
these little details and things, didn't you get

01:37:23.079 --> 01:37:25.560
to meet some celebrities? And I was like, I saw

01:37:25.560 --> 01:37:29.659
them. They didn't mean anything to me. And I

01:37:29.659 --> 01:37:31.279
was like, isn't that really cool? I was like,

01:37:31.420 --> 01:37:37.380
I guess. I don't know. I mean, they were just

01:37:37.380 --> 01:37:40.979
there. I don't really care. I mean, I don't.

01:37:42.180 --> 01:37:47.359
They're just people. I'm not enamored with that.

01:37:47.699 --> 01:37:51.180
And so I didn't understand it. I had a guy that

01:37:51.180 --> 01:37:53.460
was giving me a lot of grief back in 1992 because

01:37:53.460 --> 01:37:56.479
he insisted that he and his family had to go

01:37:56.479 --> 01:37:58.819
a certain way. And I was working on detail for

01:37:58.819 --> 01:38:01.279
the Secret Service. And the gentleman was very,

01:38:01.399 --> 01:38:04.920
very, very rude and very, very belligerent and

01:38:04.920 --> 01:38:08.100
just couldn't do it anyway. And I was like...

01:38:08.270 --> 01:38:11.090
I am not to allow anyone through here. It's blocked

01:38:11.090 --> 01:38:14.590
off. You can't get anywhere past here, whatever.

01:38:15.430 --> 01:38:17.569
But he made it clear that he was from Delaware.

01:38:17.609 --> 01:38:21.130
He knew there that he knew and he was expected.

01:38:21.590 --> 01:38:24.149
And I'm like trying to get the supervisor to

01:38:24.149 --> 01:38:26.010
come out. And the supervisor does come out and

01:38:26.010 --> 01:38:28.970
they do redirect the gentleman and his family.

01:38:30.810 --> 01:38:33.750
And they put a Secret Service person with him

01:38:33.750 --> 01:38:35.869
to. Take him back the way he's supposed to go

01:38:35.869 --> 01:38:37.390
because we're trying to have a polite conversation.

01:38:37.649 --> 01:38:43.729
But he's just very adamant that he was famous

01:38:43.729 --> 01:38:46.710
and he was important. I had no idea who this

01:38:46.710 --> 01:38:51.289
guy named Joe Biden was. I had no clue. That's

01:38:51.289 --> 01:38:54.289
what his name was. And so I leave and he said,

01:38:54.750 --> 01:38:56.989
you know who that was? And he said his name was

01:38:56.989 --> 01:39:01.409
Joe Biden or something. And they're like, he's

01:39:01.409 --> 01:39:03.489
the senator or something like that. I said, OK.

01:39:04.010 --> 01:39:06.670
What does that mean? He was a senator. He's from

01:39:06.670 --> 01:39:12.109
here. I was like, okay. You still can't drive

01:39:12.109 --> 01:39:14.489
a golf cart and go down that way. It's blocked

01:39:14.489 --> 01:39:16.649
off. There's all kinds of stuff down that way.

01:39:17.010 --> 01:39:19.529
I said, why didn't he follow directions? Why

01:39:19.529 --> 01:39:22.529
did he keep telling me who he was? What was the

01:39:22.529 --> 01:39:25.670
importance of that? You don't understand who

01:39:25.670 --> 01:39:30.729
I am. It's not going to make the wall and the

01:39:30.729 --> 01:39:36.329
fencing go away. But it's just people like that.

01:39:36.390 --> 01:39:38.189
You meet them all the time. And it's just like,

01:39:38.229 --> 01:39:42.069
you don't know who I am. I guess I don't. I don't

01:39:42.069 --> 01:39:44.689
know. I had people when I was a state trooper

01:39:44.689 --> 01:39:46.729
back in the day that would always tell me, my

01:39:46.729 --> 01:39:50.470
lawyer is so -and -so. Your career is over. It's

01:39:50.470 --> 01:39:56.149
like, all righty. Whatever you think. It's a

01:39:56.149 --> 01:39:59.069
weird thing. People think that that matters.

01:39:59.949 --> 01:40:04.220
Yeah. Well, I know some celebrities. I know them.

01:40:04.340 --> 01:40:06.319
I'm friends with them because they're good people

01:40:06.319 --> 01:40:08.500
that happen to be actors or good people that

01:40:08.500 --> 01:40:10.260
happen to be, you know, whatever the thing. So

01:40:10.260 --> 01:40:13.619
that fame doesn't make you a dick. You know,

01:40:13.640 --> 01:40:15.399
you're a dick that became famous. No, it doesn't

01:40:15.399 --> 01:40:19.359
make me a dick. Anybody can be a dick. Anybody

01:40:19.359 --> 01:40:22.739
can. I'm sure I can. But the thing being is,

01:40:22.779 --> 01:40:29.130
it's... I don't find myself needing to be extra

01:40:29.130 --> 01:40:33.010
special to them or not be extra special. I will

01:40:33.010 --> 01:40:36.829
hold a door open for anybody. I will help anybody

01:40:36.829 --> 01:40:39.850
that happens to need help with their groceries

01:40:39.850 --> 01:40:42.210
in the grocery store. I don't care. Whatever.

01:40:43.470 --> 01:40:46.010
I was raised that way. You're supposed to be

01:40:46.010 --> 01:40:49.350
nice to everyone, help everybody out, be polite

01:40:49.350 --> 01:40:51.149
to everyone, treat people the way you want to

01:40:51.149 --> 01:40:55.539
be treated. And if you happen to be famous, well,

01:40:55.619 --> 01:40:58.840
that's nice. I'm proud of your success. Good

01:40:58.840 --> 01:41:02.560
for you. And if you happen to be wealthy, well,

01:41:02.699 --> 01:41:05.659
I hope that you got it honest. And I hope you

01:41:05.659 --> 01:41:07.739
do the right things with the wealth. Absolutely.

