Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
mind -body -medicine practitioner and the founder
of Red Path Spiritual Healing Retreats, Dr. Andrea
Lucey. So in this conversation, we discuss a
host of topics from her childhood in the Andes,
the ancient healing of her native tribe, her
journey to America, training Marines, her own
powerful mental health story, discovering ayahuasca,
healing veterans and first responders, and so
much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen
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every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you... Dr. Andrea Lucey. Enjoy. Well, Dr.
Andrea, I want to start by saying two things.
Firstly, thank you to Angela and Tim for making
this connection from The Siren Project. And secondly,
I want to welcome you today on to the Behind
the Shield podcast. Well, thank you for the invitation.
It was a surprise. I don't usually like to do
these things, but you're doing a great job. That's
what Angela and Tim and I love those two and
I trust them. Here I am. So thank you for the
invitation, for considering me to speak with
you. Well, thank you for the trust. I mean, it
means a lot, truly. All right. Well, very first
question. Where on planet Earth are we finding
you today? Right now, I am in Puerto Vallarta,
Mexico. I arrived from Chile yesterday and I
was there for 10 days, no, 15 days visiting family.
But I came back yesterday to Puerto Vallarta.
That's where home is right now. Brilliant. Well,
let's start in Chile. Let's start at the very
beginning of your journey then. So tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. Sure. I'm glad you didn't ask
me what year I was born. That's our secret. That's
okay. Yeah, I was born in Chile. My family is
from the south of Chile, from a place called
Muchen, which is in the eighth region of Chile.
And I think I was about four years old when my
mom took me to the south of Chile, where she
was born, and left me with my grandparents. And
my dad left when I was very young, maybe two
years old. So she couldn't work with me being
so little. So she took me to the south of Chile,
left me with her mom and dad. And I stayed there
for a few years, pretty much until I was 10 years
old, I believe. And then I went back to Santiago
to live with my mom and to be educated in the
city. But the biggest impact, I guess. And why
that is related to what I do now is my upbringings
with my grandparents who were curanderos, they
were healers. They come from the native tradition
of the Mapuche tribe, which is Mapu means earth
and Che means people, which is people of the
earth. And we live in a small farm, no electricity,
no water, and live off the land. without any
distraction from the city and the, I guess, electronics.
And my grandparents were farmers, but at the
same time they were the healers of the small
community. So people would come and they would
do their thing, you know, using herbs. They didn't
use what we call psychedelic medicine, but they
did use the rituals and the natural medicine.
And they treated things like espanto, el susto,
or what is called the frightening of PTSD, or
they would call what else, so many affections.
It could be illness from what we call it from
the mind, or it could be actual physical illnesses.
And that was my normal. That's how I grew up.
That's the medicine that I knew. But then when
I moved to Santiago as a teenager, I didn't,
I miss so much being with my grandparents. But,
you know, I got wrapped up in the modern, I guess,
upbringings, schooling. Then I moved to the US
and then everything changed. So how much more
would you like me to tell you about my childhood?
Well, let's go back even further then. What is
the history within the tribe of the healing and
using some of these holistic... um you know healing
therapies because one of the things that's so
maddening at the moment is and i think now we're
opening our eyes but up until 10 years ago any
sort of holistic healing method chiropractic
acupuncture you know herbal medicine was was
um you know vilified by modern medicine a lot
of times and yet that's such an crazy arrogant
way of looking at it because it survived millennia.
So obviously there's something to it. So what
is the origin story of the healing in your tribe?
Well, I will have to say that the issue began
with the Spaniards conquering, discovering and
conquering the countries and imposing the Christians,
Catholic beliefs about all the rituals and ceremonies
the natives performed were evil. And so they
kind of went underground, and they resurfaced
in a way that was called syncretism, where some
part of the Catholic religion are mixed with
the native traditions. And in the native traditions,
specifically for the Mapuche tribe, it's a very
matriarchal society. where the assigned healer
of the tribe or the community is called machi,
and the machi is actually a female, always has,
always will. However, a male, physically male
figure can fulfill the role of the machi, but
they do dress with the traditional machi clothing,
the clothes. So it never... actually die off,
it went underground. And it was passed on from
generation to generation. However, with the colonization
and with that became the shaming of these practices.
And the natives separated from the mestizos,
which is the mix with the Spaniards and Europeans.
As you know, Chile and Argentina and all these
South American countries, we have a lot of migration.
Not only the original colonizers from Europe,
Spain. But also later on, we have a lot of German,
French, and Italian immigrants. So people in
society in general that were mixed with these
Europeans look down to the pure -blood natives.
And I think this happens in all societies right
around the world. So that was a major reason
for this native tradition to actually do go underground
and to be only practiced in the small community.
they never spoke about their native roots, although
my grandmother used to speak Mapuntungun, which
is their original language, which is the Mapuche
language. But even now in my own family, there
is such a huge distinction between the ones that
are mixed and the ones that are more pure blood,
pure breath. And there is a sense of like, oh,
those are Indian, those are Mapuches. And that
comes from that conditioning from there. The
migration, the immigrants into our countries
and feeling like the natives are savages and
they're not worthy of looking into what they
have to say and their beautiful wisdom. So my
grandparents wrote that line of really incorporating
some of those rituals that come from the Mapuche
lineage. But at the same time, the syncretism
was present when they involved the Catholic prayers
and rituals as well. So it's a really thin line.
Now, in Chile, there is a clear distinction.
Mapuche and Mapuche medicine, they are present
in most of the hospitals in Chile. Oh, really?
Yes, where they have the option to actually have
the traditional biomedical, allopathic. method
of medicine, but they also have, especially in
communities that are very close to the Mapuches,
which is the eighth, ninth region in the south
of Chile, but also even in Santiago, the capital,
there's an abject location where they can, if
they feel and they know, we don't have Mapuche
roots, unless you were absolutely born in Europe,
you have Mapuche roots. Now, it doesn't matter
what percentage, right? But if you feel like
you want to be treated by a machi, by that kind
of medicine, then you can do that. So it's an
incorporation and it's an appreciation of a relation
of this medicine, this ancient medicine. I think
we're waking up to that fact that it's important
to understand that when we work with nature,
we reconnect not only with nature, but with ourselves,
that we are part of it. And it is important that
process in the healing process. You mentioned
about immigrants coming from all over Europe.
And one of the things people think of when they
think of South America and Germany is some of
the Nazis fleeing after World War II. But I would
imagine that, you know, it's not all that, that
there were just people from Germany fleeing as
well from Poland, etc. So what did you see as
far as generationally, as far as that part kind
of during post -World War II and the immigration
from Europe then? I can't remember exactly the
date, but it was in the late 1800s, I think 1890,
I'm not sure. And one of the presidents of Chile
allowed European immigrants to settle in the
very south of Chile, which I believe it was in
the Patagonia. And these settlers, they were
given this large amount of land, and they were
actually... They were farmers. But they grew
sheep, cattle. And actually, that area of Chile
was populated by native Chileans. And they were
exterminated by the settlers because the natives
never believed that the land belonged to them.
They are part of the land. Therefore, they take
care of it. But then the settlers that were...
Given these pieces of land, they travel from
Europe, and they have these thousands of acres
to grow and to raise sheep and lambs, and they
needed to get rid of the natives because the
natives were against, obviously, what they were
doing. So not only from that history, other settlers
and other... not only Germans and Polish, like
you say, and Italian and other. And remember
also that Chile, before the Panama Canal, there
was no other ways to actually go up to the other
side of Latin America. You have to go all the
way down to Chile. So they stopped in Chile in
two ports that were very important. So some of
those merchants, they stay there. And that's
how we become kind of hybrid because they stay
in Chile. I'm not sure if I answered the question.
No, no, you did. Absolutely. Well, I want to
go back to, you mentioned that your father left
when you were two, your mother left you with
your grandparents for quite a long time. Knowing,
as we will get into later in this conversation,
that childhood trauma or childhood struggles
are a big factor of men and women in the military
and the first responder professions. You lean
into or did your grandparents kind of offer up
the healing for your mental, you know, your your
emotional well -being with the therapies that
they used? Being a child who in theory had lost
both parents for a while. You know, I think obviously
they what they did and how they raised me. had
a huge impact in my upbringing. I was always
a very introspective, introverted child. And
when I went back with my mom to Santiago, it
was really difficult for me to reinsert myself
into, well, actually insert, not reinsert, myself
into the society and to actually, you know, see
what is out there. There are cars, there is electricity,
there are telephones and TVs and radios, none
of that. I didn't grow up with none of that.
For me, it was just being in nature, playing
with animals, climbing trees, very naive. So
it was a really cultural shock for me to go back
to the city. And at the same time, going back
to my mom, that I was a single mom. who works
pretty much during her seven, I was by myself
day and night. And it was really, I mean, I can
say now I can look back and say, well, that was
difficult. But back then I didn't know any better.
This is the way it is to live in a small room
full of, you know, cracks in the ceiling and
the walls and sharing one bathroom with six or
seven different families. To me, that was the
normal. That was normal. And in just one room
with one bed and maybe a little stove to cook,
that was normal for me. I thought everybody lived
like that in Santiago. Then obviously growing
up and becoming a teenager, my mom was very,
how do you say? She didn't want me to be on the
street. So I would stay home and I really didn't
have any social life other than going from home
to school. So I immersed myself in books, just
reading books and writing and just being very
introspective. So I didn't realize until I finished
high school when I was 16 or 17 that there was
a big war out there where people would go to
parties, people would have TVs, people would
have radios, would have all these amenities that
I wasn't aware of. And it was such a shock for
me. And I wanted all that, but at the same time,
we couldn't have it because we didn't have any
money. That's why she took me to my grandparents
in the first place because she couldn't deal
with... having a child. And back in those days,
you know, being a single mom, my mom and dad
never got married. So being a single mom for
her was ostracizing and society looked down upon
her. So it was difficult. I guess if you look
back now, it was difficult. But that actually
paved the way for me to my being introspective.
And I'm very introverted, actually. Yeah. So
how did that love of books end up sending you
to the US? Actually, no, it wasn't the love for
a book. It was the love for a guy. Oh, there
we go. Me too. Not a guy, though, a woman. It
will be okay. So it was the love for another
human being, actually. I met this guy in... Actually,
I was doing pretty well since I finished high
school, 16, 17 years old. We didn't have money
to go to college, but I did go to school to become
a nurse. So I was pretty young. But anyways,
I was doing okay financially. I was taking my
mom out of the place where we were living together.
