WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by yet another incredible

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company that I stand behind fully, and that is

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Bubs Naturals. Now, I've not only used Bubs products

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for four years now, but I've also had the founder,

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Sean Lake, on the show twice. And they are offering

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you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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that code in a moment. Now, Bubz has a very powerful

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in Benghazi. And wanting to honor his best friend,

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Sean stood up this company. Now, it began with

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their flagship product, which is their collagen.

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And I have to say, as a Brit with really dry

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skin who's now 51, I cannot underline the importance

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of collagen in your diet. I have seen a huge

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positive impact on my skin, nails, hair, and

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That's the part of coconut oil that is good for

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depending on your diet. Now, most recently, I've

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started adding in creatine to my diet. Another

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thing that I've been told is good for our brain

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health. And with so many of us being exposed

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elements of this company, in my opinion, is that

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they are a social business, meaning 10 % of their

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profits go to charity. And in this case, that

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is the Glenn Doherty Foundation. Now, as I mentioned

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before, they are offering you, the audience of

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the Behind the Shield podcast, 20 % off your

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entire order if you use the code BTS at bubsnaturals

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.com. And if you want to hear more about the

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products, the backstory, and how Sean used Glenn's

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story to help other veterans, listen to episodes

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558 and 1055 of the Behind the Shield podcast.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

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always, my name is James Geering, and this week

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it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show

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veteran firefighter and special operations team

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member Rob Moore. Now, in this conversation,

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we discuss a host of topics from Rob's journey

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into the fire service, firefighter fitness, the

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recruitment crisis, some of his notable career

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calls, his own powerful mental health story,

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refinding his faith, catharsis through sailing,

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and so much more. Now, before we get to this

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incredible conversation, as I say every week,

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please just take a moment. Go to whichever app

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you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 1 ,200 episodes

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now. So all I ask in return is that you help

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share these incredible men and women's stories

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so I can get them to every single person on planet

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Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being

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said, I introduce to you Rob Moore. Enjoy. Well,

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Rob, I want to start by saying thank you so much

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for taking the time and coming on the Behind

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the Shield podcast today. Thanks for having me.

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I'm honored to be here. So you have a pretty

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unique answer to the first question I always

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ask. Where on planet Earth are we finding you

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today? Well, today, as it's been for a little

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while, is in Merritt Island, Florida. My wife

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and I live aboard our boat. And the plan has

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been to travel. And we're still working towards

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that. We've had some setbacks, but yeah. So right

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now, Merritt Island, right next to Cape Canaveral,

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Cocoa Beach area. Beautiful. Well, we'll get

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obviously to that transition and what you're

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hoping to do in a little bit. Let's start at

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the very beginning of your timeline then. So

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tell me where you were born and tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. Okay, so. I was born

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in Ohio, which I'm somewhat ashamed of and try

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to hide. I think I've probably lied about that

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before. Because growing up in Florida, since

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I don't know about kindergarten or first grade,

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kind of have a little bit of that Southern culture

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feel that wants to hide some of that Northern

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stuff. But now there's a lot of good folks up

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there. And anyways, born in Ohio. When I was

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very, very, very young, my family moved to Marietta,

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Georgia. My dad took a job there. And then when

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I was in like tween kindergarten and first grade,

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we moved to St. Cloud, Florida. And that's pretty

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much was the rest of it, you know, on into the

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fire service and whatever else. But as far as

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a family goes, culturally, coming back to that

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north -south kind of a mutt, my mother was from

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South Carolina with, you know, darling and honey

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and sugar and all that. And my dad was from the

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Boston area, south of Boston and from Springfield,

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Mass. And so, you know, kind of culturally have

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cousins on both sides of the fence, those that

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can't pronounce an R and those that, you know,

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sweet tea, the spoon will stand up in the middle.

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But as far as the family dynamic, my dad at a

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young age was a church organist and they both

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were teachers. And so, you know, I was, you know,

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Church and all of that was a big part of our

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lives growing up. It was sort of mandatory. There

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was no way around that. Well, I know we're going

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to get into spirituality in a little bit. When

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you reflect back now, growing up in that environment

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where you said church was there whether you liked

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it or not, did that, as you progress early life

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as far as an adult, keep you leaning into your

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faith or did it push you away like some people

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find? Early life, it kept me leaning in. I mean,

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as any other young kid, you know, church was

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boring and I wasn't into it and just you went

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because you didn't have a choice. I really, it

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meant a lot to me through probably my high school

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years and whatnot. It was very real to me. And

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so early life, I would say I leaned into it and

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to heading off to college and starting the fire

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service. And there was a time later on that I

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definitely decided that, I don't know, maybe

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it wasn't for me anymore. you know at that time

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anyway what about sports and exercise what were

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you playing during the high school ages uh it's

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a very small high school uh believe it or not

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and um they didn't offer a ton so i played basketball

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because it was pretty much you know there was

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no football there was definitely no hockey um

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so i played basketball i wasn't very good at

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it and um you know but uh but you know i did

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always grow up playing different sports when

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i was younger i played a little bit of hockey

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and whatnot just with my dad But, yeah, that

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was about it for sports, I guess, as far as through

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high school anyway. So we'll get to the police

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and fire hockey that you played later on. So

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that was the hockey influence as your dad? Yep.

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My dad having those Boston, New England kind

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of roots. He named me. This is a bit debatable

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if my family were sitting here, but him and I

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talked. There was a Boston Bruins player named

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Bobby Orr and probably the greatest defenseman

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of all time. He, you know, Robert Gordon or was

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his name. So, you know, he named me Robert Moore.

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You know, I don't know why my middle name wasn't

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Gordon, but I think he had to pick a middle name

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from a cousin or somebody else to honor someone

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else in the family. And yeah, so he named me

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after a great Bruins hockey player. And I, you

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know, obviously didn't possess anywhere near

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that level of talent, but I had a lot of fun

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and I grew up kind of playing with my dad a little

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bit. And, you know, him trying to toughen me

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up and teach me a little bit about the game.

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What about career aspirations? Why are you still

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in high school? What were you dreaming of becoming?

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Well, honestly, you know, like I think probably

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even in like seventh, eighth grade, I knew that

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I either wanted to join the Marine Corps, the

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Navy, which I know the two of those give each

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other a lot of crap. But I wanted to be either,

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you know, because I've always loved the ocean.

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I either wanted to be a full time sailor or Marine.

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Or either police or fire. I hadn't really decided,

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but I knew one of those. And my dad and mom had

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been, you know, teachers and professors. And,

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you know, it was like through high school when

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I was voicing that, it was like I was, you know,

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I was in trouble, so to speak. It was like, no,

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that's not happening. You're going to college.

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You know, like that's not even an option. You're

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going to college. That was what I explored. That's

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what I had wanted. I think on career day in high

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school, I had gone down to the fire station in

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St. Cloud and talked to some of the guys and

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was just really impressed with just how laid

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back and genuine they were. You know, how they

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picked on each other, but out of a sense of brotherhood

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and love. You know what I mean? It was just,

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I really liked those guys who thought they were

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cool. My dad had owned a daycare center in a

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Christian school in St. Cloud. And when I'd work

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there after school in high school, the kids that

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would get picked up early, you know, like, you

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know, three 34 o 'clock, they hadn't barely been

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out of school a while by their dads and their

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dads would come out and play basketball with

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the other kids or football. If we were playing

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with the kids and we, and we just, they were

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fun guys. And I was like, man, what does this

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guy do for a living? He's picking his kid up

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at like three 30. And you know, they were, they

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were firing, you know, they just let their kids

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basically go to afterschool for an hour or two

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to play. And they were always like the most laid

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back, you know, kind of just good guys to hang

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out with. So that started steering me that way

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through high school. I was like, yeah, I definitely

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am interested in that career. With both your

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parents being in education, did you have any

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conversations with them as far as the evolution

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or devolution of education throughout their career?

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No. You know, my parents. I think, and I'm not

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faulting them for anything, you know, no one's

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perfect. And of course, I think in that era,

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you know what I mean? That it was more like they

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didn't really, they weren't explained much to

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them by their parents. They were just told, do

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this and shut up, you know? And I think, you

00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:16.480
know, there was some of that sort of leftover.

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They didn't really know how to articulate or

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explain things clearly. It was just like, they,

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they really were looking at what was, they thought

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what was best for you. And you're just supposed

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to do that and not ask a lot of questions. So

00:11:27.860 --> 00:11:29.480
no, I don't think we really had deep conversations

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about that. Well, with that being said, obviously,

00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:34.600
we're going to talk about your mental health

00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:38.700
journey. One thing that I really began to seeing

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over and over again through all these interviews

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that I did was the prevalence of childhood struggles,

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trauma. in people that then ended up putting

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a uniform on, first responders, military, et

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cetera. And there's science behind showing that

00:11:51.250 --> 00:11:53.950
we have an ACE, an adverse childhood experience

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score of six out of 10, most of us, as do incarcerated

00:11:58.830 --> 00:12:02.470
people. So it's all about that crossroads. When

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you reflect back now, were there elements of

00:12:05.169 --> 00:12:07.169
your upbringing you think that contributed to

00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:11.370
struggles later in life? Honestly, James, and

00:12:11.370 --> 00:12:13.870
I promise I'm not hiding anything. This whole

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interview is one I felt that literally God asked

00:12:16.789 --> 00:12:19.269
me to do. I don't, you know, it's not, I wasn't

00:12:19.269 --> 00:12:20.889
excited about like kind of baring my soul for

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the world. But no, I can swear on a Bible that

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it's like I didn't have, you know, any of those

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abuses. You know what I mean? That like by today's

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standards, you know, being told no, I guess could

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be, you know, and my parents were strict. You

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know, they were very strict. You know, there's

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consequences for your actions. You know, if you

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mess up, if you screw up, then, you know, you

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weren't going to just get a pass. But I was never,

00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:48.320
you know, beat with an inch of my life. And I

00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:49.899
was never, you know, there wasn't those traumas

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that you that I associate with, I think, what

00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:57.039
you're probably leaning towards. So, no, I honestly

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don't think so. You know? Yeah. And that happens,

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too, which is that it's important to look at

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the. backgrounds of people that did struggle,

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look at the backgrounds of people that didn't,

00:13:09.610 --> 00:13:11.950
people kind of in the middle. And I've said this

00:13:11.950 --> 00:13:14.870
on here many, many times. I did have a lot of

00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:17.330
shit in my early life. But what was interesting

00:13:17.330 --> 00:13:21.350
for me is for every bad experience, there was

00:13:21.350 --> 00:13:24.269
what we now know as a healing modality woven

00:13:24.269 --> 00:13:26.389
into my upbringing. So I grew up on a farm. So

00:13:26.389 --> 00:13:28.649
we had all people from all walks of life come

00:13:28.649 --> 00:13:30.509
through the doors. My dad was a veterinary surgeon.

00:13:30.970 --> 00:13:32.990
We were healing animals. We were eating real

00:13:32.990 --> 00:13:35.129
food. We were getting dirty. We were cold. We

00:13:35.129 --> 00:13:37.370
were wet. you know, all the things that we know

00:13:37.370 --> 00:13:40.629
kind of create resilience and help you offload.

00:13:40.690 --> 00:13:42.750
And I'm one of five kids. So we were kind of

00:13:42.750 --> 00:13:45.149
feral children that, you know, probably gave

00:13:45.149 --> 00:13:47.110
each other unofficial therapy throughout the

00:13:47.110 --> 00:13:49.629
whole thing. So I think, you know, whatever someone's

00:13:49.629 --> 00:13:52.350
childhood looks like, it's really important to

00:13:52.350 --> 00:13:54.110
just kind of look at it and go, right, were there

00:13:54.110 --> 00:13:55.710
elements that were negative? Were there elements

00:13:55.710 --> 00:13:57.809
that were positive? You know, so that as you

00:13:57.809 --> 00:13:59.789
factor through, you start seeing these common

00:13:59.789 --> 00:14:02.850
denominators of what seems to be a healthy, you

00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:06.009
know, processing mechanism. And then, you know,

00:14:06.009 --> 00:14:08.350
as we know, like shoving things down, not talking

00:14:08.350 --> 00:14:10.370
about them, for example, what's an unhealthy

00:14:10.370 --> 00:14:14.450
way of coping? Right. And I'm sure there was,

00:14:14.450 --> 00:14:17.110
you know, if I had to sort of draw from what

00:14:17.110 --> 00:14:19.070
you just said, there was definitely some of that.

00:14:19.129 --> 00:14:21.769
My dad, when we moved to St. Cloud, that's when

00:14:21.769 --> 00:14:23.509
he bought the daycare and started the Christian

00:14:23.509 --> 00:14:26.629
school. And it was it was grind, you know, like,

00:14:26.710 --> 00:14:28.870
you know, all the work. And I actually liked

00:14:28.870 --> 00:14:30.169
it. You know, I like to kind of try to impress

00:14:30.169 --> 00:14:32.070
my dad with the work ethic and how much I could

00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:36.789
get done. But yeah, it wasn't enough. You know,

00:14:36.809 --> 00:14:39.549
like I said, I think by by that day's standards,

00:14:39.649 --> 00:14:41.529
it wasn't that different than anyone else's.

00:14:41.549 --> 00:14:44.389
But it wasn't one where it was like, let's discuss

00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:47.129
how that how you feel, you know, or, you know,

00:14:47.129 --> 00:14:49.370
when you messed up and got punished for it, there

00:14:49.370 --> 00:14:51.509
was no like, you know, they're they're coddling

00:14:51.509 --> 00:14:53.169
later. You know, it was just, you know, shut

00:14:53.169 --> 00:14:56.350
up, deal with it, you know, kind of thing. And,

00:14:56.370 --> 00:14:58.710
you know, I guess as far as going to the career,

00:14:58.769 --> 00:15:00.309
when I told, you know, like when I voiced to

00:15:00.309 --> 00:15:01.889
my family in high school and whatnot that, you

00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:03.919
know, I. I really felt that I wanted to look

00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.840
at the fire service. I think, honestly, my dad

00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:09.659
sort of pre -explored it for me. He had been

00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:11.700
in human resources in the corporate world for

00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:14.799
a while and just kind of felt like it was going

00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:16.360
to be really hard at that time for me to get

00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:18.779
hired and that I'd be wasting my time. When I

00:15:18.779 --> 00:15:21.080
look back now, you know, I never got an explanation

00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.519
from him then. I basically just got told, like,

00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:27.539
it's not going to work out. And all I heard was,

00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:29.740
like, him kind of saying, I don't think you can

00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:33.590
do it, you know. Like, yeah, you know, and I

00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:35.990
guess that I've always kind of had a little bit

00:15:35.990 --> 00:15:37.570
of that stiff upper lip. If someone tells me

00:15:37.570 --> 00:15:40.230
I can't do something, my first impulse is like,

00:15:40.309 --> 00:15:43.169
oh, OK, you know, let's let's see. You know what?

00:15:43.210 --> 00:15:45.970
Let me let me see if I can prove you wrong. But

00:15:45.970 --> 00:15:47.970
yeah, I guess that would be it. You know, as

00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:51.610
far as that thread goes. What year was it that

00:15:51.610 --> 00:15:52.990
you were trying to get into the fire service?

00:15:54.450 --> 00:15:57.820
Well, I graduated high school in 94. yeah we're

00:15:57.820 --> 00:16:00.840
starting to get old james i don't know but uh

00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:05.019
and so i wanted to go then and uh like i said

00:16:05.019 --> 00:16:07.539
it wasn't an option so i ended up going to college

00:16:07.539 --> 00:16:12.500
in virginia from florida and um i went two years

00:16:12.500 --> 00:16:15.600
i i had like a work study scholarship i worked

00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.860
in college basketball in division one athletics

00:16:17.860 --> 00:16:20.480
um because when i went to college i thought okay

00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.600
fine if i have to pick something you know that's

00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.039
going to make my parents happy i was pursuing

00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.289
uh basically sports marketing and sports broadcasting,

00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:32.210
I really thought that I could either do that

00:16:32.210 --> 00:16:34.450
or get into coaching, you know, because I really

00:16:34.450 --> 00:16:37.509
value like reading books on leadership. I like

00:16:37.509 --> 00:16:39.169
different, you know, examining different styles

00:16:39.169 --> 00:16:41.529
of leadership. And I thought maybe, you know,

00:16:41.529 --> 00:16:45.169
I could derive meaningful life from leading others,

00:16:45.210 --> 00:16:49.360
even if it was just in sports. And I was pursuing

00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:51.299
that path. But after two years of college and

00:16:51.299 --> 00:16:52.960
I was busting my hump, I've never been a student

00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.259
that can just read it and get it. I have to drill

00:16:55.259 --> 00:16:59.580
on it constantly. And so, I mean, you know, I

00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:03.519
was really grinding hard to barely pull like

00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.799
a B average. And then, of course, working in

00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:09.259
athletics for my scholarship. After two years,

00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:13.059
I was done. I just, I was miserable. I knew that

00:17:13.059 --> 00:17:16.039
the path I was on wasn't what I wanted. I'm like,

00:17:16.059 --> 00:17:18.150
this is not what I want to do with my life. Um,

00:17:18.470 --> 00:17:20.549
there was just no passion or energy for it at

00:17:20.549 --> 00:17:21.970
all. I'm like, this is just not going to work

00:17:21.970 --> 00:17:25.609
out. And I remember I'd come home and for the

00:17:25.609 --> 00:17:28.269
summer and I was working as a lifeguard. I don't

00:17:28.269 --> 00:17:30.049
know if anyone remembers, there was a water park

00:17:30.049 --> 00:17:33.730
in Orlando called water mania. Um, it, and, uh,

00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:35.210
it was kind of awesome. It was also kind of a

00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:38.329
dive towards the end, but you know, uh, but I

00:17:38.329 --> 00:17:40.710
was working at this like nothing job, making

00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:45.079
nothing money. And, um, you know, but I was making

00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:46.779
a rescue from time to time. I was, you know,

00:17:46.779 --> 00:17:49.059
jumping in the, in the way pool and getting somebody

00:17:49.059 --> 00:17:52.359
that I spotted that was going down. And, you

00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:54.420
know, there was always like an off -duty firefighter

00:17:54.420 --> 00:17:56.819
working in the EMS office as an EMT or a paramedic.

00:17:57.500 --> 00:17:59.339
And, you know, I'd always end up talking with

00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:01.319
them and, and joking with them and they'd invite

00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:04.240
me out for drinks and whatnot. And that summer,

00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:08.259
you know, making no money, but what felt like

00:18:08.259 --> 00:18:11.039
making a difference, you know, saving someone's

00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.809
life from time to time. Maybe not as dramatic,

00:18:13.930 --> 00:18:16.029
but, you know, definitely if they'd have been

00:18:16.029 --> 00:18:17.849
ignored, you know, it could have gone really

00:18:17.849 --> 00:18:21.049
bad. And I don't know. I knew that summer that

00:18:21.049 --> 00:18:23.109
I wasn't going back to college. And it was hard

00:18:23.109 --> 00:18:24.569
because I was, you know, I remember sitting on

00:18:24.569 --> 00:18:26.890
the lifeguard chair for agonizing hours. Like,

00:18:26.890 --> 00:18:29.490
am I being a total spoiled brat? Like, am I being

00:18:29.490 --> 00:18:32.089
a jerk? You know, how many kids don't have the

00:18:32.089 --> 00:18:35.670
opportunity I have, you know, to go? And here

00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:38.529
I am in and I'm going and I'm going to ditch,

00:18:38.890 --> 00:18:42.109
you know. Yeah. I was really struggling with

00:18:42.109 --> 00:18:44.509
like, am I being a complete selfish jerk here,

00:18:44.589 --> 00:18:46.650
you know, back and forth to what I want to do

00:18:46.650 --> 00:18:48.829
with my life. And when I finally decided like,

00:18:48.930 --> 00:18:52.670
yep, that's it. Yeah. Having that conversation

00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:54.470
with my dad was probably one of the scariest

00:18:54.470 --> 00:18:56.210
times I've ever had. Cause I really thought he

00:18:56.210 --> 00:18:59.009
was just going to like explode, unload on me,

00:18:59.029 --> 00:19:01.650
call me stupid, a whole nine yards. And, and

00:19:01.650 --> 00:19:03.849
he didn't, it went, it went different. And if

00:19:03.849 --> 00:19:05.269
you want me to tell you that I will, but yeah,

00:19:05.309 --> 00:19:10.480
please. I remember telling him, like I said,

00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:12.519
I was terrified, but I remember telling him,

00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:16.900
like, Dad, I'm not asking you. I'm respectfully

00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:19.859
telling you, like man to man, but I want to make

00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:22.700
it clear that I'm not asking you for your permission

00:19:22.700 --> 00:19:25.000
or blessing on this, but this is just what I

00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:27.339
got to do. Like, I'm not going back to Liberty,

00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:30.259
not going back to college. I'm going to stay

00:19:30.259 --> 00:19:33.579
here. I'm going to pursue my EMT and my fire

00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:36.589
standards. And, uh, and I'm going to be a fireman.

00:19:36.609 --> 00:19:38.849
Like, I know that's what I want to do. I know

00:19:38.849 --> 00:19:41.009
it through and through a hundred percent. And

00:19:41.009 --> 00:19:43.089
I'm not trying to be disrespectful or a jerk,

00:19:43.109 --> 00:19:45.190
but I'm just telling you that's, that's, that's,

00:19:45.190 --> 00:19:48.750
you know, it's decided. And, uh, he just got

00:19:48.750 --> 00:19:51.349
quiet. He was cooking fish on the grill and he

00:19:51.349 --> 00:19:53.289
got really quiet. And like this, you know, he'd

00:19:53.289 --> 00:19:54.930
normally just kind of let me have anything. Somebody

00:19:54.930 --> 00:19:57.970
in stupid, which is what I expected. And it was

00:19:57.970 --> 00:19:59.829
killing me. Cause I thought like, come on done,

00:19:59.930 --> 00:20:01.150
you know, like, let me have it. You know what

00:20:01.150 --> 00:20:04.420
I mean? Like, and, uh, He must have told mom

00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:06.819
because after dinner, instead of helping to clean

00:20:06.819 --> 00:20:08.960
up, you know, he just is like, OK, let's go talk.

00:20:09.140 --> 00:20:12.420
I thought, OK, here we go. And he later kind

00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:16.440
of denied this, you know, but it happened. And

00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:18.579
my dad and I got along great. We had our rough

00:20:18.579 --> 00:20:20.319
patches, but we got along great, especially later

00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.960
in life. I'm really thankful for. But he sat

00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.160
me down. He said, OK, well, it sounds to me like

00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:27.799
you've got it all figured out, you know, and

00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:29.359
you want to be a big man. You want to make all

00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.720
your own choices and decisions. Fine. The room

00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.259
you're living in, you can have till the end of

00:20:35.259 --> 00:20:37.059
the month because you're my kid. But the first

00:20:37.059 --> 00:20:39.000
of the month, the rent's due. And he set some

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:40.720
rent price that was lower than I could get anywhere

00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.900
else. And he's like, and if you don't pay it,

00:20:42.940 --> 00:20:44.779
I'll put your stuff on the sidewalk and change

00:20:44.779 --> 00:20:47.660
the locks. And I knew he meant it. And he's like,

00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:50.480
and the food in the cupboards and in the refrigerator,

00:20:50.619 --> 00:20:52.539
that's your mom and I's. You need to do your

00:20:52.539 --> 00:20:54.660
own groceries. We won't eat your food, but don't

00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:56.180
get caught eating ours or I'll bill you for it.

00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:00.369
Vehicle you're driving, we had made a deal. that

00:21:00.369 --> 00:21:01.849
when I graduated college, he was going to give

00:21:01.849 --> 00:21:03.849
me the title. He had kind of given me a decent

00:21:03.849 --> 00:21:06.210
Jeep to drive around through college. It was

00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:07.450
probably a little nice to know what I rated at

00:21:07.450 --> 00:21:10.250
that stage of life. And he's like, the deal was,

00:21:10.269 --> 00:21:11.630
this is, you know, when you graduate, don't expect

00:21:11.630 --> 00:21:13.450
anything big because, you know, you'll have it

00:21:13.450 --> 00:21:15.910
to use in college. So he said, well, you broke

00:21:15.910 --> 00:21:18.369
the arrangement on that deal. So you're going

00:21:18.369 --> 00:21:20.029
down to the bank tomorrow and I'm going to co

00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:21.329
-sign and you're going to, you're buying me out

00:21:21.329 --> 00:21:22.789
of it. You're making payments on it to the bank.

00:21:23.029 --> 00:21:24.569
And if you don't make the payment, they'll take

00:21:24.569 --> 00:21:26.849
it. It's not my problem. And you need to get

00:21:26.849 --> 00:21:28.410
your own insurance, but the whole nine yards.

00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.619
It was like, and I hope you can figure out how

00:21:30.619 --> 00:21:32.559
to still work and go to school because, you know,

00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:35.039
if you're doing this, you're doing it on your

00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.160
own two feet. You know what I mean? Like you

00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:38.940
need to, you need to do this all on your own.

00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.119
And he said, you know, and you have two years

00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.799
to get it done in my opinion. Cause at that point

00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:44.539
you should have been, I was a, would have been

00:21:44.539 --> 00:21:48.259
a, um, a junior. He, you know, he's like, so

00:21:48.259 --> 00:21:49.579
if you don't, if you haven't pulled it off in

00:21:49.579 --> 00:21:50.880
two years, then you need to get your butt back

00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:55.900
to college. And, um, I, I saw it as lit a fire.

00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.700
I, it definitely left me walking like, okay,

00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:01.059
all right, game on. You know what I mean? Like,

00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:04.779
um, like almost like it kind of, he didn't say

00:22:04.779 --> 00:22:06.500
you can't do it or I don't think you'll do it,

00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:08.319
but it kind of felt like, all right, I had something

00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.700
to prove. And, uh, instead of going out for beers

00:22:10.700 --> 00:22:12.980
after work at the water park, whatever it was

00:22:12.980 --> 00:22:15.079
like, no, every little dime matters. And, uh,

00:22:15.220 --> 00:22:17.880
you know, I just started grinding, you know,

00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:22.859
and, um, yeah, got through EMT. I went through

00:22:22.859 --> 00:22:25.720
fire standards in 90, so this would have been

00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:31.819
like 96, 97, and maybe even 95, 96, I guess,

00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.759
somewhere in there. I may be a little off, but

00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:37.119
I do remember that I was finishing up the fire

00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.740
academy there at Mid -Florida Tech, and somebody

00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:42.740
from the U .S. Navy came in, which was kind of

00:22:42.740 --> 00:22:44.859
funny because I was like, wait, what? And they

00:22:44.859 --> 00:22:47.200
were looking for temporary firefighters for the

00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.900
Orlando Naval Training Center for the base because

00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:52.720
of base closure. all their permanent guys were

00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:54.660
moving on. And so they were like, this doesn't

00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:56.380
lead to a full career. This doesn't, it's just

00:22:56.380 --> 00:22:59.079
temporary status. Who's interested. And the pay

00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:02.940
was pretty terrible, but only two people raised

00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:04.859
their hands. Me and this, me and one other guy,

00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:07.440
everybody else was like an electrician or a plumber.

00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:09.579
Yeah. They're making pretty good money. And I

00:23:09.579 --> 00:23:11.420
was a lifeguard at a water park making nothing.

00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:12.880
So even though the money wasn't great, it was

00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.779
raised. And I saw it as a, as a way in, you know,

00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:19.680
a resume builder. And so, yeah, I, I, I took

00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:23.259
the job. It was awesome. You know, driving on

00:23:23.259 --> 00:23:25.119
the base every morning, I really liked that culture,

00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.059
that really stringent set rules and times and

00:23:28.059 --> 00:23:31.680
raised the flag. And, you know, that was the

00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:33.460
good side of it. And it was a resume builder.

00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.279
The bad side was it was a Navy base and military

00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:39.200
bases. It's really against the rule to do anything

00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.960
stupid versus private sector. So you're not going

00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:45.079
to catch like a lot of good fire or entrapments

00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.599
because. It's against the rules to be stupid.

00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:50.119
So like, you know, you're going to run a few

00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:52.799
medical calls. And, and that, that was about

00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.279
it, you know, and I was kind of bored to tears

00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.079
because I was so young and just really wanting

00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:03.279
to play. And I'm like, man, this is slow. Was

00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.799
that the Naval base near station 73? Off of Bennett

00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:11.059
and 50 area over there. I'm not telling you the

00:24:11.059 --> 00:24:12.460
truth. I never worked that side of Orange County

00:24:12.460 --> 00:24:16.119
much. So I'm trying to think it's. It's like

00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:19.559
at 436 and 50, if you take that a little bit

00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:23.539
west, and there's a road called Bennett, it's

00:24:23.539 --> 00:24:26.680
kind of in that area of Orlando. Okay, because

00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:28.319
I'm trying to remember. That sounds like a different

00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.000
part. But when I worked at 73, sometimes we'd

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:33.160
go there, and I know Orlando had a fire. And

00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:35.420
I remember it because it was a former naval base.

00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:38.700
It was derelict when I got there. But they had

00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:42.460
re -roofed the houses. So Orlando had done a

00:24:42.460 --> 00:24:44.990
vertical ventilation. Only to discover that all

00:24:44.990 --> 00:24:46.589
they've done was just open a hole in the fake

00:24:46.589 --> 00:24:49.470
roof. And they had the flat roof underneath it.

00:24:49.529 --> 00:24:52.069
But I can still see it in my mind. That may have

00:24:52.069 --> 00:24:53.890
been the annex base. It was down by the airport?

00:24:54.349 --> 00:24:57.450
Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, main base was

00:24:57.450 --> 00:25:01.250
engine 18. And then I can't remember who was

00:25:01.250 --> 00:25:04.170
engine. The old school guys would flay me for

00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:05.950
not remembering. But the main base was engine

00:25:05.950 --> 00:25:08.130
18, which I was on most of the time. And there

00:25:08.130 --> 00:25:10.349
was an annex base. I think it was like 74 or

00:25:10.349 --> 00:25:12.730
5 or something. I don't know. 17 maybe. I don't

00:25:12.730 --> 00:25:15.000
know. I'm getting that all wrong, but I know

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.559
there was an ex down there and I would go work,

00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:17.960
you know, I'd get floated down there sometimes.

00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.720
So yeah, that sounds right. So how competitive

00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:23.660
was it around this time when you're trying to

00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:26.460
get hired for a full -time career gig? Oh, I

00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:28.319
was kicking every door that I could kick. You

00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:30.619
know, I was, I tested with St. Cloud, Kissimmee,

00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:32.480
Oslo County, Orange County, Orlando, Brevard

00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.660
County. Like if there, if somebody was offering

00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:37.160
a test, I was taking it. And where I was very

00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.140
fortunate is that most times when you're working

00:25:40.140 --> 00:25:42.779
any job, And you think, you know, you want to

00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:44.759
explore and go somewhere else. You kind of have

00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:46.400
to hide that from your current employer. You

00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:47.740
know what I mean? You can't be very open about

00:25:47.740 --> 00:25:50.880
that. And they knew they were running out on

00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.680
me. You know, they were going to let me go when

00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:59.460
they finally closed. So my shift commander literally

00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:02.859
was a master chief. He was awesome. He was terrifying,

00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:06.170
but he was awesome. If there was a test going

00:26:06.170 --> 00:26:07.829
on somewhere, they would just drop the rig to

00:26:07.829 --> 00:26:09.970
three, give me a Navy base pickup. I didn't even

00:26:09.970 --> 00:26:11.130
have to drive my personal vehicle. And I could

00:26:11.130 --> 00:26:13.809
drive to Brevard County on shift, you know, to

00:26:13.809 --> 00:26:16.490
take a written exam or to do a practical. And

00:26:16.490 --> 00:26:18.410
they would let me train and practice nonstop

00:26:18.410 --> 00:26:21.309
on shift. So it was really great in that regard.

00:26:22.650 --> 00:26:24.569
One side note there where life could have ended

00:26:24.569 --> 00:26:26.750
up very different. And I might not have met you

00:26:26.750 --> 00:26:29.809
or known anyone I know in my life now is towards

00:26:29.809 --> 00:26:31.730
the end of that, it was really winding down.

00:26:33.290 --> 00:26:36.410
And they came to me and said, okay, you're a

00:26:36.410 --> 00:26:39.849
GS3, just like no money. And you're a temporary

00:26:39.849 --> 00:26:43.130
status GS3. I need to know by next shift. Well,

00:26:43.210 --> 00:26:45.890
the federal driver says it's 24 -24. There's

00:26:45.890 --> 00:26:48.230
no C -shift, right? So when you work in overtime,

00:26:48.369 --> 00:26:51.549
it's a 72 -hour run at work. And then you have

00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:53.349
one day off and come back. You know, you had

00:26:53.349 --> 00:26:55.529
a Kelly day, but I don't even remember how it

00:26:55.529 --> 00:27:00.109
worked. You worked a lot of hours. They came

00:27:00.109 --> 00:27:03.009
to me and said, you can go from a GS3 to a GS13,

00:27:03.230 --> 00:27:05.670
a 10 -step pay raise, which is something odd

00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:10.809
in the county to think about steps. But they

00:27:10.809 --> 00:27:13.349
came and said, you can go up 10 steps and you'll

00:27:13.349 --> 00:27:16.410
be permanent status. And we need to know my next

00:27:16.410 --> 00:27:18.170
shift. And there's two assignments you can have.

00:27:18.430 --> 00:27:20.109
Either one, whatever you can fit in a Connex

00:27:20.109 --> 00:27:24.089
box, including your Jeep, you can move. One was

00:27:24.089 --> 00:27:29.269
a naval, I think an air base in Italy. and the

00:27:29.269 --> 00:27:32.210
other one was Key West Naval Air Station. And

00:27:32.210 --> 00:27:34.309
being a fisherman and a surfer and a water guy,

00:27:34.410 --> 00:27:38.589
I was like, ooh. I was quite tempted really on

00:27:38.589 --> 00:27:40.130
either one. I was like, man, I can move to Italy

00:27:40.130 --> 00:27:42.690
or I can move to the Keys, and I can live in

00:27:42.690 --> 00:27:44.710
the Keys affordable because it's on -base housing.

00:27:44.750 --> 00:27:47.309
You're shopping at the PX. I'm like, you know,

00:27:47.430 --> 00:27:49.789
it just – I was like, yep, I'm doing it. I was

00:27:49.789 --> 00:27:53.250
very excited about it, and I had some pretty

00:27:53.250 --> 00:27:57.170
big decisions to make, and I had like 24 hours

00:27:57.170 --> 00:28:00.650
to figure it out. to get my answer. And it was

00:28:00.650 --> 00:28:03.710
a long 24 hours, but ultimately I decided, I'm

00:28:03.710 --> 00:28:06.250
like, you know, I started down this path to be

00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:09.670
a fireman. I want to be a fireman. I don't want

00:28:09.670 --> 00:28:13.829
to just be one entitled. You know, I don't want

00:28:13.829 --> 00:28:15.910
to just tell my friends or neighbors that that's

00:28:15.910 --> 00:28:17.690
what I am. I want, I want to be one. I want to

00:28:17.690 --> 00:28:20.490
play. I want to, I want to do what one does.