01:41:09.100 --> 01:41:14.659
Because I've seen a whole lot of people that

01:41:14.659 --> 01:41:18.859
are poor people that are wealthy with friends.

01:41:21.520 --> 01:41:23.779
And they give you the shirt off their back without

01:41:23.779 --> 01:41:25.979
thinking about it. They give you a bed in their

01:41:25.979 --> 01:41:28.420
home. They give you food to eat. You know, you

01:41:28.420 --> 01:41:30.960
can put your feet under their table and they'd

01:41:30.960 --> 01:41:32.859
never question it. They do anything for you in

01:41:32.859 --> 01:41:36.020
the world and they really don't care. They just

01:41:36.020 --> 01:41:38.239
would help you. And when people are going around,

01:41:38.380 --> 01:41:40.399
I always think about it when we were kids and

01:41:40.399 --> 01:41:42.100
we would all have to sell Girl Scout cookies.

01:41:42.220 --> 01:41:43.600
Well, it's a little small town. We're all in

01:41:43.600 --> 01:41:45.439
the Girl Scouts. So every little girl is trying

01:41:45.439 --> 01:41:47.779
to sell Girl Scout cookies to their family, to

01:41:47.779 --> 01:41:51.270
their friends. But so were all the other little

01:41:51.270 --> 01:41:53.989
girls in town, in their church and in their school,

01:41:53.989 --> 01:41:56.890
etc. And here these people were. It was so nice

01:41:56.890 --> 01:41:59.029
because everybody was working, but they would

01:41:59.029 --> 01:42:02.829
always buy that box of cookies and do. Or, I

01:42:02.829 --> 01:42:04.390
just bought a box of cookies from so -and -so.

01:42:04.909 --> 01:42:06.630
And I always felt sorry for my grandmother because

01:42:06.630 --> 01:42:08.750
she had so many little granddaughters that were

01:42:08.750 --> 01:42:13.329
selling boxes of cookies. It was the thing. But

01:42:13.329 --> 01:42:16.909
it's that sort of thing. There are people who

01:42:16.909 --> 01:42:19.119
will reach down in their pocket and... hand you

01:42:19.119 --> 01:42:23.060
their last dollar and they don't even, they don't

01:42:23.060 --> 01:42:26.840
question it, you know? Um, you know, and it's

01:42:26.840 --> 01:42:30.680
there to me, those are famous people. They just

01:42:30.680 --> 01:42:35.800
aren't known. And yeah. Well, I want to transition

01:42:35.800 --> 01:42:37.979
to the book. I mean, we've been very philosophical

01:42:37.979 --> 01:42:40.159
in our conversation. We haven't hit it deep into

01:42:40.159 --> 01:42:42.180
your career. So let's talk about where people

01:42:42.180 --> 01:42:46.119
can, can learn more. So what made you, uh, right.

01:42:46.279 --> 01:42:49.649
Becoming fire. And then also, Was there any element

01:42:49.649 --> 01:42:52.449
of catharsis of putting pen to paper at the end

01:42:52.449 --> 01:42:56.550
of a career? Oh, yeah. Yeah. People are always

01:42:56.550 --> 01:42:58.989
asking me about my career and what I did. And

01:42:58.989 --> 01:43:01.909
I used to tell all the funny stories from work

01:43:01.909 --> 01:43:04.069
or the stuff that I thought they would find funny

01:43:04.069 --> 01:43:06.750
because I didn't want them to get into the heavy

01:43:06.750 --> 01:43:08.390
duty stuff. And they didn't need to know some

01:43:08.390 --> 01:43:12.050
of the stuff I saw or dealt with. And over the

01:43:12.050 --> 01:43:14.270
years, I kept looking for women who'd written

01:43:14.270 --> 01:43:18.869
books about their law enforcement career. I really

01:43:18.869 --> 01:43:22.930
wasn't finding too many that I was chasing after

01:43:22.930 --> 01:43:24.949
that I thought were really cool. I did look,

01:43:25.050 --> 01:43:28.229
Danny Brooke wrote one about her undercover work,

01:43:28.270 --> 01:43:31.470
Undercover Copper. Danny Brooke out of the UK.

01:43:31.569 --> 01:43:34.430
I liked her book. I just read that a couple of

01:43:34.430 --> 01:43:38.449
years ago. And there's a few others that did

01:43:38.449 --> 01:43:41.979
their stories that I really liked. But I kept

01:43:41.979 --> 01:43:43.619
thinking there's not a lot out there, and there

01:43:43.619 --> 01:43:45.939
really aren't a lot of books by women who had

01:43:45.939 --> 01:43:47.479
a law enforcement career, if you really look.

01:43:47.819 --> 01:43:50.420
In fact, Police One magazine did a research on

01:43:50.420 --> 01:43:53.600
it back in 2007. I found that in my research.

01:43:53.779 --> 01:43:56.279
There were 600 -plus books written by men, and

01:43:56.279 --> 01:43:59.840
there were 21 by women at that time. There's

01:43:59.840 --> 01:44:02.819
probably somewhere between 35 and 40 books by

01:44:02.819 --> 01:44:07.119
women right now, including mine. And that's not

01:44:07.119 --> 01:44:09.439
a lot more increase. And I thought women ought

01:44:09.439 --> 01:44:12.619
to tell their story, what they did and how they

01:44:12.619 --> 01:44:14.279
got to where they were, what they were doing.