We moved probably between the age of 10 to 20.
We moved 10 times, 11 times. Because we couldn't
pay the rent. So in the middle of the night,
my mom would say, great time to go. And we'd
pick up our bed and little belongings, put it
in a little car, and let's go and move to another
place. But I was doing well. Money -wise, I was
doing really well. And I met a guy who was American.
And we started dating. And, you know, the next
is history. I ended up going to the United States.
And that was another cultural shock for me because
I was very still. shelter by the Chilean society
and going to, actually, we went to North Carolina.
And he was a Marine, of course. And it didn't
work out. It wasn't exactly what I thought. Obviously,
I had no idea about the American culture and
society. I didn't have any clue about the ways
of living. It was so different, the cultural
shock. really rocked the relationship and we
just didn't stay together. However, I was really
embarrassed to go back to Chile and felt like
a failure. I was pretty young. So I decided that
I was going to stay in the U .S. and suck it
up and become, you know, an immigrant and do
whatever I had to do to survive, which was pretty
fun, actually, because I started working in a
donut shop. It wasn't Daylight Donut. It was
another one. I can't remember the name of it.
But anyway, I was working in the back of this
donut shop. washing dishes. And since then, I
can't eat any donuts. I can't think of a more
American place to start working than a donut
shop. I know, I know. I was in the back washing,
you know, the trays and I ate the smell. But
anyways, and after that, I got another job cleaning
rooms in a local hotel. But all this happened
within 10 months of me being in the US, so I
didn't speak any English. And I have to say this
is kind of funny. I learned English by watching
TV, MTV. What else could I do? I was at home
alone. I didn't speak English. What can I do?
So I watched MTV and I was pretty young. So be
this and bad head. Those two were my English
teachers. And then the second people that actually
taught me English were the Marines because I
was right outside Marine Corps Base. And I started
working on base in a little laundromat with a
Mexican guy who actually gave me a job there.
And then I started going to the gym and learning
English from the Marines. So in my in -between
divas and bad hands, the Marines were kind of
English I spoke. Interesting mix. Profanity and
Cornholio. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I learned English
pretty much within, I will say, within 10 months.
But little by little, I went stepping up, I guess,
into that, you call, the American dream of...
And that's how I got involved with the Marines.
I was working in the laundromat on base and I
was working out at the gym. And somebody told
me, hey, you look great because I used to do
aerobics for myself. And they told me, why don't
you work here at the gym? So I did. And that's
how my career began with working in a Marine
Corps base, which then, you know, step by step,
I move up. very quickly so in the system that's
amazing because i thought you went through the
academic route and then found yourself in the
military but it was the reverse so i know you
have a doctorate in mind -body medicine so talk
to me about what that even looks like oh my god
so while i was working actually i i went to school
So I was doing both things. I was working all
day, and then I started going to school at night.
So I began with psychology, then I moved from
psychology to anthropology. From anthropology,
I went to do a master at the University of Colorado.
No, sorry, University of North Carolina in Wilmington.
University of Colorado came later. And I was
always very interested in working with... with
people that I was driven to, people that had
trauma. But I approached that from the beginning
from a different perspective, from the physical
fitness. So it was physical wellness. But then
I transitioned back to the mind -body medicine,
which is understanding the connection of... If
you have something going on, emotional and psychological,
how that's going to have an impact in your physical
body and vice versa. So understanding that interaction
and how to approach it, how to work with that
to work with the symptoms, but without medication.
So it will be through movement, through nutrition,
supplementation, and different techniques, like
biofeedback, neurofeedback. It was a career,
actually, that it involves so much of what I
have been trained already before, actually, I
went into my doctorate, that everything that
I have learned working and living among the military
base and in my education was pretty much everything
that I was learning in my doctorate. Because
I truly believe that now my personal path at
this point. resurface of my personal traumas
and experiences as a child resurface and that
was the catalyst for me to understand that trauma
it is something that you can't heal unless you
involve the spiritual processes you can cure
a disease but you can't heal a disease so and
this is a disease of the soul It was my grandparent
who called the susto, the frightening, or soul
fragmentation, or soul loss. So that is when
I understood, because my own symptoms actually
were resurfacing, my own symptoms with PTSD.
I had been diagnosed with PTSD, and I recognized
my symptoms when I was talking to the Marines
and sailors that I worked with. And that was
back in 2006. That was a long time ago. You talked
about going to the gym, but then you talked about
the truly holistic upbringing that you have with
your grandparents and that, you know, movement
was just, you know, running and climbing trees
and all those things. Was there a moment when
you realized that in like city society, because
you couldn't have the moment, there was a thing
called a gym that people would do for exercise
instead? Because that must have been really strange,
even the concept of a gym for someone who grows
up in the wilderness as you did. Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, of course. And yeah, there was a need,
but I wasn't aware back then. I wasn't aware
of my own trauma. I knew that I have gone through
some very traumatic events, but I have normalized
them. And also as, you know, my clientele, my
patients now, they're compartmentalized. You
know, tuck those little boxes away with memories
and say like, I'm not dealing with you or this
didn't happen to me or this actually didn't affect
me. What I was doing actually was my body needed
to release this trauma, this energy that was
stuck in my system. And that was probably why
intuitively I was trying to do exercise so much
because I did a lot of exercise. I became a fitness
instructor working with the Marines doing exercise
two or three times a day for them, for the units.
But it was a need for my body to release this
embattled, encapsulated energy from that intensive
trauma and loss that I had as a child. Because
it wasn't just the loss of my father, who first
is gone, and then he was killed. He was shot
in the head in a very traumatic way. And then
realizing how traumatic it was for me to leave
my family behind. And in between, growing up,
sustaining some physical abuse and some sexual
trauma as well, being molested by family members
and by people that were supposed to be friends
and caregivers. So all that was stuck in my body.
And somehow, intuitively, my body wanted to release
that. So I guess that is why my intuition guided
me into this path of physical fitness and wellness,
where it kind of emerged with later on what my
grandparents have taught me. And it was inside
of me already, knowing that holistic way of addressing.
these traumas is the only way to actually help
heal the spirit and the soul. What about yoga?
How did you find yourself getting into that?
That's kind of funny because I was working in
Camp Lejeune in 2006 is when I was heavily involved.
I was already escalated to be like a program
director of one of the Semper Fit programs in
Camp Lejeune. which is the mobile unit, going
out to do exercise for the units. And that's
when we realized that the guys were coming back
from war with invisible injuries that were very
difficult to treat. And so I was involved with
a program at the Naval Hospital called Back on
Track that treated... this PTSD mainly and TBI
with a holistic approach. And they actually asked
me if I can do something as I was running the
Semper Fit program in Camp Lejeune. They asked
me if I could do something with the Back on Track
program. And so I said, well, we can do meditation.
We can do yoga. We can do mixed martial arts.
We can modify it. We can do everything that the
program right now is offering. We can just...
um, change and tweak and, and, and, and make
sure that they, they, when the warriors, they're
able to do it, modify it in a sense. So that's
how I got involved. I, I started doing yoga out
of intuition and, and that was probably a few
months into it, but I got really involved into
it. I really love, but all of these sort of intuitions,
I have not, um, um, I guess. a certification
of formal training. But the Marines and sailors
were very responsive to yoga. And I was actually
incorporating not only yoga, but mixed martial
arts and boxing and meditation. And that's when
actually I met David Emerson and Bessel van der
Kolk. He was the director for the, what was it
called? Justice Resource Center in Boston, Massachusetts.
So actually, Bessel was visiting the Back on
Track program in Camp Lejeune. And he came and
took a class with all the other Marines and sailors
one morning. And I have no idea who Bessel was.
He wasn't as famous as he is now. He's going
to hate me for saying that. Sorry, Bessel. He
came to the class, and then he came up to me.
He said, hey, that's great what you're doing.
You know that we do some training at the center
in Boston. And I said, sure, I would love to
go and do some training for myself and for my
instructors so we can offer this yoga to all
the wounded warriors. So I did. I contacted the
director. David Emerson. And they went actually
down to Camp Lejeune. So I brought them down
to Camp Lejeune and they offered this big certification
for trauma -sensitive yoga. And they were very
surprised because we actually had a huge program.
But nobody really had the certification, right?
It was just out of intuition. How do we modify
this? How do we present yoga to the Marines?
But anyways, that's how we began the relationship
with... not only with yoga, but actually also
with David and with Bessel van der Kolk. And
later on, we, me and a couple of Marines went
to present at a conference there. And then from
there, for a few years down the road, I began
doing some portion, a small portion of the training
that Bessel had for, and the center had for clinicians.
So teaching how do you talk to veterans, how
do you teach yoga for veterans and all that.
But the funny thing is when I actually went to
do my own certification, I hated it. I was in
Old Town Alexandria, and it was very kind of,
oh, they're going to hate me for saying this,
snobby, you know. It was different. So here I
was right beside the News River. doing yoga,
you know, on the grass with the Marines and sailors.
And it was yoga for real people, I guess. And
then I am in a studio and it just didn't feel
right. But I did get the certification. I paid
a lot of money for it. And then I couldn't do
yoga anymore. It was fake to me. I couldn't.
But then I reconcile and it always happened to
me that I learned something that it doesn't align
with my intuition and my inner wisdom. But then
I have to sit with it and then reconcile with
it and say, OK, this is my validation, my certification
or like my doctorate. Right. But this is what
my upbringing says. This is what my intuition,
my higher wisdom and what my ancestors are telling
me. So I am going to do this. But I'm going to
take into consideration what I learned. And that
was my relationship to yoga, actually. It's interesting
that you talk about intuition because this is
something that I've noticed within myself. Like
I don't wear any wearables or anything like that.