00:28:21.230 --> 00:28:24.670
And I struggled with it and I didn't have a job

00:28:24.670 --> 00:28:27.210
anywhere. I was on Orlando's list. Orange County's

00:28:27.210 --> 00:28:31.490
list, Osceola County's list, and I think either

00:28:31.490 --> 00:28:33.210
St. Cloud or Kissimmee's, I can't recall, but

00:28:33.210 --> 00:28:35.849
it was on three or four lists. As you know, you've

00:28:35.849 --> 00:28:37.250
done everything, you're on the list somewhere,

00:28:37.390 --> 00:28:39.690
we might get to you, we might not, as far as

00:28:39.690 --> 00:28:43.029
offering employment. And it's a tough call to

00:28:43.029 --> 00:28:47.549
make. But I went in and told Master Chief Williams,

00:28:47.710 --> 00:28:49.670
I said, you know, with all due respect, I'm going

00:28:49.670 --> 00:28:52.049
to have to politely decline. And you stood at

00:28:52.049 --> 00:28:55.690
like parade rest and saluted and, you know. He

00:28:55.690 --> 00:28:58.349
said, I remember being young and dumb. He said,

00:28:58.390 --> 00:29:00.009
you're being an idiot. He said, but I get it.

00:29:00.250 --> 00:29:03.369
He said, I understand. And he's like, good luck

00:29:03.369 --> 00:29:07.109
to you. And so, yeah, that job went away and

00:29:07.109 --> 00:29:09.569
actually completely went away. And I wasn't picked

00:29:09.569 --> 00:29:11.430
up anywhere yet. I was still on everyone's list.

00:29:13.309 --> 00:29:16.269
Went to work for an ice rink in Kissimmee. And

00:29:16.269 --> 00:29:18.450
as long as I'm bearing my soul, I think I might

00:29:18.450 --> 00:29:19.730
win the award for the world's most embarrassing

00:29:19.730 --> 00:29:22.210
job. I went in there to the ice rink because

00:29:22.210 --> 00:29:23.789
I thought, well, I'll be a skate guard. I get

00:29:23.789 --> 00:29:25.750
to spend a ton of time on the ice. I'll get to

00:29:25.750 --> 00:29:28.609
play more hockey. You know what I mean? Who cares?

00:29:28.650 --> 00:29:30.769
It's a nonsense job, but, you know, it's a job.

00:29:31.710 --> 00:29:34.150
And it was like I'd been there maybe three, four

00:29:34.150 --> 00:29:36.170
days. And they came and they said, well, it's

00:29:36.170 --> 00:29:37.950
a kid's birthday party. You got to put on the

00:29:37.950 --> 00:29:42.750
purple dinosaur. I'm like, what? So I've been

00:29:42.750 --> 00:29:47.609
Barney on ice, I guess, if you will, with kids

00:29:47.609 --> 00:29:49.769
hanging off you and, you know. It was, yeah,

00:29:49.809 --> 00:29:51.329
it was terrible. At least you had the head on.

00:29:51.369 --> 00:29:55.089
No one could tell it was you. But, you know,

00:29:55.089 --> 00:29:57.069
just waiting to get the call somewhere, you know.

00:29:57.730 --> 00:30:01.170
And I remember in the same week, I got letters

00:30:01.170 --> 00:30:04.269
from both Osceola County and Orange County. In

00:30:04.269 --> 00:30:06.210
the meantime, I had been volunteering for Osceola

00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:08.990
County. I don't know if you recall John Haskett.

00:30:09.470 --> 00:30:13.450
Yeah, yeah. John Haskett and John Byrne. I know,

00:30:13.450 --> 00:30:17.170
you know, I know Byrne's one of my best friends

00:30:17.170 --> 00:30:23.140
to this day. They were out there at Kings Point.

00:30:24.099 --> 00:30:27.160
And I had started at Kissimmee Heights as a volunteer

00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:31.259
in Oslo County and BVL area. And they were like,

00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:32.859
man, you need to come out here to Kings Point,

00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:35.859
you know, come out here with us. And I still

00:30:35.859 --> 00:30:37.660
to this day feel like there's nothing about the

00:30:37.660 --> 00:30:39.299
fire service that John Haskett doesn't know off

00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:42.839
the top of his head. And he's not making it up.

00:30:43.780 --> 00:30:45.500
Uh, so I went out there cause I was like, man,

00:30:45.539 --> 00:30:47.019
these guys are impressive. There was a couple

00:30:47.019 --> 00:30:49.240
of Orlando guys out there too. And it was just

00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:51.960
guys that really knew the craft, you know? And

00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:53.819
I, and I thought, yeah, I definitely want to

00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:55.960
want to volunteer out here cause it's just a

00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.160
chance to learn a bunch more. And, um, yeah,

00:30:59.259 --> 00:31:00.980
so I went out there and I was volunteering for

00:31:00.980 --> 00:31:03.160
Osceola and I ended up getting a letter from

00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.079
Orange County and Osceola in the same week. And,

00:31:06.099 --> 00:31:10.099
um, the thing that had kind of turned me cold

00:31:10.099 --> 00:31:11.640
towards Osceola County or I probably would have

00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:13.329
gone there. was I'd gone through their whole

00:31:13.329 --> 00:31:16.410
process, and I sat in their interview, and I

00:31:16.410 --> 00:31:19.109
had worked. It was really bad tornadoes that

00:31:19.109 --> 00:31:22.289
had gone through central Florida in like 96,

00:31:22.390 --> 00:31:25.990
97 -ish, and they were pretty terrible. It was

00:31:25.990 --> 00:31:28.250
like some F -4s, and it was pretty significant

00:31:28.250 --> 00:31:32.150
damage. And I had been working at the Navy base

00:31:32.150 --> 00:31:34.589
at the time, but that night I was off. My pager

00:31:34.589 --> 00:31:37.910
went off, and I went out and responded, and I

00:31:37.910 --> 00:31:40.289
worked a lot of that with John Byrne. And it

00:31:40.289 --> 00:31:44.049
was probably my first introduction into real

00:31:44.049 --> 00:31:47.230
nasty trauma, you know, as far as fire service,

00:31:47.390 --> 00:31:50.150
you know, seeing what you see. It was pretty

00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:52.970
gnarly. It was bad. And, you know, I worked that

00:31:52.970 --> 00:31:55.509
for like, I don't know, 16, 18 hour day. I was

00:31:55.509 --> 00:31:56.869
exhausted. I had to go back to the Navy base

00:31:56.869 --> 00:32:00.410
the next day. The PTSD counselor that night,

00:32:00.549 --> 00:32:03.490
sort of a shame to say that I think Bern and

00:32:03.490 --> 00:32:05.730
I both made her cry and maybe quit being a counselor.

00:32:06.549 --> 00:32:08.329
because they put us in this tent, and we were

00:32:08.329 --> 00:32:09.970
exhausted. And he had to go to work in Orange

00:32:09.970 --> 00:32:11.410
County the next day, I think, and I had to go

00:32:11.410 --> 00:32:13.450
to the Navy base. And we were just exhausted.

00:32:13.930 --> 00:32:16.609
And she just kept needling us, and she was pretty

00:32:16.609 --> 00:32:19.349
young and pretty naive, just didn't really have

00:32:19.349 --> 00:32:21.670
a lot of background dealing with firefighters.

00:32:22.650 --> 00:32:24.789
And she kept needling to, how do you feel, and

00:32:24.789 --> 00:32:26.230
how do you feel, and how do you feel? And I just

00:32:26.230 --> 00:32:28.130
didn't feel like talking. I just felt quiet.

00:32:28.690 --> 00:32:30.609
And I knew I wasn't going to go home and, like,

00:32:30.650 --> 00:32:33.269
you know, hurt myself or hurt anyone else. I

00:32:33.269 --> 00:32:35.799
was just, you know. I just didn't know how to

00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:37.279
process everything I was dealing with. I just

00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:40.119
felt quiet. And so I just kept saying, I'm fine,

00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:42.500
I'm good. You know, like, I'm good. You know,

00:32:42.500 --> 00:32:44.079
because like I said, I knew I wasn't going to

00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:47.140
hurt myself for doing anything dumb. I just wasn't

00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:48.700
really sure how to connect the dots on everything

00:32:48.700 --> 00:32:52.279
else that I was dealing with. I had found a two

00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:55.359
-year -old in a pond that we'd been looking for

00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:57.559
for, they'd been looking for for about, I don't

00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:01.559
know, a day and a half or so. So, or maybe that's

00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:02.920
not true. It couldn't have been. It was the night

00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:07.099
after. I got that part wrong. But anyway, nonetheless,

00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.259
she kept needling. And Burton's just kind of

00:33:10.259 --> 00:33:12.099
looking at me and he's getting mad and I'm getting

00:33:12.099 --> 00:33:14.960
mad. And finally, I just let her have it. I'm

00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:16.559
like, you want to know how I feel? You really

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:18.319
want to know how I feel? And I just unloaded.

00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:19.880
You know what I mean? Like I was kind of being

00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:22.079
a jerk. Like both barrels, I just let her have

00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.079
it. I just like painted this picture of the whole

00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:26.920
scene and just kind of how disturbing and disgusting

00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:29.680
the whole thing was. And I just, and she started

00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:31.039
crying. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:33.549
I'm like, no, we're not done. And I just kept

00:33:33.549 --> 00:33:34.750
letting her have it. I'm like, you want to know

00:33:34.750 --> 00:33:36.730
how I feel? I'm like, how do you think I feel?

00:33:36.829 --> 00:33:39.369
And I just let her have the whole thing. And

00:33:39.369 --> 00:33:43.450
I think she sort of decided maybe that counseling

00:33:43.450 --> 00:33:47.250
firefighters wasn't for her. And I'm not, I guess

00:33:47.250 --> 00:33:49.190
I shouldn't be laughing. I'm not really proud

00:33:49.190 --> 00:33:51.869
of that. But, you know, it was kind of like I

00:33:51.869 --> 00:33:54.509
wasn't ready to talk about it. And I just got

00:33:54.509 --> 00:33:55.890
needle to the point of like, you're not allowed

00:33:55.890 --> 00:33:58.930
to go home until you open up. So it wasn't pretty

00:33:58.930 --> 00:34:02.940
when I did. But, yeah, so that being said, I

00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:05.460
went to Elsa Kennedy's interview, right? And

00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:07.779
they were like, oh, yeah, you're a volunteer

00:34:07.779 --> 00:34:09.559
for us. You have been for a while now. You're

00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:11.280
working at the Navy base. I remember the chief

00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:13.440
was like, that's unreal that you work sometimes

00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.320
72 -hour shifts, you know, and then you still

00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:17.980
find time to volunteer for us. And he's like,

00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:19.500
and I remember you working the tornado with us.

00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:21.480
That was how you doing? Are you okay? And I'm

00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:24.000
like, wow. I was thinking, like, I'm in. You

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.820
know, I was like, these guys know me. Like, I'm

00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:27.579
in. And he got to the end of the interview and

00:34:27.579 --> 00:34:31.400
said, duh. You know, we really like to see we

00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.639
like to hire from volunteer numbers that we see

00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:35.679
are a little higher, you know, than what you've

00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:39.019
been turning in. And I'm thinking, like, you

00:34:39.019 --> 00:34:41.519
just painted to me the picture of how busy I

00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:43.980
am with many times 72 hour shifts and still coming

00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:46.420
around for a little bit for volunteering. And

00:34:46.420 --> 00:34:48.079
you basically just told me face to face, which

00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:50.639
I guess I appreciate. Yeah, we're not we're not

00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:54.340
going to hire you. And I was like, I just sat

00:34:54.340 --> 00:34:56.860
there kind of quiet for a minute. I'm like. OK,

00:34:56.960 --> 00:34:58.900
sir, appreciate your time. You know, thank you.

00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:00.239
You know, look forward to hopefully working with

00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.840
you and politely left. And I thought, man, that

00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:06.480
was ridiculous. So when I got letters later on

00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:08.420
that month or the next month from both agencies,

00:35:08.699 --> 00:35:11.159
I was already heavily leaning towards Orange

00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:12.679
County. So I was like, also, the county could

00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:14.840
have hired me a couple of weeks ago or a month

00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:18.320
ago, whatever, you know. And, you know, now they're

00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.019
getting around me on the second hiring. And the

00:35:21.019 --> 00:35:22.420
thing is, too, they hired a bunch of guys from

00:35:22.420 --> 00:35:24.159
down south that hadn't even been volunteers with

00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:26.440
them. So, yeah, I was pretty, I was pretty annoyed.

00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:28.239
You know, I was like, the whole thing was bull.

00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:32.519
So I remember talking to John Haskett. I'm like,

00:35:32.579 --> 00:35:35.300
what would you do? And John Haskett's wisdom,

00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:37.800
he said, well, if you really want to be a battalion

00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.320
chief in 10 years, you got to go to Osceola County.

00:35:41.059 --> 00:35:43.440
He's like, they're a young agency and there is

00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.860
more room to move up than you can imagine. He's

00:35:45.860 --> 00:35:49.539
like, but if you don't really care about being

00:35:49.539 --> 00:35:52.380
like all the bugles and the stars so quick. And

00:35:52.380 --> 00:35:55.679
he's like. but you're looking for greater stations

00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:57.719
and more opportunities to do different things,

00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:00.139
he's like, then I'd go to Orange County. And

00:36:00.139 --> 00:36:02.619
like I said, I was already kind of a little butthurt

00:36:02.619 --> 00:36:07.059
with Osceola. And so, yeah, I called up Orange

00:36:07.059 --> 00:36:09.300
County Human Resources like the day I get, you

00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:10.639
know, like the next day after I got that letter

00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:12.139
or whatever and said, yep, I appreciate it. I

00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:15.039
accept the offer. And that was, I started with

00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.019
Orange County in July of 98. You know, it's interesting

00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:20.800
because I've had a few conversations with people

00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:23.840
that were on. before me. And, you know, when

00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:28.019
we look back 20 years ago, for example, the level

00:36:28.019 --> 00:36:31.019
of recruitment, the level of desire to be a firefighter

00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:34.099
and the massive lists that we created for a handful

00:36:34.099 --> 00:36:36.639
of jobs, a lot of times we're like, yeah, but

00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.159
that was post 9 -11. But actually, that's bullshit.

00:36:39.260 --> 00:36:41.360
Because if you listen to people that were trying

00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:43.239
to get hired at the end of the 90s, it's the

00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:45.619
exact same story. Now, yeah, I'm sure 9 -11 added

00:36:45.619 --> 00:36:49.000
a few more. And I went to school. Um, Oh three

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.340
Oh four mid Florida tech. So a few years later

00:36:51.340 --> 00:36:54.019
than you, but you know, this is what I'm trying

00:36:54.019 --> 00:36:56.619
to paint the picture with this crisis that we're

00:36:56.619 --> 00:36:59.840
in now is listen to people that were trying to

00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:03.500
get hired 25, 30 years ago, even 10 years ago

00:37:03.500 --> 00:37:06.820
and how competitive it was and how it is now.

00:37:06.940 --> 00:37:09.699
It's not air quotes because kids don't want to

00:37:09.699 --> 00:37:11.960
work anymore. It's because there's been something

00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:14.860
that's been broken for a long, long time and

00:37:14.860 --> 00:37:18.429
we can get back to. the huge you know demand

00:37:18.429 --> 00:37:22.090
for our profession and choose that top tier but

00:37:22.090 --> 00:37:24.130
we have to acknowledge that there's something

00:37:24.130 --> 00:37:26.730
wrong because it wasn't that long ago that people

00:37:26.730 --> 00:37:30.389
were fighting for years to be you know just get

00:37:30.389 --> 00:37:33.190
one job in one department now you can bounce

00:37:33.190 --> 00:37:34.949
all over the place and get hired wherever you

00:37:34.949 --> 00:37:37.849
want you're so right i mean it blows my mind

00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.940
that, you know, recruitment and, you know, I'm

00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:44.099
not knocking it, but like paid for this and paid

00:37:44.099 --> 00:37:45.900
for that to go to school to try it out. And I'm

00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:48.440
like, man, like we, you know, there was, you

00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:50.059
were almost ready to shiv your brother in line,

00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:52.179
you know, when you were taking a test for Orlando.

00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:54.059
Now I remember showing up to Orlando's written

00:37:54.059 --> 00:37:56.500
test and the rumor mill was there was like maybe

00:37:56.500 --> 00:37:58.780
13 or 14 jobs. And there was like, I think it

00:37:58.780 --> 00:38:00.400
was given in the arena or something. I mean,

00:38:00.420 --> 00:38:02.739
you were at the Bob Carr. There was like, you

00:38:02.739 --> 00:38:05.670
know, a couple, three, 400 people. or more -ish

00:38:05.670 --> 00:38:09.610
showing up for like a dozen or 14 jobs. And you

00:38:09.610 --> 00:38:11.130
got to figure, you didn't know it then because

00:38:11.130 --> 00:38:12.510
you're young and naive that probably half of

00:38:12.510 --> 00:38:14.989
those were already taken by a chief's, somebody's

00:38:14.989 --> 00:38:17.650
chief's kid. You know, so in reality, there was

00:38:17.650 --> 00:38:19.510
three, 400 people competing for like four or

00:38:19.510 --> 00:38:23.010
five jobs. You know, you had to be, you had to

00:38:23.010 --> 00:38:24.969
be absolutely the best of the best. You know,

00:38:24.969 --> 00:38:27.829
you could not afford to have a bad day on a test

00:38:27.829 --> 00:38:29.789
day or you weren't, nope, it's not happening.

00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:33.710
This is the thing. When I went through, you guys,

00:38:33.809 --> 00:38:37.550
our county, Orange, had just done a non -cert.

00:38:37.849 --> 00:38:40.969
I think it was a class right before us. There

00:38:40.969 --> 00:38:43.250
were some freaking amazing firefighters that

00:38:43.250 --> 00:38:46.570
came through that. For everyone that had to work

00:38:46.570 --> 00:38:48.630
full -time and then go to school on weekends

00:38:48.630 --> 00:38:51.630
and evenings and do their fitness somewhere in

00:38:51.630 --> 00:38:54.130
between and then try and get to all these tests

00:38:54.130 --> 00:38:56.269
and get these packets around their work hours.

00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:00.639
you then don't question the commitment for that

00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:02.980
kind of candidate versus a non -cert. And obviously,

00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:04.920
you know, the non -cert has a place too, especially

00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.579
in underserved areas where they just can't afford

00:39:07.579 --> 00:39:09.599
to put themselves to school. So I think there's

00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:11.260
a place for both of them. Agreed. And I didn't

00:39:11.260 --> 00:39:13.079
mean to sound like I'm kicking non -certs. There's

00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:15.000
some of the ones I served with were, you know,

00:39:15.019 --> 00:39:17.559
phenomenal. Yeah. So yeah, hopefully I didn't

00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:18.760
come off sounding like it. No, no, you didn't.

00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:21.179
you didn't but it's a nuanced conversation but

00:39:21.179 --> 00:39:24.619
the point is you know this is a profession where

00:39:24.619 --> 00:39:28.579
you need to be able to take that top 10 you know

00:39:28.579 --> 00:39:31.360
when i talk to ocean lifeguards for example like

00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:34.380
that's that's a premier group of men and women

00:39:34.380 --> 00:39:37.239
that you know fitness is fitness is not an option

00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:38.940
you know and they have mandatory testing and

00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:41.320
they have to research because you know your child

00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:44.829
dies at a beach that that's unforgivable And

00:39:44.829 --> 00:39:46.670
then the same with our profession, with fitness

00:39:46.670 --> 00:39:49.809
levels and training levels and all these other

00:39:49.809 --> 00:39:52.530
areas. And I think the missing piece, though,

00:39:52.570 --> 00:39:55.250
is providing that environment to promote performance.

00:39:55.469 --> 00:39:56.849
And we'll get to that, obviously, with Orange

00:39:56.849 --> 00:40:00.090
County as well. But this is what we need to get

00:40:00.090 --> 00:40:03.329
back to, taking everyone on the list, which locally

00:40:03.329 --> 00:40:04.869
here, that's what they do. They're going to high

00:40:04.869 --> 00:40:07.789
schools now and begging every 18 -year -old they

00:40:07.789 --> 00:40:09.690
can find to come. They'll put them through school,

00:40:09.710 --> 00:40:11.989
EMT school. Yeah, and then what is the potential?

00:40:12.449 --> 00:40:15.360
You're going to have problems. they're not painting,

00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:17.960
I don't think, a fair picture of what you're

00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:21.260
getting into. I've told some of my nieces or

00:40:21.260 --> 00:40:23.539
nephews and some young kids I know that when

00:40:23.539 --> 00:40:25.199
they ask me about it, I'm like, listen, it's

00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:26.300
one of the best things that ever happened to

00:40:26.300 --> 00:40:28.340
me. It also can be one of the worst things. I'm

00:40:28.340 --> 00:40:31.199
like, you have to want to do this. I mean, you

00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:33.920
have to want it. If you're just trying it out

00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:37.099
or it's better money than fast food, I don't

00:40:37.099 --> 00:40:39.440
think it's a smart choice. You're wasting your

00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:43.800
time because there's so much to it. that isn't

00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:48.579
in the brochure, you know, that can get pretty

00:40:48.579 --> 00:40:50.940
heavy, you know, and you got to really want it

00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:54.000
because, you know, there was times towards the

00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.940
end when I didn't want it, you know, I didn't

00:40:56.940 --> 00:41:00.139
want it at all. And I thank God above for getting

00:41:00.139 --> 00:41:02.099
me through to the end, you know, still feel like

00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:03.760
a little bit of a wimp sometimes for only doing

00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:07.039
25, you know, but. Well, I only did 14, so I

00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:11.460
must be a giant pussy. No, no. No. All right.

00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:15.139
So you make me, sorry. Well, my, my extra story

00:41:15.139 --> 00:41:17.780
is, is unique though. But so if I'm doing the

00:41:17.780 --> 00:41:20.860
math. James, you're making a difference. You're

00:41:20.860 --> 00:41:22.340
making a difference. You're out there serving

00:41:22.340 --> 00:41:25.780
still. You're still serving. Yeah. You're doing

00:41:25.780 --> 00:41:30.079
all of it. Well, if my math is right, when you

00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:32.039
entered Orange County, that was only, was that

00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:34.300
only like 10 ish years after the consolidation

00:41:34.300 --> 00:41:37.059
where all the small towns became Orange County?

00:41:37.219 --> 00:41:39.900
I think that was the eighties. Where I don't

00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:41.699
want to disrespect the history and get it wrong

00:41:41.699 --> 00:41:44.519
and have some of my former mentors get mad at

00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:47.260
me. So I'm just going to go, yeah, probably ish.

00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:51.900
I think was it 1981? It was 81. I believe on

00:41:51.900 --> 00:41:53.559
the old patch it said they were consolidated.

00:41:54.539 --> 00:42:00.519
So I started in 98, July of 98. So 81 to 91 would

00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:05.679
be 10 years. So, yeah, you know, 10 plus, but

00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:08.599
not a ton more than that, you know. so 98 yeah

00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:10.880
i guess almost yeah so quite a bit more than

00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:13.880
that so what did it look like at the front door

00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:17.579
then were you seeing kind of um the the ripple

00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:20.400
effect of some of these smaller departments still

00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.539
or was it was it unified by the time you walked

00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:27.179
through the door i i would say mostly unified

00:42:27.179 --> 00:42:30.179
in the like i don't know 90s there was still

00:42:30.179 --> 00:42:32.920
some people from the district days that you know

00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:35.730
um for either just It's what they came from a

00:42:35.730 --> 00:42:39.070
new kind of holding on to that. Um, you know,

00:42:39.090 --> 00:42:40.849
that, that South side of town where I've spent

00:42:40.849 --> 00:42:43.769
most of my career, you know, the, you had the,

00:42:43.769 --> 00:42:48.070
the pine castle boys and the, um, you know, the,

00:42:48.070 --> 00:42:50.829
Oh, what's the one over there where burn used

00:42:50.829 --> 00:42:54.670
to work, um, over there by the lakes. Yeah. Um,

00:42:54.670 --> 00:42:56.489
we pine castle was actually where we were. I

00:42:56.489 --> 00:42:58.530
think that was us in 51, wasn't it? But then

00:42:58.530 --> 00:43:03.250
you had, um, edge war. Yeah, but no, there was

00:43:03.250 --> 00:43:04.869
something else. He's going to be like, man, I

00:43:04.869 --> 00:43:07.269
can't believe you got that wrong. And Taft as

00:43:07.269 --> 00:43:09.949
well. Wasn't Taft his own thing too? It was Taft

00:43:09.949 --> 00:43:13.050
over there. Yeah, there was, you know, so there

00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:16.349
was a little bit of that. You know, I think guys

00:43:16.349 --> 00:43:17.829
just kind of hanging on to where they came from,

00:43:17.889 --> 00:43:20.929
but not a ton, you know? And what about losing

00:43:20.929 --> 00:43:23.949
Mark and Todd in the line of duty death? Was

00:43:23.949 --> 00:43:26.889
that right before you got there? That was before

00:43:26.889 --> 00:43:30.320
I got there. I had been volunteering at Courts

00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:33.960
With Burn, and that hit him really hard. That

00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:38.199
was, you know, it was eye -opening a bit to me.

00:43:38.300 --> 00:43:40.659
You know, like when we went to the fire academy,

00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:42.800
I think they spent the first three or four days

00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:45.539
showing nothing but firefighter funerals, interviewing

00:43:45.539 --> 00:43:50.119
widows, you know, children of fallen firefighters.

00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:57.320
They really drove it home. yes, you could serve

00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:01.039
this whole career and retire healthy, or you

00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:03.420
could serve three, four, five years and go on

00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:05.159
the ground. You know, they made it very clear.

00:44:05.219 --> 00:44:08.079
Like, the inside of your coat says, you know,

00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:11.440
this is dangerous and it can kill you. And, you

00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:13.260
know, they drove that home. But, yeah, the Mark

00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:18.400
and Todd loss, I didn't know them. Obviously,

00:44:18.460 --> 00:44:20.440
we studied that fire deeply as Orange County

00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:24.329
and as we should. But knowing guys that knew

00:44:24.329 --> 00:44:26.449
him, you know, kind of watching, you know, the

00:44:26.449 --> 00:44:30.010
effect on them. And I know to this day, I still,

00:44:30.070 --> 00:44:31.670
there's a song by Mike and the mechanics in the

00:44:31.670 --> 00:44:34.949
living years that I know was, was at their funeral

00:44:34.949 --> 00:44:38.349
because burn burn educated me on that. And to

00:44:38.349 --> 00:44:40.090
this day, when I hear it, it's weird. Cause it

00:44:40.090 --> 00:44:42.210
wasn't there, but I still have almost a respect

00:44:42.210 --> 00:44:45.329
and memory towards them in regards to that. When

00:44:45.329 --> 00:44:49.210
I went through fire school, we just had the Osceola

00:44:49.210 --> 00:44:52.909
training fire fatalities. And then I think Miami,

00:44:53.150 --> 00:44:56.369
Hialeah also had that one in their kind of Connex

00:44:56.369 --> 00:44:58.429
burn building as well, where the student got

00:44:58.429 --> 00:45:01.190
lost. So I ended and they'd had a bunch of local

00:45:01.190 --> 00:45:03.809
land of duty deaths and in training. So, you

00:45:03.809 --> 00:45:06.349
know, it was a bizarre time because, yeah, I

00:45:06.349 --> 00:45:08.719
mean, it was kind of confusing. And you expect

00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:12.099
to see these losses as a naive, you know, recruit.

00:45:12.219 --> 00:45:15.579
You expect to lose firefighters going in to save

00:45:15.579 --> 00:45:17.659
kids, but the concept that you could get killed

00:45:17.659 --> 00:45:20.920
in training was mind -blowing back then. Right.

00:45:21.340 --> 00:45:23.840
I remember that. I remember that closely because

00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:25.559
obviously knowing quite a bit off some of the

00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:27.699
county guys and, you know, I knew some of the

00:45:27.699 --> 00:45:29.360
instructors that were wrapped up in that. That

00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:33.239
was tough. I mean, talk about, you know, something

00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:36.349
that's just really hard to deal with. Absolutely.

00:45:36.349 --> 00:45:38.070
Yeah. The video as well, just seeing the kind

00:45:38.070 --> 00:45:40.050
of silhouette of the fire in the Osceola one

00:45:40.050 --> 00:45:43.949
was just, just heartbreaking. So talk to me about,

00:45:43.949 --> 00:45:46.329
you know, orientation back then. What, what was

00:45:46.329 --> 00:45:50.530
the front door that like in Orange County? I

00:45:50.530 --> 00:45:54.210
remember Greg Pines was, was, was a big guy in

00:45:54.210 --> 00:45:58.690
regards to. you know, uh, introduction to Orange

00:45:58.690 --> 00:46:00.949
County. Uh, I liked him right out of the gate.

00:46:01.010 --> 00:46:02.289
I'm like, this is kind of what I wanted. You

00:46:02.289 --> 00:46:04.150
know, I wanted sort of that more than more paramilitary.

00:46:04.510 --> 00:46:06.369
I wanted somebody in my face yelling a little

00:46:06.369 --> 00:46:09.170
bit. I was looking for that, um, a discipline

00:46:09.170 --> 00:46:12.829
and, um, you know, Pines was good at that with

00:46:12.829 --> 00:46:14.590
his trooper hat, you know, that he'd put on your,

00:46:14.610 --> 00:46:17.530
on your forehead when he yelled at you. Um, I

00:46:17.530 --> 00:46:21.130
got hired with some phenomenal people. Um, and

00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:26.119
shaky was one of them. Um, and, uh, you know,

00:46:26.119 --> 00:46:29.119
I don't know how much time we have, but shaky,

00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:32.559
uh, day one, I was shaky. You know, he was, he

00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:34.360
was just, I won't, I won't detail too bad, but

00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:36.659
he was, he was acting up and he was being crazy.

00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:38.599
John goodness was in my class. A lot of great

00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:40.559
guys. I'm I'm I couldn't go on and on and on,

00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:43.599
but, um, shaky. And when I came into sat down

00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:46.039
in the portables there at the fire Academy, um,

00:46:46.179 --> 00:46:47.920
there wasn't really like, I thought it was plenty

00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:49.159
early. There wasn't a lot of seats. So I ended

00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:50.699
up kind of sitting near the front, right next

00:46:50.699 --> 00:46:54.099
to shaky. Didn't really know anybody. And, um,

00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:56.199
He just starts cutting up and messing around

00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:57.980
with me as Pines is giving this speech about

00:46:57.980 --> 00:47:00.480
how your name is written in pencil. And it'd

00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:02.380
be easier to fire you than write you up. And

00:47:02.380 --> 00:47:04.139
you know what I mean? Blah, blah, blah. And like

00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:06.239
you said, you fight so hard to get that job.

00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:08.079
And in my mind, I'm like, this is not getting

00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:10.019
messed up. You know what I mean? I'm like, not

00:47:10.019 --> 00:47:12.440
happening. I'm in the door. Like, no mistakes

00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:16.099
will be made. And Shakey's messing around. And

00:47:16.099 --> 00:47:17.679
he's like whispering to me. And I'm just looking

00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:19.099
dead ahead. And occasionally, I'm just looking.

00:47:19.139 --> 00:47:22.159
I'm like, shut up. And he's just cutting up and

00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:24.329
being crazy. And he got Pine's attention, and

00:47:24.329 --> 00:47:27.210
Pine chewed him out. And he let him have it,

00:47:27.230 --> 00:47:29.869
as he should have. And he gets done. He starts

00:47:29.869 --> 00:47:32.409
going back on his speech. And Shakey's like,

00:47:32.550 --> 00:47:35.050
I bet he's a really nice guy. Most guys that

00:47:35.050 --> 00:47:37.090
yell like that are just great guys. We're going

00:47:37.090 --> 00:47:38.690
to end up best friends later. I just know it.

00:47:39.130 --> 00:47:42.809
And he's acting like he's whispering, but he's

00:47:42.809 --> 00:47:45.190
being kind of loud. And I'm just going like,

00:47:45.349 --> 00:47:48.780
oh, dude, shut up. And so Pines is like, let's

00:47:48.780 --> 00:47:50.139
him have it again. And he lets him know like

00:47:50.139 --> 00:47:52.119
one more time and you're gone. Of course, shaky

00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.599
does it again. So he's like, that's it. And Pines

00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:56.260
goes back to the office. It was kind of behind

00:47:56.260 --> 00:47:57.519
all the chairs. Everybody's kind of turned on

00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.440
looking and he's like getting paperwork together.

00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:01.239
And he was probably just, you know, like scaring

00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:04.099
him, but we didn't know. And he's getting paperwork

00:48:04.099 --> 00:48:06.579
together and shaky jumps up and he's like, no,

00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:08.559
it was like a scene out of blues brothers. You

00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:09.940
know what I mean? Like, please, I swear to God,

00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.719
I'll be good. He jumps up and like runs back

00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:15.380
there. And he's like, I swear to God, I'm sorry.

00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:17.800
I can be good. I swear to God. And he yanks the

00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:20.679
papers out of Pine's hands, shoves them on his

00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:23.420
dress shirt and grabs a stapler off the counter

00:48:23.420 --> 00:48:26.260
and opens it up and sticks it on his chest and,

00:48:26.260 --> 00:48:29.119
and claps it like five or six times, stapling

00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:30.880
the paperwork to his chest. He's like bleeding

00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:33.320
through his dress shirt. And he's like, I swear

00:48:33.320 --> 00:48:36.039
to you, I'll bleed for you. I'll do anything.

00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:38.159
I'll be good. And he's like, literally like straight

00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:39.599
out of Blues Brothers. You know, I'm like, oh

00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:41.500
my God, everybody's sitting there like, what

00:48:41.500 --> 00:48:45.599
in the hell is happening? And, you know, Pines

00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:47.860
was like, get out. You know, it's like, oh, my

00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:51.059
God, this guy's gone first day. And obviously

00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:53.920
they didn't fire him. You know, they put in they

00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:55.980
pick squad leaders. They made me one, put him

00:48:55.980 --> 00:48:58.679
in my squad. I'm like, oh, awesome. We got in

00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:00.900
such good shape to shake. It was my because the

00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:03.519
extra pushups and the extra laps that we earned

00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:08.460
constantly. But it was during that first drill

00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:11.139
when we were all out front lined up. that pines

00:49:11.139 --> 00:49:13.079
was explaining to some of the other instructors

00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:15.539
who was who and he said in that one right there

00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:17.420
i'm not so sure about him he's he's a little

00:49:17.420 --> 00:49:22.219
shaky and uh you know that's that's that's in

00:49:22.219 --> 00:49:24.179
that was my version of how it stuck i've heard

00:49:24.179 --> 00:49:26.719
a couple others but that was that was what i

00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:30.280
saw and uh what a great human he was but man

00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:33.460
he yeah you know he did not know how to hold

00:49:33.460 --> 00:49:36.260
him you know what i mean in a in a setting when

00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:37.840
you're supposed to shut up he wasn't good at

00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:42.010
all It's funny you say about chief pines. I remember

00:49:42.010 --> 00:49:43.809
he had that smoke reading class. So that would,

00:49:43.829 --> 00:49:46.010
I mean, this was, you know, whatever it was by

00:49:46.010 --> 00:49:47.869
that point, four or five years into my career.