01:44:14.600 --> 01:44:17.979
So I started writing my story. Yes, it's very

01:44:17.979 --> 01:44:19.520
cathartic because there's a lot of things you

01:44:19.520 --> 01:44:21.840
think back on and you think through and that

01:44:21.840 --> 01:44:24.220
you remember and people that you remember. So

01:44:24.220 --> 01:44:32.159
I tried to be just respectful of the people that

01:44:32.159 --> 01:44:36.020
passed away doing the job. and make sure that

01:44:36.020 --> 01:44:38.460
they did not get forget. I'm very big on the

01:44:38.460 --> 01:44:41.760
never forgotten issue. Very big on that with

01:44:41.760 --> 01:44:44.819
9 -11 and with everything else. And I decided

01:44:44.819 --> 01:44:46.779
that I would write a book. So I talked to a book

01:44:46.779 --> 01:44:48.260
coach and a few other people, and they said,

01:44:48.300 --> 01:44:51.380
you had 32 years, and you stayed in the field,

01:44:51.399 --> 01:44:53.800
and you worked all these things. You've seen

01:44:53.800 --> 01:44:57.020
a lot of things. You're very active in your work.

01:44:57.920 --> 01:44:59.600
Have you thought about writing more than one

01:44:59.600 --> 01:45:02.000
book? And I was like, I'm going to be lucky to

01:45:02.000 --> 01:45:06.300
write one. Anyway, they talked me into breaking

01:45:06.300 --> 01:45:09.500
it up a little bit. So this is my book. This

01:45:09.500 --> 01:45:12.880
is Becoming Fire. It's Chasing the Passion to

01:45:12.880 --> 01:45:15.439
Protect, Serve, and Love. And it's a true crime

01:45:15.439 --> 01:45:20.760
memoir. I wrote about my first five years in

01:45:20.760 --> 01:45:22.380
the law enforcement career where I started with

01:45:22.380 --> 01:45:24.920
the Virginia State Police. When I started in

01:45:24.920 --> 01:45:28.260
1986, I was one of the very first females that

01:45:28.260 --> 01:45:31.369
came on. with the Virginia State Police. They'd

01:45:31.369 --> 01:45:36.609
been hiring women since about 1976, but had not

01:45:36.609 --> 01:45:39.550
hired very many at the time. And so it was very,

01:45:39.609 --> 01:45:42.329
very slow in the process of growing. So there

01:45:42.329 --> 01:45:45.670
were not very many of us. I always tell people

01:45:45.670 --> 01:45:49.350
it was maybe 22 to 25 females, and there were

01:45:49.350 --> 01:45:52.050
1 ,200 men that worked for the Virginia State

01:45:52.050 --> 01:45:55.670
Police at the time. That was the real numbers.

01:45:56.329 --> 01:46:03.760
They never really would tell us. Then I stayed

01:46:03.760 --> 01:46:06.800
there, and I became the very first female full

01:46:06.800 --> 01:46:10.119
-time undercover Virginia state trooper with

01:46:10.119 --> 01:46:11.659
the state police, and I did that for about a

01:46:11.659 --> 01:46:14.239
year. And in the time I was with the Virginia

01:46:14.239 --> 01:46:17.000
state police, it started in 1986, and I left

01:46:17.000 --> 01:46:21.199
in the middle of 1990 and became an ATF special

01:46:21.199 --> 01:46:23.819
agent where I stayed for the next 28 years in

01:46:23.819 --> 01:46:27.939
law enforcement. It goes from the academy, my

01:46:27.939 --> 01:46:31.720
rookie mistakes, high stakes decisions that I

01:46:31.720 --> 01:46:37.739
had to make in, you know, split second, and delves

01:46:37.739 --> 01:46:39.779
into the undercover world and how long I was

01:46:39.779 --> 01:46:44.020
under. I lived my very first six months in undercover.

01:46:44.199 --> 01:46:46.619
I got a brand new name, date of birth, social

01:46:46.619 --> 01:46:49.220
security number, everything, a car, undercover

01:46:49.220 --> 01:46:52.159
apartment, and a housing project. Worked with

01:46:52.159 --> 01:46:54.539
another female undercover from a city department.

01:46:54.920 --> 01:46:59.880
She was fresh out of the academy. And they just

01:46:59.880 --> 01:47:03.000
told us if the girls play it safe, they should

01:47:03.000 --> 01:47:07.060
be okay. And we worked with gangs, lots of drugs,

01:47:07.220 --> 01:47:12.340
lots of guns, violence, homicide, overdoses,

01:47:12.340 --> 01:47:15.760
things, problems. And we were around it all the

01:47:15.760 --> 01:47:20.359
time. It was like a 24 -7, 365. And we had a

01:47:20.359 --> 01:47:23.039
topside agent. She had a topside detective, and

01:47:23.039 --> 01:47:25.399
I had a topside agent that looked after me, Charlie.

01:47:25.939 --> 01:47:29.920
And that was it. And we had our body wires and

01:47:29.920 --> 01:47:32.859
wire up, and then we went out. Originally, we

01:47:32.859 --> 01:47:34.739
tried to work together. They finally went to

01:47:34.739 --> 01:47:36.359
split up because we just kept getting asked to

01:47:36.359 --> 01:47:38.760
parties and dates, and that's not working with

01:47:38.760 --> 01:47:41.819
drugs. So we split it up. We started working.

01:47:41.880 --> 01:47:43.520
We started working with more informants, started

01:47:43.520 --> 01:47:46.140
meeting a lot more dealers, and we were just

01:47:46.140 --> 01:47:49.319
buying drugs all over. Most of Shenandoah Valley,

01:47:49.439 --> 01:47:52.680
actually, from Stanton, Augusta County, up into

01:47:52.680 --> 01:47:55.300
Harrisonburg, over to Charlottesville, up on

01:47:55.300 --> 01:47:58.659
Afton Mountain, Stewart's Draft, all those regions,

01:47:58.739 --> 01:48:02.920
all that area. And we bought a lot of dope from

01:48:02.920 --> 01:48:05.319
a lot of people. And at the time, they said it

01:48:05.319 --> 01:48:08.020
was the largest drug bust, at least in central

01:48:08.020 --> 01:48:10.340
Virginia, if not the largest drug bust in Virginia

01:48:10.340 --> 01:48:13.460
at that particular time. I bought drugs from

01:48:13.460 --> 01:48:16.720
Mennonites. out on the farm uh so yeah you can

01:48:16.720 --> 01:48:19.800
buy drugs from a lot of people uh saw a lot of

01:48:19.800 --> 01:48:21.800
things and it was not the lifestyle that i had

01:48:21.800 --> 01:48:23.380
grown up in it was not the lifestyle she had

01:48:23.380 --> 01:48:27.619
grown up in so it was a daily lesson to find

01:48:27.619 --> 01:48:29.199
out what it's like to go full -time undercover

01:48:29.199 --> 01:48:35.159
and become somebody else but That's the book.