And they absolutely have the place. My wife has
some, you know, the kind of... I forget what
the internet, but the wearable on her watch where
it counts her steps and she does the app where
she puts in her food. So it works for her. But
what worries me about that whole technological
side is that you lose the ability to just listen
to your body. And I've always been very, very
holistic and just feel, okay, today is probably
the end. I'm not going to go to the gym. I'm
just going to walk the dog. I'm going to listen
to my body. I need a little extra rest. Or for
some reason now I'm craving a lot more. meat
today so all right i'll eat more meat and i think
there's a lot of value in again going you know
rediscovering ancient humans and and how incredible
the human body actually is and it wants to heal
and it knows when it's thirsty or hungry or needs
more movement or needs more rest so talk to me
about that as we progress more and more into
the world where computers are telling us about
our body Talk to me about the importance of that
intuition and for us to be able to tap back into
that. That's what life is about. We are pure
intuition. We are pure consciousness. And I don't
want to go down the rabbit hole because I know
what people are going to think of me. I don't
care. Go down it. Slide down it. Here we go.
No, no, no. We are pure consciousness. We are
pure energy. That we are in this shape, in this
form, in this physical suit, right? Having a
human experience in this beautiful physical house
called Earth, planet Earth, in this life, in
this physical life. But our job as human beings...
with consciousness actually is connect to that
consciousness and to realize that we are consciousness
and this brain that we have is part of that physical
process and it's part of that physical element
and environment that allow us to experience life
in this planet but our job is to realize that
we are way more than that that we have is beautiful
core that connect us to that higher wisdom and
intuition to the sacred and to the source if
we get distracted and we do we get distracted
by technology and by all the things that our
brain has have created our brains collectively
we have created including technology then we
get farther away from that consciousness and
we begin to act only based on this in what we
have created. And that pulls us away from the
source. And what is that source? It's the connection
to the higher self, to the true consciousness
that we are. It's the connection to nature. We
are part of it. And we isolate ourselves from
nature, from other people. and from our higher
self and and when we are disconnected as when
we feel the there's something that is not in
harmony that is misaligned that is missing and
some people call that you know the midlife crisis
maybe or some people call that yeah whatever
it is you can coin it you can name it any way
you want to but all human beings we do have an
opportunity to wake up to realize that We have
lost that connection and our purpose, our job
in this beautiful schoolhouse called Physical
Life in Planet Earth is actually to learn from
our, not only from these life lessons, to release
this attachment, these koshas, these karmas,
these layers of experiences that we have in this
life and also our ancestors and our past lives.
and actually move inward, inward, not outward,
move inward towards that consciousness. And when
we get close and hopefully get to live life with
absolute consciousness and as conscious human
beings, then everything aligns and we have a
direct connection with the universe that is not
out there. We look at the stars and the universe
is there, it's here. And that's when everything...
heals and flows harmoniously but to get there
is very difficult because we have created steps
and barriers instead of using them like you say
your wife my husband does the same thing he wanted
one of those freaking watches and i gave him
one for christmas um but what happened is then
yes you use your mind to be like bobbleheads
being up here living from this headspace and
not really understanding that the true wisdom
comes from that consciousness that you are and
that you have disconnected. I will ask you this
at the end. I always ask people, what do you
do to decompress? And I would say 75, well, if
it's not them talking about spending time with
their family, then the other answer or the answer
instead is some sort of being out in nature.
And so there's that yearning to reconnect. And
I think we saw the negative side during the pandemic
when a lot of people were told to stay in their
homes and don't go outside and don't be around
the people that you love and don't move and,
you know, get poor, you know, bad food delivered
to your house. I mean, everything that we know
is going to heal was held from people. So in
the, you know, learn what not to do, the pandemic
was a good example of. what the real pillars
of health are and being outside and being connected
to people and, you know, meditation and reducing
stress and sleeping well and movement. I mean,
these are all things that we know are so important.
So, you know, it was so glaring during that time
of what we are being withheld from and what we
need to lean back into. And I've said even, you
know, the obesity crisis, the mental health crisis.
We're going to get into some really powerful
healing modalities in a minute. But if we just
went back to 100 years ago where people grew
food and they had to walk, you know, to and from
work and, you know, they had community and they're
in a small town, that in itself would move the
needle immensely on our physical and mental health.
And the more disconnected we get from the real
world, you know, really, you know, the fatter,
the sicker, the more depressed and the more anxious
we become. Mm hmm. Correct. Yeah. I also say
to my groups and what I share with them is what
my mentors have shared with me and also coming
from my own intuition and my background as a
child growing up in the farms. I call a farm
was a small cabin with two rooms and a piece
of land that we grew our vegetables. It's the
sense of community is so important. You know,
I. I spend more time in the U .S. than in Chile,
so I consider myself a product of that society,
which is pretty much all over the world. It's
not just the U .S., right? But the conditioning
to be independent, to solve preservation, and
the lack of communitas, and how important it
is to actually... help each other out in every
possible way, to serve other people, to be able
to volunteer, but not from that headspace because
you want to bring the light onto you, but actually
truly from the heart. And what I do, it's for
my own well -being. I do spend a lot of time
in the ocean. I love to go to the beach. That's
my happy place. But I also, what I do is volunteer.
I serve food with a group of volunteering and
practice gratitude. That's one thing that I really
push my groups and the people that come to see
me to understand how blessed you are. You have
no idea to get up and count your blessing. Just
opening your eyes and be able to take a deep
breath is such a blessing. And count your blessing
and be grateful for what you have. And remember
that you only have five basic needs. Everything
else is... It's a blessing. So communitas, being
in nature, serve other communities, being of
service to others from the heart space, giving
yourself to others and counting your blessing.
Every day being grateful for what you have. You
don't have to come from a really poor upbringing
to really value what you have now because what
you should value is not all that. material physical
stuff that it can be going at any time and to
create such attachment a strong attachment to
these things but what you have right now is not
about giving it value but it's just being grateful
grateful that you have it and grateful that you
can share with other people as well yeah i think
this is we talk about conditioning in the western
world one of the biggest issues i see and i would
say you know we are the worst in america as far
as um what's pumped through our screens is that
sense that you still don't have enough. No matter
what you've got, oh, but you don't have this,
oh, but you don't have that, but your house isn't
big enough, but you don't have a speedboat, whatever
it is, the MTV Cribs mentality. And it is destructive
because as you've alluded to how people are living
in Santiago or in the jungle, comparatively,
the safety, the comfort that we have, even if
you're not that well off in the US, is still
incredible compared to, you know, if you're living
in Syria or Gaza or, you know, wherever at the
moment, there are people that their house doesn't
even exist. It's just a pile of rubble. So if
you woke up and you've got a roof over your head
and there's food in the fridge, you're doing
so well, so, so well. And I love, someone was
telling me the other day that there's two types
of people, citizens and civilians. And they said
a citizen just lives in a country. That's it.
They use the resources, they live, they wake
up, they go to work, they come home. A civilian
is someone, sorry, I've got that around. A civilian
just lives in the country. A citizen is someone
who actually gives in that country. So they understand
what they've got. They're grateful for what they've
got. And then they're like, how can I be part
of a community? How can I lift someone up with
my mentorship, with my volunteers, volunteerism,
et cetera? And I love that mentality. If you
can look in the mirror and say, What can I do
today that will benefit someone other than myself?
If we all did that, 340 million people did that,
we would completely revolutionize the way we
look at things. But if we just turn on the television
and we're angry about the opposite political
party and we think that this group of people
are trying to take all our money through welfare
or whatever it is, we're missing the entire point.
We woke up today. That in itself is a gift because
a lot of people didn't. So I think if you could
infuse one thing into the Western world, it would
be gratitude and it would be life -changing.
Exactly. Take for example what happened in Puerto
Vallarta. I have no idea. I don't watch the news.
I don't watch the news and I don't do social
media. So I was in Chile when all this happened
here in Mexico. What I receive, and I'm very
grateful that so many people care enough to send
me texts and messages when I was in Chile, asking
me how I was doing, thinking that I was in Puerto
Vallarta when this happened on Sunday. And they
send me pictures and videos like, oh my God,
Puerto Vallarta disappeared. It's pretty much
like a war zone. I go home yesterday. I went
to Costco to get some, I don't know even what.
I was actually curious about to see how. Costco
was burned down. Nothing. Everything's absolutely
fine. But I guess this stuff sells on TV, so
people think that that's what is going on. But
the point is, what I see and what I have seen
in these small communities is people actually
working with each other to create a better space
for the society. The group that I volunteer with,
They went out on Wednesday and they served food.
They shared food with, you know, the people that
want to come and they have less resources. And
they came out and ate, you know, a warm meal
or whatever in downtown. But small gestures of
every day. I get up today and I go outside and
I clean the entire street. May not be like a
big thing, right? Well, I'm bettering my environment
and the environment for my neighbors. Do I get
upset about that? Sometimes I do because they
throw trash in the grass or on the floor or whatever.
But I also know that my neighbors work all day
long and they're not here. The ones that are
around me. So in a small gesture, it's just go
outside and who cares? I'm going to clean the
entire block. That is just a small analogy. But
what if we just... get off of our head and our
egos and say, I'm just going to do something
that is going to benefit others and it's going
to benefit us as a society. We can all do a little
part in that. We will have such a different place
to live. This world will be so much different.
But like you said, we get caught up on these
qualities and divisiveness and we send this negative.
dark low frequency vibration into the world that
feeds into it i'm developing a tv show at the
moment from books that i wrote and the kind of
the theory behind it is simply if we want to
bring kindness back and community then that involves
healing because when i see the divisiveness and
the nastiness and The addiction that then is
forced into the underworld because of drug prohibition
and now we have cartels, etc., etc., etc. All
of that screams trauma to me. So to me, I think
we have a global mental health crisis in a generation
where really a lot of people should be living.
We should be doing extremely well because the
technology that we've got and the understanding
and the communication, the potential for us to
be thriving as a species is better now than ever
in one respect. What is your perspective of that?
When you do come across some of these things
that are happening around the world, what is
your perspective of the root of that being unaddressed
trauma of when these men and women were small?
So I believe that we are actually experiencing
what is called the great change. And I talk to
these, to my groups that come to the retreats
with me. This unsettling, this divisiveness,
this polarization, it's the preamble of people
actually wanting to stay asleep and people actually
wanting to wake up. To wake up that we have that
consciousness. We all do. We are equipped with
that consciousness. Maybe this is not your time
to wake up, and that's okay too. I am not going
to shake you up and say, please wake up. No,
that's the most awful thing to do when somebody
is sleeping, right? To go and shake them up and
wake them up. No, really. It's in their own time.