00:49:47.909 --> 00:49:50.289
And I was blown away. I was like, why haven't

00:49:50.289 --> 00:49:52.130
anyone really explained to me that when you were

00:49:52.130 --> 00:49:54.449
in dense, dark smoke, that you're in this big

00:49:54.449 --> 00:49:57.369
cloud of gasoline. Yeah. That could literally,

00:49:57.389 --> 00:49:59.130
you know, ignite and that's it. You're done.

00:49:59.960 --> 00:50:02.119
So we're super enamored with that until he said

00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:05.519
that the British firefighters don't go interior.

00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:07.380
And then I was like, okay, well, I'll take the

00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:09.400
part on smoke reading, but the other part is

00:50:09.400 --> 00:50:12.159
absolute bullshit. So you just kind of, well,

00:50:12.260 --> 00:50:18.920
I'm not hearing you anymore. So what about fitness

00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:21.440
standards and mental health conversations at

00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:27.300
the front door back then? I mean, The fitness

00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:30.000
standard, I guess I was maybe a little bit disappointed

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:31.199
in, you know what I mean? I kind of expected

00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:33.239
it to be like you mentioned ocean lifeguards

00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:36.099
and I expected it to be like, you know, hardcore,

00:50:36.219 --> 00:50:39.300
like here's the standard and you know, reasonable

00:50:39.300 --> 00:50:40.840
enough, but here's the standard. If you don't

00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:44.380
make it by and I kind of, you know, you, you

00:50:44.380 --> 00:50:46.940
know, people aren't stupid. They can look around

00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:48.820
and read the writing and realize that, you know,

00:50:48.820 --> 00:50:50.840
some of these people aren't cutting it and you're

00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:52.380
like, they're not going to make it. And then

00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:54.980
they do. And you, you didn't really witness them.

00:50:55.460 --> 00:50:57.360
evolved to the point of making it, you know,

00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:59.860
making that standard. So you're like, okay, you

00:50:59.860 --> 00:51:01.960
know, they don't really mean it. You know what

00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:05.440
I mean? Like the standard isn't really, isn't

00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:08.900
really the standard. You know, so I guess I was

00:51:08.900 --> 00:51:10.460
deep down kind of a little bit disappointed in

00:51:10.460 --> 00:51:11.900
that. I really thought that should have been

00:51:11.900 --> 00:51:16.019
legitimate and kind of noticing that it was pretty

00:51:16.019 --> 00:51:20.539
gray area. But I've always really enjoyed health

00:51:20.539 --> 00:51:22.679
and fitness and working out. So me personally,

00:51:22.699 --> 00:51:24.579
I was just like, okay, that's it. Who cares what

00:51:24.579 --> 00:51:26.880
they, hold other people to, I want to hold myself

00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:29.619
to what I know, you know, I should be. And, and

00:51:29.619 --> 00:51:31.360
so I guess it just kind of rolled my eyes like,

00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:33.320
all right, whatever. I'm not going to care about

00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:35.039
that. Did you mention mental health as well?

00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:36.800
Yeah. What was the conversation at the beginning?

00:51:37.460 --> 00:51:41.400
There were really weren't any like, um, you know,

00:51:41.420 --> 00:51:43.440
honestly, there, there really kind of weren't,

00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.699
you know, it was like, um, uh, if you run a tough

00:51:47.699 --> 00:51:49.780
call, like I remember when I, that volunteer

00:51:49.780 --> 00:51:52.179
call with the tornadoes with John Byrne, the

00:51:52.179 --> 00:51:55.119
CSIM meeting did nothing. And Burns sitting next

00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:57.659
to me, you know, kind of putting his hand on

00:51:57.659 --> 00:51:59.659
my shoulder, you know, and looking at him, he's

00:51:59.659 --> 00:52:01.599
like, you know, I think he probably had a cigarette.

00:52:01.659 --> 00:52:05.340
And he's like, you good? You know? And a Mountain

00:52:05.340 --> 00:52:11.079
Dew on the other hand. Yeah. But I knew that

00:52:11.079 --> 00:52:14.219
anything I could say wouldn't be judged. And

00:52:14.219 --> 00:52:15.760
I knew that this was somebody. He was right there

00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:17.360
along with me with those calls. He was the diver

00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:19.480
in the water when I was running the rescue boat

00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:20.780
when we were looking for bodies. You know what

00:52:20.780 --> 00:52:23.650
I mean? You know, we worked hand in hand on a

00:52:23.650 --> 00:52:27.789
lot of that. And so I knew there wasn't anything

00:52:27.789 --> 00:52:31.070
that that I was feeling that that would have

00:52:31.070 --> 00:52:33.429
been wrong to say, you know, and I didn't know

00:52:33.429 --> 00:52:35.750
how to articulate how I felt or what I was thinking

00:52:35.750 --> 00:52:38.010
or because it's just this blur of just felt like

00:52:38.010 --> 00:52:40.170
somebody just shocked your brain. You know, they

00:52:40.170 --> 00:52:42.210
just got this like white noise. You can't make

00:52:42.210 --> 00:52:44.969
sense of it. And so throughout calls earlier

00:52:44.969 --> 00:52:46.389
in my career in the county that were kind of

00:52:46.389 --> 00:52:48.510
heavy. Yeah, there was usually a senior person.

00:52:49.070 --> 00:52:50.769
They would come alongside you, sometimes your

00:52:50.769 --> 00:52:53.230
lieutenant, sometimes an engineer or a senior

00:52:53.230 --> 00:52:54.750
firefighter that would come along and be like,

00:52:54.849 --> 00:52:58.989
hey, you good? You know, and you knew that if

00:52:58.989 --> 00:53:01.409
you wanted to talk about it, you could and you

00:53:01.409 --> 00:53:02.789
weren't going to get judged and you weren't going

00:53:02.789 --> 00:53:04.449
to get called a pussy. You know what I mean?

00:53:04.489 --> 00:53:06.150
You could you could say whatever needed to be

00:53:06.150 --> 00:53:10.530
said. It'd be OK. And but there was no formal.

00:53:12.509 --> 00:53:14.429
There really wasn't any, it was kind of funny

00:53:14.429 --> 00:53:16.150
because, you know, Osceola County had made me

00:53:16.150 --> 00:53:18.369
go to one as a volunteer and in Orange County,

00:53:18.489 --> 00:53:19.750
you know, kind of out of the gate, if you ran

00:53:19.750 --> 00:53:21.789
something heavy, that was just kind of like,

00:53:21.929 --> 00:53:23.929
and I could be misspeaking here, but I'm just

00:53:23.929 --> 00:53:26.269
thinking back the best I can. I'm not trying

00:53:26.269 --> 00:53:28.610
to talk too negative, but I don't think there

00:53:28.610 --> 00:53:31.309
was a lot of that going on, you know, to almost

00:53:31.309 --> 00:53:33.869
in my memory, you know, I just can't think that

00:53:33.869 --> 00:53:36.250
that really was a thing. It was a brother or

00:53:36.250 --> 00:53:39.210
a sister. Somebody came along with a K, you know,

00:53:39.210 --> 00:53:42.030
that's so. Or they might even really let you

00:53:42.030 --> 00:53:44.510
know it was okay by saying, so that was a tough

00:53:44.510 --> 00:53:49.329
one. How you doing? And you're like, yeah, that

00:53:49.329 --> 00:53:53.869
sucked. And so that was about the extent of it

00:53:53.869 --> 00:53:55.489
as far as mental health. You were kind of a little

00:53:55.489 --> 00:54:00.010
bit your crew or maybe on your own. 2013 is when

00:54:00.010 --> 00:54:04.289
I left. And it's funny because some people might

00:54:04.289 --> 00:54:07.150
think I left because of this bad shift. I had

00:54:07.150 --> 00:54:08.989
already put my papers in and then the bad shift

00:54:08.989 --> 00:54:11.269
happened because obviously the universe was like,

00:54:11.309 --> 00:54:13.650
all right, James, you want to leave? Okay, here's

00:54:13.650 --> 00:54:16.869
a shift for you. But the first one of the day,

00:54:16.969 --> 00:54:19.989
I was finally assigned to the engine. I was a

00:54:19.989 --> 00:54:23.230
new paramedic and on the skew all the time. And

00:54:23.230 --> 00:54:27.690
we had a GI bleed code. We ran it like I have

00:54:27.690 --> 00:54:29.929
never had a code saved my whole career. So yet

00:54:29.929 --> 00:54:32.780
another person died. Get back to the station.

00:54:32.940 --> 00:54:36.139
I'm a single dad at this point and told not only

00:54:36.139 --> 00:54:39.420
am I going back to the rescue, but also that

00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:42.199
I'm going to get mandatory yet again the next

00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:45.099
shift. And so I was like, you know what? Fuck

00:54:45.099 --> 00:54:47.519
this. I'd already put my papers in with Reedy

00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:49.599
Creek because I'm looking for somewhere where.

00:54:50.090 --> 00:54:51.909
They can't tell me I can't go home to my child

00:54:51.909 --> 00:54:54.550
when I'm a single parent. And I hadn't done the

00:54:54.550 --> 00:54:56.469
medical yet. So I wasn't all the way through.

00:54:56.610 --> 00:54:58.750
But I was like, you know what? I'm done. So I

00:54:58.750 --> 00:55:00.730
put my papers in. I'm like, find someone for

00:55:00.730 --> 00:55:02.449
next shift. You know, you don't need two weeks.

00:55:02.489 --> 00:55:03.650
You're not going to find someone in two weeks

00:55:03.650 --> 00:55:05.989
anyway. You know, I'm just I've had enough of

00:55:05.989 --> 00:55:10.309
this shit. So fast forward a few hours. God,

00:55:10.409 --> 00:55:12.389
what was the next one? Oh, yeah. Homeless lady

00:55:12.389 --> 00:55:14.769
has been missing for a few days in the woods

00:55:14.769 --> 00:55:17.650
down on Orange Avenue. I end up, you know, being

00:55:17.650 --> 00:55:20.250
the lead medic. So I go find what's left of her

00:55:20.250 --> 00:55:22.550
hanging from, you know, bones in a seat. And

00:55:22.550 --> 00:55:25.849
that's number two. Number three, I don't know

00:55:25.849 --> 00:55:27.769
if you heard about this fire, was the one we

00:55:27.769 --> 00:55:31.210
had in, I think it was 50s first due. Either

00:55:31.210 --> 00:55:33.829
a suicide attempt or arson attempt, but young

00:55:33.829 --> 00:55:37.469
man inside a home comes out fully engulfed in

00:55:37.469 --> 00:55:40.750
fire. They put him out in the backyard. We're

00:55:40.750 --> 00:55:43.840
on the way to the fire. hear that medic screaming

00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:46.119
for help so we end up detouring someone the rescue

00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:49.460
and we go you know i write in with him crazy

00:55:49.460 --> 00:55:53.320
call like the perfect i've never seen a more

00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:55.659
powerful example of when the soul didn't know

00:55:55.659 --> 00:55:57.679
that the body was already dead this guy third

00:55:57.679 --> 00:56:00.139
degree burns like no nose you know tongue gone

00:56:00.139 --> 00:56:03.420
fingers gone i mean never just burnt to a crisp

00:56:03.420 --> 00:56:05.719
and talking like i'm talking to you now it was

00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:10.650
complete mind but that was number three three

00:56:10.650 --> 00:56:13.309
fatalities and then also in that that same medic

00:56:13.309 --> 00:56:16.309
had a car driving to a bus stop outside 51 and

00:56:16.309 --> 00:56:18.590
a woman got creamed underneath she survived but

00:56:18.590 --> 00:56:21.809
so that that was my last shift and it wasn't

00:56:21.809 --> 00:56:26.030
because of that but not a single person came

00:56:26.030 --> 00:56:28.110
in any of those you know and again i was gone

00:56:28.110 --> 00:56:30.269
after that but those we would have calls like

00:56:30.269 --> 00:56:32.909
them sometimes and never once in the five years

00:56:32.909 --> 00:56:36.829
i was there even had anyone of any cisd mental

00:56:36.829 --> 00:56:39.369
health nothing reach out and i only realize that

00:56:39.369 --> 00:56:42.590
now years later reflecting back but all you know

00:56:42.590 --> 00:56:45.369
including that last day and chris i mean the

00:56:45.369 --> 00:56:48.050
the medic that was you know the one i responded

00:56:48.050 --> 00:56:51.110
with like he was there for for shifts after i

00:56:51.110 --> 00:56:54.650
don't think they got anyone at all so the three

00:56:54.650 --> 00:56:57.489
horrific deaths in you know separate deaths in

00:56:57.489 --> 00:57:00.659
one one shift and that doesn't flag that you

00:57:00.659 --> 00:57:02.400
probably should send one you know just to make

00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:04.699
sure the crew's okay you know that that i think

00:57:04.699 --> 00:57:07.940
is a failure yeah that person you you absorbed

00:57:07.940 --> 00:57:10.559
and i remember it's funny like i remember you

00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:12.719
know kind of when when you left and i never associated

00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:14.440
it with any you know because we didn't work together

00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:17.099
really much on on the same cruise or shifts and

00:57:17.099 --> 00:57:19.800
i remember like hearing that like you left to

00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:22.039
go to reedy creek and i thought oh man that sucks

00:57:22.039 --> 00:57:24.340
i liked that guy you know like you know kind

00:57:24.340 --> 00:57:25.739
of like i remember kind of like yeah we lost

00:57:25.739 --> 00:57:29.949
a good one you know damn it you know um And I

00:57:29.949 --> 00:57:31.329
also remember thinking if I ever bumped into

00:57:31.329 --> 00:57:32.429
you at training, I was going to sing you the

00:57:32.429 --> 00:57:35.369
Mickey Mouse song just to mess with you. But

00:57:35.369 --> 00:57:38.949
at the same time, I remember that shift. It's

00:57:38.949 --> 00:57:41.570
so funny as you explain this. I wasn't on those

00:57:41.570 --> 00:57:44.809
calls, right? We've all had very familiar and

00:57:44.809 --> 00:57:47.369
similar experiences. And one thing I try to avoid

00:57:47.369 --> 00:57:49.369
when I'm talking to anybody that's been there

00:57:49.369 --> 00:57:53.750
is it's very easy with you and I. For some reason,

00:57:53.829 --> 00:57:56.510
my brain wants to like now almost like trauma

00:57:56.510 --> 00:57:59.780
equal or one up, right? And it's just like, why

00:57:59.780 --> 00:58:01.900
stop? You know what I mean? Like, that's not

00:58:01.900 --> 00:58:05.059
like what you just shared is, is, is catastrophic.

00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:08.420
You know, like that's terrible. And, uh, you

00:58:08.420 --> 00:58:09.800
know, we've been there, you know what I mean?

00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:13.760
But I, I will say this, um, I remember that shift.

00:58:13.820 --> 00:58:15.280
And as you're explaining those calls, some pieces

00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:16.920
and parts of like listening to them or hearing

00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:18.880
about them came back and I can remember where

00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:21.219
I was in the station or listening to a portable

00:58:21.219 --> 00:58:23.840
on that call and be like, Hmm, you know, and

00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:25.500
it's just like, it just instantly you're back

00:58:25.500 --> 00:58:28.460
there. And a lot of times, James, I don't want

00:58:28.460 --> 00:58:32.900
to go back and talk about certain calls or certain

00:58:32.900 --> 00:58:37.679
things because it makes it really real. I don't

00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:39.300
know if that's the same for you, like if it just

00:58:39.300 --> 00:58:41.099
really kind of some of that trauma just became

00:58:41.099 --> 00:58:46.860
almost new. I don't know, but I'll say this.

00:58:46.900 --> 00:58:50.139
My first experience with the county of them putting

00:58:50.139 --> 00:58:54.449
together a. I shouldn't say the first piece of

00:58:54.449 --> 00:58:56.829
the putting together a CSIM team or CSID, whatever

00:58:56.829 --> 00:58:59.030
you call it, you know, but it's the first one

00:58:59.030 --> 00:59:00.829
and it's the only one in my whole career. It

00:59:00.829 --> 00:59:03.769
was early on -ish that actually made a difference.

00:59:04.469 --> 00:59:06.530
I was like, wow, you know, cause I'd already

00:59:06.530 --> 00:59:08.269
kind of had a bad attitude about it. So it couldn't

00:59:08.269 --> 00:59:09.469
have been the first one I'd been to. Obviously

00:59:09.469 --> 00:59:11.389
I'd been to the one in also the County where

00:59:11.389 --> 00:59:14.889
she was not prepared for, for what she was about

00:59:14.889 --> 00:59:18.130
to hear and did not know how to, to, to address

00:59:18.130 --> 00:59:21.409
us, handle it, process it, pull it out. um had

00:59:21.409 --> 00:59:23.710
nothing to say after the fact other than just

00:59:23.710 --> 00:59:27.969
like it destroyed her a bit uh i had to have

00:59:27.969 --> 00:59:30.250
had been to a couple in the county prior to this

00:59:30.250 --> 00:59:31.869
one i'm thinking of i just can't recall them

00:59:31.869 --> 00:59:33.730
because i knew i had a kind of a bad attitude

00:59:33.730 --> 00:59:36.769
about them i remember thinking like um these

00:59:36.769 --> 00:59:39.130
are worthless you know what i mean like i remember

00:59:39.130 --> 00:59:41.510
leaving most of them sometimes feeling worse

00:59:41.510 --> 00:59:45.010
than i did you know before uh being sent to them

00:59:45.010 --> 00:59:51.099
and um there was one uh at at when i was at 52

00:59:51.099 --> 00:59:53.340
and i was a firefighter brian oncas was the medic

00:59:53.340 --> 00:59:56.099
i think terry hawkins was there a lot then too

00:59:56.099 --> 01:00:02.639
can't remember the entire crew but uh uh a crotch

01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:04.860
rocket was going down sand lake road doing like

01:00:04.860 --> 01:00:09.599
140 150 miles an hour like just getting it and

01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.719
um And sometimes I sound like a pansy when friends

01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:13.940
are like, oh, you wouldn't understand unless

01:00:13.940 --> 01:00:15.380
you've gone that fast. It's insane. Everyone

01:00:15.380 --> 01:00:17.320
judges it. And I'm thinking, I don't even bother

01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:18.440
telling them because I don't want to be that

01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:19.840
guy. And I'm like, yeah, but there's other people.

01:00:21.079 --> 01:00:23.880
It's not just about you, you know, but this particular

01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:26.320
call, this lady was driving a minivan and she

01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:28.019
was coming out of kind of like those offices

01:00:28.019 --> 01:00:30.480
where the satellite TV dishes were, the golf

01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:34.019
channel and all that, like just west of Tangelo

01:00:34.019 --> 01:00:37.900
Park. So not very far from the station. And she

01:00:37.900 --> 01:00:40.460
had her and her friend in the front seat. and

01:00:40.460 --> 01:00:42.940
two children like in car seats i think one in

01:00:42.940 --> 01:00:45.179
a car seat maybe one not in the back of the van

01:00:45.179 --> 01:00:48.900
and um the kids were fighting and slapping each

01:00:48.900 --> 01:00:50.639
other and screaming and crying and one was getting

01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:53.079
out of its seat belt and from what i understand

01:00:53.079 --> 01:00:56.159
the mom had looked and to her left and the road

01:00:56.159 --> 01:00:59.239
was clear and the kids were being jerks and messing

01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.300
around and the one kid was like and she was like

01:01:01.300 --> 01:01:03.059
fine give me your seat belt and like was trying

01:01:03.059 --> 01:01:04.960
to undo it or whatever she had just looked it

01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:08.739
was clear and like for a long ways And so as

01:01:08.739 --> 01:01:11.260
she was pulling out and kind of like, you know,

01:01:11.260 --> 01:01:12.760
did the glance again, like, yeah, it was clear.

01:01:12.860 --> 01:01:14.739
It's still clear. It was clear forever. She was

01:01:14.739 --> 01:01:17.079
pulling out that bike that was doing like 150

01:01:17.079 --> 01:01:20.320
-ish, you know, wouldn't even have been a dot

01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:22.079
when she looked three or four seconds earlier,

01:01:22.219 --> 01:01:26.400
was there. And it T -boned the van behind the

01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:30.559
B post, you know, and came like pretty much all

01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:33.239
the way through the van. It decapitated the rider.

01:01:36.369 --> 01:01:39.690
the child that was in the car seat was pretty

01:01:39.690 --> 01:01:41.710
much burnt and ground up by the chain because

01:01:41.710 --> 01:01:44.010
the throttle was stuck. And so the bike was pretty

01:01:44.010 --> 01:01:45.710
much just sitting there running wide open throttle

01:01:45.710 --> 01:01:50.670
on that toddler. And the other kid, if I can't

01:01:50.670 --> 01:01:55.329
recall, it was just really heavily trauma. And

01:01:55.329 --> 01:01:57.630
the two moms in the front seat were basically

01:01:57.630 --> 01:02:03.449
not a scratch. And while we're working that call,

01:02:05.239 --> 01:02:09.559
the mom uh apparently we found out later she

01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:12.599
had been the driver on an accident about a year

01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:15.219
prior where her husband perished oh my goodness

01:02:15.219 --> 01:02:18.860
and she walked out in traffic on sand lake road

01:02:18.860 --> 01:02:22.820
in front of a truck on the call you know so she

01:02:22.820 --> 01:02:26.639
was an auto ped um because she had decided to

01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:29.340
kill herself um on that call basically in front

01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:31.360
of us as we're trying to work work these kids

01:02:32.279 --> 01:02:35.619
And, um, it, uh, so of course, you know, we're

01:02:35.619 --> 01:02:38.860
working her and, um, it was, uh, it was severe,

01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:41.659
you know, it was, it was a heavy call and, um,

01:02:41.739 --> 01:02:45.019
you know, okay. So you call over whatever, right.

01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:47.860
You clean up, do all the stuff. Um, I remember

01:02:47.860 --> 01:02:50.960
there was like a rural Metro medic on that call

01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:52.900
that had like just been signed off and you know

01:02:52.900 --> 01:02:55.199
how hard it is to get your patch. I respect anyone

01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:59.699
who does that, um, had just been signed off and

01:02:59.699 --> 01:03:02.949
I guess she, she quit. after that day, just decided

01:03:02.949 --> 01:03:05.869
like, no, I'm not, I'm not, this is not for me.

01:03:06.349 --> 01:03:08.969
And that's sad. You know, I don't, I don't laugh

01:03:08.969 --> 01:03:10.289
at that. I shouldn't laugh at the counselor.

01:03:10.309 --> 01:03:12.170
The first one, I don't know why I do. I'm just,

01:03:12.510 --> 01:03:15.769
I'm not a great person sometimes, but anyway,

01:03:15.949 --> 01:03:18.469
I won't, I won't laugh at, at that medic who

01:03:18.469 --> 01:03:20.210
quit. That's just terrible. You work that hard,

01:03:20.269 --> 01:03:22.769
you know, and, but, um, we, we, we went to a

01:03:22.769 --> 01:03:25.489
CSIM and 10, I remember that was a thing, engine

01:03:25.489 --> 01:03:28.360
rescue 10. showed up from Orlando on that call.

01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:29.679
Cause it was kind of one of those, like could

01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:31.260
have, it was on the line. You know, we shared

01:03:31.260 --> 01:03:33.400
an area with them pretty closely. We got there

01:03:33.400 --> 01:03:35.260
way first, you know, cause we were right down

01:03:35.260 --> 01:03:38.280
the street. 10 showed up on the call and we put

01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:40.079
them to work on, you know, Hey, do this to help

01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:42.159
us out. And, and, and, you know, we always got

01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:44.579
along with them very well. And the call ran as

01:03:44.579 --> 01:03:47.579
smoothly as a call like that can go. But so,

01:03:47.659 --> 01:03:49.739
and it's funny now that I talked through this

01:03:49.739 --> 01:03:52.500
and I remember 10 because it was the first CSM

01:03:52.500 --> 01:03:54.699
I ever been to that was good and it mattered.

01:03:54.699 --> 01:03:57.280
And it happened at Orlando 10. So Orlando ran

01:03:57.280 --> 01:04:01.840
it. Their team ran it. And they invited 52's

01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:05.199
crew and rural metro crews to it. So, you know,

01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:08.780
hats off to them for that. And so I don't, you

01:04:08.780 --> 01:04:10.539
know, I don't know if the county would have run

01:04:10.539 --> 01:04:14.539
one. I know we went to Station 10 and we were

01:04:14.539 --> 01:04:16.059
out of service. The county, you know, did grant

01:04:16.059 --> 01:04:18.119
us that. Okay, yeah, you're out of service. Get

01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:21.000
cleaned up and go over to 10 for this meeting.

01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:27.079
And the counselor sat down and she said, Um,

01:04:27.079 --> 01:04:30.219
you know, I did like 21 years in Chicago EMS

01:04:30.219 --> 01:04:33.800
as a paramedic, blah, blah, blah. And she's like,

01:04:33.900 --> 01:04:36.880
ultimately back injuries, picking up heavy people,

01:04:36.980 --> 01:04:38.900
you know what I mean? Slipping and all the stuff

01:04:38.900 --> 01:04:41.280
we slip in, blah, blah, blah, aggravating back

01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:44.019
injuries, the knee injuries. She's like, ultimately

01:04:44.019 --> 01:04:46.980
I had to tap. She was like, physically, my body

01:04:46.980 --> 01:04:49.420
couldn't do it anymore. She was like, and mentally

01:04:49.420 --> 01:04:51.340
and emotionally, spiritually, whatever. She's

01:04:51.340 --> 01:04:52.860
like, I was, I was a hollow person. I was done.

01:04:53.340 --> 01:04:55.769
She's like, I was ready to end my life. She was

01:04:55.769 --> 01:04:57.269
like, and all the counseling and all the meetings

01:04:57.269 --> 01:04:59.329
were worthless. She was like, because I couldn't

01:04:59.329 --> 01:05:01.889
connect with anyone. No one I felt like had been

01:05:01.889 --> 01:05:03.949
there, had walked that, had understood that.

01:05:04.489 --> 01:05:08.610
She's like, so my thought was to give back, was

01:05:08.610 --> 01:05:11.309
I went to, she's like, I just was mad. I felt

01:05:11.309 --> 01:05:13.309
like the whole process was flawed. And everyone

01:05:13.309 --> 01:05:14.670
that talked to me, I just sat there the whole

01:05:14.670 --> 01:05:17.230
time, like, you don't get it. And so she had

01:05:17.230 --> 01:05:19.309
my attention right out of the gate. Cause I'm

01:05:19.309 --> 01:05:23.829
like, huh, okay. She served in Chicago. I'm like.

01:05:24.199 --> 01:05:27.219
She has definitely played, you know, I hate,

01:05:27.219 --> 01:05:29.380
you know, some of the words we use seem so wrong.

01:05:29.480 --> 01:05:30.760
Sometimes even as they come out of your mouth,

01:05:30.780 --> 01:05:32.820
it's like playing should be a happy thing, you

01:05:32.820 --> 01:05:35.320
know, but she, she had definitely done it and

01:05:35.320 --> 01:05:38.380
seen it. She had recognized that her injuries

01:05:38.380 --> 01:05:39.619
and whatever else. And then she was like, and

01:05:39.619 --> 01:05:41.940
it also had said that most CSIM and CSIDs to

01:05:41.940 --> 01:05:46.980
her had been a joke. And I'm like, okay, I am

01:05:46.980 --> 01:05:48.780
no longer tuning this person out. I'm not going

01:05:48.780 --> 01:05:52.659
to sit here and do my polite presence. I want

01:05:52.659 --> 01:05:57.519
to hear. what she has to say. And I don't recall

01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:59.539
exactly everything she said, but I know that

01:05:59.539 --> 01:06:02.599
she broke it down. I just felt understood. I

01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:05.860
felt like there was a colleague to share with,

01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:09.639
somebody that had raided opening up to and that

01:06:09.639 --> 01:06:12.340
had been there and understood. And so that CSIM,

01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:16.719
I really came out of it feeling like, huh, I

01:06:16.719 --> 01:06:19.340
mean, it's still a really heavy call. And I remember

01:06:19.340 --> 01:06:21.340
Ben Sechers was on that call and he told me,

01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:23.360
And the thing is, I always thought back then

01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:25.199
too, you weren't, it was kind of like you're

01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:27.340
being a wimp to be bothered. Like, you know what

01:06:27.340 --> 01:06:29.320
I mean? Like you're supposed to just be like

01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:31.300
the guy, the senior guy puts his, Hey, you're

01:06:31.300 --> 01:06:34.420
good. Yeah, I'm good. You know, go home. Don't

01:06:34.420 --> 01:06:36.940
kick the dog. Don't, don't hurt anyone. Don't

01:06:36.940 --> 01:06:39.619
shoot yourself. Drink a bunch of whiskey and

01:06:39.619 --> 01:06:43.400
suck it up, you know, shelf it. It's your job,

01:06:43.420 --> 01:06:47.159
you know, do your job. You're fine. And honestly,

01:06:48.340 --> 01:06:50.789
I told you earlier, I. I really kind of thought

01:06:50.789 --> 01:06:53.369
I was for this whole stretch from the Oslo County,

01:06:53.550 --> 01:06:56.110
from the tornadoes, through that call, through

01:06:56.110 --> 01:06:58.369
a bunch of other heavy calls. I really kind of

01:06:58.369 --> 01:07:01.429
thought that I was exempt from this. I'm like,

01:07:01.510 --> 01:07:04.210
you know, the things were hard, but I didn't

01:07:04.210 --> 01:07:06.329
have nightmares. I didn't have like, I just kind

01:07:06.329 --> 01:07:08.510
of, they were sad. They were hard. They made

01:07:08.510 --> 01:07:12.489
me feel confused inside, you know, like, geez,

01:07:12.550 --> 01:07:15.809
like not really knowing how to process it. And

01:07:15.809 --> 01:07:18.670
so eventually I just kind of like. pushed it

01:07:18.670 --> 01:07:20.250
back. And at the time I think I thought, okay,

01:07:20.329 --> 01:07:23.269
I've forgotten that and I'm good, you know? And,

01:07:23.389 --> 01:07:26.929
uh, you know, so yeah, I remember that one actually,

01:07:26.949 --> 01:07:30.250
I felt better. And I also felt like, you know,

01:07:30.269 --> 01:07:32.469
I didn't really, I felt like I didn't really

01:07:32.469 --> 01:07:35.130
understand people that had their, the big breakdown

01:07:35.130 --> 01:07:36.929
at one. And I just thought like, yeah, I don't

01:07:36.929 --> 01:07:38.130
know, man. Like I didn't want to judge them too

01:07:38.130 --> 01:07:40.570
hard, but I thought maybe I'm exempt from that.

01:07:40.690 --> 01:07:43.550
Maybe I'm just like perfect for this job, you

01:07:43.550 --> 01:07:45.210
know? And I had a little bit of pride about it.

01:07:45.230 --> 01:07:47.679
Like, yeah. you know like yeah whatever man i'm

01:07:47.679 --> 01:07:50.880
good you know um so anyway i've been talking

01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:53.440
enough sorry no no no but it's this is exactly

01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:55.079
yeah and it goes back to what we're talking about

01:07:55.079 --> 01:07:58.579
as far as you know taking that top 10 and really

01:07:58.579 --> 01:08:01.099
wanting to do the job because these these calls

01:08:01.099 --> 01:08:04.500
i mean these were just two two shifts of a you

01:08:04.500 --> 01:08:07.820
know 14 or in your case a lot longer year career

01:08:07.820 --> 01:08:10.860
and so you know the Creating the environment

01:08:10.860 --> 01:08:13.340
for us to perform, like I said, and a healthy

01:08:13.340 --> 01:08:16.479
environment and all that stuff, but also the

01:08:16.479 --> 01:08:19.359
competition so that when you get that top tier

01:08:19.359 --> 01:08:21.680
and you start talking about this at the front

01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:24.699
door and really kind of forging mental resilience

01:08:24.699 --> 01:08:26.840
by helping people process these traumas, because

01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:29.600
it's not normal to see this horrible shit. That

01:08:29.600 --> 01:08:32.420
is an incredibly important part of the process

01:08:32.420 --> 01:08:34.560
and the conversation. But going back to what

01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:36.779
we were talking about, now you go get a bunch

01:08:36.779 --> 01:08:39.210
of 18 year olds. and you train them, you give

01:08:39.210 --> 01:08:40.770
them the pieces of paper that you need to be

01:08:40.770 --> 01:08:42.649
a firefighter, and then you expose them to this

01:08:42.649 --> 01:08:46.289
on the second shift, you know, that is a huge,

01:08:46.310 --> 01:08:48.810
it's just irresponsible. It's a disservice to

01:08:48.810 --> 01:08:52.710
the people that have towed the line versus, you

01:08:52.710 --> 01:08:54.670
know, having this competitive process. I would

01:08:54.670 --> 01:08:57.029
argue even, you know, realistically, we probably

01:08:57.029 --> 01:08:58.989
shouldn't be firefighters until we're about 21

01:08:58.989 --> 01:09:03.010
at least anyway. And then, you know, being enveloped

01:09:03.010 --> 01:09:05.310
in these tools, so these incredible men and women

01:09:05.310 --> 01:09:08.720
that put this uniform on can, can deal with this

01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:11.880
horrible shit and these these horrendous losses

01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:14.800
that we you know we witness we hear the screams

01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:18.039
of the loved ones that stuff has to go somewhere

01:09:18.039 --> 01:09:20.079
you know what i mean and being buried down is

01:09:20.079 --> 01:09:22.460
the worst thing that we can do but as we both

01:09:22.460 --> 01:09:25.420
know from our in earlier careers that was what

01:09:25.420 --> 01:09:27.800
everyone did you know and and thank god you and

01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:29.460
i are here to talk about it but we've got many

01:09:29.460 --> 01:09:34.399
friends that aren't it's a fact You know, it's

01:09:34.399 --> 01:09:36.659
funny you mentioned the age. You know, I've thought

01:09:36.659 --> 01:09:38.399
often about soldiers and others. You know, the

01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:40.600
22 a day blows my mind, you know, with veterans.

01:09:41.119 --> 01:09:43.560
It just, it's ridiculous. That's over 8 ,000

01:09:43.560 --> 01:09:46.479
a year. You know, and it just, it breaks my heart.

01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:50.539
You know, I just, you know, but that age is important.

01:09:50.739 --> 01:09:52.899
You know, 18 year old, you know, I'm not trying

01:09:52.899 --> 01:09:55.460
to bag on anyone's age. There's some very mature

01:09:55.460 --> 01:09:57.260
18 year olds out there, but still your cerebral

01:09:57.260 --> 01:09:59.600
cortex and all that, things aren't processed

01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:02.770
enough. They're not fully developed enough, you

01:10:02.770 --> 01:10:05.109
know what I mean, to be making these life and

01:10:05.109 --> 01:10:07.390
death decisions to feel like at the end of it,

01:10:07.470 --> 01:10:10.529
oh, man, if I would have gone this way a little

01:10:10.529 --> 01:10:12.630
more instead of this way a little more, would

01:10:12.630 --> 01:10:14.310
that two -year -old still be alive? Would that,

01:10:14.329 --> 01:10:16.189
you know what I mean, and the blame on yourself.