01:48:35.300 --> 01:48:39.500
And like I said, I do like to pay homage to the

01:48:39.500 --> 01:48:42.479
law enforcement people that were killed or died

01:48:42.479 --> 01:48:46.479
in the line of duty with my book as well. That

01:48:46.479 --> 01:48:49.960
sounds amazing. I haven't really touched on this,

01:48:50.000 --> 01:48:52.279
but just before we progress to the closing questions,

01:48:52.600 --> 01:48:56.760
so many of us in the first responder professions,

01:48:57.079 --> 01:49:00.500
we have... a lot of times challenging early lives,

01:49:00.560 --> 01:49:02.739
and then we find ourselves in uniform. And now,

01:49:02.779 --> 01:49:05.439
you know, in my profession, we were mainly seeing

01:49:05.439 --> 01:49:08.199
horrendous things, you know, in undercover is

01:49:08.199 --> 01:49:10.079
another entire level of stress, for example,

01:49:10.079 --> 01:49:13.779
what were the lowest points that you got throughout

01:49:13.779 --> 01:49:16.520
your career? And then what were the tools that

01:49:16.520 --> 01:49:18.819
helped you, you know, climb out of that hole

01:49:18.819 --> 01:49:23.100
if you have one? In my law enforcement career,

01:49:23.220 --> 01:49:28.289
and most all of it, only to the very end. And

01:49:28.289 --> 01:49:30.550
by that time I wasn't doing undercover to the

01:49:30.550 --> 01:49:37.189
very end. But, or I spent my very last three

01:49:37.189 --> 01:49:40.609
years teaching at the academy. So it took me

01:49:40.609 --> 01:49:42.649
off the street and away from stuff, teaching

01:49:42.649 --> 01:49:49.109
the arson training program. There weren't a lot

01:49:49.109 --> 01:49:51.949
of things. You saw it, moved on, kept on. So

01:49:51.949 --> 01:49:54.130
if you worked a fatality accident, if you were

01:49:54.130 --> 01:49:56.289
there and somebody died and you, were there,

01:49:56.310 --> 01:49:57.949
and you were dealing with it, and trying to save

01:49:57.949 --> 01:50:01.310
them, you got to go, because when you get all

01:50:01.310 --> 01:50:03.409
that done, get all that stuff handled, if you're

01:50:03.409 --> 01:50:05.109
still on shift, you may have to work another

01:50:05.109 --> 01:50:07.449
fatality, so just move on, got things to do,

01:50:07.550 --> 01:50:11.569
it's, I think they, you know, what's important

01:50:11.569 --> 01:50:14.250
now, so stay focused right here, what's important

01:50:14.250 --> 01:50:15.890
now, got to do it, got to do it, try to stay

01:50:15.890 --> 01:50:17.949
focused, because I got to work tomorrow, because

01:50:17.949 --> 01:50:19.789
tomorrow, I may have to work another fatality

01:50:19.789 --> 01:50:22.489
accident, or I may get shot at tomorrow, or somebody

01:50:22.489 --> 01:50:25.319
may shoot me tomorrow, I got things to do. what's

01:50:25.319 --> 01:50:27.960
important now, just keep going. So there wasn't

01:50:27.960 --> 01:50:30.960
any time to sit down and have a, that was no

01:50:30.960 --> 01:50:34.659
hugs. Nobody hugged. It was just, we didn't hug.

01:50:35.800 --> 01:50:39.500
We didn't talk about it. You moved on. If you

01:50:39.500 --> 01:50:41.479
did find somebody to talk to about it, you talked

01:50:41.479 --> 01:50:44.319
about it just a little bit, just to kind of get

01:50:44.319 --> 01:50:48.720
it out there and just move on. Basically just

01:50:48.720 --> 01:50:54.250
you, I guess the walk it off phrase. And so,

01:50:54.390 --> 01:50:57.050
yeah, I can see how people did turn to things

01:50:57.050 --> 01:51:00.250
like alcohol or even drugs or whatever else might

01:51:00.250 --> 01:51:04.850
have because the more that builds up. I think

01:51:04.850 --> 01:51:07.289
I dealt with it pretty well for the most part.

01:51:08.029 --> 01:51:10.710
I'm sure I had my issues of getting mad or getting

01:51:10.710 --> 01:51:13.430
angry about things and not quite sure why I would

01:51:13.430 --> 01:51:18.329
snap or why I'd get mad. But that was it. I wasn't

01:51:18.329 --> 01:51:22.649
very good at relationships, I think. On my personal

01:51:22.649 --> 01:51:25.329
level, not with friends, lots of friends, but

01:51:25.329 --> 01:51:29.090
to keep a romantic relationship going, I am sure

01:51:29.090 --> 01:51:31.329
I was definitely a good 50 % of the problem.