But this is the process of waking up, and there's
a prophecy. It's called the Great Pachacutec,
which is the time for the great change, where
500 years of darkness is coming to an end. And
we begin to wake up. To understand that we are
conscientious human beings equipped with this
beautiful gem that you can connect through the
heart into the source, the consciousness that
I'm talking about. And some people are listening
and answering that call and some others are not.
But those of us that have waken up and doing
the work, we need to share it. but in a very
subtle, loving, compassionate way, not hitting
people, you know, with something in the head.
And I have to say that's one of the reasons why
I don't do podcasts and I don't do because I
hate seeing all these people that are like, oh,
my God, I have this medicine and I have this
incoherent awakening and you should do it and
this and that. That's not a way to do it. That's
not a way. Don't talk. Shut your mouth and do
the work. I always say, be the change that you're
going to see in the world. I didn't say that.
It's somebody else's. Quote, if you're doing
your work, do it yourself, internally, quietly,
and then be a better human being and create a
ripple effect. Just be the change you want to
see in the world. shouting around like like evangelists
in the corner of your in your street i'm sorry
for saying that but just just just be the change
and and be the example that's it in a loving
way i love that i want to go back to when you
met basil vandercock he wrote the body keeps
the score Up until that point, you've been very
intuitive as far as your journey and realizing
that there's a physical expression to some of
the trauma that you've got bottled up still.
Talk to me about that interaction when you meet
someone more from the psychological, scientific
side that's validating. I'm not even validating
the wrong word because you already knew in your
heart, but had put it out in a scientific way
as far as the connection between the physical
and the mental. Yeah. So back then, 2006, 2007,
Bessel wasn't as famous as he is now. He's a
major player in this. I guess, awareness of the
body actually holding on to traumas and experiences.
So for me, it was just somebody else that came
to take my class. I was doing my thing in Camp
Lejeune, working with the veterans, with the
wounded warriors, and literally doing my thing.
I had no expectation, no desire. There was nothing
else in my life other than I'm here with my guys.
and that are traumatized and we're doing a great
job where you know the guys are coming out of
their barracks they're doing exercise again they
are becoming you know human beings more involved
and and then when I met Bessley it's like okay
well he's another doctor because he's a psychiatrist
he's another doctor that is coming to check out
my what I'm doing here and I didn't think anything
of it but then When I went to Boston and I trained,
no, actually, they came down to train us in trauma
-sensitive yoga. We were invited, actually, to
speak at the conference. I think it was 2008,
the 19th International Trauma Conference. I think
that was the name. And I realized that this guy
is really on to something. He's actually putting
it in and verbalizing and articulating what I
feel. I am not really good. I hate writing, honestly.
I have to write so much for school. But I am
more like the person that sits down and feel.
And so I really admire his ways of articulating
exactly what it was in my heart and in my mind.
Back then, I had a few interactions with him,
obviously going to, I went a couple of times,
three times, I can remember, to actually do the
part of doing yoga or working with clinicians
that were working with veterans. And I admire
that. I admire anybody that is able to articulate
what I am feeling and what I am thinking. So
that was my interaction. I guess that's what
I feel about Besson. He's done a great job. articulated
what i feel and what i know in my heart you know
the body is is really keeping the score of everything
that we do and not only in this lifetime i mentioned
earlier we bring some stuff from different lifetimes
and from our ancestors as well so yeah our job
is to wake up and to realize that we need to
release this this energy that is stuck within
us in this physical body Talk to me about the
families. I know you work for the family readiness
department as well. That's a lot of times the
forgotten people when it comes to first responders
or military. So how were you able to then start
helping family members too? Did you mean in this
medicine space or before? It's up to you, wherever
you want to take this. Well, my involvement with
the family readiness was the... With the 2nd
Raider Battalion in completion, the Marine Special
Operations Command, it was pretty much logistic,
preparing the families, I guess, physically for
whatever the deployment stress brought to them.
But I also incorporated the personal touch, which
was as much as I could, talking one -on -one
with the families. I didn't develop what I really
wanted to do. It was very... divided between
the the counselors and the psychologists and
the um they were just working with the families
and my my piece was actually more logistic okay
so your your loved ones is going to training
for six months and then it's coming back for
two and then he's gone for six months that fast
tempo how is that going to affect you but in
your physical environment And I wasn't very satisfied
with just addressing the physical environment.
Do you have your paperwork? Do you have your
wills? Do you have this and do you have that?
But when it really changed is when I moved to
Puerto Vallarta. No, I take that back. Working
at NICO, at the National Intrepid Center of Excellence,
actually before I went to MARSOC, I was working
a little bit with the family and I understood
how that affected the deployments. in the training,
the fast tempo, how that affected their family
and how that affected to the spouses. And also
taking into consideration that I was myself a
spouse of a Marine. And so I knew how that affected
me and the people that I work with. But when
I moved here to Puerto Vallarta in 2020, my intention
was to do retreats also for the families. And
to offer and extend these programs to the spouses,
and that doesn't mean only female. It could be
partners. It doesn't matter. Just the partner,
whoever is supporting the veteran. Because for
5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years, you have been holding
on this space for somebody that is going to training
and deployments, and you never know if that person
is coming back. And how you have to deal on your
own with the kids and with all the, we have a
saying, you know, for the spouses that when the
guy goes away and he's on deployment, then you
are stuck in the house. Everything, the entire
house breaks loose pretty much. Everything breaks
down in the house. And then you have to deal
with that. And then you have kids, you have to
deal with the kids and with illnesses. And then
not being able, in the past, you couldn't hear
from your loved ones when they were on deployment.
They would call you maybe once a month. It wasn't
now, like you have the ability to text or to
call anytime you want. So, of course, you are
on guard. Of course, physiologically, there is
a dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system
because you have to be on and on alert all the
time. You have to keep the fort. So it's important
to offer these, I guess, modalities also to the
family members because they are affected. Okay,
I'm talking about the veterans, I forgot. That
is also true for law enforcement. And it's also
true, obviously, for our firefighters. Absolutely.
You talked about MARSOC, you know, you work with
the high level operators. One of the things that
I've started talking about, as far as this conversation
and reframing it, because I don't know if you've
seen the same kind of thing, but In my world,
in the first responder world, when we're talking
about mental health, it's still, oh, they're
broken. We need to try and fix them, try and
stop them taking their own lives, pull them from
addiction. It's all a very negative story. And
that's true. We do have to solve those things.
But what I realize on the physical health side,
on the mental health side, is if we reframe it
to that person performing at the high level,
which we are required to do as a Marine, as a
firefighter, as a police officer. It's the same
journey that, you know, your meditation, your
yoga and your strength and conditioning and nutrition
and your, you know, your addressing traumas that
you buried down and maybe, you know, psychedelic
journeys that you're going to forge performance.
So being a better version of yourself, having
that post -traumatic growth, being more apt to
be able to get into a flow state in a gunfight
or searching a house for a child, that offers
a lot more hope than. the sad story of you're
in a dark place let's try and pull you out the
dark place you work with these high level war
fighters what did you see as far as these same
modalities that you're doing for healing when
they're coming back from war as far as forging
performance as a as a marine It's interesting.
I remember this question came several times when
I was working at NICO, at the National Institute
of Excellence. I was doing a lot of different
techniques like biofeedback, using meditation,
visualization, imagery, just different techniques
in general, even yoga, tai chi. And they were
getting into that flow state, but they were also
concerned that They will be too much in that
flow state that they wouldn't be on alert and
be good warriors. And the difference in the operational
side is you are actually on alert or you are
aware to different states. When you are aware,
you have 360 degree of awareness of what is happening
around. When you're on alert. you are on the
activation side of the autonomic nervous system
on the sympathetic mode, which is tunnel vision.
So that is a huge difference, right? But if you
are calm and if you are present and you are in
the moment and you are in that flow state, you're
going to actually be able to be a better warrior
or a better whatever. So it definitely is more
beneficial to be in that present awareness state
as opposed to be on the alert state. So we talked
a lot about still the physical side. Talk to
me about when the idea of reconnecting with your
childhood, with that ancient, you know, medicine
that you'd been raised with and exploring the
world of psychedelics as a healing modality.
Yeah, actually, I was at NICO working. I have
finished my work with the Wounded Warrior Detachment
in Badassan, Walter Reed. And I already had a
job actually lined up to move from, I guess,
the green side into the other side, more clinical
side with the NICO. And it was right before I
moved to NICO, I believe it was 2009, 2010, a
gentleman came to the detachment. He was looking
for a nephew that was injured in Afghanistan.
His name was Henry, and I call him Uncle Henry.
Native American Lakota spiritual leader of the
community. And we saw each other when he came
to the detachment. And we recognized each other,
I guess, from a previous life that we fell instantly
for each other. He was back then probably 86,
87 years old. We became instant friends. And
he actually told me, he wanted to teach me the
Lakota way of healing if I wanted to go. back
to his farm sometimes and learn how to use the
herbs and the prayers and whatever. And I said,
sure, absolutely. I was working on my doctorate.
So working full time on my doctorate, writing,
reading on weekends, but I, I took it immediately
as this is something I need to do. I don't know
why, but I was incorporating already very, you
know, spiritual teachings or I guess practices
in my, in my, you know, interactions with the
veterans. But there was something missing. And
that felt right for me to do, to learn from these
men. So, yeah, once I started going to Uncle
Henry, he introduced me to the soil lodge, the
Sundance, and all these Native American practices.
Then I realized that, wow, that. Without me actually
rationalizing, I don't really sit down and think
about things. I just, I'm driven by my intuition.