01:10:16.310 --> 01:10:18.050
And then, you know, it's just natural family

01:10:18.050 --> 01:10:20.970
reaction to almost pound the chest on a responder

01:10:20.970 --> 01:10:23.590
and be like, why? You know, or like, no, they're

01:10:23.590 --> 01:10:30.429
not dead. And that just goes into you like. yeah

01:10:30.429 --> 01:10:34.649
um i guess i screwed up it's my job to make people

01:10:34.649 --> 01:10:38.170
not dead and um you know yeah so i guess it's

01:10:38.170 --> 01:10:42.609
on me you know yeah i've said this actually when

01:10:42.609 --> 01:10:44.229
i reflect back now because i went to medic school

01:10:44.229 --> 01:10:46.670
when i was at the county it's kind of funny actually

01:10:46.670 --> 01:10:49.350
screaming for medics absolutely screaming for

01:10:49.350 --> 01:10:53.069
medics i put myself through school um they wouldn't

01:10:53.069 --> 01:10:57.710
even give me tuition reimbursement But once I

01:10:57.710 --> 01:10:59.210
had my patch, they were like, all right, now

01:10:59.210 --> 01:11:01.930
you're mandatory for, you know, for the rest

01:11:01.930 --> 01:11:06.489
of your time here. But when I reflect back on

01:11:06.489 --> 01:11:09.529
fire training on, I mean, not so much EMT, but

01:11:09.529 --> 01:11:11.470
certainly paramedic, you know, where you're really,

01:11:11.510 --> 01:11:14.930
really the lead in these calls. We do a horrible

01:11:14.930 --> 01:11:18.619
job. at educating people that we are going to

01:11:18.619 --> 01:11:20.960
do our damnedest to save this person but especially

01:11:20.960 --> 01:11:23.659
on the ems side if you're doing a code you know

01:11:23.659 --> 01:11:25.300
you're doing a mega code or whatever the training

01:11:25.300 --> 01:11:29.600
is that you should then end up with a sisterly

01:11:29.600 --> 01:11:31.699
and then turn to you and say good job you did

01:11:31.699 --> 01:11:33.800
everything right you just couldn't say oh my

01:11:33.800 --> 01:11:37.079
god how amazing would that be you know in in

01:11:37.079 --> 01:11:39.100
i've done a lot of things in life i've been blessed

01:11:39.100 --> 01:11:40.880
but in fishing they call that managing expectations

01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:43.439
You know what I mean? If you're taking people

01:11:43.439 --> 01:11:45.060
fishing for the day on a charter boat and like

01:11:45.060 --> 01:11:48.600
the fishing's been shit and every client expects

01:11:48.600 --> 01:11:51.640
this, you have to start out with the gate of

01:11:51.640 --> 01:11:53.180
like, we're going to swing for the fences. We're

01:11:53.180 --> 01:11:54.359
going to give it hell. We're going to do everything

01:11:54.359 --> 01:11:56.220
we can. But you have to but you have to then

01:11:56.220 --> 01:11:58.859
manage the expectation on the day that things

01:11:58.859 --> 01:12:01.739
have been really slow lately. And how amazing

01:12:01.739 --> 01:12:03.939
would that be? Because like you said, most training.

01:12:04.539 --> 01:12:06.500
You know, whatever else, like they end it with

01:12:06.500 --> 01:12:09.020
a code save. They end it with success. And you're

01:12:09.020 --> 01:12:11.119
kind of conditioned to like, yep, I got this.

01:12:11.180 --> 01:12:12.819
I understand these things. I know what to do

01:12:12.819 --> 01:12:14.800
next. I can know how to paint my numbers and

01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:17.920
run these calls. And you think like, okay, I

01:12:17.920 --> 01:12:23.439
got it. You know, when you're not ready for the

01:12:23.439 --> 01:12:26.699
way it turns out a lot of the times. No. And

01:12:26.699 --> 01:12:29.180
like I said, that was a black flag. I, you know,

01:12:29.180 --> 01:12:31.960
look back and I. trained diligently and i did

01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:34.720
lots of extra classes and you know took the job

01:12:34.720 --> 01:12:37.619
very seriously and kept in shape and you know

01:12:37.619 --> 01:12:39.920
did all the things but i just would get the gi

01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:43.239
bleeds the the brain bleeds the you know the

01:12:43.239 --> 01:12:45.739
triple a's i mean you just name it i had the

01:12:45.739 --> 01:12:49.060
ones that i got this one poor guy was a quadriplegic

01:12:49.060 --> 01:12:52.539
and you know literally died in front of us but

01:12:52.539 --> 01:12:54.539
you couldn't even compress his chest because

01:12:54.539 --> 01:12:56.670
it was like the quarter panel of a car So you

01:12:56.670 --> 01:12:58.449
couldn't even do a, you know what I mean? That's

01:12:58.449 --> 01:13:01.149
what I got over and over and over again. So sometimes

01:13:01.149 --> 01:13:03.109
you just - And nobody had warned you, James,

01:13:03.189 --> 01:13:05.810
this might happen. And so you're feeling like,

01:13:05.829 --> 01:13:08.229
what am I doing wrong? You're feeling like, what

01:13:08.229 --> 01:13:10.010
am I doing wrong in that moment? When in reality,

01:13:10.210 --> 01:13:12.529
nothing, you weren't doing anything wrong. No,

01:13:12.550 --> 01:13:14.489
no. And that's just it. And then you look back

01:13:14.489 --> 01:13:17.090
and go, okay, well, everything went right. We

01:13:17.090 --> 01:13:18.789
just didn't save the person. And it's the same

01:13:18.789 --> 01:13:20.869
on a fire scene. You know, actually there's a

01:13:20.869 --> 01:13:23.569
story in my second book, my most recent book.

01:13:24.240 --> 01:13:25.939
Because, you know, and I want to make this into

01:13:25.939 --> 01:13:29.979
a show, but what happens on television? You know,

01:13:30.060 --> 01:13:32.359
the people, the firefighter goes in and he gets

01:13:32.359 --> 01:13:34.520
the kid and he comes out and then the kid starts

01:13:34.520 --> 01:13:36.119
coughing. And then, you know, the next shift,

01:13:36.119 --> 01:13:38.180
he comes with a cake to the station. And even

01:13:38.180 --> 01:13:39.880
in the people, someone pointed out recently,

01:13:40.020 --> 01:13:44.960
even the EMS and fire docu -series, usually they'll

01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:47.810
highlight these saves. You know, but that's not

01:13:47.810 --> 01:13:50.409
what, you know, what we know. And even at Reedy

01:13:50.409 --> 01:13:52.430
Creek, which has the highest code save rate,

01:13:52.470 --> 01:13:54.189
I think, in America, because there's just so

01:13:54.189 --> 01:13:58.289
many witness arrests and AEDs everywhere. Even

01:13:58.289 --> 01:14:02.050
there, five years of just death. So, you know,

01:14:02.050 --> 01:14:03.770
some of us are just going to be that shit magnet.

01:14:03.829 --> 01:14:05.850
It is what it is. But if you're not including

01:14:05.850 --> 01:14:08.250
that in your training, like, hey, the probability

01:14:08.250 --> 01:14:11.189
of a code save is, you know, 5%, 10%, whatever

01:14:11.189 --> 01:14:14.180
it is these days. You know, there's a 90 plus

01:14:14.180 --> 01:14:16.720
percent chance this person won't make it. So

01:14:16.720 --> 01:14:19.619
let's weave that into the training. That is not

01:14:19.619 --> 01:14:23.260
a failure that you didn't get ROSC. You did everything

01:14:23.260 --> 01:14:25.760
exactly as you should have done. You gave that

01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:29.180
person every chance to come back from this, but

01:14:29.180 --> 01:14:31.560
their heart was just too diseased or, you know,

01:14:31.579 --> 01:14:34.060
the trauma was just too much. And I think that

01:14:34.060 --> 01:14:36.260
would really, really help with that moral injury

01:14:36.260 --> 01:14:39.359
of why didn't I save that person? I must have

01:14:39.359 --> 01:14:47.050
failed. Yeah. I got a few thoughts, if you don't

01:14:47.050 --> 01:14:51.189
mind. Please. You know, and it's very on point

01:14:51.189 --> 01:14:53.750
with what we're, you know, everything we're saying.

01:14:53.850 --> 01:14:57.289
I mean, I've thought a lot of times, like, why

01:14:57.289 --> 01:15:04.689
do police, fire, military, EMS, you know, what

01:15:04.689 --> 01:15:06.850
when this young person, if you go all the way

01:15:06.850 --> 01:15:08.430
back to the beginning of your journey, of mine,

01:15:08.550 --> 01:15:14.090
of anyone's, why? why do they say this is what

01:15:14.090 --> 01:15:16.630
I want to do? You know, and, and, and why do

01:15:16.630 --> 01:15:18.590
they sign their name? Why do they sign up? And,

01:15:18.670 --> 01:15:21.010
and, and I can only speak for me, right. But

01:15:21.010 --> 01:15:26.289
I think, and I hope that there's some, some similarities,

01:15:26.430 --> 01:15:27.989
you know what I mean? Like some, or maybe some

01:15:27.989 --> 01:15:29.510
connection, maybe not, I don't know. But for

01:15:29.510 --> 01:15:33.310
me, I wanted to do something bigger than myself.

01:15:33.409 --> 01:15:36.029
I wanted to serve a cause that I just felt was

01:15:36.029 --> 01:15:39.689
this good thing. It's like, you know, noble cause,

01:15:39.909 --> 01:15:41.949
you know, it felt like, okay, what am I going

01:15:41.949 --> 01:15:43.989
to do with my life? You know what I mean? Like,

01:15:43.989 --> 01:15:46.069
I don't really want to go to school long enough

01:15:46.069 --> 01:15:47.989
to be a lawyer or doctor and make gobs of cash,

01:15:48.029 --> 01:15:50.970
you know, and like, and I'm fine with working

01:15:50.970 --> 01:15:53.210
hard and living simple and having a little bit

01:15:53.210 --> 01:15:55.229
of fun. And, you know, I don't necessarily want

01:15:55.229 --> 01:15:58.189
to be like this wealthy, powerful person. I felt

01:15:58.189 --> 01:16:00.930
this, like, I want to, I want to serve, you know,

01:16:00.949 --> 01:16:05.119
I want to help. And You know, I don't know if

01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:07.239
that's true for others, you know, as to why they

01:16:07.239 --> 01:16:11.199
got in. And we've talked a little bit about like,

01:16:11.239 --> 01:16:14.399
you know, my faith when I was younger, you know,

01:16:14.399 --> 01:16:17.039
and how it was real to me as you know, it had

01:16:17.039 --> 01:16:18.779
been taught and kind of, you know, that's the

01:16:18.779 --> 01:16:20.760
way it's going to be. But then it became real

01:16:20.760 --> 01:16:22.720
to me and it became something that was important

01:16:22.720 --> 01:16:26.340
to me as a young person. And I did carry that

01:16:26.340 --> 01:16:28.119
into the fire service. I remember doing bringing

01:16:28.119 --> 01:16:31.039
my Bible when I was at Station 50. And, yeah,

01:16:31.180 --> 01:16:32.640
I was a little bit quiet about it. I was the

01:16:32.640 --> 01:16:34.020
rookie and whatnot. You know what I mean? But,

01:16:34.060 --> 01:16:37.119
like, I did carry that in as something that was

01:16:37.119 --> 01:16:41.520
very important to me. And it did, I think, looking

01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:45.060
back, help me. It was some heavy calls at 50.

01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:49.279
You know, 50, 51. You know, all the houses, 30,

01:16:49.420 --> 01:16:52.380
42. You know the ones where it's just like every

01:16:52.380 --> 01:16:57.060
day you're going to be playing in it. I do think

01:16:57.060 --> 01:17:00.600
that was something that really leaning into my

01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:03.140
faith, not having the county to teach me everything

01:17:03.140 --> 01:17:05.640
you just said, not having, but having that faith

01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:07.779
in that book that I read that basically said,

01:17:07.899 --> 01:17:09.880
Hey, there's a time to live. There's a time to

01:17:09.880 --> 01:17:15.119
die. You know, God decides not you. Um, you know,

01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:18.539
like, uh, you just do the best you can. And if

01:17:18.539 --> 01:17:20.720
you give me everything you've got, then, then

01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:22.899
well done my humble servant. You know what I

01:17:22.899 --> 01:17:25.659
mean? Like I'm proud of you. And I think I carried

01:17:25.659 --> 01:17:28.560
a lot of that, that definitely when I say like,

01:17:28.680 --> 01:17:30.720
oh, I just didn't think it affected me when I

01:17:30.720 --> 01:17:34.100
was new. I think maybe, you know, and I'm not

01:17:34.100 --> 01:17:36.239
trying to put this like, oh, this is the answer.

01:17:36.300 --> 01:17:39.340
This is the way. But for me, I think that was

01:17:39.340 --> 01:17:45.319
sort of my own CSIMs to an extent. But somewhere

01:17:45.319 --> 01:17:47.479
in the middle of my career, and this is where

01:17:47.479 --> 01:17:50.659
I'll just, I have to, I apologize. This is what

01:17:50.659 --> 01:17:56.439
I felt. I had to call you. I don't know how or

01:17:56.439 --> 01:18:00.779
when or where, but somewhere I just kind of decided,

01:18:00.920 --> 01:18:05.220
you know, I'm kind of tired of, I never have

01:18:05.220 --> 01:18:06.819
been a big church guy. You know, I just have

01:18:06.819 --> 01:18:09.460
been like a, you know, read it for myself and,

01:18:09.460 --> 01:18:12.140
you know, and have a faith and a relationship

01:18:12.140 --> 01:18:14.960
with God guy. But at some point I decided, yeah,

01:18:15.199 --> 01:18:17.500
I don't know, man. You know what I mean? Like

01:18:17.500 --> 01:18:22.320
I took such small steps away from that. that

01:18:22.320 --> 01:18:25.020
over a period of time that they became almost,

01:18:25.060 --> 01:18:27.579
I think to myself, unrecognizable. You know,

01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:31.260
I didn't really realize that I was deciding that

01:18:31.260 --> 01:18:33.380
clearly of a decision. You know, it didn't feel

01:18:33.380 --> 01:18:34.819
like that clear cut of decision. Like, yeah,

01:18:34.819 --> 01:18:35.720
I don't want anything to do with that anymore.

01:18:36.079 --> 01:18:37.859
You know, it's something I had been for a big

01:18:37.859 --> 01:18:40.279
portion of my life, but it was such a gradual

01:18:40.279 --> 01:18:44.119
shift and pull that I just slowly became less

01:18:44.119 --> 01:18:46.539
and less interested, less and less thinking,

01:18:46.640 --> 01:18:48.619
reading, praying, or anything about that. And

01:18:48.619 --> 01:18:50.460
more and more like, eh, I don't really care.

01:18:51.540 --> 01:18:55.699
And I don't know, like somewhere along the way,

01:18:55.720 --> 01:19:00.819
I lost myself. I lost what was, you know, important

01:19:00.819 --> 01:19:05.319
to me, what mattered to me. And I think, you

01:19:05.319 --> 01:19:10.020
know, I know that I lost a bit of a compass there,

01:19:10.140 --> 01:19:12.720
you know, a moral compass, if you will. And I

01:19:12.720 --> 01:19:17.659
kind of just started doing whatever I thought

01:19:17.659 --> 01:19:19.939
would make me feel good. You know what I mean?

01:19:19.979 --> 01:19:22.199
Like, like this trauma, these things and stuff,

01:19:22.319 --> 01:19:24.840
you know, and I started looking for value and

01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:27.579
things that I knew better. But I had taken a

01:19:27.579 --> 01:19:30.180
big shift from looking that direction to like,

01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:34.220
you know, maybe if I'm just really, really badass

01:19:34.220 --> 01:19:37.300
firefighter or engineer or lieutenant as I move

01:19:37.300 --> 01:19:39.640
up, maybe if I'm one of the best in the business,

01:19:39.720 --> 01:19:41.720
like a Carl Long or, you know what I mean? Then

01:19:41.720 --> 01:19:44.779
like people will look at me with this like, man,

01:19:44.800 --> 01:19:47.380
he's he knows what he's doing. Like, I trust

01:19:47.380 --> 01:19:50.289
that guy squared away. then I'll derive value

01:19:50.289 --> 01:19:54.289
from that. And I'll derive a self -worth from

01:19:54.289 --> 01:19:58.869
that. And so I placed way more emphasis on the

01:19:58.869 --> 01:20:02.270
career, on being, I don't want to say perfect,

01:20:02.329 --> 01:20:05.210
but like, yeah, if I can be that good, then I'll

01:20:05.210 --> 01:20:08.970
feel good, you know? And of course, you know,

01:20:08.970 --> 01:20:10.890
I'm not going to sit here and like picking all

01:20:10.890 --> 01:20:12.970
the other vices because we're not in a confessional

01:20:12.970 --> 01:20:14.630
and I don't think you want to go get your white

01:20:14.630 --> 01:20:18.130
collar. but a lot of the vices that that you

01:20:18.130 --> 01:20:20.409
know you see people in this profession fall into

01:20:20.409 --> 01:20:23.510
and i kind of think like this might happen with

01:20:23.510 --> 01:20:26.390
other police or military that they they started

01:20:26.390 --> 01:20:29.250
as this like relatively good person they think

01:20:29.250 --> 01:20:31.569
they looked at themselves in the mirror and they

01:20:31.569 --> 01:20:34.369
were pretty okay with who they saw they were

01:20:34.369 --> 01:20:36.649
like i'm not a bad person you know like i'm pretty

01:20:36.649 --> 01:20:39.689
all right guy or gal and i'm here to help people

01:20:39.689 --> 01:20:42.569
and i'm here to do good things and whether the

01:20:42.569 --> 01:20:45.350
trauma and the drama and and the blood and the

01:20:45.350 --> 01:20:49.170
guts and the mud and all the stuff i don't really

01:20:49.170 --> 01:20:52.130
know you know way more about that but somewhere

01:20:52.130 --> 01:20:54.729
along the line i think it's easy to lose yourself

01:20:54.729 --> 01:20:58.590
you know easy to whatever compass whatever thing

01:20:58.590 --> 01:21:02.090
you hung to that you started with it's easy to

01:21:02.090 --> 01:21:06.130
to definitely steer from that and i i know i

01:21:06.130 --> 01:21:09.930
did and at that point it's like you know now

01:21:09.930 --> 01:21:13.060
i'm in real trouble Because everything I'm basing

01:21:13.060 --> 01:21:15.520
my self -worth on, how I view myself in the mirror

01:21:15.520 --> 01:21:19.380
is so fragile, right? Because we're human. And

01:21:19.380 --> 01:21:22.920
now I'm going to go to work and mess up. I'm

01:21:22.920 --> 01:21:25.840
going to go to work and not run a call as perfectly

01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:27.840
as I wish I would have. I'm going to start getting

01:21:27.840 --> 01:21:29.720
more and more critical of myself. Like, damn

01:21:29.720 --> 01:21:32.899
it, Rob. Like, come on, do better, you know,

01:21:32.899 --> 01:21:36.420
and just get super critical inside. And I'm going

01:21:36.420 --> 01:21:38.979
to be more and more afraid to open up. because

01:21:38.979 --> 01:21:42.760
uh i don't have that security uh i'm gonna i

01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:44.840
don't want to look weak so i'm just gonna keep

01:21:44.840 --> 01:21:46.760
more and more of it in and smile and tell them

01:21:46.760 --> 01:21:50.619
good man yeah let me learn i got it and um you

01:21:50.619 --> 01:21:52.800
know it's that it starts to become this really

01:21:52.800 --> 01:21:57.800
hollow tower with really bad foundation and cracking

01:21:57.800 --> 01:22:00.800
rock and everything you're basing your i was

01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:03.619
basing my self -worth on like whether it be like

01:22:03.619 --> 01:22:08.449
like i said confessional level vices or the job

01:22:08.449 --> 01:22:12.550
and how I view myself in performance, you're

01:22:12.550 --> 01:22:14.750
going to fail. You know, you're going to fail

01:22:14.750 --> 01:22:16.229
because you're human. You're going to mess up.

01:22:16.229 --> 01:22:18.109
You're going to get things wrong from time to

01:22:18.109 --> 01:22:21.789
time. And your sense of worth. And so I know

01:22:21.789 --> 01:22:23.170
with me personally, I just chased it harder.

01:22:23.609 --> 01:22:25.810
Double down. You know what I mean? Like, you

01:22:25.810 --> 01:22:27.609
know, athletically and everything else in my

01:22:27.609 --> 01:22:28.970
life, if you're messing up, if you're not getting

01:22:28.970 --> 01:22:32.050
it right, work harder. Train harder. Dig in.

01:22:32.130 --> 01:22:33.609
You know what I mean? After a loss in hockey,

01:22:33.789 --> 01:22:35.989
be at the rink the next morning. You know what

01:22:35.989 --> 01:22:38.710
I mean? Like, okay, you know, like work harder,

01:22:38.810 --> 01:22:42.350
put in more effort. But at that time throughout

01:22:42.350 --> 01:22:45.670
the last, I'd say, I don't know, third or so

01:22:45.670 --> 01:22:49.130
of my career, I had lost who I knew myself to

01:22:49.130 --> 01:22:52.770
be. I was looking in every wrong spot for value.

01:22:53.670 --> 01:22:56.649
I was becoming someone at first in the mirror

01:22:56.649 --> 01:22:58.850
I didn't really recognize. You know what I mean?

01:22:58.909 --> 01:23:01.829
Like, you know, like you kind of like, you knew

01:23:01.829 --> 01:23:04.500
deep down. that you didn't approve of a lot of

01:23:04.500 --> 01:23:06.220
the way you were being the way you were treating

01:23:06.220 --> 01:23:10.500
other people um you knew you were better than

01:23:10.500 --> 01:23:12.979
how you were being but it was such this like

01:23:12.979 --> 01:23:16.560
far far far off thought that you're like yeah

01:23:16.560 --> 01:23:19.260
i don't know and the road back felt like so cloudy

01:23:19.260 --> 01:23:20.720
and impossible that you're like yeah whatever

01:23:20.720 --> 01:23:23.859
man yeah i'm good i'm good you know you tell

01:23:23.859 --> 01:23:27.640
yourself that lie and and you just keep walking

01:23:27.640 --> 01:23:30.199
down this dangerous path and then every mistake

01:23:30.199 --> 01:23:33.180
makes you feel more more worthless And, oh, I

01:23:33.180 --> 01:23:34.819
got to double down. I got to work harder. I can't

01:23:34.819 --> 01:23:36.439
make mistakes. I've got to be the best lieutenant.

01:23:37.020 --> 01:23:39.979
You know, and I'm not as smart as, you know,

01:23:39.979 --> 01:23:42.359
like I am who I am. I don't think I was terrible.

01:23:42.840 --> 01:23:44.420
But, you know, like when you place this value

01:23:44.420 --> 01:23:46.760
and you keep upping it, like I got to do better.

01:23:47.180 --> 01:23:50.760
You know, and you're starting to place an expectation

01:23:50.760 --> 01:23:53.560
that you can't reach. You know what I mean? Of

01:23:53.560 --> 01:23:56.460
like this almost perfect leader, this perfect

01:23:56.460 --> 01:23:58.319
person. And then the more mistakes you make,

01:23:58.359 --> 01:24:01.609
the more, the worse you view yourself. And I

01:24:01.609 --> 01:24:05.270
know with me personally, it went from like not

01:24:05.270 --> 01:24:08.149
recognizing who I saw in the mirror to once I

01:24:08.149 --> 01:24:09.850
had really made some big mistakes in my life

01:24:09.850 --> 01:24:14.329
to despising the person I saw in the mirror.

01:24:14.710 --> 01:24:16.310
To like looking at that person and being like,

01:24:16.329 --> 01:24:21.069
oh, God, you're not a good guy. You know what

01:24:21.069 --> 01:24:23.590
I mean? And then you feel that in your gut and

01:24:23.590 --> 01:24:26.470
you're like, to me, that's the beginning stages

01:24:26.470 --> 01:24:30.600
of like the really scary. scary part of depression

01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:34.920
and suicidal thoughts because you don't like

01:24:34.920 --> 01:24:38.880
you. You're not proud of you. And you started

01:24:38.880 --> 01:24:43.000
this job to be this helper of others and to be

01:24:43.000 --> 01:24:45.220
this good person and to do this noble thing.

01:24:45.420 --> 01:24:48.779
And you were willing to die to do it. You were

01:24:48.779 --> 01:24:51.500
willing to prove, you were willing to give your

01:24:51.500 --> 01:24:53.939
life for a noble cause. You already made the

01:24:53.939 --> 01:24:56.739
decision. If that house is rolling and James

01:24:56.739 --> 01:24:59.760
is in there. And he calls a mayday. I'm going,

01:24:59.880 --> 01:25:01.859
you know what I mean? I don't care if a battalion

01:25:01.859 --> 01:25:04.039
chief, I don't care if there's a cop, like you're

01:25:04.039 --> 01:25:06.779
going to have to shoot me. I'm going, you know,

01:25:06.779 --> 01:25:09.619
and if, and if I don't come out, you know, then

01:25:09.619 --> 01:25:12.640
I don't come out. But if he's in there, you know

01:25:12.640 --> 01:25:14.819
what I mean? You just, I had that mentality when,

01:25:14.859 --> 01:25:17.119
when I was in the right places in my life. Right.

01:25:17.159 --> 01:25:18.819
So to me, you've already accepted this and whether

01:25:18.819 --> 01:25:20.640
a soldier or police officer accepts like the,

01:25:20.680 --> 01:25:24.069
I might die. but it's ultra noble and it's a

01:25:24.069 --> 01:25:26.010
good thing. And if it comes to that, it comes

01:25:26.010 --> 01:25:27.989
to that. I'm not going to back down in that moment.

01:25:28.550 --> 01:25:31.789
You know, you've already decided. And now way

01:25:31.789 --> 01:25:33.609
later in your career, you've got these really

01:25:33.609 --> 01:25:36.750
bad self -worth. You're disgusted with yourself.

01:25:37.550 --> 01:25:40.609
You see where I'm going. It's like, you've already

01:25:40.609 --> 01:25:43.810
decided for a noble cause, if I die, obviously

01:25:43.810 --> 01:25:47.210
non -suicide, that like, that if I die, I die,

01:25:47.329 --> 01:25:48.909
but I'm going to do it doing the right things.

01:25:49.109 --> 01:25:51.649
And now on this end, You see yourself as someone

01:25:51.649 --> 01:25:54.750
who does the wrong things, a bad person, and

01:25:54.750 --> 01:25:57.210
you're just, and by the way, those are lies.

01:25:57.550 --> 01:26:00.109
You know, you know that, I know that, but they

01:26:00.109 --> 01:26:02.770
feel real. They feel really, really, really real.

01:26:02.850 --> 01:26:04.909
And so it's like, you know, you just feel like,

01:26:04.970 --> 01:26:08.149
okay, I sort of already accepted I might die.

01:26:08.609 --> 01:26:10.989
Now all I do is seem to hurt those I care about,

01:26:11.130 --> 01:26:14.829
you know, family members. loved ones. I seem

01:26:14.829 --> 01:26:17.649
to not, I'm not being a great officer. And by

01:26:17.649 --> 01:26:20.069
the way, I do want to apologize. I don't think

01:26:20.069 --> 01:26:21.529
I was like terrible, but I do want to apologize

01:26:21.529 --> 01:26:24.050
to an extent to some that maybe, you know, I

01:26:24.050 --> 01:26:26.810
worked with it. Like there was times I wasn't

01:26:26.810 --> 01:26:29.229
in it, you know, I was struggling. I was faking

01:26:29.229 --> 01:26:31.170
it and I wasn't in it. And I could have been

01:26:31.170 --> 01:26:34.630
a phenomenally better friend, leader, whole nine

01:26:34.630 --> 01:26:39.630
yards. And, but anyway, so just kind of, and

01:26:39.630 --> 01:26:41.430
I don't want to, I don't want to go on forever,

01:26:41.590 --> 01:26:44.979
but. I think kind of mixing in with that too.

01:26:45.600 --> 01:26:47.819
There's a thought of like, I've seen so much

01:26:47.819 --> 01:26:51.920
as you touched on death, trauma, so much blood,

01:26:51.960 --> 01:26:54.220
so much. And you see so much loss and you hear

01:26:54.220 --> 01:26:55.779
so much wailing and screaming of family members

01:26:55.779 --> 01:26:58.079
that to me, I started to feel like, okay, wait

01:26:58.079 --> 01:27:02.220
a minute. Everybody walks this like loss. I'm

01:27:02.220 --> 01:27:05.500
not exempt. I'm no different. Everyone I love

01:27:05.500 --> 01:27:07.479
is going to die and possibly right in front of

01:27:07.479 --> 01:27:10.020
me. Everything I care about is going to go away,

01:27:10.100 --> 01:27:14.050
you know, and. what's the point of life? You

01:27:14.050 --> 01:27:16.109
know what I mean? When I was in that dark, depressive

01:27:16.109 --> 01:27:18.470
kind of mode, you're like, nothing means anything,

01:27:18.630 --> 01:27:21.270
you know? And that further became a justification

01:27:21.270 --> 01:27:24.270
for irresponsible bad behavior. Cause I'm like,

01:27:24.350 --> 01:27:27.649
you know, eat, drink and be merry. Tomorrow you

01:27:27.649 --> 01:27:29.449
die. You know, like, it's just like, it doesn't

01:27:29.449 --> 01:27:32.750
matter. Nothing matters. And you've lost that,

01:27:32.789 --> 01:27:35.890
that purpose, that cause, that why, you know,

01:27:35.890 --> 01:27:38.449
like you don't have a why for why you're here.

01:27:39.189 --> 01:27:43.130
You don't have a purpose. To me, I allowed it

01:27:43.130 --> 01:27:44.770
to an extent, I think. I'm not trying to be too

01:27:44.770 --> 01:27:47.989
hard on myself, but my purpose to become corrupted,

01:27:48.130 --> 01:27:52.890
you know. And, you know, looking back, and I'm

01:27:52.890 --> 01:27:57.949
almost done with my hijack of the thread here.

01:27:58.029 --> 01:28:02.989
But, you know, it was after I retired, James,

01:28:03.130 --> 01:28:05.649
you know, and I really still kind of thought,

01:28:05.710 --> 01:28:09.069
I knew I was struggling at the time. for that

01:28:09.069 --> 01:28:11.390
last part of my career. And after retiring, I

01:28:11.390 --> 01:28:13.050
knew, and I always thought I would do more than

01:28:13.050 --> 01:28:14.890
25. I thought I would do that and the drop and

01:28:14.890 --> 01:28:17.689
whatever else. And I got near the end and I was

01:28:17.689 --> 01:28:21.069
really struggling mentally, psychologically,

01:28:21.090 --> 01:28:23.689
spiritually, the whole nine yards. And I started

01:28:23.689 --> 01:28:27.010
feeling like, man, I'd really rather eat a bullet

01:28:27.010 --> 01:28:29.090
than go back to work. You know, like I just,

01:28:29.210 --> 01:28:32.909
I didn't want to go. And I was struggling. I

01:28:32.909 --> 01:28:34.310
was able to share some of that with my wife.

01:28:34.409 --> 01:28:37.229
She has been so patient and so loving. She truly

01:28:37.229 --> 01:28:39.819
has been. a first responder without being when

01:28:39.819 --> 01:28:41.979
she saved, she, I don't say it lately. I think

01:28:41.979 --> 01:28:45.300
she saved my life, but cause she never, she's

01:28:45.300 --> 01:28:47.859
always been a very strong believer, but she never

01:28:47.859 --> 01:28:50.560
pushed, pulled her pride. Cause I'm the type,

01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:52.439
if I get pushed or pulled too hard towards something,

01:28:52.539 --> 01:28:54.380
it's not happening. You know what I mean? If

01:28:54.380 --> 01:28:55.960
you push me too hard to something, I'm not ready

01:28:55.960 --> 01:28:57.560
to hear what I'm like. It's almost like Greg

01:28:57.560 --> 01:28:59.260
Pines telling you that the British firefighters

01:28:59.260 --> 01:29:01.739
don't go inside. You're like, yep. Okay. I'm

01:29:01.739 --> 01:29:03.560
done listening. You know, like it's, it's offensive,

01:29:03.619 --> 01:29:10.119
you know? And so I, She was so patient and so

01:29:10.119 --> 01:29:13.699
wonderful. And she just, I think, never gave

01:29:13.699 --> 01:29:15.899
up on me, on praying for me, on being patient,

01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:18.340
on not pushing me. But I was able to share towards

01:29:18.340 --> 01:29:19.939
the end of my career how bad I was struggling.

01:29:20.600 --> 01:29:23.100
And I wasn't able to articulate it as clearly

01:29:23.100 --> 01:29:25.319
as I see it now. But I was able to just tell

01:29:25.319 --> 01:29:29.079
her, like, man, I'm done. Like, I don't want

01:29:29.079 --> 01:29:31.060
to go play pretend anymore. Like, I used to feel

01:29:31.060 --> 01:29:33.779
this. And now I feel like I'm putting the hat

01:29:33.779 --> 01:29:37.020
on. to uh to just go do my job and i've always

01:29:37.020 --> 01:29:39.720
said like lead follower get out of the way you

01:29:39.720 --> 01:29:42.420
know what i mean be about it or move and and

01:29:42.420 --> 01:29:44.520
i did that on the truck i did that in special

01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:48.300
ops with with with on the orlando i and i and

01:29:48.300 --> 01:29:50.159
there came a time when i left that and towards

01:29:50.159 --> 01:29:52.100
in my career i transferred out of that environment

01:29:52.100 --> 01:29:56.560
because i really felt like i was starting to

01:29:56.560 --> 01:30:01.600
grasp at it and i wasn't eating it you know with

01:30:01.600 --> 01:30:04.779
love and joy as much as i used to And I started

01:30:04.779 --> 01:30:07.020
to feel like that even though maybe no one was

01:30:07.020 --> 01:30:10.520
noticing, I knew that I wasn't the best lieutenant

01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:13.039
I could be on that truck. And there was other

01:30:13.039 --> 01:30:15.260
guys that were hungry. Oh, they were hungry.

01:30:15.399 --> 01:30:17.720
They were as hungry as I used to be. And they

01:30:17.720 --> 01:30:20.659
wanted it so bad. And I had to look at my crew.

01:30:20.779 --> 01:30:22.880
And that's one thing I can say I'm kind of proud

01:30:22.880 --> 01:30:25.340
of and feel like I can't be a hypocrite. You

01:30:25.340 --> 01:30:27.180
know, I've always said, be about it or move.

01:30:27.800 --> 01:30:30.100
You know, be all in or get out of the way. Stop

01:30:30.100 --> 01:30:33.970
occupying the spot. And as that started to become

01:30:33.970 --> 01:30:36.050
real to me, I'm like, I got to get out of this

01:30:36.050 --> 01:30:38.170
environment and downgrade a bit because there's

01:30:38.170 --> 01:30:40.989
people that are hungrier that quite simply will

01:30:40.989 --> 01:30:43.329
do a better job than I'm doing right now. Like

01:30:43.329 --> 01:30:44.489
I said, I don't think I was doing a terrible

01:30:44.489 --> 01:30:46.869
one, but like Donnie Krantz came into 54 Truck

01:30:46.869 --> 01:30:49.010
eventually. He was who I tried to peg for it

01:30:49.010 --> 01:30:51.170
when I was first leaving and it didn't quite

01:30:51.170 --> 01:30:53.670
work out that way. I think he's there now. Man,

01:30:53.789 --> 01:30:55.970
what a heavy hitter. You know, what a guy that

01:30:55.970 --> 01:30:59.649
just, I mean, just brings the A game, you know?