01:51:31.810 --> 01:51:34.310
If I'm going to take half credit, but I was probably

01:51:34.310 --> 01:51:38.550
a little bit more than that. And it just because

01:51:38.550 --> 01:51:44.829
you get used to your ways and doing and not everybody's

01:51:44.829 --> 01:51:46.609
going to handle somebody who's been in law enforcement

01:51:46.609 --> 01:51:48.689
or who's running out the door to go do undercover

01:51:48.689 --> 01:51:53.100
or. as I had a tendency to do, and I don't regret

01:51:53.100 --> 01:51:56.619
putting the job first a lot of times, pretty

01:51:56.619 --> 01:52:00.399
much all the time. You just do, and it just becomes

01:52:00.399 --> 01:52:05.699
a way of life. Last summer I got diagnosed PTSD,

01:52:06.159 --> 01:52:10.819
so I said, so what's next? Nobody just said,

01:52:10.880 --> 01:52:12.439
hey, we've got a magic pill for you, because

01:52:12.439 --> 01:52:16.880
I didn't want a magic pill anyway. But that's

01:52:16.880 --> 01:52:19.380
it. Okay, you might want to find somebody to

01:52:19.380 --> 01:52:25.489
talk to. So, all right. Sure, whatever. No, it

01:52:25.489 --> 01:52:28.130
wasn't one of those things. You just like, oh,

01:52:28.250 --> 01:52:32.090
well, look, okay. You do have some issues with

01:52:32.090 --> 01:52:37.229
PTSD and that's it. Nobody's saying, hey, whatever,

01:52:37.350 --> 01:52:41.510
we're going to fix you. There's no that. They

01:52:41.510 --> 01:52:45.590
would, that comes back to World Trade Center,

01:52:45.670 --> 01:52:49.329
Pentagon work, according to them. And I was like,

01:52:50.199 --> 01:52:53.920
I saw so much worse. I mean, I saw, that was

01:52:53.920 --> 01:52:59.779
horrid what we saw. But over a career, you see

01:52:59.779 --> 01:53:04.699
so much so often. You compartmentalize every

01:53:04.699 --> 01:53:07.439
piece of it. And I think we all did. I think

01:53:07.439 --> 01:53:10.819
everybody does. And I don't think I meant to

01:53:10.819 --> 01:53:14.319
say so much worse. It's just, you just saw and

01:53:14.319 --> 01:53:17.989
you just keep seeing over and over. There's a

01:53:17.989 --> 01:53:19.909
lot of dreadful things I saw and dealt with.

01:53:23.050 --> 01:53:29.310
I think you find a way to forgive yourself. Because

01:53:29.310 --> 01:53:32.289
most of those things, I did everything I possibly

01:53:32.289 --> 01:53:37.670
could for people or survivors. So I don't think

01:53:37.670 --> 01:53:42.149
I did anything, nothing on my part. And I don't

01:53:42.149 --> 01:53:44.949
call it survivor guilt, but maybe you sometimes

01:53:44.949 --> 01:53:47.500
just have that. regret that you weren't able

01:53:47.500 --> 01:53:51.600
to stop that or to prevent that or if you'd just

01:53:51.600 --> 01:53:54.939
been two minutes faster getting there um if you'd

01:53:54.939 --> 01:54:01.359
just been you know if something if this had happened

01:54:01.359 --> 01:54:03.539
then this might have happened you know and at

01:54:03.539 --> 01:54:05.140
some point you have to realize you don't have

01:54:05.140 --> 01:54:09.779
any control over that and uh that And that's

01:54:09.779 --> 01:54:11.380
one of those things you have to rationalize with

01:54:11.380 --> 01:54:13.359
and you have to sort it out in your head. So,

01:54:13.399 --> 01:54:15.279
yeah, the book got to be cathartic on some of

01:54:15.279 --> 01:54:17.520
those things because the what -ifs, you can what

01:54:17.520 --> 01:54:20.640
-if yourself into the ground. And that's not

01:54:20.640 --> 01:54:22.119
going to fix anything. It's not going to change

01:54:22.119 --> 01:54:25.699
the past. Like we talked about, you want to fix

01:54:25.699 --> 01:54:28.560
the drug issues and the drug war or anything

01:54:28.560 --> 01:54:30.859
else, we've got to figure out what we did really,

01:54:30.939 --> 01:54:32.939
really good and what we did really, really bad

01:54:32.939 --> 01:54:41.189
and then go for the good stuff. I could have

01:54:41.189 --> 01:54:44.189
been at a scene or something five minutes faster,

01:54:44.350 --> 01:54:48.270
but could I? Or would it have been a worse wreck

01:54:48.270 --> 01:54:51.989
out there because I was going that much faster?

01:54:53.210 --> 01:54:56.510
We'll never know. Yeah. I think that there's

01:54:56.510 --> 01:55:00.430
the PTSD, obviously, which is the diagnosis of

01:55:00.430 --> 01:55:02.130
certain symptoms. But I think a lot of us also

01:55:02.130 --> 01:55:04.470
suffer from moral injury, which is exactly that.