I always have. And I didn't realize, I didn't
put two plus two together. You know, it's like,
oh, I'm going back to my roots. No, I'm going
to see Uncle Henry. And it feels really good
that I'm going to learn about the soil. I'm going
to get there. And no, it just felt right. And,
but that start, that was the catalyst for my.
need to change to get back to my own roots um
I remember that I felt guilty at the beginning
I felt guilty because I thought okay wait a minute
Andrea you have gone through you have been in
this path going from this physical fitness to
this psychology and then back to this physical
fitness I'm going to rehab and now you are incorporating
yoga you had no business doing yoga until because
that was around the time that I am actually learning
how to do proper yoga getting the validation
getting the certificate which is so important
right and then I couldn't do yoga so I have all
these ideas like why can't you just focus and
I have this internal conversation with myself
like why Why can't you just stay focused on one
thing? Why do you have to go in so many different
directions? And it's like, I was so involved
now with Buddhism. And I was like, okay, I'm
going to start learning traditional healings
from the Lakota medicine and all the Lakota tradition.
why can't I just focus on one thing and don't
even look at what else is out there? And I remember
going the first time to Uncle Henry's, and he's
sitting in a circle with a group of people, and
he's talking about Buddhism. And he's talking
about, you know, walking the middle path. And
I was like, wait a minute. Uncle Henry, he's
out. medicine man who's done like 50 sun dances
and he's talking about buddhism he's talking
about the buddha and they walk in the middle
path like and that gave me permission i felt
that gave me permission to actually be okay with
learning about different traditions and incorporate
them because at the end of the day they're talking
about the same thing and So that was very interesting
that that allowed me to fully immerse myself
in what Uncle Henry wanted to share with me,
which was such a beautiful gift. But anyway,
so he was the catalyst to actually for me to
start looking inward and say, like, what is missing
in my life and what is missing in my professional
life is the spiritual path. So I need to resolve
my own issues with my own trauma, which. I had
awful symptoms. One of them was rage, anger.
That was the worst one. And then I needed to
deal with that with my own healing. But also
I needed to incorporate into my path as a professional
spiritual healing and offer that to the people
that I was working with. So it was during the
2012 Sundance that I got the message from the
Great Spirit telling me that I needed to leave.
I was already in a really weird position with
my marriage where I absolutely loved my ex -husband,
but we were in love. And he wasn't in love either,
but neither of us wanted to really call it quits.
And I was absolutely, I loved my job at Nyko.
I loved what I was doing, but it was something
that was misaligned. And I always say this, you
know when the highway is right beside you, but
you're on the side road? I fell on the side road,
and I wasn't flowing. with the traffic on the
main road. So I, after the Sundance, I decided
that I needed to, I needed to leave and that
I needed to leave everything. And I did. I, it
was hard, but I followed the advice of great
spirit, which was follow the sun to Mexico. And
I did. I decided to just quit my job, which I
absolutely love at Nyko. and to get a divorce.
And I packed my car with two suitcases, my little
Chihuahua, and I drove south and never looked
back. I'm not going to say that it didn't hurt.
It hurt so much, so much, so much to leave everything.
But I needed to find my own healing. I needed
to find my way, my path, my true path, because
I was on the side road. And my intuition just
told me, just got to go. But Uncle Henry was
the one who actually was the catalyst. And he
taught me so much. He was such a generous man,
such a beautiful mentor. He transitioned in 2016
or 15. Yeah. But he was the catalyst for my change.
So you're driving south with... A car and a chihuahua.
How did that end up finding psychedelic medicine?
Well, it wasn't then. What I did is I needed
to reconnect with my native roots. And I did.
I reconnected with some people that practice
traditional, I wouldn't say traditional healing.
Yes, they do, but not with psychedelic medicine.
They're Nahuas. They're my friends, and we actually
work together. I invite them to participate in
my retreats. So I reconnected with my roots,
with my native roots, doing ceremonies like the
Temezcalo, the soil lodge, and going with them
to the sand dances and to the vision quests and
things like that, the rituals they perform. But
then I went back to the U .S. in 2015. There
was something that I needed to complete there.
And I don't know. Again, my God told me, you
need to go back to the U .S. Something that you
need to do there. You're not ready yet. And I
went back to Camp Lejeune. That's when I was
working with the MARSOC. And in 2020. During
the pandemic, I was already working at the University
of Colorado in a program very similar to the
NICO in Bethesda, working with veterans and actually
professional athletes with TBI and PTSD. And
a lot of people there, and that was my intuition
telling me, you need to go from working with
the green side, go to the civilian side. Don't
know why, but you need to do that because you're
going to meet people there that are going to
tell you that psychedelic medicine is the way
to go for the veterans back then. Just the veterans.
And I did. I met so many people. Again, the veterans
are the ones that start talking about, hey, you
know that ayahuasca can help us heal, right?
You know that, the bufo, you know that, the mushrooms.
And I knew about it, but I have no idea how to
incorporate that, how to even bring that into
the civilian. clinical environment in Colorado.
What I was doing was bringing them, the veterans,
to the sweat lodge with another friend, another
mentor, good father, dad, good father. But still
there was that dismissing. And honestly, I had
some beautiful moments in Colorado, but it wasn't
my environment. Physically, it was cold and it
was high. It was snowy. I absolutely... I hate
the cold weather. But I needed to be there to
hear from the veterans again, hey, this is what
we need. And you are the one to actually open
the door for us. And so I did. And there's so
many people, so many players in that during the
two years that I was in Colorado. So I decided,
okay, now that the pandemic is closing the doors
and we're working from home, I'm going to leave
and I'm going to do it. So I did. Again, I was
remarried to my beautiful husband, who's a Mexican
boy, a Mexican guy. And I told him, I said, guess
what? We're going back to Mexico. And he's like,
are you crazy? He's like, yeah, I lost my mind
again. And that's a good thing. Not again. Not
again. Lost your mind and sold the house in August
2020 and moved to Mexico. And I said, I'm going
to do these treatments, and I'm going to offer
to the community that I know, which was the military
community. And that's how I began offering these
retreats. I knew the medicine, but before I began
the retreats, I actually came to the understanding
that I needed to. open myself to my own healing.
And that happened when I was before here in 2014,
15, 14, when I was here with this group of friends
that I was following around and doing native
ceremonies. That's when I understood that my
trauma was so profound and I haven't dealt with
it. I haven't dealt with all the physical sexual
abuse and I haven't dealt with abandonment. I
haven't dealt with a lot of things. So anyways,
I was... healing myself in the process. But I
knew that I needed to explore the medicine, the
sacred medicine, and I went with ayahuasca. That
was my first medicine. No, I lied. It was peyote.
So we did Hikurian, but that was a beautiful
experience. But with ayahuasca, it wasn't. I
mean, it was a great experience, but it was very
painful. Opening those boxes and actually facing
all my shadows, which is, you know. the manifestation
of all the pain and trauma that I have suffered.
But I understand that it's necessary. It's a
process of facing it, accepting it, and letting
go. And that's what I did. And that's when I
was ready to say, okay, now I understand how
this works, and I'm going to offer this to my
community, the military community. So I did.
And at the beginning, I wanted to do only four
retreats. because it takes a lot of energy to
actually put together the retreat in the way
that I want it. It is not you come and do the
medicine and then you go. You do a lot of different
activities before the preparation and then during
the retreat, which I don't like the word retreat,
but I haven't found another one. You do a lot
of work during the week that you spend with me,
and then you have the medicine. And then you
go back and we continue with the integration
process. But I wanted to do only four retreats.
I ended up doing last year's 27. So it's been
crazy. It's been fast -paced, but it's not, how
do I want to say? It's not an effort. It flows
so naturally to do it when you're doing things
from the heart space. When you do everything
for love and compassion, and whoever needs to
be here will be here. If at some point everything
is legalized in the U .S. and nobody wants to
come see me and do the medicine the traditional
way, then that's fine too. I am absolutely fine
with that. Whoever needs to be here to do it
the right way, with traditional healers, with
the preparation, they will be here. I am not
pushing any agenda on anybody. you will hear
you need to now with ayahuasca you know specifically
in in mexico again what's the history of that
being used you know what was the application
in the traditional sense for myself no just just
for the people in general the people of those
tribes that were using it before well okay so
going back to the beginning of our conversation
right people that grows in the crow in the jungle
in the farms in nature We have such a deep connection
to everything that it is. We believe, and I say
we as of native backgrounds, that everything
has a spirit and everything has something to
teach us, even the rocks and the water, the elements.
But we need to truly listen to them. So we spend
time in nature alone. That's why Native Americans,
not only the U .S., Canada, the U .S., and Latin
American countries, they do vision quests. Because
when you sit in silence for four days without
food or water, you truly listen. You truly see
what is going on. And that's what happened to...
People that live in these settings, they are
able to truly listen to the plants and to the
trees and to open themselves to the consciousness,
to receive information from nature. That's what
it is there for. And they start using, I mean,
think about how many combinations of plants you
have to take to actually come up to ayahuasca
and chacruna to have the mix and the brew called
ayahuasca, right? That doesn't happen in a vacuum.
That doesn't happen in... As a coincidence, that
doesn't happen if people try a hundred thousands
of times different combinations. That comes out
from either a dream, a vision, or a direct conversation
with nature where you receive information from
them through your consciousness. And that's how
you're able to understand that this plant or
this combination is used for this. And it is
here to help us to heal, to release all traumas,
and to actually strengthen that connection with
the human size, with that consciousness that
we have. So people always ask me, how did these
natives realize, you know, they can use these
two plants to mix them and cook them or brew
them to become ayahuasca? I'm just grateful that...
they did and we can all do that too if we are
i think it's possible to do it now but with all
the technology but to actually shut off completely
and just be you a part of the nature and just
truly listen and immerse yourself and truly listen
to the environment when nature with earth with
elements they have to tell us they have to teach
us and humbling ourselves because we were so
arrogant we think that we our technology and
our titles and our validation and certifications
we are all that and no we're not we're not in
we're not better than an ant and a cockroach
and a tree and a rock we are part of it and we
should respect them and listen to them and and
live in harmony with all of that only then we
become conscientious human beings absolutely
You mentioned about this basically spawned from
your work with the military. One of the biggest
lessons that I've learned doing this podcast
so far was, and this was outside the psychedelic
space, but was the prevalence of childhood trauma
in our men and women in uniform and how a lot
of times that drives us into this tribe, this
wanting to be the protector, not wanting other
people to feel the pain that we felt, wanting
to fill our... mind space with busyness and excitement
so that we don't have to think about the things.
And so I've heard so many times that when people
have really, especially in the psychedelic space,
have gone into these journeys expecting that
Afghanistan or a fatal car accident. was going
to be the root of their trauma, but more often
than not, it was actually their formative years,
their childhood, were the things that were really
buried down. What have you seen as far as first
responders and military, these kind of awakenings
of the root of some of their struggles? Yeah,
it's very common to see childhood trauma in the
first responders community and in the veterans
community. Again, and that's a coincidence. And
I don't believe that because you have childhood
trauma, you are driven to join the military,
just let's say the military, because you're looking
for a family, a mentor, a community. Yeah, that
is true. But that is true at the physical, cognitive,
psychological level. Yes, that is true. But beyond
that, at the spiritual level, is that... your
spirit knows that you need to complete a cycle.