01:31:00.109 --> 01:31:01.970
And when I started to feel that a game become

01:31:01.970 --> 01:31:04.689
an a minus or a B plus, just because it's the

01:31:04.689 --> 01:31:07.250
best I could do at that time, you can start to

01:31:07.250 --> 01:31:10.390
say to yourself, well, I'm doing my best. Yeah.

01:31:10.550 --> 01:31:14.670
But, but, but to wrap it all up, it was after

01:31:14.670 --> 01:31:18.649
I retired and I was struggling. I was, I just

01:31:18.649 --> 01:31:20.409
expected to feel better. The second I came home,

01:31:20.430 --> 01:31:23.130
you asked me and passing the other day, how'd

01:31:23.130 --> 01:31:24.670
you feel? You know, when you came home and I

01:31:24.670 --> 01:31:26.369
said like, almost like a man let out of prison.

01:31:26.890 --> 01:31:29.229
Like, wow, you know, like I don't have to hear

01:31:29.229 --> 01:31:32.109
the tones anymore. I don't have to go to multi

01:31:32.109 --> 01:31:34.550
-company. I don't have to have the fear of looking

01:31:34.550 --> 01:31:36.390
stupid in front of peers. I mean, that alone,

01:31:36.510 --> 01:31:38.829
I think kills a lot of us. You know, it's crazy.

01:31:39.510 --> 01:31:42.689
It's not okay to be wrong ever. And it's like,

01:31:42.750 --> 01:31:45.010
come on, we're human. I get that in our profession,

01:31:45.229 --> 01:31:47.689
we should be a game, but there has to be a balance.

01:31:48.250 --> 01:31:50.109
You know what I mean? And a lot of times I think

01:31:50.109 --> 01:31:52.069
that balance gets lost. And if you're wrong once

01:31:52.069 --> 01:31:54.069
or look off once at training, then everybody

01:31:54.069 --> 01:31:55.449
just kind of turns their head and glares at you

01:31:55.449 --> 01:31:58.399
like, wow. you're an idiot and you've worked

01:31:58.399 --> 01:31:59.960
your whole career to not be an idiot. Now you

01:31:59.960 --> 01:32:02.079
feel like, wow, I'm, I'm worthless. You know

01:32:02.079 --> 01:32:03.699
what I mean? Like that one mistake, you know?

01:32:04.319 --> 01:32:08.640
And, uh, it was after I retired Walt Lewis from

01:32:08.640 --> 01:32:10.100
Orlando. I had known him from hockey, called

01:32:10.100 --> 01:32:12.899
me up and said, uh, Tom Hill, you know, bull,

01:32:12.899 --> 01:32:15.880
bull needs help. And we don't know anyone else

01:32:15.880 --> 01:32:17.920
who knows anything about a boat and you've kind

01:32:17.920 --> 01:32:19.399
of put yours back together. And that's kind of

01:32:19.399 --> 01:32:21.880
your thing. Can you help? And I have a high respect

01:32:21.880 --> 01:32:24.479
for Walt. And I have a high respect for Bull.

01:32:24.760 --> 01:32:28.359
What Bull did for others cannot be, could never

01:32:28.359 --> 01:32:32.260
be understated, ever. And by the way, he'd been

01:32:32.260 --> 01:32:34.279
my senior when I was at 50. They kind of put

01:32:34.279 --> 01:32:38.560
you with a senior fireman to learn. And I'd been

01:32:38.560 --> 01:32:40.520
in a couple of fires with Bull. We pulled a victim

01:32:40.520 --> 01:32:43.579
out that didn't make it. I had worked with Tom.

01:32:44.239 --> 01:32:47.380
And I didn't realize things had gotten pretty

01:32:47.380 --> 01:32:51.840
rough for him. When Walt asked me to help, it

01:32:51.840 --> 01:32:53.300
was just, it was a clear, you know, it was, there's

01:32:53.300 --> 01:32:56.399
no way. One, I could say no to helping Tom. I

01:32:56.399 --> 01:32:57.720
just retired. What was I going to be like? No,

01:32:57.819 --> 01:33:02.500
I'm busy. Like, you know, no. I agreed because

01:33:02.500 --> 01:33:04.720
it was just the right thing to do, but it became

01:33:04.720 --> 01:33:07.159
probably the closest I've ever come, James. And

01:33:07.159 --> 01:33:08.720
this is hard for me to admit. This is bearing

01:33:08.720 --> 01:33:10.720
my soul in just the hopes that helps other people

01:33:10.720 --> 01:33:16.279
somewhere. Here I was in this, like, not liking

01:33:16.279 --> 01:33:20.970
myself, disgusted with who I had become. trying

01:33:20.970 --> 01:33:24.029
to find value and purpose. Now the job's gone.

01:33:24.470 --> 01:33:26.329
And as much as I thought that would make it better,

01:33:26.430 --> 01:33:29.470
now I'm not even showing up to work, you know,

01:33:29.470 --> 01:33:33.029
to answer a tone or to go make a difference or

01:33:33.029 --> 01:33:34.850
to try to lead people or teach people or train

01:33:34.850 --> 01:33:37.470
people how to search. I wasn't doing anything

01:33:37.470 --> 01:33:42.369
that felt like cause, like a purpose. And mix

01:33:42.369 --> 01:33:44.930
that in with then, I felt, okay, yeah, sure,

01:33:45.029 --> 01:33:46.510
this is going to feel great. Let's go help Tom.

01:33:47.880 --> 01:33:49.899
Tom's real. He'll tell you exactly how it is.

01:33:50.779 --> 01:33:54.439
And Tom took me aside a couple times to let me

01:33:54.439 --> 01:33:56.899
know exactly how it was. And a few times, you

01:33:56.899 --> 01:33:58.500
know, kind of through the process, him and I

01:33:58.500 --> 01:34:00.319
had to have a few back and forth conversations.

01:34:00.439 --> 01:34:03.899
But it became this confusing time. Here I am

01:34:03.899 --> 01:34:08.659
helping someone that should feel good. And I

01:34:08.659 --> 01:34:11.199
didn't like who I was. And it just got super

01:34:11.199 --> 01:34:13.460
confusing. And it was a frustrating process.

01:34:13.680 --> 01:34:16.260
Tom was going through a lot of things emotionally.

01:34:16.970 --> 01:34:19.970
uh psychologically mentally he was dealing with

01:34:19.970 --> 01:34:22.609
a lot of trauma because he's soaked up more than

01:34:22.609 --> 01:34:25.409
than he ever should have soaked up and he was

01:34:25.409 --> 01:34:28.329
going through a lot of trauma and trying to help

01:34:28.329 --> 01:34:31.390
him occasionally had some of this and some challenges

01:34:31.390 --> 01:34:34.390
um and i'm a hardhead too so i'm not saying that

01:34:34.390 --> 01:34:38.010
it was one -sided um being involved in that should

01:34:38.010 --> 01:34:40.130
have been this like ultra great feel -good project

01:34:40.130 --> 01:34:45.130
and um there was a night early on that uh i hit

01:34:45.130 --> 01:34:49.600
the lowest i've ever hit And I felt myself really

01:34:49.600 --> 01:34:54.560
wanting just to exit right there, just to end

01:34:54.560 --> 01:34:58.819
it. I mean, wanting. And I just, and the worst

01:34:58.819 --> 01:35:00.979
part was it didn't really scare me. And I think

01:35:00.979 --> 01:35:03.659
I had been fighting it off for so long. And I

01:35:03.659 --> 01:35:05.819
had had those like, you know, almost like I tried

01:35:05.819 --> 01:35:07.920
to stay, oh, you got to look tough. You got to

01:35:07.920 --> 01:35:09.640
look strong. You can't voice any of this stuff.

01:35:09.960 --> 01:35:12.279
Throughout my career, I think I've been fighting

01:35:12.279 --> 01:35:14.420
it for a while to the point where, but I just

01:35:14.420 --> 01:35:17.140
like, no, nah, you know. You're not thinking

01:35:17.140 --> 01:35:19.319
that. You're not feeling that. Shut up. Stop.

01:35:19.859 --> 01:35:21.840
I think I'd been fighting it off long enough

01:35:21.840 --> 01:35:25.979
that that particular evening, it hit like a ton

01:35:25.979 --> 01:35:30.140
of bricks. And it got scary. And I've talked

01:35:30.140 --> 01:35:32.239
about my faith and spirituality. And I called

01:35:32.239 --> 01:35:35.000
out. I feel like I was being attacked by the

01:35:35.000 --> 01:35:39.640
dark, if you will. Like they just had me. And

01:35:39.640 --> 01:35:41.819
I called out to my wife. We'd had a fight that

01:35:41.819 --> 01:35:44.619
night. And I felt deep down like it was all my

01:35:44.619 --> 01:35:47.329
fault. And then I was this big jerk that, um,

01:35:47.329 --> 01:35:50.109
that just continually hurts people that I love,

01:35:50.210 --> 01:35:54.329
you know? And, um, I called out to her cause

01:35:54.329 --> 01:35:56.170
you know, like we were, I was, we live in a boat,

01:35:56.229 --> 01:35:57.750
you know, I'm in the wheelhouse right now. I

01:35:57.750 --> 01:35:59.590
was like standing like five feet over there and

01:35:59.590 --> 01:36:01.869
she was in the room behind us and I just called

01:36:01.869 --> 01:36:03.350
out to her and I just said like, I need help.

01:36:03.989 --> 01:36:05.890
Cause I was eyeballing my pistol sitting on the

01:36:05.890 --> 01:36:09.090
counter. I'm like, I need help. And I just, and

01:36:09.090 --> 01:36:13.829
she came in and, uh, she, uh, she just hugged

01:36:13.829 --> 01:36:17.949
me and held me. And she started denouncing the

01:36:17.949 --> 01:36:20.210
enemy. She started, you know, just praying with

01:36:20.210 --> 01:36:21.810
me. And she started holding me and praying with

01:36:21.810 --> 01:36:25.689
me. And I sobbed like a baby. And, you know,

01:36:25.729 --> 01:36:31.010
she just kept praying with me. And I talked to

01:36:31.010 --> 01:36:32.890
Bull about that. He told some others, which kind

01:36:32.890 --> 01:36:34.310
of pissed me off because I wasn't really ready

01:36:34.310 --> 01:36:37.029
to share it. And I remember telling Tom, like,

01:36:37.050 --> 01:36:38.850
Tom, just because I tell you something doesn't

01:36:38.850 --> 01:36:40.850
mean, like, you know, it can end up on Gearing's

01:36:40.850 --> 01:36:42.829
podcast, which I don't think he did. But he told

01:36:42.829 --> 01:36:47.149
some other people. And, uh, you know, I, um,

01:36:47.310 --> 01:36:51.189
I don't know, you know, it scared me. It scared

01:36:51.189 --> 01:36:55.850
me. I was, I was, it wasn't just that I was close.

01:36:56.010 --> 01:36:57.850
It was that I was okay with it. I didn't care,

01:36:57.989 --> 01:37:02.090
you know? And, um, she prayed with me. She, she

01:37:02.090 --> 01:37:04.850
held me. She, we just talked and it was a lot

01:37:04.850 --> 01:37:07.189
of tears that night and a lot of just like, I

01:37:07.189 --> 01:37:08.789
was able after that for the first time to get

01:37:08.789 --> 01:37:12.270
some of this out. Like, I feel like such a loser.

01:37:12.369 --> 01:37:15.140
I feel like such an asshole. And here's why.

01:37:15.500 --> 01:37:18.739
And just talk it through. And it feels so real

01:37:18.739 --> 01:37:20.199
to you. But as you start talking it through,

01:37:20.260 --> 01:37:23.500
even your mind, you're thinking, wait, why are

01:37:23.500 --> 01:37:26.260
you beating yourself up? Why do you feel like

01:37:26.260 --> 01:37:30.140
such an asshole for this? This and this, I kind

01:37:30.140 --> 01:37:32.899
of understand. But like this one, wait a minute,

01:37:33.000 --> 01:37:35.079
you're not being fair to yourself, you know?

01:37:35.220 --> 01:37:37.319
And of course, she was telling me that. And she's

01:37:37.319 --> 01:37:39.300
very good. You know, when someone's hurting,

01:37:39.359 --> 01:37:41.600
the last thing they want to hear is, oh, stop

01:37:41.600 --> 01:37:44.239
it. you're wrong. Even if you're wrong. If you

01:37:44.239 --> 01:37:45.640
were telling me right now, like Rob, I'm really

01:37:45.640 --> 01:37:47.699
hurting with this. The last thing you'd want

01:37:47.699 --> 01:37:49.060
to hear is like, James, you're just being crazy.

01:37:49.380 --> 01:37:51.659
Even if you're wrong, the last thing you need

01:37:51.659 --> 01:37:54.439
to hear, you need to hear like a, Hey man, that

01:37:54.439 --> 01:37:57.079
sucks. That's tough. You need to hear a validation

01:37:57.079 --> 01:37:59.319
because it's real. And when someone just like

01:37:59.319 --> 01:38:01.640
blows it off, even if they mean well, I'm like,

01:38:01.680 --> 01:38:03.939
Oh, stop it. You're wrong. It just feels like

01:38:03.939 --> 01:38:06.880
they don't get it. You know? And they don't connect

01:38:06.880 --> 01:38:09.619
with you at all. She, she never, she never went

01:38:09.619 --> 01:38:13.060
there with me on that, but The last kind of thing

01:38:13.060 --> 01:38:16.159
with this is that I have slowly. It didn't happen

01:38:16.159 --> 01:38:19.319
that week. It happened slowly. I think she just

01:38:19.319 --> 01:38:21.300
never stopped praying for me. But I finally decided.

01:38:21.399 --> 01:38:23.279
I told her, I said, look, I'm not about going

01:38:23.279 --> 01:38:26.220
to church on Sundays. But I'll spend some time

01:38:26.220 --> 01:38:28.739
in the Word with you on Sunday. You know, a little

01:38:28.739 --> 01:38:32.100
you and me and reading a little bit and thinking

01:38:32.100 --> 01:38:34.960
about it. And there's this show called The Chosen.

01:38:35.340 --> 01:38:38.180
It's well produced. And it's really just about

01:38:38.180 --> 01:38:41.319
the life of Christ. And I'll watch some of that

01:38:41.319 --> 01:38:43.579
with you. And, you know, and it just it's gotten

01:38:43.579 --> 01:38:46.180
to the point now where I just like I said, I

01:38:46.180 --> 01:38:48.560
don't want to come off sound like I don't want

01:38:48.560 --> 01:38:50.319
to drive people away. But the fact of the matter

01:38:50.319 --> 01:38:53.500
is God has healed me and it's going to be an

01:38:53.500 --> 01:38:55.340
ongoing process. I'm always going to be a work

01:38:55.340 --> 01:38:58.560
in progress. I'm always going to be flawed. I'm

01:38:58.560 --> 01:39:01.340
always going to make mistakes. But we spend time

01:39:01.340 --> 01:39:06.119
in the Bible every morning. I don't dread it

01:39:06.119 --> 01:39:07.800
like, you know, like a five year old getting

01:39:07.800 --> 01:39:10.489
drugged to church. I have a lot to do on this

01:39:10.489 --> 01:39:12.649
boat. I have a lot to do every day. But the time

01:39:12.649 --> 01:39:17.149
spent there, you go, wow. Like, I look at a lot

01:39:17.149 --> 01:39:18.789
of this stuff in the Bible, and I'm like, this

01:39:18.789 --> 01:39:21.590
guy was a complete screw -up. You know what I

01:39:21.590 --> 01:39:24.409
mean? Like, this guy, like, murdered his brother

01:39:24.409 --> 01:39:26.210
to sleep with his brother's wife. You know what

01:39:26.210 --> 01:39:27.689
I mean? Like, you look at some of this stuff,

01:39:27.789 --> 01:39:29.890
and you're like, some of these people were, like,

01:39:29.909 --> 01:39:33.329
not good people. But they got real with God,

01:39:33.470 --> 01:39:35.350
and they got on their face, and they're like.

01:39:35.720 --> 01:39:38.739
Man, I, you know, or God found them and convicted

01:39:38.739 --> 01:39:41.239
them and said, hey, look, I've got a plan for

01:39:41.239 --> 01:39:45.039
you. Stop it. You know, follow me, walk with

01:39:45.039 --> 01:39:48.000
me. And like it came back to like that. There's

01:39:48.000 --> 01:39:51.239
a plan. There's a purpose. There's a why. You

01:39:51.239 --> 01:39:54.920
know, I feel like my life isn't over at all.

01:39:54.939 --> 01:39:56.880
Like it's just starting. You know, I have a chance

01:39:56.880 --> 01:39:59.779
now to get this boat together. There's a lot

01:39:59.779 --> 01:40:01.359
of missionary services that take things down

01:40:01.359 --> 01:40:04.710
island. and um the most of their airplanes but

01:40:04.710 --> 01:40:06.449
sometimes there's too much cargo too heavy to

01:40:06.449 --> 01:40:08.810
carry on an airplane you know why can't i occasionally

01:40:08.810 --> 01:40:11.630
load up the boat and uh and go down island to

01:40:11.630 --> 01:40:13.710
do something for others you know to do something

01:40:13.710 --> 01:40:16.090
for an orphanage or or something down there that

01:40:16.090 --> 01:40:18.550
it'll just feel like it's what you're supposed

01:40:18.550 --> 01:40:23.050
to be doing you know a lie and um i i didn't

01:40:23.050 --> 01:40:26.029
mean to hijack anything that was my when i started

01:40:26.029 --> 01:40:29.350
feeling this a couple weeks back or whenever

01:40:29.350 --> 01:40:33.079
when i reached out to you I felt like God was

01:40:33.079 --> 01:40:36.140
saying like, hey, you've had quite a trip. You

01:40:36.140 --> 01:40:38.119
know, you've had this journey and you've gone

01:40:38.119 --> 01:40:41.420
from like here to here to even lower and lower

01:40:41.420 --> 01:40:44.420
yet. And, you know, I've brought you back out

01:40:44.420 --> 01:40:49.399
of it, you know, and here we are. I would like

01:40:49.399 --> 01:40:51.840
for you to share that. And it terrified me. I'm

01:40:51.840 --> 01:40:53.500
like, man, I don't want to tell everybody this.

01:40:53.699 --> 01:40:56.520
You know what I mean? Like this is. But when

01:40:56.520 --> 01:40:58.439
I first talked to you, I thought, well, there's

01:40:58.439 --> 01:41:01.659
only one person I know. And he's phenomenal at

01:41:01.659 --> 01:41:03.739
this. And I can't tell you the difference I feel

01:41:03.739 --> 01:41:05.880
you're making in people's lives. Like there's

01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:07.560
only one person I know that has this platform

01:41:07.560 --> 01:41:09.720
and I'll reach out to him. And if he's like,

01:41:09.800 --> 01:41:12.079
yeah, cool story, but you're kind of a quack.

01:41:12.140 --> 01:41:13.479
I don't want to talk to you. I'm like, okay,

01:41:13.539 --> 01:41:15.520
cool. That's what I said. I don't know why you

01:41:15.520 --> 01:41:18.680
showed up. Yeah. Right. I'm like, okay, cool.

01:41:18.720 --> 01:41:20.340
I'm off the hook. I don't have to do this, you

01:41:20.340 --> 01:41:24.000
know, but you took me up on it and thank you.

01:41:24.720 --> 01:41:28.720
And yeah, that's really it. I promise I'm done

01:41:28.720 --> 01:41:33.239
with my. My Irish spring box, you know. No, but

01:41:33.239 --> 01:41:34.720
this is why you're here, though. This is the

01:41:34.720 --> 01:41:36.300
point. You know, like I've always said, you know,

01:41:36.300 --> 01:41:39.659
I'm only here just to kind of begin conversations

01:41:39.659 --> 01:41:41.439
to go a little bit back and forth. But I mean,

01:41:41.460 --> 01:41:44.020
the whole point is for the people that come on

01:41:44.020 --> 01:41:46.560
to tell their story. A couple of things I want

01:41:46.560 --> 01:41:48.539
to go back because, I mean, it's such a powerful

01:41:48.539 --> 01:41:50.420
testimony. And thank you for having the courage

01:41:50.420 --> 01:41:52.859
because, you know, as everyone that's worked

01:41:52.859 --> 01:41:54.680
in Orange County knows, you know, you were this

01:41:54.680 --> 01:41:58.000
revered special ops, you know. hockey playing

01:41:58.000 --> 01:42:01.579
you know we drank a lot of whiskey at uh you

01:42:01.579 --> 01:42:03.939
know many irish band like flogging molly concerts

01:42:03.939 --> 01:42:06.640
so that's who a lot of people know and this is

01:42:06.640 --> 01:42:08.880
these are those those were fun they were fun

01:42:08.880 --> 01:42:10.739
i think i think the lead singer is not doing

01:42:10.739 --> 01:42:12.479
well now so i don't know if we're gonna see any

01:42:12.479 --> 01:42:14.699
more of those sadly but i had heard that and

01:42:14.699 --> 01:42:16.319
then i heard he was doing better and coming back

01:42:16.319 --> 01:42:19.579
so oh good you know if they do another concert

01:42:19.579 --> 01:42:21.300
at house of blues i'll meet you there that sounds

01:42:21.300 --> 01:42:24.699
good So going back to the darkest point, though,

01:42:24.739 --> 01:42:26.760
because this is something I mean, I literally

01:42:26.760 --> 01:42:29.460
as we sit here now, there's twelve hundred episodes

01:42:29.460 --> 01:42:34.000
of this podcast gone, gone out. And so as I started

01:42:34.000 --> 01:42:37.520
progressing through early on, there were a couple

01:42:37.520 --> 01:42:40.359
of, you know, a couple of common denominators

01:42:40.359 --> 01:42:42.579
when it came to people getting the lowest point

01:42:42.579 --> 01:42:44.539
that you just talked about. One was obviously

01:42:44.539 --> 01:42:47.100
wanting the suffering to end, the pain to end,

01:42:47.199 --> 01:42:48.939
you know, or wanting to feel something, whatever

01:42:48.939 --> 01:42:51.239
it is. And that, you know, we're all pretty aware

01:42:51.239 --> 01:42:53.960
of. but the other thing that really surprised

01:42:53.960 --> 01:42:56.600
me that you just don't hear discussed normally

01:42:56.600 --> 01:43:00.300
certainly not back then was this feeling of burdensome

01:43:00.300 --> 01:43:03.520
that when there was this perfect storm of all

01:43:03.520 --> 01:43:05.800
the contributing factors the trauma that we see

01:43:05.800 --> 01:43:08.079
the sleep deprivation the organizational betrayal

01:43:08.079 --> 01:43:10.560
you know all the things the side effects of alcohols

01:43:10.560 --> 01:43:15.090
just just everything compounding that the person's

01:43:15.090 --> 01:43:17.930
reality has actually been shifted and it can

01:43:17.930 --> 01:43:20.109
be labeled as the devil whispering or, you know,

01:43:20.130 --> 01:43:21.930
whatever the neuroscience, whatever we want to

01:43:21.930 --> 01:43:25.609
look at it as to where that person believes that

01:43:25.609 --> 01:43:28.630
they are a burden to the ones that they love.

01:43:28.750 --> 01:43:31.270
And if I just remove myself, everyone will be

01:43:31.270 --> 01:43:34.470
happier. And it really knocks against what we

01:43:34.470 --> 01:43:36.890
were told, you know, when we were younger, suicide

01:43:36.890 --> 01:43:39.409
is selfish. It's cowardly. How could you think

01:43:39.409 --> 01:43:42.460
of your family? And you actually listen to these

01:43:42.460 --> 01:43:44.699
people that were there either right before they

01:43:44.699 --> 01:43:46.439
took their own life or several have come on the

01:43:46.439 --> 01:43:48.079
show. They went through with the attempt and

01:43:48.079 --> 01:43:52.399
they just survived. That there was that absolute

01:43:52.399 --> 01:43:55.560
belief, which in theory makes a lot of people

01:43:55.560 --> 01:43:57.439
that we've lost at that moment, it was courageous

01:43:57.439 --> 01:43:59.920
and selfless in a completely distorted mind.

01:44:00.279 --> 01:44:02.279
But as you said, we've already said that we would

01:44:02.279 --> 01:44:05.340
die for a complete stranger. If you truly believe

01:44:05.340 --> 01:44:09.279
that your child, your spouse. will be better

01:44:09.279 --> 01:44:11.380
off then you're like all right well then i'll

01:44:11.380 --> 01:44:13.779
make the sacrifice so it's terrifying because

01:44:13.779 --> 01:44:16.119
to a healthy mind obviously that makes no sense

01:44:16.119 --> 01:44:19.399
but the number of people that i hear that is

01:44:19.399 --> 01:44:22.199
their absolute reality they believe it to the

01:44:22.199 --> 01:44:25.239
core that this is the solution i am the problem

01:44:25.239 --> 01:44:28.340
if i'm gone everyone else is happier did it get

01:44:28.340 --> 01:44:32.579
to that point in your mind i think to an extent

01:44:32.579 --> 01:44:36.260
i don't know Like I said, I try to be very careful

01:44:36.260 --> 01:44:39.140
because I don't ever want to sort of trauma compete.

01:44:40.199 --> 01:44:43.500
And I just have so much respect for anyone who's

01:44:43.500 --> 01:44:46.819
been there. And, you know, my heart goes out

01:44:46.819 --> 01:44:49.140
to those that did it. I just it breaks for them.

01:44:50.119 --> 01:44:55.260
And anyone who who got close or, you know. I

01:44:55.260 --> 01:44:57.520
don't I don't know, you know, as far as a comparison,

01:44:57.619 --> 01:45:01.500
but I know that with me, I hated who I. I felt

01:45:01.500 --> 01:45:03.039
that I was, when I looked in the mirror, I didn't

01:45:03.039 --> 01:45:05.439
like that person. I despise that person. And

01:45:05.439 --> 01:45:07.359
I think it, I also felt like I didn't deserve

01:45:07.359 --> 01:45:10.039
anything good. That was another big thing. Like,

01:45:10.039 --> 01:45:12.060
like, I just felt like I was just such this bad

01:45:12.060 --> 01:45:15.520
person. The good things actually kind of hurt

01:45:15.520 --> 01:45:16.979
a little bit. You know what I mean? It was like,

01:45:17.020 --> 01:45:19.020
I just felt like I didn't deserve anything good

01:45:19.020 --> 01:45:22.279
and I didn't deserve to feel joy. I didn't deserve.

01:45:22.380 --> 01:45:25.100
And so like, I was wanting to run from things

01:45:25.100 --> 01:45:28.060
that were good for me, you know, because, um,

01:45:28.600 --> 01:45:31.100
Like, nah, you're a total jerk, dude. Like you're

01:45:31.100 --> 01:45:33.920
an ass. And you know, you don't deserve that.

01:45:34.739 --> 01:45:37.220
And then also, yes, I think mixed in with like

01:45:37.220 --> 01:45:39.239
wanting to be at the initial of the career when

01:45:39.239 --> 01:45:41.760
you're a young person, this helper, this noble

01:45:41.760 --> 01:45:45.739
cause chasing good thing. And then over here

01:45:45.739 --> 01:45:48.560
with all this negativity and dark feeling like,

01:45:48.699 --> 01:45:51.840
wow, I've completely corrupted my purpose. I'm

01:45:51.840 --> 01:45:54.140
a bad person. And, and yeah, you know what I

01:45:54.140 --> 01:45:55.840
mean? Like, and if I continue, all I'm going

01:45:55.840 --> 01:45:58.819
to do is continue to hurt those I love. You know,

01:45:58.840 --> 01:46:01.739
if I stick around, all I'm going to do is continually

01:46:01.739 --> 01:46:06.180
subject my wife, my friends, my family, people

01:46:06.180 --> 01:46:08.939
I love. I'm just going to keep destroying them

01:46:08.939 --> 01:46:11.319
and hurting them. And you're like, how do I not

01:46:11.319 --> 01:46:13.420
do that? Oh, well, I'm pretty worthless and I

01:46:13.420 --> 01:46:15.039
don't think I'm capable of getting it right.

01:46:15.800 --> 01:46:18.260
So, you know, that's where that becomes like

01:46:18.260 --> 01:46:23.300
a if I'm not here, then I can't hurt them. What

01:46:23.300 --> 01:46:27.079
about. Sleep deprivation. This is another, what

01:46:27.079 --> 01:46:28.859
I call the herd of elephants in the room. The

01:46:28.859 --> 01:46:31.720
way that we worked, and I was at Orange County

01:46:31.720 --> 01:46:34.579
up until 2013. And back then, the mandatories

01:46:34.579 --> 01:46:37.319
were just insane. And I don't believe it's got

01:46:37.319 --> 01:46:40.779
any better from what I understand. 56 -hour work

01:46:40.779 --> 01:46:43.020
week, no Kelly days as it is. That's the base.

01:46:43.180 --> 01:46:45.260
What was the prevalence of extra shifts that

01:46:45.260 --> 01:46:47.680
you were working throughout that, through most

01:46:47.680 --> 01:46:51.310
of your career, the second half especially? I

01:46:51.310 --> 01:46:53.829
mean, when I was on 54 truck and down there on

01:46:53.829 --> 01:46:57.949
I -Drive and, you know, you're going to get mandatory

01:46:57.949 --> 01:46:59.710
a little bit more. You're going to have to, you

01:46:59.710 --> 01:47:01.529
know, it's funny when people say like, oh, well,

01:47:01.590 --> 01:47:03.130
you pick that shift up. No, you only did that

01:47:03.130 --> 01:47:04.930
to try to avoid, you know, not working on an

01:47:04.930 --> 01:47:06.550
important event to your family. As you well know,

01:47:06.630 --> 01:47:08.970
that's like a voluntary and mandatory. And then

01:47:08.970 --> 01:47:10.470
the most frustrating thing ever, which I'm sure

01:47:10.470 --> 01:47:11.569
you're aware of, is you end up getting mandatory

01:47:11.569 --> 01:47:17.369
anyway. And you're like, but the sleep deprivation,

01:47:17.449 --> 01:47:19.909
especially like when I, before I ended up leaving

01:47:19.909 --> 01:47:22.850
54, The truck was first out, which was like the

01:47:22.850 --> 01:47:24.630
only place in America I'm aware of that a ladder

01:47:24.630 --> 01:47:28.649
truck ran all the Band -Aid calls. And, you know,

01:47:28.750 --> 01:47:33.149
6601, the psych unit across the street, and,

01:47:33.229 --> 01:47:36.850
you know, such a Florida behavioral. And just,

01:47:36.970 --> 01:47:39.170
you know, I drive. It's busy, right? You know,

01:47:39.210 --> 01:47:41.789
and you didn't get the respect of being like

01:47:41.789 --> 01:47:45.670
a 50 or a 51 or a 42 or a 30. But meanwhile,

01:47:45.810 --> 01:47:48.689
you were like right here on the calls and sometimes

01:47:48.689 --> 01:47:51.720
here. Um, you just weren't running as much fire

01:47:51.720 --> 01:47:54.439
and whatnot. So that was kind of annoying, but,

01:47:54.439 --> 01:47:58.239
uh, I mean, yeah, it was, it was wearing on me,

01:47:58.279 --> 01:48:00.100
I think. And, you know, once again, you kind

01:48:00.100 --> 01:48:02.060
of have the mentality back then I look back as

01:48:02.060 --> 01:48:05.500
like, you're a fireman, big deal. Like you don't

01:48:05.500 --> 01:48:07.640
whine about that. That's like, you know, uh,

01:48:07.920 --> 01:48:09.659
a lifeguard whining about having to get in the

01:48:09.659 --> 01:48:11.739
pool. You know what I mean? Like, it's like,

01:48:11.800 --> 01:48:13.659
you know, what kind of wimp would you be to be

01:48:13.659 --> 01:48:15.880
like, Oh, I'm not sleeping. You know, like you

01:48:15.880 --> 01:48:17.619
just kind of, you wore it as a badge of courage,

01:48:17.720 --> 01:48:20.020
you know, like, you know, like. It was it was

01:48:20.020 --> 01:48:21.920
you looking back, that's not healthy. But at

01:48:21.920 --> 01:48:23.800
the time, you're like, yeah, I got like two hours

01:48:23.800 --> 01:48:26.399
of sleep last night, you know, sort of not quite,

01:48:26.520 --> 01:48:28.819
you know, and then you'd work in overtime and,

01:48:28.859 --> 01:48:31.420
you know, it just it just compounded. So I don't

01:48:31.420 --> 01:48:33.359
know that I ever really thought about it, but

01:48:33.359 --> 01:48:34.979
I'm sure that was happening. Now, the last to

01:48:34.979 --> 01:48:38.140
be fair, before someone ever calls me out on

01:48:38.140 --> 01:48:41.579
this later, my last year and a half, two years,

01:48:41.699 --> 01:48:44.979
I think maybe two and change ish. My memory does

01:48:44.979 --> 01:48:47.760
get a little foggy on some of that. I did leave

01:48:47.760 --> 01:48:51.720
the truck. I transferred out east, living in

01:48:51.720 --> 01:48:53.979
Merritt Island, and it was just time to get out.

01:48:54.159 --> 01:48:57.699
Like I said, I felt that I wasn't being the best

01:48:57.699 --> 01:49:00.199
fit for that team. And there was hungrier, newer

01:49:00.199 --> 01:49:03.659
people that just could serve those guys better.

01:49:03.800 --> 01:49:06.399
I mean, you talk about, as you know, Rommel Palma

01:49:06.399 --> 01:49:08.500
and Vladimir and Ben Sechrist. You know, when

01:49:08.500 --> 01:49:10.380
you got a crew like that, you know what I mean?

01:49:10.399 --> 01:49:12.060
Like, I was so blessed to work with them for

01:49:12.060 --> 01:49:15.609
so many years. You know, when you start realizing

01:49:15.609 --> 01:49:18.369
that, you know, you're not as hungry as you should

01:49:18.369 --> 01:49:21.409
be. Anyway, and there was some other factors

01:49:21.409 --> 01:49:23.930
that I don't necessarily really want to go into

01:49:23.930 --> 01:49:27.529
in regards to 54 that it made it time to look

01:49:27.529 --> 01:49:30.689
elsewhere. And I ended up at 85 on the east side.

01:49:30.750 --> 01:49:34.829
And I went from like, I don't know, 14 on a slow

01:49:34.829 --> 01:49:40.210
day, 12, 14 to 17, 18 calls a shift to like zero

01:49:40.210 --> 01:49:45.579
to three, you know. 85 was definitely not anywhere

01:49:45.579 --> 01:49:48.600
near the call volume. And I remember thinking

01:49:48.600 --> 01:49:50.500
like, Oh, this is going to be perfect. You know,

01:49:50.520 --> 01:49:52.460
and everything James talks about, I'll be, this

01:49:52.460 --> 01:49:54.239
is gonna be so healthy. You know, I'm going to

01:49:54.239 --> 01:49:55.979
be sleeping. I'm going to be sleeping at work.