01:55:04.609 --> 01:55:08.079
I was talking yesterday. to uh one of our guests

01:55:08.079 --> 01:55:11.840
and i never had a cardiac arrest safe in 14 years

01:55:11.840 --> 01:55:14.739
and it i hope it wasn't because i'm a shitty

01:55:14.739 --> 01:55:17.260
paramedic it was just i always got that kind

01:55:17.260 --> 01:55:19.760
of patient the one that you know it exploded

01:55:19.760 --> 01:55:23.180
internally or whatever happened and so it's the

01:55:23.180 --> 01:55:26.119
same thing it's like well what what did i do

01:55:26.119 --> 01:55:28.199
wrong i did i did the compressions right i did

01:55:28.199 --> 01:55:30.060
the you know the cardio version i did i pushed

01:55:30.060 --> 01:55:32.909
the drugs whatever the thing was but it's It's

01:55:32.909 --> 01:55:34.630
because when we're in school and you said, well,

01:55:34.649 --> 01:55:37.189
if you do A, B and C, then, you know, you'll

01:55:37.189 --> 01:55:38.930
stop the person. They'll be in handcuffs in your

01:55:38.930 --> 01:55:40.949
world or they'll wake up and then they'll bring

01:55:40.949 --> 01:55:42.930
the cake to the station the next week. But that's

01:55:42.930 --> 01:55:45.949
not how it works. We're not God. We're just trying

01:55:45.949 --> 01:55:48.750
to do our best. And, you know, if that is enough

01:55:48.750 --> 01:55:50.930
one day, then you will save that person. If it's

01:55:50.930 --> 01:55:53.689
still not enough, then at least the family will

01:55:53.689 --> 01:55:55.789
know that you did everything you could to try

01:55:55.789 --> 01:55:57.949
and get to that person and try and pull that

01:55:57.949 --> 01:56:01.479
person back from death's door. I don't think

01:56:01.479 --> 01:56:03.680
the average people realize that kind of weight

01:56:03.680 --> 01:56:05.840
on the first responder's shoulders that, you

01:56:05.840 --> 01:56:08.380
know, we're left feeling like we weren't enough,

01:56:08.479 --> 01:56:11.720
like we failed and we didn't fail. Yeah. No,

01:56:11.840 --> 01:56:13.920
you didn't. You just have to find that way to

01:56:13.920 --> 01:56:16.439
forgive yourself for that. And I think the longest

01:56:16.439 --> 01:56:18.680
I was functioning, one of the things I heard

01:56:18.680 --> 01:56:21.039
someone talk about, if I ever find this guy,

01:56:21.100 --> 01:56:22.760
I'm going to make sure that you get to talk to

01:56:22.760 --> 01:56:25.460
him if you haven't. He was being interviewed.

01:56:27.180 --> 01:56:29.380
I cannot remember. Maybe it was Sean Ryan, but

01:56:29.380 --> 01:56:31.460
anyway, being interviewed by him, but I'm not

01:56:31.460 --> 01:56:34.960
positive. I want to say he was a SEAL or Delta

01:56:34.960 --> 01:56:36.739
Force or something, but he was talking about

01:56:36.739 --> 01:56:39.619
the fact that a friend had told him, and of course

01:56:39.619 --> 01:56:44.939
it resonated with me perfectly, lack of traumatic

01:56:44.939 --> 01:56:49.300
stress. It's lack. Post -traumatic stress, yes.

01:56:49.479 --> 01:56:53.039
No, it's lack of traumatic stress. I spent 32

01:56:53.039 --> 01:56:55.300
years, as they called it, running and gunning,

01:56:55.300 --> 01:56:58.100
gun and dope, all of that stuff, working undercover,

01:56:58.439 --> 01:57:03.979
high -speed chases, getting to accidents, bad

01:57:03.979 --> 01:57:06.560
timing, I guess, getting there just before the

01:57:06.560 --> 01:57:09.159
medical crew gets there, things of that nature.

01:57:09.220 --> 01:57:12.359
But then beyond that, going to bombings, going

01:57:12.359 --> 01:57:16.680
to arsons, seeing the aftermath of some really

01:57:16.680 --> 01:57:22.229
horrific things. Just going, answering the phone

01:57:22.229 --> 01:57:26.789
at 3 a .m., getting up and going. And I know

01:57:26.789 --> 01:57:28.350
lots of people who didn't because they were my

01:57:28.350 --> 01:57:29.970
friends and we all did the same kind of work.

01:57:30.069 --> 01:57:33.449
So it's not just me. But that adrenaline pump,

01:57:33.689 --> 01:57:35.630
I told you that was my addiction, was adrenaline.

01:57:37.710 --> 01:57:41.670
So the adrenaline thing, when that goes away,

01:57:41.869 --> 01:57:45.510
when you don't have that, I was programmed to

01:57:45.510 --> 01:57:47.550
what's important now, to deal with stress, to

01:57:47.550 --> 01:57:52.710
stay focused, to stay in control. I got used

01:57:52.710 --> 01:57:54.569
to that. That's how I function day to day to

01:57:54.569 --> 01:57:57.689
day. And, you know, something happened. You had

01:57:57.689 --> 01:57:59.109
to change gears. I was like, okay, we're going

01:57:59.109 --> 01:58:01.529
to change gears. I'm flexible. Let's move. Let's

01:58:01.529 --> 01:58:03.489
do it. Okay. Yeah, we got to go do that. You

01:58:03.489 --> 01:58:05.850
know, five minutes before we were going to go

01:58:05.850 --> 01:58:07.649
get something to eat, but we're not going to

01:58:07.649 --> 01:58:10.710
do that now because this has happened and there's

01:58:10.710 --> 01:58:13.170
a shooting and we need to go to the scene because

01:58:13.170 --> 01:58:15.649
there's, you know, all kinds of issues going

01:58:15.649 --> 01:58:18.310
on. You just switch. You just switch right away.

01:58:19.050 --> 01:58:25.729
So it made sense, lack of stress disorder. And

01:58:25.729 --> 01:58:29.510
the moment I retired, it was like, what did you

01:58:29.510 --> 01:58:32.289
do? I said, recliner and remote control. And

01:58:32.289 --> 01:58:34.289
I got little buttons on the side of my recliner

01:58:34.289 --> 01:58:36.210
so I don't even have to do it manually. I can

01:58:36.210 --> 01:58:39.090
just touch them and like, you know, I said, what

01:58:39.090 --> 01:58:41.189
do you do tomorrow? I said that too. So writing

01:58:41.189 --> 01:58:45.529
the book gave me that chance to. go back, redo

01:58:45.529 --> 01:58:48.510
things, get back in touch with some folks, think

01:58:48.510 --> 01:58:52.569
on some stuff that went on, and put the perspective

01:58:52.569 --> 01:58:55.090
back where I maybe had just compartmentalized

01:58:55.090 --> 01:58:59.489
it and tried to move on from it and revisit with

01:58:59.489 --> 01:59:04.310
that. And if I need adrenaline now, I have grandchildren

01:59:04.310 --> 01:59:07.310
that are teenagers, and that in itself should

01:59:07.310 --> 01:59:10.149
probably be enough, but it's not, you know, knowing

01:59:10.149 --> 01:59:12.600
that two of them are now driving. Should be maybe

01:59:12.600 --> 01:59:14.779
enough, but it's not. There's a little bit more.