You need to close a cycle. So if you have experienced
trauma, you need to release that. You may not
know it, but by doing what you are doing, either
being a first responder or being of service,
being a police officer, firefighter, or even
a veteran, somehow those experiences that you're
going to have, in your life are going to help
you, one, to address those traumas, and two,
to close those cycles of trauma. So I think it
goes two levels. The psychological one, the need
for finding that community, that safetiness,
finding that, in the case of the military, that
family that didn't embrace you or whatever, any
human being that came from a broken family, drug
addiction or whatever. But at the spiritual level,
we are carrying these layers of trauma that goes
sometimes beyond this physical life. And intuitively,
we're going into and putting ourselves into positions
where we can close those cycles and those chapters.
So it's absolutely common that pretty much everybody
that comes to finding healing, they're going
to have some childhood trauma. So what are some
of the, I mean, I'm sure there's so many, but
some of the success stories that, you know, you
still remember fondly as far as the military
side before we go to the first responder side.
I will say without quoting or just thinking about
one particular case, but I will say. Going back
to what my grandmother used to treat, and in
general, most of the curanderos, the healers,
which it is to help people to find pieces of
the soul that are fragmented. Because in the
tradition, when you have a traumatic event, sometimes
part of the soul leaves and is fragmented, and
that's when you have a sensation of feeling completely...
I guess the word, and that your soul left your
body. I heard that from a few veterans. And the
shaman, the curandero, the healer, actually goes
in, traveling to that physical, beyond the physical
dimension, traveling to that spiritual dimension,
and is able to call the pieces of the soul back
and make your whole again. The medicine can actually
do the same thing. It can actually... But the
difference is that you are the one that is, after
you have the medicine, then you're opening, lifting
the veil of the mind, and you're traveling into
that, beyond the physical, into the spiritual
dimension, and able to call yourself those fragmented
pieces of the soul and bring it back together
so that you are feeling whole again. So it's
an interaction between the spirit of the medicine
and your own spirit. I forgot what you asked
me at the end. Sorry. No, it's okay. No, I was
saying some of the success stories. The success
story, yes. So among those lines, the success
stories come when you see people going back to
wholeness. When you see the light back into their
eyes, it's easy to recognize. You know, people
used to see... of our veterans that have gone
to war, they have their cells and yards there.
What's it called? There's nothing behind their
eyes. They can see, but really, what is behind
those eyes? And just to see the sparkle back,
to just see life. I don't know if you have seen,
probably you have, when somebody transcends.
It's very amazing to see how that sparkle actually
just dimmed and is gone. But you can see also
people that is alive with all functioning, but
still there is no sparkle in the eyes. And after
the medicine, that sparkles back. So life, soul
is back. And that's the success story. It's not
just one person. It's just seeing them back to
be fully alive, not just existing, not going
through the motions and doing like a robot. They
are about to be actually fully living human beings.
Those are the success that I see. One of the
themes of the last book I wrote is generational
trauma and kind of understanding these dominoes
that were falling before us. can actually do
our own healing that we can hopefully prevent
the domino falling from our children or at least
our grandchildren and and heal from both sides
from a spiritual point of view what is the perspective
on this generational trauma like you mentioned
your childhood i would assume then probably there
was trauma in in your mother's life in your father's
life so how is that viewed from the spiritual
side yeah i mentioned earlier that we come into
this physical, you know, place in this physical
body to close cycles. Cycles that are not only
our own from this lifetime. But I also believe
that what happened to us in this lifetime, in
this physical body, in this present life, is
also, there is a reason for it. It's because
something is unleft and undone and finished and
healed from a previous life. And this is going
to sound harsh, right? But perhaps it could be
that what I experienced in this life, the pain
of losing my father, perhaps, maybe, in a previous
life, I was somebody that left somebody and that
caused pain. And I came into this life to actually
complete that cycle of pain. and to close it.
I needed to experience abandonment and to accept
it and to forgive and to let it go. So then future
generations in my blood lineage wouldn't have
to experience that. So it's not only the... trauma
generation and generational trauma that we are
healing you know native americans say that you
can heal seven generations before seven generation
after but it's also closing cycles and and that
goes into you know a more extreme i guess difficult
belief that we don't come into this life with
the people that are our sibling as a coincidence
we do have already predetermine ourselves. Who
is going to be the player in my life? Who's going
to be my mother? Who's going to be my father?
Who are going to be my brothers and sisters?
My boyfriend, my husband, the people that hurt
me so much, right? I already know. But as soon
as I transition from that source into this life,
I forget. However, my intuition and my consciousness
that remains should guide me to actually heal
those processes, traumas from before, trauma
in my own blood lineage. And in a different setting,
obviously, in a different time, in a different
physical body, I may not have been a female.
I may not have been, I don't know. I don't know
what I was before. But I know and I trust that
my higher self, My higher consciousness decided
that I needed to live this life this way and
go through all this pain and suffering so that
I can heal and close those cycles so I can move
on a little bit lighter into the next one. I
love that perspective. It's kind of extreme,
I know. No, I like it. I mean, even just if you
look at it slightly different when you were talking,
having had a childhood and experienced trauma
yourself. I'm thinking like like a river, you
know, you can even let that same experience pass
you pass through you and onto your children and
they experience the same trauma. Or you can take
the pain and effort that it causes to build a
dam and then stop that. So it's the same thing,
no matter how you reframe it, it's the same kind
of kind of, you know, perspective is if you have
the courage, excuse me, if you have the courage
to actually. you know, deal with this pain, look
in the mirror, you know, address it. What a beautiful
gift it is to the world, to the next generation,
to not pass it on. So whether, as you said, it
was a penance from a previous life, or whether
it's just simply watching this seven generations,
as the Native Americans have said, and here you
are. I think I find it very exciting. I've said
this recently. My generation, our generation,
has one foot in the old ways, one foot in this
new conversation, exactly like we're having now.
When I say the old ways, I'm talking about modern
medicine mentality, where we can now forgive
everything that happened in the past, not pass
it on to the front. So I see that we really are
the dam. We have the opportunity to really be
this courageous generation that debunks some
of the things that we were raised to believe
from mental health and ancient medicine and all
these things, reframe it. work on ourselves.
And then, as you said, those seven generations
ahead of us are going to benefit from it. So
I think it's a great perspective. Yes, it is.
And thank you for validating that. Sometimes
that's why I don't talk very much about these
things, because it's difficult to understand
and even more difficult to accept. that we do
have a role in this trauma because of past experiences
and past lives. Absolutely. Well, for people,
I want to get to the SIREN project, but before
we do, for people that were going to attend a
retreat, what would that week look like? Give
us an overview of what it would look like from,
you know, even before they arrive, any sort of
preparation to, you know, what that week experience
would be. And then we can even get into the integration
after as well. Sure. In this case, they will
go through a preparation that usually should
be at least a month out. I try to do it three
months out where the directors of the organization
will identify the people that are able to join
the retreat. Because there is a process of elimination,
let's just say at the beginning. First is going
to be the interview with the director where they
will... realize that they have some, for example,
taking some medications or if they have some
conditions that will be a contraindication for
any of the medicine. And if they're able to continue
on, they will go to the second step, which is
the medical intake, which is a questionnaire
that I send out. And based on that, they will
go through this first step, which is the medical
screening or safety screening. So say, for example,
that Angela or Tim, in this case, they will identify
somebody that has, I don't know, somebody that
has taken SSRIs for, say, 20 years. Can somebody,
yes, they can, but they have to actually stop
taking the medication and be symptom -free two
weeks prior to the retreat. So I would say, yeah,
send them to me. Then I send them the medical
questionnaire, and then I will see they are more
in detail what kind of medication, how long they
have been taking it, and a little bit more in
detail. Based on that, I will determine if they
can go through the safety screening. Then they
go through the safety screening with a medical
doctor. Then the last step will be if you're
able to get off these SSRIs with the help of
your own prescriber, then we can absolutely bring
you here if you're willing to. taper off the
medication safely. And if you have been taking
medication for 20 years, you're not going to
be able to do probably this in three months safely.
But if you're taking this for five years, you
can do that in three months. You can taper off
the medication, be symptom -free. We can help
you with some suggestions for supplementation.
But know that it's going to be difficult, right?
It's going to be very difficult physically. You're
going to have all these symptoms because literally
you're going to go through withdrawal symptoms.
And this is how they look like. Are you willing
to do that? And if they say, yes, we can do that.
Okay, let's go on. Start the preparation that
includes their own prescriber should help them
to taper off the medication. So going from a
20 milligram to like zero milligram within three
months, if it's possible. And then the preparation
includes the dieta, which is, and a lot of people,
you know, raise an eyebrow and say like, why
do you send them a diet that is so strict? Well,
because I follow a tradition that is the Mazatecan
tradition to do the medicine. It means that you
have to pretty much follow an anti -inflammatory
detoxifying diet, which includes you're not going
to have red meats or pork, alcohol, definitely
no alcohol, no caffeine, pretty much wholesome.
you know, food based on grains, vegetables, fish
and chicken. And obviously it is not only what
you eat, but it's also what you hear, you know,
data from the electronic, from the news, the
music that you listen. So it's a full data. It's
not just only what you consume through your mouth.
It's what you see, what you watch, what you hear,
what you listen. Developing a practice, you know,
a practice as simple as gratitude. some spiritual
practice, some mindfulness, meditation, yoga,
something. We send you all the guidelines. And
then when the time comes, we have two preparation
calling groups, and they also have some coaching
that the director will set that up, you know,
with our coaches. When they get here, they arrive
one day before the retreat. And we get together
that evening. We go and have dinner. We get to
know each other physically. We have been already
talking via Zoom. And also in a group that we
have in Signal. When they get to the retreat
the next day, we get to work. You know, we have
a lot to do. So we get to work by... We do the
sweat lodge. It's the first... Well, before the
soil lodge, we do an introspective work where
we encourage people to take their mask off, to
allow themselves to be vulnerable, to show themselves
as they are, be vulnerable, to let the guard
down, because in the American society, it's pretty
much conditioned to be very much not show emotions
and to be a stoic and to be... you know, put
together and hold it together. And we encourage
students at first, and 99 % of the time opens
up, everybody opens up, the mask comes off, the
armor comes off, and show how vulnerable we are,
and this is what we're here for. So I always
say, show up and speak your truth. That's all
that I'm asking you right now. Show up and speak
the truth. And this is a safe container, a safe
environment for you to do that. That's why you're
here. That's why you're here to do the work.