01:49:56.140 --> 01:49:58.079
You know what I mean? Like, this is like, I'm

01:49:58.079 --> 01:50:00.420
making a good move for me towards the end of

01:50:00.420 --> 01:50:03.399
my career. I'm getting closer to home and I'm

01:50:03.399 --> 01:50:05.060
not going to have all the sleep interruption,

01:50:05.079 --> 01:50:09.470
but I think I started realizing I'm like, Actually,

01:50:09.569 --> 01:50:11.890
to be fair, I didn't realize how crappy I was

01:50:11.890 --> 01:50:13.270
still sleeping there knowing the tones could

01:50:13.270 --> 01:50:16.489
drop, right? And I will say this, a solid year

01:50:16.489 --> 01:50:19.449
and change went by after retirement. My wife

01:50:19.449 --> 01:50:22.390
and I had flown out to Washington State to spend

01:50:22.390 --> 01:50:26.189
Christmas with her sister. And we were flying

01:50:26.189 --> 01:50:28.050
back and we were staying at the hotel at the

01:50:28.050 --> 01:50:30.109
airport because we had like an early morning

01:50:30.109 --> 01:50:31.449
flight, you know, all the way across the country

01:50:31.449 --> 01:50:34.689
in the morning. We're staying at the hotel and

01:50:34.689 --> 01:50:37.390
at like 1 .30 in the morning, the fire alarm

01:50:37.390 --> 01:50:40.359
goes off. you know, and it's cold outside. It

01:50:40.359 --> 01:50:41.939
was like brutal cold. There was like ice on the

01:50:41.939 --> 01:50:44.359
sidewalks and whatnot. And, you know, it jarred

01:50:44.359 --> 01:50:46.720
me out of my sleep. I'm like, oh crap. And she's

01:50:46.720 --> 01:50:48.420
like trying to grab a suitcase and a bag. Whoa,

01:50:48.460 --> 01:50:50.180
hold on. And I'm like, I'm looking out the window.

01:50:50.199 --> 01:50:53.060
I'm like, if the fire engine pulls up and this

01:50:53.060 --> 01:50:55.939
thing gets silenced in the first like 20 seconds,

01:50:56.079 --> 01:50:58.020
you know, it means that it was either a bag of

01:50:58.020 --> 01:51:00.399
popcorn somewhere or just in a system malfunction.

01:51:00.960 --> 01:51:02.600
They're going to silence this if there's anything

01:51:02.600 --> 01:51:04.899
to it. And then they're going to leave. I'm like,

01:51:04.939 --> 01:51:06.939
we don't need to go outside until like they don't

01:51:06.939 --> 01:51:08.460
silence it. Or they started getting on the PA

01:51:08.460 --> 01:51:10.720
and telling which floors need to evacuate. I'm

01:51:10.720 --> 01:51:13.100
like, I'm not going outside yet. And so like,

01:51:13.180 --> 01:51:15.279
you know, 15, 20 seconds later, I don't know.

01:51:15.340 --> 01:51:17.939
They silence it. 10 minutes later, they get in

01:51:17.939 --> 01:51:19.119
the rig and leave. I'm like, we're going back

01:51:19.119 --> 01:51:21.479
to bed. You know, it was a, it was a malfunction

01:51:21.479 --> 01:51:27.520
or a popcorn call. And the next day I was like

01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:33.510
mad and irritable and cranky. And just being

01:51:33.510 --> 01:51:36.750
a jerk. Here I was, I'd been retired a year and

01:51:36.750 --> 01:51:39.229
change, and I never really felt some big shift

01:51:39.229 --> 01:51:42.989
towards being a nicer person. And that next day,

01:51:43.029 --> 01:51:46.250
here I am being snippy and short and just being

01:51:46.250 --> 01:51:47.710
frustrated with things you shouldn't be frustrated

01:51:47.710 --> 01:51:50.149
with. Almost like looking at you like, why are

01:51:50.149 --> 01:51:51.210
you wearing those headphones? Those are dumb.

01:51:51.430 --> 01:51:53.569
You know what I mean? Just don't see where it's

01:51:53.569 --> 01:51:56.229
not anything at all. And I'm just annoyed at

01:51:56.229 --> 01:51:58.630
everything. And I'm just being this total jerk.

01:51:59.609 --> 01:52:03.060
And it hit me. I'm like, holy cow. I just had

01:52:03.060 --> 01:52:06.739
one sleep interruption, just one. And I didn't

01:52:06.739 --> 01:52:08.640
realize how healthy I had been without that.

01:52:09.060 --> 01:52:11.159
And that one night with that fire alarm in a

01:52:11.159 --> 01:52:13.539
hotel, the next day just being completely out

01:52:13.539 --> 01:52:15.819
of sorts and being a jerk again, I'm like, huh,

01:52:16.000 --> 01:52:20.779
interesting, you know? Well, this is, I mean,

01:52:20.819 --> 01:52:23.220
you alluded to Station 85, which I went there

01:52:23.220 --> 01:52:25.470
a couple of times. I think it was. I don't know

01:52:25.470 --> 01:52:27.529
if it was OT or just got floated out. That's

01:52:27.529 --> 01:52:29.310
the funny thing with the county. There were days

01:52:29.310 --> 01:52:31.630
where I spent three hours. I would drive. They

01:52:31.630 --> 01:52:33.470
say, you go to 20. I drive all the way to the

01:52:33.470 --> 01:52:35.229
north end. They go, actually, you go into 86.

01:52:35.909 --> 01:52:38.250
And you go all the way to the east end. Like

01:52:38.250 --> 01:52:40.229
half a tank of gas later, you finally get to

01:52:40.229 --> 01:52:42.510
the place where you're supposed to be. But this

01:52:42.510 --> 01:52:46.550
is what I tell people. You are not at home. You

01:52:46.550 --> 01:52:49.529
are in a place where at any time, the tones can

01:52:49.529 --> 01:52:52.270
go off. And tragically, as we sit here recording

01:52:52.270 --> 01:52:56.189
today, There is a sleepy rural community in British

01:52:56.189 --> 01:52:58.989
Columbia, Canada, that just had a mass shooting

01:52:58.989 --> 01:53:02.289
one of their schools. So you never know, you

01:53:02.289 --> 01:53:05.569
know, in your, you know, the sleepier stations

01:53:05.569 --> 01:53:07.649
when you're going to get that derailment, that

01:53:07.649 --> 01:53:10.090
shooting, that plane that comes down. I mean,

01:53:10.090 --> 01:53:12.949
you just don't know. So, yes, don't get me wrong.

01:53:13.130 --> 01:53:17.590
A night without waking up is better sleep. But

01:53:17.590 --> 01:53:20.569
you do not get good sleep in a fire station unless

01:53:20.569 --> 01:53:23.520
you work in a military. establishment where they

01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:25.600
shut everything down and you know you will not

01:53:25.600 --> 01:53:28.779
get a call until 7 a .m. when they start flying

01:53:28.779 --> 01:53:33.000
again. So this is a big misnomer as well. People

01:53:33.000 --> 01:53:34.979
say, oh, what about the quiet stations? They

01:53:34.979 --> 01:53:37.439
barely run anyway. It doesn't matter. Firstly,

01:53:37.680 --> 01:53:39.920
from a psychology point of view, you are not

01:53:39.920 --> 01:53:42.260
getting that deep restorative sleep that affects

01:53:42.260 --> 01:53:44.779
everything from mental health to obesity to testosterone

01:53:44.779 --> 01:53:50.840
depletion to the ability to get cancer. But also,

01:53:50.920 --> 01:53:53.300
you're away from your family. It doesn't matter

01:53:53.300 --> 01:53:56.680
if you're running 20 calls or one call. You are

01:53:56.680 --> 01:53:58.760
still being told you can't go home. You need

01:53:58.760 --> 01:54:01.140
to be in this fire station away from your loved

01:54:01.140 --> 01:54:05.279
ones. So there's a lot of value to that conversation.

01:54:05.840 --> 01:54:08.079
Not every security guard is running around chasing

01:54:08.079 --> 01:54:10.399
burglars all day. You have no problem with him

01:54:10.399 --> 01:54:13.060
sitting behind the desk reading a book. But why

01:54:13.060 --> 01:54:15.420
is it that we expect our firefighters to be running

01:54:15.420 --> 01:54:17.979
24 -7? Otherwise, they don't need the recovery.

01:54:18.220 --> 01:54:21.380
It's bullshit. And it's funny, like when I started

01:54:21.380 --> 01:54:23.159
in the fire service, I didn't join to be lazy.

01:54:23.159 --> 01:54:25.579
I wanted to be a good firefighter, but it seemed

01:54:25.579 --> 01:54:27.439
to me there was a, I don't know when the shift

01:54:27.439 --> 01:54:28.920
happened, but when I first started, there was

01:54:28.920 --> 01:54:32.640
like a, you know, Monday through Saturday, almost

01:54:32.640 --> 01:54:34.619
maybe at least Monday through Friday, the days

01:54:34.619 --> 01:54:36.640
are pretty structured. You know, it's boom, boom,

01:54:36.659 --> 01:54:39.100
boom. You know, if you go to training and all

01:54:39.100 --> 01:54:40.960
this, right. But all in all, when you came to

01:54:40.960 --> 01:54:43.319
work on like a Saturday or a Sunday, yes, you

01:54:43.319 --> 01:54:45.060
had to do the white glove or the field day or

01:54:45.060 --> 01:54:46.399
whatever people call it on cleaning the station

01:54:46.399 --> 01:54:49.319
on Saturdays in Orange County. And but all in

01:54:49.319 --> 01:54:51.119
all, the weekends to an extent where after you

01:54:51.119 --> 01:54:53.420
were done with your chores, it was a little bit

01:54:53.420 --> 01:54:55.640
more of a relaxed vibe other than calls. You

01:54:55.640 --> 01:54:57.640
know, like it was a take it out of gear to an

01:54:57.640 --> 01:54:59.880
extent, breathe a little bit. There was a little

01:54:59.880 --> 01:55:02.699
bit more of that like family mentality of like

01:55:02.699 --> 01:55:04.600
today's, you know, like the station day to, you

01:55:04.600 --> 01:55:07.960
know. And as as the career went, there was never

01:55:07.960 --> 01:55:09.800
a shift. You'd go to work unless it was like

01:55:09.800 --> 01:55:12.000
Christmas Day, almost that the county ever gave

01:55:12.000 --> 01:55:14.960
you the day off. You know, Saturdays didn't matter.

01:55:15.279 --> 01:55:17.340
Sundays, you're going to training. You know what

01:55:17.340 --> 01:55:19.960
I mean? It was just like nonstop all day long.

01:55:20.060 --> 01:55:21.600
And what would kill me sometimes at what they

01:55:21.600 --> 01:55:24.140
would do to guys in the truck and squad, you

01:55:24.140 --> 01:55:25.479
know, especially a squad, I'll give them some

01:55:25.479 --> 01:55:27.500
love now that I don't work slide by side with

01:55:27.500 --> 01:55:30.039
them. And I don't have to is, I mean, like you

01:55:30.039 --> 01:55:33.979
go to training for a six, eight hour drill where

01:55:33.979 --> 01:55:36.500
you're crawling through concrete, cutting rebar,

01:55:36.600 --> 01:55:38.800
running torches. It's a drill, but you're right.

01:55:38.939 --> 01:55:41.119
Like you're being judged on your decision -making.

01:55:41.220 --> 01:55:43.539
You're being judged on your performance. Your,

01:55:43.539 --> 01:55:45.659
your, your, your reputation is very much on the

01:55:45.659 --> 01:55:47.720
line. So you can't just be like, eh, it's a drill.

01:55:47.779 --> 01:55:50.140
Not that any of the guys would anyway. But, you

01:55:50.140 --> 01:55:52.140
know, you better bring your egg in because they're

01:55:52.140 --> 01:55:53.899
going to throw you a very challenging drill.

01:55:54.380 --> 01:55:57.399
Now solve it, right? And so you've got to be

01:55:57.399 --> 01:55:59.739
mentally sharp. You've got to just physically

01:55:59.739 --> 01:56:02.659
sharp and do this drill for six, eight hours

01:56:02.659 --> 01:56:04.800
and just be exhausted like you've run a collapse

01:56:04.800 --> 01:56:08.199
call in a major city. And then go back to the

01:56:08.199 --> 01:56:10.720
station, clean up, halfway through dinner, run

01:56:10.720 --> 01:56:13.159
a medical call, and then run calls all night

01:56:13.159 --> 01:56:16.060
and pretend that you're supposed to be. sure

01:56:16.060 --> 01:56:19.239
like you're just there's a point to where you

01:56:19.239 --> 01:56:24.039
just you're just going through the motions i

01:56:24.039 --> 01:56:27.380
want i'm going to write a piece very soon on

01:56:27.380 --> 01:56:30.000
performance in the fire service and the reason

01:56:30.000 --> 01:56:34.100
i'm doing this is with go back 10 years ago when

01:56:34.100 --> 01:56:36.140
we first started talking about this and i would

01:56:36.140 --> 01:56:39.039
argue um chief dangerfield when he took his own

01:56:39.039 --> 01:56:41.439
life and put his suicide note on facebook literally

01:56:41.439 --> 01:56:44.460
about 10 years ago now was really what seemed

01:56:44.460 --> 01:56:46.359
to start this whole conversation on the mental

01:56:46.359 --> 01:56:49.340
health side. But I don't feel like we've really

01:56:49.340 --> 01:56:51.819
progressed past where we need to smash the stigma,

01:56:51.880 --> 01:56:54.300
which is such a buzzword. People are starting

01:56:54.300 --> 01:56:56.340
to say, okay, well, it's not just PTSD. You've

01:56:56.340 --> 01:56:58.000
got moral injury. And I think that's definitely

01:56:58.000 --> 01:57:01.819
a great step forward. But if you frame it completely

01:57:01.819 --> 01:57:03.760
differently and you say, well, how do we forge

01:57:03.760 --> 01:57:08.159
performance in our firefighters now? you look

01:57:08.159 --> 01:57:10.239
at the work week and go, well, that's not the

01:57:10.239 --> 01:57:13.760
fucking way for a start. If you look at tier

01:57:13.760 --> 01:57:15.560
one operators and all these, well, not even tier

01:57:15.560 --> 01:57:17.859
one, like special operators and all these high

01:57:17.859 --> 01:57:20.199
performers who also have people's lives in their

01:57:20.199 --> 01:57:23.300
hands, their rest and recovery is incredibly

01:57:23.300 --> 01:57:25.359
important. And they have experts that they hire

01:57:25.359 --> 01:57:28.319
to optimize their rest and recovery. When it

01:57:28.319 --> 01:57:32.029
comes to the mental state. Like you said, you've

01:57:32.029 --> 01:57:35.710
got to collapse. There's a surfside type incident

01:57:35.710 --> 01:57:37.989
and there's a child still in some void space

01:57:37.989 --> 01:57:41.130
in there. And you have to perform at the highest

01:57:41.130 --> 01:57:44.069
level with the cribbing and getting to this child

01:57:44.069 --> 01:57:47.770
and the safety and managing the air and all these

01:57:47.770 --> 01:57:50.449
different things. How am I going to have this

01:57:50.449 --> 01:57:53.510
clarity of mind? Well, I need good sleep. I need

01:57:53.510 --> 01:57:56.310
to think about meditation. I need to work on

01:57:56.310 --> 01:57:58.130
anything that's below the surface that's holding

01:57:58.130 --> 01:58:00.859
me back so I can get into that flow state. and

01:58:00.859 --> 01:58:02.880
operate at that highest level? And then can I

01:58:02.880 --> 01:58:05.260
do it at an exhausted level? So are we doing

01:58:05.260 --> 01:58:07.319
drills or I'm testing my fitness and then doing

01:58:07.319 --> 01:58:11.260
finite tasks? Those things would take us down

01:58:11.260 --> 01:58:14.640
the same journey that would improve firefighter

01:58:14.640 --> 01:58:16.899
mental health, that would improve firefighter

01:58:16.899 --> 01:58:20.039
physical health, which in turn then affects longevity

01:58:20.039 --> 01:58:23.800
and wellness as well. But we don't talk about

01:58:23.800 --> 01:58:27.619
that. If you ask how... how we like next to my

01:58:27.619 --> 01:58:30.279
station at reedy creek there was a 30 -story

01:58:30.279 --> 01:58:33.939
high -rise so if we had a fire on the top floor

01:58:33.939 --> 01:58:36.680
the high -rise strip that i put on my skinny

01:58:36.680 --> 01:58:41.060
168 pound body was 100 pounds then you climb

01:58:41.060 --> 01:58:45.039
30 stories now you get to start working you know

01:58:45.039 --> 01:58:48.279
what i mean so we've gone so far from performance

01:58:48.279 --> 01:58:50.180
and when i talk to these special operations special

01:58:50.180 --> 01:58:54.250
forces you know war fighters they're The psychologists

01:58:54.250 --> 01:58:57.130
are trying to get them to operate the highest

01:58:57.130 --> 01:59:00.890
level, this accuracy and optimization under stress.

01:59:01.130 --> 01:59:03.510
Their strength and conditioning coaches are forging

01:59:03.510 --> 01:59:05.329
the highest level of strength, highest level

01:59:05.329 --> 01:59:07.329
of strength endurance. You know what I mean?

01:59:07.369 --> 01:59:09.090
Their nutritionists are trying to get them to

01:59:09.090 --> 01:59:11.350
optimize at the highest level, understand hydration.

01:59:12.189 --> 01:59:17.529
What's the best way for them to be able to fuel

01:59:17.529 --> 01:59:21.130
their body for some of these missions? look at

01:59:21.130 --> 01:59:23.569
those same experts once in a blue moon when they

01:59:23.569 --> 01:59:25.350
bring into a fire department the conversation

01:59:25.350 --> 01:59:28.149
is well you keep dying so let's see if we can

01:59:28.149 --> 01:59:31.149
stop you dying as much that's it and there's

01:59:31.149 --> 01:59:35.689
a fucking grand canyon style chasm between not

01:59:35.689 --> 01:59:39.409
dying and performance and i think yeah to get

01:59:39.409 --> 01:59:42.310
off my soapbox now we have to shift away from

01:59:42.310 --> 01:59:44.750
the doom and gloom oh it's so sad we keep dying

01:59:45.659 --> 01:59:47.899
Look at the performance level and then go, is

01:59:47.899 --> 01:59:50.359
our environment set up for performance? And the

01:59:50.359 --> 01:59:54.420
point being, a 56 -hour work week that then dissuades

01:59:54.420 --> 01:59:56.899
people to even test for us anymore. So now we

01:59:56.899 --> 01:59:58.899
have all this overtime that you're being forced

01:59:58.899 --> 02:00:01.420
to tell your child, I can't go home yet again,

02:00:01.659 --> 02:00:04.600
could not be further from performance. And if

02:00:04.600 --> 02:00:07.340
we reframe the work week, fitness standards,

02:00:07.579 --> 02:00:10.399
all these other areas, you'll not only have a

02:00:10.399 --> 02:00:14.359
fit. you know optimized fire department but you

02:00:14.359 --> 02:00:17.140
watch the cancers the heart disease the suicides

02:00:17.140 --> 02:00:19.800
the addictions they will come tumbling down as

02:00:19.800 --> 02:00:27.840
well wow yep it's a hundred percent i i see that

02:00:27.840 --> 02:00:31.520
and it makes perfect sense but i think and once

02:00:31.520 --> 02:00:35.000
again you know hats off to you for for championing

02:00:35.000 --> 02:00:38.220
that cause because it's going to be, you know,

02:00:38.239 --> 02:00:39.779
I know you're, you're in the fight for the long

02:00:39.779 --> 02:00:41.579
haul, but you know, it's like anything good,

02:00:41.600 --> 02:00:43.460
you know, is, is worth fighting for. And most

02:00:43.460 --> 02:00:46.819
of it doesn't come easy, but yeah, I know you're

02:00:46.819 --> 02:00:48.479
getting a lot of pushback and there's, there's,

02:00:48.479 --> 02:00:50.359
it's going to be a long road on some of that

02:00:50.359 --> 02:00:54.199
with, especially with certain agencies. But yeah,

02:00:54.199 --> 02:00:56.439
that's the answer. Cause you know what I mean?

02:00:56.460 --> 02:01:00.279
It's people don't join. Like I said, in the beginning,

02:01:00.319 --> 02:01:02.460
why do people sign up in the very beginning as

02:01:02.460 --> 02:01:05.550
an 18, 19, 20, 22 year old, whatever. or a little

02:01:05.550 --> 02:01:08.189
later in life, why, whenever, why do they decide,

02:01:08.390 --> 02:01:09.689
you know, and I think it's because they want

02:01:09.689 --> 02:01:11.390
to make a difference. They want to serve something

02:01:11.390 --> 02:01:15.609
greater than themselves, you know, but, and they

02:01:15.609 --> 02:01:17.909
have their hearts in the right place, you know,

02:01:17.909 --> 02:01:20.390
and, but like you said, you mix in everything

02:01:20.390 --> 02:01:24.829
we've talked about and it is just almost amazing

02:01:24.829 --> 02:01:29.489
the more people don't get completely lost, you

02:01:29.489 --> 02:01:33.640
know, and, and, and, you know, I know. the health

02:01:33.640 --> 02:01:35.819
risk you know and i know i mean i'm terrified

02:01:35.819 --> 02:01:38.140
of that i have a an extensive cancer history

02:01:38.140 --> 02:01:41.140
in my family and and you know i think that was

02:01:41.140 --> 02:01:42.939
another thing too my wife and i don't have children

02:01:42.939 --> 02:01:45.380
you know and when i got to 25 i was just like

02:01:45.380 --> 02:01:48.640
every day in the fire service i'm just like what's

02:01:48.640 --> 02:01:50.460
this what's that you know what i mean like and

02:01:50.460 --> 02:01:53.800
and you know you you can start to become a hypochondriac

02:01:53.800 --> 02:01:57.680
but also i'm like man when's it enough you know

02:01:57.680 --> 02:01:59.399
when i got to my 20 when i was approaching the

02:01:59.399 --> 02:02:02.239
25 i'm like you can't spend it when you're dead

02:02:03.310 --> 02:02:09.489
you know and yeah anyway no i i one million percent

02:02:09.489 --> 02:02:12.609
i agree with what you're saying well also i mean

02:02:12.609 --> 02:02:14.250
some of the people that you've talked about so

02:02:14.250 --> 02:02:18.890
jp we lost him shaky we lost him i love jp he

02:02:18.890 --> 02:02:22.369
was one of my man what a guy carl andreano eric

02:02:22.369 --> 02:02:27.829
sienna bonner i mean the list just goes on and

02:02:27.829 --> 02:02:30.050
on and on and this is the point is you know the

02:02:30.050 --> 02:02:32.939
way that we're doing it doesn't work. And we

02:02:32.939 --> 02:02:35.319
know that because we, you know, especially Orange

02:02:35.319 --> 02:02:38.600
County, we have so many, as I say, the graveyards

02:02:38.600 --> 02:02:41.140
are full of statistics. You want data, there's

02:02:41.140 --> 02:02:43.039
your fucking data. There's all these headstones.

02:02:43.460 --> 02:02:46.140
So we have to look at, you know, changing this.

02:02:46.239 --> 02:02:47.939
And I think this is a really important part of

02:02:47.939 --> 02:02:50.579
the conversation. I want to go back to your spiritual

02:02:50.579 --> 02:02:53.039
journey, though, because this is also, you know,

02:02:53.039 --> 02:02:55.000
another big part of this. We talk about, you

02:02:55.000 --> 02:02:58.779
know, the psychological side and the physiological

02:02:58.779 --> 02:03:01.859
side. But the spiritual side is definitely a

02:03:01.859 --> 02:03:03.539
big part. You know, if you don't have a reason

02:03:03.539 --> 02:03:05.500
to be here and you don't believe in that reason,

02:03:05.560 --> 02:03:07.159
then, you know, that's obviously not going to

02:03:07.159 --> 02:03:11.539
be a driving force to stay and to thrive. You

02:03:11.539 --> 02:03:14.159
sit in this room, you know, with your wife, like

02:03:14.159 --> 02:03:16.079
you said, you've talked about now spending time

02:03:16.079 --> 02:03:18.699
in the Bible, kind of walk me through from that

02:03:18.699 --> 02:03:22.020
lowest chasm that you were in, you know, all

02:03:22.020 --> 02:03:24.180
the different areas that you've pulled from that

02:03:24.180 --> 02:03:26.020
have helped you start healing and processing

02:03:26.020 --> 02:03:31.680
the trauma that you went through. Well, and I'm

02:03:31.680 --> 02:03:33.920
still obviously healing. There's a lot of times

02:03:33.920 --> 02:03:36.000
where I just get like you start thinking about

02:03:36.000 --> 02:03:39.600
your past and it's very easy almost to go back

02:03:39.600 --> 02:03:42.720
there. You're like, man, I wasn't being a good

02:03:42.720 --> 02:03:44.779
person or, you know, I made a lot of mistakes

02:03:44.779 --> 02:03:47.180
and a lot of bad choices. And you can instantly

02:03:47.180 --> 02:03:49.079
start feeling like, oh, you know, like, man,

02:03:49.220 --> 02:03:53.100
you know, but I see that as and I don't judge

02:03:53.100 --> 02:03:54.500
anyone who sees it different. But I see that

02:03:54.500 --> 02:03:58.239
as the enemy itself, like as as. The dark Satan

02:03:58.239 --> 02:03:59.979
being like, hey, by the way, do you remember

02:03:59.979 --> 02:04:02.399
your screw up? You know, how could you ever expect

02:04:02.399 --> 02:04:04.779
to like do anything good or help others or do

02:04:04.779 --> 02:04:06.880
do anything, especially for God with who you

02:04:06.880 --> 02:04:08.579
are and what you've done? You know, it comes

02:04:08.579 --> 02:04:10.460
to remind me of my past and comes to say like

02:04:10.460 --> 02:04:13.159
this, that and the other. But as I've spent more

02:04:13.159 --> 02:04:16.819
time in meditation and in the word and just getting

02:04:16.819 --> 02:04:19.199
to me, it's just honestly, in high school, I

02:04:19.199 --> 02:04:20.819
went to a small Christian high school till I

02:04:20.819 --> 02:04:23.579
was small. They taught me steps, you know, because

02:04:23.579 --> 02:04:25.899
like as a young person or as any person that's

02:04:25.899 --> 02:04:27.359
never been taught, it's like just like in our

02:04:27.359 --> 02:04:29.779
career, we're supposed to just know things. And

02:04:29.779 --> 02:04:31.840
you're like, OK, so when was I taught that, you

02:04:31.840 --> 02:04:36.880
know? But they taught us like, OK, you hear like

02:04:36.880 --> 02:04:40.560
have a relationship with God. Great. Right. And

02:04:40.560 --> 02:04:41.760
that's a lot of times where that ends. And you're

02:04:41.760 --> 02:04:44.939
like, oh, he's up there and I'm here. And I don't

02:04:44.939 --> 02:04:47.659
really know how this works, you know. But they

02:04:47.659 --> 02:04:49.760
told us they're like, listen, start your day.

02:04:50.329 --> 02:04:52.310
with, with feeling the happy face of God, the

02:04:52.310 --> 02:04:54.189
loving, happy face, like you feel towards your

02:04:54.189 --> 02:04:57.729
child as a father, like you love that, that child,

02:04:57.829 --> 02:05:00.189
like you want nothing but good and blessings

02:05:00.189 --> 02:05:03.109
and good things for that child. Right. And I

02:05:03.109 --> 02:05:04.329
don't have a child and I'm not saying it's the

02:05:04.329 --> 02:05:06.050
same thing. I have a dog, but I love that dog.

02:05:06.130 --> 02:05:07.989
And I love her and I put honor. And I'm like,

02:05:08.029 --> 02:05:10.630
I want nothing but her to feel this love, like

02:05:10.630 --> 02:05:13.829
feel loved and like safe. Right. And so they're

02:05:13.829 --> 02:05:15.770
like, it's no different with your heavenly father.

02:05:15.829 --> 02:05:18.819
Like he created you. You know, and he wants you

02:05:18.819 --> 02:05:20.939
to feel that love. Instead of this judgment and

02:05:20.939 --> 02:05:22.760
everything we were raised with, you know, feel

02:05:22.760 --> 02:05:25.000
this like, you know, James, I'm proud of you.

02:05:25.359 --> 02:05:27.060
You know what I mean? Like, you're a good man,

02:05:27.180 --> 02:05:30.779
you know, and I love you. And then, you know,

02:05:30.779 --> 02:05:32.720
from there, kind of like a quiet place, you know,

02:05:32.720 --> 02:05:37.619
spend some time meditating, like, okay, almost

02:05:37.619 --> 02:05:41.119
talking to in a relationship way, like, what

02:05:41.119 --> 02:05:44.560
do I need to focus on? Like, where have I messed

02:05:44.560 --> 02:05:46.520
up lately where I might not even realize it?

02:05:46.850 --> 02:05:48.689
Was I super rude and mean and nasty to somebody

02:05:48.689 --> 02:05:50.470
yesterday and I just didn't even pay attention?

02:05:51.189 --> 02:05:52.649
And do I need to go back to them and be like,

02:05:52.689 --> 02:05:54.449
hey, James, you know, yesterday when I called

02:05:54.449 --> 02:05:56.789
you a dumb slob, you know what I mean? Like,

02:05:56.850 --> 02:05:58.909
I was just being a jerk. You know what I mean?

02:05:58.909 --> 02:06:00.569
Like, I don't even know why I said that. Like,

02:06:00.890 --> 02:06:02.670
I was completely out of line. Please, for me,

02:06:02.750 --> 02:06:05.010
I apologize, right? That might mean a lot to

02:06:05.010 --> 02:06:06.890
you. You might have taken that a little bit too

02:06:06.890 --> 02:06:09.189
hard. Like, wow, you know, Rob felt that way

02:06:09.189 --> 02:06:11.029
about me. You know, and now I've come back to

02:06:11.029 --> 02:06:12.449
you and I've been like, James, I don't feel that

02:06:12.449 --> 02:06:14.090
way about you at all. You know what I mean? Like,

02:06:14.170 --> 02:06:16.270
I was just. completely being a jerk you know

02:06:16.270 --> 02:06:18.510
and i apologize i you know like i was wrong with

02:06:18.510 --> 02:06:20.529
me and i don't want you to forgive me you know

02:06:20.529 --> 02:06:23.529
and so like now you're in a better place i'm

02:06:23.529 --> 02:06:25.289
in a better place i don't have this like guilt

02:06:25.289 --> 02:06:27.949
of like man i'm i'm just a jerk to people you

02:06:27.949 --> 02:06:32.149
know and so like spend that quiet time to reflect

02:06:32.149 --> 02:06:37.029
on like for me it's god show me where i need

02:06:37.029 --> 02:06:39.050
to grow and change what have i you know what

02:06:39.050 --> 02:06:41.510
i mean like and humbly i come before you like

02:06:41.510 --> 02:06:44.600
i want to know my, my errors, you know, and in

02:06:44.600 --> 02:06:47.380
a loving way, he's sharing that. And then it's,

02:06:47.380 --> 02:06:49.539
it's quickly from that to like a note meditation.

02:06:49.720 --> 02:06:51.319
And these things take, this whole thing is like

02:06:51.319 --> 02:06:53.640
five, 10 minutes. It isn't like two hours, you

02:06:53.640 --> 02:06:56.779
know, but a note meditation, my wife had a Bible

02:06:56.779 --> 02:06:58.659
that's read, read the Bible from cover to cover

02:06:58.659 --> 02:07:00.739
in a year. Well, I told you when I went to college,

02:07:00.840 --> 02:07:04.039
I alluded to, I went to Liberty and it was a

02:07:04.039 --> 02:07:06.039
very Baptist, very strict school at the time.

02:07:06.060 --> 02:07:09.640
It's like not near this anymore, but you had,

02:07:09.699 --> 02:07:11.680
they didn't offer minors. And I went there two

02:07:11.680 --> 02:07:14.159
years. But you had a minor in religious studies

02:07:14.159 --> 02:07:17.199
with any major you had. So I've always felt like,

02:07:17.199 --> 02:07:19.420
yeah, I technically sort of have a minor in Bible.

02:07:19.520 --> 02:07:23.979
I know it. But there's so much that I read here,

02:07:24.260 --> 02:07:27.020
never applied it, never thought about it, never

02:07:27.020 --> 02:07:30.260
meditated on it. Right. And so this Bible she

02:07:30.260 --> 02:07:32.640
has is just like it's a couple of chapters a

02:07:32.640 --> 02:07:35.460
day. And it's kind of hard right now because

02:07:35.460 --> 02:07:37.439
it's in some of the really like Old Testament

02:07:37.439 --> 02:07:39.180
stuff that you're like, oh, my gosh, like it's

02:07:39.180 --> 02:07:41.479
just an account of everything. And you're like,

02:07:41.539 --> 02:07:43.319
OK, this is this is like reading a spreadsheet.

02:07:43.939 --> 02:07:48.199
But I still pray for wisdom in that. And a lot

02:07:48.199 --> 02:07:49.720
of that just through even the beginning, I'm

02:07:49.720 --> 02:07:53.619
like, wow, God used very flawed people. You know,

02:07:53.619 --> 02:07:57.199
God used people that made mistakes and they came

02:07:57.199 --> 02:07:58.939
back and they're like, yeah, I screwed up. And

02:07:58.939 --> 02:08:00.899
he's like, yeah, I know. I already knew you would

02:08:00.899 --> 02:08:03.930
beforehand. Love you anyway. It's cool. Now let's

02:08:03.930 --> 02:08:06.210
talk about the future. Like, you know, your past

02:08:06.210 --> 02:08:07.970
is that I've separated your sin far from east

02:08:07.970 --> 02:08:11.609
from west. And I have to remind my enemy, you

02:08:11.609 --> 02:08:13.489
know, that all the time because he comes back.

02:08:13.569 --> 02:08:15.289
But remember this and remember that, Rob, and

02:08:15.289 --> 02:08:16.829
you did this and you said that. It's like, no,

02:08:16.869 --> 02:08:20.010
no, no. God's forgiven me of that. And now I

02:08:20.010 --> 02:08:21.689
don't have to dwell on the past and on mistakes

02:08:21.689 --> 02:08:22.989
of the past because I can't do anything about

02:08:22.989 --> 02:08:25.390
them anyway. All I can do is focus on the future.

02:08:25.750 --> 02:08:27.590
And God's there saying, like, I've got this future

02:08:27.590 --> 02:08:29.189
for you. I've got this plan. You know what I

02:08:29.189 --> 02:08:31.470
mean? And who knows what great, cool things we

02:08:31.470 --> 02:08:33.760
could go do, you know? And how many people we

02:08:33.760 --> 02:08:36.079
could help. Let's do it. Let's get to work. You

02:08:36.079 --> 02:08:38.300
know, and so, you know, so it's like this happy

02:08:38.300 --> 02:08:40.659
face, a little bit of meditation, reading, you

02:08:40.659 --> 02:08:42.560
know, no meditation, reading some of the Bible.

02:08:42.899 --> 02:08:44.359
And then it's just wrapping it up with prayer.