01:59:14.819 --> 01:59:17.479
It's like, what else is it? I took my grandson

01:59:17.479 --> 01:59:20.960
and we went to that iFly thing and did the indoor

01:59:20.960 --> 01:59:23.579
air flying thing. And that was great. My husband

01:59:23.579 --> 01:59:26.739
took me to the Daytona racetrack and I got to

01:59:26.739 --> 01:59:30.119
go around the track at 150. And I think, well,

01:59:30.220 --> 01:59:32.100
if I ever get to be wealthy, I'm going to go

01:59:32.100 --> 01:59:36.510
do that all the time. I loved it. I haven't ridden,

01:59:36.510 --> 01:59:38.630
I used to ride horses and I had horses for a

01:59:38.630 --> 01:59:40.510
very long time. I have not ridden horses in a

01:59:40.510 --> 01:59:42.750
while, but it has occurred to me that perhaps

01:59:42.750 --> 01:59:46.109
I need to go and get on a horse again and do

01:59:46.109 --> 01:59:49.310
that a little bit more. I have a motorcycle.

01:59:49.390 --> 01:59:52.989
I've been riding motorcycles on my own at least

01:59:52.989 --> 01:59:55.789
since 2004. I used to ride on the back. Then

01:59:55.789 --> 01:59:57.590
I got my own and I don't need to ride on the

01:59:57.590 --> 02:00:00.609
back anymore. And I love that. And I tell people,

02:00:00.670 --> 02:00:03.090
yes, I do ride helmetless and helmetless in states

02:00:03.090 --> 02:00:06.630
that don't require it. bad for me but then i'm

02:00:06.630 --> 02:00:10.970
like i don't know i just i like it um we've ridden

02:00:10.970 --> 02:00:14.829
most of the u .s a lot of canada most all i can't

02:00:14.829 --> 02:00:17.489
say most all of canada but most all the areas

02:00:17.489 --> 02:00:19.729
you can get to in canada we've ridden on bikes

02:00:19.729 --> 02:00:21.949
except for the far west coast i need to do all

02:00:21.949 --> 02:00:25.510
of that um i love that i love traveling either

02:00:25.510 --> 02:00:28.430
for work or just for pleasure to just go and

02:00:28.430 --> 02:00:31.420
meet people and eat different foods and uh realize

02:00:31.420 --> 02:00:34.159
that, oh, I shouldn't have eaten that. I'm okay

02:00:34.159 --> 02:00:35.819
with that, too. It's a little bit of adrenaline.

02:00:37.060 --> 02:00:40.060
But I do like an adrenaline rush, and it makes

02:00:40.060 --> 02:00:43.399
my day. And it gets me past whatever might be

02:00:43.399 --> 02:00:45.119
going on in my head if I get to thinking about

02:00:45.119 --> 02:00:48.819
things too much or get too much melancholy going

02:00:48.819 --> 02:00:53.140
on. I try to shake that off and move on, go have

02:00:53.140 --> 02:00:58.109
some fun. And maybe what I need is one of those

02:00:58.109 --> 02:00:59.789
little mini bike things that the kids are riding

02:00:59.789 --> 02:01:02.109
on the streets nowadays. Just something for me

02:01:02.109 --> 02:01:05.329
to fall off of, I guess. But maybe that would

02:01:05.329 --> 02:01:07.310
do it too. I think the horse riding as well.

02:01:07.390 --> 02:01:10.170
I mean, the equine therapy that we know works

02:01:10.170 --> 02:01:12.810
as well. So not only just the act of horse riding,

02:01:12.890 --> 02:01:15.449
but that relationship. And they're a mirror to

02:01:15.449 --> 02:01:17.250
your soul. So you're kind of seeing, well, how

02:01:17.250 --> 02:01:21.130
am I really doing now? They have a lot of equine

02:01:21.130 --> 02:01:23.470
therapy programs that I really like. Blue Mountain.

02:01:24.090 --> 02:01:27.350
in abingdon virginia has got a fantastic bunch

02:01:27.350 --> 02:01:31.130
of people working their equine program and then

02:01:31.130 --> 02:01:34.109
i just found out here a few months ago that a

02:01:34.109 --> 02:01:35.850
good friend of mine that i did martial arts with

02:01:35.850 --> 02:01:40.989
back in the day thor he is running a huge equine

02:01:40.989 --> 02:01:44.859
therapy program A lot of veterans, but a lot

02:01:44.859 --> 02:01:47.560
of other people up in the Connecticut area and

02:01:47.560 --> 02:01:52.079
having super success with it. And it's for everybody.

02:01:52.380 --> 02:01:56.819
I mean, it's for people who are physically challenged.

02:01:57.199 --> 02:02:01.000
It is for people who are having depression or

02:02:01.000 --> 02:02:04.300
mental health issues. It's just amazing what

02:02:04.300 --> 02:02:06.220
horses can do for you. I know I used to come

02:02:06.220 --> 02:02:08.380
home and it'd be night and I'd go up to the barn

02:02:08.380 --> 02:02:11.319
and just rubbing on the horses and petting them

02:02:11.319 --> 02:02:12.939
and standing there with them and just breathing.

02:02:13.359 --> 02:02:17.100
Horses smell good. They just do. And just having

02:02:17.100 --> 02:02:18.659
that. Of course, my dog was always with me, but

02:02:18.659 --> 02:02:20.260
I'd sit up at the barn with him in the middle

02:02:20.260 --> 02:02:23.520
of the night, you know, just grooming them and

02:02:23.520 --> 02:02:25.020
just being there with them for a little bit.