So don't come to the retreat thinking that we're
going to do the work for you, not even the medicine.
You have to do the work. That is an understanding
from the beginning, including the preparation,
right? The dieta. So we do the sweat lodge, which
is uncomfortable for so many people. It is long.
It's about two hours. It is hot, incredibly hot.
And people are scared to be in a small, confined
space in darkness. But that's the first. door
that we open which is the allow yourself to be
uncomfortable and to be okay with the discomfort
because we're so we're in a society that we quickly
we have a little bit of pain we take a pill if
we are too hard we turn the AC on if we have
to call we take the heat and so everything is
going to be like immediate gratification right
now instead of like sitting with it let me sit
with it what is this about So the first uncomfortable
is going to be the introspective work where we
take the mask off. The second one, getting in
the sweat lodge. It's not easy. People are scared
to death when they get in. And when you hear
the healer, the people that are doing the sweat
lodge, chanting and drumming inside, that's another
layer of fear factor, right? Confined space,
dark, with a lot of other people, extreme heat,
and native healers singing, drumming, chanting.
Yeah. You have to overcome that. And it's a beautiful,
powerful ceremony of cleansing and purification
and overcoming. And then we have dinner, we go
to bed, the next day we do medicine. But we start
with a practice in the morning. So it could be
some somatic -based practice, could be yoga,
tai chi, could be some breath work. Then the
preparation is the medical doctor gets. to do
the checkups, the vitals, make sure obviously
the blood pressure is going to be high because
everybody's anxious, but it's okay. Then we do
the flower bath, which is another clinching ceremony.
And from there, before the flower bath, we do
what is called opening the cardinal point, the
rumbos, opening the rumbos, where we ask permission
to the earth, the environment around us, to have
a ceremony. We call the guardians of the space.
We call them ancestors. And we ask the elements
that are connected with one stage in our life
and the cardinal points to actually support us
in this journey. After that, we do the flower
bath. And then immediately after that, we go
into the ceremony. And the ceremony brings on
traditional healers from the native tradition
in Mexico. And we have live music, and the ceremonies
will last between four and eight hours. It will
depend, you know. But the process are deep, very
deep, beautiful, and very, they're a catalyst.
The medicine is a catalyst for you to decide
to release those traumas. And then usually the
next thing that we do is a group share. then
dinner, and then we're tired, go to bed. The
next day, we're going to do the second ceremony,
which is one -on -one with the toad. And this
is the case of the siren project, right? Because
some other groups only do one ceremony, or maybe
they do three ceremonies of the same medicine.
But in this case, with the siren project, we'll
do the mushrooms one day, and the next day will
be the toad, which is the 5 -MeO -DMT, the bufalvarius.
And we get up in the morning, we do a hape ceremony,
which is tobacco sniff. And we do that because
it helps us to ground ourselves and to open ourselves
up to really open those energetic channels and
whatever is stuck in the body. Trust me, the
tobacco, pure tobacco is going to push it out
of the body. That in itself is a ceremony. It's
very intense. And after that, we do medical checkups
again. And then one by one, they receive the
medicine again with a traditional healer. one
by one. And how are they supported? In the mushroom
ceremonies, you will have one, two, three, three
healers, a musician, and then the cleaner, which
is the copalera, who's cleaning the energies,
the medical doctor and myself. So we have a ratio
one -on -one. So we have eight people, participants.
We have eight people working the space. And the
same for the toad. We have a list for people
working the space while you're receiving the
medicine, including my dogs. My dogs are little
curanderos. They like to sit in bed with the
participants. They're really cute. And then the
next day is, well, during the second ceremony,
after they finish the talk, that evening we will
do, again, integration or shared group, and then
dinner. If we do have some time that evening
and they're not so tired, we will do something
else. If not, we're going to bed. The next day
is a fun day. We get up, we do some more somatic
work, then breakfast, and then I take them out
on a boat ride to the beach. They go to this
beautiful place where they play like children.
They have so much fun. We go back to the house.
We have a late lunch. Then we do another celebration,
which I call the cacao ceremony, because I serve
cacao and prepare in the traditional way of the
Mayans and the Aztecs, the way they prepare it.
And we have a celebration, which is a beautiful
celebration of finishing up the ceremonies. I
bring the traditional Aztec dancers and my, you
know, my healer, my team, they are now us. And
they bring their music and dances. So we're grateful
for the land and for the medicine, for the great
spirit, for the guardians. And we close the ceremonies
in that way. The next day we get up, we have
breakfast, hang out together, and then we're
ready to go home. So it's intense, it's fast
-paced, and it's beautiful. It sounds incredible.
It really does. I've seen, you know, a couple
of documentaries on some of the other, you know,
Ibogaine and some of the other facilities down
there as well. But, you know, I think you've
laid it out in a way that probably reduces a
bit of fear, because I think some of the fear
comes from not knowing anything about it at all.
seeing that laid out and hearing the benefits
and the journeys that people have been, especially
I love to hear the five MAODMT journeys where
people say they have this realization that as
you alluded to before, that we're all connected
to everything, the trees and the ocean and the
rocks and the animals and the fear of death,
the fear of our mortality kind of melting away.
Right. And I think what is missing, I guess,
is And what I like to offer is the ceremony and
the ritual, which are so important, that are
lost in our modern society. We need to bring
those rituals back. And that's why I said from
the beginning, the point of the medicine is sacred
and it cannot be served in a different way. For
me, my beliefs. Obviously, they saw that people
are really different than me. And that's okay.
And I think the ceremonies and the rituals make
a huge difference in the way that people receive
the medicine, how deep they actually go into
their own healing process and how lasting that
can be. Well, expand on that then. What are your
fears? Because, for example, we all know now
that in the States, there are a lot of... drug
companies that make a lot of money synthesizing
what is originally a natural product, whether
it's insulin, whether it's even cigarettes. You
talked about tobacco. What is in a cigarette
now is engineered to be as addictive as possible
versus what might have been used by the Native
American a few hundred years ago. So what are
your fears as far as where this could be abused?
And what would the right kind of offering look
like, even if it was replicated in the... us
for example but obviously ideally in in the country
that it originates so i don't know if the word
is fear what i feel i think it's a little bit
of sadness and i have gone through a range of
different emotions right going from anger anger
has been a big one um you know cultural appropriation
comes to mind as well Well, you're taking something
that I'm not saying only native tradition can
have this medicine. That's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying, these medicines are here for
all human beings to benefit from. But there is
a way to offer this medicine that are honoring
the ancestors and the tradition and the culture
where the medicine comes from. First, I became
really angry when they're talking about mixed
feelings about the legalization process. But
the synthesizing, the taking the components,
or maybe becoming commercialized, or maybe it's
going to be a pill. And then it's not going to
be different than cigarettes and the nicotine.
It's not going to be different than an SSRI.
And then sadness kind of hit me a little bit.
I don't want this sacred medicine to be prostituted.
That's the word. At the end of the day, it's
not what I want. It's not what I feel. But I
am in a point of acceptance that whatever happens
is going to happen because it's a process of
human beings learning how to deal with. these
healing processes. And there will be always minds,
human beings, not connected with their own consciousness.
They're acting from a place of unconsciousness
to benefit, to make profit from it. I can't blame
them because they are not awake. They are not
connected to consciousness. And like I said earlier,
we can grab them by the arms and say, like, wake
up. No, it's on their own time, their own process.
What we can do is only promote in a very gentle,
compassionate way, and we can be the examples.
Listen, you know, this is sacred medicine. It
is here for everybody. There is a process. There's
a way to do this. This is the way that you prepare
yourself. These are not chemical compounds. These
are not just one molecule of 5 -amyl DMT. This
is not just psilocin. This is not just mescaline.
This is not just ibogaine. These are plants and
animals that have a spirit that are helping us
to heal, to become more aware, to wake up to
consciousness, to heal ourselves, to reconnect.
with the higher self, to reconnect with the source.
And for that process to happen, you have to follow
the process, which our ancestors did. So you
have to clean yourself. You have to prepare yourself
so that your body and your mind is ready to receive
the medicine and the spirit. of the medicine
to reconnect with your own spirit where the magic
happened. And together, in the case of PTSD,
find the fragments of the soul that have been
dispersed because of the trauma, bring it back
together into your physical body so you can feel
better. But can we actually do that in a society
where the pill is more welcome than a process?
The pill instead of the ritual and the ceremony
and the personal responsibility in this healing
process is more important. The pill, the medicine
is just the catalyst. Remember what Maria Sabina
says. Maria Sabina says, you are the medicine.
We are the medicine. But are we willing to put
the effort into reuniting with our own medicine?
to get out of our head, to reunite, walk that
journey to the heart, and to do the work. Not
too many people are willing to do that. And of
course, if somebody, pharmaceutical company,
politician, whatever, is telling you, here is
a quick solution for your problem, our conditioned
mind is going to take that. Not everybody, but
a lot of people will go that route. And I guess
that is not my fear. It's just, I have... come
to accept it but like i said at the beginning
you know it's whoever needs to be here to receive
the medicine in a traditional way will and there
is a space for everybody it does make so much
sense and it's something i talked about recently
with these glp -1 drugs that they have for weight
loss at the moment i think they absolutely have
a place in the morbidly obese where maybe bariatric
surgery was the alternative and very, very dangerous.
I've lost two friends because of that. But now
it's being seen as a quick fix. And just to your
point, let's say I took a drug and now I've lost
100 pounds. My cardiovascular system isn't really
any healthier. My mental state isn't healthier
because I haven't had the discipline of going
to the gym. I haven't sweat. I haven't been uncomfortable,
as you said. The nutrition side, my body hasn't
been satiated with all the nutrients that it
needs through the correct diet that I should
have been eating. So is it a tool? Yes. Is SSRI
a tool when someone's manic or deeply, deeply
depressed just to pull them from the void temporarily?