02:08:44.500 --> 02:08:46.859
And that's just where I try to take time. You

02:08:46.859 --> 02:08:48.800
usually feel better when you do things for other

02:08:48.800 --> 02:08:51.119
people, right? When you get out of yourself and

02:08:51.119 --> 02:08:53.720
you look to help others. And so prayer is when

02:08:53.720 --> 02:08:55.899
I really try to pray for like everyone I know,

02:08:56.100 --> 02:08:59.079
whether they want me to or not, that's been shared

02:08:59.079 --> 02:09:03.109
on my heart. for something you know that i feel

02:09:03.109 --> 02:09:05.149
or that they've shared with me that they're going

02:09:05.149 --> 02:09:07.350
through something that you know and that's time

02:09:07.350 --> 02:09:09.770
where i i really just try to go to god for other

02:09:09.770 --> 02:09:12.649
people you know and when my wife and i wrap it

02:09:12.649 --> 02:09:16.010
up with she has one that she's learned about

02:09:16.010 --> 02:09:18.390
the archangels of protection and i don't know

02:09:18.390 --> 02:09:19.810
them as well as her but there's like michael

02:09:19.810 --> 02:09:22.149
on your right side you can visualize throughout

02:09:22.149 --> 02:09:25.550
the day of like you know to protect you and and

02:09:25.550 --> 02:09:28.489
strengthen you and there's you know and and it

02:09:28.489 --> 02:09:31.300
just It might sound hokey, you know, cause it

02:09:31.300 --> 02:09:33.340
took a lot. Cause for a big part of my life,

02:09:33.340 --> 02:09:34.739
I would have rolled my eyes at it, even though

02:09:34.739 --> 02:09:38.140
I knew a lot about it. But you see, I feel that

02:09:38.140 --> 02:09:42.760
protection, that sense of like, I can face this

02:09:42.760 --> 02:09:45.420
day. And when someone's a jerk to me, I don't

02:09:45.420 --> 02:09:47.239
have to instantly throw my middle finger up and

02:09:47.239 --> 02:09:49.039
be like, you know, blow up and get like, Oh yeah.

02:09:49.439 --> 02:09:52.100
I can just be like, that's their day. They might,

02:09:52.119 --> 02:09:53.720
they might not be a jerk. It might just be having

02:09:53.720 --> 02:09:55.850
their worst day ever. You know, and instead of

02:09:55.850 --> 02:09:57.609
me responding in a negative way, I can be like

02:09:57.609 --> 02:10:00.210
kind of envision the angels got there with me

02:10:00.210 --> 02:10:02.710
and be and being different than how I would be.

02:10:03.170 --> 02:10:06.250
And I fail still, you know, it's still occasionally

02:10:06.250 --> 02:10:08.390
it's going to happen. But in those victories,

02:10:08.489 --> 02:10:11.149
when you don't fail and someone's having a crap

02:10:11.149 --> 02:10:13.289
day and they were a jerk to you and you're like,

02:10:13.350 --> 02:10:16.039
hey, man, you're right. Instead of responding

02:10:16.039 --> 02:10:18.260
back like, oh, yeah? Well, let me tell you something,

02:10:18.380 --> 02:10:20.279
you know? Like, hey, man, it's cool. It's cool.

02:10:20.340 --> 02:10:22.819
Relax. Like, I get it. I get it. I've had those

02:10:22.819 --> 02:10:25.239
kind of days, man. Like, you good? You know,

02:10:25.239 --> 02:10:27.079
is there anything I can do for you? I mean, it

02:10:27.079 --> 02:10:29.180
just disarms, right? It just takes the whole

02:10:29.180 --> 02:10:31.640
situation and they're like, you know, don't know

02:10:31.640 --> 02:10:33.960
what to do with it. And you genuinely, you can't

02:10:33.960 --> 02:10:36.039
fake it. You have to genuinely care. And that's

02:10:36.039 --> 02:10:38.819
part of that prayer, you know? And God live,

02:10:38.960 --> 02:10:41.840
please live through me. Let me glorify you. Let

02:10:41.840 --> 02:10:44.250
me serve you. You know, and now it's back to

02:10:44.250 --> 02:10:46.069
that life of service. It's no longer about me.

02:10:46.729 --> 02:10:51.109
My dad, he passed from cancer four or five, well,

02:10:51.310 --> 02:10:54.270
before I retired. So four or five years ago.

02:10:55.029 --> 02:10:58.130
And, you know, he wasn't a flawless human. None

02:10:58.130 --> 02:11:00.050
of us are. Definitely made a share of mistakes,

02:11:00.270 --> 02:11:02.649
but especially late in his life, he had a very

02:11:02.649 --> 02:11:05.250
profound walk with God. And he taught me something

02:11:05.250 --> 02:11:07.069
that I still, I write certain things on the top

02:11:07.069 --> 02:11:10.229
of my daily to -do list. And one of them is straight

02:11:10.229 --> 02:11:13.600
from my dad is it's not about you. You know what

02:11:13.600 --> 02:11:17.239
I mean? Like, look to serve others, look to help

02:11:17.239 --> 02:11:19.479
others. How many times in life, like you hear

02:11:19.479 --> 02:11:22.720
a child, I want this toy. I want this bike. I

02:11:22.720 --> 02:11:25.260
want to go to McDonald's. You know, I, I, I,

02:11:25.340 --> 02:11:29.159
me, me, me. And like, as we grow, you know, I

02:11:29.159 --> 02:11:31.739
think the ultimate maturity, I'm not there. But

02:11:31.739 --> 02:11:34.460
it's like walking with Christ in a way that says,

02:11:34.500 --> 02:11:37.840
it's not about me. I don't care. I want to serve

02:11:37.840 --> 02:11:41.119
God and glorify God. And however you want to

02:11:41.119 --> 02:11:43.529
use me, use me. And it just takes to me a lot

02:11:43.529 --> 02:11:45.930
of stress off because it's like I don't have

02:11:45.930 --> 02:11:48.850
to I don't have to be this phenomenal, perfect

02:11:48.850 --> 02:11:51.449
person because I'm not. And I all I have to do

02:11:51.449 --> 02:11:54.029
is just be obedient. You know, the other ones

02:11:54.029 --> 02:11:55.890
hold fast. You know, that sailor tattoo on the

02:11:55.890 --> 02:11:58.029
knuckles. And I mean, literally just like don't

02:11:58.029 --> 02:12:02.810
quit and body, mind, spirit. I stole that one

02:12:02.810 --> 02:12:04.989
from Chasing Mavericks, you know, as a surfer.

02:12:05.010 --> 02:12:07.109
I don't know if you're familiar. Yeah, but I

02:12:07.109 --> 02:12:10.140
love that movie, you know, and. And, you know,

02:12:10.140 --> 02:12:11.979
he tells him, like, you know, if you're going

02:12:11.979 --> 02:12:13.800
to go tackle these monster waves, it comes back

02:12:13.800 --> 02:12:15.979
to you talking about performance and being able

02:12:15.979 --> 02:12:18.119
to do incredible things. And if you're going

02:12:18.119 --> 02:12:20.399
to go tackle Mavericks and ride one of the biggest,

02:12:20.479 --> 02:12:22.479
most fiercest, most deadly waves on the planet,

02:12:22.600 --> 02:12:24.520
you know what I mean? You can't just physically

02:12:24.520 --> 02:12:27.960
train for it. Psychologically, spiritually, you

02:12:27.960 --> 02:12:29.819
know, body, mind, spirit, you know, you have

02:12:29.819 --> 02:12:31.920
to, you need to have your fears in order, so

02:12:31.920 --> 02:12:33.920
to speak, so that when you approach this, you're

02:12:33.920 --> 02:12:36.859
centered, you're clean. You're dialed in and

02:12:36.859 --> 02:12:39.380
you're not like worried about fear. You've already

02:12:39.380 --> 02:12:41.539
addressed that. You know, you're going to high

02:12:41.539 --> 02:12:44.500
perform. And the other one I got from my wife

02:12:44.500 --> 02:12:47.600
and it's from the Bible is day 41. And throughout

02:12:47.600 --> 02:12:51.500
all the scripture, mostly because God's people

02:12:51.500 --> 02:12:53.560
ignored him. And I love that too. I read this

02:12:53.560 --> 02:12:55.000
stuff and I'm like, these people are so stupid.

02:12:55.060 --> 02:12:57.039
But I'm like, yeah, I've done the same thing.

02:12:57.380 --> 02:13:00.579
You know, they ignored him. They went against

02:13:00.579 --> 02:13:02.699
his word. They're like, nah, we're going to do

02:13:02.699 --> 02:13:07.090
it our own way. They struggled for sometimes

02:13:07.090 --> 02:13:11.630
40 years or 40 days or, but often throughout,

02:13:11.710 --> 02:13:16.770
but it's not 100%, but oftentimes day 41, you

02:13:16.770 --> 02:13:18.789
know what I mean? Like as it got closer, they

02:13:18.789 --> 02:13:20.789
were realizing, yeah, you know, we, this isn't

02:13:20.789 --> 02:13:23.869
working. Our way is kind of dumb. We're, we're

02:13:23.869 --> 02:13:25.289
just struggling. We're wandering in the wilderness.

02:13:26.350 --> 02:13:30.109
They got real. God always welcomes you back.

02:13:30.510 --> 02:13:33.210
And like day 41 is coming. You know what I mean?

02:13:33.229 --> 02:13:34.890
Like no matter what's going on in your struggles,

02:13:35.029 --> 02:13:38.229
whether it be something dumb on the boat or finances

02:13:38.229 --> 02:13:41.710
or whatever, you're struggling. But like, it

02:13:41.710 --> 02:13:44.449
may not be a literal 41 number, but day 41 is

02:13:44.449 --> 02:13:46.970
coming. Like that better moment, that redemption

02:13:46.970 --> 02:13:52.189
that like, wow, I needed this. You know, here

02:13:52.189 --> 02:13:54.250
on the boat, I've been struggling. We lost an

02:13:54.250 --> 02:13:56.630
engine about a year and a half ago. It's a major

02:13:56.630 --> 02:13:59.989
problem. Had to haul a 2200 pound block out of

02:13:59.989 --> 02:14:02.859
the boat. get that all replaced, get it back

02:14:02.859 --> 02:14:05.880
in. A lot of high angle and truck work went into

02:14:05.880 --> 02:14:08.800
that. Get that back in. And then we took a lightning

02:14:08.800 --> 02:14:10.579
strike, which fried all our electronics and our

02:14:10.579 --> 02:14:13.039
controls. Had to do with insurance, got all that

02:14:13.039 --> 02:14:14.680
replaced. And then the transmission behind the

02:14:14.680 --> 02:14:17.020
new motor died. So we had to get the new transmission,

02:14:17.260 --> 02:14:19.119
which is now sitting downstairs and not installed

02:14:19.119 --> 02:14:21.060
yet. I'm working on that later. But as far as

02:14:21.060 --> 02:14:23.239
all the electronics, I had done that job six

02:14:23.239 --> 02:14:26.100
years ago from a former lightning strike. Six

02:14:26.100 --> 02:14:28.199
years later, we have a new one. And I was so

02:14:28.199 --> 02:14:29.420
not looking forward to doing that because it

02:14:29.420 --> 02:14:33.210
was such a challenge. And I really had to stretch

02:14:33.210 --> 02:14:35.710
myself to do it the first time. And I don't have

02:14:35.710 --> 02:14:37.949
them. I'm not a retired cardiologist. I can't

02:14:37.949 --> 02:14:40.029
just pay someone to do this. You know, I have

02:14:40.029 --> 02:14:43.609
to learn it. You got to do it. And I wasn't looking

02:14:43.609 --> 02:14:45.829
forward to it. The job was killing me. I was,

02:14:45.829 --> 02:14:47.449
you know, like I was putting it off. And when

02:14:47.449 --> 02:14:49.409
I would work on it, I was mad. I wasn't getting

02:14:49.409 --> 02:14:51.090
anywhere. And it was this albatross that I just

02:14:51.090 --> 02:14:52.850
wasn't solving. It was a problem that I was just

02:14:52.850 --> 02:14:55.029
like, it was getting ahead of me. And out of

02:14:55.029 --> 02:14:57.989
the blue Monday, I was like, I'm getting up,

02:14:58.050 --> 02:15:00.949
drinking my coffee. I'm not going to get a workout

02:15:00.949 --> 02:15:03.770
in. I'm going to spend a 10, 12 hour, 14. I don't

02:15:03.770 --> 02:15:06.949
care. I am going to focus on this problem. And

02:15:06.949 --> 02:15:09.069
I wrote on my calendar for the whole week from

02:15:09.069 --> 02:15:12.090
Monday of this week through Friday minus this

02:15:12.090 --> 02:15:14.949
time with you. That's all I care about. Like

02:15:14.949 --> 02:15:17.289
it has to get done by Friday. Enough's enough,

02:15:17.470 --> 02:15:20.829
right? Like get it done. And Monday on the calendar

02:15:20.829 --> 02:15:24.210
of out of, you know, my, you know, I'm old. The

02:15:24.210 --> 02:15:28.770
paper desk calendars was day 41 of the year.

02:15:29.500 --> 02:15:31.739
And I put like a 10, eight, 10 hour day at it.

02:15:32.859 --> 02:15:35.119
And I'm usually my brain imagines is worst case

02:15:35.119 --> 02:15:37.319
scenario. Like, ah, this is going to go wrong.

02:15:37.380 --> 02:15:38.720
Well, you're going to put it together and still

02:15:38.720 --> 02:15:39.920
you're gonna have all these components that fail.

02:15:40.340 --> 02:15:42.399
Like this new engine you, you, you bought, it's

02:15:42.399 --> 02:15:43.819
probably going to fail. You know what I mean?

02:15:43.840 --> 02:15:44.840
What are you going to do when it falls apart?

02:15:45.180 --> 02:15:47.039
Like my brain always imagines worst case scenario.

02:15:47.119 --> 02:15:48.359
I think a lot of that comes from our background

02:15:48.359 --> 02:15:51.220
and our job. We're trained, you know, that worst

02:15:51.220 --> 02:15:54.579
case scenario plan on it, you know? And, um,

02:15:54.579 --> 02:15:59.590
but I, I threw a full day at it Monday. and fired

02:15:59.590 --> 02:16:01.449
everything up expecting like multiple failures

02:16:01.449 --> 02:16:02.949
and like it's going to take the rest of the week

02:16:02.949 --> 02:16:08.149
and james 99 of it worked like flawlessly i have

02:16:08.149 --> 02:16:10.250
like one or two little hiccups to chase and it

02:16:10.250 --> 02:16:13.010
just blew my mind because i'm like wow i'm like

02:16:13.010 --> 02:16:14.989
and it happened to be day 41 it was really kind

02:16:14.989 --> 02:16:16.369
of cool i was like all right i kind of looked

02:16:16.369 --> 02:16:19.229
up like i get it you know what i mean like i

02:16:19.229 --> 02:16:25.319
i do feel a difference you know i'm just I'm

02:16:25.319 --> 02:16:27.439
flawed. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going

02:16:27.439 --> 02:16:29.699
to mess up. I'm not an example of any sort. But

02:16:29.699 --> 02:16:34.979
me personally, I feel a major, major difference

02:16:34.979 --> 02:16:38.360
by coming back to what I knew to be true as a

02:16:38.360 --> 02:16:42.979
young man and coming back to truths. And it's

02:16:42.979 --> 02:16:45.739
a fight. It's a fight every day. I still catch

02:16:45.739 --> 02:16:48.500
myself getting selfish, getting annoyed, getting

02:16:48.500 --> 02:16:50.659
like, what? You know, getting in traffic like

02:16:50.659 --> 02:16:52.299
somebody pisses me off and sometimes the finger

02:16:52.299 --> 02:16:55.819
still comes out, you know? But it's like, for

02:16:55.819 --> 02:16:58.879
the most part, I'm feeling a difference and I'm

02:16:58.879 --> 02:17:03.500
feeling like a desire. It's not a chore. It's

02:17:03.500 --> 02:17:06.780
a desire to want to follow this meditation and

02:17:06.780 --> 02:17:13.680
this walk with God that I feel offers me my best

02:17:13.680 --> 02:17:19.180
hope at a joyful future. I've had this conversation

02:17:19.180 --> 02:17:21.239
with a couple of people recently. It just kind

02:17:21.239 --> 02:17:24.940
of struck me. when I look at my very, very kind

02:17:24.940 --> 02:17:26.860
of surface level understanding the Bible, because

02:17:26.860 --> 02:17:28.840
I was exposed to Christianity when I was young,

02:17:28.940 --> 02:17:33.159
that I can't help but feel like the Old Testament

02:17:33.159 --> 02:17:36.299
is like, hey, here's how we used to do it. And

02:17:36.299 --> 02:17:38.520
then the New Testament is like, but here's when

02:17:38.520 --> 02:17:40.420
we started doing, you know, kindness, compassion,

02:17:40.799 --> 02:17:43.920
service, you know, so if you want to avoid all

02:17:43.920 --> 02:17:47.040
the pain and heartache, then just skip to the

02:17:47.040 --> 02:17:50.500
new part. And I honestly feel in my heart, in

02:17:50.500 --> 02:17:54.559
the fire service, And even, you know, in the

02:17:54.559 --> 02:17:56.139
Western world, because I'm not going to I don't

02:17:56.139 --> 02:17:59.000
think every country is dealing with the divisiveness

02:17:59.000 --> 02:18:02.120
and the lack of purpose that we are in some of

02:18:02.120 --> 02:18:04.860
the more fortunate developed countries. But I

02:18:04.860 --> 02:18:08.159
feel like we're at the dawn of day 41. I do everything.

02:18:08.260 --> 02:18:09.860
There's everyone's going to doom and gloom and

02:18:09.860 --> 02:18:11.319
it's going to be civil war. We're going to kill

02:18:11.319 --> 02:18:13.440
each other. I disagree. I think there's about

02:18:13.440 --> 02:18:16.899
to be an awakening where the majority that was

02:18:16.899 --> 02:18:19.399
a kind of silent majority in the fire service

02:18:19.399 --> 02:18:22.459
or in. in the states or in europe we're kind

02:18:22.459 --> 02:18:24.100
of waking up and going well wait a second there's

02:18:24.100 --> 02:18:26.680
a common denominator here there's we always seem

02:18:26.680 --> 02:18:28.840
to get a few people that fuck it up for everyone

02:18:28.840 --> 02:18:31.159
else they want all the power they want all the

02:18:31.159 --> 02:18:34.489
money They set us against each other on whatever

02:18:34.489 --> 02:18:38.670
the pigeonholes are. But I feel like there's

02:18:38.670 --> 02:18:40.170
an awakening. I think there's an awakening in

02:18:40.170 --> 02:18:42.030
the fire service, understanding the work week,

02:18:42.069 --> 02:18:45.649
and needing to address mental health, needing

02:18:45.649 --> 02:18:47.989
fitness standards, all these things. The way

02:18:47.989 --> 02:18:50.190
we've been doing it, Old Testament fire service

02:18:50.190 --> 02:18:52.870
isn't working. I think we really need to lean

02:18:52.870 --> 02:18:55.950
in. Because as you said, we are good people.

02:18:56.030 --> 02:18:58.370
I've always said that I adore the fire service,

02:18:58.409 --> 02:19:00.959
which is why I still do what I do. I'm fighting

02:19:00.959 --> 02:19:02.739
for, you know, an environment that I'll never

02:19:02.739 --> 02:19:06.180
get to experience myself. But they are beautiful

02:19:06.180 --> 02:19:08.559
human beings that toe the line and say, I want

02:19:08.559 --> 02:19:10.020
to be a cop. I want to be a firefighter. I want

02:19:10.020 --> 02:19:11.700
to be a paramedic. I want to be a dispatcher.

02:19:11.700 --> 02:19:13.219
I want to work in corrections. You know, the

02:19:13.219 --> 02:19:15.000
people are doing for the right reason, which

02:19:15.000 --> 02:19:18.600
is most of them. So they deserve the environment

02:19:18.600 --> 02:19:21.680
that allows them to be, you know, even greater

02:19:21.680 --> 02:19:24.159
versions of themselves. So it's funny that you

02:19:24.159 --> 02:19:27.000
use that analogy because I am an incurable, angry

02:19:27.000 --> 02:19:30.479
optimist. I feel like in our profession, we're

02:19:30.479 --> 02:19:32.940
almost there. And I feel like even in the country,

02:19:33.000 --> 02:19:35.079
and this is why I'm working on this TV show.

02:19:35.159 --> 02:19:37.479
I want that to be part of this thing. And again,

02:19:37.600 --> 02:19:40.159
that's what I, my conversations with God, I am

02:19:40.159 --> 02:19:42.760
a conduit as well. And I want to create something

02:19:42.760 --> 02:19:46.180
that's going to sow seeds in households all over

02:19:46.180 --> 02:19:49.319
the world and let everyone begin their kind of

02:19:49.319 --> 02:19:52.139
healing journey that way. But, you know, I couldn't

02:19:52.139 --> 02:19:55.000
agree more. I love that kind of day 41 mentality.

02:19:55.219 --> 02:19:58.649
And I personally feel like. We're kind of like

02:19:58.649 --> 02:20:03.309
day 39 and it's actually going to be beautiful

02:20:03.309 --> 02:20:05.770
when we get over the horizon. That's awesome.

02:20:06.270 --> 02:20:09.030
Yeah. Yeah, that's great, man. That's awesome.

02:20:10.430 --> 02:20:12.850
So I want to throw some closing questions at

02:20:12.850 --> 02:20:15.530
you before I let you go. The first one I love

02:20:15.530 --> 02:20:18.209
to ask, is there a book or other books that you

02:20:18.209 --> 02:20:20.709
love to recommend? It can be related to our discussion

02:20:20.709 --> 02:20:24.979
today or completely unrelated. Here's where I'm

02:20:24.979 --> 02:20:27.479
going to make a confession that if you could

02:20:27.479 --> 02:20:28.979
reach to the screen and punch me, you might would.

02:20:29.200 --> 02:20:31.500
I haven't read your book yet. I want to. Oh,

02:20:31.520 --> 02:20:34.459
no, no. That's not a loaded question. I know

02:20:34.459 --> 02:20:38.920
that's not what you were fishing for. I just

02:20:38.920 --> 02:20:40.399
have been feeling guilty this whole time. So

02:20:40.399 --> 02:20:43.559
it was going to come out at some point. I've

02:20:43.559 --> 02:20:44.819
actually already even looked it up on Amazon.

02:20:44.979 --> 02:20:50.170
So, you know, I know where to get it. And honestly,

02:20:50.370 --> 02:20:52.549
I used to read a lot more than I do these days

02:20:52.549 --> 02:20:58.049
as far as other books. And I've just been so

02:20:58.049 --> 02:20:59.909
busy. When I retired, people said, oh, you're

02:20:59.909 --> 02:21:01.170
going to be bored. I'm like, no, I live on a

02:21:01.170 --> 02:21:04.569
42 -year -old trawler. Broke, maybe. Not bored.

02:21:04.909 --> 02:21:06.329
You know, there's like 10 different things I

02:21:06.329 --> 02:21:09.229
should be doing every day besides workouts. And

02:21:09.229 --> 02:21:11.129
in retirement, that's been awesome. I still try

02:21:11.129 --> 02:21:13.569
to get in all my workouts and stay very disciplined

02:21:13.569 --> 02:21:16.059
with that. I'm still surfing. And then, of course,

02:21:16.059 --> 02:21:17.680
everything I need to be working on in this book

02:21:17.680 --> 02:21:20.459
that keeps me very, very engaged. I still get

02:21:20.459 --> 02:21:23.700
up at like 630, 645 every morning and, you know,

02:21:23.719 --> 02:21:26.379
put in a full day, you know, so I'm feeling very

02:21:26.379 --> 02:21:28.700
fulfilled. I'm not having a lot of time to read,

02:21:28.760 --> 02:21:32.219
to be honest with you. But a book that meant

02:21:32.219 --> 02:21:36.340
a lot to me a ways back was by Jocko Willink.

02:21:37.680 --> 02:21:39.760
I can't remember which one because he's written

02:21:39.760 --> 02:21:42.979
a couple. I think it was Leadership Something.

02:21:45.000 --> 02:21:47.340
I like studying different leaders and their styles

02:21:47.340 --> 02:21:49.420
and their thoughts on it. Was it extreme ownership?

02:21:50.280 --> 02:21:52.200
Extreme ownership. That's exactly what it was.

02:21:52.299 --> 02:21:56.079
Thank you. There's a line in it that I'll always

02:21:56.079 --> 02:21:59.819
remember. It helps to serve towards a mentality

02:21:59.819 --> 02:22:06.500
of personal discipline. It's simple, but it's

02:22:06.500 --> 02:22:09.600
not easy. It's just that one line. At first,

02:22:09.600 --> 02:22:10.819
you're like, okay, whatever. That's a little

02:22:10.819 --> 02:22:13.930
riddle. Who cares? But he framed it up with like

02:22:13.930 --> 02:22:15.889
everyone knows what they need to do to be healthy,

02:22:16.010 --> 02:22:19.950
eat better, exercise. It's simple, but it's not

02:22:19.950 --> 02:22:22.610
easy. You know, like everyone knows, you know,

02:22:22.629 --> 02:22:25.329
what they need to do to like on an operations

02:22:25.329 --> 02:22:27.489
plan when he was a Navy SEAL. You know, like

02:22:27.489 --> 02:22:30.370
we need to go in, you know, do this, avoid this,

02:22:30.489 --> 02:22:32.350
make sure this person doesn't see us, kill that

02:22:32.350 --> 02:22:35.010
guy, extract this person and get out. You know,

02:22:35.010 --> 02:22:38.030
it's like a four point plan, you know, and it's

02:22:38.030 --> 02:22:41.110
and it's pretty simple. But it's not easy. You

02:22:41.110 --> 02:22:43.049
know, getting in and executing it is going to

02:22:43.049 --> 02:22:45.909
be a whole nother level. And, you know, he broke

02:22:45.909 --> 02:22:49.430
down a lot of ownership, you know, as a leader,

02:22:49.510 --> 02:22:53.469
which I really valued. It annoys me a lot when

02:22:53.469 --> 02:22:55.610
people point fingers and, oh, no, no, it wasn't

02:22:55.610 --> 02:22:58.569
my fault. It was I try personally like to own

02:22:58.569 --> 02:23:01.170
it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, no, that

02:23:01.170 --> 02:23:04.350
was me. Not proud of it. But yeah, that was that

02:23:04.350 --> 02:23:07.129
was on me. I really enjoyed that book because

02:23:07.129 --> 02:23:10.239
just the way he owns things. Obviously, he's

02:23:10.239 --> 02:23:14.979
a phenomenal leader and a heck of a human. But

02:23:14.979 --> 02:23:17.799
I really like that line. It's simple. It's not

02:23:17.799 --> 02:23:21.139
easy. I know I need to get up in time to get

02:23:21.139 --> 02:23:22.500
everything I need to get done in the day plus

02:23:22.500 --> 02:23:25.920
my workout. But when that alarm goes off, oh,

02:23:25.959 --> 02:23:28.260
it's really easy to hit snooze. You know what

02:23:28.260 --> 02:23:30.579
I mean? So it's simple to set it the night before.

02:23:31.520 --> 02:23:34.239
It's just not easy when it goes off to obey it.

02:23:34.360 --> 02:23:36.819
You know what I mean? I don't know. I really

02:23:36.819 --> 02:23:40.010
liked that book. And, uh, just from a, that perspective,

02:23:40.129 --> 02:23:43.629
but, um, you know, I guess the, probably the

02:23:43.629 --> 02:23:44.950
other one I've read prior to that was green eggs

02:23:44.950 --> 02:23:46.770
and ham. It's been a minute. So I need to, I

02:23:46.770 --> 02:23:49.829
need to brush off. I need to brush off the, uh,

02:23:50.469 --> 02:23:53.030
uh, the illiteracy, uh, that I'm, you know, I

02:23:53.030 --> 02:23:54.989
need to get back in the books for sure. Well,

02:23:55.010 --> 02:23:57.350
Dr. Seuss was a genius too. So another great

02:23:57.350 --> 02:24:02.430
book. What about television films and documentaries?

02:24:02.569 --> 02:24:06.389
Any of those that you love? Um, Really enjoying

02:24:06.389 --> 02:24:08.450
a show that we've recently gotten into every

02:24:08.450 --> 02:24:10.870
night. And it's awesome because there's like

02:24:10.870 --> 02:24:13.170
a trillion seasons of it. I mean, you know, like

02:24:13.170 --> 02:24:16.229
12 or 14. And so we're able to watch like two,

02:24:16.270 --> 02:24:17.629
three episodes a night, never run out of anything

02:24:17.629 --> 02:24:21.450
to watch. Call Alone on History Channel. And

02:24:21.450 --> 02:24:23.270
it's like these survivalists that they put out

02:24:23.270 --> 02:24:25.969
in the woods and competing to who can stay the

02:24:25.969 --> 02:24:27.530
longest. And they put them in these really just

02:24:27.530 --> 02:24:29.729
harsh environments. And they come and bring like

02:24:29.729 --> 02:24:31.409
10 items. And so they basically have to get all

02:24:31.409 --> 02:24:32.969
their own food and build their own shelter and

02:24:32.969 --> 02:24:35.600
figure it out, right? And I've been enjoying

02:24:35.600 --> 02:24:38.579
that one because one, I like watching how people

02:24:38.579 --> 02:24:40.479
manage stress and hardship and how they think.

02:24:40.819 --> 02:24:43.000
You know, two, it's fun to judge. Sarah and I

02:24:43.000 --> 02:24:44.120
will be sitting there after dinner eating like

02:24:44.120 --> 02:24:46.260
a nutter butter and somebody's like frozen to

02:24:46.260 --> 02:24:48.879
death. Somebody's frozen to death, like eating

02:24:48.879 --> 02:24:50.440
the guts out of a squirrel and they're quitting.

02:24:50.500 --> 02:24:52.719
And we're like, you bitch. You know, so it's

02:24:52.719 --> 02:24:55.959
kind of fun, like from your comfort of your own

02:24:55.959 --> 02:24:57.860
couch, you know, to make fun of, you know what

02:24:57.860 --> 02:25:00.920
I mean? Like in a fun way, but also like, it

02:25:00.920 --> 02:25:02.819
makes you grateful. You know, you come away from

02:25:02.819 --> 02:25:06.250
it and you're like, You turn the tap on and run

02:25:06.250 --> 02:25:08.829
a glass of water. These people have to go like

02:25:08.829 --> 02:25:12.190
get the seawater, get the water, you know, if

02:25:12.190 --> 02:25:15.590
they can find a freshwater source, boil it, you

02:25:15.590 --> 02:25:17.750
know, build a fire, use their sticks. You know

02:25:17.750 --> 02:25:19.649
what I mean? Do all the like primitive stuff.

02:25:20.389 --> 02:25:23.989
It takes them 45 minutes to an hour and a half,

02:25:24.170 --> 02:25:27.649
you know, to make something drinkable. And even

02:25:27.649 --> 02:25:30.750
then it's this very finite supply, you know,

02:25:30.750 --> 02:25:33.239
and. And how much weight they're losing and their

02:25:33.239 --> 02:25:35.600
calorie burn, everything they're doing. And they

02:25:35.600 --> 02:25:38.520
have to figure offset on getting food. And they're

02:25:38.520 --> 02:25:41.239
eating an ant like, I know this looks disgusting,

02:25:41.379 --> 02:25:44.239
but it's protein. Or they're gutting a squirrel

02:25:44.239 --> 02:25:46.739
and they're excited because it's not ants. And

02:25:46.739 --> 02:25:50.600
you're like, wow, I'm pretty blessed. You know

02:25:50.600 --> 02:25:52.920
what I mean? It frames it up. Also frames up

02:25:52.920 --> 02:25:54.940
how much stuff we don't need. You know what I

02:25:54.940 --> 02:25:57.739
mean? So I've been enjoying that. We're mentalists.

02:25:57.760 --> 02:25:59.700
We live on a boat. But we still have so much

02:25:59.700 --> 02:26:02.079
crap we don't need. We can still do so much better

02:26:02.079 --> 02:26:04.600
on getting rid of stuff. And we're working on

02:26:04.600 --> 02:26:07.959
that. I like that show. And then I've always

02:26:07.959 --> 02:26:11.799
just been a fan of really any movie or show like

02:26:11.799 --> 02:26:14.739
the Star Trek. I never watched the shows growing

02:26:14.739 --> 02:26:17.180
up with the movies, you know, with like the more

02:26:17.180 --> 02:26:20.280
water runs that are less nerdy. But, you know,

02:26:20.280 --> 02:26:21.899
because it's just like there's this frame up

02:26:21.899 --> 02:26:25.559
of like a rogue kind of officer leader, you know,

02:26:25.559 --> 02:26:28.559
Chris Pratt or whatever, with like impossible

02:26:28.559 --> 02:26:31.399
odds and rising above it. you know, and like,

02:26:31.399 --> 02:26:33.159
and winning, you know, like you said, you're

02:26:33.159 --> 02:26:36.719
like, we, I like to sometimes, I don't know,

02:26:36.739 --> 02:26:38.299
enjoy the win. You know, we didn't get them in

02:26:38.299 --> 02:26:40.799
our career a lot, you know? So you watch those

02:26:40.799 --> 02:26:42.459
movies for a disconnect. Cause you're like, this

02:26:42.459 --> 02:26:44.559
is this really challenging, unwinnable scenario

02:26:44.559 --> 02:26:46.840
that, you know, they're going to win, you know?

02:26:46.840 --> 02:26:48.540
And, but it's just how they're going to do it

02:26:48.540 --> 02:26:49.879
and whatever else. So yeah, those are enjoyable

02:26:49.879 --> 02:26:51.819
and fun and they sort of take some stress off.

02:26:54.120 --> 02:26:58.659
But yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, next question.

02:26:58.739 --> 02:27:00.600
Is there a person that you'd recommend to come

02:27:00.600 --> 02:27:03.760
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first

02:27:03.760 --> 02:27:05.819
responders, military, and associated professions

02:27:05.819 --> 02:27:09.840
of the world? That's a tough one because I have

02:27:09.840 --> 02:27:13.180
a high respect for a lot of the folks we worked

02:27:13.180 --> 02:27:19.920
with. And I could probably name five or eight.

02:27:20.040 --> 02:27:22.860
I don't know if they'd be willing, and I don't

02:27:22.860 --> 02:27:24.840
know if they would really be a good fit or not.

02:27:26.350 --> 02:27:28.110
I'm probably going to be your longest podcast

02:27:28.110 --> 02:27:32.329
because I'm long winded. And, you know, a guy

02:27:32.329 --> 02:27:34.090
like that, one of the ones I worked with were

02:27:34.090 --> 02:27:37.549
Mel Palmer. He'd been a Marine in Afghanistan,

02:27:37.729 --> 02:27:41.290
in Iraq. You know what I mean? Like as he had

02:27:41.290 --> 02:27:44.329
moved up to a higher level of leadership there.

02:27:44.450 --> 02:27:48.229
I don't know his exact rank, but he had lost.

02:27:48.709 --> 02:27:50.350
And I don't know if he's willing to talk about

02:27:50.350 --> 02:27:52.489
it, if he's ready to talk about it. But I know

02:27:52.489 --> 02:27:56.000
he had lost. You know, on that battlefield. Right.

02:27:56.860 --> 02:28:00.799
And that trauma and survival and drama. And then,

02:28:00.819 --> 02:28:02.540
you know, as you know, coming home and being

02:28:02.540 --> 02:28:07.239
a fireman, you know, and he. I have he's he's

02:28:07.239 --> 02:28:09.639
a high level guy. You know, he takes his job

02:28:09.639 --> 02:28:12.040
seriously, knows his job. He doesn't accept.