02:02:25.079 --> 02:02:27.899
And sometimes going out and riding at night as

02:02:27.899 --> 02:02:29.899
well. And did that, well, did that more than

02:02:29.899 --> 02:02:33.140
once, I'm sure. But it always felt good. Cleaning

02:02:33.140 --> 02:02:35.659
the saddle made me feel good. It's just something

02:02:35.659 --> 02:02:39.399
about just cleaning the saddle. Yeah, I grew

02:02:39.399 --> 02:02:41.279
up on a farm and that was a veterinary surgeon.

02:02:41.359 --> 02:02:43.420
So we had we had usually other people's horses.

02:02:43.500 --> 02:02:45.979
But yeah, that was that was something I was around

02:02:45.979 --> 02:02:48.560
my whole my whole childhood. Well, for people

02:02:48.560 --> 02:02:51.020
listening, firstly, let's go to the book. Where

02:02:51.020 --> 02:02:55.600
can they find the book? OK, the book is at Amazon

02:02:55.600 --> 02:02:58.500
or. All the online ordering places. If you like

02:02:58.500 --> 02:03:01.319
to order books from Walmart, Amazon, Target,

02:03:01.640 --> 02:03:06.619
Barnes & Noble, or if you go and you use the

02:03:06.619 --> 02:03:08.579
name of the book, The Becoming Fire, Chasing

02:03:08.579 --> 02:03:13.159
the Passion, To Protect, Serve, Love, True Crime

02:03:13.159 --> 02:03:16.100
Memoir, and My Name, Jennifer Clark Esquire.

02:03:16.460 --> 02:03:19.680
And if you do that at your local retailer bookstore,

02:03:20.159 --> 02:03:24.920
it's distributed through IngramSpark, and you

02:03:24.920 --> 02:03:28.479
can get it that way. Um, and the other way to

02:03:28.479 --> 02:03:30.520
get it is you can go to my website, which is

02:03:30.520 --> 02:03:33.979
the www .jenniferclarkescue, like you see it

02:03:33.979 --> 02:03:36.840
on the screen there, .com. And you can order

02:03:36.840 --> 02:03:39.020
it from me. I'll autograph it for you, personalize

02:03:39.020 --> 02:03:41.180
it, throw in a couple of little, I think they

02:03:41.180 --> 02:03:44.119
call it swag. I got a couple of little items

02:03:44.119 --> 02:03:46.880
I toss in with it and I'll ship it to you personally.

02:03:47.860 --> 02:03:50.460
Got some great fans already. I've got someone

02:03:50.460 --> 02:03:53.039
from Australia, somebody from New Zealand. I've

02:03:53.039 --> 02:03:55.439
got a lady from Nova Scotia. We're texting quite

02:03:55.439 --> 02:03:58.020
a bit. So if you want to write me or text with

02:03:58.020 --> 02:04:00.619
me or find me on social media, I'm on pretty

02:04:00.619 --> 02:04:03.180
much everything from YouTube to I'm learning

02:04:03.180 --> 02:04:08.560
TikTok. I'm not good. I'm trying it. I'm on LinkedIn.

02:04:08.560 --> 02:04:11.119
I'm on places like that, Facebook. And you can

02:04:11.119 --> 02:04:15.340
find me fairly easily on those things. I'll try

02:04:15.340 --> 02:04:17.039
to answer your questions, and if you just want

02:04:17.039 --> 02:04:19.800
to troll me, I have a pretty good sense of humor.

02:04:19.880 --> 02:04:21.880
Other than that, I'm probably not going to respond

02:04:21.880 --> 02:04:26.619
for trolls. But other than that, I'm enjoying

02:04:26.619 --> 02:04:29.140
this. This is good therapy. It's been good for

02:04:29.140 --> 02:04:33.260
my PTSD, I guess. It's just good for—I'm enjoying

02:04:33.260 --> 02:04:35.239
seeing people and getting out and meeting people

02:04:35.239 --> 02:04:38.779
with the signings and stuff. That's been very

02:04:38.779 --> 02:04:40.760
rewarding, especially all these people want to

02:04:40.760 --> 02:04:43.159
come up and talk to me, and particularly young

02:04:43.159 --> 02:04:46.029
women. who are wanting to do something, not necessarily

02:04:46.029 --> 02:04:50.210
law enforcement, but do something that may have

02:04:50.210 --> 02:04:56.130
been previously viewed as more of a male career

02:04:56.130 --> 02:04:59.090
and stuff. I'm talking to people who are wanting

02:04:59.090 --> 02:05:03.949
to do paramedic -type work and a variety of things

02:05:03.949 --> 02:05:05.529
and all, and they're just coming up and thanking

02:05:05.529 --> 02:05:07.909
me, and I'm like, you don't have to thank me,

02:05:07.970 --> 02:05:10.329
but good luck to you, and I'm wishing them the

02:05:10.329 --> 02:05:13.569
best. Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you so

02:05:13.569 --> 02:05:16.090
much. We only dipped our toes into your actual

02:05:16.090 --> 02:05:17.729
career. So maybe down the road, we'll have to

02:05:17.729 --> 02:05:20.710
do a part two. But it was so important because

02:05:20.710 --> 02:05:22.470
these are actionable things that we talked about

02:05:22.470 --> 02:05:25.529
from the farming and the physical health to your

02:05:25.529 --> 02:05:28.109
very powerful perspective on the opioid crisis

02:05:28.109 --> 02:05:30.989
and decriminalization and all the things that

02:05:30.989 --> 02:05:33.630
we talked about. So I want to thank you so much

02:05:33.630 --> 02:05:35.670
for being so generous with your time and coming

02:05:35.670 --> 02:05:38.670
on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank

02:05:38.670 --> 02:05:41.010
you very much. I appreciate you, James, and wish

02:05:41.010 --> 02:05:41.609
you the best.