Yeah, maybe. But it was never meant to be, as
you said, a 20 -year prescription. That's completely
irresponsible. So I couldn't agree more. We've
obviously been conditioned to be. to need this
quick fix because this is what we're told this
is what our society is but it's as you said that
the ceremony the process the the location of
you know this this you know plant medicine um
that is where the healing is and even just to
use a synthetic conversation for a moment ketamine
where i've heard the ketamine success stories
of when they're with someone who's leading them
through almost like a shaman on the ketamine
side when i've heard that it didn't work because
they just stuck it in their arm and they walked
out the door and no one was guiding them so even
though that's a much more clinical example it's
the same kind of thing it's the work that's really
doing it and the the medicines are certainly
assisting but without the work what have you
got you've got a quick fix pill and you know
you might you might feel good for a moment but
you know there's not that long -term game i'm
assuming Right. And everything narrows back to
the idea that we are in this moment, in this
physical body, and in this physical world, in
this beautiful schoolhouse called Earth, to remember
who we are, to remember where we come from. And
to open ourselves up to consciousness, to understand
that we are consciousness. And if we're numbing
ourselves with all these prescriptions, all these
synthetic medicines, we are closing the doors
and the gates to that possibility. We are wasting
one lifetime away of the possibilities of releasing.
and layers of trauma that we carry from this
life and past. But I also understand that some,
in the case of kids, can break a suicidal ideation
of somebody who is depressed in the moment and
can't come out of it. It's a quick fix. And definitely
I agree with that. But there's got to be then
what is next now that I... I pull somebody out
and you're not suicidal anymore. I said, let's
look at what is the problem. And it is not, this
is not easy. It's a process. But are you willing
to actually go through that process of exploration
and to realize that what is it that you need
to let go? What is it that you're stuck with?
And sometimes also, are you willing to, did you
want to let it go? Whatever it is, it's stuck
with you. Absolutely. How did you come across
Tim and Anja? And let's just talk about the SIREN
project for all the first responders listening
that probably didn't even realize that this was
an option for them as well. Yeah, actually I
met Angela first. Angela, she went to a retreat
where I was facilitating. in Rosarito, in between
Tijuana and Rosarito, with another organization
called the Mission Within. And I was working
with Martín. Martín Polanco is the founding director
of that organization. And so Angela came for
the weekend. I think it was two and a half days,
three days, and did medicine. I was facilitating.
When she came out of that retreat and that experience,
she said, I need to bring this medicine. to my
first responders, to my people. I need to do
something about it. And we stay in touch. But
I think a year later, she texted me and she said,
hey, I got an organization. It's called the Siren
Project. And we need to talk about sending new
people. So yeah, so she did. And she sent the
first group. I think it was. I don't know, three,
four years ago. I can't remember now. We have
done 17 tries. And so the first one that came
to the retreat was try one. It was actually Tim,
her husband, and a few other firefighters. They
were all firefighters. And that was the first,
actually, retreat that we did for silent. It
was beautiful. I did it in the same way that
I like to do the retreats, you know, bringing
that spiritual healing into the healing process.
And they love it. I mean, Angela already kind
of knew my way of working and Tim needed convincing,
I guess, because he didn't know me by then. But
I guess Angela told him. You need to see how
these things are done there and just try. And
so he was sold in the idea that this is the way
to do it. So I am very grateful. I absolutely
love those two. They're very close to my heart.
They trust me and they send people and they let
me run the ceremonies the traditional way and
they love it. And I'm very grateful to them.
No, it's amazing. I think this is the conversation
now is, you know, obviously you have the whole
prohibition thing up here. And from a synthetic
point of view, obviously another one that seems
to be working very well is MDMA led psychotherapy
as well. So that's another conversation. But
for us to have the ability to come to Mexico
and go through this healing, because one of the
saddest things I hear in many of these interviews.
people that have been presented just with you
know psych meds and talk therapy and they end
up sitting in front of someone through an eap
program who's just not even qualified to work
with first responders and they have this awful
experience and now they've you know they've lost
hope Um, there's so many people that are desperate
and I know that there's several of my friends
that went through the siren project that have
been down with you and they, it was absolutely
life -changing. I had another firefighter introduced
to me. We sent him to a different one. Um, but
the first day he said, you know, he was, it was
stupid. It doesn't work. You know, what a waste
of time. And he was suicidal. He'd come out of
alcoholism, become sober, gone back into alcoholism.
And he said, day two, the second ceremony, he
said, including. Becoming a firefighter and the
birth of my children, it was the most powerful
experience he ever had. And it completely saved
his life. There's no other way to describe it.
So hearing the success stories firsthand of how
powerful this experience is, and then obviously
the ongoing integration after that, it's a ray
of hope in a profession where so many people
are so desperate and so hopeless. So I think
it's... So incredible. And, you know, kudos to
you and obviously all the generations prior that
even created this in the first place. But to
Angela and Tim to create something so powerful
that now first responders in the U .S. and Canada,
you know, can come down and get their healing
as well. Yeah. Yeah, we are very blessed, all
of us, to actually be able to find each other.
and to work together to do this, to offer this,
this place of healing for people to come and
to have hope that they can have a better life,
they can truly live their life from that hard
space. But it's people that are really willing
to do the work, you know what I mean? It's people
that are willing to put the hard work into it.
So, yeah, I am absolutely blessed. I absolutely
love what I do. I adore Angela and team. They
do. And all the first responders, firefighters,
police officers, wow. Yeah, they have a really
warm place in my heart. They know that. I tell
them all the time, you're stuck with me. And
I do. You know, we have 17 tribes, according
to the 18, and we have a group in Signal. And
I am very active on that group. And I do. I do
care for each of them, each and every one of
them. Well, I'll put the links on the website.
I think the Siren Project's website, if I remember,
was either thesirenproject or sirenproject .org,
but I'll put it on there. I think you can Google
that and they're the ones that come up. Where
can people find Red Path Spiritual Healing Retreats
if they want to look at your website? Oh, I have
a website that I put together because I was supposed
to look professional, I guess. I don't use it.
Again, you know, it's called the Red Path Retreat
.org. But the thing is, I am not commercial.
I only do these retreats for nonprofit organizations.
Once in a while, I will do a retreat for all
hands, meaning like self -pay, but end up being
alumni from different organizations. So I don't
promote the Red Path because it's not commercial.
I don't do retreat and say, like, come to my
retreat. Like I say again, you know, the people
that need to be here will be here. I don't see
that's going to change. So I do have the website,
but it's just for information, I guess. What
about veterans? Which nonprofits normally send
people to you? So Vets, no, Vets, they send spouses.
Heroic Heart Project, absolutely love Jesse.
Yeah, it's my boy. Jesse and Hope is also in
partnership with Heroic Heart Project that is
run by Alison Wilson. I love that woman, too.
And she sent spouses. And for a little bit, Invisible
Wound, which is Alison Wilson's husband, Jonathan
Wilson's organization. And so, yeah, it is Heroic
Heart Project. hope, vets, and invisible wounds
and desire. And so the latest one is a partnership
that I just developed. Actually, I'm super excited
because it's my next retreat is with an organization
called Save a Warrior. They have been doing a
lot of beautiful work based on psycho -spiritual
approach. to healing and I have known them since
2010 when I was working at Nyko I actually met
the founding director Jake and one of those beautiful
synchronicities we reconnected and he sent somebody
to observe one of my retreats actually I invited
Justin which I have grown to absolutely love
him too And he observed one of my retreats with
Siren, which was an ayahuasca retreat in November.
And he was fascinated. And he said, we have never
done any kind of psychedelic medicine retreats,
but we will with you. So now they're going to
start sending people. And the first one is actually
coming up now in March. So I'm super excited
about that. and see how it goes because it's
an organization that has been around forever.
And we're finally actually partnering to do retreats
for the alumni. So the participants are people
that have gone through the Sable Warrior retreats,
and now they're going to come and do medicine
with me. So those are the organizations. work
with that's amazing it was jake clark that opened
my eyes to the childhood trauma in in our profession
so it's amazing now you know with with all the
successes i've heard i just had uh um one of
their alumni on just literally last week who
uses a lot of equine therapy now as well but
to go through that and then to integrate the
psychedelic medicine as well. I mean, that just
sounds incredible. So it's really amazing to
watch these organizations, these amazing humans
now start to cross -pollinate what they're doing.
It's kind of funny because I heard of three firefighters,
or first responders, should I say. casually they
dropped, you know, like, oh, yeah, I went to
the Save a Warrior. And then I heard that two
or three times, and I said, Save a Warrior? It's
like, is it still around? And then I got curious
because I said, you know, when I was at NICO,
actually, I met Jake, and I went to this place,
and I, you know, I don't even remember. I think
I did a meditation class for the retreat. I can't
remember, 2010. So I actually sent an email to
Jake, and I said, hey, Jake. are you still doing
retreats? Because I heard that three of the firefighters,
first responders actually have gone there. So
he was like, of course I remember you. And we
got the conversation going. And it's funny because
he was against doing psychedelic, but the people,
the alumni have been asking for it. So he saw
that I was pretty much asking him to send me
people, I guess. And I was like, no, no, no,
that's not my intention. Trust me, I have plenty
of retreat I have. But I just wanted to see how
are you doing and how is the organization doing?
And then the next thing that I heard from him
is like, by the way, I'm sending you somebody
so you can show them what you do. And I was like,
okay, we'll see. And then from that interaction
with Justin, one of his directors, now we have...
Four retreats lined up for 2026 and who knows
what else next year. So like I say, it's synchronicities,
you know, people that really need to come together
to be able to show and to offer these healing
processes to other human beings. We come together,
we find each other, base away. It just happens.
Absolutely. Well, I want to thank you so much.
It's been such an amazing conversation. Thank
you so much for trusting me with your story.
But as we see so often, you know, it's people
that have gone through their own healing journeys
that are usually, you know, the beacons of light
for everyone else. And to give up the structure
and stability that you had working with the military
and, you know, grab your chihuahua and drive
south and help veterans and first responders,
I think it's phenomenal. I want to thank you
so, so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
No, I am grateful to you and obviously the Connectors
Angel and team. Yeah, it was wonderful talking
to you. Thank you so much for inviting me. I
feel very honored and very humbled. an honor
to continue working to offering this to their
first responders and veterans.