02:28:14.879 --> 02:28:17.059
Anything less, you know, than exactly the way

02:28:17.059 --> 02:28:19.780
it should be. But I don't know if he'd be comfortable

02:28:19.780 --> 02:28:21.219
or willing. So I don't mean to put anyone under

02:28:21.219 --> 02:28:25.479
the bus. You know, but he's got a lot of background

02:28:25.479 --> 02:28:28.860
and experience with a lot of, I think, that others

02:28:28.860 --> 02:28:32.360
might relate to. There's just so many, you know

02:28:32.360 --> 02:28:39.299
what I mean? At my last station, both Carl Torshawn

02:28:39.299 --> 02:28:43.940
and Jen, why am I not thinking of Jen's last

02:28:43.940 --> 02:28:46.239
name? She was my engineer. She was awesome. She

02:28:46.239 --> 02:28:48.379
probably kept me from getting fired like 10 or

02:28:48.379 --> 02:28:49.860
12 different times because she'd just look at

02:28:49.860 --> 02:28:53.209
me like, don't say it, you know? Jen Taylor.

02:28:53.549 --> 02:28:56.969
I knew it would come to me. I don't know if either

02:28:56.969 --> 02:28:58.809
one of them would be willing to talk, you know,

02:28:58.809 --> 02:29:01.569
of things they've been through. I know she was

02:29:01.569 --> 02:29:04.870
there for, Oh God, I'm going to feel real bad

02:29:04.870 --> 02:29:07.790
now. He was a guy on B shift. I was a shift at

02:29:07.790 --> 02:29:10.969
85, a really great guy. And I just feel like

02:29:10.969 --> 02:29:12.629
a complete ass for not thinking of his name at

02:29:12.629 --> 02:29:15.610
the top of my head, but he had gotten very dark

02:29:15.610 --> 02:29:18.329
and very depressed and Jen noticed it. And Jen

02:29:18.329 --> 02:29:21.510
went and talked with him. and reached out to

02:29:21.510 --> 02:29:23.090
him and it's not comfortable you know it's not

02:29:23.090 --> 02:29:26.329
easy to do that and she alex that's what alex

02:29:26.329 --> 02:29:29.489
uh i can't think of his last name i think it's

02:29:29.489 --> 02:29:34.129
alex um he credits her to saving his life you

02:29:34.129 --> 02:29:37.129
know and jen's been through a lot and she's she's

02:29:37.129 --> 02:29:39.850
a really good person uh like i said she's one

02:29:39.850 --> 02:29:42.069
that uh probably saved my career towards the

02:29:42.069 --> 02:29:43.909
end by just looking at me like don't do it you

02:29:43.909 --> 02:29:50.350
know but uh um so i don't know Maybe her, Torshawn's

02:29:50.350 --> 02:29:52.329
just somebody I just respect. He's just brilliant.

02:29:52.629 --> 02:29:56.069
You know, he's somebody that's just one of the

02:29:56.069 --> 02:30:00.709
smartest humans I've ever come across. I mean,

02:30:00.729 --> 02:30:02.170
you could almost just keep going because there's

02:30:02.170 --> 02:30:05.370
so many great people we worked with that you

02:30:05.370 --> 02:30:08.450
know of personal hardship they've endured. And

02:30:08.450 --> 02:30:12.010
here they are, you know, still showing up, still

02:30:12.010 --> 02:30:14.649
making it work one way or the other. And a lot

02:30:14.649 --> 02:30:16.290
of those people are in my prayers every day because.

02:30:17.360 --> 02:30:19.559
I don't know how well I hid it. I don't know

02:30:19.559 --> 02:30:21.440
if I hid it well or not, but I was hiding it

02:30:21.440 --> 02:30:24.520
for a long time. And some of these people that

02:30:24.520 --> 02:30:27.100
are going through things, I, I pray for them,

02:30:27.100 --> 02:30:28.760
you know, that if they're hiding it and I know

02:30:28.760 --> 02:30:30.520
it might, and to them, it might sound so weird

02:30:30.520 --> 02:30:33.020
coming from me. Like, dude, Rob, we knew you,

02:30:33.040 --> 02:30:36.239
you were a wild man. Like, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

02:30:36.319 --> 02:30:39.819
You're not wrong. But still I pray for him. Cause

02:30:39.819 --> 02:30:42.239
you know, I just want, I want the best from him.

02:30:42.239 --> 02:30:44.260
I want peace. That's what I want for anyone.

02:30:44.299 --> 02:30:46.700
I want peace. and their soul i want them to be

02:30:46.700 --> 02:30:50.420
able to look in the mirror and smile back a little

02:30:50.420 --> 02:30:55.120
bit and feel like you know it's okay i'm gonna

02:30:55.120 --> 02:30:57.920
i'm gonna be okay and and kind of feel a little

02:30:57.920 --> 02:31:01.159
bit like and i'm okay like i'm not this terrible

02:31:01.159 --> 02:31:04.620
pos like i'm i'm okay you know that's that's

02:31:04.620 --> 02:31:07.360
all i want for anyone and uh it was funny enough

02:31:07.360 --> 02:31:11.239
on that show alone season two or whatever three

02:31:11.239 --> 02:31:14.059
i don't know A former operator, I think he was

02:31:14.059 --> 02:31:18.540
a Ranger sniper, was a contestant on it and taught

02:31:18.540 --> 02:31:21.239
evasion and all this. And so they're really putting

02:31:21.239 --> 02:31:22.899
themselves out there because they're going on

02:31:22.899 --> 02:31:25.459
this show to compete, being filmed. They film

02:31:25.459 --> 02:31:28.860
themselves. So if you fail, to me, that's a big

02:31:28.860 --> 02:31:31.219
step to put yourself out there like that. But

02:31:31.219 --> 02:31:34.159
on day 22, he talked about how it didn't make

02:31:34.159 --> 02:31:37.979
sense to most to do such this calorie burn. When

02:31:37.979 --> 02:31:39.760
food is scarce and, you know, you're trying to

02:31:39.760 --> 02:31:42.219
survive and outlast everyone else, every action

02:31:42.219 --> 02:31:44.500
you take needs to have a why and a reason for

02:31:44.500 --> 02:31:46.459
the burn. You know, is it building your shelter?

02:31:46.579 --> 02:31:48.840
Well, that's a good one. You know, is it going

02:31:48.840 --> 02:31:50.860
on a small hunt? That's a good one, especially

02:31:50.860 --> 02:31:53.260
if it produces food. But there was a mountain

02:31:53.260 --> 02:31:56.280
behind him and he decided on day 22 to climb

02:31:56.280 --> 02:32:00.500
it. And he did it for his own, you know, mental.

02:32:00.559 --> 02:32:02.440
He said, like, you can get bored out here and

02:32:02.440 --> 02:32:04.520
go crazy. And a lot of contestants, that's what

02:32:04.520 --> 02:32:05.780
takes them out. They take themselves out of the

02:32:05.780 --> 02:32:07.809
game because they miss their family. And they

02:32:07.809 --> 02:32:10.110
lose it because there's no one to talk to. And

02:32:10.110 --> 02:32:11.489
they just, they get inside their head so bad,

02:32:11.549 --> 02:32:13.809
they just lose it. And he's like, I'm doing this

02:32:13.809 --> 02:32:17.049
because I've lost so many brothers. And he had

02:32:17.049 --> 02:32:19.750
done some suicide counseling and some stuff in

02:32:19.750 --> 02:32:21.670
the military and so many brothers and sisters

02:32:21.670 --> 02:32:24.270
and so many others. And he's like, I'm going

02:32:24.270 --> 02:32:26.209
to climb that mountain today. I don't care if

02:32:26.209 --> 02:32:28.549
it takes me out of the competition. It's there.

02:32:28.969 --> 02:32:31.790
It needs to be done. And I want to prove that

02:32:31.790 --> 02:32:34.229
I can do it and then prove to others, like, no

02:32:34.229 --> 02:32:36.969
matter how hard it is you can make the climb

02:32:36.969 --> 02:32:40.090
and james i was watching that and like i know

02:32:40.090 --> 02:32:41.790
most people watching it sarah's watching it she's

02:32:41.790 --> 02:32:43.430
like this guy's an idiot you know what i mean

02:32:43.430 --> 02:32:45.969
like that's gonna be a huge calorie burn and

02:32:45.969 --> 02:32:47.590
you might be getting two three hundred calories

02:32:47.590 --> 02:32:50.510
a day you know on this in this environment and

02:32:50.510 --> 02:32:53.270
you're gonna go expend like this is not tactically

02:32:53.270 --> 02:32:55.989
wise and you know it wasn't but i had tears in

02:32:55.989 --> 02:32:58.549
my eyes when he made the top you know because

02:32:58.549 --> 02:33:01.530
he was just like 22 a day that's when i did the

02:33:01.530 --> 02:33:04.010
math i was like that's over 8 000 you know it

02:33:04.010 --> 02:33:08.440
just Man, you know, it just breaks my heart.

02:33:08.479 --> 02:33:11.819
I just want others to experience peace, especially

02:33:11.819 --> 02:33:14.860
those that have experienced nothing but trauma,

02:33:15.079 --> 02:33:19.020
war, blood, death. Man, we've done our time,

02:33:19.100 --> 02:33:22.739
you know, and I don't want you, you should never

02:33:22.739 --> 02:33:25.139
feel. I had people pick on me sometimes for 25

02:33:25.139 --> 02:33:29.840
and we were joking, but James, that day you talked

02:33:29.840 --> 02:33:34.260
about most people. And I know you know what I

02:33:34.260 --> 02:33:35.659
mean. This is what you do for a living these

02:33:35.659 --> 02:33:39.299
days. Don't experience a tenth of that one day.

02:33:40.100 --> 02:33:43.360
And if they did, they would need psychological

02:33:43.360 --> 02:33:46.219
counseling for that one moment in their life.

02:33:46.659 --> 02:33:50.979
It comes as blind to us that occasionally if

02:33:50.979 --> 02:33:53.379
I'm out with my wife or before my father -in

02:33:53.379 --> 02:33:59.139
-law passed, we were somewhere and we were actually

02:33:59.139 --> 02:34:00.540
on one of my fishing boats. We were in the port.

02:34:00.639 --> 02:34:03.549
This was way, way, way back. and there was these

02:34:03.549 --> 02:34:05.549
guys fishing on a boat, and I was kind of looking

02:34:05.549 --> 02:34:07.950
at them. We had the engine cover up, and they're

02:34:07.950 --> 02:34:10.469
using starting ether, and I'm like, ooh. I'm

02:34:10.469 --> 02:34:12.909
like, you know, they're in the water on this

02:34:12.909 --> 02:34:15.329
boat in Port Canaveral, and I'm watching them

02:34:15.329 --> 02:34:17.389
kind of like try to spree start this motor. I'm

02:34:17.389 --> 02:34:19.889
like, if they mess this up, they got nowhere

02:34:19.889 --> 02:34:21.569
to go. You know, if that goes boom, they're going

02:34:21.569 --> 02:34:25.350
in the water. And sure as shit, you know, boom,

02:34:25.430 --> 02:34:28.989
fireball. I'm just like, really? And one of them

02:34:28.989 --> 02:34:30.430
got a little burned on his arm, and the other

02:34:30.430 --> 02:34:31.510
one went to the front of the boat. One jumped

02:34:31.510 --> 02:34:33.579
in the water right away. So, you know, I just

02:34:33.579 --> 02:34:35.239
pulled the boat over there and I told Sarah,

02:34:35.379 --> 02:34:38.420
get on the radio, hail the Coast Guard. I taught

02:34:38.420 --> 02:34:39.920
a radio protocol, so she knew how to do that

02:34:39.920 --> 02:34:42.020
on boat. Hail the Coast Guard, tell them there's

02:34:42.020 --> 02:34:43.920
a vessel on fire. There's two people in the water.

02:34:44.479 --> 02:34:46.520
And I got close to him, got a ring out, got one

02:34:46.520 --> 02:34:49.459
in, got in the water, got the other one in, packaged

02:34:49.459 --> 02:34:51.180
up the guy's burn a little bit. When the Coast

02:34:51.180 --> 02:34:52.680
Guard showed up to my boat, he was like, you're

02:34:52.680 --> 02:34:55.440
a fireman? Like, yeah, because it wasn't. He

02:34:55.440 --> 02:34:57.040
was like kind of shaking his head because the

02:34:57.040 --> 02:34:58.479
rookie wanted to package up the burn. It was

02:34:58.479 --> 02:35:03.549
already kind of pretty well sterile. you know,

02:35:03.549 --> 02:35:05.389
we went to dinner afterwards, you know, we put

02:35:05.389 --> 02:35:07.690
the boat away and we went out to dinner and I'm

02:35:07.690 --> 02:35:10.350
just kind of like wanting to talk about, I don't

02:35:10.350 --> 02:35:12.649
know who the Red Sox are playing next week or,

02:35:12.670 --> 02:35:14.809
you know, whatever. Right. And my father -in

02:35:14.809 --> 02:35:16.290
-law is like sitting there with his mouth open.

02:35:16.969 --> 02:35:20.329
I was like, what? And he goes, what just happened?

02:35:20.750 --> 02:35:22.989
You know, his mind was just like, he couldn't,

02:35:22.989 --> 02:35:27.950
he was just like, that boat just blew up in front

02:35:27.950 --> 02:35:30.639
of us. And two guys went in the water and we

02:35:30.639 --> 02:35:34.100
pulled them out and addressed injuries and got

02:35:34.100 --> 02:35:35.200
them turned over to the Coast Guard. And I'm

02:35:35.200 --> 02:35:37.059
like, I was thinking like, yeah, that was like

02:35:37.059 --> 02:35:38.819
two hours ago. What are you talking about? You

02:35:38.819 --> 02:35:41.299
know what I mean? The stuff we see, and that

02:35:41.299 --> 02:35:44.159
one had a very positive outcome, but the stuff

02:35:44.159 --> 02:35:48.840
we see, it can't be underestimated. You know

02:35:48.840 --> 02:35:50.520
what I mean? And I know you're the counselor,

02:35:50.659 --> 02:35:53.260
but I don't ever want you to ever let the enemy

02:35:53.260 --> 02:35:56.040
come in and try to attack you or discount your

02:35:56.040 --> 02:36:00.899
years of service. No. Like you did it, you know,

02:36:00.899 --> 02:36:02.680
and you were a real medic, not just some paper

02:36:02.680 --> 02:36:04.920
tiger like me at the end of my career. You know

02:36:04.920 --> 02:36:08.760
what I mean? Like you, you did it and you did

02:36:08.760 --> 02:36:12.280
things that most can't do without being destroyed.

02:36:12.879 --> 02:36:16.379
That if people tried to do, they just couldn't

02:36:16.379 --> 02:36:18.799
even fathom. And now here you are on the other

02:36:18.799 --> 02:36:21.360
side of it, trying to help and make a difference

02:36:21.360 --> 02:36:22.959
and make a change. You know what I mean? Like

02:36:22.959 --> 02:36:26.440
don't ever, ever for a second discount yourself

02:36:26.440 --> 02:36:29.860
or feel. Anything less than the best. Yeah, no,

02:36:29.940 --> 02:36:32.459
I appreciate that. I really do. And I don't,

02:36:32.459 --> 02:36:35.040
and the way I've kind of framed it in my mind

02:36:35.040 --> 02:36:37.739
is even though there's that loss of identity

02:36:37.739 --> 02:36:40.709
initially. running the calls because i did i

02:36:40.709 --> 02:36:42.790
never even wanted to promote like i missed that

02:36:42.790 --> 02:36:45.469
sometimes i loved it do you miss that you know

02:36:45.469 --> 02:36:47.370
loading the hose after a good fire or cleaning

02:36:47.370 --> 02:36:49.809
sores or you know just simply wiping all the

02:36:49.809 --> 02:36:52.350
blood off the back as nasty as it is and you

02:36:52.350 --> 02:36:54.069
know knowing that you got because i mean i said

02:36:54.069 --> 02:36:56.430
about my black cloud a lot of people pre -code

02:36:56.430 --> 02:36:58.969
we did save it was just the if you went to cardiac

02:36:58.969 --> 02:37:00.809
arrest and james was your medic you were fucked

02:37:00.809 --> 02:37:04.809
but i think you said about the angel i seem to

02:37:04.809 --> 02:37:06.950
have the reaper with me the whole time but uh

02:37:07.530 --> 02:37:09.989
No, but joking apart, but I realized it was the

02:37:09.989 --> 02:37:12.129
same mission. And going back to what you said

02:37:12.129 --> 02:37:14.750
about most of us put on the uniform because we

02:37:14.750 --> 02:37:17.030
are kind people and we do want to make a difference.

02:37:17.129 --> 02:37:19.010
And there's this psychology and some other things

02:37:19.010 --> 02:37:22.309
behind it as well, which can be an absolute reinforcing

02:37:22.309 --> 02:37:25.629
strength if we see it with the right lens. But

02:37:25.629 --> 02:37:29.030
there's more than one way to make the world better.

02:37:29.110 --> 02:37:31.530
And you don't have to wear the uniform or keep

02:37:31.530 --> 02:37:33.770
wearing uniform. So what I realized is, you know,

02:37:33.790 --> 02:37:35.909
as a force multiplier to take a special forces

02:37:35.909 --> 02:37:38.870
term. If you can help first responders, imagine

02:37:38.870 --> 02:37:40.930
how many lives they're then going to go on and

02:37:40.930 --> 02:37:42.809
save in their career. And you've helped be a

02:37:42.809 --> 02:37:45.870
part of that. Now, you know, some people promote

02:37:45.870 --> 02:37:48.090
and some people teach at fire colleges. And this

02:37:48.090 --> 02:37:50.329
was, I guess, you know, the way that I was supposed

02:37:50.329 --> 02:37:53.530
to transition from the fire service. So I don't

02:37:53.530 --> 02:37:56.489
look back negatively with the 14 years. I look

02:37:56.489 --> 02:37:59.510
back fondly at it. It's your calling, brother.

02:37:59.590 --> 02:38:04.469
You do something and you do it so well that it's

02:38:04.469 --> 02:38:07.750
your calling. And you're, you're awesome at it.

02:38:08.250 --> 02:38:11.370
You know, I miss, it's funny. I don't really

02:38:11.370 --> 02:38:13.469
miss, I think it was, this is a Carl Longism,

02:38:13.469 --> 02:38:16.409
but when he was asked, you know, about his retirement

02:38:16.409 --> 02:38:20.969
a little while after he said, I, how did he put

02:38:20.969 --> 02:38:24.670
it? I want to try to get it right. I miss the,

02:38:24.809 --> 02:38:27.690
I don't miss the circus. I miss the clowns. You

02:38:27.690 --> 02:38:29.049
know what I mean? Yeah. And it's like, I don't

02:38:29.049 --> 02:38:30.790
miss the circus of Orange County. I don't miss

02:38:30.790 --> 02:38:32.909
a lot. And you know, look, it's easy to bag on

02:38:32.909 --> 02:38:35.299
them and they still are easy to bag on. But there

02:38:35.299 --> 02:38:37.139
was still a lot of great people even higher up.

02:38:37.180 --> 02:38:38.780
And all in all, there's no such thing as a perfect

02:38:38.780 --> 02:38:41.260
agency. And they served me well. It was a great

02:38:41.260 --> 02:38:44.299
career. I'm thankful for it. And there's still

02:38:44.299 --> 02:38:46.719
some very good people there, even kind of, well,

02:38:46.780 --> 02:38:50.840
I won't go too high. But, you know, the thing

02:38:50.840 --> 02:38:53.920
is, it's like I miss the brotherhood and the

02:38:53.920 --> 02:38:56.479
sisterhood. I miss the trash talk. Nobody in

02:38:56.479 --> 02:38:58.440
society seems to really be able to handle our

02:38:58.440 --> 02:39:00.700
level of smart assery. You know what I mean?

02:39:02.350 --> 02:39:04.389
And if you talk in public to people the way we

02:39:04.389 --> 02:39:05.649
talk to each other as firemen, you're usually

02:39:05.649 --> 02:39:08.049
going to get in a fight. You're either going

02:39:08.049 --> 02:39:09.610
to get in a fight or no one's going to want to

02:39:09.610 --> 02:39:12.209
ever talk to you again. So I miss some of that

02:39:12.209 --> 02:39:17.389
level camaraderie. And more than anything, I

02:39:17.389 --> 02:39:19.969
miss jumping on the rig, throwing the headsets

02:39:19.969 --> 02:39:22.889
en route to a legitimate fire. You know what

02:39:22.889 --> 02:39:26.290
I mean? And just knowing the crew that I got,

02:39:26.430 --> 02:39:28.629
the people that I got, game on. Just feeling

02:39:28.629 --> 02:39:30.969
confident and like, let's do it. you know, just

02:39:30.969 --> 02:39:33.129
that excitement. And then I missed the call on

02:39:33.129 --> 02:39:36.170
the, on the way back on the headsets, all the

02:39:36.170 --> 02:39:37.629
laughter and the bullshit. And they're like,

02:39:37.649 --> 02:39:40.069
you know, somebody on the headset, like what

02:39:40.069 --> 02:39:42.370
was so and so thinking, did you see that? You

02:39:42.370 --> 02:39:44.329
know what I mean? And just all the, yeah, you

02:39:44.329 --> 02:39:47.510
know, for sure. I missed that. It took me like

02:39:47.510 --> 02:39:49.870
six or eight months after being retired before

02:39:49.870 --> 02:39:53.690
it hit me that I'm never gonna have a pair of

02:39:53.690 --> 02:39:57.329
boots sitting next to a rig again with a coat

02:39:57.329 --> 02:40:00.500
sitting on the, on the handle, you know? And

02:40:00.500 --> 02:40:02.620
a helmet on a dash. You know what I mean? Like

02:40:02.620 --> 02:40:05.739
I'm never going to be set up, ready to put it

02:40:05.739 --> 02:40:08.780
on, get to work. And it kind of made me a little

02:40:08.780 --> 02:40:10.940
sad. And my wife was like, you could volunteer.

02:40:11.079 --> 02:40:14.620
And I'm like, no. That's not being crazy now.

02:40:15.520 --> 02:40:17.979
Right. I'm like, sorry. Hats off to volunteers.

02:40:18.440 --> 02:40:22.219
You're doing this for free. Good for you. I honestly

02:40:22.219 --> 02:40:23.979
feel like, you know, I'm pretty young. We're

02:40:23.979 --> 02:40:25.840
retired. There's a bunch of things I could do.

02:40:26.500 --> 02:40:29.079
for money and for side business and things like

02:40:29.079 --> 02:40:31.239
that when it comes the time. And I'm not retired

02:40:31.239 --> 02:40:32.860
for good. I'm going to have to look at some other

02:40:32.860 --> 02:40:35.200
things and that's fine. But I have come to the

02:40:35.200 --> 02:40:38.559
full healthy acceptance. It won't be anything

02:40:38.559 --> 02:40:41.180
911 related. I don't want to work a dispatch.

02:40:41.739 --> 02:40:44.340
I don't want to go work for a small department

02:40:44.340 --> 02:40:48.459
somewhere. Like, I'm good. I don't want to feed

02:40:48.459 --> 02:40:51.379
any more of that. You know, I miss it to an extent.

02:40:51.459 --> 02:40:54.000
I love it. It was a blast. I was blessed to be

02:40:54.000 --> 02:40:56.510
there. um but i'm good it would not be good for

02:40:56.510 --> 02:41:00.790
me to go back um so you know literally like i

02:41:00.790 --> 02:41:03.209
my next job might be uh welcome to west marine

02:41:03.209 --> 02:41:06.350
yeah you know the bilge pumps are on aisle five

02:41:06.350 --> 02:41:10.569
you know i don't know well i think there's also

02:41:10.569 --> 02:41:12.729
you know when when you transition out of a career

02:41:12.729 --> 02:41:15.549
like this one of your missions is to also undo

02:41:15.549 --> 02:41:17.889
the damage especially in the era that we worked

02:41:17.889 --> 02:41:21.420
in so catching up on sleep maintaining your fitness,

02:41:21.520 --> 02:41:23.360
getting good blood work and all these things.

02:41:23.620 --> 02:41:26.020
So to put yourself back in the meat grinder after

02:41:26.020 --> 02:41:29.319
making it out, you know, that's that's you got

02:41:29.319 --> 02:41:31.940
to question those those choices. But what else

02:41:31.940 --> 02:41:34.360
can you do? And, you know, within that, how can

02:41:34.360 --> 02:41:35.979
you continue to serve? And I think that's just

02:41:35.979 --> 02:41:38.920
it. The transition. We don't do a very good job

02:41:38.920 --> 02:41:41.260
in the fire service. You know, most people do

02:41:41.260 --> 02:41:43.920
what. teach at the fire academy you know you're

02:41:43.920 --> 02:41:46.479
still kind of hanging on clinging for dear life

02:41:46.479 --> 02:41:48.680
to that identity and it's you know it has its

02:41:48.680 --> 02:41:50.879
purpose if you're an old salt and you got a lot

02:41:50.879 --> 02:41:53.159
to teach still then then brilliant but there

02:41:53.159 --> 02:41:55.340
are so many other ways that you can make the

02:41:55.340 --> 02:41:57.180
world a little bit better without killing yourself

02:41:57.180 --> 02:42:01.940
in the process yep all right well the last question

02:42:01.940 --> 02:42:03.639
before we make sure everyone knows where to find

02:42:03.639 --> 02:42:09.899
you what do you do to decompress i play guitar

02:42:10.639 --> 02:42:12.040
And believe it or not, I actually sing a little

02:42:12.040 --> 02:42:13.760
bit. And most of the time, the water doesn't

02:42:13.760 --> 02:42:18.920
shut off in the shower. I love music and I love,

02:42:19.000 --> 02:42:21.440
I play covers. I've written a few. They're not

02:42:21.440 --> 02:42:26.239
that great. But honestly, working out is huge

02:42:26.239 --> 02:42:28.879
for my mental health because I feel good. You

02:42:28.879 --> 02:42:30.739
know, I've gotten that burn, whether I go for

02:42:30.739 --> 02:42:33.360
a run or I go lift or, you know, I do a lot of

02:42:33.360 --> 02:42:35.000
calisthenics. Working out is huge for mental

02:42:35.000 --> 02:42:38.360
health. But decompress, really, I'd have to say

02:42:38.360 --> 02:42:44.860
I pick my guitar up. And I just play. I just

02:42:44.860 --> 02:42:48.360
play and sing. And I don't care that I'm in no

02:42:48.360 --> 02:42:50.200
danger of ever being discovered or making it.

02:42:51.540 --> 02:42:54.440
That's not what it's about. It's just about hitting

02:42:54.440 --> 02:42:56.319
that one part of a song where you can close your

02:42:56.319 --> 02:42:58.180
eyes because you actually know it well enough

02:42:58.180 --> 02:43:00.579
and you're not having to look at the music and

02:43:00.579 --> 02:43:02.719
breathe deep and try to actually sing that next

02:43:02.719 --> 02:43:06.659
part pretty okay. And to yourself, it feels good.

02:43:07.049 --> 02:43:08.870
it sounds good to your ears it's probably going

02:43:08.870 --> 02:43:10.829
to make a dog howl but it sounds good to you

02:43:10.829 --> 02:43:13.969
and and you feel good my wife hasn't divorced

02:43:13.969 --> 02:43:17.209
me over it yet and um you know it's honestly

02:43:17.209 --> 02:43:19.569
music would be one of my big ones the other is

02:43:19.569 --> 02:43:24.049
surfing um you know i grew up surfing uh and

02:43:24.049 --> 02:43:26.489
i still my wife and i went to costa rica this

02:43:26.489 --> 02:43:29.329
summer for our 20th even though we were on like

02:43:29.329 --> 02:43:32.850
year 22 for our 20th anniversary and um and for

02:43:32.850 --> 02:43:36.159
my 50th birthday and we had a connection with

02:43:36.159 --> 02:43:37.319
a friend who hooked us up with a pretty good

02:43:37.319 --> 02:43:39.420
deal. We almost just couldn't say no, and I'd

02:43:39.420 --> 02:43:42.780
always wanted to surf there. So I still get in

02:43:42.780 --> 02:43:44.280
the water. I'm kind of a weenie in the winter

02:43:44.280 --> 02:43:45.879
because it has to be really good for me to put

02:43:45.879 --> 02:43:48.879
on a wetsuit, and I have so much here I need

02:43:48.879 --> 02:43:52.219
to be doing. But, yeah, surfing's spiritual.

02:43:52.559 --> 02:43:56.040
You know, you're getting in the ocean with all

02:43:56.040 --> 02:43:59.319
the toothy critters and a lot of things way faster,

02:43:59.420 --> 02:44:01.770
stronger, and, you know. You're not the apex

02:44:01.770 --> 02:44:03.209
anymore. You know, you're, you're definitely

02:44:03.209 --> 02:44:06.069
not top of the food chain. You're a slow, you

02:44:06.069 --> 02:44:09.149
know, moving male air breathing mammal. And,

02:44:09.209 --> 02:44:12.430
um, you know, it, to me, it's, it's about having

02:44:12.430 --> 02:44:14.610
that respect of my environment and getting in

02:44:14.610 --> 02:44:18.069
it and, um, and then catching some waves, you

02:44:18.069 --> 02:44:19.329
know, and riding them. There's just something

02:44:19.329 --> 02:44:21.569
very pure. There's no boat pulling me. There's

02:44:21.569 --> 02:44:23.290
no, like, I have to get my timing. I have to

02:44:23.290 --> 02:44:25.430
feel it. You know, I have to be in sync. And

02:44:25.430 --> 02:44:29.309
if I'm a wreck, uh, mentally and, and, you know,

02:44:30.549 --> 02:44:33.149
I'm not going to have a good day surfing. My

02:44:33.149 --> 02:44:34.930
brain's just 27 different places. Same thing

02:44:34.930 --> 02:44:37.950
with playing guitar. If I'm mad, I can't pick

02:44:37.950 --> 02:44:40.250
the guitar up and be peaceful and creative. Like

02:44:40.250 --> 02:44:42.870
I just can't do it. I have to just kind of like

02:44:42.870 --> 02:44:46.629
almost calm down beforehand. But then if I've

02:44:46.629 --> 02:44:48.450
still got a little bit left over that I'm still

02:44:48.450 --> 02:44:50.370
kind of struggling with the music or the surfing

02:44:50.370 --> 02:44:53.329
really starts to speak to me and I start breathing

02:44:53.329 --> 02:44:56.309
different and I start going like, yeah, yeah.

02:44:58.209 --> 02:45:01.129
Love it. Yeah, I can relate. I'm not going to

02:45:01.129 --> 02:45:03.889
sign any record labels by any means, but I play

02:45:03.889 --> 02:45:07.010
guitar and piano just so I can sing along. We

02:45:07.010 --> 02:45:09.190
need to get together and play sometime, brother.

02:45:09.329 --> 02:45:11.010
There we go. We'll tell each other we sound amazing.

02:45:11.750 --> 02:45:16.250
Yeah, exactly. If you're ever over towards Cape

02:45:16.250 --> 02:45:18.270
Canaveral, I'm like three miles from the cruise

02:45:18.270 --> 02:45:21.250
ships. Okay. Please let me know. It'd be good

02:45:21.250 --> 02:45:22.889
just to have a drink or a dinner or whatever

02:45:22.889 --> 02:45:25.000
with you. Absolutely. Actually, we do. That's

02:45:25.000 --> 02:45:26.760
one of my favorite things to decompress is the

02:45:26.760 --> 02:45:28.920
cruises. Just because, I mean, as a Florida resident,

02:45:29.139 --> 02:45:31.639
the right time you can get them so cheap. And

02:45:31.639 --> 02:45:34.620
the moment they lose Florida on the horizon,

02:45:34.840 --> 02:45:37.059
none of the cell phones work anymore. And I love

02:45:37.059 --> 02:45:40.200
it. I know, isn't it great? All right. Well,

02:45:40.540 --> 02:45:42.760
for people listening, if they want to reach out

02:45:42.760 --> 02:45:44.639
to you, where are the best places online to do

02:45:44.639 --> 02:45:49.000
that? Well, I'm on Facebook under my name, under

02:45:49.000 --> 02:45:52.010
Rob Moore. The boat, I put some things on there

02:45:52.010 --> 02:45:55.590
under MV, as in like Mike Victor, Lunacy, Motor

02:45:55.590 --> 02:45:59.850
Vessel Lunacy. My phone number, if anyone needed

02:45:59.850 --> 02:46:02.809
to talk, I mean, you know, especially, you know,

02:46:02.829 --> 02:46:04.930
I mean it. I want to be there for anyone is 321

02:46:04.930 --> 02:46:10.510
-624 -1907. You know, that's it. As we get traveling,

02:46:10.530 --> 02:46:13.690
we're hoping to get traveling this summer. I'm

02:46:13.690 --> 02:46:15.030
going to keep the Facebook page with the boat

02:46:15.030 --> 02:46:17.469
page kind of updated with some adventures. And

02:46:17.469 --> 02:46:21.059
there's even an app. that uh tracks ships like

02:46:21.059 --> 02:46:24.280
under their ais number and we have one we have

02:46:24.280 --> 02:46:26.959
like a commercial number so um if somebody were

02:46:26.959 --> 02:46:28.799
that wanting to be that way about it they could

02:46:28.799 --> 02:46:31.260
uh i'd give them our vessel name and they could

02:46:31.260 --> 02:46:32.879
look up on their phone with that app and be like

02:46:32.879 --> 02:46:36.680
oh today they're in north carolina or chesapeake

02:46:36.680 --> 02:46:41.680
bay or you know st thomas i don't know brilliant

02:46:41.680 --> 02:46:45.090
well I want to say thank you so much. I say this

02:46:45.090 --> 02:46:48.129
a lot. When people come on here and they talk

02:46:48.129 --> 02:46:50.969
about some of the darkest traumas, some of the

02:46:50.969 --> 02:46:53.469
darkest times that they had, there's obviously

02:46:53.469 --> 02:46:55.569
an element of kind of ripping the Band -Aid off

02:46:55.569 --> 02:46:58.389
and opening the wound again. But as you alluded

02:46:58.389 --> 02:47:01.110
to, knowing how many people this is going to

02:47:01.110 --> 02:47:03.709
resonate with, especially knowing your personality

02:47:03.709 --> 02:47:07.229
in Orange County, you were one of the ones that

02:47:07.229 --> 02:47:09.450
people label as, oh, that's the last person I

02:47:09.450 --> 02:47:12.649
would think would do insert thing here. More

02:47:12.649 --> 02:47:14.389
often than not, a lot of those people are the

02:47:14.389 --> 02:47:15.889
ones that are struggling the most. And early

02:47:15.889 --> 02:47:19.350
on in the podcast, I shit you not, almost every

02:47:19.350 --> 02:47:21.590
person that reached out was the shaved head,

02:47:21.690 --> 02:47:24.709
tattooed, muscular dude. Like, you know, the

02:47:24.709 --> 02:47:28.329
air quotes last person. So there's so much value

02:47:28.329 --> 02:47:30.790
to this courageous vulnerability that you've

02:47:30.790 --> 02:47:33.190
given us today. So I want to thank you so much,

02:47:33.209 --> 02:47:35.229
not only for that, but for being so generous

02:47:35.229 --> 02:47:37.170
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield

02:47:37.170 --> 02:47:40.860
podcast today. brother thank you much please

02:47:40.860 --> 02:47:42.680
stay in touch like i said we'll do a concert

02:47:42.680 --> 02:47:44.200
or a lunch or something one of these minutes